Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9122

 1                          Tuesday, 13th March 2001 2                          [Open session]

 3                          --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m.

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Please be

 6    seated.

 7            Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical

 8    booth, the interpreters, the Registry, counsel for the Prosecution,

 9    counsel for the Defence.  Before beginning, I should like to give the

10    floor to Mr. Jovan Simic.  There seems to be a problem with Mr. Prcac.

11            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Yes,

12    we do have a problem.  Mr. Prcac fell ill yesterday.  As you can see, he

13    is absent from the courtroom.  May I explain briefly what happened.

14            He felt very unwell but he wasn't taken to hospital immediately.

15    They had to wait until the Krnojelac trial ended.  Then he was taken to

16    the Tribunal, kept in the garage for about 15 minutes and then transferred

17    to the hospital, where he stayed until about 10.00 p.m., upon which he was

18    returned to the Detention Unit, advised to rest and go to sleep.

19            I must note with great regret that the ruling of this Trial

20    Chamber is not being respected.  We have discussed this matter

21    repeatedly.  You have given certain recommendations regarding this

22    problem.  Ms. Brenda Hollis, the former Prosecutor, agreed that she had

23    nothing against Mr. Prcac enjoying the same treatment as all the other

24    detainees, but for some reasons which we are unaware of, this did not

25    happen.

Page 9123

 1            We did write a letter to the Registry and to the President of this

 2    Tribunal, Mr. Jorda.  We received no reply so we don't know what's

 3    happening.  So this seems to be a vicious circle.  Mr. Prcac is an elderly

 4    man; he is a sick man.  He cannot endure the treatment he's being given.

 5    I really don't know who to blame, but this kind of treatment is certainly

 6    worsening his medical condition.

 7            We have two problems here.  First of all, we cannot prepare for

 8    the Defence properly with our defendant being ill; and secondly, if this

 9    continues, we shall have to suspend the continuation of the hearings.

10            As for today, we agree that we continue with the hearings, but the

11    plan of this team had been for Mr. Prcac to hear the cross-examination of

12    Mr. Radic, and unless his condition improves, I will not be able to agree

13    that the cross-examination of Mr. Radic be conducted in the absence of

14    Mr. Prcac.

15            I appeal to Your Honours once again, because I don't understand

16    why four defendants can walk around, can talk, can enjoy recreation

17    together, whereas Mr. Prcac cannot; that they can be transported together,

18    whereas Mr. Prcac has to wait two hours for the transport.  He has high

19    blood pressure.  He is a man who suffers from various ailments.  And out

20    of professional ethics, I have to caution this Trial Chamber that we are

21    heading in a direction that could have tragic consequences.  Thank you,

22    Your Honour.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Susan Somers.

24            MS. SOMERS:  Your Honour, this is the first that I have heard of

25    today, and I would like to express also the concern of the Prosecution if,

Page 9124

 1    in fact, there was a delay in medical attention being rendered to Mr.

 2    Prcac. This is irrespective of anything Ms. Hollis may have said.  If what

 3    Mr. Simic is indicating is the state of affairs, I think that this could

 4    have some consequences that we are very concerned about as well.  I would

 5    like to join in the concern and ask, perhaps, the Chamber to look into

 6    what the delay was in rendering the assistance.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much for

 8    your concern, Ms. Susan Somers.  But perhaps you could look into the

 9    matter in the Office of the Prosecutor, because, as Mr. Jovan Simic has

10    mentioned, we did raise the question here in the courtroom.  I see that

11    Judge Wald has a comment to make.

12            JUDGE WALD:  My only comment was that this did come up in your

13    predecessors, and in fact originally there was some question whether the

14    Prosecutor, originally, way back, had requested some kind of special

15    transportation arrangements for Mr. Prcac.  But then they retreated.  My

16    memory is that they retreated from that and agreed that he could be

17    treated like the others.  So I tend to think it's in the Registry's lap.

18            MS. SOMERS:  Your Honour, I completely agree, but my concern --

19            JUDGE WALD:  As long as you have already voiced very clearly here

20    in front of both of the counsel and us that to your knowledge you have no

21    objection to him being treated similarly.

22            MS. SOMERS:  We have no objection to assisting him physically as

23    he needs it.

24            JUDGE WALD:  Right.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

Page 9125

 1    Wald.  That was exactly what I was going to say to Ms. Susan Somers.

 2    There was at least one contradiction.  Ms. Susan Somers said that in this

 3    courtroom, and for the transcript, that they had nothing against Mr. Prcac

 4    being transported together with the other accused.  The problem is that

 5    the Prosecutor requested a restriction of communication, and as a result

 6    of those restrictions, all these problems arose.  I know that the Registry

 7    asked the Prosecutor in writing whether, yes or no, restrictions were

 8    needed, and the Office of the Prosecutor officially confirmed that, yes,

 9    they needed these restrictions.  So we have one position of the Prosecutor

10    here in the courtroom and another position of the Prosecutor outside the

11    courtroom.  I think that is the problem.

12            I know, Mr. Jovan Simic, and I personally in the next break will

13    address the matter.  I know that the President is informed of the issue,

14    we have already discussed it, and during the next break, I am going to

15    speak personally with the President and I'm going to ask the Registry -

16    maybe I should wait for Madam Registrar, for her to finish her

17    conversation - I'm going to ask the Registry to convey to the President of

18    the Tribunal this part of the transcript in which Mr. Jovan Simic stated

19    what he did, the position expressed by Ms. Susan Somers, and the entire

20    discussion that we have had so that the President may be in a position to

21    take a decision as quickly as possible.  That is as much as I can do.

22            As you know, it is not up to the Chamber to decide about such

23    matters.  It is up to the President.  As you know, the President was

24    seized of the matter a few weeks ago, and I think that we need to have a

25    decision very quickly.

Page 9126

 1            Ms. Susan Somers, do you have something to say?

 2            MS. SOMERS:  If the Court will permit me.  Mr. Saxon informed me

 3    that apparently Ms. Hollis, having been informed of the medical problems,

 4    had on the record - and I would try to locate it perhaps on the break -

 5    indicated that the position had in fact changed, and I certainly adhere to

 6    that.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.

 8            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It's not only for gentlemanly reasons

 9    that I'm trying to defend Ms. Hollis.  She's not here so that's only

10    fair.  Ms. Hollis' position was clear, that all five defendants need to

11    have the same treatment, and that is the problem.

12            If you remember, she requested the same measures for all five and

13    she couldn't understand why it was being applied to Prcac and not to the

14    other accused.  That was her position.  After that, she agreed that all of

15    them should have equal treatment.  I apologise for intervening at this

16    stage with this comment.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  So our

18    conclusion is that we must decide the matter as urgently as possible.

19    That is what we are able to do.  So I insist that the Registry convey to

20    the President an abstract of the transcript regarding this matter so he

21    can have more information at his disposal.

22            I also need to tell Mr. Stojanovic the dates designated for the

23    Defence of the accused Mr. Zigic.  So it is -- I'm talking of the week,

24    the week of the 26th of March, the week of the 9th of April, the week of

25    the 17th of April - I must say that these two weeks are a little shorter,

Page 9127

 1    as you know, because there are holidays in between - and the week of the

 2    23rd of April, which means that we will stick to the plan we announced for

 3    the week of the 7th of May for the Defence of Mr. Prcac, and also the week

 4    of the 14th of May for Mr. Prcac.  That is what we plan and that is what

 5    we will abide by for the moment.

 6            I think that we are now able to begin with our work proper, and

 7    for that purpose, I give the floor to Mr. Fila.

 8            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  The Defence

 9    calls Witness Vinka Andzic, and we have five witnesses planned for today.

10                          [The witness entered court]

11                          WITNESS:  VINKA ANDZIC

12                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Vinka Andzic.

14    Can you hear me?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are going to read the solemn

17    declaration given to you by the usher.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.  Please make

21    yourself as comfortable as possible.  Thank you very much for coming.

22    First you will be answering questions put to you by Mr. Fila.

23            Wait a moment, please, because I see there is a problem with one

24    of the court reporters.

25            I think that we can now proceed.  Mr. Fila, you have the floor.

Page 9128

 1                          Examined by Mr. Fila:

 2       Q.   [Interpretation] Mrs. Vinka Andzic, when were you born?

 3       A.   On the 6th of August, 1959.

 4       Q.   Where were you born?

 5       A.   In Prijedor.

 6       Q.   And by ethnicity, you are what?

 7       A.   A Serb.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 9            MR. SAXON:  I'm very sorry for interrupting, but I'm concerned,

10    looking at the transcript, that the witness has not taken the oath.  I

11    just wanted to check on that.  That's all.

12            THE COURT REPORTER:  It's there but it didn't appear on the

13    transcript because my computer was frozen.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you satisfied now?  The

15    English court reporter tells us that it is not in the transcript but it

16    will be entered.  It is in the memory and it will be entered

17    subsequently.

18            MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm satisfied.  Thank you,

19    I'm sorry.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any event, your remark has

21    been registered in the record.

22            So, Mr. Fila, please continue.

23            MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   What is your ethnicity and religion?

25       A.   I'm a Serb.

Page 9129

 1       Q.   And your occupation?

 2       A.   A dressmaker.

 3       Q.   Before the conflict began, where did you work and what did you do?

 4       A.   I worked in the Omarska mine as a cleaning lady.

 5       Q.   Are you married?  Do you have any children?

 6       A.   I am married.  I have a husband and two sons.

 7       Q.   Is the building in which you work the same building in which

 8    people would later be detained?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   While you were working before that event, did you use the water in

11    the mine, and how?

12       A.   Yes, we used the water normally, at the tap, industrial water that

13    we all used.

14       Q.   Was it water running from the taps?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And where did that water come from, from a well or from the town

17    water supply system?

18       A.   From a well.

19       Q.   Later on when this investigation centre was established, and after

20    that too, was that same water used?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   I should now like to ask you a few questions about a person called

23    Mladjo Radic.  Did you know him before the war, and how?

24       A.   Yes, I knew him as a quiet, nice man, a nice policeman.

25       Q.   Do you know when the investigations centre was established in

Page 9130

 1    Omarska?

 2       A.   I think it was at the beginning of May 1992.

 3       Q.   Who worked with you in the hygiene maintenance?

 4       A.   My colleague, Bosana Nisevic.

 5       Q.   How did you work?  What were your working hours?

 6       A.   From 7.00 a.m. until 7.00 p.m.

 7       Q.   What exactly did you clean?

 8       A.   We cleaned the upstairs floor where the inspectors were; also

 9    downstairs we cleaned a couple of times.  And then the detainees

10    themselves told us that it was not necessary, that they would do it, that

11    we just give them the products to clean with.

12       Q.   During the existence of the centre, did you see Mladjo Radic?  If

13    you did, where did you see him?

14       A.   I saw him in an office.  In front of that office there was a

15    corridor and the steps, and there was an archway, and he would patrol in

16    that area, he would walk around in that area.

17       Q.   What was he doing on that staircase?

18       A.   Nothing.  He just walked around there.  That was probably his

19    assignment, to work there.

20       Q.   Do you happen to know what kind of weapon he had at the time when

21    you saw him there?

22       A.   He had an automatic rifle.

23       Q.   Did you see him in an office as well, perhaps?

24       A.   Yes, I did.  In that particular office, he would sit there

25    occasionally, answer the phone, and that sort of thing.

Page 9131

 1       Q.   Your colleague and yourself cleaned all those premises?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   In those premises, would you come across traces of blood?

 4       A.   Yes, a little, occasionally.

 5       Q.   Were there rooms in which people worked, and who?

 6       A.   Yes, the inspectors.

 7       Q.   Did you sometimes hear screams and moans?

 8       A.   Yes, sometimes.

 9       Q.   Did you sometimes see any one of the detainees being hit?

10       A.   Yes, I did, occasionally, but not very often.

11       Q.   Were there any women on that floor?

12       A.   Yes, there were some women.

13       Q.   Were there several of them?

14       A.   I can't remember exactly how many.  Not many but there were some.

15       Q.   Did they clean those rooms as well?

16       A.   Yes, they cleaned their own rooms, but sometimes they helped us as

17    well because they were bored.

18       Q.   Where did they spend the night?

19       A.   They had two offices on the upper floor where they spent the

20    night.

21       Q.   And during the day, where were they?

22       A.   In the restaurant.

23       Q.   Did they have freedom to move around the building?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   And where did they move?

Page 9132

 1       A.   They could walk around.  Not exactly anywhere they wanted, but

 2    they could go outside, they could walk along the corridor, and so on.

 3       Q.   Were they able to use the bathroom?

 4       A.   Yes, they did use the bathroom.  Everything was okay.  They had

 5    showers and everything.  They washed their own clothes.

 6       Q.   Did they, perhaps, use a hotplate to cook on?

 7       A.   Yes, to make coffee or tea or to prepare some food for

 8    themselves.

 9       Q.   And where was that hotplate?

10       A.   They had one, and there was another one in the office in which

11    Mr. Radic was.

12       Q.   Do you know the largest room on that floor?  And if you do, what

13    was it called?

14       A.   Yes.  It was a hall, like a conference room.

15       Q.   During the day when the investigators were there --

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   -- were the guards there also and the soldiers?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Would it be right to say that there were a lot of people on that

20    floor at the time?

21       A.   Yes.  There were a certain number of people.

22       Q.   Were all the rooms occupied then?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Were you in touch with all those women?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9133

 1       Q.   Did any one of them complain to you about Mladjo Radic's

 2    behaviour?

 3       A.   No, no, on the contrary.  They praised him.  They said that he was

 4    a fine man, that he treated them correctly.

 5       Q.   Could you perhaps give us the names of some women who told you

 6    that?

 7       A.   There was [redacted] who said that, [redacted], I think that

 8    was her name, Jadranka Cigelj, and another woman who worked in the Red

 9    Roses Cafe.  Several of them.

10       Q.   This person, [redacted], did she have another name as well?

11       A.   I think she had another surname, [redacted], something like that.  I

12    can't remember.  But she worked with me for quite some time.

13       Q.   Did you personally see Mladjo Radic bring things to the women

14    detainees?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   What did he bring them?

17       A.   He brought them food, tins of food, bread, hygiene products,

18    whatever they asked for.

19       Q.   Did one of them celebrate her birthday?

20       A.   I don't know whether it was Cigelj or the other one, but I know

21    that one of them did celebrate her birthday.

22       Q.   My last question for you now.  Please let us focus on the lady

23    called [redacted].  Did it ever occur that Mladjo Radic sent

24    you to fetch her and you took her upstairs to this big room that you

25    called a conference room where Mladjo Radic was alone during the day, and

Page 9134

 1    then he raped her?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   And my last question.  How would you describe Mladjo Radic's

 4    behaviour towards the women and the other detainees, as far as you were

 5    able to see?

 6       A.   The behaviour of a nice man, a good man.  I really don't know how

 7    to explain it in any other way.  I think they should have been grateful to

 8    him for all he did for them.

 9            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  The Defence has

10    no further questions for this witness.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would any of the other Defence

12    counsel like to ask questions of this witness?  I see negative signs

13    coming from them.  No?

14            The Prosecution, the cross-examination will be conducted by

15    Mr. Saxon; is that right?  Yes, Mr. Saxon, you have the floor.

16            Mrs. Vinka Andzic, you will now be answering questions put to you

17    by the Prosecutor.

18            Your witness, Mr. Saxon.

19            MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20            Before I begin the cross-examination, I would just like to inform

21    the Trial Chamber of one thing.  While I was cross-examining Mr. Radovan

22    Medic yesterday, Judge Riad had some questions about Defence Exhibit

23    D16/3, and there were questions about that exhibit vis-à-vis some pronouns

24    and the English translation of those pronouns.  And I simply wanted to

25    inform the Trial Chamber that the Prosecution is resubmitting this

Page 9135

 1    document to the Translation Unit to see if there are errors in the

 2    translation.

 3                          Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:

 4       Q.   Ms. Andzic, you mentioned in your direct testimony that you used

 5    the water normally at the tap, "industrial water that we all used."  That

 6    was your testimony.  Were you using the same water that was used for the

 7    mining processes at the camp, the processing of iron ore and things like

 8    that, or were you using a different water system?

 9       A.   We used the same water.

10       Q.   Is it your testimony that you drank that water?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   The corridor, you talked about the large conference room that was

13    at the end of the corridor on the first floor of the administration

14    building; do you recall that?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Mr. Fila asked you a question as to whether you had ever brought

17    this woman with the last name of [redacted] to that conference room, and

18    then whether Mr. Radic had then raped her in that conference room, and

19    your answer was no.

20       A.   That's right.

21       Q.   My question for you is:  Did Mr. Radic, at any time, ask you to

22    bring -- before I finish my question, Your Honour, may we go into private

23    session, please.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Let us move into private

25    session.

Page 9136

 1                          [Private session]

 2    [redacted]

 3    [redacted]

 4    [redacted]

 5    [redacted]

 6    [redacted]

 7    [redacted]

 8    [redacted]

 9    [redacted]

10    [redacted]

11    [redacted]

12    [redacted]

13    [redacted]

14    [redacted]

15    [redacted]

16                          [Open session]

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in public session.

18            MR. SAXON:

19       Q.   Ms. Andzic, you knew some of the people detained at the Omarska

20    camp during that summer of 1992, didn't you?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Some of the detainees who you knew were killed at the Omarska

23    camp; is that right?  I remind you that you're under oath.

24       A.   Perhaps they were.  I don't know.

25       Q.   Well, do you know if any of the people that you knew were killed

Page 9137

 1    at the Omarska camp?

 2       A.   I couldn't see that.  How could I see that?

 3       Q.   You mentioned that you saw --

 4       A.   I couldn't walk around.

 5       Q.   You couldn't walk around.  Why not?

 6       A.   Well, because I had no time.  I was always busy working upstairs,

 7    on the floor above.

 8       Q.   You spent 12 hours straight, from 7.00 in the morning until 7.00

 9    in the evening, cleaning that first floor, when you just told us that the

10    female detainees there told you that after awhile they could clean it

11    themselves?  We haven't heard an answer.

12       A.   Yes, but I went to the Separacija for a time too, and we would do

13    some work there and then come back and do some work here.

14       Q.   When you left the administration building, did you see people

15    being mistreated at the Omarska camp?

16       A.   Perhaps I would see someone slap someone sometimes, things like

17    that.

18       Q.   You mentioned before that you heard the sounds of screams, moans

19    from the first floor, when you were working on the first floor of the

20    administration building.  You said that occasionally you saw detainees

21    being hit.  Did you report these incidents or did you just become used to

22    it and then ignore it?

23       A.   I didn't become used to it.  Quite simply, I did my work.  I

24    couldn't ...

25       Q.   You couldn't what?  Would you finish the thought, please?

Page 9138

 1       A.   I couldn't watch it.  I was doing my job, going about my business;

 2    they were doing their job.

 3       Q.   You had children at the time, didn't you, Mrs. Andzic, in 1992?

 4       A.   Yes, yes, I did.  One of my sons -- one son was -- well, I don't

 5    remember how old I was or he was.

 6       Q.   Mrs. Andzic, it was painful for you to watch the mistreatment of

 7    those prisoners, wasn't it?

 8       A.   As I said, I didn't watch it.  I went about my own business.  It

 9    wasn't up to me to watch it.  But if they were slapped or something,

10    that ...

11       Q.   When you finished your work for the day at the Omarska camp, after

12    spending those 12-hour days there, did you talk to anyone about what you

13    saw at the camp, the mistreatment of prisoners, seeing prisoners slapped,

14    hearing moans?

15       A.   Well, no, they just asked me whether they had enough food.

16       Q.   Did you see mistreatment -- I'll rephrase that.  You said that the

17    women could walk around freely and you said that they could go outside.

18    What did you mean by the term "outside"?

19       A.   To go outside in the meadow, to pick the various plants there and

20    show us what teas could be made from which plants, and that's what we

21    would do.  We would pick the flowers and plants and make the tea and drink

22    it.

23       Q.   Could you explain to us where exactly this meadow was with these

24    plants that you used to make tea?

25       A.   Roundabout the buildings.

Page 9139

 1       Q.   Roundabout which buildings?

 2       A.   Around the administration building, the workshop.

 3       Q.   So I'm just trying to understand you.  There was a meadow around

 4    the administration building and around the workshop.  By "the workshop,"

 5    do you mean the building that was also called the hangar?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   How big was this meadow?

 8       A.   Enormous.  Those meadows are enormous, enormous.  There's nothing

 9    there, just that part, and there's a petrol pump and the "white house."

10       Q.   Were there cows grazing on this meadow that was around the hangar

11    and the administration building?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And if I understand you correctly, you're saying that the female

14    detainees would walk out of the administration building and walk on this

15    meadow and pick plants; is that right?

16       A.   Yes, yes.

17       Q.   Did you ever go with them and ask to see the kind of plants that

18    they were picking?  Were you interested in that?

19       A.   Yes, yes, I was very interested in those plants, and I use those

20    same plants still, today.

21       Q.   And who did you go with to pick plants off of that meadow?

22       A.   With the women.  They didn't all go.  Several of them went.  I

23    don't actually know their names but ...

24       Q.   Can you recall the names of the women who went with you, any

25    names?

Page 9140

 1       A.   I don't know.  I can't remember.  A lot of time has gone by.

 2       Q.   When you were outside the administration building, going out to

 3    that meadow or meadows, did you see any detainees outside the

 4    administration building?

 5       A.   Yes.  They were in front, in front of the administration

 6    building.  Between the building and the hangar, that's where they were.

 7       Q.   Did you see any guards out there?

 8       A.   Yes, there were guards.

 9       Q.   How did the prisoners look who were out there, that you saw?

10       A.   Well, I don't know how to describe their appearance.

11       Q.   Can you try?

12       A.   Well, quite simply, some of them were standing; some of them were

13    sitting down; some of them were silent; some of them would smile, that

14    sort of thing.

15       Q.   How did the camp smell when you were outside the administration

16    building?

17       A.   Well, it was an unpleasant smell.

18       Q.   What do you mean by "unpleasant"?

19       A.   Well, I don't know how to explain it.

20       Q.   What did it smell of?  What were you smelling?

21       A.   Well, I can't remember, but all I know is it wasn't a fresh

22    smell.

23       Q.   Did --

24       A.   A strange smell.

25       Q.   Did any of the male detainees go with you and the female detainees

Page 9141

 1    out to the meadow to pick plants?

 2       A.   No.

 3            MR. SAXON:  Could I have the Trial Chamber's indulgence, please.

 4                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

 5            MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no further questions.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.

 7            Mr. Fila, any additional questions?

 8            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Just to clarify matters.

 9                          Re-examined by Mr. Fila:

10       Q.   There was a question about the water, whether the water went

11    through the taps and was then -- went into the glasses and drunk, before

12    the investigations centre was set up, during its duration and afterwards.

13       A.   We drank the water from the taps.  We poured it into glasses.

14       Q.   That is my first question.  My second question:  Could the

15    witness, on the model - I don't know why the model has been removed - but

16    could she indicate where the meadows were, the place where she saw Mladjo

17    Radic on guard?  If the Chamber so permits.

18       A.   I can show it, yes.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you think that is necessary,

20    Mr. Fila, to have the model put up in front of the witness?

21            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, I don't think it is at all

22    necessary, but just in view of the questions that Mr. Saxon has just

23    asked.  Otherwise, I don't think it's necessary.  But she can get up and

24    point to what she was describing.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  That would mean that we

Page 9142

 1    all have to rise.

 2            Mr. Usher, would it be possible to set up the model in front of

 3    the witness again, if you have somebody to help you perhaps?  Would that

 4    be at all possible?

 5            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could solve this question

 6    with a photograph.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.  We can place

 8    the photo on the ELMO.  Do you have a photo, Mr. Fila?

 9            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The number is Prosecution Exhibit

10    3/34.  Prosecution Exhibit 3/34.

11            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, I'm just trying to clarify

12    things.  The exhibit that Mr. Fila has referred to shows the Keraterm

13    camp, so I think we need to look at a different exhibit.

14            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I apologise.  In the list of documents,

15    it says the photograph of the Omarska camp, and that's the number that

16    stands next to that particular exhibit, according to the list that we

17    have.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, could you help

19    us, please?  Is there a photograph of the Omarska camp?

20            THE REGISTRAR:  It will take me a few seconds to locate it because

21    I need a number.  Otherwise, I have to check it manually.

22            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I apologise.  D26/1 is the entrance to

23    the administration building.  3/121, it says panorama of the Omarska

24    camp.  So the number is now 3/121.  Or, Mr. President, I am told that the

25    number is D30/1.  D30/1.

Page 9143

 1       Q.   Mrs. Vinka, take a look at this photograph, please, and indicate

 2    where the meadows that you talked about are located.

 3       A.   This here, here, over here.  We passed around here.  Roundabout,

 4    all the way around.  That's the house.

 5            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

 6    questions.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, the transcript says

 8    "here."  "Here" is not a very precise location so perhaps we ought to

 9    define it better, Mr. Fila.

10            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11       Q.   Witness, take a look at the photograph and describe exactly where

12    the meadows are, saying behind what, in front of what.

13       A.   This is the hangar.  This is the administration building.  This is

14    the field, pitch, playing ground.

15       Q.   Are the meadows around the hangar and the "white house," the

16    pista, opposite the pista; is that correct?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   On both sides of the hangar, a little further off; is that right?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   And behind the administration building?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And were you -- did you go flower picking on all those meadows?

23       A.   Yes.

24            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I apologise

25    for that extra time.

Page 9144

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 2            Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

 3            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 4                          Questioned by the Court:

 5            JUDGE RIAD:  Mrs. Andzic, good morning.  Can you hear me?

 6       A.   Good morning.  Yes.

 7            JUDGE RIAD:  I would like to understand something more in your

 8    testimony, which I followed very carefully.  You are Serb.  Were you

 9    detained in the Omarska camp or were you hired to clean or did you

10    volunteer to clean?  What was exactly your position?

11       A.   I worked there.  It was my duty to work there, to do that job,

12    regardless of whether I'm a Serb or not.  I never looked at what people's

13    nationalities were.

14            JUDGE RIAD:  That's not my question.  Were you detained or were

15    you a worker?

16       A.   A worker.

17            JUDGE RIAD:  You were a worker.  And you lived separately from the

18    other women.

19       A.   I didn't understand your question.

20            JUDGE RIAD:  You were living in a separate part from the other

21    women, or were you all the time with them and seeing how they eat, how

22    they feel, how they sleep?

23       A.   Well, I could see it some of the time, not all of the time.  When

24    I had time, I would chat to them and then go about my business.  Sometimes

25    they would come up to me to help me wash the windows, for example.  We

Page 9145

 1    would hang the curtains up and so on when we clean them.

 2            JUDGE RIAD:  Now, let us see how -- what was your relationship

 3    exactly with Mr. Radic?  Were you good friends or just you saw him here

 4    and there?

 5       A.   I would see him around.  I knew him since my childhood as a

 6    policeman.

 7            JUDGE RIAD:  Yes.  Were your family relations?  Were you

 8    acquainted to know his character and so on?

 9       A.   No.

10            JUDGE RIAD:  You saw him sometimes in the office, sitting and

11    answering the telephone.  Was this possible for anybody, any guard, to sit

12    in the office and answer the telephone, or only a few people who could sit

13    in the office and answer the telephone?

14       A.   Yes, they could.

15            JUDGE RIAD:  Anybody could sit and answer the telephone?

16       A.   They could, yes, anybody.

17            JUDGE RIAD:  Any guard?

18       A.   Anybody could, yes.

19            JUDGE RIAD:  So this office wasn't the office of the management or

20    anybody.  Just a public office.

21       A.   That's right, yes.

22            JUDGE RIAD:  Was also the investigation done in this office?

23       A.   No.

24            JUDGE RIAD:  The blood you saw sometimes on the walls.  Was it

25    also in this office?

Page 9146

 1       A.   No.

 2            JUDGE RIAD:  Now you mentioned that his behaviour to the ladies

 3    or to the detained women, he was a nice man.  What did you mean by that?

 4    Was he too nice to them?  Was he all the time with them, trying to be nice

 5    to them?

 6       A.   He was nice to everybody, to the men, to the women.  His conduct

 7    was proper and he helped anybody he could.

 8            JUDGE RIAD:  You mentioned that you did not lead this lady, [redacted]

 9    [redacted], to the conference room to see him.  As you have been around all

10    the time, were there any other -- did [redacted] go to him by her ownself, or

11    what?

12       A.   I don't know.  No, she didn't go, nor would he allow himself

13    something like that.  Nobody sent me off, and I don't think any person

14    would allow himself that.

15            JUDGE RIAD:  You spoke of the celebration of a birthday of

16    Jadranka Cigelj and you mentioned in your statement that the guards

17    brought drinks, cigarettes, and coffee.

18       A.   Yes.

19            JUDGE RIAD:  Who were these guards?  Were they the shifts of

20    Mr. Radic?  Were they the guards working under him?

21       A.   I can't remember.

22            JUDGE RIAD:  Thank you very much.

23       A.   I can't remember who they were because a lot of time has gone by

24    since then.

25            JUDGE RIAD:  Yes.  But who arranged that?  Who asked these guards

Page 9147

 1    to bring the cigarettes and so on?

 2       A.   Themselves, probably themselves.  When it was somebody's birthday,

 3    we would make a sort of collection and ...

 4            JUDGE RIAD:  So that was not related only to Mr. Radic.  It was

 5    the custom in the camp that they celebrate the birthday of the detainees

 6    and bring them cigarettes and drinks?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8            JUDGE RIAD:  That was?

 9       A.   Yes.

10            JUDGE RIAD:  Thank you very much.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

12    Riad.

13            Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

14            JUDGE WALD:  Ms. Andzic, if I understand your testimony, you

15    worked during the day in the centre, from 0700 to 1900 hours, and then you

16    went home every night; is that right?

17       A.   Yes.

18            JUDGE WALD:  So you were not at the camp at any point during the

19    night, during the time from --

20       A.   No, no.

21            JUDGE WALD:  -- until the next morning.  Okay.

22            You also said that at various times you saw Mr. Radic on the

23    staircase doing guard duty or patrolling, and you also saw him sitting in

24    the office where the telephones were.  You also told us that you, in the

25    building, while doing your cleaning, on occasion, on occasion, would hear

Page 9148

 1    screams or moans, and on occasion would see detainees being slapped

 2    around.

 3            Now, would somebody who was standing on guard where you saw

 4    Mr. Radic standing guard, or sitting in the room with the telephones where

 5    you saw him sitting, would they also be in a position to hear the screams

 6    and moans when they occurred or to see people being slapped around when

 7    that happened?

 8       A.   I didn't understand you, the last bit of what you said.

 9            JUDGE WALD:  All right.  Let me try again.  When you said that you

10    sometimes, occasionally, would hear screams or moans and, occasionally,

11    would see detainees being slapped by the guards, would somebody who was

12    standing in the staircase where you told us you saw Mr. Radic sometimes,

13    or sitting in the room --

14       A.   Yes.

15            JUDGE WALD:  -- would they be in a position to hear those screams

16    and moans or see those detainees being slapped around?

17       A.   I think they could, yes.

18            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  That's all I wanted to know.

19            Now, you also told us that you never heard any of the women

20    detainees complain about Mr. Radic; rather, you heard them say nice things

21    about him.  Did you, in your excursions with the women --

22       A.   Yes, that's right.

23            JUDGE WALD:  Did you, in your excursions into the meadows with

24    the women, or in your talking to them around the building, did you ever

25    hear any of the women complain about any of the guards or anybody who

Page 9149

 1    mistreated them?

 2       A.   No, no, not one single time.

 3            JUDGE WALD:  All right.  Now, did you -- you told us about

 4    Mr. Radic bringing food and toiletries, or that the women told you that he

 5    brought food and toiletries to them.  In your observations, or from what

 6    you heard from the women themselves, was it your impression that Mr. Radic

 7    did spend time during the day talking to them, chatting with the women, in

 8    other words, that he was with them in a friendly way; or his only contact

 9    with him was when he actually brought this food and toiletries to them?

10    From your own observations or from what you heard.

11       A.   Only when he brought them food, then I would see him.  Afterwards,

12    no, that they would chat and be friends, no, I couldn't notice that.  He

13    would just give them food and the toiletries and so on.

14            JUDGE WALD:  My last question is:  When you went on these plant

15    excursions into the meadows, could you keep walking as far into the

16    meadows as you wished, or were there some kind of soldiers on guard a

17    distance away from the meadow beyond which detainees couldn't go?

18       A.   Yes, that did exist.  We couldn't go wherever we wanted to.

19            JUDGE WALD:  Right.  Thank you.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge

21    Wald.

22            Mrs. Vinka Andzic, I have a few questions for you myself.  Did you

23    receive a salary for your work?

24       A.   No.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Therefore, did you have any

Page 9150

 1    obligation to work?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Normally, what was the subject

 4    of conversation that you had with the women?  If you chatted to the women,

 5    what did you usually chat about, talk about?

 6       A.   I knew [redacted] because she worked with me for a long time, 10,

 7    perhaps 12 years.  We worked together so we would talk about everything,

 8    about our families, about everything.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For example, did the women

10    complain about being detained in front of you?  Did they complain to you

11    about that?

12       A.   They just asked me, "Why has all this happened?  What's all this

13    about?" and I would say, "Well, I'm asking myself the same question," that

14    sort of thing.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you ever speak about the

16    conditions that prevailed in the detention centre?

17       A.   The conditions?  They had excellent conditions.  They had food,

18    they had somewhere to sleep, they had a bathroom, a shower.  They were

19    able to wash their clothes.  Mladjo would bring them everything they

20    needed.  I would bring things for them from my own house.  I would bring

21    everybody things, as far as I was able.  That's what we did.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you gain the impression that

23    they were happy to be there?

24       A.   Well, no, of course not.  They weren't happy to be there.  You

25    can't be happy if you're detained.  You don't have your freedom, of

Page 9151

 1    course.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did they complain about anything

 3    to you?

 4       A.   No, they didn't.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  Very well, Mrs. Andzic.

 6            I see that Judge Riad has a question.

 7            JUDGE RIAD:  Yes.  Mrs. Andzic, you just mentioned to the

 8    President that you have the duty to work in the detention centre.  What

 9    kind of duty was that?  Was it a moral duty?  Was it a national

10    obligation?  What was this duty?  Were all women obliged to go and work

11    there?

12       A.   No.

13            JUDGE RIAD:  So what was it?

14       A.   No.  I worked and, quite normally, I continued the work that I had

15    been doing previously; I did the same work, the same job when they

16    called me to continue doing the job I had always done.

17            JUDGE RIAD:  Before the detention centre, you were working there

18    as a cleaning lady?

19       A.   Yes, the same thing, yes.

20            JUDGE RIAD:  Because you said in the beginning that you were a

21    dressmaker.

22       A.   Yes, but I didn't do that work.  You had to take the job that was

23    available.  So I was a cleaning woman since 1985, and I'm still a cleaning

24    woman today.  I've always been a cleaning lady.

25            JUDGE RIAD:  So you were a cleaning lady, and when it was changed

Page 9152

 1    into a detention centre, you continued working.  Did they force you to

 2    work or you stayed of your own free will?

 3       A.   I went on doing the same work, yes.  I had to.  It was my job; it

 4    was my duty, just the same as if, you know, whatever job you have,

 5    whatever employ.  It was my duty to go to work.  Nobody forced me.

 6            JUDGE RIAD:  Thank you.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mrs. Vinka Andzic, we have no

 8    further questions to ask you.  We thank you very much for coming and we

 9    wish you a safe journey back to your place of residence.

10            I'm now going to ask the usher to accompany you out of the

11    courtroom.

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13                          [The witness withdrew]

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.

15            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] We are calling our next witness, Borka

16    Vrhovac.

17                          [The witness entered court]

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mrs. Vrhovac.  Can

19    you hear me?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Yes, I can.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will now read the solemn

22    declaration which the usher will give you.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25                          WITNESS:  BORKA VRHOVAC

Page 9153

 1                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.  Thank you

 3    for coming to testify.  Now you will be answering questions that Mr. Fila,

 4    who is to your left, will ask of you.

 5            Mr. Fila.

 6            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7                          Examined by Mr. Fila:

 8       Q.   Mrs. Vrhovac, where and when were you born?

 9       A.   I was born near Prijedor on the 13th of February, 1949.

10       Q.   And your ethnicity?

11       A.   I'm a Serb.

12       Q.   Your religion?

13       A.   Orthodox.

14       Q.   Are you married?

15       A.   I am married and a mother of two.

16       Q.   What education do you have?

17       A.   Secondary agricultural school and high teaching school in Zemun.

18       Q.   Where do you live?  Where do you work?

19       A.   I live in Omarska, and I work for Polje Promet Omarska which is an

20    agricultural cooperative.

21       Q.   Did you know the Radic family, specifically Mladjo Radic, and

22    since when?

23       A.   I knew the Radics because they were our neighbours.  We lived in

24    the same building.  It was a very nice family.  I never heard anything bad

25    about them.  We socialised because we were neighbours.

Page 9154

 1       Q.   Same building.  What town?

 2       A.   In Omarska.

 3       Q.   And then when he left Omarska and moved over to Prijedor, did you

 4    meet again?

 5       A.   Well, at times, yes, we'd meet.  If I would go to Prijedor, yes,

 6    we would meet on occasion.  Not particularly often.

 7       Q.   Are you aware that at some point an investigations centre or a

 8    camp, as some call it, was formed in the Omarska mine?

 9       A.   Yes, I am aware of the investigations centre.

10       Q.   Was it in 1992?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Sometime in the middle of the year?

13       A.   In May.

14       Q.   Or maybe June?

15       A.   Thereabouts.

16       Q.   Did Mladjo Radic call you in relation to that investigations

17    centre?  What did he tell you?

18       A.   Mr. Radic brought me a letter written by a lady in the

19    investigations centre, asking me to send her clothes.  I knew her from

20    the -- because I was the president of the women's organisation in Omarska

21    and that is how I knew her.  So she sent me this letter, she signed it,

22    and was asking me for some clothes.  And I took those clothes to

23    Mr. Radic to hand those clothes over to her.

24       Q.   Perhaps I don't see well.  Did you tell us the name of that

25    person?

Page 9155












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Page 9156

 1       A. [redacted]

 2       Q.   Was she employed somewhere?

 3       A. [redacted]

 4    [redacted]

 5       Q. [redacted]

 6       A. [redacted]

 7       Q. [redacted]

 8       A. [redacted]

 9       Q.   Was that the first time you learned that she was in that

10    investigations centre?

11       A.   Yes, it was.

12       Q.   And when you prepared those clothes to send to her, you gave it to

13    Mladjo Radic, as you told us?

14       A.   I took it to his flat.

15       Q.   And what did he tell you?

16       A.   That he would do it on different occasions because it was

17    difficult for him to take it in one go, because I had taken a few changes

18    of clothes.  And he said that he would try to give it to her in

19    installments, as it were.

20       Q.   But why couldn't he take it all at once?  Why was that?  Was there

21    something wrong about that?

22       A.   Well, those were the times.  People were saying that there was

23    some kind of ethnic war, that there was intolerance of sorts, and he

24    thought that it would be best if he didn't do it all at once, because it

25    was said that there were people who were the enemies of our people and ...

Page 9157

 1       Q.   So it wasn't -- it couldn't really be good if he were seen in

 2    public carrying those things, would it?

 3       A.   Yes, yes, yes.

 4       Q.   Did you also send something to some other detainees?

 5       A.   Yes, I did, but I don't know their names.  But be that as it may,

 6    all the women knew my name because I was the chairman of the women's

 7    organisation and that is how we cooperated.  So if somebody knew somebody,

 8    he would or she would give my name and I sent things to various people

 9    through those who were on duty in the investigations centre.

10       Q.   So you did not do it only through Mladjo Radic, did you?

11       A.   No, not only.  I also sent things through other people who worked

12    for the police or had connections with the police.  I remember twins, one

13    of the twins.  My colleague sent a note to me asking me to send some food,

14    some bread, and the young person -- there were young persons involved and

15    I thought they would need more of them.  Afterwards I met them in Prijedor

16    and their mother, and I know that they are somewhere in Holland but I

17    don't know what they are doing.  I haven't heard about them since.

18       Q.   So they received what you sent them.

19       A.   Yes, they did, and they thanked me.  The sister's name was Azra

20    and she worked in the post office in Kozarac, and I met her in Prijedor

21    when I went -- as I was on my way to the bank.  She was thanking me and

22    saying that she would never forget it.  But then I heard that they had

23    left to the Netherlands, and I did not hear from them again.

24       Q.   And my last question:  During your acquaintanceship with the Radic

25    family, and especially Mladjo Radic, did you ever notice any signs of

Page 9158

 1    ethnic intolerance towards other ethnic groups?

 2       A.   No, never.  They were -- they are a very nice family.  I never

 3    noticed anything of the sorts.

 4            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I have no further

 5    questions.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do other Defence counsel have

 7    any questions?  No?  I see they are indicating that they do not.  Very

 8    well.  Thank you.

 9            Now, Witness, you will answer the questions which the Prosecution

10    will ask you.

11            Yes, you have the floor.

12            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                          Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

14       Q.   Before the war, Mrs. Vrhovac, where were you employed?

15       A.   I work for the agricultural cooperative.  That's where I was

16    employed before the war, during the war, and where I still work.

17       Q.   Are you a representative of the firm Zepter?

18       A.   Yes, yes, I am.

19       Q.   What is your function in that organisation?

20       A.   I'm a Zepter associate.  I'm their salesperson, and I sell, on

21    their behalf, various cosmetics.

22       Q.   Mrs. Vrhovac, what is the name of your husband?

23       A.   Radivoje Vrhovac.

24       Q.   What's his occupation?

25       A.   He is an agricultural technician.

Page 9159

 1       Q.   Was he mobilised during the conflict, the war?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Where?

 4       A.   He was mostly under labour obligation in Poljopromet, because

 5    he was an -- he is an agricultural expert.  He led the group that was

 6    responsible for the sewing and things like that.

 7       Q.   Was he in Prijedor?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   Mrs. Vrhovac, you are a person who has been engaged in a women's

10    association; am I correct?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Were you the president in 1992, January, in the women's

13    organisation, [redacted]

14       A.   In Omarska neighbourhood community, I was the chairman, the

15    president of the women's organisation, and in the Kozarac neighbourhood

16    community, it was Kadira Kahrimanovic.  I do not know whether Sabiha was

17    her deputy; I don't know that.  But I cooperated with Mrs. Kadira

18    Kahrimanovic who chaired the organisation in Kozarac.

19       Q.   Mrs. Vrhovac, were you a member of any other association during

20    the conflict and after the conflict?

21       A.   Only the president of the women's organisation; nothing else.

22       Q.   Were you a member of the Association of Serb Sisters during the

23    war in Prijedor?  Do you know that association?

24       A.   I know about that organisation but I wasn't a member.

25       Q.   Were you a member of the women's organisation of the 5th Kozarac

Page 9160

 1    Brigade, which was called in short form PET?  I'm sure you remember that

 2    as you were the chairwoman.

 3       A.   I was the president of the women's organisation and thus I worked,

 4    cooperated, with women.  We did simply what we had to do at the time, that

 5    is, preparing food, collecting clothes, and things like that.

 6       Q.   My question was whether you were the chairman -- chairwoman of the

 7    association of the 5th Kozarac Brigade which was called PET, during and

 8    after the war?

 9       A.   I don't know of that name.  I'm not aware of that name.

10    Naturally, I worked for it because we collected woollen socks or we knit

11    them.  I organised women to knit woollen socks for the troops and we

12    gathered food and carried it to them.  I don't remember its name.  Perhaps

13    I misunderstood something.

14       Q.   I don't understand your answer.  You say, "I don't know that

15    name," but then subsequently you say, "Naturally, I worked for it because

16    we collected woollen socks."  Did you organise an evening where woollen

17    socks were knitted and were collected for the soldiers in the front, the

18    Serbian soldiers?

19       A.   Yes.  I said that I organised it, that we knitted socks and

20    collected food and carried it over.

21       Q.   Did you visit the front and see to the soldiers who were in the

22    front and the wounded, you and your organisation?

23       A.   I did go to take the food on Easter, and I took them eggs and

24    sweets and woollen socks, woollen socks which were knit by the women in

25    the organisation.

Page 9161

 1       Q.   So you went to the front and saw the soldiers and the wounded in

 2    the front; yes or no?  That's what you said; am I correct?

 3       A.   I did see soldiers but not the wounded, because I only carried it

 4    to a certain place and turned it over.  I never saw any wounded; I cannot

 5    say that.

 6       Q.   Mrs. Vrhovac, you knew that there was a camp where your earlier

 7    friends, former friends, were detained in Omarska.

 8       A.   Yes, I knew --

 9       Q.   Did you go to the camp and attend to those people at any time?

10       A.   I helped by sending food.  I never went there, I never went there

11    at all.  But I said, I already said --

12       Q.   Did you make a request to go --

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.

14            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Could Mr. Waidyaratne allow the witness

15    to finish the sentence and thus give the proper answer, to let the witness

16    say what she has to say?  Or perhaps Mr. Waidyaratne will answer for her.

17            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  No, I won't -- I would allow the witness to

18    speak, Your Honour.  I'm sorry if I disturbed the witness.

19       Q.   Mrs. Vrhovac, now you spoke about the instance where Mr. Radic

20    informed you about a person Sabiha who was detained at the Omarska camp.

21    What exactly did you send?  What was the parcel that you gave to Mr. Radic

22    to be taken to the camp?

23       A.   The letter said that she needed some warm clothes, and I know I

24    sent some underwear with long sleeves, some T-shirts, and I remember a

25    pair of yellow trousers made of Indian cotton.  It was in summertime.  But

Page 9162

 1    to remember every detail, really, I can't.  I do know that there were some

 2    body warmers with long sleeves, and I remember those trousers made of

 3    Indian cotton.

 4       Q.   After the detention or thereafter, did you meet [redacted] at any

 5    time after her detention?  Yes or no?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Do you know as to whether she received all of what you are

 8    supposed to have sent through Mr. Radic?  Do you know?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Did you at any time ask Mr. Radic as to why these people were

11    detained?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Did Mr. Radic tell you as to why these people were detained?

14       A.   No, we did not discuss it at all.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The time, Mr. Waidyaratne.

16            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Last question, Your Honour.

17       Q.   You said in your testimony in direct examination that, "These were

18    people who were enemies of our people."  What did you mean by that?

19       A.   Well, simply that is -- I didn't --

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.

21            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Will Mr. Waidyaratne read what she

22    said exactly, please.

23            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  That's what I did, Your Honour.  I would even

24    quote the line and the page if Mr. Fila wants it, but only thing, it's

25    taking the time.

Page 9163

 1            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, but let us spend time to cut -- or

 2    rather, the truth.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, will you please

 4    check if the witness said because -- ask first the witness if she did,

 5    indeed, say that, and after that then proceed to asking your question.

 6            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Very well, very well.

 7       Q.   Did you say, "These were people who were enemies of our people,"

 8    and, and you stopped.  What did you mean by that?

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne,

10    Mr. Waidyaratne, first one question and then the second.  You cannot

11    say -- wait for her answer.  You cannot say, "Did you say that and what

12    did you mean by it?"  Wait for the answer to your first question.

13            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Very well, Your Honour.  I'm sorry.

14       Q.   Did you say, "These were people who were enemies of our people"?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   What did you mean by that?

17       A.   When the investigations centre was set up, it was said that there

18    were conflicts which -- the enemy of our people, and the investigations

19    centre was set up to prove it or disprove it.

20            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you very

22    much.

23            Mr. Fila, do you have any additional questions?

24            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The problem is whether the witness is

25    voicing her own opinion that they are the enemies of the Serb people, or

Page 9164

 1    whether it was said, whether it was rumoured that they were the enemies of

 2    the Serb people.  That is what needs to be clarified because there is a

 3    difference between the two.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.  Ask your

 5    question.

 6                          Re-examined by Mr. Fila:

 7       Q.   Mrs. Vrhovac, are you giving us your opinion, that they are the

 8    enemies of the Serb people, or is it that you said that when I asked you

 9    why couldn't all be taken at once, that it was too dangerous because it

10    was said that they were the enemies of the Serb people?

11       A.   Correct, the latter.  That is what was said, and that is why it

12    was dangerous to take it all at once, and one could take food only in

13    small quantities.

14       Q.   So that was not your opinion, it was the story that went around.

15       A.   Yes.  I testified to the story that went around during those

16    days when the investigations centre was set up.

17       Q.   But you didn't know who was there because you had never been to

18    it.

19       A.   I had never been to it.

20       Q.   And do you know why people were there?

21       A.   No, I don't, not exactly.  Because conflicts started.  No, I don't

22    know.

23       Q.   Very well.  The next thing that I want to know, and to clarify

24    this, you were the president of the women's organisation in the Omarska

25    neighbourhood community; is that correct?

Page 9165

 1       A.   It is.

 2       Q.   And that was before the war?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And then during the war, during all that, did you change the name

 5    of that women's organisation?

 6       A.   That organisation went on working.

 7       Q.   Did you change it to some other name that Mr. Waidyaratne

 8    mentioned?

 9       A.   I'm not -- no, I'm not aware of that.

10       Q.   And my last question:  Do you consider it an embarrassment, do you

11    consider it a disgrace to collect things and to help people who are

12    fighting against your people?

13       A.   No, I didn't.  I did that because, no, I did not think it would

14    disgrace me in any manner, and that is why I helped whoever asked me to

15    help him.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fila.

17            Judge Riad.

18            JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] I do not have any questions.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Wald.

20            JUDGE WALD:  Thank you.  I have just a very few.

21                          Questioned by the Court:

22            JUDGE WALD:  The women's organisation before the war that you were

23    president of, you said that [redacted] had been a member of it and

24    that's how you knew her when you got the letter asking for clothes; is

25    that right?

Page 9166

 1       A. [redacted] socialised with us because she was in the women's

 2    organisation in Kozarac.

 3            JUDGE WALD:  Right, I understand that.  I wanted to clarify.  Then

 4    the women's organisations before the war had both Serb and Muslim members?

 5    I mean, in other words, Muslim women could belong as well as Serb women,

 6    maybe Croat women; is that right?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8            JUDGE WALD:  Now, after the war broke out, you told us that the

 9    women's organisation continued to function during the war.

10       A.   Yes.

11            JUDGE WALD:  Did it continue to function with Muslim members, with

12    Muslim women belonging?  Did they continue -- did some Muslim women

13    continue to be members of the women's organisation after the war started?

14       A.   There was a Croat woman who worked with us.  Unfortunately, she

15    passed away.  And those women who happened to be there just went on

16    working.  Women who used to live and work in my organisation before that

17    simply went on working.

18            JUDGE WALD:  Including some Muslim women?  In other words, during

19    the war, did the women's organisation have any Muslim women working with

20    it?

21       A.   That organisation had stopped working; that is, we were not

22    active.  The Omarska neighbourhood community organisation went on working

23    as before.

24            JUDGE WALD:  And did it have any Muslim members during the war,

25    the Omarska neighbourhood women's community organisation?

Page 9167

 1       A.   No.

 2            JUDGE WALD:  Now, my only other question is, when I first heard

 3    you testify, and I want to make sure that this is correct - tell me if

 4    it's not correct - I thought that you said that when you brought the

 5    clothes for Mr. Radic to take to [redacted], there were a lot of

 6    clothes and that Mr. Radic said he might not be able to take them all at

 7    once because it might not look good if it were too obvious he was taking

 8    so many clothes because there were people that said people in the camp

 9    were enemies of the people; and that it was Mr. Radic who said there were

10    others who believed that the people in the camp were enemies of the

11    people, and that's why he wasn't going to take all the clothes at once.

12    Is that right, or did I misunderstand?

13       A.   No, that is not what Mr. Radic said.  Mr. Radic said, "I'll try to

14    take it over on different occasions, to take it part by part."

15            JUDGE WALD:  So the business of some people thinking that people

16    in the camp were enemies of the public was something you had heard other

17    people say; is that right?

18       A.   Yes.

19            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  Thank you.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Wald.

21            Mrs. Vrhovac, I also have two short questions.  At the time, did

22    you have an opinion about why some people were detained in Omarska?

23       A.   No.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You could offer no reason at

25    all?

Page 9168

 1       A.   No, because I cooperated, I communicated, I had contact with my

 2    colleagues from the women's organisation until the very last moment.  I

 3    simply didn't ...

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you tell us that you did not

 5    know what the reason was, that those people were the enemy of your people,

 6    that was that.  But I wonder, and that is my question, did you have any

 7    idea, did you have any idea why were those people kept there?

 8       A.   No.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you didn't know it; you never

10    thought about that.  Very well.

11            Another question:  In Omarska before the war, were there any

12    Muslim women in your organisation?

13       A.   Yes, there were.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Right,

15    Mrs. Vrhovac, we do not have any further questions to ask you.  Thank you

16    very much for coming.  We wish you successful work and a happy return to

17    your home.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The usher will help you out of

20    the courtroom.

21                          [The witness withdrew]

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right.  We shall now make a

23    break, a half-hour break.

24                          --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

25                          --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.

Page 9169

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

 2            I take advantage of this opportunity to inform the parties, and

 3    more specifically Mr. Jovan Simic, that I have indeed contacted the Office

 4    of the President and requested an urgent provisional decision, without

 5    prejudice, as to subsequent developments.  So what I have promised I have

 6    done.

 7            We can now have the witness brought in, Mr. Fila, the next

 8    witness.  Miroslav Rosic; is that right?

 9            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, it is Miroslav Rosic, and

10    Mr. Jovanovic will be the examiner.

11                          [The witness entered court]

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Miroslav

13    Rosic.  Can you hear me?

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will you please read the solemn

16    declaration given to you by the usher.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                          WITNESS:  MIROSLAV ROSIC

20                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

22            [In English] Will you put on the other mic, please.  Turn it on.

23    Okay.

24            [Interpretation] Thank you very much for coming.  You will be

25    first answering questions put to you by Mr. Jovanovic.

Page 9170

 1            Mr. Jovanovic, your witness.

 2            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                          Examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

 4       Q.   Mr. Rosic, tell us, please, when you were born.

 5       A.   On the 23rd of September, 1962.

 6       Q.   Where?  Where were you born, Mr. Rosic?

 7       A.   In Omarska.

 8       Q.   Where are you living now?

 9       A.   In Omarska.

10       Q.   What do you do?

11       A.   I drive an ambulance in the health centre.

12       Q.   Mr. Rosic, before the outbreak of the war in Prijedor, did you

13    know Mladjo Radic?

14       A.   Yes, I did.  He was a policeman in Omarska and we lived close by.

15       Q.   Mr. Rosic, can you think back to 1992, the end of May or the

16    beginning of June, when you had to make a trip with your vehicle?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Something linked to Mladjo Radic, in a way.

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Could you please tell us about that event, and exactly what

21    happened?

22       A.   Sometime at the end of May or the beginning of June, I don't know

23    exactly, I know that I was on duty in the health centre, as usual, and

24    there was a call from the police station; that is, Mr. Mladjo himself

25    called up and said that a vehicle -- an ambulance was out of order on the

Page 9171

 1    road with a mother inside with a seriously injured child, and that we

 2    needed to go there immediately to transport the mother and child to the

 3    hospital in Banja Luka.  And on that occasion, Mr. Radic mentioned that he

 4    had a family relationship with the mother and child in the car, and he

 5    asked me to assist them as much as I can and to stay with them for as long

 6    as is necessary.

 7       Q.   Do you remember the names of the mother and the hurt boy?

 8       A.   The lady's name was Senada, I think, Denic, and a nine- or

 9    eight-year-old boy whose name I don't know.

10       Q.   Do you know what ethnicity they were?

11       A.   They were Muslims.  I think they were Muslims, judging by their

12    names and surnames.

13       Q.   Did you know whether they were linked to the Radic family?

14       A.   Yes.  Mladjo mentioned that they were related.  But as we set off

15    very soon, then the child's mother, Mrs. Denic, told me that they were

16    kums, that the two families had this kum relationship.

17       Q.   While you were driving the ambulance in those days, did you go to

18    Banja Luka?

19       A.   Yes.  That evening too we stayed until late, and on the way back

20    again, when I came home, Mladjo was waiting for me in the morning.  He

21    inquired about the condition of the mother and child and asked me to call

22    him back and report to him on their improvement, whenever I had any

23    contact with them, whenever I went to Banja Luka.

24       Q.   Did you take anything to Mrs. Denic and her son when you went to

25    see them?

Page 9172

 1       A.   On the second day, Mladjo gave me some money.  I think it was his

 2    salary that he just received.  And he gave this money to me to give to

 3    her so that she would have it on her.

 4       Q.   Did you take anything else, apart from money?

 5       A.   On one occasion, that is, on the third or further day, I went to

 6    Banja Luka, I carried a parcel with food inside.

 7       Q.   Mr. Rosic, are you aware of any of your colleagues or somebody

 8    else taking things to that family?

 9       A.   Yes.  As far as I know, the other drivers too were contacted by

10    Mladjo and he sent food through them also.

11       Q.   What did Mrs. Senada Denic tell you, if anything, when you met

12    her, bringing her these things?

13       A.   The first day, the woman was terribly shaken up, as anyone would

14    be because of the condition of the child.  As I stayed there all night,

15    whenever I would bring food or money, she would express endless gratitude

16    to this person, to this man who had shown such concern for the child and

17    herself.  She was grateful to us as well but especially to him.

18            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I have

19    no further questions.  Thank you, Mr. Rosic.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Any of the other Defence counsel

21    that have any questions for this witness?  I see they do not.

22            In that case, Mr. Waidyaratne, your witness.

23            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                          Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

25       Q.   Mr. Rosic, are you a relation of Mr. Zeljko Meakic?

Page 9173

 1       A.   He is a distant relative of my mother's.

 2       Q.   Do you live in the same flat where Mr. Meakic lives?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   Did you live, in 1992, during the war and prior to the war, in the

 5    same block of flats?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Mr. Rosic, other than the ambulance that you drove, did you drive

 8    any other vehicles for the army when you were mobilised?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   During the conflict, when Kozarac was attacked, were you in the

11    area where the Muslims were cleared out?

12       A.   At the time the conflict broke out in Prijedor municipality, I was

13    in the medical units of the 1st Krajina Corps, exclusively in the

14    medical units and medical teams that went into the field to care for the

15    soldiers of the army of Republika Srpska.  In those days, it was still the

16    Territorial Defence, I think.

17       Q.   Now, during that time, you helped only the soldiers who were

18    wounded; is that correct?  That was your duty, yes?

19       A.   Yes, yes, yes.

20       Q.   Now, Mr. Rosic, you said -- coming to the event where Mr. Radic

21    called you from the police, did Mr. Radic identify himself when he

22    called?  Did he say, "I'm Mladjo Radic"?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   You answered the phone at the health centre.

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9174

 1       Q.   And this was the health centre which was at Omarska.

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Did Mr. Radic say as to who was the name of the person who was

 4    injured and the person -- the mother's name, the boy's mother's name, to

 5    you?

 6       A.   I think he didn't.  I don't think he did.

 7       Q.   But he -- Mr. Radic, when he called, he said, "I'm Mladjo Radic.

 8    I'm calling from the Omarska Police Station."  That's your position?

 9       A.   Yes, yes.

10       Q.   Now, you spoke about what Mr. Radic -- how he helped this Denic.

11    You referred to the mother of the boy, the injured boy, as Senada Denic;

12    am I correct?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Now, Mr. Rosic, you would have had opportunity to speak with

15    Senada because you said that you were there with her in the first instance

16    when you took the boy and the mother to Banja Luka hospital.  Did you know

17    as to who was the husband of this Senada Denic, the name and as to what

18    his profession was?

19       A.   She told me that her husband used to work in the Omarska Police

20    Station, though I don't know the gentleman.

21       Q.   Did you know Mr. Ibrahim Denic, the policeman who worked in

22    Omarska?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Did she tell you as to what happened to Ibrahim Denic during the

25    time of the conflict?

Page 9175

 1       A.   I think that she didn't.  At that point in time, our only concern,

 2    both hers and mine, was the child so we didn't talk about anything else.

 3       Q.   Correct.  But later on, because you seem to have taken things from

 4    Radic to Mrs. Denic and the boy who was in hospital in Banja Luka, but

 5    even that, did you ask as to where her husband was, as to where he was?

 6       A.   Mrs. Denic stayed in Banja Luka with a woman that we found

 7    together --

 8       Q.   I'm sorry.

 9       A.   -- and I think that she didn't know where her husband was.

10       Q.   No.  My question is:  Did she -- I'm asking as to whether she told

11    you at any time about her husband being -- as to where he was during that

12    time?

13       A.   I think that she told me that she didn't know where he was.

14       Q.   Did Mr. Radic tell you that Mr. Ibrahim Denic was detained?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Do you know -- did you ask him as to where this policeman,

17    Mr. Denic, was, ask Mr. Radic?

18       A.   No.  My duties were such that in those days, I didn't have time to

19    talk at any length with anybody.  We really were loaded with work.

20       Q.   Yes.  But during these busy times that you talk about, you met

21    Mr. Radic and took things, according to your testimony, to Mrs. Denic

22    when you went to Banja Luka.  That's your position; isn't that true?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Now, during this time, didn't you also ask, "Where is the father

25    of this boy?"  At least from Mr. Radic, you didn't.

Page 9176

 1       A.   No, no.

 2       Q.   No.  Did Mrs. Denic, Senada Denic, tell you about her brother,

 3    Midhat Fazlic who was detained at the Omarska camp?

 4       A.   No, she didn't say anything about that.

 5       Q.   Did Mr. Radic say that there was a brother of this lady whom he is

 6    helping by the name of Midhat Fazlic who was detained at the Omarska camp?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Mr. Rosic, did Mr. Radic ask you to assist any other Muslim

 9    detainee during this time?

10       A.   I was mostly assigned to care for soldiers of the army of

11    Republika Srpska.  Then everything else was done by the civilian services

12    in those days.

13       Q.   I'm sorry.  I don't think you understood my question.  Did

14    Mr. Radic ask you to assist any other Muslim detainee during this time;

15    yes or no?

16       A.   No.  We had no contacts among each other to discuss such things.

17    There were other departments in the health centre who took care of such

18    things.

19       Q.   Now, do you remember the vehicle JNAK3742, the number?

20       A.   3742?

21       Q.   Yes.

22       A.   I did drive a military ambulance.  Whether it had that

23    registration number, I don't know.

24            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Please bear with me, Your Honour.  I have only

25    one more question.

Page 9177

 1       Q.   My question again:  Did Mr. Radic ask you to assist any other

 2    Muslim during this period?

 3       A.   I've told you already, my primary responsible was to care for

 4    soldiers.  Probably they addressed other people in the medical centre who

 5    had such responsibilities.

 6            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  I have no further questions.  Thank you, Your

 7    Honours.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

 9    Mr. Waidyaratne.

10            Mr. Jovanovic, any additional questions?

11            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, just

12    one.

13                          Re-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

14       Q.   Mr. Rosic, this thing that you did, that you took the child to

15    Banja Luka, was that something outside your regular duties?

16       A.   Yes.

17            MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

19    Mr. Jovanovic.

20            Judge Fouad Riad?  Judge Wald?

21            Mr. Rosic, I have a few questions.

22                          Questioned by the Court:

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Rosic, I have a few

24    questions.  If I understood correctly, the health centre where you were

25    working was in Omarska, was it not?

Page 9178

 1       A.   Yes.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And before the conflict, did you

 3    work in the same place or not?

 4       A.   No.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Where were you working before

 6    the war?

 7       A.   In Celpak, a company in Prijedor.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.  You've

 9    answered my questions.  Thank you very much, Mr. Rosic, for coming, and I

10    wish you a safe journey home.  The usher will accompany you out.  Thank

11    you.

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13                          [The witness withdrew]

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, is the next witness

15    Bogdan Delic?  Yes, if we follow the order, then we can anticipate

16    things.

17                          [The witness entered court]

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Delic.  Can

19    you hear me?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, good morning, Your Honour.  I

21    hear you.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will now be reading the

23    solemn declaration handed to you by the usher.  Please proceed.

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 9179

 1                          WITNESS:  BOGDAN DELIC

 2                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.  Try and sit

 4    comfortably.  You will start off by answering questions put to you by

 5    Mr. Fila.

 6            Mr. Fila, your witness.

 7            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President, but by your

 8    leave, Mr. Zoran Jovanovic has asked to leave the courtroom to call our

 9    sixth witness, because I see we're getting things done today quickly.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please go ahead,

11    Mr. Jovanovic.

12            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, please proceed.

14                          Examined by Mr. Fila:

15       Q.   Mr. Rosic, could you tell us please where and when you were born?

16    I apologise, not Mr. Rosic.  Mr. Delic, would you tell us when and where

17    you were born?

18       A.   I was born in 1950, on the 15th of April, in Sokolac.

19       Q.   What are you by profession?

20       A.   I am a graduate of the political science faculty.

21       Q.   Where do you work?

22       A.   I work in Prijedor.

23       Q.   What is your ethnicity?

24       A.   I am a Serb.

25       Q.   Your religion?

Page 9180

 1       A.   Orthodox.

 2       Q.   Marital status?

 3       A.   I am married with two children.

 4       Q.   Mr. Delic, in 1993, what job were you performing?

 5       A.   In 1993, I was the Chief of the Public Security Station of

 6    Prijedor.

 7       Q.   At some time during that year, did you propose policeman Mladjo

 8    Radic -- did you put him forward for an award of any kind?

 9       A.   Yes.  We were celebrating police day, and his colleagues from the

10    police department of Omarska put him forward for an award, and I passed it

11    on to the authorities for his work merits over a period of 20 years, in

12    addition to a number of other policemen who were put forward for an award

13    as well.

14       Q.   At that time in Omarska, it was the police department, was it not?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Who was the commander, the chief?

17       A.   The chief of that police department was Zeljko Meakic.

18       Q.   Can you tell us the structure, the makeup and organisation of the

19    police department?

20       A.   The police department is the lowest unit numbering 15 to 20

21    people, and that's how many that particular department had.  It had its

22    commander and it had a schedule with shifts.  There were patrol leaders,

23    patrol sector leaders.  One or two experienced policemen were on the

24    field, on the terrain, who would report back to the commander of the

25    department which was then forwarded on to the police station.  And I

Page 9181

 1    was informed of the daily occurrences, and if there was any need, then I

 2    would react.

 3       Q.   In that police department -- the police department is where Mladjo

 4    Radic worked?

 5       A.   Yes.  Mladjo Radic worked as an ordinary policeman, on the beat,

 6    in the Omarska Police Department.

 7       Q.   Do you know what qualifications he held and what he was trained

 8    for?

 9       A.   Mladjo Radic, as far as I was informed, worked as an ordinary

10    policeman.  He had attended policeman's courses and finished them,

11    graduated, and he had about 20 years of work experience.  That was

12    considered a jubilee number of years.  On the basis of his work

13    experience, his colleagues put him forward for an award for those 20 years

14    of work.  A symbolic sum of money at that time.  We did not receive

15    salaries at that time, but it was a sort of remuneration for his 20 years

16    of work and would go towards helping his family to make ends meet.

17       Q.   An individual with that kind of qualification, that is to say, who

18    had graduated from a training course, were they in line for any command

19    structure and position of command?

20       A.   No.  With that kind of qualification, all that people of that kind

21    could be were policemen on the beat, in a sector, covering a certain

22    area.

23       Q.   The award that was mentioned, the initiative, as you say, came

24    from the police department, did it not, in Omarska?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9182

 1       Q.   So you then passed that nomination on forward.  Who did you pass

 2    it on to?

 3       A.   To the Ministry in Banja Luka and the Security Services Centre

 4    there.

 5       Q.   And what was the feedback information you received about the

 6    people who were to receive the awards?

 7       A.   We received a list of people who were to be rewarded for

 8    Policeman's Day, the 21st of November.  They were symbolic awards.  Mladjo

 9    would have perhaps got a bigger award, like a gold watch, for his services

10    had the times been normal.

11       Q.   Who took the decision to award him?

12       A.   The security services sector or, rather, the Ministry.

13       Q.   Can I say that you just signed the decision but you did not bring

14    the decision yourself?

15       A.   I could only nominate people for the award but I couldn't make the

16    decision myself, and that is what I did.  I passed this nomination on.

17       Q.   Who compiled the decision itself?

18       A.   His colleagues formulated the reasons for which they were

19    nominating him for an award, and I forwarded this.  It was his jubilee for

20    working 20 years in the police force, for the kind of conduct he always

21    had, his assistance to younger colleagues, the work he did on the beat, on

22    patrol.  He was successful in his work so they compiled a document of this

23    kind by way of nomination.  I accepted this and sent it on forward,

24    because Mladjo was, indeed, an experienced policeman.  I sent it on to the

25    Banja Luka Security Services Centre and they okayed it, they approved the

Page 9183

 1    nomination, along with a list of others, other worthy policemen.

 2       Q.   The decision itself, that is to say, the nomination request, was

 3    it written in the same way as it was for the other policemen?

 4       A.   Yes.  For the years of experience, for the conduct at work and

 5    everything else, it would be the same sort of nomination request that was

 6    written for everyone.

 7       Q.   Did the award represent a sort of financial contribution in view

 8    of the salaries or lack of salaries?

 9       A.   Well, as we did not receive salaries during that time, it was

10    remuneration which would help.  We did not receive any salaries in 1992

11    and 1993, in view of the circumstances and the events that were taking

12    place.  And at that time, Mladjo had a large family and so that was

13    another thing that motivated us to help him.  In addition to his 20 years

14    of experience, his jubilee of 20 years, we also wished to help the family

15    in this way.

16       Q.   As a high-ranking or fairly high-ranking police official, you had

17    occasion to be acquainted with the rules of work of the security organs;

18    is that correct?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   You were commander, chief of the public security station in

21    Prijedor; is that right?

22       A.   Yes, the public security station.

23       Q.   Did you have any deputies, assistants, department heads, or

24    anything of that kind?

25       A.   I had both a deputy and an assistant, and I had police departments

Page 9184

 1    which, in turn, had their commanders.  We had the traffic police that had

 2    its commander; we had the crime squad or crime department.  And the police

 3    stations also had their chain of command, whereas the police departments

 4    did not.  They just had the commander for that particular police

 5    department.

 6       Q.   In the organisation of the police force, in general terms,

 7    generally speaking, is there a service which would be called shift leader?

 8       A.   Well, no.  There is only the duty officer or officers who are on

 9    standby all the time and at the disposal of the department.

10       Q.   Mr. Delic, the police department, was it its job to provide

11    security for a building or to step in in the case of a fire or some other

12    extraordinary event?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   If there were several shifts covering one day, two days, three

15    days, or four days, or whatever, could you tell us how this was organised,

16    how the rotation, the roster was organised and who would do this?

17       A.   The department commander knew the exact number of employees, and

18    according to the Rules of Service, he would distribute the workers he had

19    into shifts covering 24 hours.  The first shift would work for a certain

20    time and they would be replaced by the second shift, and when they would

21    take over shifts, they would report to the person on duty who would

22    receive the report and then the others would go on duty for the area that

23    was covered, that kind of thing.

24       Q.   If there were any changes in this schedule, what would happen?

25       A.   If there were unforeseen situations like floods or fires, or a

Page 9185

 1    traffic accident of any kind, then more policemen would be sent to that

 2    area.  They would be called, placed on the alert, and go to help out their

 3    colleagues for an extraordinary situation of this kind.

 4       Q.   Let us return to 1992.  You were not in the region of Omarska and

 5    Prijedor at that time; is that correct?

 6       A.   No, I was not.

 7       Q.   Let us take the Omarska Police Department, working with a number

 8    of policemen and going about its usual business.  Suddenly, it receives

 9    the task of providing security for the Omarska Investigations Centre.  How

10    would it do this?  How would it perform that assignment?

11       A.   Well, the department could not do all this without reinforcements,

12    without having more people sent in as reinforcements.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, you are on your

14    feet.

15            MS. SOMERS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm just curious, I don't recall

16    any testimony that this individual was involved in the police department

17    in 1992.  That would lead to a lack of knowledge.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, you will have

19    the opportunity of cross-examining the witness on the subject.  The

20    witness said that he wasn't on the spot in Omarska at the time.  Mr. Fila

21    went on to ask about the rules and how the rules provided for the

22    situation in Omarska.  So you will have your chance, Ms. Somers.

23            But, Mr. Fila, please proceed.

24            MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   Providing security for a large centre -- investigation centre of

Page 9186

 1    this kind would be much more work, a greater work load.

 2       A.   Yes, it would, and it would mean more people to cover that

 3    workload.

 4       Q.   And you explained to us a moment ago that you would call the

 5    reserve forces.

 6       A.   Yes, the reserve police force or policemen from other departments

 7    or sectors, that would be called in as reinforcements and assigned to the

 8    various tasks.

 9       Q.   Bearing in mind the fact that this would be, for example, a

10    provisional security, provide provisional security, temporary security,

11    not permanent but only for a given period of time, what would happen then?

12       A.   Then a decision would be taken to take on temporary

13    reinforcements, provisional reinforcements.

14       Q.   I see.  I understand.  Would this require a change in the command

15    structure and the chain of command?

16       A.   This would not require a change in the command structure, not

17    necessarily.

18       Q.   My last question.  Does the commander of a police department, any

19    police department, like the one in Omarska, for example, does he have the

20    right to change command structure?

21       A.   No, he does not have the right to change the command structure

22    without agreement from the Ministry or Security Services Centre or the

23    chief of the police station.

24       Q.   To clarify points, a decision would have to be taken at a much

25    higher level; is that correct?

Page 9187

 1       A.   Yes.  A request would have to be sent to me, as the chief of the

 2    police station, and I would have to pass it on further up the line to the

 3    Public Security Services Centre which would, in turn, have to ask the

 4    Ministry of Internal Affairs in order to change the structure work in the

 5    area on the spot.

 6            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

 7    questions, Your Honour.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, I should like to take

 9    advantage of this opportunity to ask you:  How long would all this take?

10    If a request came to you and you sent it further up the chain of command,

11    up the line, how long would it take you to receive a decision of this kind

12    back?

13       A.   As this is done by telegramme or telegraph, it would require about

14    ten days.  If it is an urgent situation, then it might require less than

15    ten days.  But usually about ten days.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  Very well.  Would any of

17    the other Defence counsel like to ask the witness any questions?

18            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I have just one

19    question to ask.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go ahead, Mr. Krstan

21    Simic.

22                          Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

23       Q.   Mr. Delic, did you have occasion to learn whether a request of

24    that kind was sent to the Ministry, by the procedure you have just

25    explained?

Page 9188

 1       A.   During my mandate, we did not because there was no need to.

 2            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Any of the other counsel?  No?

 4    I see negative signs.

 5            The Prosecution, and it is Ms. Susan Somers, I believe, who is

 6    going to cross-examine this witness.

 7            Mr. Delic, you will now be answering questions put to you by

 8    Ms. Susan Somers.  Your witness, Ms. Somers.

 9                          Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:

10       Q.   Mr. Delic, in 1992, there was a decision taken by the Crisis

11    Staff, was there not, let's say between May and July, that appointed you

12    to a position of acting principal of the high school; is that correct?

13       A.   No, I was not the principal of the primary school but of the high

14    school, the secondary school.

15       Q.   I believe that's what I asked you.  So you were appointed as

16    acting principal of the high school in May 1992; right?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   You were an educator; is that correct?

19       A.   Professor.

20       Q.   An educator.  You have never had a day of police training in your

21    life; is that correct?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   No, you have not had, or no, you have had.  Have you ever had a

24    day of police training in your life?

25       A.   No, I have not.

Page 9189












12  Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13  and English transcripts.













Page 9190

 1       Q.   You were an active SDS member, were you not?  Very active in

 2    Prijedor.

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   You received your appointment to the job succeeding Simo Drljaca

 5    because of your political SDS appointment -- I'm sorry, connections, not

 6    because of police training; is that not a fact?

 7       A.   That is not how it was.  I was on the battlefield in 1992.  In

 8    1993, up till the end -- up to the end of May.  And through the media I

 9    learned that I was a candidate put forward to perform the function of

10    chief of the police station in Prijedor.  It wasn't along political

11    lines.  I was not an active member.  I was just a member of the League of

12    Communists until 1990; I had been a member for 20 years.  And after the

13    end of my political activity within the League of Communists, I

14    voluntarily stepped down from the League of Communists.  I was no longer a

15    member, nor was I a member of any other party or appeared as such

16    anywhere.  I was probably nominated because I learnt from the newspapers

17    that there were to be some changes, and I learnt that I was probably put

18    forward for my human qualities.  I was the principal of secondary schools

19    for ten years; I was a teacher, a professor, for 15 years.  Somebody must

20    have remembered my name and put me forward, and that's how I was elected.

21    I took on the job in order to calm the situation.  I thought that it would

22    be easier for me doing that rather than being on the battlefield.

23       Q.   What street did you live on in 1991, please?  Let's say in June of

24    1991.

25       A.   In 1991, where I live today and where I lived in 1985, and that is

Page 9191

 1    Pecani H 36, fourth floor or Petra Zimonjica Mitropolita Street.

 2            MS. SOMERS:  I would ask the usher, for just a moment, to put on

 3    an exhibit that I do not intend to seek admission on, just to put it on

 4    the ELMO.  It is from the Prijedor collection.

 5       Q.   I just want to ask you a question about it, please.  The document

 6    is in Serbo-Croat.  It is a document, at the top -- excuse me.  Could you

 7    move it down just a little bit, Mr. Usher?  Just a tiny bit.  It is dated

 8    24 June, 1991, and it refers to, does it not, members of the municipality

 9    of Prijedor in the SDS.  Is that your name at the bottom of that list?

10    Just yes or no.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

12            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I merely wish to draw the Court's

13    attention to the fact that when I did this same thing yesterday with the

14    marriage certificate of the witness, Ms. Susan Somers objected.  But as I

15    am chivalrous and a gentleman, I am not going to do that.  I am just going

16    to draw the attention of the Court to this.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.

18            MS. SOMERS:  Actually, Your Honour, my recollection is that we did

19    not object to it being used in the testimony.  We asked questions from it

20    as well.  Mr. Fila volunteered to not seek admission until he brought an

21    original, but we had no objection whatsoever to questioning from it.  I'm

22    not asking to admit this document.  I'd just like to have a question

23    answered from the document.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  But would you remind me of

25    yesterday's context?  What was the objective of your objection yesterday

Page 9192

 1    with respect to the document, the marriage certificate, that was shown,

 2    the marriage certificate?

 3            MS. SOMERS:  Excuse me, Your Honour, for interrupting you.  I

 4    don't recall raising an objection.  We asked questions from it.  It was at

 5    the end of the session yesterday where Mr. Fila made an announcement.  I

 6    recall no objection whatsoever, to be honest with you.  I can check the

 7    record that we used the document as well.  And he had concerns about its

 8    possible validity.  We had no problem.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but Mr. Fila will remind us

10    of that now.

11            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers objected and said that I

12    submitted the document in one copy and that I'm asking the witness

13    questions about a document that the Prosecution has not seen, had a chance

14    to see.  Similarly, none of us have seen this document, nor have we been

15    given copies of the document.  All I wish to say is that she should not do

16    what she has objected to me doing.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I had that in mind but I

18    did not want to put that forward.  Would it be possible for the Defence to

19    see this document, Ms. Somers?  Because we have to clear up a matter.

20    When I say "you," you, both parties, when you're using a document, you

21    should either show it to the other side or not use it.  You can use

22    documents and ask questions about them, but could you please show the

23    document to both sides; that is to say, could you now show the document to

24    Mr. Fila?

25            MS. SOMERS:  Yes, Your Honour.  The only copy I have at this time

Page 9193

 1    is what is on the ELMO.  But if I may let the Court know, there was a

 2    66(B) request and that was the subject of yesterdays discussion.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Somers, but even the

 4    Judges would like to see the document at least.  So the document can be

 5    circulated, if you permit.  All we need is to take a look at the document

 6    and we'll hand it back to you.  Is that possible?

 7            MS. SOMERS:  Your Honour, I'd be very happy to.  I'm sorry.  We

 8    have a technical glitch.  Our trial support person is supposed to be

 9    bringing down copies for everyone and they have not arrived.  So having

10    advanced rather quickly, I do not have extra copies.  I would be delighted

11    to give up my copy but that's all I have with me in court now, waiting for

12    the copies.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I too would like to have a look

14    at the document.

15            Mr. Usher, could you show the Judges the document, please, and the

16    Defence as well.

17            Excuse me.  Usher, other counsel, please.  Mr. Krstan Simic and

18    then other counsel too.

19            Right.  Ms. Susan Somers, you may ask your question.

20            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you very much.

21       Q.   Mr. Delic, if you would be kind enough to -- thank you very much.

22    Just a quick question about that document.  In June of 1991, did you have

23    any particularly high position in the SDS, or were you simply a member?

24       A.   I wasn't a member, nor did I have a high position.  I was a

25    principal of a secondary school.  Let me just give you an example.

Page 9194

 1       Q.   That's okay.

 2       A.   There is a --

 3       Q.   I would like to move on.  We have very little time.  Thank you.

 4       A.   You can see that this is not --

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm going to intervene.

 6    Ms. Somers, I believe that I heard from the witness that he was a member

 7    of the League of Communists and that after that he was not a member of any

 8    other party.  And you asked him, "Did you have any particularly high

 9    position in the SDS?"

10            MS. SOMERS:

11       Q.   If I may be permitted to backtrack and ask if the name Bogdan

12    Delic on this document is a different person from yourself in Prijedor,

13    and is it a very common name?

14       A.   I don't know, but this is not my address, because I live in Pecani

15    H 36/4, or at present at Petra Zimonjica.  It is my first name and last

16    name, but at that time I was the secondary school principal and I wasn't a

17    member of any party.

18       Q.   Do you know any other Bogdan Delics in Prijedor?  Do you know any;

19    yes or no?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Thank you.  I would like to ask you, please, you made a comment --

22    excuse me.  You were asked by Mr. Fila about:  "In the organisation of the

23    police force in general terms, generally speaking, is there a service

24    which could be called shift leader?" and your answer was, "No."

25            I'd like to ask a quick question of you.  Miroslav Kvocka took the

Page 9195

 1    stand recently, and on page -- I'm not sure if it is the official one, but

 2    on the 16th of February, Mr. Kvocka made a comment about changes in the

 3    police service.  He said that Bogdan Delic, who was the chief at that

 4    time, "saw for himself that his work was very good.  And in the next

 5    organisation of the work of the service, there was a decision made whereby

 6    I was appointed to the position of the shift leader at the Police Station

 7    Prijedor 1."

 8            Now, Mr. Kvocka is an experienced police officer.  Is there

 9    something wrong in his description of that position?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   When were you, if at all, in the Omarska camp?  Not the mine

12    before it became the camp, but the camp itself.

13       A.   I don't know.  Never.

14       Q.   Were you not there as a member of Cigo's group in May of 1992?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Are you friendly with Radinovic, Momcilo Radinovic, known as

17    Cigo?  Have you had any dealings with him politically, professionally?

18       A.   Political, no, because I wasn't active in politics.  But I do know

19    him because Momcilo Radinovic was the municipal mayor in 1992/1993, and we

20    knew each other in 1992 -- 1991/1992.

21       Q.   What was your salary when you were a principal for the high

22    school, please?  How much money were you making?

23       A.   Well, it depends.  Salaries varied between 1.000 to 2.000 marks,

24    from 200 marks to, depending on the seniority and on the circumstances.

25    At times the salaries were quite sufficient; at times we barely made the

Page 9196

 1    ends meet.

 2       Q.   What did you do after you were working in the Prijedor police

 3    structure as the chief of police?  What did you do?  Did you go off to

 4    Serbia for awhile?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And did you buy some shops and make some money at working some

 7    shops?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   What did you do there?

10       A.   I worked privately for my living because my son was studying at

11    the university, and my daughter was in secondary school.  And because I

12    was dismissed from work in 1995, I had to begin to work for the public

13    security centre in Prijedor.

14       Q.   You did not buy a butcher shop and run some other shops in

15    Serbia?  Are you sure?

16       A.   I am.

17       Q.   Now, when you decided to give or approve of an award to Mladjo

18    Radic on the -- I guess it's the 11th of August, 1993, that award was

19    because he was such a competent, good policeman, wasn't it?  It was for

20    positive contribution to the police force.

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And how well did you know Radic?

23       A.   Well, I knew him for about a year.  But he was nominated by his

24    colleagues, not by me, his colleagues from Omarska who knew him very well,

25    and his colleagues from the Prijedor Police Station who knew him because

Page 9197

 1    Radic used to work in Ljubija.  And they suggested to me to forward this

 2    nomination to Banja Luka, to the centre, and that is what they did.  And

 3    the centre accepted it and saw it as a positive move on my side, and that

 4    is how it was granted.  It also could have ended in a different way.

 5       Q.   I'm sorry to the interpreters.  Did you know what took place at

 6    Omarska camp and at Keraterm and at Trnopolje and at Manjaca?  Did you

 7    know what took place on the territory over which you had police control?

 8       A.   When I had my term of office with the police, it was quiet and

 9    nothing was happening.  And before that I was not in the area because I

10    was on the front, and therefore I did not know about that.  I know there

11    was a collections centre in Keraterm and Trnopolje and another collection

12    centre in Omarska.  What went on and why, I really did not know.  I was

13    not there and I had no part in it.

14       Q.   Did you make it your business to know, or did you ask your

15    predecessor, Simo Drljaca, who closed those camps once their existence and

16    horrors became known to the International Community?  Did you ask?

17       A.   No, because I wasn't on good terms with Simo.  Simo was the one

18    who dismissed me later.  We did not discuss that.  Simo was in Bijeljina.

19            MS. SOMERS:  No further questions.

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me.  "Simo was killed" was the end of the

21    witness' answer.

22            MS. SOMERS:  I'm sorry -- I'm terribly sorry, Your Honour.  I was

23    misinformed or I misunderstood something from my own team and I wanted to

24    get a document in but I didn't think I had it.  Would the Chamber permit

25    me a minute to show a document that is available to the entire room.  I

Page 9198

 1    was under the impression that it was still upstairs?  No?  Okay.  I'm

 2    sorry.  I'm terribly sorry about that.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Somers, you finished,

 4    so -- and I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to tell you,

 5    yes, I believe that Mr. Fila had objected because yesterday you objected

 6    because the Defence had not given the document to the Prosecution in

 7    advance, so that was that.  And I think we have to maintain the balance.

 8            MS. SOMERS:  In fact, Mr. Fila's people are up reviewing all

 9    of our documents now under 66(B) so it's at our disposal.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right.  But we know that you

11    have somebody to bring the document in and things can work better.

12            Yes, Mr. Fila, do you have any other questions?

13            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour.  I don't

14    have any other questions.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic.

16            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have only two

17    questions.

18                          Further cross-examination by Mr. K. Simic:

19       Q.   Mr. Delic, in the police system, is there a job called the shift

20    leader?

21            And in your job assignment system, does it say what this person is

22    responsible for?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   And do these rule also envisage what does a -- what conditions

25    need to be met so that the responsible person in the Ministry appoints a

Page 9199

 1    person to that particular workplace?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I have no

 4    further questions.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 6            Judge Riad, do you have any questions?

 7                          Questioned by the Court:

 8            JUDGE RIAD:  Mr. Delic, good morning.

 9       A.   Good morning.

10            JUDGE RIAD:  You hear me?

11       A.   Yes, I can hear you.

12            JUDGE RIAD:  Perhaps you are in a position, owing to the important

13    position you were in, to answer my general request.  In case of a

14    violation committed by the command, you spoke about the command -- the

15    change of the command structure should be done by the Ministry of Internal

16    Affairs, and so on.  In case of a violation committed by one of the

17    commanders, what are the possibilities given to the subordinate people

18    under him to take action or to react?

19       A.   Well, these possibilities were very limited.  A suggestion,

20    proposal, could be made to the higher instance to take appropriate

21    measures against such persons, and how that would be done or not, because

22    one did not necessarily have to believe them.  They did not have any

23    direct contact, so that they could do very little.

24            JUDGE RIAD:  If they resigned, could they be in danger?

25       A.   Well, anything may happen.  Depends on the circumstances.

Page 9200

 1    Criminal charges could be brought against them for the infraction of the

 2    Rules of Service.  For instance, they could also be brought to account,

 3    why they had done this or that.

 4            JUDGE RIAD:  And during the period during which you were in

 5    office, did anybody react against anything or resign or make a report

 6    concerning a violation, whether in the Omarska camp or anything under your

 7    supervision?

 8       A.   Well, I had nothing to do with the Omarska camp at that time so I

 9    really don't know.  I'm not aware of that.

10            JUDGE RIAD:  In general, not necessarily in Omarska.

11       A.   I don't know that anyone resigned.  At the time when I was the

12    chief, there was no need for that because the situation was quite

13    satisfactory.  It was quiet.

14            JUDGE RIAD:  And you were the chief until 1995?

15       A.   Between 1993 -- 1993 and 1994.

16            JUDGE RIAD:  You said that Simo Drljaca dismissed you, I think, in

17    1995.  Was that right?

18       A.   That's right.

19            JUDGE RIAD:  Could he dismiss anybody without reason, or was there

20    some kind of motivation?

21       A.   He submitted a proposal to the Ministry to dismiss me.  Why he did

22    that, I do not know.  But be that as it may, I was dismissed.

23            JUDGE RIAD:  Because you mentioned before that only the Ministry

24    of Internal Affairs was capable of making these changes.  So it's the

25    whole -- it seems like a long process which is examined.  So did they --

Page 9201

 1    were they -- were you, not accused, but did they take anything against

 2    you?

 3       A.   Well, I don't know.  I was put on the waiting list on the 15th of

 4    May, 1994, and I was on the waiting list until the 2nd of February, 1995,

 5    when I received the decision that my contract was terminated in August and

 6    that there was no need for it, that I was completely laid off.  But I

 7    filed charges against them and I won the case, and the judgement was

 8    passed in 1996.  But I was returned to my job in 1998, only as late as

 9    1998.

10            JUDGE RIAD:  Now, you spoke of the award which was given to

11    Mr. Radic, and you mentioned it was for his work in general and his work

12    during 1993.  Did this also -- was this also a reward for his attitude,

13    for his work in the Omarska camp?

14       A.   No, it has nothing to do with Omarska.  It was for his 20 years of

15    work experience.  At the time when I was his chief, his colleagues

16    favourably spoke about his work during those 20 years, and they nominated

17    him and intended it also as a kind of financial assistance.

18            JUDGE RIAD:  Was he at the Omarska camp at that time, when he got

19    the award?

20       A.   No.

21            JUDGE RIAD:  Thank you very much.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

23    Riad.

24            Judge Wald.

25            JUDGE WALD:  Mr. Delic, I have a few questions and they're all

Page 9202

 1    about the award.

 2            When you submitted or passed on the proposal from Mr. Radic's

 3    colleagues for the award, did you know that he had been a guard at Omarska

 4    camp?

 5       A.   Well, I did not take note of what went on in Omarska camp, and I

 6    assume that all the policemen were there to provide security for people

 7    who were in the camp in Omarska, because that was the area covered by

 8    their police station.  So that I assumed that Mladjo Radic was also there

 9    as a guard.

10            JUDGE WALD:  Now, when a proposal would come from a police

11    station, or a department, rather, that was in your jurisdiction for you to

12    look at and pass on to the Banja Luka authorities, was any investigation

13    ever made, or did you just look at the fact that colleagues in the

14    policeman's station had proposed him and on that basis alone you might

15    pass it on? Did you do any investigation of your own to see whether this

16    was a person who indeed was good enough and merited the award or had

17    nothing in his background to suggest that he shouldn't get the award?  Did

18    you just pass it through, or did you do some looking at the person?

19       A.   Well, I checked it.  Every employee in the police has his file, so

20    I went through the file.  And there are also commissions which nominate

21    people for various awards.  I also talked to his superior and the

22    commander of the police station in Prijedor and my assistant, and they all

23    had a favourable opinion of him.  And on the basis of this, and they

24    agreed and I agreed and we all agreed that I could sign it and forward it

25    to Banja Luka as our nomination.  And Mladjo wasn't the only one.

Page 9203

 1            JUDGE WALD:  Fine.  If I understand you correctly, in the course

 2    of the checking that you just did, you talked to Mr. Meakic; is that

 3    right?  Mr. Meakic was then the police chief or commander of the station.

 4    Were you aware that he had also been the commander of the camp?

 5       A.   Not of the station.

 6            JUDGE WALD:  Well, of the Omarska -- at various times it was

 7    departments and station.  But whatever it was, you did talk to him and get

 8    his approval, as it were, for passing it on.  He thought it was a good

 9    idea.  You checked with him; is that right?

10       A.   The commander of the station department, Meakic, talked to his

11    employees in the department, and they all agreed, after discussion, to

12    nominate Mladjo Radic.  And then it reached me -- or, rather, their

13    commander, the police station commander in Prijedor who is responsible

14    for their department, and during this contact and the communication with

15    the commander of the police station in Prijedor, we took over the

16    documentation, the files, went through the files and saw that there were

17    no adverse opinions about Mladjo Radic.  And then we decided to forward

18    that nomination to Banja Luka.

19            JUDGE WALD:  So, in short, at some point, Mr. Meakic's opinion was

20    sought, too, as his commander.

21       A.   Yes.

22            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  Do you happen to remember the names of any of

23    the colleague policemen who initiated or supported or whose names were on

24    the proposal for Mr. Radic to get the award?

25       A.   No.

Page 9204

 1            JUDGE WALD:  You don't remember the names of any of the people who

 2    actually --

 3       A.   No.  It was not in writing.  The proposal was not in writing.

 4            JUDGE WALD:  Well, what was it?  Maybe you'll explain it.  How did

 5    it come to you if it didn't come in writing?

 6       A.   The document in writing was brought by the commander of the

 7    station's department Meakic, and they discussed in their department about

 8    whom to nominate.

 9            JUDGE WALD:  So Meakic came to you and orally told you about the

10    colleagues or the policemen supporting Mr. Radic for this award, right?

11    That's where you got your information from was Mr. Meakic; is that what I

12    understand?

13       A.   During the meetings which were held on Mondays, I informed

14    commanders of stations that they should nominate from their departments

15    and stations a certain number of people for awards, for people who had

16    successfully worked for 10 or 20 years.  Mladjo Radic had already had 20

17    years' seniority, and his nomination was discussed in his police

18    department in Omarska, and they decided that they could, indeed, nominate

19    him.

20            I went along with this, and in agreement with the police station

21    in Prijedor, we also considered those nominations and nominations from

22    other departments and other stations.

23            JUDGE WALD:  All right.  My last question:  Did you ever see

24    the -- was the award that was --

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me for interrupting you,

Page 9205

 1    but I see Ms. Susan Somers on her feet.

 2            JUDGE WALD:  Go ahead.

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Ms. Somers, please.

 4            MS. SOMERS:  I apologise for this interruption, but I have to

 5    state, in the interests of justice for the Court, the Court is now

 6    questioning on a document that I wanted very much to try to get before the

 7    Court, even if not admitted, at least identified --

 8            JUDGE WALD:  I think I understand.  I think my own memory suggests

 9    to me that in prior testimony before this Court, the subject came up.  I

10    would like to just continue with my question as if you hadn't even gotten

11    up.

12            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you very much.

13            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  My question for you was:  Did you ever see the

14    piece of paper that stated the award that finally went to Mr. Radic?  In

15    other words, did you ever see the award, the document, the award document

16    that went to Mr. Radic?  Did that ever come to your attention?  Whatever

17    they presented him at the time they gave him the 50 Deutschemarks, to your

18    knowledge, did they also present him -- you usually get a document which

19    says you've gotten this award for being so good, et cetera.  Did you ever

20    see any document that was his final award?

21       A.   Those documents were delivered to the police on the police day, on

22    the 21st of November, and they were handed to them personally by the

23    police commander.

24            JUDGE WALD:  Right, fine.  Did you ever see the document that was

25    handed to Mr. Radic?

Page 9206

 1       A.   I did not see the document.

 2            JUDGE WALD:  So you don't know what it said on the document as to

 3    why he was getting the award.

 4       A.   We had received a cable from the Minister, from the chief of the

 5    centre in Banja Luka.  We received a dispatch which said that the

 6    nominations are agreed upon and that they would be getting 50 German

 7    marks.  And there was a list of names in this dispatch, the list of names

 8    of people, of men, who had been awarded, the list of persons.

 9            JUDGE WALD:  But you didn't see the actual award certificate.  You

10    did not see the actual award certificate that Mr. Radic received; is that

11    right?  You don't know what it said on it.

12       A.   No.

13            JUDGE WALD:  All right.  My last question, then.  In the material

14    that you forwarded to the officials in Banja Luka with the proposal for

15    Mr. Radic to receive the awards, there were papers, you told us,

16    that you were forwarded to the Banja Luka authorities who were going to

17    make the final decision; correct?

18       A.   Yes.

19            JUDGE WALD:  In those papers that you forwarded, was there any

20    reference to Mr. Radic's service in the Omarska camp as opposed to his

21    service in the Omarska Police Station?  Any reference at all in those

22    papers that you remember and that you forwarded to the Banja Luka

23    authorities?

24       A.   As far as I can remember, I think it said for his successful work

25    over the past 20 years, that is, between 1976 and 1993, and his

Page 9207

 1    participation in providing security for persons and property, and that

 2    would cover the Omarska camp because he took part in the guarding of the

 3    camp.  And I believe he did it very successfully, at least on the basis of

 4    what I knew.  I do not -- I think he performed his job properly,

 5    diligently, as a true professional policeman.  I think he discharged all

 6    the jobs that were assigned him.

 7            JUDGE WALD:  Let me just undergird [sic] this last question, and

 8    it's just a yes or no question.  In your memory, do you remember, in those

 9    papers that were forwarded to Banja Luka, any specific, specific

10    reference to his service in the Omarska camp?

11       A.   I don't remember.  I mean, I guess that the text also included the

12    security and work in Omarska.  I think it said for the successful work in

13    providing security for persons and property and the camp in Omarska.

14            JUDGE WALD:  Thank you.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

16    Wald.

17            Mr. Delic, I have a simple question.  You mentioned that there

18    were simply ordinary policemen.  Other people also spoke about ordinary

19    policemen, policemen on the beat.  What does that mean?

20       A.   Well, an ordinary policemen is a policemen who performs his tasks

21    and assignments on the ground and is responsible for that; that is, he is

22    in charge of gathering information relative to the security of persons, to

23    protect property and persons, but does not have any other responsibility

24    except to report to his superior about all that he learns on the ground;

25    that is, he performs the simplest, the most ordinary, the commonest

Page 9208

 1    tasks.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But the expression "ordinary,"

 3    "common policeman," is there a difference between an ordinary and a common

 4    policeman?

 5       A.   Well, we're all responsible policemen.  We're all responsible

 6    policemen.  If we perform our jobs responsibly, if we are covering the

 7    ground, then an ordinary policeman must report about that, must submit his

 8    accounts.  Everybody has to do that.  But he is not the superior.  He

 9    cannot take any decisions without his superiors.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question.  This wording,

11    ordinary policeman, common policeman, do you find it in the rules?  Is

12    that an officer, a law enforcement officer?  What kind of officer is that?

13      Is it in the rules?

14       A.   Well, no, you won't find the word "ordinary" or "common"; you will

15    find the word "policeman."  But by this we mean because if there is a

16    policeman with specific responsibilities and a policeman who can be a

17    superior and a policeman who is not a superior.  A common policeman is not

18    an officer. He cannot issue an order; that is, he may order citizens to

19    remove something or whatever, but he cannot issue orders to other

20    policemen.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right.  If I understand you

22    well, this word "ordinary policeman," that is not an official term, and

23    the police use this word in order to make a distinction between different

24    levels of responsibility within the police force itself; is that it?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9209

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right.  Very well, very well.

 2    Thank you very much.

 3            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, excuse me, Mr. Simic, I

 5    believe that Judge Riad has another question, but we shall then adjourn.

 6            JUDGE RIAD:  Mr. Delic, in your answer to my colleague Judge Wald,

 7    you mentioned that the award also included the successful work in

 8    Omarska.  First, did other people working in Omarska receive an award to

 9    your knowledge, or was Mr. Radic the only one who got an award?

10       A.   No, Radic was not awarded for Omarska, let us make that quite

11    clear.  Radic was awarded for 20 years for successful work, between 1972

12    and 1993, and that was the first time that we marked the police day, the

13    21st of November.  He was the man with the longer service in the police

14    work there, and therefore he was awarded.

15            JUDGE RIAD:  I just wanted to know what you meant by successful

16    work in Omarska.  What did you mean by successful work in Omarska, as a

17    concentration [Realtime transcript read in error "camp"] camp?

18       A.   I was not in Omarska at the time, and I was not a superior there

19    at the time, but I assumed that all the policemen from the Omarska

20    department took part in the security duties in Omarska, the protection of

21    people.  And from what I know, they did it all very correctly and

22    professionally.

23            JUDGE RIAD:  Thank you very much.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.

25            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9210

 1       Q.   Mr. Delic --

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, excuse me, what is it that

 3    you want in the first place?  What is it that you want?  Why are you on

 4    your feet?

 5            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] His Honour, Judge Riad, asked the

 6    witness a question related to the consequences about the dismissal of the

 7    police at the time, and I wanted to ask a question of the witness in this

 8    regard.

 9            JUDGE RIAD:  Excuse me.  There is just a word missing in the

10    transcript.  I asked, "What did you mean by successful work in Omarska as

11    a concentration camp," and they didn't write the word "concentration."  I

12    want it to be added.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] However, I think there were

14    several interruptions, and I believe that some discipline in our work

15    would be in order.

16            Mr. Simic was speaking.  So, Mr. Simic, you will complete what you

17    had to say.  I understood that there was a question derived from

18    Judge Riad's question, but we have to finish, but do ask your question.

19                          Further cross-examination by Mr. K. Simic:

20       Q.   Mr. Delic, under the conditions of a war, had a policeman under

21    any rank, if he was militarily able, could the police submit his

22    resignation, or could he have been thrown out of the police?  What could

23    have happened to him?

24       A.   Well, it is more than likely that he would have been sent to the

25    front line, and criminal charges would have been filed against such

Page 9211

 1    policemen.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, did you also want to

 3    ask an additional question?

 4            MS. SOMERS:  It would have gone back, Your Honour, to a question

 5    raised by Her Honour Judge Wald, if I'm permitted.  If not -- no.  Thank

 6    you.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No.  Ms. Somers, I was asking

 8    you if you have any question that derives from Mr. Simic's question.  Is

 9    that how I understand it, that you do not have a question that derives

10    from Mr. Simic's question?

11            MS. SOMERS:  I do not.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

13            Mr. Fila.

14            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Ms. Somers -- we've

15    agreed with Ms. Somers not to use the word "concentration camp" because

16    the order issued when the Omarska camp was set up was the investigation

17    camp, and I do not know how Judge Riad can insist that it was a

18    concentration camp.  I believe that you will decide on this in your

19    judgement.   But at any rate, this is untimely to do that.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right, Mr. Fila.  We are not

21    deciding now yes or no.  That is what you said, and the transcript speaks

22    for itself.

23            Ms. Somers, what was your question which derived from the Judge's

24    question?  I believe you said that you might have a question which would

25    be a follow-up on a question asked by Judge Wald.

Page 9212

 1            MS. SOMERS:  Your Honour, it would require identifying a document

 2    and just making sure that the particular theme of conversation that was

 3    the subject of Judge Wald's questions is the same document I'm looking

 4    to.  Just document identification.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you have the document?

 6            MS. SOMERS:  I do.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Then perhaps the usher could

 8    show it to us, and Judge Wald could see the document.

 9            MS. SOMERS:  This document has been provided to the Defence much

10    earlier, and this --

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, will you please ...

12            MS. SOMERS:  Your Honours, if the Defence does wish an extra copy

13    for now, there is no problem.  We have ...

14            Mr. Usher, if I may ask you to distribute -- we have extra copies

15    for the Defence, please.  Thank you.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, I ask you only to

17    show the document to Judge Wald.  This is not now the time to distribute

18    the document to other parties.

19            MS. SOMERS:  I beg your pardon, Your Honour.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We always want to benefit from

21    something, something that was not said that it will be done.  So

22    therefore --

23            MS. SOMERS:  My apologies, Your Honour.  My fault entirely.

24            JUDGE WALD:  Let me just clarify.  I simply asked the witness

25    questions about what he remembered was in the document, which he answered

Page 9213

 1    on the spot.  True, many months ago, we had some testimony about a

 2    document like this, but I did not have it in front of me so I was not

 3    referring to a specific document that I could identify at the time.  I was

 4    asking him cold a question about what was in the document, which he

 5    answered.  So I don't think it's particularly relevant to identify a

 6    particular document.

 7            MS. SOMERS:  All right.  Then I should -- that's fine.  My

 8    question is --

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right, Ms. Somers, we shall now

10    return the document, and that will be the end of it.

11            MS. SOMERS:  I'll leave it for later.  I'll just hang onto it.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  We shall -- this

13    testimony is now over.  Mr. Delic, we have no further questions for you.

14    Thank you very much for coming here.  I wish you a happy return to your

15    home and your place of work.  Thank you.  The usher will help you.

16                          [The witness withdrew]

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  We shall now adjourn

18    for 50 minutes.  I believe we all need a break.  Fifty minutes.

19                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.10 p.m.

20                          --- On resuming at 2.01 p.m.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

22            Mr. Fila.

23            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before I call the next

24    witness, allow me to make a point.  A small problem has arisen linked to

25    the translation and differences in languages.  The interpreters have drawn

Page 9214

 1    my attention to this, and I think that the Prosecution has been informed,

 2    as have Your Honours.

 3            At one point, I asked the previous witness, Mr. Delic, whether

 4    there was razvodnik straze or guard shift leader in the police.  It is a

 5    military term.  It is a person who takes the guards from one position to

 6    another.  That applies to the military.  And the question was whether such

 7    a position existed in the police.  His answer was no.  However, in the

 8    English transcript, his answer appeared to be that there were no shift

 9    leaders in the police, which is not my question nor was it his answer.

10            So as not to call in question the credibility of the witness, and

11    as far as I know in a similar case, I think it was the Celebici trial, the

12    tape was reviewed, the audiotape, and then it was established what exactly

13    was asked and what the exact answer was.  So I should like to appeal to

14    you that something similar be done in this case; otherwise, we have three

15    different answers.  Because, as you know, I'm listening to the French

16    interpretation, and there the interpretation was different again.  So

17    thank you.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.

19            MS. SOMERS:  Your Honour, that particular term that was used in

20    B/C/S has been the subject of discussion with the head of the -- the

21    English B/C/S translation services, Mrs. Tina Zoric, and in fact the

22    determination by Translation Services is that in the context of

23    discussions involving Radic, because that's where it came up, that the

24    correct translation is "shift leader."  The use of military terms have

25    been, for one reason or another, interjected into the vocabulary, but they

Page 9215

 1    have made their own philological, linguistic determination that that is

 2    correct.  And if the Chamber would wish to have Mrs. Zoric address it

 3    about that, I can only relate what has already come up because we have

 4    discussed this in connection with another document.  I informed the

 5    individual from Translation Services who approached me and asked her also

 6    to confirm this with Mrs. Zoric, and I'm sure Mrs. Zoric would be happy to

 7    explain it to the Chamber.

 8            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Personally, I think that all we need to

 9    do is for the interpreters to check the audiotape, they will hear the

10    question I put to the witness - I used the words "razvodnik straze" - and

11    that will be heard on the audiotape.  My question was razvodnik straze,

12    it was not shift leader.  It is not shift leader as Ms. Susan Somers is

13    saying.  That is not the same thing.  Though in Serbian we have one term

14    called razvodnik straze, and the other term which is sef smene.  So the

15    only way to resolve the issues is for the interpreters to listen to the

16    tape and report to us about what they heard tomorrow.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Regarding this suggestion of

18    Mr. Fila's, what is your reaction, Ms. Susan Somers?

19            MS. SOMERS:  My reaction, Your Honour, is that it will make no

20    difference if they hear "razvodnik straze," because that is exactly what

21    Mrs. Zoric heard and her indication to the OTP is that that means shift

22    leader.  So even if it's played back -- I think it would be helpful to

23    just know that that, in fact, was the term used.  The ultimate issue would

24    be for someone whose confidence would exceed certainly mine or Mr. Fila's

25    in matters of language, of origin, and translation to address the Chamber

Page 9216

 1    if it becomes an issue.

 2            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, allow me to explain.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We have to end this discussion,

 4    Mr. Fila.  Otherwise, we'll go on endlessly.

 5            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It is not a question of language.  We

 6    have two different terms here.  There is a term in the military

 7    called "razvodnik straze," and that position does not exist in the police.

 8    These are two different concepts.  It's not a question of translation.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Basically I agree with your

10    suggestion.  Linguistic knowledge of everyone of the B/C/S language is

11    certainly better than mine.  So I think we should hear the interpretation

12    here, and we can also ask the Translation Service to write us a memo which

13    can then be submitted to the parties for discussion.  I think that is the

14    only way of overcoming this problem.  And the Chamber will be able to look

15    at this memo, because I personally, and I speak in my own name, I don't

16    know whether my colleagues wish to make any comments for their part, I

17    would not like to be left with any doubt in my mind.  So the procedure

18    that I would suggest would be, at a certain point this afternoon, that we

19    hear the tape, and if there is a problem, we have to go back to the floor,

20    to the original.  A translation is a translation.  I'm looking at the

21    transcript all the time, and I often see that there is lack of total

22    correspondence to what I have said.  So first of all we have to hear the

23    original.  Then the second step is to take the transcript and submit it to

24    the Translation Service for their opinion.  Then the third step would be

25    to have a memo written by the Translation Service and submitted to the

Page 9217

 1    parties for discussion.  And then the Chamber will have all that in front

 2    of it as guidance.

 3            Do you agree with that, or is there anyone who disagrees?  I see

 4    Mr. Simic.

 5            MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid that we're

 6    simplifying the problem.  We're talking about a linguistic issue here, as

 7    Mr. Fila just said.  But the substance of Mr. Fila's objection, which I

 8    share because this is a general point, that the task, that the work post

 9    of a guard shift leader or razvodnik straze is entirely different from

10    the work duties of a shift leader in the police.  Therefore, even if we

11    resolve the problem linguistically, we have to find out what each of these

12    concepts implies. And then perhaps in the rebuttal a party could bring a

13    witness who could clarify the point.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic, once

15    again I understand your concern, and I think you have a good point.  But

16    we are now at the linguistic level.  The other substantive part of the

17    problem is up to you to show through evidence.  But now what we can do is

18    this, and then the parties will submit their evidence to show this or

19    that, then afterwards we will have the submissions from the record.  But

20    what we have now is doubt regarding linguistics.  As for the contents of

21    that word, that concept, that's another matter.

22            To use linguistics, as you know perhaps better than me, makes a

23    distinction between connotation and denotation.  We know that there are

24    words and there is the meaning of words.  Now we are at the level of words

25    which have a certain content, a certain meaning, a connotation.  This is

Page 9218

 1    something that you raised.  Mr. Fila raised the linguistic aspect and you

 2    are raising the substantive aspect, and these are two different matters.

 3                I see Ms. Susan Somers on her feet.  Do you have anything to

 4    add.

 5            MS. SOMERS:  The Chambers simply asked if the parties were in

 6    accord.  The Prosecution fully respects and supports the suggestion and I

 7    just wanted to let you know that it was, in fact, Mrs. Zoric who was the

 8    person we addressed it to.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Personally, I have a feeling

10    that my colleagues agree, though they haven't expressed themselves, so

11    that will be the decision of the Chamber.  At some point in the afternoon,

12    we will listen to the tape.  We have to identify the place on the tape

13    because we will have to listen again to the original.  So we have to know

14    where it is on the tape in the testimony of Mr. Delic, who raised this

15    question, that is, whether there were guard leaders.  Is that right,

16    Mr. Fila?

17            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  But the razvodnik

18    straze and sef smene are two different concepts.  The razvodnik straze

19    exists in the military and it does not exist in the police.  A shift

20    leader exists in the police but not in the military, not in the army.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm now giving direct

22    instructions to the Registry to be able to find in the transcript this

23    particular passage so that we can listen to it again.

24            Mr. Fila, who is the next witness?

25            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It is Bosiljka Radic.  Could the usher

Page 9219

 1    bring her in, please.

 2                          [The witness entered court]

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Radic.  Can

 4    you hear me?

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.  Good afternoon.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please read the solemn

 7    declaration given to you by the usher, please.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

 9    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                          WITNESS:  BOSILJKA RADIC

11                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may take a seat.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please approach the

15    microphones.  I'm going to ask the usher to lower them a little.  For the

16    moment, you will be answering questions put to you by Mr. Fila.

17            Mr. Fila, your witness.

18                          Examined by Mr. Fila:

19       Q.   Mrs. Radic, could you tell us when you were born and where?

20       A.   I was born on the 25th of February, 1957, in Ljeskari, near

21    Prijedor.

22       Q.   Where are you living now?

23       A.   I'm living in Prijedor.

24       Q.   What is Mladjo Radic to you?

25       A.   He's my husband.

Page 9220

 1       Q.   How long have you been married?

 2       A.   We have been married since 1974.

 3       Q.   How many children do you have?

 4       A.   We have three sons.

 5       Q.   Who were born when?

 6       A.   The oldest, on the 25th of June, 1975; the second, on the 30th of

 7    December, 1978; and the third and youngest, on the 27th of July, 1986.

 8       Q.   Could you tell us a few words about relationships between you and

 9    your husband and your family members?

10       A.   All I can say is that we never had any problems.  We lived for

11    ourselves and our children, and we got on very well as a family.

12       Q.   Did you have amongst your friends people of different religions

13    and ethnicity?

14       A.   Yes.  We always had people of different ethnicities.  We never

15    made any distinctions among them; that applies to myself and my husband.

16    We even had kums who were Muslims.

17       Q.   Did you have a Muslim for a kum?

18       A.   Yes, I did.

19       Q.   Does the family name Denic mean anything to you?

20       A.   Yes.  They were our kums.  And we really got on extremely well

21    together, we exchanged visits, and to this day we are in touch with that

22    family.  And we assisted them during the war in every way possible.

23       Q.   What ethnicity are they?

24       A.   They are Muslims or Bosniaks, whatever you prefer.

25       Q.   Do you see that lady nowadays too?

Page 9221

 1       A.   Yes, of course.  Senada Denic, she's my kuma.  We met here for the

 2    first time last year in The Hague.  We had a conversation.  She thanked me

 3    for certain things that we did for them, both me and my husband, and we

 4    got on very well.

 5       Q.   Does she come to visit you?

 6       A.   Yes.  Whenever she comes to Bosnia, she's my guest in Prijedor.

 7       Q.   Did she sometimes talk to your husband when she visited?

 8       A.   Yes.  Once or twice he happened to call on the telephone and she

 9    wanted to talk to him, and they exchanged a few words.  And she even told

10    me that when he came here, she wanted to visit him but she was not allowed

11    to do that.

12       Q.   Did Mladjo Radic help her and her child in an incident?

13       A.   Yes, he helped her a great deal, because on one occasion the

14    children were playing on the scaffolds of a building and the child fell

15    from a balcony.  The military ambulance was there and was driving him to

16    the hospital.  The car, the vehicle broke down, and somebody, Nedjo Delic,

17    who had a cafe there called up the police station and informed my

18    husband, because our kuma asked him to find Mladjo Radic.  And then he

19    called up the emergency service, as he couldn't go there personally, and

20    they put the child up in the hospital.  Then he talked to a doctor in

21    Banja Luka called Predrag Rosic to assist the child as best they could.

22    And she's grateful to me for this.

23            And the next day again my husband went there to give her some food

24    and money, because the daughter called me up and told me, "My mother has

25    nothing on her," and he received his salary that day.  He took all that

Page 9222

 1    money - I don't remember exactly how much it was - a parcel of food.  He

 2    couldn't stay there long.  He just gave her these things at the bus

 3    station and returned home.

 4       Q.   Do you know Sadiha Cesic?

 5       A.   Yes, I do, very well.

 6       Q.   And her son?

 7       A.   Yes.  We used to work together in the mine.  I worked in the

 8    kitchen and he worked at the petrol station.

 9       Q.   Did she, on one occasion, call you?

10       A.   Yes.  A few days later, she called me up and asked for my husband,

11    as she had heard that he was working there and she wanted to get in touch

12    with him to send something for her brothers.  However, a couple of days

13    later, she came and they went there to visit her brothers, and she

14    regularly took them food.

15       Q.   Were her brothers detained in the investigations centre in

16    Omarska?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   One or several brothers?

19       A.   One or two.  I'm not quite sure.  I just remembered her saying, "I

20    have brothers there," or a brother.

21       Q.   Thank you very much.  Let me now draw your attention to something

22    else.  During your lifetime, did you have any employment in the Omarska

23    mine?

24       A.   I worked in the canteen at the Separacija, where the food was

25    prepared, so that I never went to the place where the camp was.  I just

Page 9223












12  Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13  and English transcripts.













Page 9224

 1    sent cooked food there.

 2       Q.   I wanted to ask you something else.  When did you start working

 3    there, before the camp was established?

 4       A.   In 1985.

 5       Q.   At that same Separacija, in the same kitchen?

 6       A.   Yes.  And when the conflicts broke out, I had work obligation and

 7    I had to work.

 8       Q.   When that investigations centre was closed, did you remain working

 9    there?

10       A.   Yes.  For a certain time I did.

11       Q.   Throughout those three different periods, that is, before the

12    investigations centre was formed, during its existence, and after it was

13    disbanded, which water did you use in the Separacija, in the kitchen, for

14    drinking and for food preparation?

15       A.   There was only one kind of water and we all used that water.

16    There was only one type of water through the water supply system,

17    and that's the only water that we all used for drinking and for cooking.

18       Q.   So you used that same water before the existence of the

19    investigations centre, during its existence, and after it ceased to

20    exist.

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Let me now ask you something about the food preparation while the

23    investigations centre was operational.

24       A.   At first it was prepared in vast quantities and on a regular

25    basis.  There was one meal at first, and at first a quarter of a loaf of

Page 9225

 1    bread for everyone.

 2       Q.   What do you mean "at the beginning"?

 3       A.   Because our food supplies were better at the beginning.  Later on

 4    there were shortages.  But we did our best, what we could.  There was a

 5    shortage of spices, but in any event it was cooked.  The meal was a cooked

 6    meal.

 7       Q.   What you prepared in the kitchen, who was it intended for?

 8       A.   For the army, for the investigations centre, and for the

 9    investigators and the security.

10       Q.   Which groups received the same food and which groups special

11    food?

12       A.   It was the same food for the army, for the military, and for the

13    investigations centre, except for the interrogators.  They had slightly

14    better meals.  For them, it was specially prepared.  As for security

15    people, they usually had dry lunch packets in the evening, as we call

16    them, sandwiches.

17       Q.   And during the daytime, did the security personnel eat the same

18    food as the detainees?

19       A.   I think so, because there was no other food available.  In those

20    conditions, it was simply not possible to make distinctions.

21       Q.   To summarise this, you participated in the preparation of the food

22    and you know that it was taken for the army and for the investigations

23    centre.

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Did you ever go with that food there to see it being distributed?

Page 9226

 1       A.   No, we never went, because we had to work on the food preparation

 2    because these were large quantities.  But there were some women there who

 3    distributed the food and then they just sent us back the empty dishes that

 4    we had to wash, so that we were working all day long.

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  The containers rather than dishes.

 6            MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

 7       Q.   So you cannot tell us how many detainees there were, nor whether

 8    the food was sufficient for all of them.

 9       A.   No, I can't.  It was not something that I had insight into.

10       Q.   At some period of time while you were working in that kitchen, and

11    during the existence of the investigations centre, did you see any women

12    who were detained there and who came to where you were?

13       A.   Yes.  At the very beginning, a group of women came to our canteen

14    or dining room.  We didn't even know who they were.  We sat together.  Who

15    brought them there, we didn't know.  They were alone.  And when we'd

16    finished our work and washed up everything, we sat down and had coffee

17    together.  We talked.  So we got on quite well.  I don't know their

18    names.  I know that among them some women like Jadranka Cigelj, they

19    called her Koka, I didn't know it was Jadranka, but later on I knew her by

20    her nickname.  There was Koka, [redacted]

21    [redacted]

22    them only had the best to say about my husband.  And when we asked her how

23    they were, they said, "We have particular support when Mladjo Radic is on

24    duty," and we smiled, laughed.  And she said, "Why are you laughing?" and

25    I said, "Well, that is my husband."  And she said, "He is a really good

Page 9227

 1    man who is always ready to help and bring things if we ask him to."

 2       Q.   Did you help them with food?

 3       A.   Of course.  We had coffee together; we talked.  They begged us to

 4    help them because they were bored.  They wanted to work for us and we said

 5    we couldn't do that.  But we could sit down, have some coffee, and

 6    talk.  And when they left, each one of them had somebody there, a brother

 7    or a husband, and "could you give us some food," and we said yes and we'd

 8    give them some food that we had when they went back.

 9       Q.   Were there any people from Ljubija in the investigations centre?

10       A.   You mean who used to work there?

11       Q.   No, no, people who lived in Ljubija and who were detained in

12    Omarska.

13       A.   Yes, there were people from Ljubija, because they knew both me and

14    my husband.  We had lived in Ljubija for 10 or 15 years.  They all knew us

15    so they all addressed both him and me.

16       Q.   You mean when you were at home or in the camp?

17       A.   No, while we were in the camp.  As I was working in the mine, they

18    knew me too.  So they would send messages to me via my husband to send

19    some food when I could.  When I was sending food for the security staff,

20    then I would add, if I could, some extra food.  I remember there was

21    somebody, [redacted], who sent a letter to me and my superior to send some

22    food, and we did.  I sent most food to the brother of my kuma.  She called

23    me once.  She said, "You know my brother is there.  He has kidney problems

24    from his childhood.  He needs some fatty foods, like lard or bacon."  And

25    whenever I had some I would send it to him.

Page 9228

 1       Q.   What was his name?

 2       A.   Midhat Fazlic.

 3       Q.   Briefly, did you and Mladjo Radic assist people from Ljubija?

 4       A.   Yes, we did.

 5            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Any other Defence counsel who

 7    wish to put questions to this witness?  I see not.

 8            Then the Prosecutor, Ms. Susan Somers.

 9            Mrs. Radic, you are now going to be answering questions put to you

10    by the Prosecutor, Ms. Somers.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

12                          Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:

13       Q.   Mrs. Radic, the entire duration of your marriage to Mladjo Radic,

14    has he been a police officer?

15       A.   Yes, he was a policeman the whole time.

16       Q.   When Omarska became an investigations centre, you were working in

17    that centre, correct, from the very beginning of its being as an

18    investigations centre?  You continued your previous service there and just

19    switched over to working in the investigations centre; is that -- is our

20    understanding correct?

21       A.   Yes.  I worked there before, and when the investigations centre

22    was set up, I continued working there.  And of course I stayed on

23    afterwards as well.  And then the company was disbanded and we all stopped

24    working later on.

25       Q.   Now, your husband, Mladjo Radic, also was at that centre the whole

Page 9229

 1    time you were there.  In other words, you worked at Omarska co-extensively

 2    with your husband's service there as well; right?  Is that a clear enough

 3    question to you?

 4       A.   Yes, the question is clear.  But I worked at the Separacija and he

 5    worked at the investigations centre, 3 kilometres away, so we weren't

 6    actually together.

 7       Q.   Did you come to work together?

 8       A.   Well, no, we couldn't work together.

 9       Q.   Did you work the same shifts?  For example, daytime, night-time.

10       A.   No, we couldn't, because I went to work at 4.00 a.m. or 3.00 a.m.

11    sometimes so that we could get through all the work and prepare all the

12    food, whereas his working hours were from 7.00 in the morning.  So we

13    didn't go to work together.

14       Q.   You have spoken of your kuma, Mrs. Denic.

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Are you aware that your husband Ibrahim, also I assume your kum,

17    has not been seen since he was taken to the Omarska Investigations Centre,

18    sometime in late May 1992?  Are you aware of that fact?

19       A.   I am aware of the fact that he hasn't been seen, and we asked her

20    about it and she told me that he never reached Omarska.  My husband asked

21    around about him because quite normally we were interested in knowing

22    where he was and what had happened to him, and we asked around.  But

23    nobody could tell us that he actually arrived in Omarska because they went

24    to work there three or four days later, they weren't there straight away.

25    And he asked her brother whether the kum was there so that I could talk to

Page 9230

 1    him, and he said he hadn't seen him there at all.

 2       Q.   Midhat, her brother, Midhat --

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   -- did not tell you that her husband was in Omarska?

 5       A.   No.  He didn't say.  He said he wasn't down there.  For the time,

 6    my husband hadn't arrived there.  He didn't know and he didn't find him

 7    there.  But we asked around for a long time but could learn nothing about

 8    him.  And then he asked me via my kuma to send him food, and I did

 9    whenever I could.

10       Q.   What efforts did your husband make to help find Ibrahim Denic, the

11    kum to your family?  Please give us detailed descriptions of the efforts.

12       A.   Well, he inquired.  He asked everybody, everybody he met.  First

13    of all, he asked her brother.  He couldn't tell him anything.  And then

14    there were some other relations and they couldn't tell him anything either

15    as to his whereabouts.  And he couldn't undertake -- take any other steps

16    to find out where he was.  But we would always contact her and she said,

17    "I know that he was in Keraterm the last time I heard, but after that I

18    don't know anything."  She even said that she had asked people down there

19    and they had told her that he had never reached Omarska.

20       Q.   Tell us, please, when your husband was indicted by this Tribunal,

21    did you learn of the charges that were laid against him, the nature of the

22    charges?

23       A.   Whether I knew about the indictment?  Well, I didn't know about

24    the indictment.  Even when he came here and was here for five months, I

25    don't think he even had an indictment.  Because five months later I came

Page 9231

 1    to visit him here and I asked him, "Mladjo, what's happening?" and he

 2    said, "I don't know.  I haven't got the indictment yet."  I don't think

 3    you even knew about his indictment.  How come you're asking about that?

 4            Of course I heard from the media.  I happened to read in a

 5    newspaper called Arena where my husband was mentioned, but it was my

 6    husband's picture and somebody else's name under the photograph, and I

 7    thought that this must be a mix-up because that's not the man.  And I did

 8    not know about the indictment.  Had you sent the indictment, he would have

 9    given himself up to the Tribunal and come to defend his innocence before

10    this Tribunal.

11       Q.   During the period in which you were working and you were working

12    in Omarska, were you living under the same roof?

13       A.   Yes, of course we were.  Always, we've always lived under the same

14    roof.

15       Q.   As a married couple, did you have sexual relations during that

16    period?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   The women who were at Omarska, are you able to tell us, please,

19    how they looked?  Can you describe whether or not they looked fresh,

20    well-dressed, well-nourished?  What was your impression, please, of the

21    women detainees at Omarska?

22       A.   Well, I saw them only two or three times.  They sort of looked

23    normal.  They had facilities to wash.  They might have had one change of

24    clothing but they could wash that clothing, and they would wear clean

25    clothing.  And all of the women had someone to bring them in more

Page 9232

 1    clothing, whether from Omarska or Prijedor.  And one of my colleagues

 2    would come to my kitchen and ask whether I could send some clothing for

 3    all the women there.  Each one would come to ask me for somebody.  For

 4    example, there was a Mara Aleksic there that distributed the food, and

 5    she came to the kitchen bringing something for her husband.  I said that I

 6    didn't know how I could send that off but I could put it with the food and

 7    send it to this person Tesma.  So they did have clothing that came from

 8    their own homes.  People had sent clothing to them through somebody.

 9       Q.   Were they very well washed?  Their persons, not their clothes.

10    Did they smell bad?  Did they smell good?

11       A.   Well, they used to come by at first and they looked fine.  Now,

12    what happened later on, I don't know.  They would even ask for makeup.

13    They wanted -- they asked us for makeup, and they had a way to wash

14    themselves and take baths.

15       Q.   Mrs. Radic, could you, please, give us the names of all the

16    Muslims whom you knew were detained in the Omarska camp?  Whom you knew

17    from personal experience having lived in that region for your whole life.

18    Please give names.

19       A.   Well, I know almost half of Ljubija and others, and those people

20    who called me.  I mentioned [redacted] among them; that is to say, that

21    she wasn't there but her relatives were.  Then my colleagues from work,

22    Atlija Ivica, he drove a refrigerator truck.  We helped him too.  Then

23    [redacted]

24    [redacted]

25       Q.   Mrs. Radic --

Page 9233

 1       A.   But a lot of people, many, many, people, if you want me to name

 2    them.

 3       Q.   Then there were a number of people of Muslim ethnicity whom you

 4    knew your whole life who were in Omarska camp; would that be a fair

 5    statement?  Including the brother of your kum -- kuma, excuse me.

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   What was your understanding of your husband's role at Omarska

 8    camp, since you went to work every day there and he did too?  What was

 9    your understanding of his duties there?

10       A.   He was doing the job of a policeman/guard.  He had to provide

11    security, security, and see that the people who were there were secure.

12    Nothing else.

13       Q.   What does that mean to you, "security"?  If you can just give us a

14    very brief description of your understanding of that.

15       A.   Well, I understand it in the following way:  Those people there

16    had to be safe so that a group from outside couldn't come in and do them

17    harm, do those people harm.  They had to prevent anything like that from

18    happening.

19       Q.   What was your understanding of why people were in Omarska as

20    detainees?

21       A.   Well, I don't know that.  That was politics, when they were taken

22    into custody, and I don't really know anything about that.

23            MS. SOMERS:  I would like to ask the usher to distribute a

24    document.  I want to ask a quick question about something, please, from a

25    document.  It's the same one from this morning and I have a focused

Page 9234

 1    question on it, the one I had mentioned.  I think counsel have it but the

 2    Chamber may wish to have it back, please.  For identification, it should

 3    be marked as Prosecution's 3/231.  So the registrar knows, some have been

 4    premarked, this among them, so they may not be in sequence, but just so

 5    it's clear.

 6            If the usher would be kind enough to please put the document on

 7    the ELMO.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.

 9            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a document

10    which -- the whole day today Ms. Somers has, without success, tried to

11    introduce somewhere.  It was the document that was shown with Mr. Delic

12    and was not accepted.  This document has nothing to do with this witness.

13    She did not write it, she did not see it, nor did she decide upon it.

14    Now, I know that one can be persistent, but this has surpassed all

15    limits.  It is the document that you saw with Witness Delic and you did

16    not accept it, and now we are seeing it -- it has risen up again, and I

17    would like to object, because this document has nothing to do with this

18    lady here.  She is a cook in the Separacija.  This document is allegedly a

19    document signed by Mr. Delic, who was the previous witness.  And there has

20    been -- there have been persistent attempts at bringing the document up.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, please do not keep

22    repeating yourself.  Let us clear one matter up.  The Judges refused

23    because Ms. Susan Somers attempted to have the document shown after her

24    time was up.

25            Ms. Susan Somers, your reply.

Page 9235

 1            MS. SOMERS:  Yes, of course, this document has relevance to a

 2    number of witnesses who are here to testify on behalf of the accused

 3    Radic, and in particular, this witness, who is the wife of Radic, who went

 4    to work at the same camp every day for the same period of time as Radic

 5    and who had intimate knowledge of what Radic may or may not have said

 6    about his functions, is a very appropriate witness to comment on the award

 7    given for the work done by Radic.  It has nothing to do with who signed

 8    it.  It has to do with the essence of the award and the essence of why he

 9    was given this award, Your Honour.  The relevance, I think, is very

10    clear.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, this document

12    has already been introduced into evidence.  It has a number, 3/231.  You

13    can go ahead and ask the witness the question without the document.  Where

14    is the problem?  Do you wish to ask a question with respect -- if you wish

15    to ask a question with respect to that, go ahead and ask it, but proceed

16    as you see fit.  Anyway, the document has already been introduced,

17    admitted.

18            MS. SOMERS:  I beg your pardon.  I don't mean to correct the

19    Chamber.  I believe that this is the first time we've had it marked for

20    identification.  I believe it has not been admitted.  I apologise if

21    there's any confusion on the status, but it is just marked, it is not

22    admitted yet.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.  I thought that

24    it was marked for identification and that that was the number the document

25    already had.  So is the number the mark for identification?  What does

Page 9236

 1    P3/231 denote, the mark for identification?

 2            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, it's marked for identification.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, then.  Thank you

 4    anyway for drawing my attention to that.

 5            MS. SOMERS:  No problem, Your Honour.

 6       Q.   Mrs. Radic, I want to ask you about the award your husband was

 7    given of which there has been mention.  You are aware that he was given an

 8    award for his extraordinary service, and he got some Deutschemarks.  I

 9    believe the amount was 50.  Is that what your understanding was, that it

10    was 50?  Mrs. Radic, was it 50 Deutschemarks that he was given?

11       A.   Let me tell you, at that time, it was actually given out in

12    points, some 50 points, but it would be the equivalent of 50 Deutschemark

13    value.  But for his many years of service, and people are always set out

14    for awards not linked to Omarska or anything, so they normally selected

15    him as being one of them.  And during a ceremony, that is what he

16    received.  At that time, we were receiving no cash at all.  We were

17    receiving no remuneration and we had nothing to feed our three children

18    with.  So that was a good thing to come into the house.  So I don't know

19    how you're going to understand this, but it's for his many years of

20    service and not participation in Omarska.

21       Q.   Thank you very much for clarifying that, Mrs. Radic.  The question

22    I have about this award that is the subject of this particular document of

23    8 November 1993, signed by Bogdan Delic, is the second to the last

24    paragraph.

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9237

 1       Q.   It says:  "He has selflessly laboured --"

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I see you're on your

 3    feet.

 4            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, she ought to ask whether

 5    the witness had seen the document, whether she knows who Delic is.  You

 6    can't just put a document before a witness just like that, without any

 7    preliminary questions.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fila.

 9            Ms. Susan Somers, that was the reason I asked you either to go

10    ahead and ask the question without the document, or if you wish to show

11    the document, then you have to ask the witness first whether she has ever

12    seen the document before.  Please proceed.

13            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you.  I appreciate that.  The witness, of

14    course, has indicated that she's familiar with the subject matter.

15       Q.   But, in fact, are you aware that there was a commendation that was

16    authorised in writing for your husband, that it came from officials in the

17    Prijedor police structure so that he could have this award?  Are you aware

18    of that?

19       A.   Well, I didn't know anything about that before.  But when the

20    ceremony took place, he came back and said, "Well, we've received a small

21    sort of award," bonus, something like that.  But it wasn't actually

22    anything special.  But I told you why and how it came about.

23       Q.   Was this the only -- was that the only bonus that he had received

24    as a police officer in the Omarska service?

25       A.   Yes, yes.

Page 9238

 1       Q.   Although you may not have seen it, may I just ask you, please,

 2    about a comment that was made, where it says, in support of your husband

 3    receiving this award, "He has selflessly laboured to uncover the deeds of

 4    Muslim extremists at the Omarska Reception Centre where he has worked day

 5    and night."

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.

 7            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if the woman has never

 8    seen the document, and she says she hasn't seen it, how can she comment on

 9    something she has never seen?

10       A.   Well, yes, this is impossible, Your Honour.

11            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] So please may we have the document

12    removed.  It is upsetting and confusing the witness.  If she says she has

13    not seen the document, then she can't talk about something she hasn't

14    seen.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just one moment, Mr. Fila.  You

16    will have the opportunity of asking additional questions.  If necessary,

17    Ms. Susan Somers can ask the witness to read the document, or she can read

18    it and hear the comments.  Afterwards, Mr. Fila, you can ask your

19    questions.  But if you keep interrupting, that can also upset the

20    witness.

21            Ms. Susan Somers, please continue, and bear in mind the time.

22            MS. SOMERS:  I am trying to, Judge.  I'd like to get through this,

23    actually.  Thank you very much.

24       Q.   I'm sorry for the interruption, but let me just start quickly and

25    run through it with you.  In support of the award, it says, "He has

Page 9239

 1    selflessly laboured to uncover the deeds of Muslim extremists at the

 2    Omarska Reception Centre, where he has worked day and night."

 3            Tell me, please, the description of security that you understood

 4    to be the function of your husband, did that include the notion of

 5    uncovering the deeds of Muslim extremists?  Is that what you understood to

 6    be taking place at the Omarska camp?

 7       A.   No.  This is something quite different which you wish to impose

 8    here.  He worked as a policeman on security jobs.  He did not take into

 9    custody anybody or take anybody away.  He was just doing his job, on

10    duty.  So what you want to say, that just does not stand.  And as to the

11    battlefield, yes, everybody had to go to the battlefield.  Nobody could

12    refuse orders to go to the battlefield.  Even when he went to the

13    battlefield for three days, he preferred to go to the battlefield rather

14    than being there with the people he couldn't help, with his own people

15    whom he couldn't help.  But all he had to do, his only job was to do guard

16    duty down there.  And I don't agree with what is written here.

17       Q.   Can you just tell me, though, is there anywhere written on this

18    piece of paper that you see a reference to guard duty or security?

19       A.   Well, it says "policeman," "policeman of the police force," which

20    means that he worked as a policeman.  What else would a policeman do down

21    there but be a guard with all the other guards?  They were all equal.  And

22    it never says here -- it doesn't say anywhere here -- it just says that he

23    was an experienced police officer.  Nothing else.

24            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you, Mrs. Radic.  I have no further questions.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

Page 9240

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, your questions?

 2                          Re-examined by Mr. Fila:

 3       Q.   As we've got the document, does it say that he was shift leader

 4    anywhere?

 5       A.   Well, of course it doesn't, no.  It just says recommendation for a

 6    cash bonus.

 7       Q.   Does it say that he raped anyone anywhere?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   Does it say that he beat anyone anywhere?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   And does it say that he ordered somebody killed anywhere?

12       A.   No, and he never did that.  I don't know --

13       Q.   Take it slowly, please, madam.  Have you ever seen this document

14    before today?

15       A.   No, never.  This seems as if it's something --

16       Q.   Do you happen to know that this is a document?

17       A.   Well, I can see that it's some kind of document.

18       Q.   Do you have anything to do with the contents of that document?

19       A.   No, I have nothing, no.

20            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

21    questions.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fila.

23            Judge Riad has the floor.

24                          Questioned by the Court:

25            JUDGE RIAD:  Mrs. Radic, good afternoon.

Page 9241

 1       A.   Good afternoon.

 2            JUDGE RIAD:  I just have some general questions.  You were in the

 3    Separacija, living 3 kilometres -- as I understood, staying 3 kilometres

 4    away from the camp, from Omarska camp.  But you had the chances of talking

 5    to the women, Branka, Koka, Suada, and they would always tell you how much

 6    they appreciated your husband's help, if I understood I rightly.  You even

 7    mentioned that he could protect them from people coming from outside to

 8    harm them, one of his -- this was one of his jobs.

 9            Do you have any concrete knowledge that he stopped people coming

10    from outside to attack?  What made them trust him so much?  Did they tell

11    you certain incidents?

12       A.   Well, no, no, they didn't, and we never talked about that.  They

13    simply always praised him, because they could go into his office and have

14    coffee when he was not there and nobody would bother them there.  And had

15    he prevented somebody from entering, well, nobody came, at least not

16    during his shifts.

17            JUDGE RIAD:  They would go to his office.  So he had an office in

18    Omarska camp?

19       A.   Yes, where the telephones were, perhaps radio communications

20    or something.  But it was -- I think it was a glass booth or something

21    like that near to the place where he stood guard, and I believe you know

22    about that.

23            JUDGE RIAD:  Did they speak of other guards in the same way?  Did

24    they know all the other guards, or he was more or less outstanding among

25    these guards?

Page 9242

 1       A.   No, but they seemed to know him.  They said that everybody was

 2    nice to them, that everybody was good to them.  No distinction.  Whoever

 3    they asked to bring them bread or something, they always did that, they

 4    all helped them.  But they knew Mladjo and so they turned to him.

 5            On the first day when he started, there was Sada Curak from

 6    Ljubija - she was a physician - and that first day when my husband came

 7    home, he said, "She's got some stomach pain.  Have you got any herbal

 8    teas?" and I said yes and took all the herbal teas that I had at home and

 9    gave them to her, because we knew her personally.  She treated our

10    children.

11            But all of them, down to the last one, they all spoke well of him

12    and only had but nice words for him.

13            JUDGE RIAD:  You said that they spoke well of everyone.  On the

14    same level, or was he praised more than the others?

15       A.   Well, it depended.  I don't know.  Depending on who's doing the

16    shift.  But they said that whoever happens to be on the shift was ready to

17    help them, and that women were, indeed, protected and received that help.

18    Who wouldn't help if you ask him for it?  And if they turned to him

19    for help, then of course he helped them.

20            And all sorts of things that I sent from home -- I mean whenever

21    they wrote something, not only to me.  But somebody knew a neighbour,

22    Salih Hadzihanovic knew a neighbour, and since they lived in the same

23    building, so she would write, "Can you please send me something?"  And she

24    made this parcel and took it there.  Because he knew lots of people, that

25    is why all of this went through him.  And I think that there isn't a man

Page 9243

 1    in Omarska who did not send something down there.

 2            JUDGE RIAD:  Thank you very much.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

 4    Riad.

 5            Judge Wald.

 6            JUDGE WALD:  Mrs. Radic, I just want to ask you about one thing

 7    also in the award document, but nothing to do with the Muslims in the

 8    camp.

 9            It says some very nice things about your husband, and one of them

10    is that, "Since the very beginning of combat activities, Mladjo has been

11    actively involved in the preparation and organisation of young police

12    officers for the implementation of the most complex tasks.  His work

13    colleagues respect him because he excels in all activities as their true

14    leader."

15            Now, my only question to you is:  Is that consistent with your

16    impressions that the younger police officers looked up to him as a leader

17    of sorts?  Not an official rank leader but because of his experience and

18    the fact that, it says here, he actively worked in preparing them, that

19    they regarded him with respect as a sort of, if you like, moral leader?

20    Was that consistent with your impression of how he was regarded by the

21    younger officers?

22       A.   As for younger officers, they were all equal, they were all

23    together, but they liked -- some preferred to work with my husband

24    because he liked a good joke and the terms were good.  It has nothing to

25    do with what this document says.  Everybody liked to work with him.  So

Page 9244

 1    nothing as regards the nickname or something else.

 2            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mrs. Radic, I also have a few

 4    questions for you.

 5            You said at some point that your husband, that he was a policeman

 6    responsible for security, that he was nothing else as far as other things

 7    were concerned.  You remember that you answered that during the

 8    examination?

 9       A.   Yes.  I said that he was a policeman and nothing but a policeman.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But when you said "nothing else

11    as far as other things are concerned," what does that mean?

12       A.   Well, I don't know.  Perhaps if you thought that he had his shift

13    or something like that, that is not true.  They were all equal.  He could

14    not have any higher post, that is what I meant.  His only job was a

15    policeman's job.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, Mrs. Radic, I did not ask

17    you that.  You somehow used the words "for other things," and that is what

18    I wanted to ask you about.  But never mind.

19            However, there is another thing that I want to ask you about.  You

20    said that he preferred to go to the front than to be surrounded by his own

21    people in the collection centre.

22       A.   Well, yes.  When he was in the collections centre, it was three or

23    four days later when the centre was set up either by Banja Luka, or when

24    some special police came down there - at least that is what my husband

25    told me - he called them to go down there.  They were not told anything.

Page 9245

 1    They were just told that they had to go there and guard that area.

 2            And, believe me, he came back in tears, he came back from work in

 3    tears.  He never otherwise cried.  And he said, "I can't be down there

 4    because I can't help those people.  I know them all but I can't help

 5    them.  I'd rather go wherever, to the front line, but not be here."  But

 6    that he was told, "You have to do as ordered."  And then we talked and I

 7    thought, well, at least he would be near his home, and the children are

 8    there.  I asked him too, "Well, why don't you stay?  Because, after all,

 9    you will perhaps be able to help and then it will be remembered perhaps at

10    some later day."

11            So now at times I feel responsible that --

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mrs. Radic, excuse me, but

13    did he only speak about -- was that the only time that he would rather go

14    to the front line?  Was that the only time that he said that, or was it on

15    different occasions?

16       A.   No.  At that time, he told his superior but the superior said,

17    "You talk, you talk, but you have to do as ordered."  So that was that

18    and how things went.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you say that he even spoke to

20    his superior because your husband had told you, or how did you learn

21    about that?

22       A.   Well, in different ways, because he complained.  He said he'd

23    rather not go.  I really learned it from different people.  But then I

24    asked him to stay there if possible, not to go to the front line, because

25    of the children and our home and all the rest.  I thought he'd be able to

Page 9246

 1    help his colleagues and friends, relatives, because we also had relatives

 2    there, and all that, and that is why --

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mrs. Radic, I'm sorry to

 4    interrupt you.  But did you really believe that your husband could have

 5    also gone to the front?  Was it only a matter of complaining, or was he

 6    really ready to go to the front at that time?

 7       A.   No.  He really wanted to go to the front, not to be in Prijedor or

 8    Omarska.  He really had it hard.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.  But do you know

10    whether there was something he could do in order to be sent to the front

11    line, had he really wanted to do that?

12       A.   Well, how?  He wouldn't be able to because he also received

13    threats.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me.  What kind of

15    threats; that is, who threatened him and how?

16       A.   I do not know.  He simply said, "I cannot."  When I suggested

17    something to him, the answer -- and somebody told him, "You just talk too

18    much.  You have to do what your job is.  You have to do your job."  That's

19    it.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right.  But from your point of

21    view, it means that persons who could send him to the front had decided

22    instead -- had decided instead to make him stay; is that it?

23       A.   Well, he had to stay there.  He simply had to stay.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you learn about any

25    policemen who did go to the front line, to the battlefield, having been

Page 9247

 1    there first?

 2       A.   No.  At that time, no.  At that time, they had withdrawn everybody

 3    from the front.  At that time, not everybody had returned from there,

 4    except the troops, of course.  But the police had to stay there.  All of

 5    the policemen had to stay there.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] From your point of view, to go

 7    to the front line at that time, under those circumstances, would it have

 8    meant a sanction or would it have meant a reward, a prize?

 9       A.   Well, I don't understand what kind of it.  One had to go to fight

10    regardless, and it could not be either a reward or punishment.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mrs. Radic, we have

12    no other questions for you.  Thank you very much for coming here.  We wish

13    you a happy return to your home.  Now the usher will escort you from the

14    courtroom.  Thank you.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would also like to

16    thank you.

17                          [The witness withdrew]

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Maybe we could rehear the

19    version tomorrow, because at this moment I have some other assignments.

20    But perhaps tomorrow morning we could devote some time to that.

21            Is that what you wish?  Is that why you are on your feet,

22    Ms. Somers?

23            MS. SOMERS:  No, Your Honour.  I just want, as is custom here at

24    the close, to seek to move into evidence Prosecution's 3/231, the document

25    which we just looked at.  There is an English component and a B/C/S

Page 9248

 1    component, and if the registrar wants to make an A and B, I would just be

 2    grateful to know how it is ultimately designated.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That is all?

 4            MS. SOMERS:  Yes, thank you.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

 6            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to the

 7    admission of this document because of this authenticity.  It could have

 8    been shown to the person whose signature allegedly it bears rather than to

 9    the wife of the accused Radic, because I do not know what this document

10    is, the one that is on the table.  I do challenge its authenticity because

11    it was not shown to the person who signed it.  It was shown to Mr. Radic's

12    wife who never saw it before.  I do not think it can be tendered through

13    her.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, do you wish to

15    respond?

16            MS. SOMERS:  Yes.  As you know, we apologise for having tried to

17    get in after, and we did make a record request to try to reopen in the

18    interests of justice, but I think the relevance is plain.

19            The witness Delic himself acknowledged this morning that there

20    was, in fact, a document which he signed - he said it had a November 1993

21    date - and acknowledged as much as he could recall without seeing anything

22    of the contents.  This document, in fact, is a November 1993 document.

23    The only award that was granted, according to Mrs. Radic, to the witness.

24    I think that there's no question that this is what was being discussed

25    this morning, Your Honours.  Certainly, that can be reserved for argument

Page 9249

 1    or an issue of weight.  But I'm confident that we have shown relevance and

 2    authenticity sufficiently for purposes of admission.

 3            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] All I can say is --

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.

 5            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Only a minor objection.  Mr. Delic did

 6    not see this document and therefore he could not say if he had signed it

 7    or not.  We discussed a document which was not shown to him.  I do not

 8    know whether this is the document.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, let us not repeat

10    things.  I gave you the floor to say something -- if you have something

11    new to say.  Yes, Ms. Somers, if you have something new to say, then you

12    have the floor.  Otherwise, no.  Do you have something new to say?

13            MS. SOMERS:  Only if the Chamber wishes and would permit us to --

14    while Mr. Delic is still in The Hague, to bring him back and ask.  I think

15    it would be no problem.  We would make that request, if that's necessary.

16    Otherwise, I think we've shown relevance and authenticity.  We'll leave it

17    in the Chamber's hands.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

19                          [Trial Chamber confers]

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber admits the document

21    P3/231.  It is admitted.

22            Therefore, tomorrow I shall ask the registrar to prepare the

23    tape-recording for tomorrow, and I should like, if possible, I don't know

24    how it can be done technically, but to hear only the original --

25    Mr. Fila's questions in the original and the witness' answer in the

Page 9250

 1    original, and after that, the booths will interpret what they hear.  And

 2    even if the interpretation does not coincide, it does not matter.  But we

 3    shall make the comparison between the original that was heard and the

 4    version which we already have.  So I should like to ask the registrar to

 5    prepare it tomorrow but only the original in the B/C/S.

 6            So tomorrow at 9.20 we shall be resuming our work.  Thank you.

 7                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.18 p.m.,

 8                          to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of

 9                          March, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.