1 Tuesday, 13th March 2001 2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please be
7 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical
8 booth, the interpreters, the Registry, counsel for the Prosecution,
9 counsel for the Defence. Before beginning, I should like to give the
10 floor to Mr. Jovan Simic. There seems to be a problem with Mr. Prcac.
11 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes,
12 we do have a problem. Mr. Prcac fell ill yesterday. As you can see, he
13 is absent from the courtroom. May I explain briefly what happened.
14 He felt very unwell but he wasn't taken to hospital immediately.
15 They had to wait until the Krnojelac trial ended. Then he was taken to
16 the Tribunal, kept in the garage for about 15 minutes and then transferred
17 to the hospital, where he stayed until about 10.00 p.m., upon which he was
18 returned to the Detention Unit, advised to rest and go to sleep.
19 I must note with great regret that the ruling of this Trial
20 Chamber is not being respected. We have discussed this matter
21 repeatedly. You have given certain recommendations regarding this
22 problem. Ms. Brenda Hollis, the former Prosecutor, agreed that she had
23 nothing against Mr. Prcac enjoying the same treatment as all the other
24 detainees, but for some reasons which we are unaware of, this did not
1 We did write a letter to the Registry and to the President of this
2 Tribunal, Mr. Jorda. We received no reply so we don't know what's
3 happening. So this seems to be a vicious circle. Mr. Prcac is an elderly
4 man; he is a sick man. He cannot endure the treatment he's being given.
5 I really don't know who to blame, but this kind of treatment is certainly
6 worsening his medical condition.
7 We have two problems here. First of all, we cannot prepare for
8 the Defence properly with our defendant being ill; and secondly, if this
9 continues, we shall have to suspend the continuation of the hearings.
10 As for today, we agree that we continue with the hearings, but the
11 plan of this team had been for Mr. Prcac to hear the cross-examination of
12 Mr. Radic, and unless his condition improves, I will not be able to agree
13 that the cross-examination of Mr. Radic be conducted in the absence of
14 Mr. Prcac.
15 I appeal to Your Honours once again, because I don't understand
16 why four defendants can walk around, can talk, can enjoy recreation
17 together, whereas Mr. Prcac cannot; that they can be transported together,
18 whereas Mr. Prcac has to wait two hours for the transport. He has high
19 blood pressure. He is a man who suffers from various ailments. And out
20 of professional ethics, I have to caution this Trial Chamber that we are
21 heading in a direction that could have tragic consequences. Thank you,
22 Your Honour.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Susan Somers.
24 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, this is the first that I have heard of
25 today, and I would like to express also the concern of the Prosecution if,
1 in fact, there was a delay in medical attention being rendered to Mr.
2 Prcac. This is irrespective of anything Ms. Hollis may have said. If what
3 Mr. Simic is indicating is the state of affairs, I think that this could
4 have some consequences that we are very concerned about as well. I would
5 like to join in the concern and ask, perhaps, the Chamber to look into
6 what the delay was in rendering the assistance.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much for
8 your concern, Ms. Susan Somers. But perhaps you could look into the
9 matter in the Office of the Prosecutor, because, as Mr. Jovan Simic has
10 mentioned, we did raise the question here in the courtroom. I see that
11 Judge Wald has a comment to make.
12 JUDGE WALD: My only comment was that this did come up in your
13 predecessors, and in fact originally there was some question whether the
14 Prosecutor, originally, way back, had requested some kind of special
15 transportation arrangements for Mr. Prcac. But then they retreated. My
16 memory is that they retreated from that and agreed that he could be
17 treated like the others. So I tend to think it's in the Registry's lap.
18 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I completely agree, but my concern --
19 JUDGE WALD: As long as you have already voiced very clearly here
20 in front of both of the counsel and us that to your knowledge you have no
21 objection to him being treated similarly.
22 MS. SOMERS: We have no objection to assisting him physically as
23 he needs it.
24 JUDGE WALD: Right.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge
1 Wald. That was exactly what I was going to say to Ms. Susan Somers.
2 There was at least one contradiction. Ms. Susan Somers said that in this
3 courtroom, and for the transcript, that they had nothing against Mr. Prcac
4 being transported together with the other accused. The problem is that
5 the Prosecutor requested a restriction of communication, and as a result
6 of those restrictions, all these problems arose. I know that the Registry
7 asked the Prosecutor in writing whether, yes or no, restrictions were
8 needed, and the Office of the Prosecutor officially confirmed that, yes,
9 they needed these restrictions. So we have one position of the Prosecutor
10 here in the courtroom and another position of the Prosecutor outside the
11 courtroom. I think that is the problem.
12 I know, Mr. Jovan Simic, and I personally in the next break will
13 address the matter. I know that the President is informed of the issue,
14 we have already discussed it, and during the next break, I am going to
15 speak personally with the President and I'm going to ask the Registry -
16 maybe I should wait for Madam Registrar, for her to finish her
17 conversation - I'm going to ask the Registry to convey to the President of
18 the Tribunal this part of the transcript in which Mr. Jovan Simic stated
19 what he did, the position expressed by Ms. Susan Somers, and the entire
20 discussion that we have had so that the President may be in a position to
21 take a decision as quickly as possible. That is as much as I can do.
22 As you know, it is not up to the Chamber to decide about such
23 matters. It is up to the President. As you know, the President was
24 seized of the matter a few weeks ago, and I think that we need to have a
25 decision very quickly.
1 Ms. Susan Somers, do you have something to say?
2 MS. SOMERS: If the Court will permit me. Mr. Saxon informed me
3 that apparently Ms. Hollis, having been informed of the medical problems,
4 had on the record - and I would try to locate it perhaps on the break -
5 indicated that the position had in fact changed, and I certainly adhere to
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.
8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It's not only for gentlemanly reasons
9 that I'm trying to defend Ms. Hollis. She's not here so that's only
10 fair. Ms. Hollis' position was clear, that all five defendants need to
11 have the same treatment, and that is the problem.
12 If you remember, she requested the same measures for all five and
13 she couldn't understand why it was being applied to Prcac and not to the
14 other accused. That was her position. After that, she agreed that all of
15 them should have equal treatment. I apologise for intervening at this
16 stage with this comment.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. So our
18 conclusion is that we must decide the matter as urgently as possible.
19 That is what we are able to do. So I insist that the Registry convey to
20 the President an abstract of the transcript regarding this matter so he
21 can have more information at his disposal.
22 I also need to tell Mr. Stojanovic the dates designated for the
23 Defence of the accused Mr. Zigic. So it is -- I'm talking of the week,
24 the week of the 26th of March, the week of the 9th of April, the week of
25 the 17th of April - I must say that these two weeks are a little shorter,
1 as you know, because there are holidays in between - and the week of the
2 23rd of April, which means that we will stick to the plan we announced for
3 the week of the 7th of May for the Defence of Mr. Prcac, and also the week
4 of the 14th of May for Mr. Prcac. That is what we plan and that is what
5 we will abide by for the moment.
6 I think that we are now able to begin with our work proper, and
7 for that purpose, I give the floor to Mr. Fila.
8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The Defence
9 calls Witness Vinka Andzic, and we have five witnesses planned for today.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 WITNESS: VINKA ANDZIC
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Vinka Andzic.
14 Can you hear me?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are going to read the solemn
17 declaration given to you by the usher.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Please make
21 yourself as comfortable as possible. Thank you very much for coming.
22 First you will be answering questions put to you by Mr. Fila.
23 Wait a moment, please, because I see there is a problem with one
24 of the court reporters.
25 I think that we can now proceed. Mr. Fila, you have the floor.
1 Examined by Mr. Fila:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Vinka Andzic, when were you born?
3 A. On the 6th of August, 1959.
4 Q. Where were you born?
5 A. In Prijedor.
6 Q. And by ethnicity, you are what?
7 A. A Serb.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.
9 MR. SAXON: I'm very sorry for interrupting, but I'm concerned,
10 looking at the transcript, that the witness has not taken the oath. I
11 just wanted to check on that. That's all.
12 THE COURT REPORTER: It's there but it didn't appear on the
13 transcript because my computer was frozen.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you satisfied now? The
15 English court reporter tells us that it is not in the transcript but it
16 will be entered. It is in the memory and it will be entered
18 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm satisfied. Thank you,
19 I'm sorry.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any event, your remark has
21 been registered in the record.
22 So, Mr. Fila, please continue.
23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
24 Q. What is your ethnicity and religion?
25 A. I'm a Serb.
1 Q. And your occupation?
2 A. A dressmaker.
3 Q. Before the conflict began, where did you work and what did you do?
4 A. I worked in the Omarska mine as a cleaning lady.
5 Q. Are you married? Do you have any children?
6 A. I am married. I have a husband and two sons.
7 Q. Is the building in which you work the same building in which
8 people would later be detained?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. While you were working before that event, did you use the water in
11 the mine, and how?
12 A. Yes, we used the water normally, at the tap, industrial water that
13 we all used.
14 Q. Was it water running from the taps?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And where did that water come from, from a well or from the town
17 water supply system?
18 A. From a well.
19 Q. Later on when this investigation centre was established, and after
20 that too, was that same water used?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I should now like to ask you a few questions about a person called
23 Mladjo Radic. Did you know him before the war, and how?
24 A. Yes, I knew him as a quiet, nice man, a nice policeman.
25 Q. Do you know when the investigations centre was established in
2 A. I think it was at the beginning of May 1992.
3 Q. Who worked with you in the hygiene maintenance?
4 A. My colleague, Bosana Nisevic.
5 Q. How did you work? What were your working hours?
6 A. From 7.00 a.m. until 7.00 p.m.
7 Q. What exactly did you clean?
8 A. We cleaned the upstairs floor where the inspectors were; also
9 downstairs we cleaned a couple of times. And then the detainees
10 themselves told us that it was not necessary, that they would do it, that
11 we just give them the products to clean with.
12 Q. During the existence of the centre, did you see Mladjo Radic? If
13 you did, where did you see him?
14 A. I saw him in an office. In front of that office there was a
15 corridor and the steps, and there was an archway, and he would patrol in
16 that area, he would walk around in that area.
17 Q. What was he doing on that staircase?
18 A. Nothing. He just walked around there. That was probably his
19 assignment, to work there.
20 Q. Do you happen to know what kind of weapon he had at the time when
21 you saw him there?
22 A. He had an automatic rifle.
23 Q. Did you see him in an office as well, perhaps?
24 A. Yes, I did. In that particular office, he would sit there
25 occasionally, answer the phone, and that sort of thing.
1 Q. Your colleague and yourself cleaned all those premises?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In those premises, would you come across traces of blood?
4 A. Yes, a little, occasionally.
5 Q. Were there rooms in which people worked, and who?
6 A. Yes, the inspectors.
7 Q. Did you sometimes hear screams and moans?
8 A. Yes, sometimes.
9 Q. Did you sometimes see any one of the detainees being hit?
10 A. Yes, I did, occasionally, but not very often.
11 Q. Were there any women on that floor?
12 A. Yes, there were some women.
13 Q. Were there several of them?
14 A. I can't remember exactly how many. Not many but there were some.
15 Q. Did they clean those rooms as well?
16 A. Yes, they cleaned their own rooms, but sometimes they helped us as
17 well because they were bored.
18 Q. Where did they spend the night?
19 A. They had two offices on the upper floor where they spent the
21 Q. And during the day, where were they?
22 A. In the restaurant.
23 Q. Did they have freedom to move around the building?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And where did they move?
1 A. They could walk around. Not exactly anywhere they wanted, but
2 they could go outside, they could walk along the corridor, and so on.
3 Q. Were they able to use the bathroom?
4 A. Yes, they did use the bathroom. Everything was okay. They had
5 showers and everything. They washed their own clothes.
6 Q. Did they, perhaps, use a hotplate to cook on?
7 A. Yes, to make coffee or tea or to prepare some food for
9 Q. And where was that hotplate?
10 A. They had one, and there was another one in the office in which
11 Mr. Radic was.
12 Q. Do you know the largest room on that floor? And if you do, what
13 was it called?
14 A. Yes. It was a hall, like a conference room.
15 Q. During the day when the investigators were there --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- were the guards there also and the soldiers?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would it be right to say that there were a lot of people on that
20 floor at the time?
21 A. Yes. There were a certain number of people.
22 Q. Were all the rooms occupied then?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you in touch with all those women?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did any one of them complain to you about Mladjo Radic's
3 A. No, no, on the contrary. They praised him. They said that he was
4 a fine man, that he treated them correctly.
5 Q. Could you perhaps give us the names of some women who told you
7 A. There was [redacted] who said that, [redacted], I think that
8 was her name, Jadranka Cigelj, and another woman who worked in the Red
9 Roses Cafe. Several of them.
10 Q. This person, [redacted], did she have another name as well?
11 A. I think she had another surname, [redacted], something like that. I
12 can't remember. But she worked with me for quite some time.
13 Q. Did you personally see Mladjo Radic bring things to the women
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What did he bring them?
17 A. He brought them food, tins of food, bread, hygiene products,
18 whatever they asked for.
19 Q. Did one of them celebrate her birthday?
20 A. I don't know whether it was Cigelj or the other one, but I know
21 that one of them did celebrate her birthday.
22 Q. My last question for you now. Please let us focus on the lady
23 called [redacted]. Did it ever occur that Mladjo Radic sent
24 you to fetch her and you took her upstairs to this big room that you
25 called a conference room where Mladjo Radic was alone during the day, and
1 then he raped her?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And my last question. How would you describe Mladjo Radic's
4 behaviour towards the women and the other detainees, as far as you were
5 able to see?
6 A. The behaviour of a nice man, a good man. I really don't know how
7 to explain it in any other way. I think they should have been grateful to
8 him for all he did for them.
9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. The Defence has
10 no further questions for this witness.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would any of the other Defence
12 counsel like to ask questions of this witness? I see negative signs
13 coming from them. No?
14 The Prosecution, the cross-examination will be conducted by
15 Mr. Saxon; is that right? Yes, Mr. Saxon, you have the floor.
16 Mrs. Vinka Andzic, you will now be answering questions put to you
17 by the Prosecutor.
18 Your witness, Mr. Saxon.
19 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Before I begin the cross-examination, I would just like to inform
21 the Trial Chamber of one thing. While I was cross-examining Mr. Radovan
22 Medic yesterday, Judge Riad had some questions about Defence Exhibit
23 D16/3, and there were questions about that exhibit vis-à-vis some pronouns
24 and the English translation of those pronouns. And I simply wanted to
25 inform the Trial Chamber that the Prosecution is resubmitting this
1 document to the Translation Unit to see if there are errors in the
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:
4 Q. Ms. Andzic, you mentioned in your direct testimony that you used
5 the water normally at the tap, "industrial water that we all used." That
6 was your testimony. Were you using the same water that was used for the
7 mining processes at the camp, the processing of iron ore and things like
8 that, or were you using a different water system?
9 A. We used the same water.
10 Q. Is it your testimony that you drank that water?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The corridor, you talked about the large conference room that was
13 at the end of the corridor on the first floor of the administration
14 building; do you recall that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Fila asked you a question as to whether you had ever brought
17 this woman with the last name of [redacted] to that conference room, and
18 then whether Mr. Radic had then raped her in that conference room, and
19 your answer was no.
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. My question for you is: Did Mr. Radic, at any time, ask you to
22 bring -- before I finish my question, Your Honour, may we go into private
23 session, please.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private
1 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in public session.
18 MR. SAXON:
19 Q. Ms. Andzic, you knew some of the people detained at the Omarska
20 camp during that summer of 1992, didn't you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Some of the detainees who you knew were killed at the Omarska
23 camp; is that right? I remind you that you're under oath.
24 A. Perhaps they were. I don't know.
25 Q. Well, do you know if any of the people that you knew were killed
1 at the Omarska camp?
2 A. I couldn't see that. How could I see that?
3 Q. You mentioned that you saw --
4 A. I couldn't walk around.
5 Q. You couldn't walk around. Why not?
6 A. Well, because I had no time. I was always busy working upstairs,
7 on the floor above.
8 Q. You spent 12 hours straight, from 7.00 in the morning until 7.00
9 in the evening, cleaning that first floor, when you just told us that the
10 female detainees there told you that after awhile they could clean it
11 themselves? We haven't heard an answer.
12 A. Yes, but I went to the Separacija for a time too, and we would do
13 some work there and then come back and do some work here.
14 Q. When you left the administration building, did you see people
15 being mistreated at the Omarska camp?
16 A. Perhaps I would see someone slap someone sometimes, things like
18 Q. You mentioned before that you heard the sounds of screams, moans
19 from the first floor, when you were working on the first floor of the
20 administration building. You said that occasionally you saw detainees
21 being hit. Did you report these incidents or did you just become used to
22 it and then ignore it?
23 A. I didn't become used to it. Quite simply, I did my work. I
24 couldn't ...
25 Q. You couldn't what? Would you finish the thought, please?
1 A. I couldn't watch it. I was doing my job, going about my business;
2 they were doing their job.
3 Q. You had children at the time, didn't you, Mrs. Andzic, in 1992?
4 A. Yes, yes, I did. One of my sons -- one son was -- well, I don't
5 remember how old I was or he was.
6 Q. Mrs. Andzic, it was painful for you to watch the mistreatment of
7 those prisoners, wasn't it?
8 A. As I said, I didn't watch it. I went about my own business. It
9 wasn't up to me to watch it. But if they were slapped or something,
10 that ...
11 Q. When you finished your work for the day at the Omarska camp, after
12 spending those 12-hour days there, did you talk to anyone about what you
13 saw at the camp, the mistreatment of prisoners, seeing prisoners slapped,
14 hearing moans?
15 A. Well, no, they just asked me whether they had enough food.
16 Q. Did you see mistreatment -- I'll rephrase that. You said that the
17 women could walk around freely and you said that they could go outside.
18 What did you mean by the term "outside"?
19 A. To go outside in the meadow, to pick the various plants there and
20 show us what teas could be made from which plants, and that's what we
21 would do. We would pick the flowers and plants and make the tea and drink
23 Q. Could you explain to us where exactly this meadow was with these
24 plants that you used to make tea?
25 A. Roundabout the buildings.
1 Q. Roundabout which buildings?
2 A. Around the administration building, the workshop.
3 Q. So I'm just trying to understand you. There was a meadow around
4 the administration building and around the workshop. By "the workshop,"
5 do you mean the building that was also called the hangar?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How big was this meadow?
8 A. Enormous. Those meadows are enormous, enormous. There's nothing
9 there, just that part, and there's a petrol pump and the "white house."
10 Q. Were there cows grazing on this meadow that was around the hangar
11 and the administration building?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And if I understand you correctly, you're saying that the female
14 detainees would walk out of the administration building and walk on this
15 meadow and pick plants; is that right?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Did you ever go with them and ask to see the kind of plants that
18 they were picking? Were you interested in that?
19 A. Yes, yes, I was very interested in those plants, and I use those
20 same plants still, today.
21 Q. And who did you go with to pick plants off of that meadow?
22 A. With the women. They didn't all go. Several of them went. I
23 don't actually know their names but ...
24 Q. Can you recall the names of the women who went with you, any
1 A. I don't know. I can't remember. A lot of time has gone by.
2 Q. When you were outside the administration building, going out to
3 that meadow or meadows, did you see any detainees outside the
4 administration building?
5 A. Yes. They were in front, in front of the administration
6 building. Between the building and the hangar, that's where they were.
7 Q. Did you see any guards out there?
8 A. Yes, there were guards.
9 Q. How did the prisoners look who were out there, that you saw?
10 A. Well, I don't know how to describe their appearance.
11 Q. Can you try?
12 A. Well, quite simply, some of them were standing; some of them were
13 sitting down; some of them were silent; some of them would smile, that
14 sort of thing.
15 Q. How did the camp smell when you were outside the administration
17 A. Well, it was an unpleasant smell.
18 Q. What do you mean by "unpleasant"?
19 A. Well, I don't know how to explain it.
20 Q. What did it smell of? What were you smelling?
21 A. Well, I can't remember, but all I know is it wasn't a fresh
23 Q. Did --
24 A. A strange smell.
25 Q. Did any of the male detainees go with you and the female detainees
1 out to the meadow to pick plants?
2 A. No.
3 MR. SAXON: Could I have the Trial Chamber's indulgence, please.
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
7 Mr. Fila, any additional questions?
8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Just to clarify matters.
9 Re-examined by Mr. Fila:
10 Q. There was a question about the water, whether the water went
11 through the taps and was then -- went into the glasses and drunk, before
12 the investigations centre was set up, during its duration and afterwards.
13 A. We drank the water from the taps. We poured it into glasses.
14 Q. That is my first question. My second question: Could the
15 witness, on the model - I don't know why the model has been removed - but
16 could she indicate where the meadows were, the place where she saw Mladjo
17 Radic on guard? If the Chamber so permits.
18 A. I can show it, yes.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you think that is necessary,
20 Mr. Fila, to have the model put up in front of the witness?
21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, I don't think it is at all
22 necessary, but just in view of the questions that Mr. Saxon has just
23 asked. Otherwise, I don't think it's necessary. But she can get up and
24 point to what she was describing.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. That would mean that we
1 all have to rise.
2 Mr. Usher, would it be possible to set up the model in front of
3 the witness again, if you have somebody to help you perhaps? Would that
4 be at all possible?
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could solve this question
6 with a photograph.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, very well. We can place
8 the photo on the ELMO. Do you have a photo, Mr. Fila?
9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The number is Prosecution Exhibit
10 3/34. Prosecution Exhibit 3/34.
11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I'm just trying to clarify
12 things. The exhibit that Mr. Fila has referred to shows the Keraterm
13 camp, so I think we need to look at a different exhibit.
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I apologise. In the list of documents,
15 it says the photograph of the Omarska camp, and that's the number that
16 stands next to that particular exhibit, according to the list that we
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, could you help
19 us, please? Is there a photograph of the Omarska camp?
20 THE REGISTRAR: It will take me a few seconds to locate it because
21 I need a number. Otherwise, I have to check it manually.
22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I apologise. D26/1 is the entrance to
23 the administration building. 3/121, it says panorama of the Omarska
24 camp. So the number is now 3/121. Or, Mr. President, I am told that the
25 number is D30/1. D30/1.
1 Q. Mrs. Vinka, take a look at this photograph, please, and indicate
2 where the meadows that you talked about are located.
3 A. This here, here, over here. We passed around here. Roundabout,
4 all the way around. That's the house.
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, the transcript says
8 "here." "Here" is not a very precise location so perhaps we ought to
9 define it better, Mr. Fila.
10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
11 Q. Witness, take a look at the photograph and describe exactly where
12 the meadows are, saying behind what, in front of what.
13 A. This is the hangar. This is the administration building. This is
14 the field, pitch, playing ground.
15 Q. Are the meadows around the hangar and the "white house," the
16 pista, opposite the pista; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. On both sides of the hangar, a little further off; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And behind the administration building?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And were you -- did you go flower picking on all those meadows?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I apologise
25 for that extra time.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
2 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.
3 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE RIAD: Mrs. Andzic, good morning. Can you hear me?
6 A. Good morning. Yes.
7 JUDGE RIAD: I would like to understand something more in your
8 testimony, which I followed very carefully. You are Serb. Were you
9 detained in the Omarska camp or were you hired to clean or did you
10 volunteer to clean? What was exactly your position?
11 A. I worked there. It was my duty to work there, to do that job,
12 regardless of whether I'm a Serb or not. I never looked at what people's
13 nationalities were.
14 JUDGE RIAD: That's not my question. Were you detained or were
15 you a worker?
16 A. A worker.
17 JUDGE RIAD: You were a worker. And you lived separately from the
18 other women.
19 A. I didn't understand your question.
20 JUDGE RIAD: You were living in a separate part from the other
21 women, or were you all the time with them and seeing how they eat, how
22 they feel, how they sleep?
23 A. Well, I could see it some of the time, not all of the time. When
24 I had time, I would chat to them and then go about my business. Sometimes
25 they would come up to me to help me wash the windows, for example. We
1 would hang the curtains up and so on when we clean them.
2 JUDGE RIAD: Now, let us see how -- what was your relationship
3 exactly with Mr. Radic? Were you good friends or just you saw him here
4 and there?
5 A. I would see him around. I knew him since my childhood as a
7 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. Were your family relations? Were you
8 acquainted to know his character and so on?
9 A. No.
10 JUDGE RIAD: You saw him sometimes in the office, sitting and
11 answering the telephone. Was this possible for anybody, any guard, to sit
12 in the office and answer the telephone, or only a few people who could sit
13 in the office and answer the telephone?
14 A. Yes, they could.
15 JUDGE RIAD: Anybody could sit and answer the telephone?
16 A. They could, yes, anybody.
17 JUDGE RIAD: Any guard?
18 A. Anybody could, yes.
19 JUDGE RIAD: So this office wasn't the office of the management or
20 anybody. Just a public office.
21 A. That's right, yes.
22 JUDGE RIAD: Was also the investigation done in this office?
23 A. No.
24 JUDGE RIAD: The blood you saw sometimes on the walls. Was it
25 also in this office?
1 A. No.
2 JUDGE RIAD: Now you mentioned that his behaviour to the ladies
3 or to the detained women, he was a nice man. What did you mean by that?
4 Was he too nice to them? Was he all the time with them, trying to be nice
5 to them?
6 A. He was nice to everybody, to the men, to the women. His conduct
7 was proper and he helped anybody he could.
8 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that you did not lead this lady, [redacted]
9 [redacted], to the conference room to see him. As you have been around all
10 the time, were there any other -- did [redacted] go to him by her ownself, or
12 A. I don't know. No, she didn't go, nor would he allow himself
13 something like that. Nobody sent me off, and I don't think any person
14 would allow himself that.
15 JUDGE RIAD: You spoke of the celebration of a birthday of
16 Jadranka Cigelj and you mentioned in your statement that the guards
17 brought drinks, cigarettes, and coffee.
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE RIAD: Who were these guards? Were they the shifts of
20 Mr. Radic? Were they the guards working under him?
21 A. I can't remember.
22 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
23 A. I can't remember who they were because a lot of time has gone by
24 since then.
25 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. But who arranged that? Who asked these guards
1 to bring the cigarettes and so on?
2 A. Themselves, probably themselves. When it was somebody's birthday,
3 we would make a sort of collection and ...
4 JUDGE RIAD: So that was not related only to Mr. Radic. It was
5 the custom in the camp that they celebrate the birthday of the detainees
6 and bring them cigarettes and drinks?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE RIAD: That was?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad
13 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.
14 JUDGE WALD: Ms. Andzic, if I understand your testimony, you
15 worked during the day in the centre, from 0700 to 1900 hours, and then you
16 went home every night; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE WALD: So you were not at the camp at any point during the
19 night, during the time from --
20 A. No, no.
21 JUDGE WALD: -- until the next morning. Okay.
22 You also said that at various times you saw Mr. Radic on the
23 staircase doing guard duty or patrolling, and you also saw him sitting in
24 the office where the telephones were. You also told us that you, in the
25 building, while doing your cleaning, on occasion, on occasion, would hear
1 screams or moans, and on occasion would see detainees being slapped
3 Now, would somebody who was standing on guard where you saw
4 Mr. Radic standing guard, or sitting in the room with the telephones where
5 you saw him sitting, would they also be in a position to hear the screams
6 and moans when they occurred or to see people being slapped around when
7 that happened?
8 A. I didn't understand you, the last bit of what you said.
9 JUDGE WALD: All right. Let me try again. When you said that you
10 sometimes, occasionally, would hear screams or moans and, occasionally,
11 would see detainees being slapped by the guards, would somebody who was
12 standing in the staircase where you told us you saw Mr. Radic sometimes,
13 or sitting in the room --
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE WALD: -- would they be in a position to hear those screams
16 and moans or see those detainees being slapped around?
17 A. I think they could, yes.
18 JUDGE WALD: Okay. That's all I wanted to know.
19 Now, you also told us that you never heard any of the women
20 detainees complain about Mr. Radic; rather, you heard them say nice things
21 about him. Did you, in your excursions with the women --
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 JUDGE WALD: Did you, in your excursions into the meadows with
24 the women, or in your talking to them around the building, did you ever
25 hear any of the women complain about any of the guards or anybody who
1 mistreated them?
2 A. No, no, not one single time.
3 JUDGE WALD: All right. Now, did you -- you told us about
4 Mr. Radic bringing food and toiletries, or that the women told you that he
5 brought food and toiletries to them. In your observations, or from what
6 you heard from the women themselves, was it your impression that Mr. Radic
7 did spend time during the day talking to them, chatting with the women, in
8 other words, that he was with them in a friendly way; or his only contact
9 with him was when he actually brought this food and toiletries to them?
10 From your own observations or from what you heard.
11 A. Only when he brought them food, then I would see him. Afterwards,
12 no, that they would chat and be friends, no, I couldn't notice that. He
13 would just give them food and the toiletries and so on.
14 JUDGE WALD: My last question is: When you went on these plant
15 excursions into the meadows, could you keep walking as far into the
16 meadows as you wished, or were there some kind of soldiers on guard a
17 distance away from the meadow beyond which detainees couldn't go?
18 A. Yes, that did exist. We couldn't go wherever we wanted to.
19 JUDGE WALD: Right. Thank you.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge
22 Mrs. Vinka Andzic, I have a few questions for you myself. Did you
23 receive a salary for your work?
24 A. No.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Therefore, did you have any
1 obligation to work?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Normally, what was the subject
4 of conversation that you had with the women? If you chatted to the women,
5 what did you usually chat about, talk about?
6 A. I knew [redacted] because she worked with me for a long time, 10,
7 perhaps 12 years. We worked together so we would talk about everything,
8 about our families, about everything.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For example, did the women
10 complain about being detained in front of you? Did they complain to you
11 about that?
12 A. They just asked me, "Why has all this happened? What's all this
13 about?" and I would say, "Well, I'm asking myself the same question," that
14 sort of thing.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you ever speak about the
16 conditions that prevailed in the detention centre?
17 A. The conditions? They had excellent conditions. They had food,
18 they had somewhere to sleep, they had a bathroom, a shower. They were
19 able to wash their clothes. Mladjo would bring them everything they
20 needed. I would bring things for them from my own house. I would bring
21 everybody things, as far as I was able. That's what we did.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you gain the impression that
23 they were happy to be there?
24 A. Well, no, of course not. They weren't happy to be there. You
25 can't be happy if you're detained. You don't have your freedom, of
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did they complain about anything
3 to you?
4 A. No, they didn't.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well, Mrs. Andzic.
6 I see that Judge Riad has a question.
7 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. Mrs. Andzic, you just mentioned to the
8 President that you have the duty to work in the detention centre. What
9 kind of duty was that? Was it a moral duty? Was it a national
10 obligation? What was this duty? Were all women obliged to go and work
12 A. No.
13 JUDGE RIAD: So what was it?
14 A. No. I worked and, quite normally, I continued the work that I had
15 been doing previously; I did the same work, the same job when they
16 called me to continue doing the job I had always done.
17 JUDGE RIAD: Before the detention centre, you were working there
18 as a cleaning lady?
19 A. Yes, the same thing, yes.
20 JUDGE RIAD: Because you said in the beginning that you were a
22 A. Yes, but I didn't do that work. You had to take the job that was
23 available. So I was a cleaning woman since 1985, and I'm still a cleaning
24 woman today. I've always been a cleaning lady.
25 JUDGE RIAD: So you were a cleaning lady, and when it was changed
1 into a detention centre, you continued working. Did they force you to
2 work or you stayed of your own free will?
3 A. I went on doing the same work, yes. I had to. It was my job; it
4 was my duty, just the same as if, you know, whatever job you have,
5 whatever employ. It was my duty to go to work. Nobody forced me.
6 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mrs. Vinka Andzic, we have no
8 further questions to ask you. We thank you very much for coming and we
9 wish you a safe journey back to your place of residence.
10 I'm now going to ask the usher to accompany you out of the
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.
15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] We are calling our next witness, Borka
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mrs. Vrhovac. Can
19 you hear me?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I can.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will now read the solemn
22 declaration which the usher will give you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 WITNESS: BORKA VRHOVAC
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Thank you
3 for coming to testify. Now you will be answering questions that Mr. Fila,
4 who is to your left, will ask of you.
5 Mr. Fila.
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Examined by Mr. Fila:
8 Q. Mrs. Vrhovac, where and when were you born?
9 A. I was born near Prijedor on the 13th of February, 1949.
10 Q. And your ethnicity?
11 A. I'm a Serb.
12 Q. Your religion?
13 A. Orthodox.
14 Q. Are you married?
15 A. I am married and a mother of two.
16 Q. What education do you have?
17 A. Secondary agricultural school and high teaching school in Zemun.
18 Q. Where do you live? Where do you work?
19 A. I live in Omarska, and I work for Polje Promet Omarska which is an
20 agricultural cooperative.
21 Q. Did you know the Radic family, specifically Mladjo Radic, and
22 since when?
23 A. I knew the Radics because they were our neighbours. We lived in
24 the same building. It was a very nice family. I never heard anything bad
25 about them. We socialised because we were neighbours.
1 Q. Same building. What town?
2 A. In Omarska.
3 Q. And then when he left Omarska and moved over to Prijedor, did you
4 meet again?
5 A. Well, at times, yes, we'd meet. If I would go to Prijedor, yes,
6 we would meet on occasion. Not particularly often.
7 Q. Are you aware that at some point an investigations centre or a
8 camp, as some call it, was formed in the Omarska mine?
9 A. Yes, I am aware of the investigations centre.
10 Q. Was it in 1992?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Sometime in the middle of the year?
13 A. In May.
14 Q. Or maybe June?
15 A. Thereabouts.
16 Q. Did Mladjo Radic call you in relation to that investigations
17 centre? What did he tell you?
18 A. Mr. Radic brought me a letter written by a lady in the
19 investigations centre, asking me to send her clothes. I knew her from
20 the -- because I was the president of the women's organisation in Omarska
21 and that is how I knew her. So she sent me this letter, she signed it,
22 and was asking me for some clothes. And I took those clothes to
23 Mr. Radic to hand those clothes over to her.
24 Q. Perhaps I don't see well. Did you tell us the name of that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 A. [redacted]
2 Q. Was she employed somewhere?
3 A. [redacted]
5 Q. [redacted]
6 A. [redacted]
7 Q. [redacted]
8 A. [redacted]
9 Q. Was that the first time you learned that she was in that
10 investigations centre?
11 A. Yes, it was.
12 Q. And when you prepared those clothes to send to her, you gave it to
13 Mladjo Radic, as you told us?
14 A. I took it to his flat.
15 Q. And what did he tell you?
16 A. That he would do it on different occasions because it was
17 difficult for him to take it in one go, because I had taken a few changes
18 of clothes. And he said that he would try to give it to her in
19 installments, as it were.
20 Q. But why couldn't he take it all at once? Why was that? Was there
21 something wrong about that?
22 A. Well, those were the times. People were saying that there was
23 some kind of ethnic war, that there was intolerance of sorts, and he
24 thought that it would be best if he didn't do it all at once, because it
25 was said that there were people who were the enemies of our people and ...
1 Q. So it wasn't -- it couldn't really be good if he were seen in
2 public carrying those things, would it?
3 A. Yes, yes, yes.
4 Q. Did you also send something to some other detainees?
5 A. Yes, I did, but I don't know their names. But be that as it may,
6 all the women knew my name because I was the chairman of the women's
7 organisation and that is how we cooperated. So if somebody knew somebody,
8 he would or she would give my name and I sent things to various people
9 through those who were on duty in the investigations centre.
10 Q. So you did not do it only through Mladjo Radic, did you?
11 A. No, not only. I also sent things through other people who worked
12 for the police or had connections with the police. I remember twins, one
13 of the twins. My colleague sent a note to me asking me to send some food,
14 some bread, and the young person -- there were young persons involved and
15 I thought they would need more of them. Afterwards I met them in Prijedor
16 and their mother, and I know that they are somewhere in Holland but I
17 don't know what they are doing. I haven't heard about them since.
18 Q. So they received what you sent them.
19 A. Yes, they did, and they thanked me. The sister's name was Azra
20 and she worked in the post office in Kozarac, and I met her in Prijedor
21 when I went -- as I was on my way to the bank. She was thanking me and
22 saying that she would never forget it. But then I heard that they had
23 left to the Netherlands, and I did not hear from them again.
24 Q. And my last question: During your acquaintanceship with the Radic
25 family, and especially Mladjo Radic, did you ever notice any signs of
1 ethnic intolerance towards other ethnic groups?
2 A. No, never. They were -- they are a very nice family. I never
3 noticed anything of the sorts.
4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no further
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do other Defence counsel have
7 any questions? No? I see they are indicating that they do not. Very
8 well. Thank you.
9 Now, Witness, you will answer the questions which the Prosecution
10 will ask you.
11 Yes, you have the floor.
12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:
14 Q. Before the war, Mrs. Vrhovac, where were you employed?
15 A. I work for the agricultural cooperative. That's where I was
16 employed before the war, during the war, and where I still work.
17 Q. Are you a representative of the firm Zepter?
18 A. Yes, yes, I am.
19 Q. What is your function in that organisation?
20 A. I'm a Zepter associate. I'm their salesperson, and I sell, on
21 their behalf, various cosmetics.
22 Q. Mrs. Vrhovac, what is the name of your husband?
23 A. Radivoje Vrhovac.
24 Q. What's his occupation?
25 A. He is an agricultural technician.
1 Q. Was he mobilised during the conflict, the war?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where?
4 A. He was mostly under labour obligation in Poljopromet, because
5 he was an -- he is an agricultural expert. He led the group that was
6 responsible for the sewing and things like that.
7 Q. Was he in Prijedor?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Mrs. Vrhovac, you are a person who has been engaged in a women's
10 association; am I correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you the president in 1992, January, in the women's
13 organisation, [redacted]
14 A. In Omarska neighbourhood community, I was the chairman, the
15 president of the women's organisation, and in the Kozarac neighbourhood
16 community, it was Kadira Kahrimanovic. I do not know whether Sabiha was
17 her deputy; I don't know that. But I cooperated with Mrs. Kadira
18 Kahrimanovic who chaired the organisation in Kozarac.
19 Q. Mrs. Vrhovac, were you a member of any other association during
20 the conflict and after the conflict?
21 A. Only the president of the women's organisation; nothing else.
22 Q. Were you a member of the Association of Serb Sisters during the
23 war in Prijedor? Do you know that association?
24 A. I know about that organisation but I wasn't a member.
25 Q. Were you a member of the women's organisation of the 5th Kozarac
1 Brigade, which was called in short form PET? I'm sure you remember that
2 as you were the chairwoman.
3 A. I was the president of the women's organisation and thus I worked,
4 cooperated, with women. We did simply what we had to do at the time, that
5 is, preparing food, collecting clothes, and things like that.
6 Q. My question was whether you were the chairman -- chairwoman of the
7 association of the 5th Kozarac Brigade which was called PET, during and
8 after the war?
9 A. I don't know of that name. I'm not aware of that name.
10 Naturally, I worked for it because we collected woollen socks or we knit
11 them. I organised women to knit woollen socks for the troops and we
12 gathered food and carried it to them. I don't remember its name. Perhaps
13 I misunderstood something.
14 Q. I don't understand your answer. You say, "I don't know that
15 name," but then subsequently you say, "Naturally, I worked for it because
16 we collected woollen socks." Did you organise an evening where woollen
17 socks were knitted and were collected for the soldiers in the front, the
18 Serbian soldiers?
19 A. Yes. I said that I organised it, that we knitted socks and
20 collected food and carried it over.
21 Q. Did you visit the front and see to the soldiers who were in the
22 front and the wounded, you and your organisation?
23 A. I did go to take the food on Easter, and I took them eggs and
24 sweets and woollen socks, woollen socks which were knit by the women in
25 the organisation.
1 Q. So you went to the front and saw the soldiers and the wounded in
2 the front; yes or no? That's what you said; am I correct?
3 A. I did see soldiers but not the wounded, because I only carried it
4 to a certain place and turned it over. I never saw any wounded; I cannot
5 say that.
6 Q. Mrs. Vrhovac, you knew that there was a camp where your earlier
7 friends, former friends, were detained in Omarska.
8 A. Yes, I knew --
9 Q. Did you go to the camp and attend to those people at any time?
10 A. I helped by sending food. I never went there, I never went there
11 at all. But I said, I already said --
12 Q. Did you make a request to go --
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Could Mr. Waidyaratne allow the witness
15 to finish the sentence and thus give the proper answer, to let the witness
16 say what she has to say? Or perhaps Mr. Waidyaratne will answer for her.
17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No, I won't -- I would allow the witness to
18 speak, Your Honour. I'm sorry if I disturbed the witness.
19 Q. Mrs. Vrhovac, now you spoke about the instance where Mr. Radic
20 informed you about a person Sabiha who was detained at the Omarska camp.
21 What exactly did you send? What was the parcel that you gave to Mr. Radic
22 to be taken to the camp?
23 A. The letter said that she needed some warm clothes, and I know I
24 sent some underwear with long sleeves, some T-shirts, and I remember a
25 pair of yellow trousers made of Indian cotton. It was in summertime. But
1 to remember every detail, really, I can't. I do know that there were some
2 body warmers with long sleeves, and I remember those trousers made of
3 Indian cotton.
4 Q. After the detention or thereafter, did you meet [redacted] at any
5 time after her detention? Yes or no?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know as to whether she received all of what you are
8 supposed to have sent through Mr. Radic? Do you know?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you at any time ask Mr. Radic as to why these people were
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did Mr. Radic tell you as to why these people were detained?
14 A. No, we did not discuss it at all.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The time, Mr. Waidyaratne.
16 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Last question, Your Honour.
17 Q. You said in your testimony in direct examination that, "These were
18 people who were enemies of our people." What did you mean by that?
19 A. Well, simply that is -- I didn't --
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.
21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Will Mr. Waidyaratne read what she
22 said exactly, please.
23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That's what I did, Your Honour. I would even
24 quote the line and the page if Mr. Fila wants it, but only thing, it's
25 taking the time.
1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, but let us spend time to cut -- or
2 rather, the truth.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, will you please
4 check if the witness said because -- ask first the witness if she did,
5 indeed, say that, and after that then proceed to asking your question.
6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Very well, very well.
7 Q. Did you say, "These were people who were enemies of our people,"
8 and, and you stopped. What did you mean by that?
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne,
10 Mr. Waidyaratne, first one question and then the second. You cannot
11 say -- wait for her answer. You cannot say, "Did you say that and what
12 did you mean by it?" Wait for the answer to your first question.
13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Very well, Your Honour. I'm sorry.
14 Q. Did you say, "These were people who were enemies of our people"?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What did you mean by that?
17 A. When the investigations centre was set up, it was said that there
18 were conflicts which -- the enemy of our people, and the investigations
19 centre was set up to prove it or disprove it.
20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very
23 Mr. Fila, do you have any additional questions?
24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The problem is whether the witness is
25 voicing her own opinion that they are the enemies of the Serb people, or
1 whether it was said, whether it was rumoured that they were the enemies of
2 the Serb people. That is what needs to be clarified because there is a
3 difference between the two.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila. Ask your
6 Re-examined by Mr. Fila:
7 Q. Mrs. Vrhovac, are you giving us your opinion, that they are the
8 enemies of the Serb people, or is it that you said that when I asked you
9 why couldn't all be taken at once, that it was too dangerous because it
10 was said that they were the enemies of the Serb people?
11 A. Correct, the latter. That is what was said, and that is why it
12 was dangerous to take it all at once, and one could take food only in
13 small quantities.
14 Q. So that was not your opinion, it was the story that went around.
15 A. Yes. I testified to the story that went around during those
16 days when the investigations centre was set up.
17 Q. But you didn't know who was there because you had never been to
19 A. I had never been to it.
20 Q. And do you know why people were there?
21 A. No, I don't, not exactly. Because conflicts started. No, I don't
23 Q. Very well. The next thing that I want to know, and to clarify
24 this, you were the president of the women's organisation in the Omarska
25 neighbourhood community; is that correct?
1 A. It is.
2 Q. And that was before the war?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then during the war, during all that, did you change the name
5 of that women's organisation?
6 A. That organisation went on working.
7 Q. Did you change it to some other name that Mr. Waidyaratne
9 A. I'm not -- no, I'm not aware of that.
10 Q. And my last question: Do you consider it an embarrassment, do you
11 consider it a disgrace to collect things and to help people who are
12 fighting against your people?
13 A. No, I didn't. I did that because, no, I did not think it would
14 disgrace me in any manner, and that is why I helped whoever asked me to
15 help him.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fila.
17 Judge Riad.
18 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] I do not have any questions.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Wald.
20 JUDGE WALD: Thank you. I have just a very few.
21 Questioned by the Court:
22 JUDGE WALD: The women's organisation before the war that you were
23 president of, you said that [redacted] had been a member of it and
24 that's how you knew her when you got the letter asking for clothes; is
25 that right?
1 A. [redacted] socialised with us because she was in the women's
2 organisation in Kozarac.
3 JUDGE WALD: Right, I understand that. I wanted to clarify. Then
4 the women's organisations before the war had both Serb and Muslim members?
5 I mean, in other words, Muslim women could belong as well as Serb women,
6 maybe Croat women; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE WALD: Now, after the war broke out, you told us that the
9 women's organisation continued to function during the war.
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE WALD: Did it continue to function with Muslim members, with
12 Muslim women belonging? Did they continue -- did some Muslim women
13 continue to be members of the women's organisation after the war started?
14 A. There was a Croat woman who worked with us. Unfortunately, she
15 passed away. And those women who happened to be there just went on
16 working. Women who used to live and work in my organisation before that
17 simply went on working.
18 JUDGE WALD: Including some Muslim women? In other words, during
19 the war, did the women's organisation have any Muslim women working with
21 A. That organisation had stopped working; that is, we were not
22 active. The Omarska neighbourhood community organisation went on working
23 as before.
24 JUDGE WALD: And did it have any Muslim members during the war,
25 the Omarska neighbourhood women's community organisation?
1 A. No.
2 JUDGE WALD: Now, my only other question is, when I first heard
3 you testify, and I want to make sure that this is correct - tell me if
4 it's not correct - I thought that you said that when you brought the
5 clothes for Mr. Radic to take to [redacted], there were a lot of
6 clothes and that Mr. Radic said he might not be able to take them all at
7 once because it might not look good if it were too obvious he was taking
8 so many clothes because there were people that said people in the camp
9 were enemies of the people; and that it was Mr. Radic who said there were
10 others who believed that the people in the camp were enemies of the
11 people, and that's why he wasn't going to take all the clothes at once.
12 Is that right, or did I misunderstand?
13 A. No, that is not what Mr. Radic said. Mr. Radic said, "I'll try to
14 take it over on different occasions, to take it part by part."
15 JUDGE WALD: So the business of some people thinking that people
16 in the camp were enemies of the public was something you had heard other
17 people say; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Wald.
21 Mrs. Vrhovac, I also have two short questions. At the time, did
22 you have an opinion about why some people were detained in Omarska?
23 A. No.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You could offer no reason at
1 A. No, because I cooperated, I communicated, I had contact with my
2 colleagues from the women's organisation until the very last moment. I
3 simply didn't ...
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you tell us that you did not
5 know what the reason was, that those people were the enemy of your people,
6 that was that. But I wonder, and that is my question, did you have any
7 idea, did you have any idea why were those people kept there?
8 A. No.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you didn't know it; you never
10 thought about that. Very well.
11 Another question: In Omarska before the war, were there any
12 Muslim women in your organisation?
13 A. Yes, there were.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Right,
15 Mrs. Vrhovac, we do not have any further questions to ask you. Thank you
16 very much for coming. We wish you successful work and a happy return to
17 your home.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The usher will help you out of
20 the courtroom.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right. We shall now make a
23 break, a half-hour break.
24 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
2 I take advantage of this opportunity to inform the parties, and
3 more specifically Mr. Jovan Simic, that I have indeed contacted the Office
4 of the President and requested an urgent provisional decision, without
5 prejudice, as to subsequent developments. So what I have promised I have
7 We can now have the witness brought in, Mr. Fila, the next
8 witness. Miroslav Rosic; is that right?
9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, it is Miroslav Rosic, and
10 Mr. Jovanovic will be the examiner.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Miroslav
13 Rosic. Can you hear me?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will you please read the solemn
16 declaration given to you by the usher.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: MIROSLAV ROSIC
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
22 [In English] Will you put on the other mic, please. Turn it on.
24 [Interpretation] Thank you very much for coming. You will be
25 first answering questions put to you by Mr. Jovanovic.
1 Mr. Jovanovic, your witness.
2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Examined by Mr. Jovanovic:
4 Q. Mr. Rosic, tell us, please, when you were born.
5 A. On the 23rd of September, 1962.
6 Q. Where? Where were you born, Mr. Rosic?
7 A. In Omarska.
8 Q. Where are you living now?
9 A. In Omarska.
10 Q. What do you do?
11 A. I drive an ambulance in the health centre.
12 Q. Mr. Rosic, before the outbreak of the war in Prijedor, did you
13 know Mladjo Radic?
14 A. Yes, I did. He was a policeman in Omarska and we lived close by.
15 Q. Mr. Rosic, can you think back to 1992, the end of May or the
16 beginning of June, when you had to make a trip with your vehicle?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Something linked to Mladjo Radic, in a way.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you please tell us about that event, and exactly what
22 A. Sometime at the end of May or the beginning of June, I don't know
23 exactly, I know that I was on duty in the health centre, as usual, and
24 there was a call from the police station; that is, Mr. Mladjo himself
25 called up and said that a vehicle -- an ambulance was out of order on the
1 road with a mother inside with a seriously injured child, and that we
2 needed to go there immediately to transport the mother and child to the
3 hospital in Banja Luka. And on that occasion, Mr. Radic mentioned that he
4 had a family relationship with the mother and child in the car, and he
5 asked me to assist them as much as I can and to stay with them for as long
6 as is necessary.
7 Q. Do you remember the names of the mother and the hurt boy?
8 A. The lady's name was Senada, I think, Denic, and a nine- or
9 eight-year-old boy whose name I don't know.
10 Q. Do you know what ethnicity they were?
11 A. They were Muslims. I think they were Muslims, judging by their
12 names and surnames.
13 Q. Did you know whether they were linked to the Radic family?
14 A. Yes. Mladjo mentioned that they were related. But as we set off
15 very soon, then the child's mother, Mrs. Denic, told me that they were
16 kums, that the two families had this kum relationship.
17 Q. While you were driving the ambulance in those days, did you go to
18 Banja Luka?
19 A. Yes. That evening too we stayed until late, and on the way back
20 again, when I came home, Mladjo was waiting for me in the morning. He
21 inquired about the condition of the mother and child and asked me to call
22 him back and report to him on their improvement, whenever I had any
23 contact with them, whenever I went to Banja Luka.
24 Q. Did you take anything to Mrs. Denic and her son when you went to
25 see them?
1 A. On the second day, Mladjo gave me some money. I think it was his
2 salary that he just received. And he gave this money to me to give to
3 her so that she would have it on her.
4 Q. Did you take anything else, apart from money?
5 A. On one occasion, that is, on the third or further day, I went to
6 Banja Luka, I carried a parcel with food inside.
7 Q. Mr. Rosic, are you aware of any of your colleagues or somebody
8 else taking things to that family?
9 A. Yes. As far as I know, the other drivers too were contacted by
10 Mladjo and he sent food through them also.
11 Q. What did Mrs. Senada Denic tell you, if anything, when you met
12 her, bringing her these things?
13 A. The first day, the woman was terribly shaken up, as anyone would
14 be because of the condition of the child. As I stayed there all night,
15 whenever I would bring food or money, she would express endless gratitude
16 to this person, to this man who had shown such concern for the child and
17 herself. She was grateful to us as well but especially to him.
18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have
19 no further questions. Thank you, Mr. Rosic.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Any of the other Defence counsel
21 that have any questions for this witness? I see they do not.
22 In that case, Mr. Waidyaratne, your witness.
23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:
25 Q. Mr. Rosic, are you a relation of Mr. Zeljko Meakic?
1 A. He is a distant relative of my mother's.
2 Q. Do you live in the same flat where Mr. Meakic lives?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you live, in 1992, during the war and prior to the war, in the
5 same block of flats?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Mr. Rosic, other than the ambulance that you drove, did you drive
8 any other vehicles for the army when you were mobilised?
9 A. No.
10 Q. During the conflict, when Kozarac was attacked, were you in the
11 area where the Muslims were cleared out?
12 A. At the time the conflict broke out in Prijedor municipality, I was
13 in the medical units of the 1st Krajina Corps, exclusively in the
14 medical units and medical teams that went into the field to care for the
15 soldiers of the army of Republika Srpska. In those days, it was still the
16 Territorial Defence, I think.
17 Q. Now, during that time, you helped only the soldiers who were
18 wounded; is that correct? That was your duty, yes?
19 A. Yes, yes, yes.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Rosic, you said -- coming to the event where Mr. Radic
21 called you from the police, did Mr. Radic identify himself when he
22 called? Did he say, "I'm Mladjo Radic"?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You answered the phone at the health centre.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And this was the health centre which was at Omarska.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did Mr. Radic say as to who was the name of the person who was
4 injured and the person -- the mother's name, the boy's mother's name, to
6 A. I think he didn't. I don't think he did.
7 Q. But he -- Mr. Radic, when he called, he said, "I'm Mladjo Radic.
8 I'm calling from the Omarska Police Station." That's your position?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Now, you spoke about what Mr. Radic -- how he helped this Denic.
11 You referred to the mother of the boy, the injured boy, as Senada Denic;
12 am I correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Rosic, you would have had opportunity to speak with
15 Senada because you said that you were there with her in the first instance
16 when you took the boy and the mother to Banja Luka hospital. Did you know
17 as to who was the husband of this Senada Denic, the name and as to what
18 his profession was?
19 A. She told me that her husband used to work in the Omarska Police
20 Station, though I don't know the gentleman.
21 Q. Did you know Mr. Ibrahim Denic, the policeman who worked in
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did she tell you as to what happened to Ibrahim Denic during the
25 time of the conflict?
1 A. I think that she didn't. At that point in time, our only concern,
2 both hers and mine, was the child so we didn't talk about anything else.
3 Q. Correct. But later on, because you seem to have taken things from
4 Radic to Mrs. Denic and the boy who was in hospital in Banja Luka, but
5 even that, did you ask as to where her husband was, as to where he was?
6 A. Mrs. Denic stayed in Banja Luka with a woman that we found
7 together --
8 Q. I'm sorry.
9 A. -- and I think that she didn't know where her husband was.
10 Q. No. My question is: Did she -- I'm asking as to whether she told
11 you at any time about her husband being -- as to where he was during that
13 A. I think that she told me that she didn't know where he was.
14 Q. Did Mr. Radic tell you that Mr. Ibrahim Denic was detained?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you know -- did you ask him as to where this policeman,
17 Mr. Denic, was, ask Mr. Radic?
18 A. No. My duties were such that in those days, I didn't have time to
19 talk at any length with anybody. We really were loaded with work.
20 Q. Yes. But during these busy times that you talk about, you met
21 Mr. Radic and took things, according to your testimony, to Mrs. Denic
22 when you went to Banja Luka. That's your position; isn't that true?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, during this time, didn't you also ask, "Where is the father
25 of this boy?" At least from Mr. Radic, you didn't.
1 A. No, no.
2 Q. No. Did Mrs. Denic, Senada Denic, tell you about her brother,
3 Midhat Fazlic who was detained at the Omarska camp?
4 A. No, she didn't say anything about that.
5 Q. Did Mr. Radic say that there was a brother of this lady whom he is
6 helping by the name of Midhat Fazlic who was detained at the Omarska camp?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Mr. Rosic, did Mr. Radic ask you to assist any other Muslim
9 detainee during this time?
10 A. I was mostly assigned to care for soldiers of the army of
11 Republika Srpska. Then everything else was done by the civilian services
12 in those days.
13 Q. I'm sorry. I don't think you understood my question. Did
14 Mr. Radic ask you to assist any other Muslim detainee during this time;
15 yes or no?
16 A. No. We had no contacts among each other to discuss such things.
17 There were other departments in the health centre who took care of such
19 Q. Now, do you remember the vehicle JNAK3742, the number?
20 A. 3742?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. I did drive a military ambulance. Whether it had that
23 registration number, I don't know.
24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Please bear with me, Your Honour. I have only
25 one more question.
1 Q. My question again: Did Mr. Radic ask you to assist any other
2 Muslim during this period?
3 A. I've told you already, my primary responsible was to care for
4 soldiers. Probably they addressed other people in the medical centre who
5 had such responsibilities.
6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I have no further questions. Thank you, Your
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
9 Mr. Waidyaratne.
10 Mr. Jovanovic, any additional questions?
11 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, just
13 Re-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:
14 Q. Mr. Rosic, this thing that you did, that you took the child to
15 Banja Luka, was that something outside your regular duties?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
19 Mr. Jovanovic.
20 Judge Fouad Riad? Judge Wald?
21 Mr. Rosic, I have a few questions.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Rosic, I have a few
24 questions. If I understood correctly, the health centre where you were
25 working was in Omarska, was it not?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And before the conflict, did you
3 work in the same place or not?
4 A. No.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Where were you working before
6 the war?
7 A. In Celpak, a company in Prijedor.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you. You've
9 answered my questions. Thank you very much, Mr. Rosic, for coming, and I
10 wish you a safe journey home. The usher will accompany you out. Thank
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, is the next witness
15 Bogdan Delic? Yes, if we follow the order, then we can anticipate
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Delic. Can
19 you hear me?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, good morning, Your Honour. I
21 hear you.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will now be reading the
23 solemn declaration handed to you by the usher. Please proceed.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: BOGDAN DELIC
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Try and sit
4 comfortably. You will start off by answering questions put to you by
5 Mr. Fila.
6 Mr. Fila, your witness.
7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President, but by your
8 leave, Mr. Zoran Jovanovic has asked to leave the courtroom to call our
9 sixth witness, because I see we're getting things done today quickly.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Please go ahead,
11 Mr. Jovanovic.
12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, please proceed.
14 Examined by Mr. Fila:
15 Q. Mr. Rosic, could you tell us please where and when you were born?
16 I apologise, not Mr. Rosic. Mr. Delic, would you tell us when and where
17 you were born?
18 A. I was born in 1950, on the 15th of April, in Sokolac.
19 Q. What are you by profession?
20 A. I am a graduate of the political science faculty.
21 Q. Where do you work?
22 A. I work in Prijedor.
23 Q. What is your ethnicity?
24 A. I am a Serb.
25 Q. Your religion?
1 A. Orthodox.
2 Q. Marital status?
3 A. I am married with two children.
4 Q. Mr. Delic, in 1993, what job were you performing?
5 A. In 1993, I was the Chief of the Public Security Station of
7 Q. At some time during that year, did you propose policeman Mladjo
8 Radic -- did you put him forward for an award of any kind?
9 A. Yes. We were celebrating police day, and his colleagues from the
10 police department of Omarska put him forward for an award, and I passed it
11 on to the authorities for his work merits over a period of 20 years, in
12 addition to a number of other policemen who were put forward for an award
13 as well.
14 Q. At that time in Omarska, it was the police department, was it not?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who was the commander, the chief?
17 A. The chief of that police department was Zeljko Meakic.
18 Q. Can you tell us the structure, the makeup and organisation of the
19 police department?
20 A. The police department is the lowest unit numbering 15 to 20
21 people, and that's how many that particular department had. It had its
22 commander and it had a schedule with shifts. There were patrol leaders,
23 patrol sector leaders. One or two experienced policemen were on the
24 field, on the terrain, who would report back to the commander of the
25 department which was then forwarded on to the police station. And I
1 was informed of the daily occurrences, and if there was any need, then I
2 would react.
3 Q. In that police department -- the police department is where Mladjo
4 Radic worked?
5 A. Yes. Mladjo Radic worked as an ordinary policeman, on the beat,
6 in the Omarska Police Department.
7 Q. Do you know what qualifications he held and what he was trained
9 A. Mladjo Radic, as far as I was informed, worked as an ordinary
10 policeman. He had attended policeman's courses and finished them,
11 graduated, and he had about 20 years of work experience. That was
12 considered a jubilee number of years. On the basis of his work
13 experience, his colleagues put him forward for an award for those 20 years
14 of work. A symbolic sum of money at that time. We did not receive
15 salaries at that time, but it was a sort of remuneration for his 20 years
16 of work and would go towards helping his family to make ends meet.
17 Q. An individual with that kind of qualification, that is to say, who
18 had graduated from a training course, were they in line for any command
19 structure and position of command?
20 A. No. With that kind of qualification, all that people of that kind
21 could be were policemen on the beat, in a sector, covering a certain
23 Q. The award that was mentioned, the initiative, as you say, came
24 from the police department, did it not, in Omarska?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So you then passed that nomination on forward. Who did you pass
2 it on to?
3 A. To the Ministry in Banja Luka and the Security Services Centre
5 Q. And what was the feedback information you received about the
6 people who were to receive the awards?
7 A. We received a list of people who were to be rewarded for
8 Policeman's Day, the 21st of November. They were symbolic awards. Mladjo
9 would have perhaps got a bigger award, like a gold watch, for his services
10 had the times been normal.
11 Q. Who took the decision to award him?
12 A. The security services sector or, rather, the Ministry.
13 Q. Can I say that you just signed the decision but you did not bring
14 the decision yourself?
15 A. I could only nominate people for the award but I couldn't make the
16 decision myself, and that is what I did. I passed this nomination on.
17 Q. Who compiled the decision itself?
18 A. His colleagues formulated the reasons for which they were
19 nominating him for an award, and I forwarded this. It was his jubilee for
20 working 20 years in the police force, for the kind of conduct he always
21 had, his assistance to younger colleagues, the work he did on the beat, on
22 patrol. He was successful in his work so they compiled a document of this
23 kind by way of nomination. I accepted this and sent it on forward,
24 because Mladjo was, indeed, an experienced policeman. I sent it on to the
25 Banja Luka Security Services Centre and they okayed it, they approved the
1 nomination, along with a list of others, other worthy policemen.
2 Q. The decision itself, that is to say, the nomination request, was
3 it written in the same way as it was for the other policemen?
4 A. Yes. For the years of experience, for the conduct at work and
5 everything else, it would be the same sort of nomination request that was
6 written for everyone.
7 Q. Did the award represent a sort of financial contribution in view
8 of the salaries or lack of salaries?
9 A. Well, as we did not receive salaries during that time, it was
10 remuneration which would help. We did not receive any salaries in 1992
11 and 1993, in view of the circumstances and the events that were taking
12 place. And at that time, Mladjo had a large family and so that was
13 another thing that motivated us to help him. In addition to his 20 years
14 of experience, his jubilee of 20 years, we also wished to help the family
15 in this way.
16 Q. As a high-ranking or fairly high-ranking police official, you had
17 occasion to be acquainted with the rules of work of the security organs;
18 is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You were commander, chief of the public security station in
21 Prijedor; is that right?
22 A. Yes, the public security station.
23 Q. Did you have any deputies, assistants, department heads, or
24 anything of that kind?
25 A. I had both a deputy and an assistant, and I had police departments
1 which, in turn, had their commanders. We had the traffic police that had
2 its commander; we had the crime squad or crime department. And the police
3 stations also had their chain of command, whereas the police departments
4 did not. They just had the commander for that particular police
6 Q. In the organisation of the police force, in general terms,
7 generally speaking, is there a service which would be called shift leader?
8 A. Well, no. There is only the duty officer or officers who are on
9 standby all the time and at the disposal of the department.
10 Q. Mr. Delic, the police department, was it its job to provide
11 security for a building or to step in in the case of a fire or some other
12 extraordinary event?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If there were several shifts covering one day, two days, three
15 days, or four days, or whatever, could you tell us how this was organised,
16 how the rotation, the roster was organised and who would do this?
17 A. The department commander knew the exact number of employees, and
18 according to the Rules of Service, he would distribute the workers he had
19 into shifts covering 24 hours. The first shift would work for a certain
20 time and they would be replaced by the second shift, and when they would
21 take over shifts, they would report to the person on duty who would
22 receive the report and then the others would go on duty for the area that
23 was covered, that kind of thing.
24 Q. If there were any changes in this schedule, what would happen?
25 A. If there were unforeseen situations like floods or fires, or a
1 traffic accident of any kind, then more policemen would be sent to that
2 area. They would be called, placed on the alert, and go to help out their
3 colleagues for an extraordinary situation of this kind.
4 Q. Let us return to 1992. You were not in the region of Omarska and
5 Prijedor at that time; is that correct?
6 A. No, I was not.
7 Q. Let us take the Omarska Police Department, working with a number
8 of policemen and going about its usual business. Suddenly, it receives
9 the task of providing security for the Omarska Investigations Centre. How
10 would it do this? How would it perform that assignment?
11 A. Well, the department could not do all this without reinforcements,
12 without having more people sent in as reinforcements.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, you are on your
15 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. I'm just curious, I don't recall
16 any testimony that this individual was involved in the police department
17 in 1992. That would lead to a lack of knowledge.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, you will have
19 the opportunity of cross-examining the witness on the subject. The
20 witness said that he wasn't on the spot in Omarska at the time. Mr. Fila
21 went on to ask about the rules and how the rules provided for the
22 situation in Omarska. So you will have your chance, Ms. Somers.
23 But, Mr. Fila, please proceed.
24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Providing security for a large centre -- investigation centre of
1 this kind would be much more work, a greater work load.
2 A. Yes, it would, and it would mean more people to cover that
4 Q. And you explained to us a moment ago that you would call the
5 reserve forces.
6 A. Yes, the reserve police force or policemen from other departments
7 or sectors, that would be called in as reinforcements and assigned to the
8 various tasks.
9 Q. Bearing in mind the fact that this would be, for example, a
10 provisional security, provide provisional security, temporary security,
11 not permanent but only for a given period of time, what would happen then?
12 A. Then a decision would be taken to take on temporary
13 reinforcements, provisional reinforcements.
14 Q. I see. I understand. Would this require a change in the command
15 structure and the chain of command?
16 A. This would not require a change in the command structure, not
18 Q. My last question. Does the commander of a police department, any
19 police department, like the one in Omarska, for example, does he have the
20 right to change command structure?
21 A. No, he does not have the right to change the command structure
22 without agreement from the Ministry or Security Services Centre or the
23 chief of the police station.
24 Q. To clarify points, a decision would have to be taken at a much
25 higher level; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. A request would have to be sent to me, as the chief of the
2 police station, and I would have to pass it on further up the line to the
3 Public Security Services Centre which would, in turn, have to ask the
4 Ministry of Internal Affairs in order to change the structure work in the
5 area on the spot.
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
7 questions, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, I should like to take
9 advantage of this opportunity to ask you: How long would all this take?
10 If a request came to you and you sent it further up the chain of command,
11 up the line, how long would it take you to receive a decision of this kind
13 A. As this is done by telegramme or telegraph, it would require about
14 ten days. If it is an urgent situation, then it might require less than
15 ten days. But usually about ten days.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. Would any of
17 the other Defence counsel like to ask the witness any questions?
18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I have just one
19 question to ask.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go ahead, Mr. Krstan
22 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
23 Q. Mr. Delic, did you have occasion to learn whether a request of
24 that kind was sent to the Ministry, by the procedure you have just
1 A. During my mandate, we did not because there was no need to.
2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Any of the other counsel? No?
4 I see negative signs.
5 The Prosecution, and it is Ms. Susan Somers, I believe, who is
6 going to cross-examine this witness.
7 Mr. Delic, you will now be answering questions put to you by
8 Ms. Susan Somers. Your witness, Ms. Somers.
9 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:
10 Q. Mr. Delic, in 1992, there was a decision taken by the Crisis
11 Staff, was there not, let's say between May and July, that appointed you
12 to a position of acting principal of the high school; is that correct?
13 A. No, I was not the principal of the primary school but of the high
14 school, the secondary school.
15 Q. I believe that's what I asked you. So you were appointed as
16 acting principal of the high school in May 1992; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You were an educator; is that correct?
19 A. Professor.
20 Q. An educator. You have never had a day of police training in your
21 life; is that correct?
22 A. No.
23 Q. No, you have not had, or no, you have had. Have you ever had a
24 day of police training in your life?
25 A. No, I have not.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 Q. You were an active SDS member, were you not? Very active in
3 A. No.
4 Q. You received your appointment to the job succeeding Simo Drljaca
5 because of your political SDS appointment -- I'm sorry, connections, not
6 because of police training; is that not a fact?
7 A. That is not how it was. I was on the battlefield in 1992. In
8 1993, up till the end -- up to the end of May. And through the media I
9 learned that I was a candidate put forward to perform the function of
10 chief of the police station in Prijedor. It wasn't along political
11 lines. I was not an active member. I was just a member of the League of
12 Communists until 1990; I had been a member for 20 years. And after the
13 end of my political activity within the League of Communists, I
14 voluntarily stepped down from the League of Communists. I was no longer a
15 member, nor was I a member of any other party or appeared as such
16 anywhere. I was probably nominated because I learnt from the newspapers
17 that there were to be some changes, and I learnt that I was probably put
18 forward for my human qualities. I was the principal of secondary schools
19 for ten years; I was a teacher, a professor, for 15 years. Somebody must
20 have remembered my name and put me forward, and that's how I was elected.
21 I took on the job in order to calm the situation. I thought that it would
22 be easier for me doing that rather than being on the battlefield.
23 Q. What street did you live on in 1991, please? Let's say in June of
25 A. In 1991, where I live today and where I lived in 1985, and that is
1 Pecani H 36, fourth floor or Petra Zimonjica Mitropolita Street.
2 MS. SOMERS: I would ask the usher, for just a moment, to put on
3 an exhibit that I do not intend to seek admission on, just to put it on
4 the ELMO. It is from the Prijedor collection.
5 Q. I just want to ask you a question about it, please. The document
6 is in Serbo-Croat. It is a document, at the top -- excuse me. Could you
7 move it down just a little bit, Mr. Usher? Just a tiny bit. It is dated
8 24 June, 1991, and it refers to, does it not, members of the municipality
9 of Prijedor in the SDS. Is that your name at the bottom of that list?
10 Just yes or no.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.
12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I merely wish to draw the Court's
13 attention to the fact that when I did this same thing yesterday with the
14 marriage certificate of the witness, Ms. Susan Somers objected. But as I
15 am chivalrous and a gentleman, I am not going to do that. I am just going
16 to draw the attention of the Court to this.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.
18 MS. SOMERS: Actually, Your Honour, my recollection is that we did
19 not object to it being used in the testimony. We asked questions from it
20 as well. Mr. Fila volunteered to not seek admission until he brought an
21 original, but we had no objection whatsoever to questioning from it. I'm
22 not asking to admit this document. I'd just like to have a question
23 answered from the document.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. But would you remind me of
25 yesterday's context? What was the objective of your objection yesterday
1 with respect to the document, the marriage certificate, that was shown,
2 the marriage certificate?
3 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour, for interrupting you. I
4 don't recall raising an objection. We asked questions from it. It was at
5 the end of the session yesterday where Mr. Fila made an announcement. I
6 recall no objection whatsoever, to be honest with you. I can check the
7 record that we used the document as well. And he had concerns about its
8 possible validity. We had no problem.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but Mr. Fila will remind us
10 of that now.
11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers objected and said that I
12 submitted the document in one copy and that I'm asking the witness
13 questions about a document that the Prosecution has not seen, had a chance
14 to see. Similarly, none of us have seen this document, nor have we been
15 given copies of the document. All I wish to say is that she should not do
16 what she has objected to me doing.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I had that in mind but I
18 did not want to put that forward. Would it be possible for the Defence to
19 see this document, Ms. Somers? Because we have to clear up a matter.
20 When I say "you," you, both parties, when you're using a document, you
21 should either show it to the other side or not use it. You can use
22 documents and ask questions about them, but could you please show the
23 document to both sides; that is to say, could you now show the document to
24 Mr. Fila?
25 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. The only copy I have at this time
1 is what is on the ELMO. But if I may let the Court know, there was a
2 66(B) request and that was the subject of yesterdays discussion.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Somers, but even the
4 Judges would like to see the document at least. So the document can be
5 circulated, if you permit. All we need is to take a look at the document
6 and we'll hand it back to you. Is that possible?
7 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I'd be very happy to. I'm sorry. We
8 have a technical glitch. Our trial support person is supposed to be
9 bringing down copies for everyone and they have not arrived. So having
10 advanced rather quickly, I do not have extra copies. I would be delighted
11 to give up my copy but that's all I have with me in court now, waiting for
12 the copies.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I too would like to have a look
14 at the document.
15 Mr. Usher, could you show the Judges the document, please, and the
16 Defence as well.
17 Excuse me. Usher, other counsel, please. Mr. Krstan Simic and
18 then other counsel too.
19 Right. Ms. Susan Somers, you may ask your question.
20 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much.
21 Q. Mr. Delic, if you would be kind enough to -- thank you very much.
22 Just a quick question about that document. In June of 1991, did you have
23 any particularly high position in the SDS, or were you simply a member?
24 A. I wasn't a member, nor did I have a high position. I was a
25 principal of a secondary school. Let me just give you an example.
1 Q. That's okay.
2 A. There is a --
3 Q. I would like to move on. We have very little time. Thank you.
4 A. You can see that this is not --
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm going to intervene.
6 Ms. Somers, I believe that I heard from the witness that he was a member
7 of the League of Communists and that after that he was not a member of any
8 other party. And you asked him, "Did you have any particularly high
9 position in the SDS?"
10 MS. SOMERS:
11 Q. If I may be permitted to backtrack and ask if the name Bogdan
12 Delic on this document is a different person from yourself in Prijedor,
13 and is it a very common name?
14 A. I don't know, but this is not my address, because I live in Pecani
15 H 36/4, or at present at Petra Zimonjica. It is my first name and last
16 name, but at that time I was the secondary school principal and I wasn't a
17 member of any party.
18 Q. Do you know any other Bogdan Delics in Prijedor? Do you know any;
19 yes or no?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you, please, you made a comment --
22 excuse me. You were asked by Mr. Fila about: "In the organisation of the
23 police force in general terms, generally speaking, is there a service
24 which could be called shift leader?" and your answer was, "No."
25 I'd like to ask a quick question of you. Miroslav Kvocka took the
1 stand recently, and on page -- I'm not sure if it is the official one, but
2 on the 16th of February, Mr. Kvocka made a comment about changes in the
3 police service. He said that Bogdan Delic, who was the chief at that
4 time, "saw for himself that his work was very good. And in the next
5 organisation of the work of the service, there was a decision made whereby
6 I was appointed to the position of the shift leader at the Police Station
7 Prijedor 1."
8 Now, Mr. Kvocka is an experienced police officer. Is there
9 something wrong in his description of that position?
10 A. No.
11 Q. When were you, if at all, in the Omarska camp? Not the mine
12 before it became the camp, but the camp itself.
13 A. I don't know. Never.
14 Q. Were you not there as a member of Cigo's group in May of 1992?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Are you friendly with Radinovic, Momcilo Radinovic, known as
17 Cigo? Have you had any dealings with him politically, professionally?
18 A. Political, no, because I wasn't active in politics. But I do know
19 him because Momcilo Radinovic was the municipal mayor in 1992/1993, and we
20 knew each other in 1992 -- 1991/1992.
21 Q. What was your salary when you were a principal for the high
22 school, please? How much money were you making?
23 A. Well, it depends. Salaries varied between 1.000 to 2.000 marks,
24 from 200 marks to, depending on the seniority and on the circumstances.
25 At times the salaries were quite sufficient; at times we barely made the
1 ends meet.
2 Q. What did you do after you were working in the Prijedor police
3 structure as the chief of police? What did you do? Did you go off to
4 Serbia for awhile?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did you buy some shops and make some money at working some
8 A. No.
9 Q. What did you do there?
10 A. I worked privately for my living because my son was studying at
11 the university, and my daughter was in secondary school. And because I
12 was dismissed from work in 1995, I had to begin to work for the public
13 security centre in Prijedor.
14 Q. You did not buy a butcher shop and run some other shops in
15 Serbia? Are you sure?
16 A. I am.
17 Q. Now, when you decided to give or approve of an award to Mladjo
18 Radic on the -- I guess it's the 11th of August, 1993, that award was
19 because he was such a competent, good policeman, wasn't it? It was for
20 positive contribution to the police force.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And how well did you know Radic?
23 A. Well, I knew him for about a year. But he was nominated by his
24 colleagues, not by me, his colleagues from Omarska who knew him very well,
25 and his colleagues from the Prijedor Police Station who knew him because
1 Radic used to work in Ljubija. And they suggested to me to forward this
2 nomination to Banja Luka, to the centre, and that is what they did. And
3 the centre accepted it and saw it as a positive move on my side, and that
4 is how it was granted. It also could have ended in a different way.
5 Q. I'm sorry to the interpreters. Did you know what took place at
6 Omarska camp and at Keraterm and at Trnopolje and at Manjaca? Did you
7 know what took place on the territory over which you had police control?
8 A. When I had my term of office with the police, it was quiet and
9 nothing was happening. And before that I was not in the area because I
10 was on the front, and therefore I did not know about that. I know there
11 was a collections centre in Keraterm and Trnopolje and another collection
12 centre in Omarska. What went on and why, I really did not know. I was
13 not there and I had no part in it.
14 Q. Did you make it your business to know, or did you ask your
15 predecessor, Simo Drljaca, who closed those camps once their existence and
16 horrors became known to the International Community? Did you ask?
17 A. No, because I wasn't on good terms with Simo. Simo was the one
18 who dismissed me later. We did not discuss that. Simo was in Bijeljina.
19 MS. SOMERS: No further questions.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me. "Simo was killed" was the end of the
21 witness' answer.
22 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry -- I'm terribly sorry, Your Honour. I was
23 misinformed or I misunderstood something from my own team and I wanted to
24 get a document in but I didn't think I had it. Would the Chamber permit
25 me a minute to show a document that is available to the entire room. I
1 was under the impression that it was still upstairs? No? Okay. I'm
2 sorry. I'm terribly sorry about that.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Somers, you finished,
4 so -- and I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to tell you,
5 yes, I believe that Mr. Fila had objected because yesterday you objected
6 because the Defence had not given the document to the Prosecution in
7 advance, so that was that. And I think we have to maintain the balance.
8 MS. SOMERS: In fact, Mr. Fila's people are up reviewing all
9 of our documents now under 66(B) so it's at our disposal.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right. But we know that you
11 have somebody to bring the document in and things can work better.
12 Yes, Mr. Fila, do you have any other questions?
13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour. I don't
14 have any other questions.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic.
16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have only two
18 Further cross-examination by Mr. K. Simic:
19 Q. Mr. Delic, in the police system, is there a job called the shift
21 And in your job assignment system, does it say what this person is
22 responsible for?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And do these rule also envisage what does a -- what conditions
25 need to be met so that the responsible person in the Ministry appoints a
1 person to that particular workplace?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no
4 further questions.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 Judge Riad, do you have any questions?
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Delic, good morning.
9 A. Good morning.
10 JUDGE RIAD: You hear me?
11 A. Yes, I can hear you.
12 JUDGE RIAD: Perhaps you are in a position, owing to the important
13 position you were in, to answer my general request. In case of a
14 violation committed by the command, you spoke about the command -- the
15 change of the command structure should be done by the Ministry of Internal
16 Affairs, and so on. In case of a violation committed by one of the
17 commanders, what are the possibilities given to the subordinate people
18 under him to take action or to react?
19 A. Well, these possibilities were very limited. A suggestion,
20 proposal, could be made to the higher instance to take appropriate
21 measures against such persons, and how that would be done or not, because
22 one did not necessarily have to believe them. They did not have any
23 direct contact, so that they could do very little.
24 JUDGE RIAD: If they resigned, could they be in danger?
25 A. Well, anything may happen. Depends on the circumstances.
1 Criminal charges could be brought against them for the infraction of the
2 Rules of Service. For instance, they could also be brought to account,
3 why they had done this or that.
4 JUDGE RIAD: And during the period during which you were in
5 office, did anybody react against anything or resign or make a report
6 concerning a violation, whether in the Omarska camp or anything under your
8 A. Well, I had nothing to do with the Omarska camp at that time so I
9 really don't know. I'm not aware of that.
10 JUDGE RIAD: In general, not necessarily in Omarska.
11 A. I don't know that anyone resigned. At the time when I was the
12 chief, there was no need for that because the situation was quite
13 satisfactory. It was quiet.
14 JUDGE RIAD: And you were the chief until 1995?
15 A. Between 1993 -- 1993 and 1994.
16 JUDGE RIAD: You said that Simo Drljaca dismissed you, I think, in
17 1995. Was that right?
18 A. That's right.
19 JUDGE RIAD: Could he dismiss anybody without reason, or was there
20 some kind of motivation?
21 A. He submitted a proposal to the Ministry to dismiss me. Why he did
22 that, I do not know. But be that as it may, I was dismissed.
23 JUDGE RIAD: Because you mentioned before that only the Ministry
24 of Internal Affairs was capable of making these changes. So it's the
25 whole -- it seems like a long process which is examined. So did they --
1 were they -- were you, not accused, but did they take anything against
3 A. Well, I don't know. I was put on the waiting list on the 15th of
4 May, 1994, and I was on the waiting list until the 2nd of February, 1995,
5 when I received the decision that my contract was terminated in August and
6 that there was no need for it, that I was completely laid off. But I
7 filed charges against them and I won the case, and the judgement was
8 passed in 1996. But I was returned to my job in 1998, only as late as
10 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you spoke of the award which was given to
11 Mr. Radic, and you mentioned it was for his work in general and his work
12 during 1993. Did this also -- was this also a reward for his attitude,
13 for his work in the Omarska camp?
14 A. No, it has nothing to do with Omarska. It was for his 20 years of
15 work experience. At the time when I was his chief, his colleagues
16 favourably spoke about his work during those 20 years, and they nominated
17 him and intended it also as a kind of financial assistance.
18 JUDGE RIAD: Was he at the Omarska camp at that time, when he got
19 the award?
20 A. No.
21 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge
24 Judge Wald.
25 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Delic, I have a few questions and they're all
1 about the award.
2 When you submitted or passed on the proposal from Mr. Radic's
3 colleagues for the award, did you know that he had been a guard at Omarska
5 A. Well, I did not take note of what went on in Omarska camp, and I
6 assume that all the policemen were there to provide security for people
7 who were in the camp in Omarska, because that was the area covered by
8 their police station. So that I assumed that Mladjo Radic was also there
9 as a guard.
10 JUDGE WALD: Now, when a proposal would come from a police
11 station, or a department, rather, that was in your jurisdiction for you to
12 look at and pass on to the Banja Luka authorities, was any investigation
13 ever made, or did you just look at the fact that colleagues in the
14 policeman's station had proposed him and on that basis alone you might
15 pass it on? Did you do any investigation of your own to see whether this
16 was a person who indeed was good enough and merited the award or had
17 nothing in his background to suggest that he shouldn't get the award? Did
18 you just pass it through, or did you do some looking at the person?
19 A. Well, I checked it. Every employee in the police has his file, so
20 I went through the file. And there are also commissions which nominate
21 people for various awards. I also talked to his superior and the
22 commander of the police station in Prijedor and my assistant, and they all
23 had a favourable opinion of him. And on the basis of this, and they
24 agreed and I agreed and we all agreed that I could sign it and forward it
25 to Banja Luka as our nomination. And Mladjo wasn't the only one.
1 JUDGE WALD: Fine. If I understand you correctly, in the course
2 of the checking that you just did, you talked to Mr. Meakic; is that
3 right? Mr. Meakic was then the police chief or commander of the station.
4 Were you aware that he had also been the commander of the camp?
5 A. Not of the station.
6 JUDGE WALD: Well, of the Omarska -- at various times it was
7 departments and station. But whatever it was, you did talk to him and get
8 his approval, as it were, for passing it on. He thought it was a good
9 idea. You checked with him; is that right?
10 A. The commander of the station department, Meakic, talked to his
11 employees in the department, and they all agreed, after discussion, to
12 nominate Mladjo Radic. And then it reached me -- or, rather, their
13 commander, the police station commander in Prijedor who is responsible
14 for their department, and during this contact and the communication with
15 the commander of the police station in Prijedor, we took over the
16 documentation, the files, went through the files and saw that there were
17 no adverse opinions about Mladjo Radic. And then we decided to forward
18 that nomination to Banja Luka.
19 JUDGE WALD: So, in short, at some point, Mr. Meakic's opinion was
20 sought, too, as his commander.
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Do you happen to remember the names of any of
23 the colleague policemen who initiated or supported or whose names were on
24 the proposal for Mr. Radic to get the award?
25 A. No.
1 JUDGE WALD: You don't remember the names of any of the people who
2 actually --
3 A. No. It was not in writing. The proposal was not in writing.
4 JUDGE WALD: Well, what was it? Maybe you'll explain it. How did
5 it come to you if it didn't come in writing?
6 A. The document in writing was brought by the commander of the
7 station's department Meakic, and they discussed in their department about
8 whom to nominate.
9 JUDGE WALD: So Meakic came to you and orally told you about the
10 colleagues or the policemen supporting Mr. Radic for this award, right?
11 That's where you got your information from was Mr. Meakic; is that what I
13 A. During the meetings which were held on Mondays, I informed
14 commanders of stations that they should nominate from their departments
15 and stations a certain number of people for awards, for people who had
16 successfully worked for 10 or 20 years. Mladjo Radic had already had 20
17 years' seniority, and his nomination was discussed in his police
18 department in Omarska, and they decided that they could, indeed, nominate
20 I went along with this, and in agreement with the police station
21 in Prijedor, we also considered those nominations and nominations from
22 other departments and other stations.
23 JUDGE WALD: All right. My last question: Did you ever see
24 the -- was the award that was --
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me for interrupting you,
1 but I see Ms. Susan Somers on her feet.
2 JUDGE WALD: Go ahead.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Somers, please.
4 MS. SOMERS: I apologise for this interruption, but I have to
5 state, in the interests of justice for the Court, the Court is now
6 questioning on a document that I wanted very much to try to get before the
7 Court, even if not admitted, at least identified --
8 JUDGE WALD: I think I understand. I think my own memory suggests
9 to me that in prior testimony before this Court, the subject came up. I
10 would like to just continue with my question as if you hadn't even gotten
12 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My question for you was: Did you ever see the
14 piece of paper that stated the award that finally went to Mr. Radic? In
15 other words, did you ever see the award, the document, the award document
16 that went to Mr. Radic? Did that ever come to your attention? Whatever
17 they presented him at the time they gave him the 50 Deutschemarks, to your
18 knowledge, did they also present him -- you usually get a document which
19 says you've gotten this award for being so good, et cetera. Did you ever
20 see any document that was his final award?
21 A. Those documents were delivered to the police on the police day, on
22 the 21st of November, and they were handed to them personally by the
23 police commander.
24 JUDGE WALD: Right, fine. Did you ever see the document that was
25 handed to Mr. Radic?
1 A. I did not see the document.
2 JUDGE WALD: So you don't know what it said on the document as to
3 why he was getting the award.
4 A. We had received a cable from the Minister, from the chief of the
5 centre in Banja Luka. We received a dispatch which said that the
6 nominations are agreed upon and that they would be getting 50 German
7 marks. And there was a list of names in this dispatch, the list of names
8 of people, of men, who had been awarded, the list of persons.
9 JUDGE WALD: But you didn't see the actual award certificate. You
10 did not see the actual award certificate that Mr. Radic received; is that
11 right? You don't know what it said on it.
12 A. No.
13 JUDGE WALD: All right. My last question, then. In the material
14 that you forwarded to the officials in Banja Luka with the proposal for
15 Mr. Radic to receive the awards, there were papers, you told us,
16 that you were forwarded to the Banja Luka authorities who were going to
17 make the final decision; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE WALD: In those papers that you forwarded, was there any
20 reference to Mr. Radic's service in the Omarska camp as opposed to his
21 service in the Omarska Police Station? Any reference at all in those
22 papers that you remember and that you forwarded to the Banja Luka
24 A. As far as I can remember, I think it said for his successful work
25 over the past 20 years, that is, between 1976 and 1993, and his
1 participation in providing security for persons and property, and that
2 would cover the Omarska camp because he took part in the guarding of the
3 camp. And I believe he did it very successfully, at least on the basis of
4 what I knew. I do not -- I think he performed his job properly,
5 diligently, as a true professional policeman. I think he discharged all
6 the jobs that were assigned him.
7 JUDGE WALD: Let me just undergird [sic] this last question, and
8 it's just a yes or no question. In your memory, do you remember, in those
9 papers that were forwarded to Banja Luka, any specific, specific
10 reference to his service in the Omarska camp?
11 A. I don't remember. I mean, I guess that the text also included the
12 security and work in Omarska. I think it said for the successful work in
13 providing security for persons and property and the camp in Omarska.
14 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge
17 Mr. Delic, I have a simple question. You mentioned that there
18 were simply ordinary policemen. Other people also spoke about ordinary
19 policemen, policemen on the beat. What does that mean?
20 A. Well, an ordinary policemen is a policemen who performs his tasks
21 and assignments on the ground and is responsible for that; that is, he is
22 in charge of gathering information relative to the security of persons, to
23 protect property and persons, but does not have any other responsibility
24 except to report to his superior about all that he learns on the ground;
25 that is, he performs the simplest, the most ordinary, the commonest
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But the expression "ordinary,"
3 "common policeman," is there a difference between an ordinary and a common
5 A. Well, we're all responsible policemen. We're all responsible
6 policemen. If we perform our jobs responsibly, if we are covering the
7 ground, then an ordinary policeman must report about that, must submit his
8 accounts. Everybody has to do that. But he is not the superior. He
9 cannot take any decisions without his superiors.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question. This wording,
11 ordinary policeman, common policeman, do you find it in the rules? Is
12 that an officer, a law enforcement officer? What kind of officer is that?
13 Is it in the rules?
14 A. Well, no, you won't find the word "ordinary" or "common"; you will
15 find the word "policeman." But by this we mean because if there is a
16 policeman with specific responsibilities and a policeman who can be a
17 superior and a policeman who is not a superior. A common policeman is not
18 an officer. He cannot issue an order; that is, he may order citizens to
19 remove something or whatever, but he cannot issue orders to other
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right. If I understand you
22 well, this word "ordinary policeman," that is not an official term, and
23 the police use this word in order to make a distinction between different
24 levels of responsibility within the police force itself; is that it?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right. Very well, very well.
2 Thank you very much.
3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, excuse me, Mr. Simic, I
5 believe that Judge Riad has another question, but we shall then adjourn.
6 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Delic, in your answer to my colleague Judge Wald,
7 you mentioned that the award also included the successful work in
8 Omarska. First, did other people working in Omarska receive an award to
9 your knowledge, or was Mr. Radic the only one who got an award?
10 A. No, Radic was not awarded for Omarska, let us make that quite
11 clear. Radic was awarded for 20 years for successful work, between 1972
12 and 1993, and that was the first time that we marked the police day, the
13 21st of November. He was the man with the longer service in the police
14 work there, and therefore he was awarded.
15 JUDGE RIAD: I just wanted to know what you meant by successful
16 work in Omarska. What did you mean by successful work in Omarska, as a
17 concentration [Realtime transcript read in error "camp"] camp?
18 A. I was not in Omarska at the time, and I was not a superior there
19 at the time, but I assumed that all the policemen from the Omarska
20 department took part in the security duties in Omarska, the protection of
21 people. And from what I know, they did it all very correctly and
23 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Delic --
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, excuse me, what is it that
3 you want in the first place? What is it that you want? Why are you on
4 your feet?
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] His Honour, Judge Riad, asked the
6 witness a question related to the consequences about the dismissal of the
7 police at the time, and I wanted to ask a question of the witness in this
9 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. There is just a word missing in the
10 transcript. I asked, "What did you mean by successful work in Omarska as
11 a concentration camp," and they didn't write the word "concentration." I
12 want it to be added.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] However, I think there were
14 several interruptions, and I believe that some discipline in our work
15 would be in order.
16 Mr. Simic was speaking. So, Mr. Simic, you will complete what you
17 had to say. I understood that there was a question derived from
18 Judge Riad's question, but we have to finish, but do ask your question.
19 Further cross-examination by Mr. K. Simic:
20 Q. Mr. Delic, under the conditions of a war, had a policeman under
21 any rank, if he was militarily able, could the police submit his
22 resignation, or could he have been thrown out of the police? What could
23 have happened to him?
24 A. Well, it is more than likely that he would have been sent to the
25 front line, and criminal charges would have been filed against such
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, did you also want to
3 ask an additional question?
4 MS. SOMERS: It would have gone back, Your Honour, to a question
5 raised by Her Honour Judge Wald, if I'm permitted. If not -- no. Thank
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. Ms. Somers, I was asking
8 you if you have any question that derives from Mr. Simic's question. Is
9 that how I understand it, that you do not have a question that derives
10 from Mr. Simic's question?
11 MS. SOMERS: I do not.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
13 Mr. Fila.
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Ms. Somers -- we've
15 agreed with Ms. Somers not to use the word "concentration camp" because
16 the order issued when the Omarska camp was set up was the investigation
17 camp, and I do not know how Judge Riad can insist that it was a
18 concentration camp. I believe that you will decide on this in your
19 judgement. But at any rate, this is untimely to do that.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right, Mr. Fila. We are not
21 deciding now yes or no. That is what you said, and the transcript speaks
22 for itself.
23 Ms. Somers, what was your question which derived from the Judge's
24 question? I believe you said that you might have a question which would
25 be a follow-up on a question asked by Judge Wald.
1 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, it would require identifying a document
2 and just making sure that the particular theme of conversation that was
3 the subject of Judge Wald's questions is the same document I'm looking
4 to. Just document identification.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you have the document?
6 MS. SOMERS: I do.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Then perhaps the usher could
8 show it to us, and Judge Wald could see the document.
9 MS. SOMERS: This document has been provided to the Defence much
10 earlier, and this --
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, will you please ...
12 MS. SOMERS: Your Honours, if the Defence does wish an extra copy
13 for now, there is no problem. We have ...
14 Mr. Usher, if I may ask you to distribute -- we have extra copies
15 for the Defence, please. Thank you.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, I ask you only to
17 show the document to Judge Wald. This is not now the time to distribute
18 the document to other parties.
19 MS. SOMERS: I beg your pardon, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We always want to benefit from
21 something, something that was not said that it will be done. So
22 therefore --
23 MS. SOMERS: My apologies, Your Honour. My fault entirely.
24 JUDGE WALD: Let me just clarify. I simply asked the witness
25 questions about what he remembered was in the document, which he answered
1 on the spot. True, many months ago, we had some testimony about a
2 document like this, but I did not have it in front of me so I was not
3 referring to a specific document that I could identify at the time. I was
4 asking him cold a question about what was in the document, which he
5 answered. So I don't think it's particularly relevant to identify a
6 particular document.
7 MS. SOMERS: All right. Then I should -- that's fine. My
8 question is --
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right, Ms. Somers, we shall now
10 return the document, and that will be the end of it.
11 MS. SOMERS: I'll leave it for later. I'll just hang onto it.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We shall -- this
13 testimony is now over. Mr. Delic, we have no further questions for you.
14 Thank you very much for coming here. I wish you a happy return to your
15 home and your place of work. Thank you. The usher will help you.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We shall now adjourn
18 for 50 minutes. I believe we all need a break. Fifty minutes.
19 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.10 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 2.01 p.m.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
22 Mr. Fila.
23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before I call the next
24 witness, allow me to make a point. A small problem has arisen linked to
25 the translation and differences in languages. The interpreters have drawn
1 my attention to this, and I think that the Prosecution has been informed,
2 as have Your Honours.
3 At one point, I asked the previous witness, Mr. Delic, whether
4 there was razvodnik straze or guard shift leader in the police. It is a
5 military term. It is a person who takes the guards from one position to
6 another. That applies to the military. And the question was whether such
7 a position existed in the police. His answer was no. However, in the
8 English transcript, his answer appeared to be that there were no shift
9 leaders in the police, which is not my question nor was it his answer.
10 So as not to call in question the credibility of the witness, and
11 as far as I know in a similar case, I think it was the Celebici trial, the
12 tape was reviewed, the audiotape, and then it was established what exactly
13 was asked and what the exact answer was. So I should like to appeal to
14 you that something similar be done in this case; otherwise, we have three
15 different answers. Because, as you know, I'm listening to the French
16 interpretation, and there the interpretation was different again. So
17 thank you.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.
19 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, that particular term that was used in
20 B/C/S has been the subject of discussion with the head of the -- the
21 English B/C/S translation services, Mrs. Tina Zoric, and in fact the
22 determination by Translation Services is that in the context of
23 discussions involving Radic, because that's where it came up, that the
24 correct translation is "shift leader." The use of military terms have
25 been, for one reason or another, interjected into the vocabulary, but they
1 have made their own philological, linguistic determination that that is
2 correct. And if the Chamber would wish to have Mrs. Zoric address it
3 about that, I can only relate what has already come up because we have
4 discussed this in connection with another document. I informed the
5 individual from Translation Services who approached me and asked her also
6 to confirm this with Mrs. Zoric, and I'm sure Mrs. Zoric would be happy to
7 explain it to the Chamber.
8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Personally, I think that all we need to
9 do is for the interpreters to check the audiotape, they will hear the
10 question I put to the witness - I used the words "razvodnik straze" - and
11 that will be heard on the audiotape. My question was razvodnik straze,
12 it was not shift leader. It is not shift leader as Ms. Susan Somers is
13 saying. That is not the same thing. Though in Serbian we have one term
14 called razvodnik straze, and the other term which is sef smene. So the
15 only way to resolve the issues is for the interpreters to listen to the
16 tape and report to us about what they heard tomorrow.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Regarding this suggestion of
18 Mr. Fila's, what is your reaction, Ms. Susan Somers?
19 MS. SOMERS: My reaction, Your Honour, is that it will make no
20 difference if they hear "razvodnik straze," because that is exactly what
21 Mrs. Zoric heard and her indication to the OTP is that that means shift
22 leader. So even if it's played back -- I think it would be helpful to
23 just know that that, in fact, was the term used. The ultimate issue would
24 be for someone whose confidence would exceed certainly mine or Mr. Fila's
25 in matters of language, of origin, and translation to address the Chamber
1 if it becomes an issue.
2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, allow me to explain.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We have to end this discussion,
4 Mr. Fila. Otherwise, we'll go on endlessly.
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It is not a question of language. We
6 have two different terms here. There is a term in the military
7 called "razvodnik straze," and that position does not exist in the police.
8 These are two different concepts. It's not a question of translation.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Basically I agree with your
10 suggestion. Linguistic knowledge of everyone of the B/C/S language is
11 certainly better than mine. So I think we should hear the interpretation
12 here, and we can also ask the Translation Service to write us a memo which
13 can then be submitted to the parties for discussion. I think that is the
14 only way of overcoming this problem. And the Chamber will be able to look
15 at this memo, because I personally, and I speak in my own name, I don't
16 know whether my colleagues wish to make any comments for their part, I
17 would not like to be left with any doubt in my mind. So the procedure
18 that I would suggest would be, at a certain point this afternoon, that we
19 hear the tape, and if there is a problem, we have to go back to the floor,
20 to the original. A translation is a translation. I'm looking at the
21 transcript all the time, and I often see that there is lack of total
22 correspondence to what I have said. So first of all we have to hear the
23 original. Then the second step is to take the transcript and submit it to
24 the Translation Service for their opinion. Then the third step would be
25 to have a memo written by the Translation Service and submitted to the
1 parties for discussion. And then the Chamber will have all that in front
2 of it as guidance.
3 Do you agree with that, or is there anyone who disagrees? I see
4 Mr. Simic.
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid that we're
6 simplifying the problem. We're talking about a linguistic issue here, as
7 Mr. Fila just said. But the substance of Mr. Fila's objection, which I
8 share because this is a general point, that the task, that the work post
9 of a guard shift leader or razvodnik straze is entirely different from
10 the work duties of a shift leader in the police. Therefore, even if we
11 resolve the problem linguistically, we have to find out what each of these
12 concepts implies. And then perhaps in the rebuttal a party could bring a
13 witness who could clarify the point.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic, once
15 again I understand your concern, and I think you have a good point. But
16 we are now at the linguistic level. The other substantive part of the
17 problem is up to you to show through evidence. But now what we can do is
18 this, and then the parties will submit their evidence to show this or
19 that, then afterwards we will have the submissions from the record. But
20 what we have now is doubt regarding linguistics. As for the contents of
21 that word, that concept, that's another matter.
22 To use linguistics, as you know perhaps better than me, makes a
23 distinction between connotation and denotation. We know that there are
24 words and there is the meaning of words. Now we are at the level of words
25 which have a certain content, a certain meaning, a connotation. This is
1 something that you raised. Mr. Fila raised the linguistic aspect and you
2 are raising the substantive aspect, and these are two different matters.
3 I see Ms. Susan Somers on her feet. Do you have anything to
5 MS. SOMERS: The Chambers simply asked if the parties were in
6 accord. The Prosecution fully respects and supports the suggestion and I
7 just wanted to let you know that it was, in fact, Mrs. Zoric who was the
8 person we addressed it to.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Personally, I have a feeling
10 that my colleagues agree, though they haven't expressed themselves, so
11 that will be the decision of the Chamber. At some point in the afternoon,
12 we will listen to the tape. We have to identify the place on the tape
13 because we will have to listen again to the original. So we have to know
14 where it is on the tape in the testimony of Mr. Delic, who raised this
15 question, that is, whether there were guard leaders. Is that right,
16 Mr. Fila?
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But the razvodnik
18 straze and sef smene are two different concepts. The razvodnik straze
19 exists in the military and it does not exist in the police. A shift
20 leader exists in the police but not in the military, not in the army.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm now giving direct
22 instructions to the Registry to be able to find in the transcript this
23 particular passage so that we can listen to it again.
24 Mr. Fila, who is the next witness?
25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It is Bosiljka Radic. Could the usher
1 bring her in, please.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Radic. Can
4 you hear me?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. Good afternoon.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please read the solemn
7 declaration given to you by the usher, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: BOSILJKA RADIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may take a seat.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please approach the
15 microphones. I'm going to ask the usher to lower them a little. For the
16 moment, you will be answering questions put to you by Mr. Fila.
17 Mr. Fila, your witness.
18 Examined by Mr. Fila:
19 Q. Mrs. Radic, could you tell us when you were born and where?
20 A. I was born on the 25th of February, 1957, in Ljeskari, near
22 Q. Where are you living now?
23 A. I'm living in Prijedor.
24 Q. What is Mladjo Radic to you?
25 A. He's my husband.
1 Q. How long have you been married?
2 A. We have been married since 1974.
3 Q. How many children do you have?
4 A. We have three sons.
5 Q. Who were born when?
6 A. The oldest, on the 25th of June, 1975; the second, on the 30th of
7 December, 1978; and the third and youngest, on the 27th of July, 1986.
8 Q. Could you tell us a few words about relationships between you and
9 your husband and your family members?
10 A. All I can say is that we never had any problems. We lived for
11 ourselves and our children, and we got on very well as a family.
12 Q. Did you have amongst your friends people of different religions
13 and ethnicity?
14 A. Yes. We always had people of different ethnicities. We never
15 made any distinctions among them; that applies to myself and my husband.
16 We even had kums who were Muslims.
17 Q. Did you have a Muslim for a kum?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Does the family name Denic mean anything to you?
20 A. Yes. They were our kums. And we really got on extremely well
21 together, we exchanged visits, and to this day we are in touch with that
22 family. And we assisted them during the war in every way possible.
23 Q. What ethnicity are they?
24 A. They are Muslims or Bosniaks, whatever you prefer.
25 Q. Do you see that lady nowadays too?
1 A. Yes, of course. Senada Denic, she's my kuma. We met here for the
2 first time last year in The Hague. We had a conversation. She thanked me
3 for certain things that we did for them, both me and my husband, and we
4 got on very well.
5 Q. Does she come to visit you?
6 A. Yes. Whenever she comes to Bosnia, she's my guest in Prijedor.
7 Q. Did she sometimes talk to your husband when she visited?
8 A. Yes. Once or twice he happened to call on the telephone and she
9 wanted to talk to him, and they exchanged a few words. And she even told
10 me that when he came here, she wanted to visit him but she was not allowed
11 to do that.
12 Q. Did Mladjo Radic help her and her child in an incident?
13 A. Yes, he helped her a great deal, because on one occasion the
14 children were playing on the scaffolds of a building and the child fell
15 from a balcony. The military ambulance was there and was driving him to
16 the hospital. The car, the vehicle broke down, and somebody, Nedjo Delic,
17 who had a cafe there called up the police station and informed my
18 husband, because our kuma asked him to find Mladjo Radic. And then he
19 called up the emergency service, as he couldn't go there personally, and
20 they put the child up in the hospital. Then he talked to a doctor in
21 Banja Luka called Predrag Rosic to assist the child as best they could.
22 And she's grateful to me for this.
23 And the next day again my husband went there to give her some food
24 and money, because the daughter called me up and told me, "My mother has
25 nothing on her," and he received his salary that day. He took all that
1 money - I don't remember exactly how much it was - a parcel of food. He
2 couldn't stay there long. He just gave her these things at the bus
3 station and returned home.
4 Q. Do you know Sadiha Cesic?
5 A. Yes, I do, very well.
6 Q. And her son?
7 A. Yes. We used to work together in the mine. I worked in the
8 kitchen and he worked at the petrol station.
9 Q. Did she, on one occasion, call you?
10 A. Yes. A few days later, she called me up and asked for my husband,
11 as she had heard that he was working there and she wanted to get in touch
12 with him to send something for her brothers. However, a couple of days
13 later, she came and they went there to visit her brothers, and she
14 regularly took them food.
15 Q. Were her brothers detained in the investigations centre in
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. One or several brothers?
19 A. One or two. I'm not quite sure. I just remembered her saying, "I
20 have brothers there," or a brother.
21 Q. Thank you very much. Let me now draw your attention to something
22 else. During your lifetime, did you have any employment in the Omarska
24 A. I worked in the canteen at the Separacija, where the food was
25 prepared, so that I never went to the place where the camp was. I just
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 sent cooked food there.
2 Q. I wanted to ask you something else. When did you start working
3 there, before the camp was established?
4 A. In 1985.
5 Q. At that same Separacija, in the same kitchen?
6 A. Yes. And when the conflicts broke out, I had work obligation and
7 I had to work.
8 Q. When that investigations centre was closed, did you remain working
10 A. Yes. For a certain time I did.
11 Q. Throughout those three different periods, that is, before the
12 investigations centre was formed, during its existence, and after it was
13 disbanded, which water did you use in the Separacija, in the kitchen, for
14 drinking and for food preparation?
15 A. There was only one kind of water and we all used that water.
16 There was only one type of water through the water supply system,
17 and that's the only water that we all used for drinking and for cooking.
18 Q. So you used that same water before the existence of the
19 investigations centre, during its existence, and after it ceased to
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Let me now ask you something about the food preparation while the
23 investigations centre was operational.
24 A. At first it was prepared in vast quantities and on a regular
25 basis. There was one meal at first, and at first a quarter of a loaf of
1 bread for everyone.
2 Q. What do you mean "at the beginning"?
3 A. Because our food supplies were better at the beginning. Later on
4 there were shortages. But we did our best, what we could. There was a
5 shortage of spices, but in any event it was cooked. The meal was a cooked
7 Q. What you prepared in the kitchen, who was it intended for?
8 A. For the army, for the investigations centre, and for the
9 investigators and the security.
10 Q. Which groups received the same food and which groups special
12 A. It was the same food for the army, for the military, and for the
13 investigations centre, except for the interrogators. They had slightly
14 better meals. For them, it was specially prepared. As for security
15 people, they usually had dry lunch packets in the evening, as we call
16 them, sandwiches.
17 Q. And during the daytime, did the security personnel eat the same
18 food as the detainees?
19 A. I think so, because there was no other food available. In those
20 conditions, it was simply not possible to make distinctions.
21 Q. To summarise this, you participated in the preparation of the food
22 and you know that it was taken for the army and for the investigations
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you ever go with that food there to see it being distributed?
1 A. No, we never went, because we had to work on the food preparation
2 because these were large quantities. But there were some women there who
3 distributed the food and then they just sent us back the empty dishes that
4 we had to wash, so that we were working all day long.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The containers rather than dishes.
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
7 Q. So you cannot tell us how many detainees there were, nor whether
8 the food was sufficient for all of them.
9 A. No, I can't. It was not something that I had insight into.
10 Q. At some period of time while you were working in that kitchen, and
11 during the existence of the investigations centre, did you see any women
12 who were detained there and who came to where you were?
13 A. Yes. At the very beginning, a group of women came to our canteen
14 or dining room. We didn't even know who they were. We sat together. Who
15 brought them there, we didn't know. They were alone. And when we'd
16 finished our work and washed up everything, we sat down and had coffee
17 together. We talked. So we got on quite well. I don't know their
18 names. I know that among them some women like Jadranka Cigelj, they
19 called her Koka, I didn't know it was Jadranka, but later on I knew her by
20 her nickname. There was Koka, [redacted]
22 them only had the best to say about my husband. And when we asked her how
23 they were, they said, "We have particular support when Mladjo Radic is on
24 duty," and we smiled, laughed. And she said, "Why are you laughing?" and
25 I said, "Well, that is my husband." And she said, "He is a really good
1 man who is always ready to help and bring things if we ask him to."
2 Q. Did you help them with food?
3 A. Of course. We had coffee together; we talked. They begged us to
4 help them because they were bored. They wanted to work for us and we said
5 we couldn't do that. But we could sit down, have some coffee, and
6 talk. And when they left, each one of them had somebody there, a brother
7 or a husband, and "could you give us some food," and we said yes and we'd
8 give them some food that we had when they went back.
9 Q. Were there any people from Ljubija in the investigations centre?
10 A. You mean who used to work there?
11 Q. No, no, people who lived in Ljubija and who were detained in
13 A. Yes, there were people from Ljubija, because they knew both me and
14 my husband. We had lived in Ljubija for 10 or 15 years. They all knew us
15 so they all addressed both him and me.
16 Q. You mean when you were at home or in the camp?
17 A. No, while we were in the camp. As I was working in the mine, they
18 knew me too. So they would send messages to me via my husband to send
19 some food when I could. When I was sending food for the security staff,
20 then I would add, if I could, some extra food. I remember there was
21 somebody, [redacted], who sent a letter to me and my superior to send some
22 food, and we did. I sent most food to the brother of my kuma. She called
23 me once. She said, "You know my brother is there. He has kidney problems
24 from his childhood. He needs some fatty foods, like lard or bacon." And
25 whenever I had some I would send it to him.
1 Q. What was his name?
2 A. Midhat Fazlic.
3 Q. Briefly, did you and Mladjo Radic assist people from Ljubija?
4 A. Yes, we did.
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Any other Defence counsel who
7 wish to put questions to this witness? I see not.
8 Then the Prosecutor, Ms. Susan Somers.
9 Mrs. Radic, you are now going to be answering questions put to you
10 by the Prosecutor, Ms. Somers.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
12 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:
13 Q. Mrs. Radic, the entire duration of your marriage to Mladjo Radic,
14 has he been a police officer?
15 A. Yes, he was a policeman the whole time.
16 Q. When Omarska became an investigations centre, you were working in
17 that centre, correct, from the very beginning of its being as an
18 investigations centre? You continued your previous service there and just
19 switched over to working in the investigations centre; is that -- is our
20 understanding correct?
21 A. Yes. I worked there before, and when the investigations centre
22 was set up, I continued working there. And of course I stayed on
23 afterwards as well. And then the company was disbanded and we all stopped
24 working later on.
25 Q. Now, your husband, Mladjo Radic, also was at that centre the whole
1 time you were there. In other words, you worked at Omarska co-extensively
2 with your husband's service there as well; right? Is that a clear enough
3 question to you?
4 A. Yes, the question is clear. But I worked at the Separacija and he
5 worked at the investigations centre, 3 kilometres away, so we weren't
6 actually together.
7 Q. Did you come to work together?
8 A. Well, no, we couldn't work together.
9 Q. Did you work the same shifts? For example, daytime, night-time.
10 A. No, we couldn't, because I went to work at 4.00 a.m. or 3.00 a.m.
11 sometimes so that we could get through all the work and prepare all the
12 food, whereas his working hours were from 7.00 in the morning. So we
13 didn't go to work together.
14 Q. You have spoken of your kuma, Mrs. Denic.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Are you aware that your husband Ibrahim, also I assume your kum,
17 has not been seen since he was taken to the Omarska Investigations Centre,
18 sometime in late May 1992? Are you aware of that fact?
19 A. I am aware of the fact that he hasn't been seen, and we asked her
20 about it and she told me that he never reached Omarska. My husband asked
21 around about him because quite normally we were interested in knowing
22 where he was and what had happened to him, and we asked around. But
23 nobody could tell us that he actually arrived in Omarska because they went
24 to work there three or four days later, they weren't there straight away.
25 And he asked her brother whether the kum was there so that I could talk to
1 him, and he said he hadn't seen him there at all.
2 Q. Midhat, her brother, Midhat --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- did not tell you that her husband was in Omarska?
5 A. No. He didn't say. He said he wasn't down there. For the time,
6 my husband hadn't arrived there. He didn't know and he didn't find him
7 there. But we asked around for a long time but could learn nothing about
8 him. And then he asked me via my kuma to send him food, and I did
9 whenever I could.
10 Q. What efforts did your husband make to help find Ibrahim Denic, the
11 kum to your family? Please give us detailed descriptions of the efforts.
12 A. Well, he inquired. He asked everybody, everybody he met. First
13 of all, he asked her brother. He couldn't tell him anything. And then
14 there were some other relations and they couldn't tell him anything either
15 as to his whereabouts. And he couldn't undertake -- take any other steps
16 to find out where he was. But we would always contact her and she said,
17 "I know that he was in Keraterm the last time I heard, but after that I
18 don't know anything." She even said that she had asked people down there
19 and they had told her that he had never reached Omarska.
20 Q. Tell us, please, when your husband was indicted by this Tribunal,
21 did you learn of the charges that were laid against him, the nature of the
23 A. Whether I knew about the indictment? Well, I didn't know about
24 the indictment. Even when he came here and was here for five months, I
25 don't think he even had an indictment. Because five months later I came
1 to visit him here and I asked him, "Mladjo, what's happening?" and he
2 said, "I don't know. I haven't got the indictment yet." I don't think
3 you even knew about his indictment. How come you're asking about that?
4 Of course I heard from the media. I happened to read in a
5 newspaper called Arena where my husband was mentioned, but it was my
6 husband's picture and somebody else's name under the photograph, and I
7 thought that this must be a mix-up because that's not the man. And I did
8 not know about the indictment. Had you sent the indictment, he would have
9 given himself up to the Tribunal and come to defend his innocence before
10 this Tribunal.
11 Q. During the period in which you were working and you were working
12 in Omarska, were you living under the same roof?
13 A. Yes, of course we were. Always, we've always lived under the same
15 Q. As a married couple, did you have sexual relations during that
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The women who were at Omarska, are you able to tell us, please,
19 how they looked? Can you describe whether or not they looked fresh,
20 well-dressed, well-nourished? What was your impression, please, of the
21 women detainees at Omarska?
22 A. Well, I saw them only two or three times. They sort of looked
23 normal. They had facilities to wash. They might have had one change of
24 clothing but they could wash that clothing, and they would wear clean
25 clothing. And all of the women had someone to bring them in more
1 clothing, whether from Omarska or Prijedor. And one of my colleagues
2 would come to my kitchen and ask whether I could send some clothing for
3 all the women there. Each one would come to ask me for somebody. For
4 example, there was a Mara Aleksic there that distributed the food, and
5 she came to the kitchen bringing something for her husband. I said that I
6 didn't know how I could send that off but I could put it with the food and
7 send it to this person Tesma. So they did have clothing that came from
8 their own homes. People had sent clothing to them through somebody.
9 Q. Were they very well washed? Their persons, not their clothes.
10 Did they smell bad? Did they smell good?
11 A. Well, they used to come by at first and they looked fine. Now,
12 what happened later on, I don't know. They would even ask for makeup.
13 They wanted -- they asked us for makeup, and they had a way to wash
14 themselves and take baths.
15 Q. Mrs. Radic, could you, please, give us the names of all the
16 Muslims whom you knew were detained in the Omarska camp? Whom you knew
17 from personal experience having lived in that region for your whole life.
18 Please give names.
19 A. Well, I know almost half of Ljubija and others, and those people
20 who called me. I mentioned [redacted] among them; that is to say, that
21 she wasn't there but her relatives were. Then my colleagues from work,
22 Atlija Ivica, he drove a refrigerator truck. We helped him too. Then
25 Q. Mrs. Radic --
1 A. But a lot of people, many, many, people, if you want me to name
3 Q. Then there were a number of people of Muslim ethnicity whom you
4 knew your whole life who were in Omarska camp; would that be a fair
5 statement? Including the brother of your kum -- kuma, excuse me.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What was your understanding of your husband's role at Omarska
8 camp, since you went to work every day there and he did too? What was
9 your understanding of his duties there?
10 A. He was doing the job of a policeman/guard. He had to provide
11 security, security, and see that the people who were there were secure.
12 Nothing else.
13 Q. What does that mean to you, "security"? If you can just give us a
14 very brief description of your understanding of that.
15 A. Well, I understand it in the following way: Those people there
16 had to be safe so that a group from outside couldn't come in and do them
17 harm, do those people harm. They had to prevent anything like that from
19 Q. What was your understanding of why people were in Omarska as
21 A. Well, I don't know that. That was politics, when they were taken
22 into custody, and I don't really know anything about that.
23 MS. SOMERS: I would like to ask the usher to distribute a
24 document. I want to ask a quick question about something, please, from a
25 document. It's the same one from this morning and I have a focused
1 question on it, the one I had mentioned. I think counsel have it but the
2 Chamber may wish to have it back, please. For identification, it should
3 be marked as Prosecution's 3/231. So the registrar knows, some have been
4 premarked, this among them, so they may not be in sequence, but just so
5 it's clear.
6 If the usher would be kind enough to please put the document on
7 the ELMO.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.
9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a document
10 which -- the whole day today Ms. Somers has, without success, tried to
11 introduce somewhere. It was the document that was shown with Mr. Delic
12 and was not accepted. This document has nothing to do with this witness.
13 She did not write it, she did not see it, nor did she decide upon it.
14 Now, I know that one can be persistent, but this has surpassed all
15 limits. It is the document that you saw with Witness Delic and you did
16 not accept it, and now we are seeing it -- it has risen up again, and I
17 would like to object, because this document has nothing to do with this
18 lady here. She is a cook in the Separacija. This document is allegedly a
19 document signed by Mr. Delic, who was the previous witness. And there has
20 been -- there have been persistent attempts at bringing the document up.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, please do not keep
22 repeating yourself. Let us clear one matter up. The Judges refused
23 because Ms. Susan Somers attempted to have the document shown after her
24 time was up.
25 Ms. Susan Somers, your reply.
1 MS. SOMERS: Yes, of course, this document has relevance to a
2 number of witnesses who are here to testify on behalf of the accused
3 Radic, and in particular, this witness, who is the wife of Radic, who went
4 to work at the same camp every day for the same period of time as Radic
5 and who had intimate knowledge of what Radic may or may not have said
6 about his functions, is a very appropriate witness to comment on the award
7 given for the work done by Radic. It has nothing to do with who signed
8 it. It has to do with the essence of the award and the essence of why he
9 was given this award, Your Honour. The relevance, I think, is very
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, this document
12 has already been introduced into evidence. It has a number, 3/231. You
13 can go ahead and ask the witness the question without the document. Where
14 is the problem? Do you wish to ask a question with respect -- if you wish
15 to ask a question with respect to that, go ahead and ask it, but proceed
16 as you see fit. Anyway, the document has already been introduced,
18 MS. SOMERS: I beg your pardon. I don't mean to correct the
19 Chamber. I believe that this is the first time we've had it marked for
20 identification. I believe it has not been admitted. I apologise if
21 there's any confusion on the status, but it is just marked, it is not
22 admitted yet.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you. I thought that
24 it was marked for identification and that that was the number the document
25 already had. So is the number the mark for identification? What does
1 P3/231 denote, the mark for identification?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, it's marked for identification.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, then. Thank you
4 anyway for drawing my attention to that.
5 MS. SOMERS: No problem, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mrs. Radic, I want to ask you about the award your husband was
7 given of which there has been mention. You are aware that he was given an
8 award for his extraordinary service, and he got some Deutschemarks. I
9 believe the amount was 50. Is that what your understanding was, that it
10 was 50? Mrs. Radic, was it 50 Deutschemarks that he was given?
11 A. Let me tell you, at that time, it was actually given out in
12 points, some 50 points, but it would be the equivalent of 50 Deutschemark
13 value. But for his many years of service, and people are always set out
14 for awards not linked to Omarska or anything, so they normally selected
15 him as being one of them. And during a ceremony, that is what he
16 received. At that time, we were receiving no cash at all. We were
17 receiving no remuneration and we had nothing to feed our three children
18 with. So that was a good thing to come into the house. So I don't know
19 how you're going to understand this, but it's for his many years of
20 service and not participation in Omarska.
21 Q. Thank you very much for clarifying that, Mrs. Radic. The question
22 I have about this award that is the subject of this particular document of
23 8 November 1993, signed by Bogdan Delic, is the second to the last
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. It says: "He has selflessly laboured --"
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I see you're on your
4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, she ought to ask whether
5 the witness had seen the document, whether she knows who Delic is. You
6 can't just put a document before a witness just like that, without any
7 preliminary questions.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fila.
9 Ms. Susan Somers, that was the reason I asked you either to go
10 ahead and ask the question without the document, or if you wish to show
11 the document, then you have to ask the witness first whether she has ever
12 seen the document before. Please proceed.
13 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. I appreciate that. The witness, of
14 course, has indicated that she's familiar with the subject matter.
15 Q. But, in fact, are you aware that there was a commendation that was
16 authorised in writing for your husband, that it came from officials in the
17 Prijedor police structure so that he could have this award? Are you aware
18 of that?
19 A. Well, I didn't know anything about that before. But when the
20 ceremony took place, he came back and said, "Well, we've received a small
21 sort of award," bonus, something like that. But it wasn't actually
22 anything special. But I told you why and how it came about.
23 Q. Was this the only -- was that the only bonus that he had received
24 as a police officer in the Omarska service?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. Although you may not have seen it, may I just ask you, please,
2 about a comment that was made, where it says, in support of your husband
3 receiving this award, "He has selflessly laboured to uncover the deeds of
4 Muslim extremists at the Omarska Reception Centre where he has worked day
5 and night."
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.
7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if the woman has never
8 seen the document, and she says she hasn't seen it, how can she comment on
9 something she has never seen?
10 A. Well, yes, this is impossible, Your Honour.
11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] So please may we have the document
12 removed. It is upsetting and confusing the witness. If she says she has
13 not seen the document, then she can't talk about something she hasn't
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just one moment, Mr. Fila. You
16 will have the opportunity of asking additional questions. If necessary,
17 Ms. Susan Somers can ask the witness to read the document, or she can read
18 it and hear the comments. Afterwards, Mr. Fila, you can ask your
19 questions. But if you keep interrupting, that can also upset the
21 Ms. Susan Somers, please continue, and bear in mind the time.
22 MS. SOMERS: I am trying to, Judge. I'd like to get through this,
23 actually. Thank you very much.
24 Q. I'm sorry for the interruption, but let me just start quickly and
25 run through it with you. In support of the award, it says, "He has
1 selflessly laboured to uncover the deeds of Muslim extremists at the
2 Omarska Reception Centre, where he has worked day and night."
3 Tell me, please, the description of security that you understood
4 to be the function of your husband, did that include the notion of
5 uncovering the deeds of Muslim extremists? Is that what you understood to
6 be taking place at the Omarska camp?
7 A. No. This is something quite different which you wish to impose
8 here. He worked as a policeman on security jobs. He did not take into
9 custody anybody or take anybody away. He was just doing his job, on
10 duty. So what you want to say, that just does not stand. And as to the
11 battlefield, yes, everybody had to go to the battlefield. Nobody could
12 refuse orders to go to the battlefield. Even when he went to the
13 battlefield for three days, he preferred to go to the battlefield rather
14 than being there with the people he couldn't help, with his own people
15 whom he couldn't help. But all he had to do, his only job was to do guard
16 duty down there. And I don't agree with what is written here.
17 Q. Can you just tell me, though, is there anywhere written on this
18 piece of paper that you see a reference to guard duty or security?
19 A. Well, it says "policeman," "policeman of the police force," which
20 means that he worked as a policeman. What else would a policeman do down
21 there but be a guard with all the other guards? They were all equal. And
22 it never says here -- it doesn't say anywhere here -- it just says that he
23 was an experienced police officer. Nothing else.
24 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Mrs. Radic. I have no further questions.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, your questions?
2 Re-examined by Mr. Fila:
3 Q. As we've got the document, does it say that he was shift leader
5 A. Well, of course it doesn't, no. It just says recommendation for a
6 cash bonus.
7 Q. Does it say that he raped anyone anywhere?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Does it say that he beat anyone anywhere?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And does it say that he ordered somebody killed anywhere?
12 A. No, and he never did that. I don't know --
13 Q. Take it slowly, please, madam. Have you ever seen this document
14 before today?
15 A. No, never. This seems as if it's something --
16 Q. Do you happen to know that this is a document?
17 A. Well, I can see that it's some kind of document.
18 Q. Do you have anything to do with the contents of that document?
19 A. No, I have nothing, no.
20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fila.
23 Judge Riad has the floor.
24 Questioned by the Court:
25 JUDGE RIAD: Mrs. Radic, good afternoon.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 JUDGE RIAD: I just have some general questions. You were in the
3 Separacija, living 3 kilometres -- as I understood, staying 3 kilometres
4 away from the camp, from Omarska camp. But you had the chances of talking
5 to the women, Branka, Koka, Suada, and they would always tell you how much
6 they appreciated your husband's help, if I understood I rightly. You even
7 mentioned that he could protect them from people coming from outside to
8 harm them, one of his -- this was one of his jobs.
9 Do you have any concrete knowledge that he stopped people coming
10 from outside to attack? What made them trust him so much? Did they tell
11 you certain incidents?
12 A. Well, no, no, they didn't, and we never talked about that. They
13 simply always praised him, because they could go into his office and have
14 coffee when he was not there and nobody would bother them there. And had
15 he prevented somebody from entering, well, nobody came, at least not
16 during his shifts.
17 JUDGE RIAD: They would go to his office. So he had an office in
18 Omarska camp?
19 A. Yes, where the telephones were, perhaps radio communications
20 or something. But it was -- I think it was a glass booth or something
21 like that near to the place where he stood guard, and I believe you know
22 about that.
23 JUDGE RIAD: Did they speak of other guards in the same way? Did
24 they know all the other guards, or he was more or less outstanding among
25 these guards?
1 A. No, but they seemed to know him. They said that everybody was
2 nice to them, that everybody was good to them. No distinction. Whoever
3 they asked to bring them bread or something, they always did that, they
4 all helped them. But they knew Mladjo and so they turned to him.
5 On the first day when he started, there was Sada Curak from
6 Ljubija - she was a physician - and that first day when my husband came
7 home, he said, "She's got some stomach pain. Have you got any herbal
8 teas?" and I said yes and took all the herbal teas that I had at home and
9 gave them to her, because we knew her personally. She treated our
11 But all of them, down to the last one, they all spoke well of him
12 and only had but nice words for him.
13 JUDGE RIAD: You said that they spoke well of everyone. On the
14 same level, or was he praised more than the others?
15 A. Well, it depended. I don't know. Depending on who's doing the
16 shift. But they said that whoever happens to be on the shift was ready to
17 help them, and that women were, indeed, protected and received that help.
18 Who wouldn't help if you ask him for it? And if they turned to him
19 for help, then of course he helped them.
20 And all sorts of things that I sent from home -- I mean whenever
21 they wrote something, not only to me. But somebody knew a neighbour,
22 Salih Hadzihanovic knew a neighbour, and since they lived in the same
23 building, so she would write, "Can you please send me something?" And she
24 made this parcel and took it there. Because he knew lots of people, that
25 is why all of this went through him. And I think that there isn't a man
1 in Omarska who did not send something down there.
2 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge
5 Judge Wald.
6 JUDGE WALD: Mrs. Radic, I just want to ask you about one thing
7 also in the award document, but nothing to do with the Muslims in the
9 It says some very nice things about your husband, and one of them
10 is that, "Since the very beginning of combat activities, Mladjo has been
11 actively involved in the preparation and organisation of young police
12 officers for the implementation of the most complex tasks. His work
13 colleagues respect him because he excels in all activities as their true
15 Now, my only question to you is: Is that consistent with your
16 impressions that the younger police officers looked up to him as a leader
17 of sorts? Not an official rank leader but because of his experience and
18 the fact that, it says here, he actively worked in preparing them, that
19 they regarded him with respect as a sort of, if you like, moral leader?
20 Was that consistent with your impression of how he was regarded by the
21 younger officers?
22 A. As for younger officers, they were all equal, they were all
23 together, but they liked -- some preferred to work with my husband
24 because he liked a good joke and the terms were good. It has nothing to
25 do with what this document says. Everybody liked to work with him. So
1 nothing as regards the nickname or something else.
2 JUDGE WALD: Okay.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mrs. Radic, I also have a few
4 questions for you.
5 You said at some point that your husband, that he was a policeman
6 responsible for security, that he was nothing else as far as other things
7 were concerned. You remember that you answered that during the
9 A. Yes. I said that he was a policeman and nothing but a policeman.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But when you said "nothing else
11 as far as other things are concerned," what does that mean?
12 A. Well, I don't know. Perhaps if you thought that he had his shift
13 or something like that, that is not true. They were all equal. He could
14 not have any higher post, that is what I meant. His only job was a
15 policeman's job.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, Mrs. Radic, I did not ask
17 you that. You somehow used the words "for other things," and that is what
18 I wanted to ask you about. But never mind.
19 However, there is another thing that I want to ask you about. You
20 said that he preferred to go to the front than to be surrounded by his own
21 people in the collection centre.
22 A. Well, yes. When he was in the collections centre, it was three or
23 four days later when the centre was set up either by Banja Luka, or when
24 some special police came down there - at least that is what my husband
25 told me - he called them to go down there. They were not told anything.
1 They were just told that they had to go there and guard that area.
2 And, believe me, he came back in tears, he came back from work in
3 tears. He never otherwise cried. And he said, "I can't be down there
4 because I can't help those people. I know them all but I can't help
5 them. I'd rather go wherever, to the front line, but not be here." But
6 that he was told, "You have to do as ordered." And then we talked and I
7 thought, well, at least he would be near his home, and the children are
8 there. I asked him too, "Well, why don't you stay? Because, after all,
9 you will perhaps be able to help and then it will be remembered perhaps at
10 some later day."
11 So now at times I feel responsible that --
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mrs. Radic, excuse me, but
13 did he only speak about -- was that the only time that he would rather go
14 to the front line? Was that the only time that he said that, or was it on
15 different occasions?
16 A. No. At that time, he told his superior but the superior said,
17 "You talk, you talk, but you have to do as ordered." So that was that
18 and how things went.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you say that he even spoke to
20 his superior because your husband had told you, or how did you learn
21 about that?
22 A. Well, in different ways, because he complained. He said he'd
23 rather not go. I really learned it from different people. But then I
24 asked him to stay there if possible, not to go to the front line, because
25 of the children and our home and all the rest. I thought he'd be able to
1 help his colleagues and friends, relatives, because we also had relatives
2 there, and all that, and that is why --
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mrs. Radic, I'm sorry to
4 interrupt you. But did you really believe that your husband could have
5 also gone to the front? Was it only a matter of complaining, or was he
6 really ready to go to the front at that time?
7 A. No. He really wanted to go to the front, not to be in Prijedor or
8 Omarska. He really had it hard.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. But do you know
10 whether there was something he could do in order to be sent to the front
11 line, had he really wanted to do that?
12 A. Well, how? He wouldn't be able to because he also received
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. What kind of
15 threats; that is, who threatened him and how?
16 A. I do not know. He simply said, "I cannot." When I suggested
17 something to him, the answer -- and somebody told him, "You just talk too
18 much. You have to do what your job is. You have to do your job." That's
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right. But from your point of
21 view, it means that persons who could send him to the front had decided
22 instead -- had decided instead to make him stay; is that it?
23 A. Well, he had to stay there. He simply had to stay.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you learn about any
25 policemen who did go to the front line, to the battlefield, having been
1 there first?
2 A. No. At that time, no. At that time, they had withdrawn everybody
3 from the front. At that time, not everybody had returned from there,
4 except the troops, of course. But the police had to stay there. All of
5 the policemen had to stay there.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] From your point of view, to go
7 to the front line at that time, under those circumstances, would it have
8 meant a sanction or would it have meant a reward, a prize?
9 A. Well, I don't understand what kind of it. One had to go to fight
10 regardless, and it could not be either a reward or punishment.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Mrs. Radic, we have
12 no other questions for you. Thank you very much for coming here. We wish
13 you a happy return to your home. Now the usher will escort you from the
14 courtroom. Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would also like to
16 thank you.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Maybe we could rehear the
19 version tomorrow, because at this moment I have some other assignments.
20 But perhaps tomorrow morning we could devote some time to that.
21 Is that what you wish? Is that why you are on your feet,
22 Ms. Somers?
23 MS. SOMERS: No, Your Honour. I just want, as is custom here at
24 the close, to seek to move into evidence Prosecution's 3/231, the document
25 which we just looked at. There is an English component and a B/C/S
1 component, and if the registrar wants to make an A and B, I would just be
2 grateful to know how it is ultimately designated.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That is all?
4 MS. SOMERS: Yes, thank you.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to the
7 admission of this document because of this authenticity. It could have
8 been shown to the person whose signature allegedly it bears rather than to
9 the wife of the accused Radic, because I do not know what this document
10 is, the one that is on the table. I do challenge its authenticity because
11 it was not shown to the person who signed it. It was shown to Mr. Radic's
12 wife who never saw it before. I do not think it can be tendered through
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, do you wish to
16 MS. SOMERS: Yes. As you know, we apologise for having tried to
17 get in after, and we did make a record request to try to reopen in the
18 interests of justice, but I think the relevance is plain.
19 The witness Delic himself acknowledged this morning that there
20 was, in fact, a document which he signed - he said it had a November 1993
21 date - and acknowledged as much as he could recall without seeing anything
22 of the contents. This document, in fact, is a November 1993 document.
23 The only award that was granted, according to Mrs. Radic, to the witness.
24 I think that there's no question that this is what was being discussed
25 this morning, Your Honours. Certainly, that can be reserved for argument
1 or an issue of weight. But I'm confident that we have shown relevance and
2 authenticity sufficiently for purposes of admission.
3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] All I can say is --
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Only a minor objection. Mr. Delic did
6 not see this document and therefore he could not say if he had signed it
7 or not. We discussed a document which was not shown to him. I do not
8 know whether this is the document.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, let us not repeat
10 things. I gave you the floor to say something -- if you have something
11 new to say. Yes, Ms. Somers, if you have something new to say, then you
12 have the floor. Otherwise, no. Do you have something new to say?
13 MS. SOMERS: Only if the Chamber wishes and would permit us to --
14 while Mr. Delic is still in The Hague, to bring him back and ask. I think
15 it would be no problem. We would make that request, if that's necessary.
16 Otherwise, I think we've shown relevance and authenticity. We'll leave it
17 in the Chamber's hands.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber admits the document
21 P3/231. It is admitted.
22 Therefore, tomorrow I shall ask the registrar to prepare the
23 tape-recording for tomorrow, and I should like, if possible, I don't know
24 how it can be done technically, but to hear only the original --
25 Mr. Fila's questions in the original and the witness' answer in the
1 original, and after that, the booths will interpret what they hear. And
2 even if the interpretation does not coincide, it does not matter. But we
3 shall make the comparison between the original that was heard and the
4 version which we already have. So I should like to ask the registrar to
5 prepare it tomorrow but only the original in the B/C/S.
6 So tomorrow at 9.20 we shall be resuming our work. Thank you.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.18 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of
9 March, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.