Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9513

 1                          Tuesday, 27 March 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m.

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Please be

 6    seated.

 7            Good morning to the technical booth, the interpreters, the

 8    Registry staff, counsel for the Prosecution, counsel for the Defence.  We

 9    will resume our hearing, and it is up to Mr. Stojanovic to tell us what we

10    are going to do today.

11            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good morning.  With

12    your permission, we will continue with the testimony of witnesses.

13    However, I would like to ask for a clarification of a decision of yours.

14    We have received your ruling about the videolink for our witnesses

15    scheduled for the 18th and 19th of April.  Five witnesses have been

16    planned for the videolink.  At the same time, we have envisaged four

17    witnesses in the courtroom here.  So could you assist us?  Will that be

18    feasible, and how?

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We will look into that after the

20    break, because I do not have the information at hand, and I will let you

21    know after the break.

22            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  The

23    Defence calls its next witness.  It is a protected witness.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Susan Somers.

25            MS. SOMERS:  Pardon me for interrupting, Your Honour.  I just

Page 9514

 1    wanted, in order so there is no interruption in the flow of witnesses, I

 2    just wanted to remind my learned friend that we do not have identities on

 3    certain pseudonym witnesses, so it could affect cross-examination if

 4    things move slowly - I'm sorry - quickly:  DD/5, 7, 4, 8, and 3.  If that

 5    could be remedied before the end of the day, we can make sure there will

 6    no problem.  Thank you.

 7            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I respond?  Your Honour, by

 8    the end of the day we will be in the courtroom, so I doubt that we will

 9    have time.  This obviously applies to our obligation which begins to run

10    from the 9th of April, and I think that we will certainly observe the

11    minimum term of eight days -- seven days regarding the disclosure of the

12    identity of those witnesses.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.

14            MS. SOMERS:  Your Honour, DD/5 is number seventh witness, so if we

15    move, we simply have no information on this individual.  I think that will

16    be a problem.

17            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is a witness who

18    has been scheduled for the 9th of April, so during this week certainly,

19    maybe even tomorrow, we will be able to disclose his identity.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay, then.  Ms. Susan Somers.

21            MS. SOMERS:  If this is counsel's representation, then I will have

22    to accept it and just see how it goes.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, I think we

24    discussed this request for protective measures.  The question was raised

25    and you took upon yourself the obligation to communicate the identity of

Page 9515

 1    the witnesses.  So it's up to you.  If the witnesses arrive and the

 2    conditions have not been met, you will be creating a problem, so you will

 3    have to disclose the identity within the time limit envisaged.

 4            So let us begin.  Which witness are you calling, Mr. Stojanovic?

 5    Who is your next witness?

 6            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.  Microphone.

 7            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Our next witness is a protected

 8    witness with a pseudonym DD/1, and my co-counsel, Mr. Deretic, will be

 9    conducting the examination-in-chief.  Could the witness be brought in,

10    please.

11                          [The witness entered court]

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness DD/1.  Can

13    you hear me?  Can you hear me?  Are you hearing me?  Are you listening to

14    me?  Can you hear me now?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That's fine.  Please read the

17    solemn declaration given to you by the usher.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

21                          WITNESS:  WITNESS DD/1

22                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for coming.

24    You will now be answering questions put to you by Mr. Deretic first, and

25    after that, there will come questions by the Prosecutor and the Judges as

Page 9516

 1            well.

 2            Mr. Deretic, your witness.

 3            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me for a moment.  Before

 5    we begin, I think we need to show the witness a piece of paper with his

 6    name and pseudonym.

 7            Witness DD/1, the usher will show you a piece of paper with your

 8    name on it.  Please tell us whether that is indeed your name.

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The interpreters are telling me

11    that they are not hearing the witness very well.

12            Mr. Deretic, let us begin, please.

13            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14                          Examined by Mr. Deretic:

15       Q.   Witness DD/1, can you hear me?

16       A.   Yes.

17            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as this is a

18    protected witness, could we please briefly go into private session for

19    some identification information.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Let's go into private

21    session.

22                          [Private session]

23   [redacted]

24   [redacted]

25   [redacted]

Page 9517













13   Page 9517 redacted – private session













Page 9518

 1   [redacted]

 2   [redacted]

 3   [redacted]

 4                          [Open session]

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session.  Please

 6    continue, Mr. Deretic.

 7            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8       Q.   After the beginning of the war in the area of Prijedor

 9    municipality and in Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole, where were you

10    residing?

11       A.   In Prijedor.

12       Q.   Do you know when power was taken over in Prijedor?

13       A.   On the 30th of April.

14       Q.   Who took over power?

15       A.   The Serbs.

16       Q.   Do you recall how this takeover evolved?  Did it happen by

17    peaceful means or by force of arms?

18       A.   By peaceful means.

19       Q.   Do you know when Prijedor was attacked?

20       A.   On the 30th of May, 1992.

21       Q.   Do you know who it was that attacked Prijedor?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   During the attack on Prijedor, were there any casualties, any dead

24    soldiers?

25       A.   Yes.  Yes.

Page 9519

 1       Q.   And policemen?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   During the attack on Prijedor, where were you?

 4       A.   At home.

 5       Q.   Make a short pause for the interpretation, please.

 6            Where was your house?

 7       A.   [redacted].

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, has the witness got

 9    any notes in front of him?

10            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I can't see any from here,

11    Mr. President.

12       A.   No.  No.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please proceed.

14    Because I see whenever he's giving his answer, the witness is looking at

15    the monitor rather than at you.  It's simply to make sure.

16            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

17       Q.   Witness DD/1, where is Puharska?  Is it in the centre of town, on

18    the outskirts?  In which town?

19       A.   It is in the outskirts of Prijedor.

20       Q.   Could you tell us what the ethnic composition of the inhabitants

21    of the Puharska district was?

22       A.   There were more Muslims.

23       Q.   Could you please give us your answer now.

24       A.   Yes.  There were more Muslims, but there were also Serbs and

25    Croats.  But the Muslims were the majority.

Page 9520

 1       Q.   Tell us, is your house today in Puharska?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   What happened to your house?

 4       A.   It was destroyed.

 5       Q.   Who destroyed your house?

 6       A.   The Serbs.

 7       Q.   After Prijedor was attacked, and you said this happened on the

 8    30th of May --

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   -- did you personally suffer any consequences as a result of that

11    attack?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   What kind of consequences?

14       A.   We were collected and taken to a camp.

15       Q.   Who rounded you up?

16       A.   The army.

17       Q.   Whose army?

18       A.   Of Republika Srpska.

19       Q.   When did this happen?

20       A.   On the 30th of May, 1992.

21       Q.   Was this in the morning or in the afternoon?

22       A.   About midday.

23       Q.   At about what time did this happen?

24       A.   At about 12.00.

25       Q.   Could you please describe this event to Their Honours?

Page 9521

 1       A.   I can.

 2       Q.   So tell us, what happened?

 3       A.   The soldiers came in our part of Puharska and said all of us under

 4    60 had to come out onto the road.  We all went to the road --

 5       Q.   Just slow down a little.

 6       A.   We were lined up against a fence.  We were all standing there with

 7    our hands raised.  The soldiers came, they beat us and mistreated us, and

 8    they boarded us onto buses and drove us off to Omarska.  In Omarska I

 9    didn't stay for more than two hours, and then I was taken back to

10    Keraterm.  This applies to both me and my brothers.

11       Q.   Were you told by those soldiers why you were being rounded up and

12    taken there?

13       A.   They told us that we were going there for interrogation, to see

14    whether we had taken part in the attack on Prijedor or whether we had been

15    involved in that attack.

16       Q.   You said that you were first taken to Omarska.

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   What was the place you were taken to?

19       A.   There were mostly Muslims detained there.

20       Q.   Was this a kind of compound?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Was it fenced in, this compound?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   And why did you stay there for only two hours?

25       A.   Because there was no more room for us there.

Page 9522

 1       Q.   After you went back to Keraterm --

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   -- did you all get off?

 4       A.   We did.

 5       Q.   Had you known a person by the name of Zoran Zigic up till then?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Did you meet that person in Keraterm then?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   When did you meet him?

10       A.   I met Zigic two or three days after my arrival there.

11       Q.   Could you or, rather, do you remember the occasion when you first

12    came into contact with him?

13       A.   I do.  There was a shortage of cigarettes in the camp at the

14    time.

15       Q.   Just please slow down.

16       A.   So there were no cigarettes.  I saw a soldier smoking, and I asked

17    him, "Could I have a cigarette?" and that is how I came to meet Zoran

18    Zigic.  Zoran Zigic gave me a cigarette, and I thanked him for it.  Then

19    Zoran Zigic asked me --

20       Q.   Slow down, please.

21       A.   He asked me, "Would you sell some cigarettes?" and I said I

22    would.  So I sold some, and Zoran Zigic left me two packages of Kent

23    cigarettes, and that is how I came to meet him.

24       Q.   Did Zoran Zigic in any way hurt you physically or mentally?

25       A.   No.

Page 9523

 1       Q.   In that time period when you met him, did he give you any kind of

 2    assistance in Keraterm?

 3       A.   Yes, he did.

 4       Q.   How did he assist you?

 5       A.   He saved my life.

 6       Q.   Would you be kind enough to explain what exactly you mean when you

 7    say he saved your life.

 8       A.   I will.  I was in the camp.  A soldier came up to me.  He took out

 9    a knife to kill me.  I ran to Zoran Zigic and said, "Look, Zigic.  This

10    one wants to kill me."  And then Zigic said to me, "Sit down there.  Not a

11    hair may be touched on your head."  So I sat down there, and I had

12    something to eat and to drink together with Zoran Zigic, and Zigic

13    accompanied me to the dormitory.

14       Q.   Was Zigic armed on that occasion?  Do you remember that?

15       A.   I do not.

16       Q.   During that first encounter you had with Zoran Zigic, do you

17    remember how he was dressed?

18       A.   I do.

19       Q.   What was he wearing?

20       A.   He was wearing a camouflage uniform and a red beret.

21       Q.   Do you perhaps remember any other details that were characteristic

22    of Zoran Zigic at the time?

23       A.   His left hand was bandaged.

24       Q.   When you saw Zoran Zigic for the first time and then the days that

25    followed, did you see him again; if you did, and when was this?

Page 9524

 1       A.   In the first half of the month of June.

 2       Q.   Would you see him every day?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   In addition to his left bandaged hand, did you notice that at any

 5    time he had dyed hair?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   When you met him for the first time, what colour was his hair?

 8       A.   Black.

 9       Q.   Did you notice Zoran Zigic wearing any earrings, one or two?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Did you ever notice that he may have been wearing black gloves

12    with the fingers cut off?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   When you arrived at Keraterm --

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   -- could you tell us where you were put up?

17       A.   In number 2.

18       Q.   What do you mean "number 2"?

19       A.   Room 2, where we were put up.

20       Q.   How many rooms were there at the time?

21       A.   Four.

22       Q.   When you arrived at Keraterm, how many rooms were there?

23       A.   Three.

24       Q.   So after you were put up in this room, were you interrogated?

25       A.   I was.

Page 9525

 1       Q.   How many times were you interrogated?

 2       A.   Once.

 3       Q.   How many days after you arrived in Keraterm were you

 4    interrogated?

 5       A.   Three or four days after that.

 6       Q.   Do you remember who interrogated you?

 7       A.   I do not.

 8       Q.   Please tell us:  After you arrived and when you were interrogated,

 9    what were you interrogated about?

10       A.   I was asked whether I had participated in the attack on Prijedor

11    and whether I had engaged in any black marketeering with weapons.

12       Q.   After the interrogation, did your status change in Keraterm

13    itself?

14       A.   It did.

15       Q.   So how did it change?

16       A.   I was transferred to Room 1.

17       Q.   Were you given any duties then?

18       A.   I was.

19       Q.   What were your duties?

20       A.   I was put in charge of food and water.

21       Q.   What were you expected to do with the food and water?

22       A.   To carry food and water and to distribute it, because in the

23    morning, when we had breakfast, we would all line up, and as I was charged

24    with the duty of distributing the food, some people would take five times

25    and some wouldn't get to have one helping.

Page 9526

 1       Q.   Was your freedom of movement restricted after the interrogation?

 2       A.   It was.

 3       Q.   Tell us, please, in connection with what you just said:  Did

 4    anyone assist you in the distribution of food and water?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Can you tell us who it was?

 7       A.   I can.

 8       Q.   Do you remember?

 9       A.   I do.

10       Q.   The name, please.

11       A.   [redacted]

12       Q.   Do you know where the food and water came from to Keraterm?

13       A.   I just know about the water.  I don't know about the food.  The

14    water came from a tank truck.

15       Q.   Do you know where it was brought from, the water?

16       A.   From the utilities company water supply system, in tank trucks,

17    the first time.  And then I went with Zoran Zigic to fetch water also in a

18    minibus.  I went, and my brothers, with him.

19       Q.   Do you know what Zoran Zigic was doing in Keraterm?

20       A.   I do not.

21       Q.   Since you mentioned the minibus, did you see Zoran drive it?

22       A.   I did.

23       Q.   Did you see what he was transporting in the minibus?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   You said that at first you were accommodated in Room 2, and after

Page 9527

 1    that, after the interrogation, in Room 1; is that right?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Tell us, please, about your brothers.  After you arrived in

 4    Keraterm, which room were they put into?

 5       A.   Room 2, until the interrogation.

 6       Q.   And after the interrogation?

 7       A.   In Room 1.

 8       Q.   And during the day, were you able to move around inside the

 9    compound of the Keraterm facility?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And while you were walking around, did you see Zoran Zigic inside

12    the compound?

13       A.   Only once.  Only when Sead Jusufagic was brought in in a police

14    van.

15       Q.   Would you tell us, please:  In Room 2, where you were

16    accommodated --

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   -- can you tell us what size this room was?

19       A.   I don't remember, but I know it was a big room.

20       Q.   What kind of door was there?

21       A.   It was a metal door.

22       Q.   After you were moved to Room 1, what kind of door was there on

23    that room?

24       A.   It was -- there were bars, so that you could see through them.

25    You could see everything.

Page 9528

 1       Q.   Would you tell me, please:  Were you able to move around the

 2    Keraterm compound by night?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   On those occasions, did you see Zoran Zigic?

 5       A.   No.

 6            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your permission,

 7    I will ask for the assistance of the usher.  I have in front of me a

 8    sketch of Keraterm.  I think it comes from my colleagues in the OTP, and

 9    we have copied it in several copies.  So I would like to have it shown to

10    the witness so that he can explain to the Chamber where each room was and

11    whether this is a sketch of Keraterm, because I will be asking questions

12    about certain details, so it will be easier for the Trial Chamber to

13    follow.

14            Would you be so kind as to distribute this.  Would you put a copy

15    on the ELMO.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, does this exhibit

17    already have a number or is this the first time we see it?  I think it's

18    the first time.

19            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  This is the

20    first time I am showing this sketch.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that case, what number will

22    it have?

23            THE REGISTRAR:  [Previous translation continues] ... E8/4.

24            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  With your permission, I

25    will continue.

Page 9529

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The transcript is not clear.

 2    Could you switch on your microphone and start speaking only once it is

 3    lit.  What is exhibit number, Madam Registrar, please?

 4            THE REGISTRAR:  The exhibit number is D8/4.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't know, but isn't it

 6    Exhibit D4/8 because we have the accused number 4?  Isn't that so,

 7    Madam Registrar?  This is the fourth accused.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Right, Your Honour, and that's why the "4" is

 9    after the number of exhibit.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, no.  I don't think so.  What

11    was the system used for the other Defence counsel, Madam Registrar,

12    please?

13            THE REGISTRAR:  A number was given and then a slash and then the

14    number of the accused.  So I'm following the same order.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay, then.  Please proceed.

16            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17       Q.   Witness DD/1, you see this sketch in front of you.  Is this the

18    sketch of the Keraterm investigation centre in Prijedor?

19            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter could not hear the witness.

20            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   Could you show us where Room 1 was and Room 2?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Could you please write it in in pencil and have it marked -- mark

24    it "X" or "1" and "2".  And in front of Room 1, could you write the number

25    "1".

Page 9530

 1       A.   [Marks]

 2       Q.   Are you sure that you have marked these rooms correctly?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Could you please indicate where the toilet was in this room.  If

 5    there was one, of course.

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Where was it?

 8       A.   Between 3 and 2.

 9       Q.   Very well.

10            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] This sketch can be taken off the

11    ELMO now, and, Mr. President, I will go on with my questions, but we are

12    sure to need the sketch for future reference.

13       Q.   Witness DD/1, did you know a person named Sead Jusufagic,

14    nicknamed Car?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Did you know that person before your arrival in Keraterm?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Was he brought to Keraterm?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   What kind of person was he?

21       A.   You mean Car?

22       Q.   Yes.  What was Car like as a person?

23       A.   Well, he was a thief.  He did time in gaols.  He was tried.  I

24    knew him before the war, and he used to steal and commit burglaries, and

25    he spent time in prisons.

Page 9531

 1       Q.   Do you remember when Car was brought to Keraterm?  For example, in

 2    comparison to your arrival.

 3       A.   Well, it was two or three days after I arrived in Keraterm.

 4       Q.   Do you remember how Car was brought to Keraterm?

 5       A.   Car was brought in in a police van, number 53.

 6       Q.   What does that number mean?

 7       A.   Well, that refers to a machine-gun.

 8       Q.   Do you know where he was brought from?

 9       A.   From the hill.  From Brdo.

10       Q.   What do you mean by "Brdo"?

11       A.   Well, it's the vicinity of Prijedor, because that was where

12    fighting going on and that's where he was caught.  It's near Prijedor,

13    near Rizvanovici, Bircani, Zecovi, Carakovo, Hambarine.

14       Q.   Are those villages?  Are you telling us the names of villages?

15       A.   Yes, yes.

16       Q.   After Car was brought to Keraterm, did you see him there?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Was Car maltreated in Keraterm?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Was he beaten?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Who beat him?

23       A.   Well, the first time he came in -- when he was brought in in the

24    police van, I saw soldiers around him, and they made him run around in

25    circles with the 53 machine-gun, and I saw soldiers beating him in the

Page 9532












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Page 9533

 1    compound.

 2       Q.   Did you know any of the soldiers --

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   -- and reserve policemen --

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   -- who were beating Sead Jusufagic, also known as Car?

 7       A.   Yes.  I knew only Cupo.

 8       Q.   Could you slow down, please.  Whom did you know?

 9       A.   Cupo Banovic.  I don't know what his name was, his first name.

10       Q.   Can you describe the way in which the soldiers and policemen beat

11    Car?

12       A.   Well, it was because they had caught him with the light

13    machine-gun, the 53.

14       Q.   But how did they beat him?

15       A.   Well, they kicked him.  They punched him.  Cupo hit him with a

16    truncheon, in fact, with a baseball bat.

17       Q.   Can you describe his appearance?  What did he look like?

18       A.   Yes.  He was thin, yellow -- of a sallow complexion.  His teeth

19    were missing.  He had long fair hair.  I know Sead very well.

20       Q.   Would you tell me, please --

21            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

22            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Did you ever see Car running around the compound?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   When?

Page 9534

 1       A.   Only once, when he was brought in in the police van.

 2       Q.   Who made him run round the compound?

 3       A.   The group of soldiers and reserve policemen.

 4       Q.   Will you tell us, please, did you see Zoran Zigic among that group

 5    of soldiers?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Did Zoran Zigic beat Car?

 8       A.   He only kicked him once, from behind, in the bottom, because I was

 9    there and I saw it.

10       Q.   How far were you from that group of soldiers and from Car when he

11    was running?

12       A.   Well, about 10 metres.

13            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to ask

14    for the usher's assistance again and to put back the sketch on the ELMO.

15    I will need it for my next question.

16       Q.   Do you remember --

17            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] We don't have this.  Yes.

18       Q.   Well, could you please point with your pencil to the place where

19    Car was running, how he was running, in what direction, and how this

20    happened, whether Car was running from Room 1 to Room 4, over the entire

21    area, or was it somewhere else.  Do you remember?

22       A.   I remember.

23       Q.   Would you be so kind as to indicate with your pencil where Car was

24    running and how he was running.

25       A.   Well, he was running in circles like this.

Page 9535

 1       Q.   Was he running in only one direction or in a circle?

 2       A.   He was running in a circle.

 3       Q.   Could you show it to us?

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, perhaps

 5    instructions should be given to the witness for him to point out to us on

 6    the ELMO so that we can see that, and the witness probably doesn't know

 7    that.

 8            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I meant.  Could the

 9    usher assist?

10       Q.   In front of which room was he running?

11       A.   In front of number 1.

12       Q.   Well, where did you mark number 1?  Could you show us now where he

13    was running?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And while he was running -- could you now put the letter "C" in

16    the middle of this circle.

17       A.   [Marks]

18       Q.   Please, does this mean that this is the circle in which Car was

19    running?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   What was the breadth of that circle?

22       A.   Well, it wasn't very big.

23       Q.   Well, what was the diameter?  Can you tell us?

24       A.   Well, it was about 5 metres long and 4 metres wide.  It was a

25    small circle where he was running.

Page 9536

 1       Q.   Could you tell us, please, where the soldiers were as Car was

 2    running?

 3       A.   They were standing around him.  Car was in the middle and the

 4    soldiers were standing all around.

 5       Q.   How many times did you see him run the circle?

 6       A.   Once.

 7       Q.   And apart from this running, apart from this incident when you

 8    said the soldiers were beating him, did you see Car being beaten later on

 9    by soldiers or policemen?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And among the soldiers who were beating Car, did you see Zoran

12    Zigic?

13       A.   No.  I only saw him once.  I only saw him kick Car in the bottom

14    on one occasion, just after he had been brought in.

15       Q.   Do you know when Car died?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   When did this happen?

18       A.   From the 6th to the 7th of June.

19       Q.   Was he beaten then?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Who beat him?

22       A.   Well, the soldiers called out his name when Zoran Karlica was

23    killed.  After they returned to Keraterm from his funeral, they called out

24    for Car.  They called out his name there at night and they beat him.  I

25    heard his screams.  You could hear everything.  And they beat him there.

Page 9537

 1    It was Nikica Janjic, Mica Banovic and Cupo Banovic who beat him.

 2       Q.   Can you explain who Zoran Karlica was?  Could you just pause for

 3    the interpretation, please.  So who was Zoran Karlica?

 4       A.   Well, Zoran Karlica was a Major in Republika Srpska.

 5       Q.   Was he from Prijedor?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Can you remember -- this group of soldiers who came back from the

 8    funeral, do you remember what time it was?

 9       A.   Well, it was after midnight.

10       Q.   Where did they beat Car?

11       A.   Near Room 3.

12       Q.   And was the Keraterm compound lighted up at the time?

13       A.   Yes.  There were two lampposts only.

14       Q.   On that night, did you see Car dead?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   When did you see him?

17       A.   In the morning, when with I came out of Room 1.  A soldier came to

18    fetch me and ordered me to carry him to Room 4, behind the pallets.

19       Q.   What sort of pallets were these?

20       A.   They were the Keraterm factory pallets.

21       Q.   What were they made of?

22       A.   Wood.  Wooden boards.

23       Q.   Witness DD/1, apart from the time when you saw Zigic kick Car that

24    you described, did you see on any other occasion that Zoran beat Car?

25       A.   No.  It was only what I described.  When Car was brought in in a

Page 9538

 1    police van, Zoran Zigic hit him only once.  In fact, he kicked him in the

 2    bottom.

 3       Q.   Do you know a person called Emsud Bahonjic?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Do you know a person called Drago Tokmadzic?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Who was he?

 8       A.   A policeman before the war.

 9       Q.   Did you see him in Keraterm?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   When was Drago Tokmadzic brought to Keraterm?  Do you remember?

12       A.   Between the 8th and the 10th of July.

13       Q.   Between the 8th and the 10th?  What month?  Was it the same month

14    when Car was brought in?

15       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes.

16       Q.   How many days after you were brought in was Drago Tokmadzic

17    brought in?  Can you tell us what month it was?

18       A.   Well, I don't remember the month.  I know approximately the day.

19    It was six or seven days after I was brought in.

20       Q.   Very well.  After Drago Tokmadzic was brought to Keraterm, what

21    room was he brought to?

22       A.   Number 2.

23       Q.   Was Drago Tokmadzic moved from this room during his stay in

24    Keraterm?

25       A.   No.

Page 9539

 1       Q.   And did you see Drago Tokmadzic beaten?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Did you see Drago Tokmadzic dead?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And where did you see him when he was dead?

 6       A.   In front of Room 3.

 7       Q.   What was Drago Tokmadzic wearing or what did he have on?

 8       A.   A police uniform and a police cap with a five-pointed star.

 9       Q.   Do you remember when he was brought in?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   What was he wearing then?

12       A.   A police uniform.

13       Q.   And was he wearing a cap at that time?

14       A.   Yes, with a five-pointed star.

15       Q.   Would you tell me, please, when you saw Drago Tokmadzic dead, can

16    you tell us approximately when that might have been?

17       A.   Well, it was on the 26th of July [as interpreted] that I saw Drago

18    dead.

19       Q.   Did you say the 20th of July?

20       A.   No.  I meant the 20th of June.

21       Q.   I apologise.  I didn't hear you properly.  You said that --

22            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Your Honour.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.

24            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  The interpretation that I heard was the 26th,

25    but then after that, Mr. Deretic repeated the date as the 20th and the

Page 9540

 1    transcript has changed.  Maybe we can check to see whether it is the 26th

 2    or the 20th.

 3            My objection was that Mr. Deretic was leading after the witness

 4    gave that answer.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that the date in the

 6    LiveNote is the 20th of June, but in any event, you heard the objection.

 7            So, Mr. Deretic, do you have a reply?

 8            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I heard the witness

 9    use the word "July," so I just wanted the witness to repeat.  He said

10    "June," in fact - I misheard - and we see "June" in the transcript.  So

11    the witness said the 26th -- the 20th of June.

12            Mr. President, to avoid and exclude any vagueness, let me ask the

13    witness once again does he remember --

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Put the question to the

15    witness once more.

16            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

17       Q.   Do you remember when you saw Drago Tokmadzic dead?

18       A.   On the 20th of June.

19       Q.   So on the 20th of June.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, that is the date in the

21    LiveNote, page 26, line 15.

22            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I think it's clear now.

23       Q.   Witness DD/1, you said that you didn't see when Drago Tokmadzic

24    was killed.  Do you know what he died of?

25       A.   He died from the beatings.

Page 9541

 1       Q.   How do you know that?

 2       A.   I saw it when I carried him.  I saw blood trickling from his

 3    mouth, from the head.  It wasn't the result of a pistol shot or a gunshot

 4    but from blows.  There was blood that had thickened on his head.

 5       Q.   Did you see any haematoma, swellings on Drago Tokmadzic's body,

 6    that is, bruises?

 7       A.   Yes, I did.

 8       Q.   You said that you carried Drago Tokmadzic.  Why?

 9       A.   I was ordered to carry him.

10       Q.   Who gave you that order?

11       A.   A soldier.  I don't remember his name.

12       Q.   Do you have any knowledge as to who beat Drago Tokmadzic?

13       A.   I do not.

14       Q.   You said that you saw him on the 20th of June, 1992.

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   On that day, a couple of days before that day, and after that day,

17    did you see Zoran Zigic in Keraterm?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   During your stay in the Keraterm investigation centre, could you

20    tell us when you found it most difficult?

21       A.   Yes, I can.  The night of the 24th to the 25th.  That was the

22    worst.

23       Q.   You didn't mention the month.  You just gave the dates.

24       A.   The month of June.

25       Q.   Was that the same month as the one when you saw Drago Tokmadzic?

Page 9542

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Could you perhaps be more precise as to the period that passed

 3    from the moment you arrived until this date that you mentioned?  How long

 4    into your stay was that?

 5       A.   How long?

 6       Q.   Yes.

 7       A.   Could you repeat the question, please.

 8       Q.   My question is:  Could you remember how much time went by from the

 9    moment you arrived until this event that you just mentioned?  Did it

10    happen in the same month in which you arrived or several months later?

11    Could you tell us something more about the time that elapsed?

12       A.   No, I can't.  I don't know.  It was a long time ago.  It was nine

13    years ago.

14       Q.   And what happened on that particular day?

15       A.   Well, I know I heard a moan in Room 3.  They were moaning.  I

16    heard shooting.  I heard shooting and so on.

17       Q.   Do you remember, was that during the day or during the night?

18       A.   After midnight.

19       Q.   Do you remember that day, that is, the day before night fell, what

20    kind of day was it?  Was it a sunny day, a rainy day?  Was it overcast?

21       A.   It was a sunny day.

22       Q.   Do you remember whether you or someone else distributed food to

23    the detainees that day?

24       A.   Yes.  I  did, and [redacted].

25       Q.   Can you remember whether it was breakfast, lunch, or dinner?

Page 9543

 1       A.   Breakfast.

 2       Q.   About what time was that?

 3       A.   About 11.00.

 4       Q.   Can you remember to which room you distributed the food?

 5       A.   To the persons in number 3.

 6       Q.   Was that the customary time for distributing food in Keraterm?

 7       A.   It was.

 8       Q.   Did you distribute water to the detainees?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Who distributed the water with you?

11       A.   Myself and [redacted].

12       Q.   Could you describe how you gave water to the detainees or, rather,

13    where they were at the time.  Were they outside or in the rooms?

14       A.   In Room 3.

15       Q.   What did you carry the water in?

16       A.   In plastic bottles of one and a half litres.

17       Q.   Was that room locked or unlocked at the time?

18       A.   It was locked.

19       Q.   What kind of a door did Room 3 have?

20       A.   A metal door.

21       Q.   Well, how would you pass the water to the detainees?

22       A. [redacted] was responsible for us.  He would unlock the door and

23    I gave them bottles with the water to drink.

24       Q.   Who was [redacted]?

25       A. [redacted].

Page 9544

 1       Q.   Were you in the Keraterm compound in the afternoon too?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Did you see Zoran Zigic at that time?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   On that day, were you able to intimate or to have any feeling of

 6    foreboding about something that was going to happen that day?

 7       A.   No.  I don't remember.

 8       Q.   Did anything at all that was unusual occur in Keraterm on that

 9    day?

10       A.   No, it did not.  Everything was normal.

11       Q.   Could you tell us who were the persons who were detained in Room

12    3?

13       A.   I can.  They were people from Kozarac and from Brdo.  They were in

14    Room 3.

15       Q.   Do you have any knowledge as to why those persons from those

16    particular villages were in that room?

17       A.   Because there was a war going on in Kozarac and in Brdo.  There

18    was fighting.

19       Q.   Witness DD/1, can you recall when those persons were brought to

20    Room 3?

21       A.   No, I cannot remember.

22       Q.   Do you know or do you remember that those persons may have been

23    brought in that day or earlier on --

24            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Your Honour --

25            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9545

 1       Q.   -- in relation to the shooting you mention?

 2            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  The witness said that he cannot remember when

 3    they were brought to the camp.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.

 5            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in answer to my

 6    question, the witness said that he did not remember on what day they were

 7    brought in, so I'm reminding him of the shooting so that perhaps that

 8    would refresh his memory in relation to the shooting.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.  They are

10    two different questions, so Mr. Deretic is quite in order in posing his

11    question.

12            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There's one thing to know

14    whether the witness knows the date, and another question is whether the

15    persons were brought in, so these are two quite different matters.

16            Continue, Mr. Deretic.

17            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

18       Q.   Witness, do you remember that day and whether there were any

19    weapons positioned within the Keraterm compound?

20       A.   Yes, there were.

21       Q.   What kind of weapons were they?

22       A.   Rifles 53 and other rifles.

23       Q.   What is a 53?  Is that a machine-gun?

24       A.   Yes, a light machine-gun.

25       Q.   How many such light machine-guns were there?

Page 9546

 1       A.   Two.

 2       Q.   Do you recollect where they were positioned?

 3       A.   Yes, I do.

 4            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could I ask the usher

 5    for his assistance once again, if he could assist the witness, please, so

 6    that the witness can show the positions of those machine-guns.

 7            So could you please be at the side of the witness to speed things

 8    up and assist him when necessary.

 9       Q.   Would you be kind enough to show us or, rather, to mark with an

10    "X" the positions of those machine-guns.

11       A.   There was one here and there was another one here.

12       Q.   Do you know what those machine-guns were positioned on?

13       A.   They were placed on the ground.  There were some defences around

14    them.

15       Q.   What did the defence consist of, the shield?

16       A.   Sand.

17       Q.   Do you remember whether there were any sacks there?

18       A.   Yes.  They were sacks with gravel and sand inside, sandbags, in

19    other words.

20       Q.   You said you heard the shooting after midnight.

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Where were you during the shooting?

23       A.   In Room 1.

24       Q.   And your brothers?

25       A.   Also in Room 1.

Page 9547

 1       Q.   Is that the room with the bars on the doors?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what you were able to see

 4    from that room?

 5       A.   I could see the compound and right up to the scales, the weighing

 6    machine.

 7       Q.   You said "the weighing machine."  Could you show us on the sketch

 8    where that machine was?  Could you show us on the ELMO?  Can you see it on

 9    this sketch?

10       A.   This is where the weighing device was.

11       Q.   Could you please --

12            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Your Honour --

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.

14            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  [Previous translation continues] ... my learned

15    friend, but to assist the Court, because the machine-guns had been marked

16    with the sign "X" and also the weighing machine with the sign "X," it

17    could be differentiated by some other letter.  Thank you, Your Honour.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right.  I

19    thought it was a "Y," actually, perhaps a plus or a "Y."  I don't know

20    whether the witness is able to do that.  In any event, there should be a

21    clear distinction.

22            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Maybe you could put "X1" there.  Witness, do you remember whether

24    there was a hut next to that weighing machine?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9548

 1       Q.   Can you recollect whether the Keraterm compound was lit that

 2    evening?

 3       A.   They were only two lampposts that were working.

 4       Q.   Do you mean pillars with a lamp on top?

 5       A.   Yes, yes.

 6       Q.   And how many were there within the Keraterm compound?

 7       A.   There were four or five, but only two were functioning and the

 8    light was poor.

 9       Q.   So that evening, can you remember when the shooting started?

10       A.   After midnight, and it was with interruptions.

11       Q.   Do you recollect whether the light was later intensified in the

12    Keraterm compound?

13       A.   Yes.  A generator with floodlights arrived, and I know that this

14    floodlight had a stand, and it was placed there close to Room 3.

15       Q.   So before that floodlight was positioned, had the shooting already

16    started?  Did you hear moans or screams?  Did you see anything?

17       A.   I did.  We heard screams.

18       Q.   Were you watching from Room 1 what was going on in the compound?

19       A.   I couldn't see Room 3.

20       Q.   But were you looking out into the compound?

21       A.   Yes.  I could see the compound.

22       Q.   Could you see the machine-guns from your room?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Did you see the machine-gun from which fire was opened on Room 3?

25       A.   I did not.

Page 9549

 1       Q.   Why?

 2       A.   Because I couldn't see the machine-gun shooting, but I did see the

 3    machine-gun.  It was next to hut 1, and it was close to Room 3.

 4       Q.   Do you see it from your room?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Did you see anyone in the compound?

 7       A.   I did not.

 8       Q.   Were there soldiers in the compound?

 9       A.   Yes, they were, but they had all gone to -- towards Room 3, and

10    there was a guard at the gates.

11       Q.   Did you see them move?

12       A.   You mean the soldiers?  Yes, I did.

13       Q.   Did you notice Zoran Zigic then?

14       A.   No, I did not, because I was able to walk around during the day

15    and during the night.

16       Q.   How long did this shooting go on for?

17       A.   For about two or three hours, with breaks.

18       Q.   Did you leave your room in the morning?

19       A.   I did.

20       Q.   What time could that have been?

21       A.   Around 6.00 a.m.

22       Q.   Was your room locked?

23       A.   Yes, it was.

24       Q.   Who unlocked the room?  Do you remember?

25       A. [redacted]

Page 9550

 1       Q.   After you left your room, what did you see?

 2       A.   I saw a lot of bodies and wounded people.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, excuse me for

 4    interrupting you.  How much more time, roughly, do you need to complete

 5    your examination-in-chief?

 6            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we've been working

 7    for an hour and a half.  Another hour, I'm sure.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then.  I think it's

 9    time for a break.  So we're now going to have a half-hour break.

10                          --- Recess taken at 10.55 a.m.

11                          --- On resuming at 11.39 a.m.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

13            Witness DD/1, are you comfortable?

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As you can see, Judge Fouad Riad

16    has joined us.  We knew yesterday that he wouldn't be here at the

17    beginning.  Just to let you know that he's with us now.

18            Mr. Deretic, there appears to be a problem with the sketch, the

19    model.

20            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence of

21    Mr. Zigic found during the break that the sketch we presented is really

22    not good enough.  The Witness B [as interpreted], who was a direct

23    participant in everything that happened in Keraterm, he was there, so we

24    think that during his testimony we should have a model of Keraterm here so

25    that he can present to the Court all the facts he has been questioned

Page 9551

 1    about, and especially the facts that I intend to question him about now.

 2            For example, just to clarify this a bit, one of my questions was

 3    that the witness should say whether he saw the weigh hut.  The witness

 4    marked a building here and said what he did, that the scales should be

 5    around here.  But if shown a model, he would certainly be able to clarify

 6    all the remaining questions about the position of the scales, of the

 7    machine-guns, of the place where Car had to run in circles, and so on and

 8    so forth, and some of these things cannot be seen here on this sketch.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  A remark of a

10    general nature first.  I think for things to flow properly, you need to

11    communicate well with the Chamber.  The question raised by Mr. Stojanovic

12    before we began is a good example of this.  Ms. Kate Mackintosh is the

13    legal officer of the Chamber for this case - you see her here - and

14    whenever you have a problem with the Chamber, contact Ms. Kate Mackintosh,

15    even if you think that it is a question that need not be raised.  In this

16    way, things can be organised and clarified so that we can function well.

17    And this also applies equally to the Defence and to the Prosecution.  This

18    is something that you should have availed yourself of, that is, the

19    assistance of Ms. Kate Mackintosh.  Even if you fear that the question may

20    be a stupid one, put it to Ms. Kate Mackintosh.  After that, we will see.

21            So the problem we have is the following:  A model, as you know, is

22    not something we can put in our pockets, so though many people are working

23    here, this has to be organised, because the model is guarded; it needs to

24    be carried in because it's heavy.  So we can't provide it immediately.  So

25    what I think we should do is the following:  You continue with your

Page 9552

 1    examination-in-chief with the instruments and tools that you have

 2    available now.  Then we will have a lunch break.  You have already told us

 3    that you need more or less an hour to finish.  Yes, an hour and a quarter

 4    maybe.  Then we will reach the time of the lunch break.  During the lunch

 5    break, the model will be assembled, but as you know, it doesn't have legs

 6    of its own, so it has to be carried in.  And after that, either you will

 7    have questions to clarify, with the help of the model, and you will do so,

 8    or you may not have other questions and we can begin with the

 9    cross-examination.

10            But I would like to hear the Prosecutor regarding this proposition

11    of mine.

12            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.  In fact, I was thinking

13    I was not going to use the model, but I was going to use another

14    photograph of the Keraterm camp which we have already admitted into

15    evidence.  If I may say the number, it's 3/27.  So even if the model is

16    not there, the Prosecution would be able to ask questions pertaining to

17    the evidence with regard to this witness through another photograph.

18            I also state, Your Honour, that as the Keraterm case, the case is

19    proceeding in Courtroom I.  The model may be there.  That's subject to

20    correction, Your Honour.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you very much for

22    your suggestion, but I think that it is up to the Defence counsel to

23    present the testimony as it wishes, and I think working with the

24    photograph is a way of having something tendered into evidence.  But if

25    you have a model, it is easier to indicate things and this is registered

Page 9553












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13   and English transcripts.













Page 9554

 1    in the transcript.  We should have all the models here of the camps,

 2    because, after all, they are tools that we need to use, but we have to use

 3    them well.

 4            Mr. Deretic, have you any response to Mr. Waidyaratne's

 5    suggestion?

 6            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  We agree

 7    absolutely with everything you have said.  Evidently, we overestimated our

 8    witness's abilities, because we thought the sketch would be quite

 9    sufficient for him to answer with precision the questions put to him.

10    However, this was evidently not the case.  We regret this, but now we

11    feel, for the sake of the Trial Chamber and our learned friends, it would

12    be necessary to have the model brought in here so that the witness, who

13    was an eyewitness to all this, can answer all the questions I put to him.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but Mr. Deretic, you have

15    to count on another difficulty.  Because this witness is a protected

16    witness, with facial distortion, it's rather difficult for him to get up

17    and point at the model because he might thereby disclose his identity, or

18    we could always go into closed session for that.

19            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, precisely so.  We

20    have thought about this, and we will ask for a closed session in that part

21    of our examination.

22            I said that I would need an hour, but I think it will be a little

23    less.  In that way, we can make up for the time lost to do with the model.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I saw Mr. Waidyaratne, who was

25    about to get on his feet.

Page 9555

 1            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just for a

 2    clarification.  If I understood you correctly, Mr. Deretic will complete

 3    his examination after the model is brought.  Then thereafter, I will be

 4    permitted to cross-examine.  Is that the position?  Thank you, Your

 5    Honour.  Thank you.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Not necessarily,

 7    Mr. Waidyaratne, because once we have the model in the courtroom,

 8    Mr. Deretic may need additional explanations with the help of the model.

 9    So in any event, you will cross-examine after the lunch break.  That is

10    certain.

11            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, we must proceed,

13    otherwise, this will go on forever.

14            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

15            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Quite so, Mr. President.  Thank you

16    very much.  I will have only a few questions to put with the model here,

17    and I will be very quick about it.

18            If you will permit me, I will now continue examining the witness.

19       Q.   Witness DD/1, when you left your room in the morning, you said

20    this was at about 6.00 a.m.

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Did you see a truck?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   What kind of truck was it?

25       A.   It was from Autotransport.  It was a big truck.

Page 9556

 1       Q.   What do you mean by "Autotransport"?

 2       A.   Well, that was a company called Autotransport in Prijedor.

 3       Q.   And how do you know that the truck was from Autotransport?

 4       A.   Because there was lettering on the door.

 5       Q.   Can you show exactly where you saw this truck in the Keraterm

 6    compound?

 7       A.   In front of Room 3.  It came in backwards.

 8       Q.   Was someone standing in front of the truck?

 9       A.   I don't know.

10       Q.   Did you see the driver of the truck?

11       A.   Yes, I did.

12       Q.   Did you know him?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Was the driver wearing a military uniform or civilian clothes?

15       A.   Civilian clothes.

16            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if possible, I would

17    like to ask for us to go into closed session again because of the next

18    several questions I have to ask.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Let us go into private

20    session for a moment.

21                          [Private session]

22    [redacted]

23    [redacted]

24    [redacted]

25    [redacted]

Page 9557













13    Page 9557 redacted – private session













Page 9558

 1    [redacted]

 2    [redacted]

 3    [redacted]

 4    [redacted]

 5    [redacted]

 6    [redacted]

 7    [redacted]

 8    [redacted]

 9    [redacted]

10    [redacted]

11    [redacted]

12    [redacted]

13    [redacted]

14    [redacted]

15    [redacted]

16    [redacted]

17    [redacted]

18    [redacted]

19                          [Open session]

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may continue, Mr. Deretic,

21    please.

22            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23       Q.   Witness, would you be so kind and explain, illustrate as clearly

24    as you can, how many bodies you saw, how many - if you know, of course -

25    you loaded onto the truck, whether there were wounded people among them,

Page 9559

 1    what happened to them, whether anyone provided any kind of assistance to

 2    them, and so on.

 3       A.   All I know is that there were a lot of wounded people and a lot of

 4    dead people, and with my own hands, I loaded the wounded and the dead onto

 5    the truck.

 6            From that day on, I couldn't bear to eat with my hands.  My

 7    brother put food in my mouth because I was covered with blood and there

 8    was blood running down my arms.

 9       Q.   Do you know where this truck was taken to?

10       A.   No, I don't know.

11       Q.   And was that truck driven away by the same person who was standing

12    next to the truck?

13       A.   Yes.  It was the driver, in civilian clothes, who came.

14       Q.   Can you please, because almost eight or nine years have elapsed in

15    the meantime, can you recall how long the loading of these people who are,

16    unfortunately, dead, lasted?

17       A.   About an hour.

18       Q.   Witness DD/1, I would now like to take you back to the time when

19    you heard the gunfire at night.  On that occasion, while the shooting was

20    going on, did you hear from any one of the people in the Rooms 1, 2, or

21    3?  Did you hear anyone mention Zoran Zigic?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Tell me, please:  Do you remember whether the truck returned to

24    the Keraterm compound?

25       A.   Yes, it did.

Page 9560

 1       Q.   Was that on the same day?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Can you remember what time it was?

 4       A.   In the afternoon.

 5       Q.   Do you know what happened next to the truck?

 6       A.   Yes, I know.

 7       Q.   Would you tell us, please, what happened?

 8       A.   The soldiers ordered my brother to wash the truck and scrub it

 9    with a brush, and the truck was full of blood.

10       Q.   How long did this take?

11       A.   Well, about an hour, an hour and a quarter, about an hour and 15

12    minutes, because it was being scrubbed with a brush.  The blood had become

13    dry and it was caked in blood.

14       Q.   What happened to the truck afterwards?

15       A.   The truck was driven away somewhere.  I don't know where.

16       Q.   Witness DD/1, until when were you in Keraterm?

17       A.   Until mid-August.

18       Q.   After this, were you taken somewhere or were you released?

19       A.   I was transferred to the Trnopolje camp.

20       Q.   And until the time you were transferred to Trnopolje, but after

21    this event, did you ever see Zoran Zigic in Keraterm?

22       A.   No.  As I said, I saw him in mid-July and then I didn't see him

23    any more.

24       Q.   Would you be so kind as to repeat when you left Keraterm?

25       A.   In mid-August.

Page 9561

 1       Q.   And tell me:  How long was this after this event that you have

 2    just described in Keraterm, after the massacre in Keraterm?

 3       A.   I don't remember.

 4       Q.   How long did you spend in Trnopolje?

 5       A.   Fifteen days.

 6       Q.   And did you see Zoran Zigic there at any time?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   And one more question about this topic.  During your stay in

 9    Keraterm, did you ever see Zoran Zigic beating people up or killing

10    someone?

11       A.   No.  I was always in the compound.  I could wander around at will.

12       Q.   Did you see any excesses committed by him, apart from the incident

13    with Car?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   Witness, do you know about the contents of an article published in

16    Euroblic?

17       A.   Yes.  I've read it.

18       Q.   When was this?

19       A.   On the 21st.

20       Q.   Was it last week?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And does this article refer to the trial of Dusko Sikirica, Damir

23    Dosen, and Dragan Kolundzija before this Tribunal?  Can you remember?

24       A.   I don't remember.

25       Q.   Please, you said that you had read the article.

Page 9562

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   The article mentions Witness A, a Muslim from Prijedor.

 3            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  I object, Your Honour.  Now the counsel is

 4    giving evidence.  He's referring to the article.  He's saying the article

 5    refers to A, Witness A.  I don't know who it is, which this is article is,

 6    and the witness has already said he remembers -- he knows about an

 7    article.  He says that he didn't know anything about that article, so

 8    which I think my learned friend should not proceed with.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.

10            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, unfortunately I have

11    only been here for five months, and during that time I have been reading

12    the transcripts and applying the same methods as the Prosecution.  They

13    have shown to witnesses articles which the witnesses had never read, and I

14    have here with me last Wednesday's newspaper, and I know the witness has

15    read them, and I just wanted to ask him, within the context of the

16    question so far, a few questions, for the sake of clarification, if I may,

17    Mr. President.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, has the Prosecutor

19    got that article?

20            Mr. Waidyaratne?

21            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  No, Your Honour.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] He must have a copy and so must

23    we, even though we need not read everything.

24            Something else:  If the witness has told you that he doesn't

25    remember the article, he has read it but he doesn't remember it, then the

Page 9563

 1    next step would be to show it to the witness to remind him; otherwise

 2    there's no point in asking him questions when he said that he doesn't

 3    remember.  So that is the objection of the Prosecutor.

 4            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness

 5    said -- he didn't say that he cannot remember the article.  The witness

 6    said that he doesn't remember mention being made of Sikirica, Dosen, and

 7    Kolundzija, but the witness said that he had read the article.  I would be

 8    much more specific than I have been so far.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Please go ahead, then.

10            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

11       Q.   So the witness that was mentioned under his pseudonym said in that

12    article that Zoran Zigic forced Car to run around the compound, after

13    which he beat him; is that correct?

14       A.   No.  Zoran Zigic did not force him to run around the compound.

15       Q.   Also in that article, it says --

16            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Your Honour, I object to this line of

17    questioning.  Still I don't know what from Mr. Deretic is quoting or as to

18    who this witness is.  He's referring to some -- his question is:  "So the

19    witness that was mentioned under his pseudonym ..."  We don't know as to

20    who this witness is, as to from where this is taken, and as to whether

21    this witness knows anything about this matter.  It's not clear from the

22    question, Your Honour, if you see.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Has the Prosecution got a copy

24    of that article?  I think you already told me that they do not.

25            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we don't know who

Page 9564

 1    that person is.  We just know the person from the pseudonym appearing in

 2    the article.  It's an article appearing last Wednesday, and we got hold of

 3    it yesterday.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but have you provided the

 5    Prosecution with a copy of that article?

 6            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] No, I have not, Your Honour.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps that might be important,

 8    to provide them with an article.

 9            JUDGE WALD:  Is it in English or B/C/S?  That's all.  You must

10    know that.

11            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] In Serbian.  I have the original

12    newspaper, in the original.  It was issued last Wednesday.  And of course,

13    we are ready to provide the Chamber and the Prosecution with copies and

14    even to tender it into evidence.  Mr. President, may I be allowed to show

15    the witness this article and allow him to read it and to answer a few

16    points that were touched upon during the day?  It's nothing new.  Because

17    we are trying to prove in this way what actually happened in Keraterm and

18    the kinds of reports that are appearing in the media.  We're just asking

19    whether the allegations contained in the article are true or not.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Wait a minute.  We'll see.

21            Mr. Waidyaratne, do you need the article?

22            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Your Honour, first of all, now I will base my

23    objection on a different way.  Mr. Deretic is trying to -- in fact, the

24    question and answer was -- now it's not on the screen.  He's asking this

25    witness to comment about a witness who has given evidence in another case

Page 9565

 1    and which is reported in these papers, as to whether it's true or not, and

 2    which, I think, during the Prosecution case, which was resolved, saying

 3    that we should not refer to other witnesses' evidence and ask them for any

 4    opinion as to whether it was true or not.

 5            If I'm correct, Your Honour, I would give you the line and the

 6    time.  It's at page 47, and it says:  "Does this article refer to the

 7    trial of Dusko Sikirica, Damir Dosen, Kolundzija before the Tribunal?  Can

 8    you remember?"

 9            Further down it says, page 49, line 2:  "So the witness that was

10    mentioned under his pseudonym said in that article that Zoran Zigic forced

11    Car to run around the compound, after which he beat him; is that

12    correct?"  Answer:  "No.  Zoran Zigic did not force him to run around the

13    compound."

14            He's quoting some evidence from another trial and he's asking this

15    witness to comment on that.  That's my objection too.  Thank you, Your

16    Honour.  And we would like to have the article too, if a copy could be

17    given to us.  Thank you, Your Honour.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And the copy that you would like

19    to have, Mr. Waidyaratne, do you want it now or after the break?

20            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  After the break, Your Honour.  Thank you.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So during the break.

22            Mr. Deretic, you understand now the objection of the Prosecution.

23    We are not here to make a confrontation between two different witnesses.

24    As we do in our system, when one witness says one thing and another,

25    another, we bring both and confront them.  That is not what we do here.

Page 9566

 1    You have a witness here and you have to put the question to him, and then

 2    the Chamber will assess the value of one witness and the value of

 3    another.  You are not able to confront the two.  Do you understand that?

 4    Please proceed.

 5            I think Judge Wald has a comment to make.

 6            JUDGE WALD:  I just want to register my disagreement, I think,

 7    with that.  It seems to me that you can ask a question based upon an

 8    article in a newspaper.  If it just said, "It has been reported that a

 9    witness, you know, said such-and-such," I think that it's, at least in my

10    view, valid to ask the person, "There has been a report in the newspaper

11    that Zigic made Car run around in a circle.  Is that in accord with your

12    observation?"  And the witness can then answer according to his

13    observation.  I don't see that you can have a system whereby you're not

14    ever allowed to refer to a different version simply because the different

15    version may have emanated from a former trial.  But I simply want to

16    register my view.  It seems to me, Mr. Deretic, you can ask the question,

17    actually get around this by asking it, you know, directly again:  In your

18    observation, did Car -- was Car forced to run around the Tribunal and get

19    away from all this -- or run around the ...

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  We are not in

21    disagreement, nevertheless.  I think that you mustn't ask the witness

22    whether that other witness is right or not, but you should say, "That

23    witness said such-and-such.  What is your version?"  That is the way you

24    should put the question.  "What is the truth, according to you?"  But not

25    challenge the other witness:  "Did he lie?  Did he tell the truth?"  So

Page 9567

 1    actually, we are fully in agreement.  You can use that information on the

 2    same basis that a counsel is allowed to say, "I assume that.  Am I

 3    right?"?  So it's something like that.  I have this information from the

 4    newspaper and what is true, rather than asking whether that other witness

 5    told the truth or not.  So I think we quite agree.  So please proceed.

 6            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I had no

 7    intention to comment on the article, as my learned friend has said.  I

 8    just wanted to put a question to the witness in that connection, and I'll

 9    do so now.

10       Q.   The article report says literally that:  "Zoran Zigic forced Car,

11    carrying a heavy machine-gun over his shoulder, to run in a circle while a

12    certain Duca hit him with a truncheon which had a metal ball attached to

13    it at the end."

14       A.   Zoran Zigic did not force him to run in a circle.  I can assert

15    that with certainty.  It wasn't Zoran Zigic who forced him but a group of

16    soldiers and a group of regular policemen.  When they caught him up there

17    at Brdo, they forced him to run around immediately.

18       Q.   Do you know Dusko Knezevic, known as Duca?

19       A.   I do.

20       Q.   Was he the person who had this truncheon with a metal ball on the

21    end of it on that occasion?

22       A.   I don't know.

23            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Two more questions if I may,

24    Mr. President.

25       Q.   The article goes on to say that:  "Zigic, after that, took a

Page 9568

 1    bottle of mineral water of one litre and ordered Car to take off his pants

 2    and to sit on the bottle, and Zigic was forcing him onto the bottle."

 3       A.   That is not true.

 4       Q.   Can you comment on this?

 5       A.   I can.  I know that that is not true.

 6       Q.   How far away were you from the site, from the spot where the event

 7    occurred?  Though I think I've already asked you when I asked you about

 8    Car running around in a circle.

 9       A.   I was about 15 metres away.  So I saw it all.  I saw everything.

10    I was there in the compound.  I was outside when Car was brought in in a

11    police van.

12       Q.   One more question.  Witness A recounted that he watched as, in

13    July 1992, soldiers mounted two machine-guns on school desks in front of

14    the room in which men were locked in from a part of the Prijedor

15    municipality of Brdo.

16            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  I object to this question, Your Honour.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.

18            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  On what basis?  I don't know whether my learned

19    friend is referring to the article again or the witness who has given

20    evidence in another trial, because this witness's question was it was not

21    so, it was not.  It was on the ground and there were sandbags.

22            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Could my learned friend hear me out

23    first, please.  I haven't finished.

24            Could you wait for the question and then object.  I haven't

25    finished.  You don't know what I'm going to ask before I've finished

Page 9569

 1    reading the quotation.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Deretic has just told

 3    you that he's quoting from an article, after which he will ask his

 4    question.

 5            But perhaps you should make it quite clear where you begin the

 6    quote and where you end the quote.

 7            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] So the quote begins now:  "The

 9    Witness A recounted that he watched as, in July 1992, soldiers mounted two

10    machine-guns on school desks in front of the room in which men were locked

11    in who came from a part of the Prijedor municipality called Brdo.  The

12    detainees were not given food or water."

13       Q.   So my first question to you, Witness, is:  Were the machine-guns

14    mounted on school desks and were there any school desks there anyway?

15       A.   No.  The machine-guns were not placed on school desks.

16       Q.   And my second question:  Were the detainees given food or not, as

17    you have already told us?

18       A.   They were.  I gave them food and water.  I was in charge of both

19    food and water.

20            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] And finally, Mr. President --

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Deretic.

22            Witness DD/1, you said the machine-guns were not placed on school

23    desks.  Where were they placed, then?

24       A.   One was facing towards the Banja Luka road that I have shown, and

25    another one was between number 3.  I know that it was put there because I

Page 9570

 1    saw it there and I was right next to it.

 2            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

 3       Q.   On what?  On what?  On what was it placed?

 4       A.   There was a shield with sandbags, and it was placed on that pile

 5    of sandbags.

 6            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] My last question, Mr. President.

 7       Q.   Witness DD/1, why have you decided to testify for Zoran Zigic in

 8    The Hague Tribunal, a person who has been suspected of war crimes against

 9    civilians, in view of everything that you have lived through and in view

10    of your ethnicity?

11       A.   Because Zoran Zigic helped me.  Had it not been for him, I would

12    be in the ground, both myself and my brothers.  I know that Zoran never

13    said anything offensive to me or my brothers.  He gave me food.  He never

14    hit me.  It never even occurred to him to hit me.  And I was in charge of

15    food and water.  I too was beaten.  I too am a victim.  They would beat me

16    sometimes for three hours at night.  You wouldn't even know who was doing

17    it.  They put me in a barrel that was full of water.  My head was under

18    the water and my legs on top.

19       Q.   Did this happen in the presence of Zoran?

20       A.   No.  When Zoran Zigic was there, it never happened.

21            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very much.

22    I have no more questions for this witness.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Deretic.

24            So I think this is a good time for our lunch break.  The Registry

25    will take care of the model, and if Mr. Deretic has a few more additional

Page 9571

 1    questions with the model, then he will do so.  And I think that

 2    Mr. Deretic will make copies of this article and provide them to the

 3    Prosecution.

 4            So we're now going to have a 50-minute lunch break.

 5                          --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

 6                          --- On resuming at 1.25 p.m.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

 8            Mr. Deretic, where are we now in relation to what we granted you?

 9            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, unfortunately, for

10    technical reasons, or at least that's what we have been told, the

11    technical personnel were unable to bring in the model, and I think that

12    the Prosecution does not object to this, because it is their exhibit.  So

13    we still would insist on this, however, if there is a technical

14    possibility of at least bringing it in tomorrow morning before the start

15    of the session, since we have another witness tomorrow who could also

16    testify to the same circumstances.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me.  Go ahead,

18    Mr. Deretic.

19            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have just

20    finished.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you are telling me that you

22    don't need it for this witness?

23            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, technically it is not

24    possible to have the model here now, so there would be no point in

25    insisting on it.  We don't know how to solve this technically, and time is

Page 9572

 1    running.  That's why I said this.  We would like to have this witness

 2    testify about those circumstances.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So, Mr. Deretic mentioned the

 4    non-objection on the part of the Prosecution.

 5            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Your Honour, we do not object to the question

 6    whether the model could be brought to Court and he could be examined, but

 7    may I respectfully say to Your Honours that I would be cross-examining the

 8    witness with regard to his ability to show certain places that he has

 9    faltered in certain areas I'm going to cross-examine.  So therefore, I

10    don't think Mr. Deretic will be -- will have an opportunity to re-examine

11    him with regard to that, will have an opportunity to re-examine, but I

12    would cross-examine with regard to the certain places that he has shown

13    and what he has pointed out in the exhibit.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.

15            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] It is quite clear to the Defence

16    counsel of Mr. Zigic.  However, it would be much more useful if we had the

17    model here now, while my learned friend is cross-examining the witness

18    about these circumstances.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But in any event, Mr. Deretic,

20    it seems to me that you will always have a chance during your

21    re-examination to get additional information.

22            But we shall continue with the cross-examination of this witness

23    by the Prosecution.  I think it is Mr. Waidyaratne.

24            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.  Your Honour, may

25    I be permitted to go into a brief private session, as I would be asking

Page 9573

 1    certain questions which may affect his identity.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Let's go into private

 3    session, please.

 4                          [Private session]

 5    [redacted]

 6    [redacted]

 7    [redacted]

 8    [redacted]

 9    [redacted]

10    [redacted]

11    [redacted]

12    [redacted]

13    [redacted]

14    [redacted]

15    [redacted]

16    [redacted]

17    [redacted]

18    [redacted]

19    [redacted]

20    [redacted]

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22    [redacted]

23    [redacted]

24    [redacted]

25    [redacted]

Page 9574













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Page 9580

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 2    [redacted]

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 6    [redacted]

 7    [redacted]

 8    [redacted]

 9    [redacted]

10    [redacted]

11    [redacted]

12    [redacted]

13    [redacted]

14    [redacted]

15    [redacted]

16    [redacted]

17    [redacted]

18    [redacted]

19                          [Open session]

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that we are in public

21    session.  You may continue, Mr. Waidyaratne.

22            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23       Q.   Now, the day that you were arrested, do you remember that day when

24    the Serb soldiers came to your house?

25       A.   Yes, I remember it.

Page 9581

 1       Q.   What is the date, and which month?

 2       A.   Oh, dear.  A long time has passed.  I can't remember the date.  I

 3    know that we were taken away on the 30th of May, 1992.

 4       Q.   Were you taken to Jove Djukice Street in Donja Puharska?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Witness, please don't mention any of the names of your brothers if

 7    you answer the questions, but you can answer.  Where were you taken to?

 8       A.   To the Omarska camp.

 9       Q.   Before you were taken to the Omarska camp, the Serb soldiers asked

10    you, your other brothers, two brothers, to go to a certain gathering point

11    in the Jove Djukice Street; is that correct?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Where were you put into the buses?

14       A. [redacted], in front of our house, because there were quite

15    a lot of us and there were a number of buses, and they blindfolded -- or

16    rather, we had to keep our eyes closed and our heads down so that we

17    wouldn't see where they were driving us.

18       Q.   Were you beaten when you were getting into the buses?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   With what, and who beat you?

21       A.   Well, the soldiers.  I don't know their names.  It was the

22    soldiers who came from Pakrac.  And you can still see scars on my chin.

23    That's how they beat me.  That was when they rounded us up.

24       Q.   You said that from there you were taken to Omarska and for around

25    two hours you were in Omarska; is that correct?

Page 9582

 1       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes.

 2       Q.   The two brothers of yours were with you in the bus when you were

 3    in Omarska; am I correct?

 4       A.   Yes.  Yes.

 5       Q.   And in Omarska, did you see any detainees of Muslim ethnicity in

 6    Omarska?

 7       A.   Yes, I did.

 8       Q.   Where did you see them?

 9       A.   Well, I saw them in Omarska, in the compound, lying down or

10    sitting down.

11       Q.   Then from Omarska you were brought to Keraterm?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Were you searched and beaten when you were brought to Keraterm?

14       A.   No.  I was beaten only once on the bus and when we were rounded

15    up.

16       Q.   Were you searched when you got down from the bus at Keraterm?

17       A.   Yes, we were.

18       Q.   During that time, were you beaten?

19       A.   Not me.  I wasn't.

20       Q.   Were the others beaten?

21       A.   Yes, others were.

22       Q.   Now, Witness, did you know Keraterm well before you went there?

23    Have you seen Keraterm, this place that you were taken to, before this

24    instance?

25       A.   Yes, but I never entered the compound before.  I would pass by on

Page 9583

 1    my way to Banja Luka by car and I would see it.  I didn't know that this

 2    was Keraterm.

 3       Q.   Now, if I may say, it's on the Banja Luka-Prijedor main road; you

 4    could see it from the main road, this place which you call Keraterm?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Anybody who was going on the road could see that clearly.  Thank

 7    you.

 8       A.   Yes, that's right.

 9       Q.   Now, you said in your direct examination you were sent to Room 1;

10    is that correct?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Or were you sent to Room 2?

13       A.   Yes.  No.  First I was in Room 2, up to my questioning.

14       Q.   That's right.

15       A.   After that, in Room 1.

16       Q.   So your position is:  When you arrived, you were sent to Room 1?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Is it Room 2?

19       A.   Yes, 2.

20       Q.   After the questioning, you were sent to Room 2?

21       A.   After the questioning, I was sent to number 1.

22       Q.   Were your brothers, two brothers, with you?

23       A.   Yes, they were, up to the questioning.  When they were questioned,

24    then they were sent to number 1.

25       Q.   Were they questioned at the same time that you were questioned?

Page 9584

 1       A.   No.  I was the last one to be questioned.

 2       Q.   Were they questioned on the same date?

 3       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes, they were.

 4       Q.   So they were more or less with you in Room 1 and Room 2; am I

 5    correct?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Now, Witness, when you were in Room 2, did you see Car, the person

 8    by the name Car?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Did you see a person by the name of Emsud Bahonjic in Room 2?

11       A.   I don't know him.

12       Q.   Did you see a person by the name of Samir Sistek?

13       A.   There were a lot of people there.  I can't remember now.  I know

14    that there were a lot of us in that room.

15       Q.   Samir Sistek was also nicknamed Coachman, if I may help you.  Does

16    that recall?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Because you spoke about Car, I need to ask you this question:

19    When you were in Room 2, did you at any time see the person by the name of

20    Car in the Room 2?

21       A.   I was in Room 1 at that time, when Car was brought in.

22       Q.   Do you know, when Car was brought in, as to where he was kept; in

23    which room?

24       A.   Number 2, and I was in number 1.

25       Q.   So other than the time that you saw him beaten by the soldiers,

Page 9585

 1    and Zoran Zigic once, you didn't see Car when he was in Room 2?

 2       A.   No, I didn't.

 3       Q.   Just to clarify, you said that you don't know the person by the

 4    name of Emsud Bahonjic; is that correct?

 5       A.   Yes, that's correct.  I don't know him.

 6       Q.   Even in camp you didn't see him?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Now, Witness, you said that you were able to --

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.

10            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to the direct

11    question of my learned colleague as to whether he knew Emsud Bahonjic, the

12    witness said he did not know him.  After that, the Prosecutor asked

13    whether he saw that man.  We object because the witness is -- attempts are

14    being made to confuse the witness.  I think that questions should be put

15    quite clearly and unambiguously.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne.

17            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  The question is -- I was not trying to mislead

18    the witness, but because he said that he didn't know, I wanted to know as

19    to whether he got to know him subsequently in the camp and whether he knew

20    him after that.  That was my question.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Continue, please.

22            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23       Q.   Were you able to go to Room 2?

24       A.   Yes, I was.

25       Q.   During that time, did you see any persons by the side of the door?

Page 9586

 1       A.   Well, there were quite a few of them.  I don't know their names

 2    now because there were people from everywhere.

 3       Q.   Did you see Car during that time?

 4       A.   Yes, I did.

 5       Q.   That was in Room 2; is that correct?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Where was he seated?  Where was he?  Where did you see him?

 8       A.   In the corner.  That's where I saw him sitting down.

 9       Q.   What was his condition?

10       A.   Well, he was a bit battered, but only when he first came in.

11       Q.   No.  I'm talking about the time that you saw him by the corner.

12    Which corner are you talking about?  In the room 2?  Which corner?  Is it

13    by the door?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   Where?

16       A.   In the corner, at the bottom.  Because I brought water to them and

17    distributed food.

18       Q.   The bottom -- in the corner at the bottom.  What you mean is to

19    say -- is it right at the end of the room or was it at the entrance of

20    the --

21       A.   No, no, no.  At the entrance to the room, in the corner.

22       Q.   Did you see any other persons injured next to Car?

23       A.   No, I didn't.

24       Q.   So now your question is that you saw Car in Room 2 --

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9587

 1       Q.   -- in the side of the room, at the entrance.  Is that correct?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Now, you mentioned about the beating of Car by soldiers.  Was it

 4    the day that you thought that Car was brought to the camp?

 5       A.   Yes.  It was when he was brought in a police van.

 6       Q.   And how long after that was he beaten?

 7       A.   Well, I found him between the 6th and the 7th.  I found him dead.

 8       Q.   Now, you mentioned the dates 6th and 7th.  I'm sorry, Witness,

 9    please, from the day you saw him being brought to the camp and you saw him

10    being beaten; is that correct?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   After how long after that beating did Car die?

13       A.   I don't know.

14       Q.   Was he there for many days in the camp?

15       A.   No, not for many days.  He succumbed.  When they came back from

16    the funeral of Zoran Karlica, I heard them call out his name.  They called

17    out --

18       Q.   Witness, I'm sorry to have interrupted you.  From the time -- how

19    many days you can count -- say, for instance, was he there for a week?

20       A.   Three or four days.

21       Q.   Now, you mentioned about the beating by the soldiers and Zoran

22    Zigic of Car.  Where were you when you saw this beating?

23       A.   Well, I saw when Car was brought in for the first time in a police

24    van, and I saw that Zoran Zigic only kicked him once in the bottom.

25       Q.   Where were you when you saw this?

Page 9588

 1       A.   In front of Room 1.  They'd let me out.

 2       Q.   And how many soldiers -- who were the other soldiers who were

 3    there?  Did you recognise any of them?

 4       A.   Well, I did, yes.  I recognised only Cupo Banovic.  I don't know

 5    his proper first name.  He wore earrings.  He had long hair.

 6       Q.   Did you see Duca?

 7       A.   I don't remember seeing Duca.

 8       Q.   Did you see Zoran Zigic giving Car a machine-gun to carry?

 9       A.   No, I didn't, because I know that as soon as Car got out, the

10    soldiers told him to put the machine-gun on his shoulder and run in a

11    circle, because I was standing in the compound, smoking a cigarette, while

12    Car was running in a circle.

13       Q.   Now, did you see Zoran Zigic give Car the machine-gun to put on

14    his shoulders and run?

15       A.   No, I didn't see that Zigic put the machine-gun on him.

16       Q.   Did you see anybody asking Car to dismantle the machine-gun?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Did you see anybody asking another person by the name of Emsud, a

19    detainee, to come out and help Car to put the dismantled machine-gun

20    back?

21       A.   I don't remember.

22       Q.   So, Witness, you didn't see -- did you see Car dismantling the

23    machine-gun?

24       A.   No, because I went to fetch the food.

25       Q.   So you were not there right throughout this incident?

Page 9589

 1       A.   Only when Car was brought in.  I was there then.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  Was this raining during that time?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, did you know a person by the name of -- a

 5    detainee by the name of Hrdzic?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   An academic, a professor?

 8       A.   No.  I didn't know him either.

 9       Q.   Witness, now please tell us a little bit more in detail as to what

10    exactly did the guards ask you.  Who asked you to distribute the food?

11       A.   Yes.  [redacted] told me to distribute the food and water, and I

12    was in charge of both the water and the food.

13       Q.   Now, what did you give them?  Did you see what food was given to

14    these detainees?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   What was given to them?

17       A.   Two pieces of bread.  There would be beans, rice, potatoes and

18    that sort of thing.

19       Q.   Were they ever given more?

20       A.   I did.

21       Q.   If you were able to give more to them, you would have given them?

22       A.   I couldn't because some would eat five times and others didn't get

23    a chance to get one helping.  We were all hungry.  But as much as they

24    gave you, you had to eat.

25       Q.   Now, you say one person would be able to eat five times.  How did

Page 9590

 1    that happen?  Did you give them -- one person five times?  That means ten

 2    slices a day?

 3       A.   No.  No.  This is how it was:  I would distribute the food, and I

 4    know a guy who picked up his food once.  He went off, ate it, and then

 5    lined up again, and he would wait for me to pour the food into his plate

 6    again, and I would give it to him.  Then the other detainees started

 7    cursing me, saying some are eating five times, others don't get a chance

 8    to get food once.

 9       Q.   Did the guards support you or anybody in that sense?

10       A.   They did.

11       Q.   Who?

12       A.   [redacted].  He was good to us.

13       Q.   Now, [redacted]

14    [redacted].  Is that your position?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   About how many detainees were there during the time that you

17    spent -- at a given time?

18       A.   I don't know.  I don't remember.

19       Q.   Approximately.

20       A.   But I know -- there were quite a lot of us.

21       Q.   I don't want to press on with the matter, but approximately could

22    you say a number?

23       A.   No.  I really can't say because I don't know.  I know that there

24    were quite a lot.

25       Q.   How many meals were given to these detainees a day?

Page 9591

 1       A.   Twice.

 2       Q.   From what time to what time?

 3       A.   From 10.00 to 12.00 and from 2.00 to 4.00.  That would be

 4    breakfast and lunch.

 5       Q.   Where were they given this food?  Where did you serve them?

 6       A.   In front of Room 2.  Here, right here in front of Room 2.

 7       Q.   I will come to that.

 8       A.   There was a kitchen there.

 9       Q.   I will come to that.  I will show you the photograph later.

10            Do you know who brought the food to the camp?  Was it cooked in

11    the camp?

12       A.   It was cooked in the camp.  There were cooks there.

13       Q.   Do you know any of those cooks?

14       A.   I don't know.  They were elderly women.

15       Q.   Now, you said about water and that once you went with Zoran Zigic

16    in the minibus to get water.  Do you remember that, in your direct

17    evidence?

18       A.   Yes, I do.

19       Q.   Where did you go to get the water?  How did that come to?  Zoran

20    Zigic asked you to get into the bus, is it?

21       A.   No.  Zoran Zigic asked whether there were two volunteers, and I

22    volunteered and so did my brother Ismet.  And we got into the minibus with

23    Zigic, and we went to fetch the water.  We brought it back, unloaded it,

24    and then we went back to our dormitories.

25       Q.   Where did you go to get the water?

Page 9592

 1       A.   I know the man's name was Faruk.  I don't know his surname.  It's

 2    near the new post office in Prijedor.  Next to the new post office.

 3       Q.   In what was water brought at that instance?

 4       A.   In jerrycans and in barrels.

 5       Q.   How long were you with Zoran Zigic in the minibus when you went to

 6    get this water in Prijedor?

 7       A.   I spent some time with him, maybe an hour, and an hour and half,

 8    because we had to get there and come back, and the water was flowing very

 9    slowly and we had to fill the containers.

10       Q.   At any time did Zoran Zigic ask whether you wanted to go home or

11    whether you should be released?  Did you ask him to help in that?

12       A.   Yes.  He asked me.  He offered to take me home, to have a bath,

13    because there were no bathing facilities.  We got lice and all kinds of

14    things over there.  And Zoran Zigic did ask me whether I wanted him to

15    take me and my brother home for a bath.  I said to Zigic, "Thank you,

16    Zigic, but I don't want to go anywhere from here."

17       Q.   Was Zoran Zigic able to release any person from the camp?  Did you

18    know about that?

19       A.   No, he wasn't.

20       Q.   You are sure that he was unable to release any person from the

21    camp?

22       A.   Well, I don't know that.

23       Q.   Did you hear anything about it in the camp, that he was able to

24    send people home?

25       A.   No, I didn't.

Page 9593












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Page 9594

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.

 2            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, three times my

 3    learned friend is putting the same question to the witness.  I really

 4    think that is not proper.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, if you look

 6    closely, you will see that the three questions differ from one another.

 7            But perhaps, Mr. Waidyaratne, you could move on a little more

 8    quickly.

 9            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Okay.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And whether he knows anything

11    about it, and then you can -- you can ask one-by-one these questions, but

12    please go ahead.

13            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you.  I will do my best, Your Honour.

14       Q.   Now, during this time that you spent with Zoran Zigic in the camp

15    and at the time that you went to get -- did you discuss as to what his

16    function in the camp was?  Did you ask him as to what he was doing at the

17    camp?

18       A.   No, I didn't.  I just asked for a cigarette, to have a smoke,

19    because there were no cigarettes.  There was a shortage.  One couldn't

20    find cigarettes anywhere.  And Zoran Zigic was good to me in the camp.  He

21    helped me.

22       Q.   Did you ask Zoran Zigic at any time as to why you all were

23    detained in this camp and when you were going to be released from this

24    camp?

25       A.   I didn't.

Page 9595

 1       Q.   Witness, you said that at the -- in your direct examination about

 2    Zoran Zigic, meeting Zoran Zigic in the camp, and he, Mr. Zigic, giving

 3    you a packet or two of cigarettes to be sold; is that correct?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   How many times did you do that favour for Mr. Zigic?

 6       A.   I went with him for the water, that time, and in Keraterm when he

 7    saved my life.  Because a man took out a big knife and he wanted to slit

 8    my throat, and I ran to Zoran Zigic and I said to him, "Zigic, this one

 9    wants to kill me, to slaughter me."  And Zigic said, "Don't be afraid.

10    Nobody will hurt you."  And then I said to him, "Please, Zigic, take me to

11    my dormitory to lie down," because I didn't dare go alone because this

12    soldier was following me.

13       Q.   Witness, I don't think you understood the question.  Please listen

14    to the question.  I asked you about the situation -- the instance where

15    Zoran Zigic gave you a packet of cigarettes or two to be sold.  Do you

16    understand that?  Do you recall that?

17       A.   I do.  I do.

18       Q.   During that time - I will go step by step - did you sell the

19    cigarettes to the detainees?

20       A.   I did.

21       Q.   You were popular among the detainees; they knew you, isn't it?

22       A.   No, they were not my debtors.

23       Q.   You were popular, you were known.  Detainees knew you?

24       A.   Yes, they knew me.  Those who knew me, they knew me, and the

25    others --

Page 9596

 1       Q.   You're the person who served the food --

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.

 3            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence of

 4    Mr. Zigic objects because these are classical examples of leading

 5    questions.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, [In English] if

 7    you see -- sorry.  [Interpretation] If you look, you said, "You were

 8    popular, you were known."  That is an assertion.  You have to put the

 9    question to the witness.

10            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Very well.  I will rephrase the question.

11       Q.   The detainees, according to you, have seen you many times, is that

12    correct, because you served food to them and gave them water, according to

13    what you said today.

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   So the detainees knew you?

16       A.   They did.

17       Q.   When Zoran Zigic gave you the cigarettes, did you go and sell it

18    to anybody?

19       A.   No.  When he gave me two packets, I left them for myself, those

20    two packets.

21            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Please bear with me, Your Honour.

22       Q.   I hope I have understood what you said in your direct

23    examination.  Did Zoran Zigic give you cigarettes to sell?

24       A.   He did.

25       Q.   Did you sell those cigarettes?

Page 9597

 1       A.   I did.

 2       Q.   To whom did you sell those cigarettes?

 3       A.   There weren't that many cigarettes.  There may have been three or

 4    four packets of cigarettes, of Kent cigarettes.

 5       Q.   These three or four packets - I'm sorry to take much time - but

 6    please, to whom did you sell these cigarettes?

 7       A.   I sold them to my neighbours from Puharska and other people who I

 8    didn't know.  I don't know who they were.

 9       Q.   Did they have money with them?

10       A.   They did.  If they didn't have money, I don't know how they would

11    have been able to buy cigarettes.

12       Q.   And what was the price of the cigarettes that you sold to them?

13       A.   Well, really, I can't remember now what the price was.

14       Q.   Did you collect the money that you sold the cigarettes and give

15    back to Mr. Zigic?

16       A.   I did.

17       Q.   Was it a substantial amount that you gave to him?

18       A.   No.  Well, no.

19       Q.   How often did you sell cigarettes for Mr. Zigic?

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, excuse me, but

21    "substantial" is a qualification, and if the witness says yes or no, one

22    doesn't know what is meant.  "Do you have any idea as to the amount of

23    money you earned?"  I know the answer already, but put the question to the

24    witness.

25            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Very well.

Page 9598

 1       Q.   Do you remember or recall the amount of money that you handed over

 2    to Mr. Zigic during that time?

 3       A.   I don't remember.

 4       Q.   Well, I will go on.  Now, Witness, did you sell food to the

 5    detainees while you were in the camp; biscuits?

 6       A.   I did.

 7       Q.   Who provided the food to you to be sold to the detainees?

 8       A.   I don't know.  A guard called me from down there, and every shift

 9    there was a new set of guards, and they forced me.  I don't know his

10    name.  I know he was heavily built, balding, and he forced me to take

11    those bags of food, to sell them, and to bring him the money.  I had to do

12    it, even if it was a bag of food that my own mother had brought for me.

13       Q.   And you sold it to the detainees who had money?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Now, at any time were you asked to go into the room and call out

16    for some detainees?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Did you collect any items from the injured detainees from the

19    rooms?

20       A.   No.  I collected those things in the rooms that were bloody.  I

21    collected those things and threw them on a truck.  Because I had to wash

22    that dormitory, and I washed it, so I collected these things with my own

23    hands, and they were bloodied.

24       Q.   Now, Witness, do you recall a person by the name of Spija Mesic

25    who wore a pair of track shoes and a track suit?

Page 9599

 1       A.   No.  I don't know him.

 2       Q.   Did you come to know him in the camp?

 3       A.   There were so many of them wearing track suits.  I don't remember

 4    him.  There were quite a lot of us there.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.

 6            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if the witness gives

 7    a clear answer, saying that he doesn't know such-and-such a person, then I

 8    really don't see the purpose of the question whether that person was

 9    wearing a track suit.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.  You asked

11    the witness whether he knew him.  The witness said no.  Then you asked

12    whether he came to know him in the camp.  That only has sense if you put

13    it this way:  Upon your arrival, did you know that person?  And the

14    witness says no.  And did you meet him later?  That has sense.  Otherwise

15    we're turning round in a circle and wasting very precious time, as you

16    know.

17            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  I will take your -- I realise the difficulty

18    there, Your Honour.  Thank you.

19       Q.   Now, you said in the rooms that -- which was there bloody.  Am

20    I -- did I understand you correctly?  What was -- what did you find in the

21    rooms which was bloody?

22       A.   No.  Only in number 3.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.

24            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] The witness has already answered the

25    question.  Actually, Mr. President, I really do regret for interrupting

Page 9600

 1    the cross-examination by the Prosecution.  However, in answer to a

 2    question put by the Prosecutor a moment ago, the witness said that in one

 3    room he was cleaning the blood, and the question put by the Prosecutor was

 4    in the plural; in which rooms did he clean the blood.  So I do appeal to

 5    my learned friend from the Prosecution to be more precise in his

 6    questions, because otherwise the witness really can be confused and he may

 7    give the wrong answer to the question put to him as a result of being

 8    misled.

 9            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  May I -- Your Honour, I think Mr. Deretic's

10    objection is not well founded.  At page 81, line 25, answer:  "No.  I

11    collected those things in the rooms that were bloody."  That's why I

12    wanted to clarify.  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would --

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Continue, but in any event, I

14    think that all the interruptions that are not justified cause wasting

15    time.  The witness is here.  He can always answer.  I don't think that the

16    witness is confused.  He knows how to answer the questions.  He was

17    there.  Let us show him at least that much respect.  So please continue.

18            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19       Q.   Witness, today when you gave -- in your direct examination you

20    were shown Exhibit D4/8 [sic]; is that correct?

21       A.   I apologise, but I didn't see this map well.  I can show you now.

22    I put number 2 instead of number 3.  Number 2 was right next to it.  I can

23    see it now on the screen, and the 4 was over here, so I made a mistake on

24    this sketch.  I didn't see it well.

25            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  That's right.

Page 9601

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think you were talking for

 2    D8/4.  It is the confusion that we referred to regarding the numbering,

 3    but it was recorded as D8/4.

 4            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  I stand corrected, Your Honour.  Thank you.  I'm

 5    referring to --

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Continue, please.

 7            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.  The witness has given

 8    an answer to the question.

 9       Q.   Please look at the photograph -- or the exhibit which is on the

10    ELMO.

11       A.   I didn't mark it properly.  I didn't see it well.

12            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Your Honour, the witness wants to correct

13    certain markings which he has done.  I would ask him the questions, and if

14    he wants to make a correction, could he mark in the same exhibit?

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It's a question that perhaps the

16    Defence should answer as well, but I think it would be better to use

17    another photograph.  If the Defence has another photograph, that would be

18    better, so as to avoid any confusion.  Otherwise, there will be several

19    marks, one on top of another, and we will be confused.  So perhaps it

20    would be better to use another photograph, if Defence counsel has one.

21            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] We quite agree that correction

22    should be made.  I have the original photograph from which the copies were

23    made, and I will gladly give it to the usher to give it to the witness.

24            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  I will ask the questions from the exhibit which

25    is now before the witness.  If there is any correction, it can be done in

Page 9602

 1    the re-examination, but I will put my question to the witness.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So very well.  The corrections

 3    will be made by the Defence counsel.

 4            So go on with your questions.

 5            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6       Q.   Witness, please look at the Exhibit D8/4, which is -- you marked

 7    Room 2 in that exhibit.  Isn't that the wrong place that you have marked?

 8       A.   It is.

 9       Q.   Were you shown this exhibit before, before you saw it in the

10    courtroom today?

11       A.   No.  I know Keraterm.  I know Keraterm.

12       Q.   I'm sorry.  My question was:  Did the Defence counsel show this

13    exhibit to you before you came to the courthouse, the Chamber, today?

14       A.   No.  But I know Keraterm very well.

15       Q.   Could you show Room 1, the correct place.  Which is Room 1?

16       A.   Here it is, on the corner, and number 2 is right next to it.

17       Q.   Please look at the exhibit which is on the ELMO.

18       A.   [Indicates]

19       Q.   Could you point to the Room 1?

20       A.   I can.

21       Q.   Keep the pointer there, please.

22       A.   [Indicates]

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.

24            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm just on my feet

25    to try and assist the Trial Chamber and my learned friend.  You see that

Page 9603

 1    the witness didn't quite understand.  He could either use the pointer or

 2    his finger to point out Room 1.  He didn't quite understand what he was

 3    supposed to do.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.  It is the

 5    Prosecutor's turn to put the questions.  He knows whether he's satisfied

 6    with the answers or not.  During your re-examination, you will be asking

 7    the questions, but thank you anyway.

 8            So please continue, Mr. Waidyaratne.

 9            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon, Your Honour.

10            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11       Q.   Witness, please point to Room 1.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, I think it

13    should be borne in mind that the witness doesn't have the abilities that

14    you have.  He doesn't have experience with the use of these audiovisual

15    devices, so you must be very precise in your question.  "Could you point

16    with the pointer on the ELMO where is 'X'," that you want him to do.  If

17    you tell him, "Show us point 'X'," he has in front of him the monitor, as

18    you know.  So his natural reaction is to point at the monitor and not at

19    the document under the ELMO.  So please give the witness the proper

20    information he needs.

21            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Very well, Your Honour.  I'm just asking another

22    question.

23       Q.   Where was Room 2?

24       A.   Right next to number 1.

25       Q.   So the places that you have marked in Exhibit D8/4 in the morning

Page 9604

 1    in your direct examination, that is incorrect; is that correct?

 2       A.   Yes.  I got confused.

 3       Q.   Could you point Room 3?

 4            JUDGE WALD:  Excuse me.  I didn't understand that at all, to the

 5    2.  If the witness could point to where Room 2 is.

 6            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Very well, Your Honour.

 7       Q.   Witness, could you kindly point to Room 2 again, please, Room 2,

 8    with the pointer.

 9       A.   I can.

10            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.

11            MR. WAIDYARATNE:

12       Q.   Is it correct if I say that Room 1 and 2 were adjoined?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Now could you, to assist the Chamber, point to Room 3, please.

15       A.   Here.

16       Q.   Thank you.  Now, in that photograph exhibit you see, onto the left

17    side of the place that you're pointing, another entrance.  Am I correct?

18       A.   Where?

19       Q.   Onto the left side.

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Was there a toilet there?

22       A.   Yes, the toilet was there.

23       Q.   That was the entrance to the toilet?

24       A.   Right next to number "3".  Yes.

25       Q.   So in the morning, in your direct examination, where you have

Page 9605

 1    marked number "3" is incorrect?

 2       A.   Incorrect, incorrect.  I should have put number "4" there, and

 3    where number "2" is, I should have put number "3", and number "1" should

 4    have been right in front of the first dormitory and number "2" right next

 5    to it.

 6       Q.   Thank you.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Waidyaratne.

 8            Witness DD/1, and where you put "4", what should be there?

 9       A.   It should be dormitory number "4".  No, the containers were over

10    there.  Where I put the number "4" is where the containers and the pallets

11    were.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  That's fine now.

13    Continue, please.

14            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Just to follow up from the question that Your

15    Honour put to the witness.

16       Q.   Was it the place where you went and put the bodies?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   That's the place where you say -- which you have marked already as

19    number "4"?

20       A.   Behind the pallets here, that's where I put the bodies.

21       Q.   That's where you have marked number "4", correct?

22       A.   Are there any pallets here?  I don't know.

23       Q.   No, the place.  Could you point it out on the ELMO.

24       A.   I put them here, behind the pallets, between the pallets.  And

25    there was a garbage can here, and I put them here and here, behind the

Page 9606

 1    pallets.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  Now, Witness, you spoke about an incident that took

 3    place in Room 3, the shooting at Room 3.  You can't exactly remember when

 4    this incident happened, can you?

 5       A.   No, no.  I don't remember.

 6       Q.   Will you be able to recall some incidents before this shooting

 7    took place?  You said that the people who were brought in were from the

 8    Brdo area or from --

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   -- correct?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Now, when were they brought in?  Can you remember?  Now, we will

13    fix the date.  We will say before the shooting.  How many days prior to

14    the shooting were they brought in?

15       A.   I don't remember.  I know they spent a long time in number 3

16    before the shooting.

17       Q.   A long time in the sense of days; one, two, three?

18       A.   Well, I don't know how many days it was because I was only

19    counting the days till I got out.

20       Q.   Well, so you don't remember, but they were in there in Room 3 for

21    some time?  That's your position?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Witness, when these people were brought in, do you remember --

24    were you tasked to collect the documents, any documents from these people

25    who were brought into the camp, the detainees?

Page 9607

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   Were you not tasked to burn the documents?

 3       A.   No, no.  No, I wasn't tasked either to collect or to burn the

 4    documents.  I don't know who said that.

 5       Q.   Did you see anybody burning any documents which were collected

 6    from these people who were brought in from the Brdo area?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   If it wasn't the soldiers in the buses when they rounded them up

 9    in Brdo --

10       A.   Maybe the soldiers asked for their documents on the bus.

11       Q.   No.  My question was:  Did you see in the camp anybody collecting

12    any documents from the people who were brought into the camp from the Brdo

13    area?

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The witness has already answered

15    no, Mr. Waidyaratne.

16            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Very well, Your Honour.  I will move on.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do so, please.

18            MR. WAIDYARATNE:

19       Q.   Now, you said the day of the shooting, in the morning, that you

20    provided or distributed food, the breakfast, to the detainees in Room 3.

21    Is that correct?

22       A.   Yes, a day before the shooting.

23       Q.   Were they brought out?  Were the detainees in Room 3 brought out?

24       A.   No.  They had gone wild.

25       Q.   Why?  Could you explain it to the Chamber, please?

Page 9608

 1       A.   Well, they went crazy.  They just went mad.  I know when I brought

 2    food to them, I opened the door once, but the next time I didn't dare

 3    because they grabbed my hands and tried to pull me in.  They wanted to

 4    pull me in.  God knows what might have happened to me.  Then I broke the

 5    window up there.  I didn't ask for soldiers or anyone.  I threw in bags of

 6    food, and the food that my mother or my sister brought to me I would throw

 7    in to them, and they were grabbing for the food, fighting over it.  They

 8    had gone mad.

 9       Q.   So is it your position, when you say that they had gone mad, that

10    these people were not let out of that room to eat that day?

11       A.   Well --

12       Q.   Yes or no.

13       A.   No, because they started banging on the door, trying to run away.

14    They damaged the door.  They kicked it and punched it and pulled it out

15    and then they started escaping.

16       Q.   What time was this?  Was it before you provided the breakfast,

17    according to you, or was it in the evening?

18       A.   No, no.  It was before breakfast was to be distributed to them.

19       Q.   Witness, before this date, did you provide them food?  Did you

20    provide food to the people who were detained in Room 3?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Did they behave the same way when you provided the food to them?

23       A.   Well, again, I was afraid to approach them.  I was afraid to

24    approach them and hand it to them directly.  I was afraid.

25       Q.   Could you explain it to us.  Were they let out at all after they

Page 9609

 1    were put into Room 3?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Do you know -- now, we'll go before that.  I think -- I'm sorry to

 4    go back a step.

 5            Do you remember the camp -- the people who were in Room 3, before

 6    these people arrived, being sent to other rooms and clearing up Room 3?

 7       A.   I don't remember.  I know that Rooms 1 and 2 and 4 were

 8    dormitories and then number 3 was opened up later on.  Because number 4

 9    used to be a prison for soldiers, and then the soldiers were moved to a

10    place behind Keraterm for detention.

11       Q.   Witness, so when you said that you provided breakfast to the

12    detainees in Room 3 in the morning of the shooting that happened in the

13    night, what you said was not that they were allowed to come out and have

14    what they were provided, but you simply threw it from a window, is that

15    correct, a broken window?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Did you recognise any of these people who were detained in Room 3

18    who was brought in from that area?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   That day, did you supply food to the other people who were

21    detained in Room 1 and 2 and number 4?

22       A.   1, 2, and 4, they went out to have breakfast.

23       Q.   Did you see any beatings during the day of the shooting?

24       A.   No, I didn't.

25       Q.   Now, you spoke about seeing machine-guns.  Are you talking about

Page 9610

 1    the machine-guns which were permanently in the camp, or were any

 2    machine-guns put up temporarily that day?

 3       A.   They were there temporarily when we came into the camp.

 4       Q.   So you were talking about the machine-guns that were there when

 5    you came into the camp; that's your position?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   So if it's correct, it's more or less permanently, which has been

 8    there for some time, if I may use that word; not temporarily, but it has

 9    been there for some time.  Is that correct?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Now, on the day of the shooting, did you see any new guns being

12    set up?

13       A.   No, I didn't.

14       Q.   Did you walk around that day in the camp?

15       A.   Yes, I did.

16       Q.   Until what time were you allowed to walk around that day?

17       A.   Well, as long as I wanted to.  So I went to the dormitory and then

18    a guard would come to lock me in, and then he would lock us in and leave

19    us in the dormitory.

20       Q.   Now, Witness, is it correct if I say that you were one who was

21    allowed to walk around, but all the other detainees couldn't come out of

22    the rooms whenever they wanted; is that correct?

23       A.   Yes.  Rooms 1 and 2 and 4, they could also go out, the same way I

24    did, but I walked around more in the compound.  They would go out to go to

25    the toilet or have a drink of water.

Page 9611

 1       Q.   Are you trying to say that the people -- the detainees in the

 2    Rooms 1, 2, and if I may miss 3, say 4, were allowed to come out of their

 3    rooms at any time of the day to go out, even to the toilet?

 4       A.   No.  They would call a guard when they needed to go to the

 5    toilet.  The guard would come, unlock the door, escort them to the toilet,

 6    and bring them back.

 7       Q.   But whereas you were allowed to move around freely?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Now, Witness, that day of the shooting, how long did you stay

10    out?  Surely this must be on your mind.

11       A.   I?

12       Q.   How long did you stay out?

13       A.   While there was shooting?

14       Q.   Before the shooting.

15       A.   Not long.  I was unwell.  I had a stomachache and a headache.  I

16    went to sleep.

17       Q.   So that day you were not well, you went to sleep earlier; is that

18    correct?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   That was in Room 1?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   You didn't see as to what happened outside the rooms that evening

23    or in the night; is that correct?

24       A.   That's correct.  I didn't see.  I only know --

25       Q.   Now, next day, morning, you said that you were called out around

Page 9612

 1    6.00 by [redacted]; is that correct?

 2       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes.

 3       Q.   So weren't you afraid to go out after you heard so much of, you

 4    know, shooting the previous night till dawn?

 5       A.   Well, there was no shooting just before dawn.  When [redacted]

 6    came to fetch me to go, I saw from number 3, I saw how they had damaged

 7    the door and started fleeing.  I saw them in front and near the toilet.

 8    You could see it from Room 1.  And they were starting to run towards the

 9    fence, and I saw two who were dead and I saw that there were corpses lying

10    around.

11       Q.   Now you're talking about the dead people in the compound, am I

12    correct, after the shooting?  Now, you speak so well.  Could you tell us:

13    When you went to the Room 3, was another person by the name of Sead

14    Jakupovic with you from Room 1, a detainee?

15       A.   With me?

16       Q.   A detainee.

17       A.   What name did you say?

18       Q.   Sead Jakupovic.

19       A.   Yes.  That's a neighbour of mine.

20       Q.   He also went -- he was also asked to come out to help to load the

21    bodies; correct?

22       A.   Yes, but he couldn't do it.

23       Q.   Yes.  I will ask -- we will go step by step.  Witness, did you see

24    the people who were killed and wounded inside the Room 3?

25       A.   Yes, I did.

Page 9613

 1       Q.   Did you gradually take out the bodies and lay it out in the

 2    compound in front of Room 3?

 3       A.   No.  First I collected the bodies, and those that were in front of

 4    Room 3, I lined them up, and then I went for the wounded and I put them

 5    there.  And then I went into Room 3, this man I mentioned and I, Elkaz,

 6    the one I mentioned.  He and I carried them, and he and I loaded them.

 7    And then my hands, my arms, my mouth, everything was covered with blood.

 8    My arms were bloody up to the elbows.  I wish someone had taken a

 9    photograph of me.  And it made me so sick I couldn't eat.

10       Q.   Witness, did the people ask for water, people who were wounded ask

11    for water, and did you give water to them?

12       A.   Yes, I did.  I gave them water.

13       Q.   And subsequently even the wounded were loaded into the truck and

14    sent away; is that correct?

15       A.   Yes.  Both the wounded and the dead.  I loaded them, all together.

16       Q.   Now, this would have taken some time to take out the bodies and to

17    load them into the truck, because there were many; is that correct?

18       A.   Yes, but it didn't take long.

19       Q.   Now, Witness, after that did -- you spoke about the incident where

20    the truck came back and the truck was washed.  Did you see the place being

21    washed?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Who did that?

24       A.   My brother.

25       Q.   Did he wash the area in front of the Room 3 or was it only the

Page 9614

 1    truck?

 2       A.   No.  Only the truck.

 3            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  May I briefly go into a private session just to

 4    ask a couple of questions, Your Honour?  Thank you.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Let us go into private

 6    session now.

 7                          [Private session]

 8    [redacted]

 9    [redacted]

10    [redacted]

11    [redacted]

12    [redacted]

13    [redacted]

14    [redacted]

15    [redacted]

16                          [Open session]

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  We're in public session.

18    You may continue.

19            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.  If Your Honour will

20    bear with me for a moment.  Thank you.

21       Q.   Witness, now, we have heard much about how you helped in providing

22    the -- distributing the food and the water.  Now, what else did the guards

23    ask you?  You said once that you were asked to take the bodies and place

24    the dead people, the detainees, behind Room 4; am I correct?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9615

 1       Q.   How often did you do this?

 2       A.   Well, whenever a man was killed, I carried him there.  No one did

 3    that except for me and that other man, no one.  And those who were here

 4    before and who said that this man had been with me and loaded bodies, that

 5    wasn't true.  No one dared approach the corpses.  Everybody was afraid

 6    when I called to them to come and help me.

 7       Q.    Or was it the Serb authorities or the people who were in the camp

 8    had much confidence in you?  They had confidence in you; is that correct?

 9    They selected you?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Was there any special reason for them to, you know, select you for

12    this kind of work?  Did you know any people in authority in the camp other

13    than Zoran Zigic?

14       A.   No.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.

16            Mr. Waidyaratne, please check the wording of your question.

17    You're making a substantial assertion.  I think that is what Mr. Deretic

18    was going to object to.

19            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  I will withdraw that.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but Mr. Waidyaratne, at

21    this stage of the trial you have to be careful.

22            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  I will withdraw that, Your Honour.  Thank you.

23       Q.   Did you know any other person in the camp other than Mr. Zoran

24    Zigic?

25       A.   Yes.  Before the camp.

Page 9616












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13   and English transcripts.













Page 9617

 1       Q.   In the camp, the people, the guards?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Who asked you to do these jobs, these things that you have told us

 4    today, the taking of the dead bodies?

 5       A.   Well, whoever managed to do it first.  Whoever told me to carry a

 6    body, I had to do it, because if I didn't do it, they would have killed

 7    me.

 8       Q.   Now, you said that Mr. Zoran Zigic once saved your life.  Were

 9    there any other instances where Mr. Zigic helped, other than providing

10    cigarettes, when you were in the Keraterm camp?

11       A.   Well, before that Zigic saved my life.  If it hadn't been for

12    Zigic, I would be dead now.

13       Q.   Was Mr. Zigic there to protect you during the time that you spent

14    in Keraterm?

15       A.   No.  When Zigic was there that first time, then he saved my life.

16    And then I saw Zigic only once, when Car was brought in.  After that I

17    didn't see him in mid-June.

18       Q.   So you only speak about two instances where you have seen

19    Mr. Zigic; is that correct?  Is that your position?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   During the time that you spent in the Keraterm camp?

22       A.   Yes.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, I think we have

24    to adjourn for today.  I don't know whether there is a good moment for

25    you, but we have been working since quarter past one, more or less, so we

Page 9618

 1    have to break until tomorrow.

 2            I'm going to ask the usher - just a moment - to see the witness

 3    out first.

 4                          [The witness stands down]

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the English

 6    booth to switch off the microphone.

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Sorry.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We'll be here again tomorrow at

 9    9.20.

10            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, before you leave, I have to make an

11    objection.  As the witness was passing by counsel's table, I saw

12    Mr. Deretic say something to the witness.  I could not say what

13    Mr. Deretic said, but I certainly saw his mouth moving.  I would ask the

14    Trial Chamber -- I believe there is a no-contact order between counsel and

15    the witnesses once the witness has begun his or her testimony.  That has

16    always been the policy of this Chamber.  I would simply ask that counsel

17    be cautioned, Your Honour.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.

19            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I really don't know

20    what to say.  My mouth is so dry that I would like to drink a glassful of

21    water.  I was expecting the end, and there was just a gesture that I made

22    and my learned friend thought I said something, and I didn't say

23    anything.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When the witness leaves, could

25    the witness look at the Judges.  I don't know.  If we're going to be in

Page 9619

 1    such a strict position, then it will be very difficult for us to work.

 2    But I trust you to know what we should do and we should not do.  I trust

 3    people.  People are adults.  But I'm telling you if there are any

 4    infractions, the Chamber is here.  But I think that we must trust one

 5    another after all, otherwise, we will all become paranoid.  Every gesture

 6    or a word which may be uttered by chance may be given unnecessary value

 7    and that will place us in an impossible situation to work.

 8            Let us be reasonable, let us act as adults, and above all, and

 9    above all, and I insist on this, let us be good professionals, respecting

10    our ethics and the rules, and in my opinion, that should be sufficient for

11    us to be able to complete our work properly, because my concern is not

12    only to do a lot of work but also to do it well, because as you know, it

13    is sometimes very difficult to make a proper balance between the quantity

14    and the quality of work.  But I prefer to have good quality work that is

15    based on human qualities and the professional qualities of the persons

16    here present.

17            I always have in mind for somebody to be a good professional, he

18    first of all has to be a humane person and then technically qualified.

19    And not a professor.  I'm just sharing with you my view of things.  I'm

20    just sharing with you my view of things and reality and life.  To be a

21    humane person, technically qualified.  We have diplomas qualifying us to

22    work in this courtroom.

23            Having said that, we will adjourn until tomorrow at 9.20.

24            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really don't know

25    to whom this photograph on the ELMO belongs.  Can we pick it up?  It's

Page 9620

 1    still there.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] [No translation]

 3                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.05 p.m.,

 4                          to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day

 5                          of March, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.