1 Thursday, 29th March 2001 2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.27 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please be seated.
6 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning to the technical
7 booth, the interpreters. Good morning registry staff, the counsel for the
8 Prosecution and for the Defence. We will be resuming our case.
9 I think that Ms. Susan Somers has something to say. Please
11 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Yesterday I had
12 promised the Chamber and counsel to report on the status of the use of the
13 model of Keraterm in the Keraterm trial. I have spoken with the
14 Prosecution representative there, and the model will not be used.
15 Although the outside is satisfactory in terms of fair depiction of
16 Keraterm in 1992, because it has a removable top, the inside when looked
17 at, it has been considered -- it is not accurate, does not accurately
18 depict the 1992 Keraterm, so we have elected not to -- the Prosecution has
19 elected not to use the model.
20 I have conveyed this a little while ago to Mr. Stojanovic and have
21 indicated that some of the photographs which were provided by the
22 Prosecution to the Defence and which are, in fact, being used in the
23 Keraterm trial are better depictions, and I think probably will not
24 confuse any person, any trier of fact or witness looking at them.
25 The decision, of course, rests with Mr. Stojanovic, but we feel
1 that there would be some objection, certainly to using the internal parts,
2 regrettably, but I wanted to let the Chamber know the status.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, do you wish to
4 make a brief comment? We don't wish to waste too much time discussing the
5 model, but please say whatever you have to say, but briefly.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, after consultation
7 with my co-counsel, we will use photographs. As we see that that would be
8 a problem as there are several photographs, the Prosecution has offered to
9 assist us and provide us some more. Thank you.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I think that we can
11 now call the witness.
12 Mr. Usher, will you bring in the witness, please.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness DD/2. Can
15 you hear me?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're going to continue your
18 testimony. I remind you that you're still testifying under oath, and you
19 will continue to answer questions that Mr. Saxon is going to put to you.
20 Mr. Saxon, your witness.
21 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. Just as a point of
22 clarification, it's my understanding that I have 25 more minutes in which
23 to complete this cross-examination, but I know I have been wrong before in
24 terms of my mathematics, so I simply want to check that that is also the
25 Trial Chamber's understanding.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think your arithmetic is
2 right, so please continue.
3 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. May we please go into private
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let us go into private
7 [Private session]
13 Page 9728-9735 redacted private session.
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in public session.
7 MR. SAXON:
8 Q. Witness DD/2, while you were detained in the Keraterm camp, how
9 were you treated by the other Muslim prisoners there?
10 A. Not well at all.
11 Q. Why not?
12 A. There were quarrels, there was pushing around. Nobody was
13 enjoying it.
14 Q. What would you quarrel with the other Muslim prisoners about?
15 A. What about? About food.
16 Q. Were you present when a man wanted to slit your brother's throat
17 with a knife, but Zoran Zigic protected him? Were you present on that
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What did Zoran Zigic do to protect your brother?
21 A. He said to my brother, "Come over here. Not a hair may be touched
22 on your head."
23 Q. What, if anything, did Zoran Zigic say to the man with the knife?
24 A. He told him to shove off, to get out, to leave the compound.
25 Q. And did that man with the knife leave the compound?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was Zoran Zigic liked by the other Muslim detainees at the
3 Keraterm camp?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How would you describe - and this is my last question - the
6 reputation that Mr. Zigic had with the other Muslim prisoners?
7 A. He behaved correctly towards the other Muslim detainees. I know
8 that he didn't beat anyone, except for this Car, once in the behind, that
9 he kicked. I don't know he hit anyone else, and he didn't, in fact.
10 MR. SAXON: The Court's indulgence, please.
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
14 Mr. Deretic, I know you have some additional questions, so please
16 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Re-examined by Mr. Deretic:
18 Q. Witness DD/2, you said yesterday that you went to Travnik on the
19 17th of September, 1994, from Prijedor.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You also said yesterday that upon reaching Travnik you were
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. After you arrived in Travnik, how much time went by until your
1 A. Less than half an hour. Thirty minutes.
2 Q. Who arrested you?
3 A. The police, the military police.
4 Q. Whose military police was it?
5 A. Of the Federation.
6 Q. At the time when you went to Travnik, was fierce fighting still
7 going on in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In those days, was there a very strict border between the
10 territory controlled by the Serbs and the territory controlled by the
11 Muslims and Croats?
12 A. They were real borders between territories.
13 Q. In which part of the territory of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina
14 was Travnik situated in those days?
15 A. Near Turbek.
16 Q. Under whose control was Travnik?
17 A. Under the control of the Federation.
18 Q. After your arrest, where were you taken?
19 A. To prison.
20 Q. Was that a civilian or a military prison?
21 A. A military prison.
22 Q. Do you know why you were arrested?
23 A. No. Nobody told me anything. They just took me in.
24 Q. After your arrest, were you beaten?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who beat you?
2 A. I was beaten by soldiers and civilians, people from Kozarac,
4 Q. Who were these Sivci?
5 A. That was their surname, Sivac.
6 Q. How many of them were there?
7 A. Six.
8 Q. Were they wearing civilian clothes or in uniform?
9 A. Some were in uniform, some in civilian clothes.
10 Q. Whose uniform was it?
11 A. The uniform of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 Q. On that occasion, were you beaten just once or several times?
13 A. Non-stop.
14 Q. In addition to this beating, were you mistreated in any other way?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you describe how you were mistreated in addition to
18 A. I was constantly called out.
19 Q. The room you were put in after your arrest, what were the
20 conditions like there?
21 A. Dreadful.
22 Q. Could you describe the room that you were put in?
23 A. Well, there were three wooden beds made of wooden boards, there
24 was concrete on the floor, and military blankets.
25 Q. Was anyone else with you in that room as a detainee?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you remember the name or names of those persons?
3 A. Only my brother was with me.
4 Q. Was that your older or your younger brother?
5 A. My older brother.
6 Q. While you're talking, I can see that your teeth are missing.
7 A. Yes. They knocked them out while I was there. I was covered in
8 bruises. I was all black and blue. I couldn't drink water even. My
9 brother also had all his teeth knocked out. He hasn't got one left, and
10 he had all of them before.
11 Q. Did you lose your teeth there in the room in which you were
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you remember what they used to beat you with?
15 A. All kinds of things: their boots and truncheons and planks,
16 whatever they could get hold of. They were under the effect of drugs,
17 they were drunk.
18 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't understand. Who was drugged and drunk?
19 A. Well, those Sivac men, and the soldiers were drunk too.
20 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, allow me to repeat
21 the question once again for the witness to answer, because I don't think
22 the answer has been registered in the transcript.
23 Q. Did the guards protect you when you were beaten up?
24 A. No. They gave these soldiers and civilians the key to come in.
25 Q. Were you given food regularly while you were imprisoned in that
2 A. Only once, and that was in the evening.
3 Q. What did you receive for dinner?
4 A. Well, a soup of some kind.
5 Q. Was that enough as a meal?
6 A. No.
7 Q. During the time you were beaten, did anybody interrogate you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could you notice on that occasion that the minutes were taken of
10 your interrogation?
11 A. I don't remember that.
12 Q. How many times did they interrogate you in that way?
13 A. Twice.
14 Q. Do you mean when you were in prison in Travnik?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Witness DD/2, when were you transferred to the prison in Zenica?
17 A. On the 14th of October, 1994.
18 Q. Were you transferred to the Zenica prison directly from that
19 prison in Travnik?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How long did you spend in the prison in Zenica?
22 A. One year.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, I apologise for
24 interrupting, but could you tell us, please, how much time you're going to
25 need for your redirect, because what you are doing now seems to me to be
1 more in the line of an examination-in-chief rather than a redirect.
2 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is my intention
3 to question the witness for five more minutes, but all the questions
4 relate precisely to the statement presented and introduced by the
5 Prosecution during the witness's cross-examination, so I beg the Court's
6 indulgence for another five minutes, please.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead.
8 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. While you were in Zenica, were you beaten there?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Who beat you there?
12 A. The police did.
13 Q. During the time you spent in Travnik and Zenica, did you give a
15 A. I just gave my statement with respect to when they imprisoned me
16 in Travnik, and I have a decision, my own decision on that.
17 Q. Did you give the contents of that statement that the Prosecution
18 has presented to you? Is that it?
19 A. Well, this could possibly be in Travnik, but I don't remember this
20 statement, and eight or nine years have gone by since then.
21 Q. While you were in Travnik and Zenica, during that period of time
22 did you happen to go to Banja Luka ever?
23 A. No, never.
24 Q. On the statement that has been shown to you it says that it was
25 compiled in the Security Service Centre of Banja Luka on the 11th of, on
1 the 11th of October, 1994. Where were you then on that date? Where were
3 A. I was in Travnik.
4 Q. Were you detained for the first time at that time before you were
5 transferred to Zenica?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You said a moment ago that you were transferred from Travnik to
9 A. Yes, that's right. I was transferred to Zenica on the 14th of
10 October, 1994.
11 Q. Did you sign any kind of statement while you were in Travnik?
12 A. The signature is mine, but it was all under duress.
13 Q. Are you talking about the statement presented to you by the
15 A. I don't remember having given this.
16 Q. You said you gave a statement. When you gave that statement,
17 before you signed it, was it read back to you?
18 A. Never. I never read it myself, either.
19 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
21 Mr. Deretic.
22 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.
23 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Questioned by the Court:
25 JUDGE RIAD: Witness DD/2, good morning. Can you see me and hear
1 me in front of you?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE RIAD: I'll just have a few questions to understand more
4 what you said, and I'll start by the very end. You were just mentioning
5 that you had to give a statement; you apparently gave a statement in
6 Travnik. Do you remember if they forced you to make any false confessions
7 and told you what to say?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE RIAD: Do you remember what it was?
10 A. It was forced, under duress, because we were beaten. We were all
11 beaten up and bloody, all black and blue.
12 JUDGE RIAD: Now, but you don't know the content of what they
13 wanted you to say?
14 A. No.
15 JUDGE RIAD: And you signed without knowing anything?
16 A. Yes. Well, I don't know. I don't remember. The signature is
17 mine, but it was all under duress. I don't remember what. I didn't read
18 it, nor did they read it to me, ever.
19 JUDGE RIAD: Now, the fact is that you were -- the fact that you
20 have been mistreated, you mentioned also you were mistreated in Kozarac by
21 the civilians and also by the Bosniak soldiers, I suppose, if I understood
22 rightly. What did they hold against you?
23 A. Not in Kozarac, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE RIAD: All right. Was it Zenica? I'm sorry, I don't know
25 the place exactly. Wherever it was, it was -- it was by civilians, but
1 Muslim civilians, wasn't it?
2 A. In Travnik, yes.
3 JUDGE RIAD: In Travnik. What did they hold against you? You're
4 one of them, aren't you?
5 A. Because I remained until 1994.
6 JUDGE RIAD: Remained where?
7 A. Prijedor.
8 JUDGE RIAD: Was that enough to, to hurt you in that manner, to be
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE RIAD: What did they want you to do?
12 A. Because we didn't leave in 1992 to go and fight. I didn't want to
13 go to war.
14 JUDGE RIAD: Were there other people like you who were treated
15 this way, many others?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE RIAD: And that was also the reason you were put in gaol and
18 treated almost like an enemy, badly and without any respect of human
19 rights, as you said? All that because you do not go to war?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE RIAD: Speaking of the other interrogation which was in
22 Keraterm, so there was no torture in it, no beating like the one you had,
23 like the one you had I think in Travnik? You had not at all -- were not
24 at all beaten in Keraterm in the interrogation?
25 A. No, just once. I was beaten just once.
1 JUDGE RIAD: No. I see.
2 A. The Muslims beat me in Travnik.
3 JUDGE RIAD: I'm speaking now of Keraterm.
4 THE INTERPRETER: "The Muslims beat me more in Travnik," was what
5 the witness said.
6 JUDGE RIAD: Good. But in Keraterm --
7 A. No, only once. I said they hit me only once, and that was in the
9 JUDGE RIAD: But you were not beaten during the interrogation. I
10 noted that down. But did you see others being beaten in the
12 A. No, I didn't see that.
13 JUDGE RIAD: Did you hear them, any sound of torture, of
14 something, some brutality?
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you mentioned that you -- you mentioned, I
17 think, that you saw Mr. Zigic three days after your arrival to Keraterm
18 camp. Is that -- did I understand correctly?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE RIAD: Then you said also in the cross-examination that I
21 believe that you saw him only once.
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE RIAD: And you said that he was very kind. He would never
24 beat anyone. Now, seeing him only once, was that enough for you to judge
25 that he was kind and would not beat anyone?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE RIAD: It was enough? And this only time, he gave you food
3 and cigarettes, as you said, or he gave you several times?
4 A. He gave me that once.
5 JUDGE RIAD: Only that once? So it only happened once?
6 Everything happened once?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad
11 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.
12 JUDGE WALD: Witness, you talked in your testimony about the
13 detainees Car and Emsud Bahonjic had been captured carrying guns of
14 various kinds, and that seems to be a reason why they were specially
15 singled out for attack in the camp.
16 My question to you is you said you were there when Car arrived and
17 was beaten and made to run in the circles with the gun on him. Did you
18 actually see Car arriving still having the gun on his, or the same with
19 Emsud Bahonjic? Were they still carrying the guns when they arrived, or
20 did you just hear about the fact that they had been carrying guns when
21 they were captured?
22 A. This man Car came with a machine-gun, and Emsud Bahonjic --
23 JUDGE WALD: I'm sorry, go ahead.
24 A. And Emsud Bahonjic came with a rifle.
25 JUDGE WALD: So you saw them getting off of a police van still
1 carrying a Singapore rifle and a machine-gun? They were allowed to be
2 carrying those guns as they got out of the police van and arrived at the
4 That's what you saw; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE WALD: Okay. You also told us that on the night of the
7 "massacre," you saw things out of the openings in the door, or the
8 netting or whatever, the apertures in the door in Room 1; right? You said
9 you could see out of the openings in the door in Room 1, where you were,
10 as to some of the things that were happening during the shooting, during
11 the shootings directed toward Room 3. Isn't that what you told us?
12 A. That was just outside, in the morning. I saw those dead bodies.
13 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Let me clarify that. I'm glad you helped me
14 out. I thought you had told me - but tell me if I'm wrong - I thought you
15 had told us that you could actually see out the door in number 1 to what
16 was happening during the period of the shootings. Is that wrong, and now
17 you are just saying that when you came out the next morning you saw the
18 bodies, but you didn't actually see anything happening that night? Which
19 is it?
20 A. I just saw in the morning --
21 JUDGE WALD: Okay. All right. Thank you.
22 A. -- the dead bodies.
23 JUDGE WALD: That's very helpful. So you didn't see anything that
24 night that was actually happening. Okay.
25 As far as the bodies go, you told us about the AutoTransport truck
1 being there in front of number 3. My question is: Were all the bodies,
2 the dead bodies and the wounded, able to be transported in one trip by
3 that truck? Did the truck -- was the truck able to get all the wounded
4 and dead bodies or did it have to make more than one trip?
5 A. Just once.
6 JUDGE WALD: So could you approximate for us or give us just a
7 notion of how many bodies fitted into that truck for that one trip, just a
8 general notion?
9 A. I can't tell you when I don't know how many bodies there were, but
10 they could all fit in.
11 JUDGE WALD: Well, maybe you could tell me whether it was dozens
12 or hundreds. You must have that kind of an estimate.
13 A. About 150.
14 JUDGE WALD: Okay. And one question, one last question following
15 up from Judge Riad. You clarified in your answer to him that you had just
16 seen Mr. Zigic once, and I think then that you only sold the cigarettes
17 for him once. Is that right? Was that your answer to Judge Riad: Just
18 that one time you saw him and you got your cigarettes from him, just that
19 one time?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE WALD: Okay. And you also told us at other times in the
22 testimony that you described what he wore and how he looked, and you said
23 that he behaved nicely, but you also said that sometimes he would be
24 shouting or using a loud voice. So in the one time that you saw him, he
25 behaved nicely, or he was shouting, or he both behaved nicely and was
1 shouting, and that was the one time that you got the cigarettes and that
2 you saw him kicking Car once; all that happened in the one time, is that
4 A. I just saw him hit Car once.
5 JUDGE WALD: Yes, but you also -- everything else you said about
6 him in your testimony, about how nicely he behaved, whether he shouted,
7 how he looked, the fact that you sold cigarettes -- he gave you cigarettes
8 to sell for him, that all happened in one episode, is that right, on one
9 day, on the arrival of Car's day?
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge
14 Witness, to continue along those lines, how many times did
15 you -- for how long did you see Zigic when you saw him that one time?
16 A. I saw him just the once.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but for how long? Two
18 minutes, two hours, two days?
19 A. A whole day.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: A whole day. [Interpretation] Do you remember
21 the date, perhaps, more or less?
22 A. No.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you remember the date or the
24 day when you were interrogated?
25 A. I don't remember.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you remember the date when
2 you arrived in the camp?
3 A. The 30th of May.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that you said that you
5 were interrogated four or five days after your arrival, so do you know the
6 date when you were interrogated?
7 A. Well, when I arrived I was completely beside myself, completely
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I would like to go back to the
10 incident with Car. You said at one particular point that they started to
11 beat him immediately, or words to that effect. I think that when you say
12 "they started," that you mean the soldiers. Is that right? Am I
13 understanding you correctly?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And Zoran Zigic, was he present
16 or not?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you remember how many times
19 this incident -- how long the incident with Car lasted?
20 A. Well, I don't really remember so well.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. You also stated that
22 among the soldiers beating Car, you did not see Zoran Zigic among those
23 soldiers. Now, was Zigic present or not?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You also said that Emsud
1 Bahonjic arrived on the 8th of June, 1992, and that he had come from
2 Kozarac, brought in by the police; is that true?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why do you happen to remember
5 that date so exactly?
6 A. Because the months were close next to each other. July follows
7 June, August follows July, and August was when I left.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you felt more lost at the
9 beginning, when you -- did you feel more lost when you came to the camp,
10 at the beginning, or towards the end of your stay there? Because you said
11 that you didn't know the date because you felt lost, you felt beside
12 yourself, and I can understand that, but how come you recalled that
13 particular date so well?
14 A. Well, I asked the other detainees, the other prisoners.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You asked the other prisoners
16 what day it was; is that what you mean?
17 A. Yes. When Emsud Bahonjic arrived.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And why did you ask what date it
19 was? Did you have a specific reason why you did that?
20 A. No. I just asked.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. I think that
22 Mr. Deretic asked you the following question, whether Emsud Bahonjic was
23 dead or was killed. You said, "I don't remember." Now, in your memory,
24 was there some sort of knowledge that you forgot, and if so, what was that
25 information? Did you forget --
1 A. I don't remember about Emsud Bahonjic.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, I have this question,
3 and that's where the problem lies. If somebody asked me whether I knew
4 whether he was -- Bahonjic was killed or just died, I would say, "I don't
5 know." But you said, "I don't remember," which means that you might have
6 known, you might have had some information about that, but that now you
7 are unable to recall that information to remember it. So there's a
8 difference there, and is there a difference when you say, "I don't
9 remember" or "I don't know"? Is there a difference in your mind when you
10 say those two, "I don't remember," or when you say "I don't know"?
11 A. Well, I don't know.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. With respect to Drago
13 Tokmadzic, you said that he succumbed on the 20th of June. Now, I am
14 asking you now: How did you know -- how did you learn -- how did you come
15 to learn that particular date?
16 A. Because one of the soldiers mentioned it, that the soldier said
17 that Drago Tokmadzic had succumbed to beating that particular June.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know the soldier?
19 A. No.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When you were washing the truck,
21 a soldier arrived, you said, and your brother -- actually, you said that
22 your brother called a guard called Sisic [phoen]. Do you know that guard?
23 A. Not Sisic [phoen]. Kicic [phoen]. The guard's name was Kicic
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right. But it wasn't Zigic,
1 at any rate. It wasn't Zigic; it was Kicic [phoen]?
2 A. I didn't say Zigic. You said Sisic [phoen].
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well.
4 You also said that Emsud Bahonjic was beaten inside Room 1. Do
5 you know who beat him?
6 A. No, I don't remember. Well, the soldiers and the police. There
7 were a lot of us there in that particular room. We were all one on top of
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] To wind up one more question,
10 you said in connection with this statement shown to you by the Prosecutor,
11 at a certain point you said, "This is my signature, but under pressure,
12 under duress." Do you confirm that you said that?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You also said, "I don't remember
15 giving that statement." Do you remember that?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You say you don't remember. You
18 don't remember having said, "I don't remember giving such a statement," or
19 you don't remember having made that statement?
20 A. I don't remember giving a statement, giving such a statement.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That's fine. That is sufficient
22 for me.
23 How can you say that you do not remember having made this
24 statement, but you also say that you signed it under duress? How can both
25 happen at the same time, not remembering a statement and saying that you
1 signed it under duress?
2 A. When I was giving the statement, I was beaten up. I was totally
3 lost, and I'm saying I don't remember now. So all this was under duress
4 because we were beaten when we were making those statements, because that
5 is the only way they could force us to make such a statement, by beating
6 us up.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you. We have
8 no more questions for you, Witness DD/2. Thank you very much for coming,
9 and we wish you a safe journey home. Don't move for the moment because we
10 need to pull down the blinds, and I'm going to ask the usher to do that.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I think it's time, a good
14 moment for a break before we begin with a new witness, so we're going to
15 have a half-hour break.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
19 Before we have the witness brought in, merely to clarify
20 something, you are not going to ask for the admission of that statement,
21 Mr. Saxon, are you?
22 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour, we are not. Pursuant to the rules of
23 this Trial Chamber, we are not.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes. [Interpretation] Very well. In any way,
25 it has been marked for identification, so if you were going to tender it,
1 you knew what the ruling of the Chamber is, and that is really a prior
2 statement in the sense of our ruling from the very beginning, so we
3 maintain our decision. There's no need to make a decision because you are
4 not requesting its admission, so this was simply to make things quite
5 clear. Thank you for your cooperation.
6 Now, Mr. Deretic or Mr. Stojanovic, who will be the next witness?
7 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence for
8 Mr. Zigic calls our fourth witness, Mr. Ivica Sikic.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, bring in the witness,
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Ivica Sikic.
13 Can you hear me?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I can.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please read the solemn
16 declaration given to you by the usher, please.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Thank you
20 very much for coming. You will first be answering questions put to you by
21 Mr. Deretic.
22 Mr. Deretic, your witness.
23 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 WITNESS: IVICA SIKIC
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Examined by Mr. Deretic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sikic, can you hear me?
3 A. I hear you.
4 Q. Would you be kind enough to tell us your full name?
5 A. Ivica Sikic.
6 Q. Will you give us your mother's name and your father's name?
7 A. My mother's name was Jela, and my father's name Mato.
8 Q. When and where were you born?
9 A. I was born on the 2nd of October, 1954, in Zuna.
10 Q. What municipality does Zuna belong to?
11 A. In those days, they belonged to the municipality of Ljubija, and
12 today Zuna belongs to the municipality of Prijedor.
13 Q. What is your ethnicity?
14 A. I am a Croat, and my religion is Catholicism.
15 Q. Where are you residing now?
16 A. I'm living in Prijedor.
17 Q. Are you married?
18 A. I am.
19 Q. Do you have any children?
20 A. I do, two, a son and a daughter.
21 Q. Do you know Zoran Zigic?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. Since when have you known him?
24 A. I have known him since 1980.
25 Q. Is your house in the same district as Zigic's house?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes, it is in the same neighbourhood.
2 Q. Do you know Mr. Zigic's parents?
3 A. I do know Zoran Zigic's parents.
4 Q. What is their name?
5 A. Zigic's mother's name is Savka and his father's name is Nikola.
6 Q. Before the war, during the war, and today, have you socialised?
7 A. Yes, we socialise, as we are close neighbours.
8 Q. Before the war broke out in the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, do you
9 know where Zoran Zigic resided?
10 A. Before the war, you're asking me? I didn't quite understand your
12 Q. Do you know whether Zoran Zigic was in Prijedor before the war?
13 A. Before the war started, Zoran was in Pula, and then he came to
15 Q. Prior to the outbreak of war, were you employed?
16 A. I was employed.
17 Q. Where were you employed?
18 A. I was working in Impro-Prijedor, a factory for the processing of
20 Q. After the war broke out, were you mobilised to the Army of
21 Republika Srpska?
22 A. Yes, I was mobilised.
23 Q. After being mobilised, did you see Zoran Zigic again?
24 A. I would see Zoran Zigic only when I came home on leave, when we
25 went home for a change of clothing, and that sort of thing.
1 Q. Could you tell me: As a member of the Croatian people, as a
2 Croat, why did you respond to the call-up to join the Serb army?
3 A. Why? It's a rather big question, but I'll try to answer it. One,
4 I accepted the authorities that were in Prijedor at the time; number 2, my
5 wife is Serb; and finally, I wanted to remain in the area where I was born
6 and where my property is. I had a nice job and I wanted to keep that job.
7 Q. Mr. Sikic, do you know when the Serbs took over power in Prijedor?
8 A. Yes, I do. On the 1st of April, 1992.
9 Q. I didn't quite hear the date. Would you be kind enough to repeat
10 the date?
11 A. In the morning of the 1st of April, 1992.
12 Q. After the takeover of power, did anything change for you? Did you
13 continue working?
14 A. Yes, I did. I continued working.
15 Q. After the takeover of power in Prijedor, did you see Zoran Zigic?
16 A. Yes, I would see him.
17 Q. Would you see him when he came home?
18 A. Yes, I saw him when he came home. Of course, I didn't see him at
20 Q. On those occasions, was he wearing a uniform?
21 A. Yes, he was wearing a uniform.
22 Q. What kind of uniform was he wearing?
23 A. A blue police uniform, camouflage.
24 Q. Did he continue to wear that blue camouflage uniform later on?
25 A. Afterwards he didn't, after 15 or 20 days, something like that. I
1 don't know.
2 Q. What kind of uniform did Zigic wear later on?
3 A. He wore a military camouflage uniform.
4 Q. Did he wear a cap of any kind?
5 A. Yes. He wore a beret.
6 Q. Do you remember the colour of the beret?
7 A. The beret? It was red.
8 Q. Do you remember, in that time period, did a part of -- did Zoran
9 have an injury on any part of his body?
10 A. Yes. He had an injury of the left hand; actually, his fingers.
11 Q. Do you know when Prijedor was attacked?
12 A. Prijedor? Prijedor was attacked a month after the takeover of
13 power, so it was the 30th of May, 1992.
14 Q. You said 30 days after the takeover of power. A moment ago in
15 answer to my question as to when power was taken over in Prijedor, you
16 said it was the 1st of April, 1992, so that's a month earlier. So what
17 would be the right date?
18 A. Between the 30th of March and the 1st of April was the takeover.
19 Q. During the takeover itself, do you know -- or rather, let me
20 rephrase that. When Prijedor was attacked, do you know whether there was
21 fighting in town?
22 A. As far as I know, but I was with my unit at the time, there was
24 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether there were any dead on
25 that day?
1 A. Yes. There were dead in Prijedor that day, both among the
2 policemen and the soldiers.
3 Q. After Prijedor was attacked, are you aware of the formation of
4 investigation centres?
5 A. Yes, I am aware that such centres were formed.
6 Q. Could you list them for us?
7 A. Keraterm, Omarska, Trnopolje.
8 Q. As a soldier in those days, did you know who was detained in those
9 investigation centres?
10 A. Persons were taken to those centres who would not accept the
11 authorities, people who refused to surrender their weapons and people who
12 took part in the attack on Prijedor.
13 Q. In what part of town is your family home?
14 A. My family home is in Cirkin Polje, which is on the slopes of Mount
15 Kozara, at the foot of Mount Kozara.
16 Q. Mr. Sikic, could you tell us what the ethnic composition was of
17 your neighbourhood? Were they all of the same ethnicity or of several
18 ethnic groups?
19 A. They belonged to several ethnic groups. It was multi-ethnic.
20 Q. Do you have any knowledge after the formation of these
21 investigation centres whether any of your neighbours were taken to one of
22 those three investigation centres?
23 A. From our neighbourhood or district, no one was taken to the
24 investigation centre.
25 Q. Do you know why?
1 A. Because nobody took part in the attack on Prijedor. They accepted
2 the authorities, and that is why there was no need.
3 Q. Do you know whether Zoran Zigic was a member of the army of
4 Republika Srpska?
5 A. Yes, he was a member of the army of Republika Srpska.
6 Q. Do you know as of when and which unit he belonged to?
7 A. He first belonged to a police unit, and then he transferred to
8 regular units, that is, the 43rd unit.
9 Q. Are you referring to a military formation?
10 A. Yes, a military formation.
11 Q. What does the 43rd mean?
12 A. It is the name of a unit, the number of the unit, or the military
13 post, as it was called.
14 Q. Mr. Sikic, could you tell us what you think about Zoran Zigic as a
15 neighbour before the war and during the war?
16 A. Zigic Zoran as a neighbour, he was an extremely good neighbour.
17 We socialised before the war, during the war. As neighbours, he would
18 help us. We would go fishing together, hunting before the war. We would
19 go on picnics. We helped one another whenever it was necessary. He was
20 an extremely good neighbour. The only thing was when he had a little too
21 much to drink.
22 Q. What was he like when he had too much to drink?
23 A. He had to be in the centre of attention.
24 Q. What do you mean by saying that?
25 A. Well, then everyone had to look at him, and he expected to be
1 treated as a Rambo. He liked to joke, to tell stories, to sing, to play.
2 Q. Was he querulous in that condition?
3 A. Yes, sometimes.
4 Q. Tell me, please, after the war operations had started and when you
5 were already in uniform and when Zoran was in uniform, did you -- were you
6 able to sense any change in his behaviour towards you because you were a
7 member of another ethnic group?
8 A. No, none whatsoever. We remained as close as ever. In fact, I
9 think he paid even greater attention to my family when I was not there.
10 He took even greater care of them.
11 Q. Tell me, please, were there any Muslims in your neighbourhood,
12 people of Muslim ethnicity?
13 A. Yes, there were, but mostly from mixed -- they were mostly mixed
15 Q. Did you happen to notice whether Zoran behaved towards those
16 people in a different way afterwards than he did before the war?
17 A. No, he didn't.
18 Q. Mr. Sikic, do you have any knowledge about an event when, in
19 Keraterm, several people were killed in the course of one night?
20 A. Yes, I do know about that.
21 Q. Do you know when that event took place?
22 A. That event took place between the 24th and 25th of July, 1992.
23 Q. Do you happen to remember where you were on that particular night?
24 A. That night, that night we were in the yard, in Zoran Zigic's yard
25 or, rather, his father's yard.
1 Q. And why were you there?
2 A. We went there because we had agreed to have a barbecue that
4 Q. Before that particular event, was it customary for you to have
5 barbecues in the Zigic house, and did they go to your home for barbecues?
6 A. Yes, that was no problem. They would either come to us or we
7 would go to them because we lived close by.
8 Q. Was that customary, usual?
9 A. Yes, it was always usual. Before the war, during the war as well.
10 Q. Can you remember when you arrived at the Zigic yard that evening?
11 A. At the Zigic yard? About 20 hours.
12 Q. Did anybody come with you on the occasion?
13 A. Yes, my wife came with me.
14 Q. Do you happen to remember in addition to you and your wife whether
15 there were any other people present in the Zigic yard that evening?
16 A. Yes. There were his parents, his wife, two daughters, and
17 afterwards some more people, young men, turned up.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. When you came to the Zigic yard, did you see Zoran in the yard?
21 Was he there?
22 A. Yes. He was there when we arrived.
23 Q. How many people were there on the occasion?
24 A. Well, they would come in and gather there. At about 10.00 p.m.,
25 there might have been about 10 of us.
1 Q. When you yourself came, you said that Zoran was there.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What state was he in?
4 A. Well, he had had quite a lot to drink, but not so much that he
5 wasn't able to stand.
6 Q. The people, the guests that gathered, can you remember whether you
7 all came at once or you came one by one and then all gathered there? What
8 was the time frame?
9 A. We didn't come all at once. We would come in one by one. We
10 would gather there. We gathered there.
11 Q. On that occasion, did some young men turn up who played some
13 A. Yes. Yes. There were two young men.
14 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may we go into
15 private session for a few moments now, please.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private
17 session, please, for a few moments.
18 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session.
16 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Ivica Sikic, you said a moment ago that the guests gathered
18 over a period of two hours, they kept coming in over that period of time.
19 Now, during that period of time, do you happen to know whether Zoran was
20 in the yard throughout that time?
21 A. On two occasions Zoran went to get some bread. That was the first
22 time. And as we had run out of drinks, he went to get more drinks. And I
23 would go back to my own home to bring some things like some more meat and
24 things like that.
25 Q. Can you tell us how long he was away when he went to get those
2 A. Well, not long. Just 10 to 15 minutes at the most.
3 Q. After all the guests had gathered, did Zoran leave the yard at
5 A. Until 10.00 p.m., Zoran did not leave the yard. I'm sorry. After
6 10.00 p.m., Zoran did not leave the yard, as far as I remember. He did
7 not leave the yard.
8 Q. Mr. Sikic, who left the Zigic yard first, you and your wife or
9 Zoran Zigic?
10 A. Zoran left first, before us.
11 Q. Where did Zoran go?
12 A. Zoran was dead drunk and he went into the house. That is to say,
13 I helped him get into the house and lie down.
14 Q. Can you tell us at what time Zoran went in to go to sleep?
15 A. Zoran went in at about midnight.
16 Q. You said that you helped him go in to lie down.
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Did you go into the house with him, actually?
19 A. Yes, I went into the house, into the kitchen, and helped him lie
20 down on the couch.
21 Q. Do you remember whether Zoran had any weapons on him then?
22 A. Yes, he did. He had a pistol, and as he was very drunk, he put
23 the pistol under the pillow.
24 Q. After Zoran lay down to sleep, where did you go?
25 A. We continued sitting around in the yard.
1 Q. Now, before midnight that same evening, did you happen to hear any
2 shooting in town? Was there any shooting before midnight?
3 A. Well, that was standard practice. You would hear sporadic
4 gunfire, shots going off, that kind of thing. That was usual, customary.
5 Q. Did anything unusual happen after midnight?
6 A. After midnight something unusual did happen.
7 Q. Can you tell us what?
8 A. Well, there was some strong shooting and then there was very heavy
9 shooting. There was a burst of gunfire, a long burst of gunfire with
10 intermittent pauses, but all this went on for quite some time.
11 Q. Did the guests that you were sitting around with in the yard make
12 any comments about that shooting in town?
13 A. Yes. Somebody said, "Well, someone's going to say again Zigic has
14 gone mad again."
15 Q. Did you know at the time where the shooting was happening and who
16 was doing the shooting?
17 A. No, I did not know.
18 Q. Where was Zoran at that time?
19 A. Zoran was in the kitchen, lying on the couch. He was dead drunk
20 at the time.
21 Q. How do you know that?
22 A. I know because I went to the WC several times, and as it's a glass
23 door, I would see him lying there, so that's how I know he was there.
24 Q. In view of his state of intoxication when you led him into the
25 house, did Zoran -- was Zoran able to leave the house? Was he capable of
1 leaving the house?
2 A. No, he wasn't capable, because he was so drunk. He was going
3 about on all fours, practically.
4 Q. The Zigic yard, can you describe it for us, for the Trial
5 Chamber? In relation to the town, where is the Zigic yard?
6 A. Well, the yard to the house of Zigic's parents is on an incline.
7 Prijedor is down in a valley, on a flat, whereas our houses are on a
8 slope, at an altitude of about 80, 90 metres above sea level, compared to
10 Q. Where was the Keraterm Investigation Centre located?
11 A. The investigation centre of Keraterm was located to the left of
12 the Prijedor-Banja Luka road.
13 Q. You said a moment ago, if I'm not wrong, that you would go hunting
14 often with Zoran.
15 A. Yes, but that was before the war.
16 Q. So I assume you'll be able to answer my following question. Can
17 you tell us, please, taking it as the crow flies, how far Keraterm is away
18 from the Zigic yard?
19 A. You say as the crow flies? Well, as the crow flies, the Zigic
20 yard and Keraterm is about 800 to 1.000 metres away.
21 Q. When did you leave the Zigic yard?
22 A. We left the Zigic yard between 3.00 and 4.00 a.m., perhaps 3.30,
23 but between 3.00 and 4.00 a.m. I can't say exactly.
24 Q. Did your wife go with you?
25 A. Yes, my wife left too.
1 Q. When you left for home, did you hear any shooting?
2 A. Yes, you could hear shooting, but it was sporadic, not as
4 Q. You said that your house was about 50 metres away from the Zigic
5 yard; is that right?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. When you arrived home, did you comment, make any comments to your
8 wife about the shooting? Did you and your wife comment about that?
9 A. No, we didn't comment about the shooting.
10 Q. Upon arriving home, did you know where the shooting was coming
12 A. No, I didn't know where the shooting was coming from.
13 Q. When did you learn something about that?
14 A. I learnt about it the next day when I went in to town and met my
15 colleagues there. We sat down in a cafe and that was what they were
16 talking about. They --
17 Q. And what did you learn?
18 A. My colleagues told me who had gone by there that a large number of
19 people were killed in Keraterm, had been killed in Keraterm.
20 Q. Mr. Sikic, at the beginning of your testimony you stated that you
21 do know something about Zoran's injury, wounding.
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Do you know that later on he was -- Zoran was injured again,
24 wounded again?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you remember when and where he was wounded?
2 A. On the 19th of August in Gomjenica.
3 Q. Mr. Sikic, do you happen to remember what year that was?
4 A. It was the month of August, 1992.
5 Q. When he was injured, was your son in the company of Zoran Zigic?
6 A. Yes, he was, unfortunately.
7 Q. How old was your son at the time?
8 A. He was 14 -- 13, 14.
9 Q. Do you know in what part of his body Zoran Zigic was injured on
10 that occasion?
11 A. He was injured around his chin.
12 Q. Where were you on that particular day?
13 A. I was with my unit at the front.
14 Q. How did you learn about this event and when did you learn about
16 A. I learnt about it in the evening because my -- do you want me to
18 Q. Yes, please go ahead.
19 A. I wasn't there that day, and in the evening when my commander came
20 for consultations in Prijedor, I learnt about it. He took me into a room
21 and he explained to me what had happened nice and slowly. And he gave me
22 permission to take a car in the morning to go to Prijedor and to settle
23 those problems because the vehicle had been confiscated.
24 Q. What vehicle was that about?
25 A. It was my own private car.
1 Q. On that day, did Zoran Zigic use your personal car?
2 A. Yes, he did. He used it.
3 Q. Was your son with him in the car on that occasion?
4 A. Yes, my son was with him.
5 Q. On that day, was your son kidnapped by Zoran Zigic, perhaps?
6 A. No, not at all.
7 Q. How, then, did it happen that Zigic was driving your car?
8 A. Well, that was quite usual. If I wasn't there and he needed the
9 car, he would drive the car, and I would be -- I would drive his if I
10 needed it.
11 Q. In Cirkin Polje, which is where your house is located -- or
12 rather, let me rephrase that. Who came to Cirkin Polje before, your
13 family or Zigic's family?
14 A. No, Zigic's family was there first.
15 Q. When did you yourself come to Cirkin Polje?
16 A. In 1980.
17 Q. Since 1980, have you known Zoran Zigic since 1980?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What kind of hair did Zoran Zigic have at the time?
20 A. He had black hair.
21 Q. Did his hair colour ever change to the present day? Did he ever
22 change his hair colour?
23 A. No, never.
24 Q. Did you ever see him dyeing his hair? It's modern today to do
25 that, so did you ever see him dye his hair?
1 A. No, never.
2 Q. Did you ever see since 1980 Zoran Zigic wearing earrings?
3 A. No, he never had an earring, wore an earring.
4 Q. You also said that you saw him when you came home on leave from
5 your unit, that you would see him then, and that Zoran was wearing a
6 uniform at the time.
7 A. Yes, he was wearing a uniform.
8 Q. Did you see him armed then?
9 A. At the time, everybody carried a weapon.
10 Q. Did you ever see Zigic, Zoran, use black gloves with the fingers
11 cut off?
12 A. No, I didn't.
13 Q. And the last question, my last question for you, Mr. Sikic, how
14 could you describe Zigic, Zoran, as a person from that time and generally
15 speaking? What kind of a man is Zoran Zigic? How could you describe him
16 for us?
17 A. I could describe Zigic, Zoran, in the following way: Before the
18 war he was a very good friend, a good comrade. When he was sober, he was
19 all milk and honey, but when he would have some drink, then he would like
20 to be the focus of his attention, and he would be prepared to give you
21 blood from his own veins.
22 I can only speak for myself. During the war he was always proper,
23 always good as a neighbour, as a friend, as a co-fighter. I don't know
24 what else I could say.
25 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Sikic.
1 A. You're welcome.
2 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further
3 questions for this witness.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
5 Mr. Deretic.
6 Witness, you are now going to answer questions put to you by the
7 Prosecutor. I think it is going to be Ms. Susan Somers who will be
8 cross-examining you.
9 Your witness.
10 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, do I understand that no Defence counsel
11 wish to ask questions? I can proceed, then.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I should have asked. I see
13 negative signs from the other Defence counsel. Thank you very much.
14 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:
16 Q. I'd like to pick up on a point you just made, Mr. Sikic, actually,
17 two points. One is, what is your wife's first name, please?
18 A. My wife's name is Zoka Sikic.
19 Q. And did your wife appear in this very courtroom earlier this week
20 also on behalf of Mr. Zigic? Is that the same person?
21 A. Yes, she did.
22 Q. You mentioned that you first learned about Mr. Zigic's August
23 injury from your commander. Did your son not tell you about that injury?
24 A. I'm afraid there must be a misunderstanding regarding this point.
25 The attorney asked me when Zigic was wounded for the second time. I said
1 in Gomjenica, and my commander told me the details about what happened on
2 that 19th of August, that my son was there in the car.
3 Q. And did your son himself tell you about those injuries?
4 A. Yes. When I came home he told me the whole story, of course, as
5 he would to a parent.
6 Q. Your son told you the whole story. Now, did your son tell you
7 what preceded the injuries, where he and Mr. Zigic were just before the
8 injuries happened?
9 A. No, he didn't tell me where they went. He just told me that they
10 were shot at, at the checkpoint, that Zoran was hit in the chin, and that
11 he fell over him, and that he thought that Zoran was dead, and he started
12 crying. And I wasn't interested in any further details.
13 Q. Did it concern you that your son found himself in a rather
14 dangerous situation, in other words, in a car where the driver was being
15 shot at -- actually, in your car where the driver whom you entrusted with
16 that car was being shot at? Did that concern you?
17 A. It didn't concern me that my son was with Zoran in the car, but of
18 course I was concerned by the shooting. Like any parent, I was
20 Q. Did your son tell you that Mr. Zigic had taken your car and gone
21 to the home of an individual, a Muslim individual named Edin Ganic, and
22 had demanded money from Mr. Ganic? Did he tell you that?
23 A. No, he didn't tell me anything about that. Maybe he was hiding it
24 from me.
25 Q. Did he tell you that at Mr. Ganic's house on the 19th of August,
1 1992, there was a Serb woman named Mara, either Kusanjic or Kusanjic, who
2 was visiting the Ganics? Did he mention that?
3 A. No, he didn't mention that.
4 Q. Did he mention that Mr. Zigic had stabbed this Serb woman Mara who
5 was visiting Ganics? Did he mention that she was stabbed by Mr. Zigic?
6 A. No. No, he didn't.
7 Q. How often have you --
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, yes?
9 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in answer to a
10 question by my learned friend whether the son had told his father anything
11 about visiting the Ganics, the witness literally said that his son told
12 him nothing, so I don't see the point of the three follow -- the questions
13 that followed linked to the visit to the Ganic house.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, your response?
15 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. The witness said that the son told
16 his father, as a son would, the whole story, and I'm inquiring into the
17 parts which go into the whole story, and apparently not all of the parts
18 were told to make the whole story. I think that I can test the witness's
19 knowledge of his version of what was told by trying to understand his
20 understanding of our facts in our possession.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Put your questions, Ms. Susan
22 Somers. Continue, please.
23 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. On that particular question
24 I'm satisfied with the answer.
25 Q. I'd like to ask you, what is your young son's name, please, the
1 son who was with Mr. Zigic at the time, his name?
2 A. Zeljko.
3 Q. Did any police officers come up to you afterward and ask about
4 Zeljko's being in the presence of Mr. Zigic at that incident?
5 A. Policemen? Only when I came home, I went to the military police
6 and took back my car. I was given the keys, and afterwards, I went back
7 to my unit.
8 Q. Did you ask Zigic yourself about the incident at the checkpoint?
9 Did it concern you enough that your car was being fired at, at a
10 checkpoint erected by the Serbs in whose army you were serving?
11 A. No, I didn't ask Zigic, because I didn't see him.
12 Q. Where were you assigned to fight when you were mobilised into the
13 army of the Serbs or into the Army of Republika Srpska?
14 A. When I went to the Army of Republika Srpska, we were in the area
15 of Mount Kozara.
16 Q. When did you actually get mobilised? Date, please, month and
18 A. The 15th of April, 1992.
19 Q. Did you take part in any of the JNA actions against your own
20 people in Croatia?
21 A. Yes, I did take part.
22 Q. Where and when, please?
23 A. The 16th of September, 1990 -- or 1991, I'm sorry.
24 Q. In other words, you, as a member of the army, were fighting
25 against Croats in Croatia; is that correct?
1 A. It is correct, but in those days it was the Yugoslav People's
2 Army. There was Yugoslavia, and it was normal for me to respond to
3 mobilisation and to join the unit I was assigned to and I belonged to.
4 Q. And to fight against your own people, was that normal?
5 A. I responded to the call-up to my unit. I didn't know against whom
6 I was going to fight.
7 Q. And you were taken to Croatia how?
8 A. I was taken there together with my unit, which is quite normal.
9 Q. Have you been to Croatia since, since it became an independent
11 A. Yes, I have been, twice. No, I'm sorry. Three times last year.
12 Q. Going back to the evening of the 24th of July, please clarify: At
13 whose house was this barbecue taking place? Was it Zigic's house, the
14 accused, or the house of his parents?
15 A. Zigic's parents and Zigic lived together in the same house. The
16 same house.
17 Q. From your description of your relationship, it appears that you
18 were very close to Zoran Zigic. Did you have a relationship that would be
19 described as almost family?
20 A. No, we were not family, but we were close, because we have a
21 rule: First look at your neighbour and then at the sun [Realtime
22 transcript read in error "son"]. So a neighbour is somebody very
24 Q. Did you know a fair amount about Mr. Zigic's background?
25 A. About Zigic's past? All I knew was his work development, his
2 Q. Were you still close to Zigic at the end of 1993?
3 A. In 1993 I saw Zigic somewhere around the middle of August, at the
4 marketplace, and then I didn't see him until today.
5 Q. Had you stopped socialising with Zoran Zigic at that point? If
6 so, could you tell us why?
7 A. I didn't stop socialising. That day he was simply taken into
9 Q. For what?
10 A. I am not able to explain that for you. I don't know why.
11 Q. When -- I'm sorry. When was he taken into custody, please?
12 A. I don't know the date, but it was in August.
13 Q. Do you know the nature of the crime for which he was taken into
14 custody, if in fact it was a crime, or would there have been any other
15 reason he would have been taken into custody, as far as you know?
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.
17 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, according to Rule 90,
18 paragraph (E) of the Rules of Evidence, the cross-examination should be
19 limited to the subject of the examination-in-chief. It seems to me that
20 my learned friend has gone beyond that framework.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic. We have
22 adopted a slightly more flexible policy; otherwise we'll get involved in a
23 discussion which will have no end. So in any event, we have decided that
24 the main limiting factor will be the time. But it is true that if
25 Ms. Susan Somers starts asking the witness about a football game or
1 something like that, we will stop her, but that is not the case just now.
2 So please proceed, Ms. Susan Somers.
3 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I just wanted to just
4 confirm for the record that, of course, as we've indicated, we always
5 follow Rule 90(H), which instructs us to put the case to the witness, so
6 we do try to take that Rule into account when we do our cross-examination.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, we are not
8 going to engage in that discussion. That is your interpretation, but
9 there are other interpretations, as you know. So as not to embark upon
10 that discussion, please proceed with your questions.
11 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Pursuant to my initial question to you, do you know what it was
13 Mr. Zigic was taken into custody for on that date?
14 A. As far as I know, as far as I heard, there was an accident in an
16 Q. An accident in an agency. And what kind of agency would you be
17 talking about?
18 A. A tourist agency.
19 Q. And what happened at that tourist agency, if you can tell us,
21 A. As far as I know, a killing occurred.
22 MS. SOMERS: Would the registrar be kind enough to distribute
23 Prosecution's Exhibit 3/244. And if you would be kind enough to put it on
24 the ELMO as well, I'd be grateful.
25 Q. This document, Mr. Sikic, dated 16 of June, 1993, is a criminal
1 report which was produced by Bogdan Delic of the Public Security Section,
2 as its chief, concerning an incident at a travel agency, involving a
3 death, allegedly caused by Zoran Zigic. The death involved a woman named
4 Danka Petkovic. Is this the incident, perhaps, that you may have been
5 thinking of, a killing at a travel agency involving Zigic in Prijedor?
6 A. Yes, I had that case in mind.
7 Q. Now, do you know the allegation is that Zigic fired a
8 7.62-millimetre calibre pistol on the premises of a travel agency, into
9 which a woman, Danka Petkovic, had fled, having been in his presence and
10 having fled from his presence, and by which shot she was killed? Do you
11 know the outcome of this criminal investigation that is evidenced in this
13 A. No, I don't know the outcome of the case, because I was not in the
14 presence of Zoran Zigic.
15 Q. Did it concern you that Zoran Zigic, a man to whom you have
16 entrusted your car, your son, had been brought under such suspicion?
17 A. I apologise. I didn't understand the question.
18 Q. I'll rephrase that. Perhaps I wasn't clear. When you learned
19 about this, did it worry you that this was the man to whom you had
20 entrusted your vehicle and your child?
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.
22 A. No.
23 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the incident that the
24 Prosecution is referring to occurred a year after the events in Gomjenica,
25 so the questions being put by the Prosecutor in terms of the time when
1 they occurred are absolutely inappropriate. So that this incident about
2 which the Prosecutor is questioning the witness occurred in 1993, and the
3 event with the witness' son in 1992. We see no purpose to these
5 MS. SOMERS: Yes, please, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you wish to respond,
7 Ms. Somers?
8 MS. SOMERS: This witness is in Court in the year 2001 to tell us
9 what a good neighbour, what a helpful person and a great guy Zoran Zigic
10 was. I think it would be appropriate for us to factor in on what basis he
11 has arrived at this conclusion, and this incident, if it in fact occurred,
12 occurred in the intervening time.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, do you accept this
15 THE INTERPRETER: Mike please. Mike please. Mike please. Mike
17 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] The Defence just wishes to underline
18 that this incident occurred a whole year after the events with Zigic's
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You don't have to repeat what
21 you just said. You can't repeat what you just said.
22 Continue, Ms. Susan Somers.
23 MS. SOMERS:
24 Q. Were you also concerned about an incident, I believe it may have
25 been - I want to make sure it's the correct date - of 20 October -- no,
1 I'm sorry. It probably may have been in connection with the shooting
2 where your son was in the car with Zigic. Did you eventually retrieve
3 your weapon that was in the car with Mr. Zigic?
4 A. Yes, I was given back my weapon.
5 MS. SOMERS: If the usher would be kind enough, very quickly, to
6 distribute Prosecutor's 3/245. It would just take a moment to run through
7 this. Thank you. It is from 20 October 1992.
8 Q. In front of you, Mr. Sikic, is a document by a Mr. Majstorovic,
9 dated 20 October 1992, from the Public Security Station in Prijedor, which
10 is returning to you or authorising to you the return of your pistol, which
11 was in your vehicle when the car - I'm sorry - when the pistol was
12 confiscated from Zoran Zigic. It is a Zastava. The pistol is a
13 7.65-millimetre. Was this, in fact, the weapon that was in the car?
14 A. Yes. It is my personal weapon for which I have a regular license,
15 and it was in the car.
16 Q. And was this in the car at the time Mr. Zigic was shot on August
17 19th? Is this the same incident being referred to, to the best of your
19 A. Yes, it is 765 millimetre pistol, and it was in the glove box in
20 the car.
21 Q. Was the car also confiscated and returned to you?
22 A. Yes. The car was confiscated and returned to me the next day when
23 I came from my unit.
24 Q. Was the glove compartment locked or unlocked? Did you keep it in
25 the glove compartment, in a locked glove compartment or unlocked?
1 A. You can't lock the glove compartment in my car. It doesn't have a
3 Q. How far was the point where the vehicle which contained this
4 weapon and your son was located, how far was that point located from your
5 home? The point of confiscation, the distance from where you live.
6 A. I don't understand the question. You mean where they clashed,
7 where the police and the army --
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. -- or where the car was?
10 Q. The point at which Mr. Zigic was shot and stopped in your car, how
11 far is that point from your home?
12 A. About seven or eight kilometres from my house.
13 Q. Did your son tell you he apparently had to walk seven or eight
14 kilometres to get home that day?
15 A. No. The military police brought him home in a car.
16 Q. And were you home when he came home?
17 A. No, I wasn't. I told you, I've explained that.
18 Q. Was your wife home?
19 A. I think she wasn't at home, either, because our neighbour's father
20 had died and she went to tend the funeral.
21 Q. And no one called you from the military police to tell you your
22 son was in a vehicle that had been involved in a shooting; is that your
24 A. No one informed me until my commander did.
25 Q. The name of your commander, please, first name and last name.
1 A. Zeljko. I can't recall his surname. He was a Captain Zeljko.
2 Q. Returning to the evening of the 24th of July, you said you had
3 gone to the WC several times. Had you been drinking as well? Did you
4 drink beer or some other alcoholic beverage that night that sent you to
5 the WC several times?
6 A. I drank beer, only beer.
7 Q. How much beer did you drink?
8 A. I didn't count.
9 Q. Were you in a pretty good mood?
10 A. Of course, yes.
11 Q. And you managed yourself to carry -- well, let me ask you, how
12 tall are you and what's your weight, please? What was it at that time?
13 Your height and weight at that time.
14 A. 175 centimetres tall, and maybe I had 70 kilos in those days.
15 Q. And you described the condition of Mr. Zigic as something like all
16 fours. Were you able to carry, you yourself having had a fair amount to
17 drink, able to carry another man you said had a fair amount to drink to
18 the bedroom or to the sofa?
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.
20 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my learned friend
21 from the Prosecution is saying things that the witness never said, and
22 especially not that he went on all fours. So could my learned friend
23 rephrase her question, please.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.
25 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I will --
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The witness said that he was not
2 capable of doing it. I remember him saying that. That is what I heard,
3 that he wouldn't be capable of doing that, even. So please proceed.
4 MS. SOMERS:
5 Q. And so my question to you was, were you able yourself to carry a
6 man whom you describe as being incapable of going on his own to the sofa
7 from the outside area?
8 A. I assisted Zoran, and this was about midnight, to get into the
9 house. So we didn't understand one another. I assisted Zoran to get into
10 the house. And what you mentioned about going on all fours, when I was
11 asked whether he could leave the house, I said that the only way he could
12 possibly go out was on all fours, and I helped him to get into the house
13 and lie down. I didn't say that he went in on all fours.
14 Q. Now, he was in such bad condition that you allowed him, you
15 yourself somewhat inebriated, allowed him to take his own pistol out and
16 put it under his pillow; is that right? That's what you said.
17 A. Yes, he put his pistol under his pillow. I laughed at that saying
18 to myself, "He's so drunk, and yet he's put his pistol under his pillow."
19 Q. Well, apparently other people had commented about him and the use
20 of pistols when the noise from Prijedor town was heard, the repeated,
21 non-stop firing was heard, because someone said, "Oh, there goes crazy
22 Zigic again." What did you mean by "again"? Those are your words,
24 A. Whatever happened in town, everyone thought that Zigic was behind
25 it, but it wasn't just Zigic. There were other Zigics.
1 Q. Tell me, please, you were at that point a soldier in the VRS; is
2 that correct? That night on the barbecue you were still a mobilised
3 soldier; am I right?
4 A. Yes, you are right. I was still a soldier.
5 Q. Now, as a soldier, you heard gunfire, repeated gunfire over a long
6 period of time, it appears some perhaps three hours, in the centre of your
7 town. As a soldier, did you think perhaps it might be prudent to check
8 out why there was gunfire in your town?
9 A. I was on leave then. It wasn't up to me to do that.
10 Q. Did you expect to get a phone call from a commander and say,
11 "Check it out," or is not every soldier responsible for his territory?
12 A. No one could call me from Prijedor, nor did they need to because
13 my unit was stationed at the Gradac war front.
14 Q. Are you telling us that if in this mixed neighbourhood that you
15 said you lived in suddenly someone, perhaps you describe from the enemy
16 camp, burst in and opened fire on your barbecue that night, because you
17 were on leave, you would not respond because you were on leave? Is that
18 what you're telling us?
19 A. That would be self-defence.
20 Q. Well, how did you know that it wasn't necessary to defend the town
21 of Prijedor? After all, four hours of repeated, out-of-the-ordinary
22 gunfire would cause someone to think, wouldn't it? Or did you know what
23 was happening, perhaps?
24 A. No, I didn't know what was happening. And regarding the town,
25 there were specially designated units within whose area of responsibility
1 it was.
2 Q. Were Croats killed in the massacre that night, do you know?
3 A. Probably, yes, because they were detained there.
4 Q. Did you bother to find out if anyone you knew may have been killed
5 in that massacre, or did you not care, perhaps?
6 A. No, I don't know. None of mine were there, and I didn't inquire.
7 Q. You didn't inquire if anyone you knew was there, or you just
8 didn't inquire period?
9 A. I didn't inquire at all. There were some friends and comrades of
10 mine there, and I didn't want to have anything to do with it.
11 Q. Did you take part in any of the cleansing operations that occurred
12 in the territory of Prijedor municipality?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Which ones, please, date and place?
15 A. I can't remember the date, and the place is Biscani.
16 Q. Were you present in the cleansing of Kozarac? Were you involved
17 of that?
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, excuse me. To
19 use this word "cleansing," perhaps you should use another term. I
20 apologise for intervening. It's almost a legal conclusion. Perhaps we
21 should limit ourselves to facts at this stage.
22 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I'd be happy to if I can find a document
23 in which I believe it is referred to. Excuse me for just a moment, if you
24 would indulge me.
25 Q. For the sake of this question, I will ask you if you were involved
1 in the takeover by the Serbs of the town of Kozarac, and that takeover
2 would involve the rounding up and the removal of the non-Serb population?
3 A. No, I was not involved.
4 Q. Were you aware of the participation by your good friend and
5 neighbour Zoran Zigic in the intervention platoon of the Centar SUP in --
6 MS. SOMERS: As it was referred to in a document that I would be
7 happy to have put on the ELMO, but I will not seek it to introduce it. It
8 would help if the usher would please distribute the document dated -- the
9 date is in the first paragraph, 31 May. It is not a signed document, but
10 it does bear a name.
11 Just for identification, to make it easier, it would be
12 Prosecutor's 3/246, and it appears the date may be the one that is
13 referred to in the first paragraph. This is from the Prijedor collection,
14 and it purports to have been composed by, although I do not see a
15 signature, composed by Zoran Zigic, and it may never have been completed.
16 However, it makes reference to a 31 May 1992 participation by Zigic in
17 connection with the intervention platoon, and again, the cleansing of the
18 town is -- of Prijedor --
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.
20 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is clear from the
21 question of my learned friend that the Prosecution is making conclusions.
22 She herself is not sure whether this is a statement given by the accused,
23 the more so as the text cannot be read, nor is his signature appended.
24 And still less is there evidence that it was compiled by Zigic as alleged
25 by my learned friend.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.
2 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. Because it was found -- it
3 was taken in the Prijedor collection and it purports to have some
4 connection. And again, I'm not seeking to introduce it, I'm asking
5 questions from it. I think that I could get a yes or no answer if I ask
6 for the facts that purport to be contained --
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes, okay.
8 MS. SOMERS: And that was all I wanted to do.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [No translation]
10 MS. SOMERS: Of course.
11 Q. This document states, and I'd like to get your input on it,
12 please: "On 31 May 1992, I participated with the intervention platoon of
13 the Centar SUP in the operation of cleansing the town. The movement of
14 the unit was in the direction of SUP, Sports Hall, JNA Street, Stari
15 Grad," and then it proceeds and discusses a number of events, talking
16 about what was found, found dozens of rifles, pistols, et cetera.
17 And then the second to the last paragraph reads: "I participated
18 in the operations in Hambarine, Kozarusa, Kozarac, Trnopolje, Brdjani, and
19 lastly in Prijedor. I fought and will fight for my town. I cannot deny
20 that there have been some oversights in all of this, but ask you for
22 My question to you is, did Mr. Zigic ever -- did you know as a
23 soldier that Mr. Zigic may have been involved in these operations?
24 A. No, I did not know. We weren't in the same unit.
25 Q. What unit were you in again, please, if you could clarify that?
1 A. The 5th Kozara.
2 Q. Did you participate in the takeover of the village of Hambarine in
3 the Brdo area?
4 A. No, I did not take part.
5 Q. You had no role at all? If a search were done on records, your
6 name would not appear as one of the soldiers who was involved in that?
7 A. No, it would not appear; I think, at least.
8 Q. You think, at least? You think, at least? You're not sure?
9 A. I'm only sure about Biscani, not the others.
10 MS. SOMERS: No further questions. Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, your witness.
12 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just very briefly, a
13 few questions.
14 Re-examined by Mr. Deretic:
15 Q. On page 54 of the transcript, line 9, the statement made by the
16 witness was not properly translated, so if I may, I should like to ask the
17 question once again. What we heard, and it entered the transcript, was
18 that the witness had said, "It is customary to first look at the neighbour
19 and then the sun." [Realtime transcript read in error "son"] And in the
20 transcript it says, on page 54, line 9, "First look at [indiscernible] and
21 then the son," s-o-n, and it should be --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's note, s-u-n.
23 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. So I should just like that to be put right. And it's wrong
25 again. So could the witness repeat the custom that he quoted, the usual
1 thing that is customary in our parts, what the expression was? Could the
2 witness repeat what he said? What did you say?
3 A. The rule with us is: First look at your neighbour and then the
4 s-u-n sun.
5 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] And what it said in the transcript
6 is s-o-n. So just a brief intervention.
7 THE INTERPRETER: It is s -- the sun, s-u-n, the interpreter's
8 note, and not the son, s-o-n.
9 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] And two brief questions, if I may.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.
11 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Sikic, the incident that occurred in the Prijedor agency when
13 Danka Petkovic, the young girl, was killed, do you know what her ethnicity
15 A. Danka Petkovic, you mean? Petkovic, the surname Petkovic, it's
16 mostly Serbs.
17 Q. And one more question: Do you know whether Zoran Zigic went to
18 prison for that crime?
19 A. I know he went to prison.
20 Q. After that, did he get out of prison?
21 A. As far as I remember, he did not get out of prison.
22 Q. You mean until he gave himself up to The Hague Tribunal?
23 A. Yes, until then.
24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Deretic.
2 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.
3 JUDGE RIAD: No questions. Thank you, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Judge Wald.
5 Questioned by the Court:
6 JUDGE WALD: I have only one question, Mr. Zigic. You told us
7 that on the night of the shootings, when you were at the barbecue, that
8 you took Mr. Zigic in or you helped get him into the kitchen onto the
9 couch around midnight, I think, and I believe you also told us that you
10 and your wife left the barbecue sometime around 3.00 or 3.30, something
11 like that. Now, my question -- and you told us that in between that time
12 you went to the bathroom several times and you could see through a glass
13 or some partition that Mr. Zigic was still lying down on the couch. Is
14 that basically what you've testified to us?
15 A. Well, yes, that's basically it.
16 JUDGE WALD: I have only one question about that, and that is:
17 Could you estimate for us the last time, the time of your last visit to
18 the bathroom in which you looked through and actually saw Mr. Zigic lying
19 on the couch? It's obviously sometime between midnight and 3.30, but just
20 an estimate of what time the last time you actually, with your own eyes,
21 saw him lying on the couch.
22 A. From between 1.30 to 2.00 a.m., that was the last time I went in.
23 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge
1 I myself have a question. You mentioned the shots round about
2 midnight. Was it frequent to have things like that happen, shooting,
3 shots, at around that time of night? Was that customary?
4 A. Well, I don't know how to explain that and I can't really say,
5 because I wasn't at home very often; I was off with my unit. But that's
6 how it happened that night.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But can we say that in times of
8 conflict there was shooting all around, or was it very rare to hear
10 A. Well, it was a regular thing to hear gunshots. Sometimes it was
11 sporadic gunfire, sometimes there was a burst of gunfire, but that night
12 there was a particular amount of shooting.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. We have no
14 further questions for you, Witness. Thank you for coming, once again, and
15 we wish you a safe journey back to your place of residence. I am now
16 going to ask the usher to accompany you out of the courtroom.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should like to thank you, Your
18 Honours, too, for your proper conduct and being so nice to me. Thank
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] This brings us to our lunch
22 break, so let us adjourn for lunch and resume afterwards.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.47 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.44 p.m.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
1 Ms. Susan Somers, may we now hear you on the documents.
2 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution wishes to
3 move into evidence its Exhibits 3/244 and 3/245.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.
5 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence of
6 Mr. Zoran Zigic has no objection to the proposal just made by the
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you. Exhibits
9 3/244 and 3/245 have been admitted into evidence. Thank you.
10 Mr. Deretic, have we got another witness for this afternoon?
11 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence of
12 Mr. Zoran Zigic calls its fifth witness, Mr. Nedeljko Muzicka.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How many witnesses do you have
14 for tomorrow, Mr. Deretic? For this week, that is.
15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] We have one witness for tomorrow,
16 but, Mr. President, it might take a little longer, at least -- but we hope
17 to get through that witness by the end of the working day.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So that will be all the
21 witnesses for this week, will it? We'll get through them all? Very well.
22 Good afternoon. Can you hear me, Witness?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will now read the solemn
25 declaration handed to you by the usher, please.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Try and get
4 yourself comfortable. Let me start off by thanking you for coming. You
5 will start off by answering questions put to you by Mr. Deretic.
6 Mr. Deretic, your witness.
7 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 WITNESS: NEDELJKO MUZICKA
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Examined by Mr. Deretic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Muzicka, can you hear me?
12 A. Yes, I can.
13 Q. Would you be so kind as to tell us your full name and surname,
15 A. My name is Nedeljko Muzicka, Muzicka, Nedeljko.
16 Q. What is your father's name?
17 A. Slavko.
18 Q. And your mother?
19 A. Marija.
20 Q. Where and when were you born?
21 A. 21st of October, 1956, in Prijedor.
22 Q. Where do you reside today?
23 A. I live in Prijedor today.
24 Q. What is your ethnic group?
25 A. I am a Ukrainian by ethnicity.
1 Q. Are you married?
2 A. Yes, I am.
3 Q. Do you have any children?
4 A. Yes, I have two children.
5 Q. What is your profession?
6 A. I am a locksmith.
7 Q. Can you tell us briefly where you did your education?
8 A. I went to primary school in Prijedor and secondary school in
9 Slovenia to Ljubljana. I worked there for two and a half years, in fact,
10 when I had finished my trades school. And the rest of my life I have
11 lived in Prijedor, that is to say, up until the present day.
12 Q. Are you employed?
13 A. Yes, I am. I work in the AutoTransport company of Prijedor.
14 Q. Mr. Muzicka, do you know Zoran Zigic?
15 A. Yes, I know him very well. I've known him since early childhood.
16 Q. Do you know where the Zigic's house is?
17 A. Yes, I do. It's about 300 to 400 metres as the crow flies away
18 from my own house.
19 Q. Is your family one that has lived in Prijedor for a long time, one
20 of old standing?
21 A. Well, yes. My mother was born where we now have a house, and my
22 father brought the plot of land where we live today, and he came from
23 Maricka, which is not far from Prijedor, but I was born there and that's
24 where I live today.
25 Q. Is your house in the same settlement where the Zigic parents'
1 house is?
2 A. Yes, it's the same settlement. It's called Cirkin Polje. And
3 that is where Zoran came to live, actually, to my own street. I can't say
4 exactly when he came, but he might have been in fourth or fifth form,
5 primary school, so we spent out childhood years together and then they
6 built a house a little further off from us. But all that is very close
7 by. I said it's about three to four hundred metres away as the crow
9 Q. Mr. Muzicka, did Zoran grow up in his parents' family home?
10 A. Well, yes. They used to live as tenants in our own street, but
11 then they built a house of their own. I'm not sure when exactly that was,
12 the exact date, but then Zoran went to live with his parents in the house
13 that they had built.
14 Q. So from when Zoran arrived in the settlement where your house was
15 located, were you friends from those early days?
16 A. Yes, we were, and as I say, we lived just 50 metres away from each
17 other. That's where they came to live first. And we were all of the same
18 generation. The difference was just two or three years, so that we are
19 tied by generation ties. And mostly they were boys living in that area,
20 so that we would play together and grow up together.
21 Q. While you were growing up and when you were young men, youngsters,
22 did you spend more time together later on?
23 A. Yes. We spent a lot of time together up until the war, and then
24 we each got married and we had to focus on our families more, and we each
25 went our ways. We had jobs, we had our families, so we saw less of each
1 other then. But up until the war, we were practically -- we were together
2 practically all the time. We would celebrate New Year's Eve together and
3 the 1st of May celebrations, and did other things of that kind.
4 Q. How would you describe Zoran Zigic as a person?
5 A. You would have to live with Zoran for many years to get to know
6 him really well, and when I say that, what I mean is that it would be
7 difficult to actually get to know him in a short space of time. We had
8 some wonderful events and a very good friendship. But from time to time
9 we were all -- we were all -- all of us, both of us, were restless, and
10 restless spirits, and so sometimes we would get into brawls. But this was
11 never on a nationalistic basis, because we were all a mixed population and
12 nobody asked anybody else what nationality they were, what ethnicity they
14 Q. What was his character like?
15 A. Well, he was a boisterous spirit, a restless spirit, if I can put
16 it that way. I must say that. And he was a happy person. He would give
17 you everything he had and never leave you at loose ends. But under the
18 effects of alcohol - and we all drank when we were young, so we didn't
19 need much to set us going - then he would become a little more
20 aggressive. Because, you know, we're not all the same. We don't all
21 behave the same when we've had something to drink.
22 Q. Do you wish to say that Zoran drank?
23 A. Well, I don't mean that he was an alcoholic. Zoran wasn't an
24 alcoholic. But there was a youth centre and we would all go to that youth
25 centre and stick around, because there was not much else to do. There
1 weren't any discotheques at that time, so we would go to this youth
2 centre, and we were the main ones there. But Zoran was not an alcoholic,
3 no. But we all did like to try to prove ourselves, to prove our manhood,
4 so we would drink a bit and that kind of thing.
5 Q. Did you see Zoran during the war?
6 A. I last saw Zoran when I visited his house, and that might have
7 been in May 1992, sometime thereabouts. I and my kum, Zoran's very good
8 friend, were there. We went to visit Zoran, but we didn't stay long. We
9 had a cup of coffee and perhaps two beers, and then the war set us apart.
10 We were thrown to different corners and I didn't see him after that, and
11 that last meeting was in May 1992.
12 Q. Do you know whether during that time Zoran drank more than usual?
13 A. I can't say with certainty, but we all drank more, and the war did
14 this to us. We all had more worries, and so probably we all drank more.
15 I know I did, so I can only assume that he did too. But as I say, I
16 didn't actually see him during that period, so I can't say anything with
18 Q. Mr. Muzicka, in the settlement where your house is located and the
19 house of Zoran's parents, and Zoran's too, in that locality, what was the
20 national composition of the inhabitants?
21 A. The majority were Serbs, and our particular area, the area where I
22 was born and where my house is and where Zoran's parents' were tenants,
23 where they came to live first, those are people like my mother. They came
24 from Czechoslovakia. We call them Pemci. They were of Czech origin. But
25 in Cirkin Polje there were a small number of Muslims too, but as I say,
1 the majority population were Serbs.
2 Q. Were there any Croats?
3 A. Well, as I say, where we lived, they were people of Czech origin.
4 I wouldn't say that they were actually Bosnian Croats. They were Czechs,
5 and their origins and roots were in Czechoslovakia.
6 Q. Do you know that what their religion was?
7 A. Yes. They were Catholics.
8 Q. Mr. Nedeljko, after the war broke out in the former
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina in Prijedor municipality, did you feel any changes in
10 Zoran's attitude towards people, especially people of different -- from
11 different ethnicities?
12 A. Let me tell you one thing. In our settlement there was never
13 anything like that, and when I say that, I say that with absolute
15 He came once and he brought a box of cigarettes to a woman. I
16 didn't see him then, but my parents said that Zoran had been. And if he
17 had done anything to harm anybody, he wouldn't have been able to take one
18 step forward. And probably --
19 Q. Could you please slow down, Witness, for purposes of the
21 A. So he would have had to deal with me if he had done anything
22 amiss, but I don't think that it ever entered his mind to do anything of
23 that kind in the environment where he grew up, and I say that with
24 absolute certainty.
25 Q. After the beginning of the war, were you mobilised into the Army
1 of Republika Srpska?
2 A. Yes, I was mobilised.
3 Q. Do you know whether Zoran was mobilised?
4 A. Yes. I had heard from my kum that Zoran, too, had been mobilised,
5 but I don't know which unit he was in.
6 Q. A moment ago you said that you are a Ukrainian by ethnicity.
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. What made you respond to the call-up by the Republika Srpska army?
9 A. Well, it was logical, a logical follow-on from the events, because
10 as I've already said, we grew up there without any feelings of extreme
11 nationalism. For example, my wife is a Serb; my brother-in-law is a Serb;
12 my kum is a Serb, and a kum is very important where we come from.
13 And when we received our call-up to mobilise and to go to the war,
14 we all responded because my head isn't worth more than the heads of my
15 neighbours and friends and the people that I had grown up with, so we all
16 went, and I went with them.
17 Q. Mr. Muzicka, do you know when power was taken over in Prijedor?
18 A. Yes, we all know that: on the 30th of April, 1992.
19 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honours.
20 Q. Do you know whether during the takeover of power by the Serbs in
21 Prijedor there were any incidents?
22 A. As far as I know, there were no incidents. Just one morning we
23 came to work, and we heard that power had been taken over. There was no
24 shooting. It was -- it happened by peaceful means.
25 Q. Do you know when Muslim extremists attacked Prijedor?
1 A. Yes, on the 30th of May, a month later, in 1992.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.
3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: The objection is my learned friend is using the
4 word "extremist," performing a conclusion. I object to that. Thank you.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.
6 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I stand corrected, Mr. President,
7 and I apologise.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] May I go on to my next question?
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
11 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. During the attack on Prijedor, do you know whether there were Serb
13 soldiers who were killed, Serb policemen who were killed, and whether
14 there were casualties on the side of the attackers?
15 A. Yes, I know that there were killed among those that you mentioned.
16 Yes, I know that.
17 Q. Do you know anything about the investigation centres within the
18 territory of Prijedor municipality?
19 A. Yes, I know, as everyone else knows in Prijedor.
20 Q. Do you know when they were formed?
21 A. I can't say with any certainty, but it was when the events
22 occurred in Prijedor. I think it was after the attack on Prijedor that
23 these centres started to be established.
24 Q. Could you list those investigation centres?
25 A. Yes: Keraterm, Trnopolje, and Omarska.
1 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to who was taken to those
2 investigation centres?
3 A. Well, you see, this was after the attack on Prijedor when people,
4 males, were taken into custody; I can't exactly tell you what age. But
5 that is when it started, after the attack on Prijedor, probably due to the
6 participation of certain persons in it.
7 Q. Do you know whether anyone from your neighbourhood was taken to
8 those investigation centres of non-Serb ethnicity?
9 A. Yes, I do have such knowledge. Maybe the second or third street
10 away from us near the hospital, I think - I can't say with certainty - but
11 two men were taken away.
12 Q. Do you know why they were taken?
13 A. I don't know. I know them well, but I'm not aware of the reasons
14 for their detention.
15 Q. Do you know what ethnicity they were?
16 A. They were Croats.
17 Q. After the attack on Prijedor, as you have just said, you were
18 mobilised, as was Zoran Zigic. Did you see him after that?
19 A. No. Actually, I have already said that I saw him before the
20 attack on Prijedor. I can't remember the exact date. And after the
21 attack, I didn't see him, and we had already moved on to another front
22 line so that I didn't see him after that.
23 Q. Did you come on leave?
24 A. Yes, I did go home on leave.
25 Q. Can you tell us, after spending how much time on the front line
1 would you come home on leave?
2 A. During the first year we had regular shifts, and then later in the
3 company I work in, in which I'm still employed, AutoTransport, I was under
4 work obligation, and then towards the war I was mobilised again. A year
5 prior to the end of the war, there was a shortage of personnel. There
6 were people who were sick, others were killed, and others wounded, so
7 shifts were not so regular because of this shortage of personnel.
8 Q. So during that time period, I'm referring to the period from the
9 attack on Prijedor until the end of the war, did you ever hear from anyone
10 in your neighbourhood that Zoran Zigic had hurt any one of them in any
11 way, verbally, physically, or treated anyone incorrectly within that time
12 period, and especially on the basis of ethnicity?
13 A. I have already answered that question. I categorically assert,
14 and I stand by what I say, I would have heard if he had done any such
15 things. And I heard from my parents that he had brought a box of
16 cigarettes to a woman who was related to my mother. And I have already
17 said that I wouldn't take a step to assist him, a single step to assist
18 him if I had heard that he had done anything like that. And I'm quite
19 sure of what I say.
20 Q. And finally, Mr. President, why have you decided to testify before
21 this Tribunal for Zoran Zigic?
22 A. I decided to come because we have many years of friendship behind
23 us, our childhood, many pleasant moments that we shared in our lifetime.
24 And I think that Zoran would assist me, too.
25 Q. Would you have testified in his favour if you had heard anything
1 bad about him?
2 A. Let me tell you: I don't have much trust in various rumours and
3 stories until I see for myself, and whatever people say, these are
4 exaggerations; everyone adds a little to those stories.
5 I just want to give you one further example. We were very young
6 at the time, and in this youth centre where we would spend some time,
7 where Zoran used to play, a fight broke out between one of our colleagues
8 and a grown-up. We were much younger than he was. Zoran was not there.
9 When Zoran arrived and when he heard what had happened, without giving it
10 a second thought, he fought this person, who was much stronger than he
11 was. And we all took part, but it was all attributed to Zoran, and these
12 men later caught Zoran and beat him up.
13 What I'm trying to say is that many things that we all took part
14 in were attributed to Zoran, and I think the same applies to the period
15 during the war. Because amongst us he was the loudest. He stood out
16 most. So that from our youthful days, I know many things were attributed
17 to him alone, although all of us took part, all the young guys that were
18 friends with Zoran.
19 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Muzicka.
20 Mr. President, I have no further questions for this witness.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Deretic.
22 Witness, you are now going to answer questions from the
24 So Mr. Waidyaratne, your witness.
25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:
2 Q. Witness, you, in your direct examination, told the Honourable
3 Chamber as to what connection that you had with Mr. Zoran Zigic during
4 your young days. Could you kindly tell the Chamber --
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. -- as to where Mr. Zoran Zigic lived before the war, in 1992?
7 A. I know that Zoran was working in Croatia just before the war, in
8 Pula, and then that from Pula he went to Montenegro. I don't know exactly
9 when he came back from Montenegro, but I think it was just before the war
10 broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 Q. So there was, if I may say, some years that you didn't see
12 Mr. Zoran Zigic after your association with him as a child or young
13 person; is that correct? After you all got married, if I may put it that
14 way? He was away from his father's house?
15 A. I don't know exactly for how long he worked in Pula, but I don't
16 think it was for a long time.
17 Q. Did you know that he worked in other countries other than Croatia?
18 A. Yes, I do know that he was in Germany working too.
19 Q. Did you know that he also served in or worked in Russia?
20 A. Yes, I did. I forgot to mention that. Yes, I did know that.
21 Q. So there were certain years that you didn't have any contact with
22 him because he was away from Cirkin Polje; is that correct?
23 A. That's not quite correct, because he would come occasionally and
24 we would see each other, but not as frequently as we used to before he
25 went off to Russia and Germany. But we would meet when he came to his
1 home, the home of his parents.
2 Q. Now, Witness, you spoke about -- you gave your date of birth, and
3 how many members do you have in your family? How many brothers and
5 A. I have a sister and my mother and father, and I have a wife and
6 two children, of course.
7 Q. Yes. You had a pet name, didn't you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What was that?
10 A. Sepi.
11 Q. Can you spell it or -- Sepi?
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. Why did they call you that?
14 A. All we enjoyed most was football, and you may know that there was
15 a well-known football player in Yugoslavia called Dragoslav Sekularac, and
16 we would give each other names according to those players, and his name
17 was Seki. We mispronounced it, and from Seki it became Sepi. And then my
18 kum, his nickname was Pele, after the -- again, the football player.
19 Q. You said that you knew Mr. Zoran Zigic. Did you know the name of
20 the kum of Mr. Zoran Zigic, what was the name?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You did not know; is that --
23 A. I didn't know.
24 Q. Did you know a person by the name of Hasan Karabasic [phoen]?
25 A. Let me tell you: I never asked him, and I wasn't present at
1 Zoran's wedding because I wasn't at home. He got married in 1980, and
2 that summer I was staying with relatives in Slovenia, so I never asked him
3 what his kum was.
4 Q. When were you mobilised?
5 A. I was mobilised in 1991, September.
6 Q. During 1992, the conflict in Prijedor, where were you?
7 A. Upon returning from Slavonia, I started working, and before the
8 attack on Prijedor we secured the various parts of town. I was at a
9 checkpoint next to the hospital, at the entrance to the new hospital, and
10 that is also the way that leads into our neighbourhood, our settlement.
11 Q. So you were -- this is, in short, if I say, you were in Prijedor
12 during the conflict; am I correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. What function did you perform at the checkpoint?
15 A. We just controlled vehicles and persons entering the hospital and
16 our neighbourhood.
17 Q. Were you armed and were you dressed in a uniform?
18 A. Yes, I was in a uniform, and we were armed.
19 Q. What was the weapon that you were armed with?
20 A. I had a military weapon, an army weapon.
21 Q. Was it an automatic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, which unit did you belong to when you were at this
25 A. I'd rather not talk about that. That is my personal affair. It
1 was a regular military unit.
2 Q. You are not prepared to say that to this Chamber; is that your
4 A. It's not that I'm not prepared. There's no secrets about that.
5 It was simply a regular military unit, which exists to this day in the
6 barracks, under the name of the same brigade, and we belonged to that
7 brigade, which still exists today.
8 Q. So this is my question: Do you want to go into private session to
9 say the unit that you belonged to, or is it that you are reluctant to say
10 as to what this brigade is or the unit is?
11 A. I can tell you. I just don't feel comfortable about saying it in
12 public. I can tell you in private session, yes.
13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May, Your Honour, that we go into private
14 session for a very brief --
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's go into private
16 session, please.
17 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 MR. WAIDYARATNE: So during the month of --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 MR. WAIDYARATNE:
14 Q. Witness, during the months of May, June, and July, where were you
16 A. That checkpoint was closed shortly afterwards and units were
17 formed, and I was attached to the 1st Battalion, and we had positions in
18 Gornje Puharska near the school.
19 Q. Now, in Gornje Puharska you knew there were many Muslims living in
20 that area; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you take part in rounding up them and arresting them?
23 A. No.
24 Q. What was your function?
25 A. I came there later. They were already there. After our
1 checkpoint was closed, the army was already there, and I came there after
2 the attack on Prijedor. We were stationed in the school in Gornje
4 Q. So your position is that the people, the non-Serbs in Gornje
5 Puharska were not there at the time when you came into this post in Gornje
6 Puharska; is that correct?
7 A. No, no. There were people who returned home after the attack on
8 Prijedor, and we found them there. Some were detained, others not. I
9 don't know. But there were men there, women and children. And then in
10 the meantime, some of them went off to other countries, to third
12 Q. Now, Witness, when you were in Gornje Puharska, did you
13 participate in any operations, if I may put it direct to you?
14 A. There weren't any operations there when we got there. There was
15 virtually no operations there, no arrests. We were like a kind of
16 security, protection to the people who were coming back from the camps
18 Q. Now, Witness, during this time, I spoke to you about the months of
19 May, June, July, you said that you knew about the camps Keraterm,
20 Trnopolje, and Omarska. Did you know that Mr. Zigic was in any of these
22 A. Let me tell you: Whatever I did not see with my own eyes, I
23 cannot confirm, nor can I testify about. I can't say whether he was or he
24 was not. As I said, I saw Zoran for the last time was in April, and
25 whatever I didn't see for myself, I don't wish to comment on.
1 Q. So your position is the last time that you saw Mr. Zigic was -- is
2 that the occasion that you, with your kum, went to Mr. Zigic's house and
3 met him?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. After that, when did you see him?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Is it your position that you saw Mr. Zigic today when you came to
8 the Chamber, you first saw him?
9 A. Correct, correct. This is the first time since that date.
10 Q. Did you hear that Mr. Zigic was seen at the Keraterm camp?
11 A. I did hear it.
12 Q. Did you -- what did you hear? From whom did you hear these
14 A. I heard it from my kum who was with me in the same unit
15 distributing food.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.
17 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness has
18 explicitly said that he doesn't wish [as interpreted] about things that he
19 didn't see with his own eyes; therefore, any further questions along those
20 lines means pressuring the witness.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, after all, we are
22 reasonable people. Come on, now, Mr. Deretic.
23 Mr. Prosecutor, please continue.
24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Now, what did you hear from your kum? And what is his name, if I
1 may ask?
2 A. My kum's name is Predrag Banovic. And I tell you once again, what
3 I haven't seen I don't wish to talk about. That is my position.
4 Q. Did Mr. Predrag Banovic have a nickname?
5 A. Yes. I've told you already. He was called Pele after the famous
6 football player Pele.
7 Q. Did he have any other nickname other than this football famous
9 A. I don't know whether he did. That was the nickname he used.
10 Q. Was he called Cupo?
11 A. No. No question of that. Predrag Banovic, my kum, Pele, and the
12 ones you've mentioned are quite some other guys altogether.
13 Q. What was he doing during the conflict in 1992?
14 A. We were together at that checkpoint. We were on the same shift,
15 and when our battalion was established, we joined together. I was in the
16 infantry, and he distributed food.
17 Q. Did Mr. Banovic, your kum, tell you that he, too, visited the
18 Keraterm camp?
19 A. No, no. When he would bring the food, I would ask him, "Did you
20 see Zoran? Any news of Zoran?" We asked around, but I never asked my kum
21 whether he went there. I don't think he ever did, because there are lots
22 of surnames -- there's a lot of the same surname. Banovic is a common
23 surname. And I know what you want to ask me, but that's quite another
24 man, the one you're thinking about.
25 Q. Thank you, Witness. You're able to read my mind. I will conclude
1 that area.
2 Your kum, Predrag Banovic, didn't have a twin?
3 A. He had a brother, but not a twin.
4 Q. What was his name?
5 A. Vuk.
6 Q. Vuk.
7 A. Luka, I'm sorry, Luka.
8 Q. Now, you said that you heard stories about Mr. Zigic from your
9 kum. What did he say? What were these stories about?
10 A. Well, I keep telling you I don't want to talk about that, and you
11 keep persisting.
12 Q. Are you refusing to say as to what you heard about Mr. Zigic,
13 although you said certain things that you have heard about --
14 A. Well, it's like this: They weren't actually stories because my
15 kum didn't actually know what had gone on. He never went there.
16 Q. Witness --
17 A. But I'm now bringing in a man that's got nothing to do with this
18 at all.
19 Q. Witness --
20 A. And you keep asking me, you keep wanting me to --
21 Q. Witness, what did you hear from your kum? That's my question,
22 about what you heard about Mr. Zigic.
23 A. Do I have to answer?
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness. You're going to
25 answer. Answer, please.
1 Witness, it is not forbidden here to ask witnesses what they
2 heard, what they heard other people say. There is no rule which
3 stipulates that somebody who told -- and if anybody told you otherwise,
4 let me tell you that it's not forbidden to ask witnesses what they heard.
5 So testimony is not only testimony of what you yourself have
6 seen. Do you understand that? So if the Prosecutor or the Defence ask
7 you whether you heard tell about something, you must answer.
8 Please continue, Mr. Prosecutor.
9 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right.
11 A. No problem, no problem.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue?
13 A. Well, there's no problem there. On one occasion when my kum
14 brought the food I said, "Was Zoran around? Have you seen him?" And he
15 said that he had seen him and that he was with Zoran; he had been with
16 Zoran. But where Zoran was, I think he said that he was in Karlicina's
17 unit, but I'm not 100 per cent certain.
18 But where he was and what he was doing -- and he is the warden of
19 a prison, Sikirica. He was very good friends with my kum, good relations
20 with my kum. So Sikirica said that he had seen Zoran, and that he was in
21 Keraterm, but he didn't tell me about anything else because my kum wasn't
22 actually in Keraterm. I don't think he ever went to Keraterm at all, my
23 kum. He didn't go there at all ever.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting,
25 but what information are you thinking about now?
1 A. You mean the information with respect to Keraterm?
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You mentioned that you didn't
3 here tell about the other pieces of information.
4 A. Well, my kum wasn't with Zoran, nor did he ever go to Keraterm. I
5 sincerely doubt that my kum ever went to Keraterm and that therefore he
6 had any knowledge of what happened in Keraterm. And I stand by what I
7 say. I have no reason to think things up or add things on.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Witness. Thank you.
9 I apologise, Mr. Waidyaratne. Please continue.
10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Now, you mentioned about your kum mentioning a person by the name
12 of Sikirica, the warden of the prison. Is it Dusan Sikirica?
13 A. Yes. I don't know his real name. I know Sikirica, too, and we
14 would see each other. I know Sikirica. We had some celebrations with the
15 women. But my kum was better friends with Sikirica, but I met Sikirica,
16 too, because I was with my kum on several occasions.
17 Q. Now, Witness, did you at any time, because you were in -- during
18 the conflict you were in Prijedor, did you get to know that Mr. Zoran
19 Zigic was in the Keraterm camp, attached to the Keraterm camp, if I may
21 A. Well, let me tell you. I was -- that was in April. I was with
22 Zoran in April, and I think he gave me some cigarettes and a litre of some
23 drink to take to my parents. I didn't ask him where he was and what he
24 was doing. I was never inquisitive or curious, so I don't know who his
25 kum was. I never asked him; I'm not inquisitive. But as I say, that was
1 the last time I was with Zoran, and that is absolutely certain. And Zoran
2 can confirm that, bear that out. And well, that's it.
3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Please bear with me, Your Honour.
4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise. While
5 my colleague is taking a moment to consult his notes, may I caution you of
6 the time?
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you. We are fully
8 conscious of the time.
9 Mr. Waidyaratne.
10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.
11 Q. Now, you said that only two men were taken from your locality
12 during the conflict to the camps, is that correct, and you don't know the
13 names of these people?
14 A. Yes, that's correct. I do know their names.
15 Q. You do. Could you kindly tell their names, please?
16 A. Well, I can, but I don't really want this to be -- I don't want
17 the public to learn about this, because they were people who were our
18 neighbours too. Now, why they were taken away, I don't want to enter into
19 those reasons, nor do I know why, but I do know their names.
20 Q. Could you kindly tell the names in a private session? Thank you.
21 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I briefly --
22 A. Yes, I can.
23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: [Previous translation continues] ...
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private
1 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, your
22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I shall be
23 brief. I have three questions.
24 Re-examined by Mr. Deretic:
25 Q. My first question is the following: Mr. Muzicka, do you know who
1 ok the people from your neighbourhood to the investigation centre?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did Zoran Zigic have anything to do with that?
4 A. I don't know. I was very good friends with those people. We were
5 all good friends with them. And I was surprised when they were taken
6 off. Why they were taken off, I really don't know, nor do I know who took
7 them away, why they were taken away. And when I was with that man
8 recently, our relationships remain the same.
9 Q. Do you know whether Zoran Zigic in any way was linked up with the
10 taking away of these people?
11 A. Well, as I say, if I knew that Zoran had taken them away, I would
12 tell you, 100 per cent. Quite certainly I would say if I knew.
13 Q. Mr. Muzicka, do you perhaps know - before the war you said Zoran
14 worked abroad - whether he was away for a longer period of time or a short
15 period of time?
16 A. Well, I can't say with certainty how long.
17 Q. Was it a month, two months, what?
18 A. Well, it was longer than two months. I can't say with certainty,
19 but it might have been a medium-term period, not long and not short.
20 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] That is all, Mr. President. I have
21 no further questions.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Deretic.
23 Judge Fouad Riad.
24 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Questioned by the Court:
1 JUDGE RIAD: I just have two small questions for you,
2 Mr. Muzicka. You mentioned that Mr. Zigic would be aggressive after
3 drinking. Did you watch, for instance, sometimes that he would -- how far
4 would his aggression go? Would he use his pistol, for instance, if he
5 carried one?
6 A. No. I don't think he was actually aggressive; it was just that he
7 wasn't the same man as when he was sober. For example, he would protect
8 any of our women, any of the girls, the women, if anybody were to look at
9 them askance or say anything to them. But if he drank a bit, then he
10 would act differently, differently than when he was sober.
11 JUDGE RIAD: And if he drank a lot?
12 A. Well, then all the things we did as young men, it would all end up
13 in a fight. We would have a fight with others, other young people. But
14 once we were married, when we got married, we would take him away when he
15 was drunk. He wasn't afraid of me, but he respected me more and listened
16 to me perhaps more than to others. So when he was a little tipsy, he
17 would listen to me when I would tell him, and when we became more serious
18 and when we were grown men and when we married, he would listen to me even
19 more, and so we didn't have any problems with him even when he was drunk.
20 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that the Muslims attacked Prijedor on
21 the 30th of May, 1992. Was that the reason why you think the Muslims were
22 being taken to the investigation centre?
23 A. Well, I can't know for sure whether that was the reason or not,
24 but I think it was the main reason, one of the main reasons why people
25 were detained, because they had taken part in the attack on Prijedor.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Because a lot of policemen were killed and lots of people were killed, and
2 there were other casualties and victims. So I think that that was
3 probably the main reason why these people were taken into custody and why
4 they were interrogated and so on.
5 JUDGE RIAD: But were your two neighbours, the two Croats, the
6 [redacted], did they take part in the attack?
7 A. Well, I don't believe so. I don't think they did. I don't think
8 they personally took part. Now, why they were taken off, I really cannot
9 say. I don't know. I couldn't really tell you why.
10 JUDGE RIAD: Now, one of them, I think [redacted], was never seen after
11 that. Did you ask about him? Did you try to know what happened to him?
12 A. [redacted] was seen. It was [redacted] who wasn't seen; at least, I didn't
13 see him. And we weren't such close friends either before the war. But when
14 I was with [redacted], well, we went hunting for a time before the war, and
15 I didn't ask him. I felt uncomfortable asking him. I didn't want to talk
16 to him about the war afterwards, nor did he start speaking about the war
17 and what happened to him during the war. We didn't discuss that at all.
18 I felt uncomfortable and he felt uncomfortable discussing it, so we didn't
19 talk about that.
20 JUDGE RIAD: But at least did you know that he -- did you ask or
21 know that he was in Keraterm?
22 A. Who do you mean? Who do you mean? Did I ask who?
23 JUDGE RIAD: The cousin, [redacted], whoever came back.
24 A. Well, let me tell you, this is how it was: He was taken off, but
25 I didn't know where, where he was taken off to. And his wife, immediately
1 after the war, came to visit her sister, and I happened to meet her and I
2 asked her about [redacted].I said, "What had happened to [redacted] And then
3 her wife [as interpreted] told me, while she was on a visit to her sister,
4 told she me that [redacted] had been taken to Omarska and then Manjaca - I think
5 that's what she said - and then he was released and that they went to
6 Zagreb, which is where they live today.
7 JUDGE RIAD: One of your questions you were hesitating to answer,
8 and I think you wanted -- you didn't want the public to hear it.
9 [Interpretation] Mr. President, may we go into private session,
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private
13 [Private session]
13 Page 9827 redacted private session.
8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I can see that we're in open
11 Mr. Muzicka, we have no more questions for you. We thank you for
12 having answered all our questions, and I hope that you were not too
13 pressurised to answer. We should like to thank you for coming and we wish
14 you a safe journey back to your place of residence and back to your work.
15 Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too. May I just say at
17 the end that I hope that with my testimony I have been able to help you,
18 Your Honours. I don't know how far I have been successful. But perhaps I
19 have been able to give you a clearer picture about Zoran, because I said
20 in the beginning that you need many years to know a person properly, to
21 get to know the true personality of Zoran Zigic, and I think that I have
22 helped you in that.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness. You have
24 shown very good will. The usher will now escort you out of the courtroom.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honours.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Susan Somers.
3 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I want to take a moment and explain what
4 the interaction was between the Prosecution and the registry
5 representative. Inadvertently, a couple of names came out during
6 questioning from the bench which were covered by private session, and we
7 just wanted to make sure the redaction would be made, and that was it.
8 Not to be rude or anything like that.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much.
10 Madam Registrar, do we need to strike anything from the LiveNote?
11 MS. SOMERS: If I can clarify it for the registry, there were two
12 names of relatives that the witness had indicated he did not wish to give
13 publicly, and inadvertently in an exchange they came out. That's all.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, I will locate it in the transcript
15 and have it redacted.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But as you know, we will have to
17 do that immediately. Do you wish to come to my office afterwards?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
19 MS. SOMERS: It would be two names: on page 97, line 24, and page
20 98, line 3. We'll provide those. Thank you.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well, we will see to
22 that immediately within the deadline that the registrar is aware of, but
23 this brings us to the end of today's meeting.
24 We adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.20 when we meet again. The
25 meeting is adjourned.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.58 p.m., to
2 be reconvened on Friday, the 30th day of
3 March, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.