1 Friday, 20th April 2001
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please be
6 seated. Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Good morning to the technical
7 booth and the interpreters. Good morning to the registry staff, the
8 Prosecution and Defence. We're going to take up our work today.
9 I don't know if Ms. Susan Somers has some information to impart or
10 would you prefer to give us that information at a later time?
11 MS. SOMERS: Having gone through a number of documents concerning
12 any specific -- specifically set forth incidents in the indictment, I
13 cannot identify any specific incidents dated from the period that is
14 covered by this document, I think it was 20/4 or 4/20 of the Defence.
15 However, as I had indicated to the Chamber a few days ago, the phrasing of
16 the indictment is such that it includes the time periods and when it
17 speaks of -- it would be Counts 1 through 13 on the indictment which
18 mentions Zigic, and -- I'm sorry 1 to 3, 1 to 3, and 6, and 7 of the
19 indictment, the -- and 11 to 13.
20 All paragraphs of the indictment refer to between 24 May 1992 and
21 30 August 1992, Zigic and others participated, et cetera, et cetera,
22 including -- and then if there were some specific things, they were set
23 forth, but the including is an indication by the Prosecution that these
24 are just a few of the named events in the time period that were set forth
25 with that much specificity in the indictment. However, acts occurring
1 between those times would, of course, be in consideration. But I read
2 Judge Wald's question and it was specifically the charge things.
3 Further, I thought it might be wise to review the unsworn 84 bis
4 statement of the defendant Zigic and to see what reference, if any, might
5 have been made and I -- I only have the LiveNote cites if the Chamber
6 wishes the cite, but they are record cites. There is no actual reference
7 to any incarceration during that period. It was not raised, although
8 there was the reference to the alleged alibi of the Room 3 massacre time
9 frame. The other witnesses, the alibi witnesses, the Sikics, did not
10 address this.
11 There are documents which the Prosecution intends to use next week
12 or in its rebuttal case as well, but principally next week, that discuss
13 Zigic's criminal past, and the only reference that we have is a July 1
14 document signed by Drljaca requesting that Zigic be sent. There is no
15 document ever indicating that he, in fact, was sent to any incarceration.
16 These documents were part of the seizure, and there was a file, a Zigic
17 criminal file containing, presumably, all documents concerning any such
18 incidents, and there is noticeably absent any record of Zigic having
19 served. In our view, this calls into question a summary prepared for
20 litigation document that is what has been presented in 20/4.
21 The Prosecution stands firm in its position that it is
22 inappropriate at this time to allow the dropping of an alibi in response
23 to the Prosecution's 3/249. I'm sure the Chamber has had an opportunity,
24 I hope -- I know that everyone is very busy, but if the Chamber has had an
25 opportunity to look carefully at that document, that document refers to a
1 compilation on the 4th of July. It is not suggesting that there was any
2 activity on the 4th of July. And in fact, the criminal file of Zigic
3 talks about activity that occurred in June.
4 There is nothing that we have been able to track to date that
5 shows any incarceration. If the Chamber accepts it, accepts the document
6 over our objection, we simply ask that it give it the weight we believe it
7 is due, which is none.
8 But I have tried to make as thorough a search under the time
9 constraints, and a number of the documents are not translated that I've
10 had to work through. If there is any change in circumstances or should I
11 find anything, I will immediately inform the Chamber, but as I say, the
12 only document that even suggests that action may have been initiated was
13 one by Drljaca on the 1st, and then referring on the 2nd, there's another
14 document which talks about the incident of the 10th of June which concerns
15 the two Muslims whom Zigic took out of the camp. And this has been
16 essentially, from what I can determine, the sum total of any evidence.
17 Again, noticeably missing in Zigic's own unsworn statement and noticeably
18 missing in his alibi witnesses' sworn testimony.
19 If I can answer any further questions, I'm very happy to.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Ms. Susan
22 I think, Mr. Deretic, that that was the information that Judge
23 Wald and the Chamber asked Ms. Susan Somers to supply us with, so we're
24 not going to open up the debate. We've already heard the arguments with
25 respect to this issue. We have taken note of the information supplied to
1 the Chamber, and we shall render our decision accordingly.
2 Mr. Deretic.
3 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may just state
4 my views in one sentence: I hope that the Defence of Mr. Zigic will have
5 occasion with respect to this document, that is to say, 3/249, present its
6 definite position -- definitive position. I can do that now, of course,
7 but I can do that on another occasion.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What I meant was not to open a
9 debate. Do you have anything new to add?
10 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely so.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you do it in three minutes'
13 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I think I can.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead, then.
15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence of
16 Mr. Zigic would like to stress first of all that this document should have
17 been disclosed much earlier in conformity with Rule 66 of the Rules of
18 Procedure and Evidence. It is very strange that this official note is
19 being put forward at this point in time, although allegedly it was
20 compiled in 1992 and three years after Zoran Zigic coming before this
21 Tribunal and raising the indictment against him.
22 The Zigic Defence thus considers that it is a fabricated document
23 which is in the function of the accused Dusko Sikirica, because it does
24 not have the protocol registration number or reference number so as to be
25 able to check out the authenticity of it in the official records. At all
1 events, the Defence insists that this Chamber be presented by the original
2 official note -- presented with the original official note in view of the
3 justified doubt as to its authenticity and verisimilitude.
4 On the basis of Article 89 (E) we furthermore request, that is, of
5 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, that this Trial Chamber should
6 request a confirmation of the authenticity of this official note, all the
7 more so as an official note of this kind can be fabricated anytime, now,
8 anytime, because it does not contain the reference protocol number and, as
9 such, can always be compiled without being -- its authenticity being
10 established or the verification of its authenticity being made.
11 We should like to stress, in particular, that the Prosecution is
12 trying to present the document through a Defence witness. Whenever the
13 Defence in the proceedings so far attempted to do the same, to introduce a
14 similar document through a Prosecution witness, and the witness contested
15 the truth of the contents of such a document, the Defence, each and every
16 time, its objections were rejected and its proposal to have that document
17 introduced into evidence as an exhibit, as evidence, was rejected.
18 As we have not, therefore, adhered at all times to the Rules of
19 Procedure and Evidence to which we referred, and as our request was not
20 met, at this point in time, I should like to say that I am opposed to
21 having this document admitted into evidence. And two more sentences, if I
22 may. When we are talking about document D20/4, it is directly related
23 to --
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic your three minutes
25 are up, so please conclude.
1 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] All I wanted to say is that document
2 D20/4 is directly related to the Prosecution document 3/249. And we
3 should like to substantiate the facts of the Defence and the testimony
4 given by Witness DD/9 and not -- we did not, at any time, mention that we
5 are offering a Defence by alibi.
6 That is all, Mr. President. Thank you.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 Ms. Susan Somers, we have raised the question of authenticity.
9 We've discussed all the other aspects, but do you have anything to say
10 with respect to authenticity?
11 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, consistent with what the Chamber has
12 requested of us in other cases where this has come up, I would be very
13 happy to present, from the investigative official who was one of the
14 seizing officers, a declaration, a certification of -- from where the
15 document came and if the Chamber will give me time to do it I will present
17 JUDGE WALD: Can you add anything on the question he's raised
18 about the protocol number?
19 MS. SOMERS: I would have to study it to know whether or not
20 there's any merit to that argument because every document, including
21 Defence documents, seems to have its -- I shall not say every document, I
22 would strike that. But most documents have different formats and I will
23 make inquiry but, no, not at this time. But may I have the Chamber's
24 indulgence to present the declaration from our investigator?
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. And there was another
1 question raised, I think, by Mr. Deretic and that was the matter of the
2 original. Do you have the original, B/C/S original?
3 MS. SOMERS: I will talk to the evidence unit to see what was
4 seized. It is very possible that an original was not seized, but whatever
5 was seized I will ask to have shown to the Court along with the
6 declaration, if that's satisfactory.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You, therefore, know what
8 matters have been raised. We shall wait for a response. We shall wait
9 for you to provide us with this additional information to be able to make
10 a decision. Thank you, Ms. Susan Somers.
11 And now to wind up the question of the documents, I'm going to ask
12 madam registrar the results of the question we raised yesterday with
13 respect to knowing whether the document, that is to say, marked by the
14 Prosecutor 3/263 and 3/264, whether they were documents that were
15 previously admitted or not. Have they already been admitted or not?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, my answer remains the same. These
17 two document have never been admitted before.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Therefore, having heard
19 that, I think we can say that these two documents, if there is no
20 opposition from the Defence, that is to say, 3/263 and 3/264 are admitted
21 into evidence as of this moment. They have been tendered and are
22 admitted. As to the rest, we are going to wait for Ms. Susan Somers to
23 supply us with the additional information we need in order to proceed.
24 Mr. Deretic, I think that having said that, we can now hear our
25 next witness; is that right?
1 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Yes. The
2 Defence of Mr. Zigic calls its next witness, Mr. Drazen Kroca.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Drazen Kroca,
5 can you hear me?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the
8 solemn declaration that's been handed to you by the usher. Please go
10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
11 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: DRAZEN KROCA
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Put your
15 headset on, and please approach the microphone so that we can hear you
17 Let me start off by thanking you for coming. You are now going to
18 be answering questions put to you by Mr. Deretic after which the
19 Prosecution and Judges will be asking you question. But for the moment,
20 it is Mr. Deretic's turn.
21 Mr. Deretic, your witness.
22 Examined by Mr. Deretic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kroca, can you hear me?
24 A. Yes, I can.
25 Q. Could you give us your full name, please.
1 A. Drazen Kroca.
2 Q. Your parents' name?
3 A. My mother's name is Kata, my father's name is Ivica.
4 Q. When and where were you born?
5 A. On the 22nd of October, 1964 in Prijedor.
6 Q. Where do you reside today?
7 A. In Prijedor.
8 Q. What is your ethnicity and religion?
9 A. I am a Croat of the Roman Catholic faith.
10 Q. What are you by profession?
11 A. I am a baker.
12 Q. Are you employed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where?
15 A. In the Institute for the Protection of Handicapped Children.
16 Q. Mr. Kroca, were you mobilised as a soldier after the war began in
17 the former Bosnia-Herzegovina?
18 A. Yes, I was. I was mobilised on the 9th in the then SFRY. My
19 call-up papers came on the 28th of September 1991.
20 Q. Do you remember whether the call-up was in writing, in written
22 A. Yes, it was.
23 Q. Do you know who signed it; do you remember?
24 A. Madunjanin, the Defence minister at that time in Prijedor.
25 Q. Do you know Zoran Zigic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Since when have you known him?
3 A. Since childhood.
4 Q. Do you live in the same neighbourhood where the Zigic house is?
5 A. Yes. Zigic's house is about 200 metres from my own.
6 Q. Were you friends as children?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you grow up together?
9 A. Yes, we did.
10 Q. Do you know whether Zoran had a hobby of any kind during his
12 A. Yes, he did. He played the guitar.
13 Q. Did he have a band of any kind?
14 A. Yes, he did. He had a band, a group, and it was called Klas.
15 Q. Were you present when the band played? Did you go to the
16 gatherings where they played?
17 A. Yes. Whenever there was enough room in their van, I would go with
19 Q. We're now talking about the pre-war period. Can you just describe
20 in a few words Zoran Zigic as a person.
21 A. Yes, I can. Zoran Zigic was a good friend. He liked to help
22 others, but he liked to be the leader. He liked to be in the -- focus of
23 attention, but always among friends.
24 Q. As you spent this whole period together, your childhood together,
25 did you ever notice that Zigic, Zoran, differentiated between people on an
1 ethnic basis?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you ever come into a conflicting situation with him, any
4 arguments with him?
5 A. No, never. He was always very fair towards me.
6 Q. Did you ever hear anybody complain of Zoran that he attacked
7 people in view of their ethnicity, anything of that kind?
8 A. No, I never heard anything like that.
9 Q. Can you tell us the national composition, the ethnic composition
10 of your neighbourhood?
11 A. Well, it's of mixed composition. There were all sorts. There
12 were Serbs, there were Croats, there were Muslims.
13 Q. Prior to the war, did you have a traffic accident of any kind?
14 A. Just before the new year, and I was already at the front line in
15 Croatia at that time. We were all going to celebrate -- we should all
16 have been in our unit for the new year in 1991, 1992. I had a traffic
17 accident in Bosanski Novi. I was hit by a car.
18 Q. Were you seriously injured?
19 A. Well, I was black and blue. I didn't actually have any fractures,
20 but I was hit.
21 Q. Could you tell us who visited you as a patient first?
22 A. Zoran Zigic was among the first people to visit me.
23 Q. Did he offer to help you?
24 A. Yes. He asked me how I was, whether I needed any help, whether I
25 needed anything. And my mother and I lived alone together. My mother is
1 getting on in years, and he wanted to know if my mother needed help at
2 home while I was recovering.
3 Q. After the war began, do you know if Zoran Zigic was engaged in the
5 A. Yes, he was.
6 Q. Did you see him at that time?
7 A. Well, briefly. We saw each other several times briefly in cafes.
8 We would have a drink together, have a chat, that sort of thing.
9 Q. On those occasions, did you notice any changes in Zoran Zigic?
10 A. I would say he drank more. He drank a little more.
11 Q. Can you tell us how long you saw him during that period of time?
12 Can you give us a sort of time frame?
13 A. Until 1992, the last time I saw him was in 1992. It was October
14 or November, I can't quite remember. We met towards evening in the Oskar
15 restaurant. We stayed there until closing time, and then we went off to
16 his house and sat around until morning. And from that time, I didn't see
17 him again. I didn't see him after that. I heard he had gone off
18 somewhere. Whether it was to Banja Luka or Novi Sad, I can't quite
19 remember where.
20 Q. Mr. Kroca, do you know a person called [redacted]?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Since when have you known him?
23 A. Since my childhood. We played together. We were neighbours. We
24 lived close to each other.
25 Q. Does Zoran know him too?
1 A. Yes, he does. Zoran's house is even closer to his house than my
3 Q. Do you know what [redacted]?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. Could you explain, tell us what?
14 A. Well, we played ball, I think it was ball when we were children,
15 and he thought up a song and sung it to me, and that made me angry. I
16 [redacted] I was sort of teasing
17 him, and he took a piece -- a brick, and when I turned round, he -- it was
18 a pointed object, and he struck me with it and the point went into my
19 shoulder, and I had two stitches put in, and I still have a scar there to
20 this day.
23 A. Well, I can't say whether he did this before the war, whether he
24 changed his name just before the war or after the war.
25 Q. But do you know that he actually changed his name?
1 A. Yes, I do. I do know that.
4 Q. What is it? What's he called? What's his nickname?
7 Q. And finally, could you tell us once again, generally speaking,
8 what is your opinion of Zoran Zigic as a person? What kind of person is
10 A. Zoran Zigic as a person, as I said, he was a good man, a good
11 friend. He always wanted to help. Whenever anybody went to him for help,
12 he would always help them if he was able to.
13 Now, during the war, the war did leave traces on everybody, and he
14 started drinking a little too much, and it was rumoured that he took drugs
15 as well, but I have my own opinion of him, and I knew him before the war,
16 and that's it.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further
19 questions for the moment for this witness.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Deretic.
21 Now, Mr. Kroca, you will answer questions that the Prosecution
22 will have for you.
23 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
24 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:
1 Q. Mr. Kroca, I just want to make sure that your testimony is clear.
2 You mentioned that you were called up in -- on the -- in September of
3 1991. Which army were you mobilised into at that time?
4 A. JNA, the JNA.
5 Q. And where did you serve beginning at that time for the JNA?
6 A. I was on the Banija.
7 Q. Where is that?
8 A. It's -- now let me see, how shall I explain it? At Dvor Na Uni
9 towards Glina.
10 Q. You'll have to forgive me because I'm not from your part of the
11 world so my knowledge of the geography of that part of the world is not as
12 strong as yours. Were you serving at that time within Croatia or were you
13 still in Bosnia?
14 A. Croatia.
15 Q. Were you on the front line fighting at that time?
16 A. The JNA.
17 Q. Yes. And were you on the front line at that time fighting?
18 A. I didn't have any armed -- our unit was stationed there, but that
19 was far away from the front line.
20 Q. Your unit -- was your unit involved in actions against the
21 Croatian people, your own people?
22 A. I don't understand the question.
23 Q. Your unit was fighting against Croatian forces; is that true or
25 A. Yes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 Q. You mentioned that your call-up papers dated 28 September 1991
2 were signed by -- the word I heard was signed by Madunjanin; is that the
3 name that you said?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. Do you know the full name of this person Madunjanin?
6 A. It escapes me.
7 Q. You said, if I understood you correctly, he was Defence Minister
8 at that time. Defence Minister for the entire country or were you
9 referring just to the Prijedor area?
10 A. In the Prijedor area, in the Ministry of Defence of the town of
12 Q. And do you know whether his role changed, Mr. Madunjanin's role
13 changed in any way beginning in 1992?
14 A. I don't understand the question. I do not get it. What do you
16 Q. When you got your call-up papers, you said they were signed, and
17 this is in 1991, by someone named Madunjanin. My question for you -- and
18 you said that Mr. Madunjanin was the Defence Minister for the Prijedor
19 area at that time. My question for you is: Do you know if Mr. Madunjanin
20 maintained that same position during 1992?
21 A. Yes. I think so. I think he did. I wasn't in Prijedor at the
22 time, but I think he did.
23 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of this Mr. Madunjanin?
24 A. Muslim, I think, a Bosniak.
25 Q. Did you know him at all?
1 A. No. No, I didn't.
2 Q. Did someone tell you to mention his name in your testimony today?
3 A. No, no. When we received the call-up, I was in a coffee bar when
4 I received the summons. And we were looking at the signature because
5 there was this rumour spread about that the JNA was the Serb army, and we
6 really looked at that signature and commented how could a Muslim sign
7 these papers if the JNA was a Serb army, and that is why the name stuck in
8 my memory.
9 Q. You mentioned that you grew up with Zoran Zigic and that he played
10 the guitar. Do you know if Zoran Zigic had a music teacher at any time?
11 A. No. I think he was self-taught. Perhaps one of the elder persons
12 perhaps showed him something, but I don't remember him having a teacher.
13 Q. You mentioned that Zoran Zigic liked to be a leader. Would you
14 say that before the war in 1992, Mr. Zigic showed leadership qualities?
15 A. No. No, that is not what I meant. What I meant is Zigic, for
16 instance, when he played, if somebody played louder than he did, he would
17 bring down the voltage or put up the voltage for his guitar.
18 Q. You mentioned the last time that you saw Mr. Zigic was in October
19 or November of 1992 in the Oskar restaurant, I believe it's in Prijedor.
20 And you described how you and Mr. Zigic stayed until closing at the
21 restaurant and then you went to Mr. Zigic's house where you sat around
22 until the morning.
23 Do you recall how many -- was this also the house where
24 Mr. Zigic's parents lived?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you recall how many doors that house has? Does it have a
2 front door and a back door?
3 A. How -- I don't understand what do you mean front door and back
5 Q. Well, let me put it more simply. How many entrances, if you know,
6 how many doors does that house have?
7 A. One door, the front door, the entrance door. And then there is --
8 and then as you enter, you turn left to the kitchen and the -- no, to the
9 right is the living-room, that is where the living-room, as you enter, to
10 the right.
11 Q. Are there any other entrances or exits behind the house or on the
12 side of the house?
13 A. Well, as you enter, I think you go upstairs, through this front
14 door, through the entrance door. You then go upstairs. I think there is
15 a staircase right next to the front door.
16 Q. I will move on. Regarding the Oskar restaurant, how close is that
17 or how far is that to the Keraterm factory, the ceramic factory called
19 A. 500, 700 metres, a kilometre. I don't know.
20 Q. At any time during 1992, were you detained at all by the Serb
21 authorities in one of the camps or investigation centres?
22 A. No. In 1991 right up until 1996 I was engaged in the army, JNA at
23 first and then the army of Republika Srpska. And at that time I was in
24 the Banja Luka Corps which was then renamed the 1st Krajina Corps, and my
25 unit was stationed near Skender Vakuf which is Knezvo today. And -- but I
1 would come home for leave at times, but in 1992, I was transferred to the
2 Prijedor 43rd Brigade, and I think it was in the middle of August. And
3 when I saw Zigic, it was only when I would come home for leave. For those
4 two or three days when we would be granted a leave, and even then I would
5 see him, and then we would sit down and have a chat. And if I didn't come
6 across him, then I didn't.
7 Q. Who was the commander of your unit in the 43rd Brigade?
8 A. When I came, the brigade commander was Zeljaja.
9 Q. For what period of time were you based or stationed near Skender
10 Vakuf, if I'm pronouncing it correctly?
11 A. Not for a long time. Maybe, maybe a month. Not more than that.
12 Q. From when to when? Which month was it in 1992?
13 A. April, May. End of April, beginning of May maybe.
14 Q. As a Croat, why did you serve in the army of the Republika Srpska?
15 A. I said that I was mobilised in 1991, and that unit, that corps,
16 then became part of the army of Republika Srpska. And, you know, I was
17 born in Prijedor. My parents were born there, so I stayed with those
18 people there. I didn't want to go anywhere. I don't know why, I mean ...
19 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
21 Mr. Deretic, do you have any additional questions?
22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, a few short questions,
23 Mr. President.
24 Re-examined by Mr. Deretic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, would you tell us, what does "JNA" stand
2 A. The Yugoslav People's Army.
3 Q. And who was it made of when you were mobilised? What was the
4 composition of the Yugoslav People's Army?
5 A. I can talk about my unit. Everybody was there: Croats, Muslims,
6 Serbs. Well, Serbs were in the majority, but there were everybody -- and
7 everybody who happened to be called up because at that time only those war
8 units were mobilised, not all the units. There wasn't a general
10 Q. You said that the summons was signed, and you mentioned the name
11 of Medunjanin?
12 A. Yes, yes. And they said why, but I remembered it [as
14 Q. Do you know when the -- when did the attack on Prijedor take
16 A. 30th of April, I think. I'm not sure. I can't really remember.
17 I wasn't in Prijedor at that time.
18 Q. Do you know what happened to the man, to that man afterwards?
19 A. No. I mean I heard that he had disappeared, but I don't really
21 Q. You said that you spent your childhood and your youth in Zigic's
22 neighbourhood. Have you ever been to his house?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Once or on various occasions?
25 A. On a number of occasions.
1 Q. Does that house have a yard?
2 A. It does, yes, a small yard.
3 Q. How many entrances into that house are there?
4 A. There is one entrance.
5 Q. And my final question: Do you visit Croatia even though you were
6 in the army of -- even though you were in the army of Republika Srpska?
7 A. No, I haven't been there yet, even though I do have some relations
8 there, but I didn't have my papers. I didn't have a passport. I haven't
9 been there yet.
10 Q. Do you know if there are any other colleagues of yours who were --
11 who were Croats who served in the army of Republika Srpska, do they go to
13 A. Yes. I know, I know a neighbour of mine who did fight in that
14 army and then went to see Sisak and got married there and found a job.
15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Deretic.
17 Judge Riad.
18 Questioned by the Court:
19 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Kroca. I just want to ask you a
20 general question. You were mobilised in 1991, and you said everybody was
21 there, Muslims, Croatians, and Serbs, but you -- then you were sent to
22 fight in Croatia, if I understood rightly?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE RIAD: Were there other Croatians going to fight their own
25 people in the army?
1 A. Well, those who were in that unit did go.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I mean, the army did not make
3 any differentiation; they would send people to fight their own people, and
4 you could not object to that? You had no right to say no?
5 A. That was the only armed force, the Yugoslav People's Army. It was
6 still the army.
7 JUDGE RIAD: I see. And you happen to know Mr. Zigic, and you say
8 that just after the war when he was engaged in the army, he started
9 drinking. You saw him some times after that. What makes you say that
10 there was -- that he started drinking, was it so obvious; and what was his
12 A. I don't understand what you mean. I don't understand the
14 JUDGE RIAD: Okay. Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Riad.
16 Judge Wald.
17 JUDGE WALD: I just have one simple question, Witness. You said
18 that you visited Mr. Zigic's house several times, and you also told us
19 that there was a yard around the house, a small yard, I think you said.
20 Was that yard in back of the house or front of the house, side of the
21 house? Where was the yard? Was it --
22 A. In front of the house.
23 JUDGE WALD: There was no backyard? We've heard testimony about
24 barbecues being held in the area, but I just wanted to get the location.
25 So that yard was not in the back of the house; is that right? Is that
1 what you're saying now?
2 A. Where they had barbecues, I don't know, because I had nothing to
3 do with the barbecue. But I know that there was this yard in front of the
4 house, and there was a street, a lane, in front of the house.
5 JUDGE WALD: Okay. And to your knowledge, there wasn't a yard in
6 the back of the house?
7 A. I don't know. Perhaps there was, perhaps there is one now. I
8 don't know.
9 JUDGE WALD: Okay, thank you.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Wald.
11 You testified, Witness Kroca, that you spent your childhood and
12 your youth in Mr. Zigic's company. What did you -- what kind of games did
13 you play with Mr. Zigic?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What kind of games did you
16 play? What were the games that you preferred?
17 A. Well, football, mostly. We mostly played football. He played the
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the age difference
20 between you and Zigic?
21 A. Six or seven years, I think.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. How many times did
23 you go to visit Mr. Zigic before the conflict?
24 A. Well, I can't really remember how many times. A number of times.
25 Never counted.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And after?
2 A. After the war?
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 A. On a couple of occasions.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Several times?
6 A. Two or three times. Two or three times, perhaps. I can't really
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And you never attended a
9 barbecue party there?
10 A. Before or after the war?
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, tell us first before, and
12 then tell us how about after the war.
13 A. Before the war, if we were to have a barbecue, then it was an
14 outing, then we would go away somewhere. I don't remember if we had
15 anything there. Perhaps we did, I don't remember, but I think we always
16 went somewhere for an outing, to Mrakovica, to the Sana banks. And during
17 the war or after the war, I haven't been to -- I didn't go to any of these
18 barbecue. I mean we were in different units so that we were never there
19 together. When we met, it would only be for a very short period of time.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But was it -- was it customary
21 for Mr. Zigic to have a barbecue in his yard, for instance?
22 A. Yes. He liked that. He was quite keen on that, always was. For
23 instance, we would be sitting somewhere on the curb on the street and he'd
24 say "Yes, let's go. Let's have some grilled meat. Let's have some
25 grilled meat or some barbecue," and we'd bring the money together, and
1 he'd take us in his car and we'd go and buy the meat.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but did you -- were you
3 invited or were you never invited to join them?
4 A. You mean during the war or when?
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Even before the war.
6 A. Before the war, we did not really have all those barbecues at his
7 place. As I said, we would go somewhere out of the town. Perhaps he did
8 have this barbecue because he -- you know, I wasn't in Prijedor, all the
9 time in Prijedor before the war either.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But my question to you is you
11 were never invited to a barbecue party at Mr. Zigic's; is that your
13 A. No, I don't know. I can't remember. I really can't remember if
14 we had barbecue together in his house.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kroca. We do not
16 have any further questions for you. Thank you for coming. We wish you a
17 happy journey back to your country. Thank you.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, perhaps we can move
20 ahead and have your next witness even before the break.
21 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have a small,
22 teenie-weenie problem here, namely last night when we talked with the
23 witness who was to testify today, she insisted and she was most emphatic
24 that she should be -- that she would testify only with a pseudonym, and
25 that she would also need face and voice distortion, protection.
1 I took it conditionally as her condition. I asked her why, and
2 she said that she came from Prijedor, that she was employed in a specific
3 service, and she would mention some names in her testimony. She also told
4 me that some of the witnesses who had been here experienced some
5 unpleasantness after their testimony, and she does not want that to happen
6 to her.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers.
8 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, Mr. Deretic informed me of this
9 last-minute request prior to the commencement of this session. Would it
10 be possible to go into private session for just a moment so as not to
11 aggravate a concern on the part of Mr. Deretic?
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Perhaps we could go into
13 private session briefly.
14 [Private session]
13 Pages 10639-10645 – redacted – private session
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're going to take a break, a
6 half-hour break, and reconvene for the next witness.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
10 Mr. Deretic, do you need to go into private session? We're in
11 open session now.
12 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Mr. President. And thank
13 you for suggesting that.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private
16 [Private session]
13 Pages 10647-10650 – redacted – private session
12 [Open session]
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, may we have the
14 blinds lowered so that the witness can enter.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 THE REGISTRAR: May I please just remind the Defence counsel,
17 switch off the microphone while the witness is answering your questions.
18 I mean later on when you've started.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness DD/10,
20 can you hear me? I'm speaking to you, the Presiding Judge. Can you hear
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, you will read
24 the solemn declaration.
25 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
1 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 WITNESS: WITNESS DD/10
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
5 The usher will show you a piece of paper which should have your
6 name on it and you will answer only by yes or no. Is that your name or
7 isn't it?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are having problems with the
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Witness, you will now
12 be answering questions asked by Mr. Deretic.
13 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. As we
14 have to take the particulars, could we go into private session, briefly.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, very well. We shall move
16 on into private session.
17 [Private session]
13 Page 10653 – redacted – private session
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We are back in open
5 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Witness DD/10, do you know when did the attack on Prijedor take
8 A. Yes, on the 30th of May 1992.
9 Q. At that time did you work for the police?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what was your job there?
12 A. I was a [redacted].
13 Q. And after following the attack on Prijedor, do you know if any
14 investigation and collection centres were formed in the Prijedor
16 A. Yes. Two investigation centres were set up.
17 Q. Just wait a moment until my question is interpreted into English.
18 Will you please be so kind as to answer my question?
19 A. Yes. Two investigation centres were set up at Omarska and
20 Keraterm, and the collection centre at Trnopolje.
21 Q. Were you assigned to work in one of those?
22 A. Yes. I was assigned to the Omarska investigation centre.
23 Q. When?
24 A. I came to the investigation centre in Omarska on the 5th of June
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 Q. Could you please repeat the date once again? Could you please
2 repeat the date?
3 A. On the 5th of June 1992.
4 Q. And what was your job there?
5 A. My job was to be a [redacted].
6 Q. And who assigned you there?
7 A. It was the camp commander, Simo Drljaca, who assigned me there.
8 Q. And until when did you stay at the Omarska Investigation Centre?
9 A. I stayed at the investigation centre at Omarska until the 25th of
10 July, 1992.
11 Q. And why did you stop working there on that date?
12 A. I left the Omarska Investigation Centre on my own, at my own will.
13 Q. Witness DD/10, do you know Zoran Zigic?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Did you used to see him at the Omarska Investigation Centre?
16 A. Yes. Only once.
17 Q. Can you tell us, when was that?
18 A. It is difficult to remember after nine years, but I can do it
19 because I came to work on the 5th, and that was the first working weekend,
20 Saturday and Sunday, so that I began to work officially on the 8th. And I
21 brought [redacted]I didn't
22 know how to use, so it was about two days after --
23 Q. Will you slow down, please.
24 A. So it was some two days later that I saw Zoran Zigic.
25 Q. Could you tell us, when was that, approximately?
1 A. Well, now, I can say almost to a day since my work began there on
2 the 8th, that was my first working week, and it was a Monday, that is when
3 I started working in total there, so it could have been the 10th of June.
4 Q. Which year?
5 A. 1992. I'm referring to 1992 all the time.
6 Q. And do you remember when you saw Zoran Zigic, was he -- did he
7 have a bandage at the time?
8 A. Yes, yes, and it really struck the eye. What I could see was a
9 fresh bandage, a very white bandage on his left hand, if I remember
10 properly, and he had his arm flexed. And that is what I paid most
11 attention to.
12 Q. Do you remember what he was wearing at the time?
13 A. Yes, yes, of course I do. He had an army camouflage uniform and a
14 red beret on his head.
15 Q. Witness, on that occasion, could you see if Zigic perhaps had
17 A. No, no. And I really paid attention to Mr. Zigic.
18 Q. Do you remember if at that time he wore black gloves with the
19 fingers cut off?
20 A. Oh, come. How could I see a white bandage if he had gloves? It
21 doesn't sound very logical.
22 Q. When you saw him, was it in daytime or was it at night?
23 A. Well, I cannot really remember, but I'm sure it was in daytime
24 because my -- I worked from 8.00 in the morning until 5.00 in the
25 afternoon, so that it was daytime, no doubt.
1 Q. And that day, did you see him again that day?
2 A. No, and even then I saw him only by accident.
3 Q. Do you know if he was alone on that occasion or was somebody with
5 A. I have to tell you the whole story; namely, I just happened to see
6 Zoran because I wanted to say hello to somebody else, and that person must
7 have been with him. It is a guy, young man, called Nikica Janjic. And I
8 wanted to say hello to him, so I approached the window, and it was only
9 incidentally that I happened to see Zigic.
10 And there were also some other persons in military uniforms, one
11 or two, but they were all dispersed over the pista, so perhaps I didn't
12 record the exact number, but there were several men dispersed there, three
13 or four men, including Zigic.
14 Q. Did you know why Zoran Zigic had come to the Omarska Investigation
16 A. No, I did not comment on that. It was only the next day that I
17 heard other people who talked. It was mostly the security people who
18 brought the information. That is how I heard it.
19 Q. Tell us, please, the room that you worked in, where was it?
20 A. It was on the first floor, the first office to the right.
21 Q. Do you know the term "pista" from the Omarska Investigation
23 A. Yes, yes, of course.
24 Q. What was it, in fact?
25 A. Well, it was a rather large area with concrete, covered in
1 concrete. It was a rather wide area around the administration building,
2 and we called it "pista."
3 Q. The office that you worked in, did it have any windows?
4 A. Yes, it did. It had windows overlooking the pista.
5 Q. Were they glazed?
6 A. Of course they were. They were windows with glass panes through
7 which you could see a large part of the pista and quite a bit of area
8 beyond it.
9 Q. A moment ago I asked you if you knew why Zoran Zigic had come
10 there to the Omarska Investigation Centre. I apologise, I interrupted
11 you. Could you now answer it?
12 A. Yes. It was only the next day that I heard that [redacted],
13 one of the inhabitants of the investigation centre, had been beaten, and
14 that it had been done by Mr. Zoran Zigic. And some others also beaten,
15 Beganovic, I don't know his first name, and allegedly it was Nikica Janjic
16 who had beaten him. And [redacted] also got his share. They were all
17 beaten up. But I know very well that they said that it was Zoran Zigic
18 who had beaten [redacted].
19 Q. Witness DD/10, have you heard of the name of Becir Medunjanin?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know who was that or rather what was that?
22 A. Well, in view of the jobs that I performed, of course I had to
23 know what was that man.
24 Q. What did he do -- what was he before the war?
25 A. Becir Medunjanin was a man who had been appointed the chief of the
1 defence ministry department in the municipality of Prijedor.
2 Q. Do you know if that man was brought to the Omarska investigation
4 A. Yes, I do know it because I saw it with my own eyes.
5 Q. Could you tell us when was he brought to the Omarska investigation
7 A. I have to tell the whole story because the 11th of June is a very
8 important date for me, and I can use it as a reference point then to
9 describe the whole thing, that is, the 11th of June, it is a private
10 thing. It is a birthday in the [redacted] family, and I wanted to have that
11 day off to be able to mark that birthday and to accord all my attention to
12 a little girl whose birthday it was, but they would not allow me to. And
13 then the next day, which was the 12th of June, Becir Medunjanin was
14 brought in.
15 Q. Were you present, were you at your workplace when Becir Medunjanin
16 was brought?
17 A. We were all there. I mean the staff who worked there, I mean.
18 That is, it was toward the end of our working hours, if I may call them
19 that, when we were about to go home. And we were all set to leave and
20 somehow spontaneously we happened to be in the doorway, and we couldn't go
21 down the stairs because we were bringing Becir Medunjanin in the company
22 of members of his family.
23 Q. And what were your working hours, what were your working -- when
24 did you -- what were your working hours in the Omarska investigation
1 A. Well, we started at around 8.00, 8.00 until about 5.00 in the
2 afternoon, sometimes shorter, sometimes longer hours, but roughly it was
3 around -- until about 5.00 in the afternoon.
4 Q. And that day which you mentioned, at what time was he brought in?
5 A. Well, that day when we stayed somewhat longer because I remember
6 it was already dusk and we had our lights on already, because the
7 passageway was rather dark.
8 Q. Was he brought alone?
9 A. No, he was brought in the company of his wife and son.
10 Q. What state was Medunjanin in, I mean physical state when he was
11 brought in?
12 A. Well, Becir Medunjanin was a man who had been beaten up. One
13 could see that he had been beaten up. He could barely climb up the
14 stairs. One had to climb two or three stairs to reach the passage, the
16 Q. Do you remember if his head was injured?
17 A. I remember a detail which had to do with his nose very well. He
18 had a rag, a piece of cloth. It wasn't bandaged. One could barely
19 distinguish his face. The eyes, I couldn't even see them properly he was
20 so badly beaten.
21 Q. And after he was brought to the Omarska investigation centre, do
22 you know where he was put?
23 A. Well, as I performed my duties --
24 Q. Wait a moment until it is interpreted for the record.
25 A. Well, I have to repeat it. As I performed my duties, I rarely
1 moved about or knew where people were put so that I -- in point of fact, I
2 don't know where he was.
3 Q. Did you -- were you aware of the "white house," did you hear of
4 the "white house"?
5 A. Yes, I did hear about it.
6 Q. Do you know if he was perhaps put there when he was brought there?
7 A. A few days later I heard that that was where he was. A few days
9 Q. And after he was brought to the Omarska investigation centre, do
10 you know if he was ill-treated physically again?
11 A. It was practically a daily occurrence. Somehow he had a mishap to
12 get several blows when he arrived at that very moment.
13 Q. Do you know why was he beaten?
14 A. Well, Becir Medunjanin to my mind, from at least what I had to
15 [redacted] and what people said in those statements, in their notes, one could
16 guess that he was an important man of the Muslim people. That is a man
17 who, to put it simply, created that armed attack, who threatened people
18 not to turn their weapons down. And he was also closely associated with
19 Muhamed Cehajic, the key Muslim man in the municipality of Prijedor, and
20 another man very active in the SDA who was also closely linked to Sarajevo
21 and Prijedor, and that sort of thing.
22 Q. And do you know what happened to Becir Medunjanin?
23 A. All I can say is what I heard, but I must tell you in some
24 detail. I worked in an office which was --
25 Q. Will you please slow down because it has to go into the record.
1 A. The office that I worked in was a [redacted]
3 [redacted], that is, on a table there was a small radio
4 station, so it was a sort of combination. But what is to my mind very,
5 very characteristic is that everybody passed through that office.
6 Everybody had the right to enter it as they pleased, starting from the
7 investigators who interrogated people down to policemen who would come
8 from outside, that is, there was simply no order, no discipline, nothing.
9 Q. So do you know what happened to Becir Medunjanin?
10 A. Well, now, on the basis of what I've just described, of course one
11 could hear all sorts of information and disinformation there, and some
12 three or four days later on, I can't remember exactly, but I think it must
13 have been some three or four days later because interrogations went on and
14 so I heard that Becir Medunjanin and a Hankin succumbed to all that
16 Q. Do you know when was that?
17 A. What do you mean?
18 Q. You said three or four days later. Can you tell us when did they
19 succumb? I think you mentioned two persons.
20 A. Yes, Hankin and Medunjanin. I remember well that that is what was
21 said because that is what I heard. It was sometime around the 16th or the
22 17th, I'm not quite sure, because the interrogations lasted for about
23 three or four days. So it could have been the 17th that I heard about
25 Q. Do you know who killed Becir Medunjanin?
1 A. Well, all I can say is what I heard, because from the place that I
2 worked, I could not see anything. I could only listen to people who came
3 with such information. So I remember a comment or two from a man who
4 worked for the security, whether they were two inspectors, I cannot really
5 be specific. And I heard from them the story, and they emphasised that
6 the "white house," the "white house" was now lighter by two of its
7 inhabitants. And then in the story, they also mentioned a man who could
8 have done that.
9 Q. And was a name mentioned?
10 A. Of course. In that conversation, that is what I tried to hear,
11 really, who could have done it, yes. The name, the full name, the first
12 and the last name were mentioned. One Duca Knezevic's name came up. That
13 is what I heard. I only heard that.
14 Q. Witness DD/10, do you know what happened to Becir Medunjanin's
15 wife and son?
16 A. No, I do not know.
17 Q. Just one more question. While you were there during that time
18 frame, did you hear from anyone -- did you hear anyone mention Zoran
19 Zigic's name in any way whatsoever, but in relation to the death of those
20 two men that you just told us?
21 A. No. I am absolutely positive about that. Zoran Zigic was not
22 mentioned in -- at no context at all -- in any context at all.
23 Q. Even though you've already testified so, but one of those days,
24 did you hear from anyone that he had seen Zoran Zigic in the Omarska
25 Investigation Centre in that compound?
1 A. No. I did not, nor did -- nor is that name characteristic of
3 Q. Thank you very much.
4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence for now
5 has no further questions.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
7 Mr. Deretic. Witness DD/10, you are now going to answer questions put to
8 you by the Prosecution -- no, just one moment. Mr. Jovan Simic. Go
9 ahead, please.
10 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Examined by Mr. J. Simic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Witness DD/10, who questioned the detainees in
13 the investigation centre of Omarska?
14 A. The inspectors working there did that.
15 Q. Were they from your service, these inspectors, or were they from
16 different services?
17 A. Well, there were three lines, state line -- state security,
18 military security, and public security, so they came from those three
20 Q. At the investigation centre of Omarska, were the chiefs of those
21 services present there too?
22 A. Yes, they were.
23 Q. Who were the chiefs?
24 A. The state security, the chief was the reserve worker, Mirko Jesic;
25 from the public -- military security, his surname was Majstorovic, and the
1 public security sector, it was Ranko Mijic.
2 Q. These chiefs, were they superior to the inspectors?
3 A. That is what it should have been in the hierarchical sense, they
4 should have been their superiors.
5 Q. Can you tell us who was -- who those chiefs were responsible to?
6 A. The main person who was responsible for all of us was Mr. Simo
7 Drljaca, the camp commander, and we were all subordinate to him.
8 Q. Witness DD/10, you worked as a [redacted]. That means that you [redacted]
9 [redacted] made by the detainees that had been taken by
10 the inspectors previously; is that right?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. Can you tell us whether [redacted] of detainees who were
13 classed into certain categories, category one, two, and three?
14 A. I had my colleague [redacted], and we both did the work. We shared the
15 work out between us, but yes, we [redacted]too.
16 Q. Can you tell us who compiled those lists? Where were they
18 A. The lists were made up with the investigators, together with their
19 chiefs. They would compile the lists.
20 Q. Witness DD/10, do you happen to remember or do you know that in
21 a -- at a certain time in the investigation centre, there was a group of
22 investigators from Banja Luka present, was there? Do you happen to know
24 A. Yes, that's right, there was a group. I called it a team. The
25 Banja Luka team, that's how I referred to them, but that doesn't mean that
1 they were actually from Banja Luka. They used pseudonyms and they said
2 what they -- what suited them best.
3 Q. Can you tell us what -- how they behaved and who was their
4 superior? Do you happen to know?
5 A. Well, they were sort of freelancers, if I can say that, put it
6 that way. They didn't have any boss or chief, although they were
7 combined, and they were all combined into this inspectors' team. But I
8 must say with reference to those people, that they were the ones who most
9 often physically abused the detainees that they interrogated.
10 Q. Witness DD/10, did you [redacted] of people who were
11 transferred to Manjaca, and if so, where are those lists?
12 A. Yes, [redacted], but that came at the end when the centre
13 was being disbanded, closed down.
14 Q. Where did you [redacted] that out?
15 A. [redacted] when we went back to our workplaces, that is to
16 say, to the building of the [redacted].
17 Q. Do you know who compiled the list, who ordered that a list of that
18 kind be compiled?
19 A. Simo Drljaca did all this. He was asked about everything, and he
20 decided everything.
21 Q. May we clarify that for the record. The building [redacted],
22 where is the building? You mean in Prijedor, is that building in
23 Prijedor, or in the investigation centre?
24 A. No. I meant in Prijedor, and at the end when the investigation
25 centre was closed down, that's what I meant.
1 Q. Witness DD/10, do you know Dragoljub, Drago, Prcac?
2 A. Yes, I do know him.
3 Q. When the war broke out, was he an active police officer or was he
4 a retired person?
5 A. Drago is a pensioner. He was retired, but he was mobilised as a
6 reserve policeman. He was ordered to go to Omarska.
7 Q. Can you tell us when he arrived at the investigation centre? When
8 did he start working there?
9 A. He came fairly late in the day, after Miroslav Kvocka left. It
10 could have been some 20 or more days before. Sometime in July, but as
11 time flies, I would put it sometime in mid-July.
12 Q. According to what you saw, was Drago Prcac anybody's superior?
13 A. Oh, no. Drago Prcac is a policeman just like all the others, and
14 I'd like to emphasise that he was a reserve policeman.
15 Q. You worked together with him, did you not, in the same room?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you explain to us what he did? What was his job? What were
18 his duties? What was his working day like?
19 A. Well, I didn't see Drago Prcac every day, but when I did meet him,
20 I would look him -- see him by the communications system. He would be
21 maintaining the communications, or one of the investigators or the chiefs
22 of the investigators would bring him a list of two or three men, with two
23 or three names on the list, and he was assigned to see whether those
24 people were actually there. That would be one of his duties, for example,
25 to see whether the people on the list were actually there, or he would
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 have another duty to perform.
2 Sometimes Zeljko Meakic would give orders to him or some of the
3 chiefs of the inspectors, and then he would bring some people up for
4 questioning. He would be given a list with names on it. He would go and
5 look for those people and bring them in for questioning. And sometimes he
6 would read out the names of these people from the list together with the
7 policemen that were guarding the centre, and they were -- or he would have
8 a list of people who would be transferred to Trnopolje.
9 So those were his duties. That is the work he did, more or less.
10 Q. Did Drago tell you how he happened to come to the investigation
11 centre, what the conditions and circumstances of his coming were?
12 A. Yes. I had the honour of listening to Drago Prcac, and he was a
13 very quiet man, withdrawn man, but he wanted to tell me a secret but said
14 that I mustn't use it, that it should remain just between the two of us,
15 confidential. And he trusted me.
16 What he did was actually he complained. He said it was very
17 difficult for him, that he had been sent to the centre, and he tried to
18 explain this to Simo Drljaca. He said that he was a very sensitive man,
19 and that his health was poor, and that he didn't like being there, but
20 Simo Drljaca, as was his style, ordered him to go and to act as a
21 reinforcement in the centre because there were not enough people. And he
22 threatened him. He said he might be swallowed up by the dark or that he
23 would have his head unless he followed orders, and so Prcac obeyed orders
24 and came to Omarska.
25 Q. Witness DD/10, how would you describe Drago Prcac as a man and his
1 position in the investigation centre?
2 A. I've already said, Drago Prcac was a policeman, a police officer
3 like any other, but by his nature, he's a very quiet and calm man. He is
4 less communicative than other people, perhaps. He's a very withdrawn man,
5 and that's what he was like.
6 Q. Thank you. I have no more questions, Witness.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead please.
8 MR. LUKIC: The Defence of Mr. Kvocka would have to put a few
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead.
11 MR. LUKIC: I would like to put those questions in Serbian
12 language [redacted].
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
15 A. Good morning.
16 MR. LUKIC: I don't know if I mentioned the name, so if necessary,
17 corrections would be made in the transcript.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 MR. LUKIC: It hasn't been entered so it's okay. Thanks.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Good morning, Witness DD/10. My name is Branko Lukic and I
22 represent, together with my colleague Mr. Krstan Simic, the Defence of
23 Mr. Kvocka. My questions will be related to Mr. Kvocka mostly.
24 Do you know Mr. Miroslav Kvocka?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. How did you come to know Mr. Kvocka?
2 A. I've known Miroslav Kvocka from ages ago, far before these
3 unfortunate investigation centres were set up. I knew him as a policeman,
4 as a police officer who had worked in the police force for quite a number
5 of years. I know him as my neighbour. We live in the same neighbourhood,
6 so I know him well.
7 Q. When you came to the Omarska investigation centre, did you meet
8 Mr. Kvocka there?
9 A. Yes. Upon my arrival, the first day I arrived on the 5th towards
10 evening, I met [redacted], and saw Miroslav. I saw Zeljko Meakic.
11 Whether anybody else was there, I don't remember. But I remember that
12 Miroslav Kvocka was there.
13 Q. Do you know, during the time you spent in Omarska, what function
14 Miroslav Kvocka had in the investigation centre of Omarska?
15 A. In my testimony I have mentioned policemen from the beginning, and
16 he was one of the policemen. A police officer whose duty it was to
17 provide security for the premises and for the people there, and that was
18 what Miroslav Kvocka was. He was from those ranks.
19 Q. You mentioned the room you worked in. Who went into that room,
20 which people? Can you give us more details about that?
21 A. I think that I have already said that the room -- that there was a
22 lot of coming and going into that room, and that I reacted to that. I
23 didn't like so many people going in and out because anybody could go in
24 and out whenever they felt like it. They would either be policemen from
25 the security, or the inspectors, and there were no set rules as to who
1 could go in and out. That was something I criticised. I didn't like all
2 those people coming in and out when I was doing my job.
3 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Prcac is not
4 feeling well. May he leave the courtroom, please?
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead. Go ahead.
6 [The accused Prcac withdrew]
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam registrar, have you asked
8 to have a nurse attend to Mr. Prcac?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. I just called the nurse so she
10 is on her way.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
12 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Witness DD/10, you said today that you came to
15 the Omarska investigation centre on the 5th of June 1992. Can you tell
16 us, after your arrival, how long you worked with Miroslav Kvocka at the
17 investigation centre?
18 A. Well, about two working weeks, perhaps less, perhaps more, but
19 thereabouts. About two working weeks. But let me stress that we worked
20 Saturdays and Sundays as well on occasion.
21 Q. Can you describe to us the events -- what happened when your
22 children were brought from Banja Luka, when that happened?
23 A. On the 15th of June 1992, it was a Monday, I asked Miroslav Kvocka
24 to help me, because Banja Luka is half way from Omarska, whether I could
25 bring my children from the Banja Luka area to Prijedor. And Miroslav did
1 that. He helped me.
2 Q. Do you remember what date that was?
3 A. Well, yes, I just said that it was the 15th, because ten days
4 after my arrival at the investigation centre in Omarska, my children were
5 in the Banja Luka area, and I decided to bring them home.
6 Q. After bringing your children, did Miroslav Kvocka turn up to work
7 in the next few days?
8 A. No, and I remember that. He wasn't back three to four days after
9 that, and you could notice that Miroslav Kvocka wasn't around.
10 Q. Let us now go on to another area. I'm going to ask you a question
11 about uniforms. Do you know the difference between a military camouflage
12 uniform and a police camouflage uniform?
13 A. Well, if -- what kind of an employee would I be working at the
14 police station if I didn't know the difference. A military uniform is
15 basically green and has some of the patterns more prominent whereas the
16 police uniform is blue.
17 Q. What kind of uniform did Miroslav Kvocka wear during the time he
18 was in Omarska, at the investigation centre of Omarska I mean?
19 A. I remember it very well. For a time he wore a military uniform,
20 or he wore a police uniform with a shirt and trousers because it was hot,
21 so combined.
22 Q. The police uniform, was it the regular police uniform or a
23 camouflage police uniform?
24 A. Well, it was the regular, standard police uniform, the pants, I
25 mean the trousers, whereas the top part, the shirt would be the army
1 camouflage type of shirt.
2 Q. During your stay at the investigation centre, did you ever see
3 Miroslav issue orders to anybody?
4 A. No, never. Never heard him, never saw him do that. They were all
5 more policemen, the same sort of policemen of the same rank. All the
6 police officers there were the same.
7 Q. Miroslav Kvocka, during the time he spent at the Omarska
8 investigation centre, did he ever bring in parcels of any kind, packages,
9 and if so, how often? Do you happen to remember?
10 A. Well, it wasn't only Miroslav Kvocka who did that. Everybody did
11 that. Perhaps he did it a little more, more frequently. He would bring
12 them in quite frequently, in fact.
13 Q. After he left the investigation centre, did you, yourself, bring
14 in some parcels to his in-laws?
15 A. Well, I tried to because he was away. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Who sent those packages, parcels?
17 A. His wife, Jasminka, had three of her brothers there, his
18 brothers-in-law. And she would organise this and send the parcels and I
19 would take them in.
20 Q. One more question for you, Witness. When you, yourself, brought
21 in the parcels, did Miroslav come to the investigation centre of Omarska
22 at all?
23 A. I said that I brought in the packages because Miroslav no longer
24 came. Miroslav had received an order to be elsewhere. Perhaps he just
25 turned up once after he had been given orders to leave. That might have
1 been at the end of June on one occasion, I can't quite remember, but I do
2 remember him coming in once.
3 Q. After Miroslav left Omarska, how much time went by until Mr. Prcac
5 A. I said about 20 days later, thereabouts, perhaps a little less, a
6 little more. But I think that Miroslav left towards the end of June.
7 Whether it was the 23rd, or 24th, or 25th, I'm not sure, but it was
8 sometime around that date.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Witness DD/10, I have no more
10 questions for you. [In English] Thank you, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
12 Would any of the other Defence counsel like to ask questions?
13 No, I see negative signs coming from the Defence.
14 Mr. Jovan Simic, as you know, Mr. Prcac isn't with us. I'd like
15 to know what your position is with respect to his absence?
16 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we can continue the
17 proceedings and we'll see during the break how Mr. Prcac is feeling, but
18 we're prepared to continue without him.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Mr. Jovan
20 Simic. I see that Mr. Saxon is getting ready to conduct the
22 Witness DD/10, you'll now be answering questions put to you by the
23 Prosecutor, Mr. Saxon.
24 Mr. Saxon, your witness.
25 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:
2 Q. Witness DD/10, just to clarify something that you said at the
3 beginning of your testimony, you said that in 1992 you worked for the
4 police --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Saxon, could you come closer to the
6 microphone, please.
7 MR. SAXON: I apologise to the interpreters. I will do my best to
8 master all the technology that I have in front of me.
9 Q. You said that in 1992 you worked for the police as a [redacted] and
10 a [redacted]. Was it really the police that you were working for or was it
11 actually another agency within the public security station that you worked
13 A. I worked for the police force, that is to say, I, although I come
14 from the state security sector, I was ordered to go to the Omarska
15 investigation centre, and the only reason that I was sent there was that I
16 was an experienced [redacted]. And that [redacted]
17 [redacted], and we all worked together. There are no divisions in our work.
18 As a [redacted], I was absolutely on -- [redacted]
19 [redacted]. We did the same work and had
20 the same [redacted] status.
21 Q. And the difference in responsibilities between the state security
22 sector and the police sector, can you describe those, please?
23 A. I have to emphasise that there are two sectors, two different
24 services. They are quite separate, work separately, but they can do some
25 work together if the need arises. They can do a job together if the need
2 Q. You didn't quite answer my question. Maybe I'll try to put it
3 more simply. What is the work or the obligation of the state security
4 sector, or what was the work of that institution in 1992?
5 A. I have to apologise, but you are asking somebody of a lower level,
6 a [redacted] which I am. I am at a lower level. I can only speak about my
7 [redacted] job. All the rest is up to the other people that do that kind of
8 work. I am a lowly employee.
9 Q. All right, I'll move on. I'd like to ask your help in helping all
10 of us understand the work that you did on that first floor of the
11 administration building in the Omarska.
12 MR. SAXON: If we could distribute, please, copies of Prosecution
13 Exhibit 3/223A and B. If copies of these photos could be given. These
14 were disclosed previously to the Defence. If they could be given to the
15 Judges at this time, and if a copy could be placed on the ELMO, please, so
16 that the witness can see it and everyone else in the courtroom. If a
17 copy, please -- Mr. Usher, if you could put 3/223A on the ELMO.
18 Q. As you can see, Witness DD/10, this is a photograph of the first
19 floor corridor of the administration building at Omarska.
20 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, I'm still going to need your help, so
21 please don't go too far.
22 Q. This photo is fairly dark. This was the original photograph taken
23 by the office of the Prosecution.
24 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, could you please now put 3/223B.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, when were these
1 photographs taken?
2 MR. SAXON: In January of this year, Your Honour.
3 Q. Witness DD/10, do these photos substantially depict the corridor
4 of the first floor of the administration building as it was when you
5 worked at the Omarska centre in 1992?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Okay.
8 MR. SAXON: The second photo that is now on the ELMO has -- which
9 is 3/223B, is the same photograph as 3/223A, but it has been computer
10 enhanced to improve the lighting and contrast. I simply wanted to explain
11 that to the Trial Chamber.
12 Q. You see, Witness DD/10, if you take a look at the photograph
13 that's on the machine to your right, there's a room at the end of the
14 hallway. Do you know what that room was used for in 1992, if you recall?
15 A. Well, those people who were the head of investigators, Mirko
16 Jezic, Duca Knezevic, Majstorovic. I mentioned them already. That is
17 where they sat.
18 Q. All right. Would you agree that you can work the length of that
19 corridor in about 30 steps, more or less?
20 A. Thereabouts, give or take. Depends on the step.
21 Q. All right, that's fair. Can you please -- you mentioned the room
22 where you worked during your direct testimony. Can you please -- there is
23 a pointer next to you, next to your water glass. Can you pick up that
24 pointer, Witness DD/10, and can you indicate, if you can see it, if you
25 can see it here, the room where you worked or the doorway to the room
1 where you worked.
2 A. The -- no, the first comes the toilet room and then right after it
3 is our room.
4 Q. All right. I don't know if you have a pen in front of you; if
5 not, I'd ask the usher to give you my pen. If you could write the letters
6 "DD/10" with an arrow pointing to that doorway, please, just to help us
7 understand how that area was set up.
8 A. [Marks].
9 Q. And did you write "DD/10"? I see an arrow; I don't see your
10 pseudonym. Could you, please.
11 A. [Marks].
12 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness DD/10, did you only work in that room, or
13 did you work in other rooms on that corridor?
14 A. No. I told you already that it was the [redacted], and that is
15 where [redacted] were, and we did not work anywhere else, including
16 that colleague of mine. Only in that room.
17 Q. Were you ever present in any other rooms when interrogations were
18 going on?
19 A. No, not as a rule.
20 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
22 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a certain
23 misgiving with regard to this photograph. This photograph does not
24 show -- well, it was taken in January, but this interior has not changed,
25 but we cannot see which is the first room. I was there, and I know that
1 there were four rooms on the right-hand side, and two toilets, so two
2 toilets. And we cannot see here which is this room, the first or the
3 second, but there is another exhibit which the Prosecutor already adduced,
4 and that was a model of the ground plan.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Simic. Could
6 you -- you can ask, then, as an additional question. I think it would be
7 much better. Just let the witness answer these questions, and then you
8 can ask your supplementary questions, and you will then clarify all of
9 this for us.
10 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I simply wanted to
11 help, to make it more precise. I'm not trying to say anything to the
12 witness, I'm just --
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but as you know, there is
14 time when you can help it. Do it when it is -- when it is your turn for
15 supplementary questions, you can clarify it. If we keep making objections
16 and explanations with the witness there, of course the witness hears that
17 and listens to that, so we are even unwittingly helping or leading the
18 witness. So you will have the opportunity, ask your supplementary
19 questions to understand this better.
20 I myself also have some questions with regard to this photograph
21 because I do not -- you're quite right, I don't know whether there are
22 five or six or how many, but if I start doing this now, I can influence
23 the witness. So let the witness answer the questions which everybody
24 wants to ask, and after that, you can come back to this and ask your
25 additional questions, all right?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 Yes, Mr. Saxon. But thank you, Mr. Simic.
2 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour, and I do --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Saxon.
4 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I do understand that Mr. Jovan Simic is
5 acting in good faith; he wants the record to be clear. It is simply our
6 understanding that these kinds of questions can be addressed during
7 redirect examination. That is the purpose of redirect.
8 Q. The entrance to your -- excuse me, Witness DD/10, I had asked you
9 before the interruption whether you were ever present in other rooms where
10 interrogations were going on. Your response was, "Not as a rule." What
11 does that mean?
12 A. Well, practically never. I only stayed in my room, in the room
13 where the [redacted] went on. And as a witness, I must also give you my
14 opinion about this photograph.
15 Q. Witness, Witness --
16 A. All I know is --
17 Q. I have to interrupt you. I want to stick to the question that I
18 asked you, all right? And then there will be time later on for you to
19 clear up any confusion that may exist regarding the photograph, all right?
20 Your answer to my question was, "Practically never. I only stayed
21 in my room." Is that your testimony?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. SAXON: Can we have a copy of Prosecution's Exhibit 167
24 distributed, please? We have them, I believe, here on the cart. If one
25 could be placed on the ELMO and a B/C/S version provided to the witness.
1 We have copies for the Judges as well.
2 This is the record of the interview that the Prosecution performed
3 with the accused Dragoljub Prcac. It was admitted into evidence last
4 October, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I believe we already have this
6 document, Mr. Saxon.
7 MR. SAXON: We do. I just want the Trial Chamber to be able to
8 follow along because I'm going to ask the witness about this document.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. It's
10 very thoughtful of you, but you are giving us too much paper. We've
11 really got too much paper already.
12 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, if you could provide -- does the witness
13 have the B/C/S version in front of her? Mr. Usher, if you could place
14 page 139 of the English version on the ELMO.
15 Q. Witness DD/10, if you could please turn to page 91 of the version
16 that's in your language in front of you. Witness DD/10, you have a copy
17 in front of you. Please turn to page 91.
18 MR. SAXON: Can we go into private session, please.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us go into private
21 [Private session]
13 Page 10685 – redacted – private session
13 Page 10686 – redacted – private session
13 Page 10687 – redacted – private session
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we are in open session. Go
6 Before you do that, I should like to ask a question.
7 Mr. Deretic, the -- it was mentioned that the witness, in view of
8 what she did -- if we disclose it, can it imperil her identity if we say
9 what she did in the camp? I am not saying the activity, I am not
10 pronouncing it, but do you understand what I'm saying? Because whenever
11 the profession or the job that the witness did there, do we have to redact
13 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Mr. President,
14 and I think so, yes. Therefore, you are absolutely right. I think that
15 that part of the text should be redacted.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We shall proceed,
17 but perhaps one should find a way to find a code word, "What did you do
18 during what you did in the camp or in the performance of your tasks or
19 something?" Something because -- but not be explicit because we cannot go
20 back into private session when we mentioned the tasks which the witness
21 performed. So will you please bear this in mind so that we can work in a
22 normal way.
23 Thank you very much, Mr. Deretic. You may sit down.
24 MR. SAXON: Yes, I will honour that request, Your Honour.
25 Q. You mentioned that Becir Medunjanin was brought to the Omarska
1 camp around the 12th of June. You said he could barely climb up the
2 stairs, but he did walk up those stairs, didn't he?
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. First, there's about five stairs starting from the ground floor up
5 to a landing where there's a window and then there's another five stairs
6 coming up to the first floor corridor; isn't that right?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. Now, you mentioned that it was -- the ill-treatment and beating of
9 Becir Medunjanin was practically a daily occurrence. How did you know
11 A. Well, I cannot speak about that in general, but the office next to
12 me where there were men whom I had mentioned, the inspectors who addressed
13 one another with their code names. They had this practice and it was
14 enough for me to then say what they did.
15 Q. What practice was that that you're referring to in the next room?
16 A. Well, simply, people would be brought in for an interview, and
17 then one could hear cries of pain, so logically somebody is beating
18 somebody there. I must say that that was not the kind of approach that I
19 was used to in the service that I had worked in, and it was all very
20 unusual to me.
21 Q. So while you were working in that first room on the right, you
22 could hear the sounds of mistreatment coming from the room next to you; is
23 that a fair statement?
24 A. It is, yes. That's right. There was such noise that I couldn't
25 focus [redacted].
1 Q. During the time that Miroslav Kvocka worked at the Omarska camp,
2 would he ever be present in that room where you were working?
3 A. He would be there now and then in passing. He was mostly outside,
4 I mean outside the room. But from time to time, he'd be there.
5 Q. Did Miroslav Kvocka say anything ever about sounds coming from the
6 room next door to yours?
7 A. We did not comment that. We commented it very seldom. I suppose
8 it is a rule I may have been the one who initiated such behaviour because
9 in practice when I work, I can't really talk much, so that I brought that
10 kind of practice to that room too.
11 Q. And, ma'am, if I understand you then correctly, your colleagues
12 who were working there, like Mr. Kvocka, essentially shared that same
13 practice of not talking about what was going on; is that right?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. How about Dragoljub Prcac, was he ever in the room where you were
16 when there were beatings going on in the next room?
17 A. It is possible during those ten days that I spent there working
18 together with Dragoljub Prcac. That possibility cannot be excluded, that
19 he was there and listened.
20 Q. You mentioned that Becir Medunjanin was an important man of the
21 Muslim people. Would it be fair to say that he was one of the leaders of
22 the Muslims?
23 A. Yes, that is right.
24 Q. And you also mentioned that Becir Medunjanin was closely
25 associated with Muhamed Cehajic. That person, correct me, please, he was
1 either the mayor of Prijedor or the president of the executive committee;
2 is that correct?
3 A. He was the mayor of the municipality of Prijedor.
4 Q. And Mr. Medunjanin was a close associate of Mr. Cehajic, right?
5 A. That is right, they were the front men in the town of Prijedor.
6 Q. Mr. Cehajic was a Muslim; is that right?
7 A. That is what -- how he declared himself.
8 Q. At that time in the Omarska camp in 1992, was it considered an
9 appropriate reason to beat someone, the fact that they were a leader of
10 the Muslim ethnic group and that they were associated with a Muslim
11 political leader? Was that considered an appropriate reason?
12 A. Well, I have my answer. We should have asked Mr. Simo Drljaca,
13 and I am really sorry that he is not sitting in my place. He'd give you
14 the right answer.
15 Q. Shall we take that answer as a yes or a no?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Very well. You mentioned that Becir Medunjanin and someone named
18 Hankin succumbed to all that beating. Do you know if a coroner was ever
19 called to perform an autopsy on Becir Medunjanin?
20 A. Well, I don't know much about that, if a doctor can do that.
21 Well, there were physicians who dropped by. I really can't say anything
22 about it.
23 Q. Did a physician ever drop by, to your knowledge, to examine Becir
24 Medunjanin while he was being interrogated and mistreated over three or
25 four days down the hall from where you were sitting?
1 A. No, I did not see it in the passage. But a doctor came one, two
2 days, three days, and I suppose he came to extend medical aid to people
3 who were detained there. We had yet another physician from amongst the
4 ranks of their ethnicity, and he helped too. At least they said that he
5 was a physician.
6 Q. Did you have access to a telephone where you were sitting in that
7 office, or a radio?
8 A. No. We did not have a telephone in the office that we worked in.
9 It was a small radio station which the police used, and we were only at
10 our [redacted].
11 Q. You said that after the death -- that when Becir Medunjanin and
12 Hankin died, someone said to you, "The `white house' was now lighter by
13 two of its inhabitants." How often did people at the Omarska camp make
14 those kinds of comments?
15 A. It was by sheer accident. Normally the administration did their
16 job, but every now and then I'd register just information, if I paid
17 attention, if I heard what they were saying. I cannot tell you how many
18 times, but that was a characteristic element, and that is why I noticed
20 Q. After you -- when you were discussing the death of Becir
21 Medunjanin during your direct testimony, you said that you never heard
22 Zoran Zigic's name mentioned in any context at all. However, earlier in
23 your testimony you said that after the [redacted]
24 [redacted] and others, you said that the following day the security
25 people said that Zoran Zigic [redacted]. So in fact, on
1 at least one occasion, Zoran Zigic's name did come up in the context of
2 mistreatment of prisoners, isn't that true?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, would it be a
5 convenient time to make a break?
6 MR. SAXON: I will leave that to the Trial Chamber, Your Honour.
7 By my calculations I was going to go until about 1.15. I don't know if
8 the Trial Chamber wants to take a break now or work until then.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We shall take a break now, then.
10 There are reasons for which we are doing that.
11 Witness DD/10, we shall now take a break. I shall ask the usher
12 to put down the blinds so that you can leave, but don't move for the time
14 Fifty minutes.
15 --- Recess taken at 1.02 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 1.55 p.m.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
18 Mr. Jovan Simic, could you bring us up to date with respect to
19 Mr. Prcac?
20 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Prcac has been
21 transferred to the detention unit. His blood pressure is going up and
22 down. Ms. Vera Petrovic, the physician, is attending him. I think that
23 he is a little better, but that's all that I can tell you for the time
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] May we continue then?
1 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. We hope
3 that his health will improve and let us have the witness brought in now.
4 Have you had a good lunch, Witness?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have. Thank you.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Saxon, please
8 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Witness DD/10, I would like to go back briefly to the death of
10 Becir Medunjanin at the Omarska camp. You mentioned that after he was
11 brought to Omarska, Becir Medunjanin was put inside the "white house." My
12 question for you is: Were you ever present in the "white house" during
13 the days that Becir Medunjanin was confined there?
14 A. No, never.
15 Q. So you really don't know who killed Becir Medunjanin, do you?
16 A. I don't know. I did hear about it, but I personally do not know.
17 Q. Regarding Simo Drljaca, you mentioned that he was the commander of
18 the Omarska camp. Did Simo Drljaca maintain his office in Omarska or
20 A. Unfortunately, he didn't have one in Omarska.
21 Q. When Simo Drljaca was not at Omarska, was there anyone in charge
22 of the Omarska detention centre and all of the prisoners detained there?
23 A. I don't know, but I say with full responsibility that it was Simo
24 Drljaca alone and nobody else.
25 Q. You testified that in the middle of June 1992 for three to four
1 days, Miroslav Kvocka did not come to work at the Omarska camp and that,
2 "You could notice that Miroslav Kvocka wasn't around." With all of the
3 people working at the Omarska camp, what was so special about Miroslav
4 Kvocka that you would notice when he was not present?
5 A. Well, it was normal for me to notice whether somebody was absent
6 if I had got used to seeing those people around. As for Miroslav Kvocka,
7 he was an active-duty policeman whom I knew better for that reason, as I
8 did some of the other active-duty policemen.
9 Q. As an active-duty policeman, to your knowledge, did Miroslav
10 Kvocka have any extra responsibilities at the Omarska camp?
11 A. As far as I know, no. Just a policeman.
12 Q. You testified a bit about Dragoljub Prcac, and you testified that
13 sometimes Zeljko Meakic would give orders to Dragoljub Prcac to bring
14 prisoners for questioning, et cetera. Tell me, why did Zeljko Meakic give
15 these orders to Mr. Prcac and not to another guard?
16 A. Perhaps he was -- if he was close at hand, if Drago Prcac was
17 close at hand, he would give a -- give it to him, but any other policeman
18 could do the same.
19 Q. How often was Dragoljub Prcac close at hand to Zeljko Meakic?
20 A. I noticed that he was in our room very infrequently, but he would
21 come by. How often, I couldn't say.
22 Q. When you say "he," just so we're clear, are you referring to --
23 when you say that "he was in our room," are you referring to Mr. Prcac?
24 A. Yes, yes. It was in answer to your question whether he -- how
25 frequently he ordered Dragoljub Prcac to do this. He would give orders to
1 Dragoljub if Dragoljub was there. But he could just as well have given
2 the task to some other policeman if he was around at the time.
3 Q. When Dragoljub received those orders from Zeljko Meakic, when
4 Mr. Prcac received such orders, to your knowledge did Mr. Prcac obey them
5 and carry them out?
6 A. Yes. As a rule he would carry them out. He would get the order
7 to organise the -- if people were coming in, a van bringing in three or
8 four people, then Dragoljub -- it would be Dragoljub's task to take their
9 particulars down, to write down their names on a list, an ordinary piece
10 of paper, [redacted], and Dragoljub would take
11 the list over to where the investigators were, or rather, the chiefs of
12 the investigators.
13 Q. When you say, "If people were coming in, a van bringing in three
14 or four people," are you referring to new detainees, people -- new
15 prisoners being brought in to Omarska?
16 A. Yes, yes. In the two months or two and a half months which is how
17 long the investigation centre went on, but in the meantime new people
18 would be brought in.
19 Q. You explained how Dragoljub Prcac told you that it was very
20 difficult for him to work at the Omarska camp because he was a very
21 sensitive man. What was it about the Omarska camp that offended
22 Mr. Prcac's sensibilities?
23 A. I think Dragoljub Prcac would agree with me, that was what I felt
24 and I think that was what he felt, that the conditions for work were very
25 bad in the room we were working in. For example, there was a sort of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 unpleasant smell which pervaded the premises, and for me, these were not
2 the conditions that I was used to working in. There was a lot of noise,
3 lots of coming and going. There were electricity cuts, and a generator
4 would be switched on. And to make the smell better, the chlorine would
5 be -- the floors would be washed down with chlorine, so I think that's
6 what that referred to.
7 Q. So just so that I understand you, what was difficult -- what made
8 it difficult to work at the Omarska camp for you and for Mr. Prcac was the
9 work conditions that you had to work in; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's true. And let me add this: As a woman, I found it
11 very difficult to hear the physical abuse of people and their screams and
12 moans, and this was difficult for me to support.
13 Q. You described how Simo Drljaca told Dragoljub Prcac that if
14 Mr. Prcac did not follow his orders and continue to work at the Omarska
15 camp, Mr. Prcac would be "swallowed by darkness" or he might lose his
17 So I can assume, then, Mr. Prcac then followed his orders and
18 stayed at the Omarska camp until it closed sometime in August 1992; is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, if Mr. Prcac arrived at the Omarska camp sometime in July of
22 1992, this would have been after Miroslav Kvocka had transferred from the
23 Omarska camp to the Tukovi police station department; is that right?
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 Q. Tell me, was Miroslav Kvocka swallowed by darkness after he left
1 the Omarska camp and went to work at Tukovi?
2 A. No, he was very lucky. But that was the wish of Simo Drljaca. It
3 was Simo Drljaca's orders, and he respected that order and followed it.
4 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I have to lodge an objection. I heard
5 Mr. Kvocka say something. I don't speak his language, but I heard it loud
6 and clear over here, so I'm sure the witness heard it. I simply don't
7 think I can conduct a fair cross-examination if the accused are stating
8 things that obviously the witness can hear.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, I think that all of
10 us heard that. I did too. I don't know what Mr. Kvocka said, but I don't
11 think the witness was influenced by that.
12 But in any case, I would like to ask the accused not to make any
13 comments out loud even if you are speaking amongst yourselves, and I say
14 this to the Defence and the Prosecution as well. We don't -- when we have
15 ear sets on our heads, we don't realise how loud we are speaking. So
16 please pay attention to that.
17 Mr. Saxon, please proceed.
18 MR. SAXON:
19 Q. Witness DD/10, you could have left the Omarska camp as well,
20 couldn't you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But you chose to stay; isn't that true?
23 A. Yes. Yes. But I left at my own initiative nonetheless. I left
24 Omarska camp myself.
25 Q. But you chose to stay until the 25th of July 1992; is that
2 A. Yes, that's correct. When I became less afraid, I got up my
3 courage to confront Simo Drljaca with all of this.
4 Q. And after you confronted Simo Drljaca, you left the camp; is that
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Did you lose your head?
8 A. Well, I was extremely lucky not to lose my head. And I have a
9 tale about that and justification, probably because I was a woman, and
10 probably because I was not one of his employees directly linked to the
11 state security centre. Perhaps I was very lucky in that respect.
12 Q. You did not lose your job either, did you?
13 A. No, I did not, precisely because of what I just explained. The
14 people where I worked backed me up.
15 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, may we go into private session for the
16 last few minutes of my cross-examination, please?
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let us move into private
18 session for a few moments.
19 [Private session]
13 Page 10701 – redacted – private session
13 Page 10702 – redacted – private session
24 [Open session]
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, any re-examination?
1 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Mr. President. May I go
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.
4 Re-examined by Mr. Deretic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Witness DD/10, you said while you were in your
6 room that, among other things, you heard moans coming from the
7 neighbouring rooms; is that true?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you able to hear the conversation going on in the adjoining
10 rooms, in the neighbouring rooms?
11 A. No. That I could not.
16 the colleagues who worked there?
17 A. No. I just heard about it, but I wouldn't know it as a fact for
18 myself because I wasn't able to see anything or hear anything unless I
19 heard it from somebody, unless somebody told me.
20 Q. Can you be more specific and tell us about the two people that the
21 "white house" was lightened, that term was used? Did you hear who did
22 the act of lightening, who did that?
23 A. According to the conversation the two policemen, the two
24 inspectors, I can't say for certain, but I heard a conversation, and I
25 remembered it. It lodged in my mind. I heard this conversation, and
1 that's what I told you, and I can repeat that. They said it was
2 Medunjanin and Hankin, and perhaps the Hankin stayed in my mind more than
3 the Medunjanin, but I say with full responsibility that the two names were
4 mentioned in the same breath.
5 Q. Those two names -- that is to say, was the "white house" really
6 lightened from those two names by the people that you mentioned here?
7 A. Well, I can't claim that. I don't know the people who were
8 talking, who were engaged in conversation. I don't know who they were.
9 Q. I don't think you understood me, Witness. Let me ask the question
10 again. Those two people, were they directly linked to the name of Dusko
12 A. I heard the name and the surname during their conversation, but
13 who the person was, I don't know. I don't know to what individual this
14 name was linked.
15 Q. What impression did you get? Who killed those two people after
16 that conversation?
17 A. Well, it was my impression that Medunjanin and Dusko Knezevic, I
18 linked the two together. Why, I don't know.
19 Q. And I have just one more question for you. Was it customary in
20 your room, in the room you worked in when the people who worked with you
21 came to give you your assignments, was it usual to talk about the more
22 important events that took place in the Omarska Investigation Centre?
23 A. Well, there, yes, that would be standard practice, but the
24 information usually came from the security guards. They had more time.
25 They would walk up and down and spend their time talking. They would
1 start talking about those things, and I was just there listening without
3 Q. Thank you, Witness.
4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic.
6 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I'd like
7 to ask the usher to give us a document, Prosecution document 3/77B, and
8 place it on the ELMO.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Mr. Simic. Microphone,
11 Re-examined by Mr. J. Simic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Witness DD/10, this diagram represents the lineup
13 of the rooms on the first floor. Can you tell us exactly what room you
14 worked in?
15 A. I can see the diagram clearly on the screen. If the toilet is B7
16 and B6, if those are the toilets, then I was in B5.
17 Q. Thank you. You worked together, at least that's what we learnt
18 from your testimony, for some ten days with Mr. Prcac; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How many times did you see Mr. Prcac in the course of those ten
21 days in the Omarska Investigation Centre?
22 A. Well, very rarely. I can't venture an exact number, but let's say
23 five times during the day. I would meet him -- actually, I saw him, that
24 he was there.
25 Q. Thank you. And my last question: You answered a question from
1 the Prosecution and you said that you and Mr. Prcac didn't like some of
2 the things in the investigation centre. Could you be more specific?
3 Could you tell us what it was that you -- the two of you didn't like?
4 A. I think it was the conditions we worked in, that the stench, the
5 unpleasant smell which pervaded the premises more and more every day. And
6 I think he would agree with me that it was this smell, it suffocated me.
7 It was impossible to be there with that smell. It was a terrible smell.
8 Q. Let me ask you this, do you consider that Mr. Prcac agreed with
9 the beatings of the prisoners?
10 A. Oh, no, absolutely not. No question of that.
11 Q. You think it bothered him?
12 A. Well, of course. A man like him, an honest man and a quiet man
13 like him, of course it bothered him.
14 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have
15 no further questions.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, any additional
18 MR. LUKIC: I don't have any further questions. Thank you.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE RIAD: Witness DD/10, good afternoon. Can you hear me?
22 A. Good afternoon. Yes, I can hear you.
23 JUDGE RIAD: I'd just like to clarify certain points, one of two.
24 You mentioned in your answer to Defence lawyer Mr. Lukic, you said that
25 Mr. Kvocka's occupation was to secure the investigation centre and the
1 persons in it.
2 Now, was this something different from what all the others did or
3 was it the job of everybody in the camp?
4 A. All the policemen there and outside the building, around the
5 building, was duty-bound to secure the premises and the people on them,
6 not only Kvocka, but all the other policemen. All the police force.
7 That's why they were sent there.
8 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, I mean on equal footing or was there some kind
9 of what you call hierarchy, some people were more responsible than others?
10 A. No, there was no hierarchy. All of them were equally responsible.
11 JUDGE RIAD: And then you said that he helped you, he offered you
12 help when your children came and so on. What kind of help did he give
13 you? Did you give you, for instance, a holiday? What did he do?
14 A. No. No. No, he didn't give me a holiday. But we could go by car
15 to Banja Luka so that was the service he did me.
16 JUDGE RIAD: [redacted]
18 thing or did it happen to other people too? Was it the only thing you
19 knew about?
20 A. Well, every beating as a rule, and we're talking about Zoran
21 Zigic. They were private settlings of account between the two of them.
22 JUDGE RIAD: I see. And did he have any other private settling of
23 accounts too?
24 A. I don't know that. But judging by the nature of the man, he was
25 prone to that kind of thing.
1 JUDGE RIAD: You mean violence? And was he important enough not
2 to be stopped by any other person? Nobody could stop him.
3 A. Well, he had that kind of behaviour, and he went into these things
4 personally as far as I know. And looking at Zoran Zigic's life in
5 general, that's what he was prone to do. He was prone to act like that.
6 He liked these excessive situations, and he was that type of personality
7 regardless of the specific events. He could be very dangerous at times.
8 JUDGE RIAD: But you mentioned that when you think about
9 Mr. Kvocka, you think he was responsible of the security of the people in
10 the centre. I mean beating would completely violate this security.
11 A. Yes. Yes. I agree with you. Yes, he would.
12 JUDGE RIAD: What kind of security then was there?
13 A. You would have to ask Simo Drljaca that because nobody could come
14 to the camp. Nobody had access to the camp unless he had a permit signed
15 with the name and surname of Drljaca, and that would be what you would
16 have to have. That was much more important than us there, his famous
17 signature and his famous permits, and we had no influence there. We were
18 quite impotent. The essential thing was that you had to have a permit
19 signed by Simo Drljaca, and we couldn't do anything there and nor could
20 that Kvocka person.
21 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Fouad Riad.
23 Judge Wald.
24 JUDGE WALD: Witness, you told that Mr. Drljaca was the commander
25 of the camp and he -- I think you said that he was the only one who had
1 the supreme power in the camp. At another point you told us that
2 Mr. Meakic gave orders to Prcac to go get certain people to bring them
3 back. What did you understand Mr. Meakic's role to be in the camp? What
4 did you think he was? What kind of authority did Meakic have?
5 A. Well, I can't take it upon myself to give the hierarchy in the
6 police, but looking at it from my point of view, Simo Drljaca was the main
7 person. Meakic would have to ask Simo Drljaca's permission. Nothing
8 happened there without his permission, so I tie the two together.
9 If Simo Drljaca permitted, Zeljko Meakic would behave following
10 that, and that's the truth.
11 JUDGE WALD: So if I understand you, Meakic could give orders,
12 although he might have to get the orders from Drljaca. Now, was there
13 anyone else in the camp that could give orders assuming, again, it somehow
14 came down from Drljaca? But could anyone else give orders to anyone else
15 besides Meakic giving orders to Prcac and maybe other people too?
16 A. I don't think so, no. Even if somebody wanted to order somebody
17 something, only if they had permission from Drljaca and even to me, to a
18 [redacted], I had nobody's orders unless I was ordered by Simo Drljaca.
19 Nobody would even attempt to give me any orders. I was quite free on that
21 JUDGE WALD: Assuming again that somehow all power and authority
22 came down from Simo Drljaca still, during the time you were there, you did
23 see Meakic give orders to Prcac. Whether they came down from Drljaca or
24 not, my question is: Did you ever see anybody else in the camp give
25 orders to people whether or not they got the authority from Drljaca
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 eventually? So you're saying the only person you ever saw give orders to
2 anybody was Meakic?
3 A. Yes. But if I said that Dragoljub Prcac was given an order, for
4 example, to check out where the people were, then he could get the order
5 from the inspectors or the chiefs in charge of the inspectors. So that
6 was a type of order too coming down from the inspectors and their chiefs.
7 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, did you ever see Mr. Kvocka or Mr. Prcac
8 do guard duty, post duty? Did they ever perform guard duty at a post?
9 There were guards there that were stationed at different posts, right?
10 We've heard lots of testimony to that effect. I mean there were people at
11 the entrance or at various places like that. Did you ever see Mr. Kvocka
12 or Mr. Prcac have those kind of guard post duties? No, okay. Thank you.
13 A. Well, a policeman can't be a guard, but let's take it that that
14 was a rule of some kind. I have no example, not a single example of
15 seeing them standing still at one particular spot, either Prcac or
16 Kvocka. They were mobile. They moved around the premises.
17 JUDGE WALD: Okay, thank you.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Wald.
19 Witness DD/10, I also have a few questions for you. You said that
20 Mr. Prcac was a policeman like all the others. Did he wear a uniform?
21 A. Yes. I said that Mr. Prcac when he came to the camp, if we call
22 it a camp, was a reserve policeman. What does that mean? It means that a
23 man had been retired but then he was reactivated and ordered to come, but
24 he doesn't wear a uniform. He is not -- he doesn't have a uniform. He is
25 half civilian, half police, because he has, for instance, the trousers but
1 just a plain civilian shirt. And I believe he had a pistol behind his
2 belt. Did he? Yes, he did, he did.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And, for instance, you
4 distinguish between Mr. Kvocka who is an active-duty policeman and so on
5 and so forth. How did Mr. Kvocka dress in comparison with Mr. Prcac?
6 I'm not getting the interpretation. Can you hear it now? Are you
7 getting it? Can you hear me now?
8 A. I only heard the end, the last bit, so could you please repeat it.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But now you can hear it
10 normally? Right, yes. Thank you.
11 So, Witness, you drew a line of distinction between Mr. Kvocka who
12 was a professional policeman and Mr. Prcac who was a retired policeman.
13 Now, in terms of the uniform, was there any difference between the two of
15 A. No, there was no difference. When a reserve policeman is hired,
16 he is just as responsible as the active one. There is no difference.
17 They simply carry out the duties that they were made responsible for,
18 except that they are reserve policemen, because they do not come regularly
19 to work, and Kvocka has to come to work regularly.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But with regard to the uniform.
21 A. Well, what can you imagine Kvocka to turn up in civilian clothes
22 while being an active policeman? Excuse me, can that be?
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I can imagine, but I should be
24 able to imagine it when it comes to Mr. Prcac, is that what you're trying
25 to say?
1 A. Yes, of course. What would that look like?
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, right, all right. Perhaps
3 my imagination is not all that rich. I will agree with you.
4 But DD/10, will you please tell me, you spoke about the presence
5 of Mr. Kvocka in your office at the time one could hear screams, moans, et
6 cetera -- no, that is another question, excuse me.
7 Mr. Kvocka was in your office. I'm asking you: Was Mr. Kvocka in
8 your office at the time when one would hear those screams and moans from
9 behind the wall?
10 A. Well, I cannot be quite sure about that. What I can say is that I
11 heard it. Whether Kvocka heard it, I cannot really speak on his behalf,
12 but I heard them.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You also said with regard to the
14 lightening of the -- in burden of the "white house" by two men, and you
15 said that there were two policemen that you heard it from. Could you tell
16 us who those policemen were? Perhaps you don't remember the names, but I
17 should like to know something else, nevertheless. Who were those
19 A. Well, those were men, I keep saying, those are policemen who
20 provided security for the whole facility. I cannot really describe them
21 in any close detail, but they were people who were on the outside, who
22 secured the building, and who would come by information or disinformation,
23 and who would then take advantage of something like that.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right. So this information from
25 your point of view could have also been disinformation; is that it?
1 A. Yes. Well, at that time I took it to be information because they
2 were to be eyewitnesses, because they were discussing it between them, and
3 I could not be there because I was in that room. But there were people
4 who walked around, who could exchange the views and talk and exchange
5 their opinions, and those are the kind of stories that came out.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Tell me, those policemen, how
7 often did they come there?
8 A. I already said in my testimony that it was very often, which
9 bothered me as a [redacted] who was entitled to the best possible working
10 conditions, but nobody, none of us, received any protection in that
11 regard. Anybody -- people came and went as they pleased. Nobody
12 accounted to anyone, and we, the [redacted], being the [redacted] could not
13 establish any order, and Simo Drljaca was the only person who perhaps
14 could help us in that regard.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Tell me one thing: Did you
16 understand why did everybody frequent that office? Were they looking for
17 something? Did they come because they were looking for something? What
18 was your impression? Why did all those people come to that office?
19 A. Well, they were often there because they were bored. They would
20 have a walk, perhaps you will laugh, but there were two ladies -- or
21 perhaps somebody would have a look, say something, so that would be it.
22 Other times they needed to use the communications equipment, so that was
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right. But those policemen who
25 gave you this information, they were there almost daily. You saw them
1 often, didn't you?
2 A. Well, I cannot say if they were there day in and day out, those
3 men who talked, but they had to be there. Whether it was one shift today
4 or perhaps if it was another day, I don't know, but they were there all
5 the time. I cannot say that they were there day in and day out, but that
6 day I heard that comment.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Tell me something else: How did
8 -- how did it happen? They would come to see you and your colleagues,
9 they would say something to you, they would move over to the equipment and
10 listen to something. What was it like?
11 A. I remember very well. I would be [redacted],
12 [redacted], and they would be talking amongst themselves. But perhaps
13 this is my professional deportment. Also, I tried to hear what they are
14 talking and I'm [redacted],. Now, how fast I'm [redacted], that is, of
15 course, my problem, but I'm listening to what they are saying and I'm not
16 commenting. And they're doing it between themselves and I'm merely taking
17 note of that.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You also told us that one needed
19 a pass to enter the camp and it had to be signed by Simo Drljaca. And
20 what about Zeljko Meakic, could he also issue such a permit authorising
21 people to enter the camp?
22 A. No, nobody could enter with Zeljko Meakic's permit because --
23 because he didn't have the authority in terms of seniority, no. That was
24 a completely different man with completely different duties. And the camp
25 commander who is above all, above all of us, above Zeljko Meakic and
1 [redacted] and above everybody else. He is God.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Tell me, who could issue orders
3 to you? Who did you --
4 A. Nobody could directly. I'm a [redacted]. I know what my duties are.
5 I was told to work there. There was no need for anybody to give me any
6 orders. I'm an experienced woman, and I know very well what is my duty
7 and how much I have to do, what I have to do, so nobody issued any direct
8 orders to me.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay, very well. Now, just to
10 finish, you are somebody who spent many years in the police, you told us,
11 and so on and so forth. How can you imagine that this centre functioned
12 without somebody issuing orders, without an organisation, without a chain
13 of command? What did you observe there? What do you think? How could
14 that be done?
15 A. Yes. Yes, thank you. You've enabled me now to give you a
16 complete answer to that question, because in my testimony here, of all
17 that I told you, I'd merely like to point out that I left the
18 investigation centre or the camp at my own initiative. Precisely because
19 I objected against such organisation of work. I was simply not used to
21 Everybody police should have the hierarchy, the chain of command.
22 It was so novel to me that one man had all the -- pulled all the strings
23 so that -- so that when I saw that, I went and faced up to Simo Drljaca
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, DD/10, we do not have
1 any further questions for you. Your testimony is over. Thank you very
2 much for coming. Don't leave your seat yet because the blinds have to be
3 pulled down and the usher will then help you leave the courtroom. Thank
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am sorry, but I did not tell
7 the parties that we shall be adjourning, adjourning at quarter to 3.00,
8 but I saw that Mr. Deretic wanted something, but whatever it is we can do
9 it on Monday because I promised an adjournment at quarter to 3.00.
10 Yes, Mr. Deretic.
11 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I merely wanted to
12 draw your attention that the witness by inadvertence mentioned her name
13 and it is in record page 98, line 7. That is all.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, madam registrar, I believe
15 have a slight problem to resolve. Yes. Very well. Do you see it? Page
16 98, line 7. It has to be deleted. It's already been done? Right. There
17 is somebody who takes care of these things.
18 Yes, Mr. Saxon, I think we shall address this document next Monday
19 because I really need -- and we're already five minutes late as against
20 what was said before. So next Monday we shall be back here and then we
21 shall address the matter of that document. Yes, Mr. Saxon.
22 MR. SAXON: I heard my name mentioned. I was merely rising with
23 the Trial Chamber.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I saw you stand up so I was
25 merely addressing to you. I was still sitting so this is it, hence the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 confusion. You were on your feet and I was sitting. Nice weekend to
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
4 at 2.52 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday
5 the 23 day of April, 2001, at
6 9.20 a.m.