Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10612

 1                          Friday, 20th April 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m.

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Please be

 6    seated.  Good morning ladies and gentlemen.  Good morning to the technical

 7    booth and the interpreters.  Good morning to the registry staff, the

 8    Prosecution and Defence.  We're going to take up our work today.

 9            I don't know if Ms. Susan Somers has some information to impart or

10    would you prefer to give us that information at a later time?

11            MS. SOMERS:  Having gone through a number of documents concerning

12    any specific -- specifically set forth incidents in the indictment, I

13    cannot identify any specific incidents dated from the period that is

14    covered by this document, I think it was 20/4 or 4/20 of the Defence.

15    However, as I had indicated to the Chamber a few days ago, the phrasing of

16    the indictment is such that it includes the time periods and when it

17    speaks of -- it would be Counts 1 through 13 on the indictment which

18    mentions Zigic, and -- I'm sorry 1 to 3, 1 to 3, and 6, and 7 of the

19    indictment, the -- and 11 to 13.

20            All paragraphs of the indictment refer to between 24 May 1992 and

21    30 August 1992, Zigic and others participated, et cetera, et cetera,

22    including -- and then if there were some specific things, they were set

23    forth, but the including is an indication by the Prosecution that these

24    are just a few of the named events in the time period that were set forth

25    with that much specificity in the indictment.  However, acts occurring

Page 10613

 1    between those times would, of course, be in consideration.  But I read

 2    Judge Wald's question and it was specifically the charge things.

 3            Further, I thought it might be wise to review the unsworn 84 bis

 4    statement of the defendant Zigic and to see what reference, if any, might

 5    have been made and I -- I only have the LiveNote cites if the Chamber

 6    wishes the cite, but they are record cites.  There is no actual reference

 7    to any incarceration during that period.  It was not raised, although

 8    there was the reference to the alleged alibi of the Room 3 massacre time

 9    frame.  The other witnesses, the alibi witnesses, the Sikics, did not

10    address this.

11            There are documents which the Prosecution intends to use next week

12    or in its rebuttal case as well, but principally next week, that discuss

13    Zigic's criminal past, and the only reference that we have is a July 1

14    document signed by Drljaca requesting that Zigic be sent.  There is no

15    document ever indicating that he, in fact, was sent to any incarceration.

16    These documents were part of the seizure, and there was a file, a Zigic

17    criminal file containing, presumably, all documents concerning any such

18    incidents, and there is noticeably absent any record of Zigic having

19    served.  In our view, this calls into question a summary prepared for

20    litigation document that is what has been presented in 20/4.

21            The Prosecution stands firm in its position that it is

22    inappropriate at this time to allow the dropping of an alibi in response

23    to the Prosecution's 3/249.  I'm sure the Chamber has had an opportunity,

24    I hope -- I know that everyone is very busy, but if the Chamber has had an

25    opportunity to look carefully at that document, that document refers to a

Page 10614

 1    compilation on the 4th of July.  It is not suggesting that there was any

 2    activity on the 4th of July.  And in fact, the criminal file of Zigic

 3    talks about activity that occurred in June.

 4            There is nothing that we have been able to track to date that

 5    shows any incarceration.  If the Chamber accepts it, accepts the document

 6    over our objection, we simply ask that it give it the weight we believe it

 7    is due, which is none.

 8            But I have tried to make as thorough a search under the time

 9    constraints, and a number of the documents are not translated that I've

10    had to work through.  If there is any change in circumstances or should I

11    find anything, I will immediately inform the Chamber, but as I say, the

12    only document that even suggests that action may have been initiated was

13    one by Drljaca on the 1st, and then referring on the 2nd, there's another

14    document which talks about the incident of the 10th of June which concerns

15    the two Muslims whom Zigic took out of the camp.  And this has been

16    essentially, from what I can determine, the sum total of any evidence.

17    Again, noticeably missing in Zigic's own unsworn statement and noticeably

18    missing in his alibi witnesses' sworn testimony.

19            If I can answer any further questions, I'm very happy to.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Ms. Susan

21    Somers.

22            I think, Mr. Deretic, that that was the information that Judge

23    Wald and the Chamber asked Ms. Susan Somers to supply us with, so we're

24    not going to open up the debate.  We've already heard the arguments with

25    respect to this issue.  We have taken note of the information supplied to

Page 10615

 1    the Chamber, and we shall render our decision accordingly.

 2            Mr. Deretic.

 3            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may just state

 4    my views in one sentence:  I hope that the Defence of Mr. Zigic will have

 5    occasion with respect to this document, that is to say, 3/249, present its

 6    definite position -- definitive position.  I can do that now, of course,

 7    but I can do that on another occasion.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What I meant was not to open a

 9    debate.  Do you have anything new to add?

10            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely so.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you do it in three minutes'

12    time?

13            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I think I can.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead, then.

15            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence of

16    Mr. Zigic would like to stress first of all that this document should have

17    been disclosed much earlier in conformity with Rule 66 of the Rules of

18    Procedure and Evidence.  It is very strange that this official note is

19    being put forward at this point in time, although allegedly it was

20    compiled in 1992 and three years after Zoran Zigic coming before this

21    Tribunal and raising the indictment against him.

22            The Zigic Defence thus considers that it is a fabricated document

23    which is in the function of the accused Dusko Sikirica, because it does

24    not have the protocol registration number or reference number so as to be

25    able to check out the authenticity of it in the official records.  At all

Page 10616

 1    events, the Defence insists that this Chamber be presented by the original

 2    official note -- presented with the original official note in view of the

 3    justified doubt as to its authenticity and verisimilitude.

 4            On the basis of Article 89 (E) we furthermore request, that is, of

 5    the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, that this Trial Chamber should

 6    request a confirmation of the authenticity of this official note, all the

 7    more so as an official note of this kind can be fabricated anytime, now,

 8    anytime, because it does not contain the reference protocol number and, as

 9    such, can always be compiled without being -- its authenticity being

10    established or the verification of its authenticity being made.

11            We should like to stress, in particular, that the Prosecution is

12    trying to present the document through a Defence witness.  Whenever the

13    Defence in the proceedings so far attempted to do the same, to introduce a

14    similar document through a Prosecution witness, and the witness contested

15    the truth of the contents of such a document, the Defence, each and every

16    time, its objections were rejected and its proposal to have that document

17    introduced into evidence as an exhibit, as evidence, was rejected.

18            As we have not, therefore, adhered at all times to the Rules of

19    Procedure and Evidence to which we referred, and as our request was not

20    met, at this point in time, I should like to say that I am opposed to

21    having this document admitted into evidence.  And two more sentences, if I

22    may.  When we are talking about document D20/4, it is directly related

23    to --

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic your three minutes

25    are up, so please conclude.

Page 10617

 1            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] All I wanted to say is that document

 2    D20/4 is directly related to the Prosecution document 3/249.  And we

 3    should like to substantiate the facts of the Defence and the testimony

 4    given by Witness DD/9 and not -- we did not, at any time, mention that we

 5    are offering a Defence by alibi.

 6            That is all, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

 8            Ms. Susan Somers, we have raised the question of authenticity.

 9    We've discussed all the other aspects, but do you have anything to say

10    with respect to authenticity?

11            MS. SOMERS:  Your Honour, consistent with what the Chamber has

12    requested of us in other cases where this has come up, I would be very

13    happy to present, from the investigative official who was one of the

14    seizing officers, a declaration, a certification of -- from where the

15    document came and if the Chamber will give me time to do it I will present

16    it.

17            JUDGE WALD:  Can you add anything on the question he's raised

18    about the protocol number?

19            MS. SOMERS:  I would have to study it to know whether or not

20    there's any merit to that argument because every document, including

21    Defence documents, seems to have its -- I shall not say every document, I

22    would strike that.  But most documents have different formats and I will

23    make inquiry but, no, not at this time.  But may I have the Chamber's

24    indulgence to present the declaration from our investigator?

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  And there was another

Page 10618

 1    question raised, I think, by Mr. Deretic and that was the matter of the

 2    original.  Do you have the original, B/C/S original?

 3            MS. SOMERS:  I will talk to the evidence unit to see what was

 4    seized.  It is very possible that an original was not seized, but whatever

 5    was seized I will ask to have shown to the Court along with the

 6    declaration, if that's satisfactory.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You, therefore, know what

 8    matters have been raised.  We shall wait for a response.  We shall wait

 9    for you to provide us with this additional information to be able to make

10    a decision.  Thank you, Ms. Susan Somers.

11            And now to wind up the question of the documents, I'm going to ask

12    madam registrar the results of the question we raised yesterday with

13    respect to knowing whether the document, that is to say, marked by the

14    Prosecutor 3/263 and 3/264, whether they were documents that were

15    previously admitted or not.  Have they already been admitted or not?

16            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, my answer remains the same.  These

17    two document have never been admitted before.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  Therefore, having heard

19    that, I think we can say that these two documents, if there is no

20    opposition from the Defence, that is to say, 3/263 and 3/264 are admitted

21    into evidence as of this moment.  They have been tendered and are

22    admitted.  As to the rest, we are going to wait for Ms. Susan Somers to

23    supply us with the additional information we need in order to proceed.

24            Mr. Deretic, I think that having said that, we can now hear our

25    next witness; is that right?

Page 10619

 1            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Yes.  The

 2    Defence of Mr. Zigic calls its next witness, Mr. Drazen Kroca.

 3                          [The witness entered court]

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Drazen Kroca,

 5    can you hear me?

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the

 8    solemn declaration that's been handed to you by the usher.  Please go

 9    ahead.

10            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

11    whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12                          WITNESS:  DRAZEN KROCA

13                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.  Put your

15    headset on, and please approach the microphone so that we can hear you

16    properly.

17            Let me start off by thanking you for coming.  You are now going to

18    be answering questions put to you by Mr. Deretic after which the

19    Prosecution and Judges will be asking you question.  But for the moment,

20    it is Mr. Deretic's turn.

21            Mr. Deretic, your witness.

22                          Examined by Mr. Deretic:

23       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kroca, can you hear me?

24       A.   Yes, I can.

25       Q.   Could you give us your full name, please.

Page 10620

 1       A.   Drazen Kroca.

 2       Q.   Your parents' name?

 3       A.   My mother's name is Kata, my father's name is Ivica.

 4       Q.   When and where were you born?

 5       A.   On the 22nd of October, 1964 in Prijedor.

 6       Q.   Where do you reside today?

 7       A.   In Prijedor.

 8       Q.   What is your ethnicity and religion?

 9       A.   I am a Croat of the Roman Catholic faith.

10       Q.   What are you by profession?

11       A.   I am a baker.

12       Q.   Are you employed?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Where?

15       A.   In the Institute for the Protection of Handicapped Children.

16       Q.   Mr. Kroca, were you mobilised as a soldier after the war began in

17    the former Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18       A.   Yes, I was.  I was mobilised on the 9th in the then SFRY.  My

19    call-up papers came on the 28th of September 1991.

20       Q.   Do you remember whether the call-up was in writing, in written

21    form?

22       A.   Yes, it was.

23       Q.   Do you know who signed it; do you remember?

24       A.   Madunjanin, the Defence minister at that time in Prijedor.

25       Q.   Do you know Zoran Zigic?

Page 10621

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Since when have you known him?

 3       A.   Since childhood.

 4       Q.   Do you live in the same neighbourhood where the Zigic house is?

 5       A.   Yes.  Zigic's house is about 200 metres from my own.

 6       Q.   Were you friends as children?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Did you grow up together?

 9       A.   Yes, we did.

10       Q.   Do you know whether Zoran had a hobby of any kind during his

11    youth?

12       A.   Yes, he did.  He played the guitar.

13       Q.   Did he have a band of any kind?

14       A.   Yes, he did.  He had a band, a group, and it was called Klas.

15       Q.   Were you present when the band played?  Did you go to the

16    gatherings where they played?

17       A.   Yes.  Whenever there was enough room in their van, I would go with

18    them.

19       Q.   We're now talking about the pre-war period.  Can you just describe

20    in a few words Zoran Zigic as a person.

21       A.   Yes, I can.  Zoran Zigic was a good friend.  He liked to help

22    others, but he liked to be the leader.  He liked to be in the -- focus of

23    attention, but always among friends.

24       Q.   As you spent this whole period together, your childhood together,

25    did you ever notice that Zigic, Zoran, differentiated between people on an

Page 10622

 1    ethnic basis?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Did you ever come into a conflicting situation with him, any

 4    arguments with him?

 5       A.   No, never.  He was always very fair towards me.

 6       Q.   Did you ever hear anybody complain of Zoran that he attacked

 7    people in view of their ethnicity, anything of that kind?

 8       A.   No, I never heard anything like that.

 9       Q.   Can you tell us the national composition, the ethnic composition

10    of your neighbourhood?

11       A.   Well, it's of mixed composition.  There were all sorts.  There

12    were Serbs, there were Croats, there were Muslims.

13       Q.   Prior to the war, did you have a traffic accident of any kind?

14       A.   Just before the new year, and I was already at the front line in

15    Croatia at that time.  We were all going to celebrate -- we should all

16    have been in our unit for the new year in 1991, 1992.  I had a traffic

17    accident in Bosanski Novi.  I was hit by a car.

18       Q.   Were you seriously injured?

19       A.   Well, I was black and blue.  I didn't actually have any fractures,

20    but I was hit.

21       Q.   Could you tell us who visited you as a patient first?

22       A.   Zoran Zigic was among the first people to visit me.

23       Q.   Did he offer to help you?

24       A.   Yes.  He asked me how I was, whether I needed any help, whether I

25    needed anything.  And my mother and I lived alone together.  My mother is

Page 10623

 1    getting on in years, and he wanted to know if my mother needed help at

 2    home while I was recovering.

 3       Q.   After the war began, do you know if Zoran Zigic was engaged in the

 4    army?

 5       A.   Yes, he was.

 6       Q.   Did you see him at that time?

 7       A.   Well, briefly.  We saw each other several times briefly in cafes.

 8    We would have a drink together, have a chat, that sort of thing.

 9       Q.   On those occasions, did you notice any changes in Zoran Zigic?

10       A.   I would say he drank more.  He drank a little more.

11       Q.   Can you tell us how long you saw him during that period of time?

12    Can you give us a sort of time frame?

13       A.   Until 1992, the last time I saw him was in 1992.  It was October

14    or November, I can't quite remember.  We met towards evening in the Oskar

15    restaurant.  We stayed there until closing time, and then we went off to

16    his house and sat around until morning.  And from that time, I didn't see

17    him again.  I didn't see him after that.  I heard he had gone off

18    somewhere.  Whether it was to Banja Luka or Novi Sad, I can't quite

19    remember where.

20       Q.   Mr. Kroca, do you know a person called [redacted]?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Since when have you known him?

23       A.   Since my childhood.  We played together.  We were neighbours.  We

24    lived close to each other.

25       Q.   Does Zoran know him too?

Page 10624

 1       A.   Yes, he does.  Zoran's house is even closer to his house than my

 2    own.

 3       Q.   Do you know what [redacted]?

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12       A.   Yes, yes.

13       Q.   Could you explain, tell us what?

14       A.   Well, we played ball, I think it was ball when we were children,

15    and he thought up a song and sung it to me, and that made me angry.  I

16  [redacted] I was sort of teasing

17    him, and he took a piece -- a brick, and when I turned round, he -- it was

18    a pointed object, and he struck me with it and the point went into my

19    shoulder, and I had two stitches put in, and I still have a scar there to

20    this day.

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23       A.   Well, I can't say whether he did this before the war, whether he

24    changed his name just before the war or after the war.

25       Q.   But do you know that he actually changed his name?

Page 10625

 1       A.   Yes, I do.  I do know that.

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4       Q.   What is it?  What's he called?  What's his nickname?

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7       Q.   And finally, could you tell us once again, generally speaking,

 8    what is your opinion of Zoran Zigic as a person?  What kind of person is

 9    he?

10       A.   Zoran Zigic as a person, as I said, he was a good man, a good

11    friend.  He always wanted to help.  Whenever anybody went to him for help,

12    he would always help them if he was able to.

13            Now, during the war, the war did leave traces on everybody, and he

14    started drinking a little too much, and it was rumoured that he took drugs

15    as well, but I have my own opinion of him, and I knew him before the war,

16    and that's it.

17       Q.   Thank you.

18            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]  Mr. President, I have no further

19    questions for the moment for this witness.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Deretic.

21            Now, Mr. Kroca, you will answer questions that the Prosecution

22    will have for you.

23            Yes, Mr. Saxon.

24            MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                          Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:

Page 10626

 1       Q.   Mr. Kroca, I just want to make sure that your testimony is clear.

 2    You mentioned that you were called up in -- on the -- in September of

 3    1991.  Which army were you mobilised into at that time?

 4       A.   JNA, the JNA.

 5       Q.   And where did you serve beginning at that time for the JNA?

 6       A.   I was on the Banija.

 7       Q.   Where is that?

 8       A.   It's -- now let me see, how shall I explain it?  At Dvor Na Uni

 9    towards Glina.

10       Q.   You'll have to forgive me because I'm not from your part of the

11    world so my knowledge of the geography of that part of the world is not as

12    strong as yours.  Were you serving at that time within Croatia or were you

13    still in Bosnia?

14       A.   Croatia.

15       Q.   Were you on the front line fighting at that time?

16       A.   The JNA.

17       Q.   Yes.  And were you on the front line at that time fighting?

18       A.   I didn't have any armed -- our unit was stationed there, but that

19    was far away from the front line.

20       Q.   Your unit -- was your unit involved in actions against the

21    Croatian people, your own people?

22       A.   I don't understand the question.

23       Q.   Your unit was fighting against Croatian forces; is that true or

24    no?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 10627












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Page 10628

 1       Q.   You mentioned that your call-up papers dated 28 September 1991

 2    were signed by -- the word I heard was signed by Madunjanin; is that the

 3    name that you said?

 4       A.   That's right.

 5       Q.   Do you know the full name of this person Madunjanin?

 6       A.   It escapes me.

 7       Q.   You said, if I understood you correctly, he was Defence Minister

 8    at that time.  Defence Minister for the entire country or were you

 9    referring just to the Prijedor area?

10       A.   In the Prijedor area, in the Ministry of Defence of the town of

11    Prijedor.

12       Q.   And do you know whether his role changed, Mr. Madunjanin's role

13    changed in any way beginning in 1992?

14       A.   I don't understand the question.  I do not get it.  What do you

15    mean?

16       Q.   When you got your call-up papers, you said they were signed, and

17    this is in 1991, by someone named Madunjanin.  My question for you -- and

18    you said that Mr. Madunjanin was the Defence Minister for the Prijedor

19    area at that time.  My question for you is:  Do you know if Mr. Madunjanin

20    maintained that same position during 1992?

21       A.   Yes.  I think so.  I think he did.  I wasn't in Prijedor at the

22    time, but I think he did.

23       Q.   Do you know the ethnicity of this Mr. Madunjanin?

24       A.   Muslim, I think, a Bosniak.

25       Q.   Did you know him at all?

Page 10629

 1       A.   No.  No, I didn't.

 2       Q.   Did someone tell you to mention his name in your testimony today?

 3       A.   No, no.  When we received the call-up, I was in a coffee bar when

 4    I received the summons.  And we were looking at the signature because

 5    there was this rumour spread about that the JNA was the Serb army, and we

 6    really looked at that signature and commented how could a Muslim sign

 7    these papers if the JNA was a Serb army, and that is why the name stuck in

 8    my memory.

 9       Q.   You mentioned that you grew up with Zoran Zigic and that he played

10    the guitar.  Do you know if Zoran Zigic had a music teacher at any time?

11       A.   No.  I think he was self-taught.  Perhaps one of the elder persons

12    perhaps showed him something, but I don't remember him having a teacher.

13       Q.   You mentioned that Zoran Zigic liked to be a leader.  Would you

14    say that before the war in 1992, Mr. Zigic showed leadership qualities?

15       A.   No.  No, that is not what I meant.  What I meant is Zigic, for

16    instance, when he played, if somebody played louder than he did, he would

17    bring down the voltage or put up the voltage for his guitar.

18       Q.   You mentioned the last time that you saw Mr. Zigic was in October

19    or November of 1992 in the Oskar restaurant, I believe it's in Prijedor.

20    And you described how you and Mr. Zigic stayed until closing at the

21    restaurant and then you went to Mr. Zigic's house where you sat around

22    until the morning.

23            Do you recall how many -- was this also the house where

24    Mr. Zigic's parents lived?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 10630

 1       Q.   Can you recall how many doors that house has?  Does it have a

 2    front door and a back door?

 3       A.   How -- I don't understand what do you mean front door and back

 4    door?

 5       Q.   Well, let me put it more simply.  How many entrances, if you know,

 6    how many doors does that house have?

 7       A.   One door, the front door, the entrance door.  And then there is --

 8    and then as you enter, you turn left to the kitchen and the -- no, to the

 9    right is the living-room, that is where the living-room, as you enter, to

10    the right.

11       Q.   Are there any other entrances or exits behind the house or on the

12    side of the house?

13       A.   Well, as you enter, I think you go upstairs, through this front

14    door, through the entrance door.  You then go upstairs.  I think there is

15    a staircase right next to the front door.

16       Q.   I will move on.  Regarding the Oskar restaurant, how close is that

17    or how far is that to the Keraterm factory, the ceramic factory called

18    Keraterm?

19       A.   500, 700 metres, a kilometre.  I don't know.

20       Q.   At any time during 1992, were you detained at all by the Serb

21    authorities in one of the camps or investigation centres?

22       A.   No.  In 1991 right up until 1996 I was engaged in the army, JNA at

23    first and then the army of Republika Srpska.  And at that time I was in

24    the Banja Luka Corps which was then renamed the 1st Krajina Corps, and my

25    unit was stationed near Skender Vakuf which is Knezvo today.  And -- but I

Page 10631

 1    would come home for leave at times, but in 1992, I was transferred to the

 2    Prijedor 43rd Brigade, and I think it was in the middle of August.  And

 3    when I saw Zigic, it was only when I would come home for leave.  For those

 4    two or three days when we would be granted a leave, and even then I would

 5    see him, and then we would sit down and have a chat.  And if I didn't come

 6    across him, then I didn't.

 7       Q.   Who was the commander of your unit in the 43rd Brigade?

 8       A.   When I came, the brigade commander was Zeljaja.

 9       Q.   For what period of time were you based or stationed near Skender

10    Vakuf, if I'm pronouncing it correctly?

11       A.   Not for a long time.  Maybe, maybe a month.  Not more than that.

12       Q.   From when to when?  Which month was it in 1992?

13       A.   April, May.  End of April, beginning of May maybe.

14       Q.   As a Croat, why did you serve in the army of the Republika Srpska?

15       A.   I said that I was mobilised in 1991, and that unit, that corps,

16    then became part of the army of Republika Srpska.  And, you know, I was

17    born in Prijedor.  My parents were born there, so I stayed with those

18    people there.  I didn't want to go anywhere.  I don't know why, I mean ...

19            MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no further questions.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

21            Mr. Deretic, do you have any additional questions?

22            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, a few short questions,

23    Mr. President.

24                          Re-examined by Mr. Deretic:

25       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, would you tell us, what does "JNA" stand

Page 10632

 1    for?

 2       A.   The Yugoslav People's Army.

 3       Q.   And who was it made of when you were mobilised?  What was the

 4    composition of the Yugoslav People's Army?

 5       A.   I can talk about my unit.  Everybody was there:  Croats, Muslims,

 6    Serbs.  Well, Serbs were in the majority, but there were everybody -- and

 7    everybody who happened to be called up because at that time only those war

 8    units were mobilised, not all the units.  There wasn't a general

 9    mobilisation.

10       Q.   You said that the summons was signed, and you mentioned the name

11    of Medunjanin?

12       A.   Yes, yes.  And they said why, but I remembered it [as

13    interpreted].

14       Q.   Do you know when the -- when did the attack on Prijedor take

15    place?

16       A.   30th of April, I think.  I'm not sure.  I can't really remember.

17    I wasn't in Prijedor at that time.

18       Q.   Do you know what happened to the man, to that man afterwards?

19       A.   No.  I mean I heard that he had disappeared, but I don't really

20    know.

21       Q.   You said that you spent your childhood and your youth in Zigic's

22    neighbourhood.  Have you ever been to his house?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Once or on various occasions?

25       A.   On a number of occasions.

Page 10633

 1       Q.   Does that house have a yard?

 2       A.   It does, yes, a small yard.

 3       Q.   How many entrances into that house are there?

 4       A.   There is one entrance.

 5       Q.   And my final question:  Do you visit Croatia even though you were

 6    in the army of -- even though you were in the army of Republika Srpska?

 7       A.   No, I haven't been there yet, even though I do have some relations

 8    there, but I didn't have my papers.  I didn't have a passport.  I haven't

 9    been there yet.

10       Q.   Do you know if there are any other colleagues of yours who were --

11    who were Croats who served in the army of Republika Srpska, do they go to

12    Croatia?

13       A.   Yes.  I know, I know a neighbour of mine who did fight in that

14    army and then went to see Sisak and got married there and found a job.

15            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Deretic.

17            Judge Riad.

18                          Questioned by the Court:

19            JUDGE RIAD:  Good morning, Mr. Kroca.  I just want to ask you a

20    general question.  You were mobilised in 1991, and you said everybody was

21    there, Muslims, Croatians, and Serbs, but you -- then you were sent to

22    fight in Croatia, if I understood rightly?

23       A.   Yes.

24            JUDGE RIAD:  Were there other Croatians going to fight their own

25    people in the army?

Page 10634

 1       A.   Well, those who were in that unit did go.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I mean, the army did not make

 3    any differentiation; they would send people to fight their own people, and

 4    you could not object to that?  You had no right to say no?

 5       A.   That was the only armed force, the Yugoslav People's Army.  It was

 6    still the army.

 7            JUDGE RIAD:  I see.  And you happen to know Mr. Zigic, and you say

 8    that just after the war when he was engaged in the army, he started

 9    drinking.  You saw him some times after that.  What makes you say that

10    there was -- that he started drinking, was it so obvious; and what was his

11    attitude?

12       A.   I don't understand what you mean.  I don't understand the

13    question.

14            JUDGE RIAD:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Riad.

16            Judge Wald.

17            JUDGE WALD:  I just have one simple question, Witness.  You said

18    that you visited Mr. Zigic's house several times, and you also told us

19    that there was a yard around the house, a small yard, I think you said.

20    Was that yard in back of the house or front of the house, side of the

21    house?  Where was the yard?  Was it --

22       A.   In front of the house.

23            JUDGE WALD:  There was no backyard?  We've heard testimony about

24    barbecues being held in the area, but I just wanted to get the location.

25    So that yard was not in the back of the house; is that right?  Is that

Page 10635

 1    what you're saying now?

 2       A.   Where they had barbecues, I don't know, because I had nothing to

 3    do with the barbecue.  But I know that there was this yard in front of the

 4    house, and there was a street, a lane, in front of the house.

 5            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  And to your knowledge, there wasn't a yard in

 6    the back of the house?

 7       A.   I don't know.  Perhaps there was, perhaps there is one now.  I

 8    don't know.

 9            JUDGE WALD:  Okay, thank you.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Wald.

11            You testified, Witness Kroca, that you spent your childhood and

12    your youth in Mr. Zigic's company.  What did you -- what kind of games did

13    you play with Mr. Zigic?

14       A.   Yes.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What kind of games did you

16    play?  What were the games that you preferred?

17       A.   Well, football, mostly.  We mostly played football.  He played the

18    guitar.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the age difference

20    between you and Zigic?

21       A.   Six or seven years, I think.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  How many times did

23    you go to visit Mr. Zigic before the conflict?

24       A.   Well, I can't really remember how many times.  A number of times.

25    Never counted.

Page 10636

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And after?

 2       A.   After the war?

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4       A.   On a couple of occasions.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Several times?

 6       A.   Two or three times.  Two or three times, perhaps.  I can't really

 7    remember.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And you never attended a

 9    barbecue party there?

10       A.   Before or after the war?

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, tell us first before, and

12    then tell us how about after the war.

13       A.   Before the war, if we were to have a barbecue, then it was an

14    outing, then we would go away somewhere.  I don't remember if we had

15    anything there.  Perhaps we did, I don't remember, but I think we always

16    went somewhere for an outing, to Mrakovica, to the Sana banks.  And during

17    the war or after the war, I haven't been to -- I didn't go to any of these

18    barbecue.  I mean we were in different units so that we were never there

19    together.  When we met, it would only be for a very short period of time.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But was it -- was it customary

21    for Mr. Zigic to have a barbecue in his yard, for instance?

22       A.   Yes.  He liked that.  He was quite keen on that, always was.  For

23    instance, we would be sitting somewhere on the curb on the street and he'd

24    say "Yes, let's go.  Let's have some grilled meat.  Let's have some

25    grilled meat or some barbecue," and we'd bring the money together, and

Page 10637

 1    he'd take us in his car and we'd go and buy the meat.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but did you -- were you

 3    invited or were you never invited to join them?

 4       A.   You mean during the war or when?

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Even before the war.

 6       A.   Before the war, we did not really have all those barbecues at his

 7    place.  As I said, we would go somewhere out of the town.  Perhaps he did

 8    have this barbecue because he -- you know, I wasn't in Prijedor, all the

 9    time in Prijedor before the war either.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But my question to you is you

11    were never invited to a barbecue party at Mr. Zigic's; is that your

12    answer?

13       A.   No, I don't know.  I can't remember.  I really can't remember if

14    we had barbecue together in his house.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kroca.  We do not

16    have any further questions for you.  Thank you for coming.  We wish you a

17    happy journey back to your country.  Thank you.

18                          [The witness withdrew]

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, perhaps we can move

20    ahead and have your next witness even before the break.

21            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have a small,

22    teenie-weenie problem here, namely last night when we talked with the

23    witness who was to testify today, she insisted and she was most emphatic

24    that she should be -- that she would testify only with a pseudonym, and

25    that she would also need face and voice distortion, protection.

Page 10638

 1            I took it conditionally as her condition.  I asked her why, and

 2    she said that she came from Prijedor, that she was employed in a specific

 3    service, and she would mention some names in her testimony.  She also told

 4    me that some of the witnesses who had been here experienced some

 5    unpleasantness after their testimony, and she does not want that to happen

 6    to her.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers.

 8            MS. SOMERS:  Your Honour, Mr. Deretic informed me of this

 9    last-minute request prior to the commencement of this session.  Would it

10    be possible to go into private session for just a moment so as not to

11    aggravate a concern on the part of Mr. Deretic?

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Perhaps we could go into

13    private session briefly.

14                          [Private session]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 10639













13  Pages 10639-10645 – redacted – private session













Page 10646

1     [redacted]

 2    [redacted]

 3    [redacted]

 4                          [Open session]

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're going to take a break, a

 6    half-hour break, and reconvene for the next witness.

 7                          --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

 8                          --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

10            Mr. Deretic, do you need to go into private session?  We're in

11    open session now.

12            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Mr. President.  And thank

13    you for suggesting that.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Let us move into private

15    session.

16                          [Private session]

17    [redacted]

18    [redacted]

19    [redacted]

20    [redacted]

21    [redacted]

22    [redacted]

23    [redacted]

24    [redacted]

25    [redacted]

Page 10647













13  Pages 10647-10650 – redacted – private session













Page 10651

 1    [redacted]

 2    [redacted]

 3    [redacted]

 4    [redacted]

 5    [redacted]

 6    [redacted]

 7    [redacted]

 8    [redacted]

 9    [redacted]

10    [redacted]

11    [redacted]

12                          [Open session]

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, may we have the

14    blinds lowered so that the witness can enter.

15                               [The witness entered court]

16            THE REGISTRAR:  May I please just remind the Defence counsel,

17    switch off the microphone while the witness is answering your questions.

18    I mean later on when you've started.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness DD/10,

20    can you hear me?  I'm speaking to you, the Presiding Judge.  Can you hear

21    me?

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Now, you will read

24    the solemn declaration.

25            THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

Page 10652

 1           whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                          WITNESS:  WITNESS DD/10

 3                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

 5            The usher will show you a piece of paper which should have your

 6    name on it and you will answer only by yes or no.  Is that your name or

 7    isn't it?

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters are having problems with the

10    channels.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Witness, you will now

12    be answering questions asked by Mr. Deretic.

13            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  As we

14    have to take the particulars, could we go into private session, briefly.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.  We shall move

16    on into private session.

17                          [Private session]

18   [redacted]

19   [redacted]

20   [redacted]

21   [redacted]

22   [redacted]

23   [redacted]

24   [redacted]

25   [redacted]

Page 10653













13  Page 10653 – redacted – private session













Page 10654

 1    [redacted]

 2                          [Open session]

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  We are back in open

 4    session.

 5            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   Witness DD/10, do you know when did the attack on Prijedor take

 7    place?

 8       A.   Yes, on the 30th of May 1992.

 9       Q.   At that time did you work for the police?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And what was your job there?

12       A.   I was a [redacted].

13       Q.   And after following the attack on Prijedor, do you know if any

14    investigation and collection centres were formed in the Prijedor

15    municipality?

16       A.   Yes.  Two investigation centres were set up.

17       Q.   Just wait a moment until my question is interpreted into English.

18    Will you please be so kind as to answer my question?

19       A.   Yes.  Two investigation centres were set up at Omarska and

20    Keraterm, and the collection centre at Trnopolje.

21       Q.   Were you assigned to work in one of those?

22       A.   Yes.  I was assigned to the Omarska investigation centre.

23       Q.   When?

24       A.   I came to the investigation centre in Omarska on the 5th of June

25    1992.

Page 10655












12    Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13    and the English transcripts.













Page 10656

 1       Q.   Could you please repeat the date once again?  Could you please

 2    repeat the date?

 3       A.   On the 5th of June 1992.

 4       Q.   And what was your job there?

 5       A.   My job was to be a [redacted].

 6       Q.   And who assigned you there?

 7       A.   It was the camp commander, Simo Drljaca, who assigned me there.

 8       Q.   And until when did you stay at the Omarska Investigation Centre?

 9       A.   I stayed at the investigation centre at Omarska until the 25th of

10    July, 1992.

11       Q.   And why did you stop working there on that date?

12       A.   I left the Omarska Investigation Centre on my own, at my own will.

13       Q.   Witness DD/10, do you know Zoran Zigic?

14       A.   Yes, I do.

15       Q.   Did you used to see him at the Omarska Investigation Centre?

16       A.   Yes.  Only once.

17       Q.   Can you tell us, when was that?

18       A.   It is difficult to remember after nine years, but I can do it

19    because I came to work on the 5th, and that was the first working weekend,

20    Saturday and Sunday, so that I began to work officially on the 8th.  And I

21    brought [redacted]I didn't

22    know how to use, so it was about two days after --

23       Q.   Will you slow down, please.

24       A.   So it was some two days later that I saw Zoran Zigic.

25       Q.   Could you tell us, when was that, approximately?

Page 10657

 1       A.   Well, now, I can say almost to a day since my work began there on

 2    the 8th, that was my first working week, and it was a Monday, that is when

 3    I started working in total there, so it could have been the 10th of June.

 4       Q.   Which year?

 5       A.   1992.  I'm referring to 1992 all the time.

 6       Q.   And do you remember when you saw Zoran Zigic, was he -- did he

 7    have a bandage at the time?

 8       A.   Yes, yes, and it really struck the eye.  What I could see was a

 9    fresh bandage, a very white bandage on his left hand, if I remember

10    properly, and he had his arm flexed.  And that is what I paid most

11    attention to.

12       Q.   Do you remember what he was wearing at the time?

13       A.   Yes, yes, of course I do.  He had an army camouflage uniform and a

14    red beret on his head.

15       Q.   Witness, on that occasion, could you see if Zigic perhaps had

16    earrings?

17       A.   No, no.  And I really paid attention to Mr. Zigic.

18       Q.   Do you remember if at that time he wore black gloves with the

19    fingers cut off?

20       A.   Oh, come.  How could I see a white bandage if he had gloves?  It

21    doesn't sound very logical.

22       Q.   When you saw him, was it in daytime or was it at night?

23       A.   Well, I cannot really remember, but I'm sure it was in daytime

24    because my -- I worked from 8.00 in the morning until 5.00 in the

25    afternoon, so that it was daytime, no doubt.

Page 10658

 1       Q.   And that day, did you see him again that day?

 2       A.   No, and even then I saw him only by accident.

 3       Q.   Do you know if he was alone on that occasion or was somebody with

 4    him?

 5       A.   I have to tell you the whole story; namely, I just happened to see

 6    Zoran because I wanted to say hello to somebody else, and that person must

 7    have been with him.  It is a guy, young man, called Nikica Janjic.  And I

 8    wanted to say hello to him, so I approached the window, and it was only

 9    incidentally that I happened to see Zigic.

10            And there were also some other persons in military uniforms, one

11    or two, but they were all dispersed over the pista, so perhaps I didn't

12    record the exact number, but there were several men dispersed there, three

13    or four men, including Zigic.

14       Q.   Did you know why Zoran Zigic had come to the Omarska Investigation

15    Centre?

16       A.   No, I did not comment on that.  It was only the next day that I

17    heard other people who talked.  It was mostly the security people who

18    brought the information.  That is how I heard it.

19       Q.   Tell us, please, the room that you worked in, where was it?

20       A.   It was on the first floor, the first office to the right.

21       Q.   Do you know the term "pista" from the Omarska Investigation

22    Centre?

23       A.   Yes, yes, of course.

24       Q.   What was it, in fact?

25       A.   Well, it was a rather large area with concrete, covered in

Page 10659

 1    concrete.  It was a rather wide area around the administration building,

 2    and we called it "pista."

 3       Q.   The office that you worked in, did it have any windows?

 4       A.   Yes, it did.  It had windows overlooking the pista.

 5       Q.   Were they glazed?

 6       A.   Of course they were.  They were windows with glass panes through

 7    which you could see a large part of the pista and quite a bit of area

 8    beyond it.

 9       Q.   A moment ago I asked you if you knew why Zoran Zigic had come

10    there to the Omarska Investigation Centre.  I apologise, I interrupted

11    you.  Could you now answer it?

12       A.   Yes.  It was only the next day that I heard that [redacted],

13    one of the inhabitants of the investigation centre, had been beaten, and

14    that it had been done by Mr. Zoran Zigic.  And some others also beaten,

15    Beganovic, I don't know his first name, and allegedly it was Nikica Janjic

16    who had beaten him.  And [redacted] also got his share.  They were all

17    beaten up.  But I know very well that they said that it was Zoran Zigic

18    who had beaten [redacted].

19       Q.   Witness DD/10, have you heard of the name of Becir Medunjanin?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Do you know who was that or rather what was that?

22       A.   Well, in view of the jobs that I performed, of course I had to

23    know what was that man.

24       Q.   What did he do -- what was he before the war?

25       A.   Becir Medunjanin was a man who had been appointed the chief of the

Page 10660

 1    defence ministry department in the municipality of Prijedor.

 2       Q.   Do you know if that man was brought to the Omarska investigation

 3    centre?

 4       A.   Yes, I do know it because I saw it with my own eyes.

 5       Q.   Could you tell us when was he brought to the Omarska investigation

 6    centre?

 7       A.   I have to tell the whole story because the 11th of June is a very

 8    important date for me, and I can use it as a reference point then to

 9    describe the whole thing, that is, the 11th of June, it is a private

10    thing.  It is a birthday in the [redacted] family, and I wanted to have that

11    day off to be able to mark that birthday and to accord all my attention to

12    a little girl whose birthday it was, but they would not allow me to.  And

13    then the next day, which was the 12th of June, Becir Medunjanin was

14    brought in.

15       Q.   Were you present, were you at your workplace when Becir Medunjanin

16    was brought?

17       A.   We were all there.  I mean the staff who worked there, I mean.

18    That is, it was toward the end of our working hours, if I may call them

19    that, when we were about to go home.  And we were all set to leave and

20    somehow spontaneously we happened to be in the doorway, and we couldn't go

21    down the stairs because we were bringing Becir Medunjanin in the company

22    of members of his family.

23       Q.   And what were your working hours, what were your working -- when

24    did you -- what were your working hours in the Omarska investigation

25    centre?

Page 10661

 1       A.   Well, we started at around 8.00, 8.00 until about 5.00 in the

 2    afternoon, sometimes shorter, sometimes longer hours, but roughly it was

 3    around -- until about 5.00 in the afternoon.

 4       Q.   And that day which you mentioned, at what time was he brought in?

 5       A.   Well, that day when we stayed somewhat longer because I remember

 6    it was already dusk and we had our lights on already, because the

 7    passageway was rather dark.

 8       Q.   Was he brought alone?

 9       A.   No, he was brought in the company of his wife and son.

10       Q.   What state was Medunjanin in, I mean physical state when he was

11    brought in?

12       A.   Well, Becir Medunjanin was a man who had been beaten up.  One

13    could see that he had been beaten up.  He could barely climb up the

14    stairs.  One had to climb two or three stairs to reach the passage, the

15    hallway.

16       Q.   Do you remember if his head was injured?

17       A.   I remember a detail which had to do with his nose very well.  He

18    had a rag, a piece of cloth.  It wasn't bandaged.  One could barely

19    distinguish his face.  The eyes, I couldn't even see them properly he was

20    so badly beaten.

21       Q.   And after he was brought to the Omarska investigation centre, do

22    you know where he was put?

23       A.   Well, as I performed my duties --

24       Q.   Wait a moment until it is interpreted for the record.

25       A.   Well, I have to repeat it.  As I performed my duties, I rarely

Page 10662

 1    moved about or knew where people were put so that I -- in point of fact, I

 2    don't know where he was.

 3       Q.   Did you -- were you aware of the "white house," did you hear of

 4    the "white house"?

 5       A.   Yes, I did hear about it.

 6       Q.   Do you know if he was perhaps put there when he was brought there?

 7       A.   A few days later I heard that that was where he was.  A few days

 8    later.

 9       Q.   And after he was brought to the Omarska investigation centre, do

10    you know if he was ill-treated physically again?

11       A.   It was practically a daily occurrence.  Somehow he had a mishap to

12    get several blows when he arrived at that very moment.

13       Q.   Do you know why was he beaten?

14       A.   Well, Becir Medunjanin to my mind, from at least what I had to

15    [redacted] and what people said in those statements, in their notes, one could

16    guess that he was an important man of the Muslim people.  That is a man

17    who, to put it simply, created that armed attack, who threatened people

18    not to turn their weapons down.  And he was also closely associated with

19    Muhamed Cehajic, the key Muslim man in the municipality of Prijedor, and

20    another man very active in the SDA who was also closely linked to Sarajevo

21    and Prijedor, and that sort of thing.

22       Q.   And do you know what happened to Becir Medunjanin?

23       A.   All I can say is what I heard, but I must tell you in some

24    detail.  I worked in an office which was --

25       Q.   Will you please slow down because it has to go into the record.

Page 10663

 1       A.   The office that I worked in was a [redacted]

 2    [redacted]

 3    [redacted], that is, on a table there was a small radio

 4    station, so it was a sort of combination.  But what is to my mind very,

 5    very characteristic is that everybody passed through that office.

 6    Everybody had the right to enter it as they pleased, starting from the

 7    investigators who interrogated people down to policemen who would come

 8    from outside, that is, there was simply no order, no discipline, nothing.

 9       Q.   So do you know what happened to Becir Medunjanin?

10       A.   Well, now, on the basis of what I've just described, of course one

11    could hear all sorts of information and disinformation there, and some

12    three or four days later on, I can't remember exactly, but I think it must

13    have been some three or four days later because interrogations went on and

14    so I heard that Becir Medunjanin and a Hankin succumbed to all that

15    beating.

16       Q.   Do you know when was that?

17       A.   What do you mean?

18       Q.   You said three or four days later.  Can you tell us when did they

19    succumb?  I think you mentioned two persons.

20       A.   Yes, Hankin and Medunjanin.  I remember well that that is what was

21    said because that is what I heard.  It was sometime around the 16th or the

22    17th, I'm not quite sure, because the interrogations lasted for about

23    three or four days.  So it could have been the 17th that I heard about

24    it.

25       Q.   Do you know who killed Becir Medunjanin?

Page 10664

 1       A.   Well, all I can say is what I heard, because from the place that I

 2    worked, I could not see anything.  I could only listen to people who came

 3    with such information.  So I remember a comment or two from a man who

 4    worked for the security, whether they were two inspectors, I cannot really

 5    be specific.  And I heard from them the story, and they emphasised that

 6    the "white house," the "white house" was now lighter by two of its

 7    inhabitants.  And then in the story, they also mentioned a man who could

 8    have done that.

 9       Q.   And was a name mentioned?

10       A.   Of course.  In that conversation, that is what I tried to hear,

11    really, who could have done it, yes.  The name, the full name, the first

12    and the last name were mentioned.  One Duca Knezevic's name came up.  That

13    is what I heard.  I only heard that.

14       Q.   Witness DD/10, do you know what happened to Becir Medunjanin's

15    wife and son?

16       A.   No, I do not know.

17       Q.   Just one more question.  While you were there during that time

18    frame, did you hear from anyone -- did you hear anyone mention Zoran

19    Zigic's name in any way whatsoever, but in relation to the death of those

20    two men that you just told us?

21       A.   No.  I am absolutely positive about that.  Zoran Zigic was not

22    mentioned in -- at no context at all -- in any context at all.

23       Q.   Even though you've already testified so, but one of those days,

24    did you hear from anyone that he had seen Zoran Zigic in the Omarska

25    Investigation Centre in that compound?

Page 10665

 1       A.   No.  I did not, nor did -- nor is that name characteristic of

 2    Omarska.

 3       Q.   Thank you very much.

 4            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence for now

 5    has no further questions.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

 7    Mr. Deretic.  Witness DD/10, you are now going to answer questions put to

 8    you by the Prosecution -- no, just one moment.  Mr. Jovan Simic.  Go

 9    ahead, please.

10            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11                          Examined by Mr. J. Simic:

12       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness DD/10, who questioned the detainees in

13    the investigation centre of Omarska?

14       A.   The inspectors working there did that.

15       Q.   Were they from your service, these inspectors, or were they from

16    different services?

17       A.   Well, there were three lines, state line -- state security,

18    military security, and public security, so they came from those three

19    levels.

20       Q.   At the investigation centre of Omarska, were the chiefs of those

21    services present there too?

22       A.   Yes, they were.

23       Q.   Who were the chiefs?

24       A.   The state security, the chief was the reserve worker, Mirko Jesic;

25    from the public -- military security, his surname was Majstorovic, and the

Page 10666

 1    public security sector, it was Ranko Mijic.

 2       Q.   These chiefs, were they superior to the inspectors?

 3       A.   That is what it should have been in the hierarchical sense, they

 4    should have been their superiors.

 5       Q.   Can you tell us who was -- who those chiefs were responsible to?

 6       A.   The main person who was responsible for all of us was Mr. Simo

 7    Drljaca, the camp commander, and we were all subordinate to him.

 8       Q.   Witness DD/10, you worked as a [redacted].  That means that you [redacted]

 9    [redacted] made by the detainees that had been taken by

10    the inspectors previously; is that right?

11       A.   Yes, that's right.

12       Q.   Can you tell us whether [redacted] of detainees who were

13    classed into certain categories, category one, two, and three?

14       A.   I had my colleague [redacted], and we both did the work.  We shared the

15    work out between us, but yes, we [redacted]too.

16       Q.   Can you tell us who compiled those lists?  Where were they

17    compiled?

18       A.   The lists were made up with the investigators, together with their

19    chiefs.  They would compile the lists.

20       Q.   Witness DD/10, do you happen to remember or do you know that in

21    a -- at a certain time in the investigation centre, there was a group of

22    investigators from Banja Luka present, was there?  Do you happen to know

23    that?

24       A.   Yes, that's right, there was a group.  I called it a team.  The

25    Banja Luka team, that's how I referred to them, but that doesn't mean that

Page 10667

 1    they were actually from Banja Luka.  They used pseudonyms and they said

 2    what they -- what suited them best.

 3       Q.   Can you tell us what -- how they behaved and who was their

 4    superior?  Do you happen to know?

 5       A.   Well, they were sort of freelancers, if I can say that, put it

 6    that way.  They didn't have any boss or chief, although they were

 7    combined, and they were all combined into this inspectors' team.  But I

 8    must say with reference to those people, that they were the ones who most

 9    often physically abused the detainees that they interrogated.

10       Q.   Witness DD/10, did you [redacted] of people who were

11    transferred to Manjaca, and if so, where are those lists?

12       A.   Yes, [redacted], but that came at the end when the centre

13    was being disbanded, closed down.

14       Q.   Where did you [redacted] that out?

15       A. [redacted] when we went back to our workplaces, that is to

16    say, to the building of the [redacted].

17       Q.   Do you know who compiled the list, who ordered that a list of that

18    kind be compiled?

19       A.   Simo Drljaca did all this.  He was asked about everything, and he

20    decided everything.

21       Q.   May we clarify that for the record.  The building [redacted],

22    where is the building?  You mean in Prijedor, is that building in

23    Prijedor, or in the investigation centre?

24       A.   No.  I meant in Prijedor, and at the end when the investigation

25    centre was closed down, that's what I meant.

Page 10668

 1       Q.   Witness DD/10, do you know Dragoljub, Drago, Prcac?

 2       A.   Yes, I do know him.

 3       Q.   When the war broke out, was he an active police officer or was he

 4    a retired person?

 5       A.   Drago is a pensioner.  He was retired, but he was mobilised as a

 6    reserve policeman.  He was ordered to go to Omarska.

 7       Q.   Can you tell us when he arrived at the investigation centre?  When

 8    did he start working there?

 9       A.   He came fairly late in the day, after Miroslav Kvocka left.  It

10    could have been some 20 or more days before.  Sometime in July, but as

11    time flies, I would put it sometime in mid-July.

12       Q.   According to what you saw, was Drago Prcac anybody's superior?

13       A.   Oh, no.  Drago Prcac is a policeman just like all the others, and

14    I'd like to emphasise that he was a reserve policeman.

15       Q.   You worked together with him, did you not, in the same room?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Can you explain to us what he did?  What was his job?  What were

18    his duties?  What was his working day like?

19       A.   Well, I didn't see Drago Prcac every day, but when I did meet him,

20    I would look him -- see him by the communications system.  He would be

21    maintaining the communications, or one of the investigators or the chiefs

22    of the investigators would bring him a list of two or three men, with two

23    or three names on the list, and he was assigned to see whether those

24    people were actually there.  That would be one of his duties, for example,

25    to see whether the people on the list were actually there, or he would

Page 10669












12    Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13    and the English transcripts.













Page 10670

 1    have another duty to perform.

 2            Sometimes Zeljko Meakic would give orders to him or some of the

 3    chiefs of the inspectors, and then he would bring some people up for

 4    questioning.  He would be given a list with names on it.  He would go and

 5    look for those people and bring them in for questioning.  And sometimes he

 6    would read out the names of these people from the list together with the

 7    policemen that were guarding the centre, and they were -- or he would have

 8    a list of people who would be transferred to Trnopolje.

 9            So those were his duties.  That is the work he did, more or less.

10       Q.   Did Drago tell you how he happened to come to the investigation

11    centre, what the conditions and circumstances of his coming were?

12       A.   Yes.  I had the honour of listening to Drago Prcac, and he was a

13    very quiet man, withdrawn man, but he wanted to tell me a secret but said

14    that I mustn't use it, that it should remain just between the two of us,

15    confidential.  And he trusted me.

16            What he did was actually he complained.  He said it was very

17    difficult for him, that he had been sent to the centre, and he tried to

18    explain this to Simo Drljaca.  He said that he was a very sensitive man,

19    and that his health was poor, and that he didn't like being there, but

20    Simo Drljaca, as was his style, ordered him to go and to act as a

21    reinforcement in the centre because there were not enough people.  And he

22    threatened him.  He said he might be swallowed up by the dark or that he

23    would have his head unless he followed orders, and so Prcac obeyed orders

24    and came to Omarska.

25       Q.   Witness DD/10, how would you describe Drago Prcac as a man and his

Page 10671

 1    position in the investigation centre?

 2       A.   I've already said, Drago Prcac was a policeman, a police officer

 3    like any other, but by his nature, he's a very quiet and calm man.  He is

 4    less communicative than other people, perhaps.  He's a very withdrawn man,

 5    and that's what he was like.

 6       Q.   Thank you.  I have no more questions, Witness.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead please.

 8            MR. LUKIC:  The Defence of Mr. Kvocka would have to put a few

 9    [redacted].

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

11            MR. LUKIC:  I would like to put those questions in Serbian

12    language [redacted].

13                          Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

14       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

15       A.   Good morning.

16            MR. LUKIC: I don't know if I mentioned the name, so if necessary,

17    corrections would be made in the transcript.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

19            MR. LUKIC:  It hasn't been entered so it's okay.  Thanks.

20            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   Good morning, Witness DD/10.  My name is Branko Lukic and I

22    represent, together with my colleague Mr. Krstan Simic, the Defence of

23    Mr. Kvocka.  My questions will be related to Mr. Kvocka mostly.

24            Do you know Mr. Miroslav Kvocka?

25       A.   Yes, I do.

Page 10672

 1       Q.   How did you come to know Mr. Kvocka?

 2       A.   I've known Miroslav Kvocka from ages ago, far before these

 3    unfortunate investigation centres were set up.  I knew him as a policeman,

 4    as a police officer who had worked in the police force for quite a number

 5    of years.  I know him as my neighbour.  We live in the same neighbourhood,

 6    so I know him well.

 7       Q.   When you came to the Omarska investigation centre, did you meet

 8    Mr. Kvocka there?

 9       A.   Yes.  Upon my arrival, the first day I arrived on the 5th towards

10    evening, I met [redacted], and saw Miroslav.  I saw Zeljko Meakic.

11    Whether anybody else was there, I don't remember.  But I remember that

12    Miroslav Kvocka was there.

13       Q.   Do you know, during the time you spent in Omarska, what function

14    Miroslav Kvocka had in the investigation centre of Omarska?

15       A.   In my testimony I have mentioned policemen from the beginning, and

16    he was one of the policemen.  A police officer whose duty it was to

17    provide security for the premises and for the people there, and that was

18    what Miroslav Kvocka was.  He was from those ranks.

19       Q.   You mentioned the room you worked in.  Who went into that room,

20    which people?  Can you give us more details about that?

21       A.   I think that I have already said that the room -- that there was a

22    lot of coming and going into that room, and that I reacted to that.  I

23    didn't like so many people going in and out because anybody could go in

24    and out whenever they felt like it.  They would either be policemen from

25    the security, or the inspectors, and there were no set rules as to who

Page 10673

 1    could go in and out.  That was something I criticised.  I didn't like all

 2    those people coming in and out when I was doing my job.

 3            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Prcac is not

 4    feeling well.  May he leave the courtroom, please?

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead.  Go ahead.

 6                          [The accused Prcac withdrew]

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam registrar, have you asked

 8    to have a nurse attend to Mr. Prcac?

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  I just called the nurse so she

10    is on her way.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

12            Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

13            MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness DD/10, you said today that you came to

15    the Omarska investigation centre on the 5th of June 1992.  Can you tell

16    us, after your arrival, how long you worked with Miroslav Kvocka at the

17    investigation centre?

18       A.   Well, about two working weeks, perhaps less, perhaps more, but

19    thereabouts.  About two working weeks.  But let me stress that we worked

20    Saturdays and Sundays as well on occasion.

21       Q.   Can you describe to us the events -- what happened when your

22    children were brought from Banja Luka, when that happened?

23       A.   On the 15th of June 1992, it was a Monday, I asked Miroslav Kvocka

24    to help me, because Banja Luka is half way from Omarska, whether I could

25    bring my children from the Banja Luka area to Prijedor.  And Miroslav did

Page 10674

 1    that.  He helped me.

 2       Q.   Do you remember what date that was?

 3       A.   Well, yes, I just said that it was the 15th, because ten days

 4    after my arrival at the investigation centre in Omarska, my children were

 5    in the Banja Luka area, and I decided to bring them home.

 6       Q.   After bringing your children, did Miroslav Kvocka turn up to work

 7    in the next few days?

 8       A.   No, and I remember that.  He wasn't back three to four days after

 9    that, and you could notice that Miroslav Kvocka wasn't around.

10       Q.   Let us now go on to another area.  I'm going to ask you a question

11    about uniforms.  Do you know the difference between a military camouflage

12    uniform and a police camouflage uniform?

13       A.   Well, if -- what kind of an employee would I be working at the

14    police station if I didn't know the difference.  A military uniform is

15    basically green and has some of the patterns more prominent whereas the

16    police uniform is blue.

17       Q.   What kind of uniform did Miroslav Kvocka wear during the time he

18    was in Omarska, at the investigation centre of Omarska I mean?

19       A.   I remember it very well.  For a time he wore a military uniform,

20    or he wore a police uniform with a shirt and trousers because it was hot,

21    so combined.

22       Q.   The police uniform, was it the regular police uniform or a

23    camouflage police uniform?

24       A.   Well, it was the regular, standard police uniform, the pants, I

25    mean the trousers, whereas the top part, the shirt would be the army

Page 10675

 1    camouflage type of shirt.

 2       Q.   During your stay at the investigation centre, did you ever see

 3    Miroslav issue orders to anybody?

 4       A.   No, never.  Never heard him, never saw him do that.  They were all

 5    more policemen, the same sort of policemen of the same rank.  All the

 6    police officers there were the same.

 7       Q.   Miroslav Kvocka, during the time he spent at the Omarska

 8    investigation centre, did he ever bring in parcels of any kind, packages,

 9    and if so, how often?  Do you happen to remember?

10       A.   Well, it wasn't only Miroslav Kvocka who did that.  Everybody did

11    that.  Perhaps he did it a little more, more frequently.  He would bring

12    them in quite frequently, in fact.

13       Q.   After he left the investigation centre, did you, yourself, bring

14    in some parcels to his in-laws?

15       A.   Well, I tried to because he was away.  Yes, I did.

16       Q.   Who sent those packages, parcels?

17       A.   His wife, Jasminka, had three of her brothers there, his

18    brothers-in-law.  And she would organise this and send the parcels and I

19    would take them in.

20       Q.   One more question for you, Witness.  When you, yourself, brought

21    in the parcels, did Miroslav come to the investigation centre of Omarska

22    at all?

23       A.   I said that I brought in the packages because Miroslav no longer

24    came.  Miroslav had received an order to be elsewhere.  Perhaps he just

25    turned up once after he had been given orders to leave.  That might have

Page 10676

 1    been at the end of June on one occasion, I can't quite remember, but I do

 2    remember him coming in once.

 3       Q.   After Miroslav left Omarska, how much time went by until Mr. Prcac

 4    appeared?

 5       A.   I said about 20 days later, thereabouts, perhaps a little less, a

 6    little more.  But I think that Miroslav left towards the end of June.

 7    Whether it was the 23rd, or 24th, or 25th, I'm not sure, but it was

 8    sometime around that date.

 9            MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Witness DD/10, I have no more

10    questions for you.  [In English] Thank you, Your Honours.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

12    Would any of the other Defence counsel like to ask questions?

13            No, I see negative signs coming from the Defence.

14            Mr. Jovan Simic, as you know, Mr. Prcac isn't with us.  I'd like

15    to know what your position is with respect to his absence?

16            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we can continue the

17    proceedings and we'll see during the break how Mr. Prcac is feeling, but

18    we're prepared to continue without him.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you, Mr. Jovan

20    Simic.  I see that Mr. Saxon is getting ready to conduct the

21    cross-examination.

22            Witness DD/10, you'll now be answering questions put to you by the

23    Prosecutor, Mr. Saxon.

24            Mr. Saxon, your witness.

25            MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 10677

 1                          Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:

 2       Q.   Witness DD/10, just to clarify something that you said at the

 3    beginning of your testimony, you said that in 1992 you worked for the

 4    police --

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  Mr. Saxon, could you come closer to the

 6    microphone, please.

 7            MR. SAXON:  I apologise to the interpreters.  I will do my best to

 8    master all the technology that I have in front of me.

 9       Q.   You said that in 1992 you worked for the police as a [redacted] and

10    a [redacted].  Was it really the police that you were working for or was it

11    actually another agency within the public security station that you worked

12    for?

13       A.   I worked for the police force, that is to say, I, although I come

14    from the state security sector, I was ordered to go to the Omarska

15    investigation centre, and the only reason that I was sent there was that I

16    was an experienced [redacted].  And that [redacted]

17    [redacted], and we all worked together.  There are no divisions in our work.

18    As a [redacted], I was absolutely on -- [redacted]

19    [redacted].  We did the same work and had

20    the same [redacted] status.

21       Q.   And the difference in responsibilities between the state security

22    sector and the police sector, can you describe those, please?

23       A.   I have to emphasise that there are two sectors, two different

24    services.  They are quite separate, work separately, but they can do some

25    work together if the need arises.  They can do a job together if the need

Page 10678

 1    arises.

 2       Q.   You didn't quite answer my question.  Maybe I'll try to put it

 3    more simply.  What is the work or the obligation of the state security

 4    sector, or what was the work of that institution in 1992?

 5       A.   I have to apologise, but you are asking somebody of a lower level,

 6    a [redacted] which I am.  I am at a lower level.  I can only speak about my

 7    [redacted] job.  All the rest is up to the other people that do that kind of

 8    work.  I am a lowly employee.

 9       Q.   All right, I'll move on.  I'd like to ask your help in helping all

10    of us understand the work that you did on that first floor of the

11    administration building in the Omarska.

12            MR. SAXON:  If we could distribute, please, copies of Prosecution

13    Exhibit 3/223A and B.  If copies of these photos could be given.  These

14    were disclosed previously to the Defence.  If they could be given to the

15    Judges at this time, and if a copy could be placed on the ELMO, please, so

16    that the witness can see it and everyone else in the courtroom.  If a

17    copy, please -- Mr. Usher, if you could put 3/223A on the ELMO.

18       Q.   As you can see, Witness DD/10, this is a photograph of the first

19    floor corridor of the administration building at Omarska.

20            MR. SAXON:  Mr. Usher, I'm still going to need your help, so

21    please don't go too far.

22       Q.   This photo is fairly dark.  This was the original photograph taken

23    by the office of the Prosecution.

24            MR. SAXON:  Mr. Usher, could you please now put 3/223B.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, when were these

Page 10679

 1    photographs taken?

 2            MR. SAXON:  In January of this year, Your Honour.

 3       Q.   Witness DD/10, do these photos substantially depict the corridor

 4    of the first floor of the administration building as it was when you

 5    worked at the Omarska centre in 1992?

 6       A.   Yes, yes.

 7       Q.   Okay.

 8            MR. SAXON:  The second photo that is now on the ELMO has -- which

 9    is 3/223B, is the same photograph as 3/223A, but it has been computer

10    enhanced to improve the lighting and contrast.  I simply wanted to explain

11    that to the Trial Chamber.

12       Q.   You see, Witness DD/10, if you take a look at the photograph

13    that's on the machine to your right, there's a room at the end of the

14    hallway.  Do you know what that room was used for in 1992, if you recall?

15       A.   Well, those people who were the head of investigators, Mirko

16    Jezic, Duca Knezevic, Majstorovic.  I mentioned them already.  That is

17    where they sat.

18       Q.   All right.  Would you agree that you can work the length of that

19    corridor in about 30 steps, more or less?

20       A.   Thereabouts, give or take.  Depends on the step.

21       Q.   All right, that's fair.  Can you please -- you mentioned the room

22    where you worked during your direct testimony.  Can you please -- there is

23    a pointer next to you, next to your water glass.  Can you pick up that

24    pointer, Witness DD/10, and can you indicate, if you can see it, if you

25    can see it here, the room where you worked or the doorway to the room

Page 10680

 1    where you worked.

 2       A.   The -- no, the first comes the toilet room and then right after it

 3    is our room.

 4       Q.   All right.  I don't know if you have a pen in front of you; if

 5    not, I'd ask the usher to give you my pen.  If you could write the letters

 6    "DD/10" with an arrow pointing to that doorway, please, just to help us

 7    understand how that area was set up.

 8       A.   [Marks].

 9       Q.   And did you write "DD/10"?  I see an arrow; I don't see your

10    pseudonym.  Could you, please.

11       A.   [Marks].

12       Q.   Thank you.  Now, Witness DD/10, did you only work in that room, or

13    did you work in other rooms on that corridor?

14       A.   No.  I told you already that it was the [redacted], and that is

15    where [redacted] were, and we did not work anywhere else, including

16    that colleague of mine.  Only in that room.

17       Q.   Were you ever present in any other rooms when interrogations were

18    going on?

19       A.   No, not as a rule.

20            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.

22            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a certain

23    misgiving with regard to this photograph.  This photograph does not

24    show -- well, it was taken in January, but this interior has not changed,

25    but we cannot see which is the first room.  I was there, and I know that

Page 10681

 1    there were four rooms on the right-hand side, and two toilets, so two

 2    toilets.  And we cannot see here which is this room, the first or the

 3    second, but there is another exhibit which the Prosecutor already adduced,

 4    and that was a model of the ground plan.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Simic.  Could

 6    you -- you can ask, then, as an additional question.  I think it would be

 7    much better.  Just let the witness answer these questions, and then you

 8    can ask your supplementary questions, and you will then clarify all of

 9    this for us.

10            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I simply wanted to

11    help, to make it more precise.  I'm not trying to say anything to the

12    witness, I'm just --

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but as you know, there is

14    time when you can help it.  Do it when it is -- when it is your turn for

15    supplementary questions, you can clarify it.  If we keep making objections

16    and explanations with the witness there, of course the witness hears that

17    and listens to that, so we are even unwittingly helping or leading the

18    witness.  So you will have the opportunity, ask your supplementary

19    questions to understand this better.

20            I myself also have some questions with regard to this photograph

21    because I do not -- you're quite right, I don't know whether there are

22    five or six or how many, but if I start doing this now, I can influence

23    the witness.  So let the witness answer the questions which everybody

24    wants to ask, and after that, you can come back to this and ask your

25    additional questions, all right?

Page 10682












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13    and the English transcripts.













Page 10683

 1            Yes, Mr. Saxon.  But thank you, Mr. Simic.

 2            MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour, and I do --

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Mr. Saxon.

 4            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I do understand that Mr. Jovan Simic is

 5    acting in good faith; he wants the record to be clear.  It is simply our

 6    understanding that these kinds of questions can be addressed during

 7    redirect examination.  That is the purpose of redirect.

 8       Q.   The entrance to your -- excuse me, Witness DD/10, I had asked you

 9    before the interruption whether you were ever present in other rooms where

10    interrogations were going on.  Your response was, "Not as a rule."  What

11    does that mean?

12       A.   Well, practically never.  I only stayed in my room, in the room

13    where the [redacted] went on.  And as a witness, I must also give you my

14    opinion about this photograph.

15       Q.   Witness, Witness --

16       A.   All I know is --

17       Q.   I have to interrupt you.  I want to stick to the question that I

18    asked you, all right?  And then there will be time later on for you to

19    clear up any confusion that may exist regarding the photograph, all right?

20            Your answer to my question was, "Practically never.  I only stayed

21    in my room."  Is that your testimony?

22       A.   Yes.

23            MR. SAXON:  Can we have a copy of Prosecution's Exhibit 167

24    distributed, please?  We have them, I believe, here on the cart.  If one

25    could be placed on the ELMO and a B/C/S version provided to the witness.

Page 10684

 1    We have copies for the Judges as well.

 2            This is the record of the interview that the Prosecution performed

 3    with the accused Dragoljub Prcac.  It was admitted into evidence last

 4    October, Your Honours.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I believe we already have this

 6    document, Mr. Saxon.

 7            MR. SAXON:  We do.  I just want the Trial Chamber to be able to

 8    follow along because I'm going to ask the witness about this document.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.  It's

10    very thoughtful of you, but you are giving us too much paper.  We've

11    really got too much paper already.

12            MR. SAXON:  Mr. Usher, if you could provide -- does the witness

13    have the B/C/S version in front of her?  Mr. Usher, if you could place

14    page 139 of the English version on the ELMO.

15       Q.   Witness DD/10, if you could please turn to page 91 of the version

16    that's in your language in front of you.  Witness DD/10, you have a copy

17    in front of you.  Please turn to page 91.

18            MR. SAXON:  Can we go into private session, please.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Let us go into private

20    session.

21                          [Private session]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 10685













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Page 10686













13  Page 10686 – redacted – private session













Page 10687













13  Page 10687 – redacted – private session













Page 10688

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3                          [Open session]

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we are in open session.  Go

 5    ahead.

 6            Before you do that, I should like to ask a question.

 7            Mr. Deretic, the -- it was mentioned that the witness, in view of

 8    what she did -- if we disclose it, can it imperil her identity if we say

 9    what she did in the camp?  I am not saying the activity, I am not

10    pronouncing it, but do you understand what I'm saying?  Because whenever

11    the profession or the job that the witness did there, do we have to redact

12    it?

13            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Mr. President,

14    and I think so, yes.  Therefore, you are absolutely right.  I think that

15    that part of the text should be redacted.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  We shall proceed,

17    but perhaps one should find a way to find a code word, "What did you do

18    during what you did in the camp or in the performance of your tasks or

19    something?"  Something because -- but not be explicit because we cannot go

20    back into private session when we mentioned the tasks which the witness

21    performed.  So will you please bear this in mind so that we can work in a

22    normal way.

23            Thank you very much, Mr. Deretic.  You may sit down.

24            MR. SAXON:  Yes, I will honour that request, Your Honour.

25       Q.   You mentioned that Becir Medunjanin was brought to the Omarska

Page 10689

 1    camp around the 12th of June.  You said he could barely climb up the

 2    stairs, but he did walk up those stairs, didn't he?

 3       A.   Yes, that's right.

 4       Q.   First, there's about five stairs starting from the ground floor up

 5    to a landing where there's a window and then there's another five stairs

 6    coming up to the first floor corridor; isn't that right?

 7       A.   Yes, that's right.

 8       Q.   Now, you mentioned that it was -- the ill-treatment and beating of

 9    Becir Medunjanin was practically a daily occurrence.  How did you know

10    that?

11       A.   Well, I cannot speak about that in general, but the office next to

12    me where there were men whom I had mentioned, the inspectors who addressed

13    one another with their code names.  They had this practice and it was

14    enough for me to then say what they did.

15       Q.   What practice was that that you're referring to in the next room?

16       A.   Well, simply, people would be brought in for an interview, and

17    then one could hear cries of pain, so logically somebody is beating

18    somebody there.  I must say that that was not the kind of approach that I

19    was used to in the service that I had worked in, and it was all very

20    unusual to me.

21       Q.   So while you were working in that first room on the right, you

22    could hear the sounds of mistreatment coming from the room next to you; is

23    that a fair statement?

24       A.   It is, yes.  That's right.  There was such noise that I couldn't

25    focus [redacted].

Page 10690

 1       Q.   During the time that Miroslav Kvocka worked at the Omarska camp,

 2    would he ever be present in that room where you were working?

 3       A.   He would be there now and then in passing.  He was mostly outside,

 4    I mean outside the room.  But from time to time, he'd be there.

 5       Q.   Did Miroslav Kvocka say anything ever about sounds coming from the

 6    room next door to yours?

 7       A.   We did not comment that.  We commented it very seldom.  I suppose

 8    it is a rule I may have been the one who initiated such behaviour because

 9    in practice when I work, I can't really talk much, so that I brought that

10    kind of practice to that room too.

11       Q.   And, ma'am, if I understand you then correctly, your colleagues

12    who were working there, like Mr. Kvocka, essentially shared that same

13    practice of not talking about what was going on; is that right?

14       A.   That's right.

15       Q.   How about Dragoljub Prcac, was he ever in the room where you were

16    when there were beatings going on in the next room?

17       A.   It is possible during those ten days that I spent there working

18    together with Dragoljub Prcac.  That possibility cannot be excluded, that

19    he was there and listened.

20       Q.   You mentioned that Becir Medunjanin was an important man of the

21    Muslim people.  Would it be fair to say that he was one of the leaders of

22    the Muslims?

23       A.   Yes, that is right.

24       Q.   And you also mentioned that Becir Medunjanin was closely

25    associated with Muhamed Cehajic.  That person, correct me, please, he was

Page 10691

 1    either the mayor of Prijedor or the president of the executive committee;

 2    is that correct?

 3       A.   He was the mayor of the municipality of Prijedor.

 4       Q.   And Mr. Medunjanin was a close associate of Mr. Cehajic, right?

 5       A.   That is right, they were the front men in the town of Prijedor.

 6       Q.   Mr. Cehajic was a Muslim; is that right?

 7       A.   That is what -- how he declared himself.

 8       Q.   At that time in the Omarska camp in 1992, was it considered an

 9    appropriate reason to beat someone, the fact that they were a leader of

10    the Muslim ethnic group and that they were associated with a Muslim

11    political leader?  Was that considered an appropriate reason?

12       A.   Well, I have my answer.  We should have asked Mr. Simo Drljaca,

13    and I am really sorry that he is not sitting in my place.  He'd give you

14    the right answer.

15       Q.   Shall we take that answer as a yes or a no?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Very well.  You mentioned that Becir Medunjanin and someone named

18    Hankin succumbed to all that beating.  Do you know if a coroner was ever

19    called to perform an autopsy on Becir Medunjanin?

20       A.   Well, I don't know much about that, if a doctor can do that.

21    Well, there were physicians who dropped by.  I really can't say anything

22    about it.

23       Q.   Did a physician ever drop by, to your knowledge, to examine Becir

24    Medunjanin while he was being interrogated and mistreated over three or

25    four days down the hall from where you were sitting?

Page 10692

 1       A.   No, I did not see it in the passage.  But a doctor came one, two

 2    days, three days, and I suppose he came to extend medical aid to people

 3    who were detained there.  We had yet another physician from amongst the

 4    ranks of their ethnicity, and he helped too.  At least they said that he

 5    was a physician.

 6       Q.   Did you have access to a telephone where you were sitting in that

 7    office, or a radio?

 8       A.   No.  We did not have a telephone in the office that we worked in.

 9    It was a small radio station which the police used, and we were only at

10    our [redacted].

11       Q.   You said that after the death -- that when Becir Medunjanin and

12    Hankin died, someone said to you, "The `white house' was now lighter by

13    two of its inhabitants."  How often did people at the Omarska camp make

14    those kinds of comments?

15       A.   It was by sheer accident.  Normally the administration did their

16    job, but every now and then I'd register just information, if I paid

17    attention, if I heard what they were saying.  I cannot tell you how many

18    times, but that was a characteristic element, and that is why I noticed

19    it.

20       Q.   After you -- when you were discussing the death of Becir

21    Medunjanin during your direct testimony, you said that you never heard

22    Zoran Zigic's name mentioned in any context at all.  However, earlier in

23    your testimony you said that after the [redacted]

24    [redacted] and others, you said that the following day the security

25    people said that Zoran Zigic [redacted].  So in fact, on

Page 10693

 1    at least one occasion, Zoran Zigic's name did come up in the context of

 2    mistreatment of prisoners, isn't that true?

 3       A.   Yes, it is.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, would it be a

 5    convenient time to make a break?

 6            MR. SAXON:  I will leave that to the Trial Chamber, Your Honour.

 7    By my calculations I was going to go until about 1.15.  I don't know if

 8    the Trial Chamber wants to take a break now or work until then.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We shall take a break now, then.

10    There are reasons for which we are doing that.

11            Witness DD/10, we shall now take a break.  I shall ask the usher

12    to put down the blinds so that you can leave, but don't move for the time

13    being.

14            Fifty minutes.

15                          --- Recess taken at 1.02 p.m.

16                          --- On resuming at 1.55 p.m.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

18            Mr. Jovan Simic, could you bring us up to date with respect to

19    Mr. Prcac?

20            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Prcac has been

21    transferred to the detention unit.  His blood pressure is going up and

22    down.  Ms. Vera Petrovic, the physician, is attending him.  I think that

23    he is a little better, but that's all that I can tell you for the time

24    being.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] May we continue then?

Page 10694

 1            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  We hope

 3    that his health will improve and let us have the witness brought in now.

 4            Have you had a good lunch, Witness?

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.  Thank you.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Saxon, please

 7    proceed.

 8            MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9       Q.   Witness DD/10, I would like to go back briefly to the death of

10    Becir Medunjanin at the Omarska camp.  You mentioned that after he was

11    brought to Omarska, Becir Medunjanin was put inside the "white house."  My

12    question for you is:  Were you ever present in the "white house" during

13    the days that Becir Medunjanin was confined there?

14       A.   No, never.

15       Q.   So you really don't know who killed Becir Medunjanin, do you?

16       A.   I don't know.  I did hear about it, but I personally do not know.

17       Q.   Regarding Simo Drljaca, you mentioned that he was the commander of

18    the Omarska camp.  Did Simo Drljaca maintain his office in Omarska or

19    Prijedor?

20       A.   Unfortunately, he didn't have one in Omarska.

21       Q.   When Simo Drljaca was not at Omarska, was there anyone in charge

22    of the Omarska detention centre and all of the prisoners detained there?

23       A.   I don't know, but I say with full responsibility that it was Simo

24    Drljaca alone and nobody else.

25       Q.   You testified that in the middle of June 1992 for three to four

Page 10695

 1    days, Miroslav Kvocka did not come to work at the Omarska camp and that,

 2    "You could notice that Miroslav Kvocka wasn't around."  With all of the

 3    people working at the Omarska camp, what was so special about Miroslav

 4    Kvocka that you would notice when he was not present?

 5       A.   Well, it was normal for me to notice whether somebody was absent

 6    if I had got used to seeing those people around.  As for Miroslav Kvocka,

 7    he was an active-duty policeman whom I knew better for that reason, as I

 8    did some of the other active-duty policemen.

 9       Q.   As an active-duty policeman, to your knowledge, did Miroslav

10    Kvocka have any extra responsibilities at the Omarska camp?

11       A.   As far as I know, no.  Just a policeman.

12       Q.   You testified a bit about Dragoljub Prcac, and you testified that

13    sometimes Zeljko Meakic would give orders to Dragoljub Prcac to bring

14    prisoners for questioning, et cetera.  Tell me, why did Zeljko Meakic give

15    these orders to Mr. Prcac and not to another guard?

16       A.   Perhaps he was -- if he was close at hand, if Drago Prcac was

17    close at hand, he would give a -- give it to him, but any other policeman

18    could do the same.

19       Q.   How often was Dragoljub Prcac close at hand to Zeljko Meakic?

20       A.   I noticed that he was in our room very infrequently, but he would

21    come by.  How often, I couldn't say.

22       Q.   When you say "he," just so we're clear, are you referring to --

23    when you say that "he was in our room," are you referring to Mr. Prcac?

24       A.   Yes, yes.  It was in answer to your question whether he -- how

25    frequently he ordered Dragoljub Prcac to do this.  He would give orders to

Page 10696

 1    Dragoljub if Dragoljub was there.  But he could just as well have given

 2    the task to some other policeman if he was around at the time.

 3       Q.   When Dragoljub received those orders from Zeljko Meakic, when

 4    Mr. Prcac received such orders, to your knowledge did Mr. Prcac obey them

 5    and carry them out?

 6       A.   Yes.  As a rule he would carry them out.  He would get the order

 7    to organise the -- if people were coming in, a van bringing in three or

 8    four people, then Dragoljub -- it would be Dragoljub's task to take their

 9    particulars down, to write down their names on a list, an ordinary piece

10    of paper, [redacted], and Dragoljub would take

11    the list over to where the investigators were, or rather, the chiefs of

12    the investigators.

13       Q.   When you say, "If people were coming in, a van bringing in three

14    or four people," are you referring to new detainees, people -- new

15    prisoners being brought in to Omarska?

16       A.   Yes, yes.  In the two months or two and a half months which is how

17    long the investigation centre went on, but in the meantime new people

18    would be brought in.

19       Q.   You explained how Dragoljub Prcac told you that it was very

20    difficult for him to work at the Omarska camp because he was a very

21    sensitive man.  What was it about the Omarska camp that offended

22    Mr. Prcac's sensibilities?

23       A.   I think Dragoljub Prcac would agree with me, that was what I felt

24    and I think that was what he felt, that the conditions for work were very

25    bad in the room we were working in.  For example, there was a sort of

Page 10697












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Page 10698

 1    unpleasant smell which pervaded the premises, and for me, these were not

 2    the conditions that I was used to working in.  There was a lot of noise,

 3    lots of coming and going.  There were electricity cuts, and a generator

 4    would be switched on.  And to make the smell better, the chlorine would

 5    be -- the floors would be washed down with chlorine, so I think that's

 6    what that referred to.

 7       Q.   So just so that I understand you, what was difficult -- what made

 8    it difficult to work at the Omarska camp for you and for Mr. Prcac was the

 9    work conditions that you had to work in; is that correct?

10       A.   Yes, that's true.  And let me add this:  As a woman, I found it

11    very difficult to hear the physical abuse of people and their screams and

12    moans, and this was difficult for me to support.

13       Q.   You described how Simo Drljaca told Dragoljub Prcac that if

14    Mr. Prcac did not follow his orders and continue to work at the Omarska

15    camp, Mr. Prcac would be "swallowed by darkness" or he might lose his

16    head.

17            So I can assume, then, Mr. Prcac then followed his orders and

18    stayed at the Omarska camp until it closed sometime in August 1992; is

19    that correct?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Now, if Mr. Prcac arrived at the Omarska camp sometime in July of

22    1992, this would have been after Miroslav Kvocka had transferred from the

23    Omarska camp to the Tukovi police station department; is that right?

24       A.   Yes, that's right.

25       Q.   Tell me, was Miroslav Kvocka swallowed by darkness after he left

Page 10699

 1    the Omarska camp and went to work at Tukovi?

 2       A.   No, he was very lucky.  But that was the wish of Simo Drljaca.  It

 3    was Simo Drljaca's orders, and he respected that order and followed it.

 4            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I have to lodge an objection.  I heard

 5    Mr. Kvocka say something.  I don't speak his language, but I heard it loud

 6    and clear over here, so I'm sure the witness heard it.  I simply don't

 7    think I can conduct a fair cross-examination if the accused are stating

 8    things that obviously the witness can hear.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, I think that all of

10    us heard that.  I did too.  I don't know what Mr. Kvocka said, but I don't

11    think the witness was influenced by that.

12            But in any case, I would like to ask the accused not to make any

13    comments out loud even if you are speaking amongst yourselves, and I say

14    this to the Defence and the Prosecution as well.  We don't -- when we have

15    ear sets on our heads, we don't realise how loud we are speaking.  So

16    please pay attention to that.

17            Mr. Saxon, please proceed.

18            MR. SAXON:

19       Q.   Witness DD/10, you could have left the Omarska camp as well,

20    couldn't you?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   But you chose to stay; isn't that true?

23       A.   Yes.  Yes.  But I left at my own initiative nonetheless.  I left

24    Omarska camp myself.

25       Q.   But you chose to stay until the 25th of July 1992; is that

Page 10700

 1    correct?

 2       A.   Yes, that's correct.  When I became less afraid, I got up my

 3    courage to confront Simo Drljaca with all of this.

 4       Q.   And after you confronted Simo Drljaca, you left the camp; is that

 5    correct?

 6       A.   Correct.

 7       Q.   Did you lose your head?

 8       A.   Well, I was extremely lucky not to lose my head.  And I have a

 9    tale about that and justification, probably because I was a woman, and

10    probably because I was not one of his employees directly linked to the

11    state security centre.  Perhaps I was very lucky in that respect.

12       Q.   You did not lose your job either, did you?

13       A.   No, I did not, precisely because of what I just explained.  The

14    people where I worked backed me up.

15            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, may we go into private session for the

16    last few minutes of my cross-examination, please?

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let us move into private

18    session for a few moments.

19                          [Private session]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 10701













13  Page 10701 – redacted – private session













Page 10702













13  Page 10702 – redacted – private session













Page 10703

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24                          [Open session]

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, any re-examination?

Page 10704

 1    MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]  Yes, I do, Mr. President.  May I go

 2    ahead?

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.

 4                          Re-examined by Mr. Deretic:

 5       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness DD/10, you said while you were in your

 6    room that, among other things, you heard moans coming from the

 7    neighbouring rooms; is that true?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Were you able to hear the conversation going on in the adjoining

10    rooms, in the neighbouring rooms?

11       A.   No.  That I could not.

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16    the colleagues who worked there?

17       A.   No.  I just heard about it, but I wouldn't know it as a fact for

18    myself because I wasn't able to see anything or hear anything unless I

19    heard it from somebody, unless somebody told me.

20       Q.   Can you be more specific and tell us about the two people that the

21    "white house" was lightened, that term was used?  Did you hear who did

22    the act of lightening, who did that?

23       A.   According to the conversation the two policemen, the two

24    inspectors, I can't say for certain, but I heard a conversation, and I

25    remembered it.  It lodged in my mind.  I heard this conversation, and

Page 10705

 1    that's what I told you, and I can repeat that.  They said it was

 2    Medunjanin and Hankin, and perhaps the Hankin stayed in my mind more than

 3    the Medunjanin, but I say with full responsibility that the two names were

 4    mentioned in the same breath.

 5       Q.   Those two names -- that is to say, was the "white house" really

 6    lightened from those two names by the people that you mentioned here?

 7       A.   Well, I can't claim that.  I don't know the people who were

 8    talking, who were engaged in conversation.  I don't know who they were.

 9       Q.   I don't think you understood me, Witness.  Let me ask the question

10    again.  Those two people, were they directly linked to the name of Dusko

11    Knezevic?

12       A.   I heard the name and the surname during their conversation, but

13    who the person was, I don't know.  I don't know to what individual this

14    name was linked.

15       Q.   What impression did you get?  Who killed those two people after

16    that conversation?

17       A.   Well, it was my impression that Medunjanin and Dusko Knezevic, I

18    linked the two together.  Why, I don't know.

19       Q.   And I have just one more question for you.  Was it customary in

20    your room, in the room you worked in when the people who worked with you

21    came to give you your assignments, was it usual to talk about the more

22    important events that took place in the Omarska Investigation Centre?

23       A.   Well, there, yes, that would be standard practice, but the

24    information usually came from the security guards.  They had more time.

25    They would walk up and down and spend their time talking.  They would

Page 10706

 1    start talking about those things, and I was just there listening without

 2    comment.

 3       Q.   Thank you, Witness.

 4            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic.

 6            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I'd like

 7    to ask the usher to give us a document, Prosecution document 3/77B, and

 8    place it on the ELMO.

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone please, Mr. Simic.  Microphone,

10    please.

11                          Re-examined by Mr. J. Simic:

12       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness DD/10, this diagram represents the lineup

13    of the rooms on the first floor.  Can you tell us exactly what room you

14    worked in?

15       A.   I can see the diagram clearly on the screen.  If the toilet is B7

16    and B6, if those are the toilets, then I was in B5.

17       Q.   Thank you.  You worked together, at least that's what we learnt

18    from your testimony, for some ten days with Mr. Prcac; is that right?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   How many times did you see Mr. Prcac in the course of those ten

21    days in the Omarska Investigation Centre?

22       A.   Well, very rarely.  I can't venture an exact number, but let's say

23    five times during the day.  I would meet him -- actually, I saw him, that

24    he was there.

25       Q.   Thank you.  And my last question:  You answered a question from

Page 10707

 1    the Prosecution and you said that you and Mr. Prcac didn't like some of

 2    the things in the investigation centre.  Could you be more specific?

 3    Could you tell us what it was that you -- the two of you didn't like?

 4       A.   I think it was the conditions we worked in, that the stench, the

 5    unpleasant smell which pervaded the premises more and more every day.  And

 6    I think he would agree with me that it was this smell, it suffocated me.

 7    It was impossible to be there with that smell.  It was a terrible smell.

 8       Q.   Let me ask you this, do you consider that Mr. Prcac agreed with

 9    the beatings of the prisoners?

10       A.   Oh, no, absolutely not.  No question of that.

11       Q.   You think it bothered him?

12       A.   Well, of course.  A man like him, an honest man and a quiet man

13    like him, of course it bothered him.

14            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I have

15    no further questions.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, any additional

17    questions?

18            MR. LUKIC:  I don't have any further questions.  Thank you.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

20                          Questioned by the Court:

21            JUDGE RIAD:  Witness DD/10, good afternoon.  Can you hear me?

22       A.   Good afternoon.  Yes, I can hear you.

23            JUDGE RIAD:  I'd just like to clarify certain points, one of two.

24    You mentioned in your answer to Defence lawyer Mr. Lukic, you said that

25    Mr. Kvocka's occupation was to secure the investigation centre and the

Page 10708

 1    persons in it.

 2            Now, was this something different from what all the others did or

 3    was it the job of everybody in the camp?

 4       A.   All the policemen there and outside the building, around the

 5    building, was duty-bound to secure the premises and the people on them,

 6    not only Kvocka, but all the other policemen.  All the police force.

 7    That's why they were sent there.

 8            JUDGE RIAD:  Yes, I mean on equal footing or was there some kind

 9    of what you call hierarchy, some people were more responsible than others?

10       A.   No, there was no hierarchy.  All of them were equally responsible.

11            JUDGE RIAD:  And then you said that he helped you, he offered you

12    help when your children came and so on.  What kind of help did he give

13    you?  Did you give you, for instance, a holiday?  What did he do?

14       A.   No.  No.  No, he didn't give me a holiday.  But we could go by car

15    to Banja Luka so that was the service he did me.

16            JUDGE RIAD: [redacted]

17    [redacted]

18    thing or did it happen to other people too?  Was it the only thing you

19    knew about?

20       A.   Well, every beating as a rule, and we're talking about Zoran

21    Zigic.  They were private settlings of account between the two of them.

22            JUDGE RIAD:  I see.  And did he have any other private settling of

23    accounts too?

24       A.   I don't know that.  But judging by the nature of the man, he was

25    prone to that kind of thing.

Page 10709

 1            JUDGE RIAD:  You mean violence?  And was he important enough not

 2    to be stopped by any other person?  Nobody could stop him.

 3       A.   Well, he had that kind of behaviour, and he went into these things

 4    personally as far as I know.  And looking at Zoran Zigic's life in

 5    general, that's what he was prone to do.  He was prone to act like that.

 6    He liked these excessive situations, and he was that type of personality

 7    regardless of the specific events.  He could be very dangerous at times.

 8            JUDGE RIAD:  But you mentioned that when you think about

 9    Mr. Kvocka, you think he was responsible of the security of the people in

10    the centre.  I mean beating would completely violate this security.

11       A.   Yes.  Yes.  I agree with you.  Yes, he would.

12            JUDGE RIAD:  What kind of security then was there?

13       A.   You would have to ask Simo Drljaca that because nobody could come

14    to the camp.  Nobody had access to the camp unless he had a permit signed

15    with the name and surname of Drljaca, and that would be what you would

16    have to have.  That was much more important than us there, his famous

17    signature and his famous permits, and we had no influence there.  We were

18    quite impotent.  The essential thing was that you had to have a permit

19    signed by Simo Drljaca, and we couldn't do anything there and nor could

20    that Kvocka person.

21            JUDGE RIAD:  Thank you very much.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Fouad Riad.

23    Judge Wald.

24            JUDGE WALD:  Witness, you told that Mr. Drljaca was the commander

25    of the camp and he -- I think you said that he was the only one who had

Page 10710

 1    the supreme power in the camp.  At another point you told us that

 2    Mr. Meakic gave orders to Prcac to go get certain people to bring them

 3    back.  What did you understand Mr. Meakic's role to be in the camp?  What

 4    did you think he was?  What kind of authority did Meakic have?

 5       A.   Well, I can't take it upon myself to give the hierarchy in the

 6    police, but looking at it from my point of view, Simo Drljaca was the main

 7    person.  Meakic would have to ask Simo Drljaca's permission.  Nothing

 8    happened there without his permission, so I tie the two together.

 9            If Simo Drljaca permitted, Zeljko Meakic would behave following

10    that, and that's the truth.

11            JUDGE WALD:  So if I understand you, Meakic could give orders,

12    although he might have to get the orders from Drljaca.  Now, was there

13    anyone else in the camp that could give orders assuming, again, it somehow

14    came down from Drljaca?  But could anyone else give orders to anyone else

15    besides Meakic giving orders to Prcac and maybe other people too?

16       A.   I don't think so, no.  Even if somebody wanted to order somebody

17    something, only if they had permission from Drljaca and even to me, to a

18    [redacted], I had nobody's orders unless I was ordered by Simo Drljaca.

19    Nobody would even attempt to give me any orders.  I was quite free on that

20    score.

21            JUDGE WALD:  Assuming again that somehow all power and authority

22    came down from Simo Drljaca still, during the time you were there, you did

23    see Meakic give orders to Prcac.  Whether they came down from Drljaca or

24    not, my question is:  Did you ever see anybody else in the camp give

25    orders to people whether or not they got the authority from Drljaca

Page 10711












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Page 10712

 1    eventually?  So you're saying the only person you ever saw give orders to

 2    anybody was Meakic?

 3       A.   Yes.  But if I said that Dragoljub Prcac was given an order, for

 4    example, to check out where the people were, then he could get the order

 5    from the inspectors or the chiefs in charge of the inspectors.  So that

 6    was a type of order too coming down from the inspectors and their chiefs.

 7            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  Now, did you ever see Mr. Kvocka or Mr. Prcac

 8    do guard duty, post duty?  Did they ever perform guard duty at a post?

 9    There were guards there that were stationed at different posts, right?

10    We've heard lots of testimony to that effect.  I mean there were people at

11    the entrance or at various places like that.  Did you ever see Mr. Kvocka

12    or Mr. Prcac have those kind of guard post duties?  No, okay.  Thank you.

13       A.   Well, a policeman can't be a guard, but let's take it that that

14    was a rule of some kind.  I have no example, not a single example of

15    seeing them standing still at one particular spot, either Prcac or

16    Kvocka.  They were mobile.  They moved around the premises.

17            JUDGE WALD:  Okay, thank you.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Wald.

19            Witness DD/10, I also have a few questions for you.  You said that

20    Mr. Prcac was a policeman like all the others.  Did he wear a uniform?

21       A.   Yes.  I said that Mr. Prcac when he came to the camp, if we call

22    it a camp, was a reserve policeman.  What does that mean?  It means that a

23    man had been retired but then he was reactivated and ordered to come, but

24    he doesn't wear a uniform.  He is not -- he doesn't have a uniform.  He is

25    half civilian, half police, because he has, for instance, the trousers but

Page 10713

 1    just a plain civilian shirt.  And I believe he had a pistol behind his

 2    belt.  Did he?  Yes, he did, he did.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And, for instance, you

 4    distinguish between Mr. Kvocka who is an active-duty policeman and so on

 5    and so forth.  How did Mr. Kvocka dress in comparison with Mr. Prcac?

 6            I'm not getting the interpretation.  Can you hear it now?  Are you

 7    getting it?  Can you hear me now?

 8       A.   I only heard the end, the last bit, so could you please repeat it.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But now you can hear it

10    normally?  Right, yes.  Thank you.

11            So, Witness, you drew a line of distinction between Mr. Kvocka who

12    was a professional policeman and Mr. Prcac who was a retired policeman.

13    Now, in terms of the uniform, was there any difference between the two of

14    them?

15       A.   No, there was no difference.  When a reserve policeman is hired,

16    he is just as responsible as the active one.  There is no difference.

17    They simply carry out the duties that they were made responsible for,

18    except that they are reserve policemen, because they do not come regularly

19    to work, and Kvocka has to come to work regularly.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But with regard to the uniform.

21       A.   Well, what can you imagine Kvocka to turn up in civilian clothes

22    while being an active policeman?  Excuse me, can that be?

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I can imagine, but I should be

24    able to imagine it when it comes to Mr. Prcac, is that what you're trying

25    to say?

Page 10714

 1       A.   Yes, of course.  What would that look like?

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, right, all right.  Perhaps

 3    my imagination is not all that rich.  I will agree with you.

 4            But DD/10, will you please tell me, you spoke about the presence

 5    of Mr. Kvocka in your office at the time one could hear screams, moans, et

 6    cetera -- no, that is another question, excuse me.

 7            Mr. Kvocka was in your office.  I'm asking you:  Was Mr. Kvocka in

 8    your office at the time when one would hear those screams and moans from

 9    behind the wall?

10       A.   Well, I cannot be quite sure about that.  What I can say is that I

11    heard it.  Whether Kvocka heard it, I cannot really speak on his behalf,

12    but I heard them.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You also said with regard to the

14    lightening of the -- in burden of the "white house" by two men, and you

15    said that there were two policemen that you heard it from.  Could you tell

16    us who those policemen were?  Perhaps you don't remember the names, but I

17    should like to know something else, nevertheless.  Who were those

18    policemen?

19       A.   Well, those were men, I keep saying, those are policemen who

20    provided security for the whole facility.  I cannot really describe them

21    in any close detail, but they were people who were on the outside, who

22    secured the building, and who would come by information or disinformation,

23    and who would then take advantage of something like that.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right.  So this information from

25    your point of view could have also been disinformation; is that it?

Page 10715

 1       A.   Yes.  Well, at that time I took it to be information because they

 2    were to be eyewitnesses, because they were discussing it between them, and

 3    I could not be there because I was in that room.  But there were people

 4    who walked around, who could exchange the views and talk and exchange

 5    their opinions, and those are the kind of stories that came out.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Tell me, those policemen, how

 7    often did they come there?

 8       A.   I already said in my testimony that it was very often, which

 9    bothered me as a [redacted] who was entitled to the best possible working

10    conditions, but nobody, none of us, received any protection in that

11    regard.  Anybody -- people came and went as they pleased.  Nobody

12   accounted to anyone, and we, the [redacted], being the [redacted] could not

13    establish any order, and Simo Drljaca was the only person who perhaps

14    could help us in that regard.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Tell me one thing:  Did you

16    understand why did everybody frequent that office?  Were they looking for

17    something?  Did they come because they were looking for something?  What

18    was your impression?  Why did all those people come to that office?

19       A.   Well, they were often there because they were bored.  They would

20    have a walk, perhaps you will laugh, but there were two ladies -- or

21    perhaps somebody would have a look, say something, so that would be it.

22    Other times they needed to use the communications equipment, so that was

23    that.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right.  But those policemen who

25    gave you this information, they were there almost daily.  You saw them

Page 10716

 1    often, didn't you?

 2       A.   Well, I cannot say if they were there day in and day out, those

 3    men who talked, but they had to be there.  Whether it was one shift today

 4    or perhaps if it was another day, I don't know, but they were there all

 5    the time.  I cannot say that they were there day in and day out, but that

 6    day I heard that comment.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Tell me something else:  How did

 8    -- how did it happen?  They would come to see you and your colleagues,

 9    they would say something to you, they would move over to the equipment and

10    listen to something.  What was it like?

11       A.   I remember very well.  I would be [redacted],

12    [redacted], and they would be talking amongst themselves.  But perhaps

13    this is my professional deportment.  Also, I tried to hear what they are

14    talking and I'm [redacted],.  Now, how fast I'm [redacted], that is, of

15    course, my problem, but I'm listening to what they are saying and I'm not

16    commenting.  And they're doing it between themselves and I'm merely taking

17    note of that.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You also told us that one needed

19    a pass to enter the camp and it had to be signed by Simo Drljaca.  And

20    what about Zeljko Meakic, could he also issue such a permit authorising

21    people to enter the camp?

22       A.   No, nobody could enter with Zeljko Meakic's permit because --

23    because he didn't have the authority in terms of seniority, no.  That was

24    a completely different man with completely different duties.  And the camp

25    commander who is above all, above all of us, above Zeljko Meakic and

Page 10717

 1    [redacted] and above everybody else.  He is God.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Tell me, who could issue orders

 3    to you?  Who did you --

 4       A.   Nobody could directly.  I'm a [redacted].  I know what my duties are.

 5    I was told to work there.  There was no need for anybody to give me any

 6    orders.  I'm an experienced woman, and I know very well what is my duty

 7    and how much I have to do, what I have to do, so nobody issued any direct

 8    orders to me.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay, very well.  Now, just to

10    finish, you are somebody who spent many years in the police, you told us,

11    and so on and so forth.  How can you imagine that this centre functioned

12    without somebody issuing orders, without an organisation, without a chain

13    of command?  What did you observe there?  What do you think?  How could

14    that be done?

15       A.   Yes.  Yes, thank you.  You've enabled me now to give you a

16    complete answer to that question, because in my testimony here, of all

17    that I told you, I'd merely like to point out that I left the

18    investigation centre or the camp at my own initiative.  Precisely because

19    I objected against such organisation of work.  I was simply not used to

20    that.

21            Everybody police should have the hierarchy, the chain of command.

22    It was so novel to me that one man had all the -- pulled all the strings

23    so that -- so that when I saw that, I went and faced up to Simo Drljaca

24    directly.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, DD/10, we do not have

Page 10718

 1    any further questions for you.  Your testimony is over.  Thank you very

 2    much for coming.  Don't leave your seat yet because the blinds have to be

 3    pulled down and the usher will then help you leave the courtroom.  Thank

 4    you.

 5                          [The witness withdrew]

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am sorry, but I did not tell

 7    the parties that we shall be adjourning, adjourning at quarter to 3.00,

 8    but I saw that Mr. Deretic wanted something, but whatever it is we can do

 9    it on Monday because I promised an adjournment at quarter to 3.00.

10            Yes, Mr. Deretic.

11            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I merely wanted to

12    draw your attention that the witness by inadvertence mentioned her name

13    and it is in record page 98, line 7.  That is all.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, madam registrar, I believe

15    have a slight problem to resolve.  Yes.  Very well.  Do you see it?  Page

16    98, line 7.  It has to be deleted.  It's already been done?  Right.  There

17    is somebody who takes care of these things.

18            Yes, Mr. Saxon, I think we shall address this document next Monday

19    because I really need -- and we're already five minutes late as against

20    what was said before.  So next Monday we shall be back here and then we

21    shall address the matter of that document.  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

22            MR. SAXON:  I heard my name mentioned.  I was merely rising with

23    the Trial Chamber.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I saw you stand up so I was

25    merely addressing to you.  I was still sitting so this is it, hence the

Page 10719












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Page 10720

 1    confusion.  You were on your feet and I was sitting.  Nice weekend to

 2    everybody.

 3                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

 4                          at 2.52 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday

 5                          the 23 day of April, 2001, at

 6                          9.20 a.m.