Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11170

 1                          Monday, 7 May 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          --- Upon commencing at 9.26 a.m.

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Please be

 6    seated.

 7            Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical

 8    booth and the interpreters, the registry staff; good morning to the

 9    Defence counsel and Prosecution.  We're going to take up our case today

10    where we left off, and if I remember correctly, what we have to do now is

11    the cross-examination of the accused Mr. Radic.  But before we go ahead,

12    the Chamber promised a ruling with respect to the admission of two

13    documents.  They were Prosecution Exhibit 3/249 and Defence Exhibit

14    relating to Mr. Zigic, D20/4.  I'm sure you recall those two documents.

15            The decision of the Chamber is as follows:  In the course of the

16    presentation of evidence, Defence evidence, with respect to the accused

17    Mr. Zoran Zigic, it was requested of the Chamber to state its views on the

18    admission of the following exhibits:  Prosecution Exhibit 3/249, a report

19    dated the 4th of July, 1992, signed by Dusko Sikirica; and Defence Exhibit

20    D20/4, a certificate certifying the provisional arrest of Zoran Zigic,

21    from the 1st to the 9th of July.

22            With respect to Prosecution Exhibit 3/249, the Defence raised an

23    objection with respect to the admittance of this exhibit into evidence,

24    and the reason was that this constituted, they said, a supplementary

25    allegation introducing new facts which enlarge the scope of the

Page 11171

 1    indictment, and that as it was a montage, this document needs to be

 2    authenticated and by applying Article 99(E) of the Rules of Procedure and

 3    Evidence.

 4            On the 23rd of April, 2001, the Prosecution presented the original

 5    document to the Chamber and a declaration by an individual who was in

 6    charge of obtaining it.  The Chamber of the first instance remarked that

 7    with respect to this exhibit, no precise date was indicated with respect

 8    to the presumed visit of the accused to Keraterm, and convinced of the

 9    authenticity and relevance of the document.  Therefore, the Trial Chamber

10    decides to admit Exhibit 3/249 into evidence.

11            With respect to Defence Exhibit 20/4, the Defence submitted this

12    exhibit and argued that it was in direct relationship to 3/249, exhibit of

13    the Prosecution, that they were directly linked.  The Prosecution

14    considers that document D20/4 is a new defence by alibi and that thereby

15    it should have been disclosed before the beginning of the proceedings.

16    Applying Article 67(A)(ii) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, the

17    Prosecution asserts that although no precise allegations were formulated

18    with respect to Zoran Zigic for the period envisaged by D20/4, the

19    indictment nevertheless covers this period.  The Chamber observes that the

20    indictment itself and the amended version and more detailed version of the

21    charges of the indictment and the persons concerned, Schedule of

22    Particulars, does not contain any specific allegation against the accused

23    for the period covered by this document with respect to the 1st of July

24    1992 to the 9th of July, 1992.  It considers that Exhibit D20/4 does not

25    constitute a means of defence against any of the allegations specifically

Page 11172

 1    formulated against the accused and that it cannot therefore be taken to

 2    constitute a defence by alibi.

 3            The Chamber therefore decides to admit Exhibit 20/4 into

 4    evidence.  The Chamber will decide what weight it is going to attach to

 5    Exhibit D20/4 in due course, and with respect to Prosecution Exhibit

 6    3/249.

 7            That is the ruling of the Chamber with respect to the two

 8    documents that we were pondering.  Having made that ruling and imparted it

 9    to you, I think that we can go ahead with the cross-examination of the

10    accused Mr. Radic.  Would the usher please do his duty.

11                          [The accused Radic takes the stand]

12            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I don't know if there are any of the

13    accused who intend to ask Mr. Radic any -- any of the other accused who

14    intend to question Mr. Radic?

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Radic, can you hear me?

16            THE ACCUSED RADIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As I told you once before, we're

18    going to continue your testimony and take it that you are continuing under

19    oath having taken the solemn declaration, so you will speak the truth, the

20    whole truth and nothing but the truth.  Please be seated.

21                          [The accused Radic sits down]

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The question that the

23    Prosecution is asking; that is to say, I think we completed the

24    examination-in-chief of Mr. Radic and this now is the cross-examination by

25    the Prosecution.  Later on we'll see which of the Defence counsel would

Page 11173

 1    like to ask additional questions, re-examination by the Defence counsel.

 2            I didn't quite understand the purpose of your question,

 3    Mr. Saxon.

 4            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, it was my understanding, and I may be

 5    wrong, but based on the Trial Chamber's order of late last year or early

 6    this year, after direct testimony, we would have cross-examination by the

 7    other co-accused followed then lastly by cross-examination by the

 8    Prosecution.  So if that was the order of the Trial Chamber, then I'd

 9    simply think we need to find out now whether any of the other co-accused

10    wish to cross-examine Mr. Radic.  Thank you.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would any of the other Defence

12    counsel like to ask Mr. Radic a question?  I see negative signs coming

13    from the Defence counsel.  Very well.  Thank you.

14            Mr. Saxon, thank you for bringing that to my attention.  Please

15    proceed.

16            MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17                          WITNESS:  MLADJO RADIC [Resumed]

18                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

19                          Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:

20       Q.   Mr. Radic, you worked as a policeman from 1972 to 1996; is that

21    correct?

22       A.   Yes, that's right.

23       Q.   So then in 1992 when the war began in Bosnia and Herzegovina, you

24    had about 20 years of experience as a professional police officer; is that

25    right?

Page 11174

 1       A.   That's right.

 2       Q.   You began working at the Omarska camp around the 27th, 28th, 29th

 3    of May, that was from your direct testimony; is that correct?

 4       A.   I said that that is right, but I'm not quite sure of the date.

 5    Possibly it was later because I know that when I came, Zeljko said the

 6    inspectors were already working there and they started working somewhat

 7    later, so thereabouts.

 8       Q.   So you're not sure whether it was the 27th, 28th, or 29th now?

 9       A.   I'm not sure, but it is around that time, yes.

10       Q.   When you began working as a police officer in 1972, that was as an

11    active-duty police officer; is that right?

12       A.   Yes, from 1972 right through to 1992.

13       Q.   Going back to 1992 when you began to work in the Omarska camp,

14    between the time you began to work at Omarska, whether it was at the end

15    of May or on some other date, and when you stopped working there in August

16    of 1992, did you ever miss a shift when you were scheduled to work -- to

17    be on duty at the Omarska camp?

18       A.   I don't think I did, not a single one.  But I don't think I worked

19    on the 25th, 26th when it was my son's birthday, but I'm not quite sure of

20    that either.  I think I worked all the shifts otherwise.

21       Q.   And 25th, 26th, what month are we talking about?

22       A.   The 25th of June.

23       Q.   Mr. Radic, do you recall that in March of 1999, you provided an

24    interview to members of the Office of the Prosecutor?

25       A.   Yes, when I was arrested here.  If that's what you mean.

Page 11175

 1       Q.   That interview actually occurred in March of 1999 about almost a

 2    year after your arrest; isn't that right?

 3       A.   Yes, in the detention unit.

 4       Q.   I'd like to show you a transcript made from the recording of that

 5    interview.

 6            MR. SAXON:  If I could ask that the usher please distribute

 7    Exhibit 3/215A and B which are the English and B/C/S versions of the

 8    transcript of the interview provided by Mr. Radic to members of the Office

 9    of the Prosecution.  And we also have I believe an Exhibit 3/215C from

10    Mr. Mahzar Inayat who was the investigator who conducted that interview.

11    Copies of the video of this interview have already been provided to

12    Mr. Radic's counsel.

13            Mr. Usher, I'd like to ask you, please, if you could put a copy of

14    the English version on the ELMO and then provide Mr. Radic with a copy of

15    the B/C/S version, please.

16       Q.   Mr. Radic, if you need glasses for reading, please go ahead.  I'd

17    like to ask you to please go ahead and look at page 1 of the B/C/S version

18    of the transcript.  I'll wait.  I realise we don't have enough distributed

19    yet.

20            Is there a problem?  We need some more copies.  I want to make

21    sure that Mr. Radic's version has a copy in the B/C/S version, please.  We

22    have another copy here as well.

23            Mr. Radic, if you look on page 1 of the B/C/S version of the

24    transcript, and that is also page 1 of the transcript for those following

25    along in English, you see that the OTP investigator who conducted the

Page 11176

 1    interview, Mr. Inayat, explained a series of rights to you.  It's right in

 2    front of you, Mr. Radic, in hard copy.

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Can you see on page 1 where it is explained to you that the

 5    interview will be video recorded and that you agreed to that, about the

 6    middle of page 1?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Can you see on page 1 where it is explained to you that you had

 9    the right to be assisted by your counsel, Mr. Fila?  Do you see that?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   During this interview, was your attorney, Mr. Fila, present?

12       A.   Yes, he was.

13       Q.   At the bottom of your page 1, Mr. Inayat explained to you that you

14    have the right to be assisted by an interpreter, and for that purpose, an

15    interpreter has been assigned by the Tribunal.  Do you see that?

16       A.   I do.

17       Q.   If you turn now, please, to page 2.  At the top of the page,

18    you'll see your response, "I agree."  Do you see that?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Further down on page 2 Mr. Inayat asks you, "Now, do you fully

21    understand what the interpreter is saying to you?"  And your response is,

22     "I understand."  Do you see that?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Mr. Inayat asked you if you were satisfied to continue the

25    interview with the interpreter that was assigned by the Tribunal and you

Page 11177

 1    said, "I agree."  Do you see that?

 2       A.   I see that.

 3       Q.   Mr. Inayat asked you if you were satisfied to continue the

 4    interview with the interpreter -- excuse me.  Mr. Inayat -- I apologise.

 5    I'm being redundant.  Mr. Inayat explained to you that you have the right

 6    to remain silent and that the interview would be video recorded and that

 7    anything that you say might be used in evidence in subsequent proceedings

 8    of this Tribunal.  Your response was, "No problem."  Is that correct?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Mr. Inayat then asked you whether you clearly understood all that

11    he had explained to you, and you said, "I understand."  Is that right?

12       A.   That's right.

13       Q.   Mr. Inayat then explained, still on page 2, that a copy of the

14    video recording would be provided to you at the end of the interview,

15    followed by a transcript, and that at the close of the interview, you

16    would have the opportunity to clarify any comments made in the interview.

17    You replied, "Fine."  Do you see that?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And did you tell the truth during your interview with Mr. Inayat

20    in March 1999?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   If you could turn, please, to page 112 of your version, the B/C/S

23    version, which will be page 111 for those who are following along in

24    English.  Are you on page 112?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 11178

 1       Q.   You'll see on that page Mr. Inayat starts off a question with,

 2     "Now, in your shift, when guards were performing duties ..."  Do you see

 3    that, around the middle of the page?  It's towards the top of the page of

 4    112, when you were asked, Now, in your shift, when guards were performing

 5    duties ..."  Do you see that now?

 6       A.   Yes, I can see it.

 7       Q.   Mr. Inayat asked you the following:  "Now, in your shift, when

 8    guards were performing duties, can you tell me what was the description of

 9    their duties?  I mean, what were they supposed to do the whole day?"  Your

10    response was:  "The main thing they were, they were doing, they were

11    supposed to guard these people.  They were supposed to guard the prisoners

12    to prevent them from escaping, to prevent anyone else from coming from the

13    outside, making trouble, beating someone up, that kind of thing.  That was

14    the main part of what their duties were."

15            Now, you were being truthful when you provided that summary of

16    your duties to members of the Office of the Prosecutor; is that right?

17       A.   That's right.

18       Q.   Now, of all the policemen from the Omarska Police Department who

19    were directed to provide security at the Omarska camp in 1992, was there

20    anyone other than you who had 20 years of experience as a professional

21    police officer?

22       A.   Nobody.

23       Q.   In fact, the only active or professional policemen from the

24    Omarska Police Department who were working at the Omarska camp were

25    yourself, Miroslav Kvocka, and Zeljko Meakic; is that right?

Page 11179

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Would you agree that it wasn't possible for one man alone to

 3    secure the Omarska camp and all of the prisoners there, that this was a

 4    job that required the presence of a group of men?  Would you agree with

 5    that?

 6       A.   I agree, yes.

 7       Q.   The Trial Chamber has heard testimony from Sifeta Susic, Zlata

 8    Cikota, and others, that approximately 36 of the prisoners detained at

 9    Omarska in 1992 were women, and the Trial Chamber was told by Vinka

10    Andzic, who testified on your behalf, as well as other witnesses, that the

11    female detainees would spend their days in the restaurant.  Is that true?

12       A.   Yes, that's right.

13       Q.   Is it also true that the female detainees would spend their

14    evenings in one of two sleeping rooms located on the first floor of the

15    administration building?  Is that true?

16       A.   Yes, that's true.

17       Q.   Now, in your direct testimony, you said that you primarily worked

18    in the duty office on the first floor of the administration building but

19    from time to time you would stand guard in the circular glass window in

20    the staircase of the administration building that overlooked the pista.

21    Do you remember that testimony?

22       A.   Yes.

23            MR. SAXON:  I'd like to take a look for a minute at that circular

24    window, if we may.  If we can please distribute -- it should be

25    Prosecution's Exhibit 3/218.  This is a photograph taken at Omarska in

Page 11180

 1    January of this year.

 2            Mr. Usher, if you could put a copy on the ELMO, I'd be very

 3    grateful.  Thank you.

 4            I'm wondering if we can zoom down a little bit on that

 5    photograph.  Thank you.  That's good.

 6       Q.   Mr. Radic, there's a circular window in this photograph.  Was that

 7    the circular window where you stood guard from time to time in 1992?

 8       A.   It is.

 9       Q.   Now, is the area below the window that we can see part of the

10    pista and the entrance to the restaurant and the administration building?

11       A.   Yes, it is.

12       Q.   Now, you were photographed in this window the day a group of

13    journalists visited the Omarska camp sometime in August of 1992; isn't

14    that correct?

15       A.   Yes, only I don't know when the photograph was taken.  I was

16    photographed.

17       Q.   Would somewhere around the 5th of August, 1992 sound about right?

18       A.   I don't know the date, but I know I was photographed, and I saw my

19    photograph on Bosnian and Croatian television and I was surprised to see

20    myself there.  But when the photograph was taken, I don't know.

21       Q.   Witness AT testified here that there was a group of five women

22    still detained at the Omarska camp when the television journalists arrived

23    that summer.  Can you recall the names of those women who were still

24    there?

25       A.   No.  I didn't know all their names.  I knew some of them, but I

Page 11181













13  Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14  and the English transcripts












Page 11182

 1    didn't know the names of all of them, nor do I know which five had

 2    remained.

 3       Q.   Do you agree that there were five women still at the camp on that

 4    day when the journalists arrived?

 5       A.   No.  I didn't see them.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

 7            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] You understand, Mr. President, if the

 8    accused says twice in answer to a question that he doesn't know when the

 9    photograph was taken, how can he know who was there on such-and-such a

10    date?  He told you twice that he doesn't know when the photograph was

11    taken, so then how can he know what was happening on a date that he is not

12    aware of, and who was where on a date he is not aware of?

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon.

14            MR. SAXON:  I'm asking a different question.  I'm not asking the

15    witness regarding a photograph right now.  I'm asking him whether he can

16    recall -- Your Honour, may I be allowed to finish my response?

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES:  Finish.

18            MR. SAXON:  I asked the witness if he can recall whether on the

19    day that television journalists arrived at the camp there were still five

20    women detained there.  I'm not asking about a specific date; I'm asking

21    simply whether he can associate the presence of five women still detained

22    at Omarska with the presence of television journalists.  It's a different

23    question.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, do you have anything

25    to add?

Page 11183

 1            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes.  The order was whether he

 2    remembered the date when the journalists arrived.  Whether he saw those

 3    journalists, that should be the question put to him, and if he says yes,

 4    then the counsel can go on to his next question.  Thank you.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, please put your

 6    question to the witness and he will give you an answer.  But if you're

 7    making an association between the date the photograph was taken, the

 8    presence of the TV crew, then it is, after all, more or less the same

 9    thing.  But nevertheless, put your question to the witness.

10            MR. SAXON:

11       Q.   Do you recall, whenever it was that you were photographed by the

12    television crew, whether or not there were still five women detained at

13    the Omarska camp?

14       A.   I don't know when the photograph was taken and I don't know

15    whether those women were there at that time.  I really don't know.  I

16    don't know when the photograph was taken.  It was some 20 or a month -- 20

17    days or a month later that I saw my photograph on Bosnian and Croat

18    television.  I was surprised to see myself.

19            And then later on, the BBC and the CNN carried this photograph,

20    and it is on the basis of that photograph and nothing else that I am here

21    now and that I have been turned into a criminal.  When it was taken, I

22    really don't know.

23            MR. SAXON:  I'd like, please, if we may, if a copy of Exhibit

24    3/167 can be placed on the ELMO, please, the English version, and I have a

25    copy here of the B/C/S version which I'd like the usher to please provide

Page 11184

 1    to Mr. Radic because I have marked the appropriate page numbers to save

 2    time.

 3            This is a copy of the interview that was provided by Mr. Dragoljub

 4    Prcac to members of the Office of the Prosecutor.  It is Prosecution

 5    Exhibit 3/167.  And if you could turn to page 111 in your version,

 6    Mr. Radic, I've marked it with a blue sticker.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

 8            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if this is a private

 9    conversation between Mr. Saxon and Radic, then it's fine, but if I am

10    expected to participate, I would like to have the document.  I don't have

11    that document.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon.

13            MR. SAXON:  I am perfectly willing to provide Mr. Fila with my

14    copy, Your Honour.  It's just that last week when I brought in a number of

15    copies of Mr. Prcac's record of interview, I was scolded by the bench for

16    wasting a lot of paper, but I'm perfectly willing to provide Mr. Fila with

17    my copy.  I'm sorry.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that this exhibit has

19    already been tendered into evidence; is that right?

20            MR. SAXON:  Yes.

21            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes.  But I don't have such a good

22    memory.  I didn't know that this would be shown to the accused so I need

23    to have a copy.  There are thousands and thousands of documents.  I can't

24    have them all in front of me.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then.  Mr. Saxon is

Page 11185

 1    going to give you his copy, but it is true that whenever we use an exhibit

 2    that has already been admitted into evidence, there are photocopies.

 3            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I am speaking Serbian.  Mr. Saxon is

 4    speaking English.  Everything is fine.  He can use the English version.  I

 5    can use the Serbian version, and then we can proceed in that way without

 6    any problems.

 7            MR. SAXON:  If Mr. Fila could turn to page 111 of the B/C/S

 8    version and page 162 of the English version, if that could be placed on

 9    the ELMO, please.

10       Q.   Mr. Radic, do you see on page 111 of your version where Dragoljub

11    Prcac begins a paragraph with the words, "When women went to Trnopolje, 30

12    of them went."  Do you see that?

13       A.   Yes.  Yes.

14       Q.   What Mr. Prcac said there was, "When women went to Trnopolje, 30

15    of them went, I know exactly.  And only five women remained on the list.

16    They all remained until the day when they left for Manjaca; that is,

17    prisoners and another 175 detainees remained and those five women."

18            Does that refresh your memory at all whether there was still five

19    women at the Omarska camp when the foreign journalists arrived?

20       A.   That day when these journalists came to take photographs, I assert

21    with full responsibility that these five women were not down there.  These

22    five women were not in the restaurant.  Where they were, I do not know.

23       Q.   When you say, "They weren't down there.  They weren't in the

24    restaurant," you mean they were not present in the restaurant building at

25    Omarska at the camp; is that what you're saying?

Page 11186

 1       A.   That's what I am saying.  They were not in the building of the

 2    restaurant at all.  I did not see them on that day.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

 4            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in this document that is

 5    being shown by my learned friend, Mr. Saxon, there is no mention of

 6    journalists.  There is mention of a call-out for women to go to

 7    Trnopolje.  I have not found mention of journalists in this transcript.

 8            So the Prcac statement is being shown to the accused when he said

 9    175 left and five remained.  And then he is being told that the

10    journalists were there.  The witness should not be confused even when the

11    witness is the accused.  Where is there mention of journalists in this

12    text?  Thank you.

13            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I have not attempted to confuse the

14    witness.  I am simply trying to see if perhaps the statement of Mr. Prcac

15    would refresh his memory and it apparently has refreshed his memory and I

16    would like to move on now.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES:  Move on.

18            MR. SAXON:  Thank you.

19       Q.   At this point the Prosecution would like to show Exhibit 3/2 --

20       A.   I do apologise, Mr. Saxon.  When this call-out was being made, I

21    wasn't working that day.  I am quite sure of that.  I don't know.  So I

22    couldn't know whether they stayed or left.

23            When Prcac was calling out them, I don't know.  I wasn't there.  I

24    was working the day before or the day after.  The day the women were

25    leaving for Trnopolje or wherever, I wasn't working.

Page 11187

 1   [redacted]

 2   [redacted]

 3    remained at the Omarska camp.  And she testified that she even spoke to

 4    you about what was going to become of the women at the camp.  Do you

 5    recall Witness AT's testimony about that?

 6       A.   I don't know who AT is.  It was a protected witness.  The only

 7    conversation that I had during the two months at the investigation camp

 8    [redacted], and

 9    never did I talk to any of the other women regarding anything at all.

10       Q.   Is it your testimony that at no period of time was there only five

11    women detained at the Omarska camp; is that your testimony?

12       A.   There weren't five, there were 30 women.

13       Q.   Is it your testimony that after a large call-out in August, after

14    most of those women were transferred to the Trnopolje camp, that five

15    women did not remain at the Omarska camp for another two to three weeks;

16    is that what you're saying?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Okay.  That's fine.

19       A.   What I am saying is that I didn't see them.  Then three or four

20    days later, I did see the women down -- working there, and distributing

21    food.

22       Q.   All right.  All right.  So just to clarify, I want to make sure

23    that the record is clear.  Thank you for explaining that.  So there was a

24    period of time then, approximately in August of 1992, when there was a

25    smaller group of about five women still detained at Omarska; is that a

Page 11188

 1    fair statement?

 2       A.   Correct.  Yes, that is correct.

 3       Q.   Okay, thank you.  That's fine.  Thank you for clarifying.

 4       A.   There was a misunderstanding.

 5       Q.   Thank you for clarifying that.

 6            MR. SAXON:  I'd like to now show Prosecution Exhibit 3/219.  This

 7    is a short excerpt of a news broadcast produced by an English company

 8    called ITN in 1992, and it contains video footage made by a group of

 9    English television journalists who visited the Omarska camp in August of

10    1992.  And we also have, for the Chamber's convenience, a transcript of

11    this short excerpt in English, French, and in B/C/S.

12            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters don't have copies.

13            MR. SAXON:  It was my understanding that the interpreters were

14    provided with copies.

15            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16            MR. SAXON:  It was my understanding that copies had been already

17    provided to the interpreters, but we will provide more copies to them

18    right now.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.

20            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Before we play this film, the

21    two-minute insert, if I understood correctly, I would like a point to be

22    cleared up.  Will this be evidence?  Because if this is going to be

23    evidence, I think we should all have copies of this clip.  If this is just

24    something else which will not be considered evidence before this Trial

25    Chamber, then I have no objection.

Page 11189

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon.

 2            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, we have previously provided an

 3    opportunity for the Defence of the accused Radic to view this excerpt and

 4    we have provided an opportunity for the Defence of the accused Prcac to

 5    view this excerpt pursuant to our obligations of reciprocal disclosure

 6    under Rule 66, 67, and 68.  We do not have authority from the production

 7    company that took this footage to physically provide copies to the -- each

 8    of the accused.  We only have the legal authority to show the video to the

 9    members of the accused that we needed to do for disclosure purposes and

10    the legal authority to admit a copy of this excerpt into evidence for the

11    purposes of this trial only.

12            Those are the limitations placed on us by the production company

13    that actually made this film.  I believe that in this case, though, we

14    have done everything necessary and sufficient to protect the rights of the

15    accused, because they have had an opportunity to see this film.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

17            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have still not been given an answer.

18    Are you going to use this as evidence?  Yes or no, that is my question,

19    please.

20            MR. SAXON:  Yes.

21            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] In that case -- thank you.  In that

22    case, according to the rules we are guided by, there is no exception that

23    the Prosecution may have a piece of evidence and the Trial Chamber without

24    the Defence having it.  What the rights of the producers are doesn't

25    concern me.  If something is going to be used as evidence, then I have to

Page 11190

 1    have a copy.  Otherwise, my rights are being impaired and this would not

 2    be a fair trial for two parties to have copies and the Defence not to have

 3    a copy.

 4            So I oppose something being presented and admitted into evidence

 5    that the Defence does not have possession of, that it cannot investigate

 6    or check or anything.  I have seen the film.  It was shown on Yugoslav

 7    television for that matter.  Thank you.

 8            MR. SAXON:  May I respond briefly, Your Honour?

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES:  Briefly.

10            MR. SAXON:  Rule 66(B) says:

11            "The Prosecutor shall, on request, permit the Defence to inspect

12    any books, documents, photographs, and tangible objects in the

13    Prosecutor's custody or control which are material to the preparation of

14    the defence or are intended for use by the Prosecutor as evidence at

15    trial."

16            Emphasis on the word in the first phrase, "inspect" any books,

17    documents, photographs, tangible objects.  Nowhere in that Rule does it

18    say that the Prosecution has to turn over copies of all this evidence for

19    ownership to the accused.  We are completely within the parameters of this

20    Rule, Your Honour.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, have you got anything

22    to add?  We have to decide the matter, otherwise we're going to go round

23    in a circle.

24            THE INTERPRETER:  Mike, please.  Mike, please.

25            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you look at paragraph

Page 11191













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Page 11192

 1    A of the same Rule, also these are the transcripts that I was given, and

 2    you have been given that transcript, the transcript of what you're going

 3    to see and hear.  How can I know whether that transcript is correct or not

 4    without having a copy of the footage?  Finally, it is a question of

 5    principle.  What the Prosecutor is saying is that I have to see something

 6    before it becomes evidence.  He has to allow me to inspect it before it

 7    becomes evidence.  But once it is evidence, then I must also have

 8    possession of it, not only to see it, because I have to prepare my closing

 9    argument, I have to prepare my appeal, et cetera, et cetera.  I don't

10    think it is an insignificant question.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  I will confer

12    with my colleagues.

13            JUDGE WALD:  Mr. Saxon, let me just ask you a question on this

14    matter.  Apart from not handing over a copy of the tape or the video, or

15    whatever it is I think that Mr. Fila wants, I take it that you have no

16    problem, or do you, with, for instance, giving him any information that he

17    needs to know about who produced it, you know, viewing -- allowing him to

18    view it again more -- that sort of thing, so that if he has some need to

19    try to authenticate it or to compare the film, which you can't do

20    sometimes quickly by seeing it and following it.  It's simply that you're

21    not allowed to hand him a copy of the video, but otherwise you would give

22    him any information about this video that might be necessary for him to

23    follow through on his investigation.

24            MR. SAXON:  That's absolutely correct, Your Honour.  We have

25    already provided a declaration by one of our investigators as to the

Page 11193

 1    origin of this video.

 2            JUDGE WALD:  No, but he may -- I mean, if you're a defence lawyer,

 3    you may want to watch it slowly, you may want to compare the transcript,

 4    you may want to know who produced it, et cetera.

 5            MR. SAXON:  And Justice Wald, Mr. Fila would be welcome to come

 6    into the Office of the Prosecutor and spend all the time that he wants

 7    reviewing this video.

 8            JUDGE WALD:  So the only thing that you can't do because you feel

 9    constrained by whatever, your producer things, is to actually hand him a

10    copy for whatever use he wants to make of it himself.

11            MR. SAXON:  That is correct, Your Honour.  We are legally

12    prohibited from doing that.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, before we confer, I

14    too have a question.  You're going to ask for the admission of this

15    exhibit into evidence.  Is the original going to be admitted or not?

16            MR. SAXON:  It can be, Your Honour.  We have the original

17    available so that again Mr. Fila and the Trial Chamber can compare the

18    excerpt.  It's a short two-minute excerpt that we have created with the

19    original.  We did not want to show the original tape because that would

20    take about two hours of time.  We have the original available for

21    admission as well under Exhibit 219.  We would simply ask that these

22    exhibits be placed under seal so that they are not treated as public

23    documents, these videos.

24            JUDGE WALD:  Haven't they been shown on national TV already?

25            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, that is absolutely correct.

Page 11194

 1            JUDGE WALD:  Why do they need to be under seal?

 2            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, because there are legal copyright issues

 3    pertaining to these videos.  That's what has been explained to us.

 4            JUDGE WALD:  But usually criminal rights take some precedence

 5    over - I just say as a general matter - over contractual copyright

 6    considerations.

 7            MR. SAXON:  We don't see that any rights of the accused are being

 8    threatened.

 9            JUDGE WALD:  That's what we're trying to explore.

10            MR. SAXON:  I understand.  I understand.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

12                          [Trial Chamber confers with registrar]

13                          [Trial Chamber confers]

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I have a question for

15    you.  If the document is admitted into evidence and remains available with

16    the registry so that it can always be consulted, do you consider this to

17    be a limitation regarding the rights of the accused?

18            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecutor is

19    talking about a two-minute clip that he will show and he's asking you to

20    admit into evidence something that lasts two hours, two minutes extracted

21    out of the context.  The two hours is something that neither myself, as

22    Defence counsel, nor the other Defence counsel, will see, nor the

23    Chamber.  If he wants to tender it, then we should be shown the whole two

24    hours.

25            Secondly, we haven't received in writing a prohibition by the

Page 11195

 1    producer that I may not see the tape.  It has been shown on television

 2    everywhere, but only Toma Fila and Mladjo Radic can't see it.  Surely I'm

 3    not about to sell it or to rent it out.  The whole world has seen this,

 4    and it was shown in the opening statement by Mr. Niemann, you remember;

 5    you remember that clip.

 6            The Prosecutor has three hours for the cross-examination.  Let him

 7    show us the tape for two hours and then he will still have an hour left,

 8    if he wants to have the whole recording admitted.  The accused hasn't seen

 9    the two minutes or the whole programme, ever.  Surely his rights need to

10    be respected too.  Therefore, let the Prosecutor show us the whole

11    two-hour programme, then tell us which two minutes are of interest to him,

12    and then it's fine, so we can all see what we're talking about.  The other

13    people were in that camp, not just Mladjo Radic, I mean in the

14    investigation centre.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, let us be quite

16    clear.  Do you intend to tender into evidence the two-hour video or only

17    the two-minute excerpt?

18            MR. SAXON:  I had, Your Honour, that intention, only in abundance

19    of caution to be fair to everyone, but I'm going to withdraw that now.  It

20    is our intention now simply to show and tender this two-minute excerpt so

21    that there won't be any issue that we have -- that there needs to be two

22    hours of film shown today.  Mr. Fila has had the opportunity to see this

23    excerpt because we distributed it to him a couple of months ago and then

24    we asked to take it back, again for copyright reasons.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, so only two minutes

Page 11196

 1    are going to be tendered into evidence.

 2            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] But those two minutes have been

 3    extracted out of a two-hour programme, so you've seen two minutes of

 4    what?

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  We are going to have

 6    a break now and the Chamber will discuss the matter and we will come back

 7    with a ruling.  So we are going to have a half-hour break now.

 8                          --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

 9                          --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

11            You may be seated, Mr. Radic, please.

12            THE ACCUSED RADIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor wishes to present

14    an excerpt, to show an excerpt, video footage, which is the object of a

15    contract and conditions the diffusion of the video [as interpreted].  The

16    Chamber is of the opinion that it is up to the Prosecutor to decide

17    whether to use or not to use that video based on the contractual rights.

18    If the Prosecutor decides to utilise the video or parts of the video, the

19    Defence has the right to take knowledge, to see the integral part of the

20    video, and to use it under the same conditions as the Prosecutor has used

21    it.  A possible exhibit to be tendered into evidence will always have to

22    be done publicly.

23            That is the ruling of the Chamber.

24            Mr. Saxon.

25            MR. SAXON:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.  The Prosecution would

Page 11197

 1    certainly be willing to tender not only the excerpt of the video but we

 2    will, upon further reflection now, we will tender the entire two-hour

 3    video that we received.  We would simply ask the Trial Chamber, and we

 4    will provide a copy to Mr. Fila of the excerpt and the two-hour original

 5    videotape.  We will notify the production company that created this video

 6    of what we were doing.  We would simply ask that the Chamber please

 7    strictly regulate the use and possession of the video by the counsel for

 8    the accused and that the order that -- and that the Chamber order Mr. Fila

 9    to return both the excerpt and the original video upon the close of these

10    proceedings to the Prosecution.  Thank you.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic first.  Please

12    proceed.

13            MR. LUKIC:  If this would be the evidence in this trial, then the

14    Defence of Mr. Kvocka requests the same footage and the same video, and

15    also we request that it would be -- it be provided for the accused.  They

16    have to examine the same video so we can discuss it with them.  Thank

17    you.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.

19            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I won't take up too

20    much time.  What I was going to say is precisely what Mr. Branko Lukic

21    said, and the Zigic Defence would also like to be supplied with the

22    document.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Any other remarks from other

24    Defence counsel on this issue?  Mr. Nikolic.

25            MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we discussed the

Page 11198

 1    matter during the break and this is our joint stand, the joint position of

 2    all the Defence counsel as presented by Mr. Lukic on behalf of us all.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If I understand correctly,

 4    Mr. Jovan Simic subscribes to the same position, does he?

 5            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that is correct.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay, Mr. Saxon.

 7            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, we can certainly provide a copy of these

 8    videos to the Defence for the accused, Prcac, as well pursuant to our

 9    obligations under Rule 66 and 67, our reciprocal disclosure obligations.

10    As a matter of fact, last week Mr. Jovan Simic came into the Office of the

11    Prosecutor in order to view this video before it was going to be shown

12    today.  However, it's the Prosecution's submission that we have absolutely

13    no obligation to provide copies of this video evidence to the accused

14    Kvocka, Kos, or Zigic.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Lukic.

16            MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, as we are aware on this video the

17    general conditions in the investigation centre could be seen, so our

18    client is affected with the same video, although it wasn't in the camp at

19    that time.  So we still remain with our request to have the same video.

20    Thank you.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic.

22            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I make something

23    clearer?  It is true that I was in the Office of the Prosecutor last week

24    and I just saw those two minutes.  I didn't know that they had -- that it

25    was extracted, taken out of context from a two-hour footage, by way of

Page 11199

 1    explanation.  Thank you.

 2            JUDGE WALD:  Mr. Saxon, we seem to have gotten ourselves between a

 3    rock and a hard place here.  At an earlier time before we took the break,

 4    you were proposing only to introduce the short two-minute excerpt, which

 5    of course could be played for the entirety of the -- right here in the

 6    Chamber so all accused could actually see it, as well as the counsel.  I

 7    think what Judge Rodrigues's decision that he read, although it was a

 8    little -- not entirely clear in the English version, or at least the one

 9    that I saw, was the notion that the Defence counsel, if that were done,

10    they had a right to access, to at least see that those two minutes, the

11    context out of which those two minutes had been taken, so that if there

12    was something different 20 minutes later, they would have a right to

13    propose that.  But it seems to me that that's a little bit different than

14    the notion, you know, if the whole two hours goes in, and that whole two

15    hours can conceivably be used against any defendant here, then their

16    rights may be greater.  And I'm wondering if -- at least up for grabs, as

17    it were, might not be to just put in for introduction the two minutes, but

18    to make accessible to the counsel so that they can view the whole two

19    hours and see if there's anything else, but the whole two hours wouldn't

20    go into evidence, so they wouldn't have the full, you know, notion of --

21            MR. SAXON:  Judge Wald, that would be perfectly acceptable to the

22    Prosecution.  And we would certainly give the accused, all of the accused,

23    if they wish, access to come into our offices at any time and view the

24    entire two-hour tape.

25            JUDGE WALD:  And the only thing that would be put into evidence,

Page 11200

 1    if it were accepted, would be the two minutes.

 2            MR. SAXON:  That would be perfectly acceptable to the Prosecution,

 3    Your Honour.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan.

 5            MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Your Honour, we agree that we should have a copy,

 6    access to that full two hours, but we certainly don't want to be coming

 7    into the Office of the Prosecutor.  We want to receive a copy, and if at

 8    the end of the proceedings, after the appeal, the Prosecutor wants it

 9    back, they can have it back.  But we certainly don't want to be running to

10    this building, into their offices, and viewing it on their system.  We

11    want a copy of the tape that we can view ourselves, and if Your Honours

12    want us to return it after the appeal, after termination of the full

13    proceedings, that's fine.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, would you like to

15    respond to the request?

16            MR. SAXON:  We could simply, if it would facilitate things, Your

17    Honour, so that we could move on, at the next break we could make a phone

18    call to the production company and see if we could comply with all of

19    these requests and then perhaps finish this argument regarding

20    admissibility of the excerpt at the close of the evidence of Mr. Radic.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That means that you're not going

22    to use those two minutes now for the cross-examination of Mr. Radic; is

23    that right?  Are you going to leave that for the moment?

24            MR. SAXON:  I would like to show the two minutes, Your Honour, but

25    admissibility, as you know, is normally argued and discussed at the end of

Page 11201













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Page 11202

 1    someone's evidence, and I'm simply suggesting that we do that at the end

 2    of the evidence, Your Honour.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I didn't quite understand.  I

 4    apologise.  Are you suggesting that you ask the questions afterwards, at

 5    the end, or are you going to ask for admission at the end?

 6            MR. SAXON:  I'm simply going to ask for admission, yes, at the end

 7    of the testimony, but I would ask permission to show the tape now, to show

 8    the excerpt now.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  Go ahead, then.  Please

10    proceed.

11            MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'd like to show the first

12    half of this short excerpt, Prosecution's Exhibit 3/219.  If perhaps the

13    audiovisual booth could darken the lights a little bit so that the video

14    will show clearly on our screens.  Could we please run the first part of

15    this video excerpt.

16                          [Videotape played]

17            MR. SAXON:  Can we please go back to that last shot.  Can we

18    rewind the tape to the very last shot that we saw?  Thank you.  Can we

19    hold it there for a minute.

20       Q.   Mr. Radic, that is you standing in the window in that video, is it

21    not?

22       A.   That's right.

23       Q.   Now I'd like to examine the view that you had when you stood guard

24    in that circular window.

25            MR. SAXON:  I'd like to leave the video for now, please, and if we

Page 11203

 1    can go back to the use of the ELMO.  Can we please have distributed and

 2    placed on the ELMO Exhibit 3/220.

 3       Q.   Mr. Radic, while we're passing a photograph around, what kind of

 4    weapon were you carrying at that time?  Do you recall?

 5       A.   I do recall.  An automatic rifle and a pistol, 762 millimetres.

 6       Q.   And the uniform that you were wearing, can you describe that for

 7    us?

 8       A.   Yes, I can.  The classical type of police uniform that I had worn

 9    for 20 years.

10       Q.   Exhibit 3/220 is a photograph taken in January of this year at the

11    Omarska mine from inside that circular window where you were standing,

12    Mr. Radic.

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Now, when you're standing there inside that circular window,

15    you're looking straight across the pista to the building known as the

16    hangar; is that true?

17       A.   That's right.

18            MR. SAXON:  Can we bring the camera down a little bit, please.

19    Can we zoom in a little bit, please, a little bit more.  Thank you.

20    That's right.

21       Q.   Now, there's only about 20 metres from one side of the pista to

22    the other; is that about right?

23       A.   Yes, the breadth of the building.

24       Q.   On the days that you stood guard in that window, did you ever see

25    prisoners sitting or lying on the pista?

Page 11204

 1       A.   Yes, I did.

 2       Q.   On a normal day, about how many prisoners would you see on the

 3    pista?

 4       A.   I don't know the number, but there were quite a number of them.

 5       Q.   Well, let's discuss this a little bit.

 6            MR. SAXON:  Mr. Usher, if you could place again Exhibit 3/215 the

 7    English version on the ELMO, this is the record of interview with

 8    Mr. Radic.

 9       Q.   And if Mr. Radic could pick up the B/C/S copy of his interview and

10    turn to page 57 in the B/C/S version and page 55 in the English version.

11            Are you on page 57, Mr. Radic?

12       A.   Yes, I am.

13       Q.   On that page you'll see a question by Mr. Inayat where he

14    says, "And do you know what were the number of people who were detained in

15    this area known as pista?"

16            Do you see that?

17       A.   I see it.

18       Q.   It's around -- in the English version it's a little bit more than

19    half way down the page.  Your response was, "I couldn't tell you the exact

20    number, many people."  Mr. Inayat then asked you, "You have no rough

21    estimates as to what was the number.  Would you say hundreds?  Would you

22    say thousands?"  Your response:  "About 300 people.  About 300, sometimes

23    more, sometimes less."

24            Do you recall that?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 11205

 1       Q.   Did you ever see prisoners who showed signs of being beaten or

 2    mistreated as they sat on the pista?

 3       A.   No.

 4            MR. SAXON:  Can we please have distributed and placed on the ELMO

 5    Exhibit 3/222.  This is another photograph taken from inside the circular

 6    window in the administration building in January of this year.  It's a

 7    photograph of the view from the inside looking a bit towards the

 8    right-hand side.  I'll wait until you get a copy, Mr. Radic.  Can we place

 9    a copy on the ELMO, please.

10       Q.   Now, if you look at this photograph, Mr. Radic, looking towards

11    the right a bit from the inside of that window, from where you stood at

12    that circular window when you were on guard duty there, you could see the

13    pista, the hangar, at least part of the "white house", and the prisoners

14    entering and exiting the restaurant building; is that right?

15       A.   That's right.

16       Q.   Right down below you is the entrance to the restaurant; is that

17    correct?

18       A.   Correct.

19       Q.   And a little bit further away, we can see the roof and part of the

20    building known as the "white house"; is that right?

21       A.   That's right.

22       Q.   Now, help us understand something.  If you stood all the way at

23    the left of that circular window as we are viewing it now, could you see

24    the entire "white house" including the entrance, if you moved all the way

25    to the left of the window, could you get a better view of the "white

Page 11206

 1    house"?

 2       A.   Looking at it as I am now, I can't see it.  I can just see the

 3    roof of the "white house", and the lateral wall, because the part covering

 4    the entrance is obstructing the view.

 5            MR. SAXON:  Okay.  Can we remove that photograph now and place

 6    Exhibit 3/215 back on the ELMO, please, this is Mr. Radic's record of

 7    interview.

 8       Q.   Mr. Radic, if you could pick up the copy that is in your language,

 9    B/C/S, please, and turn to page 180, and this will be the bottom of page

10    181 in the English version.

11            Mr. Radic, are you on page 180 of your version now?

12       A.   180?  Yes, I'm looking at it.

13       Q.   Do you see a question from Mr. Inayat where he asks you, "From the

14    position at the tower, were you able to see the white house also?"  And

15    this is at the bottom of the page 181 for people following in English.  Do

16    you see where he asks you that question?  You can take your time, that's

17    all right.  "From his position at the tower," that's where his question

18    starts off.  Do you see it?

19       A.   Oh, yes, yes, I see it.

20       Q.   Mr. Inayat asked you, "From the position at the tower, were you

21    able to see the white house also?"  Your response:  "Partially, yes."

22            And if we turn the page of the English version, Mr. Inayat asked

23    you, "If you were facing -- if you tried to look at the white house, could

24    you see the right-hand side of the white house."  Your response, "I think

25    I could have seen all of it because I had some, some room to move.  So if

Page 11207

 1    I had gone to one side, I could have seen all of the white house."  Do you

 2    recall that?

 3       A.   I don't know what page that is on, but it's quite possible.

 4       Q.   All right.  Now, when you stood in that window, that circular

 5    window or at other times, did you ever see new prisoners being brought to

 6    the Omarska camp?

 7       A.   Being brought in?  If they came in front at the pista, I could see

 8    them.  If they came from the side, I couldn't see them.

 9       Q.   All right.  So there were some times when you did see new

10    prisoners being brought in?  I'm just asking you, yes or no.

11       A.   Yes, there were.

12       Q.   Now, a lot of testimony has been presented in this trial about

13    prisoners being beaten when they arrived at the Omarska camp.  My question

14    for you is:  Did you ever see prisoners being beaten when they arrived at

15    Omarska?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Now, did you ever see prisoners beaten when they went to the

18    restaurant for their daily meal or when they left the restaurant after

19    eating?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Now, [redacted], who knew you and was a prisoner in Omarska,

22    testified here about you leading a group of guards as they beat prisoners

23    in the restaurant.  This is at page 4075 to 4080 of the trial transcript.

24    [redacted] also talked about you talking in that -- standing in that

25    circular window observing what he called a show from that window

Page 11208

 1    overlooking the pista as the prisoners were being beaten as they entered

 2    the restaurant.

 3            How do you explain the contradictions between your testimony and

 4    the testimony of these former detainees?

 5       A. [redacted] didn't put it that way.  [redacted] said when he was

 6    leaving that he was hit by a guard called Savic, and that I could not have

 7    seen that blow.

 8            Mr. Saxon, at the time [redacted] was talking, I was at the tower

 9    and that is on the first floor, so I was physically separated from them.

10    I cannot see the corridor leading into the restaurant, nor what is -- was

11    happening in the restaurant.  So I am claiming with full responsibility

12    that [redacted] was lying.

13            I couldn't have seen it.  From this tower you can't see the

14    restaurant, the entrance, or the people coming out of the restaurant.  All

15    you can see is the pista.

16       Q.   I need to clarify something Mr. Radic, and I'm sorry if I wasn't

17    clear. [redacted] testimony, what he said was inside the restaurant,

18    you led a group of prisoners [sic] as they beat prisoners coming in for

19    lunch.  He didn't say that you were up in the circular tower.  His

20    testimony was that within the restaurant, you and other guards were

21    beating prisoners.

22            (redacted) testimony, and this is at page 5277 to 5278, was that

23    on another occasion you stood in that circular window and watched as many

24    prisoners were being beaten out on the pista.  Now, how do you explain

25    these contradictions, if you can?

Page 11209

 1       A.   Never.  Never did I take people in for lunch, nor did I ever

 2    attend any kind of beatings.  And this second gentleman that you

 3    mentioned, he said so many lies in his statement that you didn't show

 4    here, that guards had pierced with knives the hands of a detainee.  And

 5    this gentleman is still a priest in Zagreb, and call him in and to see

 6    whether his hands have been pierced.  He was lying.

 7       Q.   Mr. Radic, during your direct testimony, you described an incident

 8    where you saw a guard named Zdravko -- and I apologise for my poor

 9    pronunciation, Zdravko Govedarica, beating a prisoner at the Omarska

10    camp.  This is at 1062 to 1063 of the transcript.  Other than the

11    mistreatment inflicted by Mr. Govedarica on that one occasion, did you

12    ever see prisoners being beaten at any other time on the pista or around

13    the restaurant building when you worked in Omarska?

14       A.   I didn't say that I saw Zdravko Govedarica beating a man on the

15    pista.  At that point in time I was in the restaurant, and one of the

16    women detainees -- she was a protected witness, so I'd rather not mention

17    her name, but I can name her.

18       Q.   Mr. Radic, I'm not asking you about that incident with

19    Mr. Govedarica.  Thank you for clarifying that.  My question was:  Other

20    than that incident where you spoke with Mr. Govedarica, did you witness

21    the mistreatment, the beating of prisoners, on the pista or around the

22    restaurant?  Just yes or no.

23       A.   No.  No.

24       Q.   Are you aware if any prisoners were killed with a firearm at the

25    Omarska camp?

Page 11210

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   Did you shoot any prisoners at the Omarska camp with a firearm?

 3       A.   Never.  Absolutely never.

 4       Q.   Did you ever see a dead prisoner in the Omarska camp during the

 5    time that you worked there?

 6       A.   No.  I heard about it from the interview of Zeljko Meakic that two

 7    men had died of natural causes, but I didn't see them.

 8       Q.   Nedzija Fazlic, who testified here last year, counted 12 bodies,

 9    12 dead bodies lying by the "white house" on the 23rd of July, 1992, the

10    day that she arrived at the Omarska camp.  This is at page 5092 of the

11    transcript.  Witness AT described seeing bodies removed every evening from

12    the camp in a yellow truck.  This is at page 6081.  Tell us, please:  How

13    is it that you, a professional policeman charged with providing security,

14    failed to see these things?

15       A.   I claim emphatically and continue to assert that I did not see

16    that.  Who did; let them tell you.  And it is not true that I saw that

17    number of bodies, because a normal man cannot stand the sight of so many

18    bodies, on his feet, and remain standing.

19       Q.   I'm going to move on.  The Trial Chamber has heard a great deal of

20    testimony about the murder of a prisoner at Omarska named Rizo Hadzalic,

21    who was beaten to death on the pista by guards, in front of many

22    prisoners.  Did you witness this killing?

23       A.   No.  I also heard about that here from witnesses, but I did not

24    see it.

25       Q.   You say that you heard about it here from the witnesses.  Well,

Page 11211













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Page 11212

 1    according to Azedin Oklopcic and Abdulah Brkic, members of the guard shift

 2    that you worked on committed this killing.  Shortly after the killing

 3    occurred, did you learn about the killing of Rizo Hadzalic?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Did you ever go inside the "white house"?

 6       A.   I did.

 7       Q.   About how many times?

 8       A.   Once.

 9       Q.   And why on that occasion did you go inside the "white house"?

10       A.   I entered because I was informed by the guards that Fikret

11    Harambasic, a colleague of mine from work, was in the "white house."  And

12    one day, was it that same day or a day later, I entered the "white house"

13    and I found Fikret in the first room to the right, sitting on a bench,

14    with a couple of other men that I didn't know.  We talked, just basics:

15    What are you doing here?  I gave him a packet of cigarettes, a sandwich.

16    I left the "white house" and never entered it again.

17       Q.   You said that Fikret was sitting with a couple of other men.

18    Besides Fikret and these two men, were there other detainees held in the

19    "white house" at that time?

20       A.   I didn't see them.  Possibly in the other rooms, but I didn't go

21    inside.  I didn't look.

22       Q.   How did Fikret Harambasic and the other two men look at the time

23    when you were in there?

24       A.   How they looked?  I am not a psychologist, so I can't tell you,

25    but I know that the men looked frightened, concerned, just as I was.  We

Page 11213

 1    inquired about each other, what we were doing there, what was going on.

 2    He didn't know, I didn't know.  That was the whole conversation that we

 3    had.

 4       Q.   Well, here's how Kerim Mesanovic, another witness in this case,

 5    described the prisoners in the "white house."  This is at page 5169 of the

 6    transcript:

 7            "All those who were there had faces that had been beaten up, had

 8    fractures on their face, fractured jaw bones, split lips, lips split open,

 9    and similar injuries."

10            Is it your testimony today that you didn't see any injuries like

11    this on the men that you saw in the "white house"?

12       A.   Yes, because I didn't see them.

13       Q.   How did it smell inside the "white house," Mr. Radic?

14       A.   There were no perfumes, and you know what people smell like when

15    they're sweating and unbathed.  That was the kind of smell.

16       Q.   Does that mean there was a stench in the "white house"?

17       A.   Well, it wasn't a nice smell, but it wasn't really a stench.

18       Q.   According to your testimony, you worked a lot in an office that

19    you called the duty office, on the first floor of the administration

20    building.  When you were on duty inside that duty office, would you sit in

21    that office for hours at a time?

22       A.   Sometimes I did.  Sometimes I would go out, but I spent more time

23    inside than not.

24       Q.   There was a radio in that duty office as well as a telephone, and

25    there were also two typists working there as well; is that right?

Page 11214

 1       A.   That's right.

 2       Q.   Would you be on duty in that duty office on that first floor

 3    during the day, during the night, or both, depending on the time of your

 4    shift?

 5       A.   I worked during the day and during the night, and I was on guard

 6    duty, so I worked.

 7       Q.   And you were just an ordinary guard like the other men who worked

 8    with you on the same shift; is that your testimony?

 9       A.   Correct, something like that.

10       Q.   Did you have any additional power or authority beyond that of an

11    ordinary guard on the shift?

12       A.   No.  I don't know what you have in mind.

13       Q.   Well, I don't know if I can state my question any clearer.  I will

14    move on.  I think you've answered it.

15            During the day, when you were in the duty office, did you ever

16    hear the sounds of beatings coming from the interrogation room?

17       A.   I did hear sounds.  Whether they were beating someone or not, it

18    is hard to tell what was happening.

19       Q.   Well, what kind of sounds did you hear?  Please describe the

20    sounds that you heard.

21       A.   Let me tell you:  As this was an office you entered without

22    knocking on the door and anyone could come in as they felt like it - we

23    would describe it like a railway station - and these two typists were

24    working there and complaining all the time because they couldn't work

25    properly.  So you could hear sometimes words to the effect, "Don't lie.

Page 11215

 1    Who are you telling lies to?"  Then you could hear a thump of a piece of

 2    furniture falling, whether it was a chair or something.  But on that basis

 3    I couldn't make any conclusions as to whether somebody was beating anybody

 4    or yelling at anybody, because I didn't go inside, so I don't know.

 5            MR. SAXON:  If we can please turn to Exhibit 3/215 again, please.

 6    If we could have page 165 placed on ELMO.

 7       Q.   And Mr. Radic, if you also could turn to page 165, please.

 8    Mr. Radic, about a third of the way down or a quarter of the way down on

 9    page 165, you see Mr. Inayat asking you a question, and this is about half

10    way down the page in the English version.  "Did you ever hear any beatings

11    happening inside the interrogations rooms?"  Your response, "No."

12            Are you telling us something different today:  That you actually

13    did hear sounds coming from the interrogation rooms?

14       A.   It is correct that I heard sounds, but I didn't see beatings, and

15    on the basis of sound, I cannot say whether somebody is beating somebody,

16    or yelling at somebody, or demanding that he confess something.

17       Q.   I see.  Well, let me ask you another question then.  Witness DC5,

18    who is an old friend of yours from Ljubija, testified that during the

19    three days that he was held in the garage on the ground floor of the

20    administration building, he could hear "screams, the sounds of things

21    breaking, howling," from the rooms above on the first floor of the

22    administration building.  This is at page 8876 of the transcript.

23            Now tell me, how do you explain that your friend could hear these

24    sounds from the floor below, but you really couldn't hear these sounds

25    from an office down the corridor.  Can you explain that?

Page 11216

 1       A.   I don't know what you are implying.  I just said that I did hear

 2    it and you are saying that I didn't hear it.

 3            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That was exactly my objection, but the

 4    witness has answered so it's all right.  I withdraw it.

 5       A.   I said I did hear a noise, yells, "Why are you lying?  Don't lie.

 6    Why are you lying?"  An object falls.  Whether they were beating or not, I

 7    didn't see it, and the same things could be heard by this man downstairs.

 8    I said I heard it.

 9            MR. SAXON:

10       Q.   But you didn't recall those sounds when you spoke to Mr. Inayat in

11    1999, did you?

12       A.   I didn't remember many things that I was being asked because I was

13    doing my daily work there.  I didn't find them interesting at the time,

14    and there wasn't a day that went by that I didn't do something to help

15    someone.  I had no idea I would be coming here to testify.

16       Q.   You didn't find them interesting at the time.  I'd like to explore

17    that a little bit with you.  Witness DD/10 testified recently that from

18    the duty office where she worked, this was the same duty office where you

19    worked, one could hear the sounds of mistreatment and beating coming from

20    the room next door.  Nada Markovski gave similar testimony.  And you're

21    saying as a police officer charged with providing security, you did not

22    find these sounds interesting?

23       A.   No.  Mr. Saxon, Mrs. Markovski, and the other lady, I don't want

24    to mention her name, they worked every day in the camp from 7.00 until

25    5.00 or from 8.00 until 6.00.  And Mlado Radic worked every third day.

Page 11217

 1    And Mlado Radic out of 30 days worked for 10 days and they worked every

 2    day, so it's normal that they could hear more than I did.  There's no

 3    comparison between me and them.  I would work on a Monday and then come

 4    again on a Thursday, and they would be there all the time.

 5       Q.   I'm not asking you who heard more noise than someone else.  What

 6    I'm asking you is why you said a few minutes ago that you didn't find

 7    these loud noises interesting when you heard thumps and screaming and

 8    people being interrogated.  I'm asking you what you mean by that.

 9       A.   What I meant was that I heard but didn't see, and I could do

10    nothing.  I couldn't enter the inspector's room and ask him what he was

11    doing when he was my superior.  And I never did go inside even when I did

12    hear those sounds.

13       Q.   During the day when you stepped out of the duty office for some

14    reason such as to eat or to use the toilet, did you ever see prisoners

15    leaving any of the interrogation rooms?

16       A.   I did.

17       Q.   Did you notice any signs of beating or other signs of mistreatment

18    on those prisoners?

19       A.   I did.

20       Q.   Did you ask them what happened to them?

21       A.   I did not.

22       Q.   You didn't find those signs of mistreatment interesting?

23       A.   I don't know what you consider to be signs of mistreatment.  I saw

24    people who were red, sometimes tearful, and walking on their own two

25    feet.  And that they had been mistreated to such an extent that they were

Page 11218

 1    carried out in blankets and things like that as witnesses claimed, that is

 2    something I really did not see.

 3       Q.   What were the sleeping rooms used for during the day?

 4       A.   For interrogation.

 5       Q.   Now, in the evening when women were in their sleeping rooms, could

 6    anyone just go upstairs and speak to the women in their rooms or were they

 7    protected somehow at night?

 8       A.   They would go together at the same time and they went to sleep,

 9    and nobody talked to them during the night, nor did anyone interrogate

10    them, nor were there any interrogations at night of them or the detainees

11    or anyone at all.

12       Q.   You say that nobody talked to the women at night.  Suppose if

13    someone from outside the camp wanted to come into the camp and speak to

14    one of the women in the sleeping room during the evening, could that

15    person get permission to speak to one of the women from a commander?

16       A.   I don't know who was the commander, and I never came across any

17    such cases that anyone interrogated them, and I am not aware of any such

18    cases.

19       Q.   Where someone came to the camp at night to speak to one of the

20    women in the sleeping rooms, for whatever reason, you're not aware of

21    that?

22       A.   I am not aware of that, and something like that could not happen.

23    At the entrance to the restaurant there were two policemen at the very

24    entrance.  Upstairs, when you reached the first floor, there was a guard

25    called Bozidar Markovic, and I was on duty in the office, or Zeljko

Page 11219

 1    Meakic, or someone else.  And those women were sleeping across the way

 2    from the corridor, and that somebody could pass by four or five of us and

 3    for none of us to notice them, that would be impossible.

 4       Q.   Well, could someone come with permission and speak to one of the

 5    women in the sleeping rooms?

 6       A.   During the night, no.

 7       Q.   Do you know a man named Radomir Andzic?

 8       A.   Radjo, yes, I do, I know him.

 9       Q.   How do you know him?

10       A.   Well, if that's the one I know, he worked as an inspector in the

11    municipal assembly of Bosanski Novi or Novi Grad, and he was a good friend

12    of Jadranka Cigelj's.  And during the day he would come on several

13    occasions to bring her food and so on.

14       Q.   Do you know that Mr. Andzic submitted a formal statement on your

15    behalf in this case, right?

16       A.   I don't know.  I don't have it, but it's possible.

17       Q.   Well, I'm going to show you now.  It's been admitted into

18    evidence.

19            MR. SAXON:  I'd like to show a document that has been marked just

20    for identification purposes today as Exhibit 3/224.  It is the formal

21    statement of Radomir Andzic submitted by the Defence of the accused,

22    Radic.  And we have it in B/C/S, English, and in French.

23            If an English copy could be placed on the ELMO, please, and a copy

24    of the B/C/S version given to Mr. Radic.

25       Q.   Mr. Radic, if you could take a look at this document, please, in

Page 11220

 1    your own language.

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Could you turn the page so you can actually see Mr. Andzic's

 4    statement where he's talking about you.  Do you see that?  Down towards

 5    the bottom of the page, Mr. Radic, there's a one sentence -- there's a

 6    paragraph that's only one sentence long.  It says, "I remember Mladjo

 7    Radic as an honest man."

 8            Do you see that?  "I remember Mladjo Radic as an honest man."

 9    It's a single sentence standing alone.

10       A.   I've found it, yes.

11       Q.   Let's look at the paragraph below that.  Paragraph below that

12    reads that, "Ilijaz Demic, like other detainees I talked to during my

13    visits to the investigation centre, never said anything bad about Mlado.

14    On the opposite, they spoke well of him and were grateful because he

15    helped me see Ilijaz and other detainees.  Mlado also made it possible for

16    me to see Jadranka Cigelj in the rooms where the women were held."

17            Now, you've testified today that during the day, the women were in

18    the restaurant.  They were held in the evening in two rooms upstairs.

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   So you made it possible for your friend Mr. Andzic to come in in

21    the evening and visit with Jadranka Cigelj, isn't that true?

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

23       A.   Yes, I'll answer, that's quite true, correct.  But Mr. Radjo

24    Andzic did not interrogate Jadranka Cigelj.  He brought her food and a

25    change of clothing.  That is something quite different.

Page 11221













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Page 11222

 1            MR. SAXON:

 2       Q.   Thank you for clarifying that.

 3       A.   Yes, and it wasn't during the night.  Perhaps in the evening hours

 4    up to 8.00 or maybe 9.00.  Afterwards, at night, nobody was allowed in.

 5       Q.   Well --

 6       A.   And I say that with full responsibility.

 7       Q.   Well, you made it possible for Mr. Andzic to visit Jadranka Cigelj

 8    in that room on the first floor of the administration building; isn't that

 9    true?

10       A.   Yes, I knew Jadranka and I knew Mr. Radjo, and I knew they were

11    friends and, yes, I did enable him to do that.

12       Q.   And you were able to do that because you were the guard shift

13    leader; isn't that true?

14       A.   No.  No.

15       Q.   Well, let's --

16       A.   Not as shift leader.

17       Q.   Well, let's talk about that.  During the Prosecution's case in

18    chief, 26 former prisoners from the Omarska camp came here, they sat where

19    you were sitting now, and they told the Trial Chamber that you were a

20    leader of a guard shift or a commander of a guard shift.

21            Were all of those people mistaken; is that your testimony?

22       A.   I was not a shift leader, neither was I a guard shift leader.  And

23    I'm asking myself on the basis of which those -- on the basis of what

24    those people are maintaining that.  And I ask you, Mr. Saxon, on the basis

25    of what law, rule, regulation, or decision you claim that I was that?

Page 11223

 1       Q.   I ask the questions here today.  It's my responsibility and my job

 2    to ask you questions.  It's your job today to answer them; is that

 3    correct?  Is that clear to you today?

 4       A.   I was not a shift leader.  I was not guard shift leader, nor was

 5    anybody shift leader to me or guard shift leader except Zeljko Meakic.

 6       Q.   At least half a dozen former prisoners from the Omarska camp came

 7    here and described how you would give orders to the guards on your shift,

 8    or that the guards would come to you for instructions, and I'm talking

 9    [redacted], I'm talking [redacted]

10    [redacted].  Were they all mistaken in what they saw?

11       A.   They were mistaken in what they saw and they know nothing about

12    it.  They don't know the hierarchy or the chain of command in the centre.

13    They don't know any of that.  They were not my superiors.  They were not

14    my superiors, regardless of the fact that I worked there.

15       Q.   I'm sorry.  There may be something that's not clear in the

16    transcript.  You said, "They were not my superiors."  Is that what you

17    said or did you say something else?  Because I don't know who you're

18    referring to.  Did you mean, "They were not my subordinates"?

19       A.   They were not my superiors, those people that said they were shift

20    leaders, and they don't know my position in the camp.  They just heard

21    about it and talked about it.  I was never shift leader or guard leader.

22    And the first time I heard the term "shift leader," Your Honours, is, with

23    all respect, here, when I came here and read the indictment terming me

24    shift leader, but nobody ever referred to me by that term.

25       Q.   Well, at the very least, as the policeman with the most years of

Page 11224

 1    experience working on the security of the Omarska camp, weren't you the

 2    person on the shift that you worked on that would be called upon to

 3    resolve some problem with a less experienced guard?  Weren't you that

 4    person?

 5       A.   No.  They did not come to me.

 6            MR. SAXON:  I'd like the usher to please place Exhibit 167 back on

 7    the ELMO, please.  This is again the record of interview of the accused

 8    Dragoljub Prcac.  If the English version could be placed on the ELMO.

 9       Q.   Mr. Radic, if you could turn to page 70 of your version.  I've

10    marked it with a blue sticker for your convenience.  I'm sorry.  Page 70

11    of the English version, page 26 of the B/C/S version, Mr. Radic.  It has a

12    blue sticker on it.  Keep going.  There's a blue sticker.  No.  In the

13    next section, Mr. Radic.  In the next section, where the blue sticker is.

14       A.   Yes, I have it.

15       Q.   Okay.  On page 70 of the English version, page 26 of the B/C/S

16    version, Mr. Radic, do you see where the investigator asked Mr. Prcac:

17     "When there was a problem with one of the guards, would Krkan..."  Do you

18    see that line?  It's close to the sticker.  Do you see that?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   That question read like this:  "When there was a problem with one

21    of the guards, would Krkan or Krle or Ckalja ever go and attend to it?

22    Mr. Prcac's response:  "Yes, because there were instances, because there

23    were many guards who were reservists and they wouldn't know how to solve

24    certain problems, and then they would call on them.  Krkan was a

25    professional.  Ckalja was in the reserves for quite some time and, and

Page 11225

 1    Krle was fairly new as a reserve officer."

 2            According to Mr. Prcac, you were the person who was called upon to

 3    resolve issues with the less experienced guard.  Can you comment on that?

 4       A.   I can.  I never had a case of this kind where somebody came to me

 5    when they couldn't solve something, and I certainly didn't solve it,

 6    either by order, following orders, or any other way.

 7       Q.   The Trial Chamber has heard a great deal of evidence recently that

 8    you protected a group of prisoners from the town of Ljubija who were

 9    detained in the Omarska camp.  Most of this evidence came from witnesses

10    who came here to testify on your behalf.  According to Witness DC/7, a man

11    from Ljubija, who testified on the 12th of March here, you somehow got him

12    out of the "white house," where he was initially detained in the Omarska

13    camp, and eventually Witness DC/7 was placed in a room in the hangar

14    building.  Witness DC/7 told the Trial Chamber that after you learned

15    about his presence in Omarska, he was not mistreated, although he spent a

16    month in the camp, and that other people from Ljubija received similar

17    assistance from you.  This is at page 9021 to 9023 of the transcript.

18            If you spent your time in the Omarska camp, either in the duty

19    office, in the administration building, or in the circular window in the

20    administration building, and you were just one ordinary guard on a shift

21    of many guards, how were you able to achieve such dramatic levels of

22    protection for your friends from Ljubija who were confined inside the

23    hangar building?  Can you explain that?

24       A.   I can.  And I didn't only protect people from Ljubija, but --

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

Page 11226

 1            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have nothing against questions being

 2    asked, but using terms such as "dramatic levels" and so on, those are

 3    terms that can be used in closing arguments.  I have nothing against

 4    questions as such.  Thank you.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon.

 6            MR. SAXON:  I will withdraw the word "dramatic," Your Honour.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  I think that it is best to

 8    ask questions without using many adjectives or adverbs, quantifying things

 9    and so on and so forth.  So just ask your questions, clear questions,

10    concrete questions, and concise questions.

11            MR. SAXON:

12       Q.   How were you able to achieve that protection for your friends from

13    Ljubija who were inside the hangar building, as just one ordinary guard

14    who wasn't even in the hangar building?

15       A.   Not only did I protect people from Ljubija, but protection for

16    people from Kozarac and Prijedor as well.  And Mr. Mujacic [phoen] was

17    from Gornja Puharska, from Prijedor; Midhat Hodzic was from Kozarac; Kadir

18    Jakupovic and Mehmed Jakupovic and Mehmed's son were from Jakulic [phoen]

19    and Kamicani, and the others were from Ljubija.  And wherever I was able

20    to, as a human being, and to act as a human being, I did so, sometimes at

21    my own detriment and sometimes at the detriment of others.  What

22    I -- sometimes I asked somebody, "There's a man down there.  His son is on

23    the pista.  He's in the hangar or the 'white house.' Can they meet?"  So I

24    helped people overcome those difficult times.  So that was on the basis of

25    my humane qualities.  You can qualify it as you like, but I did it as a

Page 11227

 1    man, as a human being.  Wherever possible, I helped people.

 2       Q.   Witness DC/1, another man from Ljubija, testified that, "At the

 3    hangar, where we were, nobody was really beaten there."  Did you spend a

 4    lot of time regularly with these men from Ljubija, physically inside the

 5    hangar, so that your physical presence would protect them?

 6       A.   No, I did not spend time with them at all.  Sometimes when I

 7    brought them some food and gave them some food -- and for some of the

 8    things that happened to them, I heard here in Court for the first time

 9    when the witnesses testified, and I was surprised.  And if I had any

10    power, any authority, Your Honours, Mr. Saxon, if I gave somebody a bag of

11    bread to distribute amongst themselves, it was the first time here that I

12    heard that my colleague came and threw the bread out and didn't let them

13    take the bread.  And that if you tell -- people saying that, "If you tell

14    Krkan, you will be swallowed up by the night," that was something I heard

15    here for the first time.  And whether that happened behind my back, I

16    don't know.

17       Q.   I'm not sure if you understood my question or my questions.  Let

18    me try and say it as simply as I can.  Your former friends, your friends

19    from Ljubija, came here and testified that when they were in the hangar,

20    they were not beaten.  They said they were protected by Mladjo Radic.  How

21    were you able to engineer this if you were just one ordinary guard?  These

22    men were not beaten at a camp where beatings were going on all the time.

23       A.   I don't know how I managed to do that, to stop them being beaten,

24    nor do I know whether they were beaten or not.  I wasn't there to see it.

25    But if people say they were protected, then they were protected.  They

Page 11228

 1    were perhaps protected by a kind word from me, by saying, "Leave the

 2    people alone," or something like that.  And I said that not only there,

 3    but everywhere else, in the garage.  Mr. Musa Muserovic [phoen], who is

 4    the vice-president of the municipality now for five years in Prijedor, he

 5    knows very well what Mladjo Radic did for him, but he's keeping quiet.

 6    There he is in Prijedor, town -- mayor of the town, and he is keeping

 7    quiet.  He doesn't want to come here and say what Mladjo Radic did for

 8    him.

 9       Q.   When you said, "Leave the people alone," who did you say that to?

10       A.   Everybody.  My colleagues, the colleagues that had just put on a

11    uniform yesterday.  And when I said, "Don't behave like that," they would

12    say to me, "Your time is over.  You've been privileged for 20 years during

13    the period of Communism.  You're nobody now."  And he would say, "You're

14    cattle."  And Kvocka said Zeljko Meakic was asked for permission and he

15    would bring in permits and say, "I've got a permit.  Look, I've got a

16    permit."  That's what they would do.  They would come and wave the permit

17    in front of us, which means they could do whatever they liked.   They

18    would get a permit, wave it in our faces, and do what they liked.

19       Q.   Mr. Radic, when you said to the other guards on that shift that

20    you worked on, "Leave the people alone," particularly regarding the people

21    from Ljubija, did they leave the people alone?

22       A.   I did not say to anybody, "Leave people alone."  I asked them

23    nicely, as man to man, "Don't do what you're not there to do.  You're not

24    inspectors, you're not superiors of any kind.  Leave the people alone.

25    Let them rest.  And when they have to go to be interrogated, they will be

Page 11229

 1    interrogated."  That's what I said, as man to man.  What would you do if

 2    you were sitting there and the others were the other side?  I behaved as a

 3    human being.  It wasn't an order.  It was a gesture on my part, a humane

 4    gesture.  They're people; they're not animals; they're not cattle.  I

 5    would attend parties with them, see them around town, be at festivities

 6    with them, marriages, deaths.  And for 40 years I had nothing against the

 7    people from Ljubija, or the other people, so why should I have anything

 8    against them now?  I want everybody to be allowed to live in peace.

 9       Q.   When you made those kind requests to leave the people alone, were

10    the people left alone?  Yes or no?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   They weren't left alone?

13       A.   They didn't leave them alone.  If a guard was able to seize this

14    bag of bread and throw it away, then he didn't leave them alone and he

15    didn't listen.

16       Q.   So in other words, this testimony that we've heard from witnesses

17    from Ljubija about being protected by you, that was not correct?

18       A.   It is correct.  I did protect them.  I protected them to the best

19    of my ability; not everybody, but the people that I could protect, I did.

20    And if I could influence anybody and have them behave better, I did that.

21       Q.   Mr. Radic, isn't it obvious that you were able to protect your

22    friends from Ljubija because you were the leader of your guard shift and

23    the other guards at the Omarska camp obeyed your wishes not to mistreat

24    the people from Ljubija?  Isn't that true?

25       A.   No, that's not how it was, no.

Page 11230

 1       Q.   Well, if you had no special authority, then, did you have to

 2    provide this humanitarian assistance to prisoners secretly in order to

 3    protect yourself and your family?  Is that what you had to do?

 4       A.   Well, I did it more secretly than in public.  I would take a piece

 5    of bread hidden in my clothing and I would take it to them.  And I think

 6    that more people would come forward here to testify about my behaviour

 7    there, because not only did I take in bags of bread; I took in bags of

 8    carrots and apples and cucumbers from my own garden.  And I didn't give it

 9    to the same people every time, but I did expect more people to come

10    forward.  But thank you anyway to those who have come forward to testify

11    on my behalf, and to those who haven't as well.

12       Q.   Were you ever disciplined for providing this secret assistance?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Well, according to members of your family, you were providing this

15    assistance openly.  Your cousin, Ranko Radic, testified that on three

16    occasions he went to the Omarska camp when you were there in order to

17    bring a bag of food to friends of his who were detained there.  Ranko

18    Radic testified that the people at the front gate of the Omarska complex

19    knew both your cousin and you.  Ranko Radic testified that after he gave

20    the bag of food to his friends, he would chat with the prisoners for a

21    while.

22            Is it your testimony that this was secret assistance to the

23    prisoners?

24       A.   It was not a secret.  Ranko was well-known like me.  He brought

25    Ahmet Tatarevic and his son things, and Ahmet Tatarevic was the deputy

Page 11231













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Page 11232

 1    chief when I was there, and I would have helped that man even it was at my

 2    own expense.

 3       Q.   Your wife testified that, and I quote, "I think that there isn't a

 4    man in Omarska," and she was referring to the town of Omarska here, "who

 5    did not send something down there," referring to the Omarska camp.  This

 6    is at pages 9242 to 9243.

 7            If everyone in the town of Omarska was sending food to detainees

 8    in the Omarska camp, why would you need to provide assist secretly?

 9       A.   Well, people would give things.  There wasn't anybody who did not

10    have a Muslim friend.  For example, my neighbour, Kadir Jakupovic, he was

11    my neighbour.  He was 100 metres away, so I couldn't but give him bread if

12    his wife had sent it for him.

13            So everybody had his own man, his own Muslim, and they would send

14    in things whether through the guards or themselves, they would find a way

15    of sending things in.  And there was a witness here who testified, you

16    mentioned his name a moment ago, and he said that he had lost 16 kilos in

17    Omarska because he was fed by Maric's shift, whereas in two months here, I

18    lost 23 kilos.  So it was more difficult for me here than it was for him

19    down there because I lost 23 kilos in the two months that I spent here.

20       Q.   Thank you for sharing that information, Mr. Radic.  Moving on,

21    according to your direct testimony at page 1060, one day during the summer

22    of 1992, while she was detained at the Omarska camp, [redacted],

23    allegedly -- I'm not referring to your interview, Mr. Radic, I'm not

24    referring to your interview.  I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.  I'm referring

25    to your direct testimony here in this courtroom.  You said that [redacted]

Page 11233

 1    [redacted], "We have our guard who is more of a

 2    guardian to us, Mr. Krkan, and we do not have any problems whatsoever

 3    because he's there."  So is it your testimony that with respect to the

 4    female detainees in the Omarska camp, you were like a guardian to those

 5    women, that you protected them?

 6       A.   I protected everybody.  How far they felt themselves to be

 7    protected, I don't know.  Everybody was the same to me, and I did what I

 8    could.

 9       Q.   Would you agree then, that none of these women have any reason to

10    hold a grudge against you; would you agree with that?

11       A.   I would agree that they shouldn't have anything against me, not a

12    single one of them.

13       Q.   Well, let's discuss for a few minutes how you protected these

14    women.  Do you recall a Prosecution witness named Nadzija Fazlic?

15       A.   I remember, Nadzija Fazlic.

16       Q.   Nadzija Fazlic.  Thank you.  You knew Mrs. Fazlic from before the

17    war, didn't you?

18       A.   I've known her for 15 years.  We worked together in a firm.

19       Q.   You knew that Mrs. Fazlic's husband was detained at the camp,

20    didn't you?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Mrs. Fazlic testified that when she arrived at the Omarska camp on

23    23 July 1992, you called her into your office and told her, "I'm a shift

24    leader and I have to take down your personal details."  This is at page

25    5086 of the transcript.  Do you recall that testimony?

Page 11234

 1       A.   I do.

 2       Q.   Mrs. Fazlic testified that on that occasion, you counselled her as

 3    to how she should behave in the Omarska camp.  That she should avoid

 4    contact with certain female prisoners in the camp who were considered to

 5    be dangerous because they had been arrested with weapons, et cetera.

 6            Were you trying to protect Mrs. Fazlic at that moment?  Was her

 7    testimony accurate?

 8       A.   No.  I did not talk to Mrs. Fazlic, nor did I take down her

 9    particulars, nor did I say she should stay clear of certain female

10    prisoners.  I have known her for 15, 20 years, and when I saw her down

11    there, I was surprised to see her and I said, "Nadzija, if you need

12    anything, you can rely on me.  I will help you as far as I am able." I had

13    no other conversation with her, nor did I take down her particulars or

14    impart any other information.

15            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, may we go into private session for a few

16    minutes in order that I can ask some questions that relate to testimony

17    that was given in private session?

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let us move into private

19    session for a few moments.

20                          [Private session]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 11235













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Page 11236













13    Page 11236 redacted private session.













Page 11237













13    Page 11237 redacted private session.













Page 11238













13    Page 11238 redacted private session.













Page 11239

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16                          [Open session]

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session,

18    Mr. Saxon.  You may continue.

19            MR. SAXON:

20       Q.   Mr. Radic, you had power and opportunity in the Omarska camp that

21    you had never had before; isn't that correct?

22       A.   Special powers that I have never had before?  Is that what you

23    said?  No.  No.  That is not true.

24       Q.   Witness J testified that one evening you took her into the office

25    where you worked at the Omarska camp and that you attempted to rape her

Page 11240

 1    there.  During that incident, this is at page 4777 of the transcript, when

 2    Witness J told you that she was menstruating, you replied, "That's what

 3    each one of you tells me."

 4            You were referring, weren't you, to the fact that you raped or

 5    tried to rape many of the women detained at the Omarska camp; isn't that

 6    true?

 7       A.   No, it is not true.

 8       Q.   You were a bull at the Omarska camp, were you not?

 9       A.   According to your indictment, it turns out I was a reproduction

10    bull in your indictment, Mr. Saxon, that I did nothing else except jumping

11    from one woman to another.  And to do that, to Madam J, or whatever you

12    called her in the office, and you heard that this was an open-door office

13    that people could come in and walk in whenever they liked, and that I

14    would touch her and take her pants off, I do apologise.  In those days, to

15    have sex, I would need to have normal human relations with a woman.  I am

16    a human being.  I am not a bull.

17       Q.   During 1992, outside of the Omarska camp, did you ever attempt to

18    make sexual advances towards Muslim women in the town of Prijedor whose

19    husbands had disappeared or been sent to one of the detention camps?

20       A.   No, I don't think so.  Not even in normal circumstances.  I

21    couldn't walk around.  I was very busy.  I had work to do.  I don't know

22    what you're referring to.

23       Q.   At this time, I would like to show the second part of our video

24    excerpt from Exhibit 3/219, if I may.

25                          [Videotape played]

Page 11241













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14  and the English transcripts












Page 11242

 1                MR. SAXON:  Thank you very much.

 2       Q.   Mr. Radic, where were the women that day, the five women who were

 3    still at the Omarska camp, the five female detainees?

 4       A.   I don't know.  Perhaps this gentleman here could tell you, who is

 5    explaining what it is, whether it is a centre or a camp or accommodation.

 6    He could probably tell you where they were.

 7       Q.   Well, you were present that day.  If you were protecting these

 8    women, why don't you know where they were?  This was a group of five

 9    female detainees.  Can you explain that?

10       A.   Mr. Saxon, I was at my guard post in the tower, and how do I know

11    where they went?  I don't even know where they went from the restaurant.

12    I didn't follow them.  I was at my work post.  How could I know where they

13    are?  Who was asking me where they would go and what would happen to them?

14    How could I know that?

15       Q.   Did you see the five female detainees sent out of the restaurant

16    on that day?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Witness B and Witness AT testified that the female detainees were

19    hidden that day in a small room in the Separacija building.  Why would the

20    women be sent to the Separacija building on the day that the foreign

21    journalists arrived at the Omarska camp, if you know?

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

23            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I don't know how many times Radic has

24    said that he doesn't know when the journalists came, that he doesn't know

25    how many women there were when they came, because he doesn't know when

Page 11243

 1    they came, nor does he know where they were.  I really don't know where

 2    these questions are leading.  The witness has said he doesn't know where

 3    they are nor what day is in question.

 4            MR. SAXON:  I'll move on, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But you're not coming back to

 6    that question.

 7            MR. SAXON:  No, Your Honour.

 8            If we could have Exhibit 3/236 placed on the ELMO, please, which

 9    is a photograph, again taken in January of this year at the Omarska mine.

10    It's a photograph taken from the inside of the restaurant building.  It

11    needs to be distributed to the registrar, to the Judges, please.  Thank

12    you.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, perhaps after this

14    photograph we could have the break.

15            MR. SAXON:  Very well, Your Honour.  Thank you.

16       Q.   Mr. Radic, if you could take a look at this photograph, please.

17            MR. SAXON:  And perhaps I could ask my colleague in the technical

18    booth to zoom in just a little bit.  That's it.  Right there.

19       Q.   Mr. Radic, this is a photograph taken of the inside of the

20    restaurant building.  Can you see there's a large number of windows on the

21    right-hand side?

22            MR. SAXON:  I'm wondering if we could bring the lights down a

23    little bit, please.

24       Q.   Mr. Radic, can you see what looks to be a building outside the

25    window on the right-hand side?  Can you see that?

Page 11244

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   We see a part of a building, a roof, and some windows.  That was

 3    the "white house" visible, isn't it?  That's the building known as the

 4    "white house"?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6            MR. SAXON:  Thank you.  If we could remove that photograph now,

 7    please.

 8            Your Honour, if this would be a convenient time, it would be

 9    convenient for the Prosecution as well.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  We're going to have our

11    lunch break now for 50 minutes.

12                          --- Recess taken at 12.49 p.m.

13                          --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

15            You may be seated, Mr. Radic.

16            THE ACCUSED RADIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic, I heard that

18    there was a problem with the health of Mr. Prcac.

19            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Mr. Prcac is not

20    feeling too well.  He has a bad headache.  He's losing his sight.  And we

21    spoke to one another.  He would like to continue.  If it gets worse, he

22    would like to be excused, but for the moment, we can continue.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can we have Mr. Prcac present

24    during the week?

25            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, he will be

Page 11245

 1    present.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Because if not, perhaps he needs

 3    a rest.  I don't know.  But anyway, we'll see whether Mr. Prcac will be

 4    able to stay or not.  He should tell us immediately if he feels unwell.

 5    So thank you, Mr. Jovan Simic.

 6            Mr. Saxon, let us continue, please.  You have the floor.

 7            MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  At this time I'd like to ask

 8    the Trial Chamber's indulgence to go into private session for a few

 9    moments to discuss some documents that need to be dealt with in private

10    session.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  Let us go into private

12    session for a few minutes.

13                          [Private session]

14     [redacted]

15     [redacted]

16     [redacted]

17     [redacted]

18     [redacted]

19     [redacted]

20     [redacted]

21     [redacted]

22     [redacted]

23     [redacted]

24     [redacted]

25     [redacted]

Page 11246













13   Pages 11246-11255 redacted private session.













Page 11256

 1                          [Open session]

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session.

 3            Mr. Fila.

 4            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] What I want to say is that with the

 5    final question, Mr. Saxon has cleared up the difference between shift

 6    leader or commander and the razvodnik straze.  That's what I wanted to

 7    hear, so I won't be asking questions about that.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Continue, Mr. Saxon.

 9            MR. SAXON:

10       Q.   Before, when we should have been in public session, I asked you

11    whether there was any guard leaders or shift commanders at the Omarska

12    camp and your testimony was that, no, there were not.  And then I asked

13    you if you knew a man who worked as a guard at Omarska by the name of

14    Dusan Jokic and you said that you did.  My next question is:  Did

15    Mr. Jokic work on the same guard shift as you or on another guard shift?

16       A.   I think he was in another guard shift.

17       Q.   Do you know what Mr. Jokic's profession is?

18       A.   I do.  He was a private butcher.

19            MR. SAXON:  If I could ask the usher's assistance one more time,

20    please, to distribute the Prosecution's Exhibit 3/276 which will be marked

21    for identification only.  It is an ICTY statement of Mr. Dusan Jokic that

22    was provided to the Office of the Prosecutor by the defence of the

23    accused, Mr. Kos, and we have an English translation as well as the B/C/S

24    original.

25            If the English version could be placed on the ELMO, please, and

Page 11257

 1    Mr. Radic be shown the B/C/S version.  Mr. Usher, if you could turn to the

 2    English version of the witness statement here and place it on the ELMO,

 3    please.

 4       Q.   Mr. Radic, if you could take a look at the statement that is in

 5    your language and take a look at the second paragraph that begins, "In the

 6    morning."  Do you see the second paragraph that begins there, "In the

 7    morning ..."?

 8       A.   Yes, I see that, yes.

 9       Q.   It says, "In the morning, we reserve policemen who had gathered in

10    front of the Omarska police station were transported in a van to the

11    investigation centre, and when I arrived there I saw many people whom I

12    knew because many of them were my customers at my butcher's shop in

13    Omarska.  I was assigned to a guard post according to a plan for the

14    deployment of guards.  I know that Krle, who was also a reserve policeman,

15    was the shift leader, but I do not know who appointed him shift leader,

16    but I presume it was someone from the Omarska police station; its

17    commander."

18            The next paragraph reads, "I do not know exactly what he did or

19    what his duties were because during my shift I saw him tour the guard

20    posts, and I know that his guard post was upstairs in the administration

21    building, where I never went."

22            Mr. Radic, can you comment as to why Dusan Jokic's memory about

23    the presence of guard shift leaders at the Omarska camp is so different

24    from yours?  Can you explain that?

25       A.   Well, why he remembers differently from us, I cannot explain.  But

Page 11258

 1    what I can say is, about this man, that it is his place to sit here where

 2    I am because if not every shift, then every other shift, Mr. Jokic left,

 3    went home, worked in his butcher's shop, and left his guard post empty.

 4    And the testimony of Mr. Paulic here, that he was left alone when the

 5    incident with Mr. Nasic occurred.  Had the gentleman been there, then the

 6    Nasic case would never have happened, incident would never have happened.

 7            And I am sure that he is washing his hands of that and shifting

 8    the responsibility and blame to somebody else because Mr. Jokic made

 9    sandwiches and sold them.

10       Q.   I just want to make sure that I understand your testimony.  What

11    you're saying is every other shift, Mr. Jokic would simply not show up or

12    not remain at the Omarska camp; he would go home and go back to work at

13    his private shop?  Is that what you're saying?

14       A.   Yes, that was the story that went around, that he would leave his

15    post and go away.  And when Paulic shot Mr. Nasic, had Mr. Jokic been

16    there 10 metres away from him, that never would have happened.  Because if

17    two people are there with a rifle in their hands, people behave

18    differently than when only see one person.

19       Q.   I was just wondering when Mr. Jokic would do this, when he would

20    not show up for his guard shift duty, when he would leave and go home and

21    work at his butcher shop, was he ever swallowed up by darkness?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Thank you.

24            Can you tell me, please, what role did Miroslav Kvocka have in the

25    Omarska camp during late May and June 1992?

Page 11259

 1       A.   The same thing I did.

 2       Q.   Did you know a man who worked as a guard at the Omarska camp named

 3    Milenko Romanic also known as Zelja?

 4       A.   Yes, I did.

 5       Q.   Did you know Milenko Romanic is a postman by profession, isn't

 6    he?

 7       A.   Yes, he is.  I don't know if he still is though.

 8       Q.   Would you describe Milenko Romanic as an honest and reliable

 9    person?

10       A.   No, I wouldn't.  I would describe him as an honorable man, but

11    then I would say that he was a psychiatric case because he was treated at

12    the psychiatric department and he's not normal.

13       Q.   Mr. Radic, are you aware that Mr. Romanic presented a formal

14    statement to this Trial Chamber on your behalf and it's been admitted into

15    evidence?  Were you aware of that?

16       A.   No, I'm not aware of that, and somebody like that shouldn't do

17    that on my behalf, because he's not -- he's ill.

18       Q.   Well, I'd like to show you anyway what Mr. Romanic wrote on your

19    behalf.

20            MR. SAXON:  Could we please distribute the Exhibit 3/230.  It has

21    been marked in this way only for purposes of identification.  It has

22    already been admitted into evidence.

23            I apologise.  This is an ICTY statement of Milenko Romanic that

24    was, I believe, provided to the accused, Kos, who we received this

25    statement from, so it has not been admitted into evidence yet, this

Page 11260

 1    particular exhibit, and we will be tendering it.  No, we will not be

 2    tendering it because of the Rules of this Trial Chamber as regards to

 3    prior witness statements.  I will use it only for the purposes of

 4    impeachment.

 5            Mr. Usher, if we could turn the page of the English version,

 6    please, so that the English version is readable on the ELMO, and if

 7    Mr. Radic could be provided with the B/C/S version.

 8       Q.   At the first paragraph, you'll see that Mr. Romanic says the

 9    following, "So when the investigation centre in the Omarska Mine Centre

10    was introduced, I was mobilised and I came to the militia station in

11    Omarska where the commander of the militia station, Zeljko Meakic, said

12    that we should go to the mine and guard the people there since they took

13    part in the war.  The members of the reserve police were taken to the mine

14    by a Kombi and I went there.  This was my first visit there, during the

15    day, but I cannot exactly tell the time.  Kvocka showed me my guarding

16    place, since the shifts for the guards were already made earlier.  My

17    guarding place was in front of the headquarter building, and together with

18    me, there were Ritan, Rade, Jokic Dusan, the butcher, Rosic, Milojica, and

19    Janjic Nenad.  Krle was also at the beginning with us since he also

20    belonged to police reserve, and after some time, Kvocka appointed him as

21    his assistant.  He had no function.  His only duty different from ours was

22    to arrange the guards in the absence of Kvocka, although this was not

23    necessary, because we all knew which were our guarding places."

24            Then the next paragraph says the following:

25            "Compared with me and the other guards from the shift, he had no

Page 11261













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Page 11262

 1    superiority," referring to Krle.  "The orders could be given only by

 2    Kvocka and later Meakic, when he became the commander of the investigation

 3    centre."

 4            Mr. Romanic's perception of the role played by Miroslav Kvocka at

 5    the Omarska camp was very different from yours, wasn't it?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7            MR. SAXON:  If we could remove that statement, please, now.  Thank

 8    you.  If we could please distribute and place on the ELMO Exhibit 3/235.

 9       Q.   This is a photograph, still photograph, taken from the video

10    excerpt that we have previously played here in the Trial Chamber, and I

11    just have a question about these men that we see in line there,

12    Mr. Radic.  They all have their mouths closed.  Do you know why the men in

13    the video that we saw earlier were not speaking that day?  Do you have any

14    suggestion as to why not?

15       A.   How do I know why they weren't -- I don't know why they would have

16    laughed.  Why would they laugh?

17            MR. SAXON:  Can we see Exhibit 3/232 and 3/233, please.

18       Q.   Mr. Radic --

19            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Mr. Saxon.

20            MR. SAXON:

21       Q.   Mr. Radic, first if you could take a look, please, at Exhibit

22    3/233, the photograph that you have in your hands right now, and if that

23    photograph could be placed on the ELMO.  It's just a picture really of a

24    single person.  Would you agree with me that that person in this

25    photograph looks pretty thin?

Page 11263

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Do you recall if you asked this person that day whether he needed

 3    anything?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Can you look at the next photograph, which is 3 --

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.  Just one moment.

 7            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what day are we -- is

 8    being referred to?  Radic said several times that he wasn't there, and

 9    Mr. Saxon is persistently trying to ask him on that day whether -- he

10    asked him whether he saw him.  What day?

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, your response.

12            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, Mr. Radic appears in the video that was

13    shown earlier in this courtroom.  These men also appear in the video.  As

14    I've explained, these are still photographs from the video, and I simply

15    want to ask him if he spoke to these men during that time.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Continue, please.

17            Mr. Fila.

18            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in answer to a question

19    by Mr. Saxon, Mr. Radic said that he was upstairs in the tower, and he can

20    be seen indeed in the tower.  And he said that he didn't go downstairs and

21    that he wasn't in the restaurant.  I don't know what day that was.  But

22    this is a video -- I don't know of any video when these men and Mr. Radic

23    can be seen together.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, what Mr. Saxon has

25    said is that he's going to ask the witness whether he saw this person that

Page 11264

 1    day.  That is what I understood that Mr. Saxon was asking.

 2            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No.  Whether he asked that person

 3    whether he needed anything.  That means that he must have seen him, talked

 4    to him, and so on.  Mr. Saxon asked the witness -- you understand now?

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I see.

 6            MR. SAXON:  I will rephrase my question, Your Honour.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Because you said you were going

 8    to ask whether the witness saw him, but in fact you asked him whether the

 9    witness has asked this person anything, so you have to ask him first

10    whether he saw this person.

11            MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12            With that photograph -- Mr. Usher, I think we have some confusion

13    here.

14       Q.   Let's look at the photograph that is 3/233, the photograph that

15    you have in your hand right now.  If you recall, did you see that man

16    entering the restaurant that day?

17       A.   He may have entered, but I don't know him.

18       Q.   All right.  Can you take a look at the next photograph, and can we

19    place 3/232 on the ELMO.  Can you recall, Mr. Radic, if you saw this man

20    that day, the day the journalists arrived?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

23       A.   May I try and assist you, Mr. Saxon?

24       Q.   No.  I want to move on now.  Thank you.

25       A.   I know this person, this one.

Page 11265

 1       Q.   All right.

 2       A.   This is Josip Juric, called Josipa, from Ljubija, a good friend of

 3    mine, and I know him.  And I recognise an older man called Jerko Pavlovic,

 4    and these others I don't know.  I know this man here.

 5       Q.   Thank you very much for clarifying that.

 6       A.   I did see him.

 7       Q.   You remarked before that Mr. Kvocka had the same responsibilities

 8    and duties as yourself, and I'm wondering if we could please turn to

 9    Exhibit 3/215, the record of interview with Mr. Prcac -- Mr. Radic.  I

10    apologise.

11            MR. SAXON:  And if those following along in English could turn to

12    page 174, turn to page 175.

13       Q.   And Mr. Radic, if you could turn to the bottom of page 174,

14    please.  Are you at the bottom of page 174?

15       A.   Just a moment, please.  Yes, I am.

16       Q.   You'll see there a question from Mr. Inayat beginning with:

17    "During the time that you spent in the police room ..."  Do you see that?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Mr. Inayat asked you:  "During the time that you spent in the

20    police room, did you ever receive a call on telephone from the guard at

21    the entrance gate indicating that people were trying to enter the camp and

22    that he wanted assistance?"  Your response:  "Yes, and it was Kvocka went

23    to the gate.  There was some drunken people there and he went to sort it

24    out.  And I know certainly that Zeljko also went at least once."  And

25    Mr. Inayat asked you:  "Can you tell us on how many occasions you received

Page 11266

 1    such calls on telephone from the main gate?"  Your response:  "Twice.

 2    Once it was Kvocka who went to intervene and the second time it was

 3    Meakic.  I received the call and I informed them.  I said, 'There were

 4    some people, there is a guard asking for help there, and there were some,

 5    some people who were drunk and who should not be let into the camp.'"

 6            If you and Mr. Kvocka shared the same duties and responsibilities,

 7    why did you have to inform Mr. Kvocka or Mr. Meakic that there was someone

 8    trying to get into the camp who did not belong there?

 9       A.   Because I was on duty at the telephone and I was called by the

10    guard at the entrance.  If Kvocka had happened to be on duty by the phone

11    and a guard called him, I would have gone to the gate or somebody with

12    me.  There was no rule as to who would go where; just who happened to be

13    there would go and see what was happening.  We were working together.

14       Q.   Well, why did you inform Mr. Meakic?

15       A.   I informed him because he was my commander.  Maybe he would deal

16    with it better than anyone else.

17       Q.   And why did you inform Mr. Kvocka on the other occasion?

18       A.   Because he happened to be there.  If it hadn't been him, it would

19    have been someone else who happened to be there.  Maybe it would have been

20    Prcac or -- I don't know.  Maybe I would have gone.

21       Q.   Did Mr. Meakic and Mr. Kvocka alternate their shifts?

22       A.   Well, at the beginning they didn't.  Later on they did.  But

23    sometimes they would be together, both of them, all day long.  This was

24    nothing really official or formal as to who would come when.

25       Q.   Well, if Mr. Kvocka had the same duties as you, why was it

Page 11267

 1    necessary for Mr. Kvocka and Mr. Meakic to alternate the shifts that they

 2    were on duty?

 3       A.   I didn't say they alternated.  Sometimes both of them would be

 4    there all day long.  Me too; I would be in my shift as well.  There was no

 5    special rule about that.  But in my interview I said that Meakic was on

 6    duty day and night.  Ninety-eight per cent, a hundred per cent, he would

 7    sleep there, the man would.

 8       Q.   You say that you heard that Fikret Harambasic was brought to the

 9    Omarska camp and was put in the "white house."  Did you also hear that a

10    man named Becir Medunjanin, a member of the SDA from Kozarac, was brought

11    to Omarska in June 1992 and placed in the "white house"?  Did you hear

12    about that?

13       A.   I heard that he was arrested.  I didn't know where and I didn't

14    know Becir Medunjanin as an individual.  I never met him, nor did I see

15    him, nor do I know him, nor do I know when he was brought in.

16       Q.   Well, Witness DD/10 testified here recently that Becir Medunjanin

17    was brought in, was beaten, interrogated, and then succumbed to the

18    beatings that he received at the Omarska camp.  This is at page 10663 of

19    the transcript.  Did you hear about the death of Becir Medunjanin?

20       A.   [No interpretation].

21            MR. SAXON:  I heard the B/C/S response but I did not hear an

22    interpretation.

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Thank you.  Well, is it your testimony then that although the

25    Witness DD/10 who was a mere typist was aware of the death of Becir

Page 11268

 1    Medunjanin, and you were a professional policeman who worked often in the

 2    same office as Witness DD/10, and you were assigned to work in the

 3    security of that camp, you knew nothing about this death?  Is that your

 4    testimony?

 5       A.   Yes.  I didn't know anything about it.  Nobody gave me any

 6    reports, and the lady who testified said that she heard a conversation

 7    between two persons who said that two people had died from the "white

 8    house."  This lady worked there all day, and I worked every third day.  So

 9    she may have heard it before me or ...

10       Q.   Yes.  And the lady who testified, as you put it, said that this

11    man, Becir Medunjanin, was beaten for several days straight in the

12    interrogation room close to where you were working in the duty office.

13    Are you saying you were not aware of what was going on with Becir

14    Medunjanin; is that your testimony?

15       A.   I was not aware, and that is quite sure, what was happening, nor

16    that he was beaten, nor when, nor who interrogated him.

17       Q.   According to Witness DD/10, one of the reasons that Becir

18    Medunjanin was beaten was because Mr. Medunjanin was associated with

19    Muhamed Cehajic who Witness DD/10 described as, "The key Muslim man in

20    Prijedor and also very active in the SDA."  Did you also hear that Muhamed

21    Cehajic was detained at the Omarska camp?

22       A.   I did, but I didn't know him.

23       Q.   What happened to Mr. Cehajic?

24       A.   I don't know the man so I don't know where he was or what happened

25    to him.

Page 11269

 1       Q.   Did you also hear that a man called Slavko Ecimovic, a leader of

 2    the attack on Prijedor on 30 May 1992 was brought to Omarska in June 1992

 3    and put in the "white house," did you hear about that?

 4       A.   No.  But I do know that the story was that he was brought in but I

 5    don't know where.  I didn't know him at all.

 6       Q.   Do you know what happened to Mr. Ecimovic, what is the story what

 7    happened to him?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   Well, how about your kum, Ibrahim Denic?  What, if anything, did

10    you hear about what happened to him, Ibrahim Denic, your kum?

11       A.   No.  His brother-in-law was in the Omarska investigation centre.

12    I would see him there throughout, and I inquired and he couldn't tell me

13    what happened to him.  And to this day I don't know what happened to him.

14    And I would like to learn, because we were kums, and I would like to know

15    what happened to him.

16       Q.   Last summer a man named (redacted) testified that he was

17    transferred from Keraterm to Omarska on the 9th of July 1992.  This is at

18    pages 4648 to 4664 of the transcript.  (redacted) testified that when his

19    bus arrived in Omarska, you boarded the bus, and with a cynical smile on

20    your face, told the prisoners, "Well, it's not every day that you can

21    arrive at Omarska."  Do you recall making that statement?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   (redacted) describes how he and the other prisoners were forced to

24    run a gauntlet of guards to the "white house" where the prisoners were

25    beaten by guards until you arrived and stopped the beating.  You had the

Page 11270

 1    authority then, didn't you, to control the conduct of the guards on your

 2    shift?

 3       A.   No, that is not true.

 4       Q.   According to (redacted), after the group, after his group of

 5    prisoners was -- were interrogated, they were brought back to the "white

 6    house" where you ordered the prisoners to write their names on a piece of

 7    paper along with the amount of money and valuables they had in their

 8    possession and you told the prisoners, "And if you have enough, you'll be

 9    spared torture."  This is at page 4652 of the transcript.

10            Wasn't it a common practice at the Omarska camp forcing prisoners

11    to hand over their valuables in exchange for preferable treatment?

12       A.   That is not true.  All the detainees who testified here said they

13    were searched upon arrest, then searched when the military arrived, then

14    searched when they arrived at Keraterm, then searched when they arrived at

15    Omarska.  So I'm wondering how much money could they have had on them when

16    after all of that, we could have searched them and beaten them and got the

17    money off them.  That is not true.  I don't know that man at all.

18       Q.   That brings me to my next question.  Thank you for that.  That

19   group of men that was brought to Omarska on 9th July, (redacted) was one of

20    them, had already passed through the Keraterm camp so they had no

21    valuables to turn over to you; isn't that correct?

22       A.   If they had been searched at 10 different places, how could they

23    have carried so many valuables?  They were searched in all those places,

24    their pockets emptied, everything seized from them, and then suddenly in

25    Omarska they appear with a kilo of gold.  Where could they have hidden it

Page 11271













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Page 11272

 1    to be able to give it to me then?

 2       Q.   Mr. Radic, Hase Icic --

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, I'm sorry for

 4    interrupting you, I really am sorry, but I should like to know what is

 5    your perception of the time regarding your cross-examination just now?

 6    How much more time do you need?

 7            MR. SAXON:  My perception of the time is that I have five more

 8    minutes, and I was simply planning on taking five more minutes of -- my

 9    perception is that I have -- I will complete my three hours in five more

10    minutes.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  Continue, please.  Thank

12    you.

13            MR. SAXON:

14       Q.   (redacted) told the Trial Chamber that you took that list of names

15    and read the names out one by one, and every man on that list was brutally

16    beaten that evening in the "white house."  Is it your testimony that this

17    did not happen?

18       A.   It did not happen for sure.

19      Q.   Well, (redacted) specifically recalled you pushing him along in the

20    hallway of the white house and saying, "What are you waiting for?" when it

21    was his turn to be beaten.  This is at page 4661 of the transcript.

22            Would you agree that a person who suffers such a terrible

23    experience would probably remember those events pretty well?

24       A.   I wouldn't agree with you.  I watched (redacted) interview on

25    German television, and he never mentioned a word of what he said there and

Page 11273

 1    he said how there was a tree trunk where Serbo-Chetniks cut the Muslims up

 2    into the smallest pieces around which flies gathered, and he never said a

 3    word about this.  Hase Icic is lying.  I'm claiming with full

 4    responsibility.  I'll tell the whole world and this Court that he is

 5    lying.

 6    [redacted]

 7    [redacted]

 8    [redacted]

 9    [redacted]

10    [redacted]

11    [redacted]

12    [redacted]

13    [redacted]

14            Three of those women:  Mugbila Becirovic, Velida Mahmuljin, and

15    Hajra Hadzic, have not been seen since 23 August 1992.  Can you tell us

16    what happened to those three women, please?

17       A.   I know that this person testified, but she said that Zeljko Meakic

18    told her that, not that I said.  Because I never said anything, nor did

19    they ask me anything.  I don't know what page you are reading this from.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, I think we have a

21    protection problem here because you mentioned a whole series of names.

22            MR. SAXON:  I mentioned a name, but -- I mentioned a pseudonym

23    regarding her testimony, but her testimony was given in open session, Your

24    Honour, this bit of her testimony.

25    [redacted]

Page 11274

 1    [redacted]

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  There's no problem then.

 3    You may continue.

 4            MR. SAXON:

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10            Now my question for you is:  Please tell us what happened to

11    Velida Mahmuljin, Hajra Hadzic, and Mugbila Becirovic; can you tell us,

12    please.

13       A.   I cannot, but that woman didn't ask me, nor did I talk to her

14    about any groups, nor was I there when 30 women went to Trnopolje, nor was

15    I there when these five went to Manjaca, nor was I there when the centre

16    was dismantled on the 8th of August, nor was I there when it was disbanded

17    on the 12th and the 13th of August.  It just happens by coincidence I was

18    not there when this disbanding took place.

19            And never, Mr. Saxon, Your Honours, did I accompany a man from

20    Keraterm to Trnopolje, from Trnopolje to Omarska, and from Omarska to

21    Manjaca.  I never entered any one of those camps except Omarska, and I

22    never escorted any single bus, nor did I release anyone, nor beat anyone,

23    nor rape anyone.  I'll try to be -- I wanted to be a decent man, to

24    protect myself and my family, and nobody bothered me.  And I'm sorry that

25    all of this has happened and that I am sitting here instead of somebody

Page 11275

 1    much higher than me who could have been here.  Those who really should be

 2    tried should be those who tore Yugoslavia apart rather than us.

 3            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I have no further questions at this time,

 4    thank you.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.

 6            Mr. Fila, you have some additional questions?

 7            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Could Mr. Saxon please tell me the page

 8    of the transcript for Witness AT?  If he could assist me, please, I would

 9    be very grateful.

10            MR. SAXON:  6101.

11            MR. FILA:  [Interpretation] In my re-examination I only have a few

12    questions, so I shall be brief.

13                          Re-examined by Mr. Fila:

14       Q.   Mr. Radic, the Prosecution has shown you two statements with the

15    date wrong.  One is the 18th of March.  In one you talk about razvodnik

16    straze.  You said that the first statement was dictated to you by Tadic.

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 11276

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We'll see, but I think -- I'm

11    not quite sure, but I think, Mr. Saxon, and I want to know, I think we

12    examined both documents in private session, did we?

13            MR. SAXON:  That is correct, Your Honour, and we would recommend

14    that the reference to this third document be redacted from the record and

15    any questions that Mr. Fila has regarding it simply be asked in private

16    session.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You see, Mr. Fila, we have to go

18    into private session to deal with this document.

19            So we are going into private session for Mr. Fila to be able to

20    put his questions, and we must redact from the public transcript reference

21    to the document.

22                          [Private session]

23   [redacted]

24   [redacted]

25   [redacted]        

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22  [redacted]

23                          [Open session]

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in public session.  We

25    cannot complete the cross-examination of the accused Mr. Radic today, so

Page 11281

 1    officially we will not close the re-examination, so that the parties can

 2    regulate the matter of documents.  As I said, we cannot prolong work after

 3    3.00, although it's already 5 past 3.00, and I apologise that we didn't

 4    finish today.  We will have to continue tomorrow.  As I said, officially

 5    the re-examination by Mr. Fila is not completed and the parties will have

 6    to come to an agreement regarding the tendering of these documents.  If

 7    there is no agreement, a decision will be rendered as always.  I now have

 8    to adjourn.

 9            Mr. Saxon, do you have anything else now?  But very quickly.

10            MR. SAXON:  Yes.  Very quickly, Your Honour.  We believe that

11    there are some copies of 3/226 that we need to retrieve back from the

12    Defence, possibly including from the accused Zigic, because some documents

13    were passed back and forth between counsel and the Defence, and we just

14    need to make sure that we get these copies that are still the subject of

15    some protective orders back.  It would be the copies of 3/226 --

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think the parties are aware of

17    this decision of the President of the Tribunal.  Can we speed things up?

18    I said that we can't go on working after 3.00.

19            Yes, Mr. Fila.

20            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I have a procedural

21    question.  As Mr. Radic is under oath, as Defence counsel, can we visit

22    him this afternoon or not?  I don't know what the established practice is.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that we have decided

24    that you cannot.  After the taking of the oath and before completion, we

25    have decided no, except under exceptional circumstances, which I think is

Page 11282

 1    not the case, Mr. Fila.

 2            Ms. Krystal, has the matter of documents been regulated?  We have

 3    to close.  We have to adjourn.

 4            Okay.  Tomorrow we will resume at 9.20 to continue the

 5    re-examination of Mr. Radic.  And here is my copy too.  Until tomorrow at

 6    9.20.  The hearing is adjourned.

 7                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.10 p.m.,

 8                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of May,

 9                          2001, at 9.20 a.m.