1 Friday, 11 May 2001
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.23 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, you may be
6 seated. Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Good morning to the technical
7 booth, the interpreters. Good morning to the Registry, counsel for the
8 Prosecution, for the Defence. Good morning to the public who is again
9 with us.
10 We will be continuing the hearing in this case. Yesterday, there
11 was a slight doubt as to whether we were going to have one witness or
13 Who are we going to hear today, Mr. Simic?
14 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, I hope
15 that today we will be able to hear four witnesses. Mr. Djukanovic has
16 arrived. He will be third witness on schedule and after that, we plan to
17 question one additional witness, Dr. Slobodan Gajic, and thereby complete
18 four testimonies today.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the order has been slightly
20 modified, am I right?
21 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Djukanovic was
22 supposed to testify third in the line and he will, indeed, testify third.
23 It's just that we have speeded things up a little bit. The witness who
24 was supposed to be heard on the following day, that is on Monday, will
25 actually be heard today as the fourth witness, Slobodan Gajic, that is.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then, thank you.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Slobodan Gajic
4 [sic], can you hear me? Will you please read the solemn declaration that
5 the usher is giving to you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated now.
9 Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.
10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Is it Mr. Slobodan Gajic? No.
11 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, there has been a mistake, Your
12 Honour. This witness is Mr. Dragan Velaula.
13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much,
15 Mr. Waidyaratne.
16 Mr. Velaula, Dragan Velaula, thank you very much for coming here
17 to testify.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will first now answer
20 questions that will be put to you by Mr. Jovan Simic and after that, we
21 will see what the order is going to be. For the time being, it is the
22 turn of Mr. Jovan Simic.
23 Mr. Simic, your witness.
24 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
25 WITNESS: DRAGAN VELAULA
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Examined by Mr. J. Simic:
3 Q. For the record, sir, would you please state your full name.
4 A. My name is Dragan Velaula.
5 Q. I would like to ask you to speak slowly for the benefit of the
6 interpreters. Where and when were you born?
7 A. I was born on the 5th of January 1960 in Petrov Gaj.
8 Q. Are you married? Do you have any children?
9 A. Yes, I am married and I have two children.
10 Q. Where do you currently reside?
11 A. In Omarska.
12 Q. What are you by occupation?
13 A. I am a waiter.
14 Q. In 1992 in the area of Prijedor municipality, so that is the
15 period of time that I have in mind, where were you prior to the eruption
16 of the conflict, the takeover of power?
17 A. I was in Berlin, in Germany.
18 Q. When did you come from Berlin?
19 A. On the 29th of May.
20 Q. What was the reason of your arrival?
21 A. My tourist visa had expired. I had a three-month visa which had
22 expired by that time.
23 Q. Were you mobilised? And if so, when?
24 A. I was mobilised as early as the 1st of June.
25 Q. What kind of assignment did you get?
1 A. I was mobilised with the infantry forces. I was assigned to the
2 Crisis Staff in Omarska, to do my guard duty there.
3 Q. Where was the Crisis Staff located?
4 A. In the centre of Omarska.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the last part of the
7 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Could you tell us who else was a member of the Crisis Staff at
9 that time?
10 A. I remember Milan Andzic and Ilija Lazic and some other people who
11 were there as well, who were not locals.
12 Q. Did you have the same assignment throughout the war? Were you
13 transferred anywhere else? And would you please pause a little before you
14 proceed with your answer? Please, go ahead.
15 A. Since I'm a waiter, I was transferred to the separation plant, to
16 help with the kitchen work there.
17 Q. Of course you know what separation is, but could you explain it a
18 little bit to the court? And please wait until I finish my question. Was
19 it located in the Ljubija mine?
20 A. Yes, it was actually located in the Omarska mine, it was part of
21 that mine.
22 Q. Separacija or the separation plant, what was there?
23 A. That is where they had their management and the main kitchen.
24 Q. What kind of management do you have in mind?
25 A. The mine management, the mine administration.
1 Q. What did you do there?
2 A. I was helping in the kitchen, mincing onions, peeling potatoes,
3 things like that.
4 Q. Who else was working with you at the separation?
5 A. There were a lot of women there but there were some men as well,
6 some butchers, cooks and others.
7 Q. Could you give us any names, please?
8 A. Drago Vuceta was the butcher. Zoran Vuceta worked there as well.
9 Seva also. Then there was Novo Ratkovic, Bajo Beric. And Pero Rendic was
10 the chief of the kitchen.
11 Q. Do you know Drasko Dzervad by any chance?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Did he work there by any chance as well?
14 A. Yes, he did.
15 Q. Were there any women there?
16 A. There were some lady cooks, yes, and other women as well.
17 Q. For how long did you work in the separation?
18 A. Until the 25th of June, thereabouts, and then I was transferred to
19 the investigation centre.
20 Q. The 26th -- the 25th of what? Could you tell us the month?
21 A. The 25th of June, approximately.
22 Q. You mean in 1992?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Could you please tell us something about the way the food was
25 prepared at the separation? It was prepared there?
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. Who did you cook for?
3 A. Well, we cooked for the police department in Omarska, for the main
4 staff, for the guards around the camp, for the military as well, and
5 others also.
6 Q. Could you briefly explain to us what the procedure was? When was
7 the food prepared, how it was distributed, to whom it was taken, and so on
8 and so forth?
9 A. We would arrive at 5.00 or 6.00 a.m., some would come even earlier
10 on to make the necessary preparations, to cut the bread and to take that
11 to Omarska, to the checkpoints, and then at the end, to the investigation
12 centre. That was the last distribution point.
13 Q. Let us make things clear. When you say "Omarska," are you
14 referring to the police station department?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What about checkpoints?
17 A. Well, they were the checkpoints manned by the military.
18 Q. How did you distribute food?
19 A. We distributed it in a little TAM truck and then later on in a
20 larger Zastafa truck.
21 Q. Could you tell us under whose command you were placed?
22 A. The kitchen was under the military command. It was part of the
24 Q. What was the situation with electricity in those days in the area
25 of Prijedor municipality, and in particular in the village of Omarska?
1 A. There were very frequent shortages. The power supply was not on
2 on a regular basis. Sometimes there would be four- or five-hour cuts.
3 Q. Did you have any problems because of that in terms of preparing
4 the food?
5 A. Yes, of course. We didn't have very often enough time to prepare
6 such a huge quantity of food.
7 Q. When you took the food to the police station department in
8 Omarska, that would have been at the beginning of June, am I right, when
9 you're beginning distributing the food?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. At the police station department, would you come across Dragoljub
12 Prcac at any point in time?
13 A. Yes, I would.
14 Q. You said that on the 25th of June, you were transferred to the
15 Investigation Centre in Omarska?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What kind of duties did you have there?
18 A. Well, my duty was to distribute food, to prepare things that were
19 necessary for the distribution of food, and to proceed with the actual
21 Q. Prior to that, did you go to the separation plant to do something
22 or would you go to the investigation centre directly?
23 A. No. We would first go to the separation building, we would
24 prepare everything, pack everything, and then we would take it first to
25 the police station department, to the military checkpoints, and finally to
1 the investigation centre.
2 Q. And the procedure was the same when you were transferred to the
3 investigation centre in Omarska on the 25th; am I right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What were your working hours?
6 A. From 5.00 or 6.00 a.m. until 2.00 or 3.00 p.m. until the food was
7 distributed. I would work one day, and I would be off duty the following
9 Q. You said you initially transported food in a little TAM truck, but
10 where was the food actually placed?
11 A. The food was placed in some kind of containers.
12 Q. When you brought the food to the investigation centre, would you
13 serve it from those containers or would you actually put it into other
15 A. As regards the investigation centre, the containers were very
16 large, military containers, and there was no need to put the food in any
17 other dishes.
18 Q. Was there any difference between the food that you took to the
19 detainees and the food taken to the investigators?
20 A. The food for the investigators was prepared separately.
21 Q. But was there any difference between the food that you provided to
22 the detainees and the guards, the security personnel?
23 A. No, there was no difference there.
24 Q. How much time per day would you spend in the investigation centre
25 in view of the fact that you worked in shift?
1 A. From 8.00 until 3.00, 8.00 a.m. until 3.00 or 4.00 p.m. It all
2 depended on the time of our arrival there.
3 Q. Do you know the people who were members of the security there?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. In addition to the security personnel, that is the people whom you
6 thought possible members of the security personnel, were there any other
7 groups of people there with some different assignments? Did you observe
8 anything of that kind?
9 A. There were two or three cleaning ladies there, a certain number of
10 technicians, the investigators were there, and some men from Banja Luka.
11 Q. As regards the men from Banja Luka, did they constitute any
12 special unit? Did you know what they were doing there? Did they provide
13 security? Were they investigators?
14 A. I don't know what kind of duties they had there.
15 Q. You told us you were a waiter. Where did you work?
16 A. I worked at the Potkozarje cafe in Omarska.
17 Q. Did Stojica Prcac, the wife of Dragoljub Prcac work with you?
18 A. Yes, she did. She worked in the kitchen. She was actually the
19 chief there in the kitchen.
20 Q. Do you know anything about the Prcac family?
21 A. Yes, I do. Dragoljub would pass by very often when he was coming
22 back from work. He would come to pick up his wife after work, and
23 sometimes Stojica and myself would discuss their, I don't know, financial
24 situation, the problems they had with their son who had a problem with his
25 arm. So they needed some additional money for the treatment of this
1 illness that their son had so they had to do some additional agricultural
2 work on top of that. What I'm trying to say is that their financial
3 situation was not very bright.
4 Q. You told us you used to see Mr. Dragoljub Prcac at the police
5 station department in Omarska?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Did you see him at the Omarska Investigation Centre?
8 A. I first saw Dragoljub sometime in July, mid-July.
9 Q. Do you know by any chance when Dragoljub Prcac stopped working at
10 the investigation centre?
11 A. I believe it was when the group of people, group of detainees left
12 for Manjaca.
13 Q. Did the investigation centre continue working after that?
14 A. I think that some 150, 200 detainees remained and the centre was
15 operational for, I don't know, additional 15 days or so.
16 Q. What kind of conditions were there at the investigation centre?
17 A. You mean before or after that event?
18 Q. No, I mean after the 15th.
19 A. They had beds, the food was better. The quality of the food was
20 better because the quantity was not so large any longer so the conditions
21 improved whereas before that, the conditions were rather bad.
22 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours,
23 the Defence concludes the examination of this witness.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Jovan
1 Any other Defence counsel who wish to ask questions of the
2 witness? No.
3 So Mr. Waidyaratne, I believe you will be conducting the
4 cross-examination. Your witness, Mr. Waidyaratne.
5 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:
7 Q. Mr. Velaula, you said that you worked as a waiter. When did you
8 work as a waiter in the restaurant called Potkozarje?
9 A. From 1977 to 1979. Then there was an interruption. I did
10 seasonal work along the coast until 1983 and after 1983, I went back to
11 Potkozarje and worked there until 1992.
12 Q. Until when in 1992?
13 A. I think January. Then in February, I left for Germany, and I was
14 in Germany until the end of May.
15 Q. Did you have any connection with another restaurant by the name of
17 A. No, I didn't. My brother worked there. He worked there for about
18 half a year.
19 Q. Mr. Velaula, you said that Mrs. Prcac worked with you in the
20 place, the restaurant called Potkozarje?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was it a bar or a tavern, this place that you called Potkozarje?
23 A. No. It was a restaurant, and there was a big hall, that is to
24 say, a small hall for -- like restaurant, and then there was a larger hall
25 too. But it was a restaurant, we called it a restaurant.
1 Q. It was a bar, they had a bar too, a place --
2 A. Yes, there was a bar.
3 Q. And did Mr. Prcac come there very often? Did he socialise with
4 the people there?
5 A. Well, he would come by from time to time on his way back from work
6 and spend 10 or 15 minutes there and then go on home. And in the evening,
7 as his wife worked until 10.00 p.m., he would come there about 9.00 to go
8 home with her, take her home.
9 Q. He never complained to you anything with regard to his family
10 problems or anything. He was a happy man, a cheerful man; is that
12 A. Well, I can't say he was a cheerful man and a happy man. I didn't
13 talk to him that much. I talked to his wife mostly.
14 Q. Now, we move on to the time that you came from Berlin. You said
15 that you came from Berlin on the 29th and you were mobilised immediately,
16 within two days, the 1st of June?
17 A. Yes, I was mobilised, yes.
18 Q. How long did you work with the Crisis Staff?
19 A. I wasn't in the Crisis Staff. I just provided security, stood
20 guard for the Crisis Staff. I was there seven or eight days, thereabouts.
21 Q. I understand. In that location, how long did you stay there?
22 A. Seven or eight days.
23 Q. Which unit were you attached to and who was your commanding
25 A. I was attached to the TO, the Territorial Defence as it was
1 called. And the Commander, well, let me see. I think it was Milan Andzic
2 or one of those, but I wasn't interested, really.
3 Q. You were not attached to the quartermaster's unit at any time?
4 You were attached to the TO?
5 A. Not from the beginning, no. I think the kitchen belonged to the
6 TO, too.
7 Q. I'm asking you a very direct question. You were not attached to
8 the quartermaster unit?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Now, you said that you first started distributing food, is that
11 correct, which was prepared and given to you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What exactly was your function? Were you the driver, or the
14 person who put the food into the containers, or were you accompanying
15 somebody in the truck? What was your function?
16 A. My function was to place the food into the mess kits and
17 containers. The driver drove. I went with him. And then I unloaded the
18 mess kits and containers and distributed the food. That was my function.
19 That's what I did.
20 Q. So you -- first you said you went to the Police Station Omarska;
21 am I correct?
22 A. Yes. We went to the police station, to the Crisis Staff, the
23 checkpoints around about, and then last we would go to the investigation
24 centre. When we had toured all the other places, we would end up by going
25 to the investigation centre.
1 Q. Right. First we will talk about -- was all the food loaded at
2 once to the truck, into the containers and put it into the truck, or did
3 you have to --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, you did this in one trip, all these locations?
6 A. All those places in one trip.
7 Q. Who decided the places that you had to go?
8 A. The head of the kitchen, the person in charge of the kitchen. He
9 would give me my orders.
10 Q. How do you know as to --
11 A. The head of the kitchen.
12 Q. How do you know as to how many meals should be given at one given
14 A. Well, the head of the kitchen would give a list of how much should
15 be taken where.
16 Q. So head of the kitchen in the sense, is that Mr. Pero Rendic?
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. So he gave a list as to how many meals should go to the Omarska
19 Police Station and how many meals should go to each and every checkpoint?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did he give the amount of meals that should go to the Omarska
22 Detention Centre?
23 A. He -- there were 2.000 or 3.000 containers of food or rations of
24 food, meals, so we would take 2.000 or 3.000 rations.
25 Q. Now, you're not very clear. First my question was, did Mr. Pero
1 Rendic give you the amount of meals that should be delivered at the
2 Omarska detention camp.
3 A. He had a list, and he would give us the list and say so much to be
4 taken to that place, so much to the second place, so much to the third
5 place, and we would have a list for the investigation centre as well.
6 Q. So by that, your answer, what you're trying to say is Mr. Pero
7 Rendic knew the amount of meals that should go to the Omarska camp; am I
9 A. He probably knew. Somebody probably knew.
10 Q. Now, you --
11 A. There was a list.
12 Q. Thank you. You said that you took 2.000 to 3.000 containers of
13 food or rations. Was it separately or in one big container?
14 A. You mean all put into one container? Well, there were four or
15 five of these containers. I don't know how many meals in one but they
16 were all -- all the food was put into these containers, I don't know how
17 much each container -- how much rations each container had.
18 Q. Now, Mr. Velaula, we will take the time. You said that you came
19 at 5.00. Did the kitchen start working at 5.00 or 6.00?
20 A. About 5.00 or 6.00, sometimes at 4.00 a.m. as well.
21 Q. And when you first started off the trip, how long -- what time did
22 you start off taking the food?
23 A. At about 6.30, 7.00. It was all close by.
24 Q. Very well. You mean to say the food was prepared by 7.00, 6.30,
25 7.00, for you to take the food? Is that your position?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How long did you take to come to the Omarska Detention Centre to
3 deliver the food? Keeping in mind you went to the police station, the
4 checkpoints, the Crisis Staff, according to what you said, how long would
5 you take to come to the detention centre?
6 A. About an hour, an hour and a half.
7 Q. So from what you say, it would be around 8.00 that you would be
9 A. Yes, 8.00, half past eight.
10 Q. Now, Mr. Velaula, there had been some testimony from Mr. Pero
11 Rendic before this Tribunal. Think clearly. Did you deliver breakfast to
12 the guards?
13 A. Breakfast? No, we didn't deliver breakfast.
14 Q. Did you deliver breakfast to the detainees?
15 A. No. There was just one meal.
16 Q. How many meals did the investigators have?
17 A. The same, one meal.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, talking about -- you said that you were peeling
19 potatoes and onions. What could you say that it was in the meal which,
20 what you call the meal, which was provided to the detainees?
21 A. Sometimes it was a soup, a potato soup, sometimes cabbage soup,
22 that kind of thing, or stew, potato, things like that.
23 Q. In your estimation or your opinion, was this in good condition,
24 the quality of the soup?
25 A. In my opinion, no, it wasn't, because there was no --
1 Q. Sorry, yes, please go on.
2 A. There was not enough ingredients -- there were not enough
3 ingredients for you to make a tasty meal.
4 Q. Was it in quantity sufficient for the detainees who were there?
5 A. The quantity? They had one meal a day. They would receive a
6 plate full of this soup or stew, a quarter of a loaf of bread a day.
7 Whether that was enough for them, I can't say.
8 Q. I didn't go back -- I was not unfair by that question to you,
9 because you subsequently said you distributed food too, when you served in
10 the camp. That's why I'm asking you. When you served the food, in your
11 opinion, did the detainees always have a quarter of a loaf of bread?
12 A. To begin with, it was an eighth of a loaf, not a quarter, an
13 eighth of a loaf, but on the 1st of July -- the 1st of August, it was a
14 quarter. To begin with, there wasn't as much bread as later on.
15 Q. What about the time from 1st of June to the 30th of July? Did
16 they have sufficient bread?
17 A. The 1st of June to?
18 Q. The 30th of July.
19 A. There was a bread shortage and that's why we gave an eighth of a
20 loaf to -- per person.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 Mr. Velaula, you said that you came to the Omarska camp and worked
23 in the canteen, am I correct?
24 A. I don't understand how you mean canteen. What canteen are you
25 talking about?
1 Q. You said that after working in the kitchen, were you sometimes
2 transferred to the Omarska detention camp, the investigation centre?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Where were you? What were you doing there?
5 A. In the investigation centre, well I've explained that already. We
6 took the food to the investigation centre and I organised the distribution
7 of the food. I supervised this for a little while. There were women
8 washing the dishes further on over there, and I supervised the
9 distribution of the food. I watched while it was being done actually.
10 Q. Yes. Now, when you say the distribution, if you use the word
11 "distribution," you are talking about the place where the detainees came
12 to eat which is popularly known as the restaurant; am I correct?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. Now, this was the building which was, if you may know, did you
15 know that this building was called the administration building too?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So how long did you spend in this restaurant building when you
18 went to distribute the food and supervise the distribution?
19 A. Well, I would spend most of my time there from 8.00 until 3.00 or
20 4.00 depending on when the food was distributed, how long it took. But I
21 was present there more or less all the time.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, I apologise for
23 interrupting, but please bear in mind the time. Have you got your time
24 under control? Are you taking care of the time?
25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, proceed.
2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Now, did you see Mr. Prcac in this administration building?
4 A. In the morning, a cook, a lady cook would come to me and we would
5 take the food up to the investigators so that we would first give -- go to
6 where it said police and on the right-hand side, there was a room and
7 Dragoljub was there and we would leave the food there and there was a
8 telephone there. Then we would go and distribute the food to the
9 investigators and go back downstairs.
10 Q. Now, did you see Mr. Prcac come into the kitchen to have his
12 A. No, I didn't.
13 Q. Did you see --
14 A. I didn't go downstairs because we would take the food upstairs.
15 Q. Just so it's very clear, now the kitchen is in the ground floor.
16 When you were distributing food did you see Mr. Prcac in the ground
18 A. Sometimes.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jovan Simic.
20 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The witness answered a moment ago
21 that he wasn't downstairs and he didn't see him there. So there's no
22 reason for the Prosecution to insist upon something and try to drag
23 something out of the witness who said that he saw Mr. Prcac upstairs not
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think there's something to
1 clear up here nonetheless. He wasn't on the ground floor. You know the
2 restaurant was on the ground floor, and Mr. Prcac's office was on the
3 first floor. But nevertheless, please proceed, Mr. Waidyaratne. Go ahead
4 and you've already used up your time, I think.
5 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I have one more minute, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Velaula, did you see Mr. Prcac on the ground floor?
7 A. Mr. Prcac on the ground floor, well I saw him the first day when
8 he came.
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... did you see him on the ground
11 A. I didn't see -- I wouldn't see him on the ground floor. I would
12 see him on the upper floor.
13 Q. Did you see the detainees being obstructed and being beaten when
14 they come to have their meals by the guards who were there in the camp?
15 A. I couldn't see that. I just saw them when they came inside and
16 when they were in the kitchen because I couldn't see that in front over
17 there because there was a door, and then there's an entrance and the
18 entrance to the kitchen, and this is where I was standing. So I couldn't
19 actually see that from where I was standing.
20 Q. Were you aware that the detainees were beaten when they came for
21 their meals by the guards; yes or no?
22 A. Well, perhaps I did see some person beaten when he went inside,
23 but he was beaten, a bruise, but I didn't know when he was beaten or why
24 he was beaten. I wouldn't actually see him being beaten.
25 Q. My last question for you, Mr. Velaula, how long were detainees
1 given to have their meals?
2 A. Two or three minutes.
3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you Your Honour, that concludes my
4 examination. Thank you.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
6 Mr. Waidyaratne.
7 Mr. Jovan Simic, any re-examination? If so, go ahead.
8 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I shall be brief, Your Honour. But
9 if the Prosecution takes up a little piece of our time every time, then
10 it's going to be difficult for us. We had planned to cover four witnesses
11 a day, but the Prosecution keeps taking a little bit of our time, but
12 never mind, I'll do my best and be as brief as possible.
13 Re-examined by Mr. J. Simic:
14 Q. Mr. Velaula, you said you did not belong to the quartermaster
15 service to begin with. Now, did that relate to that first period of seven
16 days; is that what you mean?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And afterwards, were you transferred to the quartermaster service?
19 A. Yes, I was transferred to the kitchen and thus became part of the
20 quartermaster service.
21 Q. Thank you. My second question, do you know in Omarska whether
22 there was a police station or a police department?
23 A. There was a police department.
24 Q. Now, my next question is about the list for the food.
25 Mr. Waidyaratne asked you something about that. The list that you
1 received from Pero Rendic. Did that list refer to the number of meals or
2 the number of containers? Did he give you 2.000 or 3.000 meals or were
3 they containers that said Omarska, the army, and so on?
4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I object, Your Honour. The context, what the
5 witness said was that Mr. Pero Rendic had a list of the people, the
6 detainees in Omarska camp. That's what I understood and that was --
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, this question
8 is quite a legitimate one.
9 Mr. Jovan Simic, go ahead and ask your question. If we're not
10 speaking of people, we're speaking of portions, then that is something
12 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Could you answer my question, please? Were they the number of
14 meals or was it the quantity of containers that you took? Could you
15 describe to this Trial Chamber so that we leave no doubt?
16 A. There were about 4.000 to 5.000 meals being cooked, being
17 prepared. Now, I don't know whether it was the quantity or the number.
18 We got these containers, you see, and they said these containers would go
19 to the investigation centre, these would go to the police station. It was
20 written up on each of the containers and we just took them and distributed
22 Q. Tell us, please, whether the investigators, the staff of the
23 centre, and the guards, did they eat in the Separacija after working
25 A. Well, I don't know because I went straight home. I didn't go back
1 to the Separacija building.
2 Q. So you don't know. Thank you.
3 My next question: Where did the guards have their table where
4 they ate? Where was the table that the guards ate at located?
5 A. The guards, you mean? Well, not in the kitchen. There wasn't a
6 table there. They would come in, take the food. Some people would bring
7 food from home, but they didn't have a table in the kitchen. That's for
9 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Jovan
13 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.
14 Questioned by the Court:
15 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Velaula, good morning. Can you hear me?
16 A. Yes, I can.
17 JUDGE RIAD: I just would like to have some more clarification
18 concerning a few points of your testimony. You mentioned that after the
19 15th of July, the conditions of the camp became better and that they were
20 rather bad before that date.
21 Which means in June until the middle of July. What did you mean
22 by "they were rather bad"? Could you tell me what you meant by that?
23 A. Well, the people were in the hangar. They were outside. They
24 were sitting close to one another. The hygiene conditions weren't at a
25 high level, so that's what I mean when I say "poor conditions."
1 JUDGE RIAD: You speak of the hygiene conditions. According to
2 your conception, what was wrong with it?
3 A. Well, what was wrong with it? People didn't take baths. They did
4 go to the WC, but they weren't able to take baths and see to their
5 personal hygiene. So that's what I meant, poor hygiene, bad hygienic
7 JUDGE RIAD: You said it improved also with regard to the food.
8 What improved in the food? The loaf of bread became one-fourth instead of
10 A. Yes, yes, that's what it was about.
11 JUDGE RIAD: But they continued having only one meal a day?
12 A. That's right. They continued having just one meal a day. They
13 still had only one meal a day.
14 JUDGE RIAD: And they had -- with this quarter loaf of bread, what
15 did they have, after the 15th of July?
16 A. Well, there was this soup or stews made of potatoes, cabbage,
17 beans, that kind of thing.
18 JUDGE RIAD: And before the 15th of July this soup existed the
19 same way or was it worse?
20 A. Mostly this sort of soup.
21 JUDGE RIAD: And this was the same thing as you -- I believe you
22 said was also given to the -- to the guards, to the security personnel?
23 A. Yes. It was taken to them and to the detainees. It was all the
25 JUDGE RIAD: You mean the security personnel just ate a soup and a
1 quarter or an eighth of bread?
2 A. Well, they would bring in food from home. We would take them the
3 same food but they would bring in their own food from home and eat that
4 too, because they didn't like the food that we were handing out, so they
5 would bring their own food, and very few people actually ate the food we
6 brought them. They would eat their own food from home.
7 JUDGE RIAD: So the food was not eatable, in your opinion?
8 A. Well, yes, it was eatable, but it wasn't of a very good quality.
9 JUDGE RIAD: Did you eat it yourself?
10 A. I didn't, no.
11 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that the investigators used to have
12 also one meal a day, like the detainees. Now, what were the working hours
13 of the -- of these investigators? How long did they stay in the camp?
14 A. I think the same thing, from about 8.00 in the morning to 2.00 or
15 3.00 in the afternoon.
16 JUDGE RIAD: And they had one meal? They had lunch?
17 A. Yes, one meal, it was lunch actually.
18 JUDGE RIAD: They did not need to have dinner because they went
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 JUDGE RIAD: But the detainees did not have dinner?
22 A. I've already said, the detainees had just one meal a day.
23 JUDGE RIAD: What was it? Lunch?
24 A. Well, everything, lunch, breakfast and supper. I don't know how
25 to call it.
1 JUDGE RIAD: Now, when they went into the restaurant, you said
2 that you could not see from where you were anything happening, beating and
3 so on. But could you hear? Could you hear cries, shouts?
4 A. You could hear them sometimes, but I couldn't see anything,
5 because I've explained, I couldn't from where I was. From my position, I
6 couldn't see anything.
7 JUDGE RIAD: What could you hear, if you remember?
8 A. Well, some people would cry out or moan.
9 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad
12 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.
13 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Velaula, a few questions. Did I understand from
14 your testimony that this soup or stew which was usually the main course,
15 as it were, of the meal, was prepared in the Separacija or did -- was it
16 prepared outside and then heated up and something added in the Separacija,
17 or was it prepared from the beginning, from scratch, in the Separacija?
18 A. It was prepared in the Separacija, in the kitchen there.
19 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So it was made from the beginning. How about
20 the bread? Where -- did that come from outside or was that baked in the
22 A. I think the bread came from Prijedor.
23 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, I understand your answer to Judge Riad's
24 question was that this food you prepared for all the different locations,
25 the police department, the detainees, some military, was basically a
1 midday meal because you delivered it by the middle of the morning or so,
2 and it was a sort of lunch or a sort of a midday meal. Is that right?
3 People would get it and eat it sometime in the middle of the day. So that
4 the presumption was, except for the detainees, people ate their breakfast
5 some place else and they ate their dinner later on some place else? So it
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE WALD: It was basically a midday lunch but for the detainees
9 it was the only meal of that day?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 JUDGE WALD: Now, you talked -- I got a little bit mixed up
12 because at one point, I thought you said that the investigators got
13 different food. The guards got the same food but the investigators got
14 different food but then at another point you talked about taking the food
15 to the investigators. I just want you to clear that up for me, whether or
16 not you took this same food to the investigators as opposed to the
18 A. Yes, I said that a separate meal was prepared for them.
19 JUDGE WALD: Okay. That's what I thought, but I wanted to make
20 sure. Thank you. You talked about there being women in the Separacija
21 kitchen. Were those women civilian women from outside the camp or were
22 those women detainees who were working in the kitchen in the Separacija
24 A. There were women in the camp, in the investigation centre. There
25 were detainees, women. But there are two cleaning women down there as
2 JUDGE WALD: But there were detainee women working in the kitchen,
3 some; is that right?
4 A. Mostly they helped us down there to distribute the food and wash
5 the dishes.
6 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So you at some point after you were
7 transferred to the centre, and you helped to supervise the distribution of
8 the food to the detainees, I know you told us you were not in a position
9 to see them as they came in or entered from outside, but you did see them
10 in the actual restaurant eating, right? Getting in the lines, getting
11 their food and sitting down for a couple of minutes and eating it? You
12 were able to see them then; is that right?
13 A. Yes. I was, I was present there.
14 JUDGE WALD: Right. What were your observations of what condition
15 they were in? Did they look underfed? Did some of them have bruises or
16 injuries on them? Outside of not being able to take baths so that they
17 probably looked dirty or disheveled, but how did they look health-wise or
18 nutrition-wise to you?
19 A. Well, they certainly weren't well fed. They were thin. That kind
20 of thing.
21 JUDGE WALD: Right. My last question to you is: When you did see
22 Mr. Prcac in the camp, what was your impression of what kind of duties he
23 was performing there? Just from your own observations. Or what did --
24 what kind of duties did you think he was doing there?
25 A. Well, I don't know. I saw Dragoljub the first time when I was
1 taking the food upstairs, I saw him in the room there he was by the
2 telephone and with the lady there. What role he had and what he did in
3 the police, I don't know. I'm not aware of police formations and things
4 like that so I don't -- I can't say.
5 JUDGE WALD: But was it your impression during the period that you
6 would be coming and going to the camp in your food distribution function,
7 did you get the impression that he was a regular guard or that maybe his
8 duties were different from those of the regular guards who were guarding
9 the prisoners?
10 A. Well, I have just said that I don't know what he actually did down
11 there or what position he held so I don't think I can answer the
13 JUDGE WALD: The only times that you saw him were on that floor in
14 that room with the telephones or radios; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam
19 Mr. Velaula, I have a very brief question for you, just one. If I
20 understand you correctly, there was a kitchen at the separation building
21 and there was also a canteen or a restaurant for the food distribution at
22 the Omarska centre; am I correct?
23 A. At the Omarska centre?
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 A. Yes. Yes. There was a restaurant there where the food was
1 distributed but the food was actually prepared at the separation
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Where did women
4 detainees work? Did they work only at the kitchen at the separation
5 building or also at the restaurant?
6 A. The women detainees were at the restaurant at the investigation
7 centre. They were not at the separation building. When we came there, we
8 would find them sitting in the restaurant area, two or three of them would
9 be washing the dishes maybe after that and two or three would be
10 distributing the food and helping us with the food.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
12 Mr. Velaula. We have no further questions for you. Thank you very much
13 once again for coming to testify at the Tribunal, and let me just wish you
14 a pleasant journey back to your place of residence.
15 Could the usher please accompany the witness out of the courtroom.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honours.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, who is our next
20 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our next witness will
21 be a protected witness, DE/1, who will be examined by my colleague,
22 Mr. Dusan Masic.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If my memory serves me right,
24 the protective measures have been granted, pseudonym, image distortion and
25 voice distortion or not?
1 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Without voice distortion so that
2 the public can also hear the witness.
3 Your Honour, I think that it would be perhaps more advisable, in
4 view of the protective measures, to have our break now at this point so
5 after the break we will finish -- we will hear this protected witness and
6 then --
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right,
8 Mr. Simic, because there are certain measures, technical measures, that
9 need to be taken beforehand. Is that what you had in mind?
10 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right. It is
12 true that the public will be able to follow the testimony of the following
13 witness. However, in view of certain restrictions in terms of protective
14 measures, some steps need to be taken. So we will have a half-hour break
15 at this point and come back to hear the protected witness.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness DE/1. Can
21 you hear me?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will you please read the solemn
24 declaration that the usher is giving to you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 WITNESS: WITNESS DE/1
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. And the
5 usher will pull up the blinds and then after that, we will continue.
6 Witness DE/1, will you now please have a look at this piece of
7 paper which should contain your name and surname, and will you please tell
8 me, by saying simply yes or no, if what is contained on the paper is
9 indeed your name?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Witness DE/1, thank
12 you very much for coming here to testify. You will first be answering
13 questions that will be put to you by Mr. Masic. And we will follow the
14 usual order after that.
15 Mr. Masic, your witness.
16 Examined by Mr. Masic:
17 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Good morning, Mr. DE/1. That is how we will be referring to you
19 because of the protective measures that have been granted in your
21 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I shall kindly ask Your Honours to
22 move into private session briefly, for the purposes of identifying
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we will move briefly into a
25 private session, for purposes of identification of the witness.
1 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in public session,
1 Mr. Masic. Please continue.
2 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. After you were mobilised, where were you assigned to?
4 A. I was assigned to the police station department in Omarska.
5 Q. What did you do there?
6 A. I was a reserve policeman there.
7 Q. Who was the commander of the police station department in Omarska
8 at that time?
9 A. Zeljko Meakic.
10 Q. Was there a deputy commander to the police station department?
11 A. No, there was no deputy commander.
12 Q. As regards the police station department in Omarska, was there any
13 duty policeman there?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What were the obligations and duties of the duty policeman?
16 A. He was supposed to take in reports made by citizens on burglaries,
17 traffic accidents and the like, and to issue instructions that had been
18 written to reserve policemen as to what they were supposed to do during
19 their shift.
20 Q. Who issued those instructions or orders?
21 A. Zeljko Meakic did.
22 Q. Does that mean that the duty policemen simply conveyed the orders
23 of Zeljko Meakic, simply passed them on?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. As regards the duty officer, could he order you, as a reserve
1 policeman, to do anything? Could he issue you any orders?
2 A. No, he couldn't.
3 Q. And could the duty officer punish you in any way?
4 A. No, he couldn't.
5 Q. Were you later transferred to the Omarska Investigation Centre?
6 A. Yes, I was.
7 Q. Could you briefly explain to us how it went, how it was?
8 A. One morning when we came to work, the duty officer told us that we
9 would be transported in a van to the Omarska mine complex.
10 Q. Who was there at the Omarska mine complex when you arrived? Who
11 took you in?
12 A. Zeljko Meakic.
13 Q. What did he tell you at that point?
14 A. He told us that we would be there from now on in order to guard
15 Muslim detainees.
16 Q. Did he also tell you at that time for how long you would be doing
17 that work?
18 A. Yes, he did. He said approximately 10 to 15 days.
19 Q. Did he also assign you to specific guard posts at that time?
20 A. No, he didn't do that that morning. However, when we reported to
21 the second shift that evening, he told us where we would be posted.
22 Q. Were you able to choose the guard post that you want to be
23 assigned to?
24 A. We could, yes. And I was in the last garage, in the hangar
1 Q. How disciplined were you? What was the discipline amongst you?
2 A. There was no discipline.
3 Q. What exactly do you mean when you say there was no discipline?
4 Were you able to leave your guard post? Did you have to report to anyone
5 upon leaving the guard post during your shift?
6 A. No, we didn't have to report to anyone.
7 Q. Would you slow down, please, for the benefit of the interpreters.
8 Please continue.
9 A. No, we didn't have to ask anyone. We simply agreed amongst
10 ourselves, our colleagues, when we want to go out.
11 Q. Does it mean that your colleagues would then replace you as you
12 would replace them when necessary?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In addition to the guards, were there any other people, any other
15 personnel or units within the investigation centre?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who else was there, if you can tell us, please?
18 A. There was the technical personnel in charge of maintaining the
19 mine complex, then there was a unit from Banja Luka, a group of policemen
20 who were in charge of taking people into custody.
21 Q. Was there any cleaning personnel, any cleaning ladies there?
22 A. Yes, there were two cleaning ladies.
23 Q. What about the investigators, interrogators?
24 A. They were there as well, yes.
25 Q. Was there any military there?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who took the detainees for interrogations, who took them to the
4 A. There was a special group of policemen assigned for that purpose.
5 Q. Who were members of that special unit or rather special group of
7 A. Some of the personnel were from Banja Luka, and some were from our
8 police service.
9 Q. When was that group of police which was in charge of taking
10 detainees formed, when was it established?
11 A. Three or four days after we arrived there, approximately.
12 Q. Would you often see Zeljko Meakic at the camp?
13 A. Yes, I would.
14 Q. How often?
15 A. Very often.
16 Q. Do you know Dragoljub Prcac?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. How do you know him and when did you meet him?
19 A. I first met him sometime in 1988 or 1989. His wife Stojica used
20 to work in a restaurant where we ate, and he would come to pick her up
21 from work and that is how I met him, when her shift was over.
22 Q. Would you talk to Drago in those days while he was waiting for his
23 wife and what did you talk about?
24 A. Yes, I did. We talked about agriculture and some insignificant
1 Q. What kind of man was he, Drago Prcac, in your opinion? What did
2 you think of him?
3 A. Drago was a very calm, withdrawn man. He was a very fine person.
4 Q. Do you know when Drago came to the Omarska Investigation Centre,
5 if at all?
6 A. I think it was towards the very end of the existence of the
7 investigation centre.
8 Q. Could you please be more specific when it was when the
9 investigation centre was closed down? What do you mean by "towards the
10 end of its existence"?
11 A. Well, it was in the latter half of July, from the 15th of July
13 Q. What did Drago Prcac do at the centre?
14 A. I don't know what he did there.
15 Q. Was he some kind of superior to you?
16 A. No, he wasn't.
17 Q. Did you ever see him issue any orders to anyone?
18 A. No, I did not.
19 Q. At the beginning of August, do you remember any particular
20 incident and, if so, what is it that you remember?
21 A. Yes. I remember Drago Prcac reading out the list of women's
22 names, the women who were supposed to go to Trnopolje.
23 Q. How is it that you remembered that particular event?
24 A. Well, I remember it because they were hugging him and kissing
25 him. They seemed to be very happy.
13 blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 Q. After that, did you see Drago Prcac at the Omarska Investigation
2 Centre again?
3 A. No.
4 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my
5 examination of this witness.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Nikolic?
7 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. With
8 your permission, the Defence of Mr. Kos wishes to ask a few questions of
9 this witness.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Nikolic.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Nikolic:
12 Q. Good morning, Witness DE/1. My first question for you will be the
13 following: Do you know the person by the name of Milojica Kos?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Did you know him from before the war in 1992?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Did you work together with Mr. Milojica Kos at the investigation
18 centre in Omarska?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Did you work on the same shift?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. According to your knowledge, Mr. Milojica Kos, did he have any
23 authority to issue orders?
24 A. No.
25 Q. According to your knowledge, did Mr. Milojica Kos ever issue any
1 order to you or anyone else?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And my last question: According to what you know, did
4 Mr. Milojica Kos have any subordinates at the investigation centre?
5 A. No, he did not.
6 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, witness. Thank
7 you, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.
9 Does any other Defence counsel wish to examine the witness? No.
10 Mr. Saxon, I believe, will be conducting the cross-examination.
11 Mr. Saxon, you have the floor.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:
13 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Witness DE/1, you have explained that you were first mobilised as
15 a reserve policeman in May of 1992, and later on, you went to work as a
16 guard at the Omarska camp; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you recall signing a declaration in May of 1992, pledging to
19 uphold the laws and the constitution of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
21 A. Yes, I do recall that.
22 MR. SAXON: I'm wondering if we could ask the usher to help us
23 distribute Exhibit 3/289? Your Honour, I'm going to ask that we go into
24 private session because the witness's true name is on this document and
25 that we make sure that the ELMO, which I'm going to use, will not show the
1 document to the public.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We will move into private
3 session, and let me ask the technical booth not to broadcast the document
4 which will be now placed on the ELMO.
5 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in public session, Mr.
3 MR. SAXON:
4 Q. You mentioned during your direct testimony that after you arrived
5 in Omarska camp, that -- you mentioned during your direct testimony that
6 when you arrived at the Omarska camp, Zeljko Meakic met you there and told
7 you that you'd be there to guard detainees for 10 to 15 days. I just
8 wanted to ask you, did it -- did you become aware that most of those
9 detainees at the Omarska camp were of Muslim ethnicity, that they were
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. On the day that you arrived at the Omarska camp, when you were met
13 there by Zeljko Meakic, did you notice by any chance if Mladjo Radic was
14 present at the time?
15 A. No, I don't remember that.
16 Q. You said that "when we reported to the second shift that night,
17 Zeljko Meakic told us where we would be posted as guards." But then you
18 said, "We could choose where we wanted." And I just want to make sure the
19 record is clear. Did Zeljko Meakic tell you as the new guards where to
20 take up your posts, or did the guards together simply form an agreement as
21 to who would be standing where?
22 A. That morning, when we arrived -- actually, we went home and then
23 we came back later in the afternoon, to do the evening shift. And it was
24 at that point in time that Zeljko Meakic saw us. He met with us before
25 the night shift started and he told us that we should take up our
1 positions as guards at the guard posts.
2 Q. And did Zeljko Meakic tell you, the guards, the new guards, what
3 positions to take up?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Well, then, how did you know? How did you and your colleagues,
6 the new guards, know where to go, what positions to take up?
7 A. Well, some of us went, that is, my group went towards the hangar
8 and others remained there.
9 Q. Was this simply a spontaneous distribution of people, people just
10 wandered off to wherever they felt like?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Well, Mladjo Radic gave an interview to the Office of the
13 Prosecutor in 1999 and he also talked about his first day at the Omarska
14 camp and this is, I believe, Prosecution Exhibit 3/215. On page 67 of the
15 English version, page 69 of the B/C/S version, Mr. Radic was asked about
16 his first evening at the Omarska camp and he said the following. He said
17 that Zeljko Meakic told him that, "Comrade Radic, you will be working
18 here." To another one he said, "You will be standing further away from
19 the garage." To another one, "You will be standing on the side of the
20 restaurant." To another one, he said, "You will be standing by the white
21 house." He said on page 68 of the version, he said, "You stay here," and
22 then to Mirko he said, "You stay here," and then to another one, "Over
23 there," and so on.
24 Dragoljub Prcac also gave an interview to the Office of the
25 Prosecutor which has also been admitted into evidence. I believe it's
1 Prosecution Exhibit 3/167, and he describes his first day at the Omarska
2 camp when Zeljko Meakic told him, and this is on page 62 of the English
3 version, page 19 of the B/C/S version. According to Mr. Prcac, Zeljko
4 Meakic told him, "Drago, you are going to be duty officer here," meaning
5 on one of the offices in the first floor of the administration building.
6 Can you comment on the fact that there seems to be a bit of a
7 discrepancy between how the guards that you were with were told to take up
8 positions and how the guards that Mladjo Radic was told to take up
9 positions with and there seems to be a discrepancy between your experience
10 and Mr. Prcac's experience. Can you just comment on that?
11 A. Well, possibly if they were more closely distributed. All I know
12 is that five or six of us went towards the hangar.
13 Q. You commented on Zeljko Meakic. What position did Mr. Meakic have
14 in the Omarska camp?
15 A. I know Zeljko as the commander of the police station department of
17 Q. What was Zeljko Meakic's position in the Omarska camp, if you
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Did Zeljko Meakic ever give any orders, to your knowledge?
21 A. While we were in the Omarska Police Department, yes.
22 Q. When you were working at the Omarska camp as a guard and Zeljko
23 Meakic was also working there, did Zeljko Meakic ever give any orders?
24 A. Not to me.
25 Q. How about to other people in your presence?
1 A. No, I didn't hear him. I don't know about the others.
2 Q. You said that there was no discipline at the Omarska camp. Do you
3 recall approximately how many detainees were there, how many people were
4 being detained there?
5 A. I really can't say.
6 Q. If there was no discipline at the Omarska camp, how did you know
7 what to do?
8 A. I knew what to do.
9 Q. How did you know that?
10 A. It was my job to guard the prisoners, to let them go out to the
11 WC, and they did that themselves when I came, and to prepare them to go
12 out for lunch.
13 Q. All right. And you followed those procedures; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You did your job?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So you would agree then that there was some discipline at the
18 Omarska camp. There wasn't anarchy, was there?
19 A. I couldn't take out -- anybody out of order to go have lunch out
20 of order. There was an order according to which they would go out.
21 Q. Tell me something, who created that order?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Did it stir up from the sky, as far you know?
24 A. No, let me explain. If -- from the hangar, for example, one was
25 upstairs where the prisoners were and the other was the other side. If
1 they were to go first today, they would be last tomorrow and so in a
2 circle. So you would know.
3 Q. Very nice. Who set up that system?
4 A. That, I don't know.
5 Q. How did you know when to show up for work?
6 A. I knew according to the shifts.
7 Q. And who created the shifts and the schedule of the shifts?
8 A. When we came for the first time, there were two shifts. Later on,
9 there were three. I don't know who created them, set them up.
10 Q. And how did you follow the schedule?
11 A. Well, when there were two, I would go home to rest and then come
12 back again.
13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Saxon, and thank
15 you for finishing before your time was up.
16 Mr. Masic, any re-examination of the witness?
17 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] No thank you, Your Honours. No
18 further questions.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. What about
20 Mr. Nikolic? No?
21 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE RIAD: Witness DE/1, good morning. Do you hear me?
24 A. Good morning.
25 JUDGE RIAD: I just have one question, perhaps two. You mentioned
1 that you did not have to report to anyone when you were speaking about the
2 fact that there was no discipline. Now, does that mean that anyone could
3 beat any detainee and not be accountable, or molest any of the women and
4 not be accountable to anyone? Was there no responsibility, in your
6 A. No. As far as I know, no.
7 JUDGE RIAD: Then you were responsible before whom?
8 A. What for?
9 JUDGE RIAD: For what I said, if you beat a detainee, or if you
10 molest one of the women detainees, if you violate the law of the camp? Or
11 there was no law at all? That's what I want to know.
12 A. I didn't say that. I said -- I apologise. I said I don't know.
13 Neither did I see anybody beat anybody. Nor do I know who that person
14 would be responsible to if they did.
15 JUDGE RIAD: You never saw anybody being beaten?
16 A. Before my eyes, no, not while I was at the hangar.
17 JUDGE RIAD: Did you hear about it?
18 A. Yes, I did hear about it.
19 JUDGE RIAD: And when that happened, or when you heard about it,
20 was anything done about it?
21 A. As far as I know, no.
22 JUDGE RIAD: And also speaking of the lack of discipline, and you
23 mentioned that everybody could choose what he wanted to do, and if several
24 persons chose the same thing, who would solve this problem? Several
25 people want to go out for a party and leave the camp, or do the same job,
1 the good jobs, and leave the bad jobs?
2 A. Well, you know what, it was like this: There was never any
3 problem there.
4 JUDGE RIAD: Well, thank you very much.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad
7 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.
8 JUDGE WALD: Do I understand your testimony to be that you never
9 witnessed any beatings or abuse of prisoners, though you heard about
10 some? Is that what you said?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 JUDGE WALD: Did you ever see in the camp detainees bearing on
13 their bodies the marks of having been injured or beaten or bruised?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE WALD: You did. Now, you also told us that if a guard had
16 to leave early or had to do something, the guards got together and worked
17 it out to make sure that his position was taken care of. They worked it
18 out amongst themselves; is that right? I think you said that. If a guard
19 had to leave duty --
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 JUDGE WALD: Okay. What I wanted to know is, since according to
22 your testimony, there were no -- there was no hierarchy of guards, suppose
23 one guard wanted -- had friends among the detainees, or neighbours or
24 relatives, and wanted those persons to be protected to some degree. Did
25 it happen that one guard would say to the others, "Leave that person
1 alone," or, "Don't bother that person, please"? Or that those kinds of
2 things could be worked out among the guards so that certain people would
3 get some measure of protection from beatings or abuse?
4 A. I don't know that.
5 JUDGE WALD: You didn't come across that? You didn't experience
6 that in your experience -- in your time at the camp?
7 A. I saw -- that is to say, I was sitting on the upper floor when,
8 before and after lunch, they would go past. Those Muslims would sit down
9 with me, like I'm sitting here, but they were people I didn't know.
10 JUDGE WALD: Okay. We did have some testimony here that, in fact,
11 on one occasion, Mr. Prcac himself intervened to stop the abuse of a
12 particular prisoner, and said to the people that were doing it, you know,
13 "Stop that" even to the extent of drawing a gun or pistol on that. My
14 question to you is: Did you have any experience whereby one guard would
15 say to another guard, "Don't do that," or, "I don't think you ought to do
16 that," or, "You're not doing that right," or one guard would intervene
17 when another guard might be doing something that was abusive?
18 A. No.
19 JUDGE WALD: Do you -- in your own mind at that time, did you have
20 any idea what you would do if you saw somebody being abused? I mean, what
21 do you think your obligation as a guard would have been, had you witnessed
22 a prisoner being abused? According to whatever training, whatever rules
23 you were following, what would your obligation have been if you saw a
24 prisoner being abused?
25 A. My obligation was to guard the prisoners, to take them out to
1 lunch and to escort them to the toilet.
2 JUDGE WALD: Fine. But suppose guarding, I'm sure -- by guarding
3 the prisoners, did that in your mind encompass protecting them not only
4 from escaping themselves but from other people beating or abusing them?
5 Was that part of the guard function that you were performing?
6 A. Before my eyes, no prisoners while I was down there were beaten.
7 JUDGE WALD: I understand that, but I'm just asking you if you
8 could answer the question, since you were a reserve policeman who was on
9 temporary duty guarding prisoners and had been told by Mr. Meakic that
10 your function was to guard the prisoners. I'm asking you what your
11 interpretation of what that guard obligation was. Was it simply to stop
12 them from escaping or to make sure that nobody came in and abused them?
13 A. You would need 300 or 3.000 policemen for that to be done.
14 JUDGE WALD: For the second, to make sure that nobody came in and
15 abused them? You're saying you would have needed a lot more guards than
16 were currently there? Is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge
21 Witness DE/1, I should like to go back to the question of your
22 tasks and duties. I thought I heard -- Mr. Saxon touched upon the issue
23 in a question he asked, but I thought I heard you say in your
24 examination-in-chief that your task was to guard the Muslim prisoners.
25 Now, I should like to know why Muslim prisoners? Why did you say Muslim
2 A. That's what was said at the time.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think it was Zeljko Meakic who
4 told you that you were there to guard the Muslim prisoners. Did I
5 understand that correctly? Did Zeljko Meakic tell you to do that, to
6 guard the Muslim prisoners?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now let me put the question to
9 you in another way. Were there other detainees, apart from the Muslims,
10 detainees who were not Muslims?
11 A. I think there were, yes, yes.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What ethnic group did these
13 others belong to?
14 A. There were some Serbs.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Did you have the
16 task to guard those Serb prisoners as well or not?
17 A. No.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So according to you, you were
19 there for the sole purpose of guarding the Muslim detainees. The Serbs or
20 possibly Croats were not under your responsibility; is that what you want
21 to say? You were not there to guard them?
22 A. I don't think we understood each other. Those prisoners were
23 outside my guard post, beyond my guard post.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So if I understood you
25 correctly, you were guarding the detainees from perils that could come to
1 them from the exterior, if I can put it that way?
2 A. I did not say that. I said that I was guarding the prisoners to
3 prevent them from escaping and I -- my duty was to take them out to meals
4 and to escort them to the toilets.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. But in an answer that you
6 gave to my learned colleague, Judge Wald, if I am correct, you said to
7 protect them from internal dangers, you would have to have many more
8 guards. I think that's what you said. So you're saying that you were not
9 allowed to -- you were not able to protect them from aggression amongst
10 themselves or aggression on them by other guards. Yes or no.
11 A. No.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What are you saying no in answer
13 to? What do you mean by "no"? Perhaps I didn't put my question properly,
14 but could you explain why you are saying no?
15 A. I said a moment ago that no incidents took place during the time I
16 was doing guard duty, during the time I was on duty.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. You said that
18 you saw prisoners being beaten. Do you know who beat the prisoners? You
19 didn't see that, no. You said you didn't see them being beaten. No, you
20 said you saw them, but do you know who beat the prisoners? You didn't
21 actually see them being beaten, but you saw that they had been beaten. Do
22 you know who did that to them?
23 A. I saw that they had been beaten but I didn't see who beat them. I
24 didn't see that.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you try and ask around to
1 learn who had done that to the prisoners who were under your guard?
2 A. No.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. I have another question
4 for you. Witness DE/1, you answered to a question put to you by, I think
5 it was Mr. Saxon, you said "Perhaps he," and you mentioned Radic and
6 Prcac, "received more specific instructions with respect to the
7 distribution of guard duty." Do you remember having said that?
8 A. No, I don't remember saying that.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know what you said in
10 respect to that? Otherwise, I shall go back a bit and ask you again.
11 Mr. Saxon said that Mr. Radic and Mr. Prcac said that Zeljko
12 Meakic had assigned, distributed the guard posts. You said here that
13 nobody distributed the guard posts that you did this spontaneously, you
14 each chose which guard post you wanted to stand at. And then you said, I
15 haven't got it written down exactly, but you said that perhaps, perhaps
16 they received their orders more specific orders or instructions.
17 You don't remember having said that?
18 A. I do remember.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You remember?
20 A. Yes. Yes. I remember now, sir. Yes, I do.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. My question is I should
22 like to know why did you think that they possibly received more specific
23 instructions? Why do you think that they could have been given more
24 specific detailed instructions?
25 A. Your Honour, the Judge, said that Zeljko Meakic, when they came on
1 duty on the shift said, "You're going there, you're going there, and
2 you're going there." Now, I don't know what he meant by that, but I
3 remember very well that that's how it went.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. But let's forget that
5 other part. All I would like to know is how do you explain the fact that
6 they could have received more specific orders, instructions? Do you
7 happen to know? Have you an idea about that?
8 A. I don't know that.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Do you remember the
10 first day that you arrived in the camp, the investigation centre, the
11 first time you got there?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. How were the guard posts
14 distributed to the guards themselves or namely to you?
15 A. I said at the beginning that we came in the morning and that we
16 were sent back home, and that the guard posts had already been assigned in
17 the morning shift. We came in the evening shift and went to the hangar.
18 We were sent back home to rest.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Who assigned the guard posts?
20 Who assigned the guards to their guard posts?
21 A. You mean in the morning session, shift?
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Your group, your team?
23 A. In the morning, the guard posts had been -- already been
24 established. When we came in the evening we just replaced the guards at
25 those guard posts.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, but who created the
2 guard posts?
3 A. I don't know that.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You don't know. Very well. But
5 when you arrived in the evening, the guard posts had already been
6 assigned, distributed; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you occupied a post
9 yourself. Which post, which guard post did you yourself occupy?
10 A. In the hangar.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you always have that same
12 guard post or did it change?
13 A. Inside the hangar, there were three or four guard posts within the
14 hangar and so we would go round in a circle, take turns.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How many days did you work on
16 that guard post in the centre, at the centre?
17 A. Almost until the very end, until it went on.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Witness DE/1, we have no
19 further questions for you. You have answered the questions put to you by
20 the Defence counsel, the Prosecution, and the Judges. We thank you very
21 much for having come to cooperate with us, and we wish you to safe journey
22 back to your place of residence and every success in your work.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.
1 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. At this time, the Prosecution
2 would offer for admission Exhibit 3/289 which contains actually three
3 pages, an English version of the solemn declaration that was shown to the
4 last witness, a copy of the original in B/C/S, and a declaration from
5 Mr. Inayat, an investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor explaining
6 how the Office of the Prosecutor obtained this document.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Masic.
8 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] No objections to this particular
9 exhibit, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Masic.
11 The exhibit indicated by the Prosecutor will therefore be admitted into
13 What's happening now, Mr. Simic?
14 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to apologise
15 in advance. According to our plan, we were supposed to hear these two
16 witnesses before lunch, but we went somewhat faster than we expected and
17 our next witness will be coming within half an hour. You saw my colleague
18 getting out of the courtroom. We tried to contact the witnesses' unit in
19 order for them to help us bring the witnesses. It's not a problem but I
20 think the witness will only come in about 40 minutes or so. I don't know
21 if it would be a problem for you to have a lunch break at this point, and
22 after the lunch break, I think we will be able to finish both witnesses.
23 I'm sorry we have upset the schedule a little bit but I hope we will be
24 able to finish.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, I think that you are
1 talking about Slavko Djukanovic and Milos Jankovic, the two remaining
2 witnesses for the day.
3 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It seems that I still don't have
5 the right list. I am a little bit jealous of Madam Somers. She always
6 seems to have the right list, unlike myself.
7 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Well, you can as well be jealous of
8 Madam Registrar. She has the right list. I will be able to give you the
9 correct version of the list during the break.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It's really not a problem,
11 Mr. Simic. So we have Slavko Djukanovic, and who is the other witness,
12 Slobodan Gajic, the one that I thought would be the first to be heard
13 today. Thank you. In order not to waste any time and in order to take
14 advantage of this unexpected break, I think that we should have our lunch
15 break, although your lunches may not be prepared. We will have our usual
16 50-minute break at this point.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. Can
22 you hear me?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will you please read the solemn
25 declaration that the usher is giving you.
1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
2 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: SLAVKO DJUKANOVIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness,
6 for coming here to testify. You will first answer questions that will be
7 put to you by Mr. Jovan Simic, and later on we will see about the order.
8 Mr. Simic, your witness.
9 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Examined by Mr. J. Simic:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. For the record, would you please state
12 your full name.
13 A. My name is Slavko Djukanovic.
14 Q. When and where were you born?
15 A. I was born in Bosanska Gradiska on the 3rd of December 1949.
16 Q. Are you married?
17 A. Yes, I am.
18 Q. Do you have any children?
19 A. I have three children, two sons and a daughter.
20 Q. Where do you currently reside?
21 A. I currently reside in Montenegro in the house belonging to my
22 family in Herceg Novi.
23 Q. Mr. Djukanovic, in April or May, that is, in the period preceding
24 the eruption of the conflict in the area, were you mobilised and, if so,
25 where were you mobilised?
1 A. Yes, I was. I was mobilised as part of the general mobilisation
2 at that time, and I was assigned to the Territorial Defence unit. During
3 that period of time, I was assigned to the Urije airport to a unit which
4 was providing security to some technical equipment there.
5 Q. Did you remain there with the same assignment throughout the war?
6 A. No, I didn't. This war assignment and my involvement in the whole
7 thing changed. So from that unit, I was transferred to the military press
8 centre because of the technical skills that I have and I was assigned to
9 the post of the cameraman.
10 Q. When were you transferred to the military press centre?
11 A. The military press centre was established in May, I don't know the
12 exact date, in 1992.
13 Q. Was it a part of some military organisational structure?
14 A. It was established as part of the military command of the 43rd
15 Motorised Brigade and the personnel with my kind of expertise were
16 assigned to that particular unit.
17 Q. Could you explain to us the way in which the military press centre
18 functioned, under whose command it was and what duties it had?
19 A. Upon its establishment as part of the 43rd Brigade, the military
20 centre was under the command 43rd Brigade and it consisted of several
21 people, three or four of us who worked there at the beginning and two more
22 people joined us later on. We worked exclusively for the military and
23 with the approval of the military command.
24 Q. What kind of assignment, specific assignment did you have in the
25 press centre?
1 A. As a cameraman, my job was to follow the events on a daily basis,
2 and I would be sent to carry out my daily task, daily assignment. Those
3 assignments were given to the journalists, my colleagues, directly, I
4 believe, from the people from the military leadership. So after those
5 briefings and meetings, we would take the equipment and go out in the
6 field and usually do some shooting there.
7 Q. Does it mean that you were not in charge of deciding on the topic
8 and the length of the footage?
9 A. No, I couldn't do that.
10 Q. Could you film something on your own?
11 A. No. I couldn't do anything on my own initiative.
12 Q. The military press centre, was it organised in such a way that the
13 members of the centre went out into the field individually or as part of a
15 A. We had teams. Usually the team would include the driver, the
16 cameraman and the journalist. Later on, it changed, but I believe that
17 for a certain period of time, we would have a specific driver, then later
18 on either myself or my colleague, the journalist, would be the driver. So
19 that's how the teams were structured when they went into the field.
20 Q. Do you know Mr. Dragoljub Prcac?
21 A. No, I do not.
22 Q. Did you ever visit the Investigation Centre in Omarska?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Can you tell us when and on how many occasions?
25 A. I don't recall the exact dates, but I know it was in the period of
1 time following the establishment of the military press centre after the
2 month of May and after the collection centre in Omarska, as we refer to
3 it, was established.
4 Q. What kind of an assignment did you have when you went to the
5 Omarska Investigation Centre?
6 A. I was sent to the Investigation Centre in Omarska with the
7 assignment to film certain material which was presented to us at Omarska,
8 and that material involved papers mostly, paperwork.
9 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear how many times you visited the
10 investigation centre.
11 A. Two times.
12 Q. Could you tell us where at the investigation centre you filmed the
13 material you have just mentioned?
14 A. We filmed in this very large building which was in the Omarska
15 centre. On the upper floor, there was a large office and I was presented
16 with some papers, and we made photographs of those papers.
17 Q. You told us that you had your own equipment?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. Did you actually physically have that equipment and where was that
21 A. When I was mobilised, the equipment was with me at the press
22 centre. I had a video camera, two ordinary cameras, and I kept them all
23 there because 80 per cent of the time I would spend there at the centre.
24 So the equipment was located at the press centre. We would take it from
25 there into the field, and after the assignment, we would take the
1 equipment back to the centre.
2 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. We don't
3 have any further questions for the witness at this point.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do either Defence counsel wish
5 to ask questions of the witness? No.
6 Madam Somers, I believe you will be conducting the
7 cross-examination. Your witness.
8 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:
10 Q. Mr. Djukanovic, you introduced yourself as Slavko Djukanovic. Do
11 you also use the name Slavisa?
12 A. Sometimes, by mistake, the name Slavisa would be used in a
13 document here and there, but mostly I'm referred to as Slavko Djukanovic.
14 Q. The Defence counsel for Mr. Prcac gave us, as what is called an
15 official note, and they talked about interviews with witness Slavisa
16 Djukanovic. Is that how you introduced yourself to Defence counsel, as
18 A. I don't think I did.
19 Q. But you have, in fact, had that name applied to you? You've
20 acknowledged that it's used or you use it, you say permutations, either
21 used by you or towards you, and you respond to it as if you were Slavko?
22 A. Well, yes. I mentioned the permutation from the earlier period of
23 time, and I referred to the time, long time before the war. Sometimes in
24 town people would call me Slavko and sometimes Slavisa. That's what I had
25 in mind.
1 Q. So that the person that was referred to by Defence counsel, and I
2 assume it was you, as Slavisa is the same as yourself, Slavko Djukanovic?
3 We can say that safely so that there is no confusion?
4 A. I think so, yes.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukanovic, I appreciate your clarifying that.
6 When did you actually start filming on behalf of either your military
7 assignment or on behalf of the officials of the Republika Srpska? I'll
8 say during the wartime period?
9 A. My services for the military press centre began with the day of
10 its establishment, that is, as off of the month of May 1992.
11 Q. When in the month of May, please?
12 A. I don't think I can tell you the exact date but it must have been
13 sometime around mid-May that the press centre was established. So I
14 probably -- not probably, I'm sure that I began working on the first day
15 of its existence.
16 Q. Are you a journalist as well as a cameraman, or are you a
17 photojournalist, how do you define your avocation?
18 A. Up until the war I used to work as a journalist, a photo reporter
19 and in the military press centre, I worked as a cameraman.
20 Q. And with whom were you affiliated or working before the war as a
21 photo reporter, please?
22 A. Before the war in Prijedor, we had a local paper there and I was
23 employed professionally there. The paper was called Kozarski Vijesnik and
24 that is where I worked before the war.
25 Q. Did you continue to work with Kozarski Vijesnik after the takeover
1 of 30th of April 1992, did you continue to work with them?
2 A. My obligations depended -- depending on the free time which
3 sometimes overlapped. So I did work from time to time for Kozarski
4 Vijesnik on their request. I would do photographs for them.
5 Q. After the takeover, after the Serb takeover of 30th of April if
6 you did?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. I'd like to ask you a little bit about some of your
9 colleagues. How many persons did you work with out of the press centre if
10 you know, and specifically I want to ask you about a couple of people, but
11 did you work with a Rade Mutic and a Zivko Ecim?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And did you work with Milenko Rajlic either with or for?
14 A. No. I don't know about the kind of duties he had, but I know him
15 personally. I know he was in journalism, but I didn't have any direct
16 contact with him nor did I ever work with him.
17 Q. When you went to Omarska, did you have some type of document or
18 pass that got you in?
19 A. We had passes, yes, which were issued by the military press
20 centre. We used them every time we went out into the field and also when
21 we had to identify ourselves when we went out to carry out an assignment
22 because there were lots of people who didn't know us even on the territory
23 of Republika Srpska. So we sometimes were required to identify ourselves.
24 Q. Did you go to Omarska with either Rade Mutic and/or Zivko Ecim?
25 A. Yes, with both of them.
1 Q. And in order to get into Omarska, the three of you had to have
2 some type of pass, that would be correct?
3 A. Yes, we had to have passes. But we never went all three of us. I
4 went with Zivko once and once with Rade, but there were never the three of
5 us together at one point in time.
6 Q. Was there any other Slavisa working for the press centre, the
7 military press centre, to your knowledge, who would have been sent to
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you recall, did you have ID numbers during the conflict that
11 would have been used on any documentation, if you know, if you remember?
12 A. Well, I had my ordinary identity card which was issued before the
13 war. It was an official document. I still had it at that time during the
14 war. But it had nothing to do with my activities with the military press
15 centre and my professional identification.
16 Q. Did you happen to save copies of the documents that authorised you
17 to get into Omarska camp? If you saved them, have you looked at them
19 A. No.
20 Q. Were you ever at Keraterm camp?
21 A. Yes. I was once detained in Keraterm.
22 Q. Were you in Keraterm camp in the capacity of photographer,
23 photojournalist or cameraman?
24 A. No. I was in Keraterm as a detainee, as a person who was taken
25 into custody there.
1 Q. So a witness who said that you were photographing bodies on the
2 25th of July in Keraterm would be mistaken, perhaps?
3 A. In Keraterm?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. Yes, absolutely so.
6 MS. SOMERS: May the usher be kind enough to distribute two
7 exhibits, please. Prosecution's 3/290 and 3/291.
8 Q. If you would look, please, first Mr. Djukanovic at Prosecution
9 Exhibit 3/290. This document from the Prijedor collection purports to
10 represent a pass or a request to the public security station personally to
11 the chief. It is dated 24 June 1992 and it requests issuance of permits
12 to work in the Omarska prison camp to be issued to the following
13 reporters. It names Rajlic. It names Mutic, whom you mentioned, Ecim,
14 and it has a name Slavska Djukalic. Is it more probable than not that it
15 was Djukanovic and it was a typographical error?
16 A. I think so.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukanovic. The information is signed by a Milenko
18 Rajlic as the information secretariat secretary and it comes from the ARK,
19 the Autonomous Region of Krajina Information Secretariat. Information
20 ministries or secretariats are often times used for what is termed
21 "propaganda" without attaching a negative or positive value, just
22 propaganda, pushing or promoting a cause. Would that be correct? Is that
23 your understanding?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. Now, did you have to get all your clearance to travel through
1 passes requested by the Ministry of Information which also covered
2 propaganda as we know it in this parlance?
3 A. I'm not quite sure I understand your question. We had passes to
4 go out into the field when we had to carry out our assignments.
5 Q. But to get specifically into Omarska camp it appears from this
6 document you needed a special pass. This pass is for -- is a permit to
7 allow you to work in Omarska so would any camp-related permit have to come
8 upon request, special request from the Ministry of Information?
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic?
10 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend is trying to make
11 the witness speculate. I think she should ask a clear question, whether
12 he knows or not, and not whether that would mean something.
13 MS. SOMERS: I'll be happy to rephrase it.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Okay.
15 MS. SOMERS:
16 Q. In order for you to get into Omarska, was your military
17 documentation or pass sufficient, or did you need to have special passes
18 from this ministry? Is that clearer to you? I hope it is.
19 A. I understand the question, and now I already told you that I had
20 gone to Omarska only with my military pass.
21 Q. If you would look, please, at 3/291, I just want to ask you
22 quickly a couple of questions about that. It is a document which purports
23 to have, if not your signature, then your printed name. Is that yours?
24 Where it's photos taken in May and June, 1992? Does that appear --
25 A. Yes, that's my signature.
1 Q. Okay. Thank you.
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. The particular document -- I'm sorry, photographs, that were
4 itemised, we don't have the photos here, but we are looking at the
5 description, if you would look, please, at 11, number 11, seized map of
6 Kozarac, defence plan; number 6, part of bedroom with reinforcements; 14,
7 Artukovic's brochures found at Muharem Ceric, former Prijedor SUP
8 employee; seized IDs -- number 16, seized IDs, Croatian, persons of
9 Kozarac. Is this an assignment that you were sent off on on behalf of any
10 particular organisation or body, to photograph these documents?
11 A. No. First of all, to make things clear, this is my handwriting
12 and this is my signature. I'm sorry, I don't have my glasses here, but I
13 know what you're talking about, and I know what photographs you're talking
14 about. So that was the part of my assignment that I had on that
15 occasion. I cannot remember all of the details regarding the passes and
16 IDs. The items were found after the attack on Kozarac, and I took
17 photographs of these items. Some of them were probably published in
18 Kozarski Vijesnik, and some remained at the military press centre, but as
19 I said, this was all part of my work obligation and the assignment that I
20 had there.
21 Q. Who assigned you --
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Somers, let me remind you
23 that your time is running out.
24 MS. SOMERS: Would you be kind enough to let me finish this line
25 of questioning?
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go ahead, but be mindful.
2 MS. SOMERS: I'm aware.
3 Q. Who sent to you to do this particular assignment, please?
4 A. What particular assignment do you have in mind?
5 Q. Collection of these?
6 A. This whole list or?
7 Q. Yes, this list, please.
8 A. I believe as regards this particular list, the assignment was not
9 carried out only on one day, on one occasion. I'm sorry could you please
10 read me the first few sentences? I'm sorry, I don't have my glasses here
11 with me. I cannot see the text.
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Trnopolje dugout with part of
13 found weaponry and documents, seized --
14 A. Yes, yes, sorry, just a second. I will tell you. The photographs
15 were done together with my colleague Rada Mutic, which was part of the
16 assignment we had immediately following the attack on Kozarac, when I
17 inspected the area and made the photographs. I myself saw the area. I
18 made photographs of the seized material, and I personally saw the dugout
19 so this is the material in question. Why the list was made, I don't know,
20 probably for the purposes of military records.
21 Q. One last question, please, and then I thank you very much for your
22 attention. An individual named (redacted), whom I believe you know,
23 indicated there were a number of bodies filmed in Omarska, perhaps around
24 the area of the "red house" but anyway a number of dead bodies of Muslims
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic?
2 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think that
3 (redacted) said that. At least that's not what I remember him saying.
4 We should perhaps have a look at the transcript and read exactly what his
5 words were. I think that it is very dangerous to speculate. I don't
6 think he said that. I think that he said that he had seen that something
7 should be filmed. Of course, I'm not quoting him. I don't remember his
8 exact words. I don't think we should be interpreting his words at this
9 point. We should have a look at the transcript.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.
11 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I'm not quoting from the transcript.
12 I'm asking a question about an individual named (redacted), not from the
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, do you wish to add
16 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has
17 nothing against the question about (redacted) being asked. However, the
18 question is actually what his words were. So I think that the Prosecution
19 can ask questions such as whether you know him, whether you know that he
20 said something, but not whether he actually said those words because I
21 don't think he did.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please bear this in mind, Madam
23 Somers, when you ask your questions.
24 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.
25 Q. Documents in possession of the Office of the Prosecutor have
1 indicated (redacted) has said that you and Drago Prcac at Omarska
2 videoed -- you videoed, in the company of Drago Prcac, bodies of dead
3 Muslim civilians and that these photographs, without identifying
4 ethnicity, were used for Serb propaganda indicating that they were the
5 bodies of dead Serbs. The question to you --
6 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jovan Simic?
8 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm absolutely
9 certain now that (redacted) never said that. The document my learned
10 colleague is referring to --
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, could you
12 restate your question? "Did you ever go to do such and such a thing for
13 the object of filming dead bodies?" And if so, then you can continue.
14 Why do you have to introduce (redacted) and say that he should do such
15 and such a thing. Ask a direct question in a clear, concrete and concise
17 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, may I
18 complete what I was saying because it has been recorded in the
19 transcript. (redacted) never mentioned that before this honorable
20 Tribunal. We have the documents and Your Honours don't. He said that in
21 his witness statement and it was never mentioned in court. We are now
22 using material that only the Prosecution knows about, and there is no
23 reason for these things to be stated. It was never included in the
24 transcript because it was never stated in the courtroom.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, we are going
1 to enter into a long discussion here. Now, have you got an answer -- a
2 response to the question? Either you are going to quote what the person
3 said and then ask your question or I think that you should ask the
4 question in the way that I have proposed. Otherwise, this will lead us to
5 a discussion into a document that the Chamber is unaware of. So please
6 bear that in mind, Ms. Susan Somers, and go ahead with your question.
7 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. This is again to test
8 witness credibility. It is not taken from the transcript. I want to
9 reaffirm that.
10 Q. Do you know a photo journalist named (redacted)
11 with whom you may have done some photography earlier?
12 A. I personally know (redacted) from the early war period.
13 Q. During the time that Omarska camp was in operation, let's say from
14 the middle to the latter part of July, 1992, were you present at Omarska
15 filming any -- anything at all at Omarska camp?
16 A. I personally did not bring the camera into the camp at all in
17 Omarska, video camera. I never took it in with me.
18 Q. Was there videoing there and were you present -- whether or not
19 you personally took a camera in, were you present when there was some
20 videoing there in Omarska during that time period?
21 A. I can only speak in my own name. And for the period in which, on
22 two occasions, I was in Omarska, for that period, so the two occasions
23 that I went to Omarska, I did not take my video camera with me, nor did I
24 see anybody filming with an video camera in my presence. So the answer is
1 Q. What were you doing at Omarska on those two occasions for which
2 you had, apparently, a pass?
3 A. On both occasions, I was filming the written documents,
4 certificates, and so on. For example, certificates, private persons would
5 give certain money for the SDA organisation and so these would be
6 certificates certifying that such and such a person donated so much money
7 to such and such an organisation. So I would film, take pictures of
8 documents and certificates and that kind of thing.
9 Q. You indicated you did not have a video camera. Did you have a
10 still camera, a regular camera, when you were there?
11 A. Yes, of course. Both times I took a still camera.
12 Q. With that still camera, did you take photos of any dead bodies?
13 A. No. No.
14 Q. So if the allegation that I made or the comment that I indicated
15 earlier about using photos taken during your visit and labelling them Serb
16 dead as opposed to Muslim dead. Would that be something that you had no
17 knowledge to at all?
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jovan Simic.
19 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really don't know, I
20 apologise, but where is this all leading to? How come we're talking about
21 dead bodies now that you have taken photos of Serb propaganda, and I'm
22 very surprised that my learned colleague didn't use the phrase "greater
23 Serbian propaganda." Now, you drew my learned colleague's attention not
24 to do things of this kind and now we see them done again. I am fully
25 respectful of the time, but I must object.
13 blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, I think that
2 we are here to contribute to peace. I think that is an object of the
3 Tribunal. And I think that some expressions used in a certain way can be
4 detrimental to that objective. That's my first observation.
5 The second observation, I gave you a bit of time, but let me state
6 that you abused it because you have already taken more than 12 minutes.
7 So where are you going to stop? When are you going to conclude?
8 MS. SOMERS: If I could get an answer to this, Your Honour, that
9 would be my last question. I think it's a fair question.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but a properly-posed
11 question. Not the type of question in the way you formulated it. Restate
12 your question, and that will be the last one.
13 MS. SOMERS: If Your Honour feels the term propaganda although it
14 is the term that is officially used in military parlance, I will say for
15 Serb political or military goals.
16 Q. And the question, I'm sorry, there's probably a gap in your memory
17 but would there have been -- would you have had any knowledge of
18 photographs taken of dead Muslim civilians that may have been used for
19 Serb political or military goals during that period; yes or no?
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic.
21 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the question be
22 asked more precisely? Is that the photograph? Is that the photograph
23 that Mr. Djukanovic took or some unidentified photograph? Is it not
24 simpler to ask whether -- do you know whether dead bodies were
25 photographed or not?
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic, I don't think
2 we are going to get out of this predicament. Are you going to ask the
3 question in your re-examination? You will have a chance. You can do
4 that. Can you ask during the re-examination?
5 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Otherwise we are we
7 are going to unleash a debate here, what can be asked and what cannot be
8 asked. Ms. Susan Somers is going to complete her question, reformulate
9 it. You are going to have the opportunity to redirect. And I said from
10 the beginning that I am here with a very practical rule that I learnt very
11 early on in my career. Treat all the parties equitably. That is my first
12 rule. Second, always give the other party the opportunity to react to and
13 contest what the other side has said.
14 So Ms. Susan Somers will ask her final question. You will have
15 your opportunity to redirect and ask your own question.
16 Please go ahead.
17 MS. SOMERS:
18 Q. Do you remember my question, Mr. Djukanovic? I'm sorry that it's
19 not able to stay fresh, but do you recall it? If you don't, I'll give it
20 one last shot. You tell me.
21 A. Could you repeat it, please, if that's all right.
22 Q. During the times that you were at Omarska and still photographs
23 were taken that you took or if you are aware, perhaps, of any other form
24 of recording being video or otherwise, were any photos of bodies of dead
25 Muslim civilians at Omarska taken that were later, to your knowledge, used
1 to represent bodies of dead Serb persons for political or military
2 purposes on behalf of the Republika Srpska. That's my question. Is it
4 A. I think it's clear, yes. In Omarska, on the two occasions that I
5 went there, I did not photograph the bodies of dead Muslims, either the
6 individual body of a Muslim or any corpses whatsoever for that matter.
7 Second, I can't say whether I heard or didn't hear. I didn't hear. I
8 didn't see. I didn't take the photographs. I think that is the essence
9 and substance of my answer to your question.
10 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Mr. Djukanovic. And thank you, Your
11 Honour, for extending the extra time.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Susan Somers.
13 You're going to have pay that credit in advance.
14 Mr. Jovan Simic, please go ahead.
15 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The Defence has no additional
16 questions. I think that the witness, himself, has clarified matters.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Judge
18 Fouad Riad, no questions? Madam Judge Wald, any questions?
19 Questioned by the Court:
20 JUDGE WALD: I just have one to clarify this debate for me.
21 You have very clearly testified that on no -- none of your visits
22 to Omarska did you take any form of pictures whether they were still or
23 video of dead bodies. That's right, isn't it? You testified that you did
24 not take any pictures of dead bodies with any kind of camera, still or
25 video; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. Yes, that's what I said.
2 JUDGE WALD: My only question to you, just to make it absolutely
3 clear is: To your knowledge, on any of those visits to Omarska, did any
4 other member of your military press team take any pictures of dead
6 A. A direct question, a direct answer. I don't think any of my
7 colleagues did that. I have no proof that they did and my personal
8 opinion is that none of my colleagues did do that.
9 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge
12 Mr. Djukanovic, I, too, have a question for you. You said that
13 you went to Omarska at least twice and you said that it was to take
14 pictures of documents and those documents, in principle, were in a large
15 building. Now I have two questions. You went twice to take pictures of
16 the same documents?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why a second time? Why did you
19 go a second time to film the same documents?
20 A. They weren't the same documents. As time passed, there were more
21 documents. As the documents were collected, they would call us from time
22 to time. So the first time, to be quite frank, we pictured one part of
23 the documents. The second time we took pictures of other documents as
24 evidence, as material.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see. I understand. Now, my
1 second question: The big building that you mentioned, can you give us a
2 more specific idea as to where that building was located? Where was that
3 big building, could you tell us? Could you explain to us where this
4 building that you mentioned was?
5 A. I think I'll be able to explain. It is the large plateau at
6 Omarska, and I think it is a well-known building because it was in the
7 middle of that plateau. It is dominant on the plateau, and that's the big
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well.
10 Mr. Djukanovic, we have no more questions for you. We thank you very much
11 for having come, and we wish you a safe journey back to your place of
12 residence and success in your work. The usher will now escort you out of
13 the courtroom. Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too. Merci bien.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see it's Mr. Masic on his feet
18 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence calls
19 its next witness, Dr. Gajic. Dr. Slobodan Gajic.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Dr. Slobodan
22 Gajic, can you hear me?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, Your Honour. Good
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the
1 solemn declaration handed to you by the usher. Please go ahead.
2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
3 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: SLOBODAN GAJIC
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Please be seated and
7 try and sit comfortably. Approach the microphone, please.
8 Let me start off by thanking you for coming. You are going to
9 start off by answering questions put to you by Mr. Masic.
10 Mr. Masic, your witness.
11 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Examined by Mr. Masic:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Gajic.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. For the record, could you give us your full name, please.
16 A. My name is Gajic, Dr. Slobodan.
17 Q. When were you born?
18 A. On the 19th of January 1959 in Banja Luka.
19 Q. Where do you live now?
20 A. In Banja Luka.
21 Q. You are a doctor by profession?
22 A. Yes, I am a specialist in general medicine.
23 Q. What were you by profession in 1992?
24 A. In 1992, I worked in the health centre of Jajce and I was a GP, a
25 general practitioner there.
1 Q. Why did you stop working in the Jajce health centre?
2 A. On the 3rd of April 1992, I was discharged because of my ethnicity
3 just as the other people of the same religious faith were discharged from
4 the health centre in Jajce, and then I went to Banja Luka.
5 Q. Does that mean that you lost your job because you were a Serb?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. What happened in Banja Luka to you after that?
8 A. After that, some 50 days later, I had no job. I was not assigned
9 to any work. And on the 25th of May, I reported to the military unit in
10 Banja Luka and was mobilised into a brigade, that is to say, the health
11 section sanitary corps, medical corps of that brigade. It was the 1st
12 Brigade, 1st Armoured Brigade.
13 Q. Who was the Commander of the medical corps at the time?
14 A. He was the Lieutenant Colonel Gliso Kovacevic.
15 Q. Were you assigned as -- were you assigned to Omarska?
16 A. Yes. At the beginning of June, I was sent with my driver, with my
17 ambulance, military ambulance, to Omarska to the health centre in Omarska
18 where I joined the doctors working there. And I was met by the head,
19 Dr. Slavica Popovic, the head of the health centre, with her colleagues
20 and nurses and medical staff and all the other technicians working there.
21 Q. How did you organise your work in the Omarska health centre?
22 A. In the Omarska health centre, work was organised in the following
23 way, we catered to the civilian population, the military and the police
24 force. And the lady doctor, I didn't know at the time, informed me that
25 an investigation centre had been set up and that we would have to do that
1 work too.
2 And we decided how to incorporate work in the investigation centre
3 as well with our regular job at the health centre.
4 Q. Could you please explain to the Tribunal what arrangements you
5 made with the lady doctor and what she -- how she told you to cover the
6 health centre -- why she told to you cover the health centre?
7 A. She told me to cover the centre because I am from a different
8 region, I come from a different area, and I didn't know the people who
9 were in the investigation centre. I was a man, I was wearing a military
10 uniform, I had a military vehicle, which was fairly well equipped, it had
11 four beds for the transport of the wounded, and two seats. We had a lot
12 of sanitary material, medical material, so I accepted to do that, to help
13 out my female colleague, as I was a man. I decided that I would do that.
14 Q. How did you organise your visits to the Omarska Investigation
15 Centre while you were in the Omarska health centre?
16 A. Well, at about 7.30 or 8.00, I would go with a driver and one or
17 two nurses and myself took the ambulance to the centre. We went to visit
18 the centre practically every day.
19 Q. How did you organise the health protection of people in the
20 investigation centre of Omarska itself?
21 A. Well, in the centre itself, we had our first aid kits and we
22 supplemented these with medications that we didn't have. So we got these
23 from the Omarska health centre pharmacy. We would go to the Omarska
24 health centre pharmacy for analgetics anti-pyretics, cardiotonics, drugs
25 for rheumatism, for asthma, bronchitis, abdominal pains, ulcers, and so on
1 and so forth. We could get medication from the Omarska health centre's
2 pharmacy. We also had ampules of medicines we administered to
4 Q. Doctor, but in the investigation centre, how was this health
5 service organised? How did people who needed medical aid and assistance
6 come to you? How did you know who needed treatment and who you needed to
7 examine? Could you tell us?
8 A. The guards were given the task of sounding out the detainees in
9 their area, to say which people required medical examination and medicines
10 and bring them to us, to the locality where we were stationed.
11 Q. Does that mean that every morning, you examined people who came to
12 you asking for medical help?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Doctor, at that time, generally speaking, what was the medication
15 and drug situation and all the other medical material for the area?
16 A. Well, it was common knowledge that there were a lot of shortages
17 in medical equipment, medications, drugs and so on. But to begin with,
18 our supplies were better, because at that time -- but at that time it was
19 difficult to get medicines from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. We
20 had been cut off and we had a shortage of certain medicines. But
21 antibiotics, analgetics and some other medicines for asthma, cardiotonics,
22 we did have those. We had them -- enough of those. But insulin was a
23 problem, I remember.
24 Q. Was there any kind of preventive health protection in the Omarska
25 Investigation Centre?
1 A. Well, prevention always existed, and had not preventive measures
2 existed, epidemics might have broken out. So we contacted the
3 epidemiological service in Prijedor and they undertook all the necessary
4 measures by their nurses and technicians, and measures were taken and
5 epidemics were prevented from erupting.
6 Q. In front of the restaurant, was there a receptacle of some kind
7 and were the detainees able to wash their hands in it in this basin,
8 before they went into have lunch?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. And did the receptacle, the basin contain a chlorine lime
12 A. Yes, it did.
13 Q. How long did you stay in Omarska?
14 A. Until about the middle of July.
15 Q. Where did you go then?
16 A. After that, for the purposes of my military unit, I was
17 transferred to another front.
18 Q. Doctor, during the time you spent in Omarska, did you ever hear
19 mention or see something about Dragoljub Prcac or did you see him? Did
20 you hear about him and did you ever see him in fact?
21 A. I got to know Dragoljub in a very specific situation when in the
22 health service itself, Omarska health service, a dead person of Serb
23 ethnicity was brought in to us and it was claimed at that time that he had
24 committed suicide. But we doubted that it was not -- there was a doubt
25 that it was not suicide. And two men came, amongst them was Dragoljub,
1 one of them was Dragoljub, and I met him then for the first time, and they
2 did their part of the job and they established that, in fact, it was a
3 killing and not suicide. But I never met the man again, that is to say,
4 Dragoljub again, after that.
5 Q. Does that mean that Dragoljub Prcac and another man made an
6 investigation, crime scene investigation, in the health centre? Is that
7 right? Did they investigate the dead body in the health centre?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Doctor, can you remember when that was?
10 A. I think it was the beginning of July.
11 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, doctor. Your
12 Honours, I have no further questions for the witness.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would any of the other Defence
14 counsel like to ask any questions? Yes, Mr. Deretic?
15 Cross-examined by Deretic:
16 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President just two brief
18 Q. Doctor, you said a moment ago that on the 3rd of April, 1992, you
19 were discharged because of your religious affiliation?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. And that you were working in Jajce at the time; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, that's correct, that's right.
23 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, under whose control
24 already at that time was the town of Jajce?
25 A. It was under the control of the Muslims.
1 Q. And can you just tell us here today to what ethnic group does the
2 town of Jajce belong?
3 A. To the Croatian Muslim federation.
4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
6 Mr. Deretic.
7 The Prosecution? Who is going to examine the witness? Mr. Saxon
8 are you going to conduct the cross-examination? Yes, please go ahead.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:
10 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Dr. Gajic, I apologise that I cannot pronounce names very well in
12 your language. Can you please give me the name again of the town that
13 you're from?
14 A. I'm from Banja Luka. I was born in Banja Luka. And before the
15 war, I worked and lived in Jajce, which is 75 kilometres away from Banja
17 Q. In October of 1992, Jajce fell to Serb military forces; is that
19 A. That's true, yes.
20 Q. Now, you mentioned that -- you testified that in early June, you
21 were assigned to the Omarska health centre, and at the time you learned
22 that there was an investigation centre that had been set up at Omarska and
23 that at that time, it was --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- decided to incorporate health care at the Omarska Detention
1 Centre as well into your work. Are you sure that it was early June when
2 you arrived at Omarska?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you work at the Omarska health centre with a man by the name
5 of Ljuban Andzic?
6 A. As far as I know, Ljuban Andzic was not employed at the health
7 centre. He was a member of the Civil Defence, but he did go there very
8 often and he cooperated with the investigation centre.
9 Q. Ljuban Andzic recalls you arriving on the scene in Omarska in the
10 second half of June, towards the end of June, or perhaps the first days of
11 July. He said he couldn't quite remember the date. This is on page 7537
12 of the transcript. Was Mr. Ljuban Andzic wrong about that?
13 A. Well, I think he made a mistake but I myself am not sure about the
14 exact date either. I know that I arrived in the first days of June.
15 Probably those who sent me there know about it.
16 Q. Can you be a little bit more specific about the kind of work that
17 you did when you went to the Omarska camp? You described how you would
18 take the first aid kits and the medications that you could obtain from the
19 Omarska health centre pharmacy, and then that guards would sound out
20 prisoners who needed some medical assistance. Then can you describe more
21 specifically, more precisely, what exactly you would do and where you
22 would be when you did it?
23 A. During the first two or three days, I would actually enter the
24 hangars, that were very crowded, and it was difficult to work because it
25 was summertime and it was stuffy in there, and then it occurred to us,
1 because the weather was fine, that the guards should perhaps take out
2 several desks and chairs outside and we had some material that we could
3 use outside. So in those days, we conducted our examinations outside in
4 the shade on the lawn.
5 Q. I see. So you were in those days, after the first couple days
6 when prisoners, when the ill prisoners were brought outside, you were --
7 you would be examining and treating these prisoners in a shaded area? Is
8 that correct? With some desks?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. But this was essentially in the open? People could walk by and
11 see what you were doing?
12 A. Well, mostly those who didn't request for examination, they
13 couldn't come because the guards didn't want any trouble. They wanted the
14 area around us to be calm so that we could concentrate on our work.
15 Q. All right. But the guards could walk by you, see what you were
16 doing? Is that a fair statement?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did anybody ever criticise you for providing this medical
19 assistance to these prisoners, most of whom were non-Serbs?
20 A. No, never. Nobody was ever able to influence, to affect, my work
21 in any way, nor did I receive any such criticism.
22 Q. Were you reprimanded, transferred or ever punished in any way --
23 A. No.
24 Q. -- for providing this assistance?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Now, did you ever see Dragoljub Prcac at the Omarska camp when you
2 were there, providing medical assistance to the detainees there?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you know a man named Miroslav Kvocka?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How about Milojica Kos?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Mladjo Radic?
9 A. No.
10 Q. How about a man named Zoran Zigic?
11 A. No.
12 Q. How about a man named Zeljko Meakic?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Would it be fair to say that the first time that you went to the
15 Omarska Detention Centre would have been sometime in early June, 1992? Is
16 that about right, approximately?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Approximately when would have been the last time that you went to
19 the Omarska camp?
20 A. I cannot remember exactly when it was but it must have been
21 sometime around the 10th or the 12th of July.
22 Q. So you only spent about a month providing medical assistance at
23 the Omarska camp?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. Do you recall any prisoners with any specific injuries that
1 required treatment, visible injuries?
2 A. There were many individuals who had been beaten up, many people
3 who had haematoma, scratches, various kinds of injuries. I could see
4 that, yes.
5 Q. You said that there were many people who had been beaten up.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How did you know that? Did you ask the prisoners what happened to
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. And what did those prisoners tell you?
11 A. Their answers were usually very brief and there's nothing -- there
12 was nothing interesting, particularly interesting about them. They would
13 simply tell me that they had been beaten up.
14 Q. Did they tell you who it was who had beaten them up?
15 A. No.
16 Q. It was pretty hot in Prijedor during the summer of 1992, wasn't
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, this Trial Chamber has heard testimony from many witnesses
20 that often, there would be hundreds of persons sitting or lying on an area
21 that was known as the pista. Did you also see those prisoners on the
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. From a medical point of view, did you feel that this was an
25 appropriate way to keep prisoners?
1 A. In my view, it was not adequate, but there was nothing I could do
2 to change it, that is, that it was not appropriate.
3 Q. Did you try to do anything to change that situation?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You mentioned the importance of preventive health protection and
6 you mentioned that you or your colleagues contacted the epidemiological
7 service in Prijedor. Did --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you contact a doctor by the name of Dusanka Andelkovic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what did you tell Dr. Dusanka Andelkovic?
12 A. Well, I told her that there was a huge number of people there,
13 that the temperatures were high, that she should undertake all necessary
14 measures in that respect. She's a physician herself so she knew very well
15 what she had to do. It was enough for me to tell you that epidemiological
16 measures needed to be taken and she, as a specialist, knew what those
17 measures included.
18 I think that she did a very good job, and that she prevented
19 epidemics from outbreaking.
20 Q. Really. Did she come to the Omarska camp to assist the physicians
21 and medical personnel working there?
22 A. I don't know the doctor personally. She may have been there, but
23 I didn't see her there. We had telephone contact.
24 Q. When you spoke with Dr. Andelkovic on the telephone, did she tell
25 you that she would do something or try to do something to address the
1 problem at the Omarska Investigation Centre?
2 A. Yes. She said that she would do her best to --
3 Q. So she did not tell you that, for instance, the Omarska
4 Investigation Centre was outside her jurisdiction?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You mentioned that there were problems with medical supplies
7 during the summer of 1992, and you've discussed different injuries that
8 you saw on detainees, medical problems that you had to address there, that
9 prisoners told you that they had been beaten. As an experienced physician
10 assigned to an army medical unit, did it ever occur to you that perhaps in
11 terms of efficiency and the economic use of those precious medical
12 supplies during wartime that it might make more sense for the prisoners to
13 be treated better? For example, not to be abused and beaten and left out
14 in the hot summer sun. Would better treatment of the detainees have
15 conserved more medical supplies?
16 A. Of course it would, but my abilities were not such so that I could
17 do their work.
18 Q. While you were providing assistance at the Omarska centre through
19 the -- sometime in the middle of July, did you have sufficient medical
20 supplies to do your work through the 12th of July, approximately?
21 A. Mostly, yes, I did, except for the shortage of insulin which was
22 lacking throughout the Banja Luka area at the time.
23 Q. Ljuban Andzic, who testified here on behalf of Miroslav Kvocka,
24 said that the Omarska health centre had a stock of reserve medical
25 supplies that lasted from the end of May to around the 15th of June. This
1 is on page 7595 to 7596 of the transcript. And Mr. Andzic testified that
2 after that when the members of the Omarska health centre went to the
3 Omarska camp, they went empty-handed. Those were his words. Did you
4 comment as to why his recollection is so different from yours?
5 A. Mr. Andzic is not a physician, and he had only very restricted
6 access to medicines, almost no access whatsoever. What he could do was --
7 what he could have were various disinfectants and things like that. I
8 don't even know why he spoke about such things because he's not a
9 physician. He could not have access to medicines at all.
10 Q. So even though Mr. Andzic was trained as a physician, he was not
11 permitted to administer medicines at the Omarska Investigation Centre? Is
12 that your testimony?
13 A. No, he is not a physician. He only completed the secondary
14 medical school. He's a so-called medical technician, paramedic.
15 Q. Did you see or did you get to know any physicians who were
16 detained at the Omarska camp?
17 A. Yes, I did, but I don't remember their names. They were most --
18 it was the nurses who worked with me at the time who would tell me the
19 names of those persons, but I forgot those names. I wasn't interested in
20 them at the time.
21 Q. Let me see if I can refresh your recollection. Does the name Eso
22 Sadikovic ring a bell?
23 A. Yes, I've heard that name. Yes, he's a doctor, a physician.
24 Q. Was he one of the physicians who you saw at the Omarska camp?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. How about Dr. Jusuf Pasic, does that ring any bells?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Dr. Enes Begic, does that ring any bells?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Dr. Osman Mahmuljin, does that ring a bell?
6 A. I think I heard that name but I cannot remember exactly at this
8 Q. This Trial Chamber has heard testimony that Dr. Sadikovic was last
9 seen alive at the Omarska camp in 1992 in August of that year. Have you
10 made any inquiries as to what might have happened to this former
12 A. This is the first time I hear that he's no longer alive. I didn't
13 know his whereabouts. I didn't inquire about him.
14 Q. Doctor, were you ever in the Keraterm Investigation Centre or
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were you ever in the Trnopolje centre?
18 A. No.
19 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
21 Mr. Masic.
22 Re-examined by Mr. Masic:
23 Q. Just a very brief question. Doctor, did you personally know
24 Dr. Eso Sadikovic?
25 A. No, I did not know any single person in Omarska until the day I
1 arrived there.
2 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. No further
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. Masic.
5 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.
6 Questioned by the Court:
7 JUDGE RIAD: Dr. Gajic, good afternoon.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 JUDGE RIAD: I just have a question or two to ask you. You
10 mentioned that the task of the guards was to sound out the detainees who
11 needed medical assistance and to bring them to you. Were you allowed,
12 you, yourself, to go around and see the people, the sick people in the
13 centre, in the camp, the investigation centre, or you had to wait until
14 they bring to you what they wanted to bring?
15 A. I was permitted to go around. However, upon my arrival, people
16 from various parts of the centre were already being brought to me. So we
17 would start the work immediately, and the next guard would bring the next
18 group and so on.
19 JUDGE RIAD: So you had no access to the rooms or to places where
20 you can, you, yourself, find out who is sick or who is in pain?
21 A. At the beginning I did, and that is what I was doing. However,
22 the places were crowded. There were lots of sick and wounded people.
23 Everybody needed something. They kept asking me lots of questions. I
24 could have remained in one room for hours. And later on, I was just
25 trying to reduce that pressure on myself.
1 JUDGE RIAD: This pressure because you were the only man, the only
2 doctor for all the camp?
3 A. No. Other doctors visited the camp including Slavica Popovic,
4 Nada Ljubic, Jasenka Mijatovic, and Vlado Radic, and others whom I don't
5 remember because I had already gone. But I was the one who went there
6 most. I was the regular one.
7 JUDGE RIAD: And when you walked around the camp, did you see the
8 conditions of living of the camp and how much they would affect the health
9 of the detainees? Were you able to judge?
10 A. The conditions were extremely bad. That's all I can say.
11 JUDGE RIAD: Well, we are not experts, but what do you mean by
12 "bad," could you just try to indicate?
13 A. It was a rather small area with a great number of people. There
14 were no adequate conditions provided for sleeping, bathing, changing of
15 clothes, personal hygiene in general.
16 JUDGE RIAD: And according to you, what would this lead to after a
18 A. I don't understand your question.
19 JUDGE RIAD: These conditions, what would you expect to happen to
20 people who live in such conditions?
21 A. Well, of course such bad conditions additionally affected their
22 health which deteriorated as a result of those conditions.
23 JUDGE RIAD: What kind of epidemics would that lead to?
24 A. What kind of epidemics? Various infectious diseases, for
1 JUDGE RIAD: Such as?
2 A. Including enterocolitis.
3 JUDGE RIAD: When some people are already sick, would it be
4 sometimes fatal to live in such conditions for lack of medicine, people
5 with heart disease, with such conditions?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, doctor.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge
9 Riad. Madam Judge Wald has the floor.
10 JUDGE WALD: Doctor, you mentioned that you did have contact and
11 conversations with the doctor at the epidemiology centre and that you
12 thought that she did a good job of preventing serious epidemics. I'm
13 wondering if you would give us an example of anything that was done at the
14 camp to your knowledge along these preventive, epidemiological lines? I
15 know somebody mentioned there was a place where they could dip their hands
16 into before they went in to eat. But other than that, can you mention any
17 measures that you're aware of that were taken to prevent epidemics?
18 A. One of the measures was a measure in the kitchen, before having
19 meals, they would have to place their hands in a disinfectant. And also,
20 I know that a vehicle with water came to wash down the compound. Then in
21 the rooms, the rooms were disinfected. Other measures were undertaken in
22 the kitchen itself. Persons working in the kitchen were also told to take
23 extra measures, not contact any people with infectious diseases or
24 anything of that kind.
25 JUDGE WALD: Were you aware, along these lines, of any accessible
1 facilities for washing hands near the lavatories? We have had a great
2 deal of testimony about many of the lavatories not working and that they
3 were stopped up and various other unhealthy conditions. Were you aware of
4 there being any measures taken? Because that would obviously be a source
5 of infection for the kinds of diseases like enterocolitis that you
7 A. Yes, from time to time, the -- these areas would be stopped up but
8 workers would come every day and try to prevent the sewage system from
9 becoming clogged up.
10 JUDGE WALD: Okay. In the course of your visits and your
11 examination of the people that the guards brought to you, did you find
12 some that were sufficiently seriously ill or injured that they needed to
13 be treated in a medical facility such as a hospital and if so, what did --
14 were you able to do about those people?
15 A. For each individual for whom I considered that hospitalisation was
16 necessary at that time, the Prijedor hospital, I would place that
17 individual in the ambulance with the driver and nurse and send the person
18 off to the health institution and hospitalise the person.
19 JUDGE WALD: What would you estimate, over the more than a month
20 that you were providing these services, how many people, would you just
21 estimate, roughly, you did put in the ambulance and see that they were
22 sent to the hospital?
23 A. We kept a regular protocol. It's difficult for me to talk about
24 figures. I can't remember exactly. But we sent at least 20 people off to
25 a medical institution.
1 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Twenty people in the period of something over
2 a month that you were there?
3 A. As I say, I don't know the exact figure, although it was recorded
4 in the logbook.
5 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Was there any provision for you or somebody
6 from the health centre being called in case of an emergency? I mean, you
7 came, you tell us, on a fairly regular basis, but suppose somebody gets an
8 attack of something serious in the middle of the night. Was there some
9 access to emergency services when that happened?
10 A. We were on call 24 hours, and in cases of that kind, we would go
11 to the spot.
12 JUDGE WALD: Did that, to your knowledge, happen very often? Did
13 you make many such emergencies -- you or other people at the centre make
14 any such emergency, unscheduled calls out there to treat these kinds of
16 A. Emergencies? At least once a day, in addition to our regular
17 visits, we would go to the camp at least one more time a day.
18 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, some of the medicines that you listed,
19 among which were stomach medicines, and obviously one of the problems
20 we've heard much about were cases like diarrhea and various other things
21 that can happen when people are crowded together and the hygienic
22 facilities are not totally adequate. Were you -- in those kinds of cases,
23 were you able to or did you make any recommendations to the people that
24 ran the camp about special diets? I mean, we had lots of testimony that
25 these people got one meal a day and it was -- the same meal was prepared
1 and dished out to everyone. What did you do in cases of people who had
2 diseases or conditions that required some kind of special dietary care?
3 A. As far as medicines for stomach problems are concerned, we treated
4 people who had already had ulcers, being that -- people suffering from
5 ulcer, and we had a list of those people and had medicines for things of
6 that kind. For enterogastritis, we didn't have sufficient quantities of
7 medicines, so we weren't always able to come to their assistance. As far
8 as the food and the kitchens, we couldn't influence that much.
9 JUDGE WALD: So if you did, as I'm somewhat familiar with this, if
10 you did have a stomach condition, I think you as a doctor would probably
11 agree, medicine can help but usually it's medicine in conjunction with
12 some kind of dietary regime. So is it your testimony that you were not
13 able to influence in any way the dietary regime of people who might have
14 conditions that needed special diets?
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE WALD: Okay.
17 A. Our only way out in situations of that kind would be to send the
18 people to the Prijedor hospital. That's the only thing that we could do,
19 and we did so in a few cases.
20 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Did you treat some of the women detainees
21 during the period you were there? Did you have some women patients as
22 well as men? There were a much smaller number of women but we have been
23 told there were somewhere in the area of 30 or 40 women there. Did you
24 treat any of those?
25 A. While I was there, as far as I know, there were two women, and I
1 remember on one occasion one of those two women working in the kitchen had
2 injured a finger and we had to give her first aid for the finger. That's
3 the first time I saw that individual and never saw her again.
4 JUDGE WALD: So you -- did you ever have occasion to treat any
5 women for the effects of forced sexual intercourse or what might have been
7 A. As far as I know, that did not occur at all, but as I say, while I
8 was there, there were two women, and they didn't come to me for a problem
9 of that kind.
10 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question to you is: As a physician,
11 did you consider that the detainees at Omarska Investigation Centre were
12 receiving adequate medical care? As an overall -- an overall conclusion?
13 A. The medical care was not perhaps adequate at that time and under
14 those conditions and circumstances, but it couldn't have been better,
15 given the circumstances.
16 JUDGE WALD: By professional medical standards with which you've
17 been educated, is it fair to say you would not say, if asked straight out,
18 were the people there receiving adequate medical care, you would not say
19 yes, would you?
20 A. The people that came to me for help and who were able to -- for
21 which we were able to come by medications, they were taken care of.
22 JUDGE WALD: No. I understand that, but as a doctor, and looking
23 at it from patients' point of view, who have some medical conditions, and
24 leaving out whether or not war conditions and war shortages and everything
25 else might have explained or justified reasons why more fulsome care could
1 not be given, would your conclusion still as a doctor be that these
2 detainees, based on your observations, knowledge, over that month and a
3 half, receiving adequate medical care?
4 A. Well, as a physician, it's very difficult to work without a
5 laboratory and without all the other specialist aids and findings. At
6 that time, that was quite inaccessible.
7 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge
10 Dr. Gajic, I too have at least four questions for you or four
11 general lines of questions or areas. The first is the following: If you
12 consider an injury and its cause, that is to say the cause of injury and
13 the instruments used, could you tell us what was the general results of
14 your observations? We know that patients, the prisoners, didn't like to
15 say who beat them but your clinical examination and your clinical eye gave
16 you the possibility of observing how a wound was inflicted, how an injury
17 was inflicted. Could you tell us, generally speaking, how -- what the
18 situation was?
19 A. Most of the injuries occurred from blows with blunt instruments,
20 including, for example, an army boot, then the butt of a rifle, hands,
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. Thank you.
23 Another aspect relative to that same area, on the basis of your powers of
24 observation, what would you say that the physical condition was of the
25 people you observed, directly and in general, when you passed around, when
1 you walked around? What was the physical condition of the detainees?
2 A. Well, the physical condition was fairly bad. People were tired,
3 distraught, psychologically distraught. It was a sorry sight to see.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question for you,
5 Dr. Gajic. You said that a number of physicians, if I understood you
6 correctly, went to the investigation centre. How did you organise
7 yourselves for doing the work you did there?
8 A. Well, the work was organised in the following way: Every morning
9 at about 7.30, I would stock up on medicaments and sanitary material in
10 the pharmacy which was attached to the health centre. I would take all
11 the medicines that I would need and sanitary material and then we had an
12 ambulance, a military ambulance, the S-4 type of military ambulance, with
13 four beds for the transport of injured persons and two sitting seats, and
14 it would be a driver and two, one or two nurses would accompany the
15 driver, depending on how many were free, could be -- were expendable.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you have, can I say, a
17 calendar of your present -- of the presence of each doctor, a schedule, or
18 did the physicians all arrive at the same time or did they have a
19 schedule, according to which they would go to the centre?
20 A. Dr. Slavica Popovic was the head administrator of the health
21 centre, and she would determine the scheduling and order in which the
22 doctors visited.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. So you were there. You
24 went to the centre on the basis of indications received by Dr. Slavica
25 Popovic; is that correct?
1 A. The first morning visit, we knew that that's what we had to do
2 first, that as soon as we got up, we would go to that first visit. So for
3 that first visit, we didn't need an order or an indication from anybody.
4 We knew that that was our job. As soon as we got all the medicines we
5 needed, we would go straight to the centre for the morning visit.
6 As for the other visits, they would be done on the basis of phone
7 calls. If we were phoned up or if Dr. Slavica told us to go there, we
8 would go.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said, Dr. Gajic, that
10 normally speaking, the guards were in charge of sounding out the needs of
11 the detainees, and medical care for the detainees and that the guards
12 would give in -- bring in the patients, the sick people, they would -- the
13 guards would bring them for you to be able to do your work.
14 Now, with your clinical examination, that is to say, with your
15 powers of observation, could you tell us whether the guards were
16 organised? Did they follow orders, or were they indicated to do what they
17 did by anybody? What do you think about that, could you tell us on the
18 basis of your observations?
19 A. I couldn't notice with the guards that anybody issued them any
20 orders and specified what they were to do, at least not during the time
21 that I was present there.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You've answered the
23 question. You were not able to observe any kind of organisation. Very
24 well. But did it seem to you that somebody was there to enforce
25 discipline and organisation or was it completely disorganised?
1 A. Well, I think that there was some organisation. It was not
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. And now another question
4 for you, Dr. Gajic. You, did your job in the throws of an ethnic
5 conflict, and doctors always take the Hippocrates oath? Did you ever have
6 a situation where a doctor refused to treat somebody of -- on the grounds
7 of ethnicity? You are not going to denounce anybody, we don't want to
8 hear any names, but do you know of that occurring, that a doctor refused
9 to treat someone because of his ethnicity?
10 A. Where I work today, there are people of different ethnicities, and
11 in principle, I have never encountered anybody even who even gave thought
12 to acting in that way. It never entered their mind.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said "entered their mind,"
14 did you -- what about action? Did you see anybody act in that way?
15 A. No, never.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. So nobody did that ever;
17 is that what you mean?
18 A. I said that I never saw anybody do -- act in that way. I was
19 never present to see anybody act in that way.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Dr. Gajic. Thank you
21 very much for having come to the Tribunal, for answering all our
22 questions. We wish you a pleasant journey back to your place of residence
23 and success in your work. Thank you, doctor.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic.
2 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have completed the
3 witnesses on our list for today, and I think that Ms. Somers was about to
4 tender some exhibits into evidence.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I forgot.
6 I do apologise, Ms. Susan Somers. Please go ahead.
7 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. These relate to documents
8 which were identified during the testimony of Mr. Djukanovic. They are
9 Prosecutor's 3/290 and 3/291. Both relevance and recognition,
10 authenticity, I think, are established. We'd ask to have them moved into
11 evidence, please.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic.
13 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The Defence does not object, Your
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the exhibits mentioned are
16 admitted into evidence. We have no more witnesses for today and so we're
17 going to adjourn on time.
18 I should just like to inform the parties that pursuant to our oral
19 decision of the 6th of October 2000 and the 10th of May 2001, that is to
20 say, yesterday's decision, the Registry has informed us that in the
21 interests of urgency of the case in the Chamber and the availability of
22 the technical means, the Registry suggests the date of the 31st of May for
23 the video conference. The registry proposes the 31st of May.
24 Are there any objections or comments from the parties?
25 Ms. Susan Somers.
1 MS. SOMERS: As of this moment, Your Honour, there are none. We
2 will speak to the witness and confirm, but I believe it should be fine.
3 Thank you very much for notifying us.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. As you
5 know, we have a packed schedule and we had to decide that.
6 What about the Defence? Mr. Jovan Simic.
7 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you speaking on behalf of
9 all the Defence counsel or just in your own name?
10 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, in the name of
11 all the Defence teams. We have no objection to the date.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So the Registry can
13 take note of the fact that we have done everything in our power to have
14 that conference held on the 31st of May. I don't think there are any
15 other outstanding issues for today. May we just see how we stand with
16 witnesses for Monday or possibly Tuesday.
17 Mr. Jovan Simic, how do we stand, just to see whether I have the
18 right piece of paper in front of me?
19 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Probably not, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm going to have it now.
21 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The first witness for Monday will
22 be Mr. Mirko Jesic. The second witness -- I apologise, may I just take a
23 moment to check. The next witness will be Milos Jankovic. The third
24 witness is Momcilo Stojakovic, and I think -- I think those are the only
25 witnesses we shall be calling, just those three.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We have an expert witness as
2 well, don't we?
3 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We have him on our list for
4 Tuesday, the expert witness for Tuesday.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Following those four
6 witnesses, those four witnesses -- after those four witnesses, are we
7 going to have the expert witness; is that right?
8 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We have one more witness that we
9 intend to have on Tuesday, and he is Stojan Vuleta, and I thought that we
10 would hear the expert witness last. However, if we have time on Monday,
11 because I expect to question two witnesses briefly, and if the Prosecution
12 agrees, perhaps it would be a good idea to hear the expert witness as well
13 but we shall have to see how we proceed on Monday.
14 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, may I just comment in the event that
15 there is a -- I think that would be a bit difficult in the way we've set
16 things up with our own people. We've planned it based on the
17 representations of last week. So if it's not a real principal point, if
18 we could just stick with the schedule, I would be very grateful.
19 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The order will not be changed. No,
20 I'm sorry, the order has been changed so Vuleta Stojan will be heard --
21 anyway, the expert witness will be heard on Tuesday. We'll have the
22 expert witness on Tuesday.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We're going to wait
24 and see. I know that Ms. Somers likes order and we do too, so we'll have
25 to organise ourselves. Sometimes organisation has to be placed in the
13 blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 service of our goals, but nevertheless, I hope you all have a very good
2 weekend. We have all deserved it. We've been working very hard and we
3 resume at 9.20 on Monday. Until then, the meeting is adjourned.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
5 at 2.52 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday
6 the 14th day of May, 2001, at
7 9.20 a.m.