Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11589

 1                          Friday, 11 May 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          --- Upon commencing at 9.23 a.m.

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, you may be

 6    seated.  Good morning ladies and gentlemen.  Good morning to the technical

 7    booth, the interpreters.  Good morning to the Registry, counsel for the

 8    Prosecution, for the Defence.  Good morning to the public who is again

 9    with us.

10            We will be continuing the hearing in this case.  Yesterday, there

11    was a slight doubt as to whether we were going to have one witness or

12    another.

13            Who are we going to hear today, Mr. Simic?

14            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, I hope

15    that today we will be able to hear four witnesses.  Mr. Djukanovic has

16    arrived.  He will be third witness on schedule and after that, we plan to

17    question one additional witness, Dr. Slobodan Gajic, and thereby complete

18    four testimonies today.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the order has been slightly

20    modified, am I right?

21            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  Djukanovic was

22    supposed to testify third in the line and he will, indeed, testify third.

23    It's just that we have speeded things up a little bit.  The witness who

24    was supposed to be heard on the following day, that is on Monday, will

25    actually be heard today as the fourth witness, Slobodan Gajic, that is.

Page 11590

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then, thank you.

 2                          [The witness entered court]

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Slobodan Gajic

 4    [sic], can you hear me?  Will you please read the solemn declaration that

 5    the usher is giving to you.

 6            THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7    speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated now.

 9            Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.

10            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Is it Mr. Slobodan Gajic?  No.

11            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, there has been a mistake, Your

12    Honour.  This witness is Mr. Dragan Velaula.

13            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you very much,

15    Mr. Waidyaratne.

16            Mr. Velaula, Dragan Velaula, thank you very much for coming here

17    to testify.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honour.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will first now answer

20    questions that will be put to you by Mr. Jovan Simic and after that, we

21    will see what the order is going to be.  For the time being, it is the

22    turn of Mr. Jovan Simic.

23            Mr. Simic, your witness.

24            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25                          WITNESS:  DRAGAN VELAULA

Page 11591

 1                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                          Examined by Mr. J. Simic:

 3       Q.   For the record, sir, would you please state your full name.

 4       A.   My name is Dragan Velaula.

 5       Q.   I would like to ask you to speak slowly for the benefit of the

 6    interpreters.  Where and when were you born?

 7       A.   I was born on the 5th of January 1960 in Petrov Gaj.

 8       Q.   Are you married?  Do you have any children?

 9       A.   Yes, I am married and I have two children.

10       Q.   Where do you currently reside?

11       A.   In Omarska.

12       Q.   What are you by occupation?

13       A.   I am a waiter.

14       Q.   In 1992 in the area of Prijedor municipality, so that is the

15    period of time that I have in mind, where were you prior to the eruption

16    of the conflict, the takeover of power?

17       A.   I was in Berlin, in Germany.

18       Q.   When did you come from Berlin?

19       A.   On the 29th of May.

20       Q.   What was the reason of your arrival?

21       A.   My tourist visa had expired.  I had a three-month visa which had

22    expired by that time.

23       Q.   Were you mobilised?  And if so, when?

24       A.   I was mobilised as early as the 1st of June.

25       Q.   What kind of assignment did you get?

Page 11592

 1       A.   I was mobilised with the infantry forces.  I was assigned to the

 2    Crisis Staff in Omarska, to do my guard duty there.

 3       Q.   Where was the Crisis Staff located?

 4       A.   In the centre of Omarska.

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the last part of the

 6    answer.

 7            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

 8       Q.   Could you tell us who else was a member of the Crisis Staff at

 9    that time?

10       A.   I remember Milan Andzic and Ilija Lazic and some other people who

11    were there as well, who were not locals.

12       Q.   Did you have the same assignment throughout the war?  Were you

13    transferred anywhere else?  And would you please pause a little before you

14    proceed with your answer?  Please, go ahead.

15       A.   Since I'm a waiter, I was transferred to the separation plant, to

16    help with the kitchen work there.

17       Q.   Of course you know what separation is, but could you explain it a

18    little bit to the court?  And please wait until I finish my question.  Was

19    it located in the Ljubija mine?

20       A.   Yes, it was actually located in the Omarska mine, it was part of

21    that mine.

22       Q.   Separacija or the separation plant, what was there?

23       A.   That is where they had their management and the main kitchen.

24       Q.   What kind of management do you have in mind?

25       A.   The mine management, the mine administration.

Page 11593

 1       Q.   What did you do there?

 2       A.   I was helping in the kitchen, mincing onions, peeling potatoes,

 3    things like that.

 4       Q.   Who else was working with you at the separation?

 5       A.   There were a lot of women there but there were some men as well,

 6    some butchers, cooks and others.

 7       Q.   Could you give us any names, please?

 8       A.   Drago Vuceta was the butcher.  Zoran Vuceta worked there as well.

 9    Seva also.  Then there was Novo Ratkovic, Bajo Beric.  And Pero Rendic was

10    the chief of the kitchen.

11       Q.   Do you know Drasko Dzervad by any chance?

12       A.   Yes, I do.

13       Q.   Did he work there by any chance as well?

14       A.   Yes, he did.

15       Q.   Were there any women there?

16       A.   There were some lady cooks, yes, and other women as well.

17       Q.   For how long did you work in the separation?

18       A.   Until the 25th of June, thereabouts, and then I was transferred to

19    the investigation centre.

20       Q.   The 26th -- the 25th of what?  Could you tell us the month?

21       A.   The 25th of June, approximately.

22       Q.   You mean in 1992?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Could you please tell us something about the way the food was

25    prepared at the separation?  It was prepared there?

Page 11594

 1       A.   Yes, that is correct.

 2       Q.   Who did you cook for?

 3       A.   Well, we cooked for the police department in Omarska, for the main

 4    staff, for the guards around the camp, for the military as well, and

 5    others also.

 6       Q.   Could you briefly explain to us what the procedure was?  When was

 7    the food prepared, how it was distributed, to whom it was taken, and so on

 8    and so forth?

 9       A.   We would arrive at 5.00 or 6.00 a.m., some would come even earlier

10    on to make the necessary preparations, to cut the bread and to take that

11    to Omarska, to the checkpoints, and then at the end, to the investigation

12    centre.  That was the last distribution point.

13       Q.   Let us make things clear.  When you say "Omarska," are you

14    referring to the police station department?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   What about checkpoints?

17       A.   Well, they were the checkpoints manned by the military.

18       Q.   How did you distribute food?

19       A.   We distributed it in a little TAM truck and then later on in a

20    larger Zastafa truck.

21       Q.   Could you tell us under whose command you were placed?

22       A.   The kitchen was under the military command.  It was part of the

23    military.

24       Q.   What was the situation with electricity in those days in the area

25    of Prijedor municipality, and in particular in the village of Omarska?

Page 11595

 1       A.   There were very frequent shortages.  The power supply was not on

 2    on a regular basis.  Sometimes there would be four- or five-hour cuts.

 3       Q.   Did you have any problems because of that in terms of preparing

 4    the food?

 5       A.   Yes, of course.  We didn't have very often enough time to prepare

 6    such a huge quantity of food.

 7       Q.   When you took the food to the police station department in

 8    Omarska, that would have been at the beginning of June, am I right, when

 9    you're beginning distributing the food?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   At the police station department, would you come across Dragoljub

12    Prcac at any point in time?

13       A.   Yes, I would.

14       Q.   You said that on the 25th of June, you were transferred to the

15    Investigation Centre in Omarska?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   What kind of duties did you have there?

18       A.   Well, my duty was to distribute food, to prepare things that were

19    necessary for the distribution of food, and to proceed with the actual

20    distribution.

21       Q.   Prior to that, did you go to the separation plant to do something

22    or would you go to the investigation centre directly?

23       A.   No.  We would first go to the separation building, we would

24    prepare everything, pack everything, and then we would take it first to

25    the police station department, to the military checkpoints, and finally to

Page 11596

 1    the investigation centre.

 2       Q.   And the procedure was the same when you were transferred to the

 3    investigation centre in Omarska on the 25th; am I right?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   What were your working hours?

 6       A.   From 5.00 or 6.00 a.m. until 2.00 or 3.00 p.m. until the food was

 7    distributed.  I would work one day, and I would be off duty the following

 8    day.

 9       Q.   You said you initially transported food in a little TAM truck, but

10    where was the food actually placed?

11       A.   The food was placed in some kind of containers.

12       Q.   When you brought the food to the investigation centre, would you

13    serve it from those containers or would you actually put it into other

14    dishes?

15       A.   As regards the investigation centre, the containers were very

16    large, military containers, and there was no need to put the food in any

17    other dishes.

18       Q.   Was there any difference between the food that you took to the

19    detainees and the food taken to the investigators?

20       A.   The food for the investigators was prepared separately.

21       Q.   But was there any difference between the food that you provided to

22    the detainees and the guards, the security personnel?

23       A.   No, there was no difference there.

24       Q.   How much time per day would you spend in the investigation centre

25    in view of the fact that you worked in shift?

Page 11597

 1       A.   From 8.00 until 3.00, 8.00 a.m. until 3.00 or 4.00 p.m.  It all

 2    depended on the time of our arrival there.

 3       Q.   Do you know the people who were members of the security there?

 4       A.   Yes, I do.

 5       Q.   In addition to the security personnel, that is the people whom you

 6    thought possible members of the security personnel, were there any other

 7    groups of people there with some different assignments?  Did you observe

 8    anything of that kind?

 9       A.   There were two or three cleaning ladies there, a certain number of

10    technicians, the investigators were there, and some men from Banja Luka.

11       Q.   As regards the men from Banja Luka, did they constitute any

12    special unit?  Did you know what they were doing there?  Did they provide

13    security?  Were they investigators?

14       A.   I don't know what kind of duties they had there.

15       Q.   You told us you were a waiter.  Where did you work?

16       A.   I worked at the Potkozarje cafe in Omarska.

17       Q.   Did Stojica Prcac, the wife of Dragoljub Prcac work with you?

18       A.   Yes, she did.  She worked in the kitchen.  She was actually the

19    chief there in the kitchen.

20       Q.   Do you know anything about the Prcac family?

21       A.   Yes, I do.  Dragoljub would pass by very often when he was coming

22    back from work.  He would come to pick up his wife after work, and

23    sometimes Stojica and myself would discuss their, I don't know, financial

24    situation, the problems they had with their son who had a problem with his

25    arm.  So they needed some additional money for the treatment of this

Page 11598

 1    illness that their son had so they had to do some additional agricultural

 2    work on top of that.  What I'm trying to say is that their financial

 3    situation was not very bright.

 4       Q.   You told us you used to see Mr. Dragoljub Prcac at the police

 5    station department in Omarska?

 6       A.   Yes, I did.

 7       Q.   Did you see him at the Omarska Investigation Centre?

 8       A.   I first saw Dragoljub sometime in July, mid-July.

 9       Q.   Do you know by any chance when Dragoljub Prcac stopped working at

10    the investigation centre?

11       A.   I believe it was when the group of people, group of detainees left

12    for Manjaca.

13       Q.   Did the investigation centre continue working after that?

14       A.   I think that some 150, 200 detainees remained and the centre was

15    operational for, I don't know, additional 15 days or so.

16       Q.   What kind of conditions were there at the investigation centre?

17       A.   You mean before or after that event?

18       Q.   No, I mean after the 15th.

19       A.   They had beds, the food was better.  The quality of the food was

20    better because the quantity was not so large any longer so the conditions

21    improved whereas before that, the conditions were rather bad.

22            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours,

23    the Defence concludes the examination of this witness.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Jovan

25    Simic.

Page 11599

 1    Any other Defence counsel who wish to ask questions of the

 2    witness?  No.

 3            So Mr. Waidyaratne, I believe you will be conducting the

 4    cross-examination.  Your witness, Mr. Waidyaratne.

 5            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6                          Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

 7       Q.   Mr. Velaula, you said that you worked as a waiter.  When did you

 8    work as a waiter in the restaurant called Potkozarje?

 9       A.   From 1977 to 1979.  Then there was an interruption.  I did

10    seasonal work along the coast until 1983 and after 1983, I went back to

11    Potkozarje and worked there until 1992.

12       Q.   Until when in 1992?

13       A.   I think January.  Then in February, I left for Germany, and I was

14    in Germany until the end of May.

15       Q.   Did you have any connection with another restaurant by the name of

16    Europa?

17       A.   No, I didn't.  My brother worked there.  He worked there for about

18    half a year.

19       Q.   Mr. Velaula, you said that Mrs. Prcac worked with you in the

20    place, the restaurant called Potkozarje?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Was it a bar or a tavern, this place that you called Potkozarje?

23       A.   No.  It was a restaurant, and there was a big hall, that is to

24    say, a small hall for -- like restaurant, and then there was a larger hall

25    too.  But it was a restaurant, we called it a restaurant.

Page 11600

 1       Q.   It was a bar, they had a bar too, a place --

 2       A.   Yes, there was a bar.

 3       Q.   And did Mr. Prcac come there very often?  Did he socialise with

 4    the people there?

 5       A.   Well, he would come by from time to time on his way back from work

 6    and spend 10 or 15 minutes there and then go on home.  And in the evening,

 7    as his wife worked until 10.00 p.m., he would come there about 9.00 to go

 8    home with her, take her home.

 9       Q.   He never complained to you anything with regard to his family

10    problems or anything.  He was a happy man, a cheerful man; is that

11    correct?

12       A.   Well, I can't say he was a cheerful man and a happy man.  I didn't

13    talk to him that much.  I talked to his wife mostly.

14       Q.   Now, we move on to the time that you came from Berlin.  You said

15    that you came from Berlin on the 29th and you were mobilised immediately,

16    within two days, the 1st of June?

17       A.   Yes, I was mobilised, yes.

18       Q.   How long did you work with the Crisis Staff?

19       A.   I wasn't in the Crisis Staff.  I just provided security, stood

20    guard for the Crisis Staff.  I was there seven or eight days, thereabouts.

21       Q.   I understand.  In that location, how long did you stay there?

22       A.   Seven or eight days.

23       Q.   Which unit were you attached to and who was your commanding

24    officer?

25       A.   I was attached to the TO, the Territorial Defence as it was

Page 11601

 1    called.  And the Commander, well, let me see.  I think it was Milan Andzic

 2    or one of those, but I wasn't interested, really.

 3       Q.   You were not attached to the quartermaster's unit at any time?

 4    You were attached to the TO?

 5       A.   Not from the beginning, no.  I think the kitchen belonged to the

 6    TO, too.

 7       Q.   I'm asking you a very direct question.  You were not attached to

 8    the quartermaster unit?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Now, you said that you first started distributing food, is that

11    correct, which was prepared and given to you?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   What exactly was your function?  Were you the driver, or the

14    person who put the food into the containers, or were you accompanying

15    somebody in the truck?  What was your function?

16       A.   My function was to place the food into the mess kits and

17    containers.  The driver drove.  I went with him.  And then I unloaded the

18    mess kits and containers and distributed the food.  That was my function.

19    That's what I did.

20       Q.   So you -- first you said you went to the Police Station Omarska;

21    am I correct?

22       A.   Yes.  We went to the police station, to the Crisis Staff, the

23    checkpoints around about, and then last we would go to the investigation

24    centre.  When we had toured all the other places, we would end up by going

25    to the investigation centre.

Page 11602

 1       Q.   Right.  First we will talk about -- was all the food loaded at

 2    once to the truck, into the containers and put it into the truck, or did

 3    you have to --

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Now, you did this in one trip, all these locations?

 6       A.   All those places in one trip.

 7       Q.   Who decided the places that you had to go?

 8       A.   The head of the kitchen, the person in charge of the kitchen.  He

 9    would give me my orders.

10       Q.   How do you know as to --

11       A.   The head of the kitchen.

12       Q.   How do you know as to how many meals should be given at one given

13    place?

14       A.   Well, the head of the kitchen would give a list of how much should

15    be taken where.

16       Q.   So head of the kitchen in the sense, is that Mr. Pero Rendic?

17       A.   Yes, that's right.

18       Q.   So he gave a list as to how many meals should go to the Omarska

19    Police Station and how many meals should go to each and every checkpoint?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And did he give the amount of meals that should go to the Omarska

22    Detention Centre?

23       A.   He -- there were 2.000 or 3.000 containers of food or rations of

24    food, meals, so we would take 2.000 or 3.000 rations.

25       Q.   Now, you're not very clear.  First my question was, did Mr. Pero

Page 11603

 1    Rendic give you the amount of meals that should be delivered at the

 2    Omarska detention camp.

 3       A.   He had a list, and he would give us the list and say so much to be

 4    taken to that place, so much to the second place, so much to the third

 5    place, and we would have a list for the investigation centre as well.

 6       Q.   So by that, your answer, what you're trying to say is Mr. Pero

 7    Rendic knew the amount of meals that should go to the Omarska camp; am I

 8    correct?

 9       A.   He probably knew.  Somebody probably knew.

10       Q.   Now, you --

11       A.   There was a list.

12       Q.   Thank you.  You said that you took 2.000 to 3.000 containers of

13    food or rations.  Was it separately or in one big container?

14       A.   You mean all put into one container?  Well, there were four or

15    five of these containers.  I don't know how many meals in one but they

16    were all -- all the food was put into these containers, I don't know how

17    much each container -- how much rations each container had.

18       Q.   Now, Mr. Velaula, we will take the time.  You said that you came

19    at 5.00.  Did the kitchen start working at 5.00 or 6.00?

20       A.   About 5.00 or 6.00, sometimes at 4.00 a.m. as well.

21       Q.   And when you first started off the trip, how long -- what time did

22    you start off taking the food?

23       A.   At about 6.30, 7.00.  It was all close by.

24       Q.   Very well.  You mean to say the food was prepared by 7.00, 6.30,

25    7.00, for you to take the food?  Is that your position?

Page 11604

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   How long did you take to come to the Omarska Detention Centre to

 3    deliver the food?  Keeping in mind you went to the police station, the

 4    checkpoints, the Crisis Staff, according to what you said, how long would

 5    you take to come to the detention centre?

 6       A.   About an hour, an hour and a half.

 7       Q.   So from what you say, it would be around 8.00 that you would be

 8    delivering?

 9       A.   Yes, 8.00, half past eight.

10       Q.   Now, Mr. Velaula, there had been some testimony from Mr. Pero

11    Rendic before this Tribunal.  Think clearly.  Did you deliver breakfast to

12    the guards?

13       A.   Breakfast?  No, we didn't deliver breakfast.

14       Q.   Did you deliver breakfast to the detainees?

15       A.   No.  There was just one meal.

16       Q.   How many meals did the investigators have?

17       A.   The same, one meal.

18       Q.   Thank you.  Now, talking about -- you said that you were peeling

19    potatoes and onions.  What could you say that it was in the meal which,

20    what you call the meal, which was provided to the detainees?

21       A.   Sometimes it was a soup, a potato soup, sometimes cabbage soup,

22    that kind of thing, or stew, potato, things like that.

23       Q.   In your estimation or your opinion, was this in good condition,

24    the quality of the soup?

25       A.   In my opinion, no, it wasn't, because there was no --

Page 11605

 1       Q.   Sorry, yes, please go on.

 2       A.   There was not enough ingredients -- there were not enough

 3    ingredients for you to make a tasty meal.

 4       Q.   Was it in quantity sufficient for the detainees who were there?

 5       A.   The quantity?  They had one meal a day.  They would receive a

 6    plate full of this soup or stew, a quarter of a loaf of bread a day.

 7    Whether that was enough for them, I can't say.

 8       Q.   I didn't go back -- I was not unfair by that question to you,

 9    because you subsequently said you distributed food too, when you served in

10    the camp.  That's why I'm asking you.  When you served the food, in your

11    opinion, did the detainees always have a quarter of a loaf of bread?

12       A.   To begin with, it was an eighth of a loaf, not a quarter, an

13    eighth of a loaf, but on the 1st of July -- the 1st of August, it was a

14    quarter.  To begin with, there wasn't as much bread as later on.

15       Q.   What about the time from 1st of June to the 30th of July?  Did

16    they have sufficient bread?

17       A.   The 1st of June to?

18       Q.   The 30th of July.

19       A.   There was a bread shortage and that's why we gave an eighth of a

20    loaf to -- per person.

21       Q.   Thank you.

22            Mr. Velaula, you said that you came to the Omarska camp and worked

23    in the canteen, am I correct?

24       A.   I don't understand how you mean canteen.  What canteen are you

25    talking about?

Page 11606

 1       Q.   You said that after working in the kitchen, were you sometimes

 2    transferred to the Omarska detention camp, the investigation centre?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Where were you?  What were you doing there?

 5       A.   In the investigation centre, well I've explained that already.  We

 6    took the food to the investigation centre and I organised the distribution

 7    of the food.  I supervised this for a little while.  There were women

 8    washing the dishes further on over there, and I supervised the

 9    distribution of the food.  I watched while it was being done actually.

10       Q.   Yes.  Now, when you say the distribution, if you use the word

11    "distribution," you are talking about the place where the detainees came

12    to eat which is popularly known as the restaurant; am I correct?

13       A.   Yes, that's right.

14       Q.   Now, this was the building which was, if you may know, did you

15    know that this building was called the administration building too?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   So how long did you spend in this restaurant building when you

18    went to distribute the food and supervise the distribution?

19       A.   Well, I would spend most of my time there from 8.00 until 3.00 or

20    4.00 depending on when the food was distributed, how long it took.  But I

21    was present there more or less all the time.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, I apologise for

23    interrupting, but please bear in mind the time.  Have you got your time

24    under control?  Are you taking care of the time?

25            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 11607

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, proceed.

 2            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3       Q.   Now, did you see Mr. Prcac in this administration building?

 4       A.   In the morning, a cook, a lady cook would come to me and we would

 5    take the food up to the investigators so that we would first give -- go to

 6    where it said police and on the right-hand side, there was a room and

 7    Dragoljub was there and we would leave the food there and there was a

 8    telephone there.  Then we would go and distribute the food to the

 9    investigators and go back downstairs.

10       Q.   Now, did you see Mr. Prcac come into the kitchen to have his

11    meals?

12       A.   No, I didn't.

13       Q.   Did you see --

14       A.   I didn't go downstairs because we would take the food upstairs.

15       Q.   Just so it's very clear, now the kitchen is in the ground floor.

16    When you were distributing food did you see Mr. Prcac in the ground

17    floor?

18       A.   Sometimes.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jovan Simic.

20            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The witness answered a moment ago

21    that he wasn't downstairs and he didn't see him there.  So there's no

22    reason for the Prosecution to insist upon something and try to drag

23    something out of the witness who said that he saw Mr. Prcac upstairs not

24    downstairs.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think there's something to

Page 11608

 1    clear up here nonetheless.  He wasn't on the ground floor.  You know the

 2    restaurant was on the ground floor, and Mr. Prcac's office was on the

 3    first floor.  But nevertheless, please proceed, Mr. Waidyaratne.  Go ahead

 4    and you've already used up your time, I think.

 5            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  I have one more minute, Your Honour.

 6       Q.   Mr. Velaula, did you see Mr. Prcac on the ground floor?

 7       A.   Mr. Prcac on the ground floor, well I saw him the first day when

 8    he came.

 9       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... did you see him on the ground

10    floor?

11       A.   I didn't see -- I wouldn't see him on the ground floor.  I would

12    see him on the upper floor.

13       Q.   Did you see the detainees being obstructed and being beaten when

14    they come to have their meals by the guards who were there in the camp?

15       A.   I couldn't see that.  I just saw them when they came inside and

16    when they were in the kitchen because I couldn't see that in front over

17    there because there was a door, and then there's an entrance and the

18    entrance to the kitchen, and this is where I was standing.  So I couldn't

19    actually see that from where I was standing.

20       Q.   Were you aware that the detainees were beaten when they came for

21    their meals by the guards; yes or no?

22       A.   Well, perhaps I did see some person beaten when he went inside,

23    but he was beaten, a bruise, but I didn't know when he was beaten or why

24    he was beaten.  I wouldn't actually see him being beaten.

25       Q.   My last question for you, Mr. Velaula, how long were detainees

Page 11609

 1    given to have their meals?

 2       A.   Two or three minutes.

 3            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  Thank you Your Honour, that concludes my

 4    examination.  Thank you.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

 6    Mr. Waidyaratne.

 7            Mr. Jovan Simic, any re-examination?  If so, go ahead.

 8            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I shall be brief, Your Honour.  But

 9    if the Prosecution takes up a little piece of our time every time, then

10    it's going to be difficult for us.  We had planned to cover four witnesses

11    a day, but the Prosecution keeps taking a little bit of our time, but

12    never mind, I'll do my best and be as brief as possible.

13                          Re-examined by Mr. J. Simic:

14       Q.   Mr. Velaula, you said you did not belong to the quartermaster

15    service to begin with.  Now, did that relate to that first period of seven

16    days; is that what you mean?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And afterwards, were you transferred to the quartermaster service?

19       A.   Yes, I was transferred to the kitchen and thus became part of the

20    quartermaster service.

21       Q.   Thank you.  My second question, do you know in Omarska whether

22    there was a police station or a police department?

23       A.   There was a police department.

24       Q.   Now, my next question is about the list for the food.

25    Mr. Waidyaratne asked you something about that.  The list that you

Page 11610

 1    received from Pero Rendic.  Did that list refer to the number of meals or

 2    the number of containers?  Did he give you 2.000 or 3.000 meals or were

 3    they containers that said Omarska, the army, and so on?

 4            MR. WAIDYARATNE:  I object, Your Honour.  The context, what the

 5    witness said was that Mr. Pero Rendic had a list of the people, the

 6    detainees in Omarska camp.  That's what I understood and that was --

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, this question

 8    is quite a legitimate one.

 9            Mr. Jovan Simic, go ahead and ask your question.  If we're not

10    speaking of people, we're speaking of portions, then that is something

11    different.

12            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   Could you answer my question, please?  Were they the number of

14    meals or was it the quantity of containers that you took?  Could you

15    describe to this Trial Chamber so that we leave no doubt?

16       A.   There were about 4.000 to 5.000 meals being cooked, being

17    prepared.  Now, I don't know whether it was the quantity or the number.

18    We got these containers, you see, and they said these containers would go

19    to the investigation centre, these would go to the police station.  It was

20    written up on each of the containers and we just took them and distributed

21    them.

22       Q.   Tell us, please, whether the investigators, the staff of the

23    centre, and the guards, did they eat in the Separacija after working

24    hours?

25       A.   Well, I don't know because I went straight home.  I didn't go back

Page 11611

 1    to the Separacija building.

 2       Q.   So you don't know.  Thank you.

 3            My next question:  Where did the guards have their table where

 4    they ate?  Where was the table that the guards ate at located?

 5       A.   The guards, you mean?  Well, not in the kitchen.  There wasn't a

 6    table there.  They would come in, take the food.  Some people would bring

 7    food from home, but they didn't have a table in the kitchen.  That's for

 8    sure.

 9            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

10    questions.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Jovan

12    Simic.

13            Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

14                          Questioned by the Court:

15            JUDGE RIAD:  Mr. Velaula, good morning.  Can you hear me?

16       A.   Yes, I can.

17            JUDGE RIAD:  I just would like to have some more clarification

18    concerning a few points of your testimony.  You mentioned that after the

19    15th of July, the conditions of the camp became better and that they were

20    rather bad before that date.

21            Which means in June until the middle of July.  What did you mean

22    by "they were rather bad"?  Could you tell me what you meant by that?

23       A.   Well, the people were in the hangar.  They were outside.  They

24    were sitting close to one another.  The hygiene conditions weren't at a

25    high level, so that's what I mean when I say "poor conditions."

Page 11612

 1            JUDGE RIAD:  You speak of the hygiene conditions.  According to

 2    your conception, what was wrong with it?

 3       A.   Well, what was wrong with it?  People didn't take baths.  They did

 4    go to the WC, but they weren't able to take baths and see to their

 5    personal hygiene.  So that's what I meant, poor hygiene, bad hygienic

 6    conditions.

 7            JUDGE RIAD:  You said it improved also with regard to the food.

 8    What improved in the food?  The loaf of bread became one-fourth instead of

 9    one-eighth?

10       A.   Yes, yes, that's what it was about.

11            JUDGE RIAD:  But they continued having only one meal a day?

12       A.   That's right.  They continued having just one meal a day.  They

13    still had only one meal a day.

14            JUDGE RIAD:  And they had -- with this quarter loaf of bread, what

15    did they have, after the 15th of July?

16       A.   Well, there was this soup or stews made of potatoes, cabbage,

17    beans, that kind of thing.

18            JUDGE RIAD:  And before the 15th of July this soup existed the

19    same way or was it worse?

20       A.   Mostly this sort of soup.

21            JUDGE RIAD:  And this was the same thing as you -- I believe you

22    said was also given to the -- to the guards, to the security personnel?

23       A.   Yes.  It was taken to them and to the detainees.  It was all the

24    same.

25            JUDGE RIAD:  You mean the security personnel just ate a soup and a

Page 11613

 1    quarter or an eighth of bread?

 2       A.   Well, they would bring in food from home.  We would take them the

 3    same food but they would bring in their own food from home and eat that

 4    too, because they didn't like the food that we were handing out, so they

 5    would bring their own food, and very few people actually ate the food we

 6    brought them.  They would eat their own food from home.

 7            JUDGE RIAD:  So the food was not eatable, in your opinion?

 8       A.   Well, yes, it was eatable, but it wasn't of a very good quality.

 9            JUDGE RIAD:  Did you eat it yourself?

10       A.   I didn't, no.

11            JUDGE RIAD:  Now, you said that the investigators used to have

12    also one meal a day, like the detainees.  Now, what were the working hours

13    of the -- of these investigators?  How long did they stay in the camp?

14       A.   I think the same thing, from about 8.00 in the morning to 2.00 or

15    3.00 in the afternoon.

16            JUDGE RIAD:  And they had one meal?  They had lunch?

17       A.   Yes, one meal, it was lunch actually.

18            JUDGE RIAD:  They did not need to have dinner because they went

19    home?

20       A.   Yes, that's right.

21            JUDGE RIAD:  But the detainees did not have dinner?

22       A.   I've already said, the detainees had just one meal a day.

23            JUDGE RIAD:  What was it?  Lunch?

24       A.   Well, everything, lunch, breakfast and supper.  I don't know how

25    to call it.

Page 11614

 1            JUDGE RIAD:  Now, when they went into the restaurant, you said

 2    that you could not see from where you were anything happening, beating and

 3    so on.  But could you hear?  Could you hear cries, shouts?

 4       A.   You could hear them sometimes, but I couldn't see anything,

 5    because I've explained, I couldn't from where I was.  From my position, I

 6    couldn't see anything.

 7            JUDGE RIAD:  What could you hear, if you remember?

 8       A.   Well, some people would cry out or moan.

 9            JUDGE RIAD:  Thank you very much.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

11    Riad.

12            Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

13            JUDGE WALD:  Mr. Velaula, a few questions.  Did I understand from

14    your testimony that this soup or stew which was usually the main course,

15    as it were, of the meal, was prepared in the Separacija or did -- was it

16    prepared outside and then heated up and something added in the Separacija,

17    or was it prepared from the beginning, from scratch, in the Separacija?

18       A.   It was prepared in the Separacija, in the kitchen there.

19            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  So it was made from the beginning.  How about

20    the bread?  Where -- did that come from outside or was that baked in the

21    Separacija?

22       A.   I think the bread came from Prijedor.

23            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  Now, I understand your answer to Judge Riad's

24    question was that this food you prepared for all the different locations,

25    the police department, the detainees, some military, was basically a

Page 11615

 1    midday meal because you delivered it by the middle of the morning or so,

 2    and it was a sort of lunch or a sort of a midday meal.  Is that right?

 3    People would get it and eat it sometime in the middle of the day.  So that

 4    the presumption was, except for the detainees, people ate their breakfast

 5    some place else and they ate their dinner later on some place else?  So it

 6    was?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8            JUDGE WALD:  It was basically a midday lunch but for the detainees

 9    it was the only meal of that day?

10       A.   Yes, that's right.

11            JUDGE WALD:  Now, you talked -- I got a little bit mixed up

12    because at one point, I thought you said that the investigators got

13    different food.  The guards got the same food but the investigators got

14    different food but then at another point you talked about taking the food

15    to the investigators.  I just want you to clear that up for me, whether or

16    not you took this same food to the investigators as opposed to the

17    guards.

18       A.   Yes, I said that a separate meal was prepared for them.

19            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  That's what I thought, but I wanted to make

20    sure.  Thank you.  You talked about there being women in the Separacija

21    kitchen.  Were those women civilian women from outside the camp or were

22    those women detainees who were working in the kitchen in the Separacija

23    kitchen?

24       A.   There were women in the camp, in the investigation centre.  There

25    were detainees, women.  But there are two cleaning women down there as

Page 11616

 1    well.

 2            JUDGE WALD:  But there were detainee women working in the kitchen,

 3    some; is that right?

 4       A.   Mostly they helped us down there to distribute the food and wash

 5    the dishes.

 6            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  So you at some point after you were

 7    transferred to the centre, and you helped to supervise the distribution of

 8    the food to the detainees, I know you told us you were not in a position

 9    to see them as they came in or entered from outside, but you did see them

10    in the actual restaurant eating, right?  Getting in the lines, getting

11    their food and sitting down for a couple of minutes and eating it?  You

12    were able to see them then; is that right?

13       A.   Yes.  I was, I was present there.

14            JUDGE WALD:  Right.  What were your observations of what condition

15    they were in?  Did they look underfed?  Did some of them have bruises or

16    injuries on them?  Outside of not being able to take baths so that they

17    probably looked dirty or disheveled, but how did they look health-wise or

18    nutrition-wise to you?

19       A.   Well, they certainly weren't well fed.  They were thin.  That kind

20    of thing.

21            JUDGE WALD:  Right.  My last question to you is:  When you did see

22    Mr. Prcac in the camp, what was your impression of what kind of duties he

23    was performing there?  Just from your own observations.  Or what did --

24    what kind of duties did you think he was doing there?

25       A.   Well, I don't know.  I saw Dragoljub the first time when I was

Page 11617

 1    taking the food upstairs, I saw him in the room there he was by the

 2    telephone and with the lady there.  What role he had and what he did in

 3    the police, I don't know.  I'm not aware of police formations and things

 4    like that so I don't -- I can't say.

 5            JUDGE WALD:  But was it your impression during the period that you

 6    would be coming and going to the camp in your food distribution function,

 7    did you get the impression that he was a regular guard or that maybe his

 8    duties were different from those of the regular guards who were guarding

 9    the prisoners?

10       A.   Well, I have just said that I don't know what he actually did down

11    there or what position he held so I don't think I can answer the

12    question.

13            JUDGE WALD:  The only times that you saw him were on that floor in

14    that room with the telephones or radios; is that right?

15       A.   Yes.

16            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  Thank you.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam

18    Judge.

19            Mr. Velaula, I have a very brief question for you, just one.  If I

20    understand you correctly, there was a kitchen at the separation building

21    and there was also a canteen or a restaurant for the food distribution at

22    the Omarska centre; am I correct?

23       A.   At the Omarska centre?

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

25       A.   Yes.  Yes.  There was a restaurant there where the food was

Page 11618

 1    distributed but the food was actually prepared at the separation

 2    building.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Where did women

 4    detainees work?  Did they work only at the kitchen at the separation

 5    building or also at the restaurant?

 6       A.   The women detainees were at the restaurant at the investigation

 7    centre.  They were not at the separation building.  When we came there, we

 8    would find them sitting in the restaurant area, two or three of them would

 9    be washing the dishes maybe after that and two or three would be

10    distributing the food and helping us with the food.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

12    Mr. Velaula.  We have no further questions for you.  Thank you very much

13    once again for coming to testify at the Tribunal, and let me just wish you

14    a pleasant journey back to your place of residence.

15            Could the usher please accompany the witness out of the courtroom.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honours.

17                          [The witness withdrew]

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, who is our next

19    witness?

20            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our next witness will

21    be a protected witness, DE/1, who will be examined by my colleague,

22    Mr. Dusan Masic.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If my memory serves me right,

24    the protective measures have been granted, pseudonym, image distortion and

25    voice distortion or not?

Page 11619

 1            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Without voice distortion so that

 2    the public can also hear the witness.

 3            Your Honour, I think that it would be perhaps more advisable, in

 4    view of the protective measures, to have our break now at this point so

 5    after the break we will finish -- we will hear this protected witness and

 6    then --

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right,

 8    Mr. Simic, because there are certain measures, technical measures, that

 9    need to be taken beforehand.  Is that what you had in mind?

10            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right.  It is

12    true that the public will be able to follow the testimony of the following

13    witness.  However, in view of certain restrictions in terms of protective

14    measures, some steps need to be taken.  So we will have a half-hour break

15    at this point and come back to hear the protected witness.

16                          --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

17                          --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

19                          [The witness entered court]

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness DE/1.  Can

21    you hear me?

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will you please read the solemn

24    declaration that the usher is giving to you.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I solemnly declare that I will

Page 11620

 1    speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                          WITNESS:  WITNESS DE/1

 3                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.  And the

 5    usher will pull up the blinds and then after that, we will continue.

 6            Witness DE/1, will you now please have a look at this piece of

 7    paper which should contain your name and surname, and will you please tell

 8    me, by saying simply yes or no, if what is contained on the paper is

 9    indeed your name?

10       A.   Yes, it is.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Witness DE/1, thank

12    you very much for coming here to testify.  You will first be answering

13    questions that will be put to you by Mr. Masic.  And we will follow the

14    usual order after that.

15            Mr. Masic, your witness.

16                          Examined by Mr. Masic:

17            MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18       Q.   Good morning, Mr. DE/1.  That is how we will be referring to you

19    because of the protective measures that have been granted in your

20    respect.

21            MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I shall kindly ask Your Honours to

22    move into private session briefly, for the purposes of identifying

23    information.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we will move briefly into a

25    private session, for purposes of identification of the witness.

Page 11621

 1                          [Private session]

 2   [redacted]

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7   [redacted]

 8   [redacted]

 9   [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11   [redacted]

12   [redacted]

13   [redacted]

14   [redacted]

15   [redacted]

16   [redacted]

17   [redacted]

18   [redacted]

19   [redacted]

20   [redacted]

21   [redacted]

22   [redacted]

23   [redacted]

24                          [Open session]

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in public session,

Page 11622

 1    Mr. Masic.  Please continue.

 2            MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 3       Q.   After you were mobilised, where were you assigned to?

 4       A.   I was assigned to the police station department in Omarska.

 5       Q.   What did you do there?

 6       A.   I was a reserve policeman there.

 7       Q.   Who was the commander of the police station department in Omarska

 8    at that time?

 9       A.   Zeljko Meakic.

10       Q.   Was there a deputy commander to the police station department?

11       A.   No, there was no deputy commander.

12       Q.   As regards the police station department in Omarska, was there any

13    duty policeman there?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   What were the obligations and duties of the duty policeman?

16       A.   He was supposed to take in reports made by citizens on burglaries,

17    traffic accidents and the like, and to issue instructions that had been

18    written to reserve policemen as to what they were supposed to do during

19    their shift.

20       Q.   Who issued those instructions or orders?

21       A.   Zeljko Meakic did.

22       Q.   Does that mean that the duty policemen simply conveyed the orders

23    of Zeljko Meakic, simply passed them on?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   As regards the duty officer, could he order you, as a reserve

Page 11623

 1    policeman, to do anything?  Could he issue you any orders?

 2       A.   No, he couldn't.

 3       Q.   And could the duty officer punish you in any way?

 4       A.   No, he couldn't.

 5       Q.   Were you later transferred to the Omarska Investigation Centre?

 6       A.   Yes, I was.

 7       Q.   Could you briefly explain to us how it went, how it was?

 8       A.   One morning when we came to work, the duty officer told us that we

 9    would be transported in a van to the Omarska mine complex.

10       Q.   Who was there at the Omarska mine complex when you arrived?  Who

11    took you in?

12       A.   Zeljko Meakic.

13       Q.   What did he tell you at that point?

14       A.   He told us that we would be there from now on in order to guard

15    Muslim detainees.

16       Q.   Did he also tell you at that time for how long you would be doing

17    that work?

18       A.   Yes, he did.  He said approximately 10 to 15 days.

19       Q.   Did he also assign you to specific guard posts at that time?

20       A.   No, he didn't do that that morning.  However, when we reported to

21    the second shift that evening, he told us where we would be posted.

22       Q.   Were you able to choose the guard post that you want to be

23    assigned to?

24       A.   We could, yes.  And I was in the last garage, in the hangar

25    building.

Page 11624

 1       Q.   How disciplined were you?  What was the discipline amongst you?

 2       A.   There was no discipline.

 3       Q.   What exactly do you mean when you say there was no discipline?

 4    Were you able to leave your guard post?  Did you have to report to anyone

 5    upon leaving the guard post during your shift?

 6       A.   No, we didn't have to report to anyone.

 7       Q.   Would you slow down, please, for the benefit of the interpreters.

 8    Please continue.

 9       A.   No, we didn't have to ask anyone.  We simply agreed amongst

10    ourselves, our colleagues, when we want to go out.

11       Q.   Does it mean that your colleagues would then replace you as you

12    would replace them when necessary?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   In addition to the guards, were there any other people, any other

15    personnel or units within the investigation centre?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Who else was there, if you can tell us, please?

18       A.   There was the technical personnel in charge of maintaining the

19    mine complex, then there was a unit from Banja Luka, a group of policemen

20    who were in charge of taking people into custody.

21       Q.   Was there any cleaning personnel, any cleaning ladies there?

22       A.   Yes, there were two cleaning ladies.

23       Q.   What about the investigators, interrogators?

24       A.   They were there as well, yes.

25       Q.   Was there any military there?

Page 11625

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Who took the detainees for interrogations, who took them to the

 3    interrogators?

 4       A.   There was a special group of policemen assigned for that purpose.

 5       Q.   Who were members of that special unit or rather special group of

 6    policemen?

 7       A.   Some of the personnel were from Banja Luka, and some were from our

 8    police service.

 9       Q.   When was that group of police which was in charge of taking

10    detainees formed, when was it established?

11       A.   Three or four days after we arrived there, approximately.

12       Q.   Would you often see Zeljko Meakic at the camp?

13       A.   Yes, I would.

14       Q.   How often?

15       A.   Very often.

16       Q.   Do you know Dragoljub Prcac?

17       A.   Yes, I do.

18       Q.   How do you know him and when did you meet him?

19       A.   I first met him sometime in 1988 or 1989.  His wife Stojica used

20    to work in a restaurant where we ate, and he would come to pick her up

21    from work and that is how I met him, when her shift was over.

22       Q.   Would you talk to Drago in those days while he was waiting for his

23    wife and what did you talk about?

24       A.   Yes, I did.  We talked about agriculture and some insignificant

25    things.

Page 11626

 1       Q.   What kind of man was he, Drago Prcac, in your opinion?  What did

 2    you think of him?

 3       A.   Drago was a very calm, withdrawn man.  He was a very fine person.

 4       Q.   Do you know when Drago came to the Omarska Investigation Centre,

 5    if at all?

 6       A.   I think it was towards the very end of the existence of the

 7    investigation centre.

 8       Q.   Could you please be more specific when it was when the

 9    investigation centre was closed down?  What do you mean by "towards the

10    end of its existence"?

11       A.   Well, it was in the latter half of July, from the 15th of July

12    onwards.

13       Q.   What did Drago Prcac do at the centre?

14       A.   I don't know what he did there.

15       Q.   Was he some kind of superior to you?

16       A.   No, he wasn't.

17       Q.   Did you ever see him issue any orders to anyone?

18       A.   No, I did not.

19       Q.   At the beginning of August, do you remember any particular

20    incident and, if so, what is it that you remember?

21       A.   Yes.  I remember Drago Prcac reading out the list of women's

22    names, the women who were supposed to go to Trnopolje.

23       Q.   How is it that you remembered that particular event?

24       A.   Well, I remember it because they were hugging him and kissing

25    him.  They seemed to be very happy.

Page 11627













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Page 11628

 1       Q.   After that, did you see Drago Prcac at the Omarska Investigation

 2    Centre again?

 3       A.   No.

 4            MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my

 5    examination of this witness.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Nikolic?

 7            MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  With

 8    your permission, the Defence of Mr. Kos wishes to ask a few questions of

 9    this witness.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Nikolic.

11                          Cross-examined by Mr. Nikolic:

12       Q.   Good morning, Witness DE/1.  My first question for you will be the

13    following:  Do you know the person by the name of Milojica Kos?

14       A.   Yes, I do.

15       Q.   Did you know him from before the war in 1992?

16       A.   Yes, I did.

17       Q.   Did you work together with Mr. Milojica Kos at the investigation

18    centre in Omarska?

19       A.   Yes, I did.

20       Q.   Did you work on the same shift?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   According to your knowledge, Mr. Milojica Kos, did he have any

23    authority to issue orders?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   According to your knowledge, did Mr. Milojica Kos ever issue any

Page 11629

 1    order to you or anyone else?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   And my last question:  According to what you know, did

 4    Mr. Milojica Kos have any subordinates at the investigation centre?

 5       A.   No, he did not.

 6            MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, witness.  Thank

 7    you, Your Honours.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

 9            Does any other Defence counsel wish to examine the witness?  No.

10            Mr. Saxon, I believe, will be conducting the cross-examination.

11    Mr. Saxon, you have the floor.

12                          Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:

13            MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14       Q.   Witness DE/1, you have explained that you were first mobilised as

15    a reserve policeman in May of 1992, and later on, you went to work as a

16    guard at the Omarska camp; is that right?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Do you recall signing a declaration in May of 1992, pledging to

19    uphold the laws and the constitution of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

20    Herzegovina?

21       A.   Yes, I do recall that.

22            MR. SAXON:  I'm wondering if we could ask the usher to help us

23    distribute Exhibit 3/289?  Your Honour, I'm going to ask that we go into

24    private session because the witness's true name is on this document and

25    that we make sure that the ELMO, which I'm going to use, will not show the

Page 11630

 1    document to the public.

 2            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We will move into private

 3    session, and let me ask the technical booth not to broadcast the document

 4    which will be now placed on the ELMO.

 5                          [Private session]

 6    [redacted]

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Page 11631

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23    [redacted]

24    [redacted]

25                          [Open session]

Page 11632

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in public session, Mr.

 2    Saxon.

 3            MR. SAXON:

 4       Q.   You mentioned during your direct testimony that after you arrived

 5    in Omarska camp, that -- you mentioned during your direct testimony that

 6    when you arrived at the Omarska camp, Zeljko Meakic met you there and told

 7    you that you'd be there to guard detainees for 10 to 15 days.  I just

 8    wanted to ask you, did it -- did you become aware that most of those

 9    detainees at the Omarska camp were of Muslim ethnicity, that they were

10    non-Serbs?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   On the day that you arrived at the Omarska camp, when you were met

13    there by Zeljko Meakic, did you notice by any chance if Mladjo Radic was

14    present at the time?

15       A.   No, I don't remember that.

16       Q.   You said that "when we reported to the second shift that night,

17    Zeljko Meakic told us where we would be posted as guards."  But then you

18    said, "We could choose where we wanted."  And I just want to make sure the

19    record is clear.  Did Zeljko Meakic tell you as the new guards where to

20    take up your posts, or did the guards together simply form an agreement as

21    to who would be standing where?

22       A.   That morning, when we arrived -- actually, we went home and then

23    we came back later in the afternoon, to do the evening shift.  And it was

24    at that point in time that Zeljko Meakic saw us.  He met with us before

25    the night shift started and he told us that we should take up our

Page 11633

 1    positions as guards at the guard posts.

 2       Q.   And did Zeljko Meakic tell you, the guards, the new guards, what

 3    positions to take up?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Well, then, how did you know?  How did you and your colleagues,

 6    the new guards, know where to go, what positions to take up?

 7       A.   Well, some of us went, that is, my group went towards the hangar

 8    and others remained there.

 9       Q.   Was this simply a spontaneous distribution of people, people just

10    wandered off to wherever they felt like?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Well, Mladjo Radic gave an interview to the Office of the

13    Prosecutor in 1999 and he also talked about his first day at the Omarska

14    camp and this is, I believe, Prosecution Exhibit 3/215.  On page 67 of the

15    English version, page 69 of the B/C/S version, Mr. Radic was asked about

16    his first evening at the Omarska camp and he said the following.  He said

17    that Zeljko Meakic told him that, "Comrade Radic, you will be working

18    here."  To another one he said, "You will be standing further away from

19    the garage."  To another one, "You will be standing on the side of the

20    restaurant."  To another one, he said, "You will be standing by the white

21    house."  He said on page 68 of the version, he said, "You stay here," and

22    then to Mirko he said, "You stay here," and then to another one, "Over

23    there," and so on.

24            Dragoljub Prcac also gave an interview to the Office of the

25    Prosecutor which has also been admitted into evidence.  I believe it's

Page 11634

 1    Prosecution Exhibit 3/167, and he describes his first day at the Omarska

 2    camp when Zeljko Meakic told him, and this is on page 62 of the English

 3    version, page 19 of the B/C/S version.  According to Mr. Prcac, Zeljko

 4    Meakic told him, "Drago, you are going to be duty officer here," meaning

 5    on one of the offices in the first floor of the administration building.

 6            Can you comment on the fact that there seems to be a bit of a

 7    discrepancy between how the guards that you were with were told to take up

 8    positions and how the guards that Mladjo Radic was told to take up

 9    positions with and there seems to be a discrepancy between your experience

10    and Mr. Prcac's experience.  Can you just comment on that?

11       A.   Well, possibly if they were more closely distributed.  All I know

12    is that five or six of us went towards the hangar.

13       Q.   You commented on Zeljko Meakic.  What position did Mr. Meakic have

14    in the Omarska camp?

15       A.   I know Zeljko as the commander of the police station department of

16    Omarska.

17       Q.   What was Zeljko Meakic's position in the Omarska camp, if you

18    know?

19       A.   I don't know.

20       Q.   Did Zeljko Meakic ever give any orders, to your knowledge?

21       A.   While we were in the Omarska Police Department, yes.

22       Q.   When you were working at the Omarska camp as a guard and Zeljko

23    Meakic was also working there, did Zeljko Meakic ever give any orders?

24       A.   Not to me.

25       Q.   How about to other people in your presence?

Page 11635

 1       A.   No, I didn't hear him.  I don't know about the others.

 2       Q.   You said that there was no discipline at the Omarska camp.  Do you

 3    recall approximately how many detainees were there, how many people were

 4    being detained there?

 5       A.   I really can't say.

 6       Q.   If there was no discipline at the Omarska camp, how did you know

 7    what to do?

 8       A.   I knew what to do.

 9       Q.   How did you know that?

10       A.   It was my job to guard the prisoners, to let them go out to the

11    WC, and they did that themselves when I came, and to prepare them to go

12    out for lunch.

13       Q.   All right.  And you followed those procedures; correct?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   You did your job?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   So you would agree then that there was some discipline at the

18    Omarska camp.  There wasn't anarchy, was there?

19       A.   I couldn't take out -- anybody out of order to go have lunch out

20    of order.  There was an order according to which they would go out.

21       Q.   Tell me something, who created that order?

22       A.   I don't know.

23       Q.   Did it stir up from the sky, as far you know?

24       A.   No, let me explain.  If -- from the hangar, for example, one was

25    upstairs where the prisoners were and the other was the other side.  If

Page 11636

 1    they were to go first today, they would be last tomorrow and so in a

 2    circle.  So you would know.

 3       Q.   Very nice.  Who set up that system?

 4       A.   That, I don't know.

 5       Q.   How did you know when to show up for work?

 6       A.   I knew according to the shifts.

 7       Q.   And who created the shifts and the schedule of the shifts?

 8       A.   When we came for the first time, there were two shifts.  Later on,

 9    there were three.  I don't know who created them, set them up.

10       Q.   And how did you follow the schedule?

11       A.   Well, when there were two, I would go home to rest and then come

12    back again.

13            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Saxon, and thank

15    you for finishing before your time was up.

16            Mr. Masic, any re-examination of the witness?

17            MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] No thank you, Your Honours.  No

18    further questions.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  What about

20    Mr. Nikolic?  No?

21            Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

22            Questioned by the Court:

23          JUDGE RIAD:  Witness DE/1, good morning.  Do you hear me?

24           A.   Good morning.

25            JUDGE RIAD:  I just have one question, perhaps two.  You mentioned

Page 11637

 1    that you did not have to report to anyone when you were speaking about the

 2    fact that there was no discipline.  Now, does that mean that anyone could

 3    beat any detainee and not be accountable, or molest any of the women and

 4    not be accountable to anyone?  Was there no responsibility, in your

 5    experience?

 6       A.   No.  As far as I know, no.

 7            JUDGE RIAD:  Then you were responsible before whom?

 8       A.   What for?

 9            JUDGE RIAD:  For what I said, if you beat a detainee, or if you

10    molest one of the women detainees, if you violate the law of the camp?  Or

11    there was no law at all?  That's what I want to know.

12       A.   I didn't say that.  I said -- I apologise.  I said I don't know.

13    Neither did I see anybody beat anybody.  Nor do I know who that person

14    would be responsible to if they did.

15            JUDGE RIAD:  You never saw anybody being beaten?

16       A.   Before my eyes, no, not while I was at the hangar.

17            JUDGE RIAD:  Did you hear about it?

18       A.   Yes, I did hear about it.

19            JUDGE RIAD:  And when that happened, or when you heard about it,

20    was anything done about it?

21       A.   As far as I know, no.

22            JUDGE RIAD:  And also speaking of the lack of discipline, and you

23    mentioned that everybody could choose what he wanted to do, and if several

24    persons chose the same thing, who would solve this problem?  Several

25    people want to go out for a party and leave the camp, or do the same job,

Page 11638

 1    the good jobs, and leave the bad jobs?

 2       A.   Well, you know what, it was like this:  There was never any

 3    problem there.

 4            JUDGE RIAD:  Well, thank you very much.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

 6    Riad.

 7            Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

 8            JUDGE WALD:  Do I understand your testimony to be that you never

 9    witnessed any beatings or abuse of prisoners, though you heard about

10    some?  Is that what you said?

11       A.   Yes, that's right.

12            JUDGE WALD:  Did you ever see in the camp detainees bearing on

13    their bodies the marks of having been injured or beaten or bruised?

14       A.   Yes.

15            JUDGE WALD:  You did.  Now, you also told us that if a guard had

16    to leave early or had to do something, the guards got together and worked

17    it out to make sure that his position was taken care of.  They worked it

18    out amongst themselves; is that right?  I think you said that.  If a guard

19    had to leave duty --

20       A.   Yes, yes.

21            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  What I wanted to know is, since according to

22    your testimony, there were no -- there was no hierarchy of guards, suppose

23    one guard wanted -- had friends among the detainees, or neighbours or

24    relatives, and wanted those persons to be protected to some degree.  Did

25    it happen that one guard would say to the others, "Leave that person

Page 11639

 1    alone," or, "Don't bother that person, please"?  Or that those kinds of

 2    things could be worked out among the guards so that certain people would

 3    get some measure of protection from beatings or abuse?

 4       A.   I don't know that.

 5            JUDGE WALD:  You didn't come across that?  You didn't experience

 6    that in your experience -- in your time at the camp?

 7       A.   I saw -- that is to say, I was sitting on the upper floor when,

 8    before and after lunch, they would go past.  Those Muslims would sit down

 9    with me, like I'm sitting here, but they were people I didn't know.

10            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  We did have some testimony here that, in fact,

11    on one occasion, Mr. Prcac himself intervened to stop the abuse of a

12    particular prisoner, and said to the people that were doing it, you know,

13    "Stop that" even to the extent of drawing a gun or pistol on that.  My

14    question to you is:  Did you have any experience whereby one guard would

15    say to another guard, "Don't do that," or, "I don't think you ought to do

16    that," or, "You're not doing that right," or one guard would intervene

17    when another guard might be doing something that was abusive?

18       A.   No.

19            JUDGE WALD:  Do you -- in your own mind at that time, did you have

20    any idea what you would do if you saw somebody being abused?  I mean, what

21    do you think your obligation as a guard would have been, had you witnessed

22    a prisoner being abused?  According to whatever training, whatever rules

23    you were following, what would your obligation have been if you saw a

24    prisoner being abused?

25       A.   My obligation was to guard the prisoners, to take them out to

Page 11640

 1    lunch and to escort them to the toilet.

 2            JUDGE WALD:  Fine.  But suppose guarding, I'm sure -- by guarding

 3    the prisoners, did that in your mind encompass protecting them not only

 4    from escaping themselves but from other people beating or abusing them?

 5    Was that part of the guard function that you were performing?

 6       A.   Before my eyes, no prisoners while I was down there were beaten.

 7            JUDGE WALD:  I understand that, but I'm just asking you if you

 8    could answer the question, since you were a reserve policeman who was on

 9    temporary duty guarding prisoners and had been told by Mr. Meakic that

10    your function was to guard the prisoners.  I'm asking you what your

11    interpretation of what that guard obligation was.  Was it simply to stop

12    them from escaping or to make sure that nobody came in and abused them?

13       A.   You would need 300 or 3.000 policemen for that to be done.

14            JUDGE WALD:  For the second, to make sure that nobody came in and

15    abused them?  You're saying you would have needed a lot more guards than

16    were currently there?  Is that right?

17       A.   Yes.

18            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  Thank you.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge

20    Wald.

21            Witness DE/1, I should like to go back to the question of your

22    tasks and duties.  I thought I heard -- Mr. Saxon touched upon the issue

23    in a question he asked, but I thought I heard you say in your

24    examination-in-chief that your task was to guard the Muslim prisoners.

25    Now, I should like to know why Muslim prisoners?  Why did you say Muslim

Page 11641

 1    prisoners?

 2       A.   That's what was said at the time.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think it was Zeljko Meakic who

 4    told you that you were there to guard the Muslim prisoners.  Did I

 5    understand that correctly?  Did Zeljko Meakic tell you to do that, to

 6    guard the Muslim prisoners?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now let me put the question to

 9    you in another way.  Were there other detainees, apart from the Muslims,

10    detainees who were not Muslims?

11       A.   I think there were, yes, yes.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What ethnic group did these

13    others belong to?

14       A.   There were some Serbs.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Did you have the

16    task to guard those Serb prisoners as well or not?

17       A.   No.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So according to you, you were

19    there for the sole purpose of guarding the Muslim detainees.  The Serbs or

20    possibly Croats were not under your responsibility; is that what you want

21    to say?  You were not there to guard them?

22       A.   I don't think we understood each other.  Those prisoners were

23    outside my guard post, beyond my guard post.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So if I understood you

25    correctly, you were guarding the detainees from perils that could come to

Page 11642

 1    them from the exterior, if I can put it that way?

 2       A.   I did not say that.  I said that I was guarding the prisoners to

 3    prevent them from escaping and I -- my duty was to take them out to meals

 4    and to escort them to the toilets.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  But in an answer that you

 6    gave to my learned colleague, Judge Wald, if I am correct, you said to

 7    protect them from internal dangers, you would have to have many more

 8    guards.  I think that's what you said.  So you're saying that you were not

 9    allowed to -- you were not able to protect them from aggression amongst

10    themselves or aggression on them by other guards.  Yes or no.

11       A.   No.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What are you saying no in answer

13    to?  What do you mean by "no"?  Perhaps I didn't put my question properly,

14    but could you explain why you are saying no?

15       A.   I said a moment ago that no incidents took place during the time I

16    was doing guard duty, during the time I was on duty.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  Very well.  You said that

18    you saw prisoners being beaten.  Do you know who beat the prisoners?  You

19    didn't see that, no.  You said you didn't see them being beaten.  No, you

20    said you saw them, but do you know who beat the prisoners?  You didn't

21    actually see them being beaten, but you saw that they had been beaten.  Do

22    you know who did that to them?

23       A.   I saw that they had been beaten but I didn't see who beat them.  I

24    didn't see that.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you try and ask around to

Page 11643

 1    learn who had done that to the prisoners who were under your guard?

 2       A.   No.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  I have another question

 4    for you.  Witness DE/1, you answered to a question put to you by, I think

 5    it was Mr. Saxon, you said "Perhaps he," and you mentioned Radic and

 6    Prcac, "received more specific instructions with respect to the

 7    distribution of guard duty."  Do you remember having said that?

 8       A.   No, I don't remember saying that.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know what you said in

10    respect to that?  Otherwise, I shall go back a bit and ask you again.

11            Mr. Saxon said that Mr. Radic and Mr. Prcac said that Zeljko

12    Meakic had assigned, distributed the guard posts.  You said here that

13    nobody distributed the guard posts that you did this spontaneously, you

14    each chose which guard post you wanted to stand at.  And then you said, I

15    haven't got it written down exactly, but you said that perhaps, perhaps

16    they received their orders more specific orders or instructions.

17            You don't remember having said that?

18       A.   I do remember.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You remember?

20       A.   Yes.  Yes.  I remember now, sir.  Yes, I do.

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  My question is I should

22    like to know why did you think that they possibly received more specific

23    instructions?  Why do you think that they could have been given more

24    specific detailed instructions?

25       A.   Your Honour, the Judge, said that Zeljko Meakic, when they came on

Page 11644

 1    duty on the shift said, "You're going there, you're going there, and

 2    you're going there."  Now, I don't know what he meant by that, but I

 3    remember very well that that's how it went.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  But let's forget that

 5    other part.  All I would like to know is how do you explain the fact that

 6    they could have received more specific orders, instructions?  Do you

 7    happen to know?  Have you an idea about that?

 8       A.   I don't know that.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Do you remember the

10    first day that you arrived in the camp, the investigation centre, the

11    first time you got there?

12       A.   Yes.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  How were the guard posts

14    distributed to the guards themselves or namely to you?

15       A.   I said at the beginning that we came in the morning and that we

16    were sent back home, and that the guard posts had already been assigned in

17    the morning shift.  We came in the evening shift and went to the hangar.

18    We were sent back home to rest.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Who assigned the guard posts?

20    Who assigned the guards to their guard posts?

21       A.   You mean in the morning session, shift?

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Your group, your team?

23       A.   In the morning, the guard posts had been -- already been

24    established.  When we came in the evening we just replaced the guards at

25    those guard posts.

Page 11645

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, but who created the

 2    guard posts?

 3       A.   I don't know that.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You don't know.  Very well.  But

 5    when you arrived in the evening, the guard posts had already been

 6    assigned, distributed; is that right?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you occupied a post

 9    yourself.  Which post, which guard post did you yourself occupy?

10       A.   In the hangar.

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you always have that same

12    guard post or did it change?

13       A.   Inside the hangar, there were three or four guard posts within the

14    hangar and so we would go round in a circle, take turns.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How many days did you work on

16    that guard post in the centre, at the centre?

17       A.   Almost until the very end, until it went on.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  Witness DE/1, we have no

19    further questions for you.  You have answered the questions put to you by

20    the Defence counsel, the Prosecution, and the Judges.  We thank you very

21    much for having come to cooperate with us, and we wish you to safe journey

22    back to your place of residence and every success in your work.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

24                          [The witness withdrew]

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.

Page 11646

 1            MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  At this time, the Prosecution

 2    would offer for admission Exhibit 3/289 which contains actually three

 3    pages, an English version of the solemn declaration that was shown to the

 4    last witness, a copy of the original in B/C/S, and a declaration from

 5    Mr. Inayat, an investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor explaining

 6    how the Office of the Prosecutor obtained this document.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Masic.

 8            MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] No objections to this particular

 9    exhibit, Your Honours.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Masic.

11    The exhibit indicated by the Prosecutor will therefore be admitted into

12    evidence.

13            What's happening now, Mr. Simic?

14            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to apologise

15    in advance.  According to our plan, we were supposed to hear these two

16    witnesses before lunch, but we went somewhat faster than we expected and

17    our next witness will be coming within half an hour.  You saw my colleague

18    getting out of the courtroom.  We tried to contact the witnesses' unit in

19    order for them to help us bring the witnesses.  It's not a problem but I

20    think the witness will only come in about 40 minutes or so.  I don't know

21    if it would be a problem for you to have a lunch break at this point, and

22    after the lunch break, I think we will be able to finish both witnesses.

23    I'm sorry we have upset the schedule a little bit but I hope we will be

24    able to finish.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, I think that you are

Page 11647

 1    talking about Slavko Djukanovic and Milos Jankovic, the two remaining

 2    witnesses for the day.

 3            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It seems that I still don't have

 5    the right list.  I am a little bit jealous of Madam Somers.  She always

 6    seems to have the right list, unlike myself.

 7            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Well, you can as well be jealous of

 8    Madam Registrar.  She has the right list.  I will be able to give you the

 9    correct version of the list during the break.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It's really not a problem,

11    Mr. Simic.  So we have Slavko Djukanovic, and who is the other witness,

12    Slobodan Gajic, the one that I thought would be the first to be heard

13    today.  Thank you.  In order not to waste any time and in order to take

14    advantage of this unexpected break, I think that we should have our lunch

15    break, although your lunches may not be prepared.  We will have our usual

16    50-minute break at this point.

17                          --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.

18                          --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

19            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

20                          [The witness entered court]

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.  Can

22    you hear me?

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will you please read the solemn

25    declaration that the usher is giving you.

Page 11648

 1            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 2    whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                          WITNESS:  SLAVKO DJUKANOVIC

 4                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness,

 6    for coming here to testify.  You will first answer questions that will be

 7    put to you by Mr. Jovan Simic, and later on we will see about the order.

 8            Mr. Simic, your witness.

 9            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10                          Examined by Mr. J. Simic:

11       Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.  For the record, would you please state

12    your full name.

13       A.   My name is Slavko Djukanovic.

14       Q.   When and where were you born?

15       A.   I was born in Bosanska Gradiska on the 3rd of December 1949.

16       Q.   Are you married?

17       A.   Yes, I am.

18       Q.   Do you have any children?

19       A.   I have three children, two sons and a daughter.

20       Q.   Where do you currently reside?

21       A.   I currently reside in Montenegro in the house belonging to my

22    family in Herceg Novi.

23       Q.   Mr. Djukanovic, in April or May, that is, in the period preceding

24    the eruption of the conflict in the area, were you mobilised and, if so,

25    where were you mobilised?

Page 11649

 1       A.   Yes, I was.  I was mobilised as part of the general mobilisation

 2    at that time, and I was assigned to the Territorial Defence unit.  During

 3    that period of time, I was assigned to the Urije airport to a unit which

 4    was providing security to some technical equipment there.

 5       Q.   Did you remain there with the same assignment throughout the war?

 6       A.   No, I didn't.  This war assignment and my involvement in the whole

 7    thing changed.  So from that unit, I was transferred to the military press

 8    centre because of the technical skills that I have and I was assigned to

 9    the post of the cameraman.

10       Q.   When were you transferred to the military press centre?

11       A.   The military press centre was established in May, I don't know the

12    exact date, in 1992.

13       Q.   Was it a part of some military organisational structure?

14       A.   It was established as part of the military command of the 43rd

15    Motorised Brigade and the personnel with my kind of expertise were

16    assigned to that particular unit.

17       Q.   Could you explain to us the way in which the military press centre

18    functioned, under whose command it was and what duties it had?

19       A.   Upon its establishment as part of the 43rd Brigade, the military

20    centre was under the command 43rd Brigade and it consisted of several

21    people, three or four of us who worked there at the beginning and two more

22    people joined us later on.  We worked exclusively for the military and

23    with the approval of the military command.

24       Q.   What kind of assignment, specific assignment did you have in the

25    press centre?

Page 11650

 1       A.   As a cameraman, my job was to follow the events on a daily basis,

 2    and I would be sent to carry out my daily task, daily assignment.  Those

 3    assignments were given to the journalists, my colleagues, directly, I

 4    believe, from the people from the military leadership.  So after those

 5    briefings and meetings, we would take the equipment and go out in the

 6    field and usually do some shooting there.

 7       Q.   Does it mean that you were not in charge of deciding on the topic

 8    and the length of the footage?

 9       A.   No, I couldn't do that.

10       Q.   Could you film something on your own?

11       A.   No.  I couldn't do anything on my own initiative.

12       Q.   The military press centre, was it organised in such a way that the

13    members of the centre went out into the field individually or as part of a

14    team?

15       A.   We had teams.  Usually the team would include the driver, the

16    cameraman and the journalist.  Later on, it changed, but I believe that

17    for a certain period of time, we would have a specific driver, then later

18    on either myself or my colleague, the journalist, would be the driver.  So

19    that's how the teams were structured when they went into the field.

20       Q.   Do you know Mr. Dragoljub Prcac?

21       A.   No, I do not.

22       Q.   Did you ever visit the Investigation Centre in Omarska?

23       A.   Yes, I did.

24       Q.   Can you tell us when and on how many occasions?

25       A.   I don't recall the exact dates, but I know it was in the period of

Page 11651

 1    time following the establishment of the military press centre after the

 2    month of May and after the collection centre in Omarska, as we refer to

 3    it, was established.

 4       Q.   What kind of an assignment did you have when you went to the

 5    Omarska Investigation Centre?

 6       A.   I was sent to the Investigation Centre in Omarska with the

 7    assignment to film certain material which was presented to us at Omarska,

 8    and that material involved papers mostly, paperwork.

 9       Q.   I'm sorry, I didn't hear how many times you visited the

10    investigation centre.

11       A.   Two times.

12       Q.   Could you tell us where at the investigation centre you filmed the

13    material you have just mentioned?

14       A.   We filmed in this very large building which was in the Omarska

15    centre.  On the upper floor, there was a large office and I was presented

16    with some papers, and we made photographs of those papers.

17       Q.   You told us that you had your own equipment?

18       A.   Yes, that is correct.

19       Q.   Did you actually physically have that equipment and where was that

20    equipment?

21       A.   When I was mobilised, the equipment was with me at the press

22    centre.  I had a video camera, two ordinary cameras, and I kept them all

23    there because 80 per cent of the time I would spend there at the centre.

24    So the equipment was located at the press centre.  We would take it from

25    there into the field, and after the assignment, we would take the

Page 11652

 1    equipment back to the centre.

 2            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  We don't

 3    have any further questions for the witness at this point.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do either Defence counsel wish

 5    to ask questions of the witness?  No.

 6            Madam Somers, I believe you will be conducting the

 7    cross-examination.  Your witness.

 8            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9                          Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:

10       Q.   Mr. Djukanovic, you introduced yourself as Slavko Djukanovic.  Do

11    you also use the name Slavisa?

12       A.   Sometimes, by mistake, the name Slavisa would be used in a

13    document here and there, but mostly I'm referred to as Slavko Djukanovic.

14       Q.   The Defence counsel for Mr. Prcac gave us, as what is called an

15    official note, and they talked about interviews with witness Slavisa

16    Djukanovic.  Is that how you introduced yourself to Defence counsel, as

17    Slavisa?

18       A.   I don't think I did.

19       Q.   But you have, in fact, had that name applied to you?  You've

20    acknowledged that it's used or you use it, you say permutations, either

21    used by you or towards you, and you respond to it as if you were Slavko?

22       A.   Well, yes.  I mentioned the permutation from the earlier period of

23    time, and I referred to the time, long time before the war.  Sometimes in

24    town people would call me Slavko and sometimes Slavisa.  That's what I had

25    in mind.

Page 11653

 1       Q.   So that the person that was referred to by Defence counsel, and I

 2    assume it was you, as Slavisa is the same as yourself, Slavko Djukanovic?

 3    We can say that safely so that there is no confusion?

 4       A.   I think so, yes.

 5       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djukanovic, I appreciate your clarifying that.

 6    When did you actually start filming on behalf of either your military

 7    assignment or on behalf of the officials of the Republika Srpska?  I'll

 8    say during the wartime period?

 9       A.   My services for the military press centre began with the day of

10    its establishment, that is, as off of the month of May 1992.

11       Q.   When in the month of May, please?

12       A.   I don't think I can tell you the exact date but it must have been

13    sometime around mid-May that the press centre was established.  So I

14    probably -- not probably, I'm sure that I began working on the first day

15    of its existence.

16       Q.   Are you a journalist as well as a cameraman, or are you a

17    photojournalist, how do you define your avocation?

18       A.   Up until the war I used to work as a journalist, a photo reporter

19    and in the military press centre, I worked as a cameraman.

20       Q.   And with whom were you affiliated or working before the war as a

21    photo reporter, please?

22       A.   Before the war in Prijedor, we had a local paper there and I was

23    employed professionally there.  The paper was called Kozarski Vijesnik and

24    that is where I worked before the war.

25       Q.   Did you continue to work with Kozarski Vijesnik after the takeover

Page 11654

 1    of 30th of April 1992, did you continue to work with them?

 2       A.   My obligations depended -- depending on the free time which

 3    sometimes overlapped.  So I did work from time to time for Kozarski

 4    Vijesnik on their request.  I would do photographs for them.

 5       Q.   After the takeover, after the Serb takeover of 30th of April if

 6    you did?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to ask you a little bit about some of your

 9    colleagues.  How many persons did you work with out of the press centre if

10    you know, and specifically I want to ask you about a couple of people, but

11    did you work with a Rade Mutic and a Zivko Ecim?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And did you work with Milenko Rajlic either with or for?

14       A.   No.  I don't know about the kind of duties he had, but I know him

15    personally.  I know he was in journalism, but I didn't have any direct

16    contact with him nor did I ever work with him.

17       Q.   When you went to Omarska, did you have some type of document or

18    pass that got you in?

19       A.   We had passes, yes, which were issued by the military press

20    centre.  We used them every time we went out into the field and also when

21    we had to identify ourselves when we went out to carry out an assignment

22    because there were lots of people who didn't know us even on the territory

23    of Republika Srpska.  So we sometimes were required to identify ourselves.

24       Q.   Did you go to Omarska with either Rade Mutic and/or Zivko Ecim?

25       A.   Yes, with both of them.

Page 11655

 1       Q.   And in order to get into Omarska, the three of you had to have

 2    some type of pass, that would be correct?

 3       A.   Yes, we had to have passes.  But we never went all three of us.  I

 4    went with Zivko once and once with Rade, but there were never the three of

 5    us together at one point in time.

 6       Q.   Was there any other Slavisa working for the press centre, the

 7    military press centre, to your knowledge, who would have been sent to

 8    Omarska?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Do you recall, did you have ID numbers during the conflict that

11    would have been used on any documentation, if you know, if you remember?

12       A.   Well, I had my ordinary identity card which was issued before the

13    war.  It was an official document.  I still had it at that time during the

14    war.  But it had nothing to do with my activities with the military press

15    centre and my professional identification.

16       Q.   Did you happen to save copies of the documents that authorised you

17    to get into Omarska camp?  If you saved them, have you looked at them

18    recently?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   Were you ever at Keraterm camp?

21       A.   Yes.  I was once detained in Keraterm.

22       Q.   Were you in Keraterm camp in the capacity of photographer,

23    photojournalist or cameraman?

24       A.   No.  I was in Keraterm as a detainee, as a person who was taken

25    into custody there.

Page 11656

 1       Q.   So a witness who said that you were photographing bodies on the

 2    25th of July in Keraterm would be mistaken, perhaps?

 3       A.   In Keraterm?

 4       Q.   Yes.

 5       A.   Yes, absolutely so.

 6            MS. SOMERS:  May the usher be kind enough to distribute two

 7    exhibits, please.  Prosecution's 3/290 and 3/291.

 8       Q.   If you would look, please, first Mr. Djukanovic at Prosecution

 9    Exhibit 3/290.  This document from the Prijedor collection purports to

10    represent a pass or a request to the public security station personally to

11    the chief.  It is dated 24 June 1992 and it requests issuance of permits

12    to work in the Omarska prison camp to be issued to the following

13    reporters.  It names Rajlic.  It names Mutic, whom you mentioned, Ecim,

14    and it has a name Slavska Djukalic.  Is it more probable than not that it

15    was Djukanovic and it was a typographical error?

16       A.   I think so.

17       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djukanovic.  The information is signed by a Milenko

18    Rajlic as the information secretariat secretary and it comes from the ARK,

19    the Autonomous Region of Krajina Information Secretariat.  Information

20    ministries or secretariats are often times used for what is termed

21    "propaganda" without attaching a negative or positive value, just

22    propaganda, pushing or promoting a cause.  Would that be correct?  Is that

23    your understanding?

24       A.   Yes.  Yes.

25       Q.   Now, did you have to get all your clearance to travel through

Page 11657

 1    passes requested by the Ministry of Information which also covered

 2    propaganda as we know it in this parlance?

 3       A.   I'm not quite sure I understand your question.  We had passes to

 4    go out into the field when we had to carry out our assignments.

 5       Q.   But to get specifically into Omarska camp it appears from this

 6    document you needed a special pass.  This pass is for -- is a permit to

 7    allow you to work in Omarska so would any camp-related permit have to come

 8    upon request, special request from the Ministry of Information?

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic?

10            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend is trying to make

11    the witness speculate.  I think she should ask a clear question, whether

12    he knows or not, and not whether that would mean something.

13            MS. SOMERS:  I'll be happy to rephrase it.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: Okay.

15            MS. SOMERS:

16       Q.   In order for you to get into Omarska, was your military

17    documentation or pass sufficient, or did you need to have special passes

18    from this ministry?  Is that clearer to you?  I hope it is.

19       A.   I understand the question, and now I already told you that I had

20    gone to Omarska only with my military pass.

21       Q.   If you would look, please, at 3/291, I just want to ask you

22    quickly a couple of questions about that.  It is a document which purports

23    to have, if not your signature, then your printed name.  Is that yours?

24    Where it's photos taken in May and June, 1992?  Does that appear --

25       A.   Yes, that's my signature.

Page 11658

 1       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 2       A.   Yes, it is.

 3       Q.   The particular document -- I'm sorry, photographs, that were

 4    itemised, we don't have the photos here, but we are looking at the

 5    description, if you would look, please, at 11, number 11, seized map of

 6    Kozarac, defence plan; number 6, part of bedroom with reinforcements; 14,

 7    Artukovic's brochures found at Muharem Ceric, former Prijedor SUP

 8    employee; seized IDs -- number 16, seized IDs, Croatian, persons of

 9    Kozarac.  Is this an assignment that you were sent off on on behalf of any

10    particular organisation or body, to photograph these documents?

11       A.   No.  First of all, to make things clear, this is my handwriting

12    and this is my signature.  I'm sorry, I don't have my glasses here, but I

13    know what you're talking about, and I know what photographs you're talking

14    about.  So that was the part of my assignment that I had on that

15    occasion.  I cannot remember all of the details regarding the passes and

16    IDs.  The items were found after the attack on Kozarac, and I took

17    photographs of these items.  Some of them were probably published in

18    Kozarski Vijesnik, and some remained at the military press centre, but as

19    I said, this was all part of my work obligation and the assignment that I

20    had there.

21       Q.   Who assigned you --

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Somers, let me remind you

23    that your time is running out.

24            MS. SOMERS:  Would you be kind enough to let me finish this line

25    of questioning?

Page 11659

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go ahead, but be mindful.

 2            MS. SOMERS:  I'm aware.

 3       Q.   Who sent to you to do this particular assignment, please?

 4       A.   What particular assignment do you have in mind?

 5       Q.   Collection of these?

 6       A.   This whole list or?

 7       Q.   Yes, this list, please.

 8       A.   I believe as regards this particular list, the assignment was not

 9    carried out only on one day, on one occasion.  I'm sorry could you please

10    read me the first few sentences?  I'm sorry, I don't have my glasses here

11    with me.  I cannot see the text.

12       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Trnopolje dugout with part of

13    found weaponry and documents, seized --

14       A.   Yes, yes, sorry, just a second.  I will tell you.  The photographs

15    were done together with my colleague Rada Mutic, which was part of the

16    assignment we had immediately following the attack on Kozarac, when I

17    inspected the area and made the photographs.  I myself saw the area.  I

18    made photographs of the seized material, and I personally saw the dugout

19    so this is the material in question.  Why the list was made, I don't know,

20    probably for the purposes of military records.

21       Q.   One last question, please, and then I thank you very much for your

22    attention.  An individual named (redacted), whom I believe you know,

23    indicated there were a number of bodies filmed in Omarska, perhaps around

24    the area of the "red house" but anyway a number of dead bodies of Muslims

25    filmed.

Page 11660

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic?

 2            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think that

 3    (redacted) said that.  At least that's not what I remember him saying.

 4    We should perhaps have a look at the transcript and read exactly what his

 5    words were.  I think that it is very dangerous to speculate.  I don't

 6    think he said that.  I think that he said that he had seen that something

 7    should be filmed.  Of course, I'm not quoting him.  I don't remember his

 8    exact words.  I don't think we should be interpreting his words at this

 9    point.  We should have a look at the transcript.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.

11            MS. SOMERS:  Your Honour, I'm not quoting from the transcript.

12    I'm asking a question about an individual named (redacted), not from the

13    transcript.

14            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, do you wish to add

15    something?

16            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has

17    nothing against the question about (redacted) being asked.  However, the

18    question is actually what his words were.  So I think that the Prosecution

19    can ask questions such as whether you know him, whether you know that he

20    said something, but not whether he actually said those words because I

21    don't think he did.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please bear this in mind, Madam

23    Somers, when you ask your questions.

24            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you.

25       Q.   Documents in possession of the Office of the Prosecutor have

Page 11661

 1    indicated (redacted) has said that you and Drago Prcac at Omarska

 2    videoed -- you videoed, in the company of Drago Prcac, bodies of dead

 3    Muslim civilians and that these photographs, without identifying

 4    ethnicity, were used for Serb propaganda indicating that they were the

 5    bodies of dead Serbs.  The question to you --

 6            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

 7            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jovan Simic?

 8            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm absolutely

 9    certain now that (redacted) never said that.  The document my learned

10    colleague is referring to --

11            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, could you

12    restate your question?  "Did you ever go to do such and such a thing for

13    the object of filming dead bodies?"  And if so, then you can continue.

14    Why do you have to introduce (redacted) and say that he should do such

15    and such a thing.  Ask a direct question in a clear, concrete and concise

16    manner.

17            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, may I

18    complete what I was saying because it has been recorded in the

19    transcript. (redacted) never mentioned that before this honorable

20    Tribunal.  We have the documents and Your Honours don't.  He said that in

21    his witness statement and it was never mentioned in court.  We are now

22    using material that only the Prosecution knows about, and there is no

23    reason for these things to be stated.  It was never included in the

24    transcript because it was never stated in the courtroom.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, we are going

Page 11662

 1    to enter into a long discussion here.  Now, have you got an answer -- a

 2    response to the question?  Either you are going to quote what the person

 3    said and then ask your question or I think that you should ask the

 4    question in the way that I have proposed.  Otherwise, this will lead us to

 5    a discussion into a document that the Chamber is unaware of.  So please

 6    bear that in mind, Ms. Susan Somers, and go ahead with your question.

 7            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  This is again to test

 8    witness credibility.  It is not taken from the transcript.  I want to

 9    reaffirm that.

10       Q.   Do you know a photo journalist named (redacted)

11    with whom you may have done some photography earlier?

12       A.   I personally know (redacted) from the early war period.

13       Q.   During the time that Omarska camp was in operation, let's say from

14    the middle to the latter part of July, 1992, were you present at Omarska

15    filming any -- anything at all at Omarska camp?

16       A.   I personally did not bring the camera into the camp at all in

17    Omarska, video camera.  I never took it in with me.

18       Q.   Was there videoing there and were you present -- whether or not

19    you personally took a camera in, were you present when there was some

20    videoing there in Omarska during that time period?

21       A.   I can only speak in my own name.  And for the period in which, on

22    two occasions, I was in Omarska, for that period, so the two occasions

23    that I went to Omarska, I did not take my video camera with me, nor did I

24    see anybody filming with an video camera in my presence.  So the answer is

25    no.

Page 11663

 1       Q.   What were you doing at Omarska on those two occasions for which

 2    you had, apparently, a pass?

 3       A.   On both occasions, I was filming the written documents,

 4    certificates, and so on.  For example, certificates, private persons would

 5    give certain money for the SDA organisation and so these would be

 6    certificates certifying that such and such a person donated so much money

 7    to such and such an organisation.  So I would film, take pictures of

 8    documents and certificates and that kind of thing.

 9       Q.   You indicated you did not have a video camera.  Did you have a

10    still camera, a regular camera, when you were there?

11       A.   Yes, of course.  Both times I took a still camera.

12       Q.   With that still camera, did you take photos of any dead bodies?

13       A.   No.  No.

14       Q.   So if the allegation that I made or the comment that I indicated

15    earlier about using photos taken during your visit and labelling them Serb

16    dead as opposed to Muslim dead.  Would that be something that you had no

17    knowledge to at all?

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jovan Simic.

19            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really don't know, I

20    apologise, but where is this all leading to?  How come we're talking about

21    dead bodies now that you have taken photos of Serb propaganda, and I'm

22    very surprised that my learned colleague didn't use the phrase "greater

23    Serbian propaganda."  Now, you drew my learned colleague's attention not

24    to do things of this kind and now we see them done again.  I am fully

25    respectful of the time, but I must object.

Page 11664













13   blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14   and the English transcripts.












Page 11665

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, I think that

 2    we are here to contribute to peace.  I think that is an object of the

 3    Tribunal.  And I think that some expressions used in a certain way can be

 4    detrimental to that objective.  That's my first observation.

 5            The second observation, I gave you a bit of time, but let me state

 6    that you abused it because you have already taken more than 12 minutes.

 7    So where are you going to stop?  When are you going to conclude?

 8            MS. SOMERS:  If I could get an answer to this, Your Honour, that

 9    would be my last question.  I think it's a fair question.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but a properly-posed

11    question.  Not the type of question in the way you formulated it.  Restate

12    your question, and that will be the last one.

13            MS. SOMERS:  If Your Honour feels the term propaganda although it

14    is the term that is officially used in military parlance, I will say for

15    Serb political or military goals.

16       Q.   And the question, I'm sorry, there's probably a gap in your memory

17    but would there have been -- would you have had any knowledge of

18    photographs taken of dead Muslim civilians that may have been used for

19    Serb political or military goals during that period; yes or no?

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic.

21            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the question be

22    asked more precisely?  Is that the photograph?  Is that the photograph

23    that Mr. Djukanovic took or some unidentified photograph?  Is it not

24    simpler to ask whether -- do you know whether dead bodies were

25    photographed or not?

Page 11666

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic, I don't think

 2    we are going to get out of this predicament.  Are you going to ask the

 3    question in your re-examination?  You will have a chance.  You can do

 4    that.  Can you ask during the re-examination?

 5            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, Your Honour.

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Otherwise we are we

 7    are going to unleash a debate here, what can be asked and what cannot be

 8    asked.  Ms. Susan Somers is going to complete her question, reformulate

 9    it.  You are going to have the opportunity to redirect.  And I said from

10    the beginning that I am here with a very practical rule that I learnt very

11    early on in my career.  Treat all the parties equitably.  That is my first

12    rule.  Second, always give the other party the opportunity to react to and

13    contest what the other side has said.

14            So Ms. Susan Somers will ask her final question.  You will have

15    your opportunity to redirect and ask your own question.

16            Please go ahead.

17            MS. SOMERS:

18       Q.   Do you remember my question, Mr. Djukanovic?  I'm sorry that it's

19    not able to stay fresh, but do you recall it?  If you don't, I'll give it

20    one last shot.  You tell me.

21       A.   Could you repeat it, please, if that's all right.

22       Q.   During the times that you were at Omarska and still photographs

23    were taken that you took or if you are aware, perhaps, of any other form

24    of recording being video or otherwise, were any photos of bodies of dead

25    Muslim civilians at Omarska taken that were later, to your knowledge, used

Page 11667

 1    to represent bodies of dead Serb persons for political or military

 2    purposes on behalf of the Republika Srpska.  That's my question.  Is it

 3    clear?

 4       A.   I think it's clear, yes.  In Omarska, on the two occasions that I

 5    went there, I did not photograph the bodies of dead Muslims, either the

 6    individual body of a Muslim or any corpses whatsoever for that matter.

 7    Second, I can't say whether I heard or didn't hear.  I didn't hear.  I

 8    didn't see.  I didn't take the photographs.  I think that is the essence

 9    and substance of my answer to your question.

10            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you, Mr. Djukanovic.  And thank you, Your

11    Honour, for extending the extra time.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Susan Somers.

13    You're going to have pay that credit in advance.

14            Mr. Jovan Simic, please go ahead.

15            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The Defence has no additional

16    questions.  I think that the witness, himself, has clarified matters.

17            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.  Judge

18    Fouad Riad, no questions?  Madam Judge Wald, any questions?

19                          Questioned by the Court:

20            JUDGE WALD:  I just have one to clarify this debate for me.

21            You have very clearly testified that on no -- none of your visits

22    to Omarska did you take any form of pictures whether they were still or

23    video of dead bodies.  That's right, isn't it?  You testified that you did

24    not take any pictures of dead bodies with any kind of camera, still or

25    video; is that correct?

Page 11668

 1       A.   Yes.  Yes, that's what I said.

 2            JUDGE WALD:  My only question to you, just to make it absolutely

 3    clear is:  To your knowledge, on any of those visits to Omarska, did any

 4    other member of your military press team take any pictures of dead

 5    bodies?

 6       A.   A direct question, a direct answer.  I don't think any of my

 7    colleagues did that.  I have no proof that they did and my personal

 8    opinion is that none of my colleagues did do that.

 9            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  Thank you.

10            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge

11    Wald.

12            Mr. Djukanovic, I, too, have a question for you.  You said that

13    you went to Omarska at least twice and you said that it was to take

14    pictures of documents and those documents, in principle, were in a large

15    building.  Now I have two questions.  You went twice to take pictures of

16    the same documents?

17       A.   Yes.

18            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why a second time?  Why did you

19    go a second time to film the same documents?

20       A.   They weren't the same documents.  As time passed, there were more

21    documents.  As the documents were collected, they would call us from time

22    to time.  So the first time, to be quite frank, we pictured one part of

23    the documents.  The second time we took pictures of other documents as

24    evidence, as material.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see.  I understand.  Now, my

Page 11669

 1    second question:  The big building that you mentioned, can you give us a

 2    more specific idea as to where that building was located?  Where was that

 3    big building, could you tell us?  Could you explain to us where this

 4    building that you mentioned was?

 5       A.   I think I'll be able to explain.  It is the large plateau at

 6    Omarska, and I think it is a well-known building because it was in the

 7    middle of that plateau.  It is dominant on the plateau, and that's the big

 8    building.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  Very well.

10    Mr. Djukanovic, we have no more questions for you.  We thank you very much

11    for having come, and we wish you a safe journey back to your place of

12    residence and success in your work.  The usher will now escort you out of

13    the courtroom.  Thank you.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.  Merci bien.

15                          [The witness withdrew]

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see it's Mr. Masic on his feet

17    now.

18            MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  The Defence calls

19    its next witness, Dr. Gajic.  Dr. Slobodan Gajic.

20                          [The witness entered court]

21            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Dr. Slobodan

22    Gajic, can you hear me?

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, Your Honour.  Good

24    afternoon.

25            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the

Page 11670

 1    solemn declaration handed to you by the usher.  Please go ahead.

 2            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 3    whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                          WITNESS:  SLOBODAN GAJIC

 5                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Please be seated and

 7    try and sit comfortably.  Approach the microphone, please.

 8            Let me start off by thanking you for coming.  You are going to

 9    start off by answering questions put to you by Mr. Masic.

10            Mr. Masic, your witness.

11            MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12                          Examined by Mr. Masic:

13       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Gajic.

14       A.   Good afternoon.

15       Q.   For the record, could you give us your full name, please.

16       A.   My name is Gajic, Dr. Slobodan.

17       Q.   When were you born?

18       A.   On the 19th of January 1959 in Banja Luka.

19       Q.   Where do you live now?

20       A.   In Banja Luka.

21       Q.   You are a doctor by profession?

22       A.   Yes, I am a specialist in general medicine.

23       Q.   What were you by profession in 1992?

24       A.   In 1992, I worked in the health centre of Jajce and I was a GP, a

25    general practitioner there.

Page 11671

 1       Q.   Why did you stop working in the Jajce health centre?

 2       A.   On the 3rd of April 1992, I was discharged because of my ethnicity

 3    just as the other people of the same religious faith were discharged from

 4    the health centre in Jajce, and then I went to Banja Luka.

 5       Q.   Does that mean that you lost your job because you were a Serb?

 6       A.   Yes, that's right.

 7       Q.   What happened in Banja Luka to you after that?

 8       A.   After that, some 50 days later, I had no job.  I was not assigned

 9    to any work.  And on the 25th of May, I reported to the military unit in

10    Banja Luka and was mobilised into a brigade, that is to say, the health

11    section sanitary corps, medical corps of that brigade.  It was the 1st

12    Brigade, 1st Armoured Brigade.

13       Q.   Who was the Commander of the medical corps at the time?

14       A.   He was the Lieutenant Colonel Gliso Kovacevic.

15       Q.   Were you assigned as -- were you assigned to Omarska?

16       A.   Yes.  At the beginning of June, I was sent with my driver, with my

17    ambulance, military ambulance, to Omarska to the health centre in Omarska

18    where I joined the doctors working there.  And I was met by the head,

19    Dr. Slavica Popovic, the head of the health centre, with her colleagues

20    and nurses and medical staff and all the other technicians working there.

21       Q.   How did you organise your work in the Omarska health centre?

22       A.   In the Omarska health centre, work was organised in the following

23    way, we catered to the civilian population, the military and the police

24    force.  And the lady doctor, I didn't know at the time, informed me that

25    an investigation centre had been set up and that we would have to do that

Page 11672

 1    work too.

 2            And we decided how to incorporate work in the investigation centre

 3    as well with our regular job at the health centre.

 4       Q.   Could you please explain to the Tribunal what arrangements you

 5    made with the lady doctor and what she -- how she told you to cover the

 6    health centre -- why she told to you cover the health centre?

 7       A.   She told me to cover the centre because I am from a different

 8    region, I come from a different area, and I didn't know the people who

 9    were in the investigation centre.  I was a man, I was wearing a military

10    uniform, I had a military vehicle, which was fairly well equipped, it had

11    four beds for the transport of the wounded, and two seats.  We had a lot

12    of sanitary material, medical material, so I accepted to do that, to help

13    out my female colleague, as I was a man.  I decided that I would do that.

14       Q.   How did you organise your visits to the Omarska Investigation

15    Centre while you were in the Omarska health centre?

16       A.   Well, at about 7.30 or 8.00, I would go with a driver and one or

17    two nurses and myself took the ambulance to the centre.  We went to visit

18    the centre practically every day.

19       Q.   How did you organise the health protection of people in the

20    investigation centre of Omarska itself?

21       A.   Well, in the centre itself, we had our first aid kits and we

22    supplemented these with medications that we didn't have.  So we got these

23    from the Omarska health centre pharmacy.  We would go to the Omarska

24    health centre pharmacy for analgetics anti-pyretics, cardiotonics, drugs

25    for rheumatism, for asthma, bronchitis, abdominal pains, ulcers, and so on

Page 11673

 1    and so forth.  We could get medication from the Omarska health centre's

 2    pharmacy.  We also had ampules of medicines we administered to

 3    individuals.

 4       Q.   Doctor, but in the investigation centre, how was this health

 5    service organised?  How did people who needed medical aid and assistance

 6    come to you?  How did you know who needed treatment and who you needed to

 7    examine?  Could you tell us?

 8       A.   The guards were given the task of sounding out the detainees in

 9    their area, to say which people required medical examination and medicines

10    and bring them to us, to the locality where we were stationed.

11       Q.   Does that mean that every morning, you examined people who came to

12    you asking for medical help?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Doctor, at that time, generally speaking, what was the medication

15    and drug situation and all the other medical material for the area?

16       A.   Well, it was common knowledge that there were a lot of shortages

17    in medical equipment, medications, drugs and so on.  But to begin with,

18    our supplies were better, because at that time -- but at that time it was

19    difficult to get medicines from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  We

20    had been cut off and we had a shortage of certain medicines.  But

21    antibiotics, analgetics and some other medicines for asthma, cardiotonics,

22    we did have those.  We had them -- enough of those.  But insulin was a

23    problem, I remember.

24       Q.   Was there any kind of preventive health protection in the Omarska

25    Investigation Centre?

Page 11674

 1       A.   Well, prevention always existed, and had not preventive measures

 2    existed, epidemics might have broken out.  So we contacted the

 3    epidemiological service in Prijedor and they undertook all the necessary

 4    measures by their nurses and technicians, and measures were taken and

 5    epidemics were prevented from erupting.

 6       Q.   In front of the restaurant, was there a receptacle of some kind

 7    and were the detainees able to wash their hands in it in this basin,

 8    before they went into have lunch?

 9       A.   Yes, that's right.

10       Q.   And did the receptacle, the basin contain a chlorine lime

11    solution?

12       A.   Yes, it did.

13       Q.   How long did you stay in Omarska?

14       A.   Until about the middle of July.

15       Q.   Where did you go then?

16       A.   After that, for the purposes of my military unit, I was

17    transferred to another front.

18       Q.   Doctor, during the time you spent in Omarska, did you ever hear

19    mention or see something about Dragoljub Prcac or did you see him?  Did

20    you hear about him and did you ever see him in fact?

21       A.   I got to know Dragoljub in a very specific situation when in the

22    health service itself, Omarska health service, a dead person of Serb

23    ethnicity was brought in to us and it was claimed at that time that he had

24    committed suicide.  But we doubted that it was not -- there was a doubt

25    that it was not suicide.  And two men came, amongst them was Dragoljub,

Page 11675

 1    one of them was Dragoljub, and I met him then for the first time, and they

 2    did their part of the job and they established that, in fact, it was a

 3    killing and not suicide.  But I never met the man again, that is to say,

 4    Dragoljub again, after that.

 5       Q.   Does that mean that Dragoljub Prcac and another man made an

 6    investigation, crime scene investigation, in the health centre?  Is that

 7    right?  Did they investigate the dead body in the health centre?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Doctor, can you remember when that was?

10       A.   I think it was the beginning of July.

11            MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, doctor.  Your

12    Honours, I have no further questions for the witness.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would any of the other Defence

14    counsel like to ask any questions?  Yes, Mr. Deretic?

15                          Cross-examined by Deretic:

16            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President just two brief

17    questions.

18       Q.   Doctor, you said a moment ago that on the 3rd of April, 1992, you

19    were discharged because of your religious affiliation?

20       A.   Yes, that's right.

21       Q.   And that you were working in Jajce at the time; is that correct?

22       A.   Yes, that's correct, that's right.

23       Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, under whose control

24    already at that time was the town of Jajce?

25       A.   It was under the control of the Muslims.

Page 11676

 1       Q.   And can you just tell us here today to what ethnic group does the

 2    town of Jajce belong?

 3       A.   To the Croatian Muslim federation.

 4            MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

 6    Mr. Deretic.

 7            The Prosecution?  Who is going to examine the witness?  Mr. Saxon

 8    are you going to conduct the cross-examination?  Yes, please go ahead.

 9                          Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:

10            MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11       Q.   Dr. Gajic, I apologise that I cannot pronounce names very well in

12    your language.  Can you please give me the name again of the town that

13    you're from?

14       A.   I'm from Banja Luka.  I was born in Banja Luka.  And before the

15    war, I worked and lived in Jajce, which is 75 kilometres away from Banja

16    Luka.

17       Q.   In October of 1992, Jajce fell to Serb military forces; is that

18    true?

19       A.   That's true, yes.

20       Q.   Now, you mentioned that -- you testified that in early June, you

21    were assigned to the Omarska health centre, and at the time you learned

22    that there was an investigation centre that had been set up at Omarska and

23    that at that time, it was --

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   -- decided to incorporate health care at the Omarska Detention

Page 11677

 1    Centre as well into your work.  Are you sure that it was early June when

 2    you arrived at Omarska?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Did you work at the Omarska health centre with a man by the name

 5    of Ljuban Andzic?

 6       A.   As far as I know, Ljuban Andzic was not employed at the health

 7    centre.  He was a member of the Civil Defence, but he did go there very

 8    often and he cooperated with the investigation centre.

 9       Q.   Ljuban Andzic recalls you arriving on the scene in Omarska in the

10    second half of June, towards the end of June, or perhaps the first days of

11    July.  He said he couldn't quite remember the date.  This is on page 7537

12    of the transcript.  Was Mr. Ljuban Andzic wrong about that?

13       A.   Well, I think he made a mistake but I myself am not sure about the

14    exact date either.  I know that I arrived in the first days of June.

15    Probably those who sent me there know about it.

16       Q.   Can you be a little bit more specific about the kind of work that

17    you did when you went to the Omarska camp?  You described how you would

18    take the first aid kits and the medications that you could obtain from the

19    Omarska health centre pharmacy, and then that guards would sound out

20    prisoners who needed some medical assistance.  Then can you describe more

21    specifically, more precisely, what exactly you would do and where you

22    would be when you did it?

23       A.   During the first two or three days, I would actually enter the

24    hangars, that were very crowded, and it was difficult to work because it

25    was summertime and it was stuffy in there, and then it occurred to us,

Page 11678

 1    because the weather was fine, that the guards should perhaps take out

 2    several desks and chairs outside and we had some material that we could

 3    use outside.  So in those days, we conducted our examinations outside in

 4    the shade on the lawn.

 5       Q.   I see.  So you were in those days, after the first couple days

 6    when prisoners, when the ill prisoners were brought outside, you were --

 7    you would be examining and treating these prisoners in a shaded area?  Is

 8    that correct?  With some desks?

 9       A.   Yes, yes.

10       Q.   But this was essentially in the open?  People could walk by and

11    see what you were doing?

12       A.   Well, mostly those who didn't request for examination, they

13    couldn't come because the guards didn't want any trouble.  They wanted the

14    area around us to be calm so that we could concentrate on our work.

15       Q.   All right.  But the guards could walk by you, see what you were

16    doing?  Is that a fair statement?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Did anybody ever criticise you for providing this medical

19    assistance to these prisoners, most of whom were non-Serbs?

20       A.   No, never.  Nobody was ever able to influence, to affect, my work

21    in any way, nor did I receive any such criticism.

22       Q.   Were you reprimanded, transferred or ever punished in any way --

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   -- for providing this assistance?

25       A.   No.

Page 11679

 1       Q.   Now, did you ever see Dragoljub Prcac at the Omarska camp when you

 2    were there, providing medical assistance to the detainees there?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   Do you know a man named Miroslav Kvocka?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   How about Milojica Kos?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Mladjo Radic?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   How about a man named Zoran Zigic?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   How about a man named Zeljko Meakic?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Would it be fair to say that the first time that you went to the

15    Omarska Detention Centre would have been sometime in early June, 1992?  Is

16    that about right, approximately?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Approximately when would have been the last time that you went to

19    the Omarska camp?

20       A.   I cannot remember exactly when it was but it must have been

21    sometime around the 10th or the 12th of July.

22       Q.   So you only spent about a month providing medical assistance at

23    the Omarska camp?

24       A.   Yes, yes.

25       Q.   Do you recall any prisoners with any specific injuries that

Page 11680

 1    required treatment, visible injuries?

 2       A.   There were many individuals who had been beaten up, many people

 3    who had haematoma, scratches, various kinds of injuries.  I could see

 4    that, yes.

 5       Q.   You said that there were many people who had been beaten up.

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   How did you know that?  Did you ask the prisoners what happened to

 8    them?

 9       A.   Yes, I did.

10       Q.   And what did those prisoners tell you?

11       A.   Their answers were usually very brief and there's nothing -- there

12    was nothing interesting, particularly interesting about them.  They would

13    simply tell me that they had been beaten up.

14       Q.   Did they tell you who it was who had beaten them up?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   It was pretty hot in Prijedor during the summer of 1992, wasn't

17    it?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Now, this Trial Chamber has heard testimony from many witnesses

20    that often, there would be hundreds of persons sitting or lying on an area

21    that was known as the pista.  Did you also see those prisoners on the

22    pista?

23       A.   Yes, I did.

24       Q.   From a medical point of view, did you feel that this was an

25    appropriate way to keep prisoners?

Page 11681

 1       A.   In my view, it was not adequate, but there was nothing I could do

 2    to change it, that is, that it was not appropriate.

 3       Q.   Did you try to do anything to change that situation?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   You mentioned the importance of preventive health protection and

 6    you mentioned that you or your colleagues contacted the epidemiological

 7    service in Prijedor.  Did --

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Did you contact a doctor by the name of Dusanka Andelkovic?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And what did you tell Dr. Dusanka Andelkovic?

12       A.   Well, I told her that there was a huge number of people there,

13    that the temperatures were high, that she should undertake all necessary

14    measures in that respect.  She's a physician herself so she knew very well

15    what she had to do.  It was enough for me to tell you that epidemiological

16    measures needed to be taken and she, as a specialist, knew what those

17    measures included.

18            I think that she did a very good job, and that she prevented

19    epidemics from outbreaking.

20       Q.   Really.  Did she come to the Omarska camp to assist the physicians

21    and medical personnel working there?

22       A.   I don't know the doctor personally.  She may have been there, but

23    I didn't see her there.  We had telephone contact.

24       Q.   When you spoke with Dr. Andelkovic on the telephone, did she tell

25    you that she would do something or try to do something to address the

Page 11682

 1    problem at the Omarska Investigation Centre?

 2       A.   Yes.  She said that she would do her best to --

 3       Q.   So she did not tell you that, for instance, the Omarska

 4    Investigation Centre was outside her jurisdiction?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   You mentioned that there were problems with medical supplies

 7    during the summer of 1992, and you've discussed different injuries that

 8    you saw on detainees, medical problems that you had to address there, that

 9    prisoners told you that they had been beaten.  As an experienced physician

10    assigned to an army medical unit, did it ever occur to you that perhaps in

11    terms of efficiency and the economic use of those precious medical

12    supplies during wartime that it might make more sense for the prisoners to

13    be treated better?  For example, not to be abused and beaten and left out

14    in the hot summer sun.  Would better treatment of the detainees have

15    conserved more medical supplies?

16       A.   Of course it would, but my abilities were not such so that I could

17    do their work.

18       Q.   While you were providing assistance at the Omarska centre through

19    the -- sometime in the middle of July, did you have sufficient medical

20    supplies to do your work through the 12th of July, approximately?

21       A.   Mostly, yes, I did, except for the shortage of insulin which was

22    lacking throughout the Banja Luka area at the time.

23       Q.   Ljuban Andzic, who testified here on behalf of Miroslav Kvocka,

24    said that the Omarska health centre had a stock of reserve medical

25    supplies that lasted from the end of May to around the 15th of June.  This

Page 11683

 1    is on page 7595 to 7596 of the transcript.  And Mr. Andzic testified that

 2    after that when the members of the Omarska health centre went to the

 3    Omarska camp, they went empty-handed.  Those were his words.  Did you

 4    comment as to why his recollection is so different from yours?

 5       A.   Mr. Andzic is not a physician, and he had only very restricted

 6    access to medicines, almost no access whatsoever.  What he could do was --

 7    what he could have were various disinfectants and things like that.  I

 8    don't even know why he spoke about such things because he's not a

 9    physician.  He could not have access to medicines at all.

10       Q.   So even though Mr. Andzic was trained as a physician, he was not

11    permitted to administer medicines at the Omarska Investigation Centre?  Is

12    that your testimony?

13       A.   No, he is not a physician.  He only completed the secondary

14    medical school.  He's a so-called medical technician, paramedic.

15       Q.   Did you see or did you get to know any physicians who were

16    detained at the Omarska camp?

17       A.   Yes, I did, but I don't remember their names.  They were most --

18    it was the nurses who worked with me at the time who would tell me the

19    names of those persons, but I forgot those names.  I wasn't interested in

20    them at the time.

21       Q.   Let me see if I can refresh your recollection.  Does the name Eso

22    Sadikovic ring a bell?

23       A.   Yes, I've heard that name.  Yes, he's a doctor, a physician.

24       Q.   Was he one of the physicians who you saw at the Omarska camp?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 11684

 1       Q.   How about Dr. Jusuf Pasic, does that ring any bells?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Dr. Enes Begic, does that ring any bells?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Dr. Osman Mahmuljin, does that ring a bell?

 6       A.   I think I heard that name but I cannot remember exactly at this

 7    point.

 8       Q.   This Trial Chamber has heard testimony that Dr. Sadikovic was last

 9    seen alive at the Omarska camp in 1992 in August of that year.  Have you

10    made any inquiries as to what might have happened to this former

11    colleague?

12       A.   This is the first time I hear that he's no longer alive.  I didn't

13    know his whereabouts.  I didn't inquire about him.

14       Q.   Doctor, were you ever in the Keraterm Investigation Centre or

15    camp?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Were you ever in the Trnopolje centre?

18       A.   No.

19            MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no further questions.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

21            Mr. Masic.

22                          Re-examined by Mr. Masic:

23       Q.   Just a very brief question.  Doctor, did you personally know

24    Dr. Eso Sadikovic?

25       A.   No, I did not know any single person in Omarska until the day I

Page 11685

 1    arrived there.

 2            MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  No further

 3    questions.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. Masic.

 5            Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

 6                          Questioned by the Court:

 7            JUDGE RIAD:  Dr. Gajic, good afternoon.

 8       A.   Good afternoon.

 9            JUDGE RIAD:  I just have a question or two to ask you.  You

10    mentioned that the task of the guards was to sound out the detainees who

11    needed medical assistance and to bring them to you.  Were you allowed,

12    you, yourself, to go around and see the people, the sick people in the

13    centre, in the camp, the investigation centre, or you had to wait until

14    they bring to you what they wanted to bring?

15       A.   I was permitted to go around.  However, upon my arrival, people

16    from various parts of the centre were already being brought to me.  So we

17    would start the work immediately, and the next guard would bring the next

18    group and so on.

19            JUDGE RIAD:  So you had no access to the rooms or to places where

20    you can, you, yourself, find out who is sick or who is in pain?

21       A.   At the beginning I did, and that is what I was doing.  However,

22    the places were crowded.  There were lots of sick and wounded people.

23    Everybody needed something.  They kept asking me lots of questions.  I

24    could have remained in one room for hours.  And later on, I was just

25    trying to reduce that pressure on myself.

Page 11686

 1            JUDGE RIAD:  This pressure because you were the only man, the only

 2    doctor for all the camp?

 3       A.   No.  Other doctors visited the camp including Slavica Popovic,

 4    Nada Ljubic, Jasenka Mijatovic, and Vlado Radic, and others whom I don't

 5    remember because I had already gone.  But I was the one who went there

 6    most.  I was the regular one.

 7            JUDGE RIAD:  And when you walked around the camp, did you see the

 8    conditions of living of the camp and how much they would affect the health

 9    of the detainees?  Were you able to judge?

10       A.   The conditions were extremely bad.  That's all I can say.

11            JUDGE RIAD:  Well, we are not experts, but what do you mean by

12    "bad," could you just try to indicate?

13       A.   It was a rather small area with a great number of people.  There

14    were no adequate conditions provided for sleeping, bathing, changing of

15    clothes, personal hygiene in general.

16            JUDGE RIAD:  And according to you, what would this lead to after a

17    while?

18       A.   I don't understand your question.

19            JUDGE RIAD:  These conditions, what would you expect to happen to

20    people who live in such conditions?

21       A.   Well, of course such bad conditions additionally affected their

22    health which deteriorated as a result of those conditions.

23            JUDGE RIAD:  What kind of epidemics would that lead to?

24       A.   What kind of epidemics?  Various infectious diseases, for

25    example.

Page 11687

 1            JUDGE RIAD:  Such as?

 2       A.   Including enterocolitis.

 3            JUDGE RIAD:  When some people are already sick, would it be

 4    sometimes fatal to live in such conditions for lack of medicine, people

 5    with heart disease, with such conditions?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7            JUDGE RIAD:  Thank you very much, doctor.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

 9    Riad.  Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

10            JUDGE WALD:  Doctor, you mentioned that you did have contact and

11    conversations with the doctor at the epidemiology centre and that you

12    thought that she did a good job of preventing serious epidemics.  I'm

13    wondering if you would give us an example of anything that was done at the

14    camp to your knowledge along these preventive, epidemiological lines?  I

15    know somebody mentioned there was a place where they could dip their hands

16    into before they went in to eat.  But other than that, can you mention any

17    measures that you're aware of that were taken to prevent epidemics?

18       A.   One of the measures was a measure in the kitchen, before having

19    meals, they would have to place their hands in a disinfectant.  And also,

20    I know that a vehicle with water came to wash down the compound.  Then in

21    the rooms, the rooms were disinfected.  Other measures were undertaken in

22    the kitchen itself.  Persons working in the kitchen were also told to take

23    extra measures, not contact any people with infectious diseases or

24    anything of that kind.

25            JUDGE WALD:  Were you aware, along these lines, of any accessible

Page 11688

 1    facilities for washing hands near the lavatories?  We have had a great

 2    deal of testimony about many of the lavatories not working and that they

 3    were stopped up and various other unhealthy conditions.  Were you aware of

 4    there being any measures taken?  Because that would obviously be a source

 5    of infection for the kinds of diseases like enterocolitis that you

 6    mentioned?

 7       A.   Yes, from time to time, the -- these areas would be stopped up but

 8    workers would come every day and try to prevent the sewage system from

 9    becoming clogged up.

10            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  In the course of your visits and your

11    examination of the people that the guards brought to you, did you find

12    some that were sufficiently seriously ill or injured that they needed to

13    be treated in a medical facility such as a hospital and if so, what did --

14    were you able to do about those people?

15       A.   For each individual for whom I considered that hospitalisation was

16    necessary at that time, the Prijedor hospital, I would place that

17    individual in the ambulance with the driver and nurse and send the person

18    off to the health institution and hospitalise the person.

19            JUDGE WALD:  What would you estimate, over the more than a month

20    that you were providing these services, how many people, would you just

21    estimate, roughly, you did put in the ambulance and see that they were

22    sent to the hospital?

23       A.   We kept a regular protocol.  It's difficult for me to talk about

24    figures.  I can't remember exactly.  But we sent at least 20 people off to

25    a medical institution.

Page 11689

 1            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  Twenty people in the period of something over

 2    a month that you were there?

 3       A.   As I say, I don't know the exact figure, although it was recorded

 4    in the logbook.

 5            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  Was there any provision for you or somebody

 6    from the health centre being called in case of an emergency?  I mean, you

 7    came, you tell us, on a fairly regular basis, but suppose somebody gets an

 8    attack of something serious in the middle of the night.  Was there some

 9    access to emergency services when that happened?

10       A.   We were on call 24 hours, and in cases of that kind, we would go

11    to the spot.

12            JUDGE WALD:  Did that, to your knowledge, happen very often?  Did

13    you make many such emergencies -- you or other people at the centre make

14    any such emergency, unscheduled calls out there to treat these kinds of

15    cases?

16       A.   Emergencies?  At least once a day, in addition to our regular

17    visits, we would go to the camp at least one more time a day.

18            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  Now, some of the medicines that you listed,

19    among which were stomach medicines, and obviously one of the problems

20    we've heard much about were cases like diarrhea and various other things

21    that can happen when people are crowded together and the hygienic

22    facilities are not totally adequate.  Were you -- in those kinds of cases,

23    were you able to or did you make any recommendations to the people that

24    ran the camp about special diets?  I mean, we had lots of testimony that

25    these people got one meal a day and it was -- the same meal was prepared

Page 11690

 1    and dished out to everyone.  What did you do in cases of people who had

 2    diseases or conditions that required some kind of special dietary care?

 3       A.   As far as medicines for stomach problems are concerned, we treated

 4    people who had already had ulcers, being that -- people suffering from

 5    ulcer, and we had a list of those people and had medicines for things of

 6    that kind.  For enterogastritis, we didn't have sufficient quantities of

 7    medicines, so we weren't always able to come to their assistance.  As far

 8    as the food and the kitchens, we couldn't influence that much.

 9            JUDGE WALD:  So if you did, as I'm somewhat familiar with this, if

10    you did have a stomach condition, I think you as a doctor would probably

11    agree, medicine can help but usually it's medicine in conjunction with

12    some kind of dietary regime.  So is it your testimony that you were not

13    able to influence in any way the dietary regime of people who might have

14    conditions that needed special diets?

15       A.   No.

16            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.

17       A.   Our only way out in situations of that kind would be to send the

18    people to the Prijedor hospital.  That's the only thing that we could do,

19    and we did so in a few cases.

20            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  Did you treat some of the women detainees

21    during the period you were there?  Did you have some women patients as

22    well as men?  There were a much smaller number of women but we have been

23    told there were somewhere in the area of 30 or 40 women there.  Did you

24    treat any of those?

25       A.   While I was there, as far as I know, there were two women, and I

Page 11691

 1    remember on one occasion one of those two women working in the kitchen had

 2    injured a finger and we had to give her first aid for the finger.  That's

 3    the first time I saw that individual and never saw her again.

 4            JUDGE WALD:  So you -- did you ever have occasion to treat any

 5    women for the effects of forced sexual intercourse or what might have been

 6    rape?

 7       A.   As far as I know, that did not occur at all, but as I say, while I

 8    was there, there were two women, and they didn't come to me for a problem

 9    of that kind.

10            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  My last question to you is:  As a physician,

11    did you consider that the detainees at Omarska Investigation Centre were

12    receiving adequate medical care?  As an overall -- an overall conclusion?

13       A.   The medical care was not perhaps adequate at that time and under

14    those conditions and circumstances, but it couldn't have been better,

15    given the circumstances.

16            JUDGE WALD:  By professional medical standards with which you've

17    been educated, is it fair to say you would not say, if asked straight out,

18    were the people there receiving adequate medical care, you would not say

19    yes, would you?

20       A.   The people that came to me for help and who were able to -- for

21    which we were able to come by medications, they were taken care of.

22            JUDGE WALD:  No.  I understand that, but as a doctor, and looking

23    at it from patients' point of view, who have some medical conditions, and

24    leaving out whether or not war conditions and war shortages and everything

25    else might have explained or justified reasons why more fulsome care could

Page 11692

 1    not be given, would your conclusion still as a doctor be that these

 2    detainees, based on your observations, knowledge, over that month and a

 3    half, receiving adequate medical care?

 4       A.   Well, as a physician, it's very difficult to work without a

 5    laboratory and without all the other specialist aids and findings.  At

 6    that time, that was quite inaccessible.

 7            JUDGE WALD:  Okay.  Thank you.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge

 9    Wald.

10            Dr. Gajic, I too have at least four questions for you or four

11    general lines of questions or areas.  The first is the following:  If you

12    consider an injury and its cause, that is to say the cause of injury and

13    the instruments used, could you tell us what was the general results of

14    your observations?  We know that patients, the prisoners, didn't like to

15    say who beat them but your clinical examination and your clinical eye gave

16    you the possibility of observing how a wound was inflicted, how an injury

17    was inflicted.  Could you tell us, generally speaking, how -- what the

18    situation was?

19       A.   Most of the injuries occurred from blows with blunt instruments,

20    including, for example, an army boot, then the butt of a rifle, hands,

21    fists.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  Very well.  Thank you.

23    Another aspect relative to that same area, on the basis of your powers of

24    observation, what would you say that the physical condition was of the

25    people you observed, directly and in general, when you passed around, when

Page 11693

 1    you walked around?  What was the physical condition of the detainees?

 2       A.   Well, the physical condition was fairly bad.  People were tired,

 3    distraught, psychologically distraught.  It was a sorry sight to see.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question for you,

 5    Dr. Gajic.  You said that a number of physicians, if I understood you

 6    correctly, went to the investigation centre.  How did you organise

 7    yourselves for doing the work you did there?

 8       A.   Well, the work was organised in the following way:  Every morning

 9    at about 7.30, I would stock up on medicaments and sanitary material in

10    the pharmacy which was attached to the health centre.  I would take all

11    the medicines that I would need and sanitary material and then we had an

12    ambulance, a military ambulance, the S-4 type of military ambulance, with

13    four beds for the transport of injured persons and two sitting seats, and

14    it would be a driver and two, one or two nurses would accompany the

15    driver, depending on how many were free, could be -- were expendable.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you have, can I say, a

17    calendar of your present -- of the presence of each doctor, a schedule, or

18    did the physicians all arrive at the same time or did they have a

19    schedule, according to which they would go to the centre?

20       A.   Dr. Slavica Popovic was the head administrator of the health

21    centre, and she would determine the scheduling and order in which the

22    doctors visited.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  So you were there.  You

24    went to the centre on the basis of indications received by Dr. Slavica

25    Popovic; is that correct?

Page 11694

 1       A.   The first morning visit, we knew that that's what we had to do

 2    first, that as soon as we got up, we would go to that first visit.  So for

 3    that first visit, we didn't need an order or an indication from anybody.

 4    We knew that that was our job.  As soon as we got all the medicines we

 5    needed, we would go straight to the centre for the morning visit.

 6            As for the other visits, they would be done on the basis of phone

 7    calls.  If we were phoned up or if Dr. Slavica told us to go there, we

 8    would go.

 9            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said, Dr. Gajic, that

10    normally speaking, the guards were in charge of sounding out the needs of

11    the detainees, and medical care for the detainees and that the guards

12    would give in -- bring in the patients, the sick people, they would -- the

13    guards would bring them for you to be able to do your work.

14            Now, with your clinical examination, that is to say, with your

15    powers of observation, could you tell us whether the guards were

16    organised?  Did they follow orders, or were they indicated to do what they

17    did by anybody?  What do you think about that, could you tell us on the

18    basis of your observations?

19       A.   I couldn't notice with the guards that anybody issued them any

20    orders and specified what they were to do, at least not during the time

21    that I was present there.

22            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  You've answered the

23    question.  You were not able to observe any kind of organisation.  Very

24    well.  But did it seem to you that somebody was there to enforce

25    discipline and organisation or was it completely disorganised?

Page 11695

 1       A.   Well, I think that there was some organisation.  It was not

 2    disorganised.

 3            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  And now another question

 4    for you, Dr. Gajic.  You, did your job in the throws of an ethnic

 5    conflict, and doctors always take the Hippocrates oath?  Did you ever have

 6    a situation where a doctor refused to treat somebody of -- on the grounds

 7    of ethnicity?  You are not going to denounce anybody, we don't want to

 8    hear any names, but do you know of that occurring, that a doctor refused

 9    to treat someone because of his ethnicity?

10       A.   Where I work today, there are people of different ethnicities, and

11    in principle, I have never encountered anybody even who even gave thought

12    to acting in that way.  It never entered their mind.

13            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said "entered their mind,"

14    did you -- what about action?  Did you see anybody act in that way?

15       A.   No, never.

16            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.  So nobody did that ever;

17    is that what you mean?

18       A.   I said that I never saw anybody do -- act in that way.  I was

19    never present to see anybody act in that way.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Dr. Gajic.  Thank you

21    very much for having come to the Tribunal, for answering all our

22    questions.  We wish you a pleasant journey back to your place of residence

23    and success in your work.  Thank you, doctor.

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

25                          [The witness withdrew]

Page 11696

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic.

 2            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have completed the

 3    witnesses on our list for today, and I think that Ms. Somers was about to

 4    tender some exhibits into evidence.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.  I forgot.

 6            I do apologise, Ms. Susan Somers.  Please go ahead.

 7            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  These relate to documents

 8    which were identified during the testimony of Mr. Djukanovic.  They are

 9    Prosecutor's 3/290 and 3/291.  Both relevance and recognition,

10    authenticity, I think, are established.  We'd ask to have them moved into

11    evidence, please.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic.

13            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The Defence does not object, Your

14    Honour.

15            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the exhibits mentioned are

16    admitted into evidence.  We have no more witnesses for today and so we're

17    going to adjourn on time.

18            I should just like to inform the parties that pursuant to our oral

19    decision of the 6th of October 2000 and the 10th of May 2001, that is to

20    say, yesterday's decision, the Registry has informed us that in the

21    interests of urgency of the case in the Chamber and the availability of

22    the technical means, the Registry suggests the date of the 31st of May for

23    the video conference.  The registry proposes the 31st of May.

24            Are there any objections or comments from the parties?

25            Ms. Susan Somers.

Page 11697

 1            MS. SOMERS:  As of this moment, Your Honour, there are none.  We

 2    will speak to the witness and confirm, but I believe it should be fine.

 3    Thank you very much for notifying us.

 4            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.  As you

 5    know, we have a packed schedule and we had to decide that.

 6            What about the Defence?  Mr. Jovan Simic.

 7            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

 8            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you speaking on behalf of

 9    all the Defence counsel or just in your own name?

10            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, in the name of

11    all the Defence teams.  We have no objection to the date.

12            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  So the Registry can

13    take note of the fact that we have done everything in our power to have

14    that conference held on the 31st of May.  I don't think there are any

15    other outstanding issues for today.  May we just see how we stand with

16    witnesses for Monday or possibly Tuesday.

17            Mr. Jovan Simic, how do we stand, just to see whether I have the

18    right piece of paper in front of me?

19            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Probably not, Your Honour.

20            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm going to have it now.

21            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The first witness for Monday will

22    be Mr. Mirko Jesic.  The second witness -- I apologise, may I just take a

23    moment to check.  The next witness will be Milos Jankovic.  The third

24    witness is Momcilo Stojakovic, and I think -- I think those are the only

25    witnesses we shall be calling, just those three.

Page 11698

 1            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We have an expert witness as

 2    well, don't we?

 3            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We have him on our list for

 4    Tuesday, the expert witness for Tuesday.

 5            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  Following those four

 6    witnesses, those four witnesses -- after those four witnesses, are we

 7    going to have the expert witness; is that right?

 8            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We have one more witness that we

 9    intend to have on Tuesday, and he is Stojan Vuleta, and I thought that we

10    would hear the expert witness last.  However, if we have time on Monday,

11    because I expect to question two witnesses briefly, and if the Prosecution

12    agrees, perhaps it would be a good idea to hear the expert witness as well

13    but we shall have to see how we proceed on Monday.

14            MS. SOMERS:  Your Honour, may I just comment in the event that

15    there is a -- I think that would be a bit difficult in the way we've set

16    things up with our own people.  We've planned it based on the

17    representations of last week.  So if it's not a real principal point, if

18    we could just stick with the schedule, I would be very grateful.

19            MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The order will not be changed.  No,

20    I'm sorry, the order has been changed so Vuleta Stojan will be heard --

21    anyway, the expert witness will be heard on Tuesday.  We'll have the

22    expert witness on Tuesday.

23            JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.  We're going to wait

24    and see.  I know that Ms. Somers likes order and we do too, so we'll have

25    to organise ourselves.  Sometimes organisation has to be placed in the

Page 11699













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Page 11700

 1    service of our goals, but nevertheless, I hope you all have a very good

 2    weekend.  We have all deserved it.  We've been working very hard and we

 3    resume at 9.20 on Monday.  Until then, the meeting is adjourned.

 4                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

 5                          at 2.52 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday

 6                          the 14th day of May, 2001, at

 7                          9.20 a.m.