1 Tuesday, 29 May 2001
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.38 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please be
6 seated. Good morning to the technical booth and the interpreters, the
7 staff of the registry, the Prosecution and Defence counsel. We're going
8 to continue with the case and it is the witness we had yesterday for the
9 cross-examination. It was Witness AW, once we are ready to begin. We're
10 not ready yet so shall we wait a few moments.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness AW. Can
13 you hear me?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me remind you that you will
16 be continuing under oath. You may be seated.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will now be answering
19 questions put to you by the Defence counsel, and I think it's going to be
20 Mr. Krstan Simic. Mr. Krstan Simic, your witness.
21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 WITNESS: WITNESS AW [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
25 Q. Good morning, Witness AW.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. The Presiding Judge has already told you my name. I am Krstan
3 Simic, an attorney from Banja Luka, and I am the Defence counsel for
4 Mr. Kvocka.
5 I would like to talk about your testimony yesterday at greater
6 length. Before I go to the crux of my examination, may we go into private
7 session for a few moments.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let us go into private
9 session. Mr. Krstan Simic, could you please come forward a little bit. I
10 would like to see you but there is a column, a pillar, between you and
11 me. So if you could move forward a little bit, I'll have the pleasure of
12 being able to see you and follow you. I apologise for having to say that,
13 but given the present conditions that would be a good idea.
14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No problem, Your Honour.
15 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic, we are in
10 open session. Please proceed.
11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. You mentioned your sister yesterday. What education has she had?
13 A. She has completed primary school.
14 Q. Thank you. What was her profession?
15 A. [redacted]
17 Q. Was she [redacted]
18 A. Yes, she was [redacted]
19 Q. You said that she and [redacted]; is that
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How old were those children?
23 A. [redacted], the eldest child was 6 and the younger one was 4 years
25 Q. [redacted]
1 A. [redacted].
2 MR. SAXON: May we go into private session, please, so as not to
3 provide any more information regarding identity of certain people?
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private
6 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Witness AW, you didn't say what education he had had. Was he a
13 skilled worker?
14 A. He was a highly skilled worker, a highly skilled mechanic, a
15 chocolate maker.
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. He --
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So we agree that your sister worked as a semi-skilled worker and
19 your brother-in-law worked as a foreman; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How much did they earn at that time? Because we know the type of
22 factories those were.
23 A. [redacted]
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.
1 MR. SAXON: I would repeat the same objection, Your Honour. Could
2 we go into private session for these questions, please? It may lead to
3 the identification of this witness and his family. And what has just been
4 said be redacted from the record, regarding where this person worked and
5 what his position was and what his salary was.
6 JUDGE WALD: I'm sorry. I just think that's very relevant
7 information, you know, what his salary was, et cetera.
8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm sorry. It was not my intention to
9 erase it from the record; it was simply that this information remain in
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there were 4.000
13 employees in the factory, Your Honour. I apologise for interrupting, but
14 may I just say that there were 4.000 employees working in the factory.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. But let us go into
16 private session nonetheless so that Mr. Saxon can make his objection. Is
17 that right? Private session, please.
18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you
19 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You can go ahead now. We're in
5 open session.
6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Witness AW, your brother-in-law and your sister, did they have a
8 house along the coast, because that was fashionable at the time?
9 A. Yes, they did. They had a house by the coastal town of Zadar.
10 They had a weekend cottage there.
11 Q. What place?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and Mr. Simic repeat that last
13 bit, please.
14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. The financial situation of your sister and her husband, was it any
16 different to the other people who worked in production in the field they
18 A. Yes, it did, because my late brother-in-law was an only child and
19 he inherited property from his parents.
20 Q. What did he inherit?
21 A. [redacted]
22 Q. What was that?
23 A. He inherited a substantial amount of land, and as he wasn't able
24 to cultivate the land himself, he sold plots of land and had a lot of
1 Q. When did he sell the plot of land?
2 A. I think in the 1970s sometime. I'm not sure when.
3 Q. When did he build a new house?
4 A. Between 1980 and 1983.
5 Q. After selling the land?
6 A. Yes, after selling the land.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. In his area where his land was, a new bridge was being built,
9 called the viaduct, for a new bypass on the Prijedor to Sanski Most road,
10 and he received a high remuneration. He was compensated a great deal for
11 that plot of land.
12 Q. How high was the compensation? I'm a lawyer. I know how much
13 land is per square metre.
14 A. Well, he got other land below Prijedor so that was compensation in
15 land, and he got a certain sum of money as well, although I don't know
16 exactly how much.
17 Q. But you said a moment ago that he got a large sum of money.
18 A. Well, it was probably a large sum because he changed cars every
19 year, and he built a three-storey house. He had some very nice furniture
20 in the house. They went to the seaside every year and so on and so
22 JUDGE RIAD: Please, will the interpreters say "question" and
23 "answer," otherwise we can get mixed up. Thank you.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Yesterday you testified that as part of your military duty, you
2 were deployed to the reserve police force; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When?
5 A. I was assigned, having done my Yugoslav Peoples' Army service in
6 1977, that was the first time.
7 Q. You say the first time?
8 A. Yes, the first time.
9 Q. Did you have a rank in the army of any kind?
10 A. I had the rank of corporal -- sergeant, I beg your pardon,
12 Q. To what police station were you assigned for the first time as a
13 member of the reserve police force?
14 A. If I tell you the place -- I don't know how to answer that.
15 Q. Well, we'll go into private session if we need to, Witness.
16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may we go into private
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let us move into private
20 [Private session]
13 Pages 12017 to 12021 redacted private session.
17 [Open session]
18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Witness AW, what were your first contacts with the OTP? How did
20 you come into contact with them for the first time?
21 A. The first time I came into contact with the Office of the
22 Prosecutor was when I was called in the place where I now reside and asked
23 whether I would talk to them.
24 Q. When was that?
25 A. It was last year.
1 Q. What did you say?
2 A. I said that I would be willing to talk but that I can't come here,
3 and they came to see me in the place where I live.
4 Q. Can you tell us what month that was?
5 A. I think it was in September last year. I'm not quite sure, but it
6 was towards the end of last year.
7 Q. Who came to see you on that occasion?
8 A. I don't know whether I can mention names.
9 Q. Yes, you can.
10 A. An interpreter came to talk to me, Elvira, and Tariq Malik.
11 Q. Witness AW, during that conversation, did they caution you and
12 tell you that you must speak the truth, that the conversation was being
13 recorded, and that you had to tell them everything you knew?
14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw that question. There's
15 no need to object. You don't have to expound on that. I withdraw my
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Please proceed,
18 Mr. Simic.
19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Witness AW, when they came and introduced themselves, what
21 happened then?
22 A. They called me up on the telephone and told me to contact -- to go
23 to the police station in the place I live.
24 Q. What happened when you got there?
25 A. I arrived at around 10.00. They were waiting for me there and
1 took me off to a private -- to have a private conversation at the police
2 station, the place I live.
3 Q. What was the procedure governing that conversation? How did the
4 conversation proceed?
5 A. Well, it was a private procedure. I was told to recount my
6 experiences during the war; that is to say, from 1992 up to the Dayton
8 Q. Was the interpreter interpreting all this all the time?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you agree to have the services of an interpreter?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How were your questions and answers recorded?
13 A. It was a private conversation. He asked me questions and I
14 answered; that was all.
15 Q. Were you cautioned to tell the truth and that that -- what you
16 said might be used at the Tribunal, and so on and so forth?
17 A. They said it was my goodwill, up to me whether I would agree to
18 come to the Tribunal or not.
19 Q. Witness AW, I didn't ask you that. I asked you whether they
20 cautioned you as to the purpose of the informative talk, the
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did they tell you that it was for the purposes of the
24 International Tribunal? Did they caution you of that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did they tell you that you must not tell lies?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who made a record of this? Was it recorded in any way?
4 A. My notes -- the notes were kept by Mr. Tariq Malik. He made
6 Q. At the end, as the interpreter was there, did they read back the
7 notes to you to see what you had said?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Those notes, did they reflect the contents of what you had told
10 Mr. Tariq Malik?
11 A. More or less, yes.
12 Q. On that occasion, did you have to sign anything?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Could you tell us how long the conversation went on for?
15 A. The first talk lasted I think about three hours.
16 Q. And the second conversation, when did that come about?
17 A. I think that was in January of this year.
18 Q. How did you come into contact then?
19 A. The same way, by telephone, and then they came to my place of
20 residence to see me.
21 Q. Who came this time, this second time?
22 A. Also Tariq Malik.
23 Q. Do you remember the interpreter? Was it the same interpreter?
24 A. No, it wasn't the same young lady. It was someone else.
25 Q. Were you cautioned once again, the same way, as to how you should
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you said, in spite of that, that you wanted to make a
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How long did that conversation --
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.
8 MR. SAXON: Mr. Simic is testifying for this witness. At no time
9 has this witness ever said or suggested that he wanted to make a
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.
12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I really don't understand this
13 objection. The witness came, talked. All I'm asking him is whether he
14 went through the procedure, which is a very strict procedure in cases of
15 this kind.
16 MR. SAXON: Well, if I may respond, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.
18 MR. SAXON: That may be, but that was not the question that
19 Mr. Simic asked. Mr. Simic asked: "And you said, in spite of that, that
20 you wanted to make a statement?" At no time has this witness ever said
21 such a thing, and it is a leading question and it could be confusing to
22 this witness. It should be rephrased.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you understand, Mr. Simic,
24 the nature of the objection made by Mr. Saxon?
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I'll restate my question.
1 I'll reformulate my question.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead. Reformulate it,
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Witness AW, on that occasion did Mr. Malik ask you whether you
6 wanted to talk to him and whether you wished to make a statement?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. SAXON: Same objection, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the objection,
10 Mr. Saxon?
11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, as you know and as Mr. Simic knows, the
12 term "statement" in this Tribunal has a very specific legal meaning and it
13 has very real legal implications, particularly in terms of disclosure
14 obligations under Rule 66. So if Mr. Simic is going to be asking this
15 witness questions such as "Did you tell him that you wished to make a
16 statement?" we need to be very clear that the witness understands what
17 Mr. Simic means by the word "statement." Does he mean a formal document
18 that is signed and acknowledged by this witness, or does it mean that this
19 witness simply agrees to talk to a representative of the Office of the
20 Prosecutor? Those are two very different things and that needs to be made
21 clear to this witness.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we are aware of a problem
23 here between the Defence and the Prosecution. Mr. Krstan Simic, do you
24 understand the contents of the objection, the merits of the objection made
25 by Mr. Saxon?
1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand the
2 contents of the objection perfectly, and I will quote you: We are aware
3 of a problem. We are reasonable people. I simply cannot have any
4 different interpretation. On two occasions, in the presence of the main
5 investigator for this case, an interview was made with this witness. I
6 think it is a kind of statement, because it contains information about
7 what the witness is going to talk about.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, when you use the term
9 "statement," we have to be clear. We have to make a distinction between
10 an oral statement and a written statement in order to avoid confusion.
11 Can you proceed? Can you continue cross-examining the witness bearing in
12 mind that distinction?
13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue.
15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. On that occasion, you spoke to Mr. Malik, for how many times?
17 A. For the second time. In the morning we started at about 10.00 and
18 in the afternoon at about half past 3.00, and we had a lunch break in
20 Q. On that occasion, when you finished, did Mr. Malik read out to you
21 what you had told him and did you have any objections to that?
22 A. Yes, he read it out, and I didn't have any objections, but he
23 didn't ask me to sign anything, and I didn't sign anything.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Simic repeat his question.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, there is a witness
1 who is in front of you -- Mr. Kvocka, I'm sorry, there is a witness who is
2 here in the courtroom. Will you please try not to smile and make
3 non-verbal comments.
4 Mr. Simic, you have to be careful about these things. We cannot
5 have any influence exerted over the witness. Please try to refrain from
6 such behaviour. I myself am also trying to refrain to make any non-verbal
7 comments or to smile. Please continue, Mr. Simic.
8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Q. Your sister --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- she also lives in a third country, doesn't she?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did she ever make contact with the Office of the Prosecutor? Do
14 you know that?
15 A. Yes, she was interviewed once.
16 Q. Do you know who she talked to?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Who did she talk to?
19 A. After the interview of Tariq Malik with me, he also talked to
21 Q. Did you talk about the questions that were asked of her by
22 Mr. Malik?
23 A. No, we were at least 200 kilometres apart.
24 Q. And later on, did you ever have an opportunity to ask your sister
25 -- did she have an opportunity to ask you about what Mr. Malik had asked
1 you in that interview?
2 A. We spoke over the telephone a little, but I didn't want to talk
3 about it over the telephone. We didn't want to make any comments over the
5 Q. Do you often see your sister?
6 A. Once in two or three months.
7 Q. When, approximately, did your sister talk to Mr. Malik?
8 A. I believe that conversation took place also in January this year.
9 Q. When did you leave the area of Prijedor municipality?
10 A. On the 29th of March 1994.
11 Q. In order to leave the area of the Prijedor municipality, what kind
12 of action did you have to undertake at that time?
13 A. Since the International Red Cross came to Prijedor from Banja Luka
14 once a week, I managed to register myself with them and they gave me an
15 opportunity to talk to them, and it was with their assistance that I
16 managed to leave Bosnia and Herzegovina.
17 Q. Did you have to submit a written request to leave Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina on that occasion?
19 A. The International Red Cross took it upon itself to do it on my
20 behalf. I didn't have any obligations in that respect. They did
22 Q. What about your sister?
23 A. She left one month before me. Also with the assistance of the
24 International Red Cross, she left the area of the Prijedor municipality.
25 Q. Did she have to undergo the same procedure as yourself?
1 A. Yes, she did.
2 Q. Yesterday you testified that your sister had been in Tukovi in
3 1993. Could you tell us the exact address at which your sister lived in
5 MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.
7 MR. SAXON: Perhaps we could go into private session before this
8 question is answered because it may help identify the sister of this
9 witness. And I do have to note that the direct examination --
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Krstan Simic, when you
11 ask for the exact address of the sister -- that is to say, do you accept
12 this objection or not?
13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of caution, yes, I
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Then we will move
16 into private session.
17 [Private session]
13 Pages 12032 to 12036 redacted private session.
24 [Open session]
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. When you came back on the first or second day, did you stop off at
2 somebody's house to have a drink, a brandy?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you know Mrs. Jasminka Crnalic?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you know Mrs. Jasminka Kvocka?
7 A. I met her once, in front of the Red Cross in Prijedor.
8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] May we go into private session now,
9 please, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, very well. I won't
11 ask you to reorganise your cross-examination for your questions to go in
12 and out of open session. But yes, let's go back into private session, and
13 could you take advantage of this occasion and ask all the questions you
14 need to in private session now.
15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. You said you lived at [redacted]
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Not yet. Just a moment,
20 [Private session]
13 Page 12039 redacted private session
13 Page 12040 redacted private session.
16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're in open session.
18 Mr. Saxon, in order to know when to take the break, could you tell me how
19 much time you need for your additional questions, more or less.
20 MR. SAXON: About five minutes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Five minutes. Okay. Very
22 well. Please go ahead.
23 Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:
24 Q. Witness AW, you mentioned that in 1990 it was the Territorial
25 Defence that appointed you as a reserve police commander.
1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The witness did not say
4 "Territorial Defence." He said the Secretariat for National Defence.
5 Those are two completely different concepts.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon.
7 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, in the English translation, if my notes
8 are correct, the witness said "the Territorial Defence," if my notes are
9 correct. We're checking it now. Page 50 of the English -- 15 of the
10 English translation uses the term "the Territorial Defence," Your Honour.
11 Perhaps the witness can clarify that. It's all right.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I think we ought to
13 clarify that point. Do you have an objection, Mr. Simic, us clarifying
14 the situation? Anything against that, Mr. Simic?
15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The witness can clarify, yes, Your
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Saxon.
18 MR. SAXON:
19 Q. Witness AW, in 1990, when you were appointed as the
20 commander -- as a reserve police commander, where did this appointment or
21 decision come from? Who appointed you?
22 A. After my sickness, from 1988 to 1990, I was transferred to the
23 Territorial Defence. In 1990, the Territorial Defence transferred me to
24 the National Defence in Prijedor, and that's where I received my
1 Q. All right. Was this assignment something -- was this a written
2 assignment that you received in writing?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you still have a copy of this?
5 A. No.
6 Q. During your cross-examination you were asked where you dug on the
7 first day when you went to Carakovo, and you had explained that on the
8 first day you didn't find anything, although your sister had described to
9 you the place where the valuables had been buried. Do you know whether
10 you were digging at the exactly correct place on that first day?
11 A. As the house and the shed and the outhouses were in a state of
12 disrepair, the grass had grown high, I wasn't able to find the place the
13 first time, regardless of my sister's descriptions of it, because the area
14 had become overgrown.
15 Q. Then was it with your sister's help on the second day of digging
16 that you were able to locate the valuables that were buried there?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Simic asked you how long -- how much time you spent digging,
19 and I believe you mentioned that you dug for a total of ten hours. Is
20 that a total of ten hours, was that a total of ten hours over two days; in
21 other words, several hours on the first day and then some more hours on
22 the second day?
23 A. Yes, both days.
24 Q. You mentioned that you left Prijedor in 1994. Prior to leaving,
25 were you thrown out of your apartment?
1 A. In February 1994, a man came to my apartment who worked in the Red
2 Cross of Prijedor, and I was thrown out of my apartment.
3 Q. Who was that man?
4 A. He was the secretary of the Red Cross of Prijedor. I don't know
5 whether I need to state his name.
6 MR. SAXON: May I have the Court's indulgence, please.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. SAXON:
9 Q. Yes. Can you give us the name, please, of the person who forced
10 you out of the apartment?
11 A. [redacted]
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, with that
13 information, are you not identifying the witness as well. We're in open
14 session now, Mr. Saxon.
15 MR. SAXON: I stand corrected, Your Honour, and I apologise. That
16 was a careless error on my part, yes. I stand corrected.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Do you need us to go into
18 private session at this point?
19 MR. SAXON: No, I would simply ask if that name could be redacted
20 from the public record.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. Please
22 proceed, and we're going to have the name redacted.
23 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour, for bringing that to my
25 Q. Witness AW, you mentioned that your brother-in-law's watch that
1 was found in that box was out of order and you asked for it as a
2 remembrance of your brother-in-law. What do you mean the watch was "out
3 of order;" was it broken?
4 A. Not my brother, my brother-in-law, meaning my sister's husband.
5 Q. Yes. Regarding your brother-in-law, was the watch, was your
6 brother-in-law's watch that you asked for as a remembrance, was it broken?
7 A. It was broken, full of water and had stopped, wasn't working.
8 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions.
9 I do have one more, Your Honour.
10 Q. May I ask the witness, please: Were you asked to keep your
11 brother-in-law's watch?
12 A. Yes. I took the watch to my sister and she probably has it today,
13 to this day, as a keepsake and remembrance of her husband.
14 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if you will permit me one more question
15 just as a point of clarification.
16 Q. You mentioned that you had what you called normal contacts with
17 Mr. Gruban in 1993 and 1994. After this incident where you found these
18 valuables, did Mr. Gruban ever give you any of the gold back?
19 A. No.
20 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
22 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE RIAD: Witness AW, good morning. Can you hear me?
25 A. Yes, I can.
1 JUDGE RIAD: I just have a few clarifications to -- to ask you.
2 Starting with the -- what you said this morning, you mentioned that
3 although you did not work with Mr. Kvocka, you would meet at meetings, at
4 certain meetings. In this kind of meeting, did you ever antagonize him or
5 did he ever antagonize you? How was the relationship?
6 A. They were working meetings at the police station in Prijedor and
7 I -- we never had conflicts of any kind. No antagonism.
8 JUDGE RIAD: And with regard to the distribution, you mentioned
9 the dividing of the jewellery which happened between Mr. Gruban and
10 Mr. Kvocka and you asked for your brother-in-law's watch. Did you get any
11 other thing, any other share of this distribution?
12 A. Everything that was of any value or gold, I didn't get anything of
13 that. They gave me things which were of very little value or completely
14 worthless to take them to my sister.
15 JUDGE RIAD: Out of their good heart or did you ask for them or
16 was it divided between you three on equal shares? How did it happen?
17 A. No, it was not divided in three equal shares because the really
18 valuable things and the gold were put aside, and what was worthless was
19 either thrown away or given to me to take it to my sister.
20 JUDGE RIAD: So the main things were divided between Mr. Gruban
21 and Mr. Kvocka?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE RIAD: And who took the lion's share, if you noticed?
24 A. They divided it equally.
25 JUDGE RIAD: But in general in this relationship, who was really
1 the boss in this operation?
2 A. I think that Miroslav Kvocka was superior to Momcilo Gruban, and I
3 think that Momcilo Gruban obeyed Miroslav Kvocka but they, nevertheless,
4 divided it equally.
5 JUDGE RIAD: So what makes you conclude that there was this
6 hierarchy during all these events?
7 A. Because Momcilo Gruban was a member of the reserve police force at
8 the Omarska police station.
9 JUDGE RIAD: But in the relationship itself during the operation,
10 did you notice this difference? Who was leading this operation?
11 A. The two of them made agreements, I think, because of the fact that
12 they were friends. They were equal. They made equal decisions.
13 JUDGE RIAD: So it was a completely private operation between them
14 or did it have some kind of official character?
15 A. I think it was more like a private agreement that the two of them
16 had reached.
17 JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you moved around, it was in Mr. Kvocka's
18 car, if I understood rightly, and it was --
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE RIAD: And it was registered with the SUP?
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE RIAD: Were all cars registered with the SUP or only the
23 cars of official people?
24 A. It was not a police vehicle. It was a private car of Mr. Miroslav
25 Kvocka, and it bore the signs of Prijedor, the letters of Prijedor. I
1 don't remember the number.
2 JUDGE RIAD: It was a private car, but if I understood rightly,
3 when you passed by the checkpoint there was no obstacle, you would pass
4 through, nobody would stop you?
5 A. No, because the checkpoints were mainly manned by police officers
6 and they knew each other. They would meet every day. They knew about
7 other police officers' cars.
8 JUDGE RIAD: And you mentioned that you were greeted, you were
9 being greeted with this kind of three-fingers greeting and so on. Is this
10 kind of greeting to -- a usual one or only done to superiors?
11 A. It is a usual salute, a Serb national salute, three-finger
13 JUDGE RIAD: You also mentioned that Mr. Kvocka told Gruban to
14 hurry up while you were digging and Gruban conveyed to you this order and
15 then you heard somebody saying "Or you will be dug in yourself." Was that
16 from Gruban or from Mr. Kvocka?
17 A. Yes, that is what I heard.
18 JUDGE RIAD: Whose voice was it?
19 A. Momcilo Gruban came to me, and the two of them were talking so I
20 could hear Miroslav Kvocka too, and it was Mr. Gruban who conveyed me
22 JUDGE RIAD: Could you say that it was Mr. Gruban who was pushing
23 you more or it was the same thing between the two?
24 A. I believe it was the same thing.
25 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge
3 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.
4 JUDGE WALD: Witness AW, I just have a couple of questions. Do
5 you know of any reason why your sister wouldn't have -- didn't dig up her
6 valuables before this incident? She had been, I take it, out of her
7 regular house for some time. Is there any reason why she kept them hidden
8 there and hadn't come to get them either with your help or by herself
9 before that?
10 A. There are several reasons for that. The main one being the fact
11 that after the ethnic cleansing of the village of Carakovo, Muslims didn't
12 dare approach the area at all. And even if they had an escort, they
13 simply didn't dare go there because of the number of killings that had
14 taken place there, except, of course, for the Serb soldiers and the
16 JUDGE WALD: So the fact that she did go with you and Messrs.
17 Kvocka and Gruban on the second day, that was because she was protected by
18 their presence. That she dared to go with you people the second day to
19 dig it up, was that because Gruban and Kvocka were with her and so
20 therefore would -- she wouldn't need to fear?
21 A. We went there together, my sister and myself, because we knew that
22 since we were together with some police officers, that we would not be
23 stopped on the way. And second, we knew that if we refused to go, that we
24 would suffer consequences, and that is why we decided to go and see what
1 JUDGE WALD: Okay. That's my second question. We're now -- I
2 understand the incident happened around January 1993, that's what my notes
3 say. When did it happen?
4 A. It was at the end of the winter, beginning of spring, end of
5 February, beginning of March. I know that snow was melting.
6 JUDGE WALD: All right. I think you said early 1993 and that's
7 consistent with that. But my basic question is: At this point,
8 Mr. Gruban, Mr. Kvocka, are working someplace in the police force. What
9 was the authority that you and your sister were so fearful of that you
10 felt you had to comply with this request and go out and dig up all her
11 valuables, even though she wasn't living in that immediate area at the
12 time? I mean what -- what's -- you've said several times that you were
13 afraid of what would happen. Could you be a little bit more specific?
14 What authority did they have that you were -- if they had any, that you
15 were afraid of so that you -- you and your sister felt you had to do
17 A. The Serb police and the army had all the power regardless of the
18 exact location, whether it was in Prijedor itself or in the surroundings
19 of the town of Prijedor. And in view of such circumstances, in cases of
20 an order coming from the Serb police or soldiers, we simply had to obey
21 and follow them.
22 JUDGE WALD: So if it hadn't been Mr. Gruban or Mr. Kvocka, but it
23 had been some other Serbs who had called you, you would have done the same
24 thing or was it particularly important that they were members, to some
25 degree, the reserve or active, of the police force? Would you have done
1 the same thing if any Serb -- Bosnian Serb who wasn't a police member had
2 called you and asked you for the same thing?
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 JUDGE WALD: Did you ever have any reason to figure out how they
5 knew about its being buried there to begin with, or did you feel they knew
6 or when -- when Gruban called you they were just making a guess that your
7 sister and her family had some money and must have done something with
9 A. Many Serb police officers and soldiers boasted about the fact that
10 they had found a large amount of money and jewellery, especially in
11 Kozarac, which was one of the wealthiest villages in the area. Next came
12 Carakovo. So they were aware of the -- of a certain number of large
13 families living in the area who had buried the money. So they based
14 themselves on that assumption and they thought that there was a lot of
15 money and gold buried in Carakovo, and that's why they decided to go and
16 search elsewhere, not only in Kozarac and Carakovo.
17 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge
20 Witness AW, we don't have any additional questions for you. Thank
21 you very much for coming here to testify. I will now ask the usher to
22 accompany you out of the courtroom. Thank you very much. Please do not
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We will have a 30-minute break
1 at this point.
2 --- Recess taken at 11.06 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.42 a.m.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
5 Mr. Waidyaratne.
6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution would call
7 the next witness, Edin Karagic.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. You
10 didn't see me. Your Honours, before the next witness is shown in, I would
11 like to make a request.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, just a
13 minute. I'm not getting the interpretation. What's happening to the
15 Yes, Mr. Simic.
16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] During yesterday's testimony of
17 Witness AW, my learned colleague said that the witness had his first
18 contact with the OTP in the course of this weekend. During today's
19 testimony we heard, without any reservations whatsoever, that Witness AW
20 talked on two occasions, and that on that occasion a record of his
21 interview was read out to him and that he agreed that it reflects what he
22 said, what he talked about with the investigator of the Tribunal,
23 Mr. Tariq Malik, and that in the same way they had an interview with his
24 sister. So we should like to request that those documents be disclosed to
25 us, regardless of the form they took. We consider these documents to be
1 highly vital, which to a large extent could have jeopardised the right of
2 the Defence to timely information and preparation for the Defence case.
3 There is no question that these statements were read out to him. Whether
4 they were signed or not signed is irrelevant, but we consider that they
5 must be disclosed, because it is something that was recorded and read back
6 to the witness.
7 Let me also mention that in this courtroom we had occasion when
8 witnesses had notes in front of -- before them, and my learned colleagues
9 from the Prosecution asked to see what those notes were during the
10 testimony, whereas the Defence was denied the right of having a record of
11 this informative conversation or interview which the witness confirmed as
12 being his, and I don't think that they can rely on any Rule in the Rules
13 of Procedure and Evidence of this Tribunal to back up what they say.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.
15 MS. SOMERS: I think my learned colleague has no legal ground upon
16 which to make this request. First of all, this should be the subject of
17 argument at the end. However -- however, I call the attention of my
18 colleague to Rule 70, that any notes taken by an investigator are not, are
19 not, the subject of disclosure. A statement has been carefully defined.
20 It is a term of art in this Tribunal.
21 JUDGE WALD: Where? I went into the Rules looking for a
22 definition of a statement.
23 MS. SOMERS: It's not in the Rules, Your Honour. The Blaskic
24 Chamber took this matter up. I'd have to look the citation up, because
25 there was a question of what needs to be turned up and what doesn't, and
1 items such as diaries, et cetera. A statement was defined as -- I don't
2 want to give you a misinterpretation, but it talks about -- it gives a
3 definition, but it was out of the Blaskic case, and if the Chamber would
4 like, we can find it. But notes, interviews that are taken by
5 investigators of the Tribunal, for whatever case, are not subject of
6 disclosure, and there is simply no basis for this request and there really
7 was no prejudice.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, would you like
9 to reply?
10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I would. Your Honours, all
11 statements taken from a witness are taken by the investigators of the
12 Tribunal. If I were to follow the legal logics of my learned friend
13 across the well, it would emerge that no statement which the investigator
14 does not have signed needn't be disclosed, and I can't find that anywhere
15 in the Rules; that is to say, where it says that the Defence need not --
16 that disclosure need not be made to the Defence which is to its advantage
17 and can help it in its case. I would like the statement of Witness AW's
18 sister as well.
19 My colleague has brought my attention to Rule 66(A)(ii), copies of
20 the statements of all witnesses. Now, the question arises of what a
21 witness statement is. A witness statement is an interview when the
22 witness provides certain facts once he has been cautioned as to procedure,
23 as to consequence, and so on. So it is not being discussed whether the
24 witness wishes to give a statement. He has given a statement. He is
25 being interpreted, and the statement is read back to him and he says,
1 "Yes, that is the contents of what I said or what my statement is. Not
2 my story. It is the statement."
3 We're talking about the substance of the matter, the core of the
4 matter which requires that such a document be disclosed and that the
5 Defence has the right to full and complete information, particularly if
6 those statements contain facts which go to the advantage of the accused.
7 Then it is an especial obligation that documents of that kind be provided
8 to the Defence.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, we risk
10 prolonging the debate in this way. Normally we give you the chance to
11 take the floor, the other person replies, and that's it. But where will
12 this lead us? When are we going to end if we keep going backwards and
14 MS. SOMERS: I just wanted to give the Chamber the actual part of
15 Rule 70, it's Rule 70(A).
16 JUDGE WALD: Says what?
17 MS. SOMERS: Is says, "Notwithstanding the provisions of Rules 66
18 and 67, reports, memoranda, or other internal documents prepared by a
19 party ..."
20 JUDGE WALD: I know that but let me just -- 60 seconds if I may.
21 I'm sure that --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Judge Wald.
23 JUDGE WALD: Coming from our jurisdiction, both you and Mr. Saxon
24 are very familiar with the whole Jencks rule business, and so the question
25 becomes: What is a statement? I, myself, looked to see if there is a
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 definition of a statement in the rules, as you point out. And I know
2 you're talking about work product, but that's not a carefully delineated
4 I haven't read the Blaskic case. That was the trial court's
5 decision, yes, because it hasn't been on appeal yet. I don't know what it
6 says. But I would point out that the rule that I'm familiar with, and
7 that you have to be familiar with from ours, is that if there is any
8 recording of a substantially verbatim account of an oral statement that's
9 made by a witness, by a Prosecution witness, I'm just saying that in our
10 system at least, that was recorded contemporaneously with the making of
11 the oral statement, it is defined as a statement and has to be given up.
12 Only I say -- I think there's a question here. I don't know how it's
13 going to be answered, but I don't think it's answered by just saying work
14 product notes and everything else can't be a statement. It depends upon
16 For instance, if -- if, I have no idea, but if that witness gave a
17 lot of things and then somebody took detailed notes including quotes,
18 verbatim statements, read it back to him, under our system that would be a
19 statement. I guess that's what the debate is.
20 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I will just -- again, just want to limit
21 my response to draw your attention to the provisions upon which so far the
22 Tribunal has drawn, and I'll try to find the Blaskic language.
23 JUDGE WALD: I would like to see that jurisprudence because ...
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. For my part, I have a
25 question. I am aware of the situation that Ms. Susan Somers has referred
1 to, referring to Blaskic, and I'd like to ask you a question, Ms. Susan
3 Those notes taken by the investigator which he read back to the
4 witness and were confirmed by the witness, now, if those notes were signed
5 by the witness, would that be a -- make it a statement? What is the
6 difference? Or let me put it another way. What would be the distinction
7 between notes taken by an investigator which, at the end are read back to
8 the person and said, "Is that what you said, and do you confirm that?"
9 That's one situation.
10 And another situation is where he confirms it and signs it, plus
11 signature. Do you see a distinction and what distinction do you see with
12 respect to our Rules in those two cases, the confirmed but not signed, and
13 the confirmed and signed?
14 MS. SOMERS: The aspect of adoption, formal adoption of the
15 complete statement, the complete writing as read back would be one
16 consideration. But oftentimes, as I'm sure Your Honour is aware, given
17 your background, what is taken in a witness interview is not just the
18 witness' comment but the observations, the perceptions of the
19 investigator. Many issues that bear on the perhaps issues of credibility
20 or issues that might link back to other witnesses.
21 So notes taken by an investigator in the course of interviewing a
22 witness, irrespective of how many times a witness is interviewed, can have
23 a number of points on them and do not represent any final or even
24 necessarily draft product of what had taken place, the exchange that had
25 taken place between the investigator and the witness. Refinement into a
1 proper statement to read back -- to take out subjective observations,
2 conclusions that have nothing really to do with the witness' own responses
3 or comments.
4 So it is literally perhaps a set of notes from which perhaps the
5 content that was provided by a witness may be checked back against the
6 witness. That would be, in my system, the normal thing to do. But it
7 would not in any way be a statement as we would refer to it for law
8 enforcement purposes. It is observations that may have been checked again
9 for accuracy but it doesn't constitute the format in which a witness would
10 be in a position to ratify them.
11 JUDGE RIAD: Ms. Somers, there is another issue, in my opinion,
12 which Mr. Simic raised. Regardless of the query about what a statement
13 is, whatever is in the interest of the accused, what comes out in the
14 interview in the interest of the accused, would it be fair to transmit it
15 to the Defence?
16 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, if, in -- I will wait for the
18 JUDGE RIAD: But I'm speaking English.
19 MS. SOMERS: Yes, I want to make sure that the -- if, in fact,
20 there were any Rule 68 material that would come to the attention of the
21 investigator, that would of course be transmitted. We have an obligation,
22 irrespective of at what phase that comes into our knowledge, to transmit
23 that. But other matters that are strictly investigative that are not 68
24 would retain, I believe, the special consideration of the Rule that has
25 been set out in Rule 70. I believe there was a sound reason for that
1 Rule. Does that answer Your Honour's question?
2 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, thank you.
3 JUDGE WALD: I've got one follow-up, though. I'm sure again
4 you're familiar, of course, of statements -- or, of course, investigators'
5 notes may have a lot of material observations, but I mean the way that's
6 handled in the system you and I are familiar with is that's redacted. I
7 mean, if, for instance - let me give you an example - somebody is
8 interviewing a potential government witness. In the course of the
9 interview the government witness says, "I never saw the accused any place
10 in the whole area." And then the investigator -- it contains a lot of
11 things: the accused appeared glassy-eyed, the accused -- you know, all
12 sorts of other stuff like that. I think, at least in my experience, that
13 would be considered a statement, what he actually said that was
14 substantially verbatim. The whole notes would not be given over, because
15 it would contain other material and other material would be redacted. So
16 I'm just saying I think the fact that there's other material in there
17 doesn't always, at least in all systems, mean that it's not a statement.
18 And I think generally, the final recourse is if there's a question, if
19 it's a narrow question, the Court looks at it and makes a decision whether
20 or not it is a substantially verbatim recording or not.
21 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I just wanted to comment on
22 Your Honour's observation in that Your Honour is from the federal system
23 and I am from a different system, and we have quite different rules of
24 discovery. Thank you.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but we will have to decide
1 on this matter with the system we have. It is our Rules, the Tribunal's
2 Rules and system, and not my national one, for example.
3 I have another question. Perhaps it's a provocation, in the good
4 sense of the word, for Ms. Susan Somers. If, as an investigator, I take
5 notes or I record what the witness has told me, and then afterwards I turn
6 towards the witness and say, "Is what I have written down what you
7 actually said?" and the witness says yes, the person says yes, then I make
8 a whole series of comments. That's one situation. The other situation is
9 that I have a very good memory, an elephant's memory, and I don't need to
10 make notes. I interview a witness and I record in my memory; I remember
11 everything that the person said and the words he said it in.
12 Now, in the first instance, is it a statement? Do we have a
13 statement or not? And as regards the second case, the second example,
14 have I got a witness statement or not to use in the courtroom? Because
15 ultimately, it is a question of what we mean by a statement. Is it the
16 contents of information or is it the form? Is it the substance or the
17 form? And that's the question that Mr. Krstan Simic has actually raised.
18 What counts? Is it the substance or the form?
19 So in my first example, the expression of everything that the
20 witness said, with my investigator's notes, all together, taken all
21 together. Now, will I get round that and not term it a statement if I add
22 my notes as investigator? Or in the second case, my memory recorded
23 everything that the witness said, but I wrote nothing down. Is that a
24 statement or not? Do we have a statement or not? So that is food for
25 thought, and may I have your reactions there, Ms. Somers.
1 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, because the -- I do want to point out
2 one thing or remind the Court, the Chamber, that when, for example, the
3 Prosecution attempted to use documents which purported to be statements,
4 as it were, or summaries of matters -- I believe one was a particular
5 witness who had been -- a Serb witness who had been in the custody of the
6 army of BiH, there was a hue and a cry about it: It's not signed, it's
7 not ratified, et cetera, et cetera. And I -- that is one initial just
8 observation that came to my mind.
9 Things that are recorded by investigators, even if reflecting
10 exactly the terms of a conversation between a witness, may or may not
11 constitute, under Rule 66, a statement, and therefore -- and even things
12 that are necessarily adopted by the witness. There were some conditions
13 precedent in the Blaskic decision which I would like to have the benefit
14 of in order to try to tie in a lot of the points that have been raised by
15 the Chamber, and I'm terribly sorry that I do not have it in front of me.
16 But diaries, for example, which are actually made by the witness are not
17 subject -- were ruled as not subject to disclosure for a number of
18 reasons. And I think it depends on -- it depends on purpose, it depends
19 on the stage. Sometimes you meet with a -- one meets with a witness a
20 number of times and it is not a complete transaction for purposes of
21 completing an interview. And I don't think that there's any one
22 conclusive answer, because investigative technique will vary. One
23 investigator may find that he or she needs, for a particular case or other
24 cases or for general background, to obtain information. So I don't know
25 that I can actually limit the use or definition of statement of a
1 breakdown of form or content at this point. But if I may have -- if the
2 Chamber would allow an opportunity so that I can make sure I give
3 correctly the pronouncements of the Tribunal as a whole, I think it would
4 probably be more helpful, if I'm -- if that's okay.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We will have to make a ruling.
6 We are familiar with the Blaskic decision and we will have recourse to
7 it. For the time being, I just wanted to hear the views of the parties,
8 but we are not going to rule on the issue immediately. I will once again
9 give the opportunity to Mr. Simic to finish the debate and to add anything
10 that might be of assistance.
11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is beyond dispute,
12 according to the presentation of the witness today, that it is a classical
13 example of statement taking, that it was a classical example of statement
14 taking. My learned colleague is citing different examples. I fully agree
15 with her when she says that a witness diary cannot be treated the same way
16 as an official statement. Likewise, the document which my colleague
17 alluded to, the statement of Djervida Drasko, should receive the statement
18 treated [as interpreted]. I don't see any basis in Rule 70 either which
19 states that reports, memoranda, or other internal documents are not
20 subject to disclosure. An interview of the investigator and the witness
21 who will be called to testify cannot be treated the same way. The essence
22 of such an interview is for the investigator to obtain information which
23 he will use to prove a certain fact, and I don't see any basis whatsoever
24 for such documents, for the documents that were taken from the chief of
25 the investigation team, to be exempt from disclosure. Once again, it is
1 my submission, Your Honour, that it is the obligation of the Prosecutor to
2 disclose such documents.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber will
4 consider the arguments that have been advanced by the parties and make a
5 ruling. We have to give it a little thought. I don't think that we are
6 ready to make a ruling right away. But be that as it may - and I do not
7 wish to influence you in any way and I wouldn't like to let you know right
8 away what my thoughts are on the matter, because I'm familiar with the
9 Blaskic decision and some other jurisprudence - but we will make a
10 ruling. But the debate is closed.
11 If there are no other comments to make, I think that we can
12 proceed with our following witness, whose name was mentioned by
13 Mr. Waidyaratne, and I think that we will be hearing Mr. Edin Karagic, if
14 my pronunciation is correct.
15 Mr. Usher, can we have your assistance, please.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Edin Karagic.
18 Can you hear me?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Yes, I
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will you please read the solemn
22 declaration given to you by the usher.
23 WITNESS: EDIN KARAGIC
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Mr. Karagic,
3 thank you very much for coming here to testify. You will begin by
4 answering questions that will be put to you by Mr. Waidyaratne.
5 Mr. Waidyaratne, you have the floor.
6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:
8 Q. Mr. Karagic, could you please tell the Court your date of birth
9 and place of birth.
10 A. I was born on the 10th of December in Prijedor, 1967.
11 Q. What is your ethnicity?
12 A. Muslim.
13 Q. What's your father's name?
14 A. Vahid.
15 Q. Is he alive?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Could you tell the Court when he passed away?
18 A. He passed away in 1996.
19 Q. How many brothers and sisters did you have before 1992?
20 A. Two brothers and one sister.
21 Q. Could you tell us the names of the two brothers and the sister,
23 A. Sanel and Amel, two brothers, and my sister's name was Edina.
24 Q. Is it correct if I tell you that you were the eldest of the boys?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, in 1992, before the war, where did you reside?
2 A. In Tukovi, at Tode Sakica, house number 2.
3 Q. Was your family, your father and the other members, also living
4 with you in the same house?
5 A. Yes, in the same house.
6 Q. Mr. Karagic, could you tell us as to what your father's profession
7 or what his business was?
8 A. We had a workshop. We repaired truck trailers and we also
9 repaired agricultural machines.
10 Q. Now, you said that your father had a workshop. Were you also
11 employed at the workshop?
12 A. Yes, I was also employed at the workshop.
13 Q. Now, in 1992, if I say -- you said that you were born in 1967.
14 You would have been in 1992 around 25 years or 26 years old; am I
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And you were also employed at the father's workshop?
18 A. Yes, I worked in the workshop.
19 Q. Where was the workshop located?
20 A. It was next to our house. They were part of the same building,
21 located in the same yard.
22 Q. Were you working with your father at the workshop in 1992?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Before 1992, before the war, did you know a person by the name of
25 Drago Prcac?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. How did you know him?
3 A. I knew him because he was a colleague and a friend of my father.
4 I knew him since I was a child.
5 Q. Where did you see him?
6 A. I would see him at the workshop and in town, everywhere.
7 Q. Have you spoken to Mr. Prcac before -- during the time that you
8 saw him before the war?
9 A. Yes. Yes, but briefly. We never engaged in any lengthy
11 Q. Now, is it correct if I tell you that you were arrested on the
12 18th of July 1992?
13 A. Yes, on the 18th of July 1992.
14 Q. Is it correct that you were arrested at your house in Tukovi?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who were the others who was arrested with you?
17 A. My brother Sanel and my uncle's son, Emir, the three of us.
18 Q. And after your arrest, you were taken to the Omarska camp; is that
20 A. Yes, I was first taken to the SUP building in Prijedor and then on
21 the same day, we were transferred to the camp in Omarska.
22 Q. How were you taken to the camp, and who was with you when you were
23 taken to the camp?
24 A. We were taken there in a police vehicle, in a paddy wagon, the
25 Black Maria as we called it.
1 Q. And who was with you in the van?
2 A. Myself, my brother Sanel, and another young man whose surname was
3 Granov. I don't know his name.
4 Q. Now, when you arrived at the camp, Omarska, when the vehicle
5 stopped, do you remember as to what you were asked to do?
6 A. When the door of the van opened, we were ordered to get out. The
7 guards ordered us out of the van, and they started hitting us and pushing
8 us. They told us to lean against the wall with three fingers pushed
9 against the wall and to spread our legs apart.
10 Q. You said that you were asked to lean against the wall; is that
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, at this stage, I would ask for the
14 assistance of the usher to have a photograph marked as 3/301 be shown to
15 the witness and to be placed on the ELMO. Can I have another photograph,
16 I don't know whether -- it's not the photograph but -- now it's clear.
17 Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Witness, please look at the photograph which is on the ELMO. Do
19 you recognise this photograph, a photograph of a model of the Omarska
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Could you show us as to where you were asked to lean when you were
23 asked to get off the van by the guards and when you were beaten? You can
24 do it with the pointer, please. Thank you.
25 A. It happened here behind the administration building.
1 Q. Are you sure that's the place? Could you kindly take a pen or a
2 pencil and mark that place. --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- with a cross and also put your initials EK. Thank you.
5 Do you know, or did you get to know subsequently, as to what that
6 building was called or as to how you all referred to that building? Could
7 you tell the Court as to how you all referred to that building? What did
8 you call that building?
9 A. The investigator's building, administration building, restaurant.
10 It had several names actually.
11 Q. Now, you said you were asked to lean against the wall with three
12 fingers pushed against the wall and to spread your legs apart. Am I
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And did you see the other two persons who came with you at that
16 time, your brother Sanel and the person by the name of Granov?
17 A. Yes, I did. To my left was Granov. Next to him was my brother.
18 Q. Did the guards beat you all?
19 A. Yes, they did.
20 Q. Now, when this happened, did you hear or see anybody at that time?
21 A. While we were standing, leaning against the wall like that,
22 somebody came to me coming from my right-hand side, and he asked me my
23 name, my surname, the name of my father. At that moment, I turned around
24 and I recognised the person in question. It was Drago Prcac. He was
25 standing there with a pencil in his hand and a piece of paper.
1 When I turned around, one of the guards hit me and told me not to
2 turn and, at that point, I told him my name, my surname, and the name of
3 my father.
4 Q. Then you said that you told your name, your surname. Did
5 Mr. Drago Prcac ask you for any other details after that?
6 A. Yes. He asked me the date of my birth and I turned around again,
7 but the same thing happened. Again I was hit by one of the guards and
8 told not to turn.
9 Q. Now, at that instance, did Mr. Prcac ask the guards not to beat
11 A. No.
12 Q. Then what did Mr. Prcac do?
13 A. He moved over to Granov and he asked him the same questions, that
14 is, his particulars including the date of birth, and he did the same with
15 my brother after him.
16 Q. Now, when Mr. Prcac was asking for the details and -- what was
17 happening to you?
18 A. Throughout that time as he was asking us our particulars and
19 asking questions of others, we were constantly beaten.
20 Q. Did Mr. Prcac, when he was asking questions from Mr. Granov, you
21 said that you were being beaten. Did, even at that time, Mr. Prcac ask
22 the guards not to beat you?
23 A. As I said, throughout that time while we were being interrogated,
24 we were also beaten and nobody asked the guards to stop beating us.
25 Q. Now, after Mr. Prcac asked for the details from your brother, did
1 you hear anybody asking anything from the person by the name of Granov who
2 was next to you?
3 A. Yes. An individual asked why our arms were scratched and where we
4 had been, and that -- the person answered, "In the woods."
5 Q. Now, was it only Mr. -- the person by the name of Granov asked
6 that question or were all of you all asked by the ...
7 A. No. He was the only one whom the question was asked as to why his
8 arms were scratched. It concerned him only.
9 Q. And what did you hear? Did Mr. Granov say anything?
10 A. Yes. He said, "In the woods." He replied briefly. After that,
11 they stopped beating me and all of the guards who were there, there may
12 have been five or six of them, they jumped at him and started beating
14 Q. Then did you hear Mr. Prcac saying anything?
15 A. Yes. After a while, I heard him saying, "Stop. No more of that.
16 There will be time for that."
17 Q. Then did the guards stop the beating?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what happened then?
20 A. When they stopped beating us, as soon as they stopped beating us,
21 they started pushing us towards -- to the left side. They didn't say
22 anything, they just kept pushing us. And when I turned around, I saw
23 Drago who was standing to my left, and the guards continued pushing us
24 towards the corner of the administration building.
25 As we were being pushed, I could hear people's names being called
1 out. And when we reached the corner of the building, I saw a very large
2 number of people sitting there and a kind of roll-call was taking place.
3 Q. Now, Witness, please, if you can look at the same exhibit which is
4 on the ELMO. Could you kindly show the Court as to which side you were
5 taken to or you said pushed.
6 A. It is from here that we left moving towards this corner of the
7 building. We were just being pushed towards that corner, but we didn't
8 actually know where they were taking us. And when we moved around the
9 corner, we entered the garage, as we called it. We were taken into that
11 Q. Could you kindly with the pen -- can the usher assist the witness
12 again -- with a pen, with an arrow could you mark the way that you were
13 taken to the garage. Thank you.
14 The arrow indicates the path or the way that you were taken to the
15 garage; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: The exhibit can be removed. Thank you.
18 Q. Now, you said "Drago." When you say "Drago," do you mean
19 Mr. Drago Prcac?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, you said that you were taken to the room in the small garage
22 in the administration building. Did you spend the night, that night in
23 the building?
24 A. Yes, I did. I spent two days in that room.
25 Q. Before we go that far, you said when you turned -- when the guards
1 pushed you towards the -- to take you to the garage, you saw Drago Prcac
2 standing. Did you see as to what Mr. Drago Prcac had in his hands at that
4 A. When I turned round, he was standing not far from me, two or three
5 metres away. He had the same piece of paper, notebook, in his hands.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Karagic, you said that you spent the night in the garage,
7 small garage in the administration building. In the night, did you hear
8 anybody coming into the room?
9 A. Yes. It was already dark, perhaps 11.00 or half past 11.00.
10 Somebody opened the door and came in. Most of the people in the room were
11 sleeping. I was lying down. It was dark in the room. And the person
12 asked, "Where are the new ones?" I couldn't see the people because I
13 pretended I was asleep. I had my eyes closed. One of those people who
14 were with us, an elderly man, said, "Those two fat ones over there," and I
15 knew that that meant us, because we were the fattest there at the time.
16 And one of those two -- I heard two voices, actually. One of the voices
17 said, "I know them. Never mind. Leave them alone." And then they closed
18 the door and left.
19 Q. Mr. Karagic, is it correct if I say that you left Omarska on the
20 6th of August, 1992 and were taken to Manjaca?
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. And then you left Manjaca to Croatia on the 18th of December,
23 1992; is that correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And you came to the Netherlands on the 8th of January, 1993; is
1 that correct?
2 A. That's right, yes.
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... in the Netherlands since?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, please bear with me for a moment.
6 Thank you.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I have to correct the exhibit number. I'm
9 extremely -- I apologise to the Court. The number should be corrected to
10 read as 3/302 instead of 3/301.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is that a proposal,
12 Mr. Waidyaratne?
13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes. It has been -- I have given an incorrect
14 number as 3/301. The exhibit number should be 3/302.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Krystal, what do your notes
16 say about that?
17 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct, Your Honour. It is 3/302.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. So where it
19 said "301," it should have read "302."
20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very much.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Karagic, during the time that you arrived in Omarska the
22 first day, and the time that you were beaten and you saw Mr. Prcac, and
23 that you were subsequently taken to the small garage in the administration
24 building, did you see anyone taking out a pistol and threatening the
1 A. No.
2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. That concludes my
3 examination. Thank you.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,
5 Mr. Waidyaratne.
6 Mr. Jovan Simic.
7 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may we come up in
8 front so that we can see the witness better? It's a little difficult from
9 that position.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well. I agree.
11 Mr. Karagic, could you approach the microphones, please, so that
12 we can hear you better. You will now be answering questions put to you by
13 Mr. Jovan Simic.
14 Mr. Jovan Simic, your witness.
15 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. J. Simic:
17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Karagic. I'm going to ask you a few
18 questions. Could you first tell me whether your brother testified in the
19 Sikirica, Dosen, Kolundzija case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Emir Karagic, therefore, did not testify in the Sikirica, Dosen,
22 and Kolundzija case; is that right?
23 A. Emir Karagic is not my brother.
24 Q. I apologise. Do you know whether Emir Karagic testified in that
1 A. No.
2 Q. You mean you don't know or he didn't?
3 A. I haven't seen him since the war, so I don't know.
4 Q. Now we're talking about Emir. You yourself said that you were
5 arrested. Who was arrested exactly? Can we repeat? On the day that you
6 were arrested, on the 18th of July, 1992, who else was arrested?
7 A. The other people who were arrested -- there was myself, my brother
8 Sanel, and Emir Ganic.
9 Q. You say Emir Ganic?
10 A. Yes, Emir Ganic.
11 Q. What about Granov?
12 A. That young man, later on, in the SUP, in the cell in the SUP of
13 Prijedor, we found him there later on.
14 Q. Thank you, Witness. That's what I wanted to clear up.
15 Can you tell us now how you came into contact with the
16 Prosecution, and when?
17 A. The first time was last year, over the telephone. Somebody from
18 the Tribunal called me up and asked me a few questions: whether I knew
19 Drago Prcac, things like that. And the telephone conversation lasted for
20 about five minutes last year. And then two or three weeks ago I was
21 called again and it was about the same case. They asked me some questions
22 about the same thing.
23 Q. So you didn't see anybody from the Tribunal until the day you
24 actually came to The Hague; is that right?
25 A. Yes, that's right. I didn't.
1 Q. When you arrived in The Hague, did you talk to a representative of
2 the OTP?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. What did you talk about?
5 A. It was last week, when I came here for the first time. They
6 questioned me about the case, about how I had been brought to the Omarska
7 camp, and what happened on that occasion.
8 Q. If I understand you correctly, you've been here since last week.
9 A. No. No. I live very nearby, so that ...
10 Q. Who did you talk to on the occasion?
11 A. I talked to Tariq Malik.
12 Q. Malik?
13 A. Yes, Malik.
14 Q. We know him too. Did Mr. Tariq make any notes while he talked to
16 A. The interpreter wrote down something. There was no other paper,
17 just the interpreter's.
18 Q. You were not read out anything and asked whether you agreed,
19 whether it was a statement of any kind, or anything like that?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Mr. Karagic, we have heard about 50 witnesses here, and all of
22 them say that when they were arrested and detained and taken to the
23 Omarska investigation centre, that they were beaten. You have confirmed
24 that. You said you were beaten when you arrived in Omarska.
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. Similarly, a large number of witnesses confirmed that they were
2 placed up against the wall with their legs wide apart and that they had to
3 have these three fingers up against the wall, and that's what you said
4 here too; is that right?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. So you were made to face the wall with your legs apart, with your
7 three fingers raised in a position something like this, and you were
8 beaten; is that right?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. The beating, according to the testimonies of all the statements,
11 it was not an ordinary beating. It was painful; the beatings and blows
12 were painful and repeated. It wasn't just several blows on the back, or
13 was it?
14 A. Beatings are beatings. And there weren't several blows. There
15 were more.
16 Q. That's what I'm asking you, yes. So it wasn't -- when you're at a
17 football match, for example, somebody might hit you and say, "Sit down."
18 It wasn't like that. It was a real beating. Is that what you're saying?
19 A. Yes, of course.
20 Q. Thank you, Witness. So you were beaten, and the other witnesses
21 say that they beat you with anything they had at hand, and all over; is
22 that right?
23 A. Well, when we arrived, during those first moments, they beat us
24 all over the place. They didn't aim at any particular area. But not with
25 everything that came to hand.
1 Q. Were you afraid then?
2 A. Of course I was.
3 Q. Can you tell me just how afraid? Can you determine the intensity
4 of your fear? Or let me rephrase that. Did anybody happen to tell you
5 why you had been arrested, how long you would be staying there, where you
6 were going, what you could expect when you got there, things like that, or
7 did you just think those things yourself?
8 A. Well, in the SUP at Prijedor, they told me what I could expect to
9 find, most of the things.
10 Q. What did they tell you there?
11 A. Everything. For me to be afraid. They said that I was a Green
12 Beret, that I would never go back home again, things like that, all the
13 worst kinds of things.
14 Q. So you will agree with me when I say that when you were up against
15 the wall, facing the wall, and when you were beaten, you were afraid?
16 A. Very much so.
17 Q. Were you afraid for your life at that time?
18 A. Yes, I was.
19 Q. In a situation like that, was Miki Stojnic nicknamed the Drveni,
20 the wooden one, was he there?
21 A. I don't know that person.
22 Q. Do you know anybody who was standing round about there?
23 A. No, only the policeman that brought us there, his name was Strika.
24 Q. Rade Strika, you mean, Witness?
25 A. Yes, Rade Strika, he brought us in the police van in the Black
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 Maria. I didn't know the others.
2 Q. So you don't know how many guards there actually were?
3 A. No, but I would say six to seven.
4 Q. The people that you didn't know --
5 A. No, I didn't know anybody.
6 Q. -- how were they standing? Explain that to me, please. Were they
7 standing behind you and beating you all together or would they come by one
8 by one and then leave, because the other witnesses said that they all came
9 at you at the same time and beat you. That's why I'm asking you.
10 A. Well, they couldn't have stood in front of us.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne.
12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, I don't know whether my learned
13 friend made a mistake in saying, "The other witnesses said that." There
14 were many witnesses. There would have been different beatings and they
15 would have talked of different times, so it will be misleading if
16 Mr. Simic says, "The other witnesses said that they all came one by one."
17 I don't know as to what -- to whom Mr. Simic is referring to.
18 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll withdraw the
19 question. The translation wasn't as it should have been. Let me rephrase
20 the question and clarify matters.
21 Q. Mr. Karagic, my question was the following: I made a mistake and
22 said whether they stood in front of you. They couldn't have a stood in
23 front of you because the wall was in front of you, I meant behind you.
24 Now, did these guards come at you all together? Were they all together
25 and beat you in a group? That's what I wanted to ask you.
1 A. Yes.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Simic repeat the question, please.
3 Mr. Simic, could you repeat the question.
4 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You said that you didn't -- my question was: Was Meakic there and
6 your answer to that was, "I didn't see him."
7 A. Yes, that's right. I didn't see him, and I didn't know him.
8 Q. Very well. So you didn't know him. Thank you, Witness.
9 You said that when the beatings stopped, when they stopped beating
10 you and when they started to beat Granov, you were still standing up
11 against the wall, facing the wall, and you were still afraid; is that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you turn your head perhaps?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You were just standing there and waiting, and you were afraid that
17 somebody would come and beat you again; is that right?
18 A. Granov was half a metre away from me. They were all pushing me
19 and beating him so that I was very close by, actually. And of course I
20 was afraid, yes.
21 Q. And then Drago Prcac came and took your particulars?
22 A. No, Drago Prcac came before that.
23 Q. Drago Prcac came and took your particulars and they stopped
24 beating you and took somebody else's particulars?
25 A. No. I said that he came and took my particulars, then he took
1 Granov's particulars, then my brother's particulars, and they beat us
2 throughout that time.
3 Q. And you kept facing the wall.
4 A. Except the two times when I turned round when he asked me
6 Q. I see. What was Drago wearing?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Did he have a rifle, any weapons?
9 A. No.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Did he have any weapons at all?
13 A. I didn't see any. I didn't see any weapons in his hands or on him
14 at all.
15 Q. Do you mean you didn't see or he didn't have any?
16 A. He didn't have any weapons.
17 Q. I see. He didn't have any. Thank you. Could you see where Drago
18 Prcac was moving, where he went after taking your particulars? Where did
19 he go? Where could he have gone?
20 A. I couldn't see that until they started pushing us and shoving us.
21 Q. That was at the very end, you say?
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. Tell me, please, when they beat people, there's usually a lot of
24 commotion and noise. You say -- is that true? Is that right?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. So we have a situation like this: You are standing up against the
2 wall with your arms raised. They beat you for a long time. There was
3 some noise and commotion, people shoving and moving, and can you say that
4 you knew what was happening behind your back?
5 A. No, I can't claim with any certainty what was going on behind my
6 back all the time.
7 Q. But can you say that you could hear everything going on behind
8 your back?
9 A. I could hear everything, yes. Of course everything that was going
10 on around me, all the movement and commotion, I felt all this. I felt
11 what was going on.
12 Q. Tell me, please, with respect to your departure to Manjaca on the
13 6th of August, that's when you went, isn't it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What room were you in then?
16 A. I was in the fourth pavilion or shed, if that's what you were
17 interested in, number four of that pavilion, or whatever it was called of
18 the second camp or second fence.
19 Q. I'm not talking about Manjaca. I'm talking about Omarska. You
20 didn't understand me.
21 A. On the 6th of August, you asked about Manjaca.
22 Q. Yes, I apologise. You were transferred to Manjaca. Could you
23 tell me where you were on that day, on the 6th of August when you were
24 called out to be transferred to Manjaca?
25 A. I was in what was called Muja's room in the administration
2 Q. You mean the room by the garage. And who called you out?
3 A. There were lists of people, several of them. One would come and
4 call out the name from one list and then another one would call out
5 another --
6 Q. Do you know Mesan Omer?
7 A. No.
8 Q. [redacted]
9 A. Yes, I know him by sight.
10 Q. Do you know Azedin Oklopcic?
11 A. No, not by his name. I don't know the name. It doesn't ring a
13 Q. One more question: Were you hit on the head? Were you beat --
14 hit on the head when you were beaten?
15 A. Yes. Well ...
16 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness. We have no
17 further questions, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, do you have any
19 further questions.
20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Very briefly, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead.
22 Re-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:
23 Q. Witness, could you kindly tell the Court the names of your two
24 brothers, please?
25 A. Amel Karagic and Sanel Karagic.
1 Q. Is it Amel?
2 A. Amel, yes.
3 Q. He is not alive. He passed away in 1995; is that correct?
4 A. In 1996.
5 Q. Now, you were asked by learned counsel about the beating. Just to
6 clarify one point, when you were beaten on your arrival, did the guards
7 who beat you use any objects or instruments?
8 A. No.
9 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. That's it.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,
11 Mr. Waidyaratne.
12 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.
13 Questioned by the Court:
14 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Karagic, good afternoon.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 JUDGE RIAD: I'll just have one question or perhaps two. You
17 mentioned that Mr. Prcac was a colleague and a friend of your father.
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 JUDGE RIAD: And did he ever visit your family? Were you in
20 any -- there was some kind of relationship?
21 A. Yes. He would come to the workshop to see my father. I don't
22 know whether he ever came to our house. Usually he would stop by in the
23 workshop and talk to my father.
24 JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you told him your name, your father's name,
25 he recognised you? Did he show any sign of recognition or ...
1 A. No.
2 JUDGE RIAD: He did not make any effort to protect you?
3 A. No. At that moment, no.
4 JUDGE RIAD: At that moment or any other moment?
5 A. At the end, when he told the guards to stop, that there would be
6 time for that later on, otherwise he didn't show that he recognised us by
7 any gesture.
8 JUDGE RIAD: He told the guards to stop concerning you or
9 concerning the whole group?
10 A. At that moment, they were just beating Granov.
11 JUDGE RIAD: Did he ask them to stop beating Granov?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE RIAD: And they obeyed him?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE RIAD: You also said that you never saw anyone getting out a
16 pistol and threatening the guards. I suppose that question was concerning
17 the time when you were coming out of the bus and lining up, but was
18 there -- did anybody tell you about anything which happened after you
19 left, that somebody stopped the guards from beating?
20 A. No; that is to say, I didn't understand your question.
21 JUDGE RIAD: My question is -- all right. How long did you stay
22 with your face on the wall before going in?
23 A. Ten to 15 minutes.
24 JUDGE RIAD: And when was the beating at its peak, when they were
25 coming down or when you were standing?
1 A. When we were going out and when we -- well, I can't really say
2 when they were beating more and less, but when we were up against the wall
3 and when we were going out we were beaten.
4 JUDGE RIAD: And during all this period, nobody interfered to stop
5 except when this incident when Mr. Prcac asked them not to beat Granov.
6 That's the only incident you remember?
7 A. That's right, yes.
8 JUDGE RIAD: And after you went in, did the others remain outside
9 still being beaten?
10 A. There were just the three of us so that we were taken in at the
11 same time.
12 JUDGE RIAD: There was nobody else? There was no other group?
13 A. The three of us. Us three. Nobody else. There was another group
14 of people on the other side. They were just called out. I heard the
15 names being read out. I heard them reading the roll-call, the names and
16 the surnames. I don't know why.
17 JUDGE RIAD: They arrived with you too?
18 A. No. No. No. Just the three of us arrived.
19 JUDGE RIAD: So you can only speak about the time when you
20 arrived. When you said that you saw no one getting out a pistol and
21 threatening the guards, you are speaking of just the time when you
22 arrived, the three of you?
23 A. I don't understand again.
24 JUDGE RIAD: All right. Thank you very much.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad
2 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.
3 JUDGE WALD: Thank you. Now, did I understand your testimony
4 correctly that when Mr. Prcac came and started asking questions about who
5 you were, that the guards were still beating you at that time? When he
6 first came to you and asked you who you were, et cetera, the guards were
7 still beating you then?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE WALD: And did the guards continue to beat you while he was
10 asking you those questions?
11 A. When he asked me the first question, I turned round.
12 JUDGE WALD: Right.
13 A. They beat me and told me not to turn round and continued beating
15 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So could you estimate the amount of time
16 between the time that Mr. Prcac first arrived on the scene, that you first
17 knew that he was on the scene, and the time when he finally said, when
18 they were beating the other person, "Stop. No more of that. Time for
19 that later"? In other words, could you roughly estimate between the time
20 you first knew he was there and the time that he said, "Stop. No more of
22 A. Perhaps ten minutes. Not long.
23 JUDGE WALD: Okay. And then the only other question I have is:
24 You talked at night, when you were in the garage and two people arrived
25 and asked for the new ones, and then one of them said, "We know him.
1 Never mind. I know them. Never mind." Were you able to recognise the
2 voices of any of those persons that came into the garage at night?
3 A. No.
4 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge
7 Witness Karagic, we have no more questions to ask you. We thank
8 you very much for having come. And I'm going to ask the usher to escort
9 you out of the courtroom. Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.
12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I tender Exhibit number 3/302 into evidence.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic.
14 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We have no objections, Your
16 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, would you like
18 to communicate something?
19 MS. SOMERS: I think, before the lunch pause, if it might be of
20 assistance to the Chamber: Pending the earlier discussion, the decision
21 date from the Blaskic decision is 27 January 1997. It is a decision on
22 the production of discovery materials. I do have a copy. If I may be of
23 any assistance in providing it, I'd be happy to do that. And I call the
24 Chamber's attention to --
25 JUDGE WALD: Do you have the page -- oh, okay. That's what I was
1 going to ask you, page or paragraph.
2 MS. SOMERS: The paragraphs upon which the Prosecution has at all
3 times relied is paragraphs 38 to 40, in principle, but I think the
4 discussion just before and after would be of assistance, and I'm happy to
5 make copies if it will help you.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. Thank you.
7 We are going to adjourn for luncheon, and the adjournment will be 50
8 minutes, according to our traditions.
9 --- Recess taken at 1.05 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 2.00 p.m.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
12 Well, Madam Somers -- oh, Mr. Saxon, I apologise.
13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the next witness will be Mr. Mirsad
14 Kugic. The Prosecution had previously requested protective measures on
15 his behalf, but the witness has told the Office of the Prosecution that he
16 does not require these measures so he will be testifying in public session
17 under his real name.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The reasons why we -- why we
19 approve the protection measures, are these reasons not there any more?
20 Why do we have such a dramatic change, Mr. Saxon? If you know, please
21 tell us.
22 MR. SAXON: I asked the witness why he had changed his mind.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Saxon.
24 MR. SAXON: All I can tell you, Your Honour, I don't want to speak
25 for the witness, and I asked him, "Why have you changed your mind?" He
1 says, "Everyone knows me. I want to testify in public." That's what he
2 told me, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right. Very well then.
4 Then let us bring the witness into the courtroom and let us make sure that
5 the transcript reflects what has just been said, especially since this now
6 annuls the previous decision made by this Trial Chamber concerning the
7 protective measures.
8 Will the usher please bring in the witness.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Kugic, can
11 you hear me?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will please first read the
14 solemn declaration given to you by the usher.
15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
16 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: MIRSAD KUGIC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. I thank you
20 for coming here to testify. You will first of all answer questions put to
21 you by Mr. Saxon who is standing to your right. Have you adjusted your
22 earphones? All right.
23 Mr. Saxon, you may proceed.
24 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Examined by Mr. Saxon:
1 Q. Sir, will you tell us your name, please.
2 A. My name is Mirsad Kugic.
3 Q. What is your ethnicity?
4 A. I am a Muslim --
5 Q. And your place of birth?
6 A. -- from Bosnia-Herzegovina. I was born in Prijedor.
7 Q. Your date of birth?
8 A. 17th May 1951.
9 Q. Are you married?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Have any children?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How many?
14 A. I didn't understand the question.
15 Q. How many children do you have?
16 A. Two sons.
17 Q. Where were you living up until 1992?
18 A. In Prijedor.
19 Q. What kind of work did you do?
20 A. I had a private business.
21 Q. Can you explain what kind of business you had?
22 A. I was a butcher so I was -- I had a shop, a butcher shop, and I
23 also had a restaurant or a cafe.
24 Q. Did you also own a slaughterhouse?
25 A. Yes, with a processing plant.
1 Q. Before the war began in 1992, would you say that you were a rich
2 man, poor man, or average, for Prijedor?
3 A. I was a wealthy man in Prijedor.
4 Q. Were you known in Prijedor as a wealthy man and as a successful
6 A. I was the wealthiest and the most successful one.
7 Q. Did you employ a lot of people?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. About how many?
10 A. Some 30 people.
11 Q. Can you describe -- up until the time that the war began, how much
12 property did you own?
13 A. Yes, I can, but I would need some time for that.
14 Q. Well, in general, describe the kinds of property that you owned.
15 A. Well, I owned a house, and in the yard I had a workshop for
16 sausages. I also had a slaughterhouse with a sausage workshop, a farm,
17 and all of the facilities going with it. I had three butcher shops. Two
18 were operating and a third one was about to start operating. I also had
19 two grill cafes. I also had commercial space in the JNA Street. It
20 measured 210 square metres. It was on three storeys. I had a newly
21 acquired restaurant by an electrical company, and I also built a butcher
22 shop there. It was about to be -- the renovation was about to be
24 Q. All right. And did you --
25 A. And I also had a restaurant.
1 Q. Did you own any vehicles?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What kind of vehicles did you own?
4 A. I had vehicles that I needed for my job. I had a truck to
5 transport cattle. I had a freezer truck for meat. I also had my own
6 private vehicles.
7 Q. Did you also have cash, money in the bank?
8 A. Yes. I had all that.
9 Q. Mr. Kugic, before the war began in 1992, did you know a man named
10 Dragoljub Prcac?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. How did you know Mr. Prcac?
13 A. Well, I knew him. He was a member of the police, and just before
14 the outbreak of the war he was a retired man.
15 Q. And do you know where in Prijedor Mr. Prcac had an apartment?
16 A. Yes, certainly I knew. In the same neighbourhood where I owned a
17 butcher shop.
18 Q. And when, if ever, would you see Mr. Prcac from time to time?
19 A. Well, I would see him daily, when I was in Prijedor.
20 Q. Mr. Kugic, sometime during the last part of June of 1992, were you
21 detained in the Omarska camp?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who brought you to the Omarska camp?
24 A. I was brought there by a former policeman, Vlado Kovacevic, and
25 another policeman, Cvijic Ranko.
1 Q. Is it possible that Mr. Kovacevic's first name is actually Ranko,
2 not Vlado?
3 A. Kovacevic. He was called Bato. His nickname was Bato.
4 Q. When Mr. Kovacevic and Mr. Cvijic brought you to the Omarska camp,
5 what, if anything, did they say about you being a wealthy person?
6 A. Well, they -- when they came to fetch me, to take me over there,
7 they said that that was the very reason why I was being taken there.
8 Q. What part of the Omarska camp were you confined in?
9 A. I was confined in the "glass house", owing to the two of them.
10 Q. Was that area known as the "glass house" located on the ground
11 floor of the restaurant building?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. After you were confined in the Omarska camp, were you ever called
14 out of the "glass house" by Dragoljub Prcac?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How many times did Mr. Prcac call you out of the "glass house"?
17 A. Twice.
18 Q. How soon after your arrival in the Omarska camp did Mr. Prcac call
19 you out for the first time?
20 A. Three to four days after.
21 Q. All right. On that occasion, did Mr. Prcac call you out during
22 the day or during the evening?
23 A. It was in the evening.
24 Q. About what time was it?
25 A. 10.00 or 11.00, somewhere around that time. I didn't have a
2 Q. When Mr. Prcac came to the "glass house" to call you out, what did
3 he say?
4 A. He came to the door and he called out my name and said, "Come
5 out," and that was all.
6 Q. Where did Mr. Prcac take you?
7 A. He took me to a room behind the "glass house". It was practically
8 behind the wall. As you go through the door, behind the "glass house".
9 MR. SAXON: I'm wondering if I could ask the assistance of the
10 registrar and of the usher, please, if just for a moment we could place
11 Exhibit 3/77A on the ELMO, please.
12 Q. Mr. Kugic, can you take a look at the plan, Exhibit 3/77A, that is
13 a floor plan of the ground floor of the administration building. Can you
14 pick up the pointer that's next to you and just show the Judges and
15 everyone elsewhere Mr. -- approximately where Mr. Prcac took you that
17 A. The door was here. He came to the door and this is where we came
18 out and went through this tunnel, and then we went to this area here where
19 there was an office and this -- on the side, there was a door. And this
20 is in this area marked with A12.
21 Q. So approximately where it says A12, that's where he took you; is
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. SAXON: That exhibit can be removed now, please.
25 Q. When you got to that room, what did Mr. Prcac say to you, if
2 A. He told me that I was a well-known citizen in Prijedor, that I had
3 money, that I was a businessman, and that it was a pity for me to stay
4 there, and if I was to give money, I would perhaps be able to come out of
6 Q. When you say "come out of there," come out of where?
7 A. From Omarska and from Prijedor with my family.
8 Q. How did you respond to that?
9 A. I said that I did not have any money. I had property, but not
10 money because I had spent my money.
11 Q. And what response, if any, did Mr. Prcac make to that?
12 A. He said, "How come you don't have any money? You're such a
13 wealthy person. How can you be without money?"
14 Q. And how did you respond to that question?
15 A. "I am wealthy. I have a lot of property, but I don't have cash."
16 Q. And what response, if any, did Mr. Prcac make to that?
17 A. He said, "How come that you don't have any money?" I responded by
18 saying, "I don't have any money because I purchased a restaurant in
19 Prijedor a year ago and this is where all my money went." And in addition
20 to that, I had a company and my money was invested there.
21 Q. And what, if anything, did Mr. Prcac say in response to that?
22 A. He said, "Well, then, it will be difficult for you to leave this
24 Q. Did he say anything else?
25 A. "It will be difficult for you to leave this place and you will
1 have the same fate as the others."
2 Q. And did that make you feel afraid?
3 A. Well, naturally, I certainly felt afraid. I thought I was an
4 ant. He -- I knew that people were being killed there, a lot of people.
5 Q. What was going through your mind during this discussion with
6 Mr. Prcac?
7 A. I was thinking about staying alive and keeping my family alive.
8 Q. What, if anything, was going through your mind about what a
9 wealthy person could or should do in Omarska?
10 A. I was reasoning along these lines: If I give them money, they
11 will kill me. If I don't give them money, they will kill me also.
12 Q. So at some point during this conversation, did you become
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you begin to cry?
16 A. I cried.
17 Q. And what happened after that?
18 A. Nothing. He gave me a drink. I had a cognac.
19 Q. How long did this conversation with Mr. Prcac go on that first
21 A. Well, it lasted until the morning.
22 Q. And how did this conversation with Mr. Prcac end?
23 A. He told me, "Well, just leave. If you don't have any money, just
24 go, and whatever happens to you will happen."
25 Q. And did Mr. Prcac take you back to the "glass house"?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Approximately what time was it when you got back to the "glass
4 A. Well, it was somewhere between 5.00 and 6.00 in the morning,
5 around that time.
6 Q. Approximately when was the second occasion when Mr. Prcac called
7 you out of the "glass house"?
8 A. It was about seven days later, somewhere around that time, seven
9 or eight days later.
10 Q. What did Mr. Prcac say when he called you out of the "glass house"
11 on the second occasion?
12 A. He told me, "Do you have money?"
13 Q. Let's go a little bit slower, please. Did Mr. Prcac come to the
14 "glass house" to call you out?
15 A. It was -- he was at the door of the "glass house".
16 Q. What, if anything, did Mr. Prcac say when he was at the door of
17 the "glass house"?
18 A. He said, "Kugic, come with me."
19 Q. On that second occasion, where did Mr. Prcac take you?
20 A. To the same office.
21 Q. And when you went into that same office, what, if anything, did
22 Mr. Prcac say to you?
23 A. He said to me, "You're saying that you don't have any money, and I
24 heard that you are giving money to some guards."
25 Q. And was that true? Had you given money to some guards at
1 Omarska? Yes or no.
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. Why did you do that?
4 A. I gave them money so that they wouldn't beat me.
5 Q. Where did you get this money?
6 A. Money was brought to me by my friends, Serbs.
7 Q. Were these Serb friends who worked at Omarska camp?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, how did you respond to Mr. Prcac when he said that to you?
10 A. I told him, "Well, it is true. I did give some money to some
11 guards, but I didn't give a lot of money because I don't have a lot of
13 Q. Did you ask Mr. Prcac, for instance, how much he wanted?
14 A. I didn't ask him that but he told me himself that that should be
15 quite a substantial sum of money.
16 Q. Okay. And how did you respond?
17 A. I said that I didn't have a lot of money. I told him that he
18 could have any piece of my property, that I would transfer the ownership
19 of any piece of my property to him.
20 Q. And how did Mr. Prcac respond when you told him that?
21 A. He said, "If you don't have any money, then I won't be able to
22 help you. Just go back, and whatever happens to the others will happen to
23 you as well."
24 Q. About how long did this conversation last?
25 A. This second conversation was shorter, between an hour and a half
1 and two hours, something like that.
2 Q. And eventually did Mr. Prcac take you back to the "glass house"?
3 A. Yes, and nobody beat me.
4 Q. Did you ever have a discussion with Mr. Prcac about your money
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you recall, in the summer of 1993, giving a statement to an
8 organisation in Zagreb about your experiences in Omarska?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you describe the conditions in which you gave that statement
11 in 1993?
12 A. That was in 1993. It was a very plain office, and people who had
13 been in the camps were there in order to gather material and send it into
14 the world in order to stop or prevent this crime and to provoke reaction.
15 It was a very small office and there were about a hundred people in the
16 hallways. A lot of people came there because they wanted to give a
17 statement and then go and live abroad, go and live somewhere else.
18 Q. And in the statement that you gave, did you also mention this
19 discussion that you had had with Mr. Prcac when you were in the Omarska
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And have you recently had the opportunity to reread your statement
23 that you gave in 1993?
24 A. Well, how could I have an opportunity to do that? That was a
25 statement that I gave a long time ago.
1 Q. In the Office of the Prosecutor, have you had the opportunity
2 recently to look at the statement that you gave in 1993 -- yesterday?
3 A. No, I didn't.
4 Q. I will move on. Did you have time to read the statement before
5 you signed it in 1993? Were you given an opportunity to look it over
6 before you signed it?
7 A. No. I simply signed it and then went on.
8 Q. Did anybody take the time to read the statement to you before you
9 signed it?
10 A. No. There was no time for that. I simply did it and I left
12 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
14 Mr. Kugic, now you will be cross-examined by the counsel for the
16 I see that Mr. Masic will be conducting the cross-examination.
17 Mr. Masic, your witness.
18 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Masic:
20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kugic. My name is Dusan Masic. I'm a lawyer
21 from Belgrade, and together with Mr. Jovan Simic, I represent the accused
22 Mr. Prcac in this case.
23 Do you have a nickname and did you have a nickname when you lived
24 in Prijedor?
25 A. Yes.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 Q. What was your nickname?
2 A. Coro.
3 Q. Do you speak English?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you understand English?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you have a criminal record, any prior convictions?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Never?
10 A. Minor misdemeanour or traffic offences, that's all.
11 Q. But were you ever subject to criminal proceedings?
12 A. No, never.
13 Q. I will use now the methods that are commonly used by my learned
14 colleagues from the Prosecution. A moment ago, Witness, you made a solemn
15 declaration that you would speak the truth. Are you now telling the
17 A. Yes, I am.
18 Q. Mr. Kugic, are you Mirsad Kugic, son of Dzafer and Hasna, whose
19 maiden name was Alisic?
20 A. Yes. My name is Mirsad Kugic, son of Dzafer but not Hasna.
21 Q. What is your mother's name?
22 A. Emina.
23 Q. Is her maiden name Alisic?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. Were you born on the 17th of May, 1951?
1 A. I have already told you so.
2 Q. Were you convicted by the municipal court in Prijedor for criminal
3 offence of bodily harm, of inflicting serious bodily harm?
4 A. No, never.
5 Q. On the 20th of August, 1974, were you convicted of a criminal
6 offence of serious bodily harm? Let me remind you. Were you convicted in
7 those proceedings for having beaten up Borislav Vojisavljevo at the
8 football stadium in Prijedor? Apparently you knocked out his teeth,
9 whereby you committed a criminal offence of inflicting serious bodily
10 harm. Yes or no?
11 A. Who, me?
12 Q. Yes, you, Witness.
13 A. Criminal offence?
14 Q. Yes. Did you ever have to respond -- answer those charges before
15 a criminal court?
16 A. That was not a criminal offence.
17 Q. Did you make any additional statements in addition to the one that
18 we mentioned, for example, in Zagreb, in the month of June, 1993?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Who else did you give a statement to?
21 A. I gave a statement in Germany.
22 Q. When did you establish contact with the Prosecutor's office in The
24 A. I was -- they could contact me -- they contacted me when they
25 needed me.
1 Q. When was the first time that you established contact with the OTP
2 in The Hague?
3 A. Well, I maintained that contact throughout the time.
4 Q. But I would like to know when it was -- when did you first
5 establish contact with the Prosecution in The Hague?
6 A. You see, sir, I'm not a computer. I cannot memorise dates.
7 Q. Could you tell us approximately in what year it was?
8 A. Whenever they wanted me to give a statement, I would give them a
10 Q. Does it mean that on several occasions -- my apologies for the
11 speed. Does it mean that you had given a number of statements to the
12 Office of the Prosecutor?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Did you sign those statements?
15 A. No, I didn't.
16 Q. Could you tell us at least the year when you first established
17 contact with the Office of the Prosecutor in The Hague?
18 A. Every year, throughout those years upon my departure from
20 Q. Does it mean that as early as 1993 you were in contact with the
21 OTP in The Hague?
22 A. No, not in 1993.
23 Q. Was it in 1994, then?
24 A. No. It was in '90 -- no, I'm sorry. I can't remember.
25 Q. When you gave those statements to the OTP, did you ever mention
1 Dragoljub Prcac?
2 A. Where?
3 Q. I'm referring to all of the statements that you gave to the Office
4 of the Prosecutor. Did you at any point in time mention Dragoljub Prcac?
5 A. I'm sorry. I don't understand your question.
6 Q. I will rephrase my question. In the statements that you gave to
7 the Office of the Prosecutor in The Hague, did you ever mention Dragoljub
9 A. Whenever they wanted me to mention his name, I would mention his
11 Q. Does it mean that they were -- they asked you to mention Dragoljub
12 Prcac in a direct manner?
13 A. No. I made a statement, concerning Dragoljub Prcac when I left
14 the camp, in Zagreb.
15 Q. I would like to know whether you gave the same statement to that
16 effect, that is concerning Dragoljub Prcac, to the OTP?
17 A. No, I didn't. They never asked me that.
18 Q. Was your leaving Zagreb conditioned by your giving a statement?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you remember the date or rather the day when you were brought
21 to the Omarska camp?
22 A. You mean the day or the date? Of course I don't remember the
23 date. How would I?
24 Q. Would you agree with me that in 1993, you could remember the dates
25 and the events easily, that your memory was better in those days?
1 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.
2 Q. Is it true, Witness, that in 1993, you had a fresher memory and
3 was able to remember the date when you were brought to the camp?
4 A. It's possible. I don't know. You know how it was in Prijedor.
5 We didn't pay attention to the dates. There was so many dead people all
7 Q. In your statement that you made to the centre for collection of
8 information in Zagreb on page 5, you stated that you were brought on the
9 22nd of June to the Omarska camp at about 4.00 p.m.; is that correct -- at
10 about 6.00 p.m.; is that correct?
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon.
12 MR. SAXON: My objection is simply that since we are now on
13 cross-examination, and I am making an assumption that Mr. Masic is
14 attempting to impeach the credibility of the witness, that we follow our
15 standard procedure and at least show the witness a copy of his statement
16 in the language that he can read so at least he can follow along with the
17 sections that Mr. Masic is reading, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Masic.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Masic, microphone, please.
20 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour. I accept
21 the objection by the Prosecutor. However, in view of our time
22 constraints, I thought that we would be able to get an answer even without
23 this. But I will now kindly ask the assistance of the usher to give the
24 witness this piece of paper so that he can follow my question.
25 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, may I make one more comment, please?
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.
2 MR. SAXON: It's simply that it's my understanding that this
3 witness has some trouble reading. He does not have the best eyesight in
4 the world. So I would simply ask that my learned colleague have a little
5 bit of patience with him as he is showing him this document because
6 sometimes he can take a little bit of time to -- as he's reading. Thank
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, do you have the
9 document in your hands?
10 MR. SAXON: I have a copy of it with me, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Masic, please
13 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Kugic, I should like to ask you to turn to page 5 of this
15 document that is in front of you. And at the bottom of the page, the
16 penultimate paragraph, line 6 from the bottom, you state as follows, "I
17 was taken to the camp. One could hear screams from the other side of the
18 garage. They were beating people. It was about 6.00 in the afternoon on
19 the 22nd of June 1992." Is that correct?
20 A. At that time, yes, I was taken there in the latter half of June.
21 Whether it was on the 22nd of June or some other date, I don't know. I'm
22 not certain as to the exact date.
23 Q. Mr. Kugic, did you tell the truth to the investigators on that
25 A. Yes, I did, as I'm telling it now.
1 Q. I'm sorry to trouble you but would you turn to page 7, please. On
2 page 7, before the last paragraph, there is a sentence in which you
3 claimed, and I will read you the sentence, "That night, they killed the
4 people from Rizvanovici. There must have been over 1.000 people." Have
5 you found that portion of the text?
6 A. Yes, I have.
7 Q. Did you state that?
8 A. Yes, I did. I said that they had killed them but I didn't count.
9 Q. Mr. Kugic, we have heard 47 witnesses in this case. Are you
10 certain, are you sure that there have been mass executions in Omarska?
11 A. I am perfectly sure about that. Everybody who was in the "glass
12 house" could see it. In the second half of the month of June, they could
13 see what was done to those people. The next day, they brought a truckload
14 of dead bodies, they took away a truckload of dead bodies from that spot.
15 Q. Could you tell us who else, in addition to you, was in the "glass
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.
18 MR. SAXON: I believe there's been a translation error.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
20 MR. SAXON: I believe there has been a translation error. So just
21 to clarify the record, the English translation has the witness saying,
22 "Everybody who was in the 'glass house' could see it in the second half
23 of the month of June," but we believe that the witness said in the second
24 half of the month of July. Perhaps the question could be put to the
25 witness again so that could be cleared up.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon, but you could
2 have brought it up during your redirect examination. This way we keep
3 interrupting the examination. You always have the opportunity to
4 elucidate the matter during your re-examination.
5 Mr. Masic, please continue.
6 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Is it your testimony, Witness, that there have been mass
8 executions in Omarska?
9 A. Yes. That is my testimony, and I was able to see it and you,
10 yourself, are aware of that fact.
11 Q. Do you know Abdulah Brkic?
12 A. Yes, I do. He used to work in my company.
13 Q. Was he therefore one of your employees?
14 A. Yes, he was. He was a driver.
15 Q. In this statement --
16 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] If you will please bear with me for a
17 second, Your Honours.
18 Q. In that statement you declared that Dragan Radakovic had
19 questioned your driver, Abdulah Brkic, and that during that interrogation
20 he beat him up and that he was saved from a certain death by an
21 investigator from Banja Luka; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. Mr. Karagic, if I told you that your driver, Abdulah -- I'm sorry,
24 Mr. Kugic, Abdulah Brkic appeared before this Tribunal and testified that
25 he was a taxi driver, not that he was an employee in your company, and
1 that he stated that he was never beaten during interrogations, and
2 particularly not by Radakovic.
3 A. Are you trying to tell me now --
4 Q. Witness, I am asking questions. Would you please answer the
5 question? How do you comment on the fact that your, as you say, driver
6 appeared before this Tribunal and testified that he was not a driver but a
7 taxi driver and that he was not beaten, as you claimed he was, in the
8 statement that you gave in Croatia?
9 A. My -- he was my driver. There are documents to that effect. And
10 he knows very well who beat him up. You're trying to turn Omarska into a
12 Q. Witness, I'm not trying to make allegations. I'm merely asking
13 questions of you. Mr. Abdulah Brkic testified before this Tribunal on
14 page 4490, 4491, and 4492 expressly stated that during the interrogation
15 he had not been beaten by anyone. Why would he state that, and why are
16 you claiming something which is actually to the contrary?
17 A. That is what he told me.
18 Q. In his testimony, Mr. Abdulah Brkic stated that he was given some
19 Kent cigarettes that day, they had given him some water to drink, and that
20 nobody had beat him.
21 A. I didn't hear that from him.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. One more question. Mr. Abdulah Brkic, did he have any reasons not
25 to tell the truth before this Tribunal?
1 A. I don't know that. I didn't read that material.
2 Q. Mr. Kugic, in your statement that you gave in Croatia on page 11,
3 did you state that you were the 14.000th prisoner in the camp?
4 A. I think it's a typo. I think it's a mistake.
5 Q. Were you ever in the area which was referred to as a garage or the
6 hangar building where the dampers were? Were you ever there?
7 A. Yes, I was.
8 Q. What did you do there?
9 A. I was brought there in the last bus.
10 Q. Are you trying to say that it was Drago Prcac who took you there?
11 A. Yes, together with another soldier.
12 Q. Are you telling us that on that day when you were leaving for
13 Manjaca, Drago Prcac called out your names in the hangar?
14 A. Yes, and I was kept in the restaurant together with five women.
15 Q. On page 10 of the statement that I have just mentioned --
16 A. He is well aware of that.
17 Q. Witness, please. Just a second. On page 10 of the said statement
18 in paragraph 4, you stated that, "Atrocities had been committed in the
19 hangar. People were made to drink mortar oil, their limbs were cut off,
20 their testicles, and people were forced to eat live pigeons." Is that
21 correct? Is that what you stated?
22 A. That is what I heard from people when we met in Zagreb.
23 Q. But did you, sir, actually see it?
24 A. No, I didn't, because I was not in the hangar. But I saw people
25 as I was leaving, and I didn't know how many people were left behind
1 because they couldn't walk.
2 Q. Did you actually see people whose testicles were cut off?
3 A. Me? I was not in the hangar.
4 Q. Do you know any man whose testicles were cut off?
5 A. That's what you heard, perhaps, and saw, sir.
6 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could you please try to
7 explain to the witness that I'm merely asking him about his statement, the
8 one that he made to the investigators in Zagreb. I'm certainly not in a
9 position to know what was happening in Omarska, because I was not there.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Masic, please proceed and
11 continue with your questions. The Chamber is observing the demeanour of
12 the witness and it is mindful of that, so please continue.
13 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Kugic, if we look at page 9 of the statement that you gave to
15 the investigators in Zagreb, we see that in the fourth paragraph from the
16 bottom, you gave a description of an incident which, according to you, was
17 something that everybody was watching and could see. I am going to read
18 you the relevant passage.
19 A. Please do.
20 Q. "All of us could see that. We could see the women. During the
21 day they were in the restaurant. During the night they were taken
22 upstairs to the offices. They were mistreated. In particular,
23 Medunjanin, the little Erna, the sister of Huso Hadzic, who had an x-ray
24 machine in Prijedor."
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please be asked to slow down.
1 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. And then we have three dots here, because they probably didn't
3 want to record your exact words.
4 MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon.
6 MR. SAXON: [Previous translation continues] ... comment on what
7 the persons who took this statement may or may not have wanted to do is
8 inappropriate and should be stricken from the record. Mr. Masic was not
9 there when this witness gave this statement, and he shouldn't be making
10 comments as to what any of those persons who took this statement were
11 thinking or what their motives may have been at the time.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Masic.
13 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I accept the objection, Your Honour.
14 However, it is true that the sentence was never finished and that there
15 are three dots instead of the end of the sentence. But it can be seen
16 clearly what it meant within the context.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but we have to read it as
18 three dots. We do not have to have an interpretation for those three
19 dots. Will you please continue with your question.
20 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. "He was crying. He didn't want to, so he was beaten up.
22 Everybody was watching. That happened during the day. The women were in
23 the restaurant during the day trying to wash away the blood of those who
24 had been killed. The president of the executive council was also there,
25 and that young girl had already been raped. I don't know how many times
1 and I don't know by whom. There were many good-looking women amongst
2 them. He was crying, 'Don't do it to me.' He was eventually killed. But
3 it was the mistreatment and the humiliation of the people that was the
4 hardest part for me."
5 MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.
7 MR. SAXON: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Masic has a
8 right to test the evidence, but he is reading so quickly that I believe
9 the interpreters cannot keep up with him, so there are words and phrases
10 that I'm seeing in my English version that are not coming out now in the
11 record. So if I could simply ask Mr. Masic to go a little bit more
12 slowly. I know this is his first language, but interpretation does take a
13 little bit of time.
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have not been provided with the
15 statement, so we actually don't know what the English translation is.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're quite right, Mr. Saxon.
17 I myself cannot follow because I don't have the document. However, we
18 could always put the document on the ELMO, or perhaps a passage of the
19 document that is intended to be used. Because we need all these relevant
20 parts of the statement to be entered into the record, otherwise it
21 wouldn't be the truth and the whole truth.
22 Mr. Masic, do you know whether everything that you have just read
23 out is actually on the record or not?
24 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] My colleague just told me that that
25 was not the case. I really apologise. I was probably very fast. My
1 apologies to the Chamber.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, I see you on your
4 MR. SAXON: Just perhaps if I could assist. Mr. Masic read a
5 sentence: "They killed him." This is at the bottom of page 9 of the
6 English version. But then there are the words "beat him with batons," but
7 those words were not interpreted. So perhaps if Mr. Masic could begin
8 there, we could then move on from there.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think it would be better to
10 repeat the quotation so that things are made clear, otherwise we will just
11 be playing games with allegations. Mr. Masic has to conduct his
12 cross-examination, and the Prosecutor will be given the opportunity to
13 re-examine the witness. But let us continue now. Let us try to finish
14 this testimony.
15 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will read
16 slowly, page 9:
17 "We could see everything from there. We watched the women there.
18 During the day they were in the restaurant and during the night they were
19 taken upstairs to where the offices were. They were mistreated,
20 especially Mrs. Medunjanin; the little Erna Omera, Huso Hadzic's sister;
21 Huso Hadzic, who had a sonogram machine in Prijedor; Hajra as well;
22 Mehmedalija Sarajlic, an elderly man, who used to work in the mine. He
23 was stripped naked and made to ..." And then we have the three dots.
24 "And he cried. He didn't want to, so they beat him. Everybody was
25 watching. It happened during the day. During the day the women were in
1 the restaurant washing the blood, bloodstains of those who had been
2 killed. The president of the executive council was there as well for the
3 little girl who had already been raped, I don't know how many times. They
4 all did. There were some good-looking women amongst them. He was crying,
5 'Please don't make me do it.' They killed him. They beat him with
7 Q. Mr. Kugic, did you state that to the investigators in Zagreb?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Did you actually see this incident?
10 A. Yes, I did. If this is not truth, please find a living soul to
11 tell you about it.
12 Q. How do you explain the fact that 46 witnesses who testified before
13 this Tribunal, out of whom many were in the "glass house" like yourself,
14 did not see this incident and never mentioned this incident before this
16 A. Maybe they didn't have the courage.
17 MR. SAXON: Objection.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.
19 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I realise again that Mr. Masic has the
20 right to test the evidence of this witness, but if he's going to use prior
21 testimony of other witnesses who have already testified here in this
22 trial, then he needs to summarise their testimony clearly, and the
23 statement that 46 witnesses came in here and never mentioned this incident
24 is simply not true. The killing of Mr. Sarajlic - and I'm sorry if I'm
25 not pronouncing his name - was mentioned by a number of Prosecution
1 witnesses. So I'm simply -- my point is simply that if the witness is
2 going to be impeached by using the prior testimony of witnesses, then that
3 testimony needs to be summarised accurately, to be fair to this witness
4 and to be fair to the record. Thank you.
5 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a second, please. Yes,
7 Mr. Masic. Let us hear your response.
8 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is true that the
9 witnesses mentioned the killing of Mehmedalija Sarajlic; however, nobody
10 described that event in the same terms as this witness did in the
11 statement that he had given.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Masic, I see that on page
13 107 -- I will read the transcript in English: [In English] "This
14 incident." [Interpretation] What incident are you talking about? If you
15 said that all of the witnesses who testified before this Tribunal stated
16 this or that, I don't think that it is quite correct, because this event
17 was mentioned by certain witnesses. You have to be clear in your
18 questions, Mr. Masic, and concise, of course. I don't know if it is
19 really necessary to indicate what witnesses have told us in general terms
20 or to specify exactly what it was that they said. Would you please
21 rephrase your question. And in my opinion, it is not correct, after
22 having read about a series of events to the witness, to ask him, "Did you
23 actually see the event, the incident?" and we still don't know what
24 incident you're talking about. We are here faced with a game which is
25 going on between the Prosecution and the Defence, and our role here is to
1 observe the proceedings.
2 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise -- I apologise, but then
3 let me ask a direct question.
4 Q. Did you see the rape or the attempted rape, or did you see how
5 Mr. Sarajlic was forced to have sexual intercourse with Hajra?
6 A. Yes, I did. He was stripped naked and they beat him until he
7 died. And that girl was also stripped naked, and everybody in the "glass
8 house" saw that. And this is the truth. You can ask Mile Mandic. He's a
9 Serb and he was there with us.
10 Q. Are you claiming that Hajra was staying with other women prior to
11 that incident?
12 A. She was brought to the camp with a young man.
13 Q. Can you tell me, was she staying, was she housed with all other
14 women in the restaurant?
15 A. She was in the hangar for a while and then after that, she was
16 transferred to the restaurant. This is what I had heard.
17 Q. In the statement that you gave in Zagreb, you discussed an
18 incident during which a guard called Pavlic killed two to three men
19 according to what you said; is that true?
20 A. It is true. He knows about that. When he shot through the window
21 and we had to --
22 Q. How many people were killed on that occasion?
23 A. Two to three people.
24 Q. You stated, I'm quoting, "At night, they would take us to the
25 restaurant, 700 people. We couldn't even sit down. We were very close to
1 each other and then they would yell lie down and those that were still
2 left standing would be shot. Pavlic was the worst. He killed the most
3 people. He said he used to work in Zagreb as a mailman."
4 Is that true?
5 A. It is true those who are sitting over there know about this.
6 Q. Sir, Mr. Kugic, do you know a reason for hating people of other
8 A. No.
9 Q. Is it because you lost a lot of property that now you have a
10 desire to take revenge on other people?
11 A. No. I am very pleased that I did not turn into a nationalist.
12 Even to this day, I have a lot of friends, Serbs, in Prijedor who love
13 me. Prijedor is full of wonderful people. I've been living together with
14 them for the past four years.
15 Q. Do you know Mr. Delic Nedjo?
16 A. Yes, very well.
17 Q. What can you tell us about that man?
18 A. I can tell you that he never gave me a reason -- he never caused
19 any problems to me.
20 Q. Why did you then in a statement given in Zagreb say that Nedjo
21 Delic had organised the looting of your property? Let me quote the exact
22 phrase. Do you remember saying that?
23 A. I did not say that. It is probably a mistake. I did not -- in
24 Zagreb, I did not read the statement of mine before signing it.
25 Q. You stated that Mrs. Balaban was in the camp and that she notified
1 the journalist that that was not the camp but a collection centre, rather?
2 A. Well, yes, she was accompanying journalists and she was telling
3 them that that was not a camp, it was a collection centre. It was on TV
4 stations throughout the world.
5 Q. So did you hear the tape or did you see her?
6 A. I saw her with my own eyes when she was in the camp with the
8 Q. So you saw her in the Investigation Centre Omarska?
9 A. In Omarska camp when she came together with Simo Drljaca and with
10 all other guards.
11 Q. Did you -- on that occasion, were you able to say what was she --
12 were you able to hear what was she saying to the journalists?
13 A. You mean what was she saying?
14 Q. Yes, she.
15 A. Well, I heard what she said when she came out.
16 Q. Well, how were you able --
17 A. When I came out.
18 Q. Well, how were you able to hear that?
19 A. Well, this is what's written over there.
20 Q. Excuse me, but will you please answer my question. How and when
21 did you hear what she said?
22 A. I was surprised by her statement.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Masic. The
24 witness, from the very beginning, has been saying that he did not sign
25 that statement which means that it is not appropriate for you to say or to
1 claim that he said that. First of all, you should ask the witness, did
2 he, in fact, say that, then hear what he has to respond and then confront
4 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in direct questioning,
5 this witness, when asked by my learned colleague Mr. Saxon, replied that
6 he did, in fact, sign that statement and then when he was asked again by
7 Mr. Saxon whether he had seen that statement the previous day in the
8 Prosecutor's office, he replied that he had not seen it.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise. The way I heard it
10 is that the witness stated that the statement had not been read to him.
11 This is what I heard. I apologise. I made a mistake. What I wanted to
12 say was that the witness was not given an opportunity to review, to look
13 over this statement once again but, in fact, if he did say that he had
14 signed it without reading it, then we are back at the starting point.
15 The witness simply is not recognising this statement. So first of
16 all, you should ask him whether, in fact, he did state that and then
18 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the very reason
19 why I, in fact, quoted those very sections of his statement but let me do
20 this briefly now.
21 Q. Mr. Kugic, did you know a gentleman called Brk?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Was he Mr. Meakic's deputy?
24 A. I think he was. He was a taxi driver.
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters --
1 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Your claim that Drago Prcac was calling out the prisoners who were
3 to be transferred to Manjaca, was that true what you claimed?
4 A. Yes. The names were called in the restaurant, but we didn't know
5 who would be going where.
6 Q. Mr. Kugic, do you know somebody called Hase Icic?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you know Nusret Sivac?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In your statements, did you claim that Nusret Sivac and Hase Icic
11 can affirm all this?
12 A. I cannot recall saying that.
13 Q. In your statement you said that Omarska -- that Dragan Radakovic,
14 Bajo Mijic, Rajko Modic, Lakic, Drago Meakic, were investigators in
15 Omarska and that nobody came out alive from their interrogations?
16 A. They were interrogators and very few people left their
17 interrogations alive. Do you know how many people were killed there?
18 Dead people were driven away daily.
19 Q. No witness who testified here ever stated that he was hit by
20 Dragan Radakovic. Are you aware of that?
21 A. He didn't hit me either.
22 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no
23 further questions.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Masic.
25 Mr. Saxon, how much time do you need for additional questions
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 approximately? Please tell us.
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm very respectful of the hour and of
3 everyone's workload. I'm concerned that I might need perhaps 20 minutes
4 or half an hour even. So perhaps it would be best to continue this
5 tomorrow morning, if possible, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, if that is the case, then
7 I think it would be best to follow your recommendation because it would be
8 difficult to finish with this witness today. So let us continue
10 Mr. Kugic, we will adjourn for today and we will meet again in the
11 courtroom tomorrow in order to continue and finish up with your
12 testimony. I will ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom now.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So we shall meet
15 again tomorrow in this courtroom at 9.20 in the morning. Thank you.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
17 at 3.13 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday
18 the 30th day of May, 2001, at
19 9.20 a.m.