Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12128

1 Wednesday, 30 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.27 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. You may be

6 seated.

7 Good morning to the technical booth, the interpreters. Good

8 morning representatives of the registry, counsel for the Prosecution, the

9 Defence. We will continue with the examination of the witness who started

10 testifying yesterday with the redirect examination of the Prosecutor.

11 Would the usher please bring in the witness.

12 [The witness entered court]


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kugic. Can

16 you hear me.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] May I remind you that you are

19 continuing under oath with your testimony. Please be seated.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, you can begin with

22 the redirect.

23 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:

25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kugic.

Page 12129

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. Yesterday during the cross-examination, you told counsel for

3 Mr. Prcac that you have "given a number of statements," as a quote, "to

4 the Office of the Prosecutor." But you also said that you did not sign

5 these statements. You also said that, "Whenever they," that is, the

6 Office of the Prosecutor, "wanted me to give a statement, I would give

7 them a statement."

8 Now, I want to clarify with you what you meant when you said that

9 you gave "statements" to the Office of the Prosecutor. When you say that

10 you gave a statement or statements to the Office of the Prosecutor, are

11 you including those times, for example, when somebody from the Office of

12 the Prosecutor called you on the telephone and asked you some questions?

13 A. Of course.

14 Q. When you say that you gave a statement or statements to the Office

15 of the Prosecutor, are you also including times when somebody from the

16 Office of the Prosecutor visited you in the country where you live today,

17 asked you some questions and wrote down some notes?

18 A. Anybody who talked to me, I would give a statement in the country

19 I live.

20 Q. So when you use the term "statement" -- let me finish my

21 question. When you use the term "statement," you're referring to

22 situations where you had a conversation with someone; is that fair?

23 A. Yes, that's right, when I had a conversation.

24 Q. And on some of those occasions when you had conversations with a

25 representative from the Office of the Prosecutor, did somebody write down

Page 12130

1 some notes, if you know?

2 A. Well, they wrote something. I don't know.

3 Q. All right. But on any of these occasions over the years where you

4 have had conversations with the Office of the Prosecutor, have you ever

5 signed any document that purported to tell your experiences during the war

6 in Bosnia?

7 A. No.

8 MR. SAXON: At this time, I would like the Court's indulgence and

9 the assistance of the usher and registrar to distribute Prosecution

10 Exhibit 3/303. This exhibit will be marked for identification only. It

11 is the document that was used yesterday by counsel for the Prosecution

12 during the cross-examination of this witness. And if copies could be

13 distributed, and if an English version could be placed on the ELMO and the

14 B/C/S version given to the witness, please, I'd be very grateful.

15 So we can see, I'm wondering if the cameraperson who is working

16 the ELMO could pull back a little bit so we can see the title of this

17 document or if it can be moved down. Thank you very much.

18 Q. So this is a document. The title page says "Centre for Gathering

19 Documents and Processing Information about the Homeland War." There's an

20 address from Zagreb in Croatia, and we have the word "Statement."

21 Mr. Kugic, could you turn to the next page, please.

22 MR. SAXON: And, Mr. Usher, if you could turn to the next page,

23 please.

24 Q. On page 2 of the English version and page 2 of the B/C/S version,

25 we see the date "Zagreb, 15 June 1993." And then we see what appears to

Page 12131

1 be personal information.

2 Mr. Kugic, do you see the information there on that page?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. We see the last name Kugic, first name Mirsad, son of Dzafer. Are

5 those your personal particulars there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, yesterday during cross-examination, counsel for Mr. Prcac

8 asked you many questions about this statement that you gave to this

9 organisation in Zagreb in 1993. Do you remember being asked a series of

10 questions yesterday about this statement?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Now, during your direct examination yesterday, when I was asking

13 you questions, you said that you had signed this statement in Zagreb in

14 1993, but due to time constraints, you did not read it before you signed

15 it and nobody read it to you before you signed it. Do you recall telling

16 us that?

17 A. Yes, I did, and I didn't read it. I didn't have time and there

18 was a lot going on.

19 Q. Thank you. Could you turn now to the last page, both of the

20 English version and of the B/C/S version, please.

21 Mr. Kugic, on the last page, at the very bottom -- excuse me, at

22 the end of the text we see the words "In Zagreb, 15 June 1993." Then we

23 see the words "Statement given by: Mirsad Kugic." And then over to the

24 right we see the words "Statement recorded by: Andrija Pavicic." Do you

25 see that?

Page 12132

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. So when you gave this statement to the organisation called the

3 "Centre for Gathering Documents" in Zagreb in 1993, did you give it to a

4 man named Andrija Pavicic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, tell me, was Andrija Pavicic a professional investigator, if

7 you know?

8 A. No. He was a driver, private driver from Prijedor, and he was in

9 the camp together with me.

10 Q. So you're saying that Andrija Pavicic was also detained in the

11 Omarska camp in 1992?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And by June 1993, was Andrija Pavicic also a refugee like you in

14 Zagreb?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Just so we understand, in June of 1993, this Mr. Pavicic was

17 working in this organisation in Zagreb, taking statements from former

18 Omarska detainees like yourself; is that right?

19 A. Yes. The camp inmates organised themselves.

20 Q. On that day in 1993 when you gave this statement in Zagreb, were

21 there many people in that office waiting to give their statement to

22 Mr. Pavicic?

23 A. Hundreds.

24 Q. All right. Did you feel the pressure of time?

25 A. There wasn't much space. There was a lot of pressure because

Page 12133

1 there were lots of people. They were all in a hurry to make their

2 statements and go off into other parts of the world.

3 Q. All right. Now, yesterday counsel for Mr. Prcac discussed many

4 parts of this statement with you, but there's another paragraph that I

5 would like you to comment on. Can you turn, please, to page 7 of the

6 B/C/S version that's in front of you.

7 MR. SAXON: And for those following along in English, could they

8 turn to page 8, please.

9 Q. Mr. Kugic, do you have page 7 in front of you now?

10 A. Yes, I have.

11 Q. I think you will see in the last paragraph -- that the last

12 paragraph on page 7, and in the English version it's the paragraph that's

13 towards the top of the page, the last paragraph begins with the phrase

14 "when I got over being put in the camp." Do you see that?

15 A. You mean the last paragraph?

16 Q. Yes. It begins with the lines, "When I got over being put in the

17 camp," on page 7.

18 A. Just a moment, please. Yes, I can see it now.

19 Q. All right. That paragraph begins like this: "When I got over

20 being put in the camp, I fixed it in my head that I had to find a way to

21 get out of the camp alive. I decided that it was better to give the

22 lower-ranking guards small amounts of money rather than to give a load of

23 marks to one, because all those who gave money were later killed." Do you

24 see that?

25 A. I see that, yes.

Page 12134

1 Q. Now, skip down a few sentences in that paragraph and you see a

2 short sentence that says, "And they took me out too." Do you see that

3 sentence?

4 A. They took me out at 11.00 p.m., you mean that?

5 Q. All right. Well, just above that, a few lines above that we see

6 the words, "And they took me out too." Do you see that?

7 A. They took everybody out.

8 Q. Do you see the lines that it says: "And they took me out too"?

9 Do you see those words? Let me try to make it easier for you, Mr. Kugic.

10 Do you see the name Drago Prcac in the middle of that paragraph?

11 A. I'll find it. Just a moment.

12 Q. In that last paragraph, Mr. Prcac -- Mr. Kugic, do you see the

13 name Drago Prcac?

14 A. Yes, I see it.

15 Q. All right. Well, let's start -- let's start with that sentence,

16 then: "The whole night Drago Prcac tried to force me to give him money.

17 His ..." perhaps it should be he, I don't know, "His was the security

18 chief of the camp. He tried to force me to give him money. They took me

19 out at 11.00 p.m. The whole night he was trying to persuade me, saying

20 things like there were some shameless people asking for money, and that I

21 should give it to him now and he would pass it on to the ones asking for

22 it. He was making out that he was a good man. I told him I had no money,

23 that I had bought a restaurant and spent all my money, that my family did

24 not even have anything to eat. I had seen that all those who gave money

25 were killed." Do you see what I've just read to you?

Page 12135

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Now, the Drago Prcac that you refer to in that paragraph, is that

3 the same Dragoljub Prcac that you described to me yesterday during your

4 testimony? Yes or no.

5 A. Yes, the same one.

6 Q. Now, in this paragraph that I've just read to you, you don't

7 mention that Dragoljub Prcac also called you out a second time. Was that

8 something that was simply omitted from your statement at the time in 1993?

9 A. No, I probably omitted it, yes, because --

10 Q. All right.

11 MR. SAXON: If that can be removed now. We don't need to refer to

12 this any more.

13 Q. Now, yesterday on cross-examination, you were also asked about the

14 killings of people from a place - and pardon my poor pronunciation - of a

15 place called Rizvanovici. Is that a village located in the area of

16 opstina Prijedor known as Brdo or Brdja?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you present at the Omarska camp when the killings of the men

19 from Brdo occurred?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, yesterday you testified that these killings occurred in the

22 second half of the month of June. Now, since you yourself didn't arrive

23 at the Omarska camp until the second half of the month of June, did you

24 mean to say that the killings of the prisoners from Brdo occurred in the

25 second half of the month of July?

Page 12136

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Masic.

2 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. My learned

3 colleague is leading the witness. Yesterday the witness was resolute in

4 stating everything about the dates, and I asked him in detail about all

5 that and he stated what he did yesterday. I don't see why the Prosecution

6 is entering into speculation and trying to transfer an event which the

7 witness said occurred in June to July.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Saxon, please

9 rephrase your question. Instead of making an assertion, saying something

10 in the affirmative, could you ask a question with a question mark, a

11 straight direct question. Go ahead, please.

12 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. Mr. Kugic, to the best of

13 your recollection, when did the killings of the prisoners from Brdo

14 occur? When in 1992?

15 A. It occurred in July, the second half of July. Everybody knows

16 that who was in the camp and in the "glass house," those who were there,

17 and these ones over here know that very well too.

18 Q. Mr. Kugic, I just want you to answer the questions that I've asked

19 you. All right?

20 Did you see the men from Brdo being brought into the Omarska camp

21 in late July?

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the month. Could the

23 witness repeat the month, please. Could the witness repeat the month.


25 Q. Could you say the month again, please. The interpreters are

Page 12137

1 asking you to repeat the month again.

2 A. July, the month of July.

3 Q. All right. My question is: Did you see the men from Brdo being

4 brought into the Omarska camp in July?

5 A. I did see it. Yes, of course.

6 Q. When these men from Brdo were taken off the buses, where were they

7 taken?

8 A. One by one, the buses were unloaded. They got out of the buses

9 one by one.

10 Q. And as each busload of prisoners was unloaded, where were these

11 prisoners taken, approximately where?

12 A. First of all, when they emptied one bus, they would beat the

13 people with blunt objects, all types, pipes, but there weren't a lot. On

14 the one side there was a wall and glass and on the other side were the

15 people who beat the people.

16 Once they finished with one busload --

17 Q. My question was: Where were these people taken?

18 A. They were taken off towards the "white house."

19 Q. All right. And you say that they were being beaten during this

20 time; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, could you see this from where you were in the "glass house"?

23 Yes or no.

24 A. Yes. I saw everything.

25 Q. That evening when darkness fell, what did you hear?

Page 12138

1 A. I heard groans and moans and shots until the morning, all the

2 time. Not only me. All of us heard it.

3 Q. The next morning, did you see any dead bodies?

4 A. In the morning, there was a dredger. We heard the sounds of a

5 dredger and a truck, and they were loading up the dead bodies. And

6 afterwards, we saw it with our own eyes.

7 Q. You say there was a truck. Was it a small truck or a big truck?

8 A. Two big trucks, big ones. We saw that.

9 Q. Were these trucks loaded full of dead bodies?

10 A. People were piled up to the very top. And they would pick up half

11 a body with the dredger; the other half would be broken off.

12 Q. Now, moving on, yesterday you were asked if you knew a gentleman

13 named Brk at the Omarska camp, and you said that you did know this person

14 named Brk and that --

15 A. I know him.

16 Q. -- and that -- you said that you thought that this man called Brk

17 was Mr. Meakic's deputy. That was the word that was used in the

18 question.

19 A. I think it was his deputy at that time.

20 Q. Would you see this man named Brk driving Zeljko Meakic around in

21 an automobile?

22 A. Mostly when Zeljko Meakic came we would see him alone, but I saw

23 Brk with him sometimes. Brk was a short man. He was a former taxi

24 driver.

25 Q. When you say that Brk was a deputy to Zeljko Meakic, are you using

Page 12139

1 the term "deputy" to mean someone acting like a personal assistant or how

2 are you using that term?

3 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. My learned

4 colleague is trying throughout this time to testify instead of the

5 witness. Let him ask him directly, specifically.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, perhaps you could ask

7 the question in the following way and say, "What does deputy mean to you,

8 Witness?" That would be clearer. "What do you mean by deputy?" That

9 would be clearer. Go ahead.


11 Q. When you say that you thought that this man Brk was a deputy to

12 Zeljko Meakic, what does that term "deputy" mean to you? How are you

13 using that term "deputy"?

14 A. We inmates who were in the "glass house" considered that, and from

15 Mile Mandic, at the same time, who was a Serb and lay there with me, who

16 was in there with me, he said that Brk was more or less a sort of deputy.

17 Q. You didn't answer my question, Mr. Kugic. My question is: What

18 do you mean by the word "deputy"?

19 A. I mean that when Zeljko Meakic isn't there, his duty is taken over

20 by Brk.

21 Q. What position did Dragoljub Prcac have in the Omarska camp?

22 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Masic.

24 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. There was no

25 examination of this during the examination-in-chief or redirect.

Page 12140

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You've made your

2 objection. No need to develop it. We have understood the idea.

3 What is your response, Mr. Saxon?

4 MR. SAXON: My response is the purpose of redirect examination is

5 to clarify points and statements and information that was given during

6 cross-examination.

7 Now, during cross-examination, my colleague asked questions about

8 a man named Brk, and my colleague asked the witness specifically, "Was Brk

9 Mr. Meakic's deputy?" although he did not ask this witness to define the

10 term "deputy." Now, I'm trying to clarify who this person was and what

11 relationship this person Brk had with Mr. Prcac and with Mr. Meakic.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If that's what you want to do,

13 the question is to know whether there was a relationship between that

14 person and Mr. Prcac. That's the question that you ought to be asking.

15 Otherwise, you're going to ask a question that was not raised, in fact,

16 during the cross-examination.

17 So the request, in my mind, should be what is the relationship

18 between that person, Brk, and Prcac, between Brk and Prcac.

19 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I take your point, but I would like to

20 respond very briefly. Perhaps it would be clearer and just as fair to ask

21 the witness what the relationship was then between Mr. Prcac and

22 Mr. Meakic because --

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.

24 MR. SAXON: -- that was the issue that was raised on

25 cross-examination.

Page 12141

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Go ahead then.


3 Q. What relationship in the Omarska camp did Mr. Prcac have vis-a-vis

4 Mr. Meakic, if you know?

5 A. We would often see Mr. Prcac, who would carry papers with him, and

6 there were rumours amongst us that he was the commander of the security of

7 the camp and that he had a very close relationship with Zeljko Meakic.

8 Likewise, we saw him being addressed by the guards and we realised that he

9 was an individual there who was actually a link between him and the

10 guards; that is, the security personnel of the camp.

11 Q. Mr. Kugic, just to be clear so that the record is clear, when you

12 say, "Likewise, we saw him being addressed by the guards and we realised

13 that he was an individual there," who is "him"? Who is "he"? Who is the

14 person you're referring to?

15 A. I'm referring to Mr. Prcac, and these guys over there were his

16 subordinates, simply speaking.

17 Q. All right. Yesterday during your cross-examination you said that

18 on your last day in the Omarska camp before you were put on a bus for

19 Manjaca, you were in the restaurant with five women. Do you recall saying

20 that?

21 A. I do. That's how it was.

22 Q. While you were in that restaurant with those five women, was

23 Dragoljub Prcac also present in the restaurant at any time?

24 A. He would come to see us, and he was present there, and he would

25 talk to me, and he also talked to those women.

Page 12142

1 Q. What, if anything, did Mr. Prcac say to you on that day in the

2 restaurant?

3 A. He told me that I should remain there until further notice,

4 together with those other women, and we could all watch this. Together

5 with him was a soldier with an automatic rifle --

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Masic.

7 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry to interrupt, Your Honours,

8 but my learned colleague is continuing with his examination-in-chief of

9 this witness. He has just opened up a new issue here.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon.

11 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour, I have not opened up a new issue.

12 This was an issue that was brought up during cross-examination yesterday.

13 It was brought up during -- pardon me, please. This is at page 104 of

14 yesterday's LiveNote transcript. Mr. Masic asked, "Are you telling us

15 that on that day when you were leaving for Manjaca, Dragoljub Prcac called

16 out your names in the hangar?" Answer, "Yes, and I was kept in the

17 restaurant together with five women." And Mr. Masic leaves that point and

18 goes on to another point.

19 I want to clarify what happened in the restaurant, and what

20 Mr. Prcac was doing that day.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Masic, do you maintain your

22 objection? Have you accepted the explanation?

23 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I maintain my objection

24 and stand by it because --

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Objection is overruled.

Page 12143

1 Mr. Saxon, please continue with the question.

2 MR. SAXON: Okay.

3 Q. Now, before we were interrupted, I asked you what Mr. Prcac said

4 to you on that day in the restaurant, and you responded, "He told me that

5 I should remain there until further notice, together with those other

6 women." Was that all he said to you that day in the restaurant? Did the

7 conversation end there?

8 A. That is what he told me, and that is where I remained. And

9 subsequently he came once again, but at that time we were crying because

10 we realised that other people were leaving and we didn't know where we

11 would go. Nobody knew where he or she was supposed to go on that day.

12 Some people were being loaded on buses, others were being loaded on some

13 other buses. And those five women and myself -- I know three of them,

14 Mrs. Mahmuljin, who is the wife of Mr. Mahmuljin, the dentist from

15 Kozarac, then Mugbila Besirevic who worked as an economist in the bank --

16 Q. Mr. Kugic, when Mr. Prcac -- if Mr. Prcac returned to the

17 restaurant that day, what, if anything, did he say?

18 A. He said that I should stay there until further notice, and I

19 wanted to know why. I asked him, but there was no answer as to why, and

20 he said --

21 Q. All right.

22 A. -- that our place was there.

23 Q. All right. Subsequently, were you taken out of the restaurant

24 that day?

25 A. After a while when there were no more people on the pista, he came

Page 12144













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 12145

1 again, together with another soldier. But what was particularly difficult

2 for me was the fact that towards the end of the camp, a man by the name of

3 Ranko Kovacevic, called Bato, who had brought me there, who had come to

4 see me, told me that there was even a signature on the paper which would

5 enable me to leave the camp, which was the signature of Dr. Kovacevic, and

6 that piece of paper was handed over to him.

7 Q. Mr. Kugic --

8 A. And that is why I thought I would be liquidated.

9 Q. Mr. Kugic, were you taken out of the restaurant that day? Yes or

10 no.

11 A. Yes, I was taken out of the restaurant.

12 Q. Were you --

13 A. They took me across the pista to the hangar building, and they put

14 me on the last bus. I thought the bus was empty. But as I was passing

15 through the hangar, I saw some people who were still showing signs of life

16 but who couldn't actually move.

17 Q. Mr. Kugic, in the hangar did you see Dragoljub Prcac?

18 A. Well, he was walking with me.

19 Q. All right. During that walk, did Dragoljub Prcac say anything to

20 you or you to him, yes or no?

21 A. He told me to go over to the bus 'cause I didn't know where I was

22 supposed to go, and there was this man carrying an automatic rifle there,

23 a short man.

24 Q. And then were you put on a bus and sent to Manjaca?

25 A. I was put on the bus, which was the last bus in the line as far as

Page 12146

1 I could see at that moment.

2 Q. Mr. Kugic --

3 A. People were crowded --

4 Q. Yes or no: Were you put on a bus and sent to Manjaca?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, just to move along, my last few questions. Yesterday counsel

7 for Mr. Prcac asked you if you had a reason for hating people of other

8 ethnicities, and he suggested that because you lost a lot of property in

9 Prijedor, you now have a desire for revenge.

10 Now, tell us, please, have you been able to obtain your property

11 or properties in Prijedor that was taken from you in 1992? Have you

12 gotten some of your property back?

13 A. Everything has been returned to me, and I personally got it. I

14 personally received it. I have no reason whatsoever to hate anyone. Many

15 people helped me. This man helped me, too, this one here, Krle. He gave

16 me some food at one point in time. I have to admit that. I'm looking him

17 in his eye. And he never beat me; he never mistreated me.

18 When I was brought to Omarska -- when I came to Omarska, at the

19 triage restaurant I saw Kvocka sitting there in a uniform. He was there

20 with Mrs. Lakic, and he didn't mistreat me on that day, though he could

21 have; he had a weapon. And it is from there that Bato took me to

22 Omarska. I have to -- I have to say that because that -- it's true.

23 Q. You're going to be given some more time to talk about this, but I

24 want to go through some questions with you.

25 Although you don't live in Prijedor today, are you presently

Page 12147

1 receiving income from those properties that you have -- that have been

2 returned to you? Yes or no.

3 A. Yes, I receive income, and I live in Prijedor as much as I can in

4 view of my schedule.

5 Q. Have you recently had a wedding in your family? Yes or no.

6 A. Yes. My son got married, and he married a Serb woman.

7 Q. Are you happy about this marriage?

8 A. I'm the happiest man in the world.

9 Q. After you left Prijedor and moved to a third country, have any

10 Serbs who remained in Prijedor, anyone sent their children to live with

11 you? Please don't mention any names, please.

12 A. Of course. Yes, for sure. I still have them with me.

13 There were many good people. Not everybody's the same. There

14 were a few individuals who were there in Prijedor. And the citizens of

15 Prijedor, generally speaking, are honest men.

16 And I live for that city. I've been going to Prijedor for the

17 past four years, and I have never experienced anything unpleasant. My

18 property has not been returned by the authorities or the International

19 Community. It was my people, my fellow citizens, my town that returned

20 that property to me.

21 Q. Mr. Klugic, do you consider yourself to be Serb, Muslim, something

22 else?

23 A. I consider myself a Bosnian. At the time of Yugoslavia, that is,

24 the country in which everybody had a good life, I lived in Slovenia, and

25 I -- and I was a Yugoslav, and I declared myself as such. But then I

Page 12148

1 moved to -- I went to Bosnia and I declare myself as Bosnian. I'm still a

2 Bosnian.

3 And there's something else that I wish to add and that is the fact

4 that I hate explicit expressions, explicit declarations of nationality,

5 and I think -- of ethnicity. I also have to say that my sister is married

6 to a Serb.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I have no further

9 questions.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.

11 Judge Fouad Riad, do you have any questions for the witness?

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Klugic.

14 A. Good morning.

15 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] I have just a very few questions.

16 You mentioned yesterday that you knew Mr. Prcac before the war. Did I

17 understand you rightly? And you saw him almost daily?

18 A. When I was in Prijedor, I would see him often, and I knew him.

19 JUDGE RIAD: There was some kind of relationship or you just saw

20 him casually in the street?

21 A. We would see each other casually in the street, but we were not

22 friends.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Now, he came to you more than once, and yesterday and

24 today you mentioned that he would ask you for money and he told you it

25 will be difficult. You said yesterday he told you it will be difficult

Page 12149

1 for you to leave if you don't pay and you will have the same fate as the

2 others. I think you concluded that it will be fatal.

3 Now, was he -- you have -- really perhaps this is almost your own

4 perception. Did he convey to you the message that it was the institution

5 itself which he was representing or was he speaking for himself? Because

6 in the statement which you read today, he told you - I can read it for

7 you - "I should give the money now and pass it on to the ones asking for

8 it."

9 So did you conclude that it was for the institution, for the camp

10 itself, or for himself?

11 A. It was then -- actually, I realised at that point that only if I

12 should find myself in the situation to give away a lot of money, that I

13 would be liquidated, that I would disappear, leaving no trace behind. And

14 I thought that it was him acting on his own, personally.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Then my second question: If he was acting on his

16 own, you mentioned also that -- you suggested to him to transfer the

17 property of your land to him and he refused. If it was for him, why did

18 he refuse, in your opinion? Could he have accepted it and got away with

19 it?

20 A. I think that the reason why he refused is because I was a

21 well-known citizen and that the truth would emerge one day about it.

22 JUDGE RIAD: So you think it was for himself that he was asking

23 the money, absolutely? That was your impression?

24 A. Absolutely, yes. I claim that with certainty.

25 JUDGE RIAD: And you said when -- when he returned you to "glass

Page 12150

1 house," nobody would beat you after that. Was it because they saw you

2 with him? Was it because of his --

3 A. No. Nobody beat me. And he didn't beat me either, nor did he

4 force me to do anything, that's for sure. I was sometimes taken away by

5 the guards and would get a slap here or there, but that's it. Neither the

6 first time nor the second time, although we spent that evening together,

7 but he never beat me.

8 JUDGE RIAD: In your statement which we saw today, it's mentioned

9 that -- you said - it's in English: "His was the security chief of the

10 camp."

11 What is the meaning of this sentence?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE RIAD: [Previous translation continues]... security chief of

14 the camp?

15 A. He was for sure the security chief of the camp. It was his

16 official duty. He always carried papers with him, and he was addressed to

17 by the guards and those sitting behind him now.

18 JUDGE RIAD: Was that your own conclusion from what you saw or was

19 it some kind of official position?

20 A. It was our conclusion, I mean us who were being in the "glass

21 house," and also the people who used to work with Mr. Prcac, and Ago

22 Sadikovic -- such as Ago Sadikovic and others, Vahid Rizvanovic, for

23 example, Reuf Travancic.

24 JUDGE RIAD: You saw that he was obeyed?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12151

1 JUDGE RIAD: He gave orders?

2 A. Yes, of course. They were his subordinates.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Just in passing, this is a question you may answer.

4 When you happened to -- you mentioned in the cross-examination that you

5 had a quarrel in the football match, and you were convicted for beating

6 Borislav at the football stadium.

7 Is this a common phenomenon? Was it also in your country a common

8 phenomenon to quarrel in football matches, like elsewhere, or what, or why

9 did you do it?

10 A. If Your Honour should allow me to explain. I have almost

11 forgotten that. I'm a quick-tempered man by nature and I used to be a

12 sportsman. I played handball.

13 The incident occurred during a football match a long time ago. I

14 can hardly remember it. I think it was in 1974. And I have contact with

15 this man today. His name is Veselinovic. I see him from time to time.

16 It was not a criminal offence, and if I am here to answer for that, you

17 can judge for yourself.

18 As I said, I'm in touch with this man. And when I was in Prijedor

19 seven days ago, I saw him. That can be easily checked. And you know,

20 during the killing era in Prijedor, he would have come to me and killed me

21 if he had any grudge against me. We were very young in those days. And I

22 beat one of these guys here, sitting on my left. Remember when it was in

23 high school. We knew each other when we were children. We played ball,

24 and we started to fight. We were friends.

25 I have to tell you the truth. Right?

Page 12152

1 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Mr. Klugic. Thank you.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

3 Judge Riad.

4 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

5 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Klugic, you told us that you gave small amounts

6 of money to some of the lower-echelon guards so they wouldn't beat you,

7 and you didn't want to give a lot of money to any one because when that

8 happened, people disappeared or got killed subsequently.

9 My question to you is: During your period in the camp, did anyone

10 besides Mr. Prcac try to get money from you, try to extort money from

11 you? Was he the only --

12 A. No, he didn't.

13 JUDGE WALD: No. No.

14 A. No one did.

15 JUDGE WALD: No one did. So he was the only one that took you

16 aside and tried to get a large amount of money from you; is that right?

17 Okay. Thank you.

18 A. Only him, nobody else asked me for money. There were other people

19 there, you know, ordinary guys who would drink a lot and who would beat

20 people, but I would then give them some small money so as not to be beaten

21 up, and that's how it was.

22 As for large sums of money, I couldn't get that. I couldn't have

23 it in the camp. It was not safe to have a large amount of money. But I

24 would give away small sums of money to the guards, 'cause there were

25 different kinds of people there. They were not all the same. They should

Page 12153

1 not be treated equally.

2 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge

4 Wald.

5 Mr. Kugic, I also have a few brief questions for you. Do you

6 remember how many times you gave a statement before coming here to

7 testify?

8 A. Your Honour, whatever the institution, I would give a statement in

9 order for the truth to be known publicly. I have given statements to the

10 fact also that there were many honest people there.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but I should like to know

12 how many times you gave a statement. You gave one statement in 1993 and

13 then when was it next time? And how many times did you give a statement?

14 A. I gave a statement in Germany to the German authorities in Worms,

15 and when I was working in Munich, I gave a statement there as well.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In what year was it, when did

17 you give a statement to German authorities?

18 A. I think sometime in 1994, 1995. Maybe later, maybe a year later.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And then? Any other statements?

20 A. I gave other statements as well. Once I even gave a statement

21 here in The Hague, that is, actually in this place. There was a woman by

22 the name of Fiona who conducted the interview.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you ever make a statement to

24 the journalists or on TV, to the mass media?

25 A. No, I never did that.

Page 12154

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is it normal for you to speak to

2 your friends, acquaintances, other people, even if they are not any

3 official authorities, but what you had gone through in the Omarska camp?

4 A. I'm sorry, I don't quite understand your question. Do you mean

5 when I am in Prijedor?

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You know, very often we hear

7 people say that they have never spoken about those events before coming

8 here to the Tribunal. What I want to know is, except for the authorities,

9 official authorities, either in Croatia or in Germany, were you ever in a

10 situation to speak about these events with your friends when you're in a

11 cafe or have a drink -- having a drink somewhere, or is it only to the

12 authorities that you gave a statement and spoke about those events?

13 A. Well, I spoke about it with my wife, mostly. As regards official

14 authorities, I have already indicated those I talked to. And also when I

15 went to Prijedor after that, when I saw my friends again, we talked about

16 it, of course. We cried and we expressed our regrets for the life that we

17 once had.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Kugic.

19 Thank you for coming here to testify.

20 I see that Mr. Deretic is on his feet.

21 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm very sorry to be

22 obliged to react in this manner. The gentleman sitting here, the witness

23 who is from the same town as I am, has said something that is not really

24 adequate.

25 We do know each other. We did have a conflict, that is true. As

Page 12155

1 to who beat whom, I think that people from our town know about it. I just

2 want to draw your attention to such a reaction to the witness, and I'm

3 surprised that he didn't say that I was the camp in the Omarska --

4 commander in the Omarska camp.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic, you know that

6 this world is a very small place, and I don't know whether other Defence

7 counsel had similar experiences or not. I don't think that there should

8 be any problem. The witness spoke spontaneously, and we should not

9 interpret it as a problem. And the Judges think it's a pretty normal

10 reaction, if I understand correctly the situation.

11 Mr. Kugic, you have just completed your testimony before the

12 Tribunal. Thank you very much for coming here. We should like to wish

13 you a safe journey back to your place of residence, and now let me ask the

14 usher to accompany you out of the courtroom. Thank you very much.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may add something, Your Honour,

16 with your permission?

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I sit down?

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, please sit down. Go ahead.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My basic motive for testifying is

21 the following, and I'd like you to understand me. I'll speak slowly.

22 My basic motive is that I -- throughout my whole life and future,

23 I would have been haunted by the dead people I had seen and the people who

24 were beaten and me not coming forward to testify. That was my first

25 reason.

Page 12156

1 My second motive, second reason, is because of the family members

2 who survived, so for them I have come forward to testify.

3 And thirdly, because of the future, for the future of the world,

4 for the future of my own hometown, for the future of that unfortunate area

5 we live in, the Balkans, and for the still very mixed and very nice and

6 fine multinational, multi-ethnic life that goes on there and that I

7 experienced just a few days ago; because of the people, the people whom I

8 have great feelings for in my hometown when I returned four years ago, and

9 all those people looked after my property throughout the war. All through

10 the war they looked after my property, and with my return, when I returned

11 nobody said a bad word to me and hurt me in any way. And everybody came

12 out -- not through the police, being thrown out by the police or anything

13 like that, not through any international authorities, either, but through

14 personal agreement and with a desire to do this. They were happy to.

15 Regardless of the fact that they had this property while I was away, they

16 were happy to see me back and to be able to give it back to me.

17 There was just one blemish, one dark spot that happened in

18 Prijedor, and for the Serbian people too, and that just because of a few

19 people. And thousands of people live in Prijedor. The Serbs, they lived

20 there before the war with the Muslims, with the Catholics. They live

21 there now. And that is why, because of all of those people I have come

22 here to testify.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Kugic, thank you for coming

24 here to testify. We have understood your message. We have understood

25 your motives for coming. We should like to thank you, and we see that

Page 12157

1 that too is one of the functions of the Tribunal, that we have this peace

2 accord and sow the seeds of peace.

3 And Mr. Kugic, as you leave us now, we thank you very much for

4 coming, and we would like to say to you we have understood your message.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not everybody is the same.

6 Good-bye.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.

9 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I just have one small

10 request. A few moments ago in response to one of Your Honours' questions,

11 the witness mentioned not just a country where he lives but even the city

12 where he presently lives. This is on page 25, line 6 to 7 of the

13 LiveNote. And I would just -- if that information could simply be

14 redacted from the public record we'd be grateful. Thank you.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't think there were any

16 protective measures in force for that witness, Mr. Saxon. It was a public

17 hearing.

18 MR. SAXON: That is correct, Your Honour. However, certainly we,

19 as an office, have always tried to at least maintain the privacy of a

20 witness's current location, so that would be the request that we have.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Masic.

22 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness did not ask

23 for that. He said he lived in Prijedor, and that he lived in the town

24 that he lives, that mostly all the witnesses, Prosecution witnesses live

25 in that same city, and it's no secret for anyone.

Page 12158

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber sees no reason to

3 redact this reference. So the transcript will stand as it is because

4 there were no protective measures put into place for the witness. He

5 volunteered the information and was free to express himself.

6 So it will stand as is.

7 I think that we have come to the end of that testimony and the

8 witness. There are, however, two matters that the Chamber would like to

9 address; that is to say, the decision regarding documents raised

10 yesterday, and we have another witness, one more witness, Witness K. I

11 think he was scheduled for Friday. As regards Witness K, I would like to

12 share with the parties -- that is to say, I would like to ask the parties

13 for information.

14 Ms. Susan Somers, will you call the witness on Friday? Is that

15 right?

16 MS. SOMERS: Sorry, Your Honour, the witness will be recalled

17 Friday. We've so informed Mr. Fila who will be coming in especially.

18 Thank you.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the witness will be here for

20 a cross-examination by the Defence; is that correct?

21 MS. SOMERS: It was a limited cross on certain points, Your

22 Honour, yes.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. The Chamber will analyse

24 the question of documents during the morning, and perhaps the parties

25 would be available in the afternoon, either to hear the oral ruling of the

Page 12159













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 12160

1 Chamber or to continue the proceedings following the ruling, if they need

2 to call back witnesses. I should like to ask the parties to be ready to

3 proceed in that manner.

4 Therefore, the parties can have a nice, quiet lunch, and we shall

5 return, reconvene at around 1.00 to impart our ruling. The Chamber will

6 give a ruling at about 1.00, and the proceedings after the ruling is

7 heard.

8 So we need this time to analyse the issue, to discuss the question

9 amongst ourselves.

10 Mr. Masic.

11 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. The Defence

12 would like to suggest that the judgement should be tendered. We gave it

13 to the Registry, and so I should like to tender the judgement of yesterday

14 into evidence. It was the judgement on Mirsad Kugic following criminal

15 proceedings.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon.

17 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution has been provided with a

18 copy both in English and B/C/S of this judgement. We have no objection to

19 its admission into evidence.

20 I'm not sure if it was marked or given a number yesterday, so I

21 think it needs to be given an exhibit number. But the Prosecution does

22 not object to its admission, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Masic, you did not identify

24 the document yesterday. You didn't present it to the witness yesterday,

25 did you?

Page 12161

1 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I asked the witness

2 about the document, and he said that it did, in fact, refer to him. We

3 didn't have a copy yesterday. We had very little time to prepare for this

4 part of the trial, so that we got a copy yesterday and translated it and

5 are in a position to present it today. But if it is a problem, we will

6 bring an official in for rejoinder, an official from the Tribunal, who

7 will explain the situation, a court clerk who will explain the situation,

8 but I thought that this would be a more opportune way.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see Mr. Saxon on his feet.

10 MR. SAXON: Yes. Again, Your Honour, the Prosecution will not

11 object to the admission of this document, but given the fact that a copy

12 was not shown to the witness yesterday so that he did not have the

13 opportunity to review it, we would simply argue that that fact should be

14 taken into consideration when the Trial Chamber determines how much weight

15 to give this evidence, that's all.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, may we have a

18 number for the document, please?


20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] May we have the document,

21 Mr. Masic?

22 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] The document has already been handed

23 to the registrar for you, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber admits the document

25 into evidence.

Page 12162

1 We are now going to adjourn until 1.00. We shall reconvene to

2 hear the ruling.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 2.12 p.m.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

6 I hope that I haven't caused too much problem with this delay. We

7 tried to inform you as soon as possible that we would be starting at 2.00

8 and not at 1.00, but I see that we are still a bit late.

9 I should like to know whether the parties have had an opportunity

10 to discuss the issue during this very long break, and I should like to

11 know whether you have anything to tell us.

12 I see that Ms. Somers is on her feet.

13 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Yes, there is a

14 matter that moments literally - unfortunately because of some printing

15 issues - moments before we resumed this afternoon's session, we

16 communicated with Mr. Lukic as co-counsel for Mr. Kvocka, about a

17 document, in response to some of the discussion yesterday about statement

18 or not concerning Witness AW. In this instance, although we -- we have no

19 statement, we felt that it might be helpful to clear up certain matters

20 while -- if in the most extreme situation the witness is still in The

21 Hague, if Mr. Lukic were at least satisfied that the subject matter that

22 was discussed yesterday in court was consistent and gathered in a fair

23 manner.

24 Mr. Lukic indicated he would need to read -- obviously to have a

25 chance to digest it and would like to speak to his client, and I indicated

Page 12163

1 that in my view he should approach the Chamber and ask the best way in

2 terms of intervals or opportunities.

3 We have distributed it in -- it is a confidential document, and

4 counsel -- other counsel have it. We felt that it was appropriate to do

5 so, and asked that it be guarded in that manner.

6 This is the sum and substance of it. Our position on 70(A) is

7 firm, and our position on non-statement is firm, but I felt that in the

8 interests of this particular matter and the discussion yesterday, this

9 would be perhaps a sound approach.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, before I give the

11 floor to Mr. Lukic to respond, I should like to clarify one matter. The

12 ruling of the Chamber concerning the use of previous statements of

13 witnesses has anything to do with the fact that you have now confirmed

14 that you did not have a statement of that witness, is there any link

15 between the two? Is there any connection between the two?

16 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour, there was -- that did influence the

17 decision-making process as the matter was pursued, this particular aspect

18 of any meeting with the witness was pursued for purposes of

19 cross-examination. And we are aware that statements are not permitted to

20 be used except for impeachment purposes, and there was really no other

21 purpose served other than to gather this information.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There's one more question. The

23 confidential document that you have provided to the Defence, Mr. Lukic,

24 could you tell us -- I don't know if you need a private session to discuss

25 the matter or not, but could you tell us what type of document we are

Page 12164

1 talking about. What is it exactly?

2 MS. SOMERS: May we go into private session for a moment, please.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private

4 session, please, for a few moments.

5 [Private session]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 12165













13 Pages 12165 to 12178 redacted private session.













Page 12179

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As regards the issue concerning

11 the disclosure of documents which was brought up by the Defence counsel

12 for the accused Mr. Kvocka, the Chamber decides to grant you one hour and

13 15 minutes to speak to your client and to decide, make your own decision

14 as to whether you are going to use this document and have the witness

15 recalled, the witness being available, in case you -- or if you don't

16 accept this solution.

17 If you do not accept this solution, the Chamber will adopt a

18 definite stand concerning this matter subsequently.

19 You have the document. You know about the circumstances in which

20 the document was obtained. You have enough time to decide whether or not

21 you accept the document and whether or not you need to ask questions of

22 the witness following your examination of the document.

23 If you decide to proceed, the witness is here, available, and he

24 can be heard once again. If you say no, the Chamber will then make an

25 appropriate ruling on the issue.

Page 12180

1 So one hour and 15 minutes means that you have until twenty

2 minutes past 4.00. No. No, five minutes past 4.00. We will have a

3 break, and during the break you will have an opportunity to confer with

4 your client. At 4.05 we will come back to hear your decision.

5 --- Recess taken at 2.53 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

8 Mr. Jovan Simic, there seems to be a problem with Mr. Prcac. Is

9 there anything you wish to tell us about it?

10 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Mr. Prcac

11 has been taken ill. The Security Service has contacted me. We can

12 continue the proceedings, but I just wanted to inform you that Mr. Prcac

13 was urgently transferred to the Detention Unit. I haven't had any contact

14 with him there, but I think it's his high blood pressure again. The

15 situation is similar to what it has already been in the past on several

16 occasions. Thank you.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much,

18 Mr. Jovan Simic. We wish a very swift recuperation to Mr. Prcac.

19 I should like to hear Mr. Lukic now about how we're going to

20 proceed now.

21 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, our respectful submission is that we

22 cannot accept this late compiled proffer and that we cannot base our

23 additional cross-examination of this witness on that proffer. So if the

24 Chamber needs additional explanation from us, we are ready to give them.

25 JUDGE WALD: What would you have us do, Mr. Lukic? What's your

Page 12181

1 solution?

2 MR. LUKIC: A very simple solution, Your Honour: to redact the

3 statement of this witness from that transcript.

4 JUDGE WALD: So in effect, you're saying no matter what was

5 offered you, it wouldn't be good enough at this -- because it's too late.

6 I'm just trying to define your position. Is that --

7 MR. LUKIC: That's our basic standpoint.


9 MR. LUKIC: If they provided us with all conversations,

10 statements, call it whatever you want, we might think differently. We

11 might, not necessarily that we will, that we would.

12 JUDGE WALD: Can I ask a question of Ms. Somers? Okay.

13 Ms. Somers, just to clarify the record, since we're not going to

14 be proceeding further, the proffer that you did make, does that contain

15 the substance of all conversations that were held with the witness,

16 leaving apart the weekend one? I understand that one.

17 MS. SOMERS: It's my understanding, Your Honour, that it does.

18 JUDGE WALD: And my second question, then, just, again, to clarify

19 the record, it does contain the substance of all conversations. Were

20 there, to your knowledge, any choices that had to be made between

21 inconsistent statements or -- in which case choices were made, or were all

22 substantive statements that the witness made regarding this incident

23 contained in the proffer?

24 MS. SOMERS: It is my understanding, and I'm representing this

25 based on the individuals who made the -- who did the work.

Page 12182

1 JUDGE WALD: I understand. Right. Right.

2 MS. SOMERS: All substantive matters are contained in the

3 proffer.

4 JUDGE WALD: Nothing is left out, to your -- I understand.

5 MS. SOMERS: To my knowledge, yes, correct, nothing is left out,

6 Your Honour.

7 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

8 MS. SOMERS: That would not be subject to the considerations that

9 we --

10 JUDGE WALD: Well, I understand that if it didn't relate to the

11 incident, if it related to something else. Okay. Thank you.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have a question for

13 Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic, for the purposes of your decision, are you aware of

14 the difference between the cross-examination of a witness and the

15 rejoinder? Do you have that distinction clear in your mind? When I say

16 the rejoinder, I'm referring to your presentation of evidence. Because we

17 are now at the stage of the rebuttal of the Prosecutor. As you know, you

18 still have the rejoinder. You still have one more opportunity to call

19 evidence.

20 Do you have that distinction clear in your mind?

21 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I hope that I do, that I do have this

22 distinction in my mind. But still, we would like to have rebuttal done

23 according to the rules. So we would like not to participate in the

24 rejoinder. If we have to, we'll certainly use that opportunity, but

25 still, we think that the whole testimony of this witness is spoiled by

Page 12183

1 procedural and substantial mistakes made by the Prosecution.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There is one more question that

3 I would like to ask you. In view of the clarification which was provided

4 by Ms. Somers in response to a question asked by Judge Wald, do you still

5 stand by your position? Do you still abide by what you have said?

6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, definitely, I do.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. The Chamber will

8 therefore render its ruling.

9 Having heard the discussion which is on the record of today's

10 hearing, one part of which was in public session and one in private

11 session, the Chamber believes that the document -- I'm sorry to interrupt

12 the ruling, but I have to identify the document.

13 Ms. Somers, do you have any position concerning this document,

14 whether it should be admitted into evidence, tendered into evidence or

15 not?

16 MS. SOMERS: It should not, Your Honour. It should not.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. It would be in the

18 interests of the Chamber to have this document admitted only for the

19 purposes of showing what the Prosecutor has disclosed to the Defence; that

20 is to say, the document will not constitute evidence, but it will be

21 admitted into the record only for the purposes of information, so that we

22 know exactly what it was that was disclosed to the Defence.

23 What is going to be the number of this document, Madam Registrar?

24 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, it will be 3/304.

25 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour?

Page 12184

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Somers.

2 MS. SOMERS: I just wanted -- before the Chamber proceeds, I just

3 wanted to make it a point on the record that the Prosecution has the

4 witness available and has at all times this afternoon been willing to

5 present the witness, just so that it is a matter of record. Thank you

6 very much.

7 JUDGE WALD: Can I ask one last question --

8 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE WALD: -- since we're all making a record here. In the

10 proffer that you have given us, are the various paragraphs or various

11 pieces of information there, are they, to your knowledge, excerpted

12 verbatim or close to verbatim from where they appeared in original notes,

13 or is it a composite, rewritten composite?

14 MS. SOMERS: My understanding, Your Honour, it is a composite.

15 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that Mr. Lukic is on his

17 feet again.

18 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, for interrupting again, but

19 can the Prosecution provide us with the date of compilation, so the date

20 of composition of this document, please.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers?

22 MS. SOMERS: The redaction that is at issue was today. The

23 redaction was today from previous records made by the investigator.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Does that satisfy your answer,

25 Mr. Lukic?

Page 12185

1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, thank you.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE RIAD: [Previous translation continues]...

4 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, there was never a statement, there were

5 just --

6 JUDGE RIAD: There are no verbatims, no proper verbatims?

7 MS. SOMERS: No, just -- excuse me, Your Honour. Just notes, Your

8 Honour, just notes.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, thank you very much.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The said document, as I have

11 indicated, will be admitted into evidence and marked with 3/304. It will

12 be admitted into evidence under seal and only for the purposes of

13 supporting the information which has been disclosed by the Prosecutor to

14 the Defence counsel of Mr. Kvocka.

15 The Chamber will finally render its decision.

16 Having analysed the document and having heard the arguments of the

17 parties which is reflected on the record of the hearing, the Chamber

18 believes that the document 3/304, which was presented by the Prosecutor,

19 contains all of the information that the Defence might wish to request in

20 order to cross-examine the Witness AW who, at this point in time, is

21 available so that the Defence may and can continue the cross-examination

22 of this witness following the information that has been disclosed by the

23 Prosecutor.

24 The Chamber is not obliged to consider whether the document 3/304

25 constitutes a declaration in the sense of Rule 66 of the Rules of

Page 12186

1 Procedure and Evidence since it has already been disclosed to the Defence.

2 However, it seems obvious to us that there is nothing additional that

3 might be disclosed, and it would not fall under the provisions of Rule

4 70(A) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence and which could be the

5 subject of an order by the Chamber consequently.

6 The request which was made by Defence counsel for the accused

7 Mr. Kvocka is hereby rejected.

8 You have just heard the ruling of the Chamber concerning the issue

9 that was brought up. Therefore, there is no need to recall the witness,

10 and we will adjourn for the day, which means that we will reconvene for

11 the rejoinder of the Defence on the date -- no, I'm sorry. We will

12 reconvene on Friday, on Friday.

13 Ms. Somers, I see you on your feet again?

14 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry for the interruption, Your Honour. I'm

15 looking at line 55 of the transcript, and I wanted to be sure that the

16 translation reflected what Your Honour said, and I find it a bit confusing

17 in translation. Perhaps it was translated and it wasn't clear about the

18 70 reference.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that the line should

20 read [In English]: "Would not fall and the provisions of Rule 70..."

21 [Interpretation] Is that enough for you, Ms. Susan Somers?

22 MS. SOMERS: I'm just going back to it.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I will explain. The decision

24 has been rendered. We have the original version of the decision in

25 French, but let me just say that the idea is as follows: What the

Page 12187

1 Prosecutor is able to disclose, it has been disclosed. In the document --

2 the document contained some notes, but there was also information and that

3 information has been disclosed to the Prosecutor. What remains are the

4 notes and comments given by the investigator, and that falls -- that

5 portion falls under the provisions of Rule 70, and for that reason, the

6 Chamber cannot order the disclosure. What the Chamber is able to order

7 concerns the information itself.

8 However, we are not going to discuss whether this document

9 constitutes or not a declaration in the sense of the Rule 66, because that

10 has already been disclosed, and there's no point in discussing the

11 disclosure any more. That portion of the document has been disclosed.

12 What remains are the notes and comments of the investigator and that part

13 of the document cannot be the subject of the Trial Chamber's rule -- the

14 Trial Chamber's order for disclosure, because that portion falls under the

15 ambit of Rule 70.

16 Am I clear now, Ms. Somers?

17 MS. SOMERS: Your explanation did clear it up.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

19 Yes, Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. LUKIC: I just wanted to inquire whether Your Honours would

21 render this decision in written form or it will stay just oral decision.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It is a simple oral decision,

23 and you have just heard the final version of the decision. For the

24 purposes that you wish to consider, including filing of an appeal, for

25 that purpose, the time limit's -- the deadline starts to run from now.

Page 12188













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 12189

1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, it seems to me that

3 you had an intention to take the floor.

4 MS. SOMERS: No. It seems to me that Your Honour has cleared it

5 up. As we mentioned yesterday, the entire issue was a Rule 70 issue and

6 what was done by us was specific to this particular case under the

7 circumstances. Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Let me just repeat

9 that we will reconvene on Friday at 9.20. I'm sorry, at 10.00, at 10.00.

10 My attention has been drawn to the fact that we will reconvene on Friday

11 at 10.00.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.33 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Friday, the 1st day of

14 June, 2001, at 10.00 a.m.