Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1511

 1                           Monday, 6 December 2004

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at commence 2.18 p.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, good afternoon.

 6             Mr. Nicholls.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours, if perhaps just

 8     before the witness comes in I think we've resolved the questions about

 9     the web site and the photo and provided that information this morning to

10     the Defence.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you for that.

12             Is there anything further you want to put on that Mr. Guy-Smith?

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No, Your Honour, none whatsoever.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Before the witness comes in the Chamber has

15     received the submissions of the Prosecution in response to Mr. Topolski's

16     submission about proofing.  Is it convenient at this moment for you to

17     make any brief comments by way of reply, Mr. Topolski?

18             MR. TOPOLSKI:  The only comment I would wish to make is we have

19     responded in writing and filed that within the last hour.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  It may not surprise you to learn we haven't yet

21     received it.

22             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I'm sorry if the Court wasn't anticipating that we

23     would do that, but the response that came from the Prosecution was so

24     interesting we felt we had to respond to it in writing and we did so.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, I'm grateful for that.  It means that we

Page 1512

 1     will need to await with heightened interest the arrival of the

 2     submissions before coming to a decision in the matter.

 3             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honours, if Your Honours would deal with it

 4     in that way, we would be very grateful.  We have tentatively suggested

 5     that there might be thought given to finding some room for oral argument

 6     in relation to the matter.  An estimate, I think, of some 30 minutes is

 7     tentatively suggested.  It seems to be a little over necessary for me.  I

 8     would have thought --

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  The idea of oral argument itself seems a little --

10             MR. TOPOLSKI:  It may well be.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  -- unnecessary to me, given the written

12     submissions.

13             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I would have thought so.  What I'm simply doing is

14     alerting you to the fact it is there, but I don't press that.  It seems

15     to me the issue is sufficiently joined in the two documents that you

16     will, I hope, shortly have.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Topolski.

18             That being so, we should have the witness in.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon, Mr. (redacted).

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  If I could remind you of the affirmation you took

23     at the commencement of your evidence which still applies.  Now Mr.

24     Guy-Smith was asking you questions, and he'll continue now.

25                           WITNESS:  (REDACTED) [Resumed]

Page 1513

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           Cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith: [Continued]

 3        Q.   Good afternoon.

 4        A.   Good afternoon.

 5        Q.   How are you?

 6        A.   I'm fine.

 7        Q.   Good.  We last were discussing your decision to have a meeting

 8     with and an interview with Mr. Lehtinen.  Do you remember that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And it's my understanding that in fact you did meet with Mr.

11     Lehtinen some time in January of 2003.  Correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   That meeting was I believe at your home, wasn't it?

14        A.   No.  It was in a hotel.

15        Q.   Before you met with Mr. Lehtinen, your father met with him.

16     Correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And if I'm not mistaken, your father met with Mr. Lehtinen for

19     two days, didn't he?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And after his meeting with Mr. Lehtinen the first day, he came

22     home and you discussed with him his feelings about meeting with Mr.

23     Lehtinen.  Correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   I understand that to be true for the second day also.  Correct?

Page 1514

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And after you had an opportunity to discuss with your father his

 3     meeting with Mr. Lehtinen, you had a meeting with him for two days.

 4     True?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   That meeting was once again at the hotel.  Correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, when you had the meeting with Mr. Lehtinen at the hotel, you

 9     had no difficulty understanding him, did you?

10        A.   We did have an interpreter.

11        Q.   You did?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did you have any difficulty with the interpreter?

14        A.   No, we did not.

15        Q.   And just so we're sure, for -- I want to take this day by day.

16     The first day the interpreter that you used you were satisfied with in

17     all respects.  Correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You didn't find it necessary to ever correct that interpreter

20     while you were speaking with Mr. Lehtinen about your experiences?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You did find it necessary?

23        A.   Some words.

24        Q.   Were those minor words or --

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1515

 1        Q.   As you sit here today could you tell us, if you remember, any of

 2     the areas in which you corrected the interpretation that was occurring

 3     the first day that you spoke with Mr. Lehtinen.

 4        A.   I don't remember.

 5        Q.   The second day, once again I take it that particular interview,

 6     the one that you had with Mr. Lehtinen, once again that was an interview

 7     that occurred through an interpreter?

 8        A.   No.  The second day I was there on my own.

 9        Q.   When you were there on your own the second day, I take it that

10     neither you nor Mr. Lehtinen had any difficulty understanding each other

11     during the interview process.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not --

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Can we go into private session for a moment,

15     please, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Private session.

17                           [Private session]

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 1516










11  Pages 1516-1520 redacted. Private session.















Page 1521

 1  (redacted)

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 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:

21        Q.   So with regard to the issue of the subject matters that you

22     discussed with Mr. Lehtinen, for example there was a subject matter

23     concerning you being on the bus before it was stopped.  Correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   There was a subject matter concerning the actual stop of the bus.

Page 1522

 1     True?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   There was a subject matter about what occurred after you got off

 4     of the bus, while you were waiting.  Correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And then you discussed as a subject matter the drive to the area

 7     that's been called the schoolhouse.  True?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   What happened at the schoolhouse would have been another subject

10     matter.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now, those are matters -- and I know there are more matters that

13     you discussed with him in terms of subject, but those matters that you

14     discussed with him, those that I just mentioned thus far, those are

15     matters that you discussed with him on both days.  Correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Before you began to discuss the actual facts as you related them

18     to Mr. Lehtinen, he discussed with you the importance of paying attention

19     to detail, did he not?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you agreed with him that you would supply him with as much

22     detail as you could.  True?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   He also discussed with you at that time, before you began your

25     actual recounting of the events, how important it was to be accurate.

Page 1523

 1     Correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  He said that we should be as accurate as possible.

 3        Q.   And of course in terms of being accurate, also that you should be

 4     truthful.  Correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And.  I know that when you started your testimony here today you

 7     took an oath.  Do you remember that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And at the time you took the oath you swore to tell the truth,

10     the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  Correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And when you were speaking with Mr. Lehtinen you had that same

13     idea in mind, didn't you, because of the importance of being accurate,

14     the importance of paying attention to detail?  As you were speaking with

15     him you were telling him the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

16     truth, weren't you?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   It makes sense to me.

19             Now, Mr. Lehtinen told you of course that in the event that there

20     were any corrections to the statement that you needed to make, that you

21     had an opportunity to do that, didn't you?

22        A.   I don't remember that, but he may have said that.  It was a long

23     time ago.

24        Q.   I understand.  He did indicate to you as you were in the process

25     of this interview and making the statement that you would get an

Page 1524

 1     opportunity to review what you'd said to him on January 10th and 11th.

 2     Correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you were aware of the fact that when you were making this

 5     statement with Mr. Lehtinen that it was going to somehow be memorialised?

 6     It was either going to be written down or it was going to come back to

 7     you in the form of a printout from a computer?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And he impressed upon you the importance of you being able to

10     review the statement and make any corrections.  Right?

11        A.   I don't remember.

12        Q.   Do you remember he told you that, in case you reviewed the

13     statement and you needed to make any modifications, that you'd have the

14     opportunity to do that?

15        A.   I don't remember saying this to me.

16        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember whether or not he indicated to you that

17     after reviewing the statement if you felt there was a need to add

18     anything because you left anything out that you'd get the opportunity to

19     do that?  That you would get an opportunity to add something to the

20     statement you gave to him on January 10th and 11th?

21        A.   I don't remember.

22        Q.   And the last question with regard to his offer to you would be:

23     Do you remember whether he said that in the event there was information

24     that was incorrect in the statement, that perhaps he had misunderstood

25     something you said, that you would have the opportunity to delete, take

Page 1525

 1     out of the statement, information that was incorrect?

 2        A.   No, I don't.  He may have said it, though.

 3        Q.   As you said, this was some time ago.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Your memory concerning those events is not as good as what

 6     happened back then.  Right?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   When you say "no," I'm referring to the time you were meeting

 9     with Mr. Lehtinen and making a statement.

10        A.   I remember the statement, but I don't remember the details.

11        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember at the conclusion of your interview on the

12     11th with Mr. Lehtinen that you had an opportunity to review the

13     statement?  Do you remember doing that?

14        A.   No.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Your Honours, I believe that I have --

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Private session.

17                           [Private session]

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 1526










11  Page 1526 redacted. Private session.















Page 1527










11  Page 1527 redacted. Private session.















Page 1528

 1  (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 4        Q.   -- for the balance of that year, did you have occasion to get

 5     ahold of Mr. Lehtinen to talk to him about your statement?

 6        A.   No.  I was not in touch with him.

 7        Q.   Did he leave you a copy of your statement when you two parted

 8     company in January of 2003?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   When he left you in January of 2003 you were fully satisfied, as

11     you indicated by your signature and your attestation, that the

12     information contained in the statement that you made to Mr. Lehtinen was

13     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  Correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   During the balance of the year 2003, were you still going to

16, still searching the net with regard to matters that were of

17     interest to you about Kosovo?

18        A.   Yes, occasionally.

19        Q.   And when you say "yes, occasionally," was that with the same kind

20     of frequency we discussed before, maybe two or three times a week?

21        A.   Maybe not that often.

22        Q.   Once a week?  Twice a week?  Once or twice a week?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Okay.  And during that period of time for the balance of 2003,

25     did you come across any information that you found of interest during

Page 1529

 1     that time in the way that we discussed last on Friday, information that

 2     you would then discuss with some member of your family?

 3        A.   Mostly about torched churches.  I talked with my entire family.

 4        Q.   During the year 2003, for the balance of that year, from January

 5     to December that would be, did you discuss with your family matters

 6     concerning the KLA?

 7        A.   Sometimes.

 8        Q.   Did you discuss matters concerning Albanian soldiers?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   How often?

11        A.   Once or twice a week, maybe not often as that.

12        Q.   Apart from discussing these matters with your family, and by that

13     I mean your brother, your mother, and of course your father, did you have

14     discussions with anyone else?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   We now are in the year 2004.  And quickly, for the year 2004 --

17     quickly, for the year 2004 with regard to your use of the computer, I

18     take it that your answers with regard to the use of the computer would

19     once again be about the same:  You were on the computer about once or

20     twice a week.  Correct?

21        A.   Yes, on the Internet.  I use my computer every day.

22        Q.   I understand.  My question is with regard to matters concerning

23     Kosovo and your interest in matters concerning Kosovo.  You once again

24     were doing the same thing you had been doing before which is something

25     you checked in on because it was something of interest to you?

Page 1530

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Were you at that time looking at the site that you've mentioned

 3     to us before, that's

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And what other sites were looking at with regard to matters of

 6     concern to you as they related to Kosovo during the year 2004?

 7        A.   Well, mostly Novosti, B92, the TV information from Serbia.

 8        Q.   Between January 2004 and June 2004, for that particular six-month

 9     period of time, do you recall as you sit here today any information that

10     you found to be noteworthy that you discussed with your father, once

11     again about matters concerning Kosovo?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Would the same be true for your mother and for your brother?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And between January 2004 and June 2004, did you have

16     conversations with Mr. Lehtinen concerning your availability for trial?

17        A.   No.  They talked to my mother afterwards, and it was only then

18     that they called us.

19        Q.   And when you say they talked to your mother, I take it what you

20     mean is your mother got a telephone call from somebody at the ICTY and

21     then she called you.  Correct?

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, if I may, sorry to interrupt.  I'm

23     not objecting, but I would like to ask my friend to be careful.  The

24     precise matters and logistics of the ways in which various witnesses in

25     all cases come to travel here and come to be here is I think something

Page 1531

 1     completely irrelevant and not proper for cross-examination.  So the

 2     contacts are fine but I don't think we should get into the specifics of

 3     how these things are dealt with.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  To assure the Court and counsel I have absolutely

 5     no interest whatsoever in that area.

 6        Q.   Do you have my question in mind?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And after speaking with your mother, did you have contact with

 9     Mr. Lehtinen, you personally have contact with Mr. Lehtinen, over the

10     phone?

11        A.   No, not me personally.  My father did.

12        Q.   So all the contacts that occurred with regard to communications

13     between Mr. Lehtinen and your family are conversations that were had

14     between your father or your mother and Mr. Lehtinen or other members of

15     the ICTY to the best of your knowledge.  Correct?  And by that I'm

16     referring to the time period of January to June of 2004.

17        A.   No.  Before that, from January until June we did not talk to

18     them.  Later they talked to my mother in Belgrade.  This was sometime in

19     September, I think.

20        Q.   When you heard about the possibility or the inevitability of

21     testifying in this matter, I take it your mind went back not only to the

22     events but also to the statement you had made to Mr. Lehtinen.  Correct?

23        A.   I only thought about the event.

24        Q.   You were comfortable with your statement, were you not, in

25     September of 2004?

Page 1532

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   As I understand it - and do correct me if I'm wrong - there was

 3     some brief contact that you had with Mr. Lehtinen in October.  True?

 4        A.   Me or my father?

 5        Q.   Well, I'm gathering from your answer it must have been your

 6     father and not you.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   What would happen is your father would have conversation or some

 9     kind of conversation with Mr. Lehtinen and then he would tell you what

10     was being said and what was being thought of.  Correct?

11        A.   Yes, because I'm never at home.

12        Q.   And during November, did you have any contact with Mr. Lehtinen

13     or was that once again your father?

14        A.   No, not me.  The only conversation I had was with the relevant

15     authorities from the Tribunal.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, I am not interested at all in any information

17     concerning how you were going to get from wherever you were to here.

18     What I am interested in is if during that period of time when you said

19     you had conversation with relevant authorities at the Tribunal you

20     discussed with them any aspects of your testimony, what you were going to

21     say in this room before you arrived.

22        A.   No such questions were ever asked of us.  We were simply told who

23     would be interviewing us and that we should be sincere.

24        Q.   Well, you were told more than you should be sincere, were you

25     not, sir?  You were told, once again, you should be absolutely honest?

Page 1533

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   That of course caused you no difficulty, because that's a

 3     position you've maintained consistently since the very first time you've

 4     talked to anybody.  Correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You have had before you came to court today at least five

 7     separate and distinct proofing sessions with the Prosecution, have you

 8     not, sir?

 9        A.   Approximately, yes.

10        Q.   Have I failed in the number?  Have there been more?

11        A.   No.  I think there were fewer.

12        Q.   Okay.  In your proofing sessions - and I wish to speak about the

13     very first proofing session that you had - do you remember that, do you

14     remember when that was?

15        A.   The day after we arrived here.

16        Q.   I'm going to give you a date, and that date is Saturday -- that's

17     a day, actually.  November -- I believe it's 27th of November.  Does that

18     refresh your recollection as to the first proofing session?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, in that particular session were you given a copy of your

21     statement to review?  That's the statement that you had signed on January

22     11th.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And when you were given that statement, were you by yourself or

25     were you with your father as you had been in the past?

Page 1534

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Excuse me, what does "as you had been in the past"

 2     mean here.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  I think the question might be asked first without

 4     that addition, Mr. Guy-Smith.  If you want to add it as a separate

 5     question, well, you can pursue it.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Do you have my question in mind?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   In the first proofing session, were you by yourself?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   How long was that session, if you can recall?

12        A.   Approximately two to three hours.

13        Q.   Your second proofing session, do you remember when that was?

14        A.   Yes, the day after.

15        Q.   And how long was that session?

16        A.   Approximately two hours.

17        Q.   Now, in that session -- I'm sorry, in those first two sessions,

18     do you recall when you were talking about the time you were at the hotel

19     with Mr. Lehtinen and your comfort level, that you were comfortable?  Do

20     you remember that?

21        A.   The first day Mr. Lehtinen was not at the hotel.  We met him only

22     here at the Tribunal.

23        Q.   When you were here at the Tribunal, your meeting for your first

24     proofing session, I take it that was a comfortable time?  And by that I

25     mean, once again understanding that the subject matter was difficult for

Page 1535

 1     you, that you were not under any other stressors, were you?

 2        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 3        Q.   You got to drink some coffee and eat some food and chat with

 4     these gentlemen?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And the gentlemen you chatted with are some of the gentlemen who

 7     are sitting across from me at the bench of the Prosecution.  Correct?

 8     And you can look over there and see if you recognise any of them; that's

 9     an okay thing to do.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   In the first proofing session that you were involved in, did you

12     correct your statement in any fashion, the statement you made to Mr.

13     Lehtinen?

14        A.   Yes, some minor things.

15        Q.   I see.  And when you say "some minor things," did that deal with

16     the information that you had given to Mr. Lehtinen about your experiences

17     at the camp?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Without telling us for the moment what those minor things were,

20     could you recall for us as you sit here today how many minor corrections

21     you made.

22        A.   Those were mostly words such as -- things such as whether

23     somebody wore a beret or not.  I may have made a mistake on two or three

24     occasions.

25        Q.   Was the manner in which you spoke with the gentleman in the first

Page 1536

 1     proofing session different from the way you spoke with Mr. Lehtinen when

 2     you were discussing subject matters?

 3        A.   Well, they just wanted to know whether they could read my

 4     statement or whether there should be any corrections to make in case I

 5     had made a mistake before.

 6        Q.   Well, you had an opportunity to do that once before, had you not,

 7     sir?  That was on January 11th.  Mr. Lehtinen gave you that opportunity

 8     to review your statement.  Right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Which is something that you did?

11        A.   I probably did.

12        Q.   As we've discussed earlier, we know that you did.

13        A.   Fine, I did.

14        Q.   And at that time some -- it would be approximately 11 months ago,

15     you found no need to make any corrections.

16        A.   No, I was not thinking about that.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm sorry, Mr. Guy-Smith.  The 11 months has

18     caught my attention.  That seems to be quite wrong, doesn't it.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You know, part of the reason I know I'm a lawyer

20     and not a scientist is often times my additions are incorrect.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  I think it's nearer two years than one year.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think you're absolutely right, Your Honour.  My

23     grandfather would be exceedingly disappointed in me, I know that, since

24     he taught me my science.  And I thank you for the correction.

25        Q.   With that correction in mind, which is in fact important, for

Page 1537

 1     some two years your statement had stood as an accurate and viable

 2     document concerning your memories of what had occurred in 1998.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You mentioned that in your first proofing session after you read

 5     your statement you made some corrections to some minor details.  For

 6     example, words such as the word "beret."  You gave that as one example.

 7     Could you tell us once again how many other and at this point what I'm

 8     looking for is the number of minor corrections that you made in that

 9     first proofing session.

10        A.   Three or four times, not more than that.

11        Q.   In your second proofing session -- I'm sorry.  I do apologise.

12     After you made these three or four minor corrections in the first

13     proofing session, did you then tell these gentlemen that you were

14     speaking to that apart from these three or four minor details, everything

15     else was correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And certainly, after having now had an opportunity to review your

18     statement on two separate occasions, you clearly were satisfied that it

19     was a complete and accurate recitation of your memory and the events.

20     True?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   There was no need for any further additions.

23        A.   No, there was no need.

24        Q.   In the second proofing session that you had, I take it that at

25     that point you were discussing the manner in which you would testify, as

Page 1538

 1     opposed to the facts about which you would testify.  Is that true?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   During that time, the second proofing session, did you discuss

 4     how the courtroom was set up and what the various functions were of the

 5     various individuals in the courtroom?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thereafter you had a number of proofing sessions with Mr.

 8     Nicholls, did you not?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You just looked over there, and I think you recognise Mr.

11     Nicholls, don't you?

12             And the first time you spoke with Mr. Nicholls was a few days

13     after your second proofing session.  Correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And how long was that?

16        A.   About an hour and a half.

17        Q.   You met with him the next day.  Correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And how long was that session?

20        A.   About an hour.

21        Q.   And then you met with him one more time after that, which was the

22     day after.  Correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   That session was how long?

25        A.   About an hour, perhaps less than that.

Page 1539

 1        Q.   Now, in each of these sessions with Mr. Nicholls, you at that

 2     time discussed with him your testimony, and by that I mean the

 3     anticipated testimony you would be giving here at this trial.  Correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You no longer were involved in the generalities of the subject

 6     matters then, were you?  You were now being asked specific questions.

 7        A.   Yes, concerning my statement.

 8        Q.   And the specific questions that you were asked you were to give

 9     specific answers to.  Correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   During that period of time when you were involved in this process

12     with Mr. Nicholls where he was posing questions to you for which you were

13     to give him answers, you did not feel the need to correct your statement,

14     did you?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   And I think it would be fair to say that from those three

17     proofing sessions that you had with Mr. Nicholls you made no additions to

18     Mr. Nicholls with regard to your statement.  Correct?

19        A.   I think we did make one or two additions.

20        Q.   As you sit here today you say you made "one or two additions."

21     And your language is that -- your answer is:  "I think we did make one or

22     two additions."

23             What are the one or two additions you worked out in concert with

24     Mr. Nicholls?

25        A.   Well, these were some minor mistakes that I had made when the

Page 1540

 1     first statement was given that I did not remember at the time.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Now, were these minor mistakes that are once again

 3     different from the mistakes which were minor mistakes that you made which

 4     you had corrected but a few days before?

 5        A.   Of the same kind.

 6        Q.   And by that you were referring to words that were contained in

 7     the statement.  Correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You didn't then add other information that you had never

10     discussed before, did you?

11        A.   Only regarding the Internet.

12        Q.   Uh-huh.

13             Which session was that in, the first, the second, or the third

14     proofing session with Mr. Nicholls?

15        A.   We began during the second session.  And then just before I came

16     here we continued.

17        Q.   So this was a discussion in process, was it?  This was something

18     that was being developed between the second and third proofing sessions?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   When you first -- when you first spoke with Mr. Lehtinen, as we

21     have discussed briefly, you mentioned to him subject matters.  And we've

22     discussed a couple of the subject matters that you've mentioned with him.

23     And I would like to expand on that list of subject matters, if I could,

24     and see whether or not you agree that these were further subject matters

25     that you discussed with the investigator Mr. Lehtinen.  This is on

Page 1541

 1     January 10th and 11th, 2003.  Okay?

 2        A.   Okay.

 3        Q.   We'd mentioned your travels on the bus, the stop; you getting off

 4     the bus, waiting; the drive to the schoolhouse, what happened at the

 5     schoolhouse.  Thereafter as a subject matter you discussed the drive to

 6     the place where you ultimately stayed for some days.  Correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And when I say "the place," as a matter of fact you agreed with

 9     Mr. Lehtinen to call that place a camp.  That was an agreement that you

10     and Mr. Lehtinen had with each other during your interview on the 10th

11     and the 11th of January.  Right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And there was a discussion that you had -- a subject-matter

14     discussion that you had with regard to what happened while you were in

15     that place that you agreed to call a camp, and by that I mean where you

16     went when you first got there.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Then your experiences in an area that you've called a basement.

19     Right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Your leaving the basement and going to -- back to I believe it is

22     the house where you stayed for a couple of days.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Your recording of a statement that you made just before you left.

25     Right?

Page 1542












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1543

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And then ultimately your leaving that area, your leaving the

 3     place that you called the camp.  Right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you think that's a fair list of the areas that you covered in

 6     your interview for two days with Mr. Lehtinen?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   I'm going to want to spend some time with you in those areas.

 9     Okay?

10             While you were on the bus travelling, before you were stopped, do

11     you recall whether you saw anybody who you thought might be a KLA soldier

12     on your journey?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you recall how many of those people you saw?

15        A.   Just one.

16        Q.   When you say "just one," as you sit here right now you're sure

17     about that; right?  It was just one and that was the one you testified to

18     I believe it was on Friday, that you just saw one?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you have your statement in front of you, sir?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   I'd like you to direct your attention to page 3, and I'd like you

23     to take a look at the first, second, the third -- it's the third

24     paragraph.  It's the very last section where you say:  "After some one

25     hour ... "

Page 1544

 1             Do you see that?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   And there you indicate you'd seen a number of soldiers.  Correct?

 4        A.   I only saw one.  I don't know how many of them the other

 5     passengers saw as we passed.

 6        Q.   So we're clear and I want to make sure we're on the same page and

 7     we're communicating with each other here.  You said:  "After some one

 8     hour of driving with the police officer we could see soldiers in the

 9     bushes beside the road."

10             Now, when you say "we could see soldiers," I take it you're

11     referring to yourself and others, correct?  That would be the use of the

12     word "we."  Right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And when you saw -- when you were speaking with Investigator

15     Lehtinen, this is a language that you used.  Correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   He didn't put this -- these words in your mouth now, did he?

18     When he was typing this up --

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   -- he didn't try to sneak something by you, did he?

21        A.   No, he did not.

22        Q.   What you do remember -- it's fair to say that you were pretty

23     scared during that time?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And by that I mean not necessarily the first period of time but

Page 1545

 1     certainly by the time the bus is stopped you have a bit of fright about

 2     you; I'm sure you do.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And during that period of time when the bus was stopped, you were

 5     so scared about what happened -- I'm sorry, what was happening to you

 6     right then that you weren't paying a lot of attention to what was going

 7     on now, were you?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And as a matter of fact, that's what you told Mr. Lehtinen, that

10     you were so scared at that point in time that you couldn't give him any

11     details about what had occurred.  Right?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Your Honours, I'm not sure what time we're going

14     to be --

15             JUDGE PARKER:  I was heading for five minutes from now, if that's

16     convenient.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Five minutes from now is as convenient as --

18     whenever you want me to stop.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:

21        Q.   Now, after the bus was stopped and you got off the bus and you

22     weren't remembering the details, the last thing that you remember -- I'm

23     sorry, not the last thing, but one of the last things I'm sure you

24     remember, and it must have been a hard thing for you, was that your

25     mother was crying on the bus.  Correct?

Page 1546

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, you told us here that you saw soldiers training a rifle on

 3     your mother's back.  Do you remember that?

 4        A.   Yes, they did train their rifle -- rifles on her.

 5        Q.   And that's something that obviously is a pretty important event

 6     in your mind, isn't it?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you recall that when you spoke to Mr. Lehtinen that you didn't

 9     mention this at all?

10        A.   I don't remember.  I don't remember whether I did mention that to

11     anyone or not.

12        Q.   Okay.  Well, if you could, please, if you could take a look at

13     your statement.  And I'm referring you to page 4 now.  At the top of the

14     page that's U0032179.  It's going to be in the first paragraph.  You

15     said:  "I remember hearing my mother crying in the bus and the soldiers

16     arguing about something with the driver, but then I heard the bus

17     leaving."

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   My question to you is:  You didn't tell Mr. Lehtinen about this.

20     Correct?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   And I take it this is also something that you didn't tell Mr.

23     Nicholls about, did you?

24        A.   No, I did not.

25        Q.   And you recall that you told us that the driver had gotten off

Page 1547

 1     the bus.  Do you remember telling us that?

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm referring Court and counsel to page 72 I

 3     believe it is, and this would have been on Thursday.

 4        Q.   I think you told us that with regard to this whole incident --

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Page 72, line 23.

 6        Q.   In response to the following question, "After you were ordered

 7     off the bus, the four of you, what happened with the bus?"

 8             "A.  The driver got off.  In fact, he returned to the bus because

 9     he had gotten off when we did.  And they told him to continue, to go on."

10             That isn't information you told Mr. Lehtinen either, is it?

11        A.   What do you mean?

12        Q.   That you saw the driver get off the bus.

13        A.   Yes, he got off the bus together with us, he spoke to them, and

14     then boarded the bus again.

15        Q.   I understand your testimony here right now and I understand your

16     testimony of the other day, but that's not my question.  My question to

17     you is:  On January 10th and 11th, you didn't tell this to Mr. Lehtinen,

18     did you?  You didn't tell him this particular detail of what had

19     occurred.

20        A.   I must have not remembered that.  It must have slipped my mind.

21        Q.   Okay.  When you went to the proofing session and you had an

22     opportunity to review your statement and you corrected the minor details

23     as you have told us about, once again you didn't mention that to anybody

24     now, did you?

25        A.   Well, I didn't think it was such an important detail.  I wasn't

Page 1548

 1     really giving it much thought.

 2        Q.   I see.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Is that a convenient time, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, this is a fine time.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Guy-Smith, we will plan the next break

 9     somewhere in the order of 25 past 5.00, if that will help.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you very much.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Although you may not need all that time, perhaps.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Hopefully I can put a bit of spring in my step.

13             MR. MANSFIELD:  Or I will.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It's very dangerous having three of my colleagues

15     sitting behind me at this juncture.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Don't forget they're friends.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:

18        Q.   When you spoke with Mr. Lehtinen, do you recall telling him about

19     a conversation that your father had while you were waiting for the Golf

20     car to return?

21        A.   I think I did, yes.

22        Q.   And did you recall telling Mr. Lehtinen that that conversation

23     was in one language, not in two?  And by that I mean there was -- you

24     discussed with Mr. Lehtinen that your father spoke with somebody in

25     Slovenian, a language that you did not understand.

Page 1549

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You told us that your father spoke in two languages, both in

 3     Serbian and in Slovenian.  Correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And would it be fair to say that that once again is those kinds

 6     of details that you've told us is not important, and it is for that

 7     matter that it was not mentioned before?

 8        A.   That's possible.

 9        Q.   Well, when you say "that's possible," once again, you had an

10     opportunity to review the statement that you made to Mr. Lehtinen.

11     Correct?

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I just ask where counsel is referring to when

13     he says --

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.  Page 4.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Where does it say that he spoke in one language.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If you go to the one, two, three, four -- the

17     fourth paragraph it says:  "I recall my father talking to the soldier in

18     Slovenian, which I didn't understand."

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  That's all you're referring to.  Thank you.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:

21        Q.   With regard to the questions I asked you previously in terms of

22     correcting your statement, here's an example of where, again, you failed

23     to add information when you were at your proofing sessions with regard to

24     your statement.  Correct?

25        A.   Yes, that is correct.

Page 1550

 1        Q.   And the reason that you did that, so that we're perfectly clear,

 2     is because you made a determination that that was not an important

 3     detail.  Correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Fair enough.  Do you recall in your testimony that you have

 6     indicated that you saw Mr. Genov being beaten with automatic rifles,

 7     sharp objects, whatever was at hand?  Do you recall that testimony?

 8        A.   Yes.  In the school.

 9        Q.   That was the school.  Correct?

10        A.   Yes, the first time.

11        Q.   And once again, that's not information that you gave to Mr.

12     Lehtinen, is it, back in January of 2003?  You didn't tell him that.

13        A.   I don't remember.

14        Q.   Okay.  Well, you have your statement there in front of you, sir.

15        A.   I do.

16        Q.   Okay.  If you would take a look at page 5 in the first paragraph

17     you discussed that -- the beating of Genov.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And in that paragraph you do not indicate that he was beaten in

20     the manner that you have told us about.  Correct?

21        A.   No, but he was beaten.  I didn't indicate with what specifically

22     he was beaten, but the fact is that he was beaten.

23        Q.   I understand that, but my question once again is a little bit

24     different.  Now, this is, again, a detail.  It's a piece of information

25     that you previously have not discussed with anybody.  Correct?

Page 1551

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And I take it that this particular detail, like the other details

 3     that we've talked about thus far, once again in your estimation, as you

 4     were giving various members of the ICTY information concerning your

 5     observations you determined was a minor detail and was not important?

 6        A.   I didn't think about that.  I didn't realise whether it was

 7     important or not.  At any rate, I wasn't thinking about that at that

 8     moment.

 9        Q.   When you say you weren't thinking about that at that moment, I

10     take it what you mean is you weren't thinking about how Genov was beaten

11     at the time that you were speaking to Mr. Lehtinen.  Correct?

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I'm going to object to the vagueness

13     of these questions, which I think mischaracterise the statement.  Maybe

14     my friend could read the first sentence of the second paragraph, which

15     describes the beating of Genov.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You may read the entirety -- excuse me, Your

17     Honour.  My point is a simple point, which is the precise manner in which

18     this occurred according to this witness during this trial is totally

19     absent from this statement, and it is that which I am driving at.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  I think that point has been very well-made.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Then I am moving on to another point.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Oh, good.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I have no desire to continue on this point

24     anymore.  The point has been made and I move on.

25        Q.   Do you recall in your meeting with Mr. Lehtinen that you were

Page 1552

 1     shown a series of photographs?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   And you were shown photographs of people who you believe that you

 4     were with while in the basement area.  Correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   One of those individuals, you told us here, was an individual who

 7     had been shot in the leg.  Correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You didn't tell that to Mr. Lehtinen, did you?

10        A.   I don't remember.  No.

11        Q.   You figured that was another minor detail.  Correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, with regard to your identification of individuals who you

14     saw at the camp, you indicated that you were a hundred per cent sure with

15     regard to a number of the people that you saw.  Right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And when you say that you were a hundred per cent sure, you don't

18     entertain the possibility of any doubt.  Correct?

19        A.   I was sure only about one person, that is that only one person

20     was there.

21        Q.   Okay.  Well, as a matter of fact, when you spoke to Mr. Lehtinen

22     you told us -- I'm sorry, you told him with regard to the pictures that

23     you were shown that you were a hundred per cent sure that a man by the

24     name of Genov was there.  Correct?

25        A.   If you're asking me about the prisoners, yes, I'm a hundred per

Page 1553

 1     cent sure that they were there.

 2        Q.   So what I'm saying is with regard to each and every one of the

 3     identifications you made, you have no doubts in your mind about those

 4     identifications.  Correct?

 5        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I can identify them.

 6        Q.   The information that you've given us here in this Tribunal

 7     concerning those individuals, which you have not told anybody about

 8     before, is information that you decided to edit out of your previous

 9     interviews.  Correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I'm -- I don't want to object, but I

12     think this line of cross is just getting a little bit absurd.  We've got

13     before today 120 pages of transcript about this witness's testimony here

14     in court, about half of that probably him speaking.  The statement is I

15     think 11 pages of text.  So I think it's a bit pointless to continue to

16     claim that every little detail in -- over two days of testimony or about

17     two days is not present in this 11-page statement.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.  It's a very fine point

19     to make in closing address.  We're not at the moment limiting Mr.

20     Guy-Smith, but I think he will have got the point of what you've put.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:

22        Q.   When you spoke to Mr. Lehtinen, you told Mr. Lehtinen that you

23     couldn't remember many details about the time in the basement, did you

24     not?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1554

 1        Q.   What you could remember was that you were scared and that the

 2     place was horrible?

 3        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 4        Q.   Now, you've told us here that you played chess with Shala.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You spent an hour at a minimum playing chess with Shala.

 7        A.   Yes.  That's what I said.

 8        Q.   That he was the only individual out of the 50 or 60 soldiers that

 9     you saw at the camp whose nickname you ever heard?

10        A.   Yes, I remembered him.

11        Q.   You never heard the nickname Murrizi?

12        A.   No, no.  I don't remember.

13        Q.   And the individual who you claim was with Shala when he came to

14     the basement door to feed you, can you describe that individual in any

15     fashion other than young?

16        A.   No.  That's all I can remember at this point.

17        Q.   When you left the basement and were in the room playing chess

18     with Shala, this was an important point in your life.  Correct?

19        A.   What do you mean an important point in my life?

20        Q.   Well, when you left the basement you initially thought that you

21     were going to be killed?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you found yourself eating, drinking, playing chess.

24        A.   Yes, that is correct.

25        Q.   Certainly memorable events because they were an indication to you

Page 1555

 1     then that you were not going to be killed?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Important details?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   You didn't tell Mr. Lehtinen about playing chess with Shala, did

 6     you?

 7        A.   I don't think I did.  If this is what is stated in the statement,

 8     then that is correct.  I don't remember.

 9        Q.   Well, you've said two things and I want to make sure that we're

10     accurate here.  You said you didn't think that you did.  I suggest you

11     take a look at the eighth page of your statement, and it would be -- it's

12     kind of the middle of the third paragraph that says:  "Then during one

13     day ... "

14             Do you have that?

15        A.   Page 7.

16        Q.   I have it on -- I'm not sure what version you're looking at at

17     this point.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  He's looking at the B/C/S version.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:

21        Q.   In that version on page 7 then, "then during one day" is where it

22     starts.  There is no mention of this chess game, is there?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   There is no mention of spending an hour with Shala face to face,

25     is there?

Page 1556

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   As a matter of fact what you say occurred in your statement -

 3     once again, if you would take a look at it - is markedly different from

 4     what you told us happened here in court, and by that I mean that when you

 5     were taken out of the basement you asked if your father could come with

 6     you and you said yes.

 7        A.   They didn't ask me right away.

 8        Q.   When you were reading your statement and you had the opportunity

 9     to correct your statement either with Mr. Lehtinen or with Mr. Nicholls,

10     you chose not to correct your statement with regard to this important

11     detail, did you?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Do you recall telling us about spending some time after you had

14     been released from the basement with an Albanian who discussed with you

15     that he was hiding because the Serbs had killed his lambs?

16        A.   I did not have any discussion with them.  It was just later that

17     they told us why he had been in hiding.

18        Q.   That was a minor detail.  Correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   That's why you didn't tell anybody about it before coming to

21     court.  Correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   When you spoke to Mr. Lehtinen you gave Mr. Lehtinen a

24     description of this man named Shala.  True?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1557

 1        Q.   And when you testified in court, you gave a relatively similar

 2     description but you left out one part, which is you told Mr. Lehtinen

 3     that Shala was "strongly built."

 4        A.   He was on the stocky side.  I don't understand quite what you

 5     mean when you say "he was strongly built."  He was stronger than me, at

 6     any rate.

 7        Q.   You say you don't understand what I said when I said "strongly

 8     built."  Is that your testimony?

 9        A.   I mean, I do understand what you say, but I don't know what the

10     difference is between what I stated in my statement and what I indicated

11     in my testimony on Friday.

12        Q.   Okay.  In your testimony on Friday, take it from me, you never

13     mentioned that he was strongly built.

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   In the statement that you made to Mr. Lehtinen, the individual

16     you describe as Shala was somebody you said was strongly built.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Strongly built is somebody who, as you've just put it, is stocky.

19     Correct?

20        A.   Yes, that is correct.

21        Q.   This man Shala who you had all these experiences with, he was a

22     strong man, wasn't he?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   A healthy man?

25        A.   Most probably, yes.

Page 1558












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Page 1559

 1        Q.   Before you came to court today -- or actually, before you came to

 2     court to testify, you were told that the people who the Prosecution

 3     believe are responsible would be in court, weren't you?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And when you were shown pictures by Mr. Lehtinen, pictures in

 6     which you were asked to identify people other than those you've called

 7     prisoners, Mr. Lehtinen asked you whether or not you recognised any of

 8     the perpetrators.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   He didn't just show you a series of pictures and say, Can you

11     pick anybody out who you might be familiar with, did he?

12        A.   No.  He said -- he asked if I recognised anyone on those

13     pictures.  There were eight pictures in total.

14        Q.   And my question is more specific, which is the language that he

15     used with you at the time he asked you to make these identifications was

16     whether you recognised any perpetrators.  He focused you in identifying

17     someone who he believed was responsible, didn't he?

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  That's --

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If he knows he can answer it, Your Honour.  If he

20     doesn't, he can reject it.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  I can tell you right now and nobody knows what's

22     in Mr. Lehtinen's mind or what Mr. Lehtinen believed.  He's answered the

23     question.  The question was put to him:  "You were asked to identify

24     people other than those you've called prisoners.  Mr. Lehtinen asked you

25     whether or not you recognised any of the perpetrators.

Page 1560

 1             "A.  Yes."

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  The tail-end of your question is the one that was

 3     the problem.  You can proceed from where you are.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm not asking if he's a psychologist, but if he

 5     has an opinion with regard to the issue -- and I'm happy to proceed, Your

 6     Honour.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Move along, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   When you were shown those pictures of individuals who Mr.

10     Lehtinen said were any of the perpetrators in this case, do you recall

11     how you were showed those pictures?  And by that I mean, was each sheet

12     handed to you individually?

13        A.   There were eight pictures on a single page.

14        Q.   Were you handed each page individually?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   When you looked at the page, at any one of the pages, what you

17     did was you compared all of the photographs on the page initially, before

18     you chose or didn't chose any of the individuals on the line-up.

19     Correct?

20        A.   No.  I made it -- immediately pointed my finger at the person I

21     recognised.  I didn't think about it much.

22        Q.   Did you look at any of the other pictures then?

23        A.   Well, when I pointed my finger at the person I knew, I had a look

24     at the other pictures.

25        Q.   So before you took your finger and you pointed at that one

Page 1561

 1     picture, you looked at the other pictures, too, didn't you?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you very much.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 5             Mr. Mansfield.

 6             MR. MANSFIELD:  I'm obliged.

 7                           Cross-examined by Mr. Mansfield:

 8        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.  I want to ask you some questions about

 9     the photograph that you identified from a web site.  Do you understand?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Are you sure that you first saw that photograph on a web site in

12     1999?

13        A.   No.  The same column of soldiers was shown every day on the news

14     after our release.

15        Q.   Right.  So can we take it slowly.  After your release in 1998,

16     you saw the -- that photograph on television before you left Kosovo.  Is

17     that what you're saying?

18        A.   Well, as soon as we were released, the very same day we left

19     Kosovo.  But two or three days later there was picture broadcast on the

20     news of their troops.

21        Q.   Yes.  Was the picture received by you in the place where you were

22     then living?

23        A.   Yes, it was on the news, on TV.

24        Q.   So you saw that picture, I think you have said, every day on the

25     news in 1998 and into 1999.  Is that right?

Page 1562

 1        A.   Only for a month after our release.  I saw it again later on the

 2     Internet.

 3        Q.   All right.  So you saw it every day for a month in 1998 shortly

 4     after your release and then you see it again on the Internet.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, I want to ask -- I understand, you say yes to that.

 7             Now, dealing with this as stage one, did you mention anything to

 8     your father about the photograph you'd seen on the news?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Are you sure?

11        A.   We were together when it was on the news.

12        Q.   You do appreciate your father has already given evidence, don't

13     you?

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I know this has been brought up

15     before, but I strongly object to witnesses' evidence being put to other

16     witnesses.

17             MR. MANSFIELD:  I would like and appreciate if Mr. Nicholls would

18     be patient, because I wasn't going to put anything at this stage.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  That's fine.  We have been going down this line in

20     the past and I put Counsel on notice that --

21             MR. MANSFIELD:  Not with me you haven't.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

23             Please carry on, Mr. Mansfield.

24             MR. MANSFIELD:

25        Q.   You are aware that your father has already given evidence, is

Page 1563

 1     that right, to this Tribunal?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   So according to you, your father saw this picture on television.

 4     And what was your father's reaction to the picture on television when you

 5     saw it together?

 6        A.   He asked me if I was able to recognise that person, if I

 7     remembered that person.

 8        Q.   And what did you say?

 9        A.   Of course I remember.

10        Q.   Of course you remember.  What did he say?

11        A.   Nothing of importance.

12        Q.   Did he recognise the picture on television?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   He did.  So he would have been in a position when seen by

15     investigators to say that he had seen this man before on television,

16     wouldn't he?

17        A.   I don't know if he had in fact said that or not because I was not

18     present.

19        Q.   I didn't ask that.  He would have been in a position, according

20     to you, to identify to investigators the man he'd seen on television,

21     wouldn't he?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Stage two.  The same photograph, you say, then appears on a web

24     site in 1999.  Are you sure about that?

25        A.   I found it in 1999.  I don't know how long it had been posted on

Page 1564

 1     the Internet.

 2        Q.   How is it you remember seeing it in 1999?  Or was it 2000, or was

 3     it 2001?  How do you remember it was 1999 that you saw it on the

 4     Internet?

 5        A.   Because that is when I bought a computer for my school, and

 6     that's I got hooked on the Internet.

 7        Q.   I'm going to summarise the position, if you wouldn't mind

 8     listening, of your evidence so far, that between the autumn of 1999 when

 9     you obtained a computer and January 2003 when you were first seen by

10     investigators in this case, you accessed this web site approximately

11     twice a week.  Is that fair?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You will appreciate, therefore, that that adds up to well over

14     300 occasions that you accessed this web site.  Do you appreciate that?

15     A minimum.

16        A.   Yes, I agree with you.

17        Q.   And during the -- those occasions that you accessed, you would

18     have seen this photograph on many occasions on the web site.  Is that

19     right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Did you mention that to your father, that you'd seen it, the same

22     photograph from television, appearing on the web site?

23        A.   I may have.  I don't remember.

24        Q.   I want to come therefore to stage three, January 2003, when you

25     saw the investigator.  You have already said this afternoon that the

Page 1565

 1     investigator wanted as much detail as you could give and as accurately as

 2     you could give it.  That's the position, isn't it?

 3        A.   He asked for the details that I was able to remember and also to

 4     be as accurate as possible.

 5        Q.   And you gave at that stage a description of the man who you

 6     described as the commander, didn't you?

 7        A.   Yes, I think.

 8        Q.   Well, we have your statement.  I'm not going to take time over

 9     it.  It is accepted that in that statement you did, page 6 of the

10     statement, give a description.  Do you follow?  You can look it up

11     yourself if you wish.  Page 6 at the bottom, page 7 at the top or

12     00032181.  Second paragraph -- well, second main paragraph down.  Do you

13     have it?  Should I give you the longer number?  Would that be easier?

14     I'll do it again.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Excuse me, he's reading a different language than

16     you so the exact pagination will not be the same.

17             MR. MANSFIELD:  Yes, I appreciate that.  I'm much obliged.  Well,

18     it's -- I haven't got the original-language statement.

19        Q.   Can you find, please, the paragraph in the original language

20     where you say:  "I didn't pay attention to the different soldiers in the

21     camp except for a few that I recall.  One was clearly the Commander of

22     the camp."

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  If I may help, it's at the bottom of the page in

24     Serbian.

25             MR. MANSFIELD:  I'm much obliged.  I've just been handed it as

Page 1566

 1     well.  Yes, much obliged.

 2        Q.   Bottom of page 5 in the Serbian.  Do you have that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, can you kindly explain why you did not tell the investigator

 5     that this exception that you remember, the commander, was somebody you

 6     had seen on possibly hundreds of occasions, either on television or on

 7     the Internet?

 8        A.   I don't know why I didn't mention that.

 9        Q.   When you were interviewed by the investigator, did he show you a

10     photograph of the person who you think was the commander of the place

11     where you'd been in detention?

12        A.   No.  He merely showed me the photographs.

13        Q.   So according to you, you were not shown a photograph of the man

14     you thought was the commander.  Is -- I want to be clear about that.  Is

15     that fair?

16        A.   Yes, he didn't show them to me.

17        Q.   I want to move on.  I want to move on to the next stage, which is

18     the rest of 2003 into 2004.  Having made the statement - excuse my voice,

19     I have a cold -- having made the statement in January 2003, did you

20     subsequently appreciate that certain people had been arrested in relation

21     to the matter about which you had given a statement?

22        A.   Could you please repeat that question?

23        Q.   Certainly.

24             After the making of your statement in January 2003, did you

25     become aware that people had been arrested in relation to the matters

Page 1567

 1     contained in your statement?

 2        A.   No.  We did not know that until our arrival here.

 3        Q.   One further question.  Before you came here, did you either see

 4     or read or hear about the start of this trial in The Hague?

 5        A.   We heard that there was a trial going on, but we didn't know if

 6     it concerned us.  We had a very general idea.

 7        Q.   You were in the habit of using your computer regularly and

 8     receiving daily news about Kosovo, weren't you?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You would have been interested to know when the trial started and

11     what was being said about the very things you'd spoken about in your

12     statement, wouldn't you?

13        A.   Yes.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the other microphone for the witness be

15     switched on, please.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the newspapers it only said that

17     the trial began, but there was no other information, just some general

18     information.

19             MR. MANSFIELD:

20        Q.   Were any names of defendants given in the newspapers you read?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   When you had watched television and seen the Internet with the

23     photograph we've been talking about, was a name ever mentioned on

24     television in relation to that photograph?

25        A.   No.

Page 1568

 1        Q.   I want to ask you about your arrival here and you mentioning this

 2     photograph on the Internet for the first time.  That's what I want to ask

 3     you about.  Would it be fair to say that before arriving here you had not

 4     told anyone from the ICTY that you had seen this photograph many times on

 5     the Internet.  Would that be fair?

 6        A.   Yes, that would be fair.

 7        Q.   Having arrived here on Saturday the 27th of November, you've

 8     already indicated there was a proofing session, as it's called, and you

 9     didn't mention it then.  Is that right?

10        A.   No, I did not.

11        Q.   On Sunday, the 28th, there was another proofing session and you

12     didn't mention it then.  Is that right?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   It isn't right?

15        A.   No, I didn't mention it.

16        Q.   You didn't mention it, sorry.

17             Why didn't you mention it on these first two proofing sessions?

18        A.   I just wasn't thinking about it.

19        Q.   Were you given your statement of January to read?

20        A.   Yes, we did [as interpreted].

21        Q.   I wanted to ask you carefully, therefore, as you've indicated

22     today, that the occasion on which you did mention it was the second

23     session with Mr. Nicholls.  So we have a date.  The second session with

24     Mr. Nicholls was on Wednesday, the 1st of December; in other words, not

25     long ago, last week.

Page 1569

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   How did it come about on this second session, not the first, with

 3     Mr. Nicholls that for the first time you remembered this photograph?

 4        A.   He asked me -- he read out his [as interpreted] statement where

 5     the name of the [Realtime transcript read in error: "photograph"]

 6     commander was indicated, and then he just remembered that his photograph

 7     was on the Internet and that it had also been on the news.

 8        Q.   I'm going to ask for care about this.  What has come up on our

 9     screens is that "He asked me -- he read out" -- I think it should be the

10     -- I think you said "his statement," in fact.  His statement where the

11     name of the photograph was indicated.  He remembered that his photograph

12     was on the Internet and that it had also been on the news.

13             Now, that's what's been recorded and I want to ask you about that

14     answer.  What statement did you read out, or did Mr. Lehtinen read out or

15     Mr. Nicholls, as he's the one doing this session, Mr. Nicholls read out

16     where the name of the photograph was indicated?

17        A.   He read out my statement.

18        Q.   All right.  But your statement doesn't have the name of the

19     photograph being indicated, does it?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   So what do you mean about the statement being read out where the

22     name of the photograph was indicated?

23        A.   The name was never mentioned because I didn't know his name.  He

24     merely asked me to explain, or rather to describe what the man that

25     others referred to as the commander looked like.  And then I said that it

Page 1570

 1     would be easier to have a look at the photograph because his photograph

 2     was on the Internet.

 3        Q.   You had already given a description of the man who you say was

 4     the commander in your statement, hadn't you?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   So what was problem?

 7        A.   What do you mean the problem?

 8        Q.   Did Mr. Nicholls indicate why he was asking you a lot more

 9     questions about a description you'd already given?

10        A.   No, he never said why.  He just went through my statement.

11        Q.   Did he ask you why you'd never mentioned this before, that is,

12     the photograph on the Internet?

13        A.   No, he didn't.

14        Q.   He didn't?

15             Was the description you gave of the commander the same as the

16     description you gave in your statement?  The one you gave to Mr.

17     Nicholls, was it the same?

18        A.   Yes, it was the same.

19        Q.   Did you mention to Mr. Nicholls that the man you remember as the

20     commander had longer gray hair?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Because that's not how you describe it in your statement, is it?

23     And you can look at it again if you wish, page 5 at the bottom.  Do you

24     appreciate the difference between what is in the statement and what you

25     were telling Mr. Nicholls and of course what you've told this Tribunal?

Page 1571

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Maybe in fairness to the witness, he could be read

 2     what he actually said in his direct testimony --

 3             MR. MANSFIELD:  Certainly.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  -- which is -- if he could just be read that

 5     rather than --

 6             MR. MANSFIELD:  Certainly.  I will read both if necessary.

 7        Q.   You were in your statement if you just follow it kindly:  "He was

 8     fairly tall, 185 to 190 centimetres, black hair, and was usually

 9     unshaved."

10             Just dealing with that for the moment.  You didn't indicate to

11     the investigator originally in that statement that he had longer graying

12     or gray hair, did you?

13        A.   I didn't say he had longer graying hair, but that he had gray

14     hair.

15        Q.   Gray hair.

16        A.   There is difference between long and gray.

17        Q.   Yes.  I'm actually more interested at the moment in the colour.

18     Did this commander who you saw at the camp or however it's described, did

19     he have gray hair then?

20        A.   A little, yes.

21        Q.   And could you just -- as you talk about length, just tell us what

22     you remember about its length, please, the length of the hair of the

23     person who you say was the commander at the camp.

24        A.   It looked as if he hadn't had a haircut for a couple of months.

25        Q.   A couple of months' growth.  Would you kindly look around the

Page 1572

 1     court, and if there's no objection indicated, if there's anyone in the

 2     court whose length of hair resembled -- not the colour, just the length

 3     of hair -- resembles the length of hair you remember on the commander.

 4     Is there anyone in this room?

 5        A.   A little longer than yours.

 6        Q.   A little longer than mine.

 7             Now, the commander in the camp, did he have facial hair or a

 8     beard, however described?

 9        A.   He was unshaven.

10        Q.   He was unshaven.  Yes.  Did he have a beard, facial hair?

11        A.   I don't understand what you mean exactly.  He was simply

12     unshaven.

13        Q.   I want to put to you what you said last Friday.  Do you remember

14     what you told this Tribunal about his facial hair?

15        A.   What did I say?

16        Q.   No, that's not the question.  I'm sorry.

17             Do you remember what you said on Friday about his facial hair?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   What did you say?

20        A.   That he was unshaven, that he had not shaved for some time.

21        Q.   I'm now going to read to you, and I can give the page and so

22     forth if it's required:  Day 14, page 11, line 7 to 8.  The question you

23     were asked was:  "And did he have any facial hair?"

24             Your answer was:  "No.  He was clean-shaven, not freshly shaven,

25     but he didn't have any facial hair."

Page 1573

 1             Now, that's what you said on Friday.  Is that description that

 2     you gave on Friday accurate?

 3        A.   I think it is.

 4        Q.   You think it is.  The man in the photograph on television that

 5     you had seen many times and on the Internet possibly hundreds of times,

 6     did the man in the photograph have a beard or facial hair?  Or was he

 7     unshaven?  Shaven?  Or what was the position of the man in the

 8     photograph?

 9        A.   He was not freshly shaven.

10        Q.   Did he have a beard, the man in the photograph?

11        A.   Just a little, because he had not shaved for a while.

12        Q.   When you were being asked questions by Mr. Nicholls, did he point

13     out to you that in fact the investigator in January 2003 had shown you a

14     photograph of the commander alleged?

15        A.   No.  Mr. Nicholls didn't tell me that.

16        Q.   I want you to consider this for a moment.  You have said clearly

17     that you were not shown a photograph of the commander as you remember it,

18     the man in the photograph on the Internet, by the investigator in January

19     2003.  Do you remember saying that today, twice?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Right.

22             MR. MANSFIELD:  Could he be shown, please, and I would like it to

23     become an exhibit, B1, which is by reference 00032189.

24                           [Defence counsel confer]

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  We have a colour copy which --

Page 1574












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Page 1575

 1             MR. MANSFIELD:  Well, I'd be much obliged if the colour copy

 2     could be --

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  It's semi-colour.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you want it on the ELMO, Mr. Mansfield?

 5             MR. MANSFIELD:  Yes, please.  Then it's easier for everyone to

 6     see that we've got the same photograph.  Hopefully it's the same one,

 7     same line-up anyway.  B1.  It should be a photo line-up, B1.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That man is not on the photograph,

 9     I mean the same person who is on the Internet.

10             MR. MANSFIELD:

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. MANSFIELD:  I have no further questions.

13                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Mansfield, the Chamber does not presently have

15     a colour version of B1.  I think if it's to be an exhibit that would be

16     of some significance, because the black and white photocopies we have are

17     no where near as useful.

18             MR. MANSFIELD:  I believe mine is a colour version.  I'm happy to

19     hand this one in.  I'll just take a label off it.  Yes, I'm much obliged.

20                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21             MR. MANSFIELD:  Could it become DL1 as I understand it?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Mansfield, that will be Defence Exhibit DL1.

23             MR. MANSFIELD:  Thank you very much.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Topolski.

25                           Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski:

Page 1576

 1        Q.   Witness, I represent a man called Isak Musliu and I just have a

 2     few questions for you.  I want to ask you first of all, please, about

 3     your attitude as an 18 year old, very nearly 19, in the summer of 1998,

 4     your attitude toward the KLA.  Could you summarise what that was in the

 5     summer of 1998?

 6        A.   What we were told afterwards in school appeared on TV, just like

 7     every other Serb child I had the same opinion, that they were not good

 8     towards the Serbs.

 9        Q.   During your evidence on the 3rd of December, last week in other

10     words, you described them as "terrorists."  Would that be your opinion of

11     the KLA, terrorists?

12        A.   That is what everybody called them.

13        Q.   I appreciate that's what everybody called them.  I'm asking you

14     of your opinion of them.  Would you agree that they were terrorists?

15        A.   Is my personal opinion important at this point?  I don't agree

16     with that.

17        Q.   I can assure you that if objection had been taken to my question,

18     or any Judge of this Chamber felt that it was inappropriate to ask you

19     this question, I would have been interrupted by now.  So I'll ask you

20     once more and then I shall move on.

21             Did you think of the KLA in the summer of 1998 as terrorists?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you know in the summer of 1998 of a place called the State

24     Security Centre?

25        A.   Yes.  Yes, I did.

Page 1577

 1        Q.   Did you know in the summer of 1998 of the names of David Gajic

 2     and Dragan Jasevic, both men connected to the State Security Centre?

 3        A.   No, I did not.

 4        Q.   You were asked last week about interviews and meetings that you

 5     had with members of the Serbian authorities.  Do you remember a large

 6     number of questions were asked of you last week about that subject?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   In answer to those questions asked of you by Mr. Guy-Smith

 9     predominantly - exclusively, in fact - you'd told us that you'd met with

10     Serb investigators two or three times after your release from the camp.

11     That's right, isn't it?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   One of those meetings, you told us, was at the Red Cross premises

14     in Pristina and Ruzica Simic was present as well.  Do you remember

15     telling us about that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Did the Serb investigators say that your mother had been on the

18     television while you had been held?

19        A.   I don't remember whether they said that.

20        Q.   Did they say that they knew that Sergeant Genov had been taken as

21     well?

22        A.   No, I don't remember.

23        Q.   Was the name Genov mentioned at all by them during any of your

24     meetings with them, as far as you can remember?

25        A.   I don't remember.

Page 1578

 1        Q.   Were you asked to look at any maps or plans or drawings of the

 2     place where you had been held?

 3        A.   I don't remember.

 4        Q.   Were you shown any photographs by the Serb authorities of the

 5     place where you had been held?

 6        A.   I don't remember.

 7        Q.   As for your father, I only want to ask you two questions about

 8     the events in the place themselves.  I can take the first one very

 9     shortly.  In your own witness statement, you estimate the number of

10     soldiers you saw at this place as around 50.  Do you remember saying that

11     in your statement?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And now, all this time later, does the figure "around 50" match

14     your memory of the number of soldiers you would have seen at the place

15     where you were held?

16        A.   I really don't know how many of them I saw.  They took turns

17     constantly.  They were changing.  I didn't count them, but that would be

18     my approximation.

19        Q.   Yes.  Well I'll settle certainly for that answer.

20             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honours, I want to deal with the photograph,

21     the now rather familiar photograph we've been looking at with other

22     witnesses.  I see it's now 2 minutes before 25 past.  Would you like me

23     to finish this topic or not start it before the break?

24             JUDGE PARKER:  You have further topics?

25             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I want to put the photograph and deal with that.

Page 1579

 1     Your Honours have seen me do this exercise before.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm just asking whether that will be the end.

 3             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I have one other, apart from that.  And that will

 4     be it.  And none of it will take long.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Why don't you carry on.

 6             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   I'd like to show you a photograph, but before I do I want to ask

 8     you this:  A number of the soldiers or people at the place wore masks,

 9     did they not?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   On the subject of masks and of uniforms, I'd like you to look at

12     a photograph, please, and it's P18, a photograph we have looked at

13     before.  Now, I should tell you straightaway, it's not being suggested by

14     me that there is anyone here that you would recognise.  This is just a

15     sample.  Do you understand?  Do you understand me?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   If you look carefully, I think you'll see five masked

18     individuals, three of them standing, two of them seated, in this group of

19     people.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Looking only at the masks, I think you might agree with me, sir,

22     that four of them have a mask of a similar style; one of them has a mask

23     of a slightly different style in terms of the area around the eyes.

24     First of all, do you agree with what I've just suggested to you?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 1580

 1        Q.   First question:  As far as any masked individual that you saw

 2     during your stay at the place, did any of them wear masks similar to the

 3     style of mask we see in this photograph?

 4        A.   These four individuals wearing the same kind of mask.  They

 5     looked like that more or less.

 6        Q.   Do you agree with me that we see, broadly speaking, two different

 7     kinds of uniform in this photograph?  We see what appears to be a black

 8     uniform and we see one gentleman wearing what I shall describe as a

 9     camouflage uniform.  Do you agree with my descriptions?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Taking it in turn, did you see soldiers wearing camouflage

12     uniform of the type we see the gentleman seated wearing?  While you were

13     at the camp of course is what I'm asking you.

14        A.   Yes, I did.

15        Q.   In relation to the black uniform of all of the others, did you

16     see anyone wearing a uniform like that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   You'll see from the arms of three of them, on the left arm of

19     each appears to be an arm band with the letters, I suggest, "PU."  At the

20     camp, did you see anyone in the period you were there, of course, wearing

21     such an armband?

22        A.   As far as I can recall, I never saw anyone with this insignia.

23        Q.   And again for the sake of completeness, that deals with armbands

24     with PU on it.  What about insignias on caps or headwear?  Did you see

25     anyone wearing a cap or a hat with "PU" on it as far as you recall?

Page 1581

 1        A.   I don't remember.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  That's all I ask you about the photograph.  I want to

 3     deal with just one other topic.

 4             You have been asked a lot of questions today about your use of

 5     the Internet.  I want to understand just two things and then I have two

 6     questions.  Do I understand your evidence to be that predominantly you

 7     visited a web site called

 8        A.   If I happen to be interested in Kosovo, yes, that was the site I

 9     visited.

10        Q.   In addition to that you visited other Serbian sites, is that

11     right, web sites?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did you see any information or details posted on any of those web

14     sites from survivor groups or anything of that kind?

15        A.   There was a long list of survivors and of those who had gone

16     missing.  That was all there is -- there was.

17        Q.   Was there an opportunity to exchange information or get

18     information from any web site in relation to survivors?

19        A.   I think there was.

20        Q.   Did you?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Did you tell your father of the existence of these web sites?

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the answer.

24             MR. TOPOLSKI:

25        Q.   Could you please repeat the answer.  I think one of your

Page 1582

 1     microphones might be switched off -- it's back on now.

 2             The question, Witness, was:  Did you tell your father of the

 3     existence of these web sites?

 4        A.   No, I did not.

 5        Q.   Did you tell anybody else of the existence of these web sites?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Were you between the time you got your computer and meeting with

 8     investigators in January 2003 the receiver of any e-mail from anyone

 9     claiming to be a survivor or connected to any survivor of the war in

10     Kosovo, and in particular the place where you were taken?  Did you hear

11     from anyone?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Did you make contact with anyone yourself or try to?

14        A.   No, I did not.

15        Q.   Were you aware of Serbs and Albanians sharing information

16     regarding Serbs and Albanians?  Were you aware of that?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Did your father ever speak to you about such a thing?

19        A.   No, he did not.

20        Q.   Last matter.  By my calculation you got here to The Hague

21     around -- on or about the 27th of November and you first began to give

22     evidence before this Tribunal on the 3rd of December.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Adding together the periods of time you told Mr. Guy-Smith you

25     were in what are known as proofing sessions, if my arithmetic is

Page 1583

 1     reliable, which it often isn't, it comes to about eight and a half hours.

 2     Would that accord with your memory, sir, some eight and a half hours

 3     spent with Prosecutors before giving evidence?

 4        A.   Yes, approximately.

 5        Q.   I don't want any of the detail, even the agenda, still less the

 6     name of anyone concerned, but you were -- were you put in touch with

 7     something called the Victims and Witnesses section of this Tribunal,

 8     people to help you?

 9        A.   Yes, we were.

10        Q.   People to whom you could talk, people to whom you could confide

11     any difficulties or problems you may have.  Do you agree?

12        A.   I think yes.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm having a real difficulty seeing how this could

14     possibly be relevant and --

15             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Just wait for the next question and you'll --

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Before we get to the next question, I object to

17     the witness having to answer questions about his contacts with Victims

18     and Witnesses and being able to talk about any problems, personal

19     problems he may have had here.  Or just ordinary difficulties.  These

20     people are translators and are there to help the witness.  It's got

21     nothing to do with his testimony.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Carry on, Mr. Topolski.

23             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Mr. Nicholls was too fast to his feet, I'm afraid.

24        Q.   Were you rehearsed by Prosecutors as to what the evidence you

25     were to give in this case?  Do you understand what I mean by rehearsed?

Page 1584

 1     Let me put it another way.  The eight and a half hours you spent with

 2     Prosecutors -- not with Victim and Witness section, but with

 3     Prosecutors -- did you, you, regard that as a rehearsal?

 4        A.   Well, I don't know what you mean.  This is the first time that I

 5     am in a courtroom.  They merely told me what the questioning would look

 6     like, things like that.

 7        Q.   Yes.  That's all I ask you.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  We will break now.  I'm told that for

 9     technical reasons a half-hour will be required by the technicians before

10     we can resume with the tapes.  So we will resume at 5 past 6.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 5.37 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Nicholls.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could the witness be shown P80.

15                           Re-examined by Mr. Nicholls:

16        Q.   Sir, you've been asked a lot of questions about that photograph;

17     I want to show it to you one more time.  I want you to look at it for me,

18     think.  Look at the picture of the man you've indicated with the arrow.

19     Is that the man who was commander in the camp while you were there, while

20     you were held there?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   That's all.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

24             Sir, you'll be pleased to know that that is the end of your

25     questioning.  You are now free to leave The Hague and return to your

Page 1585

 1     home.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  We would like to thank you for your attendance and

 4     the assistance that you've given us.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's been my pleasure.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  You may leave now.  Thank you.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I be excused, Your Honours.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             MR. CAYLEY:  Mr. President, would you like me to withdraw and

10     find out what's going on outside the courtroom?

11             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm about to have -- here we are.

12             The next witness, please.

13                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Good evening.

16             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Could I ask you to take the card and read the

18     affirmation.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Please sit down.

22             Mr. Cayley.

23                           WITNESS:  LJILJANA MITROVIC

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25                           Examined by Mr. Cayley:

Page 1586

 1        Q.   Madam, I know this is a difficult process for you giving evidence

 2     here this evening.  I do apologise that you've had to wait so long.

 3     Please do relax as best you can.  I'm going to ask you a series of

 4     questions and just answer them as best you can.  And I suspect that your

 5     evidence will be finished quite quickly.

 6             Are you feeling all right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   I'm right in saying your name is Ljiljana Mitrovic?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you were born in 1959?

11             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, I do apologise for interjecting so early.

12     Just for the record, we do understand and sympathise with the witness.

13     It should be known for the record that all members on this side of the

14     bar were very happy to accept this witness's testimony to be read into

15     evidence or otherwise produced, rather than to require her to attend

16     court.  Of course it is a matter for the Prosecution, but as far as our

17     position is concerned, I thought we should make matters clear for Your

18     Honours' attention and information.  One again, I apologise for

19     interrupting my learned friend, Mr. Cayley.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Khan.

21             Yes, Mr. Cayley.

22             MR. CAYLEY:  Just on that issue, I think it may be true in

23     respect to two Defence counsel, but it was indicated to me on Friday,

24     certainly the message was passed to me, that one counsel may, may have

25     questions for this witness.  So I merely add that as a point of

Page 1587

 1     clarification on what Mr. Khan has just said.  If I can continue.

 2        Q.   You were born in 1959.  Is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you were born in Istok in Kosovo.  Is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And I think you are a Kosovar Serb.  Is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can you tell the Judges your level of education.

 9        A.   I am a legal technician.  I was educated in two languages, in

10     Albanian and in Serbian.  And I have a certificate as an interpreter for

11     Albanian and Serbian.

12        Q.   I'm right in saying that until 1998 you had lived all of your

13     life in Kosovo?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And you are of the Orthodox religion.  Is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, I think you were married in 1982.  Is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And to whom were you married?

20        A.   I was married to Slobodan Mitrovic from Suva Reka.

21        Q.   If the witness could just be shown a marriage certificate and

22     we'll put that into evidence.

23             MR. CAYLEY:  Your Honours, if -- Mr. Registrar, if I could have

24     an exhibit number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P84.

Page 1588

 1             MR. CAYLEY:

 2        Q.   Madam, do you recognise that document?

 3        A.   Yes.  That is my marriage certificate.

 4        Q.   Now, you say that your husband Slobodan Mitrovic was from Suva

 5     Reka.  Just to establish a few points, was he a Serb also?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   What languages did your husband speak?

 8        A.   Serbian, Russian, and Albanian.

 9        Q.   And prior to 1998, am I right in saying that he had lived all of

10     his live in Kosovo?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Mrs. Mitrovic, you can put that document down now.  Thank you.

13     Were there children of your marriage to Slobodan Mitrovic?

14        A.   Yes, we have twins, a boy and a girl.

15        Q.   And when were they born?

16        A.   The 13th of June, 1991.

17        Q.   Now, I want you very briefly to think about the time before the

18     war.  I think you and your husband ran a company together in Suva Reka.

19     What did that company do?

20        A.   A wide range of activities; trade, a private TV channel, a

21     driving school, and an agency that helped you get all the personal

22     documents that you required.

23        Q.   What were the ethnicity of your customers, if you can recall?

24        A.   90 per cent of them were Albanians.

25        Q.   Can you explain why so many Albanians used your company?

Page 1589

 1        A.   Well, first of all because we were well-respected by them in that

 2     area, perhaps even in a wider region; and secondly, 90 per cent of the

 3     population there were Albanians.

 4        Q.   Did you have any Albanians that worked for your company?

 5        A.   Yes.  The driving instructors -- in fact, just one, his name was

 6     Tefik Kabashi from Gorisha.

 7        Q.   Now, you say 90 per cent of the population where you lived were

 8     Albanians.  Did you and your husband have any Albanian friends in the

 9     area?

10        A.   Yes, many of them.

11        Q.   Now, I want you to direct your mind to the springtime of 1998.

12     So March, April, May of 1998.  Can you think of that period for me?

13        A.   Yes, of course I remember.

14        Q.   Whereabouts were you living at that time?

15        A.   We lived in Recani.  That's a suburb of Suva Reka.

16        Q.   If I showed you a map do you think you would be able to point out

17     to the Judges where you lived?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   This is map 6 of P1.

20             If you could just look at it in front of you for a moment, Mrs.

21     Mitrovic, and see if you can find where you lived --

22        A.   Yes, well, here it is.

23        Q.   Could you place the map on the ELMO.  And if you could point out

24     -- so can you just point out to the Judges where you lived.

25        A.   [Witness complies]

Page 1590












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1591

 1        Q.   I see.

 2             MR. CAYLEY:  And just for the record, the witness has indicated

 3     with a pointer to the town of Suva Reka.

 4        Q.   Mrs. Mitrovic, did you actually live in Suva Reka itself or did

 5     you live outside of it, just to be clear?

 6        A.   We had an apartment in Suva Reka, but we were building our house

 7     on the outskirts of Suva Reka, about 2 kilometres from it.  We were

 8     unable to continue living in our apartment because it was occupied.  We

 9     had to go and live in the suburbs.

10        Q.   And what was the name of that place where you lived in the

11     suburbs?

12        A.   The village of Recani.

13        Q.   Now, at this particular time can you describe for the Judges what

14     the security situation was like, as you remember, in the Suva Reka area

15     in the spring of 1998.

16        A.   Well, it was a difficult time.  The children could no longer go

17     to school.  There were roadblocks.  We couldn't pass them.  There were

18     protests practically every day, demonstrations.

19        Q.   Who was mounting the roadblocks?  Who had put these roadblocks in

20     place, if you can recall?

21        A.   Probably Albanians, terrorists.  Who else?

22        Q.   And is that the reason the children could no longer go to school,

23     because of these roadblocks?

24        A.   Well, yes.  That was one of the reasons.  There is also the other

25     reason.  I saw that when I took them to school one day.  I came across a

Page 1592

 1     group of protesters, thousands of them.  They wanted to overturn our car

 2     and to kill my children.  We barely got out of that situation alive.

 3        Q.   Now, I want you to think of a village above Recani, the village

 4     of Budakovo.  Do you recognise that name?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Can you tell the Judges what was going on in that village at this

 7     time, if you can recall.

 8        A.   Nobody -- none of us Serbs could go there.  It was quite obvious

 9     that columns of trailer trucks were going up there with sand.  It was

10     obvious that some construction was going on.  We heard later from some

11     farmers, some shepherds, that trenches were being built there and that

12     new roads, macadam roads, were being constructed so that they would not

13     have to use the roads that were already there.

14        Q.   And who was doing this construction work in Budakovo?

15        A.   Albanians.

16        Q.   Now, you didn't see this construction work with your own eyes,

17     did you?

18        A.   Not the construction work, but I did see the trailer trucks that

19     transported sand to that area.

20        Q.   And as far as the other matters that you've stated, that trenches

21     were being dug and roads were being constructed, you heard that from

22     other people, didn't you?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   How did you and your husband feel at this time?

25        A.   It was terrible.  You lived for years with another people in love

Page 1593

 1     and harmony and all of a sudden these other people puts up barricades.

 2     You can no longer go to work.  Your children can't go to school.  You

 3     can't live normally.  It's simply terrible.

 4        Q.   I want you to direct your mind specifically to the month of May

 5     1998, and I think your husband Boban, Slobodan Mitrovic, was visited by

 6     an old Albanian man at his office.  Can you recall what your husband told

 7     you about that event?

 8        A.   Yes, I recall that quite clearly.  An old man came to see him.  I

 9     don't know exactly where he was from, from Seminisa [phoen], from

10     Studencani.   At any rate, from the municipality of Suva Reca.  He used

11     to be a friend of my father-in-law, Blagoje Mitrovic.  He came to see

12     Slobodan, asked him whether he was Slobodan Mitrovic, a son of Blagoje

13     Mitrovic from Recani.  When Slobodan confirmed that, he said that he had

14     come there as a friend, that he could not forget all the good that

15     Blagoje Mitrovic had done for the Albanian people in that area and that

16     he felt he had a moral obligation to tell Slobodan, since he had heard

17     that we finally after nine years of marriage got children, that we should

18     take our children somewhere safe to Serbia because there would be a major

19     war there.

20        Q.   How did you and your husband react to this warning?

21        A.   We couldn't believe this, since we were such good friends with

22     Albanians.  We thought that nothing of the sort could happen.  We decided

23     not to take our children anywhere, to stay with there our neighbours.

24        Q.   Thinking ahead to the next month, to June, you've already

25     described the security situation for us in Suva Reka.  Did matters become

Page 1594

 1     better or worse in terms of security?

 2        A.   It became more and more difficult.  The children didn't go to

 3     school.  That school year was interrupted.  The town itself was blocked.

 4     We couldn't get out.  Anywhere we went, there was a risk involved.  It

 5     was dangerous.

 6        Q.   I want you now that direct your mind to the 14th of June of 1998

 7     and if you can recall what happened on that day.

 8        A.   We had not had any sleep that night.  We didn't sleep that night

 9     because there is a forest behind my house and a river and throughout that

10     night we could hear the cars passing through and along the roads that had

11     been opened by the terrorists.  We could hear very strange sounds.  It

12     sounded like birds.  The night was horrible.  We simply couldn't fall

13     asleep.  We were alone at home with our children and the important thing

14     was not to create panic because of the children.

15             Just before dawn I went to lie down a little bit.  I was fully

16     dressed.  We had not taken our clothes off, as we had not done before,

17     and just before daybreak my husband came to me and woke me up.  He said I

18     should get up quickly.  He had been listening to the news and that we

19     were under siege, a blockade, that all the roads were blocked and the

20     only way out is through Brezovica, if that is blocked then there is no

21     way out for us.  The question was what to do with children, whether we

22     should take them out, try to save them, or to leave them there.  I simply

23     couldn't make that decision.

24             I wanted him to decide and then he wanted me to decide.  We

25     simply didn't know what to do.  We were supposed to leave our home, our

Page 1595

 1     house, the house in which our ancestors had lived for centuries.  We

 2     simply couldn't bring ourselves to take our children away from the house

 3     which we called our home --

 4        Q.   Could I interrupt you there.  Did you in fact eventually make a

 5     decision to leave the house in Recani?

 6        A.   Boban reached the decision.  He said I should pack the basic

 7     things for the children, that we should not sacrifice them after all the

 8     trouble that we had gone through to have them.  So on the 14th we set out

 9     for Serbia via Brezovica.  We wanted to go to my parents'.

10        Q.   So you, Boban, and the children went to Serbia to be with your

11     parents.  Is that right?

12        A.   Yes, but Boban went back right away.  He didn't want to leave his

13     area, the country where he had lived for so long.

14        Q.   Could I ask you:  Where did Boban go back to?

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness be asked to repeat the

16     answer, please.

17             MR. CAYLEY:

18        Q.   Witness, I'm going to have to ask you repeat that.  You said

19     Boban went back right away.  I'm simply asking you:  Where, were did

20     Boban go after he delivered you and the children to Serbia?

21        A.   He went home to Recani.

22        Q.   Now, after the 15th of June of 1998, did you speak with your

23     husband at all, you being in Serbia and he being in Kosovo?

24        A.   Yes.  We spoke every day, sometimes even several times a day.

25        Q.   Did your company in Suva Reka continue to function during this

Page 1596

 1     time?

 2        A.   No.  Boban told me that he had let them go home until further

 3     notice that so we see what will happen.  He said that the peacekeeping

 4     forces would come, that perhaps there would not be any war, that things

 5     may calm down and that in that case we would come back for me and the

 6     children and we would all go home.

 7        Q.   You've stated to the Court:  "Boban told me he had to let them go

 8     until further notice."

 9             Who did Boban have to let go home?

10        A.   The employees in our company.

11        Q.   And why did he have to let them go home?

12        A.   Because they could no longer come to work.  Everything was

13     blocked.  There were roadblocks all over the place and it simply was not

14     safe to travel.  The war had practically already started.

15        Q.   When did you next see your husband?

16        A.   I saw him on the 23rd of June, 1998.

17        Q.   Whereabouts did you see him?

18        A.   In Arandjelovac.  He came to us with his aunt's son.

19        Q.   Wait a moment.  Arandjelovac, that is the town in Serbia where

20     you were staying with your parents and the children?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, why did your husband appear in Serbia with his cousin?

23        A.   He came to fetch the other cousin, Miodrag -- Milovan Krstic who

24     had been in hospital for treatment.  They wanted to take him home.

25        Q.   Now, let me just get this correct with you.  Who was Milovan

Page 1597

 1     Krstic?

 2        A.   Milovan Krstic is Boban's cousin, his aunt's son, and he's the

 3     brother of Miodrag Krstic.

 4        Q.   And so Miodrag Krstic is also your husband's cousin.  Correct?

 5        A.   Yes.  He's also his cousin.

 6        Q.   And your husband appeared in Serbia with Milovan.  Is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Why did they come to Serbia?

 9        A.   They wanted to collect Miodrag from hospital.

10        Q.   And where was Miodrag in hospital?

11        A.   In Belgrade.

12        Q.   I'm just going to show you some photographs.  Where were Milovan

13     Krstic and Miodrag Krstic from?

14        A.   From Recani.

15             MR. CAYLEY:  If the witness could be shown 2166.  This is

16     U0032166, Your Honours, from Prosecutor's Exhibit P54.

17             If you can allow the witness to look at it.

18        Q.   I realise this is a relative, but can you just identify that

19     individual for me?

20        A.   Yes.  This is Milovan Krstic.

21             MR. CAYLEY:  And if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's

22     Exhibit 2167, also from Prosecutor's Exhibit P54.

23        Q.   Can you identify that individual for me, Mrs. Mitrovic?

24        A.   Yes.  This is Miodrag Krstic, shown on this photograph with his

25     son.

Page 1598

 1             MR. CAYLEY:  Okay.  You can take those away.

 2        Q.   Did Milovan Krstic have a nickname, as you can recall?

 3        A.   Yes.  He was called Mona.

 4        Q.   And Miodrag Krstic, did he have a nickname?

 5        A.   He was called Mija.

 6        Q.   Now, when your husband arrived in Serbia, did you say anything to

 7     him about the journey that he was making?

 8        A.   Yes.  I was shocked when I saw him.  I said, Goodness, are you

 9     normal?  And he said, Well, thank you very much for welcoming me.  But I

10     had said that because I had seen on TV that the roads had been blocked.

11     So I asked him why he had taken this risk and why he had come.  And I

12     also asked him to stay and not to go back until the situation calmed

13     down.  He didn't heed my advice, despite the fact that the children

14     pleaded with him as well.  They were both of the same opinion, Milovan

15     and Boban; they thought that they should go home.

16        Q.   And when you say "go home," to which place are you referring?

17        A.   To Recani.

18        Q.   And they would go home after collecting Miodrag from hospital in

19     Belgrade.  Correct?

20        A.   Yes.  That's why they had come.

21        Q.   Now, I want you to direct your mind now to the 24th of June of

22     1998, which is in fact the next day.  Can you tell the Judges what you

23     heard from other people took place in respect of your husband, Slobodan,

24     and Milovan and Miodrag Krstic.

25        A.   I heard they had been kidnapped by terrorists, that they never

Page 1599

 1     made it home.

 2        Q.   If we can get -- before we get to that point in time, what I'd

 3     like you to do is to address the time that they left Belgrade.  I know,

 4     again, this is what you heard from other people, but if you could address

 5     from the time they left Belgrade, what you know of the time up until, as

 6     you say, they got kidnapped.

 7        A.   They started on the 24th of June.  They were going home to Recani

 8     from Belgrade after having collected Miodrag Krstic.  They called

 9     Miodrag's sister from Krusevac and they said they had taken a stop there

10     because Milovan was still very ill and the journey was too taxing for

11     him, but they were in a rush to get home before dark because everybody

12     knew that no one could leave home after dark.  It was not safe.

13        Q.   Can I stop you there.  Where did Miodrag's sister live?

14        A.   She lived in Barajevo in Serbia.  It is a suburb of Belgrade.

15        Q.   And it is she that told you the three of them had called from

16     Krusevac.  Is that right?

17        A.   Yes.  She called me on the phone and told me that they had

18     called, that I should not worry, that they were still in Krusevac, and

19     they would hurry to get home before dark.

20        Q.   Can you tell the Judges what happened on the rest of that

21     evening, for the remainder of that evening.

22        A.   We called each other.  I called Recani.  I inquired whether they

23     had arrived; but they had not.  Then I thought that they had stopped in

24     Pristina and they had decided to spend the night there.  My first thought

25     was that they called up my uncle, so I called my uncle and asked him if

Page 1600

 1     they were there.  The answer was negative.  He said that they had not

 2     called there.  Then I thought that they might be gone to a friend's house

 3     and that they would continue the journey the next day.

 4             The next day I no longer called.  I panicked because they had not

 5     shown up, and I just didn't know where they were.  And I just thought to

 6     myself, Oh my God, where are they now?  So I thought perhaps I should

 7     better call friends from SUP and find out whether the roads had -- were

 8     still blocked, whether the car had entered the territory of Kosovo at

 9     all.  And the answer I got was that --

10        Q.   Could I stop you there?  Now, you say that you contacted friends

11     from SUP.  You mean that you contacted friends in the police.  Correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And what information were the police able to give you?

14        A.   That a blue Golf carrying three gentlemen had entered the

15     territory of Kosovo.

16        Q.   Who did that blue Golf belong to, as far as you know?

17        A.   This blue Golf bearing Kotor licence plates belonged to Miodrag

18     Krstic.

19        Q.   Did the police, or did you give to the police the number plate of

20     the vehicle?

21        A.   Yes, because I knew the number but it was a long time ago.  I no

22     longer remember it.

23        Q.   And the police confirmed that the particular blue Golf with the

24     licence plates that you stated had crossed the border at a certain time.

25     Is that right?

Page 1601

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you recall where the vehicle crossed the border into Kosovo?

 3        A.   Yes, at Merdare.

 4        Q.   Now, after you'd received that information, what did you do after

 5     that?

 6        A.   I packed my bag and set out for Kosovo.

 7        Q.   And if you can remember, what sort of date was it that you

 8     actually got to Kosovo?  Was it the next day?  Was it two days later?

 9     After June 25th?

10        A.   The next day, and I arrived the same day.

11        Q.   And where did you go when you got to Kosovo?

12        A.   Recani.

13        Q.   And what did you do in Recani?

14        A.   I went immediately to look for them.  I visited my Albanian

15     friends.  I wanted to know whether they had heard something.

16        Q.   Did you in fact hear anything about what had happened to your

17     husband and the Krstic brothers?

18        A.   Yes.  They told me that they had been stopped at Crnoljevo and

19     kidnapped by terrorists and taken in the direction of Malisevo.

20        Q.   Do you recall who told you that?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What was the name of the person that told you that?

23        A.   Abdyl Kryeziu, from Suva Reka.  Hamzi's father.

24        Q.   Did you receive any information from any other --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  His father's name

Page 1602

 1     was Hamzi.

 2             MR. CAYLEY:

 3        Q.   Did you receive any other information from any other of your

 4     Albanian neighbours about what happened to your husband and the Krstic

 5     brothers.

 6        A.   Yes.  From many sources I learned essentially the same story,

 7     that is, that they had been kidnapped.

 8        Q.   Now, I believe you also spoke to a gentleman by the name of Rade

 9     Vujevic?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And who is he Rade Vujevic?

12        A.   He is our friend from Kosovo Polje.  It's a town not far from

13     Pristina.  He is the owner of the Herzegovina Hotel.  He told me the

14     story that he had heard from his friend Dusko who used to work at the SUP

15     in Pristina.  There Vesel Pintoli from Tumacine [phoen] had come to see

16     him and that he had told him that Boban and the Krstic brothers had been

17     kidnapped and killed, that he had tried to save Boban but he could hardly

18     save himself because at that time they were being killed by Siptari and

19     that he could not -- that they could not be saved.  And if it was of any

20     consolation to me, that he had sent me his last regard and that Boban had

21     fallen, after being shot with only one bullet in the forehead.

22        Q.   Mrs. Mitrovic, would you -- do you want to go on or would you

23     like to take a break?

24        A.   We can go on.

25        Q.   Did you ever try and find this man, Vesel Pintoli, to get to the

Page 1603

 1     bottom of this story?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did you ever find him?

 4        A.   No I once tried to go to Tumacine but I only got as far as the

 5     entrance to Suva Reka.  And at the checkpoint they wouldn't let me

 6     through.  They said, Do you want to leave orphans behind you?  Do you

 7     want to leave your children without their mother?  Do you really want to

 8     sacrifice all this?

 9        Q.   Did you ever speak to Dusko, the Serbian police officer, about

10     this piece of information about your husband, the man who had interviewed

11     Vesel Pintoli?  Did you ever speak to Dusko?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Now, I want you to direct your mind to November of 1998 and

14     specifically to the 16th of November, 1998, when I believe that the -- or

15     the godfather of your children, Stevan Savic received a telephone call.

16     Can you tell the Judges the content of that telephone call?

17        A.   Yes.  I remember, yes.  He was the godfather of my children.  He

18     called me at my mother's home.  He said he had got my number from a

19     gentleman who spoke with Macedonian dialect.  He wanted to know where he

20     could find me because he had a very important message from Boban to

21     convey to me.  My cum, the godfather, he was shocked.  And he wanted to

22     hear the story from him, but then the man said that he wanted to tell me

23     directly what the message was.

24        Q.   So to clarify, your -- the godfather of your children had spoken

25     with a gentleman with Macedonian dialect.  Is that right?

Page 1604

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And what had that man said, the man with the Macedonian dialect,

 3     to your -- to the godfather of your children, Stevan Savic?

 4        A.   He said that Boban had given me the telephone number to call the

 5     godfather and that there was an urgent message from Boban to convey to

 6     me.  And then this godfather he said he would call later, he needed some

 7     time to find the phone number.  But he actually wanted to call me to find

 8     out whether he should give him my number.

 9        Q.   And did Mr. Savic give the man with the Macedonian accent your

10     telephone number?

11        A.   Yes, he did, after I had given him my consent.

12        Q.   And did you then receive a telephone call from this gentleman

13     with a Macedonian accent?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And what did this gentleman say to you?

16        A.   I'd gone home immediately to Suva Reka.  I gave the number down

17     there because I thought that he would soon be released.  And I wanted to

18     be near so I could receive him.  And we agreed to speak again that night.

19     It was difficult.  It was difficult because it was very risky for me to

20     go to the apartment, because there is a passage to our building and there

21     is a back entrance to the building which had already been under the

22     control of the terrorists.

23        Q.   Mrs. Mitrovic, if we could go directly to the conversation that

24     you had with this gentleman.  Can you tell the Judges the content of the

25     conversation that you had with the gentleman with the Macedonian accent.

Page 1605

 1        A.   Yes.  He called me and he said that he was Boban's friend, that

 2     he had seen Boban a few days ago, that Boban said, Hello.  And that he

 3     asked whether his wife -- his mother was still alive and how his children

 4     were.  I said, I'm sorry, I didn't quite get your name.  He said, I

 5     didn't give you my name.  I asked him where Boban was.  His response was,

 6     On the other side.

 7             Then he told me that we should meet and talk.  I replied that he

 8     was welcome to come at any time, that he could come to our place and that

 9     we would talk.  However, he refused to come.  He said that he couldn't

10     that -- because his freedom of movement was limited, that he could not

11     cross the border into Kosovo.  I was supposed to come to Macedonia, to

12     Skopje to be more precise.  It was a bit strange for me.  I said that I

13     did not have a passport, that I couldn't cross the border.

14             He then said that I should try and get a passport and he laughed.

15     It was -- he found it strange that I did not have a passport.  He

16     obviously knew me quite well.  I said that I would try to get a passport

17     and that we would talk the next day.

18             He called me tomorrow -- the next day at the same time.

19        Q.   If you could stop there, Mrs. Mitrovic.

20             MR. CAYLEY:  I don't know, Your Honours, if this is an

21     appropriate time to stop.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Cayley.

23             Unfortunately the time we can sit has now expired.  It will be

24     necessary for the evidence to continue tomorrow.  I'm sorry, Mrs.

25     Mitrovic, but we will have to ask you to return tomorrow afternoon when

Page 1606

 1     your evidence will continue.

 2             We'll adjourn now until tomorrow at 2.15.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of

 5                           December, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.