Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2204

1 Wednesday, 19 January 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, General. If I could remind you of

7 the affirmation you took at the beginning of your evidence, which still

8 applies.

9 Mr. Guy-Smith.

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith:

14 Q. Good afternoon, General.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. I have but a few questions to ask you.

17 From the period of May through July of 1998, did you know any

18 individuals who were involved in fighting whose name was Shala?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you recall - I'm sure you do, since there's been a fair amount

21 of discussion concerning this matter - being involved in an interview

22 with the Office of the Prosecutor in November of 2003?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Present at that interview were yourself; correct?

25 A. Yes, myself.

Page 2205

1 Q. As well as a number of members of the Prosecution team, including

2 Ole Lehtinen, an investigator, Colin Black, a prosecutor, and an

3 interpreter; correct?

4 A. Yes, exactly like that.

5 Q. During that interview process, questions were put to you by Mr.

6 Lehtinen, the investigator for the Office of the Prosecutor, translated

7 into the language of Albanian to which you responded; true?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. And if I understood your testimony correctly, you were

10 responsible for the Shkoza unit; correct?

11 A. Yes, until May.

12 Q. During your interview with the Office of the Prosecutor on

13 November 19th, you were asked about military structure, were you not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you were asked the following question by Mr. Lehtinen with

16 regard to the issue of military structure, were you not?

17 "I know" -- this is Mr. Lehtinen: "I know that there was no

18 actual military structure, but through no military structure, and I'm

19 trying to figure out what -- if this were units, what was the next higher

20 level? Did you have a higher command for these units?" Which is to be

21 found on page 22 of the English translation. And I'm not sure whether

22 you need to review the Albanian.

23 Do you remember that question being asked of you?

24 A. If you could ask the question again. And I don't have the

25 transcript here, so if I could have that to have a look.

Page 2206

1 MR. NICHOLLS: It's probably around page ten or 11 in the

2 Albanian.

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The question that I asked you was: Were you asked the following

6 question by Mr. Lehtinen from the Office of the Prosecutor with regard to

7 the issue of military structure?

8 "Q. I know that there was no actual military structure, but you

9 know military structure and I'm trying to figure out what -- if this were

10 units, what was the next higher level? Did you have a higher command for

11 these units?"

12 That was a question that was asked of you by Mr. Lehtinen;

13 correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. You responded to that question by stating: "The General Staff

16 was on top of it"; true?

17 A. Yes, that's true.

18 Q. And Mr. Lehtinen, in asking you questions with regard to the

19 issue once again of military structure continued asking you the

20 following:

21 "Q. So there was no -- there was nothing between the General

22 Staff and these units"; correct? That was a question that he asked you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you responded: "There wasn't yet a middle step or another

25 step. There was at that time -- so were there -- there was no other step

Page 2207

1 between the General Staff and the units. But then we got the order at a

2 later time, got the order that these units had to be turned into

3 brigades." That was your answer; correct?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Mr. Lehtinen at that time changed his questioning to you, from

6 that dealing specifically with the issue of military structure to the

7 timing of structure, to the time that things occurred. And the next

8 question he asked you was as follows:

9 "Q. Okay. But this only happened after, after July 1998";

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. You responded to that question, in which you explained:

13 "A. Before -- before -- acting before that, we were all friends

14 with each other, so we had contacts with each other. That's how we

15 communicated about everything. Somewhere around the middle of May 1998,

16 so we -- all the unit -- people responsible for the units got together

17 around the middle of 1998" -- I'm sorry -- "Around the middle of May 1998

18 to find somebody who would be responsible for all the zones, the General

19 Staff to create zones and complete them as well, inside the zones, and to

20 send a representative there. Since the death of our legendary commander

21 there had been nobody substituting him"; correct?

22 A. Yes, correct.

23 Q. And from May 1998 through the summer months you were engaged in

24 many, many different activities; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2208

1 Q. You were defending the population; true?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You were establishing ambulance brigades; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You were trying to assist the displaced people, people who had

6 been driven from their homes by the Serbs; true?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You were attempting to organise as best you could; correct?

9 A. Yes. That's how it was.

10 Q. And, of course, throughout all of this, you were fighting for

11 your lives and for the lives of your people; correct?

12 A. Yes. I fought and I tried as best as I could to protect the

13 population and to fight for my country.

14 Q. Thank you very much, General.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have no further questions.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

17 Mr. Nicholls.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: Very briefly.

19 Re-examined by Mr. Nicholls:

20 Q. Good afternoon, General.

21 A. Good afternoon.

22 Q. Talking again about the Shkoza units, I'd direct your attention

23 to the time early on, just after mid-March 1998. You talked earlier

24 about being based in Acareva at this time. How many Shkoza units were

25 there in March and May 1998?

Page 2209

1 A. In the beginning, there was only one. But until May, there were

2 two or three units, Shkoza.

3 Q. Okay. Is that -- and what were their names? Can you describe

4 how they were identified?

5 A. Shkoza 1, 2, and 3.

6 Q. All right. And in June, were there any additional Shkoza units

7 added?

8 A. There were different units.

9 Q. All right. In May, which units were you responsible for?

10 A. Until I was a commander of the area, of the zone, I was

11 responsible only for this unit.

12 Q. Which unit?

13 A. The Shkoza unit.

14 Q. Okay. Now, I just want to be clear. Which Shkoza unit? Shkoza

15 1, 2, or 3?

16 A. We used to communicate. When I was with Shkoza 1, we

17 communicated by radio. In the beginning, I had two or three soldiers.

18 Then we had some other soldiers, and we communicated with Shkoza 1 and

19 Shkoza 2. It was a group.

20 Q. Okay. And with this group - let's talk about the end of May -

21 which units were under your command?

22 A. Shkoza 1, the Shkoza unit.

23 Q. Then --

24 A. Until I became commander.

25 [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 2210


2 Q. And tell us again, just for the record here, when you became

3 commander.

4 A. About the end of May.

5 Q. And before you became that -- were promoted to that command at

6 the end of May, what were the names of the other -- the commanders of the

7 other Shkoza units?

8 A. We were several friends that we acted together. There was Avni

9 Hoxha, Hysni Shabani. I can't remember all the names but we acted

10 together. We operated together.

11 Q. All right. And by the end of June, which units were under your

12 command?

13 A. By the end of June, after I became a commander -- what do you

14 mean? After I became a commander?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. As a commander?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. All the units.

19 Q. And can you name those units at that time, at the end of June,

20 all the units which were under your command?

21 A. After I was appointed commander of the Drenica zone, we started

22 to unite all the units into a brigade.

23 Q. Again, my question was: Can you please name all the units which

24 were under your command at the end of June.

25 A. Well, until these units existed as units, I was not commander of

Page 2211

1 all those units. But when they united together in a brigade, the Alpha,

2 the Guri, the Mali, the Pellumbi, the Sandokan, all these became one as a

3 brigade.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. Nothing further.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE PARKER: I wonder, General, whether you could help me with

9 a little matter about this time that you became commander of the Drenica

10 zone. I understand that that was about the end of May of 1998? Is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 JUDGE PARKER: At that time, were there any military police in

14 the Drenica zone?

15 A. We were thinking of creating a military police, but it had not

16 been structured yet as such.

17 JUDGE PARKER: So that, as I understand from what you're saying,

18 there would have been no military police in the Drenica zone in May of

19 1998?

20 A. In May 1998, before I took the duty of the commander, there were

21 no military police. When I took this responsibility as a commander of

22 the zone, I also took the responsibility of organising the military

23 police.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE PARKER: Did you know of the presence of military police in

Page 2212

1 any other zone in May of 1998?

2 A. No. I had no awareness of that.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Who would have been commander of the Drenica zone

4 in the middle of 19 -- of May 1998?

5 A. You mean of the military police?

6 JUDGE PARKER: No, of the Drenica zone, of the KLA.

7 A. Middle of March?

8 JUDGE PARKER: Middle of May 1998.

9 A. I was appointed by the General Staff as a commander of the

10 Drenica zone.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Did you issue any order or instruction as a

12 programme for military police in May of 1998?

13 A. It is possible, because when the decision came from the General

14 Staff, after all the units got together and were forming a brigade and a

15 zone and the proposal came from the General Staff, I started upon their

16 decision to create the zone but also create the military police. But as

17 I said, the brigades as well.

18 JUDGE PARKER: I'm confused, you see, by your evidence as to when

19 these various things happened. I am particularly interested about the

20 middle of May 1998. And I understand from what you've just said you may

21 then have issued an order in respect of military police, an order

22 described as a programme for military police. Is that correct?

23 A. It is possible.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Does that mean that already by the middle of May

25 1998 there was an instruction or an order from the General Staff for

Page 2213

1 there to be military police units?

2 A. It is possible.

3 JUDGE PARKER: And was there already an instruction by that time

4 for there to be brigades formed?

5 A. At that time, the brigades began to be formed, yes.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

7 Did you ever in May of 1998 issue an instruction that a person

8 who left the front line would be imprisoned by the military police?

9 A. I can't remember.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Would that have occurred?

11 A. I don't remember. I'm speaking frankly here. I don't remember.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Why I'm asking this is you -- I rather understood

13 from your evidence yesterday that military police was something that

14 occurred much later, perhaps September of 1998, and yet some of the other

15 parts of your evidence suggested that it could be earlier. And from what

16 you're now saying, that might have been as early as the middle of May

17 1998.

18 A. In order to be clear, our strategy was -- even before I became a

19 commander, the strategy was for us to develop, to unite, to create an

20 army. Because we had separate groups, and very often with commanders of

21 the points, of the units, or the fire points, as we called them, we

22 discussed things together and we discussed about the creation of

23 brigades, of the police, and so on. This was how it was. And this

24 procedure continued until the end of 1998, because we couldn't

25 consolidate ourselves. We were fighting all the time, and the conditions

Page 2214

1 were such that we couldn't.

2 JUDGE PARKER: The purpose of my questions arises from the

3 document that has been placed before us, which is at tab 13. And I

4 wonder if the witness could be shown that in the form that is in the

5 Albanian language.

6 Is that a document that you recognise, General?

7 A. The copy that I have in front of me here is not very clear. It's

8 not clearly legible. I can't see the signature here. Do you have

9 another copy that I could see better?

10 JUDGE PARKER: I think the answer is no.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: We can try to blow it up perhaps on Sanction, Your

12 Honour, or try to retrieve the actual original from the evidence vault

13 possibly. However, it may assist, the witness does speak quite good

14 English. He may be able to -- it may help him to look at the English

15 version as well for the content.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Well, if you can attempt on Sanction, and in the

17 meantime, General, if you would look at the English version, in case that

18 assists you.

19 A. It is clear to me what's written here, but I'm not clear about

20 the signature, who's the person that has signed this document.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. That is not clear, I think, to any of us.

22 I understood from your evidence -- your answers a little while ago,

23 though, that you would have been the commander of Drenica in the middle

24 of May 1998. Is that correct?

25 A. The talks and the meetings continued until the middle of May. It

Page 2215

1 was by the end of May that I was appointed commander of the zone.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Who was the commander before you?

3 A. Before me, it was Adem Jashari.

4 JUDGE PARKER: He had died, as I understand it, in March. Is

5 that correct?

6 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.

7 JUDGE PARKER: I'm wondering who might have issued an order on

8 the 13th of May, 1998 as commander of Drenica.

9 A. I understand your question, but until the end of May I was not

10 appointed by the General Staff as a commander -- as the commander of the

11 zone. I don't know who has signed this. I would like to see the

12 original and say who has been the one that has signed this document. If

13 it has been me, I would say that it's been me.

14 It's illegible here.

15 JUDGE PARKER: I wonder if we could go to the content of it. The

16 first item of the programme is one that "A soldier who leaves the front

17 line without permission of the commander will be imprisoned by the

18 military police."

19 A. Yes, that's what the document says.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Is that in accordance with your understanding of

21 things in May of 1998?

22 A. Well, it was still confusion that was reigning, and we were still

23 in the process of structuring.


25 The sixth item is that "If soldiers attempt to cause problems for

Page 2216

1 the police, the police have the right to use physical force against the

2 soldier." Is that in accordance with your understanding of the position

3 in the middle of May 1998?

4 A. Well, I'll say it again: I see the contents of this document,

5 but I don't know who signed this. It might be that I have never -- I had

6 never seen this document before. So if somebody could bring the original

7 for me to see who signed this document, it would be better. I'm not sure

8 who signed this document as a commander.

9 JUDGE PARKER: I agree very much with you that one question is:

10 Who did sign it? But I am asking beyond that to try and understand the

11 time table, as it were, that I understood from your evidence about

12 military police and what this document seems to suggest. And it seems to

13 suggest that there was an existence of military police and a programme

14 for them as early as the middle of May 1998. And that's why I'm asking

15 whether that accords with your understanding of the situation in May of

16 1998.

17 A. Maybe this document would form the basis of the work of the

18 military police, when it started to work, and they might work upon this

19 document when they operated.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Powles, that was an issue that was of interest

23 to the Chamber.

24 MR. POWLES: Yes.

25 JUDGE PARKER: I think most directly affects the

Page 2217

1 cross-examination on behalf of your client.

2 MR. POWLES: Yes.

3 JUDGE PARKER: And because of that, if you wished, we would

4 certainly allow you to reopen your cross-examination on the issue.

5 MR. POWLES: Your Honour, yes. I was about to ask --

6 JUDGE PARKER: Oh, yes.

7 MR. POWLES: -- the Chamber if I could be granted leaf to ask one

8 or two questions on behalf of that.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Powles:

10 Q. General, could I ask one or two questions arising out of the

11 questions put to you of the Trial Chamber. It's right, isn't it,

12 General, that these zones were developing at different rates within

13 Kosovo during 1998, the KLA zones?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... some developing faster than

16 others.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it's right, isn't it, General, that the Drenica zone, the

19 zone for which you were the commander, was the fastest developing zone?

20 A. Yes, that's how it was.

21 Q. And that you became the commander of that zone in May of 1998.

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. And that one of the things that you wished to develop in that

24 zone were -- was the establishment of a military police unit.

25 A. Yes.

Page 2218

1 Q. That it's possible that efforts were taken to establish such a

2 unit in May of 1998.

3 A. There were efforts, as I said, efforts about the military police,

4 the military hospital, the brigades. Everything was being organised.

5 Q. And it's right, isn't it, General, that the situation in the

6 other zones within Kosovo may have been very different to that within

7 Drenica at that time?

8 A. Yes, of course. All the zones were different from each other.

9 They had different problems to tackle with.

10 Q. It's -- maybe you can help with this, General, that a time came

11 within the conflict in Kosovo that a military police formation was

12 established that was a unified military police for the KLA that covered

13 the whole of Kosovo?

14 A. Later -- I don't know whether they covered the whole of Kosovo,

15 but I know that they covered Drenica later on.

16 Q. And when would that be?

17 A. You mean only about the territory of Drenica?

18 Q. Drenica and a more -- if you could deal first with Drenica.

19 A. Well, I'll speak about Drenica because I was there myself and I

20 was a protagonist there.

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. So as soon as I was appointed a commander, I started the process.

23 Very often we were not able to consolidate, but we tried our best.

24 Q. It may be something that you can't help with, General, but can

25 you assist the Trial Chamber with saying when, if at all, a more unified

Page 2219












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2220

1 military police formation was established for the whole of Kosovo?

2 A. I don't know. It would be better if somebody from the General

3 Staff answered that question. I don't know. I'm not clear about the

4 time.

5 MR. POWLES: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Powles.

7 Mr. Nicholls, is there anything that you would wish to raise by

8 further re-examination arising from that?

9 MR. NICHOLLS: Not yet at this moment, Your Honour, but it

10 appears that in a moment we may be able to have a better original with a

11 -- which was translated separately, but it's the same document. Mr.

12 Younis is trying to find that at the moment. It should be shortly, if we

13 can compare these.

14 JUDGE PARKER: We actually might wait a moment.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: Or possibly, Your Honour, if we could adjourn for

16 five or ten minutes, we'd then be able to also get hard copies and ensure

17 that this is the same document, the same translation.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE PARKER: In the circumstances, we will adjourn, then, and

20 resume hopefully by quarter past?


22 --- Break taken at 3.07 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 3.19 p.m.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, we've been able to find U001-7883.

Page 2221

1 It is the same programme or order for the military police, the same

2 content, dated the 13th of May, 1998.

3 We have the original of that document in the Albanian language,

4 U001-7883. I'd ask that those be put before the witness. They have been

5 passed out to all present in the courtroom. And we have then on Sanction

6 as well.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: But also at this time - I think it might be

9 helpful to do it now for the witness - could the witness be given the

10 document behind tab 16. That's U000-7849, dated 14 July 1998.

11 Further re-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

12 Q. Now, sir, is that programme for military police, both dated 13th

13 May, 1998, the one you've got before you now and the one which His Honour

14 was asking you questions about, is that the same order, the same

15 programme?

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. If I might, Mr. Nicholls. I believe

17 that the original document is entitled somewhat differently than the

18 translation. The translation is entitled "Programme for Military

19 Police." And I certainly do not speak Albanian, but it is clear that the

20 original has the words "Plan, Programme." And then after that I'm not

21 sure. I'm assuming that that's something "police," and the last word I'm

22 assuming is "military." So I think just for purposes of clarification of

23 the record it's important to recognise that there is from the outset a

24 distinction between the title of the two documents.


Page 2222

1 Q. General, please tell us, looking at the original in your version,

2 what is the title of this document?

3 A. The title of this document is "Plan, Programme of the Military

4 Police."

5 Q. Now, on U001-7883, there's a signature at the bottom on the

6 original over your typed name. Do you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Whose signature is that?

9 A. This is not my signature. I don't know whose signature it is.

10 Q. Can you read the signature in your language? Can you read the

11 name?

12 A. Yes. The signature is of Shaban Shala, signed by him. But this

13 is not my signature.

14 Q. Who is Shaban Shala?

15 A. Shaban Shala has been a member of the Kosovo Liberation Army.

16 Q. Was he a subordinate of yours?

17 A. No, he -- he's never been my subordinate.

18 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, at this juncture, for the sake of

19 clarification, I would find it extremely useful, and it's my application

20 that the provenance of this document be established. Of course, this is

21 a document which has not been exhibited. It's a document that we know

22 nothing about its origins and -- from my learned friends that it may have

23 come from the Serbs. But I think provenance ought to be established be

24 it as a condition precedent to its formal admission. In any event, it

25 goes to weight, of course. But, Your Honour, perhaps that clarification

Page 2223

1 can be given now for the assistance of the Court and of course of the

2 witness.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Certainly, Mr. Khan, the provenance of the

4 document will be an issue for its admission into evidence and for any

5 significance in the end to be attached to it. Its content though is such

6 that the issues that are now being examined need to be examined while the

7 witness is here. And I think that's what we need to do now. And what

8 can be made of it later will be in the hands perhaps of other witnesses

9 as to its prominence.

10 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, of course your point is, as always, well

11 made and well taken. My point was, rather -- at the moment the document

12 has just appeared, as it were. It hasn't actually been properly

13 admitted. That was the thrust of my observation, Your Honour. I'm

14 grateful.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Well, as you know, in the process that's been

16 followed certainly in this trial, documents have simply been placed by

17 each side before the Chamber, and in the absence of protest, we have been

18 prepared to look at them and act upon them.

19 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, often it's very useful.


21 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful.

22 JUDGE PARKER: But if there is an issue as to provenance, that

23 has to be resolved. Yeah. But we are now -- I wonder whether the 17883

24 might be given a little prominence on the screen for the moment in its

25 original version, Albanian.

Page 2224

1 Thank you.

2 And as I understand the evidence of the witness, is that this,

3 although appearing above his typed name as "komandant" is in fact -- the

4 document is in fact signed not by him but by another person. And I think

5 that's where we are at, Mr. Nicholls.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.

7 Q. Where was Shaban Shala stationed in mid-May 1998?

8 A. In mid-May 1998, he was probably based at his home place, where

9 he was born.

10 Q. And do you know where that is?

11 A. I don't know it exactly.

12 Q. Was he stationed in mid-1998 in the Drenica region?

13 A. Yes. Upon my appointment as a zone commander and at the staff

14 headquarters of my zone, he was stationed there.

15 Q. And what was his --

16 A. As head of the public relations.

17 Q. And what were his responsibilities or duties as head of public

18 relations at that time?

19 A. We communicated with the public to deal with issues that the

20 citizens were in need of in the operational zone of Drenica.

21 Q. Did you ever have written orders or decisions or other documents

22 which you issued as Drenica commander signed for you when you weren't

23 able to sign them yourself?

24 A. It might have been possible that someone else might have signed

25 those documents, but when I was present there, I have signed those

Page 2225

1 documents. There was no need for someone else to sign. But I have not

2 been present all the time in this zone.

3 Q. All right. And you spoke in your direct testimony that you gave

4 oral orders and written orders and that you would follow up oral orders

5 later on with written orders or decisions. So just to clarify. You've

6 said if you weren't -- there was no need for you to sign [sic] if you

7 were present. If you weren't present, what would the procedure be?

8 A. Probably my subordinate or the chief of the staff who was my

9 subordinate, then he would sign those documents. I'm talking about the

10 operational issues. As about the civil issues or organisational issues,

11 there were various sectors who were in charge of those issues.

12 Q. All right. I'd like you to look at another document, U000-7849

13 is the English translation. U000-7849 is also the ERN number assigned to

14 the Albanian original. In the English, the title of this document is

15 "Announcement." It's dated 14 July 1998.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, this is behind tab 16.

17 Q. Could you take a look at that document, sir, tell me after you've

18 familiarised yourself with it if you recognise it.

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour. Is -- I think I have the

20 -- the proper document. Is that 7849, did you say? Yes, it --


22 MR. GUY-SMITH: We seem to be moving on to another topic, one

23 that is outside the questions asked by the Court as well as the questions

24 that were generated by Mr. Powles with regard to issues concerning

25 military police.

Page 2226

1 MR. NICHOLLS: I think, if Mr. Guy-Smith --

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: And on that basis, since the subject matter we

3 have been addressing is that of military police, I would object to this

4 line of questioning.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Your submission, Mr. Nicholls.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: This goes directly to the other issue raised by my

7 friend, the authentication of the other document. This is a related

8 issue. I think it --

9 JUDGE PARKER: You're saying you're dealing -- going to this

10 document purely on the question of signature and authentication; is that

11 it?

12 MR. NICHOLLS: That's right.

13 JUDGE PARKER: You're not going otherwise to deal with the content

14 of it?

15 MR. NICHOLLS: No, the content is not at issue. The issue is the

16 practice at that time and the signatures.

17 JUDGE PARKER: On that basis, Mr. Guy-Smith, I would allow the

18 question. Or questioning.

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, Your Honour, to the extent that we're now

20 dealing with the -- the specific time frame of July, I have no objection.

21 If Mr. Nicholls seeks to go back in time by utilising this document, I do

22 have an objection.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Time will tell.


25 Q. Have you had a chance to look at the document, General?

Page 2227

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Whose signature is it above your typed name at the bottom of the

3 document?

4 A. It is the signature of the same person. It is clearly seen.

5 Q. That same person, for the record, being Shaban Shala?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what else is written next to your name at the bottom of the

8 document in your language other than the signature of Shaban Shala?

9 A. I see that it is written the name "commander." It is my name and

10 it is signed by Shaban Shala.

11 Q. Yes. And what is written just before your name? There's a small

12 piece of handwriting to the left of your first name.

13 A. It is written "For Shaban Shala."

14 Q. All right. And do you remember -- well, I'll leave that.

15 Do you recognize the signature there?

16 A. Which signature are you talking about?

17 Q. Shaban Shala's.

18 A. I don't know whether this is -- I don't know whether this is his

19 signature or not, but this is what -- what is written there.

20 Q. When documents were signed for you, would you after -- what would

21 you do after that with those documents? Would you review those

22 documents?

23 A. It is not clear to me what you are asking me.

24 Q. Well, I'll try to be a bit more specific. If an order or a

25 document or a programme is signed in your name, as we saw one yesterday,

Page 2228

1 or if one is signed for you, is there any difference to the weight of

2 those documents?

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, Your Honour, that question certainly goes

4 far afield.

5 JUDGE PARKER: You're ahead of me, but we're on the same tack --

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you so much.

7 JUDGE PARKER: -- Mr. Guy-Smith. I think we can leave that

8 question without an answer, Mr. Nicholls.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I'll move to admit this document,

10 U008-7849.

11 [Prosecution counsel confer]

12 JUDGE PARKER: For the purpose of signature only, I take it?

13 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm going to move all three in, Your Honour, for

14 the purpose, yes, of the signature and for the practice that the

15 documents -- it's another document signed for him.

16 JUDGE PARKER: You just said "all three." What do you mean by

17 that?

18 MR. NICHOLLS: I intend to admit both versions of the "Programme

19 for Police."

20 JUDGE PARKER: Well, can we say that on the issue of signature of

21 an announcement from the Drenica operational headquarters the document at

22 16, ending 849, would be admitted; the documents at 13 are the subject of

23 a yet unresolved dispute as to provenance. They would be -- at the

24 moment they would be marked for identification.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, if we could provisionally admit tab 13, Your

Page 2229

1 Honour, and also the clearer copy which we've provided.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: That should have a separate --

4 JUDGE PARKER: On the basis indicated, the document at tab 16

5 will be -- which is an announcement dated the 14th of July, 1998, from

6 the Drenica operational headquarters, will be received.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit No. P94.

8 JUDGE PARKER: And the plan, programme for military police, dated

9 13 May 1998 of the Drenica headquarters will be marked for

10 identification.

11 MR. KHAN: And, Your Honour, just for the record - and I

12 apologise for standing - just a clarification. My learned friend says

13 that they were sought to be exhibited as another document signed for him,

14 meaning, I suppose, signed for this witness. Your Honour, of course,

15 there's no evidence that it has in fact been signed for this witness, and

16 the record should be clear on that point.


18 THE REGISTRAR: P95, marked for identification.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Additionally, Your Honour.


21 MR. NICHOLLS: U001-7883.

22 JUDGE PARKER: And what document is that? The better quality

23 original; is that it?

24 MR. NICHOLLS: That's correct, Your Honour.


Page 2230

1 MR. NICHOLLS: That's right.

2 JUDGE PARKER: That will be also marked for identification.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 THE REGISTRAR: P95.1 MFI, marked for identification.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: For the record as well, Your Honour, these

6 documents that we provided during the break have been disclosed

7 previously to the Defence, as well as having been provided copies just

8 now.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

10 Now, is there anything further --

11 MR. GUY-SMITH: To ensure Mr. Nicholls that there's no issue with

12 regard to late disclosure.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 MR. NICHOLLS: If I may ask one or two additional questions, Your

15 Honour.


17 Q. General Selimi, in May of 1998, when you signed or otherwise

18 issued written orders, documents, how were they disseminated?

19 A. By the end of May 1998 -- you're talking about that period?

20 Q. Let's say all of May 1998. If there was a change, you can

21 explain what it was. How were documents from you disseminated as

22 necessary during that period?

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think based upon this particular witness's

24 testimony, that characterisation, meaning all of May of 1998, may be a

25 mis -- a bit misleading and confusing to the Trial Chamber, and I would

Page 2231

1 suggest that this witness has made it clear as to when he obtained his

2 position as commander or commandant, and therefore his written orders

3 would be occurring not throughout May of 1998 but during a certain period

4 of that month.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Your observation that the date is clear is perhaps

6 a little ambitious, but I agree there is a change of status sometime

7 around May of 1998.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm working for it.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: That's my concern, Your Honour.

10 Q. When you issued decisions, let's say, mid-May 1998, how were they

11 disseminated?

12 A. It depends whether I was there and then they were disseminated

13 right away.

14 Q. And did you ever have to deliver or have delivered written

15 decisions to several places, several units?

16 A. I do not remember.

17 Q. Well, if you had a written decision, you'd made a written order

18 that applied to several units, how would they receive that order? Try to

19 remember.

20 A. They would be notified. All the brigade commanders and the unit

21 commander would have been notified about that order.

22 Q. And let me try it this way: One of the documents we looked at

23 yesterday or the day before. Did you ever have to make multiple copies

24 of documents in order to place them in different areas, in archives or to

25 be delivered to different places and stored?

Page 2232

1 A. Again, I do not remember. It's been a long time.

2 Q. Were copies or were documents ever -- that were intended for

3 units. Were copies ever also delivered to the Main -- to the General

4 Staff?

5 A. It might have been possible.

6 Q. Now, if that was possible, if that was necessary, would the

7 document be typed up multiple times and signed by you multiple times, or

8 did you have sort of any copying facilities available?

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, with regard to that question, Mr. Nicholls

10 has taken two distinct concepts and included it in one question, which

11 makes it a misleading question.

12 JUDGE PARKER: A valid comment. Becoming a bit of a habit by, I

13 think, every counsel so far though.


15 Q. Did you have copying facilities at that time? And I'll talk now

16 about May 1998.

17 A. I don't know. We had some at the time, but at the beginning we

18 had only a typewriter and later we had some facilities for some time and

19 then they were burned during the war.

20 Q. When you only had the typewriter, if you remember, were multiple

21 copies of the same document ever typed up?

22 A. It might have been possible. I don't know.

23 [Prosecution counsel confer]

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Nothing further. Thank you.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

Page 2233

1 I looked along the Defence table then in case any counsel felt

2 that there was need for any further exploration of any issue. I see no

3 inclination.

4 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE PARKER: General, I'm pleased to be able to tell you that

6 that is the end of your questioning. The Chamber is grateful for your

7 assistance and thanks you for having come to the Tribunal to assist the

8 Chamber. You are now, of course, free to return to Kosovo. Thank you

9 very much.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too. It was my pleasure

11 to express here what I feel and what I've experienced.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Nicholls -- oh, Mr. Whiting.

14 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'll address this.

15 Unfortunately, Your Honour, the Prosecution doesn't have

16 available another witness for this week as the result of a scheduling

17 problem. We will have our next witness available on Monday, and

18 thereafter we'll endeavour to fill every week as best we can. But our

19 apologies for that.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Well, we had received some indication,

21 I think, yesterday that this may be an issue.

22 In the circumstances, the appropriate course would appear to be

23 to adjourn now until Monday, bearing in mind that Friday was a holiday in

24 any event.

25 That being so, we will resume on Monday at 2.15.

Page 2234

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.51 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Monday, the 24th day of

3 January, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.