Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3205

1 Wednesday, 9 February 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Once again it was necessary for

6 us to start late for the staff to be able to complete their work

7 following this morning's proceedings.

8 Mr. Nicholls, are we ready to continue?

9 MR. NICHOLLS: We're ready, Your Honour, if we could bring the

10 witness in.

11 JUDGE PARKER: The witness. Thank you.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, Mr. Karpuzi.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE PARKER: We continue now with your evidence.

16 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

17 Could I remind you that the affirmation you made at the beginning

18 still applies.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examined by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]

23 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Karpuzi.

24 A. Good afternoon, sir.

25 Q. When we left off yesterday, you'd been telling us how in mid-June

Page 3206

1 and into July you had split your duties; part of the time you were

2 keeping records, and you told us about that duty, and the other time you

3 spent you said as a guard duty observing the terrain. And I want to ask

4 you a few questions now about that aspect of your duty in July 1998

5 observing the terrain. Okay?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you remember in July 1998 if the position you were assigned to

8 to observe the terrain, if it had a special -- a specific name or number?

9 A. Yes. It was point 1.

10 Q. And you talked about this a little bit on your first day of

11 testimony when you talked about observing the Komorane Serb checkpoint,

12 but could you describe what your duties were when you were at position 1

13 in July 1998?

14 A. My duty was to observe the terrain, to see the movements of the

15 enemy, to check how many forces were heading towards Komorane and Cuka,

16 how can of them came, how many of them left -- I mean the Serb forces.

17 Q. And as part of this was traffic on the Pristina-Peja road

18 monitored?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, this observation from point 1, how many hours during a

21 24-hour day would somebody with observing from position 1 during July

22 1998?

23 A. Maybe four, six hours depending on the soldiers -- on the number

24 of soldiers. If we were two in a shift, it might be four or six. I

25 don't remember accurately how many hours.

Page 3207

1 Q. And how many shifts were there in a day?

2 A. We had non-stop shifts. We kept surveillance for 24 hours.

3 Q. Thank you. During this surveillance would any notes be taken of

4 what you observed?

5 A. I'm not sure. I think yes, but I cannot tell you for sure. To

6 my recollection we used to keep notes about the number of the enemy

7 forces that came and left.

8 Q. Now, do you remember the names -- I should say pseudonyms of any

9 of the soldiers who served with you at position 1 during July 1998?

10 A. Yes, I remember some of them like Uka, Graniti, Motori. I don't

11 remember more than these because a long time has passed since that.

12 Q. That's fine. I'd like to now show you a book. This is U002-3460

13 through U002-3492. I have a copy here which I've tabbed for the witness.

14 You can open that up, Witness, maybe to the first tab which is an entry

15 for 2nd of July, which would be page 4 of the English text. First of

16 all, do you remember whether I showed you this book on Sunday when we

17 met?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you remember -- take a look at that 2nd of July entry.

20 Does your pseudonym appear anywhere on the page, Shala? That should be

21 the first page with a red tab on it to help you find it. It's -- it has

22 the number 3465 on the end -- on the page on your version.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And who does it say were the other soldiers who were on shift you

25 on that date?

Page 3208

1 A. Here it's written Shala, Motori, Hoxha.

2 Q. Okay. Do you remember whether Hoxha ever was on duty with you at

3 position 1?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And if you just look at the entries from that shift which you

6 were on, I'm not going to ask you if you specifically remember the

7 entries that are written down there, if you specifically remember, for

8 instance, the white Land Rover that is referred to, but do these appear

9 to be the types of entries that are noted down?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you now to look at the entry for the 22nd

12 of July. That's on page 37 of our English version, and it should be the

13 last red tab in your version, sir. It will be the last page with a red

14 sticker on it, sir, if I've marked it correctly. Do you see your

15 pseudonym, Shala, on that page?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And which other soldiers were serving with you on that day, on

18 22nd of July, does it say?

19 A. It's written Gazi also here.

20 Q. And again, if you look at the entries on that page, are those the

21 types of entries which you would have made when you were on duty

22 observing the terrain?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, does that book appear to you to be an accurate

25 photocopy of the notebook from position 1 when you served there in July?

Page 3209

1 Can you tell?

2 A. I believe so, yes.

3 Q. Thank you. That's all I have for the moment.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd ask to admit that, Your Honour, and give it a

5 number.


7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Prosecution Exhibit

8 P129.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: And it should be the English and Albanian

10 versions.

11 THE REGISTRAR: P129 will be the Albanian version and P129A will

12 be the English.


14 Q. I'm done with that, Mr. Karpuzi, thank you.

15 Sir, please look at this image. This is image 8 from Exhibit P1.

16 If we could put that on the ELMO. I believe we looked at this photo

17 yesterday and we also looked at it on Sunday when I met you.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: If we can give the witness a pen.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


21 Q. Now, first of all before you mark that, on the 26th of July

22 during the battle were you at position 1 or were you at a different

23 position during the fighting on the 26th of July, 1998?

24 A. I was at position 2. When some soldiers went to Rahovec to take

25 care of the population, we, some soldiers, had to move from position

Page 3210

1 number 1 to position number 2 in the absence of these soldiers.

2 Q. Okay. And when -- as close as you can remember when was the date

3 when you were moved from position 1 to position 2?

4 A. I don't remember accurately.

5 Q. All right. Do you remember approximately how long you had been

6 at position 2 before the fighting started?

7 A. Maybe three or four days, even five maybe. I'm not sure.

8 Q. Okay. If you look at the image to your left - familiarise

9 yourself with that for a moment - could you try to find the point of

10 position 2 where you were on duty during the fighting on the battle of

11 26th July 1998. Take your time if you need to.

12 A. You want me to mark it?

13 Q. Yes. If you can mark it, why don't you write a 2 where you think

14 -- where you remember you were at position 2 on this photograph.

15 A. You mean on the 26th? Because on the 25th I was at another

16 position. It was also called number 2, but when I was injured on that

17 day I was on a higher position.

18 Q. Okay. Why don't you mark first where you were on the 26th of

19 July at a position when you were injured. Mark that with a number "2."

20 A. [Witness complies]

21 MR. NICHOLLS: And the witness has made a mark at a road near

22 where three roads meet. I think it's hard to read as a 2.

23 Q. Maybe we can give you a better pen or could you make a bigger 2

24 there, sir, please.

25 A. [Witness complies]

Page 3211

1 Q. All right. Now, could you also mark position 1, which is where

2 you were, talking about the bulk of July, when you were on duty observing

3 the terrain.

4 A. It may not be very accurate because I can't see it very well, but

5 it is approximately there.

6 Q. I'm sorry. Could you mark that with a little bit larger number

7 1, please. I can't see it on the screen.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Marking is fine while the ink is wet.


10 Q. Let's give you a different pen and see if that works better.

11 Sorry, sir. Try to use that pen to mark position 1.

12 A. If it works, yes.

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. [Witness complies]

15 Q. And make it large. You can use more ink.

16 A. I don't think that you can see now the red marking on top of the

17 white one.

18 Q. I think that's probably sufficient. And could you draw an arrow

19 to position 1, just draw an arrow right to where you've marked position

20 1.

21 A. You mean to draw a circle there?

22 Q. No. If you could, just draw a line with an arrow pointing to

23 position 1 to make it a little bit clearer.

24 A. [Witness complies]

25 Q. That's good. Thank you.

Page 3212

1 And now could you try to point out the other position which you

2 said you were at immediately before you moved to the position you've

3 indicated with a 2, where you were on the 26th of July, 1998, during the

4 fighting. Where is that third position?

5 A. You are talking about the 25th because I already marked the

6 position on the 26th.

7 Q. Yes, exactly. If you could mark the position you were at on the

8 25th. Mark that with a 3, a large 3, please.

9 A. [Witness complies]

10 Q. All right. Now, you can refer to that diagram if you need to,

11 but could you please briefly describe to me the battle of the 26th July

12 1998 as it appeared to you from your perspective at position 2.

13 A. On Sunday the forces were at a great distance. There were over

14 400 vehicles. In the evening of Friday when we saw them coming from

15 Pristina road, all the soldiers took up positions. And we counted them

16 entering in the direction of Drenoc and Komorane from Cuka. There were

17 over 400 vehicles. It was night, Friday night, when we saw them. It was

18 about midnight. Yes, it was Friday.

19 On Saturday, on the 25th, they started shelling early morning,

20 but from a distance. They used all possible means at their disposal --

21 at the disposal of the Yugoslav army. They used them -- all ammunitions

22 against us. It was sometime in the evening of 25th that we saw some

23 green shells being fired -- blue, sorry. After four or five minutes we

24 felt drowsy and sleepy; it was because of some poison and we -- our tears

25 -- our eyes started to shed tears. It was the poison that made us feel

Page 3213

1 that bad. When the shells fell near us, we felt like we were in a coma

2 and we asked each other whether we were alive.

3 In the evening we withdrew from that position because the Serb

4 forces came very near, maybe 50, 60 metres away from us. The tanks were

5 positioned there. And tanks started to fire at us. They played music.

6 They were celebrating. We didn't have heavy vehicles to fight back at

7 them, heavy armaments. So on the 26th we were on this high ground

8 position and we waited until the tanks set out in the direction of the

9 position where I was located. They fired at us as hard as they could.

10 While they stopped for a while firing to see whether anyone was still

11 alive, I attempted to fire a mortar at them; it was about 120, 30 metres

12 from the position I was in. The first three shells did -- were not

13 activated. The fourth one I think was activated when the tank was close.

14 The fourth one, as I said, this one I managed to fire at the tank and I

15 managed -- I hit it. But when -- because of the explosion, there were

16 two barrels of oil -- with oil which also exploded. There were some

17 soldiers, policemen, paramilitaries, they were not dressed in green

18 uniform, but with dark blue uniforms. And I saw two bodies flying up in

19 the air because of the explosion.

20 The second tank which was next to the first one coming -- of

21 course the tank saw the explosion and it fired at us, it shelled us. And

22 we all were -- flew up in the air. When we fell on the ground -- as I

23 said yesterday, I had had an injury. So when I fell back on the ground,

24 I had -- again I broke my hip. And I told my comrades to withdraw. Isak

25 Demiri was one of the comrades. He pulled me and we started to walk

Page 3214

1 about -- to withdraw in the direction of the hill. We went behind the

2 hill. I remember what happened until that moment; then I no longer

3 remembered what happened.

4 Q. And did you receive any medical treatment for these injuries?

5 Did you get any help?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. Could you describe where you were treated.

8 A. I saw myself in Klecke in an ambulance, a makeshift ambulance. I

9 didn't know where I was, but I know that the other patients who were

10 there told me we were in Klecka and we were being treated. I stayed

11 there for two weeks I think. For 11 days I kept count, but my comrades

12 told me that for two or three days I had lost consciousness, so I didn't

13 remember how long exactly I stayed there.

14 Q. Did you see Isak Musliu in Lapusnik on the 26th of July, 1998?

15 A. On the 25th I remember having seen him. On the 26th it was

16 impossible to see anything because of the shelling, because we were

17 staying in that position, whereas Isak Musliu was positioned in another

18 place.

19 Q. On your first day of testimony you talked about how Isak Musliu

20 was present all the time in Lapusnik until the gorge fell, and that's on

21 page 34 of the LiveNote for that day. But you also said that at some

22 point he went to Rahovec to help in those villages. When did he go to

23 Rahovec and when did he return, if you know?

24 A. I do not know for sure whether it was during the time we passed

25 from position number 1 to rainforest position number 2. I know that

Page 3215

1 these soldiers were helping the population to leave Rahovec. So I do not

2 remember accurately whether it was the 16th, 17th, or 18th. I don't want

3 to lie.

4 Q. All right. If you don't remember, that's fine. When you were

5 evacuated or taken somehow to Klecka on the 26th of July after you'd been

6 injured in the fighting, what happened to the records you had been

7 keeping in Gzim Gashi's compound, do you know?

8 A. No, I don't know what happened with them.

9 Q. Do you know whether anybody was able to retrieve those, before

10 the Serbs re-took the area I mean?

11 A. No, I don't know.

12 Q. I'm almost done, Witness. If you can tell us now what you did

13 very briefly after you left the makeshift hospital in Klecka.

14 A. Yes. After all the soldiers started to go back to their own

15 villages, everybody thought best to go to his own village because they

16 knew the terrain better. I did the same, so I went back to my village;

17 and my family thought I was dead. Of course I -- we rejoiced, me and

18 them, when we saw each other. Some comrades, I didn't know that they

19 were members of the KLA; some comrades from my village came and asked me,

20 Now that you are back, what can we do? Where to go? And I told them,

21 There is nowhere you can go. Your duty is to go to the population and

22 defend them against Serb police and army. So they asked me to lead them

23 even though I was in difficult -- in a bad situation, I mean physically.

24 I agreed to lead them for a month I think. And then after that period I

25 asked them to release me of that duty because I didn't feel well.

Page 3216

1 Q. Thank you very much for that explanation.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm reminded, Your Honour, if I could ask for an

3 exhibit number for the image 8 which the witness has marked.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit 130.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

7 Q. I'd like to show you five photographs now, Witness, the front and

8 back of the photographs and ask you just a few questions about those.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: We can put these on Sanction.

10 Q. The first is U007-2255 and 2256, that's the front and back of the

11 photograph. Now, do you recognise that photograph, sir?

12 A. Yes, it's myself.

13 Q. And what's written on the back of the photograph?

14 A. "November 1998, Ruzhdi V. Karpuzi (Shala)."

15 Q. Was that photograph taken of you in November of 1998?

16 A. Yes. My brother took the picture -- not only this, also some

17 others.

18 Q. All right. And who made the writing? Who typed your name and

19 the date on the back, if you know?

20 A. My brother, but this happened after the war.

21 Q. Okay.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to admit those please, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE PARKER: What do you mean by "those"?

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, it's two separate ERN numbers because it's

25 the front and the back of the photograph, but we don't have the actual

Page 3217

1 photograph in evidence, we have a copy. So it's -- it can be assigned

2 one exhibit number but it's two separate sheets of paper.

3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received as one.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P131.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. If I could have the next photos,

6 please.

7 Q. Now, again, do you recall this photo, sir?

8 A. Yeah, it's me.

9 Q. And again, this is a photo taken of you in November of 1998, with

10 the same description on the back as the previous one. Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could ask that this be admitted, Your

13 Honours.


15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P132.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, we can do that one. That's fine.

17 Q. Could you look at this photo, sir. Do you recall it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And who are the three men in this photograph?

22 A. It's me, Haxhi Shala, and Rexhep Bajrami.

23 Q. And could you just read what is typed on the back of the card.

24 A. "Ruzhdi Karpuzi, Shal; Haxhi Shala; Rexhep Bajrami Leletiq".

25 Q. And what is the date on the photo?

Page 3218

1 A. December 1998, "Ne Shale." And then the names "Ruzhdi Karpuzi

2 (Shala)", "Haxhi Shala (Topi)", and "Rexhep Bajrami (Kushtrimi)."

3 Q. Thank you. In the previous photographs we looked at you were not

4 in a camouflage uniform. In this photo you have a camouflage uniform.

5 If you remember, when did you get that camouflage uniform?

6 A. This photo was taken after I received the uniform.

7 Q. That's right. I just wonder if you remember when it was that you

8 received your uniform.

9 A. This I can't remember accurately. I know it was new, but I can't

10 remember the date.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd ask to admit this photograph, Your Honour.


14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P133.


16 Q. Do you recognise this photograph?

17 A. Yes, it's me. On 15th of November, when the trial started, all

18 -- everybody was looking at me with some disbelief because of some news

19 broadcast by -- from here alleging that I have said Haradin Bala wore

20 black uniform, he was responsible for the prison camp, and all -- such

21 things. I immediately informed the Tribunal office in Pristina and here

22 about this picture.

23 Q. And do you know when this photograph was taken, if you look at

24 the date on the back? Is that an accurate date that's printed there?

25 A. The date is not accurate. The date is not accurate. I can

Page 3219

1 guarantee that the date marked here is not accurate.

2 Q. Do you know when the photograph was taken?

3 A. I think it was taken in June, either May or June. I can't be

4 certain. It was taken at my home.

5 Q. And in 1998?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I'll show you one more photo, sir.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: And I'd ask that that be exhibited as well, Your

9 Honour.


11 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Prosecution Exhibit P134.


13 Q. Do you recognise this photograph, sir?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And could you explain to the Trial Chamber what's depicted in

16 this photograph, who these people are and what's going on in this photo.

17 A. This photograph was taken near the monument of Ymer Alushani in

18 Lapusnik on the occasion of the anniversary of his death. Everybody

19 could take a picture at that time, not only us.

20 Q. And do you know what year this photograph was taken, on which

21 anniversary?

22 A. It was during the anniversary of Ymer Alushani, aka Voglushi.

23 When this, I don't remember.

24 Q. Okay. I'm looking at the back. Can you just read what the top

25 two lines are, what's written on the back of the photograph.

Page 3220

1 A. On the first line there is a question mark, meaning that I didn't

2 remember the name of the person. Number 2, again, I did not remember the

3 name because a long time passed. Only Ismajli and Bokseri Fushtic;

4 Ruzhdi Karpuzi, Shale; Muhamet, I knew the guy as Muhamet, but not the

5 last name. Lulzim Thaqi (Luli) Komoran; Fatmir Gashi (Fati) Lapusnik;

6 Enver Mulaku (Bacaloku) Komoran; Ramadan Zogu (Shaban Polluzha); Agim

7 Zogaj (Motori); number 10, question mark; number 11, question mark.

8 Number 12, I knew only Sopi from Lapusnik; Bajram Bujupi (Bajra) Komoran;

9 Halil Kolushi (Kuburja), Baice [sic]; Kolshi (Homeini), Baice [sic];

10 Rrahman Nishori (Xhaxhi), Komorane; Ismet Hoxha (Baci), Nekovc [sic];

11 Haradin Bala (Shala), Korrotice; Gzim Sopi, Lapusnik; Arsim Gashi,

12 Lapusnik.

13 Q. And the very top two lines, before the numbers start, what is

14 written there in your language?

15 A. You mean at the beginning, at the top line?

16 Q. Yes. I think it says --

17 A. It says near memorial of Voglushi, Ymer Alushani, in Lapusnik.

18 Q. And do you know who typed up the words and names on the back of

19 this photograph?

20 A. My brother so that I could have them as a keepsake at that time.

21 Q. And did you tell him who the people were and he typed it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: One moment.

25 [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 3221

1 MR. NICHOLLS: If we could give this exhibit a number, Your

2 Honour.


4 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P135.


6 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Karpuzi, I don't have any further

7 questions for you at this time.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I would ask now to move into

10 evidence Mr. Karpuzi's two statements which we've been using over the

11 last two days.

12 JUDGE PARKER: And your basis for that?

13 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, they've been used extensively in my direct

14 examination; they've been used to try to refresh the witness's memory.

15 The Chamber has had them before them, so I think they should be part of

16 the record and I think that whatever weight the Chamber may decide to

17 give them could be determined later after more evidence has been

18 submitted.

19 MR. KHAN: Your Honour --


21 MR. KHAN: If it's any assistance, and without setting a

22 precedent, there's no objection for these documents to be exhibited.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Khan. Is there any other view from

24 the Defence counsel? Well, then, firstly the --

25 We seem to have dealt with three statements.

Page 3222

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Two I believe, Your Honour, unless I'm --

2 JUDGE PARKER: You're only dealing with the statement in July of

3 2003?

4 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. And the one from just this last Sunday, the

5 6th of February, 2005.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Firstly, the July 2003 will be received.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P136.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: And perhaps -- I think we should have both

9 languages, the original English and the Albanian translations.


11 THE REGISTRAR: The original of that statement, P136, in

12 Albanian; and the English translation will be Prosecution Exhibit P136A.

13 JUDGE PARKER: And then the statement of the 6th of February,

14 2005.

15 THE REGISTRAR: The statement of the 6th February, 2005, the

16 Albanian-language statement will be Prosecution Exhibit P137; and the

17 English translation, P137A.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Khan.

19 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, I'm invited to go first.

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski:

21 Q. Mr. Karpuzi, I represent Mr. Isak Musliu. If you look to your

22 left, you'll see it's me who's talking. I want to try and deal with your

23 evidence in the order in which events happened as best I can. If I've

24 understood what you told us a couple of days ago correctly, you decided

25 to join the KLA some time after the death of Adem Jashari which I suggest

Page 3223

1 took place in February of 1998, and you finally joined the KLA on the

2 18th of April that year. Have I understood your evidence correctly?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Then I just want to deal first of all, if I may please, with your

5 joining. You joined in Likovc and you tried to join more than once

6 before finally joining on the 18th of April. Again, have I correctly

7 understood your evidence?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On the occasions that you tried to join unsuccessfully before the

10 18th of April, one of the problems was, as you put it, they regretted

11 that they had no weapon to give you and you had to go and find your own.

12 Is that right?

13 A. Yes. I had several attempts to find a weapon, and eventually a

14 hunting weapon was given to me.

15 Q. But with no ammunition. Is that right?

16 A. I didn't understand the translation.

17 Q. You were not given any ammunition, bullets to fire, with the

18 hunting rifle; that's what you hold us a couple of days ago. Is that

19 right?

20 A. I'm not listening -- I can't listen to the Albanian version. In

21 the middle of the statement, then there is a break.

22 Q. I'm afraid my skills or powers of influence don't extend that

23 far. I can't help you. I'm sorry.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Can you try again with your question, Mr.

25 Topolski.

Page 3224

1 MR. TOPOLSKI: Very well, Your Honour.

2 Q. The question, Mr. Karpuzi, is this: You were given a rifle but

3 no ammunition. Is that right? Do you understand me?

4 A. Yes, I understand you. They gave me several bullets.

5 Approximately -- I can't tell you the exact number, but there were just a

6 few.

7 Q. You were given no uniform. Is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You've just been shown a number of different photographs taken

10 much later when you are wearing two different kinds of uniform, I

11 suggest, a camouflage uniform and what appears to be a black uniform.

12 First of all, would you agree with that? And if you don't, I'll show you

13 the photographs again.

14 A. Can you explain one thing here, please?

15 Q. I'll try.

16 A. In the beginning I didn't have a uniform. It was a civilian

17 gear, different civilian clothing. Some had jeans, some, let's say, had

18 black jeans and a black jacket; but mainly they were civilian clothing.

19 While in December, I don't know exactly when, I know there was snow, I

20 was given a uniform; it was in the end of 1998, sometime around December.

21 Q. If I'd been able to take a picture of you at the moment you

22 received your injury in the battle of Lapusnik on the 25th of July, would

23 we have seen you in a uniform of any kind?

24 A. No.

25 Q. What took you to Lapusnik, as I understand your evidence, on the

Page 3225

1 8th of May was that you heard detonations, explosions, from there where

2 you were in your village of Shale. Again, have I understood your

3 evidence correctly?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Would I be right in suggesting to you, Mr. Karpuzi, that the

6 village of Shale is something like 9 kilometres from Lapusnik?

7 A. Yes, approximately.

8 Q. Approximately. And what kind of explosions could you hear in

9 Shale occurring in what you thought must be Lapusnik on the 8th of May?

10 What kind of explosions were you hearing?

11 A. Explosions could be heard and I knew that combat was going on

12 somewhere. I thought it was in Komorane because it was coming from that

13 direction, and after I went there I understood correctly that that's

14 where it was -- the fight was going on.

15 Q. Maybe my question wasn't clear enough. Were you hearing shelling

16 by artillery? Were you hearing grenades? Were you hearing machine-gun

17 fire? What kind of detonations were you hearing 9 kilometres away in

18 Shale on the 8th of May?

19 A. I don't know what kind of detonations they were, but mainly there

20 were explosions, detonations. Not machine-gun fire. It was just

21 explosion.

22 Q. You travelled to Lapusnik partly by tractor. Is that right?

23 A. Up to Kishna Reka.

24 Q. And from Kishna Reka on foot?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3226

1 Q. And there you met others who had got to Lapusnik ahead of you in

2 order to fight. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Maybe 12 or 13, or am I wrong about the number?

5 A. The group that I met, so we were approximately five or six with

6 -- including me or without me, I'm not quite sure here -- but it was five

7 or six persons.

8 Q. Now, I'm going to take you through an exercise that Mr. Nicholls

9 took you through more than once, and I'm going to try and do it

10 differently in the hope that it might clear up exactly where various

11 firing positions were. Do you understand? And what I'm going to do is

12 I'm going to give you a clean version of image 8. It's not quite clean

13 because I've marked it with some numbers and some letters and I've put

14 some blank stickers on it in the hope that this might make things

15 clearer. I hold it up so the Tribunal and my friends can see it across

16 the room. Absent from any objection, I hope that we can do it like this

17 and put it on the ELMO and go through it together.

18 Sorry about the speech, Mr. Karpuzi, I'm just explaining what I'm

19 doing.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't have any objection, but could I just see

21 it? I can't see it across the room.

22 MR. TOPOLSKI: Of course. Could you just show it to Mr. Nicholls

23 first, please.

24 Thank you to Mr. Guy-Smith who's allowed me to take this sheet

25 out of his folder.

Page 3227

1 Your Honours, obviously it's the witness's evidence. Those

2 stickers can be moved and that's why they're there.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Karpuzi, have a look, please, will you, at this. Now,

4 the first thing I want to draw your attention to is that I've endeavoured

5 to identify each of these squares. So what I've done is I've put numbers

6 along the top. Do you see? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6?

7 A. Here at the top, yes.

8 Q. I wonder if we could pull back a bit so the whole -- as much of

9 this as possible can be seen for the moment, please. Too big, can't do

10 it. All right. At least I think that's what was being said to me.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Can you move it down so we can see the top of the

12 -- we can see a number of unidentified numbers in brackets. Are they the

13 ones to which you refer?

14 MR. TOPOLSKI: I'm referring to, yes. If your seen is anything

15 as bad as mine it's almost impossible to see. May I indicate I have

16 written above each square of different sizes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, 6

17 columns.

18 Q. Down the left side, if it can be moved slightly across, so we see

19 the left-hand side, I have written -- again, against each line of

20 squares I've written A, B, C, and D. Sorry to do this like an infant

21 school, but it's the only way I can understand this.

22 Therefore, Mr. Karpuzi, what we should be able to do is if we

23 looking at any particular square, I should be able to give you a number

24 and a letter and you should be able to go to it. Do you understand me?

25 JUDGE PARKER: To help the record, by squares do you mean the

Page 3228

1 grid reference?

2 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes, grid.

3 Q. Do you understand me, Mr. Karpuzi?

4 A. It's not clear.

5 Q. All right. It's not clear. If I said to you: Put your finger

6 on grid number 1A, would you do that for me, please? 1A, go to grid 1A

7 and put your finger on it?

8 A. [Witness complies]

9 Q. Excellent. We do understand each other. Right. There's a red

10 line on that plan -- image. Do you see it? Yes, exactly that. It

11 starts in 2A and goes all the way down to 5D. Do you follow it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Let me tell you what that is because I don't think anyone's told

14 you that yet. That is said to be a line representing KLA fighting

15 positions in Lapusnik. Do you understand me?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Good. You and I are going to work together along that line and

18 along those tabs that I've put there. It's your evidence, not mine;

19 therefore, if you want to move a tab you must do so. Do you understand

20 me? Do you understand what I've just said?

21 A. I thought you said that this were my notes.

22 Q. No. This is my handiwork, but you're going to finish it off by

23 giving the evidence about it, Mr. Karpuzi. All right? Let's just start

24 and we'll see how we get on. Look at square number 2A.

25 A. [Witness complies]

Page 3229

1 Q. That's it. Just where you've put your finger I suggest there was

2 a fighting position called Guri, G-u-r-i, meaning rock. That is the rock

3 overlooking the Peja-Pristina road which you see running across the plan.

4 Do you agree with me?

5 A. Exactly there, there it is.

6 Q. Exactly there. Well, then would you be good enough to write on

7 that red tab "G," for Guri. With a pen. It should be clear. Mr.

8 Guy-Smith's stickers work.

9 A. [Witness complies]

10 Q. Thank you. Come along the red line with me to square 3A, please,

11 and you should come to the next tab.

12 A. [Witness complies]

13 Q. Exactly. I suggest, Mr. Karpuzi, that that red tab shows as

14 close as, I suggest, we can get to it the position of point number 1. Do

15 you agree with me?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Excellent. Would you be good enough to write the figure "1" on

18 the red tab that we've just been talking about.

19 A. [Witness complies]

20 Q. Thank you very much. Down the line to the text tab, we're now in

21 square 3B. Mr. Karpuzi, I suggest that, again, indicates approximately

22 the position of point 2. Do you agree?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Excellent. Would you write "2" there, please, on that tab.

25 A. [Witness complies]

Page 3230

1 Q. Coming down the line to the next tab, now square 4B, again as

2 best I can I suggest that is the position of fighting point number 3. Do

3 you agree with me about that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Good. Would you write "3" then on that tab, please.

6 A. [Witness complies]

7 Q. Coming down the plan - and we're now at grid 4C and we're now in

8 a slightly different position where I've put a tab - I suggest that is

9 the approximate or as close to the position of point number 4, fighting

10 position number 4 at Lapusnik. Do you agree with that? Don't write

11 anything unless you agree. Do you agree?

12 A. From above I cannot understand it very well, but this should be

13 approximately how it was.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Well, of course we all understand the

15 difficulties. Now, there's one more red tab there, and what I'm going to

16 suggest was - and it's slightly off the plan deliberately - this was

17 where soldiers were held in reserve to join whichever point they needed

18 to join during the course of the various fighting at Lapusnik. Again,

19 slightly off the plan, so a little difficult. But do you agree with me

20 that there was a group of reserve soldiers kept around there where that

21 last tab is, at grid 4D? Do you agree with that or not?

22 A. Maybe there were, but I don't know about it. But there were

23 civilians who would come to report and then go back because of the

24 weapons, because there was lack of weapons.

25 Q. Yes, exactly. And I'm suggesting that they may have been kept

Page 3231

1 or, rather, stayed at that area. But if you can't be sure, we can move

2 on. You can't be sure; is that what you're saying?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I'm not going to ask you anything in that.

5 Now, looking back at the plan, please, if we could just have it

6 more centrally positioned for a moment. Again, I don't think this was

7 explained to you but I want to tell you what you're looking at. Would

8 you go to grid 3C where you will see an area circled in red. Do you see

9 that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That, Mr. Karpuzi, shows the place you know as Gzim's compound

12 and another compound across the road, and I'm going to show you

13 photographs of the place in a minute. But do you agree with me - I know

14 it's difficult looking at the aerial photograph - but that is where

15 Gzim's compound was, in that red circle?

16 A. It cannot be seen clearly, and once I cannot see it clearly I

17 cannot say yes or no.

18 Q. Well, that's a perfectly reasonable answer, if I may say so, but

19 you can take it from me that that's where Gzim's compound is. All right?

20 Will you accept my word for it?

21 A. I will accept it.

22 Q. Good. Now, I just want you to look carefully at Gzim's compound

23 and that circle for a moment that goes round it. And I want you to put

24 your finger or the pointer on the circle at approximately where the 4

25 would be on a watch, 4.00. All right?

Page 3232

1 A. [Witness complies]

2 Q. Excellent. All right. Now, I want you to come gently across the

3 grid to the right towards the border, if you like, of that grid until I

4 tell you to stop. Would you do that for me, please. Point to the red

5 circle approximately where 4 would be on a clock and then move it

6 downwards and to the right until I say stop. Would you move it downwards

7 towards the 4, towards unit 4, until I tell you to stop. No, you're

8 going in the wrong direction, Mr. Karpuzi, the other way. Go towards the

9 red tab 4. Keep going. Yes, that line. Draw that line, but come down

10 the plan towards the number 4 with the pointer. A bit more --

11 MR. NICHOLLS: I have no objection if Mr. Topolski --


13 Q. Just stop there, please --

14 MR. TOPOLSKI: Sorry, Mr. Nicholls, I just wanted the witness to

15 stop. My friend I think has something to say.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: No. I was going to say I have no objection to you

17 drawing his attention directly to the spot you're interested in.

18 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you. I should have put another tab there,

19 maybe I will during the break.

20 JUDGE PARKER: You've got there, so keep going.

21 MR. TOPOLSKI: I just want to get him into a place there and then

22 I'll stop.

23 Q. Where you stopped - and I know it's difficult, Mr. Karpuzi - was

24 one of the houses where Mr. Qerqizi was based. It's a little group of

25 houses there. I'm going to put a sticker on during the break. Did you

Page 3233

1 ever go to Qerqizi's base in Lapusnik, the house he stayed in?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Doing the best you can, looking at that plan, now I've told you

4 where Gzim's compound is, do you agree with me that that could be - and

5 that's the highest you could put it I expect - that could be where

6 Qerqizi stayed for some of the time in Lapusnik? Do you agree? That's

7 it, just about there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Good.

10 MR. TOPOLSKI: With a slight sigh of relief, I wonder if we might

11 have a break, as Your Honour has indicated.

12 JUDGE PARKER: It hasn't been that much of a strain, Mr.

13 Topolski.

14 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, may I have your leave to put another

15 tab on the plan. It's now in the witness's hands.


17 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Nicholls.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: I was just going to say we should mark the last

20 spot.

21 JUDGE PARKER: You can keep your eye on what happens. And if

22 there is no further issue raised when we return, we'll take it that the

23 spot has been successfully marked.

24 We will resume at 5 minutes past 4.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

Page 3234

1 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Topolski.

3 MR. TOPOLSKI: I'm very grateful.

4 Q. Mr. Karpuzi, I want to go back to this image, and I want to go

5 back, please -- if we could have it on the ELMO.

6 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you very much.

7 Q. Mr. Karpuzi, I made a mistake and I'm going to suggest to you,

8 sir, that you agreed with my mistake. So I'm going to see if I can put

9 my mistake right and see whether you're prepared to agree with me. And

10 the mistake I made was in the precise position of the rock, Guri. Now,

11 I've of course alerted Mr. Nicholls and Mr. Whiting to this and precisely

12 what I'm going to do. What I want to do is look again at the position of

13 where Guri the rock was and indeed is.

14 I'm going to suggest, Mr. Karpuzi, that you do this, please: I

15 want you to look at the junction between grid 2 and 3 first of all, that

16 vertical line at the top of the plan. The line -- that's right. Just

17 put your pen on there. That's it. Exactly that. I want you to come

18 down that line to where your pen is, which is the junction of A and B.

19 Just about there, I suggest, we see what appears to be a clearing of

20 trees. That is where Guri, the rock, is. I put it too close to the road

21 first time around. There.

22 Now, look carefully. I know it's difficult, it's an aerial view.

23 You must not agree with me, just -- listen to me a minute. You must not

24 agree with me simply because I say so; it's your evidence, not mine. So

25 look carefully at where I've suggested in fact Guri position was.

Page 3235












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3236

1 MR. TOPOLSKI: Have I made that clear enough for Your Honours as

2 to where we are? I'm grateful.

3 Q. Now, what do you say?

4 A. I said even earlier that I can't see very well and I've never had

5 any opportunity to see an aerial view, so I see a difference between this

6 image and what I might know. So I'm not very accurate in showing --

7 pinpointing at the right, exact place of the rock.

8 Q. Right. Well, in that case the only, I suggest, Your Honours,

9 fair way of proceeding is the witness put a question mark against the

10 letter G on the tab that he's marked because it is not his evidence that

11 he can be clear about it. Unless my friend objects. I'm grateful.

12 So Mr. Karpuzi, against the letter G you've written on the tab

13 there, can you put a question mark.

14 A. [Witness complies]

15 Q. Thank you very much indeed. Now --

16 A. I can't see things very clearly. I cannot really distinguish the

17 place.

18 Q. We absolutely understand. Now, I've put two -- again, with Mr.

19 Nicholls' knowledge and kind approval, I've put two new stickers on there

20 during the break and I want you to help me if you can. Go to square 3B,

21 please. There's an empty, blank sticker there at the moment. Now --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I want to suggest this to you, Mr. Karpuzi: that Qerqizi occupied

24 two different houses in Lapusnik at different times and you might well

25 have visited them both. So my first question is: Is that the position

Page 3237

1 as you remember it? Two different houses and you may well have visited

2 him in both at different times.

3 A. We used to move from one house to the other. So we didn't stay

4 long in one place. We used to visit one another.

5 Q. All right. I understand. And of course evidence about this can

6 be given much later on in the case if need be, but I want to see if you

7 can help. So I'm going to make a suggestion. That blank tab that I've

8 located in 3B is pointing towards, if you look carefully, what seem to be

9 a group of houses. I suggest that in that little group there is a house

10 of a man called Avni Gashi, and it was in Avni Gashi's house that Qerqizi

11 was based in the early days in Lapusnik in May of 1998, and I further

12 suggest, sir, that you may well have visited him in that part of the

13 village. Can you help with me those suggestions?

14 A. Yes, this is correct.

15 Q. Coming down the plan we were looking before the break at a place

16 I was inviting -- again suggesting to you that this was another base,

17 another house occupied by Qerqizi. We're now in square 3C, and I've,

18 again with Mr. Nicholls' kind approval, put a blank sticker pointing

19 towards where I suggest another house is. And I'm going to help you with

20 a name again of a villager, Mr. Karpuzi, Ferat Sopi, S-o-p-i. His house

21 occupied by Qerqizi in June and July of 1998 where you might well have

22 visited. Do you agree that is possible?

23 A. It's not Ferhat but Ferat.

24 Q. Thank you for the correction. My question, however, was: Did

25 you visit Qerqizi in a house in that part of the village?

Page 3238

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to go back finally to a tab at the very

3 bottom of the image. Could we raise the image slightly on the screen,

4 please, Usher. Thank you. It's blank at the moment. Again, it's my

5 fault, so I'm sorry I was explaining this wrongly before the break.

6 Mr. Karpuzi, what I'm attempting to show here is a point just off

7 the plan -- just off the photograph which was usually kept empty but was

8 a point to which soldiers could go if the point they were occupying near

9 it was getting shelled or attacked in some way. Now, do you understand

10 me?

11 A. I'm not clear. At the beginning I didn't have -- I didn't

12 receive translation.

13 Q. This place I have shown at the bottom of the image just off the

14 photograph, in that part of the village was another point but it did not

15 usually have soldiers in it. It was a place where you could run to if

16 the point you were occupying was, for example, being shelled or attacked

17 in some other way. Now, do you remember a place down there in the

18 village to the south of this photograph that was like that in 1998?

19 A. There were many houses there. I don't understand what do you

20 mean exactly.

21 Q. Well, I'm not going to dwell on it. I would like you, please,

22 just to mark the two Qerqizi houses we were looking at, otherwise in

23 months to come when we come back to this perhaps we're not going to see

24 what you say about them. Could you go back to the red tab in 3B, the

25 empty one.

Page 3239

1 A. [Witness complies]

2 Q. Yes. And could you put "Q" there, the letter Q.

3 A. [Witness complies]

4 Q. Thank you. And could you do the same for the other tab where

5 you've identified Qerqizi's house may have been, down in square 3C, the

6 one that's empty at the moment. Could you again put a "Q" there, please.

7 That's it.

8 A. [Witness complies]

9 Q. Is that a Q? It looks like a G to me. It's a Q?

10 A. Yes, it's a Q.

11 Q. Can you put a Q there, please. Is that what you've done?

12 A. Yes, but you can say also soft Q.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, I just want to ask you one or two questions

14 about the scene generally here, please, these various points, these

15 various firing positions. I want to suggest this to you: At each point,

16 around each point we've marked here, there were in Lapusnik two or three

17 bunkers. Do you understand what I mean by a bunker? Do you agree with

18 me?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Between the points roughly marked here were trenches dug by

21 soldiers and villagers as another line of defence. Do you agree with me

22 about that?

23 A. I fully agree.

24 Q. Well, I'm sure to everyone's relief, I'm going to leave that. I

25 hope that it may in due course it will be helpful.

Page 3240

1 MR. TOPOLSKI: I ask that that separate plan, image, be admitted,

2 Your Honours. Just to guard those stickers, I hope we may put some

3 Sellotape over it so that those stickers that are likely to be lost in

4 the course of days and weeks. I hope that may be possible.

5 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sure that can be arranged practically.

6 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you very much. Your Honours, could I ask

7 for a number for this.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be DM3.

9 MR. TOPOLSKI: DM3. I'm grateful.

10 Q. All right, Mr. Karpuzi, you can forget that now and we can move

11 on to other things. I want to ask you a couple of questions about Ymer

12 Alushani who died on the 26th of July. When is it you say that Ymer

13 Alushani, Voglushi, was elected as one of the leaders at Lapusnik? When

14 did that happen?

15 A. I cannot give you an exact date, but it was after the first

16 fighting in Lapusnik.

17 Q. You told us, if it wasn't yesterday it was the day before, that

18 Voglushi proposed Qerqiz to become one of the leaders after the 18th of

19 May. Now, is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So it follows, doesn't it, that if Voglushi had proposed Qerqiz

22 after the 18th of May, Voglushi must have been elected before the 18th of

23 May? Do you agree with me?

24 A. Yes. This is how it was. First it was Voglushi who was elected,

25 then it was he who proposed that Qerqizi be elected.

Page 3241

1 Q. I want to be clear about this. The position regarding the

2 election of Voglushi, as I've understood your evidence, was that it was

3 literally that; he was asked if he would like to be, be prepared to be, a

4 leader. Is that the position?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was there a contest? Was there a leadership election? Did

7 anyone stand against him? And was there a vote on it?

8 A. No. We asked him, Ymer, to assume some responsibility, to become

9 a leader for us. Because everybody -- he was known by the soldiers and

10 by the local population because he was from Komorane very near Lapusnik,

11 and he was greatly respected. That's why we asked him that he take over

12 this responsibility.

13 Q. Now, I want to be clear about Qerqizi and his position. We know,

14 because you've told us and I don't dispute it, that Voglushi proposed

15 Qerqizi to the fighters there to become one of the leaders. That's

16 right, isn't it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, Qerqizi was not, I repeat, not being elected to become the

19 one and only commander in Lapusnik, was he? I suggest Qerqizi was

20 elected to become the leader of one of the units in Lapusnik. Am I right

21 or am I wrong about that?

22 A. You are right.

23 Q. I am right. Good.

24 Having dealt with that, I want to move on to Qerqizi in Lapusnik,

25 and more specifically Qerqizi out of Lapusnik. I want to understand what

Page 3242

1 you're saying. At various points yesterday you were telling us, Mr.

2 Nicholls, that Qerqizi was in Lapusnik all the time. Do you remember

3 telling us that?

4 A. Yes, I said so. When -- except for the fighting when he was

5 asked to go to render assistance to Rahovec.

6 Q. Yes, exactly. I suggest the position is that there was a period

7 in late -- mid- to late July. I've been specific with another witness;

8 I'll be specific with you. The 18th to the 24th of July, six/seven days,

9 when Qerqizi was not in Lapusnik. Now, I don't think for one moment you

10 were keeping a diary, Mr. Karpuzi; you were fighting a war. So I hope my

11 sensible question is: Could I be right? Is there a week or so when

12 Qerqizi was not to be seen in Lapusnik, yes or no?

13 A. I think -- I answered yesterday this question and even today. It

14 is true during this period I remember he was in Rahovec, and you know

15 why? Because I remember very well when they left for Rahovec there was

16 an old soldier and he started to cry that his friends, his comrades,

17 didn't take him along with them in Rahovec to fight there.

18 Q. Qerqizi of course by this time was one of the leaders, so it

19 would have been noticed, wouldn't it, that he was not there because

20 someone would have had to have led the unit while he was away. That was

21 the position, wasn't it?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Well, I suppose one of the reasons you might not know because it

24 rather depends what unit you were in. Were you in the unit led by

25 Qerqizi or were you in someone else's unit?

Page 3243

1 A. Yes. I was at position number 1 in that period.

2 Q. Who was your leader in July?

3 A. I didn't understand the question.

4 Q. Who was your leader, who was in charge, if anybody, of your unit,

5 number 1, in mid- to late July 1998?

6 A. His last name was Zogi.

7 Q. What was his pseudonym?

8 A. Mjeshtri.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 I want to ask you one or two questions about documents.

11 MR. TOPOLSKI: And for this purpose, please, Your Honours could

12 we go into private session for one moment?

13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3244

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session now.

9 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you very much.

10 Q. I want to show you now not a plan of the village but shots of

11 houses, please.

12 MR. TOPOLSKI: I wonder, could the witness please be given P6,

13 the locations booklet. And also could he be given -- could I ask Mr.

14 Nicholls help what exhibit number that was given or Mr. Younis? 128,

15 thank you.

16 Could he also have 128, please.

17 Your Honours, it's the single photograph of the compound.

18 Can we just give him this one first, the single one first, P128.

19 Q. Before I ask you to look at that, Mr. Karpuzi, would you bear

20 with me and forgive me. I just want to ask you a couple of more

21 questions about documentation before we move on to that, so forgive me.

22 You say you kept records of the details of soldiers who had come

23 to fight in Lapusnik. Is that right?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. And you were to tell investigators when they came to sit down

Page 3245

1 with you and take statements about this case that you did that at the

2 request of Qerqizi. Is that right?

3 A. No, I didn't say that Qerqiz requested me to do that.

4 Q. Who requested you to do that?

5 A. To take notes?

6 Q. Yes, details of the soldiers, names, places they came from, et

7 cetera.

8 A. As for this, Ymer proposed to do so.

9 Q. Am I right in suggesting to you that from time to time you would

10 take those records or some of them to where Qerqizi was staying, in one

11 of the houses?

12 A. No.

13 Q. No, I'm wrong about that. You kept them then, these records, in

14 Gzim's oda. Is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did they go anywhere else as far as you know?

17 A. No. There was no place for them to go, these documents, because

18 all they contained was details about soldiers, their weapons, their

19 marital status, something that was not secret. They were placed on a

20 shelf in the oda, these documents.

21 Q. Can I give the Court an idea of what we're talking about. Are

22 these loose sheets of paper? Are they in a book, a file, what?

23 A. For every soldier, there existed a piece of paper with their

24 name, last name, date of birth, father's name, the village that person

25 came from. And the other piece of paper contained data about the

Page 3246

1 economic status of the family. And about the weapon, the number of the

2 weapon that the person has signed for, whether it was automatic, rifle

3 10, so information like this basically.

4 Q. And where was that information kept? In a book? In a file? In

5 a shoebox? Where?

6 A. These documents were placed one on the top of the other as these

7 soldiers came. We knew that it took -- wasn't possible for all of us to

8 remain alive, and those soldiers that would be killed, the documents then

9 would be removed and put on a shelf in Gzim's oda.

10 Q. Very well. And speaking of Gzim's oda, I think we can then move

11 to the photograph that's there in front of you, please. Now, first of

12 all, Mr. Karpuzi, what we are looking at here is not the Lapusnik farm

13 compound, I suggest, but we are looking at two compounds divided by a

14 road. Do you agree with that?

15 A. Yes. So the road is here in the middle.

16 Q. Right. And I'm going to show you the road. I'm not sure we've

17 ever seen this before. If you look at P6 in the locations booklet,

18 please, page 20 and -- 20 first of all and then 21. I guarantee the boy

19 on the bicycle wouldn't have been there in July of 1998, but that's the

20 road, I suggest, between Gzim's compound, the lower half of the single

21 sheet you've got there, and another place opposite. Do you agree? 21 is

22 a different view of the same road. Do you agree with me? That's the

23 road that divides the two compounds.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Good. Now, looking at the -- that photograph you've got there,

Page 3247

1 please. Could you go back in the book to page 18. Thank you very much.

2 And if you want to look at page 19 as well, this is part of the compound

3 opposite Gzim's, on the other side of the road. First of all, do you

4 agree with me?

5 A. The one on page 18 I know very well where it is situated.

6 Q. Well, let's stick with that for a moment, page 18. Do you agree

7 that is part of the compound opposite Gzim's compound, on the other side

8 of the road?

9 A. It's not clear to me. Opposite Gzim's house, if you could

10 explain this, please.

11 Q. All right. Well, I may be getting it wrong I suppose. Well,

12 I'll tell you what we'll do, we'll look at the single photograph. Let's

13 look at P128, because that we can be sure about. I may be getting that

14 wrong, Mr. Karpuzi, so forgive me. Let's look at P128 together, shall

15 we? The buildings in the top half of that photograph across the road

16 from the compound, they're buildings you have been into, is that right,

17 while you were in Lapusnik?

18 A. I stayed here.

19 Q. Can you point to that again, please? Can you point to it again,

20 sorry.

21 A. [Witness complies]

22 Q. There. You stayed there. Right.

23 Show us the oda in which the records you were talking about a

24 minute or two ago were kept, if that oda is on this photograph anywhere.

25 Point to it, if you would.

Page 3248

1 A. [Witness complies]

2 Q. Is that the same or a different oda in which Qerqiz would sing to

3 the soldiers in the evenings?

4 A. No, this is a different oda.

5 Q. Is the oda in which Qerqiz sang to the soldiers in this evenings

6 on this photograph or not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Point to it, please.

9 A. [Witness complies]

10 Q. Number 2 on the photograph. Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How many times, if it's possible for you to say, would you have

13 seen Qerqizi in there and you heard him -- well, no, one question at a

14 time. First of all, how many times would you have seen Qerqizi in there

15 during the war?

16 A. I don't remember how many times exactly, but I know that's where

17 we sang. I don't know exactly.

18 Q. Would he be the only one singing or would others be singing as

19 well?

20 A. Others would be singing as well. There were many who sang.

21 Maybe I am wrong, but I know that many people were singing with ciftelia,

22 our instrument, and I also participated in the singing in the oda.

23 MR. TOPOLSKI: Mr. Nicholls is on his feet.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Excuse me, just for the record it's not on the

25 record which building the witness pointed to where he said which oda he

Page 3249

1 stayed in. So if we could put that in, the first oda he marked, which is

2 marked as the oda of Gzim on the diagram.

3 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you. I shall deal with that.

4 Q. Mr. Karpuzi, would you please point again to the -- on the

5 photograph to the oda you stayed in.

6 A. [Witness complies]

7 Q. And does that on the photograph you have in front of you have a

8 name written by you against it?

9 A. No -- yes, it has "oda Gzim," Gzim's oda. This is a wall and the

10 sign.

11 MR. TOPOLSKI: I hope that's clear enough.

12 Q. Can I then return to the question I was asking you a moment ago.

13 The other oda that is marked number 2 is the oda in which you saw Qerqiz

14 and heard him sing from time to time. Is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Looking carefully as you can - and I can show you many other

17 pictures of that compound if you wish - but looking at that compound as

18 carefully as you can, I want you to tell us, please, were there any other

19 parts of that compound you went into at any stage during the war.

20 A. I mentioned it earlier as well that in all the houses that were

21 along the defence line, we did go in and out. For security reasons, as I

22 said earlier when I was asked why, we always thought that in case of

23 shelling, if someone told the enemy that we were staying in those houses,

24 then the enemy would shell exactly those houses. That's why we had to

25 split into smaller group [as interpreted] and in case the enemy attacked

Page 3250

1 the number of the victims would be lesser.

2 Q. I understand all of that, the problem is it isn't the answer to

3 the question I asked you. So I'm going to ask you the question once

4 more, please. Would you listen to me carefully. I hope I'm expressing

5 myself clearly; if I'm not it's my fault, not yours.

6 Looking carefully at that compound that contains the oda where

7 Qerqizi would sing, my question, I hope simple: Did you go into any

8 other building or any other part of that compound, other than of course

9 going through the front gate to get to the oda? Apart from that, any

10 other place in that place did you go?

11 A. Are we speaking about the group of houses here below?

12 Q. Yes. Marked number 1 --

13 A. No.

14 Q. The well, the cowshed, anywhere. Did you go anywhere else in

15 that compound, apart from the oda? That's my question.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Mr. Karpuzi, my final question is this: The evidence this

18 Tribunal has heard over the last weeks and months may lead it to conclude

19 that while you were sitting listening to Qerqizi singing, there were

20 people chained up, being tortured and possibly even murdered in that

21 compound through the months of April, May, June and July. Now, bearing

22 that in mind, did you see or hear anything while you were there that

23 suggested that such a thing might be going on under your nose?

24 A. This is not true, absolutely not. I've told this to the

25 investigator because he asked me the same thing, but this is strange. I

Page 3251

1 have neither seen nor heard about such a thing.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Topolski.

3 Mr. Guy-Smith, is it?

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: It is, and I will be but a moment because I need

5 to move.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Karpuzi.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. I represent Haradin Bala. I would -- I'd like to start with an

10 understanding of something that you just said to Mr. Topolski regarding

11 where people stayed. Because you indicated that everybody did not stay

12 together because you were worried or concerned about shelling coming from

13 the Serbs. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If you were to take a look once again at one of the maps from an

16 aerial view, which I know is difficult, would you be able by looking at

17 that map to point out for the Trial Chamber the various places where

18 people stayed?

19 A. You mean the soldiers?

20 Q. That's correct, yes, the soldiers.

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could Mr. Karpuzi be supplied with I believe it's

23 128? I could be incorrect about that -- no, I'm sorry, the aerial map.

24 DM3.

25 I'm not going to have any of your stickers moved, Mr. Topolski.

Page 3252

1 Q. Taking a look at DM3, which is an aerial view of the area, are

2 you able to recognise any of the houses where the soldiers stayed at

3 night?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I see that you're using a pointer there, and if we have another

6 -- I think we actually do because I got a fresh copy of it from the

7 Prosecution.

8 I'm giving you a choice of either stickers or a Bic pen. The pen

9 in your hand may well be -- if you could put on the map those places and

10 mark them sequentially 1, 2, 3, 4, the places where soldiers stayed at

11 night in Lapusnik.

12 A. May I start?

13 Q. You --

14 JUDGE PARKER: Could I ask you to pause, Mr. Guy-Smith, I'm

15 sorry. We need to turn off the ELMO and adjust and restart it again to

16 try and improve the image.

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Absolutely.

18 I don't know if that's any better. I don't find it to be.

19 JUDGE PARKER: It was an attempt to improve --

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE PARKER: Nothing can be done further to improve it at the

22 moment. I'm sorry.


24 Q. We're going to use -- go back to the map now if you could. And

25 if you could mark with a number 1 one of the places where soldiers

Page 3253

1 stayed, if you can recognise it from the aerial map that you have there

2 in front of you.

3 A. Shall I mark all the houses or just one of them? Because it's a

4 large number of houses that we've been to during the war.

5 Q. Oh, indeed, mark as many of the houses as you can, sir, all of

6 them. That would be excellent. You may proceed.

7 A. [Witness complies]

8 Q. It might be easier to put a ring around it -- a circle around it,

9 each house.

10 A. [Witness complies]

11 Q. You seem to be marking quite a number of places, Mr. Karpuzi.

12 A. I'm marking those places where we have been during the war.

13 Q. Are there more to mark?

14 A. It is possible that I've marked a few more because I've never

15 seen an aerial map before. I have never analysed it, so there might be a

16 smaller mistake.

17 Q. I understand. Let me ask you this: While you have that map in

18 front of you looking at it from an aerial position - and I understand

19 you've never had that view before - as you look at that map, does that

20 map contain all of the area of Lapusnik?

21 A. This is just the part where we participated in combat, part of

22 the defence line, because Lapusnik is much bigger.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues]... as you sit here today were

24 soldiers in other parts of Lapusnik where they spent the evening?

25 A. One part of the soldiers were usually working on shifts on the

Page 3254

1 defence line. And at night they would sleep in different odas and

2 different houses.

3 Q. And before we leave the issue of the houses that you've marked,

4 is it possible that there are a few less houses than you actually stayed

5 in as well as a few more as you look at the map? So what I'm trying to

6 get at just so I'm clear: Have you marked to your satisfaction all of

7 the houses or could more houses have been marked?

8 A. There are other houses that have not been marked.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, with regard to the people who were fighting at

10 Lapusnik, the people who were at the points at Lapusnik during the time

11 that you were there, I want to mention some names to you and see whether

12 or not these names you remember as people who were fighting either

13 alongside you or people who you saw. Okay?

14 Neseri - and my pronunciations may be incorrect and if they are I

15 apologise. Nasufi?

16 A. Nasufi, yes.

17 Q. Drini?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

20 A. There was an Agim, a soldier.

21 Q. Do you know what Agim's pseudonym was?

22 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry. No objection, I just don't think the

23 translation caught the question because Mr. Guy-Smith was asking the

24 question while the interpreters were still translating the answer to the

25 previous question.

Page 3255


2 Q. Do you know what Agim's pseudonym was?

3 A. No, I don't remember it.

4 Q. Graniti?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. Minatori?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Skifter?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Uka?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Genci?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Motori?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Cubi?

17 A. [No interpretation]

18 Q. Fati?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Luzhi?

21 A. [No interpretation]

22 Q. Rambo?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. As you sit here right now, do you recall any of the other names

25 of the men or women that you fought with during this time?

Page 3256

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Okay. I'm going to move on another issue. When you were

3 discussing record-keeping, are the names that I've mentioned to you here,

4 the ones that you remembered, are those some of the people that you kept

5 records of?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. As you sit here today, are all of those people still alive or are

8 some of those people fallen in the defence of your country?

9 A. Those that you mentioned, Motori, Agimi, Minatori, these are

10 alive.

11 Q. The others, those pieces of paper moved to the other shelf in the

12 oda of Gzim?

13 A. It is not that we moved them to another shelf, but the details of

14 these names -- so these are the names that I kept records about, their

15 date of birth, their year of birth, their economic status, and details

16 about the weapon they possessed. It's about these persons.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we give Mr. Karpuzi I believe it's 135.

19 Plaintiff's [sic] 135.

20 Q. Now, as I understand your testimony, this is a gathering of men

21 to celebrate the anniversary of Ymer Alushani's death. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And looking at -- looking at Plaintiff's 135, in the very back of

24 the photo there I believe is a headstone with what seems to me to be a

25 likeness, the face, of this commander. Correct?

Page 3257

1 A. Yes. It's the picture of Voglushi.

2 Q. Now, this particular monument was a monument that was put up

3 after the war. Is that a fair statement?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And if I was to mention the year 2002 to you, would that refresh

6 your recollection with regard to when this photograph was taken? It may,

7 it may not.

8 A. I don't remember, but approximately it was taken in 2002. I

9 don't know exactly, but I know that the memorial was erected quite a long

10 time after the war ended. Here it is as well written when this memorial

11 was built and the picture shows us there during the anniversary of Ymer

12 Alushani's fall.

13 Q. Thank you. I want to spend a moment with you discussing your

14 statement, and I know you've spent a lot of time with this and I'm not

15 going to dwell on it. But I would just like to get some clarification if

16 we possibly could as to what occurred. Your first statement was given on

17 the 19th and 21st of July, 2003. Correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When that statement was being taken, and we've had some

20 description of what occurred, to your knowledge was that statement

21 tape-recorded?

22 A. You mean by the investigator?

23 Q. That's correct.

24 A. To my knowledge, no. Legally it wasn't and illegally everything

25 can happen.

Page 3258

1 Q. Do you know whether or not as you recall whether or not anybody

2 was running a video camera or a camera of the time when you were speaking

3 with the gentleman you've called Ole?

4 A. To my knowledge, no. I couldn't see it. It wasn't visible.

5 Q. Now, I understand the statement went over a two-day period. I'd

6 like to just deal with the first day the statement was being taken. And

7 during that period of time --

8 JUDGE PARKER: Excuse me, Mr. Guy-Smith.

9 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: I just want to put on the record the statement was

11 not tape-recorded or videotaped.


13 Q. During the first day when the statement was being taken, you were

14 there; Ole was there, who is an investigator from the ICTY; and somebody

15 was there who is a translator also. Right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, did your conversation with Mr. Lehtinen, which is his last

18 name, the investigator, was your conversation to him similar to what's

19 been happening here in court, which is he would ask you a question, you

20 would give him an answer, he would ask you another question? Or were you

21 having a conversation with this man?

22 A. No. Every answer of mine followed his question. So the

23 questions came first and then I answered. I explained this to the

24 gentleman, in fact Mr. Nicholls. I told him on Sunday that this was a

25 misunderstanding between Ole and myself during the conversation. I also

Page 3259

1 added that in the end on the 21st I was so stressed that I told him, Take

2 these papers and go and I will not sign them. And the reason for that

3 was that I would say something differently and I had to ask the

4 interpreter, Hey, interpreter, are you telling the investigator this or

5 is he saying something else? And then Ole said, All right, all right.

6 And then he had to remove those parts that I didn't say. And then I

7 asked again the interpreter, Sir, did I say this? And then Ole reviewed

8 those parts where I saw bigger mistakes.

9 Q. As you sit here today, can you tell us how many times you had to

10 get Ole to remove things from your statement that you didn't say?

11 A. Excuse me. On the first day he just took notes. I didn't know

12 what he was writing, but he was just writing. He would ask the question,

13 then I would answer; he would again ask a question, and I would again

14 answer. It lasted for some four hours, I'm not quite sure; between three

15 and four hours.

16 Then when they brought the statement before me to sign it, I

17 asked for an Albanian copy. I wanted to have an Albanian copy of what I

18 said. And he said to me that according to the Tribunal it's not allowed

19 to give you a copy. We will read you the statement in Albanian and then

20 you decide for yourself whether you will sign it or not. Then the

21 interpreter read back the statement to me in Albanian. I would tell my

22 remarks, and then Ole would say to me, Well, this is not that important.

23 And to me, maybe I didn't know what the weight of that word was. So this

24 is how it basically happened.

25 Q. Now, when you say that he would indicate to you that something

Page 3260

1 you were trying to correct in your statement was not that important. Do

2 you know if he was making notes with regard to what you said was not

3 correct in your statement? Did he show you at any point in time what he

4 was doing on that computer?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did he keep -- as you sit here if you remember, did he keep

7 your corrections, what you said needed to be corrected, on the computer?

8 A. This is what happened. Prior to my signing the statement I

9 objected. And each time he met me, I told him, Ole, this is not right.

10 Even in the presence of Mr. Nicholls, who -- together with two other

11 colleagues, I was obliged to explain to them that some things need to be

12 corrected, in addition to that even on Sunday when I was here.

13 Q. Now, before you met with Mr. Nicholls on Sunday, you met with Mr.

14 Nicholls once before, as I understand your testimony. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that was a meeting that you had with Mr. Nicholls, I believe,

17 back home. It wasn't here in The Hague, was it?

18 A. Yeah, it was back home, yes. He was with Ole. I took -- I mean,

19 I asked them to come in. I don't remember if they drank something or

20 not, but I know that it was Mr. Nicholls and his colleague wearing

21 glasses. They introduced themselves to me by their true names and they

22 told me that they are the Prosecutor's counsel.

23 Q. During that meeting with Mr. Nicholls, did you discuss any of

24 your experiences in the spring and summer, fall and winter of 1998 or

25 your experiences as a soldier during this war?

Page 3261

1 A. No. He didn't -- Mr. Nicholls didn't ask me at all about such

2 experiences.

3 Q. Did you discuss with Mr. Nicholls the previous statement that you

4 had made?

5 A. Mr. Nicholls -- I didn't address Mr. Nicholls, I addressed the

6 investigator, Ole, asking him to see that in the statement, since I

7 didn't know English, it was not translated in English -- in Albanian, it

8 was only a page in English. It was in English. I kindly asked them to

9 correct some mistakes that I thought were in certain places, and they

10 told me, We can do that when we come to The Hague. And this is what we

11 did on Sunday with Mr. Nicholls.

12 Q. I'm sorry, I've forgotten. When did you meet with Mr. Nicholls?

13 A. Some time, one week before the trial started here I think.

14 Q. But when you met with him in October, when you met with him at

15 your home, when was that?

16 A. I don't remember the date, but it was before the trial started

17 here.

18 Q. Do you recall how long after you met with Mr. Lehtinen in 2003

19 that you met with Mr. Nicholls?

20 A. It was a considerable time lapse I think. I don't remember when

21 that was.

22 Q. When you met with Mr. Nicholls, did you identify your specific

23 concerns about what could be incorrect in your statement? Did you say to

24 Mr. Nicholls something along the lines of, Listen, I have some concerns

25 about some of the things that were taken down and I want them to be

Page 3262

1 corrected?

2 A. I didn't know the importance. I didn't know what position he

3 had. That's why I often addressed Ole, telling him that this is wrong,

4 this is wrong, this is wrong. But Ole answered me, telling me that, We

5 will correct them; they don't matter much. When you come there, when you

6 give your testimony, we will see.

7 Q. When you were telling Ole about your concerns, as you sit here

8 today do you remember whether Ole was taking notes about what your

9 concerns were? Was he writing down what were your problems?

10 A. I don't remember this. I don't remember this.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, Mr. Guy-Smith?

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: It actually is an excellent time.

13 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 10 minutes to 6.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 5.27 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith.

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Karpuzi, I'd like to return for a moment to the Lapusnik area

19 and ask you a couple of questions with regard to those matters.

20 Specifically: During the evening when you were sleeping, did you

21 have people guarding or watching the soldiers?

22 A. I don't get interpretation.

23 Q. Well, then let me try again and see whether or not it's coming to

24 you.

25 A. Yes, now I do.

Page 3263

1 Q. I asked you that during the time that you were sleeping, did you

2 have an individual who was guarding you? Was somebody designated as a

3 guard for the sleeping soldiers?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did that individual change or was it always the same

6 individual, if you remember, with regard to your unit?

7 A. No. He was changed every four hours.

8 Q. Now, while you were in Lapusnik, were you able to go anywhere you

9 chose to go in the compound which was called -- has been called the Gzim

10 compound?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you've mentioned that you would on occasion go across the

13 street and go into the oda where you would sing. And in that particular

14 compound, were you free to go wherever you wished to go?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And with regard to other areas, other homes in Lapusnik, would it

17 be fair to say that this was one large community where each of you were

18 living with each other, helping each other, soldier or civilian, and

19 there was free access to all the homes?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I have one more question to ask you, and that revolves around

22 somebody who Mr. Topolski asked you about. So perhaps once again we

23 should go into private session.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

25 [Private session]

Page 3264

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 MR. KHAN: If it pleases Your Honours.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Khan:

22 Q. Mr. Karpuzi, I represent Mr. Fatmir Limaj. Do you understand?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, I know this has been a long three days for you. You'll be

25 pleased to hear that I hope I will not be too long and it may be the

Page 3265

1 case, subject to the Prosecution and the leave of the Court, that we can

2 finish with your testimony today. Do you understand?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Going back to your education, I think you said yesterday --

5 MR. KHAN: And Your Honours, it's at page 5 -- sorry, two days

6 ago at page 5 of the LiveNote transcript.

7 Q. You said that after primary school you had only two years of high

8 school. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you said that you could not go on with your education because

11 of the Serb repression and the difficulties that Kosovar Albanians were

12 encountering. Those problems touched you. Is that right?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. So much so that I think that you told my learned friend Mr.

15 Nicholls who was asking you questions that in a five-year period you had

16 been arrested also by the Serbs about five times. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Karpuzi, it may seem like an awfully silly question, but

19 perhaps it will help Their Honours understand the issues which they have

20 decide, so please bear with me. Am I right if I -- in my understanding

21 that at school you never went through a text, for example, Shakespeare,

22 line by line and word by word. Would that be fair or not?

23 A. That would be fair.

24 Q. And the first time that you went through such an exercise was in

25 fact these last two days with Mr. Nicholls. That's the first time you've

Page 3266












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3267

1 gone through a document, a text, in such detail word by word, line by

2 line. Would that be a fair comment or would it be unfair?

3 A. That would be a fair comment. This is how it happened. You were

4 present yourself.

5 Q. And how did you find that process? Did you find it easy or

6 difficult to perform that task line by line, word by word with Mr.

7 Nicholls?

8 A. It was a hard process for me because I have never been subjected

9 to such situations. I have often emphasised that many things are

10 difficult for me to grasp. If it went on for a longer period, I would

11 certainly have said I am incapable of responding to any more questions.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Karpuzi, I am going to talk for a while and ask you

13 questions about a statement that you made to the Prosecution over two

14 days, the 19th and 21st of July, 2003. You're familiar with that

15 statement, aren't you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, it's a short statement of only seven pages, but you'll

18 understand from the questions you were asked yesterday by my learned

19 friend, Mr. Nicholls, that it's given rise to, let's say, a certain

20 amount of controversy. Are you aware of that?

21 A. In some instances there were some controversies.

22 Q. Now, I'll try and not repeat -- I'll try my best not to repeat

23 the questions that my learned friend Mr. Guy-Smith asked you. But

24 casting your mind back to the 19th of July, 2003, is it correct that you

25 met Mr. Lehtinen and an interpreter at your home?

Page 3268

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. And I think you said over the last couple of days that they told

3 you that they'd been sent on behalf of the Prosecutor Carla Del Ponte and

4 they wanted to ask you some questions. Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you invited these staff members, Mr. Lehtinen and the

7 interpreter, into your home. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's true. Ole Lehtinen asked me if it was possible for

9 them to enter my home and I said yes.

10 Q. You wanted to tell a truthful account and help the Tribunal in

11 any way you could. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes. I had great respect, that's why I asked them to come in. I

13 had great respect for the Tribunal.

14 Q. And you still have great respect for the Tribunal. Is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes, of course.

17 Q. Now, were your wife -- was your wife and two children at home

18 when the investigator and the interpreter came to your home?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So you brought Mr. Lehtinen into your home. Where did you sit?

21 A. We sat at the guestroom.

22 Q. Now, this interview that you gave lasted some several hours. Is

23 that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you serve your guests tea or any refreshments on that first

Page 3269

1 visit?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And Mr. Lehtinen asked you various questions, you answered them,

4 and he tried to put them down on a computer. Is that right?

5 A. Yes. Even though he was an investigator, I respected them. I

6 offered them tea and refreshments. You can ask Mr. Lehtinen himself.

7 Out of the respect I had for the Tribunal, I, as I said, offered them

8 tea, refreshments. The first day, the investigator lasted about -- about

9 I think four hours, I can't be accurate.

10 Q. Yes. Going back to my question, Mr. Lehtinen asked you questions

11 and you answered them.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that question-and-answer format was then put into a computer

14 before the next question. Is that right or have I got it wrong?

15 A. Yes, you've got it right.

16 Q. So the structure of the interview was down to Mr. Lehtinen not

17 down to you. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And if it's a -- and if the statement that resulted from that

20 question-answer format was well-structured, that would be because Mr.

21 Lehtinen had done a very good job. Would that be fair?

22 A. He asked questions; I answered them. In most -- in many cases we

23 had misunderstandings, as I said earlier. In several parts I saw things

24 which I had not said. On the 21st, some of them he removed because I

25 insisted that these lines were -- which I didn't say were removed. So I

Page 3270

1 even asked the interpreter, Are you translating it in this way or is he

2 writing what he likes? Because if that is the case, then I will get away

3 -- he can leave with his papers and I won't sign anything. You can ask

4 Mr. Lehtinen about that.

5 Q. Yes. Let me try again because perhaps I have failed to express

6 myself. I do apologise. The sequence of questions was dictated by Mr.

7 Lehtinen. He decided what to ask and when to ask it. Is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You were not asked to give a narrative, a general account, first

10 and then you were asked specific questions relating to that account, were

11 you?

12 A. It's -- the voice is very loud. Can you please put it down for

13 me. I can't concentrate.

14 Q. Well, Mr. Karpuzi, it's not your fault it's entirely mine. And

15 for the second time today and perhaps for not the last, I have to

16 apologise to you.

17 A. Yes, now I hear.

18 Q. I hope I'm not too loud now. Yes. Let me repeat my last

19 question so that the Judges hopefully have an idea of how this statement

20 was generated. You were not asked by Mr. Lehtinen to give an account, a

21 general narrative, you were asked specific questions and gave answers,

22 and that's how the statement was created. That's what you're saying. Is

23 that right?

24 A. I'll explain. He asked questions of me, but he also allowed me

25 to explain things related to the questions. But he did ask the

Page 3271

1 questions.

2 Q. You met Mr. Nicholls again in October of last year, and once

3 again you invited him into your home. Is that right?

4 A. I don't remember the time when this happened. I didn't invite

5 them [as interpreted]. He came together with Lehtinen and to others, and

6 yes, I of course let them in. I'm sorry that there was nothing on the

7 floor, there was no carpet or something.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: Excuse me. I think there Khan may have misspoke

9 when he said "you met Mr. Nicholls again in October." I don't know if he

10 intended to say that.

11 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful.

12 Q. You met -- along with Mr. Lehtinen, you met Mr. Nicholls sometime

13 last year at your home in Kosova. That's right, isn't it?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Do you think it's important to tell the truth to this Trial

16 Chamber?

17 A. Yes. If I had not felt it my obligation to tell the truth, I

18 would certainly not be here today.

19 Q. Before you started giving testimony, you made an affirmation, you

20 promised to tell the truth. Was that important to you or something you

21 think is of little significance?

22 A. There was interruption in the interpretation. I didn't get your

23 question.

24 Q. Let me try again. Before you started giving testimony three days

25 ago, you made an affirmation, you made an oath. Is that something that

Page 3272

1 you attach importance to or not?

2 A. I attach great importance to the oath.

3 Q. You have described how you have spoken to the Prosecution on a

4 few occasions, invited them into your house. How do you feel if I tell

5 you that the Prosecution say that you're not willing to tell the truth to

6 this Trial Chamber? How would you feel about that?

7 MR. NICHOLLS: Objection.

8 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I don't see the basis. Perhaps it can be

9 elaborated upon.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Nicholls.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, it's completely irrelevant and may refer --

12 I don't know where he's going with this, but we -- and maybe we should

13 even send the witness out if we're going to pursue this.

14 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, I simply don't see why. It's --

15 JUDGE PARKER: Relevance, Mr. Khan?

16 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, the relevance is, in my submission, the

17 witness is quite entitled to be in a position to comment on the

18 importance he gives to evidence before Your Honours on oath in

19 distinction to -- well, as an issue itself --

20 JUDGE PARKER: I think that's enough, and he has done that, has

21 he not?

22 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, he has.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Without qualification.

24 MR. KHAN: Yes.

25 JUDGE PARKER: So what is the point of what you're now going to

Page 3273

1 do?

2 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, it goes to the questions that were asked

3 yesterday in relation to the alleged discrepancy between the testimony

4 you heard and the alleged inconsistencies found by the Prosecution.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Most assuredly you may deal with those. But what

6 you're now putting is on a different tack, is it not?

7 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, I -- it must be my fault. I don't

8 see it. In order to proceed, in my submission, in order to understand

9 that the nature of the questions, the witness is entitled to know what

10 the Prosecution view of his testimony, what they consider his testimony

11 to be. And he should be entitled and given an opportunity --

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Khan, such a very great deal of time was spent

13 yesterday by counsel for the Prosecution identifying differences between

14 the previous statement and the testimony in the course of this trial of

15 the witness, that the witness can have no doubt about that. And I'd have

16 thought you could have no difficulty whatever in directing the witness's

17 attention again to any particular differences that you seek to explore

18 further. And of course, exploring those differences is undoubtedly

19 something that you may properly do.

20 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, of course the Prosecution did deal

21 with the issue in quite some considerable detail yesterday. I hope I

22 will not be very long. In my submission, the Prosecution, when the

23 witness is not here, is going to submit as a matter of fact and law --

24 JUDGE PARKER: Well, that will do. We're still in the presence

25 of the witness, but I don't think it's necessary for him to go out.

Page 3274

1 Can I suggest, Mr. Khan, that you go on to the substance of any

2 differences and what you want to make from that. You've got an

3 unqualified assurance of the witness's goodwill toward giving an honest

4 account itself.

5 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, I will move on, but in my

6 submission it's quite proper for me to give Your Honours a chance to

7 assess the witness's credibility and his veracity and the importance he

8 gives to his testimony under oath.

9 JUDGE PARKER: I have no doubt whatever and could not for a

10 moment question that. But the question you were putting, though, is one

11 that will not assist this Chamber in the matters that are of importance

12 in the case. So if you could move on, Mr. Khan, thank you.

13 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, if that's the case, of course.

14 Q. You talked yesterday about an oath ceremony in Lapusnik in June

15 or July 1998. Do you remember being asked many questions by the

16 Prosecution about that?

17 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Now, I know it's difficult to remember matters some time ago,

19 particularly when you told the Trial Chamber that you wanted to forget

20 everything after the war because of all the awful things you had seen.

21 But casting your mind back, is it possible that that oath ceremony took

22 place at the beginning of July rather than in June? Would that help you

23 at all or you can't say?

24 A. I don't know how many times I have repeated that. I'm not

25 certain whether it was end of June or early July. I couldn't specify the

Page 3275

1 time because I don't remember it accurately.

2 Q. You've been very clear. My next question, you said yesterday as

3 well that that was the first time you had seen Celiku. That's correct,

4 isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you say that about 50 people were at this flag-raising

7 ceremony. Did they come from different units or from one unit?

8 A. I saw there 50 or 60 soldiers lined up there, but I didn't know

9 whether they came from different units or from one unit. There were

10 people from different units, but I can't be very accurate about that now.

11 I don't remember.

12 Q. In your experience as a former member of the KLA, was it usual

13 for soldiers of other units to be invited to ceremonial occasions such as

14 oaths or funerals or other events that were being conducted by

15 neighbouring and other units? Was that something that was common or you

16 don't know?

17 A. I don't know. This, I don't know.

18 Q. Now, you say that yesterday after the oath and the flag-raising

19 ceremony, the group of 50 broke up. Is that right?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. And after the group broke up, you had occasion to speak with

22 Celiku, Fatmir Limaj. Is that right?

23 A. No, I didn't have occasion to do that. We were in a group.

24 While we were breaking up -- it was not that I directly spoke with him.

25 Q. Yes. This group that Fatmir Limaj spoke to, how many people were

Page 3276

1 in it?

2 A. I don't remember accurately how many soldiers were there. While

3 we were dispersing from the place, he talked. I don't remember.

4 Q. Again casting your mind back, is it possible that the group of

5 people that Fatmir Limaj spoke to comprised about five or six KLA

6 soldiers? Would that help you recollect what happened or does it provide

7 no assistance at all?

8 A. I don't seem to remember.

9 Q. Now, you say that when you arrived in Lapusnik on the 8th of May,

10 1998, that there was no organisation or no presence of KLA troops in

11 Lapusnik at that time. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that was until soldiers elected Voglushi to be the commander?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. And you've also said a couple of times at least that Isak Musliu,

16 Qerqizi, was later also made a commander in Lapusnik. Is that right?

17 A. [No interpretation]

18 Q. [Microphone not activated]

19 MR. KHAN: Your Honours, we seem to have a problem with

20 interpretation.

21 Perhaps it has been solved.

22 Q. Voglushi remained a commander until the end -- well, until he was

23 killed. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know what --

Page 3277

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Excuse me, Your Honour, I think we need to get the

2 answers on the record before we move too far to the questions where it

3 states no interpretation.

4 MR. KHAN: I'm happy to repeat it. I'm grateful to my learned

5 friend.

6 Q. Mr. Karpuzi, there appears to have been a problem with the

7 interpretation, to forgive me with I repeat a question you've already

8 answered. Let's try again. You've already told the Trial Chamber that

9 Isak Musliu, Qerqizi, was made a commander in Lapusnik. You remember

10 saying that, don't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you've also said that Voglushi, Ymer Alushani, remained a

13 commander until his death in July 1998. Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Isak Musliu, you say, was a commander of Celiku 3. Do you know

16 what Ymer Alushani was a commander of, what unit, what was it called?

17 A. Celiku 3. As Celiku 3, we knew later. As Celik we knew that we

18 had this name. Then Ymer was elected. We asked him to become our

19 leader. When the number of soldiers increased, Ymer proposed Qerqiz to

20 become one of the leaders.

21 Q. And do you know at that time what Ymer Alushani became a

22 commander of? Do you know or not?

23 A. He was the -- our commander where I was a member too.

24 Q. Do you know what it was called?

25 A. Whom do you mean?

Page 3278

1 Q. After Qerqizi became a commander of Celiku 3, what did Voglushi

2 become a commander of?

3 A. Voglushi, too, was a commander. He was our commander.

4 Q. And is it correct that all of these points that you marked on the

5 map in some detail in response to Mr. Topolski's questions, that each of

6 these points had a commander? Would that be correct or not?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Now, you were based in Lapusnik as you've said, but do you know

9 who was the commander of Celiku 1?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Had you heard of a Celiku 1 or Celiku 2?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You see, what I put to you is that Fatmir Limaj was a commander

14 of Celiku 1. Had you heard about that or not?

15 A. No. As a commander for Fatmir Limaj, I heard that in September,

16 October, or November of 1998, for him as a commander. And before that, I

17 didn't know whether he was a commander and a commander of what.

18 Q. Are you aware of a time when the KLA in that area started to

19 organise itself and a brigade called the 121 Brigade was formed? Are you

20 aware of that?

21 A. This happened after the fall of the Lapusnik gorge. I don't know

22 the exact time. I heard about this in October or November. That's when

23 I heard when the 121 Brigade was formed and the smaller units. I don't

24 know now how that -- to put them in the hierarchy.

25 Q. And I think you answered quite honestly yesterday when you said

Page 3279

1 that you'd heard that Fatmir Limaj became the commander of the 121st, but

2 you didn't directly know it, you didn't directly see it. Is that right?

3 A. No, no.

4 Q. Just to clarify, you heard that Fatmir Limaj, Celiku, was

5 appointed after the fall of Lapusnik as commander of the 121st. Is that

6 right?

7 A. After the fall of the Lapusnik gorge, now -- as I said earlier, I

8 heard it in September, October, or November that he became a commander.

9 Q. Can we go back for a moment to the battle of Lapusnik itself.

10 Would you agree with me that as far as the KLA actions are concerned,

11 that that engagement with the Serbs could hardly be called a coordinated

12 effort? Would that be fair?

13 A. In fact it wasn't coordinated.

14 Q. In fact there were civilians in the village who were firing at

15 the Serbs. That's right, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. As well as people from different points that heard the sound of

18 fighting and rushed to join in. Isn't that right?

19 A. They came as an assistance from different points. For example,

20 in one position on the front line you had no idea who it was and from

21 where he came from. You didn't have any time to notice this.

22 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, perhaps my learned friend has something

23 to say.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: I just think it might be helpful if we put on the

25 record which battle in Lapusnik this is, because there have been several

Page 3280

1 different dates of fighting that the witness has testified about.

2 JUDGE PARKER: I understood it was the gorge, which I understood

3 to be one in particular. But Mr. Khan no doubt will clarify that.

4 MR. KHAN: Yes, I'm grateful.

5 Q. Mr. Karpuzi, what I was talking about was the first engagement at

6 Lapusnik in May 1998. Was that your understanding or not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it right, in fact, that in that engagement it was the case

9 that KLA members even shot at each other because they didn't know who was

10 doing what where?

11 A. Very true.

12 Q. And is it correct that fortuitously, perhaps, because of a stray

13 bullet a petrol tank blew up which caused the Serbs to panic and

14 withdraw? Is that right as far as you know or have I got it wrong?

15 A. It's not clear to me. Are we speaking of the occasion when I

16 fired a shell?

17 Q. Still talking about the first engagement in the 8th of May, 1998.

18 A. There were many bullets flying. The Pinzgauer also was set on

19 fire there on the 9th of May there, at the Lapusnik gorge.

20 Q. Now, you say -- you've said earlier today that records were kept

21 for soldiers. This is 16:36:26 of the LiveNote. You said for each

22 soldier there was a piece of paper with the name of the solider, the

23 place of birth and the gun that was issued and these were compiled with

24 respect to each soldier. Do you remember saying that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3281

1 Q. Do you remember when you started keeping those records?

2 A. Approximately a month and a half before the fall of the Lapusnik

3 gorge.

4 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, perhaps the witness can be shown Exhibit

5 P129.

6 Q. Mr. Karpuzi, you remember being asked questions about that

7 document by Mr. Nicholls. Do you remember that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. One thing I wasn't sure about so I thought it would be useful to

10 get your assistance. Do you say that you saw that particular document in

11 1998 when you were in Lapusnik? Is that what you're saying?

12 A. We kept records about the movement of the Serb army vehicles. It

13 was similar to this.

14 Q. But you're not saying that you saw that particular document in

15 1998 in Lapusnik, are you?

16 A. It was in this format. I told the Prosecutor as well that it

17 resembled this one that we kept records about the entrance and departure

18 of the vehicles, how many are withdrawing, how many are coming to that

19 position so that we had an idea about the strength of the Serb forces.

20 Q. Yes. Now, I'm not asking, Mr. Karpuzi, about the form of the

21 document. Looking at what it says, can you say that you saw that

22 document in Lapusnik containing those sentences whilst you were there in

23 1998? Can you remember that or you can't?

24 A. Not exactly this one because this is a copy. It is not possible

25 to have seen this one in Lapusnik.

Page 3282

1 Q. Did you see a document detailing the same facts, the same

2 chronology, the same dates and activities whilst you were in Lapusnik in

3 1998, or can you not remember?

4 A. I answered this to the Prosecution. I told them I wasn't sure,

5 but approximately it could be this way. Even when I gave my statement, I

6 said that I did not remember exactly.

7 Q. So you don't know in fact if that was a document actually

8 compiled by the KLA or not. Is that right? Simply you can say it looks

9 similar to the form adopted whilst you were in Lapusnik. Is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. KHAN: I've no further questions, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Khan.

13 Mr. Nicholls --

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I rise for a brief moment before Mr. Nicholls --


16 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- begins. I have been alerted by the court

17 officer that there is a document that needs to be introduced, and I would

18 ask that it be done so and given the next appropriate number.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Which document is that?

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: That is the document which Mr. Karpuzi was kind

21 enough to circle the houses upon.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received, Mr. Guy-Smith.

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be DB2.

25 JUDGE PARKER: And now Mr. Nicholls.

Page 3283

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Just a couple topics very quickly.

2 Re-examined by Mr. Nicholls:

3 Q. When you arrived and started fighting in Lapusnik in May 1998

4 until you were injured on 26th July, 1998, were you always a member of

5 Celiku 3?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I'm going to ask you now just a couple of questions about the

8 note-taking which you've been asked about. When a soldier came and you -

9 I won't go over the information because you've already explained what

10 information you would record - but how long would it take you on average

11 to put down on paper what you needed for each soldier, about his

12 background, his weapon, that type of thing?

13 A. Approximately half an hour.

14 Q. And would that be typed or handwritten? Can you explain how you

15 would put that down on paper.

16 A. Typed.

17 Q. And about how many of these pieces of paper do you think you put

18 together? How many records did you type up during that month and a half

19 that you were working in the record-keeping?

20 A. Around 60 or 70 papers.

21 Q. Thank you --

22 A. I'm not precise, but approximately 60 or 70 pieces of paper.

23 Q. Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

25 Mr. Karpuzi, you'll be pleased to know that we've come to the end

Page 3284

1 of your evidence. Thank you for your attendance and you're now able to

2 go back to your home. And those assisting you outside will take care of

3 your arrangements.

4 This would seem an opportune time of the day to adjourn. So we

5 will resume tomorrow at 2.15.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.48 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of

10 February, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.