Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4240

 1                           Monday, 14 March, 2005

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.58 p.m.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon, sir.  If I could remind you of the

 7     affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence, which still

 8     applies.

 9             Yes, Mr. Shin.

10             MR. SHIN:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.

11             Just as a preliminary housekeeping matter, I would just note that

12     there is one exhibit under seal for which there was no need for if to be

13     under seal and that ask Exhibit 163.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  So that can be unsealed.

15             MR. SHIN:  Yes, please, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  163, very well.  Thank you.

17                           WITNESS:  Witness Shefqet Kabashi [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19                           Examination by Mr. Shin: [Continued]

20        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honours, forgive me for rising.  There are

23     special measures in place for this witness and I can see his image on the

24     screen in the public gallery.  I also note there is no microphone there

25     for voice distortion.

Page 4241

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Topolski.

 2             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I should say in comfort for the witness his image

 3     is now off the screen and was only there momentarily.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm looking at another screen showing it in a

 5     distorted form.  I see the electronic box behind you, you see.

 6             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Yes.  I see the one the public sees.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Shin.

 8             MR. SHIN:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm not sure we have some

 9     other technical difficulty we're addressing.  Perhaps I'll just wait a

10     moment.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  I think if you commence, Mr. Shin, we'll see

12     whether it's in order now.

13             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Witness, when we broke off on Friday, you were telling us about a

15     meeting in Klecka with Celiku and others.  Was Qerqiz present at that

16     meeting?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry, I didn't hear the beginning of the

18     sentence.  Could he -- ask him to repeat it, please.

19        Q.   Sorry, the translators didn't hear the beginning of the sentence.

20     Could you please repeat what you said.

21        A.   I don't know I said.  It is possible that he was there where the

22     meeting took place in that room earlier.

23        Q.   When you say that, I'm referring now to the meeting in the room

24     where Celiku and as you say approximately 10 other persons were there.

25     Just to be clear, do you know whether Qerqiz was in that meeting?

Page 4242

 1        A.   This is what I'm trying to explain.  I said I'm not sure whether

 2     he entered that particular room or not.

 3        Q.   On Friday you also told us a few names of people who were there

 4     and units that were represented there.  You mentioned a Kumanova,

 5     Gazetari and the leader of the Guri unit.  I'd like to ask you first, did

 6     you at that time know the full name of the person known as Gazetari?

 7        A.   No, I did not.

 8        Q.   Did you learn the true name of that person later on?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And what did you learn it to be?

11        A.   His name was Shukri Buja.

12        Q.   How did you learn that that was his name?

13        A.   I learned that through the media, through television.  I don't

14     know for sure.  I saw that it appeared several times.

15        Q.   Can you tell us approximately when it was that you learned his

16     true name?

17        A.   It was after the war.

18        Q.   Apart from the persons that you have named previously and whom I

19     listed just now, were there any other persons whose name or the name of

20     whose unit you recall being present at that meeting?

21        A.   No.  Apart from what I mentioned earlier.

22        Q.   Witness, have you ever heard of a unit called the Pellumbi unit?

23        A.   Yes, I have heard.

24        Q.   Was anyone from that unit present at that meeting in Klecka with

25     Celiku and others?

Page 4243

 1        A.   There was also someone whose name I don't remember whom I knew

 2     before.  I talked with him.  I'm not certain whether he was from Pellumbi

 3     unit.

 4        Q.   How long was this meeting as far as you can recall?

 5        A.   It didn't last long.  I can't tell you for certain.  I knew -- I

 6     know that it was interrupted because of some shelling nearby, and I think

 7     that was the reason for the interruption of the meeting.

 8        Q.   You had testified on Friday that your unit, you joined that unit

 9     in Malisevo and came with them from Rrasat e Rrahovecit to assist Celiku.

10     These other persons at this meeting, and the other units that were

11     represented, do you know where they were based?

12        A.   Which unit are you asking me about?

13        Q.   Let's begin with the Guri unit.  You had testified that someone

14     from the Guri unit was present at that meeting.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And my question is: Did you know whether the Guri unit was

17     normally based, if you know.

18        A.   I don't know that.

19        Q.   Did you know where Gazetari was normally based?

20        A.   I met him there at the headquarters, and I thought he belonged

21     there.  Also, about the units that reported there, the people who

22     represented those units whom I didn't know their names, whose names I

23     didn't know, I thought that they too belonged to the headquarters.

24        Q.   Could you explain, if possible, why it was that you believed that

25     they belonged to the headquarters?

Page 4244

 1        A.   I believed so because I was there where everyone was reporting,

 2     and this is where I thought that they were -- belonged to the staff, to

 3     the headquarters.

 4        Q.   Witness, how long did you stay at Klecka on that day?

 5        A.   As I said earlier, when the meeting was interrupted because of

 6     the shelling nearby, that was why we left the headquarters.

 7        Q.   Did you go from Klecka to somewhere else?

 8        A.   Yes.  I went to Divjake village.  From there I went to Novoselle,

 9     to the unit where I belonged.

10        Q.   And how long did you stay in Novoselle, with that unit?

11        A.   I don't know for sure.  Maybe it was on the next day that I left.

12        Q.   Where did you go when you left?

13        A.   We went to towards some villages with a small lorry.  There were

14     two people who accompanied us.  I don't know exactly where the places we

15     went through.  I know that we used the asphalt road, the road from

16     Orahovac to Malisevo.  There is a village, Marali, it's called there.

17     And I know that it was early morning when we arrived in Panorc village

18     where we stayed until the next day.

19        Q.   And why was it -- why was it that you left Novo Selo at that

20     time?

21        A.   I know that through the radio communication we received a message

22     from Jablanice, that is, that it was attacked.  And I think that the news

23     arrived at Klecka at the headquarters from where we received orders to go

24     to Jablanice.

25        Q.   Did you speak to anyone before leaving from Novo Selo?

Page 4245

 1        A.   I spoke with a soldier who escorted us on the way whose name I

 2     don't know.

 3        Q.   Who made the decision -- who made the decision to leave Novo

 4     Selo?

 5        A.   After the news that came from Jablanice, the entire unit agreed

 6     to leave.  But as to the decision, I don't know who made the decision.

 7        Q.   And if you can remember who -- who told -- how did you learn, how

 8     did you learn about the message from Jablanica?

 9        A.   I said earlier that I knew that we had some radio contacts.  As

10     far as I remember, the soldier who came with us, who came to call us, who

11     brought the lorry, we was with another person and he told us that we had

12     to go there.  But I don't remember exactly whether we talked about the

13     person who had given the order.  This I don't know.

14        Q.   And the soldier who came with you, do you know what unit he

15     belonged to?

16        A.   No, I don't know.  It is the same person who came and called me

17     to go to Klecke.  It's the same person who came with us.  I can't

18     remember his name.  I never learned his name.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, Your Honour, I would object at this

20     juncture on the grounds of hearsay, an observation that I normally do not

21     raise, because the questions asked and the responses given do not even

22     meet a threshold of reliability with regard to the information received.

23     There's no identification whatsoever of any speakers other than a soldier

24     who is unidentified.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.  A person unidentified;

Page 4246

 1     I know that you can say that is no identification, but in the practice

 2     here it can be.  So that we are well aware that it may be that little can

 3     be attached to that, but it doesn't technically rule itself out on that

 4     footing.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I appreciate the Court's ruling, and I am more

 6     concerned just to highlight the point than to -- to believe that based on

 7     the evidence thus adduced that I would obtain the kind of relief that I

 8     would in other jurisdiction.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  We have to live in the jurisdiction where we are,

10     Mr. Guy-Smith.

11             Yes, Mr. Shin.

12             MR. SHIN:

13        Q.   Witness, on Friday, you had testified that the Lapusnik gorge was

14     overtaken by the Serbs.  My final question on this -- in this area to you

15     is: Do you know what -- do you know when that meeting in Klecka with

16     Celiku and others, when that occurred in relation to the overtaking of

17     Lapusnik gorge by Serb forces?

18        A.   The meeting was a few days after that.  I can't give you an exact

19     date.

20             MR. SHIN:  Your Honour, if we could please go into private

21     session for the next area.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

23 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

24             MR. SHIN:

25        Q.   Witness, you testified on Friday that you had registered with the

Page 4247

 1     KLA at -- at the barracks, a barracks were soldiers were staying.  How

 2     many soldiers were staying there, as far as you can recall?

 3        A.   Some 10 or 15 soldiers.

 4        Q.   And did you -- did you yourself stay at that barracks at some

 5     point?

 6        A.   Yes.  If you mean Jablanice, yes.

 7        Q.   Yes, I do mean Jablanica.  Approximately how long did you stay

 8     there at those barracks?

 9        A.   I don't know exactly how long we stayed, but even after I left

10     that place, I used to go there quite often.

11        Q.   You -- do you know approximately when it was that you stayed

12     there, even if I don't recall exactly how long it was that you stayed

13     there?

14        A.   Are you asking me about the time I went there or...

15        Q.   I'm sorry, my question wasn't clear.  Can you tell us what --

16     when it was that you were staying at the barracks in Jablanica, and you

17     can do that by what month or months it is was, or by any other way that

18     you can explain that.

19        A.   I stayed there when I first went.  That is, in April.  Up to

20     early May.  But during the time we also left the place, we went to other

21     places, to other surrounding villages.  After 21st of May, I remember

22     that I personally went back there again.

23        Q.   If we could just focus on -- on April first -- sorry, on the

24     month of April.

25             Apart from the 10 or 15 soldiers including yourself staying

Page 4248

 1     there, was there -- did you see anybody else who was there?

 2        A.   Yes, I have seen, but I'm not getting the point of your question.

 3        Q.   Were you aware of any persons who were being detained there?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   When did you first become aware of this?

 6        A.   I learned that for the first time on the day I went there.

 7        Q.   Did you see anyone who was being detained there at that time?

 8        A.   Yes, I've seen two persons.

 9        Q.   Could you tell us who they were?

10        A.   Afrim Morina, from Gjakova, someone by the name of Idriz, he was

11     from Polac of Drenica.  He lived in Prizren at that time before he was

12     taken to that place.

13        Q.   Could you describe to us where in those barracks you saw those

14     two people?

15        A.   They were in the same building where I too stayed for some days.

16        Q.   Could you tell us more specifically where in that building you

17     saw these two people?

18        A.   In the same building that I stayed, meaning that this was the

19     only building that was like a barracks, if you like, where soldiers

20     stayed.

21        Q.   Perhaps if I could ask it this way:  Could you please describe

22     the barracks, the physical layout?

23        A.   Yes.  It is located at the -- the exit of Jablanice village. In

24     the direction where you live Jablanica, in the direction of Decane.  It

25     is on the right side of the road.  There were two big wooden gates.  One

Page 4249

 1     part of it was covered.  When you enter the gate on the left side of the

 2     yard, there is a small house with four rooms.  It is a bit higher from

 3     the ground.  It had a small cellar when you entered it, on the left side,

 4     in the next room -- in the second room was where we stayed.  That was the

 5     place where I saw those two persons.

 6        Q.   In the room where you saw those two persons, was -- was the door

 7     locked?

 8        A.   No, it was not.

 9        Q.   Were there -- were there any guards at the door?

10        A.   I can't say that there were guards in the proper sense of the

11     word because we soldiers could go in, could go out.  There wasn't

12     somebody designated to be a guard.

13        Q.   Were there any guards at the house, if not actually at the door?

14        A.   Yes.  At the entrance we used to -- to be guard, to stand there

15     and guard in shifts by three or four hours.

16        Q.   Now, turning back to the two persons that you say that you saw

17     there and beginning with Afrim Morina.  What was his physical condition

18     when you saw him?

19        A.   I used to know Afrim Morina, but when I saw him there, he wasn't

20     in a good state.  He was beaten.  There were some signs on his face.  He

21     used to wear glasses, reading glasses.

22        Q.   The translation said that there were some signs on his face.

23     Could you explain that, please?

24        A.   Yes.  Signs, meaning when somebody hits you, you know, and you

25     can find the injuries, you can see the marks of injuries or the scars on

Page 4250

 1     the face.

 2        Q.   And what was the physical condition, as far as you saw, of the

 3     other person, this Idriz?

 4        A.   His physical condition was also bad.  He was shrunk.  He too had

 5     signs or marks.  I can't tell you whether there were many of them or not,

 6     but there were some.

 7        Q.   Why were these two persons being held there?

 8        A.   To my recollection, from what I heard there, also from Afrim

 9     directly and also from Idriz, Idriz came from Drenica, and he said that

10     he had talked with someone from the KLA there.  He came to Dukagjin

11     plateau to find someone to find arms.  Afrim was his friend.  Afrim was

12     someone who had been engaged in activities or in the organisation field

13     regarding the Kosovo issue.  They met and they came together.  And they

14     asked for weapons.  I'm not clear but this is how it was then.  This is

15     what both of them told me.

16             When they came to the headquarters, they were told that,  We will

17     talk with the leader who sent you here.  Idriz said to me that somebody

18     which the pseudonym of Lisi, this is what he told me, that is Idriz,

19     after contacting that certain Lisi, they told him that you are lying,

20     nobody has sent you.  You have come here to gather information and this

21     is where the bad thing that happened to them started.

22        Q.   And when you say that this is when the bad thing that happened to

23     them started, could you explain what you mean by that?

24        A.   By this I mean their maltreatment.  And the scars and the signs

25     that I saw with my own eyes.

Page 4251

 1        Q.   Do you know how long those two were in that barracks in detention

 2     in Jablanica?

 3        A.   I don't know exactly, but I know that when I went there, they

 4     were there.

 5        Q.   Could you say roughly.  Were they there for more than a week or

 6     less than a week?

 7        A.   I don't know.  I didn't discuss this so I cannot tell you whether

 8     it was one or two weeks.

 9        Q.   Do you know what ultimately happened to Afrim Morina and to this

10     Idriz?

11        A.   I met Afrim much later, maybe it was even earlier that I met him,

12     but I remember meeting him sometime in August.  I'm not certain about the

13     time.  I can describe the conversation I had with him.  He told me that I

14     left and I went to Baran, in Azem municipality [phoen] [as interpreted],

15     under the command of Tahir Zema.  They had barracks there.  It was in

16     August after I returned to Jablanica for some days.  I was in Jablanica

17     with some friends of mine whom I knew from the past, when I was a

18     soldier, and I said so him, Are you coming?  No, he said, because you

19     know what I have been through.  I know that he told me that he was

20     injured at the entrance to Gllogjan.  I said I went there as

21     reinforcements and he was injured on his arm.  He showed me the wound.

22     He showed me also about Idriz.  He said, Yes they accepted him as a

23     soldier.  He participated in the attack on Jablanica.  He wasn't good

24     enough and he was killed by the Serbs.  Then he was massacred, he said.

25        Q.   And just so that we're clear, when you say that Afrim told you

Page 4252

 1     that hes with a soldier and that Idriz had become a soldier, what -- who

 2     were they soldiers for?  Was that -- I'll leave it at that:  Who were

 3     they soldiers for?

 4        A.   They were KLA soldiers, but I -- but I know that Afrim went to

 5     Jaran [phoen], whereas Idriz to Jablanice headquarters.

 6        Q.   Did you see other people who were being detained at those

 7     barracks in the month of April?

 8        A.   I don't remember.

 9        Q.   Did you see anyone there who was detained in the month of May?

10        A.   Yes.  In May, on the 21st of May, I saw two.

11        Q.   Could you --

12        A.   They were tied up.

13        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt.  Could you tell us who it was that you

14     saw?

15        A.   Their names I don't know.

16        Q.   Was there anything that you did know about them, if not their

17     names?

18        A.   Those two persons on the 21st of May in the morning, that day

19     that I participated in the front fighting where a friend of mine got

20     killed, I saw them earlier.  They said that they were Roma or Gypsy -

21     this is what is what we say - they suspected them of something.  I didn't

22     see them anymore that day and I wasn't interested in them.  When we

23     returned on the same day in the evening, I know that I saw them in that

24     part that was covered, it was lam [phoen], we called it, like a stable.

25     They were tied with a wire and I know that they were son-in-law and

Page 4253

 1     father-in-law.  That is, they were in-laws.

 2        Q.   And just to clarify, when you say that you saw them in that part

 3     that was covered, is that a part of the barracks in Jablanica?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And when you tell us that they suspected them of something, who

 6     is the "they"?  Who suspected these two persons of something?

 7        A.   The fact that they were tied up means that they were suspected of

 8     one thing or another.  I can't tell you who suspected of them, because I

 9     didn't know who brought them there.

10        Q.   Did you learn anything about what it was that they were suspected

11     of?

12        A.   No, I don't know.  I can't tell you.

13        Q.   What was the physical condition of these two people when you saw

14     them?

15        A.   I can't describe that.  I can't describe it in fact.

16        Q.   Do you know what ultimately happened to those two persons?

17        A.   No.  I do know that Lahija, my first leader, said that I will

18     sent them to Drenica.  I heard him say that.  I don't know -- remember

19     with whom he was talking when I heard that.  At that time, these words,

20     meaning if you send somebody to Drenica, you will see the end of that

21     person.  That person was supposed to be executed.

22        Q.   Did anyone tell you specifically that that's what that phrase

23     meant?

24        A.   That was a phrase that was constantly used that.  Was the meaning

25     of that phrase that I knew.

Page 4254












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Page 4255

 1        Q.   Witness, was there somebody else at that barracks at some point

 2     that was detained, someone that you knew from before?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Who was that?

 5        A.   There were two persons.  I met them when I was coming from

 6     Albania.  I don't know exactly at what time I met them.  It might have

 7     been the beginning of July or the mid-July.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us the names of those two persons?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And what are those name, please.  We are in private session.

11        A.   Yes, I know.  Pal Krasniqi from Kline and Skender Kugi from a

12     village close by to the village that I come from.

13        Q.   What was the physical condition of those two persons when you saw

14     them?

15        A.   That day I stopped before the door, I was with a group of

16     friends.  They were from Drini Valley.  Most of them were Catholics some

17     of them I knew from before.  We were returning from Albania.  We stopped

18     there because I used to go to that headquarters to meet some friends.

19     When we went inside I saw those two persons.  Lahi had told me, Do you

20     know them?  Do you know your neighbour?  I said, Yes, what has he done,

21     why is he here, I said.  You -- you don't know that he was a big fish,

22     meaning a big spy.  This is how I understood the word to mean.  He said,

23     he has worked for UBD, Yugoslavia secret service and then I asked, I

24     asked I talked with Pal because his brother is a friend of mine, even

25     today.  And for the sake of his brother, I asked him he said, I don't

Page 4256

 1     know why I'm here.  I came here to enlist to become a KLA soldier.  I

 2     stayed as a soldier for one week and then they suspected me to be a spy

 3     and they brought me here, he told me.  I saw it with my own eyes.  He was

 4     maltreated. He was reading a book that I saw him.

 5        Q.   And when you say he was maltreated could you explain briefly how

 6     he looked?

 7        A.   I don't know how to put it.  Somebody beats you, you can see the

 8     marks of the beating.  You can always tell when somebody is badly beaten.

 9        Q.   Did either of these two persons say anything to you about the

10     accusations against them, that they were a spy, or a big spy?

11        A.   Didn't tell me anything.  Pal told me that.  After Lahi left

12     together with Bandash.  I don't know his true name even now.  I asked Pal

13     myself.  I told him Pal tell me, why are you here, what have you done?

14     He said, They have maltreated me greatly.  They forced me to admit to

15     them that an inspector from Peja sent me to get information from KLA.  He

16     said, Then I accept it because they were beating me and I said Yes, and I

17     said to him You shouldn't have accepted this but I understand what it

18     means to -- when you are forced to admit something, because I tried it on

19     my own back at a later time.

20        Q.   Just so that we're clear when you say he told you that he had

21     been forced to admit that an inspector had sent him to get information

22     about the KLA, and inspector for whom?

23        A.   It was an inspector from Peja.  His name was Aca.  Almost

24     everybody in Peja knew that person.  An inspector is somebody who is

25     supposed to capture people who commit a theft or rob something.

Page 4257

 1        Q.   I'm sorry, just to be clear, this is -- who does this inspector

 2     work for?

 3        A.   He worked for the Serb service.

 4        Q.   Could you explain, if you know, what ultimately happened to

 5     Skender Kugi and Pal Krasniqi?

 6        A.   When I left them the day, I went towards Malisevo.  It was July.

 7     This is what I remember, if I am not wrong even though much time was

 8     elapsed.  Then we arrived in Drenica and towards Likovc there are several

 9     villages there.  Isdrime [phoen] was the last point.  When you come from

10     Kline and between Kline and Istog then we went in that direction right at

11     Drenace village.  Then I borrowed a car from a friend and we drove -- all

12     over those villages to arrive at the village where my family lives.  I

13     met my relatives and I told my uncle about these two persons whom he too

14     knew.  I told him they were suspected of being collaborators, of being

15     spies.  My uncle said I don't believe that, because -- we were talking

16     more about Skender because he said Skender was a person whom he knew, and

17     there were many persons -- there were certificates to prove that he sent

18     foodstuffs to the KLA, food provisions.  And my uncle said, I don't

19     believe that, because he will to work with the Serbs.  He had to get

20     commodities, goods from them.  But I don't think he has -- he is a spy,

21     so he told me.  If you can do something about him, please do that, to

22     save him.

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 4258

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6             I don't know about Pal.  After the offensive, after the attacks,

 7     I heard that -- it was September -- I don't know what happened to them

 8     after that. I met his brother after the war.  He said I don't know, his

 9  (redacted)

10     with him I told him -- I went to KLA that he had no heard about him after

11     that.

12        Q.   And after -- after Skender died, do you know what happened to the

13     body?

14        A.   Yes.  He was buried nearby.  There was a building meant to be an

15     ambulance it was not finished yet.  He was buried behind that building.

16     I heard that his family tried to find out about him.  They wanted to take

17     away his body from that place.  Somebody in Jablanice told me that they

18     took him to another place where some relatives of his were living.  This

19     is what I heard.  I didn't see it with my own eyes.

20        Q.   Do you know where he was ultimately buried?

21        A.   I thought first he was buried in Jablanice.  Then his body was

22     buried in Irzniq.  Some soldiers accompanied him.  I don't know where.

23     This is what I heard, that he was buried in Irzniq.

24        Q.   And who did you hear this from?

25        A.   I heard this in Jablanice.  From some friends.

Page 4259

 1        Q.   When you say some soldiers accompanied him, what does that mean?

 2        A.   I heard.  This is what I heard, I'm saying.  That some soldiers

 3     accompanied him and that he was buried with military honours.  This is

 4     what I heard.

 5        Q.   Did you speak to anyone about the fact that you had heard that he

 6     had been buried with military honours?

 7        A.   Yes.  I talked with Lahi about that.  Asked him, I told him that

 8     I have heard that he was buried with military honours.  I remember you

 9     telling me that he is a spy.  And you -- how come you didn't know him

10     even though he was your neighbour?  He said, Forget about that.  These

11     are rumours.  So I didn't pursue it further.

12        Q.   And you mentioned Lahi and you mentioned him a couple of other

13     times.

14             When you mention Lahi, is that the same person?  I'm sorry, let

15     me ask this first.  Who is Lahi when you talk about him here?

16        A.   Lahi is the same person that I have been mentioning all over

17     here, in my statement.  His name is Lahi Ibrahimaj.  His pseudonym was

18     Magjupi first.  That is the person that I'm talking about.

19        Q.   And when you say that Lahi told you that these are rumours what

20     was he talking about?  They were rumours that he was a spy or there were

21     rumours that he was buried with military honours?

22        A.   He meant that they were words.  Words he meant, the military

23     honours.  He said, Forget about them that is not true.  This is what the

24     implication of his word.  That was the answer to my question, when I

25     asked him, that I heard that he was buried with military honours.

Page 4260

 1        Q.   Witness, apart from the persons that you have named, if you could

 2     just answer yes or no to this question.  Did you see other persons being

 3     detained at Jablanica in that barracks?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You've mentioned -- some of the people you have mentioned have

 6     been -- you mentioned that they showed signs of being beaten.  Did you

 7     actually yourself see these people, these detainees being beaten?

 8        A.   Yes, I've seen them.

 9        Q.   And just from what you've seen, could you name some of the people

10     that you saw carrying out these beatings, if you know their names?  And

11     bearing in mind we are in private session.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me Your Honour, I'm going to at this point

13     interpose an observation.  Which I think is more than just being on --

14     it's Monday I had had some rest over the weekend.  But this entire line

15     of questioning is outside the matters charged in our indictment, it deals

16     with an entirely different geographical area.  Deals with an entirely

17     different participants.  I believe I understand some of the reason why

18     the Prosecution may be seeking this testimony.  However, they are in a

19     better position than I, of course, to explain that to the Court if need

20     be.  But with regard to the last question asked which is the names of

21     people, unless those names are in some way connected to people who are on

22     trial here, I think that it stretches the bound the relevance.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Shin.

24             MR. SHIN:  Your Honour, I believe Mr. Guy-Smith anticipated my

25     response, which is that these -- these events do go to the widespread or

Page 4261

 1     systematic nature of these incidents.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  And the names?

 3             MR. SHIN:  I'm sorry?

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  The names.

 5             MR. SHIN:  With regard to the names I would submit that the names

 6     of these persons engaged in these beatings go to first of all,

 7     completeness of the story.  And secondly, they go to some indication of

 8     the nature of this widespread and systematic event.  In other words, and

 9     I don't wish to anticipate too much the witness's testimony on this

10     point, but the persons who are involved in it, the persons who is are

11     involved in the direct beatings do reflect the manner in which these

12     incidents were carried out in this particular place, and we would submit

13     that is this a as spent of the widespread and systematic nature of these

14     crimes which is relevant to this case.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

16             Carry on, Mr. Shin.  The decision is that there is a potential

17     relevance.

18             MR. SHIN:

19        Q.   Witness, bearing in mind that we are in private session, of the

20     beatings that you saw yourself now, that yourself saw, can you name some

21     of these -- can you name the persons that you saw carrying out those

22     beatings?

23        A.   Before I give these names, is it possible to make an explanation?

24     I think it is useful to the Court and to the counsel as well.  If I'm

25     allowed to make it.

Page 4262

 1        Q.   Witness, if you could please try answering the question first and

 2     then provided an explanation.  Could we do it that way?

 3        A.   Yes.  I saw Lahi Ibrahimaj, when he beat Jah Bushati which I

 4     didn't mention.  I saw Togeri.  Idriz Bala was his name.  I learned it

 5     later.  In the beginning nobody knew it.  He came to the Jablanica

 6     headquarters.  Anybody he found he would beat them.  I saw Bandashi.  The

 7     same thing.  I could say the same thing about him as well.  I saw Muftari

 8     and from what I know he was the person that took Jah Bushati and brought

 9     him to the headquarters.  And another one Xhevdeti, he was from

10     Jablanica.  I saw him once.  I did not see him the same as the other

11     people in the sense that...

12        Q.   Witness, did you wish to provide an explanation to that now?

13        A.   Yes, if I'm allowed to.

14        Q.   Yes.  Please go ahead.  Please go ahead and provide an

15     explanation of your answer.

16        A.   It is very difficult for me to be here and testify.  I am an

17     Albanian; that's what I think, at least.  But there are people who are in

18     a more difficult position than me because -- because they have been

19     accused.  The people that I mentioned earlier and people of the same --

20     of the same ilk, they have called me a traitor.  Well, I've been in

21     prison in Nis for three months and three days.

22             THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction:  Imprisonment was for

23     three years and three months.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked for a private session here,

25     because there are many criminals at large in Kosovo now.  They have

Page 4263

 1     killed many people during the war and after the war as well.  It was a

 2     very difficult situation after the war.  I have had threats, there have

 3     been threats to my family, to my father --

 4             MR. KHAN:  I apologise for interpreting up the witness.  And I

 5     know we are all very grateful that he has come to come to the Court to

 6     give his evidence and for Your Honours to assist that.  But Your Honours,

 7     there is a difference between explaining testimony and going on a detour

 8     about matter about which in fact have not been raised in

 9     examination-in-chief and I would ask Your Honours to -- exclude the

10     witness commenting on matters which have not in fact been sought to be

11     elicited in examination-in-chief.  By all means, an explanation in

12     relation to evidence but not in relation to collateral matters which need

13     not engage your Your Honours’ time.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Khan for having concern at the time

15     but in the personal and political circumstance, think in fairness to the

16     witness, he should be allowed to express these matters that concern him

17     deeply about his evidence.

18             If there is more that you wish to say.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I don't want to take

20     too much of your time myself.  But these are many things that have

21     followed me all the time, from the time of the war, in the prison, and

22     now as well.  And it's been very difficult for me to come here and give

23     evidence.  And that's why I have asked for it to be a private session.

24     It's because of my family, of my relatives.  There are many people who

25     don't know about the things that have happened.  Many people have been

Page 4264

 1     killed after the war in Kosovo.  They were innocent, they were killed

 2     only because they believed in one party or another party.  I don't belong

 3     to any party, but I never said things that did not exist or did not

 4     happen, although I have been called a traitor.  Those people can well

 5     remain there where they are in their lofty positions as patriots, while I

 6     am here.

 7             This is an international court.  This is not a court about Serbia

 8     as it's been called in Kosovo.  And that's why I would like to apologise

 9     if I make any mistakes or give inaccurate dates because it's been a long

10     time and I can't remember all of the things as they happened and I'm very

11     excited and nervous at this moment.  That's all.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

13             Yes, Mr. Shin.

14             MR. SHIN:

15        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  To the best of your knowledge what was Lahi

16     Ibrahimaj's position at Jablanica?

17        A.   At his home.

18        Q.   I'm sorry my question may have come unclear.  What was his --

19     what was his position within the KLA at Jablanica?

20        A.   In the beginning when I went to Jablanica, he was a commander.  I

21     can corroborate that with another fact.  Because at the moment I went

22     there to the barracks from the headquarters -- the headquarters was

23     Lahi's house -- when I was sent to be admitted as a soldier.  I met

24     Leopardi.  He admitted me as a soldier.  He accepted me there.

25             But how I knew that Lahi was a commander.  This was because many

Page 4265

 1     people from the village came, some in uniform, some without a uniform,

 2     they came from various villages, and there was a list that he made that

 3     he put -- posted at the gate of the barracks and this list described the

 4     people who had the right to go inside the barracks and the first name

 5     there was Lahi Ibrahimaj's name.  There was were other names as well but

 6     this is the fact that showed me that he was the leader there.

 7        Q.   As far as you know, was there anyone in a more senior position to

 8     Lahi Ibrahimaj in Jablanica?

 9        A.   As far as I know, no.

10        Q.   Very briefly on Jah Bushati.  Was he -- just to confirm: Was he a

11     detainee at Jablanica?

12        A.   Yes, I said it earlier.  Jah Bushati  was stopped by Muftari.  He

13     was traveling from Kosarice to Dukagjin in the direction of Jablanica.

14     There is a hill there.  There is a river as well the Betonaj River

15     [phoen] and he was stopped on the way.  Muftari brought him to Jablanica.

16        Q.   Do you know why -- do you know why Jah Bushati was stopped and

17     why he was brought to Jablanica?

18        A.   I don't know.  I can't say anything concrete about this.  He was

19     stopped because he had done some spy work.  A day or two before that,

20     somebody had been shot.  This person was with his brother and his brother

21     escaped.  This was a person call the Shala from Buqan.  But I don't know,

22     I can't -- maybe his surname, I can't give you his surname.  So one of

23     them was killed and the other injured.  And later, in Jablanica, I heard

24     that Jaha had something to do with this.

25        Q.   Witness, was there a time in 1998 when you left Jablanica and did

Page 4266

 1     not return?

 2        A.   Yes, I left.

 3        Q.   And when was that, as far as you can recall?

 4        A.   I don't know exactly.  Maybe by the end of September.

 5        Q.   And bearing in mind that we are in private session, could you

 6     explain briefly why it was that you left?

 7        A.   I'll try to be brief.  There were around 76 soldiers, 76 of us in

 8     the headquarters, in Jablanica.  Maybe not the headquarters but the

 9     barracks where the soldiers stayed.  After we had some kind of counting

10     of the soldiers, and I know that we had lunch, I had to go to the point

11     together with my -- two of my uncle's sons, together with which I was a

12     soldier.  Jaha and Brahimi [as interpreted].  Jaha was killed by the

13     Serbs on the 22nd of October, 1998.  Bashkim was wounded on his head.

14     And because of the wound, he cannot see now, and he has a lot of problems

15     with his brain, his mind.  They went to the point while Mala stopped me.

16     He told me that you have to do a very important job.  He gave me a

17     revolver, a Croatian type, 15, number 15, and he told me you have to kill

18     Rrok Berisha tonight.  I asked why, and he said, this offensive that

19     happened in Luga e Baranit is because of him.

20             I took the gun.  I went to Jaha and Bashtimi.  I told them, This

21     is what happened to me, I have been given this order.  Jaha could not

22     believe me.  He said, you are joking.  This is not -- this cannot be

23     true.  And I told him, Yes, this is true, I'm telling you.  He said if I

24     knew that these things happened within the KLA, I would not join.

25             We stayed there for half an hour, or an hour, I'm not sure how

Page 4267

 1     long.  I was thinking about what I would do, and I told Jaha I want to go

 2     and see whether this person looks like.

 3             During that conversation, Jaha told me and my family told me that

 4     our families have this traditional and we know each other because we

 5     lived in the Zhabel village.  My father was born there.  There is in the

 6     Gjakova municipality, close to Jablanica.

 7        Q.   If I could just interrupt you please do not mention the name of

 8     your home village and there is no need to mention the names of your

 9     cousins either.

10             MR. SHIN:  And Your Honours out of an abundance of caution have

11     the names of his cousins redacted.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

13             MR. SHIN:

14        Q.   Witness, sorry to interrupt you.  Please continue.

15        A.   So I was told by my family that his family was a very good one

16     and a loyal one.  I mean the family of the person.  I knew that he was an

17     activist in the LDK.  He had also been a member of the human rights

18     organisation or association.  I went to his door, and called out his

19     name.  He came out.  I started to talk with him.  I told him who I was,

20     and I told him why I was there.  He said No problem.  Well, if it's worth

21     it, you can kill me, if you think it's worth it.  And I said no, I have

22     come here to ask you, is there anything bad, is there anything wrong

23     between you and the leaders?  And he said, No, I have been on very good

24     terms, especially with Ramush Haradinaj.  We had a meeting in my room, in

25     my soba [phoen], when both sides came together.  That's what they

Page 4268

 1     referred to.  It was the Tahir Zemi side and Ramush Haradinaj side.  So

 2     they had supper here. We had very good relations, both with Tahir and

 3     Ramush.  And he said, Only when they came in Gllogjan we exchanged some

 4     words with regard to the population.  Only that.  I don't know of

 5     anything else.

 6             If you want me to speak more at length about this case...

 7        Q.   Witness, if you could just -- just say was it -- my question had

 8     been to you why you had left Jablanica without returning.  Was this the

 9     reason, this assignment that you had been given, was this the reason that

10     you had left?

11        A.   To come to the reason why I left, I made another appointment with

12     that person later that night, so I met him again.  Both of us knew that

13     or believed that people were being killed. Innocent people were being

14     killed for personal interests of people.  People who were within the KLA.

15     And I said to him, If you can influence leaders of the KLA or people who

16     the Kosovan people trust, and I said, If you want me -- if you want me to

17     escort you to take you to another place to be safe I can do that.  He

18     said no, no, there is no need for that.  So we had that appointment again

19     with him.  I sent word to my leader, the one who gave me that gun, and I

20     said to him, Take your gun back and we will see each other later, again.

21             So I went back home.  I spoke to my family and they told me, No,

22     you can't do these things, if somebody tells you to kill another person

23     without any fact or any trial or anything like that.  I stayed for some

24     days at home.  I was ready to go back, but some relatives came to me and

25     mentioned that case, and asked me -- and they said How could you, how

Page 4269












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13   English transcripts.













Page 4270

 1     could you do that?  How were you -- how could you be prepared to kill

 2     Rrok Berisha and I was surprised, how could people know about that thing.

 3     So I went back home and I waited until October.  There was a person who

 4     came from Montenegro with many people from there, and I wrote a letter.

 5     I sent it to Ramush Haradinaj.  He responded to me through relatives - I

 6     don't want to give names - the response was that I don't know about these

 7     things.  I'm not aware. I have kept that letter at home.  He said I'm not

 8     aware about these things.  I knew these as strong soldiers.  Many other

 9     good words.  And he said you can come back, I can place you here or

10     somewhere else if you want.  But it was a very turbulent time.  OSCE was

11     there.  There was a cease-fire between the KLA and the Serbs.  We were

12     waiting during those days.

13             A neighbour came to me during those days, and he spoke of similar

14     cases that had happened to him.  We had many plans to go to Rugova or to

15     go to Albania where people were being trained.  That's what we had heard.

16     It was close to the new year.  We had prepared some winter clothes when

17     they came at about 5.00 in the morning.  We were surrounded.  The Serb

18     forces surrounded us --

19             MR. SHIN:  [Previous translation continues] ... break that.  Your

20     Honours, I'm not sure if that is a suitable time to break.  I'm sorry,

21     Witness.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Because of our disrupted starting time I am

23     contemplating this session ending at about 20 minutes to which will be

24     the limit of our tapes and having only one break.  So carry on for a

25     time.

Page 4271

 1             MR. SHIN:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Witness, sorry to have interpreted you.  I think for this we can

 3     go into open session, but just before we do, can I just one

 4     clarification.  You had mentioned that your cousin had been shot and the

 5     translation claim through as 22nd of October 1998.  Is that date correct?

 6        A.   No.  It was the 22nd of December when he was killed.

 7        Q.   And just one more question in closed session before we go to

 8     open.

 9             You mentioned -- you testified that you were in prison for three

10     and a half years.  Could you tell us when it was that you were released?

11        A.   I was released on the 26th of March.  I was transferred --

12     transferred to the Dubrava prison and on it's 27th of March, I was

13     released.  There was this agreement between Steiner and the leadership of

14     Kosovo and Batic, from Serbia.  I don't know who else it was that they

15     had the agreement with.

16             MR. SHIN:  If we could go back into open session, please.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Before then, could you determine when it was that

18     he was arrested.

19             MR. SHIN:

20        Q.   Witness, could you please give us the date that you were

21     arrested?

22        A.   22nd of December, 1998.

23        Q.   And when you say you were released on the 27th of March, what

24     year was that?

25        A.   I was released on the 27th of March 2002.

Page 4272

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.  A quick observation:  The witness's answer

 3     commencing on page 26, line 10 and concluding at page 30, line 10, deals

 4     with matters that I believe are outside of the geographic and temporal

 5     bounds of the indictment, a matter that we have raised on previous

 6     occasions, and would object to the answer and the information contained

 7     therein on those grounds.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  That is noted, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 9             MR. SHIN:  Yes, open session, please.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Open session.

11                           [Open session]

12             MR. SHIN:

13        Q.   Witness, without mentioning the specific dates or the name of the

14     place, could you tell us what happened when the Serb forces came to your

15     village?

16        A.   It was around 5.00 in the morning.  The neighbours close to us,

17     next door, they told us that they had heard noises, noises, cars sometime

18     that morning.  We were -- I was in my room on the first floor of the

19     house.  There was only one room in that -- on that floor.

20             When I got up, I saw the police in the yard.  I saw my father in

21     the yard.  I saw them going into my uncle's house, breaking -- smashing

22     the windows, and I did not know what to do.  We had some guns that we had

23     hidden in my uncle's -- my uncle's son's house.  There were many.  We had

24     -- there were many people there.  There were around 50.000 people in the

25     place where I lived, in the village where I lived, together with my

Page 4273

 1     relatives.  I just put on my trousers and I sat down there.  They came

 2     into the room with their guns.  They tied me and they threw me to the

 3     floor just like many other people.  The OSCE came, there were many

 4     policemen in the room.  I was tried to hide from them.  I don't know for

 5     how long I was lying there.  There was this big arm chair that was on --

 6     placed over my head.  Then I was taken outside, placed against the wall.

 7     I saw my uncle's son there as well.  He was also tied.  And the same --

 8     the same thing happened again there.  We were hit several times.  We were

 9     taken into a police Jeep.  On the way to Peja we were stopped and taken

10     out of the Jeep and into a Zastava-type vehicle.  There were some

11     civilians in that car and they asked me questions, were you a soldier?

12     And I said yes.  And I know that they hit me several times.  I was

13     covered in blood.  From Tuesday, then it was Friday in the evening that

14     they were taken to the prison, if I'm not mistaken.

15        Q.   Witness, where were you first taken?

16        A.   In the prison in Peja.

17        Q.   Now the persons in your home village who came to get you, you

18     said they hit you.  Just to be clear.  What do you mean by they?  Who are

19     they?

20        A.   The Serbs, the policemen.  There were civilians as well, but they

21     were all the same.

22        Q.   Were you taken somewhere after you were the Peja police station?

23        A.   To the Peja prison.

24        Q.   And after that were you taken somewhere?

25        A.   Yes.  I stayed for some time in the Peja prison.  But on the 3rd

Page 4274

 1     of May, 1998, we were transferred to the Dubrava prison in a bus.  This

 2     was in 1999.  There were people in that bus with their arms broken, with

 3     their skull open.  We were take be to the Dubrava prison.  They called me

 4     and two other people from my family, and they told us to step aside.  We

 5     stayed there in that prison until the 19th of May.  NATO bombed on the

 6     19th of May, Pavilion C where I was, and my uncle's son came to the cell

 7     door and he said I think we are going to be free.  It was very difficult

 8     to open that door.  The guards had all left.  There were no guards, only

 9     prisoners in the prison.  There were some old people, elderly people, and

10     also people who had stayed there for a long time, people who had

11     committed crimes or people like us who were called terrorists.

12        Q.   Witness, sorry to interrupt you there, just to be clear: Who was

13     calling you a terrorist at that point?

14        A.   The Serbs, the guards in the prison.  We were all terrorists for

15     them.

16        Q.   And after you had been at this prison, were you then taken

17     somewhere else?  And please don't mention the specific date of your

18     transfer if there was a transfer.

19             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, just in a motive of assisting my learned

20     friend and hopefully that he can achieve his target of five more minutes,

21     I'm quite content for the witness to be let on all these issues.  They

22     are not a matter of dispute between the parties and may save court time

23     and it may assist my friend to get things moving faster.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Khan.

25             MR. SHIN:  Thank you.

Page 4275

 1        Q.   Witness could you please mention the name of the prison you were

 2     taken to next, from the prison?

 3        A.   Until the 10th of June -- from the 24th of May to the 10th of

 4     June, we were transferred to Lipjan.  On the 10th of June, in the

 5     morning, again, we were taken in buses to Serbia, all of us.  I was lucky

 6     to remain in Nis together with my uncle.  My uncle's son was taken to

 7     Pograxhe although he was wounded.  I don't know where they took the other

 8     people. Pograxhe, Sem [phoen], Belgrade and other prisons.

 9        Q.   And witness, when you were originally arrested by the Serbian

10     forces you say that you were beaten.  Have you recovered fully from those

11     beatings?

12        A.   They never stopped.  I thought that maybe after the

13     investigation, after I went to prison it would be easier for me.  That

14     they would go easier on me.  But it happened in the prison as well.  But

15     when the bombing, the bombing started, we did not even have bread to eat.

16     We were beaten daily inside there.

17        Q.   And, Witness, how is your physical condition now?  Are there any

18     injuries still remaining from those beatings?

19        A.   I don't know.  I haven't been to the doctor, to have a check-up

20     or anything.  I have been a sports person before.  Before the Milosevic

21     regime [as interpreted] it was easier for us.  We had good food, we had

22     the right to go out in the yard in the prison and walk a little bit.  We

23     could do some exercises, physical exercises, and there was enough food.

24             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, I have no further questions.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Shin. We will have a break now and

Page 4276

 1     resume at 10 minutes past 5.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 4.41 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 5.13 p.m.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Shin.

 5             Before that happens, I understand that is a matter of

 6     interpretation to be mentioned.

 7             THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter would like to make a correction.

 8     It was before we broke last session.  It was said, if I can find it on

 9     the transcript.  I said "before the Milosevic regime"; it should be

10     "after Milosevic fell".

11             MR. SHIN:  It's page 35 at the very end of page 34 and page 35,

12     lines 1 and 2.  Line 1, in fact.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Thank you very much for making that

14     correction.

15             Mr. Shin.

16             MR. SHIN:  And Your Honours, the Prosecution had no further

17     questions.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

19                           Cross-examined by Mr. Khan:

20             MR. KHAN:  If it please Your Honour.

21        Q.   Witness, my name is Karim Kahn along with lead counsel Michael

22     Mansfield we represent Fatmir Limaj who sits behind us.  Do you

23     understand?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now hopefully you will be pleased to know, no doubt, that we

Page 4277

 1     don't intent to detain you too long.

 2             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, it may be of some assistance if I very

 3     briefly detail the areas that I intend to ask questions about.

 4        Q.   And witness, they surround your initial joining of the KLA.  I

 5     will then ask you some questions about your alleged meeting with

 6     Commander Celiku in Klecka.  What I'm not going to ask you any questions

 7     about is anything about Jablanica, simply because we don't know anything

 8     about that.  And that's the reason why -- while whilst not accepting what

 9     you say, we're not going to ask you questions.  Do you understand?

10        A.   Yes, I understand you very well.

11        Q.   Simply, we don't know what happened.

12             Now, Witness, it's correct, isn't it, that you joined the Kosovo

13     Liberation Army when you were 21 years of age.  That's right, isn't it?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And at the time you joined, you had no previous military

16     experience; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And I think you explained to Their Honours that the first

19     training you had was about a month after you first joined the Kosovo

20     Liberation Army in the middle of May 1998; is that right?

21        A.   I said from mid-April to mid-May.  This is how long the exercise

22     or the training lasted.  But even before that, I took part in the front.

23        Q.   Do you remember saying yesterday --

24             MR. KHAN:  And Your Honours, it's LiveNote page 21, line 24 and

25     25.

Page 4278

 1        Q.   Do you remember saying yesterday, when you were asked about

 2     training that the training occurred "sometime in mid-May after I had

 3     started to participate in other fronts as well."   Do you remember saying

 4     that?

 5        A.   First you said yesterday.  Yesterday I didn't say anything.

 6     Secondly, I didn't start in the middle of May, but I am repeating it.

 7     The training started in the middle of April.

 8        Q.   Witness, you're quite correct.  Thank you for correcting me, I do

 9     appreciate it.  I meant, of course, on Friday before we broke up.

10     You said that the training occurred in mid-May "after I started to

11     participate in other fronts as well."   Do you remember saying that as

12     well or not?

13        A.   No.  I am repeating.  I didn't start, that the training started

14     in mid-May.  It did start in mid-April.  Maybe it's a mistake of

15     translation or some misunderstanding.

16        Q.   But the training started after you joined the KLA, and started

17     after you had engaged in operations.  Is that right or not?

18        A.   Yes, that's right.

19        Q.   And the training that you were given by the KLA, that took place

20     in the village -- in the villages where were you were based; is that

21     right?

22        A.   Yes.  In those villages, and around those villages.

23        Q.   There was no special KLA training centre, was there?

24        A.   You're asking me there, in that place or somewhere else?

25        Q.   In the place where you started your training, you say now in the

Page 4279

 1     middle of April.

 2        A.   There were some special places for that.  But in the village, in

 3     the village where I was based, and in the -- other villages there were

 4     some fields, pastures, gorges or parts of mountains where we were trained

 5     in different military exercises.

 6        Q.   Yes.  And apart from these fields and gorges, there was no

 7     special centre with special facilities, specifically focused on training

 8     a new army.  That's correct, isn't it?

 9        A.   In the school of Zhabel village, a village near Jablanice, there

10     was a shooting ground which we ourselves built to be more or less in

11     conformity with the standards of the western armies.  That was also a

12     place where we could exercise and train ourselves together with other

13     villagers.  It was in the courtyard of the school of Zhabel village.

14        Q.   And there was a huge problem of shortage of weapons when you

15     joined the KLA; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   I think, for example, you yourself were given a somewhat of an

18     antique, old Russian rifle; is that right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And many of your comrades had old rifles and old hunting rifles.

21     It wasn't the best and most modern equipment, was it.  People found and

22     used what they could.

23        A.   Yes, they did use those kind of weapons that you mentioned.

24        Q.   And because people and many of your comrades that you spoke to

25     joined for exactly the same reason that you had joined, in that you had

Page 4280

 1     enough of this lengthy period of Serb domination, discrimination and

 2     persecution and you decided that the only way you would get liberty was

 3     to fight for your rights.  Isn't that right?

 4        A.   Yes.  But at the time this was what I thought and that's why I

 5     did what I did.

 6        Q.   Just going back to training.  You were never given any lectures

 7     on the 1994 Geneva Conventions or the Protocols Additional thereto, or

 8     The Hague Regulations, were you?  It was very basic, crawling and

 9     climbing and shooting your old weapons.  But you weren't given lessons on

10     the laws of war, were you?

11        A.   No.  They did not.  They taught us how to shoot with a gun, but

12     maybe I didn't get you right in when you mention those conventions and

13     regulations.  Nobody taught us anything about that.

14        Q.   You did get me right, thank you.  And there was no discussion

15     about strategy or larger questions of the operation of a military

16     machine, was there?

17        A.   No.  I don't remember anyone telling us anything about the

18     strategy.  I know that when I went to Albania to get arms, some people

19     used -- learned to use heavy arms like artillery or grenade-launchers.

20     In those places where some people were located, those people who received

21     the people that went there to get arms.

22        Q.   Now, you say that the second occasion that you saw Celiku was

23     when you went to Klecka.  That's correct, isn't it?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And that was the day that Klecka was attacked; is that right?

Page 4281

 1        A.   The way I understand attack is rather different.  I see it in --

 2     two different points of view.  There were many please in Kosova that were

 3     shelled now and again.  You might call that attack.  That night that I

 4     told -- spoke here about there was a shelling.  But the attack with

 5     infantry troops, if it happened it didn't happen on that day that I was

 6     there.  It might have taken place on another day.

 7        Q.   You remember giving a statement to the Prosecution in October

 8     2004, do you?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And that statement was read back to you and you signed that

11     statement; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And do you remember telling the Prosecution in that statement

14     that after your second meeting with Celiku, and for my learned friends

15     it's page 53 of the October statement, that night Klecka attack happened.

16     Do you remember saying that?

17        A.   Yes.  I said it even a little bit earlier.

18        Q.   Are you aware that the Klecka attack in fact happened on the 25th

19     to 26th of August, 1998?  Are you aware of that?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Do you say that Klecka -- do you know when Klecka fell?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Do you know if it fell on the day that you left Klecka?  Could

24     that be possible or not?

25        A.   No.  I know that even that day it was attacked on the next day

Page 4282

 1     too, but when it fell is I don't know [as interpreted].

 2        Q.   And you had been in Berisa I think three or four days before your

 3     second meeting with Celiku.  Is that correct, or have I got it wrong?

 4        A.   It is possible.  I may have said two or three day, but I wasn't

 5     sure.  Much time has passed.  I have moved about a lot, so I can't be

 6     sure.

 7        Q.   Of course.  We understand we're asking to recollect events that

 8     happened many years ago, so please do take your time.

 9        A.   Okay.

10        Q.   You had been sent to Berisa by your unit commander; is that

11     right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And because of an order given to you by your unit commander, you

14     went to Berisa, didn't you?

15        A.   Yes.  He was with us, but I don't know whether he came up to

16     Berisa or whether he turned or came halfway.  I'm not sure.

17        Q.   Now, you say that the first time that you saw Celiku was on the

18     day or maybe the day after you arrived Berisa.  That's also correct,

19     isn't it?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And I think you say that what Celiku told you was simply if you

22     need help you can ask for help from Klecka; is that right?

23        A.   Can you ask the question again, please.

24        Q.   Of course.  You say that in your conversation with Celiku he said

25     that you were acting in place of a missing commander and also that if

Page 4283

 1     there was anything -- if you needed anything, you should contact Klecka

 2     and get some help.  Is that correct or not?

 3        A.   He didn't tell me that you are a commander.  I understand it

 4     differently.  He said you will be responsible for this unit for the time

 5     that the commander is away.  And that if you need something, that is, if

 6     you need some clothes or some equipment or so on, you can come to Klecke.

 7     Was a person from the village.  He had a car of Lada make and he was in a

 8     way as if designated.  To my recollection his name was Sadik he was

 9     wearing a moustache then.  He saw him several times.  I didn't mention

10     this before in my statement.  His duty was that if I needed something, he

11     should take me to Klecke.

12        Q.   When you arrived in Berisa, is it fair to say to that things were

13     somewhat chaotic because of the ongoing Serbian offensive that had

14     started?

15        A.   It is possible that it may have been like that.  I don't remember

16     well whether the meeting was that day or on the next day, but I remember

17     that in the evening we were on a hill.  It might have been that night or

18     the next night.  From there, we could see many villages, Arlat and other

19     villages which were burning.  We could see the flames from there and the

20     fields around from Arlat along the road to Malisevo.  Everything was

21     burning.

22        Q.   And aside from all of the burning you could see, it's right,

23     isn't it, that the KLA from your experience was feeling extremely

24     stretched and disorganised because of the summer offensive that had

25     started.  Is that fair or not?

Page 4284












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 4285

 1        A.   It may have been disorganised in some places.  In some places

 2     there were shortages of munitions, yes.

 3        Q.   In total you were in Berisha for about three or four days.  Would

 4     it be fair to say that in fact you were not very familiar with the area

 5     around Berisa, having been previously based in Jablanica.  Is my

 6     assessment fair?

 7        A.   I don't know whether it was three or four days.  I can't tell you

 8     for sure how long I stayed.  And you are right when you say that I was

 9     not very familiar with that region; I said this on Friday.  I knew all of

10     the villages near that area were called the Berisa villages.  I might

11     have been wrong, but that was what I believed then.

12        Q.   Yes.  And I think in your evidence on Friday you described

13     various zones of operation.  For example, the Dukagjini -- the Dukagjini

14     zone and other zones.  You had heard those names before, hadn't you?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And this area around Klecka, you described that as the Berisa

17     area; is that right?

18        A.   Yes, approximately so.

19        Q.   And this territory this zone that you say existed called

20     Berisa --

21             MR. SHIN:  Sorry, I think that's maybe misstating the evidence.

22     I don't believe the witness ever said that there was a zone called the

23     Berisa zone.

24             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, I'm referring to page 35 of LiveNote of

25     yesterday.  Line 1 and 2.

Page 4286

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Friday.

 2             MR. KHAN:  Friday, once again my mistake.  Berisa was the name of

 3     the whole territory.  But, Your Honour, I could clarify it.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  I understand stood that to be speaking of

 5     geographic area rather than a particular zone.  But to clarify it, I'm

 6     sure would be helpful for all of us.

 7             Thank you.

 8             MR. KHAN:

 9        Q.   Do you know, Witness, what area that zone came under?

10             MR. SHIN:  I'm really sorry to interrupt.  If perhaps there could

11     be some more clarity about what zone we're speaking about when we say

12     "that zone" and what area that zone came under.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  If you wouldn't mind I think it would be helpful

14     to make it a little more clear.

15             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, I'll do that.

16        Q.   You say, Witness, that you went to Berisa.  And you say that that

17     area was under Celiku.  Do you know, according to you, what zone that

18     area was in?

19        A.   I used this on Friday.  I spoke about zones or territories or --

20     I don't know how to put it.  And I said that I mentioned which leader was

21     responsible for that zone.  When we talk about Celiku's zone, I said that

22     it had -- it comprised some villages around Malisevo or each beyond

23     Malisevo.  In the Kline municipality I also said a that if we look at

24     Berisa only as a zone, meaning the place where I was based, this is what

25     I knew it to be.  Regarding Celiku's zone, I said it comprises a part in

Page 4287

 1     the -- in the vicinity of Malisevo, Pristina-Peja asphalt road on one

 2     side and on the other side I thought it comprised Orahovac municipality,

 3     Suva Reka municipality, because I knew who was operating where.  Maybe I

 4     was not very precise, and I'm not saying that everything I know now I

 5     told here what I knew then.

 6        Q.   Witness, no doubt it's my fault.  But if you remember on Friday

 7     you talked about Ramush Haradinaj being the zone commander of Dukagjini.

 8     You talk about Sylejman Salimi being in charge of Krasniqi and you talk

 9     about Remi being in charge of Llap.  Do you remember saying that on

10     Friday?

11             MR. SHIN:  I'm sorry to interrupt again, but I believe that is

12     misstating the evidence.  If my learned colleague is referring to page 40

13     of the transcript, while the Dukagjini zone is named, there is no

14     reference specifically to the names -- I believe the two names were

15     Pastrik possibly and Llap.  I'm sorry, it's not clear on the LiveNote

16     just now but I don't believe there is a reference to the names of those

17     zones there.

18             MR. KHAN:  Well, Your Honour, that wasn't mentioned on Friday and

19     that's exactly the thrust of my cross-examination.  So I would ask my

20     friend to be somewhat hesitant.  Of course he does say --

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Khan, you started off to try and find out

22     about the Berisa area and what zone.  I think we've lost that thought

23     somewhere along the road.  Do you want to get back to that and clear that

24     up at least.

25             MR. KHAN:

Page 4288

 1        Q.   What zone do you say Celiku was in charge of?

 2        A.   I think I said even earlier, from Klecke.  At least this is what

 3     I knew it to be.  The villages of Divlak, Novoselle, I thought that these

 4     villages were under Celiku's control.  Terpeze, Malisevo, even beyond

 5     Malisevo.  I repeated it several times.  I said it comprises a village of

 6     Orahovac, Suhareke municipalities, and on the side of the asphalt road to

 7     Pristina.  This is what I believed.  I think that my answer is very

 8     clear.

 9        Q.   Witness, do you know the name of that zone or not?

10        A.   No.  I knew it to be -- as Celiku's zone, not more than that.

11        Q.   And not knowing the name of the zone, in fact you didn't -- you

12     don't know who was the commander of Lapusnik, do you?

13        A.   No.  I never said anything regarding Lapusnik's commander. I'm

14     putting it to you again.  That this is what I knew then.  I repeated it

15     several times.  That was my knowledge.

16        Q.   And had you no idea not knowing the identity of that commander of

17     Lapusnik whether or not he was a superior or subordinate or an equal to

18     Celiku; isn't that right?

19        A.   I don't understand your question I'm afraid. Could you repeat it,

20     please.

21        Q.   You have no idea, do you, Witness, as to the identity of the

22     commander of Lapusnik; isn't that right?

23        A.   What I already -- I already said and knew I have told you, and I

24     am repeating that as far as I knew, Celiku was the commander of that

25     zone.  And the way I saw it was as Celiku's zone and not by any other

Page 4289

 1     name, not like Ramush zone, like Dukagjin zone.  So these were zones or

 2     places which were very small in fact.

 3        Q.   Yes.  And you don't know exactly how small Celiku's zone was, do

 4     you?

 5        A.   I didn't know how small or how big it was.  I knew as I already

 6     described it.

 7        Q.   And what you had picked up was largely based upon gossip and

 8     rumour and what your general impression was in those few days that you

 9     were in Berisa; isn't that right?

10        A.   Before going to Berisa, I had been in that area many times.  I

11     have heard from other soldiers, soldiers that I knew, some of them were

12     my friends.  A friend of mine was in Jablanica.  I don't know -- I don't

13     like to mention his name.  I knew his pseudonym.  He was in Celiku's

14     zone, and I have met that person in Terpeze.

15        Q.   And in fact you said on Friday that you got information about the

16     commanders and their zones because information was transmitted and

17     broadcast through television and radio stations.  Am I right that the

18     information you got from television was received after the war?

19        A.   Regarding this information, that is, Celiku was a commander, I

20     didn't learn that after the war.  It was given also during the war.  But

21     I -- to stress my point, I said that I heard other soldiers speaking of

22     as such.  But I also heard it through the radio stations, the television

23     and other sources.

24        Q.   And just for the sake of clarity, you said on Friday that Celiku

25     did not introduce himself but you became aware of his name later; is that

Page 4290

 1     right?

 2        A.   You mean the true name or the pseudonym?

 3        Q.   The real name of Celiku.

 4        A.   No, the real name of Celiku I learned later.

 5        Q.   That was after the war; is that right?

 6        A.   I don't know for sure.  It is possible that it was after the war.

 7     I can't tell you exactly when.  It was maybe after the war, because I was

 8     in gaol.

 9        Q.   Is it correct that you became aware of his name perhaps at the

10     same time that you became aware of Qerqiz's name once you heard the

11     indictment and heard the TV reports and after their arrest and being sent

12     over to The Hague.  Is that possible?

13        A.   This is possible regarding Qerqiz, meaning that I learned this

14     much later.  After the indictment made public or so.  But regarding

15     Celiku I knew when I was in gaol, because we talked when we were in gaol

16     with other friends.  His brother.  We were together with his brother.

17     And he came several times to my room and I went to his room several

18     times.

19        Q.   And the brother that was -- of Mr.  Limaj that was in prison with

20     you, that was Dimir Limaj; is that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You never heard of a prison or a place where people were being

23     detained in Lapusnik at the time that you were in Berisa; is that

24     correct?

25        A.   That's right.  I didn't hear about that prison then.

Page 4291

 1             MR. KHAN:  Witness, thank you very much.  I'm sorry that I have

 2     taken slightly longer than I intended but hopefully you won't be too much

 3     longer.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you Mr. Khan.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm happy to commence, but Mr. Shin is on his

 6     feet.

 7             MR. SHIN:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  Just if we could please have

 8     a redaction from line 18 through 21, I believe.  Yes.  Sorry, down to 24.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  The Chamber having great difficulty today because

10     our page numbering doesn't seem to accord with that of counsel.

11             MR. SHIN:  It's -- if we could go briefly in private session I

12     will indicate what lines that is a little more clearly.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

14 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

15             MR. SHIN:  Your Honour, that's -- I believe it is it page 48,

16     line 18 or maybe just before on the previous line when it's sentence

17     begins:  "But regarding Celiku I knew because we talked" -- from there

18     and then down to the last reference to his brother, which would take us

19     down to line 24, where the answer is "yes."

20             JUDGE PARKER:  What is the reference to Celiku going to do?

21             MR. SHIN:  In fact, Your Honour is entirely correct.  If we could

22     begin with "His brother" on line 19.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  And is that simply because they were together in a

24     place?

25             MR. SHIN:  Yes.

Page 4292

 1             Your Honour, I'm sorry.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Well perhaps out of an abundance of caution.

 3             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  We'll go to open session now and then Mr.

 5     Guy-Smith who's been waiting anxiously in the wings.

 6                           [Open session]

 7                           Cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith:

 8        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  How are you doing?  Are you all right?

 9        A.   I'm doing right -- very well, thank you.

10        Q.   A moment ago you were speaking about such things as ammunition

11     and it's fair to say that during the entire time that you were fighting

12     there was always a shortage of ammunition, wasn't there?

13        A.   I said there were shortages in some places, but not everywhere.

14        Q.   Where you were, there was a shortage there, wasn't there?

15        A.   I was in many places.  Which place to you mean exactly?

16        Q.   Well, starting at the beginning when you joined the KLA and you

17     were handed that old Russian sniper's rifle.  At that point in time.  You

18     didn't have a lot of ammunition with you, did you?

19        A.   When I first went there and got that weapon, I had munitions for

20     that.  They gave the munition along with the weapon to me.

21        Q.   How many rounds did you have?

22        A.   I didn't count the bullets but I had plenty of them.

23        Q.   And did there come a time that you ran out of rounds from the

24     firing that you did?

25        A.   That weapon was given to me when I was admitted to the KLA and I

Page 4293

 1     used it for a few days during the training.  Then I changed it with

 2     another friend with Leopardi -- after asking Leopard.  And then I got a

 3     Kalashnikov which was taken from Albanian.  And I had a bag full of

 4     munitions.

 5        Q.   When you needed further munitions, how did you get that?

 6        A.   Do you have any specific occasion in mind?

 7        Q.   Well, the first time you ran out of munitions when you were using

 8     your Kalashnikov.

 9        A.   I never ran out of munitions personally.  Because I went often to

10     Albania and therefore I had plenty of munitions for myself.

11        Q.   How many times did you go to Albania during the summer of 1998?

12        A.   I don't know exactly how many times.

13        Q.   When you say that you went often, would that be more than ten

14     times?

15        A.   No, less than ten times.  Seven or eight.  I can't give you an

16     exact figure.

17        Q.   And when you went to Albania, could you tell us of the first time

18     that you went to Albania, how long you were gone from Kosova?

19        A.   The first time I went, I think I have mentioned it already, we

20     travelled during the night -- in the evening and during the night.  And

21     it was sometime in the morning when we arrived in Prac village which was

22     known in Kosova as a place called Kulle e Sali Berishes the tower of Sali

23     Berishes.  It is possible that we rested for a while and in the evening

24     we returned in -- to Kosovo again.

25        Q.   And would it be fair to say that the other six or seven times

Page 4294

 1     that you went to Albania you spent approximately the same amount of time

 2     out of Kosovo, maybe a day or a night or two at the most.  Is that fair?

 3        A.   In one instance when we went the purpose was to get arms for a

 4     territory from Kline up to Istok whose population is mostly Catholics.

 5     We went there two times.  The first time I went with some friends.  We

 6     didn't find the weapons we were looking for so we didn't get many

 7     weapons.  We got only a few of them.  So together with some friends we

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10     arms to bring to Kosova.  These lasted maybe a week or two weeks, until

11     he came, until we came back.  And I know that when we came back, we fell

12     in an ambush at Rrasa e Zogut.  There was fighting.  One was killed, Kole

13     Mirdita was the name, from Drenas village up near Klina.  And

14     unfortunately, we got along very few weapons, only those we were carrying

15     on our shoulders and a friend was injured. The others we left there, at

16     the border, the other weapons.  That was maybe the longest time we spent

17     in Albania.

18        Q.   If I might, Your Honour I believe there is a need for some

19     redaction based upon witness's last answer.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, thank you.

21             MR. SHIN:  Your Honour, if it's of any assistance, if it could be

22     from line 12 through line 14, that sentence.  So after the word Tirana,

23     the sentence that appears after that.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

25             MR. SHIN:  Thank you.

Page 4295

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  That enough?  Are you sure?

 2             MR. SHIN:  If we could just have a moment, please, Your Honour.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             MR. SHIN:  I think that should be sufficient, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 7        Q.   You've indicated that you travelled in a fair number of different

 8     areas in Kosovo and my question is now directed to whether or not you can

 9     help us and identify for us whether or not there were any medical clinics

10     in the zones that you have discussed with us thus far.  And I take it you

11     have the zones in mind, but that would the Llap zone, the Pastrik zone

12     and Dukagjin.

13        A.   I don't know about Llap or about Pastrik.  I know about Dukagjin

14     plateau.  I know because it was there when I went to become a soldier.

15     There was an ambulance there to treat two or three injured.  There was

16     also one in Irzniq village near Gllogjan.  After that instance when my

17     friend was injured that I mentioned earlier, there was another village

18     near Gllogjan in Gramacel.  There was fighting there and two other people

19     were injured and we took them to Irzniq, to that hospital that is I knew

20     it.  And on the next day we got them back to the territory from where we

21     left.

22        Q.   I want to ask you a question in another area.  You had mentioned

23     that at one point you were in a prison which was the Dubrova [sic]

24     prison.  Correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4296

 1        Q.   While you were in that prison, I take it you saw a fair number of

 2     your fellow Albanians also at that prison.  Is that a fair statement?

 3        A.   Yes, mainly most of them were Albanians with few exceptions.

 4        Q.   As you sit here today, can you tell us about how many Albanian

 5     prisoners you saw at Dubrava?

 6        A.   Until the day of the bombing.  I knew very few of them because I

 7     was in the isolation.  After the air strikes we came out in the yard of

 8     the prison.  Then I saw many Albanians.  But I can't tell you exactly how

 9     many.  They -- they said then and even now that as much as we could count

10     with our friends there were about 1.000 persons detained there.

11        Q.   Are you aware of the fact that the Serbs massacred a fair number

12     of Albanians at the Dubrava prison.  Do you know about that?

13        A.   Yes.  They say that there are about 200 people killed altogether

14     by NATO and the Serbs.  But from what we would gather there were about 18

15     killed from NATO, and about 170 or more were killed by the Serbs.

16        Q.   And when you say 170 or more were killed by the Serbs, were those

17     people summarily executed, shot?

18        A.   On the first day of the air strike, only three persons were

19     killed.  And the Serbs used that.  They through bombs, killed detainees

20     with snipers from the surrounding walls.  I can cite two instances that I

21     witnessed myself.  Once was when they told us to go near to the wall

22     where there was a corner, two walls met there, there was a border as if

23     they wanted to count them, us.  The same person who called us as if to

24     count us because he said we will transfer to you another prison, he fired

25     at us with a hand mortar.  And then fired at with us an automatic gun.

Page 4297

 1     And they threw hand-grenades from both side of the walls at us.  There

 2     were many people killed and many injured.  Whoever could flee fled.  We

 3     tried to find refuge in the cellar or some trenches or canals.  After one

 4     or two days, I think it was on the 23rd, we entered a cellar.  In the

 5     evening, we cooked some pancakes.  We ate them because we were very

 6     hungry.  On the next morning when the day dawned, I saw them entering the

 7     place wearing masks.

 8        Q.   And when you say you saw "them" entering the place wearing masks

 9     are you referring to the Serb forces?

10        A.   Yes.  The Serb forces.  We were about 20 persons hidden in this

11     cellar.  And when we saw them entering the cell, they started to fire at

12     us.  That cellar had some big cauldrons or some tubes to -- for the hot

13     water that ran -- that was used in the prison.  It was very large cellar,

14     like this hall, and so we tried to hide behind those ventilators,

15     cauldrons or tubes.  They fired bombs at us -- they through bombs at us

16     from the windows.  After ten minute it is was full of smoke.  We couldn't

17     see anything.  Some of the tubes were broken.  Some of the pipes were

18     broken and the water start to the fall and they started to kill people.

19     My cousin was injured because of a bomb and he is blind now because of

20     that injury.  And he is not in -- in full possession of his mental

21     faculties. He cannot eat properly.  He eats very little.  Ten people

22     died.  They were lying on the floor.  Some of them I knew.

23        Q.   And the tragedy that you just described to us is a result of

24     Serbian activity; correct?

25        A.   Yes, of course.

Page 4298

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 3             Mr. Topolski.

 4             MR. TOPOLSKI:  May I make it clear that we on behalf of Isak

 5     Musliu do not cross-examine on detainees or any issues surrounding this

 6     witness's evidence regarding Jablanica, not upon the basis that we accept

 7     it but on the basis that we are in the a position to challenge it, our

 8     position, in essence, being precisely similar to that of Mr. Limaj.

 9             Can we go into private session, please.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

11 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

12                           Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski:

13        Q.   Sir, I represent Isak Musliu and I first want to ask you one or

14     two questions about your present position.

15             You told us on Friday that you are a serving officer with the KPS

16     and you protect government facilities; is that correct?

17        A.   No.  I am not -- I work in the Kosova police service, the

18     security division.  Which is responsible for government, state, police

19     facilities for the courts and so on.

20        Q.   Is that regarded in Kosova as an important possession?

21        A.   For that, you have to take a test, a police test.  There are some

22     people who examine the test to see whether you meet the criteria of

23     working in that service.

24        Q.   Is it regarded as a position that has some prestige in Kosova?

25        A.   Yes.  I don't know what to say in answer to your question.  I may

Page 4299












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 4300

 1     say it's regarded with some prestige because in fact there is a great

 2     unemployment in Kosova.

 3        Q.   You told us on Friday that you have held this position for about

 4     five months.  Does it follow from that, that you obtained this position

 5     around October of last year?

 6        A.   I went to school in Vushtrri in September.  For two weeks we

 7     underwent training.  If I'm not mistaken, we started training on the 6th

 8     of September, and I think it was on the 21st that we started to work, in

 9     September.

10        Q.   You had been released from four years plus of gaol on about the

11     27th of March of 2003, hadn't you?

12        A.   It was 2002.  I saw it on the monitor it was put 2003 but it is

13     wrong.

14        Q.   It was put on the monitor because that is what you said.  Let's

15     be clear about it: Were you released in March 2002 or March 2003?

16        A.   2002.

17        Q.   You made, didn't you, two statements to the ICTY to this

18     Tribunal, and they are respectively dated dates in October 200, the 21,

19     22, and the 24th and then another statement on the 8th of December of

20     2004.  Do you agree with those dates?

21        A.   Yes, yes.  October, December.  I don't remember the dates.

22        Q.   But then you had secured your job in the KPS, hadn't you?

23        A.   I was working...

24        Q.   Is there any connection between those two facts?

25        A.   What connection do you have in mind?

Page 4301

 1        Q.   Did the fact that you had given statements to the ICTY

 2     investigator in any way in any sense assist you with regard to the

 3     prestigious job that you now have in Kosova?

 4        A.   I think even earlier.  It's not that it is a highly prestigious

 5     job, but given the high unemployment rate in Kosova it's not a bad job.

 6     When I start to the give the statement I was working even before.

 7        Q.   Had you benefitted from any promotion in your job since giving

 8     the statements to the ICTY?

 9        A.   What benefits do you have in mind?

10        Q.   I think I said: Promotion.  Have you received any promotion,

11     improvement in your position?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Finally on this topic and then we should be able to go into open

14     session.

15             Did you approach the Office of the Prosecutor or did they

16     approach you to make statements?

17        A.   No, it was not I who approached them.  I think I have mentioned

18     that.  But I may repeat it.  They asked me to do that.  The first time I

19     met them we met in my home.  They came to me with a relative of mine and

20     they asked me whether I was willing to make a statement about what I saw

21     in the war, what I had done, about the time I spent in gaol, and so on,

22     and I made the statement that you have in front of you.

23        Q.   Did anyone tell you how it was they were coming to you for a

24     statement?

25        A.   No.  A relative of mine who came with them, they called him.  I

Page 4302

 1     mean they have talked with him.  It doesn't interest me what they

 2     discussed.  They came together and I made the statement.

 3        Q.   And finally on this topic, just yes or no, please.  Within your

 4     knowledge, is this relative of yours also someone who has made a

 5     statement to the OTP, yes or no?

 6        A.   No.  He's a person who -- through whom they came to me.  That was

 7     the only thing what he did.  You asked me how I met with them, and that's

 8     why I mentioned that relative of mine, because it was through him that I

 9     met them.

10        Q.   I want to move on, please, to deal with your dealings as you've

11     described them with the man you knew as Qerqiz.  That's what I'm going to

12     deal with now.  Do you understand?

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Open or...

14             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I'm sorry, that can be in open session.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

16             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I will repeat that in open session.  Thank you.

17                           [Open session]

18        Q.   Yes, I'm moving on to deal with your dealings with Qerqiz.  You

19     told us on Friday of being collected in a car in which there was Qerqizi,

20     which car took you and other man to Klecka.  You recall, I expect,

21     telling us all about that on Friday?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   I first of all want to see if I understood your evidence as to

24     when this event took place.  Just before you described that event to us,

25     you said at page 46 of the transcript for Friday at lines 4 and 5: "It

Page 4303

 1     was a time when the Serb forces attacked several points that were

 2     controlled by the KLA."

 3             And then you went on to describe going to Terpeze and then this

 4     collection by car that contained Qerqiz, the dark-red Golf.

 5             Can I suggest -- or let me ask you rather than suggest anything:

 6     What month of the year was it do you say when this car collected you to

 7     take you to Klecka?

 8        A.   [No interpretation]

 9             MR. SHIN:  I'm sorry, if the interpreters could please repeat the

10     answer because it did not appear on the LiveNote.

11             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Thank you, Mr. Shin.  I was about to make the same

12     request.  It broke up in my ear phones as well.

13        Q.   Could you repeat the month, please, Witness as to when it was

14     that this car collected you to take to you Klecka containing Qerqiz?

15        A.   It was the month of July.  It is the same time that I was in that

16     area, or that territory.

17        Q.   On the 25th and 26th of July, as part of the major Serb summer

18     offensive, the village of Lapusnik fell back into Serb hands.  Had that

19     happened before you were collected in this car?

20        A.   I think I have already mentioned that.  I am not sure whether it

21     was on the same day, one day after I went to Berisa.  The case of the

22     car, that is, when they came with the car, was maybe one or two days

23     after what I said earlier, after this instance.  I cannot be precise.

24        Q.   Well, I want you to try to be precise because my difficulty is,

25     you see, is my client has no recollection of this event whatsoever.  So I

Page 4304

 1     need you to help us when it is you say that alleged event occurred.

 2     Now, had Lapusnik fallen or hadn't it?

 3        A.   This must have been after the fall of the Lapusnik gorge.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you have a conversation in a car with Qerqizi,

 5     you say, and talked about ordinary matters after they told you that

 6     Celiku wanted to talk do you.  What ordinary matters did you talk about

 7     in this car journey to Klecka?

 8        A.   I don't know how to explain it to you briefly.  I think I said it

 9     on Friday.  Usually when people meet we greet each other.  We exchange

10     courtesy conversations, how are you, how are you getting on or some minor

11     joke.  I can't be precise what we said.  It was just a talk, normal

12     conversation between two people who meet.

13        Q.   You see you could be precise about this when you met with the OTP

14     on the 21st and 22nd of October 2004.  Because you were to tell them at

15     paragraph 52 of this statement that you made and signed as being truthful

16     that you got into the car and you were told not to interfere with local

17     affairs which was a reference to an incident involved two young women.

18     Now, did you have a talk about knowing in particular or a problem

19     regarding two young women?  Which is it?

20             MR. SHIN:  Sorry, Your Honour.  Could the statement be put in

21     front of the witness if he will be cross-examined on the contents

22     thereof.

23             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Well the answer is of course it can.  I wonder if

24     we could it in a shorthand way first to see if we can save time.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  I think you can.

Page 4305

 1             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I'm so sorry, Your Honour, did I interrupt?  I can

 2     wait for the answer.  My apologies.

 3        Q.   Witness, do you accept in a signed statement that you made to the

 4     OTP in 2004 you told them that you got into the car and were told not to

 5     interfere with local affairs?  Do you accept that you said that?  If you

 6     don't, then I can put the statement in front of you.

 7        A.   Sir, I didn't say that we talked about that in the car.  I said

 8     in the car we talked about normal things.  The talk you are referring to

 9     occurred after we entered the headquarters. Maybe it is a mistake of

10     translation or something else.

11        Q.   In that case I am going to have put the statement in front of

12     you.

13             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I wonder if he may see, please, the Albanian

14     version of the statement that he made dated the 21st, 22nd and 24th of

15     the October.

16        Q.   I'm assuming it follows the same numbering.  First of all by way

17     of identification, Witness, would you be good enough to look at the end

18     of that statement you have been given and see if your signature appears

19     on it above and then below a date of October 2004.  No, it's above it.

20     It's the interpreter's signature that's appears below.

21             Is your signature on this statement?

22        A.   What page?

23        Q.   Underneath paragraph 93.  Under neat the words "witness

24     acknowledgment."  Do you see your signature there?

25        A.   Yes.  There is no signature here but I know it's not a question

Page 4306

 1     of signature.  I want to hear what I -- or to see what you put to me

 2     earlier about that talk.

 3             MR. SHIN:  I'm sorry, if I may of assistance to Mr. Topolski.  It

 4     would be the English version that has the signature if that is helpful to

 5     you.

 6             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Mr. Shin should have stopped me earlier.  Thank

 7     you so much.

 8        Q.   Yes, I'm going to take you right to it, Witness.  Paragraph 52,

 9     please.  Begins with the words "After two or three days."  Do you have

10     that?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   "After two or three days, Qerqiz whose name I came to know later

13     to be Isak Musliu came to me with another soldier and told me Celiku had

14     called me.  I got into his car and went with him to Celiku."  Are you

15     following me?

16        A.   Yes, I am, certainly.

17        Q.   Good.  "Initially it was a formal type of conversation.  Then he

18     specifically told me not to interfere in local affairs and told me that I

19     was called for a specific job and when I will be needed I will be

20     informed.  We had these arguments.  I remember Shukri Buja was also

21     present in that room and there was some other soldiers I do not know."

22             So it seems a little confusing, so I need your help.  It seems to

23     be that you are saying here that in a car with Qerqizi you were not to

24     interfere with local affairs.  Do you remember saying that now?

25        A.   Yes, sir, I can repeat it now.  It is well written here, after

Page 4307

 1     two, three days it means together with another soldier, Qerqiz came and

 2     told me that Celiku wanted me.  I went in the car and went to Celiku.

 3     That is something else.  Then there is full stop.  Initially it was a

 4     formal type of conversation.  Then he specifically told me not to

 5     interfere in local affairs and told me that I was called for a specific

 6     job and when I will be needed I will be informed.  There is a full stop.

 7     It doesn't specify whether this talk took place.  That is why I am here I

 8     can explain to you.  Even though there are some mistakes of translation,

 9     and -- it's a problem one things are translated from one language into

10     another.  Because I talked with Qerqiz but with the other person who took

11     me with his car.  So that conversation was initially, as I said, a formal

12     one.  And then it ended look that.  You don't need to deal with that and

13     I didn't.

14        Q.   You did have a conversation in a car sharing it with Qerqiz, did

15     you?  You're absolutely sure about that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   In light of that answer, yes, I would now like you to see the

18     second version of your Albanian statement dated 8 December 2004, please,

19     and I'd like you to turn to paragraph 20 of it.

20             Again, with the kind help of Mr. Younis.  And now I put my thanks

21     to him on record for all to see and hear.

22             Now this is a second statement that you made which is really in

23     the form of questions and answers and I want you first of all to go to

24     paragraph 19 and the question the investigator is asking you is this is

25     it not: When did you first meet Qerqiz.  Can you describe how he looked

Page 4308

 1     at the time.

 2             Do you see that question, paragraph 19?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You never gave an answer to his description but we've leave that

 5     for a moment.  Let's look at your answer.  The first time I met him was

 6     when he came to me when I was situated on a hill above Terpeze and told

 7     me to follow him to Klecka to meet Commander Celiku.

 8             Witness, you were never in a car with Qerqizi, were you?

 9        A.   I have been in a car with Qerqizi.  The reason why I didn't

10     answer the question in paragraph 19 when you just put, how can you

11     describe it, you can find it in the other statement where I have said I

12     had described him approximately how he looked to me then and I may repeat

13     it to you and why he got the pseudonym, because of a movie that was being

14     played in Albanian television.  There was a character in that movie whose

15     name was Qerqiz Topoli.

16        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... because as a Serbian police

17     officer you should know better than to try and avoid answering question.

18     The problem here is that you say in second statement that you were told

19     to "follow him," not get in a car with him and a have a conversation.  So

20     your story has changed and I'm suggesting to you you were never in a car

21     with him, at all.

22             MR. SHIN:  Your Honour.  That is -- the counsel is arguing with

23     the witness.  If the witness -- the witness can be given an opportunity

24     to answer the question and explain.  Secondly, the --

25             JUDGE PARKER:  I think that had been done.  And where Mr.

Page 4309

 1     Topolski had reached was with reason, Mr. Shin.

 2             MR. SHIN:  I accept your ruling, Your Honour.

 3             The second point is that on paragraph 20 there is actually an

 4     answer to the description issue that appears there.  The witness does

 5     answer the question about the description and perhaps my learned

 6     colleague has simply neglected to look down to the bottom of paragraph

 7     20.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 9             MR. TOPOLSKI:

10        Q.   Could you answer my question now why it says that you followed

11     him in a car whereas you said in your first statement that you were in a

12     car with him and have told this Tribunal you were in a car with him?

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Topolski, it doesn't quite say that.  It said

14     he was told to follow him.  You're assuming that occurred, perhaps.

15             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Well, Your Honour --

16             JUDGE PARKER:  It's getting late in the date I know.

17             MR. TOPOLSKI:  It's getting late and if it's a bad point I'm not

18     going to labour it.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  It may be a perfectly good point but let's get to

20     it fairly and squarely.

21             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honour may have just spoiled it.

22        Q.   Were you in a car with Qerqiz, yes or no?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you do say that he had a beard at that time later on in

25     paragraph 20.  It was a very substantial beard he had, wasn't it, this

Page 4310

 1     man, Qerqiz, a big beard?

 2        A.   The beard, the big beard you say, might be one -- one span of a

 3     hand, it might be half a metre, I don't know.  It was a beard, a full

 4     beard.

 5        Q.   You described in -- I'm' moving away from that to my last topic

 6     very briefly.

 7             You described in your evidence earlier on today regarding your

 8     arrest by the Serbs in, I think, December of 1998 and your subsequent

 9     imprisonment.  It's right, isn't it, that you made a long statement to

10     the Serbs in December of 1998?

11        A.   No.  I didn't give them any long -- any statement, but I don't

12     know myself what -- what statement is about.  I never read any statement.

13     I only signed something they told me to sign and where it was signed as

14     they told me.

15        Q.   Well, again, I don't want to waste yours or anyone else's time

16     unnecessarily.  Disclosed to us is a five- or six-page statement

17     allegedly signed by you that contains a lot of information regarding

18     names and details of terrorists as they're described, I think.  Are you

19     saying that this statement was written for you and you simply signed it?

20        A.   I think I said here that even today I don't what this statement

21     comprised.  I was forced to sign it after I was arrested.  I know what

22     you mean.

23        Q.   I don't put it to you in those circumstances.  I accept of course

24     what you say about it.

25             And finally I just want to ask you this: On Friday you gave

Page 4311

 1     evidence regarding a further meeting that took place in a room in Klecka,

 2     do you remember this, at which meeting people such as a you say Gazetari

 3     and Kumanova were present at which there was a discussion regarding units

 4     and reports and so on.  Do you remember telling us at some length about

 5     this meeting on Friday?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   You would have heard Mr. Shin, the gentleman who was asking you

 8     question on Friday and today answer a question from me at the end of

 9     Friday's proceedings when he indicated to the Court that it was the view

10     of the Prosecution that Qerqiz was present at that meeting.  I just want

11     you to confirm, please, something that you have told us -- you've told

12     us, not Mr. Shin -- today.  It's your evidence, is it, that you are not

13     at all sure whether Qerqiz was at that meeting or not.  Is it that the

14     position?

15        A.   Sir, I cannot tell you whether he was or not inside that room

16     where we had the meeting with Celiku.  He might have been, he might not.

17     He might have enter that the room and he might have left that room.  I

18     didn't follow that, as far as I remember.

19        Q.   That meeting itself would have had to have happened, wouldn't it,

20     after the fall of Lapusnik on the 25th or 26th of July.  Do you agree?

21        A.   Yes, I think so too.

22        Q.   So perhaps we can leave things with you on a note of agreement,

23     Witness, if we can.  Would you agree with this: That you, as you sit here

24     now, cannot be at all sure whether or not Qerqiz was there.  Can we agree

25     that is the position between us?

Page 4312

 1        A.   What do you mean "there"?

 2        Q.   In the meeting, participating in the meeting.  That's what I

 3     mean.

 4        A.   I think I explained it earlier.  If you want, I can repeat it.

 5        Q.   Oh no.  I certainly don't want you to repeat yourself.  Thank

 6     you.  That's all I ask.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Topolski.

 8             Mr. Shin.

 9             MR. SHIN:  No questions from the Prosecution, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Shin I ventured that we would break at about

11     ten to but there seems little point if trying to spend five or six

12     minutes getting in a new witness and getting going.  So we will resume

13     tomorrow --

14             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  -- at 2.15 unless a need for special sitting to be

16     squeezed in and delay us yet again.

17             Sir, I'm pleased to be able to tell that you that is the

18     completion of your evidence.  You are now free to leave and return to

19     your home.  We thank you for your assistance in coming here and spending

20     the time that you had to spend here.

21             We will adjourn now and resume at 2.15 tomorrow.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.45 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of

24                           March, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.