Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4313

1 Tuesday, 15 March, 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. We're ready, I believe, for the

6 next witness, Mr. Whiting.

7 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour, we're ready for the next witness.

8 JUDGE PARKER: If the witness could be brought in.

9 MR. WHITING: And of course, this witness has protective

10 measures.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. While that is happening, at an earlier point

12 when Mr. Guy-Smith's client was unwell, he expressed his concern that

13 there might be reason for some further assessment of his health. The

14 Chamber has received through the registrar a report on the present

15 condition of Mr. Guy-Smith's client, which indicates both something of

16 the nature of the cause of the difficulty that did interrupt the

17 proceedings and gives a brief but pretty clear assessment of his present

18 health and indicates the nature of regular checking and assessment that

19 is occurring. And in view of those -- that report and what is said

20 there, the Chamber sees no present reason for it to take any steps in

21 respect of your client's health. Mr. Guy-Smith.

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I appreciate the Chamber's thoughts in that

23 regard. I continue to have a concern because at one point at a prior

24 time there was a question as to whether or not there may be some other

25 organic difficulty going on with Mr. Bala. However, in the absence of

Page 4314

1 the medical records, I'm not in a position to press the point any

2 further. And at this point I'll have a conversation with my client and

3 see how best to proceed in that regard. Because I am concerned that if

4 there are any other incidents they're dealt with, with full medical

5 understanding. But I appreciate the Chamber's position at this time.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith. And so that the record

7 is clear, we would have a copy of that report marked as an exhibit in the

8 trial when the computer system is functioning.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir. If you please read aloud the

11 affirmation on the card what is offered to you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you much.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.

17 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 WITNESS: Witness L-64

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examined by Mr. Whiting:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me clearly?

22 A. Yes, I hear you.

23 Q. Sir, I want to remind you that you have been granted protective

24 measures, which means that your image will not shown on the television

25 and your name will not be used in these proceedings and your voice will

Page 4315

1 also be distorted. Do you understand that?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Also, when we talk about matters that may identify you or

4 identify other names, we will go into private session and I will tell you

5 when we are going into private session and ask for the Court's permission

6 to do that. Do you understand that?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. I'll also going to ask you to sit forward a little bit and speak

9 into the microphone. You don't need to speak right up against the

10 microphone but...

11 I'm also going to ask you to take your time in answering my

12 questions and give the interpreters time to interpret my questions and

13 interpret your answers. Do you understand that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And if you don't understand any of my questions, just please tell

16 me and I will rephrase it. Do you understand?

17 A. Yes, I understand.

18 Q. Sir, I'm going to -- with the assistance of the usher show you a

19 piece of paper. I'm going to ask you to look at the paper and tell us if

20 that is your name on the paper.

21 A. Yes. Yes, I do see it.

22 MR. WHITING: And if that paper can be shown to the Defence

23 counsel and to the Judge, please.

24 JUDGE PARKER: While that is happening, I think the computer

25 system is now functioning. We'll get that exhibit number.

Page 4316

1 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number will be DB3.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. That is the medical report.

3 MR. WHITING: And if that sheet could be given a number and

4 placed under seal, please.


6 THE REGISTRAR: This sheet will be marked P165 and it is under

7 seal.


9 Q. Sir, I will refer to you today either simply as witness or by

10 your number which is L-64. Do you understand that?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session,

13 please.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4317











11 Page 4317 redacted. Private session.















Page 4318











11 Page 4318 redacted. Private session.















Page 4319

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


17 Q. Witness, drawing your attention to 1994, 1995, 1996, did you have

18 any trouble with the Serb authorities?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What happened?

21 A. The Serbs carried out frequent searches for arms in my home. I

22 think it was January 1994 when the police took me and my brother. They

23 detained us for two days at the police station. They maltreated us.

24 They broke three of my ribs, and then they sent me out in the street to

25 die, thinking that I would die, but then I recovered.

Page 4320

1 Q. Now, I want to remind you, Witness, not to say your brother's

2 name when we're in public session. Did something happen after --

3 afterwards? Were you at some point arrested?

4 A. Yes, in 1995, in May, during a routine search in my car the

5 police found a pistol, Magnum type and I was arrested again and the

6 criminal municipal court sentenced me to three months of prison for this

7 offence.

8 Q. Did you serve time in prison?

9 A. Yes. On November the 1st, 1996 I began my prison term and I was

10 released seven or eight days before -- or ten days before the new year.

11 Q. Witness, in 1998 and 1999 were you a member of the KLA?

12 A. Yes. As of May 1998 -- 1998, excuse me.

13 Q. During the months of May, June and July of 1998, where did you

14 serve in the KLA?

15 A. In Lapusnik.

16 Q. Sir, moving forward in time, on the 27th of May, 2003, were you

17 summonsed for an interview with the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY?

18 A. Yes. Yes, I was summonsed as a suspect of war crimes, 1998,

19 1999.

20 Q. And when you arrived for the interview, was your status as a

21 suspect or a witness addressed before the interview started?

22 A. Yes. I can't tell how that lasted. I think it was maybe one or

23 two hours.

24 Q. No, my question is: Before the interview began on the 27th of

25 May, 2003, was there a discussion about whether you were in fact

Page 4321

1 considered a suspect or a witness?

2 A. No. I said before the interview started, we had a talk which

3 lasted I can't tell you how long, during which it was explained that I

4 was no longer treated as a suspect but simply was there as a witness for

5 an interview.

6 Q. And was that the only matter that was discussed before the

7 recorded interview began?

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Objection, leading.

9 MR. MANSFIELD: I'm sorry to rise.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mansfield.

11 MR. MANSFIELD: The problem is that as far as I'm aware we don't

12 have any material on this. At least, I don't anyway. And this is

13 extremely important. If there is a record again of this part of the

14 proceedings that took place then, then we certainly should be provided

15 with it. May I ask for that.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.

17 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I don't believe there is any record.

18 This is a minor misunderstanding which occurred before the interview and

19 which was cleared up and is clear on the -- on the interview, that he is

20 -- the interviewed as a witness ant not a suspect. And I just simply

21 wanted to the clear this up before -- but it goes no further than that.

22 And there's no --

23 JUDGE PARKER: That's the extent of evidence of this nature that

24 you're leading.

25 MR. WHITING: That's correct.

Page 4322

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Well now, you will rephrase your

2 question and we will move on.

3 MR. WHITING: Yes, I didn't appreciate it would be a point of

4 controversy which is why I thought I could lead him through it. But I

5 will rephrase the question.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith tries to get us every now and then

7 to get us back onto straight and narrow rails. It's appreciated, Mr.

8 Guy-Smith. I hope your stamina lasted during the trial.

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm' doing my best. I'm doing my best.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

11 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Witness before the recorded interview with the Office of the

13 Prosecutor began on the 27th of May, 2003, you've told us that -- you

14 have already told us that were informed that you were being interviewed

15 as a witness and not a suspect. Was any other matter discussed before

16 the recorded interview began?

17 A. No, I don't think so.

18 Q. And at the beginning of the recorded interview, is it -- do you

19 recall whether it stated that you were being interviewed as a witness?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On the 17th and 18th of June, 2003 were you again interviewed by

22 the Office of the Prosecutor?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And were those interviews recorded?

25 A. Yes, they were recorded.

Page 4323

1 Q. In addition to those interviews on those dates, did you take a

2 trip to Lapusnik with the investigators?

3 A. Yes, once. I can't remember when, but yes, we did.

4 Q. On the 17th and 18th of June, did you also have discussions with

5 the investigators that were not recorded?

6 A. Yes, I think so.

7 Q. Do you know if the matters that were discussed that were not

8 recorded were later included in your ICTY statement which you did later?

9 A. Yes, I have seen them.

10 Q. In your interviews, your interview on the 27th of May 2003 and on

11 the 17th and 18th of June, 2003, did you talk about your time in Lapusnik

12 from May to July 1998?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4324

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you.

17 Q. Witness, I remind you that we are in public session so please

18 take care not to mention your name or anything that might identify you.

19 Do you understand that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Sir, at the time of the arrest that we just talked about in

22 private session, were you addicted to heroin?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Had you been addicted to heroin in the past?

25 A. Yes, part -- during part of 2002 for some months.

Page 4325

1 Q. When did your addiction to heroin stop?

2 A. It was a long time before the new year of 2002. I asked for the

3 medical assistance and I underwent therapy as a doctor advised me which

4 cost me a lot of money. But that happened before the new year.

5 Q. When is the last time that you used heroin?

6 A. Since that time before the new year, I don't remember very well.

7 It might have been once or twice, small quantities, but I went to the

8 doctor again and consulted him. So it was from before the new year up to

9 February, probably, of the next year.

10 Q. So is it your testimony that February of 2003 is the last time

11 you think you used heroin?

12 A. Either January or February. What I know is that I took two times

13 heroin from the moment that I gave it up that I stopped. That is, from

14 December 2002 up to January or February of 2002 -- it was once or twice.

15 Q. Witness, were you ever involved in any way in the sale of heroin?

16 A. No.

17 Q. When I ask you that I mean directly or indirectly.

18 A. Yes, now it's clear to me. Indirectly up until the time I was a

19 user, I might have been involved two or three times, but dealing with

20 limited quantities.

21 Q. When you say "indirectly" what was your role in these occasions

22 when you sold -- let me rephrase the question.

23 When you say indirectly what was your role in these sales of

24 heroin?

25 A. I knew the people who were dealing with heroin and in the

Page 4326












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4327

1 meantime I found out the persons who were interested to buy some

2 quantities and the person could have -- could afford to buy it. So I was

3 kind of intermediary.

4 Q. And would you get some money when you acted as an intermediary?

5 A. In one instance, yes. I got either 500 or 1,000 Deutschemarks.

6 It's not that I asked for it, the person gave me the money to me of his

7 own free will.

8 Q. Witness, how many times in all would you say that you acted in

9 the this capacity as an intermediary?

10 A. Two or three times, I think.

11 Q. And during the war in 1998/1999 did you engage in this activity,

12 act as an intermediary?

13 A. No, no.

14 Q. When after the war were you engaged in this activity?

15 A. I said during this period, 2002. I don't remember the time, the

16 date, but it was in 2002 until I was dependant on it for some time. I

17 rather not speak about that, but it's part of my life which I can't help

18 mentioning, even if I don't like to speak about it.

19 Q. I'll just ask you one more question about it -- sorry, I'm going

20 to ask you two more questions about it, and I understand that you don't

21 like to speak about it.

22 Can you tell us the last time that you were involved as an

23 intermediary in a sale of heroin?

24 A. I don't remember accurately. It was a question of a few grammes

25 of heroin. It might have been the new year -- near the new year of 2002,

Page 4328

1 but I'm not very sure about the time because at that time I used to run

2 away from everyone I knew or when I knew that the person possessed heroin

3 or used heroin. I did my best not to have any contacts with such

4 individuals.

5 Q. Was this the time that you were trying to end your own addiction

6 to heroin?

7 A. Yes, yes. That was a time when I was trying to run away from

8 everybody, even from my family and I lived alone in a village. I didn't

9 want to have any contacts with anyone.

10 Q. Witness, can you tell us, please, the largest amount of heroin

11 that you were involved in as an intermediary, in the sale as an

12 intermediary?

13 A. It's largest amount of heroin was about half a kilogramme

14 packaged in a box, but that was not the entire amount in that box. So I

15 can't tell you for sure whether it was more or less than half a

16 kilogramme and zero, that is. Maybe 200 or 300 grammes but the package

17 could get -- could hold up to half a kilogramme.

18 Q. And I know that you can't remember very accurately the last time

19 that you were involved in a transaction as an intermediary, but you

20 testified earlier that in -- it was in February of 2003 that you ended

21 your -- you ended your addiction to heroin. After that date were you

22 involved any heroin transactions as an intermediary?

23 A. I think I pointed out that I stopped my addiction in 2002. But I

24 also used once or twice again once in 2003. I'm not sure whether it was

25 January or February. It was a small amount that I used. And after that

Page 4329

1 I had nothing to do with this kind of affair, never.

2 Q. Witness, can you tell us today how you look back on this time

3 when you were involved with heroin?

4 A. I said that I had no idea about it. When I heard people saying

5 that you can be become dependant on it, I didn't believe it. And I

6 thought you can try it and you can just forget about it. But that was

7 not the case. And when it happened to me, then I realised how hard that

8 was and now as I said I don't like even to talk about it. Or even to

9 hear something about that, about drug addiction. I don't like to talk

10 about that part of my life. But when it's -- when it involves a certain

11 reality then I have to talk about it because some of my children are very

12 young and they don't know about that thing happening in my life, that's

13 true. I'm very ashamed of it, but this is how it was. I hate myself for

14 doing it.

15 Q. Witness, I'll move on.

16 After you were arrested in July of 2003, were you held in gaol?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. After three months in jail did the Office of the Prosecutor of

19 the ICTY and the international prosecutor in Kosovo to have an

20 application to the court to have you declared a cooperative witness under

21 the law in Kosovo?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. And was an order issued by international judge in Pristina

24 declaring you to be a cooperative witness?

25 A. Yes. I think I read and signed that order.

Page 4330

1 Q. Can you tell us today in your own words what you understand that

2 order to say?

3 A. I thought that I wouldn't be held responsible to -- before a

4 court for the things that I was accused of. This is how I understood it.

5 Q. And what did the order require you to do, if anything?

6 A. The order was that I become as a witness for -- in relation to

7 the two interviews made earlier.

8 Q. With the assistance of the usher I'm going to put the order in

9 front of you and draw your attention to certain parts.

10 MR. WHITING: It's -- in the bundle that has been provided to the

11 Court it's number 11.

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MR. WHITING: We have a copy here.

14 Q. Witness, do you have the English? There's an Albanian version

15 which follows the English. Could you look at the Albanian version,

16 please.

17 Do you have the Albanian version in front of you now?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If I could draw your attention to the first paragraph on the

20 first page. You see that you're declared a cooperative witness?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. And before I continue, just to be clear, this order has been read

23 to you in Albanian; is that right?

24 A. Yes. It was read it me in Albanian and I think I have signed it.

25 Q. In paragraph 2, do you see that it states as you testified that

Page 4331

1 the criminal proceedings pending against you will not continue. Do you

2 see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. If I could ask you to turn to paragraph 4. Do you see that the

5 order requires you to testify truthfully, to give the complete truth

6 without omission, concerning what you regarded while serving as a soldier

7 of the KLA in Lapusnik during the summer of 1998 and in particular with

8 respect to allegations in this case. Do you see that?

9 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Turning to paragraph 5. Do you see that in the event it is found

11 that you testified falsely or omitted any part of the truth that the

12 charges were pending against you could be reinstated? Do you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Finally, in paragraph 6, do you see that the order does not apply

15 to any subsequent acts committed after the time -- the time of this order

16 and does not apply to any offence that is punishable by more than ten

17 years of imprisonment? Do you see that in paragraph 6?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'd ask that this -- this order be

20 given an exhibit number and placed under seal. And I would also ask just

21 for a matter of completeness that the application which led to this order

22 which is attached at tab 10 also be exhibited and placed under seal.

23 And I would just for purposes of the record draw the Court's

24 attention to what I believe is a typographical error in the order. At

25 page 4, paragraph 1, under the "because" it's -- it makes reference to

Page 4332

1 the witness's prior interviews with the ICTY and it says -- and then

2 sentence says: "At that time he was arrested or in custody on this

3 indicted case." I believe it should be clear from the context and also

4 from the application that it should read: "He was not arrested or in

5 custody on this indicted case," since there is no dispute that he wasn't

6 arrested until after the interviews on the 13th of July, 2003.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Both the order and the application will be

8 received separately as exhibits.

9 THE REGISTRAR: The first order is P166; under seal. And the

10 second document is P167.

11 Is that under seal also?

12 MR. WHITING: Yes, that should be under seal.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Under seal.

14 JUDGE PARKER: The application, did you want the supporting

15 document as well?

16 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Well --

18 MR. WHITING: I think it could go in just as one number.

19 JUDGE PARKER: One number, very well. One is the application;

20 the other is a declaration of factual allegations. Both are dated 16th

21 of October. Together they will form the Exhibit P167.

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regard to the representations made by Mr.

23 Whiting concerning this official document, and specifically his

24 interpretation of paragraph 1, I have some concerns. This is a document

25 that was signed by international judge at the Pristina District Court.

Page 4333

1 Clearly, if there are any records of those hearings and what transpired

2 during those hearings and what the understandings were concerning the

3 status of this gentleman, that is a matter that was dealt with then. To

4 change the evidentiary statements made in such a document, I believe, is

5 inappropriate in the absence of somebody coming to testify with regard it

6 this issue or some declaration being submitted to the Court that

7 establishes the incorrectness of the assertions that are made in the

8 document.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Is it your position, Mr. Whiting, that

10 in the application or the supporting document the contrary is stated? Is

11 that what I understand from what you said, or were you relying simply on

12 the evidence that this witness has given a moment ago?

13 MR. WHITING: I believe -- if I could just have a moment, Your

14 Honour.

15 Yes, Your Honour, it's paragraph 24 of the second document, that

16 is, the factual declaration. And it says in reference to the witness

17 that he gave to the ICTY OTP his statement before he was arrested. In

18 addition, in -- in both documents it is set out the dates of his

19 interviews with the OTP and the date of his arrest. And so I think that

20 the -- the only logical reading of the sentence is to -- is to -- is that

21 there is a typographical error and I think --

22 JUDGE PARKER: I think, Mr. Whiting, rather than argument what

23 you have is an order of the court which recites one statement of fact.

24 You have the supporting materials upon which that order was made which

25 seem to recite the contrary, you have the evidence of this witness which

Page 4334

1 is to the contrary of what is recited in the order. There is therefore

2 potentially a factual issue for decision on the basis of those various

3 documents. I don't think your interpretation will help the resolution of

4 that. The materials are as they are presently before us and the evidence

5 as it is presently before us and if it becomes an issue, in the absence

6 of anything further being placed before us, there will be a factual issue

7 for resolution.

8 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. I appreciate that. And I

9 will -- I will consider further whether additional evidence could be

10 brought to bear on this particular issue.

11 May I continue?

12 Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Witness, after the order was issued that we have just been

14 discussing, were you released from prison?

15 A. Yes. The day that I was in -- I had the trial, after I had been

16 in prison, or maybe it was detention, I was released on that day, in the

17 evening.

18 Q. If you had been convicted of the charges that were against you,

19 how much jail time did you expect to receive?

20 A. I don't know the laws, but I had consultations with my lawyer and

21 I discussed with other people in jail and because of the arms dealing

22 that I was accused of, it could be nine months or -- six months or nine

23 months. This is what I thought, and I had served half of it because I

24 had been in there for three and a half months.

25 Q. After you were released from prison, were you and your family

Page 4335

1 relocated outside of Kosovo? Please obviously do not say where.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. After you were relocated outside of Kosovo, did you meet again

4 with the Office of the Prosecutor at the end of 2003 and the beginning of

5 2004 and do an a witness statement concerning your time in Lapusnik?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. And did you sign this statement on the 3rd of February, 2004?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, you told us before that you joined the KLA in 1998. Can you

10 tell us again what month you joined?

11 A. It was shortly before the 9th of May. I was with a unit. After

12 the 9th of May, I became a regular member.

13 Q. Let's first talk about the time before the 9th of May. What was

14 the unit that you were with?

15 A. It was called the Zjarri unit.

16 Q. Did that unit have a commander?

17 A. Yes, it did. Yes.

18 Q. And who was the commander?

19 A. The commander was Ymer Alushani.

20 Q. You mentioned this person earlier in your evidence. How long had

21 you known Ymer Alushani?

22 A. I knew him from 1989. I mean the year 1989.

23 Q. Did he have a pseudonym during the war?

24 A. Yes, he did. His pseudonym was Voglushi.

25 Q. What village was he from, if you know?

Page 4336

1 A. Yes. He was born in the Komorane village where he also lived.

2 In a neighbourhood in that village.

3 Q. Do you know which neighbourhood he lived in in Komorane?

4 A. Yes. It was a neighbourhood that was not far from Lapusnik or

5 the Lapusnik gorge.

6 Q. Can you tell us how you joined the Zjarri unit?

7 A. Before the 9th of May we were collecting some weapons, war -- we

8 could see that war had become inevitable and we were waiting only for it

9 to start. I can't remember the exact date, but it was at the same time

10 when Ymer had the licence, if I can say so, to create this unit. It was

11 maybe a couple of months before the 9th of May, one or two months before

12 that.

13 Q. Witness, do you know how he got the licence to create the unit?

14 A. I think - and that's what he said - he had contacts with some

15 members in Likovc they were friends of his. And after he went to Likovc,

16 he had the permission and the name of the unit. He had been also given

17 some equipment, a couple of guns, two hand-grenades and so on. This was

18 it.

19 Q. Did he tell you any of the names of the people who were in

20 Likovc?

21 A. I'm not very sure about the names. But numbers, he used numbers.

22 He said number 25, and I think that that's the person he had contact --

23 he contacted first. Also he mentioned number 10, I think he mentioned

24 Ilaz Kodra. But these were also mentioned regularly after that period,

25 so -- so -- we know the names now but at that time we did not know the

Page 4337

1 names.

2 Q. Number 10, did you later learn the name of number 10?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what did you learn it to be?

5 A. Rexhep Selimi.

6 Q. And you also mention number 25. Did you later learn the name of

7 number 25?

8 A. Yes, on the 9th of May. An incident had happened during the

9 fighting, and I had given to number 25 a sniper rifle of Yugoslav make a

10 couple of months ago. The fact was that I had lended it to him until I

11 would need it again. I learned there that a person had been killed and

12 this number 25 had rolled down -- had had an accident with a Jeep and the

13 sniper rifle was damaged and then is when I learned -- at that time that

14 I learned that his name was Ilaz Derguti.

15 Q. And when did you learn the name of number 10, Rexhep Selimi?

16 A. I can't remember exactly, but it was during the fighting -- it

17 was during the war, May, June, July, maybe even August. But I can't

18 remember exactly.

19 Q. Aside from number 10 and number 25, did Ymer Alushani talk about

20 any other names in connection with Likovc?

21 A. Yes, he mentioned others.

22 Q. Do you remember any of the others at this time?

23 A. You mean before the 9th of May?

24 Q. Yes. Did he -- do you remember him talking about any other

25 people in connection with Likovc before the 9th of May, either by name or

Page 4338

1 by pseudonym?

2 A. I don't believe so. I can say maybe Muje Krasniqi, Ilaz Kodra.

3 Ilaz was he was a friend of his. He was a close friend I think. He knew

4 him from before. But I don't think he mentioned others.

5 Q. Did Ymer Alushani tell you anything about Likovc, aside from the

6 people who were there?

7 A. No. Only when he went there he used to say, I'm going to the

8 headquarters, to Likovc.

9 Q. Did you yourself go to Likovc during this time, before the 9th of

10 May?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And you said that Ymer Alushani got some equipment, guns and

13 grenades from Likovc. Do you remember when that was?

14 A. He got those, I think maybe 20 days or at most, a month, before

15 the 9th of May, two automatic rifle, two or three automatic rifles and --

16 and two boxes of hand-grenades.

17 Q. Do you know how many people were in this unit?

18 A. There were 12 people.

19 Q. Before the 9th of May, 1998, what did you and the others do in

20 this unit?

21 A. Well, in addition to getting prepared, sometimes we also used to

22 escort somebody. On one occasion I escorted somebody to Orahovac. There

23 was nothing major that we did. Once we tried to escort an inspector but

24 it was impossible to get to Drenica, to Gllogovc. He was a Serbian --

25 well, he was an inspector of the Serbian service but he was Albanian.

Page 4339

1 Q. And what do you mean you tried to escort him?

2 A. Well, we followed him. I mean we followed him. We wanted to

3 kill him. And I know his name as well.

4 Q. Did anything happen? Did you try to kill him?

5 A. We tried but it was impossible. We were spotted by other forces.

6 There was a place Kroni i Mbretit close to the Koretica village so they

7 spotted us and we could not go through with it. We left.

8 Q. Before the 9th of May did you and the others in the unit do

9 anything else, engage in any other activities?

10 A. Yes, we did. Yes. The Serbian forces were very aggressive at

11 the time and at the smallest suspicion they opened fire immediately. And

12 I know that several times, even when Ymer was not there, we responded to

13 their fire, to the fire of the Serbian patrols. And on one occasion we

14 went to someone and told him not to hang around with Serbs or Serbian

15 secret service people. These kinds of things.

16 Q. That one occasion that you went and told that person not to hang

17 around with Serbs or Serbian secret service people, was that person an

18 Albanian?

19 A. Yes, Albanian.

20 Q. And did you suspect that person of hanging around with Serbs or

21 Serbian secret service people?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. And do you recall what you said exactly to that person?

24 A. That night we did not tell him anything. It was very late. We

25 went to his yard, front yard. All of us were in uniform. I was a guard

Page 4340












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Page 4341

1 at the entrance of the house, at the door. His family were concerned and

2 many people came out, so they did not manage to tell him anything.

3 They took two cars of the family, they told them that we need

4 these two cars and he could go the next day to get them in Likovc. We

5 thought that he would come to Likovc or would go to Likovc to get the

6 cars and then we would tell him what we had to tell him, but at the house

7 we did not tell him anything.

8 Q. Do you know if he went to Likovc?

9 A. The next day he started to go to Likovc, but somewhere in

10 Lapusnik he was stopped by someone who told him, It's better for you not

11 to go to get the cars. If you are involved with the Serbian -- the

12 Serbs, it's better for you not to go, so he did not go to Likovc. He did

13 not get there.

14 Q. And did you have any further conversations with this person?

15 A. No. After the war, he suspected that I was part -- I took part

16 in taking his cars. He accused me of that, and we did not speak to each

17 other. We haven't spoken to each other since.

18 Q. You made reference to having a uniform. Where did you get the

19 uniform?

20 A. I only had -- it's not a uniform. It was a kind of a coat,

21 overcoat, or a raincoat. But it was camouflage raincoat. But on that

22 occasion, there were not only members of the Zjarri unit that went there,

23 there were people from other units, and they had uniforms.

24 Q. And --

25 A. And they brought uniforms for us that night.

Page 4342

1 Q. Who brought uniforms for you?

2 A. The unit that came, some soldiers that came from Likovc, they had

3 uniforms on. But they had also some reserves. For example, Ymer had a

4 uniform himself. They had these raincoats. They were military raincoats

5 and they gave them to us.

6 Q. In this period before the 9th of May, did you have a weapon?

7 A. Yes, I always did.

8 Q. What kind of weapon was it?

9 A. We had weapons at home. My grandfather did. I did have my own

10 from 1991, 1992, they were automatic rifle, AK-47, Kalashnikovs. Two

11 sniper rifles. And revolvers or pistols.

12 Q. And did you have a particular speciality with regard to weapons?

13 A. I know weapons well. I know them now, I have known them -- I

14 knew them before, always known them.

15 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I could just briefly go into

16 private session.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4343

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public.

16 JUDGE PARKER: We'll adjourn now for the first break and resume

17 at five minutes past 4.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

21 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Witness, we are now back in public session, so I again remind to

23 you take care not to mention your name or the names of any people in your

24 family or anything that could identify you. And I want to start now with

25 the topic of the 9th of May, 1998. Did something happen on that date?

Page 4344

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What happened?

3 A. On the 9th of May, it was after midday, two people came to my

4 house, and they told me that Ymer wanted me to go to Lapusnik as fast as

5 I could to get weapons, to some friends, some comrades, and go there.

6 Q. Before those people came, did you know about anything happening

7 in Lapusnik?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So what did you do?

10 A. It was impossible for us at that moment to go by car through a

11 territory where there were Serb police patrols, and I told my friends to

12 leave later. So I told them to wait for us somewhere in the street. I

13 told them the meeting place and we left before night came and we met with

14 them.

15 Q. And where did you go?

16 A. We went to Komorane, to the house of Ymer.

17 Q. Was it night when you arrived at the house of Ymer?

18 A. Yes, yes. Night had started to fall.

19 Q. And what did you find when you arrived at Ymer's house?

20 A. There were other people there who had already come. The

21 population was upset. Ymer wasn't there. We waited until he came, and

22 he informed us of what had happened and he told to us leave that place

23 after midnight; that is, we were supposed to go to Lapusnik before

24 daylight.

25 Q. What did Ymer tell you had happened?

Page 4345

1 A. He told us that the Serb police and army had attacked two

2 villages in the vicinity of Lapusnik as well as in Lapusnik. They had

3 fired against civilians in their homes. And upon hearing the fire shots,

4 Ymer and come comrades had gone there and other units had come there in

5 the meantime. Other units from other places. And there was fight going

6 on until late in the afternoon.

7 Q. Did Ymer -- and this is Ymer Alushani, is it not?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did Ymer Alushani tell you anything about the other units that

10 had come?

11 A. Yes. He told us that units from Likovc had come to participate

12 in the fighting. And that also a unit from Klecka had gone to Lapusnik

13 to assist.

14 Q. Did he tell you anything about the unit from Klecka?

15 A. Yes. He told us that four or five people, I think, had come from

16 Klecke with Celiku.

17 Q. Did Ymer Alushani tell you anything about Celiku?

18 A. No. He only said that Celiku had assisted the day in the

19 fighting and that he had met with him. I think for the first time, yes,

20 it was the first time that he met Celiku. And he told us how things had

21 happened in Lapusnik.

22 Q. Did he tell you anything about this meeting that he had with

23 Celiku?

24 A. No. There had been three other persons in Lapusnik before Ymer

25 went there. And these soldiers from Klecke. And in the course of

Page 4346

1 fighting, after the fighting broke out, they had withdrawn from their

2 position. They had abandoned their position and they had suspicions

3 about these persons. They had detained them taken away their weapons.

4 Ymer said also that Celiku wanted to execute them, but that he had

5 intervened and that he had allowed them to go home.

6 Q. Okay. I just have to try get a little clearer on this story.

7 Who had withdrawn from their positions?

8 A. Three soldiers who had been there. And they had introduced

9 themselves as they were armed, and they had introduced themselves as

10 members of LPK. They had withdrawn from their positions in the course of

11 fighting, and they had stopped somewhere else. They wanted to leave the

12 place to abandon -- to leave the population at their mercy.

13 Q. And did Ymer tell you where these three soldiers were from?

14 A. Yes. The three of them were from Kishna Reka village. He told

15 us that -- about one whom we both knew.

16 Q. And who was that?

17 A. His name is Shaban Syla. He's from Kishna Reka village. Later I

18 found out about the two others, because their family came to look for --

19 for them.

20 Q. What did you found out about the two others?

21 A. I found out who they were. I don't know their names even now. I

22 know their last name, I know they are from Kishna Reka.

23 Q. And --

24 A. [No interpretation]

25 Q. What was the last thing you said?

Page 4347

1 A. They were two brothers. Two brothers, their last name was

2 Kastrati and they were from Kishna Reka.

3 Q. And you said that Ymer told you that these three people had

4 abandoned their positions and that other persons had detained them and

5 taken away their weapons. Who detained them and took away their weapons,

6 according to what Ymer told you?

7 A. I told them that the soldiers who had come from Klecke with

8 Celiku, they were the ones who stopped them, not Ymer. Ymer was a person

9 who intervened for them not to have any problems, and so they were

10 released, they were allowed to go home.

11 Q. And just to be clear, this is something that you did not see

12 yourself, but Ymer Alushani told you about this?

13 A. I didn't see it myself. I wasn't there.

14 MR. WHITING: Could we go into closed session, please, Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Closed.

17 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, private.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4348











11 Page 4348 redacted. Private session.















Page 4349

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.


19 Q. Witness, you testified that Ymer -- when you saw Ymer Alushani on

20 the night of 9th of May that you told you to go to Lapusnik the following

21 day. Did you do that?

22 A. Yes. That night. But we left after midnight. That is, the

23 night of the 9th of May, but we set out after midnight. It was at 2.00

24 in the morning, which means the 10th of May.

25 Q. And how did you go to Lapusnik? How did you get there?

Page 4350

1 A. We went on foot.

2 Q. Where did you go in Lapusnik?

3 A. We went in the morning and took a natural position called Guri,

4 or Big Guri, which is a stone, but there was a smaller one.

5 Q. Okay. The position that you took, Big Guri, where was that in

6 relation to the Peja-Pristina road?

7 A. It was on Peja-Pristina road on the right side. If you go from

8 Pristina to Peja it's found on the left side, maybe 300, 400 metres away

9 from the asphalt road.

10 Q. And -- and what did you do when you got there?

11 A. We waited until midday with the munitions and armaments we had.

12 We divided -- gave them to some persons who had come to fight and didn't

13 have weapons. It was at about midday, I think. In consultation with

14 Ymer, together with another person, I went to the other part of Guri,

15 where I could see from -- where I could see part of Komorane. We went

16 there to see if there were some movements of troop, if some troops were

17 coming from that direction.

18 MR. WHITING: Can we go into private session, please.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4351

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.

20 MR. WHITING: Thank you.

21 Q. Now, Witness, you told us that consultation with Ymer you went to

22 the other part of Guri from where you could see part of Komorane. What

23 did you do there?

24 A. Even though it was me, there was no greenery round. And this

25 happened almost during all of the month of May. It was very cold. So we

Page 4352

1 went to a place where we couldn't be seen from Komorane across checkpoint

2 and from there we observed the movements of the police forces.

3 Q. And in the days -- did you stay there for -- in the days

4 following the 10th of May?

5 A. Yes, yes. We stayed there until the 26th of July.

6 Q. And in the days immediately following the 10th of May, aside from

7 watching the movements of the police forces, did you do anything else?

8 A. Yes. It was rain -- it was raining, and we had to put up a

9 shelter, not to be seen by the Serb forces. We started to dig a trench.

10 We did dug [as interpreted] a trench and then a hole which we enlarged

11 later and transformed into a sort of bunker which was there until the end

12 of the war. Every day we worked to build the position.

13 Q. Did this position later have a number?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what was it?

16 A. Until the 29 or the 30th of May, it was position number two,

17 counting from the position -- from Guri. For a time, we called among

18 ourselves position number one, because that was the first one to be led

19 from Komorane. Later it became number two.

20 Q. I'm sorry, I think -- it was a little bit unclear. Was it first

21 known as position one or first known as position number two?

22 A. In the first days, since it was closer to Komorane, and the

23 police cross checkpoint we call it position number one in the first days

24 of May. But very soon this changed and the number started from Guri,

25 being number one, and this being number two.

Page 4353

1 Q. In those first days after the 10th of May, did you have any

2 further discussions with Ymer Alushani?

3 A. Yes, we talked every day.

4 Q. And what did you talk about in those first few days?

5 A. We talked mainly about weapons, what -- about what we were going

6 to do, how to become stronger, and these things. We discussed that we

7 had to stay in the trenches, in the positions during all the time and to

8 move only at night, not to be seen.

9 Q. Did you have any discussions during these first few days about

10 Celiku?

11 A. No. Until the 12th of May, no.

12 Q. Was there any fighting during these days from the 10th of May on?

13 Was there any further fighting with the Serb forces?

14 A. No. There wasn't, until the 29th of May. There was some

15 shelling, sporadic shelling, but there was no attack.

16 Q. A few days after the 9th of May was there a meeting in Lapusnik?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where was the meeting?

19 A. In in the evening or at night we were sleeping in some houses

20 close to the Guri position. In the evening two or three people had come,

21 and all the soldiers had gathered together. I went there later, together

22 two other comrades and Fehmi Lladrovci had come. Somebody said that

23 Celiku is here, but I can't remember and I did not know him at the time

24 whether he was there or not. Fehmi spoke about the war about half an

25 hour, how the war would be conducted and so on, and in the end he said

Page 4354












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Page 4355

1 that, We will all be fighting together, together with a Klecka unit, in

2 the Klecka unit. Celiku unit.

3 Q. Was Ymer Alushani there?

4 A. Yes, he was there. And we all wrote down our names in a

5 notebook. And we gave that notebook to Fehmi Lladrovci. He took it with

6 himself. We signed it as well. And he told us not to be concerned about

7 our families because we would be -- our families would have assistance

8 and so on.

9 Q. This notebook that you wrote your name in and you signed, what

10 did you think that meant?

11 A. That meant that -- how many people we were in that position, who

12 these people were. These were notes that were taken regularly after that

13 period. So the notebook contains the names, surnames, dates of birth,

14 and -- from -- the place from where we came from and also our signatures.

15 Q. And was this information taken in connection with the fact that

16 you had now been made part of the Celiku unit?

17 A. Yes. After a moment we became part of the Celiku unit.

18 Q. Were you given a number?

19 A. No, there were no numbers at the moment. What do you mean,

20 numbers? We were not given numbers.

21 Q. In connection with being -- becoming part of the Celiku unit, was

22 your unit given any particular number?

23 A. Not on that day, no. I have seen it somewhere that we were told

24 that it was Celiku 3, but it was not on that day. Maybe I've said it,

25 but I was not thinking right. But it was not on that day, I'm sure.

Page 4356

1 Q. Was it a later day that you became Celiku 3?

2 A. Yes. Maybe two or three days later. Not on that day. It was

3 soon after though.

4 Q. I'll ask you about that in a moment. But first could tell us --

5 you mentioned this person Fehmi Lladrovci. Did you know who that person

6 was?

7 A. No. That's where I got to know him, at that place. But he spoke

8 to us about his biography that he had been a fighter in Croatia. After

9 Croatia he had gone somewhere, to a western country, and then he had come

10 back to Kosovo together with his wife to fight. He was a tall man. We

11 were very happy to see him because he looked a very brave man, very

12 determined.

13 Q. Did anything else happen at this meeting that you have described?

14 A. No. After Fehmi Lladrovci left, together with some other people,

15 many questions were asked of Ymer. Ymer -- we asked Ymer, How is this

16 possible, what will become of our unit? Maybe Ymer had spoken to

17 somebody else and he did not give any explanations. He just said that,

18 We are here to fight, and it's not important who we fight with. The

19 important thing is to fight.

20 Q. And did he say anything else?

21 A. I can't remember that he did.

22 Q. Now, you have already referred to something that occurred a few

23 days later. Was there another meeting a few days later?

24 A. I can't remember exactly how many days, two or three after that,

25 but it was in the afternoon. We all gathered together on an open place.

Page 4357

1 Some people came from Klecka. That's where we got to know Celiku. He

2 spoke to us. We were lined up, and after he held his speech he said

3 that, From now on, you will have our help. We will get stronger and we

4 will fight, and from today the Lapusnik position will be called Celiku 3.

5 And the decision about the commander, not a commander because

6 there was no commander at that time. It was more of a person responsible

7 for the position. That would be Qerqizi and he said that, Anything you

8 have you must discuss with him, any need you might have you go to him.

9 Q. Did Celiku say anything about what his position was?

10 A. No. He only said that, I am responsible for this territory and

11 you -- up to Klecka, and anything you have you can do it through Qerqizi.

12 You tell Qerqizi.

13 Q. You said that Qerqiz would be the "person responsible for the

14 position." To be clear, what position is that?

15 A. The Lapusnik position. That is how it would be decided, that

16 Qerqizi would be responsible. And Qerqizi would be the one that would

17 communicate with Celiku for anything that was necessary.

18 Q. Was Qerqizi at this meeting?

19 A. Yes. Yes, he was.

20 Q. Did he say anything?

21 A. No, nothing. Not on that day.

22 Q. Did Celiku say how matters would be communicated from Qerqizi to

23 him, how the communication would occur?

24 A. I said that -- that anything would -- we would need, any

25 question, anything, we would address that to Qerqizi and then he would

Page 4358

1 convey those things to Celiku.

2 Q. And did he say anything about how Qerqizi would communicate with

3 Celiku, how he would actually have that communication?

4 A. No. No, he did not say anything.

5 Q. You said that before Celiku made this announcement that he made a

6 speech. Do you remember what he said in his speech?

7 A. I remember approximately. Things like we have to be disciplined;

8 we all know why we are here, our purpose. We have to defend or positions

9 to our death. The Serbian forces can only step on our bodies to get to

10 the civilian population. This is more or less what he said.

11 Q. Approximately how many soldiers were there for this meeting?

12 A. About 20 soldiers. Because soldiers used to come every day.

13 There were over 20 or about 20 soldiers. The number had increased. Many

14 others had come. People used to come every day.

15 Q. Did you know Celiku's real name at this time?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you learn his real name later?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When did you learn it, if you recall?

20 A. I think it was June. From a person who was with us. His

21 pseudonym was Vetura, and he said that he was his uncle. He was from

22 Banja, the Banja village and told us his name.

23 Q. And what name did he tell you?

24 A. Fatmir Limaj.

25 Q. This person Qerqiz, did you know his real name on that day?

Page 4359

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you learn his real name later?

3 A. Yes. Maybe in August or September. Much later, but not in

4 Lapusnik.

5 Q. What did you learn his real name to be?

6 A. His name was Isak. But I didn't know his surname until after the

7 war.

8 Q. What did you learn his surname to be after the war?

9 A. After the war, I learned that his name was Isak Musliu. I knew

10 where he was from. I had met him once in Ferizaj.

11 Q. Where did you learn him to be from?

12 A. A village close to Shtime.

13 Q. Do you know the name of the village?

14 A. There were many soldiers from these two villages. It could be

15 either Recak or Petrove, but I think it -- mostly that it is Recak.

16 Q. Do you remember when after the war you learned his real name?

17 A. It was immediately after the war, or soon after the war. In

18 1999. I can't remember exactly when.

19 Q. Now, you've testified that on -- at this meeting Celiku said that

20 Qerqiz would be the person responsible for the position at Lapusnik. Did

21 that in fact happen, was he then the person responsible for the position

22 at Lapusnik?

23 A. Yes. Yes, he was. Although there was -- there were some

24 polemics with Ymer about the change of name and command. But things were

25 clarified. It was the same, all the same to us, because our purpose was

Page 4360

1 to be there to fight.

2 Q. How long did he stay in that position as the person responsible

3 for the position at Lapusnik? Qerqiz, that is. Until what date?

4 A. Until it existed. Until the formation existed. Until the 26th of

5 July, 1998.

6 Q. And during that time was Celiku the person above him in command

7 or responsible -- in responsibility?

8 A. Yes. The number of the units and the volunteers increased daily.

9 And Celiku was responsible for Qerqiz and for us all.

10 Q. And during these months, from the time of this meeting in May,

11 through June and July, where was Celiku based?

12 A. The base was at Klecka. It is a village on the hills in Berisa.

13 It is on the top of the hills, and it is called Klecke. There's where

14 his base was.

15 Q. And during that time, during the rest of May, June and July, was

16 the position at Lapusnik known as Celiku 3?

17 A. Yes, all the time.

18 Q. Now, you said there were some polemics with Ymer Alushani. Can

19 you explain a little bit about that? What did you mean about that?

20 A. There was a kind of dissatisfaction expressed by some people

21 there. Because people knew Ymer, knew about his skills and many people

22 came there because of Ymer, because Ymer was skilled. He was able in war

23 affairs. Maybe not polemics, but there was some disagreement and people

24 went to Ymer.

25 Q. And what did Ymer say, if you know?

Page 4361

1 A. Well, he looked dissatisfied but he did not express that. He did

2 not say anything himself.

3 Q. And what position, if any, did Ymer have during this time period,

4 during the rest of May, June and July?

5 A. There were -- there was no special way to call him, except his

6 pseudonym. But he was always with Qerqizi, close to him.

7 Q. Did he respect Qerqiz as the person responsible for the position

8 at Lapusnik?

9 A. Yes. And he loved him very much.

10 Q. And you said there was some dissatisfaction expressed by people.

11 Did this result in anything? Did anything happen as a result of this

12 dissatisfaction?

13 A. No, nothing. This happened only early in time. And this was the

14 dissatisfaction of people who were with Ymer at the time. But nothing

15 happened. This was something we discussed with Ymer.

16 Q. Are you aware of anybody in -- any soldiers in Lapusnik who

17 refused to recognise Qerqiz as the person responsible for the position?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier that the next occasion when there was

20 fighting was on the 29th of May, 1998. Can you tell us what happened on

21 that date?

22 A. Yes. Briefly, early in the morning there were many Serb forces

23 at the Komorane crossroads, tanks, APCs, and before they even attacked

24 they started shelling our positions with grenade launchers from the Quka

25 e Komoranit, from the Komorane crossroads. There was a military base as

Page 4362

1 well there, but it was some metres further down from the crossroads. And

2 this happened during all that day, until the late hours in the afternoon.

3 There was shelling until 10.00 p.m., I think. From the distance.

4 Q. And did you yourself participate in the fighting?

5 A. Yes. And I think I was the first to shoot a round.

6 Q. And where were you when you were fighting?

7 A. I was at my position, where we had worked. It was point 2, and

8 we -- there was this field in front of us, and there was this infantry

9 unit coming towards us. It had created a kind of arrow shape, this unit.

10 This position was the only one that was grouped there in Lapusnik. When

11 I saw them, I asked Qerqizi, Where can I shoot? And he said, On the

12 first one. And I think I hit the first one. Very soon all the others

13 fell to the ground and rolled on the ground. I started shooting again.

14 I don't know if I hit anybody after that. The APCs were coming closer.

15 Q. And what happened as a result of this fight? Or let me put it a

16 different way: What was the result of the fighting on that day?

17 A. The result was that the Serb forces and the army could not

18 penetrate to our positions that we had at the time, but we were helped by

19 other positions because people were fighting from the opposite site of

20 the asphalt road as well. Many civilians, armed civilians came to help

21 us and they positioned themselves on the hills and were fighting.

22 Around midday, a unit came from Lladroc, a unit of 20 strong, 50

23 or 20 strong. They were commanded by a person. He was a military man.

24 He looked like one. He had been an officer in the Yugoslavia army, I

25 learned later. And I had to intervene to stop them because they wanted

Page 4363

1 to go out there in front of the Serb forces so I had to stop them. Some

2 of them went to the position at the guri. Three or four of them came to

3 the position where I was.

4 Q. Do you know the name of the person that commended this unit from

5 Lladroc?

6 A. Yes, he was from the village of Kishna Reka and his name was Ejet

7 [phoen] Kastrati. I learned his name on that day from his soldiers.

8 Later they contributed, he contributed opening trenches and positions in

9 Lapusnik.

10 Q. Was Celiku present for the fighting on this day, on the 29th of

11 May?

12 A. Three people came together with Celiku around 10.00 or 11.00. It

13 was after 9.00. 10.00 or 11.00. One of the others was Kumanova. There

14 was a sniper with Kumanova. He stayed at the position, position 2, for

15 some time. And enemy tank was stuck in the mud and could not get out.

16 Celiku took a mortar from one of the soldiers and asked, Who knows the

17 terrain on the other side? So he went with a person, the other person, I

18 believe he was a civilian. He tried to -- to fire at the tank, but it

19 was impossible because there was coverage so the tank was covered by fire

20 from the enemy. So he came back to our position without having fired the

21 tank -- on the tank.

22 Q. You made a reference to a person known as Kumanova. Did you know

23 on that day who that person was?

24 A. I had heard about him before, but it was the first time I saw

25 him. He was wounded in his legs. He had been wounded earlier, so he had

Page 4364

1 difficulty in walking.

2 Q. When you say he had been wounded earlier, you mean before the

3 29th of May?

4 A. Yes, before the 29th of May. They had met an ambush, a Serbian

5 police ambush, and -- I don't know when, but it was before the 29th of

6 May.

7 Q. On the 29th of May, did you know this person's real name?

8 A. Of Kumanova, you mean?

9 Q. Yes. Yes, of Kumanova.

10 A. No. No, I only knew him as Kumanova.

11 Q. Did you learn his real name later?

12 A. Yes. I learned that he was from Kumanova, which is in Macedonia,

13 that he had come from the west to fight in Kosova. He was very brave.

14 That is all.

15 Q. But what did you learn his real name to be later?

16 A. It was Ismet Jashari.

17 Q. And on the 29th of May, did you know -- had you heard anything

18 about what his position was?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Witness, I'm going to show you a book that -- that you provided

21 to the OTP with the assistance of the usher. And this is --

22 MR. WHITING: It's at tab 12. There is an Albanian -- there's a

23 copy of the Albanian, which is copy of the original book. And there is

24 an English translation.

25 Q. Witness, can you tell us what that book is?

Page 4365

1 A. This is a notebook. I have written down some notes on it.

2 During the war, I kept notes, not in this book normally. It was in a

3 smaller notebook or loose sheets of paper and after that I wrote them

4 down here. Many of the things that I wrote here I copied them down from

5 my notes after the war. I thought that it would be important to keep

6 such notes about the war. So these are part of my notes.

7 Q. And does the notebook cover different parts of the war, different

8 time periods of the war?

9 A. Yes. And different time periods, other periods, yes.

10 Q. Are the entries in the book written in order, in time order?

11 A. Approximately, yes. But some of the things have been written

12 towards the end of the book. Because I did not know where to put them,

13 these notes, and I wrote them -- that's why I wrote them towards the end

14 of the book. Some of my notes had been damaged during the war, so I

15 wrote them down where I could.

16 Q. Let me draw your attention to some specific parts of the book and

17 ask you if you could turn --

18 MR. WHITING: And maybe if the usher could assist the witness on

19 this. To page U003-6994, on the English translation that is page 8.

20 Q. Now, Witness, in this section --

21 Yes, I have been asked to give the ERN number again. In the

22 Albanian it's U003-6994 to page U003-7003.

23 Now, Witness, in that section there are some entries that are

24 dated 12 May, 1998; 14 May, 1998; 21 May, 1998 and 29 May of 1998. Do

25 you see that?

Page 4366

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us when you wrote those entries in that book?

3 A. These were notes that I took in another notebook but they --

4 these notes were taken at the time, in May. But maybe I copied them down

5 here in August or September. It's at that time that I started to write

6 on this notebook. Maybe these notes were not taken on the same day but

7 the next day, or sometimes in the evening. Sometimes I used to take

8 notes two or three days later, to write the notes down two or three days

9 later.

10 Q. And when you say that you think you may have written them in that

11 book in August or September, that's August or September of what year?

12 A. August, September 1998. As I said, I had taken down these notes

13 at that time in May, but I copied them to this notebook in August or

14 September.

15 Q. Now, if you would look at the entry for the 12th of May, 1998.

16 It's halfway down on 6994. Do you see that, the entry for the 12th of

17 May?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you just read that --

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Could you just read that, what is enter the there for the 12th of

22 May.

23 A. From the beginning?

24 Q. Yes, just what is on the 12th of May. It's about halfway down on

25 6994, 12 May, 1998.

Page 4367

1 A. "The day went by without any fighting. We were preparing

2 ourselves and getting stronger every day. In the evening Fehmi Lladrovci

3 and several of his comrades came and told us that we had to merge with

4 the Celiku staff. After several discussions Ymer and friends agreed.

5 And the unit was called number 3, Celiku 3."

6 Q. Now on the version, on what you're reading from it says "Celiku

7 3" and this is at the bottom of 6994.

8 A. Yes, yes. I see it. That is what is written down there. Of

9 course, when I made the description that day, it couldn't have been like

10 that, but later on I must have added Celiku 3 because at that time there

11 was no such name.

12 Q. And it's your testimony that you didn't learn -- you weren't

13 given the name Celiku 3 until the meeting with Celiku a few days later;

14 is that right?

15 A. Yes, exactly.

16 MR. WHITING: Your Honour I would just note than the translation

17 it just says Celiku. Celiku 3 does not appear but it appears on the

18 original document which is attached.

19 Q. Witness --

20 MR. TOPOLSKI: Forgive me for interrupting, I'm so sorry. It's

21 on the same point and on the same sentence. When the witness read it in

22 Albanian what we have in English at page 8, namely "I signed as well,"

23 certainly didn't appear in my headphones and on our screens as well. I

24 see Your Honours agreeing with me.

25 I wonder if my learned friend would ask the witness just to read

Page 4368












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4369

1 that last sentence again so we can check whether it should or should not

2 be "I signed as well."

3 MR. WHITING: Certainly. Thank you for that.

4 Q. Witness, could you just read on that entry for the 12th of May,

5 1998, could you just read the last sentence?

6 A. "I also signed and thus the Lapusnik post got the name Celiku 3."

7 But as I said, it was not on that day that it was called Celiku 3. It

8 was only called the Celiku unit, but after two or three days, it was

9 given the number 3 when Celiku came and held that speech in Lapusnik. It

10 could have been written on the day when the name -- when we got that

11 name, but it -- when I wrote these notes or when I -- it got the name,

12 Celiku 3, but it was not on the day that -- the 12th of May, I mean.

13 Q. Now other than that -- aside from that clarification about Celiku

14 3 is -- is what's written here accurate about what you remember occurring

15 that day?

16 A. Very accurate. But the number 3 is not accurate in relation it

17 that date.

18 Q. I understand. Now, if you could just look at the entry for the

19 14th of May, and I'm not going to ask you to read it out loud. But if

20 you could just read through the entry for the 14th of May to yourself.

21 A. Yes, I read it.

22 Q. Is that an accurate account of what you remember occurring on the

23 14th of May?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If you could turn now to the 21st of May, which is on page 6996

Page 4370

1 of the Albanian, page 9 of the English translation.

2 And if you could read the first two sentences.

3 A. "At around 10.00 in the morning, four friends from Klecka arrived

4 as reinforcements. They had one mortar, one 50 millimetre and one

5 machine-gun."

6 Q. Did that happen on the 21st of May, 1998?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The last sentence says -- as we have it translated it says Kaki

9 [phoen] and I had already finished working on the position, the bunker,

10 and we had isolated it with nylon because of the rain."

11 Do you see that sentence?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. First of all, who is the person Kaki that is referred to there?

14 A. [Albanian spoken] Kaki. I apologise. It is Kaki and his -- it's

15 the short form for Isak.

16 Q. And the position that is referred to, what position is that, the

17 position or bunker?

18 A. It is position 2.

19 Q. And had you finish the working on it on -- by the 21st of May?

20 A. Yes, it was covered because of the rain. It had been covered

21 also with branches, thick branches. But we also worked on it later and

22 reinforced it later. All the time, all the time that we were in

23 Lapusnik.

24 Q. Now, if you could turn to the next page, which is an entry for

25 the 29th of May, 1998. And it's on 6997 of the original.

Page 4371

1 Can you just take a moment - it's rather long so I'm not going to

2 read the whole thing, but if you could just take a moment and read

3 through it and tell us if it is an accurate account to your memory to

4 what occurred -- or some of the things that occurred on that date.

5 A. Would you like me to read it aloud?

6 Q. No. You can just read it to yourself for the moment.

7 A. Yes, I read it.

8 Q. Is it an accurate account of some of the things that happened on

9 the 29th of May?

10 A. Yes, very accurate.

11 Q. I want to ask you about a few specific things that are in that

12 entry.

13 At the beginning it says that "You were at the position you had

14 been working on that Voglushi and Qerqiz got there as well." And then it

15 says, "Qerqiz who was the person in charge ordered me to fire at the

16 first member of the infantry which had already approached us." Did that

17 happen?

18 A. Yes that is how it happened.

19 Q. And was Qerqiz the person in charge?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It later says -- and this on page ten at the top of the

22 translation. I can't say precisely where it is it on the Albanian

23 original -- but it says that you "only had one radio at the Staff and

24 could only communicate with the other positions by word of mouth." Is

25 that right, did you have one radio?

Page 4372

1 A. Yes, just one, a small one.

2 Q. Do you know what kind of radio it was?

3 A. It was a radio with a small capacity. These things you can buy

4 in Kosovo now everywhere are very cheap. It was not professional. I

5 think only five kilometres or ten kilometres of range.

6 Q. And where -- was the radio kept at any particular place in the

7 position of Lapusnik?

8 A. No. Qerqizi kept it.

9 Q. It then says that -- you're describing some events and it says

10 "At that moment I heard the voices of 'Qerqiz' and 'Voglushi' telling me

11 to withdraw." Did that happen?

12 A. Yes. That's how it happened.

13 Q. There is later a reference to Timi and Zenel. Do you know who

14 those people were?

15 A. Yes. They were soldiers who had come a few days ago from Klecka,

16 but now they were staying in Lapusnik.

17 Q. Did you know their true names at that time?

18 A. No. No, not then, not now. I know that Timi was killed. I

19 think that his name was Fatim and he was called Timi for short. Zenel is

20 Zenel, a name, I don't know.

21 Q. There is then a sentence which reads in our translation it says,

22 "The commander Fatmir Limaj ('Celiku') took the 500 millimetre mortar,"

23 or I believe it says the mortar 500, "and a local soldier and told him

24 how to approach the tank."

25 Do you see that sentence?

Page 4373

1 A. Yes, I see it.

2 Q. And did that happen?

3 A. Yes, that's what happened. Somebody had brought that day a

4 mortar. It was hand-held mortar. It was a 500 metre range and not five

5 millimetre as a calibre. And that's what they took in order to eliminate

6 or to annihilate that tank that was stuck in the mud.

7 Q. You've testified that you wrote these entries into that book from

8 notes and that you wrote -- wrote them in that book in August or

9 September of 1998. Do you remember when you wrote notes, how long after

10 the 29th of May you wrote notes about what happened on the 29th of May?

11 A. I am sure that the events of the 29th of May, I wrote down about

12 them on the 30th of May. There was time enough for me to write because

13 there was no fighting. Perhaps towards the evening of the 30th of May.

14 Q. And then did you use those notes when you wrote that entry in

15 that book?

16 A. From the other notebook the same things I wrote down in this

17 notebook. I tried to keep a chronological order here but I later

18 understood that it was impossible to write down all of the things

19 chronologically.

20 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'd ask that this exhibit be given a

21 number and placed under seal.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

23 THE REGISTRAR: P169, under seal.

24 MR. WHITING: We're going to put a copy of the Albanian and the

25 translation into evidence. The witness would like to keep the original

Page 4374

1 diary. Of course, the Defence can have full opportunity it review the

2 original.

3 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sure that that is done and no difficulties

4 then that it would be with everybody's concurrence that the exhibit

5 itself, the original itself, might be returned as long as everyone is

6 content with the copies.

7 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes, thank you. Given a opportunity to look at

8 the original, I'm sure it can be returned, yes.

9 JUDGE PARKER: I think that is a convenient time, Mr. Whiting.

10 MR. WHITING: I think is as well. Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE PARKER: We'll resume at 6.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 5.37 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 6.04 p.m.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.

15 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 If we could go into private session, please.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4375

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.

5 MR. WHITING: Thank you.

6 Q. Now, Witness, before the break you described how positions 1 and

7 2 were created. After the end of May 1998, were other fighting positions

8 created in Lapusnik?

9 A. After the battle of 20 [as interpreted] May, the number of

10 soldiers in Lapusnik increased. I said that they came from Lladroc unit

11 along with many volunteers. The number was approximately over 60.

12 Therefore, it was necessary for us to dig up other trenches, positions.

13 And three more were built. The number increased to five.

14 Q. Now in the translation it said the battle of the 20th of May. Is

15 that what you said?

16 A. It was the 29th of May. I said the battle of 29th of May. After

17 that battle, three new positions were built.

18 Q. Can you describe for us where in Lapusnik those three additional

19 positions were?

20 A. Beginning from Guri, which was position number one, then position

21 number two, in that direction, towards the mountains of Berisa, three new

22 positions were built.

23 Q. After the battle of the 29th of May, what were your duties in

24 Lapusnik?

25 A. I had the same duties. We dealt mainly with people who came in

Page 4376

1 that direction. There was a road that led to the position. We stopped

2 them, we asked them why were they there. Most of them came wishing to

3 join the KLA units. And that's it, more or less. This is what we did.

4 We were dealing with digging of trenches and this -- the villagers helped

5 us in digging these trenches up to position number four and five. They

6 were connected with each other, these positions. We built other

7 positions. In position number two, we dug two other positions so there

8 were three bunkers altogether in position number two in June and July.

9 Q. So did you stay in position number two during the months of June

10 and July?

11 A. Yes. Until the 26th of July.

12 Q. You said that people would come to the position number two along

13 the road and that most of them were wishing to join the KLA units. What

14 would you do when people came who wanted to join the KLA?

15 A. We took down their personal notes, information; that is, the

16 names the places where they came from and so on. When we saw that they

17 were not prepared to fight but they only wished to do, so we asked them

18 to go back. When we saw that some of were resolute in their

19 determination to fight we sent them to Voglushi, to Ymer, then to Qerqiz

20 and they decided whether to accept these people or not.

21 Q. Why were they first sent to Voglushi and then to Qerqiz?

22 A. I said that some people knew Voglushi and they asked to meet him,

23 specifically thinking that he would help -- he would make this easier for

24 them to join the KLA.

25 The number of people who wanted to join was great, and when they

Page 4377

1 came to position number two, they came through the mountain path. It was

2 was impossible for them to come through Komorane. They came through the

3 mountains -- paths, through mountain paths.

4 Q. I just need it clarify a little more what happened to these

5 people after you saw them at position 2 because it's not absolutely clear

6 and perhaps it's a translation problem, I'm not sure.

7 When somebody came and you saw that they were ready to join the

8 KLA, what would you do with that person? Who would you send that person

9 to?

10 A. All of them who came there were willing and ready to fight. But

11 some of them who insisted, more we sent them to the headquarters to

12 Qerqiz, I said. Whereas when it came to people who knew Voglushi

13 personally, they insisted on meeting him thinking that he would make it

14 easier for them to join.

15 Q. And do you know what would happen when these people were sent to

16 Qerqiz? What would Qerqiz do, if you know?

17 A. For some I know that they were admitted. Some others came again

18 or went back for shortages of weapons. But most of them joined the KLA.

19 Q. And did Qerqiz make the decision about whether they were

20 admitted?

21 A. I think so. He was the person who decided. When there were

22 weapons.

23 Q. What do you mean when there were weapons? What do you mean by

24 that?

25 A. I mean when there were reserves of weapons. Because in some

Page 4378

1 instances people came with their own arms, weapons. And so they were

2 admitted.

3 Q. You made a reference to a headquarters. Where was the

4 headquarters in Lapusnik?

5 A. The headquarters changed premises in Lapusnik. It was always a

6 small facility or place where Qerqiz and others stayed that we refer to

7 as headquarters. But they moved to several places.

8 Q. Do you remember where the first place was?

9 A. Yes. It was in the houses located close to Guri 1 -- to Guri

10 position, position number one. Then they moved to other places in the

11 village or in the neighbourhood.

12 MR. WHITING: I'm going to ask with the assistance of the usher

13 if you could be shown an aerial photograph of Lapusnik which we have

14 marked as image 8 from P001. And if had a could be placed on the ELMO,

15 please.

16 Q. Now, Witness, you've seen this image before, haven't you?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. I'm going to ask that you be given a pen. And could you first --

19 are you oriented on this image?

20 A. Yes, yes. On the basis of the asphalt road.

21 Q. Can you just point to the asphalt road for me.

22 A. This one here. Can I mark it here? From here it continues, in

23 this direction. It continues towards Peja.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, with the pen, could you first mark where

25 position number one was, if you're able to find it?

Page 4379

1 A. Approximately, going by the hill it must be here. Can I mark it

2 here?

3 Q. Yes. And if you could put a 1 there.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. And did that position -- was that the only place of that position

6 or did it extent in either direction down the hill?

7 A. It extended. New bunkers and trenches were dug in this part.

8 Approximately in here. In a lower place and in a higher place. In two

9 places.

10 Q. Can you draw with your pen the line of how far down that position

11 1 extended?

12 A. [Marks] Approximately like this. But there were some other

13 positions on a lower level.

14 Q. Were those other positions part position -- position number one?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Could you see the -- well, no. I'll move to a different

17 question.

18 Can you -- can you mark, please, if you're able to, where

19 position number two was?

20 A. I think I was mistaken a little while ago. Position number one

21 might have extended up to here, what I am drawing now.

22 MR. WHITING: If the record could just reflect that the witness

23 has drawn a line that goes from the number one towards the right of the

24 -- of the diagram.

25 Q. Now, could you find position number two?

Page 4380

1 A. Yes, yes. Position number two was here initially. Later there

2 was a new position back there. And an old position of the Yugoslavia

3 army that was situated here was used. So they became three.

4 Q. Could you put a number 2 there.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. And there were three different bunkers at position 2. Is that

7 your testimony?

8 A. Yes. And they were connected with the trench. The last one went

9 as far as here. It's a kind of valley there. The other part was also

10 connected to other positions.

11 Q. From position -- from any part of position number one was it

12 possible to see the crossroads at Komorane?

13 A. From Guri, no. From some close-by position, it was not possible.

14 But when they were extended until here, yes. Here you could see. You

15 could have a view of it, but not a full view. You couldn't see the

16 Komorane peak. Only the crossroads.

17 MR. WHITING: If the record could reflect that the witness

18 indicated by pointing to the portion of the line that is near the number

19 1 that is -- well let me try and rephrase that.

20 He pointed to the part of the line that is furthest from the

21 number 1. But the line that I'm referring to is the line that is next to

22 number one. I hope that is clear. Maybe -- well -- that is a good

23 suggestion, to use the grid.

24 The part of the line that he has pointed to is the part that is

25 halfway between 488500 and 489000.

Page 4381

1 Q. Now, are you able to see position -- where position number three

2 was on this map, or this image?

3 A. Position number three was very close to position number two, on

4 this part here. Here I think there was a bunker and it continued up to

5 here. Up to a certain field. I can't tell exactly when it was divided

6 from position number four, which was here.

7 Q. Okay. Can you put a 3 next to those two lines that you have

8 drawn.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. And where was position 4?

11 A. I'm not sure. It must be approximately here. That must have

12 been the position number four.

13 Q. Could you put a 4 next to that.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. And can you see position 5.

16 A. I see, but it was very close to the road that goes up to Berisa

17 mountains. And I'm not capable of placing it exactly. It was

18 approximately in this part here. And there was a guard which was

19 positioned in the road towards "lugu" or the valley. This was the

20 territory covered by position number five.

21 Q. Now can you find on this diagram where the headquarters was first

22 located. And maybe we could use a different colour pen now.

23 Are you able to find first where the headquarters was located?

24 A. Must have been here. It was a place meant to be an old store,

25 and here, in these houses here it was located.

Page 4382












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4383

1 Q. Could you just write HQ 1.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. How long was the headquarters there, if you recall?

4 A. Until the 29th of May. On the 29th of May, there was shelling at

5 around 20, 21st hours [as interpreted] and these places were shelled. So

6 they moved -- on the next day, they moved to another place.

7 Q. Are you able to find where they moved to?

8 A. Yes. There is this circle here, in this part. In the house --

9 in the houses of Vojvoda.

10 Q. Can you put HQ 2 there.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. How long was the headquarters there?

13 A. For some days. Not for a long time.

14 Q. And then where did the headquarters move to after that?

15 A. After that it moved to some houses, a compound of houses here.

16 There was a big room, a big oda, it was initially used. After that a

17 small house where a provisional clinic was installed.

18 Q. Could you put HQ 3 there.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Is that where the headquarters was up to the 26th of July?

21 A. Yes, up to the 26th of July.

22 Q. Did Qerqiz stay in these different headquarters?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The clinic that you refer to, was that next to or at the third

25 headquarters that you have marked?

Page 4384

1 A. It was in the same courtyard with the headquarters. They both

2 shared the same compound.

3 Q. What kind of clinic was it? What do you mean by "clinic"?

4 A. It was a small outpatient clinic there. Was a nurse and a

5 doctor. It was one room to admit patients. Some shelves with

6 medicaments. Not many but some that they could find.

7 Q. Are you able on this map to find where it was that you had the

8 meeting where -- that you described where Fatmir Limaj said -- or Celiku

9 said that Qerqiz would the person responsible for this position?

10 A. No. It was in the beginning. It must have been here, in this

11 place. It might be also somewhere in the vicinity of that place.

12 MR. WHITING: If the record could reflect that the witness

13 pointed to what he has marked as HQ 1 when he said it was in this place

14 or in the vicinity of this place.

15 A. I said here, in this part. HQ 1.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, on the other side of the road, of the

17 Peja-Pristina road, were there other units?

18 A. On the opposite side of the asphalt road, you mean?

19 Q. Yes, on the opposite side.

20 A. Yes, there were. There were two other units on the opposite

21 side.

22 Q. Do you know the names of those units?

23 A. Yes. Here was Pellumbi unit. On this part here. A little bit

24 further was Guri unit, Guri 3 unit.

25 Q. Could you put a P where the Pellumbi unit was and a G3 where the

Page 4385

1 Guri 3 unit was.

2 A. [Marks] This must have been the place where the Guri -- Pellumbi

3 unit was and here was the Guri unit.

4 Q. And below the -- in Lapusnik, below the Peja-Pristina road, was

5 Celiku 3 the only unit that was there?

6 A. You mean on the asphalt road?

7 Q. Yes, on the -- below the asphalt road in Lapusnik. Was Celiku 3

8 the only unit that was there?

9 A. No, no. No. Above the asphalt road was our unit which

10 patrolled. But there was a Pellumbi and this unit, the Pellumbi unit or

11 the Guri unit, I'm not sure, they blocked the road.

12 Q. So -- did the Pellumbi unit and the Guri unit control the road?

13 A. Yes, yes. Up to Arlat.

14 Q. And on your side of the Peja-Pristina road was it the Celiku 3

15 unit?

16 A. Yes. On this side here were our soldiers.

17 MR. WHITING: If the record could reflect that the witness

18 pointed to the southern part of the Peja-Pristina road.

19 Q. And just to be clear, were the five possessions that you have

20 identified, were they all within the Celiku 3 unit?

21 A. Yes, all of them.

22 Q. In -- was there another unit in Kishna Reka?

23 A. Yes, in July. Not earlier. In July, a Pellumbi unit came. You

24 couldn't see it on the map. There is a valley from position 5 down the

25 hill. At the end of the hill there are some -- a group of houses, very

Page 4386

1 close to each other. That was where the Pellumbi unit was located, with

2 some 10 or 12 soldiers.

3 Q. Was there -- during June and July of 1998, was there a place in

4 Lapusnik where soldiers would go to eat?

5 A. Yes, there was. In June and July there was the kitchen here in

6 this part where the circle is.

7 MR. WHITING: If the record could reflect that the witness has

8 pointed to the place where he marked HQ 2.

9 And if that map could be given -- this image could be given a

10 number, please.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: P170. Under seal?

13 MR. WHITING: No. It does not need to be under seal.

14 Q. Witness, in June and July of 1998 were there people who were in

15 charge of these five fighting positions?

16 A. Yes. Every position had someone who was in charge, who kept

17 notes or who was responsible for changing the shifts.

18 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4387

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.


Page 4388

1 Q. Other than the occasions that you've talked about, were there

2 other occasions when reports were made to Qerqiz?

3 A. When something happened, each one could report individually. But

4 not at a given time, you know.

5 Q. Can you tell the Court what kinds of things would be reported to

6 Qerqiz?

7 A. We reported on the situation in the position, what we had done in

8 the way of building them. The movements of the enemy forces. Because

9 usually they went by two, three armoured cars, APCs and tanks. And when

10 they got together they started the attack. So we had to keep notes of

11 the movements of a number of the enemy forces and tanks and so on.

12 Q. Did you ever receive orders from Qerqiz?

13 A. Yes. Regarding the duties we were assigned, yes. About what --

14 when we were assigned to do something, to build something, yes.

15 Q. Can you give any examples of orders?

16 A. At first we didn't keep notes, but later we started keeping notes

17 on some notebooks as I said earlier, about who was passing by, what was

18 happening. I don't remember any specific orders or the changing of the

19 guards, because first we didn't change -- we didn't take shifts, we

20 stayed in the positions all day long. After the 22nd of May we changed

21 in two shifts then at the end of June in three shifts and so on.

22 Q. You said that he would give you orders -- when you had to build

23 something. For example, what? Build what?

24 A. Some positions, what to do with that position. When we will to

25 cut wood, for example wood that belong to the civilian population we had

Page 4389

1 to agree what wood to cut or when we needed permission to go and visit

2 our families. These were the topics that we discussed. Or when we

3 lacked munitions.

4 Q. Can you describe how you would get permission to go and visit

5 your families?

6 A. We asked for permission orally and when it was possible, we were

7 allowed. That is, we were given a piece of paper and where it was

8 indicated the place we were going to the time that we were staying there

9 and so on. This was usually the case during these three months.

10 Q. And who would give you permission?

11 A. Qerqizi.

12 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I'm going to show you a

13 document. It's at tab 14.

14 MR. WHITING: And if that could be placed on the ELMO.

15 Q. Witness, you were looking at the Albanian version of this

16 document, and on the ELMO is the English version. Do you recognise that

17 document?

18 A. Yes, I do. This was how these travel permits were organised or

19 issued. This is how they were formulated. I think this is a little bit

20 longer than what I used to but this is more or less it.

21 Q. And you would use these travel permits during June and July of

22 1998?

23 A. Yes. It was not possible to leave the position without having

24 permission to leave it.

25 Q. And on this -- this example there is a -- it's signed by a

Page 4390

1 commander. In Lapusnik, would it be signed by Qerqiz?

2 A. Yes, Qerqizi.

3 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'd ask that this document be given a

4 number, please.

5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.


7 MR. WHITING: And it can be taken off the ELMO.

8 Q. Witness, you said that another thing -- another subject that

9 would be discussed was when you lacked munitions. What would you do if

10 you lacked munitions?

11 A. We asked the headquarters about it, and the headquarters conveyed

12 our message, and then the munition came, whenever it was possible for it

13 to come.

14 Q. When you say you asked the headquarters, what headquarters are

15 you talking about?

16 A. I was thinking about Qerqizi.

17 Q. And you said "the headquarters conveyed our message." What did

18 you mean by that?

19 A. He had as one of his own tasks to go to Klecka and discuss those

20 things. Our task was to go to him.

21 Q. And what happened when you asked Qerqiz for munitions? What --

22 after he conveyed the message, what would happen?

23 A. I said that he or it would come, the weapons or the munitions.

24 Of course what we asked for was much more than what they could provide.

25 The soldiers always asked for guns and munition.

Page 4391

1 Q. You testified that reports -- notes and reports were kept at the

2 positions. Can you tell the Court what kinds of things, if you can

3 recall, were recorded in those notes and reports?

4 A. It was a simple notebook where we wrote down the date; the shift,

5 which shift was it the first, the second, or the third; the movement of

6 the enemy forces; what had happen the during a certain shift; whose turn

7 it was to have -- to be on a shift.

8 Q. And what, if anything, was done with those reports or notes?

9 A. When there was nothing important happening, nothing was done with

10 it, until the notebook was filled and then it was handed over. Whenever

11 there was something important happening we had to hand it over

12 immediately. We notified --

13 Q. You -- who did you notify?

14 A. We had to notify Qerqizi and that's what we did. We notified him

15 or sometimes Ymer. Because Qerqizi was not alone. He was with two or

16 other three people [as interpreted]. So we could also notify these two

17 or three people, and they would take care to take the news or this

18 notification to Qerqizi.

19 Q. Can you identify who those two or three other people were?

20 A. During this time the people who stayed with Qerqizi was Ymeri,

21 Katimi, Zeneli. Mesuesi slept somewhere else. But he used to -- to send

22 written notes and documents.

23 Q. And what was the relationship between these people that you've

24 just identified and Qerqizi?

25 A. They were close. I don't know what their tasks were. It was

Page 4392

1 never mentioned what their tasks were. With the exception that Zeneli

2 for a period was responsible for point 3. With regard to Fatim, I don't

3 know of any special tasks. He stayed with Qerqizi, Ymer stayed with

4 Qerqizi and they slept at the state your name place where the

5 headquarters was.

6 Q. Did you consider these people Zenel, Fatim and Ymeri to be at the

7 same level as Qerqizi or at a different level?

8 A. No. I said it earlier, that Qerqizi was responsible, but they

9 were close. So they stayed together. Maybe they had free time to stay

10 together with each other, and they slept at the same place.

11 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm about to move into a different

12 topic. Perhaps we could break a few minutes early.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

14 Sir, we will adjourn now for the day and will continue your

15 evidence tomorrow at 2.15. If you would be kind enough to be back then.

16 If I could just mention for the future planning and for the

17 assistance of counsel with their travel moments that having regard to the

18 need for travel and the difficulty that the forthcoming Easter break, we

19 think it more practicable to finish sitting on Wednesday evening and not

20 resume sitting on the Thursday and to, after Easter, commence sitting

21 again on the Wednesday. At the moment, that is listed for Wednesday

22 morning after Easter. It may that be that will be move to Wednesday

23 afternoon depending on some other court-occupancy commitments. But I

24 think with that arrangement it will be more feasible for people to make

25 -- arrange the movements they need to make to get to their various homes

Page 4393

1 and so forth.

2 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honour, can I on behalf of the all of the

3 travellers in the room thank the Tribunal very much for that indication.

4 We're very grateful.

5 JUDGE PARKER: I'll think of you on the Thursday while I'm here

6 tending to other matters, Mr. Topolski.

7 MR. TOPOLSKI: I hope I never far from Your Honour's thoughts.

8 At any time.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Really. I'm glad to hear it. I need to be

10 replaced by Mr. Guy-Smith, you see.

11 We will adjourn now and resume at 2.15 tomorrow.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th of

14 March, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.