Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4489

1 Monday, 21 March 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.37 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Glad to see that the accused are

7 fit and well and here. And it's unfortunate that the transport delayed

8 our start.

9 Good afternoon, sir. If I could remind you of the affirmation

10 that you took at the beginning of your evidence which still applies.

11 Mr. Whiting.

12 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 WITNESS: Witness L-64 [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Mr. Whiting: [Continued]

16 Q. Witness, can you hear me and understand me all right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When we stopped on Wednesday last week the last thing that we

19 were talking about was Ajet Gashi. Do you remember that?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could I go into private session,

22 please.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

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Page 4494

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

14 MR. WHITING: Thank you.

15 Q. Witness, what happened after you learned that this Serb woman had

16 been detained in Fustica in July?

17 A. She didn't say that she was Serb. She pretended she was

18 handicapped. She tried to speak a little Albanian and she had a few

19 things in her baggage which only people have mental disabilities could

20 carry. I gave her a lift in my car from Fustica village to Lapusnik.

21 She introduced herself as a Muslim woman.

22 Q. Why was she stopped in Fustica?

23 A. She had passed from one stronghold of KLA to another.

24 Q. So was she suspected of something?

25 A. Yes. She was suspected of being a spy, of trying to find out

Page 4495

1 where the positions of KLA were.

2 Q. And why did you bring her to Lapusnik?

3 A. She was arrested when I gave her the lift. And I was going to

4 Lapusnik so I had to do the same journey. In order for her not to wait

5 to be taken by another car, I took her in my car. She was tied up in her

6 hands.

7 Q. When you arrived to Lapusnik, where did you bring her?

8 A. I brought her to the prison.

9 Q. Where -- where in the prison did you bring her, if you can

10 recall?

11 A. Once you enter the yard there is a door to a cellars and the

12 right side. But it was built. It was not a cellar, actually. It was a

13 living-room. In the corridor of that room I took her.

14 Q. Witness, with the assist of the usher I'm going to show you

15 U008-3669 the from Prosecution Exhibit P6. It's on page 4.

16 Witness, can you look at that photograph, please? Is that the

17 place where you brought this woman from Fustica?

18 A. Yes. Yes, to this place here.

19 MR. WHITING: If the record could reflect that the witness has

20 pointed to the door that is to the left of the light blue balustrade,

21 what appears to be the main door on the -- on the ground floor of the

22 building. That photograph can be taken away, thank you.

23 Q. Witness, what brought her after you brought her to that building?

24 A. They took away -- they searched her bag and saw that she didn't

25 carry any identity card. She had some threads. Nothing much to speak

Page 4496

1 of. It was impossible to talk with her. She pretended to be a fool and

2 then I left her there.

3 Q. Before you left her, did you question her?

4 A. Yes. But she didn't accept anything.

5 Q. And what was your purpose in questioning her?

6 A. I thought that she would admit something and that she wouldn't

7 pretend to be a disabled person. But she kept playing that role. It was

8 impossible to extract something from here.

9 Q. Witness, did you mistreat her in any way while questioning her?

10 A. No, no. Maybe I used a harsh tone or a loud voice, but I didn't

11 mistreat her.

12 Q. Did you question her once or more than once?

13 A. Only once.

14 Q. And that one time that you questioned her, did you strike her on

15 her body in any way?

16 A. No. No. No, I threatened her that if I'm going to ask her for

17 the second time, I will beat her. But I didn't then.

18 Q. You said that "they searched her." Who searched her?

19 A. I, I searched her. I searched her bag. And besides the guard,

20 there wasn't anybody around that day.

21 Q. Who was the guard?

22 A. Shala.

23 Q. And where did you see Shala there?

24 A. When I went to the entrance of the yard I saw him.

25 Q. Was he with you when you questioned this woman?

Page 4497

1 A. Yes. He was behind me.

2 Q. And did he do anything while you were questioning the woman?

3 A. No, he didn't do anything.

4 Q. How long did your questioning last, if you can remember?

5 A. About 20 minutes or so, half an hour. Until I, as I said,

6 searched her bag.

7 Q. Did something happen with this woman later?

8 A. Yes. On the next day, in the evening, I am not very sure whether

9 it was the next day or the day after, but it was in the evening at about

10 11.00. Qerqiz called me and told me to release the woman.

11 Q. How did he call you?

12 A. [Microphone not activated] met him. I said I met him. He came

13 and I met him.

14 Q. Where did you meet him?

15 A. I don't remember where. It was near the headquarters.

16 Q. In Lapusnik?

17 A. Yes, in Lapusnik. Yes.

18 Q. Did he tell you why she was to be released?

19 A. No. He just told me, Get rid of this stupid woman. Release her.

20 Q. What did you do?

21 A. I went and took her with a car and drove her up to the position

22 number 2, near that position. I tied her to an oak tree, to inform the

23 guards not to fire at us, until we approached. I explained to them who

24 we were. When I returned from the guard, she tried to be more coherent

25 in her speech. Probably she must have thought that I was going to kill

Page 4498

1 her because of what I had previously threatened her. She said that, I

2 work as a maid in a clinic of the SUP I think or I work at the SUP,

3 something like this. I'm not clear -- sure what she said. She also told

4 me her name. So I let her up -- I accompanied her up to the asphalt

5 road. I showed her the direction to Komorane. I told her to stick to

6 the asphalt road and she went. When she approached some 150 metres to

7 the Serb forces in Komorane I saw that she had some matches with her and

8 she started to light the matches. And I didn't see any more of her.

9 Q. When you say that you first went to inform the guards not to fire

10 at us, which guards are you speaking of?

11 A. I meant the guards that protected the positions at night.

12 Because we always kept guard at the positions, day in and day out.

13 Q. So just to be clear, you're talking about KLA soldiers?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please, Your

16 Honour.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

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14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you.

17 Q. Witness, was there a doctor in Lapusnik?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where did he work?

20 A. There was a small room, or two small rooms one after another in

21 the same yard where the staff was and they were used like a makeshift

22 clinic. There was a small shelf with medicaments and there was a nurse

23 as well.

24 Q. Do you recall the doctor's name?

25 A. We called him Zeqe Gashi. But his name could be longer. Zeqir.

Page 4507

1 It was Dr. Zeqe Gashi.

2 Q. Witness, to your knowledge, did he treat soldiers in Lapusnik?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And how about civilians. Do you know if he treated civilians?

5 A. Yes. But there were few civilians there.

6 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session,

7 please.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

14 MR. WHITING: Thank you.

15 Q. Witness, I'm going to move to another topic.

16 Did you ever see any Serbs at the prison?

17 A. Yes, two.

18 Q. Do you remember when you saw them?

19 A. I believe it was in the end of June, in the second half of June.

20 I don't know the date.

21 Q. Where did you see them?

22 A. In the prison courtyard.

23 Q. Can you describe them?

24 A. Yes. One of them was young, a young man, maybe less than 18

25 years old, 16, 17. The other was a tall man in his 40s. Maybe he was

Page 4510

1 45. I spoke with them. I spoke with the son. They said that they came

2 from Croatia.

3 Q. You said you spoke with the son. Were these two father and son?

4 A. With a young man. But I don't remember now. He said that it was

5 a son. The father, he was worried about the young man. It was a very

6 brief time that we met and they were completely free.

7 Q. What do you mean "they were completely free"?

8 A. They didn't look like in persons in prison. They didn't look

9 arrested or imprisoned. They could behave freely, they had cigarettes,

10 they could walk along the yard. They could talk to the soldiers, and

11 later on I heard that both of them were released.

12 Q. When you -- you said you saw them two times. Can you describe

13 more specifically where you saw them on each occasion?

14 A. I know that I've seen the young man in the yard. There is a well

15 there, a drinking water well. And he was sitting there on the grass.

16 And for the old man, I've seen him on the staircase. The staircase near

17 the terrace.

18 Q. Is that the staircase of the building that we have been talking

19 about today?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was anybody with these two men, either time that you saw them?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You said that they could speak with the guards. Did you see them

24 speaking with guards?

25 A. Yes. They even played with them.

Page 4511

1 Q. What did they play?

2 A. They could walk freely. They could play chess, but there was a

3 chess game there. And I knew they were free to move about. They told me

4 themselves, We are free.

5 Q. Witness, who -- who did they play chess with?

6 A. They could play chess with the guards. They could talk with the

7 guard, with the soldiers. They could talk with whoever entered the yard.

8 Q. Which guards did you see them -- if you can remember, which

9 guards did you see them playing chess with or talking to?

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: At this point I'm going to object because I don't

11 believe the witness has done anything other than speculate with regard to

12 what could be done in terms of playing any games, chess or otherwise. I

13 believe that Mr. Whiting is driving for an answer and is leading the

14 witness into an answer.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting, there has been a statement by the

16 witness. You can explore his foundation for that, but it should be his

17 foundation, not yours.


19 Q. How do you know they could play chess with the guards?

20 A. I said that they -- that they were free to move about in the

21 yard. The door to their room was open. Both of them didn't seem as if

22 they were prisoners or detainees.

23 Q. No, but please listen to me question. You said that they could

24 play chess with the guards. And my question is: How did you know that.

25 A. Where the older man was sitting there was a chess game leaning

Page 4512












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Page 4513

1 against the wall. Where he was sitting at the staircase I told you

2 before.

3 Q. Did you see him playing chess?

4 A. No. That day, Shala was not on guard when I saw them.

5 Q. Now, I believe you testified that you saw them talking to guards.

6 Do you remember which guards they talked to?

7 A. The guard who was on duty inside the prison, Murrizi and Shala.

8 But I'm not sure whether it was Shala. I know that Murrizi too was there

9 and that he too talked with them.

10 Q. Now, Witness, you testified that they -- these two men were

11 released. Do you know how they were released?

12 A. I know that after a while, some -- Celiku came from Klecke and

13 they took them somewhere and released them. But I don't remember the

14 date.

15 Q. And how do you know that, that Celiku came from Klecke and that

16 they took them somewhere and released them. How do you know that?

17 A. I saw the cars when they came. There were two jeeps. And I

18 heard people say that these two Serbs are going to be released and that

19 it was morning, whereas in the evening it was broadcast in the media that

20 they were released.

21 Q. Witness, you said you saw two cars. Did you see Celiku?

22 A. No. I saw it only in the evening on television.

23 Q. So did Celiku have anything to do, to your knowledge, with this

24 release?

25 A. Yes, certainly. Celiku is the one who must have released them.

Page 4514

1 Q. And why -- what is your basis for saying that. Why do you say

2 that, that he must have been the one who released them?

3 A. Because this is what everybody said, that Celiku released them

4 and because Celiku was the commander.

5 Q. But to be clear, you did not see -- your testimony is that you

6 did not see Celiku on the day that they were released?

7 A. No. I said before, I didn't. But when I saw the interview

8 broadcast in the evening that they were released, I saw the cars. But

9 Celiku, I didn't see.

10 Q. Witness, did you ever see a Mercedes vehicle at or near the

11 prison compound?

12 A. Yes. There was a Mercedes seen on the other side of the prison.

13 Where we took the oath. They said it belongs to a Serb. To a Serb

14 tradesman, but he too was released. The car was given back to him and he

15 was allowed to go. I don't when, but I know that he was released.

16 Q. And how did you learn this?

17 A. The car was there for several days. And I know that when they

18 allowed him to go, they gave him the car back and that he was -- he left

19 in the direction of Prizren.

20 Q. But me question, Witness, is How do you know this. Did you see

21 it, were you told, how do you know this?

22 A. No. I heard people say that. I didn't see him when he was

23 released. I saw the car, however, when it was staying there.

24 Q. And do you remember who told you this?

25 A. Everybody spoke about such things. It was not a secret.

Page 4515

1 Everybody knew that he was released.

2 Q. Witness, I'm going to move to a new topic.

3 Do you know man by the name of Hasan Hoxha or Hasan Dobreva?

4 A. Yes. Yes, I knew him.

5 MR. WHITING: With the assistance of the usher I'm going to ask

6 show you a photograph U003-8697, and for the record the name is blocked

7 out.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is Hasan Hoxha.


10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. WHITING: That can be taken away.

12 Q. Did you know him as Hasan Hoxha or Hasan Dobreva?

13 A. I knew him by both names. But he was more known as Hasan

14 Dobreva.

15 Q. Did you know him before you -- your time in Lapusnik?

16 A. Yes. From the high school, from 1973 I knew him.

17 Q. Did you see him at Lapusnik?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you remember when?

20 A. I don't remember the accurate time. But it was the end of July

21 or the beginning -- end of June, sorry, and beginning of July. Maybe end

22 of June is more accurate.

23 Q. Where did you see him?

24 A. The road that goes from the kitchen to the prison. In the place

25 when you turn right, there was a guard there. Often members of the

Page 4516

1 territorial units stayed on guard there. It was a small lawn where they

2 brought him. There I saw him.

3 Q. Witness, when you turn right coming out of the kitchen or turn

4 right coming out of the prison?

5 A. If you leave the kitchen, and take the road that goes to the

6 prison, you take a left, then go uphill. Berisa -- maybe about 200

7 metres the road turns to the left, to that -- at that corner there was a

8 lawn and this is where I saw him.

9 Q. And how was it that you saw him? What was happening?

10 A. They brought him there. They had arrested him somewhere.

11 [Microphone not activated] [Realtime transcript read in error: "I"]

12 didn't know that he was arrested or detained when they had brought him

13 there. In the meantime others came. Ymer came. He talked with him. He

14 told him something like, I have heard that nobody could throw you down

15 and before Hasan could reply it him he gave him a blow and he fell on the

16 ground.

17 Q. Witness, do you know who brought him to Lapusnik?

18 A. Shala's soldier from Sedlare.

19 Q. Which Shala are you talking about?

20 A. I'm talking about the soldiers of Sedlare, Shale village.

21 Q. And how did you know that. How did you know that the soldiers

22 from Sedlare/Shale brought him to Lapusnik?

23 A. I spoke with Hasan there. Afterwards, I learned how he came to

24 Sedlare.

25 Q. What did he tell you?

Page 4517

1 A. He told me that he had come to join the KLA or to assist the KLA.

2 That was his initial goal. After these -- we exchange as few words only

3 until the incident I described with Ymer occurred.

4 Q. Now, the translation that we got was that I, meaning you, didn't

5 know that he was arrested or detained when they brought him there. Was

6 it you or he didn't know that he was arrested?

7 A. Neither myself nor he knew that he arrested [as interpreted]. He

8 was smoking some Dunhill cigarettes. He gave us cigarettes. And I don't

9 believe that he knew that he was arrested.

10 Q. Aside from Ymer, do you remember any other soldiers that were

11 around him when you were there?

12 A. Zenel came along with Ymer. There were also others, members from

13 the territorial units. But I don't remember there were seven or eight

14 people there.

15 Q. Do you remember where on -- on Hasan's body Ymer struck him?

16 A. He struck him on the head, on the front part of the head. In the

17 face.

18 Q. Do you know why he Hasan was arrested?

19 A. Afterwards, I heard that he was arrested. I didn't know then.

20 But in August I heard how he was arrested, how he was brought there and

21 so on.

22 Q. Did you hear a reason why he was arrested?

23 A. He was taken on the allegation that he was a collaborator of

24 Serbia as a spy, but I don't know.

25 Q. And is that something that you heard in August?

Page 4518

1 A. I heard it after he was arrested.

2 Q. Do you remember how you heard that?

3 A. Whoever was arrested was done so on reasons of being a spy.

4 Everybody who was in that prison was accused of being a collaborator or a

5 spy.

6 Q. After you saw him on that day, did you see him again in Lapusnik?

7 A. No, no. I heard that he was badly beaten, but I didn't see him.

8 Q. How did you hear that he was badly beaten?

9 A. I don't know from who in particular, but I heard that from

10 soldiers. That he was badly beaten. I don't know whether he admitted

11 being a spy or not.

12 Q. Witness, did you hear what happened to him later?

13 A. I know that I asked somebody in July and that he told me that he

14 was done short work of, by means -- by that I understood that he was

15 killed.

16 Q. Did you later see some bodies near the village of Morina?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When was that?

19 A. It was in July.

20 Q. Was it before or after you had seen Hasan Hoxha?

21 A. It was 10 or 15 days after I met Hasan Hoxha.

22 Q. How many bodies did you see?

23 A. Three, in one place. Two in one place and three in another

24 place. But I didn't come out of my car to see who there were because

25 there was a strong wind. No, it was a strong smell, a stench. It was

Page 4519

1 very hot. But I talked with someone -- a shepherd who was taking care of

2 his cattle or sheep there.

3 Q. What did the shepherd say?

4 A. I asked him, Who are they? And he said -- I told him, Why aren't

5 you burying them because it smells so bad. Why don't you bury them. As

6 if joke -- as if joking he told me, You bring the bodies here and you

7 expect us to take care of them.

8 Q. Had you brought the bodies there?

9 A. No, not me. He meant -- he meant us.

10 Q. "Us" being what?

11 A. KLA.

12 Q. Witness, did you think there was any connection between these

13 bodies and Hasan Hoxha?

14 A. I didn't come out of the car to identify them because there was a

15 steep path, and my handbrake was not working. I wanted to go out and see

16 whether it was Hasan; I didn't. But I thought that probably one of them

17 must be Hasan Hoxha. That was my personal belief then. Nobody told me

18 anything, that it was him. With the exception of what I had heard, that

19 I mentioned earlier, that he was done short work of. That's why I

20 thought that maybe he was one of them.

21 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think that is a convenient time.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

23 We will adjourn now. We will resume at quarter past 4.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

Page 4520

1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

2 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Could we go into private session, please.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

5 [Private session]

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7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.

9 MR. WHITING: Thank you.

10 Q. Witness, do you know somebody by the same of Vesel from Godance?

11 A. I've heard about him, but I don't know him.

12 Q. Did you hear anything about him while you were at Lapusnik?

13 A. I heard that he had been arrested. I don't know where he was

14 taken to. I never saw him. But I know that people spoke of him. He was

15 a well-known person. He was seen on TV publicly when someone from

16 Belgrade would come to discuss with Rugova and he would go there in the

17 capacity of an Albanian representative. He was saying that he was

18 representing Albanians according to the votes, but to my opinion, these

19 votes were manipulated. I know -- I've heard that this person was going

20 out with some Serbs and Romas. He was in these negotiations or

21 discussions more than nine times in Pristina.

22 Q. Are these things that you have told us about this person the

23 reasons that he was arrested, if you know?

24 A. Of course. There couldn't be any other reason. Such people with

25 the help of the then Serb government, they would use the names of

Page 4524












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Page 4525

1 Albanians who had the right to vote. They will collect 5.000, 6.000

2 votes and then they will appoint someone to speak in the name of the

3 Albanians and bring decisions in their name.

4 Q. Do you know if he was in Lapusnik?

5 A. I said that I heard that he was arrested and that he was brought

6 to Lapusnik, but I never saw him. This is only speculation or words

7 amongst soldiers.

8 Q. Witness, did you ever speak with Zenel or Timi about the

9 prisoners?

10 A. Several times.

11 Q. And can you describe the conversations. What did you talk about?

12 A. No. Other soldiers would speak as well, how someone was taken in

13 and how he was interrogated and how he was maltreated. Nothing concrete

14 in name and last name.

15 Q. But specifically would Zenel and Timi talk about these things?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And specifically do you remember what they would say, what they

18 talked about?

19 A. No. For the moment I can't remember. There were several

20 discussions. I don't remember.

21 Q. Did either of them ever talk about karate?

22 A. Zenel said he was a karate, that he exercised this art and that

23 he did that in the French league. He spoke something like this, but

24 personally I didn't have the impression that that was the truth.

25 Q. Why did you not have the impression that that was the truth?

Page 4526

1 A. You could clearly see that Zenel could not handle a weapon. If

2 he was a well trained -- in the French league he would have learned more

3 about weapons. As for karate, I know that he knew that.

4 Q. Did you ever see either of those men with a mask?

5 A. I believe yes. Not Timi. But as for Zenel, I believe yes.

6 Q. Do you remember where you saw him with a mask?

7 A. I mentioned it before that on one occasion when Qerqiz, Zenel and

8 someone else came out from the prison, I said that two of them were

9 wearing masks. One of them was Zenel.

10 Q. Now, I'm going to move to a different topic.

11 During the time that you were in Lapusnik, in the end of May,

12 June, and July of 1998, did you go to any other villages?

13 A. I don't understand the question. I have had many journeys. In

14 reference to what?

15 Q. It's not in reference to anything specific; it's just a question

16 if you went to any other villages during the time that you were in

17 Lapusnik. Or did you stay in Lapusnik the entire time?

18 A. When there was fighting, I would go to Kroimire as assistance

19 with the unit. Specifically I went to Blinaje on one occasion, following

20 Qerqiz's order. And once with two other persons I went to Carralluke

21 village but not with the order of Qerqiz. I received the order from the

22 two persons who came with me. They said, We have an order, but didn't

23 specify who gave them the order.

24 Q. Did you ever go to Klecke?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4527

1 Q. Did you ever go to any other villages that you can remember?

2 A. For this moment I can't remember. I've been to Malisevo, Klecke.

3 Q. You said that you went to Kroimire assisting with the unit when

4 there was fighting. Do you remember when that was?

5 A. This happened in June. I don't know exactly when. Maybe in end

6 of June. But there was fighting in Carraleve gorge, in Zborce. It was

7 end of June or beginning of July, around this time. I don't remember

8 exactly, but five or six of us went.

9 Q. Do you remember how you knew that there was fighting in

10 Carraleve?

11 A. I don't know. As for the fighting up to Kroimire and when

12 Kroimire was in fighting, you could hear the firing even in Lapusnik

13 because they were not only shelling the KLA positions but also the

14 civilian population. They were shelling villages as well.

15 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4528

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

3 MR. WHITING: Thank you.

4 Q. Witness, do you know who -- was there a commander in Kroimire?

5 A. Yes, there was.

6 Q. Do you know who it was?

7 A. Yes. From the beginning it was Ramiz Qeriqi, Luani.

8 Q. Now you also said that you went to Blinaje. Was there a

9 commander in Blinaje?

10 A. Yes when Blinaje was taken and until the end the commander was

11 Shukri Buja.

12 Q. And when was Blinaje taken, if you know?

13 A. Blinaje was taken in June. I don't know the date.

14 Q. Do you know if there was a commander above Ramiz Qeriqi and

15 Shukri Buja?

16 A. Well, for that territory there wasn't another commander. It was

17 from Celiku downwards. Celiku was the commander while the others were

18 lower ranking commanders, Shukri and Ramiz.

19 Q. Did you know a soldier by the name of Avni Sinani?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you see him in Lapusnik?

22 A. Yes. He was there 15 or 20 days.

23 Q. Do you remember when?

24 A. I believe that he came in the beginning of June. He was admitted

25 in the ranks or sometime he kept the order during lineup because he was

Page 4529

1 an officer, a former JNA officer. And after that I know that he went it

2 Blinaje.

3 Q. When did he go to Blinaje?

4 A. I don't know the date, but for 10 or 15 days he was in Lapusnik.

5 Q. How do you know he went to Blinaje?

6 A. I saw him in Blinaje.

7 Q. When -- do you remember when you saw him in Blinaje?

8 A. I saw him in June.

9 Q. Do you remember when in June?

10 A. I'm not quite sure but after the 15th of June. Around 15th or

11 20th of June I saw him in Blinaje. It was in the end of June.

12 Q. Did you see him at all after that date?

13 A. Yes, for another time.

14 Q. Where?

15 A. I saw him in Blinaje. There was a fighting there on that day,

16 and I saw him for the second time on that day. There was an attack

17 launched by the Serb forces against the village.

18 Q. Do you remember when that was?

19 A. No, I don't know the date. I don't remember the date. However,

20 it was the first attack that the Serb forces launched on Blinaje.

21 Q. Other than the two occasions when you saw him in Blinaje, do you

22 know where he was after he left Lapusnik?

23 A. No, I don't know. I think he was in Blinaje. And where he left

24 after Blinaje, I don't know.

25 Q. Witness, with the assistance of the usher I'm going show you a

Page 4530

1 diagram.

2 MR. WHITING: It's at tab 15 and it's also going to be put on

3 Sanction with the assistance of -- if we could switch to Sanction,

4 please. And on the Sanction the signature on the bottom has been

5 redacted.

6 Q. Witness, do you recognise this?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What is it?

9 A. This is a question that you asked earlier. And I made that

10 drawing fast. It is an approximate drawing. You can see the Crnoljevo

11 road to Prizren and the Peja-Pristina road. In the middle there is

12 Klecka. And the other places that are marked fall in a territory that

13 was under Klecka's command.

14 Q. Now, at Klecka there is a Q inside the circle. What does that

15 refer to?

16 A. Yes. Q refers to Celiku.

17 Q. And the Pristina-Prizren road is at the top of the page; is that

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At Blinaje there is circle and it has SH and a dot and then B.

21 Can you tell us what that refers to?

22 A. Yes. Sh is the "sh" sound in Albanian and refers to Shukri Buja

23 who was the commander in Blinaje. In Kroimire the name of Luan is

24 circled.

25 Q. What is the name that is next to Luznica?

Page 4531

1 A. It is Kumanova. Commander Kumanova was in Luznica.

2 Q. And you have arrows from -- going towards Klecka from Blinaje,

3 Kroimire, Luznica, Javor, Lladrovc, Malisheve, Terpeze, Novoselle, and

4 Lapusnik. Just to be clear, what do those arrows pointing at Klecka

5 mean?

6 A. As I said, this is approximately the territory that was under

7 Klecke's command. Fustica, Lapusnik, Nekovce, Bajice, Lladrovc, Luznica,

8 Blinaje, Kroimire. These villages.

9 Q. Now at Lapusnik you have a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 with an arrows pointing

10 towards Qerqizi. Can you tell us what that means?

11 A. These are the positions in Lapusnik there. There Were five

12 positions in Lapusnik, with the exception of one position in Kishna Reka

13 which was not under Klecka's command. And another unit in Orlate was

14 also not under Klecka's command.

15 Q. On that point you have an arrow from Kishna Reka which goes --

16 which crosses the Peja-Pristina road and has "Plumov," [sic] and then an

17 arrow from Arlat that also crosses the road that says "Pellumbi." What

18 does that refer to?

19 A. These were the Pellumbi units. Not Plumbi, but Pellumbi units.

20 And they were on the opposite of Lapusnik.

21 Q. Above the word Qerqizi there is a Q3. Can you tell us what that

22 refers to?

23 A. Celiku 3. The unit in Lapusnik was called so.

24 Q. And finally at the bottom of the page there's a date and a

25 signature. Is that date the date that you drew it, you drew this

Page 4532

1 diagram?

2 A. Yes. That's the date.

3 Q. Is that your signature?

4 A. Yes. As I said, I didn't make this drawing for here but it was

5 for the moment because we repeated things many times. And that's why I

6 draw this and included this territory to explain how approximately it

7 was. And this is how approximately it was.

8 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could this diagram be given a number

9 and I would propose that rather than putting it under seal that the

10 signature simply be redacted.

11 JUDGE PARKER: The document will be received the signature to be

12 redacted.



15 Q. Witness, with the assistance of the usher, I'm going to show you

16 Prosecution Exhibit 135.

17 MR. WHITING: And if it could be placed on the ELMO, please.

18 Actually if you could place the back of the photograph on the

19 ELMO. It's the second page. You have the second page there. That's the

20 back. And if that could be placed on the ELMO. Thank you.

21 Q. Witness, do you recognise any of these names, either the names or

22 the pseudonyms?

23 A. Most of them, yes.

24 Q. Did you see any of these people in Lapusnik while you were there?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4533

1 Q. I'm going to ask that you be given a pen and if you could just

2 circle the names that you remember seeing in Lapusnik during those months

3 in the summer of 1998 that you were there.

4 A. [Indicates]

5 Q. Okay. You've put a mark -- you've circled number, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,

6 7, 8, 9, 13, 14, 15, 17, 19 and 20. You've put a mark next to number

7 five. What does that mean?

8 A. It was circled by mistake. Because your question was who was in

9 Lapusnik. This person was not in Lapusnik, and he joined later.

10 Q. And you put an arrow next to number 18. What does that mean?

11 A. He wasn't a soldier in Lapusnik. But in Nekovce, while number

12 20, this person is an inhabitant of Lapusnik but wasn't a soldier there.

13 Q. And how about number 21? You did not circle number 21. Do you

14 know anything about that person?

15 A. I don't remember him by name. I know him, but not very well. I

16 can't remember him according to his name.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if this could be given a number,

19 please.

20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.


22 MR. WHITING: And we're done with that, thank you.

23 Q. Witness, in July of 1998 did you have occasion to go to Orahovac?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you remember when it was?

Page 4534

1 A. I know that I wasn't there during the first day of fighting. On

2 the second day, I'm not sure it was 18 or 19, the day, of July. I think

3 that on the 19th of July I went.

4 Q. Who did you go with, if anybody?

5 A. We went by car. We were five persons. With another car there

6 were two or three other persons following us. With the car we went

7 there --

8 Q. I'm just going to interrupt you for a moment.

9 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session,

10 please.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4535

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.


6 Q. Witness, how did you get from Lapusnik to Orahovac?

7 A. We went by car up to Malisevo. From Malisevo to Dragobilje

8 village, again we went by car. In the evening we got together on a hill

9 above Orahovac.

10 Q. How did you get from Lapusnik to Malisevo?

11 A. I said we went by car. We had an Opel Record, a green one.

12 Q. No. I meant what read did you take.

13 A. We took the road from Arlat, from Arlat we took left from

14 Malisevo. From Malisevo we went to Orahovac. You drive through the

15 centre of the town, and then drive along the hill above the Dragobilje.

16 When night came, as I said, we got together on that hill above Orahovac

17 through the asphalt road.

18 Q. Did the KLA control the road that you took from Lapusnik to

19 Malisevo to Orahovac?

20 A. Yes. Up to the vicinity of Orahovac.

21 Q. Do you remember how long it took you to drive from Lapusnik up to

22 the vicinity of Orahovac?

23 A. If you drive without stopping anywhere it doesn't take long. But

24 we stopped at Dragobilje, at Malisevo for a while and then at Dragobilje

25 we stayed for a long while. For about -- this trip took us about three

Page 4536












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4537

1 hours, even more than three hours, I think.

2 Q. If you drive without stopping, how long does it take?

3 A. I believe it lasts 40 or 50 minutes, not more.

4 Q. I think you maybe partially answered this question, but why did

5 you go to Orahovac at this time?

6 A. There was fighting in Orahovac, major fightings those days. Serb

7 forces had attacked and even though our unit our units had been defeated

8 and had withdrawn and the Serb forces were committing massacres against

9 the civilian population. We heard rumours that about 500 civilians were

10 killed and most of them were killed. I can't tell you for sure whether

11 it was 500 or more, but around that figure. So we went there to withdraw

12 those people that could be withdrawn from Orahovac to take them to the

13 hills.

14 Q. How long did you say in Orahovac?

15 A. That day, that night and up to the next morning. Without -- when

16 the morning was not yet on, we left.

17 Q. Why did you leave?

18 A. We met some citizens who came there who had fled and they told us

19 that there are no more civilians, only Serb forces in Orahovac and they

20 proved us that they were the last to leave the place. One of them was

21 the a member of the KLA who had gone there to pull out his family and he

22 assured us there was nobody there. That's why we returned.

23 Q. When you returned where did you go?

24 A. Lapusnik.

25 Q. Did you go by yourself or with others back to Lapusnik?

Page 4538

1 A. Together with the others. Again we returned by car.

2 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session,

3 please.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.


22 Q. Witness, while you were away from Lapusnik, did you see any

23 prisoners that had been taken from Orahovac?

24 A. On the day that the Lapusnik gorge fell, in the morning, I don't

25 know whether it was 10.00 or 11.00. It was around that time. I think

Page 4539

1 that on that day, when we went to the road that leads to Novoselle I saw

2 a stopped or parked bus at --

3 Q. I want to draw your attention to the time when you were in

4 Malisevo. During the time that you went to Orahovac you went through

5 Malisevo. In Malisevo, did you see any prisoners that had been taken

6 from Orahovac?

7 A. Yes. We went close to the door and we saw some prisoners.

8 Q. Close to what door?

9 A. There was an unfinished building close by. The headquarters in

10 Malisevo. In the cellar of that building, I mean. Or better to say on

11 the ground floor, not in the cellar.

12 Q. And can you describe how it -- how it happened that you went

13 close to the door and saw prisoners there. How did that come to happen?

14 A. Someone told us that there are some prisoners. And we went to

15 see. Someone who was on guard there at the door. And two or three of

16 us, or four of us, I think, went there to look.

17 Q. What did you see?

18 A. There were some persons there.

19 Q. Were they men, were they women, were they both?

20 A. There were men and women. But mostly men.

21 Q. Could you tell if they were Serbs or Albanians?

22 A. There were rumours that they are Serbs. But in Orahovac, there

23 are also Albanians who speak Serbian. Most of the people there, in

24 Orahovac even though they are Albanians, they speak a language similar to

25 Serbian.

Page 4540

1 Q. I'm going to move to a new topic.

2 Do you remember anything about journalists, some journalists

3 being stopped at Lapusnik?

4 A. I remember some journalists who were stopped. Usually we used to

5 stop the journalists when they wanted to enter the territory controlled

6 by KLA. I remember several cases.

7 Q. Do you remember one case that involved Russian journalists?

8 A. Yes, I remember.

9 Q. What do you remember about it?

10 A. I know that they were stopped at a crossroads. They were asked

11 where they were coming from, who they were. I know that Qerqiz was not

12 there. I know that they were held for one or two hours waiting to

13 contact someone. There was also an interpreter with them, an Albanian

14 interpreter.

15 Q. You say that Qerqiz was not there. What do you mean he was not

16 there?

17 A. He was not there at this time. Two soldiers were missing. They

18 were -- they were -- they remained in Orahovac and every day Ymer and

19 Qerqiz went to look for them.

20 Q. Did this event with the Russian journalists occur before or after

21 you went to Orahovac yourself, if you remember?

22 A. I think it was after we went to Orahovac. Because neither Ymer

23 nor Qerqiz were in Orahovac during those days. They were not regularly

24 there.

25 Q. Were not regularly in Orahovac or not regularly in Lapusnik?

Page 4541

1 A. Lapusnik.

2 Q. And is it your testimony that on -- when the journalists, the

3 Russian journalists were stopped, Ymer and Qerqiz were not in Lapusnik at

4 that time?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, going back to what happened with the journalists, do you

7 remember -- do you know where they were stopped?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where were they stopped?

10 A. They were stopped at position number 1, in the asphalt road.

11 There was the guard there at the asphalt road where they stopped them.

12 There were also soldiers from the opposite side of the road were also on

13 guard and they were asked, as I said, where they were coming from and

14 where they were there. But the fact that they spoke Russian made them

15 suspects for the eyes of the KLA soldiers. Because they thought they

16 might be Serbs and they posed as Russians. In fact, this is what I think

17 even now, that they were Serbs disguised as Russians.

18 Q. Now, how do you know this? How do you know this happened?

19 A. I know because they asked for -- through radio use, they called

20 for Qerqiz. The radio was near where I was, and so they tried to contact

21 Qerqiz for two hours, but they couldn't find him.

22 Q. How many radios were in Lapusnik at this time?

23 A. One was sure. But there was another one. I'm not sure whether

24 it was in regular use, but one was in constant use. The second one might

25 be with Qerqiz or with the headquarters. But I believe there were two

Page 4542

1 small ones.

2 Q. And you said that the radio was near where you were. Where were

3 you?

4 A. I was in the position. The radio was with me. It was not near

5 but it was with me.

6 Q. Did you see the journalists yourself?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you describe that, please.

9 A. When I went there, the soldiers had stopped them and they were

10 keeping them outside of the asphalt road in a certain lawn that was

11 there. They tried hard to find out whether they were Serbs or not. And

12 until some others came and fetched them, they were kept there.

13 Q. And what happened. What did you see?

14 A. Since there was no one to ask, Pellumbi unit and the soldiers who

15 were in Orlate from the military police where there on duty, they came.

16 With a car and someone from Pellumbi unit came and they picked them up

17 and took them to their headquarters then.

18 Q. How many journalists did you see, if you can remember?

19 A. I think there were three, four together with the interpreter.

20 There might have been two. But 90 per cent, I think they were three.

21 Q. Do you remember anything about the interpreter?

22 A. No. The interpreter introduced himself as a Russian professor.

23 But regarding those journalists, I think they were released because I saw

24 three when they were coming back and I know that they were released on

25 the same day.

Page 4543

1 Q. When they were on -- on the road before the Pellumbi unit came,

2 did anything happen to them, the journalists or the interpreter?

3 A. Someone gave them some slaps but not many. But they beat the

4 professor more because they suspected that he might be a Serb mixed up

5 with them. Even though he had proper papers to prove the opposite.

6 Q. Did you see the interpreter beaten?

7 A. Yes, two or three times.

8 Q. Do you remember who beat him?

9 A. Soldiers who were there, on the road.

10 Q. Can you be more specific?

11 A. A long time has passed. I know that they have beaten him. The

12 soldiers who were there on the road. Both the soldiers from our unit and

13 from the other unit.

14 Q. You said that they were picked up by the Pellumbi unit and taken

15 to their headquarters. How do you know that?

16 A. I know because I saw the van when it came and picked all of them.

17 Q. But how do you know they went to the headquarters?

18 A. Because from there it was easy to communicate with Guri 3 unit.

19 And we could hear when the unit -- Pellumbi unit came and took them to

20 their own headquarter.

21 Q. Is that by radio you could hear that?

22 A. Yes, on the radio. But I also saw them with my own eyes.

23 Q. Now, you said that the journalists were later released and that

24 you -- you saw them coming back. Can you describe that, please?

25 A. It was in the afternoon. I don't remember what time. It might

Page 4544

1 be 4.00, I don't know. We saw three people walking along the asphalt

2 road towards Komorane. And we asked who were they, thinking that they

3 might be some Albanian civilians walking that way. And they were told

4 that they are those Russian journalists who were detained earlier and now

5 they are released. And they were walking back on foot along this asphalt

6 road.

7 Q. Where were you when you saw this?

8 A. I was in the position, and during all of the time they were

9 within view, I -- I looked at them through the binoculars. It was very

10 hot and I couldn't have full view of them but I saw them part of the way.

11 Q. And when you say you were in the position, is that position 2?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know what happened to the interpreter that was with them?

14 A. No. I know that he was detained, that's all.

15 Q. And how do you know that?

16 A. Because he did not return with them and there were rumours that

17 he was detained.

18 Q. Did you ever talk to Qerqiz about this incident?

19 A. Yes, when I met him, late that night. I believe it was that

20 night, late. It was not on the next day. I wanted to report to him what

21 happened, and he told me that, I know.

22 Q. Where did you see him?

23 A. Somewhere in the main road that leads to the headquarters in

24 Lapusnik. Near the position.

25 Q. Was he alone or was he with anybody?

Page 4545

1 A. He was with Ymer.

2 Q. What did you say and what did he say?

3 A. I told him that, I'd like to inform you about what happened today

4 and he told me that, We have been already informed so we know.

5 Q. You said that I believe it was that night, late and then you said

6 it was not on the next day. Can you be more clear about your memory of

7 when you told this to Qerqiz?

8 A. I'm more certain that it was that same night. But it might be

9 also on the next day. But not during the day, at night. But I believe

10 more that it was on the same night.

11 Q. Is it possible that it was any other night or -- or is it either

12 that night or the next night?

13 A. It was either that night or the next night. But not further than

14 that. But I am more certain, I think, that it was the first night.

15 Q. Witness, I'm going to show you what's been marked as Prosecution

16 Exhibit 129.

17 If you could -- it's hard to see much on the cover. If you could

18 just flip through this document, just look at the pages of the document.

19 A. Yes, I have seen that even before. It locks similar to the

20 notebook we used to keep notes in the positions in Lapusnik.

21 Q. Could you look at the -- in some -- on some of the pages there

22 are some pseudonyms.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. For example, Skifteri, Uka, Graniti, Minatori?

25 A. Yes, yes. I don't know who Skifteri was. But Cubi, Graniti,

Page 4546

1 these, yes, I know.

2 Q. How do you know those names?

3 A. Because they were soldiers at position number 1.

4 Q. How about Motori. Do you recognise that name?

5 A. Yes he was also in position 1. Uka too.

6 Q. Rambo?

7 A. Yes, yes Rambo too was there.

8 Q. I'm going to ask you, please, turn -- maybe the usher will assist

9 you.

10 MR. WHITING: To turn to U0023486 and it's -- on the English

11 translation for those who have it, it's page 33.

12 If we could switch to the Sanction.

13 Q. Witness, do you see there's an entry on that page for the 20th of

14 July, 1998 at 10.20 and it says: "A car arrives from Russian Central

15 Television. Translator Shaban Hoti." And then gives some information

16 about this person. And then -- and then it lists some names, "Galanov

17 Aleksander, Mamaev Viktor, Safiu Ulin," and then a licence plate.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you recognise any of that information in relation to the story

20 about the Russian journalists that you told us?

21 A. It is very similar, with the exception that I don't recall this

22 car.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. WHITING: That can be taken away, thank you.

25 Your Honour, I think that is a convenient time.

Page 4547

1 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will resume at ten minutes to 6.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

5 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Witness, from the time -- from the day that you returned from

7 Orahovac until the day you left Lapusnik, how often did you see Qerqiz?

8 A. Not very often.

9 Q. Can you be more specific.

10 A. Once, when we went to fighting in Fustica, and once or two other

11 times after that. So in total two or three times.

12 Q. How about before you went -- well, you've already told us that

13 you saw him when you told him about the Russian journalists. Did you see

14 him any other times before you went to the fighting in Fustica?

15 A. I don't recall. But I believe I have met him during the

16 evenings.

17 Q. Do you know -- when you say you met him during the evenings, is

18 that every evening or some of the evenings or one of the evenings?

19 A. In some of the evenings, not every evening. Two or three times

20 altogether, after what I mentioned with respect to the Russian

21 journalists.

22 Q. And are those two or three times before or after you went to

23 Fustica, if you can remember?

24 A. Before and after. The most important thing that I remember, it

25 was in the night of the 25th of July when I met him.

Page 4548












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4549

1 Q. Do you know -- when you did not see him in Lapusnik, do you know

2 where he was?

3 A. I knew that he was in Lapusnik. But I know that they went very

4 regularly, I would say, to look for those two soldiers who had remained

5 in Orahovac. They did so especially in the afternoons.

6 Q. And who would go look for those soldiers aside from Qerqiz?

7 A. One was Ymer, and maybe someone from the soldiers could go. One

8 or two others.

9 Q. And what's the longest amount of time do you think they went away

10 from Lapusnik to look for those soldiers?

11 A. In order to look and -- go there and look for someone, it would

12 take you three or four hours.

13 Q. But do you think that is the longest amount of time that they

14 would leave Lapusnik it look for the soldiers or would they at times

15 leave for longer periods of time, if you know?

16 A. I don't think they left for a longer period. Usually they were

17 away for an afternoon.

18 Q. Now, during this time period, this last week that you were in

19 Lapusnik, did you receive an order regarding the prisoners?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you describe what happened?

22 A. I think this happened during the first day of the fighting in

23 Orahovac. That day there was shelling also in Lapusnik for a time.

24 Q. So was this before or after you yourself went to Orahovac?

25 A. It was one day before.

Page 4550

1 Q. And what happened?

2 A. Until I was in the position. The -- Mesuesi came and he invited

3 me to go with him. It was afternoon. He was worried. On the way he

4 told me what it was all about. I just could see that he was upset.

5 First maybe I thought this was an act of provocation.

6 Q. What -- what position were you in?

7 A. In position number 2.

8 Q. You said that he told you what it was all about on the way. What

9 did he tell you?

10 A. He told me that, We have orders to go and kill those who are in

11 the prison downstairs.

12 Q. What happened -- so what happened next?

13 A. We went there but on the way we talked about what he wanted to

14 tell me. He said that there is nobody there, Qerqizi or Ymer were not

15 there. Nobody was there. He said that he was afraid that the war was

16 raging in Orahovac and shelling -- there was a lot of shelling also where

17 we were, and he was afraid, afraid of Serb forces penetrating into our

18 positions. So when he told me about that, I tried to convince him that

19 no danger could come to us aside from distant shelling.

20 After we went to the yard, there he decided to turn back, and we

21 didn't go inside.

22 Q. Which yard did you get to?

23 A. To the yard of the prison, I thought.

24 Q. Did he tell you who gave him the orders to kill those in the

25 prison?

Page 4551

1 A. No. No, he didn't mention any names.

2 Q. And what did you do after you decided not to go inside?

3 A. Since he was convinced that no threat was facing us, he as I said

4 earlier seemed upset, so we left it, we didn't go inside. So we didn't

5 mention this anymore after that.

6 Q. Now, I'm going to move to the topic of the attack of -- of the

7 Serbs on Lapusnik on the 25th and 26th of July.

8 Where were you when this happened?

9 A. In my position.

10 Q. Can you describe what happened?

11 A. Yes. In the morning the guard warned us of movements of the

12 enemy. When the light became greater, we could see large concentration

13 of forces coming from Komorane. At Komorane checkpoint we saw two

14 convoys of armoured cars, tanks and APCs as far as the eye could see.

15 They were coming in the direction of Pristina.

16 At 5.20 they started the attack. They took positions, some on

17 the right and some on the left, and they started to fire at the positions

18 of the KLA in that territory all at once.

19 Q. And was that on the 25th or the 26th, if you know?

20 A. On the 25th I said. This I had not forget. It was morning of

21 the 25th of July, 5.20 in the morning.

22 Q. Did the fighting continue that day?

23 A. Yes. They went on until late at night. Till 10.00, 11.00 in the

24 evening. But we could hear some sporadic shots even during the night,

25 until they took positions very close to our positions, maybe 200 or 300

Page 4552

1 metres from our positions. In the morning they started again, to fire

2 against us.

3 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session,

4 please.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.


25 Q. Witness, did you leave Lapusnik at some point?

Page 4553

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you remember when that was?

3 A. It was in the morning on the 26th.

4 Q. Do you remember how you left Lapusnik?

5 A. We left without any specific orders. We felt a great threat.

6 Not only the Serb forces were very close to us. They had entered

7 Lapusnik. So I thought that under these circumstances I could withdraw,

8 and I did withdraw. I went up to the hill that leads to Berisa to the

9 Vojvoda neighbourhood. Some people helped me there.

10 Q. Did you -- on your way out of Lapusnik, did you pass by the

11 prison compound?

12 A. Yes. The doors of the prison were open.

13 Q. Could you see anything inside?

14 A. No sound could be heard. I didn't go inside.

15 Q. Where did you go when you left Lapusnik?

16 A. To Berisa.

17 Q. How long did you stay in Berisa?

18 A. Until I drank some water and went on with my journey to

19 Novoselle.

20 Q. Did you arrive in Novoselle on the same day, on the 26th?

21 A. Yes. I needed a doctor's assistance.

22 Q. Now, did you hear anything about what happened to the prisoners

23 from Lapusnik?

24 A. Not that day. Someone said that they were released and they had

25 left before us.

Page 4554

1 Q. Did you hear anything on later days?

2 A. Yes. After two days, I heard rumours that two or three of them

3 had agreed to help in the fighting and one of them had gone with Ymer to

4 carry shells and the cannon in the course of which he was injured, when

5 Ymer was killed. He was injured on the arm.

6 On the 28th, I met Qerqiz. He gave me a lift with his car to

7 Klecke and he said that he had given each of them a piece of paper, a

8 document and all of them were released. I asked him because the family

9 members were asking for them and he told me that, They are free now.

10 Q. He gave you a lift to Klecke from where on the 28th?

11 A. Yes, it was in between Terpeze and Novoselle villages, on the way

12 to Novoselle.

13 Q. And you said you heard rumours about it or three of the prisoners

14 helping in the fighting. Can you tell us how you heard those rumours?

15 A. One who had expressed his wish to help, he had been with Ymer

16 when he got killed and that he himself had been injured in the arm. And

17 he had carried Ymer on his own shoulder up to the hospital.

18 Q. Did you talk to this person yourself?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if we could go into private session,

21 please.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4555

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you.

17 Q. Witness, did something happen to Ymer Alushani during the

18 offensive on Lapusnik?

19 A. Yes, he was killed in the morning.

20 Q. What happened with his body?

21 A. I'm not certain about the date, but after three days, we dragged

22 his body from Lapusnik because it remained there for three days. Ymer's

23 body and his weapon.

24 Q. And what happened after that?

25 A. We buried him in Klecke.

Page 4556

1 Q. Did you have a conversation with Celiku about recovering Ymer

2 Alushani's body?

3 A. My uncle and my -- Ymer's uncle and brother. I only accompanied

4 them. They talked. They came and said that they were not allowed to

5 take the body because it was dangerous to go there, that is for living

6 people to go and take a dead person. It was really very dangerous and it

7 was not allowed.

8 Q. Were you there when the uncle and brother of Ymer had a

9 conversation with Celiku or did you just hear about it later?

10 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour may I just intervene at this stage.

11 It's -- nobody has pointed it out yet, but there is in fact another

12 extraordinarily leading question. Did you have a conversation with

13 Celiku? Whether the answer is worth anything of course I appreciate is

14 for Your Honours, but effectively that is a question which seriously does

15 not arise in that context. If the question is, And what happened after

16 that? We buried him in Klecke, the next question should have been: And

17 did you have conversations about this with anyone and so on. It's just

18 worthless doing it in way, in my submission.

19 JUDGE PARKER: I think the question is built upon the preceding

20 answer which was to a question about a conversation with Celiku. And the

21 answer was that it was my uncle and brother. And I think that's what led

22 to this question.

23 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, may I just correct it that isn't

24 actually what happened. I still have it on the screen the questions

25 were: What happened with the body? What happened after that? Nothing

Page 4557

1 about a conversation. And then there's the leading question: Did you

2 have a conversation with Celiku? We really don't wish to intervene on

3 these occasions. It is clearly leading. It is clearly not a sensible

4 way of approaching this evidence and we restrain ourselves from repeating

5 it, it happens so often. And we say the answer is worthless and there

6 should be no question of that kind unless the foundation has been laid

7 and it hasn't been.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mansfield, I was merely transferring it's

9 source of the problem. It wasn't perhaps the question you identified but

10 the preceding one which was really the difficulty and but whichever it

11 was I'm not resisting your proposition.

12 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I was just try to be draw his

13 attention to the topic and just move through it quickly as possible.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Drawing your attention to that topic is not

15 something that I think you can reasonably anticipate to be acceptable to

16 the Defence.

17 MR. WHITING: Well, that's fine. I can go about it the way that

18 has been proposed.

19 JUDGE PARKER: You go about it however you feel so long as you

20 don't lead on such a fairly critical issue.

21 MR. WHITING: That's fine. I had not identified this as being a

22 particularly critical issue.

23 Q. Witness, did have you any conversations about Ymer Alushani's

24 body?

25 A. I don't know how it was translated, but I said the uncle, the

Page 4558

1 brother and myself went to Klecke to talk with Celiku. I didn't go

2 inside. I stayed out in the corridor talking with someone. His uncle

3 and brother talked with Celiku and they received the answer I mentioned.

4 Q. Can you give us again the answer that they received from -- what

5 they told to you about the answer that they received from Celiku.

6 A. The answer from Celiku was, No, you shouldn't go there. He said

7 that if some one of my soldiers will go there he will be shot. That was

8 his reply. And this was confirmed by his brother later and all Ymer's

9 comrades, all his unit knew that, because his uncle confirmed it too.

10 Q. Now, you said that after you left Lapusnik you went to Berisa and

11 then Novoselle. After that where did you go?

12 A. To Lladrovc village.

13 Q. And what did you do there?

14 A. Someone in Novoselle -- there was a doctor there, and he

15 administered me the first aid. I got other clothes in Lladrovc. In the

16 afternoon we buried a soldier who been killed on the 25th in Lapusnik and

17 that was it. We buried Ali Zogaj that day.

18 Q. And what happened the next day?

19 A. I stayed there in Lladrovc, until the 28th in the morning I

20 stayed there. When I recovered I left with a tractor up to a place, to

21 Terpeze. From there I started to walk on foot, to Klecke. On the way,

22 Qerqiz gave me a lift in his jeep, I said. It was a white jeep, an old

23 white jeep.

24 Q. How long did you stay in Klecke?

25 A. Three, four, or five days.

Page 4559

1 Q. Where did you go after that?

2 A. I went to Nekovce village.

3 Q. What did you do in Nekovce?

4 A. We got together there with some soldiers from Lapusnik into a

5 unit, and we took up positions at the entrance to Nekovce village.

6 Q. How long did you stay there in Nekovce?

7 A. Until the 20th of September.

8 Q. You said that you got together there with some soldiers from

9 Lapusnik into a unit. Approximately how many soldiers?

10 A. Eight persons.

11 Q. And did that number remain the same until the 20th of September?

12 A. Maybe one or two others joined us, but usually we didn't --

13 weren't more than seven, eight, maximum nine.

14 Q. And generally what did you do during that time from -- up until

15 the 20th of September?

16 A. We were waiting to see what had happened, in August there was

17 attack against the village, Nekovce, Kishna Reka, Shale, Bajice, and that

18 day we were engaged in fighting all day in Nekovce valley. Only that

19 unit. There was another unit in Nekovce, but that day they didn't take

20 part in the fighting. They withdrew with the population to the

21 mountains.

22 Q. Did the unit and the population that withdrew to the mountains,

23 did they ever return to Nekovce while you were there?

24 A. Yes. After the fighting that day, which as I said were strong

25 fighting, several people got killed from Nekovce village. After some

Page 4560












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4561

1 days, the Serb forces withdrew. And after several days the population

2 came back to their homes, one after the other. And the unit returned

3 with the population.

4 Q. Did -- during this time up until the 20th of September, did you

5 have any contact at all with Celiku?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And can you describe the nature of that contact?

8 A. There was a dispute between the unit that had returned, that one

9 from Nekovce, and our unit. We had asked them to take positions in

10 Divjak village but they had refused. They asked us to go to Divjak. We

11 told them that, It's you left this place on the day of the fighting so

12 it's you who should go to Divjak. We had a meeting. In that meeting we

13 couldn't make a decision as to what to do so we had an argument over this

14 issue. Again, Celiku disarmed some of them. Nine persons actually from

15 that unit, the Nekovce unit were disarmed, he wanted to disarm two or

16 three others from our unit, whereas me he asked me to go to another place

17 with another person, to go to Terpeze.

18 Q. Do you recall when this was?

19 A. I think on the 9th -- I went to Terpeze on the 19th or the 20th

20 of September.

21 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session,

22 please.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 4562











11 Pages 4562-4567 redacted. Private session.















Page 4568

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.


19 Q. Witness, did you stay in the Llap zone until the end of the war.

20 A. Yes. Not until the end, because in the end of April I passed to

21 Karadak zone.

22 Q. During the time that you were in the Llap zone, did you see any

23 prisons there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where did you see them?

Page 4569

1 A. Two persons were stopped and they were detained in Potok. These

2 I have seen. As for two or three others they were kept in Burice

3 village.

4 Q. And were these people, do you know if they were Serbs or

5 Albanians?

6 A. No. All of them were Albanians.

7 Q. Did you have any information on why they were being detained?

8 A. The two persons who were in Potok, they had created a unit in

9 Brastice village, a KLA unit and they were arrested there allegedly for

10 forming that unit out of their own accord. One had been an inspector in

11 the Serb police. He was Albanian. And the other was a citizen from

12 Pristina. In Burice village, there were some thieves were arrested.

13 Q. Do you remember when you saw the persons detained in Potok?

14 A. Yes. On the 5th I arrived Potok. On the 6th I saw them. The

15 6th of October.

16 Q. Did there come an occasion when you had a dispute with a

17 prisoner?

18 A. No. It could have been a misunderstanding because they were

19 free, they were in an oda where other soldiers were as well. Maybe

20 guarded them. We went out in front of the prison to take a walk with a

21 person who had been an inspector. And after half an hour, while I wanted

22 to go back, two jeeps came. They took the prisoner away.

23 As they explained it to me, they suspected that I might have want

24 to the kill this police inspector. They thought -- they suspected that

25 someone from Drenica had sent me to kill this inspector. This was not

Page 4570

1 true.

2 Q. Where did this happen that you are describing?

3 A. In Potok. On 6th of October. And on the same night I returned

4 to Burice in order not to be in the same place with the others. And as I

5 said, these two arrested persons were given back their weapons, and they

6 formed a unit in the Llap territory.

7 Q. Did there come an occasion when you struck a prisoner?

8 A. This happened in Burice, not in Potok after several days. It

9 happened in Burice village. As I said, there were some thieves who had

10 plundered the civilian population. And they were very provocative about

11 the beard. No one in the Llap zone had beard. It was forbidden, and

12 this was the argument, so I hit one of the prisoners several times, two

13 or three times.

14 Q. And did you do that with your fist or with something else?

15 A. There was something inside that I tried to get, and I wanted to

16 hit him with that on his body, but I know that I slapped him. I didn't

17 hit him with the fist. The intention was not to harm him, but just to

18 stop him with the provocations and he stopped provoking me.

19 Q. Witness, with the assistance of the usher, I want to show you

20 Prosecution Exhibit 169. And I'm going to ask you to turn to the back

21 pages, 7029 to 7031.

22 MR. WHITING: And on the English translation it's pages 23 to 25.

23 Q. Witness, do you see on these pages there's some entries starting

24 with 10 May, 18 May, 1998, 21 May. Do you see those entries? They go up

25 to an entry for 28 July. And then one that's just marked July.

Page 4571

1 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I can see them.

2 Q. Do you know when those entries were written in the book?

3 A. These were written much later. It was loose paper, found in my

4 pockets and they were most probably written in August or in September, in

5 Nekovce. But just not to lose it, I wrote it in small sentences.

6 Q. And when you say they were written in Nekovce in August or in

7 September, is that in 1998?

8 A. Yes, 1998.

9 Q. Can I draw your attention to the entry for 22 June. And if you

10 could just read that entry, please.

11 A. Shall I read it?

12 Q. Please, if you could. Just the entry for 22 June.

13 A. "Everything took a different direction in the KLA now. The life

14 of every soldier was becoming more than enough. In Celiku's zone, with

15 different sorts of patrols or paroles. Controls and other types of

16 masquerade."

17 Q. Do you remember what this entry refers to?

18 A. This refers to shortly to some arrests that were being made; to

19 disarmament in particular, of the soldiers, of those soldiers who had

20 been disarmed. To such things. You could see that in Lapusnik they

21 didn't bother much. They -- the soldiers were treated like a spending

22 material [as interpreted]. Everything was in the hands of those who were

23 in the command and about the command and above. Even if you had a need

24 for food to go to your family, you had to wait for Qerqiz or someone else

25 to get a permission just to go back home to intervene in case there was

Page 4572

1 someone sick, and similar things.

2 Q. Thank you, Witness.

3 MR. WHITING: I have no further questions.

4 JUDGE PARKER: If you would like start tonight you are free to do

5 so, Mr. Mansfield. But given the hour, it may be more practical if it

6 were the morning -- tomorrow afternoon.

7 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. If I may. Thank you.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. As there are only five or six minutes to go,

9 we will adjourn now and continue tomorrow afternoon at 2.15.

10 MR. TOPOLSKI: Can I just raise something before Your Honours

11 rise. Sorry to delay you.

12 Your Honours, we did our best on the end of last week in the

13 absence of Mr. Limaj to give counsel's best assurances regarding the

14 remainder of this week and what we anticipate and still anticipate to be

15 the position. Your Honour, I don't know precisely how long Mr. Mansfield

16 is go be, but he tells me as he told you the best part of tomorrow, and

17 probably tomorrow.

18 The assurances we gave as I say, remain the case. But, Your

19 Honour I simply rise to say this: That in such an important case about

20 such an important witness I know the Tribunal would not my lay client to

21 feel that his counsel was in any way being rushed through what inevitably

22 will be an important cross-examination. I shall as always endeavour not

23 to duplicate what has gone before me, but Your Honours can anticipate

24 from a three-day examination-in0chief there is an enormous amount of

25 material that touches against the case against my client from the mouth

Page 4573

1 of this witness. I know the Tribunal will not want to impose any undue

2 pressure or indeed any pressure in those circumstances.

3 May I please have liberty to raise this matter again, perhaps

4 during the course of tomorrow to see how we are progressing. Leaving

5 open the glimmer of a thought in the Tribunal's mind that if people have

6 not made other arrangements, Thursday is an option. Or perhaps it is no

7 longer is, in the Tribunal's mind. You will see why I raise this matter

8 now out of an abundance of caution and somewhat diffidently, because I

9 don't go behind anything that any of us have Defence bar said to this

10 Court last week. And I hope nothing I said in any sense contradicts it.

11 But it seemed to me that it was worth raising it, given that we had a

12 moment or two tonight to spare, as it were.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Topolski, thank you for that. As you

14 appreciate, on Thursday the concern of the Chamber was to be sure of

15 allowing adequate time because we anticipated that there would seem to be

16 importance with this witness and the cross-examination. As matters

17 eventuated, it was not possible to use anything of Thursday or Friday

18 because of the problem of health. So that time was not lost

19 unnecessarily, and we are now looking at three days of hearing this week,

20 which you hoped would be enough, but may not prove to be enough.

21 MR. TOPOLSKI: I still hope.

22 JUDGE PARKER: I can only say that I have made arrangements about

23 other cases for Thursday. I may be able to undo those arrangement but I

24 haven't yet consulted with my two fellow Judges, so I don't know whether

25 there will be any possibility of any sitting on Thursday. I think

Page 4574

1 probably not.

2 MR. TOPOLSKI: Well, Your Honours, thank you for that. And I

3 will attempt to cut my cross to the cloth to the suit that is available.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. Thank you for that.

5 We will adjourn now. We will continue tomorrow at 2.15. Thank

6 you.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of

9 March, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.