1 Tuesday, 17 January 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: [B/C/S on English channel].

7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but I believe the B/C/S is

8 coming on the English channel. I don't know if that's been corrected.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The B/C/S --

10 MR. WHITING: I'm getting the nod that it's been corrected. Thank

11 you.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

13 Mr. Dzakula, you are reminded that you are still bound by the

14 declaration that you made yesterday to tell the truth and nothing else but

15 the truth, okay?

16 You may proceed, Mr. Whiting.

17 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 WITNESS: VELJKO DZAKULA [Resumed]

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examined by Mr. Whiting: [Continued]

21 Q. Mr. Dzakula, when we finished yesterday we started to talk about

22 the special session of the RSK that was held at the end of 1992 in

23 Vrbovljani near Okucani and that that session related to --

24 A. I cannot hear the interpretation. I can hear well, but it's not

25 the interpretation. Now I hear it.

1 Q. Do you hear me now in your own language?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. I will start my question over again, but I just want to be sure

4 that you understood that the Judge reminded you that you are still bound

5 by the declaration that you made yesterday to tell the truth and nothing

6 else but the truth. Did you understand that from the Judge?

7 A. I heard that and I thought that that was it, but I did not hear

8 the interpretation of it.

9 Q. Well, I'm glad now that we've made sure about that.

10 I'll start my question over again. Mr. Dzakula, yesterday when we

11 finished the testimony, we had started to talk about a special session of

12 the RSK that was held at the end of 1992, and I'm going to have to say the

13 name of the village again, in Vrbovljani near Okucani, and that this

14 session related to refugees. Do you recall that testimony from yesterday?

15 A. I remember.

16 Q. Now, just to be clear, was the session about Serb refugees or

17 Croatian refugees returning to Western Slavonia?

18 A. What was discussed were both refugees, Serbs and Croats.

19 Q. Now, you testified yesterday that you heard that before the

20 meeting occurred of the RSK government, the session, that there had been a

21 meeting with the prime minister and several other ministers in Okucani

22 where they agreed that your proposal would not be adopted. You recall

23 telling us about that meeting yesterday?

24 A. I remember.

25 Q. Now, who was the prime minister at that time that you referred to?

1 A. It was Zdravko Zecevic; he was prime minister.

2 Q. Do you know if Milan Martic was at that meeting, before the

3 session?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And how do you know that?

6 A. That's what Stevo Bogic, deputy prime minister, told me, who

7 returned earlier from that rather short meeting.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I interrupt you, Mr. Whiting. There's a knock

9 somewhere outside here that is disturbing the proceedings. Can someone

10 please check what is the problem.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I'm told it's being checked. Thank

13 you.

14 MR. WHITING: Do you want me to proceed, Your Honour -- okay.

15 Q. And do you know, was Stevo Bogic at that meeting? Had he been at

16 that meeting, himself?

17 A. Well, yes, he told me that he was present when they discussed this

18 and that he heard that they had said that nothing would come out of this

19 return action and that I would not be supported in it.

20 Q. Now, let's talk about what happened at the session itself of the

21 government that dealt with this issue. And I'm particularly interested

22 in, for the purposes of this case, in the discussions about the return of

23 Croatian refugees to the area. Could you tell us what was discussed at

24 the session on this topic?

25 A. Well, since we from Western Slavonia had given a proposal to start

1 the action of returning the refugees, primarily to Western Slavonia and

2 then to other parts of the RSK, and we proposed certain places where this

3 should happen. However, this met with a lack of understanding straight

4 away. It was said that the war had just finished, that wounds were still

5 open, that it was a very delicate issue for the people of the Krajina, and

6 that it was difficult to accept that those people who waged war against us

7 would return to their homes. And I can say that practically it was a

8 majority that thought that way, and certain individuals were very

9 vociferous. However, the idea was that conditions had not been created

10 for the return of refugees and that it could not be started. So that was

11 the conclusion that was reached after a rather lengthy discussion.

12 Q. Now, when you say that your proposal was met with a lack of

13 understanding, that's how it's been translated for us, could you clarify

14 exactly what you mean by that. What do you mean by "lack of

15 understanding"?

16 A. Well, when I said that we suggested that return -- the return of

17 refugees should start, they said that this proposal could not be accepted

18 and that refugees could not start returning to the Republic of the Serb

19 Krajina.

20 Q. And here, to be clear -- I put it in the question, in the original

21 question, but just to be clear, we're talking specifically about Croatian

22 refugees. Is that right?

23 A. We are talking about Croat refugees, too, that they should also

24 return to the RSK, to Western Slavonia, but we're also talking about Serb

25 refugees who should return to that part of Western Slavonia who was under

1 the control of the UN and of the Croat authorities. Neither proposal was

2 accepted -- or rather, it was a single proposal concerning the return of

3 refugees both ways, but neither was accepted.

4 Q. Okay. So the proposal is -- just to be clear about your answer

5 here, the proposal is about Serb refugees returning to the areas under UN

6 and Croat control and Croat refugees returning to the area under Serb

7 control?

8 A. Yes, yes. That's right.

9 Q. And when you said earlier in your -- just a minute or two ago,

10 when you said: "It was difficult" -- that the people who opposed this

11 proposal said that: "It was difficult to accept that those people who

12 waged war against us would return to their homes," who were they talking

13 about?

14 A. Croatian refugees who had fled from the RSK during the war, and

15 that is what was meant, how their return could be accepted in the

16 territory of the RSK.

17 Q. Did Milan Martic speak at this session?

18 A. Well, he also said that conditions had not been created for the

19 return. He said that he understood the problem; that's what he said, that

20 he understood the problem and that he understood why I was striving for

21 this return, but that the conditions had not been created for it and that

22 therefore they could not return. Those were his words.

23 Q. And did you agree that the conditions had not been created for the

24 return?

25 A. No, I did not agree. Because I said that conditions had been

1 created for it in Western Slavonia and that when the Croats returned to

2 the RSK and when the Serbs went to the area that was held by the

3 authorities of the Republic of Croatia, support would be rendered and

4 there would also be a balance of fear, so to speak. We would protect

5 refugees who came to our area and we expected the UN to protect Serb

6 refugees who would come to the territory that was under the control of

7 Croatia. We discussed that with the Canadian Battalion, and it could have

8 started. I believe that the climate, if I can put it that way, was

9 already right in our area by then, but the answer was no.

10 Q. Those things that you've just said now about the climate being

11 right and how you envisioned how this could happen, did you say those

12 things at the session?

13 A. Well, yes. I spoke several times, and I explained that in that

14 area there was already this checkpoint, that is what it was called, where

15 every Thursday members of families would meet up or people who used to

16 live in the same town, about 3.000 of them, they would meet there and talk

17 and then they would go their separate ways. So communication had already

18 started, and I used that by way of an argument, and every time I spoke I

19 said that we can be sure that this process would develop properly.

20 However, there was no support.

21 Q. Now, this, you testified, was at the end of 1992. Did the

22 position of Milan Martic and the others ever change on the question of the

23 return of refugees?

24 A. Well, as far as I know, no, because this process had never

25 started. And refugees never returned to the area of the Republic of the

1 Serb Krajina, and the Serbs did not go to the area that we refer to in

2 Western Slavonia where the authorities of the Republic of Croatia

3 exercised control.

4 Q. Now, yesterday in -- in response to a question, you talked about

5 some crimes that you heard about during 1991. And I just want to go

6 through in a little more detail what you heard with respect to some of the

7 crimes that you mentioned. You mentioned hearing about crimes occurring

8 in Skabrnja in 1991. Can you tell us any more about what you recall

9 having heard?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before he does so, is it possible to let us know

11 who he heard this from and if that person is going to be called as a

12 witness?

13 MR. WHITING: Well, I was going to -- I was going to get to that,

14 Your Honour. I was going to ask him what he heard and then --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Even before we can hear the hearsay evidence, I

16 would like to be satisfied - I beg your pardon - that it's going to be

17 confirmed, otherwise we're going to hear a lot of hearsay evidence and it

18 may not be confirmed.

19 MR. WHITING: Well, Your Honour, with respect, hearsay is

20 admissible at the Tribunal and it -- whether it's confirmed or not.

21 Obviously the nature of the testimony, whether it's hearsay or not, will

22 obviously figure in the weight that is given to the testimony. But

23 there's a considerable amount of evidence that will be presented which

24 will be hearsay and which not will necessarily be confirmed in the way

25 that the Court has indicated, that is, that the person will come who

1 actually said it and come and say it.

2 So this is -- under the Rules and under the law of the Tribunal

3 quite a normal way of proceeding, that information is brought out about

4 what people heard at the time. And then of course I will for the Court --

5 in order to evaluate the evidence and for the Court to determine what kind

6 of weight should be given to the evidence, I will of course follow up on

7 how he heard about it, from whom, and so forth. But I think that the

8 evidence is -- can properly be brought in its form as hearsay evidence

9 before the Chamber.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And are you able to guide this Court on the

11 probative value of any evidence that's unconfirmed?

12 MR. WHITING: Well, I -- with respect to this issue, I could

13 address that. And of course we will address -- we will -- I'm not sure

14 it's the proper time to do that. But of course we will address the weight

15 that should be given to evidence and why it's important whether it was

16 heard at the time. Why that in itself would have been important. The

17 fact that it was heard at the time actually has significance in terms of

18 notice evidence. So there -- in this case, for example, the fact that

19 it's hearsay I don't think will undermine the evidence; I think it will be

20 very important to the Court's consideration of the charges.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hear what you say. I'm not asking you to address

22 the probative value of this specific evidence. I'm asking you as a

23 general rule in this Tribunal where you say hearsay evidence is

24 admissible, I'm saying -- are you able to venture an idea of what

25 probative value is given in this Tribunal to unconfirmed hearsay evidence?

1 MR. WHITING: It depends -- it -- I can address that, Your Honour.

2 And it depends completely on the circumstances of the evidence.

3 Sometimes -- and the nature of the issue being discussed and the -- what

4 the witness is able to say and what the Court's evaluation is. There's

5 some hearsay evidence that I would suggest will carry quite a bit of

6 weight and have quite a bit of probative value. There's other hearsay

7 evidence that the Court may determine will not have significant weight.

8 But that -- the whole range is available.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Whiting.

10 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Dzakula, I -- as you may have gathered from that -- the

12 exchange that I've had with the Chamber, I will -- once I've asked you

13 what you've heard about various matters, I will be interested in following

14 up and making sure I learn and the Chamber can hear where you heard that

15 from and from whom, the best you can remember.

16 But could you tell us first in 1991, what did you hear about

17 crimes committed in Skabrnja?

18 A. I heard that on the Croatian media, that in Skabrnja a large

19 number of civilians had been killed in actions in which JNA forces had

20 participated as well as the police forces of the Krajina -- or rather, the

21 TO of Krajina.

22 Q. Well, you said "police forces of Krajina -- or rather, TO of

23 Krajina." Did -- were you intending to indicate both or one or -- just --

24 are you able to clarify that at all, whether it was police forces or the

25 TO or both?

1 A. Both forces.

2 Q. And you've indicated that you heard this on the Croatian media.

3 Did you hear it from any other source?

4 A. Well, in 1991, on the Croatian media.

5 Q. And did you hear it at a later time from any other source?

6 A. Well, later when I was at the government meeting and when I had

7 contacts with Zdravko Zecevic, he talked about that. He said that there

8 had been crimes, that this had happened. He mentioned Skabrnja. He

9 mentioned some other places, too. I cannot remember exactly which ones he

10 referred to then.

11 Q. And perhaps you've told us, but could you tell us again who

12 Mr. Zecevic was. What position did he hold when you told you this

13 information?

14 A. Zdravko Zecevic was prime minister of the Republic of Serb

15 Krajina, and the two of us travelled to New York in April 1992. We had a

16 lot of time to talk, and he talked about the difficult position of all,

17 notably villages that were ravaged in the war. He mentioned crimes, and

18 in that context he mentioned Skabrnja and some other places, too, but I

19 cannot remember exactly which ones in that context. There was quite a bit

20 of that on all sides.

21 Q. And do you know what municipality Mr. Zecevic was from?

22 A. Mr. Zecevic was from Benkovac.

23 Q. And was -- do you know if he was in Benkovac during the war in

24 1991?

25 A. Yes, he was in Benkovac in 1991.

1 Q. And, to be clear, when you heard about these things in 1991 from

2 the Croatian media, you were, yourself, in -- living in Western Slavonia?

3 A. Yes, at that time I was in Western Slavonia.

4 Q. Now, you also mentioned yesterday hearing about crimes in

5 Kostajnica. Do you recall what you heard about that in 1991?

6 A. I heard that from the Croat media, too, that there was a lot of

7 fighting in Kostajnica, and that the police and the JNA forces fought

8 against the Croatian police and that many people were arrested. And also

9 that many persons were killed, both civilians and policemen.

10 Q. You also mentioned that -- the area of Banija. Can you, first of

11 all, tell us what municipalities are -- to your knowledge, are within that

12 area?

13 A. In that area of Banija are Vrginmost, Petrinja, Glina, Dvor,

14 Kostajnica.

15 Q. And do you recall what you heard in 1991 about crimes in that

16 area?

17 A. In the area of those municipalities, in the Croat villages,

18 civilians were killed. That's what I heard from the Croat media. As each

19 municipality fell, from a military point of view, the media were talking

20 about civilians who were killed.

21 Q. Finally you talked -- you mentioned Dalmatia. Did you hear about

22 crimes committed in Dalmatia?

23 A. Well, likewise. Things were followed in the media. There was a

24 lot of fighting near Zadar, Obrovac, Sibenik, and it was said that in the

25 Croat villages there quite a few people were killed, both Croat policemen

1 and civilians. This was reported on every day, regularly.

2 Q. Did you hear about any prisons in the Krajina during 1991?

3 A. I heard that there was a prison in Knin. I don't know whether it

4 was in the hospital or in the barracks because both locations were

5 mentioned. Also, there were prisons in the police stations, in Benkovac,

6 Obrovac.

7 Q. Did you hear anything about who was held in these prisons?

8 A. They held the arrested persons there, the arrested Croat soldiers

9 and policemen. And there were also some criminals who were Serbs who had

10 committed various offences.

11 Q. What about Croat civilians? Did you hear anything about them?

12 A. I learned that from the media, that those who were arrested were

13 Croats. They were arrested during the exchanges. When they were talking

14 about possible exchanges, then they were mentioning these arrested

15 civilians.

16 Q. Did you hear anything about a priest?

17 A. Yes. I heard that one Catholic and one Orthodox priest were

18 exchanged. Both of them were beaten up to quite an extensive degree.

19 Q. The Catholic priest was Croat, and the Orthodox priest was Serb?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recall when you heard about that?

22 A. I heard that later, sometime in 1992. Then during those days, a

23 lot of that was reported in the media during the trial. They also

24 reported on it, and this is what brought it back in my memory.

25 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session just a

1 moment, please?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we -- shall the Court please go into private

3 session.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 MR. WHITING:

25 Q. Now, Mr. Dzakula, given what -- given what you knew in 1991 about

1 the SAO Krajina and about the war, do you have an opinion about whether --

2 whether you think Milan Martic would have, himself, been aware of those

3 crimes that you heard about?

4 A. Well --

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Objections, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The witness should tell us

8 about what he knows personally. He should tell us whether he knows about

9 certain things. As for his opinion and the question that was phrased in

10 those terms by the Prosecution, I believe that that is completely

11 unacceptable.

12 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, the opinion I was seeking to solicit

13 was -- and I tried to phrase it in the question was to be based on his

14 knowledge at the time and facts. And I was going to of course clarify

15 what -- if he had an opinion, what it was based on. And the Court could

16 give it whatever weight it wishes.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think the phraseology was a little bit

18 unfortunate, Mr. Whiting. I did note that myself, but I thought if the

19 Defence was not going to object, I would let it go. But -- and I

20 understood your use of the word "opinion" in context. However, given the

21 objection, I think it would be advisable for you to lay the foundation for

22 asking for that viewpoint on the part of the witness.

23 MR. WHITING: Well, I'll try to do that, Your Honour, but we'll

24 see where this goes.

25 Q. Mr. Dzakula, during the war in 1991, you've already testified that

1 you were living in Western Slavonia.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you follow the events of the war in the media?

4 A. We did follow. We listened to the radio.

5 Q. Which media did you listen to? You've already spoken about

6 different kinds of media. Can you tell us which media you listened to?

7 A. I followed Zagreb and Belgrade media.

8 Q. Did you also have conversations with people -- and first I'm going

9 to ask in 1991. Did you have conversations with people in 1991 about the

10 war?

11 A. I talked to people in my environment.

12 Q. Did that environment include people who had spent time in the SAO

13 Krajina during 1991?

14 A. If you are referring to 1991, then I can tell you that I spoke to

15 Zecevic and Veselinovic. We spoke somewhere near Banja Luka in 1991. We

16 just happened to meet there.

17 Q. Now, how about later? Did you -- after 1991, did you have further

18 conversations with people about what had occurred in the war?

19 A. Yes. We spoke in 1991 when I was in the government of the RSK, we

20 spoke about what was going on in Western Slavonia, about the plight of our

21 people, and what was happening in the villages there.

22 I also remember when we travelled to New York, Mr. Zecevic and I.

23 I spoke about Marrack Goulding, under-secretary of the UN. I spoke to him

24 about the torching in Western Slavonia. And then he told me that in

25 Dalmatia all Croatian villages had been razed to the ground. Then Stanko

1 Zecevic told me about the combat that took place there, telling me that a

2 lot of villages perished, a lot of civilians, soldiers and policemen were

3 killed.

4 At the time, after the government sessions, we did not go into

5 detail. We did not discuss exactly what had happened. However, crimes

6 were mentioned, especially the events of Milajcki -- of Miljacki plateau,

7 or rather, Miljevac plateau, and other things that had happened there.

8 We also asked for the trials to begin in Western Slavonia, for

9 what had happened there. And in addition to that, we started setting up

10 the judiciary. I remember that Mr. Ecimovic and I spoke to the judges who

11 were supposed to conduct trials, and at the time they told us that they

12 were not ready and that they could not put Serbs on trial. This surprised

13 us. We said that it was not the Serbs who were put on trial, but rather

14 certain individuals who had committed certain crimes. This indicated that

15 people at the time were still not ready to take up such tasks. It was

16 known that certain individuals had committed such acts. However, they

17 were never tried.

18 Q. Did you also in the media see -- were there reports that talked --

19 in 1991, were there reports that talked -- either in the Serb media or the

20 Zagreb media that talked about Milan Martic?

21 A. Yes, it was mentioned in the news. In Croatian media it was said

22 that the Martic units, together with the JNA, were attacked in Croatian

23 villages; whereas the Serb media spoke about the defence of the Serbian

24 villages by the JNA and Serb TO and police.

25 Q. And you testified earlier that from February 1992 until about

1 February of 1993, you were in -- you, yourself, was a -- you were in the

2 RSK government, and Milan Martic of course was also in that government.

3 Were you able then to observe Martic operating in the government and how

4 he behaved with respect to his position?

5 A. He held quite a lot of authority in the government, both with

6 respect to Zecevic and other ministers. He enjoyed a lot of respect, had

7 a great authority among these people. He did not frequently attend

8 government sessions, in view of his many obligations. He would usually be

9 there when the first item was discussed, namely the military and political

10 situation, and later on he would normally leave. However, he wielded a

11 lot of authority, both when it came to his ministry, regarding which he

12 proposed various regulations and so on, and it was never opposed,

13 precisely because of his authority. He was supported by Rastovic,

14 Bozanic, Zecevic, and I think that in that sense he had absolute authority

15 as a minister.

16 Q. By the way, do you know if the media that was available to you in

17 Western Slavonia in 1991, was that also available in the Krajina region at

18 that time?

19 A. Yes. It was possible to follow it because the areas are quite

20 close and there was nothing to impede the broadcast.

21 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think I've laid a foundation for the

22 question. Thank you.

23 Q. Mr. Dzakula, if I could go back to the question now. Do you think

24 in 1991 that -- based on everything you know, do you think that Milan

25 Martic would have known about the crimes that you heard about that were

1 committed -- that you heard about being committed in the Krajina in 1991?

2 A. I think that it was possible for him to know the SAO Krajina

3 police could have informed him. He also could have received information

4 through the media.

5 As for Dalmatia, that was precisely the territory where he was

6 most often present and, yes, he was able to know about the events that

7 were happening.

8 Q. Did you ever hear about Milan Martic at any time punishing or

9 disciplining anybody for crimes committed against Croat civilians?

10 A. I didn't hear that.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] When the Prosecution put the

14 penultimate question, I did not intervene, believing that that would

15 complicate the situation further. I was going to object to the content of

16 the questions.

17 This question presupposes that there is an indisputable evidence

18 of the crimes committed. We are now, in this trial, supposed to establish

19 whether the crimes were committed, and if so, by whom and when. We are

20 now dealing with the events reported by the media, and the Prosecutor now

21 presents this in his question as evidence, as indisputable evidence that

22 the crimes were committed and asks the witness to give his opinion. I

23 believe that we are now on very dangerous ground, that jumps the gun, so

24 to speak.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any response, Mr. Whiting?

1 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour.

2 I initially phrased -- I think you can see on the transcript that

3 I said -- initially I did say: "The crimes that were committed," and then

4 I rephrased it to say: "That you heard about being committed," and that

5 was the point of the question. Does he think Milan Martic would have

6 known about the crimes, that he heard about being committed. Of course I

7 recognise -- the Prosecution obviously recognises that we have to prove

8 that the crimes were committed.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise.

10 With your permission, I would like to say something briefly.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 My learned friend from the Prosecution first asked the witness

14 about his opinion regarding that, whether it was possible for Mr. Martic

15 to know that the alleged or actual crimes had, indeed, been committed. He

16 asked the witness for his opinion, and then the next question was whether

17 the witness knew that Mr. Martic punished somebody for the allegedly

18 committed crimes. So we are now pre-empting the whole issue, and I

19 believe that this is unacceptable. This question could be phrased in

20 totally different terms, in a much more general way, which would not lead

21 the witness to the answer. The Defence believes this to be extremely

22 dangerous.

23 Thank you.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before I deal with the objection, can we get

25 assistance. Our LiveNote are dead, and the record has now disappeared

1 from the screen. I'm not able to bring it back to see what the witness

2 has been saying.

3 Okay. May I now deal with the objection. The problem I have,

4 Mr. Whiting, with your question is that you put to the witness: "Did you

5 ever hear about Milan Martic at any time punishing or disciplining anybody

6 for crimes committed against Croat civilians?"

7 That question puts into the mouth of the witness the -- the

8 allegation that Mr. Martic did discipline or punish somebody. What you

9 want him to answer is whether he did hear of that kind of punishment. In

10 other words, you're stating it as a fact or it -- it is suggested to him

11 that there has been a punishment and what is being sought of him is to say

12 whether or not he heard of that punishment.

13 Now, that, in my view, is leading; in other words, it's putting

14 words into the mouth of the witness. And I think the question is

15 objectionable, phrased in that sense. I think the question could be

16 phrased differently so that we hear from the witness and not from counsel

17 what, if anything, Martic did about these crimes.

18 MR. WHITING: I understand, Your Honour. It certainly wasn't my

19 intention to lead the witness, and --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that it may not have been your

21 intention, but that is the result, Mr. Whiting.

22 MR. WHITING: Right.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I try and intervene here maybe? I don't know

24 whether this will help.

25 Mr. Dzakula, do you know if anything happened to the people who

1 allegedly committed the crimes that you heard anything about?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear anything about that.

3 I don't know.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think that disposes of the question.

5 MR. WHITING:

6 Q. Did you, Mr. Dzakula, hear anything about what happened to people

7 that committed other crimes, that is, crimes against Serbs? And here I'm

8 talking about the time period of -- you can answer first for 1991, but

9 then I'm going to ask you for the later time period.

10 A. You asked me whether I heard about crimes against Serbs. I don't

11 know in what sense do you mean? Serbs were killed in Croatia by Croatian

12 side, and there were those who were killed by the Serbian side. And on

13 the Serbian side, those who were suspected of the crimes were arrested and

14 put in prison. When I was on the Serbian territory, when I was in the

15 prison, I saw people who had committed crimes, killed other people, as a

16 result of which they were detained in the prison in Glina.

17 Q. And who, to be clear, was detaining these people, that is, which

18 entity or force in Glina?

19 A. As far as I know, police is the organ that arrests and detains

20 people, and then once they are in prison, it is the investigative judge

21 who conducts an investigation and issues indictments. So police was the

22 organ which arrested people, and investigative judges did the rest.

23 Q. And the people that you saw in the prison that you say were

24 detained in the prison in Glina for having committed crimes, do you know

25 if they committed crimes against Serbs or against Croats?

1 A. The ones that I met there, that I saw there, were the cases where

2 crimes were committed against Serbs.

3 Q. Were you aware of any crimes committed against Croats in Western

4 Slavonia during 1991?

5 A. There were a number of those crimes committed there in the

6 territory of Western Slavonia in the north in Cetekovac, whereas in the

7 Pakrac vicinity there were two specific crimes. A man called Sokolovic

8 threw a hand-grenade, killing a whole family, and then a man called

9 Kovacevic, nicknamed Sikirica, committed certain crimes with an axe.

10 Initially he chopped down, with his axe, several Croats. And once there

11 were no Croats, then he chopped down several Serbs. These were the most

12 notorious crimes. These people moved about freely during the war.

13 And once the Operation Flash was carried out, Kovacevic died in a

14 clash with Croatian police, and Sokolovic drowned while fleeing across the

15 Dravur [as interpreted] river into Bosnia. He couldn't swim. These

16 people were never investigated or put on trial. Sokolovic, the person who

17 committed this crime, occasionally went to Croatian side, across the

18 confrontation line. Croatian police arrested and beat him, and during the

19 beating he accused somebody else of the crime, falsely accused, and this

20 person is now serving a 20-year prison sentence in Lepoglava prison, even

21 though the crime was committed by Sokolovic and not the man in question.

22 Q. These crimes that you talked about, the specific crimes that you

23 talked about, when, to your knowledge, did they occur?

24 A. They took place in early fall, in early October or late September

25 of 1991.

1 Q. And these two men that you talked about, Sokolovic and Kovacevic,

2 do you know anything about what they did from 1992 until Operation Flash

3 in 1995?

4 A. Sokolovic was a member of the Territorial Defence; he stood

5 guard. As for Kovacevic, I don't think he was mobilised. I think he was

6 a civilian. I don't think anybody mobilised him. The other one I

7 frequently saw in uniform bearing arms.

8 Q. Now, you testified yesterday about a Mirko Raskovic. Did you ever

9 have a conversation with that man about Milan Martic?

10 A. Yes, I did speak to him sometime in 1996 or 1997. We spoke even

11 later. But then, in 1996 or 1997, we talked and mentioned Milan Martic.

12 Q. Can you tell us what was discussed in the conversation?

13 A. Well, I asked him, inter alia, whether he knew Milan Martic and he

14 said that he knew him and that he personally replaced him or dismissed him

15 from work. I don't know exactly whether he replaced him or dismissed him

16 because he was harsh and violent in his demeanour, and that is why he was

17 dismissed. I don't know which one of the two words he used, "removed"

18 or "dismissed" from work.

19 Q. And do you know -- did he tell you when it was that he had either

20 removed him or dismissed him from work, when that had occurred?

21 A. Well, this was before the war. I don't know exactly which year.

22 But at any rate, it was before the war started.

23 Q. During 1991, did you hear about somebody by the -- that was

24 referred to as Captain Dragan?

25 A. I heard -- I heard about him. I read about him, heard about him

1 over the media, the Serb media, about Captain Dragan.

2 Q. And what did you hear about him?

3 A. Well, he was referred to as a very capable officer who was

4 familiar with military training, and that he was training soldiers who

5 were called Knindzas, that he was doing that in the area of Knin, that his

6 soldiers were brave, capable, courageous and that is the kind of thing

7 that is written about what he did.

8 Q. Yesterday you referred to the Posavina Corridor. Could you tell

9 us what that is. What is the Posavina Corridor?

10 A. It is an area in Bosanska Posavina from Banja Luka. The area of

11 Bosanska Gradiska, that part, to the border with Serbia. In that area, in

12 Bosanska Posavina, there was a predominantly Croat population, although

13 there were Bosniaks and Serbs, too. A road goes through it as a link

14 between Krajina and Serbia. It had been blocked; that is the information

15 that we received. And then the military forces of Republika Srpska and

16 the military and police forces of the Republic of Serb Krajina wanted to

17 make this break-through, so that the corridor would continue unhindered.

18 The media were saying that there were no medicines for the hospital in

19 Banja Luka and for children in Banja Luka, and other vital supplies were

20 lacking and that is what was said at the time, that that is why it was

21 necessary to create this passage, this corridor as it was called.

22 Q. And when did that occur?

23 A. Well, I don't know exactly. It was the end of May/beginning of

24 June 1992. I think it was sometime in June 1992.

25 Q. Do you know if Milan Martic played a role in that operation?

1 A. Well, Milan Martic led a unit from the Republic of Serb Krajina at

2 this corridor.

3 Q. How do you know that?

4 A. Well, at the time it was mentioned at government meetings and also

5 through the media, all the media. The success that was achieved through

6 this break-through, Martic personally was promoted by the president of the

7 Republic of Serb Krajina, Goran Hadzic, and the rank of general was

8 bestowed upon him.

9 Q. Mr. Dzakula, in your position in the government of the RSK, did

10 you have occasion to see the signature of Milan Martic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Are you able to recognise his signature?

13 A. I think I'm able to.

14 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, finally the moment we've all been

15 waiting for. I'm going to try out the E-court system. Could we publish,

16 please, 02076690.

17 Q. Mr. Dzakula, are you able to see that document on the screen in

18 front of you?

19 A. I can see that.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we supposed to do anything for that document to

21 come on our screen?

22 MR. WHITING: On the monitor, if you hit computer evidence, it

23 will -- you'll see it in B/C/S. And on your own computer that you can log

24 into, if you are in the E-court system, if you look at the -- if you've

25 logged into English, you should see the English translation. And I don't

1 know if the Court requires assistance for this.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: We see the script -- the transcript. I see the ...

3 You may proceed.

4 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Dzakula, I think in front of you you should see the second

6 page of that document, in the bottom. Is that what you see?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are you able to recognise the signature on that page?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Whose signature is it?

11 A. It is the signature of Mr. Martic.

12 Q. There's also a stamp there. Are you able to say anything about

13 that stamp?

14 A. This is a stamp of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of

15 Serb Krajina.

16 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'd move this exhibit into evidence,

17 please.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The exhibit is admitted into evidence. May it be

19 given an exhibit number, please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be exhibit P11 --

21 Exhibits 7 to 11 have been assigned to the expert reports that were

22 admitted by the Trial Chamber on the 13th of January.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 MR. WHITING: Thank you. If we could now publish 02077288,

25 please. Could we go to the last page of this document, please, on the --

1 only on the B/C/S. We can keep it on the first page for the English. And

2 could we zoom in on the bottom half of the page, please.

3 Q. Mr. Dzakula, are you able to recognise either of the signatures

4 on this page?

5 A. I can recognise the signature of Mr. Martic.

6 Q. And which one is it? Is it the one on the right or the left?

7 A. On the right-hand side where it says "minister."

8 Q. Can you say anything about the two stamps that appear on this

9 document?

10 A. This stamp is the Republic of Serb Krajina, the Ministry of the

11 Interior. This is a stamp of the ministry, and it looks like the kind of

12 stamp that existed at that time in the ministries. And I assume that the

13 other stamp is the stamp of the army of the Krajina of the Main Staff;

14 that's what it says there. But the other one, the stamp of the Ministry

15 of the Interior, is certainly the stamp of the Ministry of the Interior.

16 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I would move this document into

17 evidence, please.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document may be admitted into evidence as an

19 exhibit. May it be given an exhibit number, please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P12.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

22 MR. WHITING:

23 Q. Now, Mr. Dzakula, at the end of 1993, was there an election for

24 president in the RSK?

25 A. Yes. The election was held for the president of the RSK.

1 Q. And who ran in that election?

2 A. Mr. Martic ran. I think that Babic ran, too, but Mr. Martic won

3 the election.

4 Q. Did Mr. Martic in -- during the campaign for the election, did

5 Mr. Martic make speeches that you are aware of?

6 A. Well, yes, he went to different places and made election speeches.

7 He had an election campaign going on. He was addressing the citizens of

8 the RSK to support him in the election and to vote.

9 Q. And do you recall what positions he took in the campaign? What

10 did he say his positions were in that campaign?

11 A. Well, he talked about the state of the RSK, about the unification

12 of the Serb lands, that is to say, uniting with Republika Srpska and

13 Serbia. He often referred to Milosevic. He considered him the best and

14 the greatest Serb politician. He said that Serbs should not be afraid,

15 that they should vote in the election because there was a big struggle

16 going on at the time, whether it would be Martic or Babic that would win

17 the election. Both had their supporters. There were large-scale

18 campaigns, but he primarily talked about uniting all the Serb lands. He

19 also mentioned Karadzic and Milosevic.

20 Q. Did he talk at all about Croatia?

21 A. Well, that I cannot really recall, because at that time I was not

22 exactly moving about very much.

23 Q. Do you recall -- were you able to tell if the media from Belgrade

24 supported either of the candidates?

25 A. Well, the media from Serbia thought that Milan Martic had an

1 advantage, but a lot of people came, respectable people from Serbia,

2 poets, writers - that's what I heard - friends, who came to support Milan

3 Martic.

4 Q. I'm going to show you a clip of a speech by Milan Martic and ask

5 you to watch it carefully.

6 MR. WHITING: We have a transcript of this speech, which we'll

7 distribute with the assistance of the usher. We also -- the transcript

8 again will be played in a synchronised fashion on the clip.

9 And I believe to watch this clip we have to switch to -- we should

10 all be on computer evidence on the monitor.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MR. WHITING:

13 Q. Mr. Dzakula, were you able to watch and understand all of that

14 clip that was played?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is that speech or part of speech that we saw similar to the

17 speeches that you testified about that you heard and saw during the

18 campaign in 1993/1994?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'd move this clip into evidence, the

21 video clip and the transcript, as two separate exhibits, please.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the video clip be admitted into evidence as an

23 exhibit together with the transcript -- or the translation.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P13.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: And then the translation.

1 THE REGISTRAR: And the transcript will be Exhibit P14.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Exhibit?

3 THE REGISTRAR: P14.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

5 MR. WHITING:

6 Q. Mr. Dzakula, in that speech there's a reference to a Mr. Macura.

7 Do you know who that person was?

8 A. Well, he was the founder of the Serb Democratic Party in Knin, and

9 I think that he was the first minister of education in the government of

10 the SAO Krajina, the one when Babic was prime minister. And he was loyal

11 to Babic.

12 Q. In 1995, do you know if Milan Martic made any references to you

13 in any speeches?

14 A. Well, yes. When he was in Western Slavonia he said, among other

15 things, that he has reserved space for Dzakula and various Dzakulas, and

16 that he would put them into that room and never let them go. That was a

17 threat addressed to me and people who thought what I thought.

18 Q. Did you hear him say that yourself or did somebody tell you about

19 that?

20 A. I heard that myself because I was nearby when this speech was

21 being made. I was not in public; I was in a house and I watched this

22 speech, I heard it. And later on I discussed it with my friends.

23 Q. Where did that occur, that speech?

24 A. At Gavrinica in Pakrac. That is a settlement near Pakrac.

25 Q. And when in 1995, if you can recall, did that occur?

1 A. Well, sometime in 1995. I don't know if it was April or March.

2 Sometime before Flash. That's when they came to see us to encourage us.

3 And, among other things, Mr. Martic was talking about the highway, that it

4 was opened at the time. He was saying that it was useless, and he

5 attacked the fact that the highway was being opened. He said that we did

6 not need oil and gas, that we could till the land with oxen. And he said

7 that with our forces we would liberate all of Western Slavonia all the way

8 up to Virovitica and let them just start. We're ready, he said. That was

9 his speech of encouragement in this area to the people from that area.

10 They did not believe him.

11 After he left, I heard what people were saying. They laughed when

12 this tilling the land with oxen was referred to. Because at least two or

13 three years are needed for a cow to have a calf which would grow into an

14 ox, and there weren't any oxen around. Oil and gas were important.

15 And as for the war that he was praying for, people were precisely

16 afraid of that, that that is what would happen, and that is indeed what

17 happened later on.

18 Q. In that last answer you made a reference to the highway being

19 opened. Can you explain to the Chamber what you're referring to?

20 A. Well, in the area of Western Slavonia there is a highway, a road,

21 between Zagreb and Belgrade. It used to be called the highway of

22 fraternity and unity. It had been cut by the actions that took place

23 during the war in 1991. And about 20 or so kilometres were under the

24 control of the army of the authorities of the Serb Krajina.

25 And at the end of 1994 or 1995, he was open -- the road was open

1 for traffic, and it was used by Serbs and Croats and nobody was stopped

2 there. And then at gasoline stations, people were able to get gasoline.

3 And this was aimed at the normalisation of relations between Croatia and

4 the Republic of Serb Krajina. There were people who were opposed to

5 opening the highway, and there were other people who were in favour of it.

6 Martic was among the people who was not in favour of that. The then-prime

7 minister wanted the highway to be opened, and indeed he was the one who

8 opened it. And later on it was used.

9 Q. Mr. Dzakula, can you tell us what the Z-4 plan was, if you know?

10 A. Well, the Z-4 plan gave a high degree of autonomy to the area that

11 we called the RSK at the time. And different forms of that. The highest

12 degree of autonomy with its own currency and flag was Banija, Kordun,

13 Lika, and Dalmatia, and Western Slavonia was supposed to be integrated in

14 the area of the Republic of Croatia and Eastern Slavonia. I think that it

15 got a transition period of about five years for the process to develop.

16 Quite a high degree of authority was given, great powers, and it was said

17 then in the briefest possible terms that the Serbs in the area of SAO

18 Krajina would have the status of a state within a state. The plan was

19 written by international representatives, and it was represented by the

20 four ambassadors, I think, of France, the US, Russia, and I can't remember

21 who the fourth ambassador was who went to Zagreb and to Knin, advocating

22 the adoption of this plan so that it could be put into practice.

23 Q. When was that?

24 A. It was sometime in January 1995. It was mentioned a bit before

25 that, too, and it was offered to the Krajina authorities in January 1995.

1 I think it was January 1995, the end of January. And it was rejected.

2 Q. Who rejected it?

3 A. Well, at that time the president of the republic, Mr. Martic, was

4 being referred to. That -- he said that they could not receive the plan,

5 let alone look at it and discuss it. And there were different thoughts

6 whether the Krajina then -- some people were in favour of accepting it,

7 whereas from the very outset Mr. Martic was against even receiving the

8 plan, let alone adopting it.

9 Q. Mr. Dzakula, thank you very much. Those are all my questions.

10 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could this be a convenient moment then to take --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you --

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- our break?

14 MR. WHITING: I think so, and I think it's required.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Court will adjourn, and we'll reconvene at

16 quarter past 4.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, any cross-examination?

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21 Before I begin with my cross-examination, by your leave, Your

22 Honour, I would like to give a brief information to you regarding the

23 status of Defence at this point in time.

24 Unfortunately, the Defence finds itself in the situation where

25 lacks a lot of documents that it intended to introduce in the

1 cross-examination of this witness. There is a simple reason for this. So

2 far, the sum of 10 per cent, which was supposed to be paid into the

3 account of the Defence before trial, has not been paid. I told you that

4 we moved our office from Belgrade. A lot of our material, as I told you

5 yesterday, has been placed in storage and we have no access to that

6 material because we are unable to find ourselves an office here.

7 I'm telling you this, even though I'm fully aware that this is not

8 exactly the problem of the Trial Chamber; however, we are powerless to

9 solve it in another way. We wrote to the registry on the 5th of January.

10 We sent another information to them on the 12th of January, asking them to

11 provide funds for us on that date so that we can set up an office here.

12 Nothing has been done. It is uncertain whether it will be done at all.

13 We are currently in hotel rooms, and we have with us the amount of

14 material that we could store in hotel rooms.

15 I apologise for bringing this up. I feel very uncomfortable about

16 burdening you with these types of problems. However, it is questionable

17 whether we can continue working in this trial. This is happening without

18 any fault of ours. We did not contribute to this problem. We put in a

19 lot of effort to ensure that the trial starts on time and to prepare for

20 the cross-examination of this witness. I'm not referring just to the

21 current situation, but I'm also speaking about the future situation, the

22 future position of Defence in this trial.

23 That's all I have to say on this issue.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

25 Is there anybody in court here who represents the authority in the

1 Tribunal who is responsible for making payments to the Defence counsel?

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] May I continue, Your Honour?

5 May I continue, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you may just hold on, Mr. Milovancevic. We're

7 trying to get in touch with people who are responsible for this problem.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I just

9 wanted to ensure that we understood each other.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: We understood each other, Mr. Milovancevic. Thank

11 you very much.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to order that we take a short break for

14 about ten minutes while this problem is being investigated, and hopefully

15 the person responsible for solving the problem will be in court in ten

16 minutes' time to give us an explanation.

17 Court adjourned.

18 --- Break taken at 4.26 p.m.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 --- On resuming at 4.49 p.m.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. van de Vliet.

22 MR. van de Vliet: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. van de Vliet, the Chamber apologies for pulling

24 you out of your work at this time of the day when you must be very busy,

25 but we have a little hitch in the proceedings which we think you might be

1 able to explain.

2 The Defence is supposed to cross-examine the witness, and they

3 indicate to the Chamber that they are not fully prepared to do so because

4 they have not been able to set up an office. Their papers are still in

5 storage, and this is because they have not received their first tranche of

6 payment for the trial stage of this case. Are you able to give us an

7 explanation as to why they have not been paid?

8 MR. VAN DE VLIET: Your Honour, I'll do my best in this short time

9 frame that was given for me to prepare this.

10 As far as I know and I've understood for now, the 10 per cent up

11 front payment that we usually allow for Defence teams to start up their

12 offices and prepare for trial has gone through our office but is now in

13 the next office within the United Nations Tribunal system, which is the

14 office of finance. To discover the exact details on where that is about,

15 I will need more time, but it has been processed.

16 As for the reasons, I think as you have probably seen previously,

17 there has been an extensive debate with the Defence team about the level

18 of complexity and the debate was only --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt you, Mr. van de Vliet. We are

20 aware of the extensive debate that took place in the pre-trial stage. We

21 are now in the trial stage.

22 Just before I continue, you are head of the unit, are you?

23 MR. VAN DE VLIET: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, the debate that raged about finances related

25 to the pre-trial stage, the trial stage started on the 12th of December.

1 The Defence should have had their 10 per cent before the 12th or December

2 or just about that time to enable them to start the case. Now, you're

3 saying that the processing of this payment has left your office and is in

4 the finance section. When did it leave your office, sir?

5 MR. VAN DE VLIET: Your Honour, I really can't give that level of

6 detail at this moment. I really need to go back to the files and my

7 staff, who has been dealing with this, to get all the details on dates,

8 et cetera. I'm doing this on the top of my head.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. van de Vliet, you do appreciate that the

10 Defence needs to have a fair trial, that the trial must go as

11 expeditiously as possible, and that it is -- not only in the Defence

12 interests, but it is in the interests of justice itself and in the

13 interests of the public that the case proceed as expeditiously as

14 possible, with minimum of interference with the Defence in its conduct of

15 the trial.

16 MR. VAN DE VLIET: Absolutely, Your Honour. That's what my office

17 deals with on a daily basis.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: What I do not understand and the Chamber doesn't

19 understand is why on the 17th of January, 2006, the Defence has not been

20 paid their first tranche of the money when the trial started on the 12th

21 of December, 2005.

22 MR. VAN DE VLIET: Your Honour, could I just ask for a little bit

23 of time and get back to you tomorrow with all the details that you need

24 for this answer to be given properly and fully and completely, because I

25 don't have the actual detail here with me. What I remember on the top of

1 my head is that there was a debate on the complexity level also for the

2 trial stage, which had to be finished.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The debate on the complexity in the trial stage

4 should not be the reason for non-payment. This trial -- this case had

5 been put at level 2 for the pre-trial stage. There isn't any reason why

6 there -- the Defence could not have been given 10 per cent of the level 2

7 level of the case while you determine whether it should shift from that

8 level or not. And if it does shift from that level and it goes to

9 level 3, all you need to do is to give the remainder of that. And if it

10 does mean that it goes to level 1, then obviously you either call for the

11 balance or you pay less for the next tranche. That should not have been

12 the reason for the delay.

13 MR. VAN DE VLIET: I agree that there shouldn't have been a delay,

14 and I apologise for that. As to the specific reasons, I really need to

15 get back to my staff.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. van de Vliet. We -- this

17 Court is going to convene most probably tomorrow for you to come and give

18 us your explanations, but I would like you to remain in court in case we

19 don't have to convene tomorrow so that you know exactly when we convene,

20 because I'm going to ask the Defence a few questions to determine how this

21 case is going to proceed from now on. And depending on that, I would like

22 you to give that explanation at the next session of the case, okay?

23 Please remain in court here while we ask the Defence. Thank you very

24 much.

25 Mr. Milovancevic, if you can answer me very briefly. Is the

1 Defence in a position to proceed with the case right now or does the

2 Defence need time to prepare?

3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we believe that at

4 this point in time we can continue with work. The witness has been here

5 for several days now, and we can continue the trial. We will do our best

6 to represent the accused, Mr. Martic, in the best possible way. We can

7 continue with the trial today, and that is my answer to the first part of

8 your question.

9 As for what is going to happen later on, that depends on how the

10 developments evolve.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic. I would like you to

12 be very brief on your answer to my question. I do understand about the

13 future, and I'm not talking about the future. What I do want to know, and

14 I think it is in the interests of justice that the Chamber must know this,

15 that you feel absolutely confident that with -- right now you are in a

16 position to proceed and cross-examine the witness, you've got all the

17 material that you need to cross-examine this witness, because the Chamber

18 is concerned that justice not only be done but it must be seen to be done.

19 Are you able to proceed now, yes or no?

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on behalf of the

21 Defence team I would like to thank the Trial Chamber for putting this

22 question to us. At this point in time, the Defence adapted all of its

23 activities to the current situation. And in our view, we believe we can

24 continue with this witness.

25 Let me give you another brief explanation, with your permission.

1 The Defence intended to tender into evidence some other documents which we

2 do not have currently, but we hope that we will be able to tender them

3 later on. That should not, however, affect the quality of our

4 cross-examination. This means that we are doing the best we can in order

5 not to interrupt the trial.

6 That's what I wanted to say to you. Thank you.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You must understand one thing, Mr. Milovancevic.

8 The Chamber does not want the Defence to come back later and say: Had we

9 been given an opportunity to prepare and prepare properly, we would have

10 conducted our trial differently and now we have been prejudiced by that.

11 And it is this prejudice that this Chamber is concerned to avoid. And

12 therefore, the Chamber is not absolutely happy or not absolutely satisfied

13 with your answer which says: Yes, but, because this is the effect of your

14 answer. Yes, we are able to proceed, but we are inconvenienced because we

15 don't have material to tender into evidence. We may tender it later.

16 That's what I asked you to answer me very briefly and just a yes or no:

17 Are you in a position to proceed with this trial, or are you not? And if

18 you are not, and if you have any doubt that you are not in a position to

19 proceed because you do not have all your documents, you must say so and

20 this Chamber will give you an opportunity to get ready.

21 Just please answer the Chamber definitively: Are you able to

22 proceed?

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 Now, Mr. van de Vliet, you are excused from court. We are going

1 to proceed. Will you be here, please, tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in

2 this same court to give your explanation.

3 MR. VAN DE VLIET: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You are excused.

5 You may call the witness.

6 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I could just raise one issue,

7 please.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.

9 MR. WHITING: First, I take the answer of counsel's -- I take -- I

10 understand counsel's answers to mean that he will be able to start and

11 complete the cross-examination without interruption, but that's obviously

12 for the Court to determine. But the more important point that I wanted to

13 raise was with respect to the next witness, and this is only because we

14 need to prepare and be ready. So I'm just wondering if we can get some

15 guidance about whether we -- it is still the intention to proceed with the

16 next witness after this witness is completed or whether there's going to

17 be a delay or a problem there.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting, I think we heard what Mr. Milovancevic

19 said. He says he doesn't know about the future, and of course he will not

20 know about the future until OLAD has determined his future and how soon

21 OLAD is going to determine his future, only OLAD knows. I do not think it

22 would be fair to ask Mr. Milovancevic to give an indication about the next

23 witness. Mr. Milovancevic has indicated that he is in a position to

24 cross-examine this witness now. We shall take it one step at a time. And

25 if he's able to carry on with the next, he will do so; if he's not, he

1 will raise the point again and we decide it at that point.

2 MR. WHITING: That's fine. Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

4 Can the witness please take the stand.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, you may proceed.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Milovancevic:

9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dzakula.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. You started testifying in this court about 1990, the events of

12 that year, and this is what the Defence will be referring to initially.

13 Did you explain here in the courtroom that in 1990 in Croatia the

14 first multi-party elections were held?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you please tell us what was the full name of the then-Croatia

17 at the time when these elections were held?

18 A. Socialist Republic of Croatia.

19 Q. All right. Can you tell us where these -- this Socialist Republic

20 of Croatia was located in 1990.

21 A. In Yugoslavia.

22 Q. I would like to ask you to give us the full name of the country in

23 which the Socialist Republic of Croatia was located.

24 A. The Socialist Republic of Croatia was located in the Socialist

25 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as one of its federal units.

1 Q. Mr. Dzakula, is it true that the Socialist Republic of Croatia was

2 one of six federal units in the former Yugoslavia?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Can you tell us, what was the inception date of the borders of the

5 Socialist Republic of Croatia, the borders that existed when these first

6 multi-party elections were held?

7 A. These borders were set up during Avnoj conference.

8 Q. All right. Can you confirm that these borders of Croatia as one

9 of the federal units date back to 1945, the end of World War II. Can you

10 confirm that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you please tell us, in accordance with the constitution of

13 Croatia at the time when the multi-party elections were held in Croatia,

14 how many nations lived in Croatia?

15 A. There were Croats, as a nation; Serbs; Slovenes; Macedonians;

16 Montenegrins.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzakula. My question was not specific enough. Can

18 you please tell us out of these nations how many had the status of a

19 nation according to the constitution of the Socialist Republic of Croatia.

20 A. The ones I mentioned.

21 Q. All right. So the Croats were a nation?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were Serbs a nation in accordance with the constitution of

24 Croatia?

25 A. Yes. Serbs were a nation as well.

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzakula.

2 You told us that at the time when the first multi-party elections

3 were held you were a member of a political party. Would you tell us what

4 party?

5 A. Up to several months before the elections I was a member of the

6 League of Communists of Croatia, and sometime just before the war broke

7 out I stopped being a member. However, in the elections I voted for the

8 League of Communists of Croatia.

9 Q. All right. In order for the Trial Chamber and everybody else,

10 including our colleagues from the Prosecution, to be able to follow, when

11 you use the term "first multi-party elections," can you please tell us,

12 prior to these elections how many parties, political parties, existed in

13 the former Yugoslavia?

14 A. There was just one political party, the League of Communists.

15 Q. All right. So when the first multi-party elections were held in

16 1990 in Croatia, you were a member of the League of Communists of Croatia.

17 Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The League of Communists of Croatia, did it participate in those

20 first multi-party elections under that name or did it have another name?

21 A. It had a new name. It was called the League of Communists of

22 Croatia, the Party of Democratic Changes.

23 A. Does this mean that following the political developments in

24 Croatia and in other republics, the League of Communists of Croatia

25 changed its political image?

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. Can you please tell us who was the chairman, who was the head of

3 the League of Communists of Croatia Party For Democratic Changes?

4 A. Ivica Racan was president or chairman.

5 Q. Can you please tell us what was the nationality of Mr. Ivica

6 Racan?

7 A. He was and still is a Croat.

8 Q. You told us that you, along with a large number of Serbs, voted

9 for the Party of Democratic Changes, the party of Mr. Racan?

10 A. Yes. In the entire territory of Croatia, except for four or five

11 municipalities, Serbs in the elections voted for the League of Communists

12 of Croatia Party for Democratic Changes.

13 Q. All right. So can it be said that the Serbs in Croatia as a

14 nation voting in the elections in the majority voted for the party led by

15 Ivica Racan who was a Croat?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Dzakula.

18 Since these were the first multi-party elections, can you tell us,

19 if you remember, how many other political parties took part in the

20 elections. Can you give us their names?

21 A. I can enumerate some, but maybe not others.

22 Q. That's all right.

23 A. The largest and the most important, the one that won was the

24 Croatian Democratic Unity, led by Franjo Tudjman. Then there was the

25 Croatian Party of Rights, Croatian Democratic Union, HSS --

1 Q. Can you tell us what it stands for, HSS?

2 A. Croatian Peasants Party, then there was the Croatian People's

3 Party, then there was Islamic Democratic Forum, then Islamic Democratic

4 Party.

5 Q. All right. That's quite enough, Mr. Dzakula. In addition to

6 these parties, did the first -- did the Serbian Democratic Party take part

7 in these first multi-party elections?

8 A. Yes. The Serbian Democratic Party, which had been established in

9 Knin.

10 Q. You told us that the largest and most influential party was the

11 Croatian Democratic Union led by Mr. Franjo Tudjman. Can you tell us when

12 this party was founded?

13 A. I think that this political party was founded in early 1990. It

14 could have been February of 1990.

15 Q. Mr. Dzakula, am I right when I say that the HDZ was founded on

16 the 26th or 28th February of 1989, whereas its first assembly as a

17 political party was held in 1990 in the Lisinski Hall?

18 A. I believe that you're right.

19 Q. All right. Do you remember that first founding assembly of the

20 HDZ which was held in the Lisinski Hall on the 24th or 26th of February,

21 1990? Do you remember any of the events at the time?

22 A. Yes, I think I do.

23 Q. Did Mr. Tudjman --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Of all those parties whose names have been

25 given, which one is the HDZ? We've had full names and suddenly we

1 get "HDZ," and I don't know which of those parties is HDZ.

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.

3 Croatian Democratic Union is known under the abbreviation "HDZ." This is

4 an acronym in Croatian, in our language. Otherwise in English it's known

5 as Croatian Democratic Union, CDU.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Let us go back to the question I put to you.

9 Do you remember the sentence uttered by Mr. Tudjman in the centre

10 of Zagreb in late February 1990, prior to these multi-party elections,

11 where he says - I'm going to quote his words - "The independent state of

12 Croatia is not only a fascist creation and historical crime but also an

13 expression of the historic orientation or attendances of Croatian people"?

14 A. Yes, I remember him saying that.

15 Q. Following this founding assembly of HDZ, were the first

16 multi-party elections held in Croatia?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You said something about the election campaign which was reported

19 in the media. Can you please tell us what was the main slogan of this

20 election campaign led by the HDZ prior to the elections?

21 A. Well, they started displaying new flags. In the public it was

22 known as the checker-board flag. They were chanting various nationalistic

23 slogans. They said that Croats were subjugated by the Serbs in

24 Yugoslavia, which was a prison for other nations, and that Serbs dominated

25 the political scene and that that would have to change, that Croatia would

1 become a national state of Croatian nation, and so on.

2 Q. All right. Did they mention that Serbs held key offices in the

3 state administration, police, military, and so on? You mentioned

4 something along those lines.

5 A. Yes. They were saying such things, that the Serbs predominantly

6 held the most important offices in the Republic of Croatia.

7 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Dzakula, that precisely at that time or right

8 after that Stjepan Mesic was president of the Presidency of the SFRY, that

9 is to say, the former Yugoslavia, the head of state?

10 A. Yes. Mr. Mesic --

11 Q. That will do, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Dzakula. Let's not take

12 up the time of the Court.

13 Is it correct that the prime minister of the Yugoslav government

14 at the time of these elections was a Croat, Ante Markovic?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. Is it correct that the minister of foreign affairs of Yugoslavia

17 was a Croat, Budimir Loncar?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Is it correct that the minister of defence of Yugoslavia was

20 Veljko Kadijevic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. They say that one of his parents is a Croat?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Is it correct that the commander of the air force, an

25 anti-aircraft defence of Yugoslavia was also a Croat, Anton Tus, who after

1 that crossed over to Tudjman's side?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry. Your Honour, I'm sorry to -- I apologise

4 for the interruption. I'm just wondering with this stream of questions

5 whether we could have some indication of what time period we're talking

6 about.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think at the beginning of his cross-examination

8 Mr. Milovancevic indicated that he's dealing initially with the period

9 1990.

10 Is that correct, Mr. Milovancevic?

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I was

12 putting these questions to the witness because I was talking about the

13 time of the first multi-party elections, that is to say, April/May 1990.

14 If that was not clear, I apologise to my learned friend.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you happy, Mr. Whiting?

16 MR. WHITING: I'm grateful. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Dzakula, is it correct that the head of state security of

20 Yugoslavia was Zdravko Mustac, also a Croat?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. Is it correct that the key people in the Yugoslav navy were

23 Croats?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Admirals and generals?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it correct that at that time the commander of the 5th Military

3 District was Konrad Kolsek, a Slovene?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So that is the Zagreb Military District?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Dzakula, that the commander of the Belgrade

8 Military District was General Spirkovski, Aleksandar Spirkovski, a

9 Macedonian?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is it correct that the assistant federal minister of defence

12 of -- Mr. Kadijevic, that is, was also a Croat, Josip Greguric?

13 A. I don't remember that.

14 Q. Do you know whether Josip Greguric was a Croat, an ethnic Croat?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. I'll put another question to you in relation to these

17 key offices.

18 What about the deputy federal secretary of defence, that is to

19 say, the deputy defence minister? Was it Stane Brovet, a Slovene?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. So can it be said that at the time when the Serbs in Croatia were

22 accused of holding all key positions in the police, the army, the

23 government, et cetera, the Yugoslav authorities were run by Croats from

24 Croatia or were Croats by birth?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You said that the election campaign was reported on in the

2 Belgrade media, the Zagreb media, and all others. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it correct that everybody followed that campaign from the point

5 of view of their own assessments, that is to say, Croats probably

6 celebrated it and Serbs probably challenged it. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. As a man with a great deal of experience born in the former

9 Yugoslavia, can you confirm that as a rule young men from poor families

10 joined the army and the police for the most part? Do you think that this

11 is a possible assessment?

12 A. Are you talking about the military or the military academy?

13 Q. I'm talking about the army. I'm talking about training for

14 officers.

15 A. Mostly people from poorer families went to train as officers

16 because it was free of charge.

17 Q. Thank you. Can you say whether it is possible to qualify the HDZ

18 election campaign as a nationalist one when viewed from the point of view

19 of the Serbs?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. This election campaign, could it have realistically caused unrest

22 or anxiety among the Serbs, and did it indeed lead to reactions on the

23 part of the Serbs?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. I am going to put a question to you, and the Trial

1 Chamber will judge whether it's acceptable.

2 Have you ever heard of any such case in history, for example, when

3 Jews were considered to be a factor of unrest and that they should be

4 eliminated? I'm talking about Hitler's Germany.

5 A. Yes, I've heard about that.

6 Q. Do you know what happened to these Jews, Mr. Dzakula?

7 MR. WHITING: Yeah, I'm going to object to this line of

8 questioning. I don't think it's appropriate.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, do you have any response to that

10 objection?

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

12 I'm just trying to make a comparison of the political climates in

13 two completely different periods of time. For example, the climate in the

14 time of fascist Germany and the climate that was being created in a

15 completely different time, and I'm trying to draw a parallel. What does

16 that mean, when people belonging to one ethnic group or one religion or

17 one race are being considered as if they had occupied everything and are

18 holding all key positions. I have a very concrete context in mind when

19 speaking of this.

20 I do not intend to put provocative questions. My objective is to

21 understand the positions involved.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite clear of the relevance of the

23 question. I'm not quite clear how it will make you understand the

24 positions involved --

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank

1 you, Your Honour. I'm going to put another question. May I proceed?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed. Thank you very much for -- are

3 you now withdrawing that other question? Let's just get that clear.

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I have withdrawn the question.

5 Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Dzakula, you explained that at these first multi-party

9 elections which were held in April and May 1990, as a Serb in Croatia you

10 voted for the Party of Democratic Change, the former communist party that

11 was led by a Croat, Ivica Racan?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You also explained to us that many Serbs had voted for that party?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Can you tell us briefly why Serbs voted for that party. Do you

16 see a reason for that?

17 A. Well, throughout their history in Croatia, Serbs were always

18 together with Croats in the HSS in the kingdom of the former Yugoslavia.

19 They were anti-fascists during the Second World War, and they thought that

20 at that point in time during these first multi-party elections the party

21 of SKH, SDP would be the one that most lent itself for the building of a

22 common future between Serbs and Croats in Croatia.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: Could counsel please pause

24 before putting his new questions.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. What about Mr. Racan's party, the one that you voted for and that

2 others voted for. Do you remember the vote that they won?

3 A. I do not recall.

4 Q. Can you make a comparison with the number of votes that was won by

5 the Serb Democratic Party, the SDS, at those same elections when looked at

6 Ivica Racan's Party of Democratic Change?

7 A. The SDS won five seats, so there were five Serb MPs, and I think

8 that in the SDP there were eight Serbs, perhaps even more than that. I

9 don't know how many there were in other parties.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt, please.

11 Mr. Milovancevic, you speak the same language as the witness, and

12 there is interpretation taking place in between. Now, when you speak

13 fast, the interpreter doesn't get the opportunity to interpret and you

14 overlap with the witness and you are going to be missed. Now, I ask you

15 to please slow down so that you give the interpreter an opportunity to

16 interpret and the witness get an opportunity to answer. Okay? Thank you.

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I do beg your pardon, Your

18 Honours, and I do apologise to the interpreters as well. I am going to

19 bear that in mind now.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Dzakula, is it correct that as a witness before this Court you

23 stated that the Serbs in Croatia who at these first multi-party elections

24 in Croatia voted for the Party of Democratic Change were disappointed?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You said that that party did not bear their vital interests in

2 mind. Is that correct?

3 A. That's exactly what I said.

4 Q. Can you repeat very briefly for us what the vital interests of the

5 Serbs were at that point in time, in 1990, mid-1990, and immediately after

6 that in the time of the multi-party elections in Croatia.

7 A. Well, first and foremost the Serbs expected that they would go on

8 living in a common state, that is to say, the Socialist Federal Republic

9 of Yugoslavia; that the Republic of Croatia would not secede from

10 Yugoslavia; the Serbs expected that they would continue to be a

11 constituent people; that the HDZ would not proclaim them a national

12 minority by the new constitution; the Serbs expected that they would be

13 protected rather than being dismissed from work just on account of the

14 fact that they were Serbs. They were afraid and concerned because of the

15 changes in the symbols of the Croatian state, the checker-board flag,

16 which due to its legacy of the past caused a great deal of anxiety. And

17 they thought that the Party of Democratic Change would offer some

18 protection at the moment when the HDZ did not bear this in mind

19 sufficiently.

20 Q. So the Croatian Democratic Union, the party of Mr. Tudjman, at

21 that time was it a majority party, and are you saying that it did not bear

22 in mind these vital Serb interests?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So this party, the HDZ, the Croatian Democratic Union and the

25 parties that supported it in its policy, did it propose a change in the

1 constitution of Croatia at the time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did the Croat Democratic Union propose and initiate a procedure

4 for changing the constitution of Croatia in the following way: Serbs,

5 according to this new constitution, would stop being a people and would be

6 reduced to the status of a national minority?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Does it mean that once a people are a

9 national minority they stop being people? That proposition put to the

10 witness is --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. The proposition put to the witness

13 is: "Serbs, according to this new constitution, would stop being a people

14 and would be reduced to the status of a national minority."

15 Minorities are not -- national minorities are not people. Is that

16 the insinuation? And if they are not people, what are they? Otherwise I

17 don't understand the question.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] You understood me well, Your

19 Honour. In the then-constitution of Yugoslavia, the state that was called

20 the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, there were six republics,

21 according to the constitution. And every republic, say Macedonia, was

22 predominantly the Republic of the Macedonian people; Slovenia was the

23 Republic of the Slovenian people and of the other peoples living in it.

24 So those peoples who, according to the constitution, were denoted as

25 peoples. So it was only Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Macedonians, Bosnians

1 that were peoples. Did I omit someone -- oh, yes, Montenegrins, sorry.

2 Whereas all other ethnicities had the status of national minorities.

3 Yugoslavia was well-known as a multi-ethnic community with over 20

4 national minorities living in it, but it is only the peoples who could

5 have constituent significance. They were the only ones who could have a

6 state.

7 When saying "national minority," what is denoted is the members of

8 a people who are a minority in Yugoslavia who have their own mother states

9 outside the borders of Yugoslavia and who, because of that, on the

10 territory of Yugoslavia have the status of a national minority but enjoy

11 all human rights. That was a solution that was ensured by the Yugoslav

12 constitution, the institution of Croatia, and the constitutions of all the

13 other socialist republics, which, as federal units, comprised the

14 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I perhaps take a simplistic view of the sentence.

16 You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] With your permission, Your

18 Honour, just one more sentence in addition to what I've already said in

19 connection with your question.

20 From a constitutional and legal point of view, it is only peoples

21 who could express their views on their status within the Yugoslav

22 community. They had legal standing. It's a complicated issue because

23 only peoples could have republics as their own states. National

24 minorities could not have that because national minorities have their own

25 mother states. That's the explanation I was trying to provide. It's very

1 complicated.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic. Maybe you

3 might try to provide that explanation via questions to the witness rather

4 than testifying from the bar.

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. At the time when amendments to the Croatian constitution were

7 being proposed, was there a deterioration in the status of the members of

8 Serb people in Croatia in everyday life, in schools, health care, state

9 administration, and so on?

10 A. Yeah, there were certain disruptions.

11 Q. Did they start dismissing people from their jobs?

12 A. Yes. People were dismissed from work in the Croatian television

13 company, various publishing companies. People were sent into early

14 retirement within the police administration. The same applies to health

15 care, education.

16 Q. These dismissals, were they based on ethnicities?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us who these people were who were dismissed at the

19 time? You are talking about a phenomenon that existed then.

20 A. It was the Serbs who were dismissed.

21 Q. Could it be said that the Serbs were dismissed solely on the basis

22 of their nationality? In other words, they were dismissed because they

23 were Serbs?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. You told us about the symbols used by the Croatian Democratic

1 Union in their election campaign and later in political life. You said

2 that this caused tension and anxiety among Serbs. Can you tell us more

3 about this?

4 A. At the time the Serbs were mostly upset by the checker-board coat

5 of arms. The reason they were upset by this is that this symbol was used

6 by the Independent State of Croatia between 1940 and 1945, which is a

7 period of time when many crimes were committed against the Serb

8 population. And this symbol brought back the memory of those events.

9 Q. I mentioned to you the speech given by Mr. Tudjman when he

10 mentioned the Independent State of Croatia. Can you tell us what this

11 state was, the Independent State of Croatia?

12 A. The Independent State of Croatia was the ally of Hitler's Germany

13 and Mussolini's Italy during the Second World War. It fought alongside

14 with them against the countries such as Great Britain, Russia, France, and

15 so on.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could I have the assistance of

17 the usher, please. Could we see Exhibit P3, which was shown to us

18 yesterday. I hope you still have it. If not, I have it here.

19 Q. Could you please show us the central portion where your finger is,

20 this blue rectangle. All right. Thank you.

21 Mr. Dzakula, in this white portion of the map in front of you --

22 yes, that's a perfect view. There in a small rectangle, what can we see

23 there?

24 A. The former Yugoslavia.

25 Q. Yes. That's right. In that square we can see the former

1 Yugoslavia. What is shown in this dark colour? Is it the territory of

2 the Socialist Republic of Croatia?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. All right. Could you move it to the left so we can see the green

5 area, and could you please put it in the centre. Can you please read the

6 heading that we can see in the upper right corner above that map.

7 A. I'm sorry. I need my glasses. I need to bring it closer. "The

8 map of Croatian genocide committed against the Serbs in the territory of

9 the Independent State of Croatia between 1941 and 1945, committed by

10 Ustasha forces."

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzakula.

12 So this green colour on the map, does it show the territory of the

13 Independent State of Croatia, mentioned by Mr. Tudjman in his speech of

14 1990?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Does this map show the territory of Croatia shown in the dark

17 colour plus the territory of neighbouring Bosnia and Croatia [as

18 interpreted]?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Above the map we can see -- or rather, below the map we can see a

21 square, framed square.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. So the large green area that we see on the map is

24 shown in this square as the territory which existed within the former

25 Yugoslavia. Is that right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it true that the Independent State of Croatia comprised the

3 territory of the Socialist Republic of Croatia and the territory of the

4 Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Can you please read the key, the map key, that we can see right

7 below that map. What does it say in the first sentence?

8 A. "Localities where the Ustasha genocide was committed."

9 Q. What is denoted with black dots?

10 A. The graves into which the Serbs were thrown.

11 Q. Can you show us where this can be seen on the map. There are

12 numerous such black dots. Is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And above that, above the key, we can see a red triangle. What

15 does that denote?

16 A. Wells into which Serbs were thrown.

17 Q. Can you show us where these red triangles are? They are all over,

18 aren't they?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see a larger view so

21 that it takes up the entire screen. And could you please centre it.

22 Thank you.

23 Q. In accordance with the map key, Mr. Dzakula, is it true that all

24 of these dots that we can see on the map are locations where crimes were

25 committed, meaning that they are showing either the pits or the wells into

1 which the Serbs were thrown?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you please tell us again during what period of time this

4 happened and where.

5 A. It took place between 1941 and 1945 during the existence of the

6 Independent State of Croatia.

7 Q. Who was in power at the time in the Independent State of Croatia?

8 A. Ante Pavelic.

9 Q. What were the members of his party called?

10 A. Ustashas.

11 Q. Just one more question in relation to this map. On the right of

12 the map there is a text. I will read it out to you because the letters

13 are very small. The text reads -- does it read as follows: "German

14 general, Pilne Penetiary [phoen], in the Independent State of Croatia,

15 Edmund Gleise von Horstenau, a historian by profession, writes that

16 Ustashas claim that million of Orthodox Serbs were killed. Their throats

17 were slashed, including women, children, and the elderly, and that

18 according to him this represents an exaggerated boasting, because based on

19 the reports received, the number of those whose throats were slashed

20 amounted to three-quarters of a million, that is to say, 750.000 people."

21 Is that what this text reads?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Are you familiar with these facts? You're a Serb from Croatia.

24 You lived in Yugoslavia, just like all of us.

25 A. These facts were mentioned during the former Yugoslavia.

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 Q. Did anything bad happen to your family in World War II?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Bad in the sense of what we just read out?

7 A. Yes. Both villages -- or rather, residents of both villages, the

8 majority of them, were killed. Ustashas threw the residents into wells.

9 In one village, Kusonje, they set on fire the entire church full of

10 people. Women and children were sent to Germany to labour camps, whereas

11 my grandparents were sent to concentration camp in Jasenovac, Sisak and

12 Stara Gradiska. This is where my parents also stayed.

13 Q. Can you tell us when was that?

14 A. 1942, August of 1942.

15 Q. All right. Can you please tell us in which state the majority of

16 your relatives perished?

17 A. Independent State of Croatia.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure -- it looks like we've gone for

19 one and a half hours. Are we still okay in terms of our tapes, or shall

20 we take a break?

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

23 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I wonder if I could take advantage of

24 this moment to ask for a redaction just out of an abundance of caution,

25 given the history with this witness. I would ask if we could redact

1 page 62, lines 8 and 9, which potentially identify with a little too much

2 specificity I think where the witness and his family is from.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any comment, Mr. Milovancevic?

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that we mentioned

5 only the area. And I don't think that redacting the text would change the

6 essence. However, if the Chamber believes that this is necessary, we

7 certainly won't object. I beg your pardon, if you believe that I went

8 outside of what was the permitted area of questioning.

9 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I might, just clarify on this issue

10 because I think it might be -- this is the first time this has arisen.

11 Just to be clear, when we're asking for a redaction, we're not

12 asking that it be redacted from the transcript or from the official

13 record, it's just that it not be broadcast to the public, and that is all

14 we're asking. And to be clear, I'm not suggesting any criticism of

15 Defence counsel. It arose in the natural course of questioning, and I'm

16 just asking out of an abundance of caution that we redact it.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sure you would agree with that,

18 Mr. Milovancevic? Okay.

19 The redaction will then be made of -- the redaction of the

20 question and the answer.

21 But while we are on this pause, can I ask from the Prosecution:

22 Are we likely to get an English translation of this map?

23 MR. WHITING: Yes. That can be provided, Your Honour. We have

24 that -- the version we have is, frankly, a little confusing, and I'd like

25 to just make it a little more clear in terms of -- because it's difficult

1 with the map where the translation pertains to, but that can be provided

2 and we could provide that tomorrow, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sure the Bench will appreciate that.

4 MR. WHITING: Of course.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

6 You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. We left off when we were discussing the plight of the Serbs in the

9 Independent State of Croatia. Can you please confirm that the majority of

10 those who perished in the Independent State of Croatia were Serbs. Can

11 you confirm that?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. These people, did they die solely because of their ethnicity or

14 was there any other reason?

15 A. Solely because of their ethnicity.

16 Q. We already said that the Independent State of Croatia was a

17 quisling creation. It was a state that supported Hitler. We also

18 mentioned General Horstenau as Hitler's emissary in that state.

19 The map that we were discussing contains a number of facts that

20 you confirmed to us. Mr. Dzakula, can you please tell us: Where did

21 these victims end up? You told us that they perished because they were

22 Serbs, and can you tell us where?

23 A. In the pits, wells. They were either burned alive in churches or

24 their throats were slashed in churches.

25 Q. Is that the Independent State of Croatia that Croatian General

1 Franjo Tudjman, the founder and the head of the Croatian Democratic Union,

2 spoke about in his speech in 1990 at the founding assembly of the party?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Therefore, Mr. Tudjman, as the person who said that this

5 Independent State of Croatia is an expression of historic tendencies of

6 the Croatian nation, did he also utter another sentence, and could you

7 remind us of it?

8 A. He said that he was proud of the fact that his wife was neither a

9 Serb nor a Jew.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzakula.

11 In your testimony yesterday you mentioned General Spegelj. Can

12 you tell us where he was a general, in which army, and what was his ethnic

13 background?

14 A. He was a general in the JNA, an ethnic Croat.

15 Q. Was he the commander of the Zagreb Military District?

16 A. Yes, up until the war.

17 Q. I apologise to the Trial Chamber. I am putting this question this

18 way, but it is a generally known fact, so I have not made a mistake,

19 Mr. Dzakula. Is that right?

20 A. You haven't made a mistake.

21 Q. Is it true that you saw a film about General Spegelj that my

22 colleague from the Prosecution questioned you about yesterday or have you

23 heard of that film?

24 A. I watched the film on television.

25 Q. Can you tell us when this film was shown, the one with General

1 Spegelj?

2 A. I think it was in the beginning of 1991. Yes, it was in January,

3 the second half of January 1991, as far as I can remember.

4 Q. Do you remember the content of that film? Why was it interesting?

5 Can you explain that to the Trial Chamber and to us.

6 A. Well, this film was shown and it showed how Mr. Spegelj was

7 talking to some people and agreeing with them to kill some officers, and

8 also he talked about arming.

9 Q. Can you tell us what officers -- what officers would be killed?

10 What is Mr. Spegelj saying in that film?

11 A. The killing of officers of the Yugoslav People's Army.

12 Q. So that's the end of 1990 and beginning of 1991. Is that right?

13 And the officer speaking is one of the top-ranking officer of the former

14 Yugoslav People's Army, and he is talking about killing the officers of

15 that same army. Is that correct?

16 A. That's what the film shows.

17 Q. Can you tell us who he was talking to, according to this film,

18 judging by the film? Do you remember?

19 A. Believe me, I can't remember now exactly who the man was that he

20 talked to.

21 Q. I don't insist on the details. It's been a long time.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I will try to put some questions to you, or rather, sentences that

24 were uttered in that film. So could you please tell me whether they were

25 actually said.

1 Does Mr. Spegelj say on that occasion: "No, there is nothing for

2 the army here. It will be completely destroyed. Five men cover each and

3 every officer. We have to get rid of them physically."

4 Somebody comes to the door. The door opens. Bang, bang, bang.

5 Walks downstairs to another.

6 "They should be killed on their own doorstep."

7 Do you remember that kind of text from that film, Mr. Dzakula?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Do you remember the sentence uttered by Mr. Spegelj: "Not a

10 single officer will be permitted to reach the barracks, not a single one"?

11 A. I remember that.

12 Q. Do you remember the following sentence: "The instruction is:

13 Just take a pistol and right into the stomach"?

14 A. I remember that.

15 Q. "That's going to be a war" -- sorry.

16 Do you remember the sentence: "That's going to be a war, it's

17 going to be a civil war. There will be no mercy for anyone, not even for

18 women, children. Simply shells into family homes"?

19 A. I remember.

20 Q. On that occasion, was Mr. Spegelj shown on this film as a man

21 saying: "We are going to solve the problem of Knin by a massacre"?

22 A. I remember.

23 Q. Is there any mention in the film of the period of time or of the

24 year when the film was made?

25 A. The end of 1990.

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzakula.

2 Can you tell us who are these officers and soldiers who

3 Mr. Spegelj is trying to kill this way?

4 A. Officers and soldiers of the Yugoslav People's Army.

5 Q. So at that time -- or rather, at that time was Croatia as a

6 socialist republic part of the Yugoslav federation then?

7 A. It was no longer socialist, but it was part of --

8 Q. The Yugoslav --

9 A. Of Yugoslavia, yes.

10 Q. The Yugoslav People's Army, did it exist as the federal armed

11 force in every republic of Yugoslavia?

12 A. Yes, it did.

13 Q. Was the JNA the regular army, a regular armed force?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did people of all ethnic backgrounds do their military service in

16 the JNA?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us whether you know the reason why Mr. Spegelj was

19 planning this? In what period did this happen, the end of 1990?

20 A. The end of 1990/the beginning of 1991.

21 Q. I'd like to remind you of this. We were talking about the

22 election campaign in the first half of 1990, the first multi-party

23 elections in 1990, in May. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And who won in that election?

1 A. The Croatian Democratic Union.

2 Q. What was the basic political objective of this Croatian Democratic

3 Union? What was their political objective?

4 A. The political objective was an independent Croatian state.

5 Q. Was the objective to have Croatia secede from Yugoslavia?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was that the reason why Mr. Spegelj was saying this, how officers

8 of the federal army should be treated?

9 A. That can be taken as a conclusion, but I don't know what the

10 reason was.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I can withdraw the question.

12 Perhaps --

13 MR. WHITING: Well, the question's been withdrawn. It's very

14 difficult with the pace to intervene.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Once again, Mr. Milovancevic, please try to slow

16 down. Once again, I remind you that there's interpretation and you've got

17 to give each other an opportunity to say and complete your sentences. If

18 you will just bear that in mind, please.

19 Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting.

20 You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll

22 bear that in mind. I've already said that.

23 Is it time to take a break, Your Honour?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: According to what I was told --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. In another five minutes, I

2 think, unless you're saying this would be a convenient time for you.

3 Okay. It's going to be at --

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I agree. I agree, Your Honour.

5 I accept that.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. It will be then a 30-minute break. We'll

7 come back at 25 to.

8 Court adjourned.

9 --- Recess taken at 6.06 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 6.36 p.m.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. We stopped when discussing the film about General Spegelj. In

14 addition to what we've been saying until now, was there any mention of

15 weapons in that film, Mr. Dzakula?

16 A. I think that some weapons were mentioned.

17 Q. Did the film deal with the illegal import of weapons into Croatia?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was there any mention of the quantity of weapons concerned?

20 A. I don't mention that -- I don't remember that.

21 Q. Can you tell us whether after this film was shown any court

22 proceedings were instituted against the persons mentioned in that film and

23 that had to do with the illegal import of weapons into Croatia?

24 A. Yes. Court proceedings were instituted in Zagreb, I think.

25 Q. Were these proceedings initiated in the first half of 1991 and

1 were they brought to an end? Do you know that maybe?

2 A. I think that the proceedings were instituted, but I don't remember

3 that they were finished. I think they were released.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzakula.

5 ZNG, is that an abbreviation that means something to you?

6 A. Yes. This is an abbreviation which fully means the National

7 Guards Corps, Nacionali Zbor Garde [as interpreted].

8 Q. Can you tell us what this is, the National Guards Corps?

9 A. Well, we can say that that is the embryo of the new Croatian army,

10 a formation that was established by Franjo Tudjman.

11 Q. Can you tell us when this new formation became well-known, when

12 people heard of it?

13 A. I think the beginning of 1991. I think that it was in Zagreb at a

14 stadium.

15 Q. You mentioned the stadium in Zagreb. What happened at the stadium

16 then?

17 A. There was a review then, the first review of the National Guards

18 Corps.

19 Q. Was the National Guards Corps an armed formation of Croatia?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. At that time, that is to say in the first half of 1991, did the

22 Yugoslav constitution state what the armed forces were and what they were

23 made up of?

24 A. As far as I can remember, the only armed force was the Yugoslav

25 People's Army, the JNA.

1 Q. According to the constitution of Yugoslavia and according to the

2 constitution of Croatia, was it possible within Yugoslavia to set up a new

3 armed force, like the National Guards Corps?

4 A. As far as I know about these laws, I think that that was

5 impossible.

6 Q. I asked you a question of a legal nature. At that time in

7 Yugoslavia, were the only armed formations the Yugoslav People's Army and

8 the Territorial Defence?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you have any information about the HDZ, that is the Croatian

11 Democratic Union, arming people, their own members, at the time? Did you

12 hear anything about that?

13 A. Yes, this was talked about.

14 Q. Can you tell us a bit more about this.

15 A. Well, the only thing I heard among the people was that the HDZ was

16 arming itself, but I did not have any insight of my own, how and in which

17 way.

18 Q. Can you tell me what period of time was the relevant period of

19 time. When was this talked about? We are talking about 1990 and 1991.

20 Would that be right?

21 A. I think it was the beginning of 1991.

22 Q. In this film that has to do with General Spegelj, the illegal

23 import of weapons into Croatia is referred to. You said that the film

24 talks about things that happened towards the end of 1990. Is that right?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

1 Q. Can it be said that these were weapons that were illegally

2 imported towards the end of 1990 into the then-Republic of Croatia? Is

3 that what the film refers to?

4 A. That is the conclusion that may be drawn.

5 MR. WHITING: Well, Your Honour, the witness answered the question

6 before I had a chance to object, but maybe I'll nonetheless just object.

7 I think that the -- that counsel is pressing the witness beyond what he

8 heard to make comments of a legal nature or draw conclusions that he's

9 really not in a position to draw. For example, were they illegal import.

10 It wasn't clear to me whether the question was: Was that what he heard

11 about on the tape, or is that his view, that it was illegal.

12 And the same with respect to the question about armed formations,

13 which the counsel phrased as a legal question. It seems to me that

14 there's not a foundation for these sorts of questions.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

16 -- that the question said: "Can it be said that these were

17 weapons that were illegally imported towards the end of 1990 in the

18 then-Republic of Croatia, is that what the film refers to?"

19 Are you saying that the witness is not in a position to say

20 whether the film refers to that or not?

21 MR. WHITING: No. Of course, the second part of the question is a

22 proper question. It's the first part of the question that -- I mean,

23 there are actually two questions there, and it's the first question that

24 I'm objecting to, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, the answer that was given, what does it

1 answer to, the first or the second question?

2 MR. WHITING: I can't say, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then the counsel must carry the burden of his

4 questioning. If he's going to put more than one question in one question

5 and he gets an answer like that, he must argue at the end of the trial

6 what that answer refers to. And if he doesn't clarify it, that's his

7 problem.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. You say, Mr. Dzakula, that you heard that people were talking

10 about the political party called the Croatian Democratic Union arming

11 people. When did you hear that? From who? And who were these people?

12 A. From Serbs.

13 Q. Where and who were they?

14 A. In Western Slavonia.

15 Q. Were they Serb eye-witnesses or can you tell us something a bit

16 more about this, generally speaking?

17 A. I couldn't say. I didn't ask them. It's just that these people

18 said that they had heard this.

19 Q. Are you trying to say that the Serbs in Western Slavonia told you

20 that the Croats were arming themselves?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you hear about the order issued by the Presidency of

23 Yugoslavia, Presidency of the SFRY, dated January 1991, saying that all

24 illegally armed formations ought to be disarmed?

25 A. Yes, I heard about it.

1 Q. Do you know any further details about what happened with that

2 order? Was it implemented?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. In your evidence, you mentioned a meeting in November of 1991 in

5 Belgrade with Mr. Jovic and Mr. Milosevic. That meeting was held between

6 them and the Serbs from Krajina. Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry. I think that -- I think it misstates the

9 testimony. I think it's 1990.

10 [Defence counsel confer]

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. This was a meeting in 1991?

13 A. No. The meeting was in 1990.

14 Q. Are we referring to the same meeting, namely the meeting where

15 there were 20 to 30 Serbs, as you described, who came to Belgrade and met

16 with Mr. Jovic and Mr. Milosevic where you encountered some opposition?

17 When was this meeting held?

18 A. In late 1990.

19 Q. All right. I apologise for the misunderstanding.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Did you say yesterday that you didn't know who exactly arranged

23 this meeting, called for it?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. In your written statement given to the Prosecution, on page 20 it

1 says that this was a meeting --

2 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I may. It's generally the practice

3 at the Tribunal that when prior statements are put to the witness, that

4 the witness is given an opportunity to see the statement in its language

5 and look at it and have it before him. And I would ask that that be done

6 in this case. I don't know if Defence counsel has a copy in the

7 language -- I certainly have an extra copy.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is certainly the understanding of the Chamber

9 as the procedure.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 MR. WHITING: I --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And if the witness may be given an opportunity to

13 identify the statement as his own.

14 MR. WHITING: If he could be given a clean copy. I see the copy

15 that's all marked up that's been provided. I have a clean copy of the

16 statement. Thank you.

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for the

18 misunderstanding.

19 Thank you to my learned friend.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. On -- in the -- on page 20, third paragraph from the bottom, this

23 is the statement that you gave to the Prosecution in May of 2002.

24 Does it state in that passage that you went to attend a meeting

25 convened by Borisav Jovic, who was president of the Presidency of

1 the SFRY; Slobodan Milosevic, who was the president of Serbia at the time?

2 A. I have trouble finding this passage that you're referring to.

3 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry. I'm sorry -- and I'm sorry to interrupt,

4 but can counsel direct us on the English translation what page that

5 appears? Do you know?

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Let me check. Just a moment,

8 Your Honour.

9 May I ask my learned friend from the Prosecution to give me the

10 English version, because I'm unable to find it now and I don't want to

11 waste any more time on this. And I believe that this would speed up the

12 procedure.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting, do you have an English copy?

15 MR. WHITING: I do -- I was just checking if I had an extra one; I

16 do. So I can provide this one to counsel.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

18 MR. WHITING: It's on page 18, the last paragraph. I just found

19 it.

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm grateful to my learned

21 friend, and I apologise to the Trial Chamber for this misunderstanding. I

22 hope this will not happen again in the future.

23 Q. In this third passage from the bottom, Mr. Dzakula, does it say

24 that you went to attend a meeting organised by Borisav Jovic, president of

25 the Presidency; Slobodan Milosevic, president of Serbia; and Ante

1 Markovic, president of the Federal Executive Council, which is to say the

2 federal prime minister?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Does it say in the same paragraph that the meeting was convened in

5 order to clarify the status of Serbs in Western Slavonia?

6 A. Yes. That's a mistake. That's a mistake.

7 Q. Can you clarify? What is this mistake about?

8 A. Not just the status of Serb in Western Slavonia, but rather the

9 status of Serb in Croatia, in general.

10 Q. When giving evidence and answering questions from the Prosecution

11 yesterday, did you speak about the fears --

12 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry. I have to object because the -- what is

13 said in the paragraph has been misstated. It does not say that the

14 meeting was convened in order to clarify the status of Serbs in Western

15 Slavonia. What it says is: "I went to a meeting organised by these

16 people to explain the position of Serbs in Western Slavonia."

17 [Defence counsel confer]

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your

19 permission, on page 18 of the English translation in the last paragraph it

20 says that this was in November 1990, and now I'm reading the text where

21 the witness says: "When I went to a meeting organised by Borisav Jovic,

22 Slobodan Milosevic, and Ante Markovic to explain the position of Serbs in

23 Western Slavonia."

24 I quoted this text, but uttered it in the language of the witness.

25 And I don't understand. What is the objection of the Prosecution? I'm

1 unaware of having made any mistake; therefore, I do not understand the

2 objection.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, does the statement in the

4 language of the witness say that the meeting was called or convened in

5 order to clarify the status of Serbs, or does it say that the witness

6 attended the meeting in order to explain the status of the Serbs? What

7 does it say?

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will read out

9 verbatim the text that was sent to us, the translation of it. Can I do

10 that? Can I read it out now? The entire text of this passage reads as

11 follows --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like -- the Court would like you to read

13 the original text that was written by the witness. What does it say?

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] "The Association of Serbs from

15 Croatia was founded by certain Serbs from Croatia living in Belgrade. I

16 met with them in November 1990 when we went to a meeting organised by

17 Jovic, Milosevic, and Markovic to clarify the position of Serbs in Western

18 Slavonia."

19 Further, the text reads: "We did not meet with Markovic. First

20 we met with Borisav Jovic. Some other people from the Knin area came as

21 well. They were euphoric and spoke about persecutions of Serbs in

22 Croatia. The rest of us were not given opportunity to speak."

23 Therefore, my question to the witness pertained solely to this

24 portion of his statement.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that the original is, in

1 fact, the English version.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much to the interpreters.

3 You heard that, Mr. Milovancevic. Apparently the original text is

4 the English version. So that which you are reading is a translation, in

5 which case I must apologise to you and ask that the English version, which

6 is now said to be the original, be the one read. Let's hear what it says

7 and then we'll find out from the witness what he actually said in his

8 statement.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [In English] "The Association of Serbs from

10 Croatia was established by some Serbs from Croatia living in Belgrade. I

11 met with them in November 1990 when I went to a meeting organised by

12 Borisav Jovic, Slobodan Milosevic, and Ante Markovic to explain the

13 position of the Serbs in Western Slavonia. We did not meet with

14 Mr. Markovic. We first met with Mr. Borisav Jovic. Some other people

15 from Knin region came there as well. They were euphoric and talked about

16 persecutions of Serbs in Croatia. The result of us -- the rest of us

17 could not get the opportunity to speak."

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: There maybe some ambiguity in that statement. And

19 I'm not quite sure whether you want to get it clarified by the witness, or

20 do you want the Chamber to try and say what the ambiguity is at this

21 stage? I'm reluctant to say the ambiguity until we hear the witness --

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, Your Honour, I

23 simply want to show to the Trial Chamber what our intention was. It was

24 not my intention to quote the text verbatim. I was more relying on the

25 content and the essence of it. I wanted to ask the witness whether he

1 attended the meeting, and if so, who convened it. And then I wanted the

2 witness to tell us in view of these two texts whether it was true that

3 Ante Markovic was one of the persons convening the meeting. At the time,

4 Ante Markovic was president of the Federal Executive Council; he was

5 federal prime minister. I'm not here to harmonise the two texts. I'm

6 simply here to put a question to the witness based on the texts.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That may very well be so, Mr. Milovancevic, and I

8 think you will still have the opportunity to do so.

9 However, an objection has been raised by your learned friend on

10 the opposite side based on a specific question that you asked. You asked

11 him the question: A meeting had been convened in order to explain the

12 position of the Serbs. The objection says: No, that's not what the

13 statement says. The statement says: "I went to the meeting in order to

14 explain the position of the Serbs."

15 Now, in view of the objection, notwithstanding your good

16 intentions, I think we need to clear that little misinterpretation or

17 misunderstanding, and I think the witness should be asked to clarify in a

18 point: What is it that actually happened? Did he know the purpose of the

19 meeting to be -- to explain the status of the Serbs? Or did he go to the

20 meeting with the intention of explaining the status of the Serbs?

21 Can you clarify that question, please, and then you can go to your

22 question.

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave,

24 just one sentence. I would like to point out one thing to the Trial

25 Chamber. The original text is in English; however, the original statement

1 is the one that the witness gave in his native language. He didn't give

2 his statement in English. He gave it in his native language and then that

3 was translated into English. Perhaps the easiest thing to do would be to

4 ask the witness why he went to this meeting and to have him explain it.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, were you present when the witness

6 wrote the statement?

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. I

8 understand what you're asking --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you can't tell us in what language he made the

10 statement, can you?

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [No interpretation]

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness is here, he can clarify all these

13 questions. So stop testifying from the bar. Let the witness clarify the

14 issues that I've asked you to do.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It

16 wasn't my intention to create further misunderstandings --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, please clarify the issue with the

18 witness, otherwise the Court will do so.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: Thank you.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dzakula, did you attend the meeting in

21 Belgrade in November of 1990?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us how it came about that you came to the meeting and

24 what was the purpose of the meeting?

25 A. I was informed by my colleague, a member of the Regional Board of

1 the SDS for Western Slavonia, Slavko Lukic, that there would be a meeting

2 in Belgrade attended by representatives of Serbs from Croatia. He said it

3 would be very important for me to attend as well.

4 He was unable to tell me where the meeting would be held and with

5 whom. I headed out to Belgrade with him. I was told that he would be

6 told this en route, and I was told that it would be good for me to be

7 present. So I travelled with him, and when we arrived in Belgrade we met

8 with the representatives of the Serbs from Croatia.

9 That was the first time I met them. It was then that we were told

10 that a meeting would be held with Ante Markovic, president of the Federal

11 Executive Council; Borisav Jovic, president of the Presidency of the SFRY;

12 and Slobodan Milosevic.

13 However, the meeting was held only with Borisav Jovic, in his

14 office, and later on in Slobodan Milosevic's office. Ante Markovic did

15 not see us. Therefore, I didn't know who convened the meeting, nor did I

16 know where the meeting would be held until I arrived in Belgrade.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, the Court is going to clarify the

18 question for you because you are not clarifying the question.

19 Mr. Dzakula, when you went to this meeting, did you know the

20 purpose of the meeting; and if so, what was it?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was said that we should give our

22 opinion about the problem and the position of Serbs in Croatia and their

23 sentiments. I went to the meeting intending to speak about Western

24 Slavonia, which I was familiar with, and I wanted to use this opportunity

25 to speak about that.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I repeat the question, Mr. Dzakula. When you went

2 to the meeting, did you know why the meeting had been convened, yes or no?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you went to the meeting, did you have any

5 purpose of your own? What was the reason you went to the meeting?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I heard that there would be a

7 large group from Croatia going to the meeting, I wanted to be informed. I

8 wanted to hear what was going to be discussed there.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is -- was that all you wanted to do at the meeting,

10 to be informed about what is discussed there? Or did you have any other

11 reason for going to the meeting?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I wanted to see what

13 was going to be discussed there; and then if the meeting went into the

14 problems concerning Western Slavonia, I was going to use that opportunity.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: To use the opportunity to do what?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To speak about the situation in

17 Western Slavonia, to discuss whether there were any problems and what kind

18 of problems.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was that all?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Dzakula.

22 I think the witness has cleared the point.

23 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I would just take note of the hour. I

24 don't know if the Court has lost track.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, indeed.

1 It is past 7.00, Mr. Milovancevic. Is it convenient or do you

2 want to round off a point before we close?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: Sorry.

5 [Interpretation] I think that this will do for the time being. We

6 can continue tomorrow.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

8 Court will adjourn to tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the same

9 court.

10 Court adjourned.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.09 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of

13 January, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.

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