1 Friday, 27 January 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 WITNESS: REYNAUD THEUNENS [Resumed]

7 Examined by Mr. Black: [Continued]

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black.

9 MR. BLACK: Good morning, Your Honour. Thank you.

10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Theunens. Can you hear me okay?

11 A. Yes, thank you. Good morning.

12 Q. When we broke last night, you were discussing several examples of

13 unified command between the JNA and local TO in particular localities that

14 appear in the indictment. We're going to continue on that same topic for

15 a few more minutes this morning.

16 And to start, I'd like to ask you to look at document 65 ter

17 number 1251. The B/C/S ERN of that document is 01527773.

18 Just to remind everyone, we're around page 108, 109 in

19 Mr. Theunens's report.

20 Mr. Theunens, can you see that document on your screen now in

21 English?

22 A. Indeed, Your Honours. This document is an order from the command

23 of the 13th Corps - that is a JNA unit - as we can see from the heading in

24 the left top corner. It is dated the 7th of November 1991, and on the

25 last page, we can see the name of the commander of the unit, Colonel

1 Slobodan Djordjevic.

2 In the context of the topic we are discussing at the moment, I

3 would like to draw attention to heading number 2, which is on the top of

4 the second page. And in heading number 2, you can see that the corps

5 commander or the commander orders that the sector of Saborsko, Funtana and

6 Kuselj villages, there will be operations; i.e., the enemy forces will be

7 destroyed, and then once that is done, the area will be overtaken by

8 forces of the TO of Plaski and Titovo Korenica, which are units of the SAO

9 Krajina Territorial Defence. The TO Titovo Korenica is also mentioned a

10 bit downwards on the same page. We can see it in the heading 3. So again

11 this shows single command between JNA and TO whereby the TO is

12 subordinated to the JNA.

13 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, could this document be given an exhibit

14 number and be admitted into evidence, please.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence, and may it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 52, Your Honours.

18 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. The next document is 65 ter number 1249; the ERN in B/C/S is

20 01527793 to 7795.

21 Mr. Theunens, I've taken this one slightly out of chronological

22 order, I apologise for that. Could you please tell us what this document

23 is and point out any relevant passages.

24 A. This document is an order from the commander of the 1st Battalion

25 of the SAO Krajina Plaski TO. We can see that again from the heading in

1 the left top corner. This document is related to the previous document.

2 All these documents deal with operations in the Saborsko area. Here we

3 have a TO order.

4 Interesting passage is under the heading 2, which starts at the

5 bottom of the page. Information about our forces. May we go then to the

6 top of the next page? So this is on the top of the second page of the

7 order, that's a continuation of the heading 2, information about our

8 forces. There it is mentioned that the 1st Battalion of the Plascanska TO

9 Brigade has been reinforced with forces from the unit for special

10 purposes, police reserve forces, and military police. Now, unit for

11 special purposes, then we think or this is the unit of the SAO Krajina

12 special purpose police, police reserve is also pretty obvious, and

13 military police can include TO or JNA.

14 So this document shows that in this case, TO and police operate

15 together whereby TO SAO Krajina unit has been reinforced with elements of

16 the SAO Krajina Police.

17 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, could this receive a number and be

18 admitted please.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence, and may it

20 please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 53, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. The next document is 65 ter number 1253. The ERN in B/C/S is

25 02029343 to 9344.

1 Mr. Theunens, please look at this document and tell us what it is

2 and point us to the significant passages.

3 A. Your Honours, this is an order from the 5th Military District

4 command from the JNA, signed, as you can see on the second page at the

5 bottom, by Colonel General Zivota Avramovic, and it is an order to form

6 the 3rd Operations Group. Interesting passage here is the heading 2,

7 which is on the bottom of the first page, where it is mentioned -- where

8 it is described which units are subordinated to the 3rd Operational Group,

9 and you will see that there are JNA units and SAO Krajina TO units among

10 the units that are subordinated to the 3rd Operational Group or among the

11 units that are part of the 3rd Operational Group, which is in line with

12 the doctrinal issues we discussed yesterday.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. BLACK: If this could receive a number and be admitted, Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

17 please be given an exhibit number.

18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 54, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

20 MR. BLACK:

21 Q. Mr. Theunens, I have two additional documents on, I think, the

22 same theme, so perhaps if you can just look at them and if they just

23 reinforce what you said earlier, you can say that and we can go through

24 them a little more quickly.

25 The first one is 65 ter number 1265; the B/C/S ERN is 02032589 to

1 2591.

2 A. Indeed, Your Honours. This is just a confirmation of what we

3 discussed earlier. When we scroll down on the first page to the middle of

4 the page, we will see -- you will see that explicitly it is mentioned --

5 it is explicitly mentioned that all units in the area are placed under the

6 single command of OG 3; i.e., the highest JNA command in the area of

7 responsibility of the subordinate units and formations.

8 Q. Just please remind us what "OG" stands for.

9 A. "OG" stands for "Operational Group."

10 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, could this receive a number and be

11 admitted, please.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is received into evidence, and may it please be

13 given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 55, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. The final document with regard to Saborsko is 65 ter number 1858.

18 B/C/S ERN is 02032584 to 2586.

19 Mr. Theunens, if you could again have a look at that and tell us

20 whether or not it supports what you've been talking about.

21 A. Your Honours, when we look in the document at the headings 2 and

22 3, so at the bottom of the first page, the document in the head -- under

23 the heading 2 details or states that in addition to JNA units there are

24 also a number of Territorial Defence units that are placed under the

25 command of the tactical group number 2, and these units are identified.

1 And in the heading 3, under the heading 3, the task of tactical group

2 number 2, in accordance with this particular order, is described.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. BLACK: If this could also receive a number and be admitted,

5 Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence, and may it

7 please be given an exhibit number, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 56, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 MR. BLACK:

11 Q. Mr. Theunens, staying on the same topic of joint command but

12 changing localities, I'd like you to look at document 65 ter number 2059.

13 The B/C/S ERN is 02015502. It's just one page.

14 A. Your Honours, this is an order from the 2nd and 3rd operational

15 zone headquarters for Banja and Kordun. This operational zone

16 headquarters refers to the SAO Krajina Territorial Defence. Earlier in

17 the document when we discussed the establishment of a TO SAO Krajina

18 staff, the operational zone structure is detailed. This is an order on

19 cooperation with JNA units, and it specifies then the missions under the

20 heading 2 and 3, the missions of a number of TO SAO Krajina units.

21 Q. Just to clarify, Mr. Theunens: You said earlier in the document,

22 when we discussed the establishment of the SAO Krajina TO staff, was that

23 a -- did you mean earlier in your report or earlier in this document?

24 A. Earlier in my report, Your Honours.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, could this receive a number and be

2 admitted, please.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted evidence, and may it

4 please be given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 57, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 MR. BLACK:

8 Q. The final document on this topic is 65 ter number 173. The B/C/S

9 ERN is 02011628.

10 A. Your Honours, this is an order from the command of the 1st

11 Operational Group, so a JNA command, and in the second paragraph of the

12 document, the commander, Major General Spiro Ninkovic explicitly states

13 that all Territorial Defence units in his zone of responsibility or in the

14 zone of operations of the 1st Operational Group are placed under the

15 command of the 1st Operational Group starting from the date mentioned in

16 the order.

17 MR. BLACK: Thank you. Could it receive a number and be admitted,

18 please.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, can we just see the top address

20 on the document. Mr. Theunens, what is the Socialist Republic of Croatia?

21 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, that was the structure or that was the

22 name of Croatia before it became independent from the SFRY, and I believe

23 that actually the unit -- the stamp is from the receiver and that the

24 receiver used this stamp. On one hand he state that they are part of the

25 Socialist Republic of Croatia, but on the other hand when we look then at

1 the situation at that time, the municipality of Vojnic is part of the

2 territory controlled by the entity known as the SAO Krajina TO -- SAO

3 Krajina. So there is a bit of a contradiction because, as you pointed

4 out, this would -- the stamp would indicate that this is a unit that is

5 part of the Territorial Defence of the Republic of Croatia, but when we

6 look at the date, 20th of October, and we also take the document into

7 context with other documents, my analysis would be, or is, that at that

8 time this TO unit is actually not responding any more to the Republic of

9 Croatia but to the SAO Krajina. So the stamp, from that point of view,

10 would be misleading.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm misled by the apparent source of the document,

12 given the address of the author.

13 THE WITNESS: The stamp, Your Honour, on the right top corner is

14 actually a stamp of a receiver.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't see the stamp, unless the stamp is at the

16 bottom of the page.

17 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, on the B/C/S copy, which is -- you

18 can't see that.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm looking at the English copy.

20 THE WITNESS: Yes.

21 MR. BLACK: Would it be possible for the Court officer to show the

22 B/C/S on the monitor so we could have a better view of this, please?

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: All right.

24 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, as this is our first run through a bunch

25 of documents with e-court, I'm not sure what we can do and what we can't

1 do, but I think we ought to be able to see this in B/C/S on our screens.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: We can always ask Judge Hoepfel to help us. He's

3 got --

4 MR. BLACK: Here we go, Your Honour, it's come up on the screen

5 now. At the top of that page.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. That makes better sense. This is the stamp

7 of the receiver. It's not the address of the author.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

9 MR. BLACK:

10 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Theunens, the way the Chamber has stated it?

11 A. Yes, Your Honour, when taking into account or assuming that this

12 document is established according to the rules for the drafting of orders

13 and reports that were -- that applied to the JNA, the author of the

14 document, or let's say the command that is issuing the order, is always

15 identified on the left top corner, and then the stamp of the receiver can

16 be put anywhere. Now, here it is put on the right top side. It could

17 also -- quite often when we have documents, the stamp of the receiver is

18 put at the left -- in the left bottom corner, where also the time is

19 mentioned and also a number is given to register the document as an

20 incoming order.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Theunens. That original

22 document at least clears the question in my mind.

23 Thank you, you may proceed, Mr. Black. You asked if it may be

24 admitted into evidence.

25 MR. BLACK: Indeed, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence, and may it

2 please be given an exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 58, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Theunens, from pages 112 to 118 of your report, which are

7 pages 133 to 139 in B/C/S, you discuss some documents which you say

8 "indicate that there were problems with the maintaining of discipline and

9 the prevention of crime during the operations in Croatia."

10 Now, first, could you please summarise how these documents

11 indicate that there were problems maintaining discipline and preventing

12 crimes among members of the TO.

13 A. Your Honours, the documents that have been discussed in page 112

14 to 118 of my report consist of orders by senior JNA officers where they

15 warn their subordinates, and in particular TO, to abide by military

16 discipline and also military -- and the rules of -- the laws of war.

17 And also I've quoted from a number of investigations that were

18 carried out by security -- people called security organs, so members of

19 the security service within the SFRY armed forces, who have been informed

20 that in certain areas alleged violations of the laws and customs of war

21 have taken place and who drafted reports on these alleged violations.

22 Q. Mr. Theunens, let me take you to one document in particular, which

23 you reproduced in large part on pages 114 to 117. The 65 ter number is

24 2041, and the ERN is 04192153 to 2156. If possible, could we have the

25 English shown on the screen again as we were before. Thank you.

1 Mr. Theunens, would you look at this document, please, and tell us

2 what it is and what it shows us.

3 A. Your Honours, this is an order by the command of the 9th JNA

4 Corps, also known as the Knin Corps; Colonel Vukovic. An order he issued

5 on the 20th of October which is called combatting the crime in the zone of

6 combat activities of the 9th Corps. The copy we have here is the one that

7 was addressed to the command of the 1st TO Partizan Brigade. And in this

8 order, Vukovic gives instructions on what should we do to maintain

9 discipline and also prevent crimes. He specifies the crimes that have

10 taken place, and he also mentions what should be done to prevent or to act

11 against crimes.

12 In that context, I would like to draw your attention to the last

13 part of the heading 2, which is mentioned on the beginning of the second

14 page. Colonel Vukovic there states that in taking measures for the

15 protection of citizens and property, the armed forces or all elements of

16 the armed forces have to cooperate with the legal organs of the

17 government, particularly the organs of security, and they should then take

18 the measures within their jurisdiction. This indicates that at that time

19 there are bodies of government in the zone of responsibility in the 9th

20 Corps, so local government, and there are also organs or structures that

21 are able to maintain security and law and order outside the military. In

22 normal circumstances, when the military is operating somewhere, you don't

23 expect civilians to be there and the military police will take care of law

24 and order in first instance, but this passage indicates that in the zone

25 of responsibility of the 9th Corps, as I mentioned, there is a civilian

1 authority and also structures under that civilian authority which can

2 maintain law and order and also act against crime.

3 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, could this receive a number and be

4 admitted?

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a question. How, then, does the

6 intermingling between the civil security authority and the military

7 authority interact with the concept of uniform command control within the

8 army? It seems to be contradicting what we have been told earlier, that

9 there was single command and the command would be within the army

10 structure. Now there seems now to be also some authority coming from the

11 civil society.

12 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, the principle of single and unified

13 command and also the third principle obligation to implement decisions,

14 applied to military operations, and military operations - for example, an

15 attack - will start with an order and will end with an order, and in that

16 order - and we have discussed a number of examples yesterday evening and

17 this morning - the subordination is specified in detail. The commander

18 will not only explain what the mission will be and where the mission will

19 be carried out, but also which units will be involved and who will be in

20 charge, who will be in command.

21 This order here, the order we are discussing at the moment, does

22 not relate to a specific operation but relates to the general situation.

23 I.e., there can be operation -- excuse me, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You go ahead.

25 THE WITNESS: So it means that there is no specific operation

1 taking place and as long as there is no specific operation taking place,

2 then there is no need to subordinate, for example, police to the JNA. Of

3 course, there will be negotiations, or there will be coordination,

4 cooperation, between the JNA and local police if such a police exist. For

5 example, in the situation when there was an operation aimed at seizing a

6 particular area, when the mission has been accomplished and the area has

7 been seized, then -- and when the JNA commander then knows that I can rely

8 on the civilian police and civilian structures to maintain law and order,

9 then there will be -- there will be negotiations and talks between these

10 two bodies, in order to transfer authority. And this is what actually the

11 order of Vukovic refers to. He's not referring specifically to crimes

12 that are committed while operations are taking place. He mentions, for

13 example, looting and I think harassment of the civilian population. That

14 is something that also takes place once the particular operation is

15 finished. Once a village has been captured, then the situation has to be

16 normalised as soon as possible, and if there are civilian bodies, for

17 authority and security, these bodies have to come into action following,

18 of course, negotiations with the JNA command.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have some questions but I would rather leave them

20 at this stage.

21 THE WITNESS: I apologise if I was not precise enough but I could

22 -- for example, but maybe it brings us too far but you could, for

23 example, link it to current situations. The conflict in Iraq, for

24 example, once the military has achieved its goals, then you want civilian

25 authority, if such a civilian authority exists, to take over as soon as

1 possible. But, of course, the requirement is that the civilian authority

2 exists and it's just not that somebody declares, "I'm the civilian

3 authority and I take over." No, this is part of a process, and there are

4 negotiations and there are -- there will maybe be an agreement about who

5 will be responsible for what, in order to share the burden, for example,

6 between military police and civilian police.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. I

8 have an objection, Your Honour. They are now giving for an example a

9 situation that has nothing to do with the actual one, either in factual or

10 in legal sense. In Iraq, they have foreign troops, whereas the JNA was a

11 legal federal armed force in its own territory. Could we be please given

12 an actual, real life situation? This is the gist of my objection.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Black.

14 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I think it was offered just as an

15 illustration, but I think we can move on to some other questions and

16 hopefully -- either I'll clarify it or Your Honour will have, of course,

17 the chance to ask more questions.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sure we can clarify this by sticking to the

19 facts of the case, Mr. Theunens. The question that I did want to ask,

20 which I was reluctant to ask, was I do understand what you say, the

21 transitional period of the military handing over to civilian authority.

22 But my understanding, and this is a very ignorant understanding because I

23 have no knowledge of military issues, but from what we have been saying, I

24 would expect that up until some order comes from within the military, some

25 commander, to say military operations have now ceased, we hand over to

1 civilian society, the military would be in control. And the military

2 would maintain discipline, even of the armed forces who are not in

3 operation but are just generally in control of the area to make sure that

4 there is law and order, and if they start looting, that they are going to

5 be disciplined by a military court, not a civilian court, even at that

6 stage.

7 I would therefore expect that there would be a very clear point in

8 time when authority would be transferred to the civilian authorities.

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I in this connection ask if I understand

10 correctly that in paragraphs 5 and 6, the military court is being

11 addressed, in fact, but in connection with the prosecutor's office from

12 Zagreb, as it says in point 6, with its seat in Banja Luka? Does this

13 have any specific meaning?

14 THE WITNESS: Indeed, Your Honours, I would first like to answer

15 to the first question, Your Honours. It is, of course, correct that a

16 handover can only take place on orders. So this order we are discussing

17 now does not allow to conclude when a handover has taken place. The order

18 in -- at the end of the second paragraph only mentions that there are

19 bodies of civilian authority that are, according to the commander, able to

20 maintain law and order and also to act against crimes, crimes committed in

21 first instance by civilians, because, to answer to the second question, it

22 is correct when we look at the regulations that apply to military court

23 and military prosecutors, which are discussed in the first section of my

24 report, military courts and military prosecutors will take care of crimes

25 allegedly committed by military personnel, but it could be that there were

1 others involved. And that, for example, applies to if there are

2 volunteers involved, or policemen. It will depend of the investigation

3 and also the cooperation between the military court and the civilian court

4 - we have to see whether there is a civilian court at that time in Knin

5 that is operating - to see who will be in charge of prosecuting and then

6 trying non-military personnel who have been involved in crimes. But, of

7 course, before such a thing can take place, there have to be arrangements

8 for handover of power in certain areas.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Theunens, in terms of -- and please explain if

10 I'm misunderstanding you. I've understood the explanation thus far from

11 your report that anybody - volunteer or policeman - who acts as a soldier

12 for any reason, resists any attack, becomes part of the armed forces and

13 becomes subject to the military court discipline. Therefore, whether

14 you're a policeman or a volunteer, if you have volunteered into the

15 military, you are subject to discipline by the military and not by the

16 civilian court for as long as cessation of hostilities has not been

17 ordered.

18 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, it is indeed correct that according to

19 the All People's Defence Law anybody who takes up weapons and participate

20 in the defence of the country will be considered a member of the armed

21 forces. However, I would like to make one observation: That is that, as

22 is also mentioned in the first section of the report, at a certain moment

23 we see the appearance of what is called or what are called volunteer

24 groups. These are actually paramilitary formations who mainly pursue

25 political goals, and for the groups originating from Serbia, they pursued

1 purely Serbian goals, also known as the achievement of a Greater Serbia.

2 When doing research for my report for the Milosevic case, we had,

3 for example, a series of documents related to crimes in an area and I

4 believe these were crimes in Western Slavonia, if I recall well, and we

5 had a report from a security organ who said, well, crimes have taken place

6 there, he informs his superior, the military prosecutor is being informed,

7 then we see an exchange of reports between various military prosecutors,

8 and then also the information is forwarded to a civilian prosecutor in

9 Novi Sad in Serbia because the military prosecutor says, well, these were

10 not military personnel; i.e., these were members of a volunteer group, and

11 therefore we are not competent for these people.

12 Now, I can only explain to you what I've seen in the documents,

13 and like you, I notice that there is a discrepancy between what was stated

14 in the de jure regulations, like the law for the military prosecutor and

15 for military courts on one hand, and on the other hand, the enforcement of

16 discipline and military justice on - in this case - volunteers. For the

17 police are concerned --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: But we are actually not even sure that this

19 paragraph relates to volunteers.

20 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour, but I wanted to give an

21 introduction to my reply to say, well, like the first category of

22 volunteers where on one hand, according to the law, they should be at all

23 times subject to military discipline and also military justice should

24 apply to them. We see that in practice there has at least been one

25 exception. When talking now about police, I have to mention that I didn't

1 study the police discipline or police justice structures and regulations

2 that apply to that because that was outside the scope of my report.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that, but if police participate in

4 military action, they can forget about the police disciplinary code. They

5 then become subject to military disciplinary court; isn't that the

6 position?

7 THE WITNESS: During the operations, yes, and it would seem

8 logical that the first person who informs the military prosecutor about

9 the crimes will be a military officer, will be the superior of these

10 policemen or a soldier who participated in the operations. But then for

11 the procedure to take place, I'm not in a position to answer the question.

12 I don't know that -- based on the documents I reviewed, I cannot draw any

13 conclusions on whether the military prosecutor should prosecute these

14 people or they should be deferred to the procedures that are -- that apply

15 to the police.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: All we can say is probably what my very first

17 question; this paragraph seems to go contrary to the de jure structure of

18 discipline within the military as we understand it.

19 THE WITNESS: Your Honours --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can't explain. You were not there. You were

21 not an eyewitness. You were an expert witness. All I'm saying, from --

22 is it fair to conclude or is it fair to infer from this paragraph that

23 what this paragraph says goes contra to what ought to happen if we look at

24 the law of the war of the country at the time?

25 THE WITNESS: That is correct, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You wanted the document to be

2 admitted into evidence.

3 MR. BLACK: Yes, I would, please, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so admitted, and may it be given an exhibit

5 number, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 59, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. In an effort to clarify and not to confuse what we just talked

10 about, Mr. Theunens, is there any distinction between who commands units

11 in an operational group and who has jurisdiction to actually try those

12 people who participated for any violations that are committed, or does

13 command and disciplinary jurisdictions, are those permanently tied

14 together or is there a distinction between those two?

15 A. Actually, if I understand the question well, there is a

16 distinction, and there should be a distinction because military discipline

17 -- military justice, at least, should be independent.

18 In the military, distinction is made between military discipline

19 and military justice. Military discipline applies to minor violations;

20 for example, of somebody who is late or who fails to carry out the

21 assignment within the right conditions or the right way as it was expected

22 by the commander, and there, of course, the commander is most responsible.

23 For what military justice is concerned, of course, the commander,

24 like any other JNA officer, has the duty to report alleged violations of

25 the laws and customs of war. He can also task people to carry out an

1 investigation. However, the traditional procedure based on the doctrine

2 would be that the commander informs security organs or the military

3 police, they will carry out the investigation, and then the information

4 related to the investigation is forwarded through these channels - so the

5 security organs or military police channels - to the competent authorities

6 and that will be, in first instance, the military prosecutor, in order to

7 avoid, for example, interference from the commander with the justice

8 system.

9 Q. If you know the answer to this, would it be possible for that

10 investigation process to result in a referral to some other body other

11 than the military justice organs?

12 A. Based on the documents I mentioned earlier, documents I reviewed

13 for the Milosevic case that were related to crimes in Western Slavonia,

14 the answer would be yes.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: What would the answer be in relation to this case?

16 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, in my report on the pages -- on page

17 118, at the top, I have discussed a number of documents which are reports

18 from security organs and a military police officer about crimes that have

19 been committed in Skabrnja, which is located west of Knin, on the 18th of

20 November 1991.

21 Before addressing these documents, I would like to draw your

22 attention on the previous page in my report, page 117 in the English

23 version, where, in the second -- where in paragraph under the heading 2,

24 Skabrnja-Nadin, we see that on the 20th of November, the Naval Military

25 District, which is the most senior JNA command structure in the area, and

1 which is also the superior command echelon to the 9th Corps, is informed

2 by ECMM, so the European -- at that time called the European Community

3 Monitoring Mission, about information the ECMM has received from the

4 Croatian side about, I quote, "... a crime against 30 people, who were

5 slaughtered ... in Skabrnja." ECMM asks the Naval Military District to

6 have access to the area of Skabrnja. This is refused. But the Naval

7 Military District then asks the 9th Corps to provide a report on the

8 situation in Skabrnja, what has happened, because Skabrnja is located in

9 the zone of responsibility of the 9th Corps.

10 Now, the documents I have discussed right here, the ECMM request,

11 that was a document I found myself doing a document search mission in the

12 Croatian state archives, and unfortunately we couldn't find the response

13 of the 9th Corps in the collection. Some documents were missing. So I'm

14 not in a position to say whether the 9th Corps, which had been tasked by

15 its superior command, investigated the crime.

16 Now, all we have are reports which were compiled somewhat later in

17 November and until March 1992, by security organs, mentioned on page 118

18 of my report, about those crimes. And we don't have any follow-up

19 documents. I don't know -- I'm not in a position to say whether any

20 measures were taken based on the investigation of the security organs who

21 clearly identify the alleged perpetrators. They mention that, "the

22 killings had been committed by members of the Benkovac Territorial Defence

23 Staff special units or units that fought under their command." There was

24 mentioning of a group called Opacic, but again, I don't know what

25 happened, I'm not in a position to say what happened afterwards.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You certainly wouldn't be in a position to say,

2 sir, but I would offer this comment: The situation that you're now

3 talking about seems to be distinguishable from the situation that we are

4 talking about. Here, you're having the ECMM making an inquiry, and you

5 can see the military wants to protect itself, doesn't want to give ECMM

6 carte blanche to find out what happened. They say no, no, no, no, you

7 don't come in, we'll investigate, we'll tell you, and then you don't get

8 the report. That situation is distinguishable from a situation where the

9 military itself believes that some of its members have committed a crime

10 and have to discipline them.

11 I don't know whether this is what you are envisaging, Mr. Black,

12 in your question, and I do realise that we have gone past, yes, but I

13 would like to wrap up this point.

14 MR. BLACK: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour. If I could try to ask

15 one or two questions, I think hopefully we'll wrap it up.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 MR. BLACK:

18 Q. Mr. Theunens, do you know in this scenario we have been discussing

19 where, for example, police units are subordinated to a JNA commander for

20 an operation, do you know what responsibility or what recourse the police

21 commander of those units would have available to him? Would he have any

22 recourse for alleged violations that occurred during the operations?

23 A. From the purely common sense point of view I would assume yes, but

24 again, this report is limited to military aspects, so I'm not really in a

25 position to give an authoritative answer into what a police commander

1 could or should or may have done, so I prefer not to answer the question.

2 Q. Very well. Just one thing to clarify to make sure we responded to

3 the Chamber's questions: The prosecutor's office from Zagreb, is that a

4 military or a civilian prosecutor?

5 A. I know that there was a military prosecutor's office at the time

6 in Zagreb but, of course, due to the events, the evolution of the

7 situation in Croatia, that military prosecutor office had to be moved to

8 let's call it less hostile territory, and that could explain why reference

9 is made to Banja Luka.

10 Q. Where is Banja Luka?

11 A. Banja Luka is located in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the western part

12 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Q. Thank you very much. I'd like to look at the document that you

14 mentioned, which is referred to page --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it still on the point?

16 MR. BLACK: No, I was going to move on to the next point, Your

17 Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's about time, I think -- or wouldn't that be a

19 convenient time? We should have gone at quarter to. Am I right? I'm

20 wrong.

21 MR. BLACK: I think we have until 10.15.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm wrong.

23 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. This is a document that was mentioned at page 118 of the report,

25 which I think is page 138 or 139 of the B/C/S. The 65 ter number is 2065,

1 and the B/C/S ERN number is 04144389.

2 Mr. Theunens, is this the document that you were referring to

3 earlier, that you see on the screen in front of you?

4 A. Indeed, Your Honours. This is the Naval Military District, which

5 was the superior command of the 9th Corps, forwarding the request of the

6 EC Mission to the 9th Corps. And again it shows that Skabrnja is located

7 within the zone of responsibility of the 9th Corps.

8 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, rather than repeat what he said before,

9 could this receive a number and be admitted into evidence, please.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so admitted into evidence. May it please be

11 given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 60, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Theunens, there is one last major topic within section 3 of

16 the report, and that's the establishment of the RSK TO and its

17 transformation into, "special police brigades." This begins at page 118

18 of your report, in fact at page 140 in the B/C/S. My first question for

19 you, you talk about the Vance Plan. What was the Vance Plan, how did it

20 come about, and what were its provisions?

21 A. Your Honours, on the 23rd of November 1991, the president of

22 Croatia, Franjo Tudjman, president of Serbia, Slobodan Milosevic, and the

23 federal secretary for people's defence, army General Veljko Kadijevic

24 signed a cease-fire agreement in Geneva, and this cease-fire agreement was

25 the precursor of the Vance Plan, which was agreed upon by the same people

1 on the 2nd of January 1992.

2 The Vance Plan consists of three phases: The first phase was the

3 deployment of a UN, so blue helmet, peace force in a number of areas in

4 Croatia, which were called UNPAs, United Nations Protected Areas. The

5 UNPAs were areas in Croatia where, according to the Secretary-General of

6 the United Nations, special arrangements were needed to maintain peace and

7 security. These were areas where already before the conflict or due to

8 the conflict, as a result of the conflict, there was a significant

9 presence of Serbs; majority or significant minority.

10 The second phase of the plan consisted of demilitarisation.

11 Demilitarisation implied withdrawal of the JNA and the Croatian forces,

12 which then had the name HV, as well as the demobilisation, disbanding and

13 disarmament of the local Serb TO. The weapons of the TO would then be

14 stored in what was called a dual key, under dual key system in warehouses.

15 Dual key meant there was a key held by UN peace forces, UNPROFOR, and SAO

16 Krajina or local Serb TO. The SAO Krajina or the local Serbs were allowed

17 to maintain a lightly armed police force and this police force would be

18 monitored by UN police.

19 And the third phase, then, of the Vance Plan consisted of the

20 maintaining of peace and security to allow the return of refugees of all

21 ethnic origins.

22 Now, overall, the Vance Plan, it was always insisted in Security

23 Council resolutions and related reports that it was just an interim

24 arrangement, and that was one of the problems with the implementation of

25 the Vance Plan.

1 Q. What is the time line of the Vance Plan?

2 A. I'm not aware of any specific time line. The resolution that

3 allowed the deployment of the entire peace force provided UNPROFOR an

4 initial mandate of one year. However, in this resolution, it was also

5 insisted, as I mentioned, that it wasn't -- the Vance Plan was intended as

6 an interim arrangement aimed at creating conditions of peace and security

7 and global conditions to allow negotiations on a political solution. So

8 the Vance Plan in no way precluded or preempted a political solution to

9 the conflict.

10 And if I may, this was actually one of the problems because the

11 two main parties involved, Croatia and the Serbs in the SAO Krajina, which

12 in the meanwhile had become the RSK, had a totally different

13 interpretation. Croatia basically saw the Vance Plan as a very short term

14 arrangement and was mindful of situations like Cyprus; i.e., didn't want

15 the UN presence to last, whereas the Serbs in the Krajina, in the RSK,

16 considered the Vance Plan as a confirmation or consolidation of the

17 existence of their own entity at that time.

18 Q. Mr. Theunens, I'm going to ask you some questions now about what

19 you told us. Could you look at page 120 of your report, please. That's

20 page 141 of the B/C/S. There is a map there and, Your Honours, this was

21 one of the colour pages that I handed out yesterday. You can see that map

22 much more clearly on the colour handout.

23 Mr. Theunens, could you tell us what's depicted here on this map

24 on page 120.

25 A. Your Honours, the map on page 120, I found it in documents

1 available to the OTP. From the language, it can be concluded that this is

2 a document, that the map has been produced by the authorities of the

3 entity known as the RSK, and it depicts the United Nations Protected Areas

4 together with areas also known as pink zones. Maybe I should first

5 explain the legend.

6 Q. Please.

7 A. Even though in B/C/S it's clear, but number 1 refers to the part

8 of Western Slavonia which was outside -- where there was no permanent

9 UNPROFOR presence. So it was basically part of Western Slavonia with a

10 significant presence of Serbs but where there was no permanent presence of

11 UN blue helmets, because the UN blue helmets had only a permanent presence

12 within the UNPAs, but the blue helmets would patrol these areas.

13 Number 2 refers to an area known as the Miljevac or Miljevci -

14 I've seen the two spellings - plateau. This was an area which was, based

15 on the information I reviewed, not located in the UNPA itself but in the

16 pink zone. Pink zones were areas outside the UNPAs where there was a

17 significant presence of Serbs.

18 Now, how come that there were pink zones? The problem was that

19 the borders of the UNPAs had been negotiated between November and let's

20 say January 1992. In some areas, the fighting continued. Now, Croatia

21 wanted to have the UNPAs as small as possible. I'm a bit exaggerating but

22 that's more or less how it was, because basically these UNPAs were part of

23 the Croatian territory where the Croatian authorities had no authority.

24 On the other hand, the Serb side wanted to have the UNPAs as large

25 as possible, because the more territory you control, the more powerful you

1 are. Now, a compromise was found, boundaries for the UNPAs were

2 established, but nevertheless when the UN peace forces started to deploy,

3 and that was around April 1992, it was -- the situation was such that

4 there was a significant Serb presence outside the UNPAs, so outside the

5 areas where the UNPROFOR forces were mandated to be deployed, and actually

6 without protection. So that's why pink zones were defined. These were,

7 as I mentioned, areas outside the UNPAs with a significant Serb presence,

8 where there was no permanent presence of UNPROFOR, where UNPROFOR would

9 patrol.

10 So number 2 on the map, Miljevac plateau.

11 Number 3 refers to the area of Maslenica.

12 Number 4 --

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: There are two number 3s. Are there two Maslenicas?

14 THE WITNESS: No, you're correct, Your Honour. I didn't see it

15 there. The number 3 on the right side, so in the southeast, refers to

16 Peruca, the area of the Peruca dam; and the number 3 on the left side

17 refers to the area of the Maslenica bridge as it existed prior to the

18 conflict.

19 Number 4 refers to the area of the Medak.

20 And as I mentioned, this bridge -- this map comes from an RSK

21 source. The areas 3 -- excuse me, 2, 3 -- I mean the two 3s and number 4

22 are areas where Croatian forces carried out operations between June 1992

23 and September 1993. The Croatian military launched an operation in the

24 Miljevac or Miljevci plateau in June 1992. Similar events happened in the

25 area of Maslenica and Peruca in January 1993. And then to conclude, there

1 was also a Croatian military operation incursion in the area known as the

2 Medak pocket in September 1993.

3 The other numbers, number 5 indicates in Western Slavonia, the

4 area -- the part of Western Slavonia where UNPROFOR was deployed.

5 Number 6 refers to Sector South.

6 And number 7 refers to Baranja and Eastern Slavonia, which was

7 also known as Sector East. And I didn't mention Western Slavonia is

8 Sector West. And then the northern part of the -- is it of the blue area

9 was known as Sector North in the UN documents, UNPROFOR documents. So

10 there were three UNPAs covering four sectors, and together with the UNPAs

11 there were also a number of pink zones, three of them we have discussed

12 here with the map.

13 MR. BLACK:

14 Q. Mr. Theunens, you say that in the largest UNPA here there were two

15 sectors. Do you know more approximately where the border was between

16 those two sectors?

17 A. Your Honours, if you look on the map, you see Bihac mentioned in

18 the white area just left of the legend. The limit between Sector North

19 and Sector South would more or less be a horizontal line just south of

20 Bihac but then within the blue area. But these were mainly technical

21 boundaries purely for the use by UNPROFOR.

22 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, this is just for sort of Your Honour's

23 knowledge. I could have him mark this but I hadn't planned to do it but I

24 want to make sure that it's clear. Would you like him to mark that on the

25 map? Or is it necessary?

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe let's mark it now that it has at least been

2 referred to in evidence specifically. Shall we then admit it formally

3 into evidence? And I know it is admitted already, but can we give it an

4 exhibit number.

5 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, this may be an appropriate time to try

6 for the first time the marking on e-court. We could pull this page of his

7 report up on e-court and theoretically he can mark it straight on there,

8 it can be saved and made an exhibit electronically.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And it could probably be marked 6A or 6 something

10 because it is part of Exhibit 6.

11 MR. BLACK: Very well.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's go for the exercise on e-court.

13 MR. BLACK: This is page 120 of the English. I hope that it's in

14 colour in e-court. It's actually something I don't know, Your Honour. If

15 it's not in colour, we can do it the old-fashioned way.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can tell you, the old-fashioned way always works.

17 MR. BLACK: That's the great thing about the old-fashioned way.

18 If I can assist, perhaps, the Court officer and usher, we will

19 need to see the English version, and the pagination is ever so slightly

20 different. It may be about page 140 -- in terms of e-court pagination - I

21 don't want to confuse the issue - on the hard copy of the report it's

22 marked at page 120.

23 Your Honour, why don't we go ahead and do it the old-fashioned

24 way. I can discuss with the registry to make sure we are on the same page

25 for the next one.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Let's do it the old-fashioned way then.

2 MR. BLACK: With the assistance of the usher, if I could pass this

3 to the witness and have him put it on the ELMO it might be the best

4 operation.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

6 MR. BLACK: I could make sure that the audiovisual booth is giving

7 us the ELMO on its channel. Sometimes, Your Honour, even the

8 old-fashioned way has its problems. Is it on?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The very old, old-fashioned way, where you do it on

10 hard copy by hand. It looks like we've got a technical problem with the

11 audiovisual people outside.

12 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. Maybe he can just mark it

13 and, since he's explained it, we don't have to watch him mark it.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no.

15 MR. BLACK:

16 Q. Mr. Theunens, if could you take that map on page 120 that we have

17 been discussing and just draw with your pen the line of demarcation

18 approximately between the two sectors.

19 A. I want to emphasise it's an approximate line because the map is

20 very small. It was only for technical use within UNPROFOR because this

21 was all part of a zone which was subject to the same mandate, so it's just

22 to separate the zones of the various commands.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 MR. BLACK: Thank you. Your Honour, then if that could be made an

25 exhibit and given a number, admitted into evidence, please.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we -- did we agree that we are going to make it

2 a subset of 6 or do you want a new number completely?

3 MR. BLACK: However Your Honour prefers.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: A new number. Okay, then the document is admitted

5 into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 61, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Theunens, at pages 100 and 121 of your report, which are pages

10 142 to 143 in B/C/S, you discuss the creation of the Republika Srpska

11 Krajina, or the RSK, which in English translates essentially as Serbian

12 Republic of Krajina. When was the RSK established?

13 A. RSK as such -- the constitution for the RSK, if I recall, was

14 adopted in December 1991. But because I didn't discuss it really on my

15 document, I mainly focussed on the military aspects, but then the other

16 parties; i.e., we had an SAO Serbian Krajina which we have been discussing

17 extensively for the 1991 events, then there was also an SAO Western

18 Slavonia and an SAO Baranja, Eastern Slavonia and Western Srem, they

19 joined the SAO Krajina, resulting in the RSK, and I believe that process

20 took place in the beginning of 1992.

21 Q. You note on page 122 of your report that the new RSK constitution

22 defined armed forces. What definition did they give?

23 A. Indeed, the armed forces, according to Article 102 of the January

24 1992 RSK constitution, the Territorial Defence of the RSK were the armed

25 forces of the RSK.

1 Q. Was that consistent with the Vance Plan?

2 A. As the Vance Plan stipulated, the disarming, disbanding and

3 demobilising of the TO, of course, there is no problem having a

4 constitution as long as these armed forces are not activated, and abide by

5 the conditions imposed by the Vance Plan, but as is discussed further on

6 in the report, actually, this aspect of the constitution was also put into

7 practice, so the bringing into practice would, for my view, represent a

8 violation of the Vance Plan.

9 Q. You mentioned three phases of the Vance Plan. Which part

10 specifically would this be in conflict with?

11 A. This is specifically in conflict with the second phase because

12 there clearly, according to this phase, the RSK was only allowed to

13 maintain a lightly armed police force.

14 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I'm about to start a new subtopic.

15 Perhaps it's a good time for the break.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: If it's a convenient time, then maybe we can take a

17 break. We will come back at quarter to 11.

18 Court adjourned.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you continue, Mr. Black, just a housekeeping

22 issue. It has come to the Chamber's notice that the courtroom is

23 available for the rest of today. The suggestion was that we could

24 probably sit beyond our morning shift a one hour 15 shift in the

25 afternoon, just to try and cover up. The question now is would that be

1 okay with everybody? And everybody would not only include Defence and the

2 Prosecution but also the interpreters and the other people who are

3 involved in the trial. Let's start with you, Mr. Black.

4 MR. BLACK: It's certainly okay with the Prosecution, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Defence?

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] We agree, Your Honour, yes.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Interpreter, are you speaking

8 on behalf of also the other people in the audio things? Or only on behalf

9 of the interpreters?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, the interpreters are speaking only

11 on behalf the interpreters and we would need to consult all the booths

12 during the break before we could give you a final answer on that.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. If you could do that during

14 the next break and then give us an answer. Do we still have another

15 session before? Thank you very much.

16 Mr. Black.

17 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. One additional matter before

18 I get back to the report. It's come to my attention through the Court

19 officer that Mr. Theunens is working on the time line chart that the

20 Chamber had requested. Because I don't have any contact with him outside

21 of this courtroom now, I just ask:

22 Q. Mr. Theunens, when you've completed that, if you could just

23 mention it at the beginning of a session, whether it's today or Monday,

24 whenever it is, and we'll deal with it at that time.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Black. And then to you

1 too, Mr. Theunens.

2 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Theunens, we are going to move to another topic now. It

4 begins on page 126 of your report, which is page 146 of the B/C/S. There

5 you devote several pages to a discussion of JNA assistance to the RSK TO.

6 We will look at a few documents in a moment, but could you just summarise

7 what kinds of assistance the JNA gave to the RSK TO during the first half

8 of 1992?

9 A. Your Honours, during the first half of 1992, and more specifically

10 the February to April time period, the SSNO, so the Federal Secretariat

11 for People's Defence, and also of course the JNA, which was subordinate to

12 it, provided support in three areas. First of all, organisational

13 aspects, which includes also standing operating procedures. Secondly, the

14 JNA and SSNO assisted in the provision of personnel. And thirdly, SSNO

15 and JNA provided logistical support.

16 Q. Perhaps we could look at document 65 ter number 1210, which has

17 the B/C/S ERN 02077072 to 7088.

18 Mr. Theunens, when this is brought up, hopefully in the English

19 view on the screen in front of you, could you then tell us what this

20 document is and whether it relates to one of those kinds of assistance

21 which you just mentioned.

22 A. Indeed, Your Honours. When we look at the second page --

23 MR. BLACK: I would just note, Your Honours, that at least what I

24 see on my monitor is in B/C/S rather than in English. I don't know if you

25 have the same situation.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mine is in B/C/S.

2 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: The English is on the LiveNote screen.

3 MR. BLACK: Thank you. One thing about e-court, Your Honour; I'm

4 still learning. You may be ahead of me, but I'm told that it's actually

5 possible on our personal computer screens to pull up -- you actually have

6 the choice of the B/C/S or English and decide ourselves. We don't need to

7 try to do that now, but just in the future maybe we can --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have that choice right now.

9 MR. BLACK: Okay.

10 Q. Mr. Theunens, if you could continue. Sorry for the interruption.

11 A. Your Honours, the heading on the left top corner of the document

12 indicated is an order issued by the Federal Secretariat for National or

13 for People's Defence, also known under the acronym SSNO, dated the 27th of

14 February, 1992. And as we could already identify from the cover page,

15 this is an order which deals with organisational and what is called

16 establishment changes in the RSK TO. I will not go, unless you request me

17 to do, into detail for the order, but when you go through it, it lists

18 various units and commands of the RSK TO, both at the RSK level as well as

19 lower level. And therefore it indicates that the structure of the RSK TO

20 in February 1992 is determined by the Federal Secretariat for People's

21 Defence.

22 Q. The Federal Secretariat for People's Defence or National Defence,

23 to what government does that pertain?

24 A. The Federal Secretariat for People's Defence is part of the

25 government of the SFRY, Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

1 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, could that be given a number and

2 admitted, please.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

4 please be given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 62, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. The next document is 65 ter number 1300. The B/C/S ERN is

9 02076683 to 6684.

10 A. Your Honours, this is an order of the 9th JNA Corps, also known as

11 the Knin Corps. I correct myself, it's not an order, it's a regular

12 combat report, which is sent to the 2nd Military District command

13 operation centre. The 2nd Military District was created, established end

14 of 1991, early 1992, and covered the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina with

15 the exception of a small section of eastern Bosnia-Herzegovina. I would

16 like to draw your attention to the last paragraph of this regular combat

17 report, page 4, where we see that -- we can move to the top of the page,

18 please. Okay. Where we see that the order is signed by Major General

19 Ratko Mladic. And for the topic we are discussing, the underlined part is

20 the most relevant. It shows that among the commander's decisions is the

21 continuation to -- of assisting the Territorial Defence staff and the

22 Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and he talks

23 about not only organisational and establishment changes, as we already saw

24 in the SSNO document we just discussed, but also Mladic mentions equipping

25 the Territorial Defence and Ministry of Interior units.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you be able to interpret what "Glina, the

2 town of Drnis and its environs" means?

3 THE WITNESS: From the line here, it's not 100 per cent clear.

4 Normally, during military operations, Your Honour, once -- I'm talking

5 about offensive operations - for example, an attack - once an objective is

6 taken, there is always a risk that there will still be resistance pockets

7 of the enemy somewhere, so then cleaning, or even cleansing, as it is

8 sometimes translated into English, cleaning is used in the context of

9 removing these resistance pockets in order that they don't threaten --

10 they don't represent a threat for you any more.

11 Now, on the other hand, as I've seen from other military

12 documents, "cleaning" can also be used in the context of cleaning; i.e.,

13 that once an area has been taken, there may be, for example, dead animals,

14 and somebody has to remove them because otherwise you have diseases. The

15 military is the only force in the area can be involved in that, so it can

16 also be used in that context.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: But are you able -- are you able to say in the

18 context of this document what that -- what that might mean?

19 THE WITNESS: I'm not able to say so, Your Honours, even though I

20 don't think that, for based on what I know from the situation in Drnis,

21 that "cleaning" is used here in the context of cleaning up resistance

22 pockets.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

24 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could that receive a number and be

25 admitted, please.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

2 please be given an exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 63, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. The next document is 65 ter number 1324, and the B/C/S ERN is

7 02076818 to 6830.

8 Mr. Theunens, when this appears on the screen, could you please

9 tell us what the document is and whether it relates to one of the kinds of

10 assistance that you mentioned a few minutes ago.

11 A. Your Honours, this is an order from the chief of the personnel

12 administration at the Federal Secretariat for People's Defence, and it

13 deals with personnel support. So in the order approximately 72 officers

14 are being mentioned; senior officers, junior officers, and I believe also

15 some non-commissioned officers. And these people are ordered to join the

16 RSK TO at various levels. Some people are sent to the Main Staff, others

17 are sent to different units. And these people are obviously all JNA

18 officers.

19 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could that be given a number and

20 admitted, please.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 64, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 MR. BLACK:

1 Q. The next document is 65 ter number 1314. The B/C/S ERN is

2 01065887. Mr. Theunens, again when this appears, could you please tell us

3 what it is and whether it relates to one of the kinds of assistance that

4 you mentioned earlier.

5 A. Your Honours, this relates to the third aspect of or the third

6 domain of support the SSNO and the JNA provide to the RSK TO. Namely,

7 logistical support. As we discussed earlier today, the second phase of

8 the Vance Plan foresaw the withdrawal of the JNA and HV from the UNPAs.

9 Now, for what the JNA is concerned, this order dated the 3rd of April 1992

10 indicates that real estate and material were handed over to the RSK TO

11 before leaving the area, and this document, this order then clarifies the

12 procedure that needs to be applied for this handover.

13 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could that please also receive a number

14 and be admitted.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 65, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

19 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Theunens, moving to a new topic now, beginning at page 130 of

21 your report, which is page 150 in B/C/S, you address what you call the

22 transformation of RSK TO units into RSK special police, or PJM brigades.

23 First before we look at the documents, why transform units from TO into

24 police units?

25 A. Your Honours, the answer to that question is actually given by the

1 Vance Plan. As we discussed, the second phase of the Vance Plan

2 stipulated the demobilisation, disbanding and disarming of the Territorial

3 Defence, RSK Territorial Defence, and only -- and also stated that only a

4 lightly armed - so only equipped with sidearms - police force would be

5 allowed. Now, by transforming TO into police, you actually circumvent

6 this stipulation of the Vance Plan.

7 Q. Perhaps we could look at the first --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: So it's really -- it's not a question that the

9 answer can be found in the Vance Plan. It's a question of a response to

10 the Vance Plan by way of circumventing some of the requirements of the

11 Vance Plan.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, that's correct.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.

14 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Perhaps we could look at the first document on this topic, which

16 is 65 ter number 244B. The ERN in B/C/S is 02170670.

17 Perhaps while that is being brought up I could again ask you,

18 Mr. Theunens, to summarise, I guess, or to give examples of different ways

19 in which this transformation occurred. Is that something you could do

20 without -- before we see the document?

21 A. Indeed, Your Honours, this transformation was done by moving

22 people from one unit to another; i.e., officers who have -- had been in

23 command or had been part of TO units were transferred to these PGM [sic]

24 brigades, and to the outside world then looked like policemen. Less

25 sophisticated was the repainting of vehicles, so there are orders that

1 indicate that military vehicles that had been used by the JNA and/or the

2 TO were repainted in order to look like police vehicles. And this

3 happened also to some weapons.

4 Q. Could you look at the document on your screen now, please, and

5 tell us what is shown in this document.

6 A. This document is a proposal for promotion for Colonel Borislav

7 Djukic. This proposal is done by -- and we see that on the second page

8 -- the proposal is sent by the president of the RSK, Goran Hadzic. Hadzic

9 had become president of the RSK early 1992 when he replaced Milan Babic.

10 One of the reasons for the removal of Babic was that he refused to accept

11 the Vance Plan. Now, when we go back to the first page of the document,

12 and we go a bit down in the document, we see in the first sentence,

13 Borislav Djukic is identified as an infantry colonel. You may recall from

14 documents we reviewed yesterday that he was, during the latter half of

15 1991, the commander of the 221st Motorised Brigade of the JNA, which was

16 active in the area of Knin. And in this proposal, when we scroll further

17 down in the document, we see in the last paragraph on page 1, that Djukic

18 was, after the proclamation of the RSK, appointed assistant minister of

19 interior and also commander of special police units of the RSK. So this

20 order -- this proposal for promotion provides one example of a senior

21 officer of the JNA who is transferred to the RSK police following the

22 adoption of the Vance Plan.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I take you to a previous point. You mentioned

24 repainting of vehicles to circumvent the requirements of the Vance Plan.

25 But you also mentioned that the Vance Plan required that the police use

1 light vehicles and light ammunition and not heavy things. In this process

2 of circumventing the Vance Plan, what would happen to a repainted vehicle,

3 like the one that appears at page 184? Your coloured pictures, Mr. Black,

4 what you gave yesterday.

5 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It would still not pass as a light vehicle for

7 police use, would it?

8 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I should have been more precise. The

9 repainting concerned jeeps, trucks and light APCs, so armed personnel

10 carriers on wheels. Not heavy weapons because, of course, the UN peace

11 forces would immediately recognise it. Heavy weapons like this one should

12 have been placed in weapon storage areas under dual key system I explained

13 earlier. And there are some examples of repainting in documents mentioned

14 in my report, and as I said it concerns jeeps, trucks and APCs. Now an

15 APC has also can be used for transport of troops.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is an APC?

17 THE WITNESS: An armed personnel carrier, Your Honour. I don't

18 have a picture with me, but the APCs I'm talking about were, for example,

19 of the BOV type, and I can --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is a BOV?

21 THE WITNESS: Unfortunately, I don't have a picture with me, but I

22 can bring it with me after the break, if you allow me to go to my office.

23 It looks like a jeep but an armoured, bigger wheels. There are less

24 windows. I mean, there is more armour on it. It can transport a number

25 of soldiers, or policemen even, and it can be equipped with anti-aircraft

1 defence weapons or machine-guns and so on.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

3 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. We will return to the vehicle

4 on page 184 near the end of his testimony and discuss it.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black.

6 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I believe I need to ask for this document

7 that's on the screen to receive a number and be admitted, please.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 66, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. The next document is 65 ter number 1322. The B/C/S ERN is

14 04006412.

15 Mr. Theunens, please tell us what this document is and whether it

16 relates to any of the types of transformation that you discussed earlier,

17 that you mentioned.

18 A. Your Honours, this is another order from Major General Ratko

19 Mladic. At that time commander of the 9th Corps. And he talks about the

20 provision of arms and equipment for police units of Republika Srpska

21 Krajina. This order covers two aspects of support. It covers the aspect

22 of personnel. Under the heading 1, if we scroll a bit down on the

23 document, okay, it mentions that corps wartime units have been selected to

24 be deployed to the police departments. And if we go further down, it

25 mentions that these -- that if people are transferred, that complete

1 personal equipment has to be issued, including ammunition for personal

2 arms, and arms that people can be issued with.

3 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could that receive a number and be

4 admitted, please.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

6 please be given an exhibit number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 67, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Next document is 65 ter number 1862. The B/C/S ERN is 02805183 to

11 5185.

12 A. Your Honours, this is a report from the Republika Srpska Krajina

13 Ministry of Interior, and on the last page, which is page number 5, we can

14 see that it comes from Minister Milan Martic. It dates from the 19th of

15 May 1992. From the document as such, it is difficult to conclude to whom

16 it is addressed, even though Martic, in the report, makes a number of

17 requests that are addressed to the SSNO, so the Federal Secretariat for

18 People's Defence. Several aspects in relation to the structure of RSK

19 special police units and their transformation are being discussed. And

20 when you look at the heading 1 alpha, which starts on the second page, the

21 top of the second page -- I'm not sure that that is the second page.

22 Q. Can we see the prior page, just to check, please?

23 A. Okay. In my copy it's on two pages but here, I apologise, it's on

24 1 alpha. Martic also makes a number of recommendations with regard to

25 names of MUP, Ministry of Interior units, and their subordination. When

1 we scroll further -- and I assume this will be on the top of the second

2 page --

3 Q. Actually, before you move on, what does it say about the command

4 -- if we could go back to that page, I apologise. The bottom of the first

5 page in this translation, what does it say about the command of those

6 police units?

7 A. It says that the MUP brigades or the police brigades are to be

8 under the command of the RSK MUP, Ministry of Interior in peacetime, and

9 in wartime, and that's in accordance with the RSK constitution discussed

10 earlier in my report, they are to join the RSK Serbian army and be under

11 RSK Serbian army Supreme Command. Now in wartime, Martic recommends that

12 a special battalion is to be formed from the Knin police brigade and this

13 special battalion has to remain under RSK Ministry of Interior command.

14 Q. Who is the RSK minister of the interior at this time?

15 A. At this time, Milan Martic is the minister of interior of the RSK.

16 And Your Honours, on the bottom of -- or further down on this

17 page, it will be then on the next page, on page 2, there is mentioning

18 when we -- at the bottom of this paragraph, you see, for example -- so we

19 have heading 2, the following has been implemented. At the bottom, it

20 says, "Police units have so far received hundred motor vehicles that have

21 been painted."

22 If we go further down in the document, it also mentions that JNA

23 commands, according to Martic, failed to pay the MUP reserve troops for

24 the month of April, so it indicates that payment for the reserve troops of

25 the Ministry of Interior has to be done by the JNA.

1 And Martic also complains or highlights a number of other pledges,

2 apparently, that have not been fulfilled, like the supply of 20.000

3 firearms.

4 Q. Mr. Theunens, why would RSK MUP reserve members be paid by the

5 JNA, if you know?

6 A. Your Honours, I have not analysed the functioning of the RSK

7 Ministry of Interior, nor financial issues related to the forces that are

8 part of that Ministry of Interior, so I'm not in a position to answer that

9 question.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you gave three areas in which the JNA or the

11 SSNO provided assistance to the RSK, one of which involved personnel.

12 Would the payment of the MUP -- RSK MUP not be part of that assistance to

13 personnel?

14 THE WITNESS: It could be, Your Honour, but I want to be very

15 clear: In the report, I only looked at military aspects. It may well be,

16 and I would refer therefore to other witnesses, that the support FRY, or

17 SFRY and subsequently FRY, were providing to the RSK went much further;

18 that they maybe also provided economical support, medical support. And

19 these are issues I didn't look at in detail, so I can only limit myself --

20 or I can only talk about purely military aspects.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: This paragraph says, "The JNA commands failed to

22 pay the MUP reserve troops for the month of April even though the deal was

23 that the MUP members would hold the combat lines until the JNA units

24 withdrew to their new locations." So the MUP here are actually not

25 operating as police people; they are operating as part of the army.

1 THE WITNESS: That is a correct observation, Your Honour, which is

2 also corroborated by a report we may discuss later by the

3 Secretary-General of the United Nations in September 1992 when he informs

4 the Security Council about the progress in the implementation of the Vance

5 Plan.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: If the observation of the Chamber is correct, what

7 in your view -- or in your view, would it be conceivable, therefore, that

8 the RSK MUP would have then been entitled to payment from the SFRY under

9 the auspices of the three-legged assistance that was being given to the

10 RSK by the SFRY?

11 THE WITNESS: I can only refer to this document, this document,

12 Your Honour, that according to Milan Martic there is an agreement about

13 the payment of forces of the Ministry of Interior of the RSK that took

14 over the positions of the JNA. I'm not in a position to make a general

15 assessment on how the members of the Ministry of the Interior of the

16 Republic of Serbian Krajina were paid.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you saying you're not in a position to help

18 this Chamber to put each piece, or as many of the pieces of evidence as

19 come before into the general picture of the broad policy and mission of

20 the SFRY and the RSK?

21 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, in my report, there is a document that

22 was drafted by the RSK Ministry of Defence Spanovic in November 1992, and

23 maybe we will come to that later.

24 MR. BLACK:

25 Q. We can look at it right now. Do you know the 65 ter number?

1 MR. BLACK: Perhaps, Your Honour, before we leave the documents on

2 the screen, could I have that admitted into evidence and be given a

3 number, please?

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let the document be admitted into evidence and be

5 given an exhibit number. Are you going to want it removed now?

6 MR. BLACK: Yes.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Even though we are still talking about it.

8 MR. BLACK: Well, I think Mr. Theunens wants to refer to another

9 document. If it pleases, Your Honour, however.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I defer to your superior knowledge.

11 MR. BLACK: I defer to yours, Your Honour. If this could be given

12 a number now, I think that would make things easier.

13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 68, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Theunens, when you find it, if you could please tell us the 65

17 ter number or the ERN range of the document you'd like to look at.

18 A. Your Honours, this is 65 ter number 248, and it's mentioned in my

19 report on page 157 in the English version.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: 157.

21 THE WITNESS: Indeed, Your Honours. At the bottom of page 157.

22 We have the document now on the e-court monitor. These documents

23 -- is a note drafted by Mr. Spanovic, who was the minister of defence of

24 the RSK at the time. Notes of talks that the RSK political leadership had

25 with Slobodan Milosevic, the president of Serbia, on the 12th of November

1 1992, and when we go a bit further into the document, I think it's the

2 third paragraph - we have it now on the bottom of the monitor - according

3 to these notes drafted by Spanovic -- I will read from the screen:

4 "President Milosevic said that funds for maintaining equipment should be

5 planned via the army of Yugoslavia, and he also said that he would help in

6 the implementation of this, and that the army of Yugoslavia should finance

7 the active officers and civilians who stayed behind in the Krajina."

8 Now, the reason why I was reluctant to answer your question

9 initially, Your Honour, is that I didn't analyse how this payment or how

10 this pledge to pay, to provide payments, was implemented. I can mention

11 in the Milosevic case there was a financial expert who had also been

12 trained to analyse financial issues, who provided an expert report on that

13 issue. My, if I could call it like that, mandate in this, for this

14 report, did not include analysis of financial support.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you recap on the three areas of assistance that

16 you said was being given by the SFRY. Just mention them, don't discuss

17 them.

18 THE WITNESS: No, no. Your Honours, based on the documents I

19 reviewed we can broadly divide them into three categories. The first

20 category is the provision of guidelines and even orders for organisational

21 -- on organisational issues, and also standing operating procedures. The

22 second aspect covers the provision of personnel. And the third aspect

23 covers logistical support, which includes the provision of ammunition,

24 weapons, vehicles, and so on.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Okay. Then I think my

1 question must fall by the wayside.

2 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. Could we please give an

3 exhibit number to this document that's been called on the screen and

4 admit it into evidence?

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

6 please be given an exhibit number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 69, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. A further document on this topic which we can look at quickly, 65

11 ter number 1864. The B/C/S ERN is 02807718 to 7719.

12 Mr. Theunens, please tell us what this document is and whether it

13 relates to one of the kinds of transformation that you mentioned.

14 A. Your Honours, this is an order by the RSK municipal TO staff in

15 Benkovac - Benkovac is located in the vicinity of Knin - dated the 11th of

16 September 1992. And under the heading "Hereby I order" a number of

17 instructions are given by the commander, and I would like to draw your

18 attention to the heading number 5, which should be on the second page.

19 This talks about what we discussed earlier, so logistical support whereby

20 JNA vehicles that have remained behind, because by that date, 11th of

21 September 1992, the withdrawal of the JNA has been completed, so that JNA

22 vehicles are being handed over actually to the TO. So it's not really a

23 transformation of TO into police, it is more support by the JNA and the

24 SSNO to the TO in this particular case.

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could that receive a number and be

1 admitted, please.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

3 please be given an exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 70, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. I'll begin at page 132, which is 152 of the B/C/S. Mr. Theunens,

8 you give some more details about two particular examples of personnel.

9 Just if you could quickly name the two people that you discuss there?

10 A. Your Honours, I discuss Colonel Milan Novakovic and Colonel

11 Borislav Djukic. For Colonel Borislav Djukic, we saw a document that

12 indicated that he was transformed from an infantry colonel who had been a

13 brigade commander, that he was transformed into a commander of a special

14 police brigade. In the report I provide additional documents that

15 illustrate this transformation or reassignment, and the same applies to

16 Colonel Milan Novakovic, who, for example, in July 1992, was a commander

17 of a tactical group of the RSK -- of the RSK that participated in

18 operations in Bosnia-Herzegovina to assist in establishing the so-called

19 Posavina corridor.

20 Q. I'll just ask you to look quickly at two documents that relate to

21 Djukic. The first one is 65 ter number 2070. The B/C/S ERN is 04142892

22 to 2893.

23 A. Your Honours, this is a -- this document is a certificate issued

24 by the Ministry of Interior of the Republika Srpska Krajina. It is

25 signed, as we can see on the last page, by Milan Martic, and it is a

1 certificate to Borislav Djukic, who by then is a major general in the

2 infantry, JNA infantry, to show or to prove that Djukic has been assigned

3 to the post of Major General, or to the rank, actually, of Major General

4 in the Knin PGM administration. "PGM" stands for "special police

5 milicija," which was the name commonly used among other units but in

6 particular for the TO units that had been transformed into police units in

7 the RSK.

8 Q. Mr. Theunens, could you tell us which page of the document it is?

9 I didn't see that on the screen.

10 A. Excuse me, it's on the first page of the document, that the

11 information I provided.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 132 of the report? Or --

13 MR. BLACK: I'm sorry, I meant of the document, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, okay.

15 THE WITNESS: So on the first page you see the duties of Djukic

16 and his rank at the time of the drafting of this document, 30th of

17 September 1992. And it also mentions, and I didn't pay attention to that,

18 at the bottom of the first page, that Djukic would like to be assigned to

19 the 1st Military District which was part of, at that time, the VJ, so the

20 armed force of Serbia Montenegro, with headquarters in Novi Sad. I

21 believe that it was called 1st Army at that time, but that's not a key

22 issue. It shows that JNA officers who were transferred to the PGM still

23 had an opportunity to return to the VJ, so the successive structure of the

24 JNA.

25 MR. BLACK:

1 Q. Mr. Theunens, one further question, just to clarify: If we go to

2 the top of this first page, from -- all the way to the top, please, it

3 says that -- well, who is the originator of this document, which

4 administration?

5 A. The special police units, PGM administration of the Ministry of

6 Interior of the Republika Srpska Krajina.

7 Q. Who signs this document?

8 A. Milan Martic. That's visible on the second page.

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I ask you if this is really a signature on the

10 original Serb document. It's just a stamp and the name Martic. It may

11 not be signed. Could we look at the original.

12 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: In Cyrillic.

14 THE WITNESS: It's correct, Your Honour. The translation says

15 "signed and stamped," but I think when you look carefully on the B/C/S

16 version, because this is a scanned document, I think there is an

17 indication of a signature but it's largely covered by the stamp.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have difficulty seeing a signature.

19 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, it may be helpful, we could try to pull

20 the actual original document from the evidence unit, if you want to look

21 at it.

22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, please.

23 MR. BLACK: We could do that at the next break.

24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please.

25 MR. BLACK: If we have the original. In some cases all we have is

1 a photocopy, but we can get the best original copy. What we have in the

2 evidence unit, we can bring that.

3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.

4 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Theunens, what would be the significance of whether or not

6 this document is signed and stamped or only stamped? What does that

7 signify?

8 A. Normally -- Your Honours, normally you would need both. A

9 signature without a stamp can also raise issues of authenticity in the

10 sense that in these official organisations, the stamp is used to confirm

11 that it comes from that administration, and then the signature, of course,

12 identifies the person who signed the document. Now, without a signature,

13 it is difficult. It could even be just a draft document then if it's not

14 signed, although it's unusual to stamp a draft document.

15 Now, it can also happen, and I'm talking now about military

16 documents, that the name has already been put under the document but that

17 somebody else signs, and then, of course, it should be indicated that the

18 other person -- for example, if the commander isn't there, then the chief

19 of staff of a unit from brigade level onwards is authorised to sign, and

20 he should say then for the commander. I've seen also that sometimes the

21 "for" is forgotten, so -- but again it best would be to have both

22 indications, the stamp and the signature.

23 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, unless you have further questions, maybe

24 we can come back to this when we have the original.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed.

1 MR. BLACK:

2 Q. I'd like to ask you to look at --

3 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, just a procedural question: Would you

4 prefer to mark this for identification now and then we can admit it or not

5 admit it at the time, or should I just leave it and we can come back and

6 number it later?

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's mark it for identification. Then we will

8 come back to it. May it be given an MFI number, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That will be MFI number 1.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. If we could look now at 65 ter number 1867, with the B/C/S ERN

13 02808671, 8673.

14 Mr. Theunens, when you've found that document, could you just

15 briefly tell us what this document is and what it signifies. There it's

16 come up on the screen now.

17 A. Your Honours, this document originates from the special police

18 unit's - PGM - command at the Ministry of Interior of the RSK, and when we

19 go to the -- excuse me, it's dated 1st of October. And it concerns the

20 solemn oath of police cadets, an order to organise this ceremony. When we

21 go to the last page, which should be page 5 ...

22 Q. If we could see the preceding page, please.

23 A. There, Your Honours, when we go a bit downwards we can see who

24 signed the document. It is again Borislav Djukic who signs here as

25 commander of special units command in Knin, and he also has the title of

1 deputy minister.

2 MR. BLACK: Could that be given a number and admitted into

3 evidence, please, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document may be given -- I beg your pardon, the

5 document is admitted into evidence, and may it please be given an exhibit

6 number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 72, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. I won't ask to look at the other documents that refer to Djukic

11 and Novakovic. They are referred to in the report. Move to another

12 aspect of this, could we look at 65 ter number 1852, please. The B/C/S

13 ERN is 02032603 to 2619.

14 And Mr. Theunens, when it comes up on the screen, could you please

15 tell us what it is and whether or not it relates to this issue of

16 transformation.

17 A. Your Honours, this is, as it is mentioned, a newsletter, so it's

18 used for morale and informative purposes, of the 70th Infantry Brigade of

19 the, at that time still the RSK TO. And it mentions in the document, if

20 we scroll into the document, next page, it should -- I think it's on the

21 second or the third page. So it gives a history of the Plaski TO Brigade

22 but the part we are interested in covers the spring 1992 time period, so I

23 think if we could further scroll down. Okay, further scroll down. I

24 think we have to go to the next page. We still have to go down. I

25 apologise. It takes more time but I don't have the hard copy with me so

1 it takes a bit -- still next page - takes more time. Okay. We scroll

2 down. Yes. Mm-hmm. Okay. Now we go to the next page. We go to the

3 bottom of the page. We go a little bit upwards. Okay. Thank you.

4 It mentions there that it illustrates a process we mentioned

5 earlier, transformation of TO units into PGM units, where in this

6 paragraph it states that the brigade, so the Plaski TO Brigade, was - and

7 it may have received another name in the meanwhile - but was demobilised

8 between 24th of August and the 15th of -- 24th of July and the 15th of

9 August 1992, and as the text says, at the same time, re-established as a

10 PGM battalion, special police milicija, and the brigade was established

11 according to peacetime establishment, as it is said in the document.

12 So this just illustrates the transformation of TO into PGM.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it PGM or PJM?

14 THE WITNESS: Sorry, PJM. I'm sorry, Your Honours, it should be a

15 J.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's all right, because we are now getting G on

17 the screen instead of J.

18 THE WITNESS: I apologise. It's the French influence. So

19 wherever I said "PGM" it should be "PJM."

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hope the interpreters hear that.

21 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour, for that clarification. Could

22 this document receive a number and be admitted into evidence, please.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence, and please

24 give it an exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 73, Your Honours.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MR. BLACK:

3 Q. One further document on this same issue is 65 ter number 2072,

4 B/C/S ERN 04143152 to 3154.

5 A. Indeed, Your Honours, this is an order for demobilisation, which

6 is issued by, as we can see at the bottom of the document, Lieutenant

7 General Milan Torbica - I think it's on the third page - who was at that

8 time the commander of the RSK TO. When we go back to the first page of

9 the document, so we see to whom the order is addressed, the 6th zone of

10 STO and logistical base, and just below that we see what Your Honour

11 already mentioned. If you could stop, could go up a bit again. Okay.

12 What Your Honour already mentioned earlier, that there is indeed a

13 handover of TO to PJM for what is called the front line duties. And this

14 handover is also explained under the heading 1, where it's clearly stated

15 the front line is being taken over by the PJM forces.

16 Further on in the order, Torbica gives additional instructions on

17 how this order has to be implemented. He mentions, for example, under the

18 heading 5, that people working at the TO headquarters and commands and

19 another institutions have to wear civilian clothes. Now, that clearly

20 illustrates that there is an effort to demilitarise, but it doesn't -- it

21 shows actually the contrary of a disorganisation or of a disbanding as was

22 prescribed by the Vance Plan because the structure still remains active,

23 even though the units would probably be demobilised or they have been

24 transformed into PJM. Commanding officers who have not been reassigned to

25 the PJM, they remain in the TO commands and other institutions, albeit in

1 civilian clothes, working according to timings indicated in the order.

2 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this document also receive a number

3 and be admitted into evidence, please.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May we

5 please give it an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 74, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

8 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Before we leave section 3 of the report, there is one more

10 document, Mr. Theunens, which you actually referred to earlier. It's 65

11 ter number 1360, and the ERN is 00242533 to 2544.

12 MR. BLACK: Actually I know, Your Honour, that we don't have a

13 B/C/S translation of this UN report. It was admitted into Milosevic and

14 we just recently realised that there is no B/C/S version. The relevant

15 passages, however, are contained in the report and therefore they were

16 translated into B/C/S when the report was translated into B/C/S.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black. Are we getting this report?

18 MR. BLACK:

19 Q. Mr. Theunens, could you please tell us what this is and what

20 relevance it has.

21 A. Your Honours, this is a report I mentioned earlier. It's a report

22 by the Secretary-General of the United Nations to the Security Council, to

23 inform the members of the Security Council of the status of implementation

24 of the UN Resolutions 743 and 762. More specifically, the

25 Secretary-General informs the Security Council about the status of

1 implementation of the Vance Plan. When I was working in the UNPROFOR UNPF

2 headquarters, so from December 1994 until October 1995, similar reports

3 were also drafted, and there I learned that the information that is

4 included in the report is based or is provided by the people on the field.

5 So members of UNPROFOR, the force commander and his staff, and members of

6 UN civil affairs and political affairs, they will send a draft report to

7 the department of peacekeeping operations within the UN, and then there

8 may be an exchange of questions and answers to further improve the report,

9 and this report is then used as the basis for the report the

10 Secretary-General sends to the Security Council. This report is -- this

11 particular report is important because the Secretary-General of the United

12 Nations informs the Security Council of the problems, serious problems,

13 that are created by the PJM units. And this is more specifically visible

14 in the paragraphs 4, which is on the next page, where the

15 Secretary-General provides information on the status of the

16 demilitarisation phase of the Vance Plan, and he in the middle, in the

17 body of the paragraph, he talks about the special police, or what we have

18 identified earlier as the PJM, and he basically provides the same

19 information as we have been going through by looking at JNA, VJ and SAO

20 Krajina TO and MUP documents. The Secretary-General even uses the word

21 "paramilitary forces" in his report. And he uses that in an illegal

22 context.

23 More information is also provided in the paragraph 6, which is on

24 the next page. And in paragraph 6, the Secretary-General specifically

25 addresses the protection of the non-Serb population who are still living

1 in the UNPAs. The Secretary-General uses the expression "ethnic cleansing

2 by paramilitary units."

3 I would also address -- like to address -- ask, or draw your

4 attention to the paragraphs 10 to 18, where according to the heading in

5 the report, the Secretary-General, acts of terrorism are being discussed,

6 and these acts of terrorism go much wider, of course, than the process of

7 transformation of TO into PJM, but they directly refer to the situation as

8 it is within the UNPAs.

9 In the context of my report, paragraph 14 is quite relevant,

10 because it directly addresses the situation in Sector South. Sector

11 South, which covers the part of the entity known as RSK going from the

12 area of Knin towards the north, and it mentions, for example, incidents

13 related to the deterioration of law and order and that the non-Serb

14 population is specifically targeted by these incidents.

15 Paragraph 17 shows the relationship between the regular civil

16 police in the -- or the regular RSK civil police in the UNPAs and the

17 special police, or PJM.

18 Now, unless you want to address the other paragraphs in the

19 report, I would like to move to paragraphs 34 and 35.

20 In paragraph 34, Your Honours, the UN Secretary-General writes

21 that the main cause of the deterioration of the situation in the UNPAs has

22 been the Knin -- what he calls the Knin authority's decision to create new

23 paramilitary forces. These paramilitary forces are the PJM we discussed

24 earlier and which are mentioned in the beginning of the report.

25 Paragraph 35 is also quite important because it addresses the

1 third phase of the Vance Plan, maintaining peace and security in order to

2 allow a return of refugees. And particularly the end of the paragraph is

3 quite revealing in the context of what I mentioned when we looked at the

4 map and I spoke about various military operations Croatia had launched

5 against a number of pink zones. I don't think the Secretary-General wants

6 to create any justification for Croatia. On the contrary, I mean this

7 report dates from long before the military operations, but the UN

8 Secretary-General wants to draw the attention of the members of the

9 Security Council on the serious implications the way the Knin authorities

10 are implementing the Vance Plan may have in the future.

11 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this receive a number and be

12 admitted into evidence, please.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is given -- is admitted into evidence,

14 and may it please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 75, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour, and I think we are at the time

18 for the next break.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are at the time for the next break, and if it is

20 convenient for you, then the Court will adjourn and it will reconvene at

21 half past 12. Court adjourned.

22 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: If we can once again attend to housekeeping

25 matters, the Chamber has received information that the interpreters are

1 willing to sit for an extra session this afternoon but they suggest that

2 we go up to 1.30 for this session and take a one-hour lunch break, to

3 2.30, and then start from 2.30 to 1545 this afternoon. I guess that would

4 be okay with everybody. So it seems like a sound suggestion.

5 MR. BLACK: That seems acceptable to the Prosecution, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Milovancevic?

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it's acceptable to the

8 Defence as well, and we hope that the expert witness will also be able to

9 follow the proceedings.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

11 Then sometime during this week, our case had been removed from the

12 schedule on Monday the -- on the 6th and 7th of February. Just in case

13 the parties might have received a schedule where we were removed, I just

14 want to remind you that we are back on schedule on those days. And not

15 only that, we have also been given two extra days, on the 9th and 10th of

16 February. Are we in a position to proceed on those two days?

17 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, we are. But I would inquire, are those

18 certain or are those tentative, the 9th and the 10th?

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: They have written that it's in here to be

20 confirmed. They will be confirmed if we can say we can take them.

21 MR. WHITING: Certainly; then that's no problem. We can fill

22 those days.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can fill those days?

24 MR. WHITING: Yes.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] We agree, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We will then sit on the 6,

3 7th, 9th, 10th of February. Okay, thank you. That's all the Bench -- the

4 Chamber had in terms of housekeeping. Over to you, Mr. Black.

5 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

6 Q. As we said we would do, we went to the evidence unit to try to

7 find the best copy of what's been marked as MFI 1. Unfortunately, we

8 don't have the original. We just have our -- our original is actually a

9 photocopy. We don't have the actual with ink on it, but perhaps -- I

10 don't know if Your Honours would like me to hand up the best copy that we

11 have to Your Honours to look at the signature, or perhaps pass it to the

12 witness to see if he can discern a signature there. However you prefer.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe if you can pass a copy -- I see you seem to

14 have two copies there.

15 MR. BLACK: No, it's two pages of one document, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe if it can go around, I would imagine that the

17 Defence would also like to have sight of it. If you can first give it to

18 the witness and then to the Defence, and then you can hand it up to the

19 Court. Let's just have a look at it.

20 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. With the usher's assistance,

21 I will do that.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Okay. The suggestion is also that it

23 could be put on the ELMO, then we can all see it.

24 MR. BLACK: Ah, very well. Just a reminder, Your Honours, you'll

25 need to press "video evidence" now to see the ELMO.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

2 MR. BLACK: We may still be having technical problems. I'm not

3 sure. Perhaps the usher can, by looking at the monitor, adjust and move

4 the ELMO machine itself. That should -- there we go.

5 Q. Mr. Theunens, by looking at that copy of the document that's on

6 the ELMO now, can you discern whether or not it has a signature?

7 A. Indeed, Your Honours, maybe I can show it with my pen, but there

8 is a signature with -- which, based on the poor quality still, taking into

9 account the poor quality of the copy, corresponds with what I've seen as

10 the signature of Milan Martic on other documents.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can see what looks like a signature on that.

12 I've seen that kind of sign on documents that are purported to be signed

13 by Mr. Martic.

14 THE WITNESS: And if I understand well, now we have the document

15 where there are doubts about the signature, but I think, again taking into

16 account the poor quality of the scanned copy, that when you start at the

17 top, there is something that looks quite similar to what could be

18 identified as a signature on the first document that was put on the ELMO,

19 and maybe we can put them both together with the signature block.

20 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, to be clear, I believe these are two

21 pages of one document. I'd ask the witness just to read the ERN numbers

22 that appear at the top of both of those pages, please.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may do so, Mr. Theunens.

24 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, the ERNs are 0414-2893 and 0414-2892.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

1 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, those correspond to the ERN range of 65

2 ter number 2070. On this basis I would now ask that it be admitted into

3 evidence?

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is then admitted into evidence. May

5 it please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 71, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much. We are finished with those

9 documents. Thank you, Mr. Usher.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

11 MR. BLACK:

12 Q. Mr. Theunens, we are now ready to move to the final section of

13 your report, section 4, which deals with the Serb army of Krajina, or SVK.

14 This starts at page 139 of your report, which is page 158 in the B/C/S.

15 Consequently I want to shift your focus now away from the Territorial

16 Defence to the SVK. First of all, tell us what the SVK was and when it

17 was established, please.

18 A. Your Honours, SVK stands for Srpska Vojska Krajina. It means

19 Serbian armed forces of the Krajina, and it was actually an armed force

20 conceived as the successor structure of the RSK TO which, in the

21 meanwhile, had been transformed largely into PJM units.

22 The creation of the SVK consisted of two phases. First of all, we

23 have a number of changes to the constitution of the RSK which are adopted

24 on the 18th of May 1992, and then we have a number of orders that are

25 issued in October-November 1992, which implement these changes to the

1 constitution.

2 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I think we don't need to look at each of

3 those documents. I just note that they are discussed at pages 141 to 143

4 of the report in English; 160 to 164 in B/C/S.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

6 MR. BLACK:

7 Q. Mr. Theunens, did the Accused Milan Martic hold a rank in the SVK?

8 A. Your Honours, on page 143 in the English version of the report, at

9 the bottom, I make reference to 65 ter number 713, which is a decree for

10 an extraordinary promotion of Milan Martic to the rank of Colonel General

11 of the Serbian army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. This decree is

12 signed by Goran Hadzic who was at that time the president of the entity

13 known as the RSK.

14 Q. If I could ask you to pause. A document has just come up on our

15 screen. If it could be put in the English version, please. Is this the

16 document that you're discussing, Mr. Theunens?

17 A. Indeed, Your Honours. And when we scroll a bit to the bottom, we

18 can see who signed -- we see the contents of the decree and also who

19 signed it. Your Honours, this document is dated the 16th of July 1992.

20 Even though the decree doesn't include any reference to the reasons for

21 this extraordinary promotion, when we look at events that were taking

22 place in the area during that time period, we can link this promotion of

23 Milan Martic to his involvement in the operations in the so-called

24 Posavina corridor in northern Bosnia-Herzegovina in June 1992.

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this document be given a number and

1 admitted into evidence, please.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence, and may it

3 please be given an exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 76, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

6 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. The next exhibit I'd like to look at, or the next document, pardon

8 me, is 65 ter number 712; B/C/S ERN 02170842 to 0843. Mr. Theunens, could

9 you please tell us what this document is and whether it relates to what

10 you're now discussing.

11 A. Your Honours, this is a letter from Ministry of Interior of the

12 RSK, office of the minister, signed by the minister himself, Milan Martic,

13 as we can see on the last page, which is page number 4. When we go back

14 to the first page, we see that the letter is addressed to a number of

15 political authorities in the Banija and Kordun area. Banija and Kordun

16 are located in the area of Croatia north of the Bihac enclave; i.e., more

17 or less covered by Sector North in the map we discussed earlier. And when

18 we go to the first paragraph of the document, we see that Milan Martic

19 makes reference to the fact that he and his associates are, and I quote,

20 "On a distant and very difficult front in the areas of Derventa, Modrica

21 and Poljaci waging decisive battles for the future, honour, religion and

22 dignity of the Serbian people in both Serbian Krajinas."

23 The areas of Derventa, Modrica and Poljaci are located in an area

24 we also know as the Posavina corridor. Posavina refers to valley of the

25 Sava River, the Sava being the border there between Bosnia-Herzegovina and

1 Croatia. And when Milan Martic speaks about both Serbian Krajinas, it

2 means the Serbian Krajina on the territory of Croatia as well as the

3 Serbian Krajina in the western part of Bosnia-Herzegovina, also known as

4 Bosanska Krajina.

5 Q. Mr. Theunens, thank you. We'll return to the topic of the

6 Posavina corridor in a few minutes. But just so -- could you tell us,

7 does this rank that Martic held, does that mean he had a position in the

8 SVK with troops under his command, or what's the significance of that

9 rank, if any, that you can discern?

10 A. Your Honours, based on the documents I reviewed, it is only after

11 Milan Martic became president of the RSK in January 1994 that he occupied

12 a function of de jure authority over the armed forces. I have not been

13 able to locate any documents indicating that between the date of promotion

14 to Colonel General and January 1994 Milan Martic exercised command over

15 military units except for the times when he and what is called in this

16 document his associates were involved in operations in the corridor, the

17 Posavina corridor. These operations in the Posavina corridor took place

18 during two time periods; June-July 1992 and November 1994.

19 Q. Thank you. We will have more details on the Posavina corridor in

20 a moment.

21 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I neglected to ask that the last document

22 we showed on the screen be given a number and admitted into evidence,

23 please.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

25 please be given an exhibit number.

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 77, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

3 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much.

4 Q. Mr. Theunens, sticking now with the de jure elements of command

5 over the SVK, who was the ultimate commander of the SVK?

6 A. Your Honours, the president of the RSK was the Supreme Commander

7 over the SVK. And this was further specified in April 1993, when the RSK

8 Assembly adopted a number of amendments to the constitution, and one of

9 these amendments created the RSK Supreme Defence Council.

10 Q. Perhaps, Your Honour, we could look at 65 ter number 1391, which

11 is a decision dated 22nd April 1993. The B/C/S ERN is 02166103. If we

12 could please see the English on the monitors.

13 A. If we go down a bit in the document, we see what the document is

14 about. This is -- as I mentioned, this is the decision to promulgate a

15 number of amendments to the constitution of the RSK. Amendment number XIV

16 - so Roman 14 - determined the composition of the RSK Supreme Defence

17 Council.

18 Q. If we could please see the next page in the English version on the

19 monitors. Thank you.

20 Mr. Theunens, can you walk us through? I think it may be even the

21 next page.

22 A. Yes, the next page. I would prefer to address these amendments in

23 the order that I addressed them in my report, which is not the same as the

24 one in the document. So amendment 40 --

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, we paused because we heard the signal

1 for an emergency message, which I can't hear. I think the Court officer

2 is trying to figure out what's being said.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black. I was wondering what was

4 happening.

5 We are still trying to determine what it is but it looks like an

6 emergency warning about water somewhere

7 MR. BLACK: Shall I proceed, Your Honour, or should we wait?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe let's wait because then we are going to cross

9 with these people.

10 It's now been determined that it is actually on water. We can

11 proceed.

12 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

14 MR. BLACK:

15 Q. Mr. Theunens, I apologise for the interruption. I believe you

16 were proceeding -- you were going to direct us to amendment 14 and tell us

17 what's said there.

18 A. Indeed, Your Honours, amendment 14 to the RSK constitution

19 determines the members of the RSK Supreme Defence Council. The RSK

20 Supreme Defence Council will have five members -- shall I continue?

21 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I can't even understand it. Maybe we

22 should proceed and rely on the Court officer to warn us if we need to take

23 action.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Black, I didn't hear what you said.

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I was just saying that because I couldn't

1 understand the message, maybe we could proceed and the Court officer would

2 warn us if we needed to take action.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Just to warn you, it is a water -- about --

4 there is a warning about water. The warning says please don't drink the

5 water. I guess the ones in your jugs you might drink now because -- but I

6 suppose the water they mean is don't go and drink water from the taps.

7 MR. BLACK: Okay. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, to continue, so amendment 14 lists the

10 members of the RSK Supreme Defence Council, so five members; the president

11 of the republic, the Prime Minister, the minister of interior, the

12 minister of defence, and the commander of what is called the Serbian army

13 of Krajina. When we go back to the beginning of this document, amendment

14 13 -- actually, it's just one page back, or the top of this page, so

15 amendment 13. Amendment 13 clarifies the responsibility of the president

16 of the republic now that this Supreme Defence Council has been

17 established, and it states that the president of the republic leads the

18 armed forces in peace and wartime in accordance with the RSK constitution

19 and with decisions of the RSK Supreme Defence Council he presides. So it

20 means that the RSK -- the president of the republic presides the RSK

21 Supreme Defence Council and, of course, he's the Supreme Commander.

22 Amendment 12 states that the commander of the Serbian army of

23 Krajina will be appointed by the Assembly of the RSK on the proposal of

24 the RSK Supreme Defence Council.

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this document receive a number and

1 be admitted, please?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

3 please be given an exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 78, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Another document on the same topic is 65 ter number 2077, the

8 B/C/S ERN I believe is 03639756 to 9800.

9 Mr. Theunens, this is a somewhat longer document, so if you could

10 again help us to identify which passages are relevant to us.

11 A. Your Honours, so these are amendments -- no, I apologise. The

12 amendments that were done or that were adopted to the RSK constitution

13 were then also reflected in the RSK law on defence which was adopted on

14 the 20th of April 1993. I make reference to the most relevant Articles

15 at, least from the context of my report. In my report, the Articles 8, 40

16 -- for example, 40, if we scroll down a bit, states that the president

17 runs the army in peace and wartime in accordance with decisions of the

18 Supreme Defence Council. The reference to the RSK constitution is not

19 included but I don't think that is an issue.

20 Article 41, which is not included in this translation, maybe it

21 comes further, but any way you see also Article 42, for example, these are

22 all straightforward articles of a law on defence that further detail the

23 amendments to the RSK constitution that had been adopted before. And we

24 can conclude from both the RSK -- both the amendments and the law on

25 defence that the president of the RSK leads the armed forces in peacetime

1 and in wartime in accordance with the RSK constitution and the decisions

2 of the RSK Supreme Defence Council, which he presides.

3 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, could this receive a number and be

4 admitted into evidence, please.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

6 please be given an exhibit number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 79, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Theunens, beginning at page 155 of your report, which are

11 pages 175, 176 in B/C/S, you note that following his election as the RSK

12 president, Mr. Martic replaced the commander of the SVK. Who did Milan

13 Martic name as the new SVK commander?

14 A. Milan Martic named a Major General Milan Celeketic as the new

15 commander of the SVK, and he did this, based on the document I saw, in

16 accordance with the suggestion of the RSK Supreme Defence Council. I

17 would like to add that Milan Celeketic was a JNA officer who was born in

18 the part of Serbia known as Vojvodina. So he comes from Kikinda. I

19 mention this because quite often, in the documents we discussed earlier,

20 when we spoke about personnel support, the people that were sent, or some

21 of them even volunteered, to serve in the RSK TO or the SVK were people

22 who had been born in Croatia or in the area known as the Krajina. This

23 does not apply to Milan Celeketic as he was born in Kikinda, a village in

24 Vojvodina, in Serbia.

25 Q. Perhaps we could look at 65 ter number 1872. ERN in B/C/S is

1 02804585.

2 Mr. Theunens, could you look at this document and tell us if it

3 has relevance to what you just said.

4 A. Indeed, Your Honours, this is the confirmation of what I just

5 explained, and the decree mentions the date of appointment, that's the

6 22nd of February 1994, and it was Milan Martic who signed the decree as

7 president of the republic.

8 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, could this receive a number and be

9 admitted, please?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

11 please be given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 80, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. The next document is 65 ter number 261. ERN in B/C/S is 02011845.

16 Mr. Theunens, what is this document?

17 A. Your Honours, this is a decree on a special or an extraordinary

18 promotion of Milan Celeketic. On the same day as he was appointed

19 commander of the SVK, he's also promoted to a higher rank, the rank of

20 Major General in the Serbian army of Krajina, and the decree is signed by

21 the president of the republic, Milan Martic.

22 MR. BLACK: Could this be given a number and admitted, please,

23 Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

25 please be given an exhibit number.

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 81, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Another document, 65 ter number 1873, has the ERN in B/C/S of

5 02077368, if we could please see that one.

6 Mr. Theunens, what does this document tell us?

7 A. Your Honours, this document is a written record of the handover of

8 powers from Mile Novakovic, who was the previous commander of the SVK, to

9 Milan Celeketic, who is the new commander of the SVK.

10 It also shows, when we look at the last paragraph, that Milan

11 Martic was involved in this handover process, as doing a transfer of

12 duty. As the document states, all corps commands were toured or visited,

13 and then during the final transfer, Novakovic to Celeketic, Milan Martic

14 was present as well as other -- as well as, excuse me, senior SVK

15 officers.

16 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, could this receive a number and be

17 admitted, please.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it be

19 given an exhibit number, please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 82, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Final document on this particular subissue is 65 ter number 1874.

24 The B/C/S ERN is 02806584.

25 Mr. Theunens, when it appears on the screen if you could please

1 tell us what this document shows us and include the date of the document,

2 please.

3 A. Your Honours, this is a report from the Main Staff -- or the

4 General Staff, excuse me, of the Serbian army of Krajina, in which a

5 member of the Main Staff informs the members of the SVK that Major General

6 Milan Celeketic has been promoted to the rank of Lieutenant General by

7 decree of the president of the republic, Milan Martic. This promotion to

8 Lieutenant General happens, when we think back of the documents we

9 discussed earlier, a bit more than one year after the promotion of Milan

10 Celeketic to Major General.

11 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this receive a number and be

12 admitted, please.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

14 please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 83, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Theunens, from page 156 up until page 168 of your report -

19 those pages are 177 to 187 in the B/C/S translation - you discuss the

20 relations between the SVK and the VJ. Now, my first question for you,

21 before we spoke of the JNA and now we speak of the VJ. Could you please

22 explain.

23 A. Your Honours, in April 1992, when FRY was declared -- FRY consists

24 of Serbia and Montenegro; FRY stands for Federal Republic of Yugoslavia --

25 then also the armed forces were transformed from VJ -- excuse me, from

1 JNA, Yugoslav People's Army, into VJ, Vojska Jugoslavija, armed forces of

2 Yugoslavia. There were also a number of doctrinal changes but I don't

3 think we need to address them here. So it's just the successor structure

4 of the JNA.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Theunens. Just briefly, could you summarise the

6 relationship between the SVK and the VJ?

7 A. Based on the documents I reviewed, Your Honours, these relations

8 were in fact a continuation of the relations that already existed between

9 the RSK TO and the JNA. I mean by this that the VJ continued to provide

10 support to the SVK. This support consisted of personnel support,

11 logistical support - so officers were sent, logistical supplies were

12 provided - as well as what I call operational support. What I mean by

13 this in the report that it's not the use or the deployment of combat units

14 but the fact that members of the Main Staff of the SVK and members of the

15 General Staff of the VJ meet to discuss operational issues. These things

16 are discussed in the report under the heading Coordination Mechanisms.

17 From the documents I reviewed, it's clear that there were meetings

18 between the staffs to coordinate certain issues. There was also -- it is

19 also clear that operational reports from the SVK, we called in military

20 language, daily sit-reps, situation reports, were sent from the SVK to not

21 only the General Staff of the VJ but also certain political leaders in

22 FRY, including the president of Serbia, Slobodan Milosevic. And when I

23 say "VJ," more specifically, the chief of General Staff of the VJ, General

24 Perisic.

25 Q. What role, if any, did the Accused Milan Martic have in these

1 SVK-VJ relationships?

2 A. Your Honours, in the report I have included a number of letters

3 sent, or requests sent by Milan Martic to officials in FRY, so in

4 Yugoslavia, and those include the chief of General Staff of the VJ as well

5 as the president of the Republic of Serbia, Slobodan Milosevic. One of

6 the documents we looked at earlier that was 65 ter number 248, which is

7 mentioned in the -- in my report on page 157.

8 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, perhaps if we could pull that document

9 up on the e-court. I believe we've already exhibited it. If I could be

10 reminded of the exhibit number by the Court officer, that would be great.

11 Actually, I'm not sure that we have seen this. Ah, yes.

12 THE WITNESS: Maybe I can just mention, as we have discussed the

13 document, that here Milan Martic is among the RSK ministers who attends

14 the meeting with President Milosevic of Serbia and other officials of the

15 Republic of Serbia. And he attends the meeting -- Milan Martic attends

16 the meeting as minister of interior of the RSK.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm advised that it's Exhibit Number 69.

18 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

19 Q. In that case, we can move directly to the next document, which is

20 65 ter number 746, B/C/S ERN 02077288 to 7289.

21 A. Your Honours, this is a letter sent by Milan Martic as Prime

22 Minister -- excuse me, as minister of interior of the RSK, and Major

23 General Mile Novakovic, who was the commander of the SVK at the time, and

24 we can see that at the bottom of the document on the top of page 3. So

25 this document is sent-- and we can return now to the top of the first page

1 -- to the president of the Republic of Serbia, Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, on

2 the 9th of June 1993, and it is titled, "Indicators of aggression against

3 RS Krajina." "RS" stands for "Republic of Serbian" and then Krajina.

4 Novakovic and Mr. Martic, in the letter they provide an assessment, their

5 assessment of the situation in Croatia. They expect what they call an

6 aggression from the Republic of Croatia against the RSK, and they also

7 express further requests for assistance.

8 We may come back to that aspect later but on the second page of

9 the document, Milan Martic and Mile Novakovic discuss measures that they

10 have already undertaken, and when we look there at the fourth bullet --

11 move a little bit down -- yes. It is stated that "We -" so that refers to

12 the RSK - "moved P65 luna rockets from the army of Republika Srpska to the

13 area of Banija and Kordun to prevent aggression or carry out possible

14 attacks on Zagreb should our towns come under attack."

15 Now, in the context of support, a request for support, we can move

16 a little bit further down in the document, on the same page, when we see,

17 "We hereby ask you to do the following." So this means that Milan Martic

18 and Mile Novakovic ask Slobodan Milosevic, who is at that time the

19 president of Serbia, to do certain things for them. And they include, for

20 example, the first one, exerting pressure on the General Staff of the

21 Yugoslav army, so the VJ, to provide the required ammunition, spare parts

22 and other equipment, so this means the logistical support. There is also

23 a request for, in the second bullet, media attention; and the third bullet

24 then addresses personnel support, so the sending of the requested officers

25 to the SVK.

1 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, could this be given a number and

2 admitted into evidence, please.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I am made to understand that this has already been

4 marked Exhibit Number 12 with the first witness.

5 MR. BLACK: Ah, thank you very much, Your Honour. That's -- I'm

6 sure I've just made a mistake. I failed to make that connection.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You didn't lead the first witness, you might not

8 remember.

9 MR. BLACK: That's correct, Your Honour. Thank you.

10 Q. The next document I'd like to look at, Mr. Theunens, is 65 ter

11 number 1875. This has the B/C/S ERN 02804172 to 4183. I believe this may

12 be another example of one that we've already looked at today in another

13 context. No, I think that's not right. Maybe you can tell us,

14 Mr. Theunens, once it comes up.

15 A. Your Honours, this is a request sent to, as we can see when we

16 scroll a bit downwards on the first page, the president of the Federal

17 Republic of Yugoslavia, the president of the Republic of Serbia, and the

18 Chief of Staff of the Yugoslav army, VJ. The first individual was Zoran

19 Lilic, at the time of the events; the second, so the president of the

20 Republic of Serbia, was Slobodan Milosevic; and the Chief of Staff, it

21 should say chief of the General Staff, was General Perisic then. So on

22 the 21st of July 1994.

23 When we go through the document, we see that it's detailed request

24 for various aspects of military support. On the third page of the English

25 translation, and maybe I will -- we can talk first about the second page.

1 I apologise for that.

2 The second page, when we move down in the document, we arrive at

3 the heading, "Attachments." In these attachments, the various aspects for

4 support that is being requested are detailed. The first attachment deals

5 with air force and air defence forces. The second with also air defence

6 assets. The third with armoured -- an armoured unit. And other aspects,

7 other domains are detailed in the following bullets.

8 On the next page, then, we can see that this request is signed by

9 Milan Martic, president of the republic, RSK. When scrolling through the

10 document, we can see that the quantity of equipment that is being

11 requested is quite substantial, and also the nature of the equipment. For

12 example, at the bottom of page 4 - so it's the next page - you can see,

13 Your Honours, that there is a request for airplanes, Gazelle helicopters,

14 and also helicopters of other types.

15 When we move further on in the document, on page 7 in the English

16 translation -- it is this page but if we can move to the bottom of the

17 page or the mid-part. Okay, in this annex I mentioned the armoured

18 battalion, we see that there is a request from the RSK - i.e., Milan

19 Martic - to Yugoslavia for an armoured battalion, which is a substantial

20 unit, with T84 or T55 tanks, and as like the other attachments, this

21 attachment is signed by Milan Celeketic.

22 The attachment number 5, which we can find on page 9, you can see

23 the amount of ammunition that are being requested, and I would like to go

24 to the top of the next page because, under the same heading of artillery

25 ammunition, instruments and equipment, there is also a request for 100

1 Orkan cluster rockets. And the other attachments, if you want, we can

2 address them but they basically refer to the same issues, requests for

3 military equipment from the RSK to Yugoslavia.

4 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I think rather than go through the other

5 attachments, I would just ask that it be admitted at this time and given a

6 number, please.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document and its attachments is admitted into

8 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 84, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. A final document on this

12 subtopic, 65 ter number 1456, with B/C/S ERN 02077291. If that could be

13 shown on the screen, please.

14 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, this is an order, as the document

15 states, which is being sent to Milan Martic by the chief of the General

16 Staff of the VJ, General Perisic, whereby Perisic actually forwards an

17 order from the president of the Republic of Serbia, Mr. Slobodan

18 Milosevic. The order concerns the granting of freedom of movement to a

19 humanitarian convoy of UNPROFOR in western Bosnia, so that's the area of

20 the Bihac enclave whereby assistance that UNPROFOR wanted to send in had

21 to cross territory under the control of the RSK. My report does not deal

22 with -- in detail with the FRY Supreme Defence Council or command and

23 control relations in FRY, so Serbia and Montenegro, but I can say that

24 there was also Supreme Defence Council in FRY, consisting of the

25 presidents of Serbia and Montenegro and the president of FRY, as well as

1 other people could be invited, like the chief of General Staff Perisic or

2 certain ministers, but this is -- from the point of view of the FRY, this

3 is a rather unusual chain of command because we have the president of one

4 of the republics of FRY who issued an order to the chief of General Staff

5 of the armed forces of the whole FRY, which is then forwarded to Milan

6 Martic, who is in charge of an entity -- who is president of an entity

7 called RSK, which is located outside of FRY, to do certain things.

8 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could it have a number and be admitted,

9 please.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

11 please be given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 85, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

14 MR. BLACK:

15 Q. Mr. Theunens, you've now been discussing for a few minutes the

16 relations between the SVK and the VJ. I'm going to shift focus a little

17 bit and ask you about the relations between the SVK and the VRS. First,

18 can you tell us what the VRS was?

19 A. Your Honours, the VRS were the armed forces of an entity known as

20 the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Later on the name was

21 transformed into Republika Srpska. So basically these are the armed

22 forces of the self-declared Bosnian Serb entity in Bosnia-Herzegovina

23 which were created on the 12th or the 18th of May 1992 in

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. Mr. Theunens, beginning on page 169 of your report, which is page

1 188 in B/C/S, you spend several pages discussing something called

2 Operation Corridor, which relates to the Posavina corridor that you

3 discussed earlier. First, could you tell us what Operation Corridor was?

4 What does that refer to?

5 A. Operation Corridor, Your Honours, refers to operations which were

6 conducted by forces of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina - i.e., the

7 VRS and Bosnian Serb police - together with forces of the RSK, consisting

8 in June-July 1992 of PJM and other police units, later in November also

9 military units were involved - November 1992 - to establish a corridor, so

10 an access supply road -- actually, a supply route that would connect

11 Serbia with the western part of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

12 and with the RSK in particular, the areas in northern Dalmatia, Lika,

13 Banija and Kordun.

14 Q. Mr. Theunens, if I was to show you a map of Croatia and

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, could you approximately mark this area of the

16 corridor?

17 We'll try the e-court trick again, Your Honour. If we could see a

18 map bearing the ERN 03639617. And Your Honours, for your reference and

19 Defence as well, this is a map 1 of the map booklet. We put it

20 electronically into e-court with the hopes that it could be marked that

21 way.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: This one?

23 MR. BLACK: That's correct, Your Honour. It would be the very

24 first map there, marked map 1.

25 Now with the usher's assistance, I would ask Mr. Theunens to mark

1 that corridor as approximately as he can, as accurately as he can.

2 THE WITNESS: So, Your Honours, the corridor would link Serbia

3 with the western part of the territories held by the Serbs in

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the RSK, and was actually located in Posavina,

5 which is the B/C/S for valley of the Sava, as the Sava River in that area

6 constitutes the boundary -- the border between Bosnia-Herzegovina and

7 Croatia. If I may add -- maybe this first needs to be admitted.

8 MR. BLACK:

9 Q. Please go ahead and add what you need.

10 A. There are a number of municipalities at the entrance of the

11 corridor. It's difficult to see them on the map but we have, for example,

12 Bijeljina. There is also Brcko and others which were already taken over

13 by Bosnian Serb forces in -- with the assistance in a number of cases of

14 force originating from Serbia in order to materialise this corridor.

15 I haven't addressed these aspects in the report, but I understand

16 that it's helpful to explain it because the operations in June cannot be

17 separated from the takeovers in April. What is also important is that

18 early May, the Bosnian Serbs held an Assembly session in Banja Luka. We

19 have already discussed one part of the Assembly session yesterday when we

20 spoke about the fact that RSK MUP units were subordinated to elements of

21 the 9th JNA Corps in the takeover of Kijevo. Well, at this 16th Assembly

22 session, Radovan Karadzic was then the president of the Serb Republic of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, announced what he called six strategic goals. One of

24 these goals was the establishment of a corridor between Krajina and

25 Semberija, Krajina being located in western part of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

1 Semberija being the area on the border with Serbia in the east there.

2 So ...

3 Q. Could you maybe sort of mark those places? You can either put a

4 number and identify the number or however you want, but show on the map

5 the places you've now referred to.

6 A. Well, I would use a K for Bosanska Krajina and an S for more or

7 less Semberija.

8 We see that the takeovers take place in April. Then in May,

9 Radovan Karadzic announces the strategic goals. And then we see that in

10 June-July, 1992, and November 1992, also forces of the RSK are involved

11 in establishing or freeing the corridor, and that aspect, the latter

12 aspect, so the involvement of RSK forces, is discussed in the report.

13 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this image be saved and made an

14 exhibit, and then we'll have to take a break, I think.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you could, just before we do that, give us what

16 he says is the corridor. Just draw approximately two lines bounding the

17 corridor.

18 MR. BLACK:

19 Q. Mr. Theunens, do you understand the Chamber's request? If you

20 could, I guess, kind of circle the area that is the Posavina corridor.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not circle it. I would like to see the corridor,

22 I'd like to see -- on the boundary on the corridor, on the south and on

23 the north, if the corridor goes horizontally. If it goes perpendicularly,

24 then on the east and on the west.

25 MR. BLACK:

1 Q. If you understand, Mr. Theunens, please proceed.

2 A. Your Honour, I have attempted to draw a line which more or less

3 represents the corridor. It was not just one road. There are different

4 roads there, and before the conflict, there was not like -- there was not

5 a highway called Posavina corridor. When looking at the map and from the

6 military point of view, you need a resupply route, you try to free that

7 resupply route, and maybe some parts would be big roads, some would be

8 smaller roads, but you need to free a route in order that it is safe to

9 operate; i.e., that the enemy cannot interrupt it by direct or indirect

10 fire.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that, and for what you have just said,

12 precisely my question: I would like you to indicate the area of land on

13 which there were several roads where the route travelled. Did it -- did

14 that area of land that was freed, the Posavina corridor, did it -- was it

15 bounded on the south by that red line just to the south of the boundary of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia and what was its boundary on the top?

17 That's all I want to know. I'm not asking you to give me a road or a

18 highway.

19 THE WITNESS: I understand your questions, Your Honour, but in

20 fact, even if it was not a road but the best way to materialise it would

21 be a line because there would be territory, for example, north of the

22 corridor --

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, thank you, Mr. Theunens. If you can't give

24 it the way I'm asking, that's fine. Thank you.

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, if we need to clarify it, I'm sure the

1 witness is willing, but if you want to move on, then we can --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like us to [inaudible] on our time.

3 MR. BLACK: Very well. I understand, this image needs to be

4 saved, and then if it could become an exhibit Your Honour, and admitted

5 into evidence.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, the document is being admitted into evidence.

7 May it please be given an exhibit number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, this map will be Exhibit Number

9 86.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Would this now be a

11 convenient time?

12 MR. BLACK: It would, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting wants to say something.

14 MR. WHITING: No, I was just anticipating the break. I was just

15 getting up.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Court will adjourn and will come back at

17 half past two.

18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.37 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Black.

21 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. I would say I'm grateful for

22 the extra session this afternoon, to the Chamber and to the interpreters

23 and everyone, to have a chance to try to finish up this direct

24 examination.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we likely to?

1 MR. BLACK: I think we are likely to, Your Honour. I hope that

2 will be the case. Thank you very much.

3 Q. Mr. Theunens, one final question or two before we leave the issue

4 of the Posavina corridor: You've touched on this but could you summarise

5 what Mr. Martic's role was in the Operation Corridor.

6 A. Your Honours, for what the participation in June-July 1992 is

7 concerned, Milan Martic issued orders to police departments, Secretariats

8 of Interior, in Benkovac, Korenica, Vojnic and Petrinja, and this is

9 discussed on page 170 in my report, to establish volunteer police

10 companies which would be sent, and I quote from the order, "To the

11 corridor in order to carry out tasks of interest for the Republic of

12 Serbian Krajina and the Serbian people as a whole."

13 He, Milan Martic, issued such orders at least on the 6th of June

14 1992 and on the 10th of June 1992, the latter to other Secretariats of

15 interior. Milan Martic was also present in the corridor at least on the

16 24th of June, the 5th of July, and the 17th of July 1992, when, on the

17 17th of July, a farewell ceremony in his honour and honour of the -- his

18 officers was held.

19 For what the involvement in November 1992 is concerned, there is

20 65 ter number 1366, which is discussed on page 171 of my report, whereby

21 the General Torbica, who is the commander of the RSK TO at that time,

22 issues orders to send PJM battalions - so the police units - to the area

23 of Brcko - i.e., in the Posavina corridor - and also to the area of

24 Trebinje, which is located in south-eastern Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I see

25 that we have this order now on the screen. When we go to paragraph 6 of

1 this order --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say lies in the south-eastern part of --

3 THE WITNESS: Bosnia-Herzegovina. Indeed, Your Honour, this order

4 -- if you want, we can also discuss the beginning. It instructs units of

5 the PJM to go to two areas in Bosnia-Herzegovina. First of all, the area

6 of Brcko, which is a city right in the Posavina corridor, so in northern

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and also to Trebinje, which is an area which was at

8 that time, I believe, under Bosnian Serb control but close to the contact

9 line with the other factions in south-eastern Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: If it's in south-eastern Bosnia-Herzegovina, it

11 would be very far from the Posavina corridor.

12 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour, but it's just that the

13 order is used to send units to two different areas.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

15 THE WITNESS: From there may be the confusion.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

17 THE WITNESS: But if we have now paragraph 6 of this order, it

18 says that UP minister - it's a half acronym again for MUP, Ministry of

19 Interior, Milan Martic, and the PJM commander, Borislav Djukic, who we

20 have discussed extensively this morning, shall personally command the

21 forces of the RSK at the corridor. And the corridor, of course, we talk

22 about is the Posavina corridor.

23 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could that document please be given a

24 number and admitted into evidence.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. The document is admitted into evidence,

1 and may it please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 87, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

4 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Theunens, the next section of your report on the Pauk Command

6 deals primarily with Bosnia-Herzegovina so I won't spend any court time on

7 that today.

8 I'll now turn to the final broad topic of your testimony, which is

9 the shelling of Zagreb on the 2nd and 3rd of May 1995. If you would,

10 please turn to page 181 of your report. This is page 198 in B/C/S.

11 Before we come to the events of the 2nd and 3rd of May, I'd like

12 to ask you about some things that happened prior to that first. Beginning

13 with 1993. I'd like to show you 65 ter number 1401, which has the B/C/S

14 ERN of 02076265. I'm going to try to go through this portion fairly

15 quickly and just hit a couple of the documents, Mr. Theunens, to help you

16 navigate. Just in one or two sentences, if you see the document in front

17 of you, could you please tell me what it is and what is the subject of

18 this document in paragraph 1?

19 A. Your Honours, this is a report that is compiled by units of the

20 SVK that are tasked with what is called electronic reconnaissance. In

21 more simple terms, it means these are units that are equipped to carry out

22 intercepts of various communications. And in this report, they provide an

23 overview of damage that has been caused by shelling by SVK units of

24 targets in Croatia.

25 When we look at the date of this document, in the top left corner,

1 it says, 11th of September 1993. We can link this date to the Croatian

2 incursion in the Medak pocket that was discussed earlier today, which

3 started on the 9th of September 1993, and so in reaction to this

4 incursion, units of the SVK shelled various targets in Croatia. When we

5 go through the document, there is actually very few mentioning of military

6 targets, or at least they are not identified as such.

7 For example, in paragraph 1, there is talk about toll booth, and

8 that's probably on the highway that goes close to Karlovac. There is also

9 talk a bit further down in the first paragraph of damage around the

10 marketplace. Further in that first paragraph there is mentioning of the

11 8th floor of the SDK skyscraper. SDK is organisations that deal with

12 financial issues, credit organisation. And so on.

13 We can address the other paragraphs if you wish, but they

14 basically mention the same but are other areas.

15 Q. I think that's sufficient.

16 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this receive a number and be

17 admitted into evidence, please.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, it may. The document is admitted into

19 evidence, and may it be given an exhibit number, please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 88, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

22 MR. BLACK:

23 Q. Another document on the same topic, I believe, Your Honour, is 65

24 ter number 2094, B/C/S ERN 04190068 to 0069. If we could have that on the

25 screen, please. Mr. Theunens, while it's coming up, could you -- I know

1 you have a hard copy, now it's on the screen, could you tell us what's

2 contained in this document, please.

3 A. Your Honours, this is a report from the command of the 51st

4 Infantry Brigade of the SVK to his subordinate units. It's dated the 15th

5 of September 1993. And he identify -- excuse me, he describes the

6 situation as it exists, talking extensively about, first of all, the

7 Croatian operations, which are identified as Ustashas; and then secondly,

8 he talks in the document about the reaction of the SVK against the

9 Croatian operations.

10 When we look on the first page, almost in the middle, the sentence

11 starts with, "So far ..." the brigade commander mentions that long range

12 artillery has been used against a number of facilities, and they include

13 also military targets like Lucko airport and the Jastrebarsko barracks.

14 Again, I mention the fact that Croatian forces are identified as

15 Ustashas.

16 When we look at the second page of the document, and we scroll a

17 bit downwards -- further down. Okay, please stop. We have a sentence

18 that before the -- we have first two bullet points and then four -- five

19 other bullet points. The sentence prior to the five bullet points

20 mentions that unless RH - which stands for Republika Hrvatska - so Croatia

21 - withdraws from occupied territories, the following operations will

22 continue. And there mention is made from -- of additional attacks against

23 Croatian cities. In some occasions indeed a military target is identified

24 but, for example, Zagreb, it is not identified. And even when we look at

25 the bottom of the page, the sentence of the 3rd of September, it is even

1 mentioned that missiles with long range of 300 kilometres, small nuclear

2 missile for hitting towns in case Tudjman should attack.

3 So maybe this latter part could be seen as kind of part of what we

4 called psychological operations, or propaganda, but still this is a senior

5 officer, it's Lieutenant Colonel, who is a brigade commander and who has

6 several subordinates. A brigade could number between -- depends, of

7 course; SVK brigades were of different size, but there could be several

8 hundreds to several thousands of people who most likely -- at least, the

9 information here as it is put is intended for them and will have maybe an

10 impact on their morale.

11 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this receive a number and be

12 admitted, please?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

14 please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 89, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

17 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Theunens, I won't ask you to look at two particular documents,

19 but together with the other documents that are cited in your report, what

20 do these tell us about the SVK doctrine?

21 A. Your Honours, the documents we discussed as well as the documents

22 mentioned in my report indicate that the Supreme Command of the SVK

23 considered the engaging of targets, military targets, albeit located

24 amidst civilian facilities, as a genuine and a justified response in case

25 of significant Croatian military operations.

1 Q. Mr. Theunens, the next subject that you address in the report, at

2 pages 184 to 186, which are pages 200 to 202 in B/C/S, deals with the M87,

3 Orkan multiple barrel rocket launcher, and in particular it's used with

4 so-called cluster warheads. I turn your attention specifically to page

5 185. There you have reproduced part of a magazine article. In the last

6 two paragraphs -- I'll just read them out quickly to avoid pulling up the

7 document -- it says: "The warhead of the rocket can be filled with 280

8 bomblets of fragmented and shaped-charge effect. Those bomblets contain

9 approximately 500 small balls which can penetrate up to 60 millimetre

10 thick armour with their shape-charge blast. The radius of the activity

11 --" that line is -- I'll skip that line, Your Honour. Then continuing the

12 quote: "The area covered by the fired and dispersed antitank bomblets

13 with the cluster warhead is two hectares ..."

14 Mr. Theunens, what did these passages and the other information

15 you reviewed tell you about the suitability of the M87 Orkan multiple

16 barrel rocket launcher and cluster warheads against targets with a heavy

17 civilian population?

18 A. Your Honours, these -- this information together with the other

19 characteristics of the Orkan multiple barrel rocket launcher or multiple

20 barrel rocket launchers in general, indicate that this type of weapon

21 is intended for what we would call surface targets in military language -

22 i.e., targets that are spread out over a larger surface - because first of

23 all, the Orkan fires rockets. Rockets are projectiles with an engine to

24 propulse them but the big difference with a missile is that with a rocket

25 you cannot change the trajectory, so once the weapon is launched, it will

1 hopefully impact in the desired area. However, you cannot change the

2 target whereas with a missile you can change -- not the target but the

3 trajectory. With a missile you can change the trajectory and you can

4 influence it during the flight time of the projectile.

5 The mentioning of cluster ammunition, it means that the warhead of

6 the rocket that is being fired by an Orkan multiple barrelled rocket

7 launcher, that warhead can be considered as a container which -- or

8 canister which contains smaller projectiles. At one moment during the

9 trajectory, and from the military point of view preferably as close as

10 possible to the target, that canister will disintegrate in the air in

11 order to allow the clusters, the bomblets to be spread out over the

12 desired target. So again this corroborates the fact that this kind of

13 weapon is intended for area targets or area -- targets spread out over a

14 larger area and not for point targets like, for example, a barracks or a

15 military position amidst civilian positions.

16 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, just to forecast, we will have an

17 artillery expert come at a later stage in the trial and testify about the

18 specifics, and otherwise I'll move on from this topic with that particular

19 aspect.

20 Q. Mr. Theunens, now I'd like to turn to a few statements that were

21 made in the months just preceding May 1995. The first document that I'll

22 show you, which you quote from at page 187 - page 202 in B/C/S - is 65 ter

23 number 1460, which is ERN 02171146 to 1152.

24 If you could just first tell us what the document is and then take

25 us to the middle of page 6 in the English and tell us what's of relevance

1 there.

2 A. Your Honours, this unsigned document is the transcript of an

3 excerpt of the speech the president of the republic, RSK, Milan Martic,

4 gave at the occasion of the briefing on combat readiness of the SVK on the

5 10th of February 1995. According to the -- this transcript, Milan Martic

6 joined the briefing just after 9.00. And after this introduction, then a

7 transcript of the actual speech is given.

8 When we look at page 6, more or less in the middle of the page --

9 we can stop there. According to this excerpt, Milan Martic stated:

10 "There will be activities in the whole area of Croatia. We have the

11 initiative in the attacks. We choose the place, the time, the manner of

12 the attack. No one can stop us to fire at Zagreb, Osijek, Vinkovci,

13 Zadar, Karlovac, Split." And I mean the rest of the paragraph is clear

14 too. I will not mention that. But it's clear from this -- from this

15 section that what actually the policy or even the doctrine will be of the

16 RSK Supreme Command in case again of Croatian operations.

17 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, could this be given a number and

18 admitted into evidence, please.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

20 please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 90, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

23 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Mr. Theunens, on page 189 - these are pages 204 and 205 in B/C/S -

25 you discuss a press interview with General Celeketic. This is 65 ter

1 number 11. The B/C/S ERN is 02924184 to 4185.

2 Mr. Theunens, when this comes up if you could just please tell me

3 what this is, the date, and what the general said about how the SVK would

4 respond in the event of a major Croatian attack.

5 A. Your Honours, this is a newspaper article which was published in

6 Serbia. It is an interview with General -- Lieutenant General Milan

7 Celeketic, who was at that time the commander of the SVK. And I was very

8 reluctant to include press interviews in my report, but when reading this

9 press interview, it becomes clear that Celeketic is more or less saying

10 the same as Milan Martic, with one big difference: Milan Martic was

11 speaking for senior officers of the SVK, and here we have the most senior

12 officer of the SVK speaking in public about the way, how the RSK will

13 react in case of significant Croatian operation.

14 The most relevant part of the article in the context of the topic

15 we are discussing, can be found on page 5.

16 Q. Is that the correct page, Mr. Theunens? I think it's one page

17 more.

18 A. Yeah, it should be the next page.

19 Q. One page further.

20 A. Okay. That's fine. Celeketic here, in a public statement,

21 basically repeats the words and the views Milan Martic expressed at the

22 SVK combat readiness briefing in February 1995, and I think the text is

23 pretty clear. I don't know whether you want me to --

24 Q. Please go ahead and read out the first two or three sentences of

25 that relevant paragraph.

1 A. According to the interview, Milan Celeketic answered to a question

2 as follows: "In the case of the Ustasha aggression, we will certainly not

3 miss the opportunity to hit them where it hurts the most. We know their

4 weak spots and where it hurts the most. Weak points are city squares and

5 we know where -- who goes there; civilians. I have already said this and

6 was criticised a little. Well, now they may ask which squares and in

7 which cities. I shall reply that that's a military secret. We shall make

8 a decision about it and I think we will be precise."

9 Q. Just continue one more sentence, please.

10 A. "It is hard to say these words because there are, as I said,

11 civilians in the squares, innocent people. However, if we are in war and

12 we are waging a filthy war for which they are first and foremost to blame,

13 then there will be no mercy."

14 Q. That's fine. You can stop there, thank you.

15 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this receive a number and be

16 admitted into evidence, please.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, the document is admitted into evidence.

18 May it please be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 91, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

21 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Theunens, I'll now move closer to the events of the 2nd and

23 3rd May. First I want to ask you what happened on the 1st of May 1995,

24 the day before Zagreb was shelled.

25 A. On the 1st of May 1995, in the early morning hours, the Croatian

1 armed forces launched a military operation aimed at re-establishing

2 Croatian authority over the area known as Sector West; i.e., Western

3 Slavonia. In reaction to that attack, SVK forces shelled a number of

4 cities, including Karlovac and Sisak.

5 Q. If we could look quickly at 65 ter number 1893, please.

6 Mr. Theunens, you don't need to walk us through this entire

7 document but please just tell us what of importance it contains.

8 A. The most important aspect of this order, Your Honour, is that

9 Milan Celeketic, commander of the SVK orders the Orkan unit to be

10 redeployed from I think the area of Knin towards municipalities located in

11 Sector North, and he's more specific, he mentions the area of Vojnic.

12 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this be given a number and admitted

13 into evidence, please?

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. Can we

15 please give it an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit Number 92, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

18 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much. I would note, Your Honours, and

19 also the Defence, if you would like to follow along with the location that

20 he just mentioned and a couple of other locations, pages 20 to 21 of the

21 atlas that we exhibited the other day are helpful because these localities

22 are shown there.

23 Q. The next document is 65 ter number 1894. The B/C/S ERN is

24 01150658 to 0660.

25 Mr. Theunens, what's the most important part of this document?

1 A. Your Honours, the most important part of this document can be

2 found on the first page, more or less in the middle. It mentions that

3 around 1300 hours on the 1st of May, General Celeketic ordered the command

4 of the 39th Corps, which was also known as the Banija Corps, so the corps

5 in that part of Sector North, in front of the members of Supreme Defence

6 Council to open artillery fire at Sisak, which was a Croatian city located

7 at the eastern limit of Sector North, in order to retaliate against the HV

8 who had carried out an aggression on Western Slavonia. The report also

9 details which members of the RSK Supreme Defence Council were present when

10 Celeketic issued this order.

11 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this receive a number and be

12 admitted into evidence, please.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we just find out who the members who were

14 present are before we do that.

15 MR. BLACK: Certainly.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. If you could scroll down on the

17 document, it mentions President Milan Martic, then -- so the president of

18 the RSK, the commander of the SVK, Celeketic. It also mentions the

19 minister of foreign affairs, who, at least according to the constitution,

20 was not a member of the RSK Supreme Defence Council. It mentions the

21 deputy minister of interior, and a number of other people, including the

22 author of the document, Colonel Rade Raseta, who was the head of the

23 security organs within the SVK. So the composition as it is described

24 here does not entirely correspond with the composition as it is defined in

25 the RSK constitution, but the most important members, the president, who

1 is also the president of the Supreme Defence Council, and the chief of the

2 General Staff are attending.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

4 MR. BLACK: Could that document then be admitted into evidence,

5 please, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we please have an exhibit number for the

7 document. The document is being admitted into evidence.

8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 93, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Finally, 65 ter Exhibit -- or 65 ter number 1474. This is a UN

12 document with an ERN 00311882 to, I believe, 1894.

13 Mr. Theunens, briefly, could you please tell us what this document

14 is.

15 A. This document is a report compiled by the headquarters of the

16 UNMOs, which are the United Nations Military Observers, on indiscriminate

17 shelling of Zagreb. Now, in addition to the shelling of Zagreb, the

18 report also discusses - we can see it on the second page - discusses the

19 shelling that was carried out on the 1st of May and that shelling there --

20 at that time, the SVK shelled Karlovac.

21 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this document receive a number and

22 be admitted, please?

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

24 please be given an exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 94, Your Honours.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

2 MR. BLACK:

3 Q. Mr. Theunens, please now take us to the 2nd and 3rd of May 1995,

4 and first just briefly summarise for the Trial Chamber what happened on

5 those days.

6 A. Your Honours, on those days, the Croatian operations in Sector

7 West continued, and at the same time, the SVK fired rockets, Orkan

8 rockets, against a number of targets in Zagreb. Also, as is described in

9 my report, also other cities were subject to SVK artillery fire on the 2nd

10 and the 3rd.

11 Q. Mr. Theunens, in a moment I'll ask you some questions about your

12 own experiences on the 2nd and 3rd of May 1995, but first please focus on

13 the documents that are addressed in your report, starting at page 194.

14 The first one is 65 ter number 1895 with the B/C/S ERN 01150655, 0657.

15 Mr. Theunens, please tell us what that document is and then I

16 would like you to address pages 3 and -- then pages 5 to 6 in the English

17 version, please.

18 A. Your Honours, in this document, Colonel Rade Raseta, who was the

19 -- I identified him earlier as the chief of the security organs but a

20 more correct name for his position was assistant commander for security in

21 the SVK, sends a report on the situation in Western Slavonia to the

22 security administration at the General Staff of the armed forces of

23 Yugoslavia; i.e., the VJ.

24 The report is dated 2nd of May.

25 Could you please repeat which pages?

1 Q. Yes, please look at page 3, to begin with.

2 A. When we look at page 3, Your Honours, the second paragraph,

3 starting with, "Today ..." "Today" is the 2nd of May.

4 Colonel Raseta informs his counterparts in the VJ that artillery

5 units of the SVK fired eight rockets of the Orkan multiple barrel rocket

6 launcher at the presidential palace, the Ministry of Defence and Pleso

7 airport. These are all facilities located in Zagreb. Raseta adds the

8 information that was obtained on the nature of the damage that was

9 inflicted by the use of these Orkans against certain targets in Zagreb,

10 and he mentions, for example, okay the Ministry of Defence was hit, as was

11 a park area, and also the American embassy, which, according to the

12 information of Raseta, was partially damaged.

13 Further on in the paragraph, he speaks about the railway station,

14 the Esplanade Hotel, as well as other civilians facilities.

15 Moving on --

16 Q. Could you look at the bottom of page 5, please.

17 A. At the bottom of page 5, Colonel Raseta talks about discussions

18 that took place. He means by these discussions of members of the Supreme

19 Defence Council. A bit higher in the document he talks about the

20 "enlarged Supreme Defence Council." And according to Raseta, there were

21 basically two different approaches towards solving the situation. And I

22 will quote from the document. "Except for Martic, Celeketic and the most

23 senior officers of the Main Staff, all others favour a peaceful solution

24 to the newly arisen situation through negotiations."

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this document receive a number and

1 be admitted into evidence, please.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

3 please be given an exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 95, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

6 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Could we next look at 65 ter number 1472. This is B/C/S ERN

8 02076266 to 6268.

9 Mr. Theunens, when it's available on your screen if you could just

10 tell us the most important part of this document, briefly.

11 A. Your Honours, the most important part can be found on the second

12 page. It's -- I can mention it's a report from the information section so

13 not to be confounded or confused with the intelligence section. We can

14 move, scroll a little bit down in the document. It says, if we stop now:

15 "Even though, Zagreb, Karlovac, Sisak and Kutina were hit, that was not

16 enough to stop or weaken Croatia's attack nor to force them to negotiate."

17 So it's an implicit recognition that cities in Croatia were targeted

18 during the previous days.

19 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this be given a number and admitted

20 into evidence, please.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence, and may it

22 be given an exhibit number, please.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 96, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

25 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

1 Q. If we could look briefly at 65 ter number 1474 -- actually, we can

2 skip that because the witness addressed it earlier.

3 Mr. Theunens, I'd like to move to a couple of statements by the

4 Accused, Milan Martic, about the shelling of Zagreb. First, you refer to

5 a meeting between Milan Martic and the UN Special Representative of the

6 Secretary-General Akashi on the 5th of May 1995. The relevant document is

7 65 ter number 2097. The ERN is R0033588 to 3594.

8 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, this is another instance where, I

9 believe, there is no B/C/S translation of the entire document but the

10 relevant parts are in the report and consequently were translated with the

11 report.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black.

13 MR. BLACK:

14 Q. Mr. Theunens, if you see that document, what did Mr. Martic say at

15 that meeting?

16 A. Your Honours, at that meeting, Mr. Martic explained why he had

17 carried out the shelling of Zagreb. Actually, he confirmed that he had

18 given the order to shell Zagreb, and he also threatened to resume the

19 shelling if certain conditions were not met.

20 Q. Could you point out to us where we find that on the document,

21 please.

22 A. When we look at the first page of the document, the underlined

23 part, there we see a description of a number of conditions Milan Martic

24 explained to Yasushi Akashi. For example, the release of all detainees

25 from Pakrac and other areas in Western Slavonia. He then adds, according

1 to what Akashi writes in his coded cable to Kofi Annan, who was then the

2 chief of the department of peacekeeping operations, so according to

3 Akashi, Martic mentioned that if the Croatians did not comply with the

4 above, Martic threatened to resume launching rocket attacks at Zagreb.

5 His threat was coloured with language that was foreboding. He spoke of

6 massive rocket attacks on Zagreb which would leave 100.000 people dead,

7 and he initially presented us with a 24-hour deadline.

8 Now, further on in the document, this is -- this is explained in

9 greater detail and then I think we can move to paragraph 4, which is on

10 ERN R0033590.

11 MR. BLACK: I believe that should be the third page of the

12 document in English.

13 THE WITNESS: Indeed. In the middle of the paragraph, Milan

14 Martic explains that, and I quote: "When I ordered the bombing of Zagreb,

15 that is military commands in Zagreb, it was exclusively in response to

16 Tudjman's aggression against the civilian population in Western Slavonia

17 and particularly the intervention of the Croatian air force against lines

18 of refugees containing women and children." He warned that unless Zagreb

19 responds to pressure from the UN to protect the civilian population and

20 the detainees, and then Akashi quotes: "I will order the shelling of

21 Zagreb again, not because I want to do it or is a good -- or it is a good

22 thing but to save the civilians and to enable my army to pull out

23 honourably."

24 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this document be given a number and

25 admitted into evidence, please.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

2 please be given an exhibit number, please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 97, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

5 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. The next statement, Mr. Theunens, is a radio interview given by

7 Milan Martic on the 6th of May 1995. Now the 65 ter number is 1896 and

8 the B/C/S ERN is 00620338.

9 Mr. Theunens, when it comes up on the screen, please tell us what

10 was said by Milan Martic on this occasion.

11 A. If we scroll a little bit down we can also see the English. Milan

12 Martic takes responsibility for having issued the order to shell Zagreb,

13 and he adds that, according to his views, the -- what he calls aggression,

14 the Croatian aggression, has been halted because he threatened to resume

15 the shelling or to continue the shelling of Zagreb. He adds that he has

16 nothing to hide about it and that he gave the order personally to shell

17 Zagreb.

18 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could that document be given a number and

19 admitted into evidence, please.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May we

21 give it an exhibit number, please.

22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 98, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. Theunens, beginning at page 199 of your report - which is page

1 213 of the B/C/S - you refer to two different reports by RSK investigative

2 commissions. I'm going to ask you to explain the relevance of each of

3 those. We will start with 65 ter number 1889, which is the B/C/S ERN

4 03266252 to 6273. And for this one, Mr. Theunens, if you could just

5 briefly point out the most relevant passages for us.

6 A. Your Honours, after the loss of Western Slavonia, it was decided

7 in the RSK to establish a number of fact-finding missions. I have

8 included two reports of such fact-finding missions or commissions in my

9 report. The first one, which is now on the e-court, is the civilian

10 fact-finding commission. The second one is a military one, which is

11 discussed in my report.

12 Now, these -- the work of these commissions focused mainly on the

13 reasons why Western Slavonia was lost, but when reading these reports, it

14 becomes also clear how command and control during those crucial days was

15 organised, and also how command and control was exercised during those

16 days, in particular for what the role of Milan Martic and General

17 Celeketic is concerned. And even though the reports focus on the fall of

18 Western Slavonia, they also give us good information on the command and

19 control that -- on the way how command and control operated when it comes

20 to the shelling of Zagreb and other Croatian cities with long range

21 artillery during these days.

22 We can go through the document but I think the easiest would be to

23 move to the conclusions.

24 Even though we can -- if we can go to page 18 of the English

25 translation and we scroll towards the middle of the document, according to

1 the RSK state fact-finding commission, members of the army, the police,

2 and the local municipal authorities prevented the functioning of the rule

3 of law in the territory of Western Slavonia. Further on it is also

4 indicated that Knin's highest level assisted in actually preventing the

5 functioning of the rule of law. According to the state fact-finding

6 commission, this behaviour directly helped Croatia and provided Croatia

7 with a pretext to launch the attack on Western Slavonia.

8 Now, if we move then further on to page 21, and we scroll a bit

9 downwards, the report or the state fact-finding commission raises the

10 question: Who is responsible for the fall of Western Slavonia?

11 And based on its findings, the commission states that, number 1,

12 president of the RSK, Milan Martic, for exceeding his authority as set by

13 the constitution by blocking and preventing the work of the Supreme

14 Defence Council. Number 2, SVK commander General Milan Celeketic for the

15 failure to organise a system of defence for Western Slavonia and

16 deliberate violation of the international agreement signed by the RSK and

17 for pursuit of politics instead of defence.

18 I would like to link what is written here to the document by

19 Colonel Raseta we discussed earlier where Raseta informed his counterparts

20 in the security administration, the VJ, that there was a split in the RSK

21 leadership, that there was a group who were in favour of a more -- of a

22 peaceful solution or a negotiated solution whereas, according to Raseta,

23 Milan Martic and Milan Celeketic didn't favour a peaceful or a negotiated

24 solution.

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this receive a number and be

1 admitted into evidence, please.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it be

3 given an exhibit number, please.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 99, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. The other report is 65 ter

7 number 8 -- maybe Mr. Theunens can give us the number of that report

8 because I have the wrong number.

9 THE WITNESS: It's 65 ter number 1890.

10 MR. BLACK:

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. That report or that commission was a military commission, and

13 again it focused on the same aspect. It looks more at command and control

14 aspects, and I would like to go directly to the conclusions of the report,

15 on page 16 of the English translation. And then put the heading number 9

16 a bit higher.

17 It states that - and again these are the conclusions of the

18 military fact-finding commission - "The course of events in Western

19 Slavonia required of the SVK Main Staff to intervene in order to provide

20 assistance to the 18th Corps --" The 18th Corps was the SVK unit that

21 covered Western Slavonia. Particularly to -- I mean continuing with the

22 sentence, "... provide assistance to the 18th Corps, particularly to the

23 forces in encirclement. However, no options were sought from the

24 commanding officers of the SVK Main Staff. Decisions were made by the

25 commander, i.e. Milan Celeketic, and the president, i.e. Milan Martic, and

1 stances and orders were given on the telephone. There are no written

2 orders."

3 Your Honours, the two reports of the two different investigation

4 or fact-finding commissions together with the report Rade Raseta sent

5 indicate that -- or highlight the role played by Milan Martic and Milan

6 Celeketic, not only in the fall of Western Slavonia but mainly also in the

7 decision-making process to shell Croatian cities, including Zagreb, with

8 long-range artillery, with the high risk of collateral damage.

9 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this document be given a number and

10 admitted into evidence, please.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it be

12 given an exhibit number, please.

13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 100.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Finally, briefly, Mr. Theunens, this is the last document that

17 I'll discuss with you from your report. If we can look at 65 ter number

18 272. The B/C/S ERN is 02011864. This is discussed at pages 204 to 205 of

19 the report; pages 217 to 218 in B/C/S.

20 Mr. Theunens, when this becomes available on the screen if you

21 could just tell us what the document is and point out the most important

22 or the most relevant passage.

23 A. Your Honours, this is the letter of resignation of Milan Celeketic

24 which he sent on the 15th of May to Milan Martic. And I would like to

25 draw your attention to the second paragraph, which says: "In the latest

1 aggression of the Republic of Croatia against the Republic of Serbian

2 Krajina, I have acted in accordance with our doctrine of reprisal at a

3 chosen vital targets of the combatant." I could continue but I think

4 that's the most important part of the document because it shows that, as

5 we discussed earlier, the engagement of even if we call them military

6 targets, but located amongst civilian targets, so with the implication of

7 a high risk of collateral damage to civilian facilities in the area, was

8 considered a doctrine or normal doctrine by the RSK Supreme Command. Even

9 they had a name for it. According to the commander of the SVK, it was a

10 doctrine of reprisal.

11 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could that document be given a number and

12 admitted into evidence, please.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

14 please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 101, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

17 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Theunens, we are finished with your report but at the end of

19 your testimony, I'd like you to -- I'd like to ask you a few questions

20 about your own experiences on the 2nd and 3rd of May 1995. First, please

21 remind us where you were stationed at that time.

22 A. Your Honours, at that time, I was working as a military

23 information officer in the headquarters of UNPF, United Nations Peace

24 Forces, also known as UNPROFOR, in Zagreb. And I remember that these

25 days, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd of May, we were providing briefings on an

1 hourly basis to members of the military headquarters but also members of

2 the civilian headquarters because the situation was developing so fast.

3 Q. And what do you remember specifically about those two days, the

4 2nd and the 3rd of May 1995?

5 A. What I remember is that on -- I think it was the 2nd of May but

6 I'm not 100 per cent sure, in the morning when I was working in my office

7 I was visited by a U.S. Military officer who was doing the liaison between

8 the American military hospital that was stationed at Pleso - it was a

9 field hospital - and the headquarters, and he came quite excited into my

10 office to mention the fireworks he had seen close to Pleso. So he had

11 seen what he described as fireworks in the air, and then, of course, he

12 also mentioned the air sirens, or the sirens to warn people for

13 bombardment he had heard. And when I then afterwards -- I mean, during

14 the day itself I received also information from military observers, that

15 basically this fireworks are part of the - how would I call it? - the

16 disintegration of the cannisters. I mentioned earlier when an Orkan

17 rocket is launched, at a certain altitude above the target, the canister,

18 the warhead, which is a canister, will disintegrate and the bomblets will

19 disperse. And I never saw an explosion of an Orkan myself but again he

20 described it as fireworks. A bit later we had a meeting and a briefing in

21 the headquarters. And we heard also the air sirens in Zagreb, and we

22 could see from the location where the briefing took place, which was an

23 office we called the joint operations centre, where maps would be kept,

24 where there was a duty officer, and where people would come to be updated

25 about the information, about the situation, we could see smoke from parts

1 of the city, as well as on the TV screen that was in the office, which was

2 -- I think it was Sky TV or another station -- we could see the impacts

3 or we could see explosions, actually, in parts of the centre of Zagreb.

4 And when we linked all of the information together, the UNMO report about

5 their observations from outgoing fire in certain parts of Sector North,

6 the reports about incoming fire in Zagreb, and also the nature of the

7 incoming fire, it was concluded that the smoke in certain parts of the

8 city, as well as what we saw on the TV, was the direct effect of the

9 firing of Orkan multiple barrelled rocket launcher rockets equipped with

10 cluster head warheads or cluster ammunition warheads on Zagreb.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black, if I might just inquire, is Mr. Theunens

12 still wearing an expert cap?

13 MR. BLACK: No, Your Honour, he's now a fact witness. This was

14 revealed to the Defence sometime ago, that we would ask these very limited

15 number of fact questions of this witness.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. That's fine. I just wanted to be clear

17 where we are.

18 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Theunens, if I were to show you a map of Zagreb, do you think

20 you could identify some of the locations that you've just discussed for

21 us?

22 A. Yes, Your Honour.

23 MR. BLACK: Could we have on the e-court, please, 65 ter number

24 16, I think. The ERN is 00312428.

25 Your Honours, this map is also in the map booklet. It's map 17.

1 It's the last map in the map booklet.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

3 MR. BLACK: If I could ask the usher to continue to zoom in --

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic?

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence would like to lodge

7 an objection because this is not only a map of Zagreb. It also contains

8 certain markings. If this is a fact witness indeed, then he should be

9 required to indicate these places on the map, mark them so that we have

10 the markings on the basis of his testimony. That is the reason why we

11 objected to the admission, generally speaking, of this type of evidence.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Black.

14 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, if I could just respond. Another witness

15 will be coming to testify about the markings on this map. This map has --

16 in this form was actually used in the Rule 61 hearings in this case

17 several years ago and was made an exhibit. I'll try -- I'll make it as

18 clear as possible with Mr. Theunens what he himself knows and he'll mark

19 specific places. I don't know that he'll discuss all these areas but I'll

20 try to make it as clear as possible what he knows and not rely on the

21 markings that exist on the map as it is.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You say -- did you say the map has been admitted in

23 some years ago?

24 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour. Several years ago, they went

25 through this procedure, I believe it's under Rule 61, which is a procedure

1 for the issuing of international arrest warrants. In those proceedings,

2 the Office of the Prosecutor led a certain amount of evidence, including

3 they called two or three witnesses. One of the witnesses talked about

4 these different places on the map, each of the different locations. It's

5 a police officer from Zagreb who will be coming to testify in this case as

6 well. So when he comes to testify here, we expect him to talk about all

7 the places identified in this map.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what you want Mr. Theunens to talk about -- let

9 me ask the question. What is it you would like Mr. Theunens to talk about

10 in relation to the map?

11 MR. BLACK: What I would like Mr. Theunens to do, just to

12 forecast, is to mark approximately where his headquarters was, if he can

13 find that on the map. Also he's mentioned the Pleso airport, which is

14 shown on the map, and I thought he could mark that. And then he mentioned

15 clouds of smoke coming from the centre. If he could tell the direction.

16 I don't anticipate that he'll be able to identify impact sites but just

17 for him to show here in an illustrative form what he's just told Your

18 Honours orally.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: In addition to this map having been tendered into

20 evidence as an exhibit in a Rule 61 proceedings, the booklet, this booklet

21 is already Exhibit 22, including the map, Mr. Milovancevic. How -- it

22 looks like this objection is a bit late.

23 Mr. Milovancevic?

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a map

25 where impact sites have been marked. The impact sites of explosions that

1 occurred at a certain point of time. Mr. Theunens is no longer an expert

2 witness. Such a map could be perhaps shown to an expert witness.

3 However, since this witness is required to testify about certain facts

4 familiar to him, now to tender -- to present a map that already contains

5 certain markings is the same as asking a leading question. That is why I

6 objected to the admission of this type of evidence and this is the reason

7 why I think this map is not adequate for this phase of testimony. I think

8 the witness would be perfectly able to answer this type of question if

9 he's presented with an unmarked map. However, the way it is presented,

10 this is a typical example of leading.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, Mr. Milovancevic, Mr. Black has indicated that

12 he's not going to be testifying about these markings, he's going to

13 testify about where his office was and where the airport is, if he can

14 identify those two spots. And if these markings make it impossible for

15 him to identify those, perhaps because the markings are over some of those

16 spots, then he'll just say, "I'm not able to."

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. We

18 accept that.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr. Black.

20 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is overruled.

22 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Theunens, with the map as it is, first are you able to

24 indicate to the Court where the Pleso airport was or is?

25 A. Indeed, Your Honours. The Pleso airport is located on -- in the

1 right bottom corner, and on the map I can see, it's easy to see the

2 landing strip. On the monitor, it's a bit more difficult, but I think the

3 strip is more or less here. Pleso airport was both a civilian as well as

4 a military airport so it was used as the airport of the city of Zagreb

5 where civilian airliners were land. We also knew that Croatian air force

6 had a few MiG 21s there as well as Hind helicopters, any maybe also other

7 assets, but most important from the UN point of view was that the

8 logistical base of UNPROFOR and later on UNPF was located at Pleso, so

9 around the airstrip -- shall I indicate it or --

10 Q. Yes, please. And while you're at it, please put a number 1 near

11 that airstrip so we know that refers to the Pleso airport. Thank you.

12 A. Along the airstrip and also where I put the dots there were many

13 offices used by UN personnel for logistical purpose as well as, for

14 example, when they were rotations when troops would fly in to Zagreb and

15 before they would be deployed to another area, they could spend some days

16 in Pleso. There were rest and recreation facilities and so on. I'm not

17 in a position to say how many UN blue helmets there were at the time of

18 the shelling, but there were people there.

19 If you want me to indicate where my office was more or less

20 located.

21 Q. Please, if you could.

22 A. I don't know whether we can zoom on the map.

23 Q. I'm afraid if we zoom then we lose the markings you've made, so --

24 A. Because the approximate location was here on the left edge, and I

25 will put a number 2. The UNPROFOR, and later, from 31st of March 1995 on,

1 it was called UNPF, United Nations Peace Forces, headquarters was located

2 in the Ilica barracks, which were located on the junction between Ilica

3 Street and Selska Street. So even if the dot may be a bit too much to the

4 north, to the south, the two streets should give you a good indication

5 where the headquarters was.

6 And indeed -- so when we were giving the briefings and we saw the

7 images on TV, of course we were all looking outside, and looking outside

8 means that you looked somewhere towards the centre of Zagreb, but, of

9 course, from our position, the second floor of a building, it was

10 impossible to say which facility was exactly being targeted. Later on, of

11 course, in the reporting, we found detailed information but I think that's

12 not the purpose of my testimony.

13 Q. Could you please put a circle around the approximately the centre

14 of the city there and number 3 next to the circle, please.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Mr. Theunens, earlier in your testimony, looking at some documents

17 you mentioned a few places like the Ministry of Defence, the presidential

18 palace. Do you know approximately where those were located?

19 A. If my recollection is correct, I would I think the Ministry of

20 Defence was closely located to the dot with the number 3. For the

21 presidential palace, I'm not certain so I wouldn't like to give an answer.

22 And I mean by number 3, the number 3 that is originally already on the

23 map, not the number 3 I added.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where is the number 3 that is originally on the

25 map?

1 MR. BLACK:

2 Q. Could you put a little circle around the number 3 that was on this

3 map.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. You have better eyes than I do, Mr. Theunens.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: He obviously does.

7 MR. BLACK:

8 Q. Maybe you could draw a line to that with a number 4 just so we're

9 clear.

10 A. [Marks].

11 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this image then be saved and made

12 an exhibit and admitted into evidence, please.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The exhibit is then admitted into evidence. May it

14 please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 102, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

17 MR. BLACK: Mr. Theunens, unless you have any further comments,

18 that's the end of your direct examination. I have no further questions

19 for you.

20 A. Thank you, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. It looks like that may very well be a

22 very convenient time to take an adjournment for the weekend.

23 Then meet back here in Courtroom III on Monday, the 30th of

24 January, at 9.00 in the morning.

25 Mr. Theunens, you are warned to come to court for

1 cross-examination on that day, and you may not discuss the content of the

2 case with your legal advisers over the weekend.

3 Court adjourned.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.47 p.m.,

5 to be resumed on Monday, the 30th day of January,

6 2006, at 9.00 a.m.

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