Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1188

1 Tuesday, 7 February 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Ms. Richterova. You may proceed.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: May I start?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.

9 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Examination by Ms. Richterova: [Continued]

13 Q. Before we start talking about the document about your appointment

14 to the post of commander, I would like to clarify certain points from your

15 testimony yesterday because we had to finish due to the fact that you were

16 tired. Yesterday you testified about units of the TO and -- or the police

17 that were subordinated to the JNA for operation purposes. What would

18 happen to these units at the end of the operation? Would they stay

19 subordinated to the JNA or would they return to their prior command in the

20 TO or the police?

21 A. The units that were resubordinated to the JNA for the purposes of

22 accomplishing a certain mission would return into the structure of a TO

23 staff once their mission was accomplished.

24 Q. And would be the case for the police?

25 A. The same would apply to the police.

Page 1189

1 Q. Now I would like to ask you one more question, but please tell us

2 whether you -- you know it or not because it may go beyond your knowledge.

3 Under the laws in the SAO Krajina, do you know what duties and

4 responsibilities of the minister of the interior were with respect to his

5 subordinates?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. Mr. Maksic, can you tell us when did you retire from the military,

8 the year?

9 A. In 1993.

10 Q. Are you familiar still with the international laws of war?

11 A. Basically, yes, although I've forgotten quite a lot.

12 Q. I would ask you whether you are familiar with the rule that a

13 commander has a duty to discipline subordinates under his command who

14 commits crime even if, for operational purposes, the subordinate is under

15 somebody else's command. Are you familiar with this rule?

16 A. I haven't understood the question. Could you please repeat it?

17 Whether a commander has the duty to punish even his subordinates. Have I

18 understood this correctly?

19 Q. Let me repeat this question once again. The question was whether

20 the commander has a duty to discipline his subordinate, the -- the person

21 who is under his subordination even if he, for operational purposes, this

22 subordinate is under somebody else command.

23 A. Again I missed your point.

24 Q. I will be more concrete. You have a --

25 A. Yes.

Page 1190

1 Q. -- commander of the special police unit, and this commander is --

2 has a duty to discipline his subordinates.

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. This subordinate is put, for operational purposes, under the

5 command of somebody else. And my question is --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- whether you are familiar with the rule that in this case the

8 commander of the special police unit - and this is just an example - is

9 still -- has still the duty to discipline his subordinate?

10 A. In this particular case you mention, if a commander of a

11 special-purpose unit resubordinated his unit -- or rather, allowed his

12 unit to be resubordinated to another commander, then the commander who is

13 now in command of the unit will apply any and all disciplinary matters and

14 will bring the case before a military court, regardless of which unit this

15 member originates from. However, the commander that allowed his unit to

16 be resubordinated does not have the right to then discipline a member of

17 that unit.

18 Q. And this is your understanding of -- of the rules?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were you, yourself, ever in the position when you had to

21 discipline a subordinate for having committed a crime?

22 A. A commander does not have the right to punish a soldier who

23 commits a crime. This is the jurisdiction of the military court. A

24 commander can, however, apply disciplinary measures, and that's what I had

25 occasion to do. Criminal -- or rather, prosecution lies within the

Page 1191

1 jurisdiction of a military court. A commander can merely file a criminal

2 report, and then it is up to the court to decide whether this is indeed a

3 crime or not. And then, depending on the outcome, this goes back -- the

4 case goes back to the commander. Of course, this is something that falls

5 within the competence of commanders of all levels, brigades, divisions,

6 and so on.

7 Q. Mr. Maksic, my question was slightly different. It was only

8 whether you, yourself, was in the position when you had to discipline, not

9 punish, discipline your subordinate.

10 A. Yes, I did, but in peacetime.

11 Q. Have you ever heard the term "Marticevci"?

12 A. Yes, I've heard of the term "Marticevci." Martic's men. This

13 is the police force of the Ministry of the Interior of the SAO Krajina,

14 and they were called in this way. It was a derogatory term, Marticevci,

15 Martic's men, whereas those who sided with Babic were called Babicevci,

16 Babic's men. That is the way they used to call them colloquially out in

17 the streets and then they would point to a person and say: Look, he's a

18 Babicevac, Babic's man, or Marticevac, but in essence it did not really

19 mean anything.

20 Q. You say this is the police force of the Ministry of the Interior,

21 and when you say "Babicevci," what do you refer to?

22 A. Those were all the people who did not side with Martic. They

23 term -- call -- styled me a Babicevac, although that wasn't true. They

24 thought that I held his views and supported him in his views and in some

25 of his actions in advocating certain issues. This was a wrong impression,

Page 1192

1 but there it was. It stayed at that. This was even true in Serbia;

2 that's what they thought over there.

3 Q. You -- yesterday you referred to a special unit within the police,

4 that this special unit was called the Krajina police. Can you tell us

5 where was this unit based?

6 A. This wasn't the Krajina police -- or rather, the Ministry of the

7 Interior of Krajina had its special-purpose unit which intervened in

8 particular cases, on special occasions, and it was stationed in Knin. As

9 for the strength and the composition of the unit, I don't know anything

10 about that.

11 Q. Any question is: Have you ever heard the term "mopping-up"?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What does this term refer to?

14 A. "Mopping-up" is not a military term. Again, this would be

15 sweeping of the terrain, but that's a layman's term. Whenever a unit

16 would seize a swath of territory, then the units would be positioned there

17 and the -- the units of the TO or a police unit would follow and sweep the

18 terrain for left-over elements of enemy units to make sure that the entire

19 area is free of enemy forces. So the mopping-up is not really a military

20 term. What we have as an official term is sweeping of an area or -- and

21 sanitisation of an area. This is a Serbo-Croat term which can have more

22 meanings than one.

23 Q. Can you tell us meanings of these two terms?

24 A. Which ones?

25 Q. You just said the sweeping and the sanitisation.

Page 1193

1 A. The sweeping of an area, as I just said, means detection of

2 left-over elements of enemy units, their hardware, members of sabotage

3 units, and other asserts with a view to clearing the area of these

4 elements, whereas the sanitisation of an area means to gather up the

5 left-over military hardware, gathering of the wounded and the dead,

6 including animal carcasses, assisting the population, and so on and so

7 forth, with the objective of restoring the area to the condition in which

8 it was prior to the combat activities to the extent possible.

9 Q. What would happen to the civilian population in -- in these areas

10 where mopping up or sweeping is undergoing?

11 A. In the area of combat activities, before any such combat

12 activities, the population is evacuated to prevent it from getting in

13 harm's way. Once the operation is over, the civilian population is taken

14 back to the area. Those who are left behind either manage to survive

15 or -- or get killed as a result of getting in the cross-fire or in enemy

16 fire or -- or in friendly fire.

17 Q. During 1991 do you know if TO or police units were ever assigned

18 to the task of mopping-up during military operations?

19 A. At the time I was there, the Krajina TO Staff was never given any

20 such task, although, to tell you the truth, we didn't have any units. The

21 same is true for Northern Dalmatia and Lika, although I cannot speak for

22 Banija.

23 Q. In fact, I was not talking about your staff, your TO Staff,

24 because we already established that you didn't have any units. I was

25 talking about TO units in various zones and police units. This was my

Page 1194

1 question, whether you are aware that they would be assigned to the task of

2 mopping-up the terrain.

3 A. This wasn't a task they'd be given, this was their duty;

4 regardless of the scale of the operation, this was something they would do

5 on the orders of the commander of the given operation, although I cannot

6 speak of any specific such case. I am not aware of any.

7 Q. In the time you were in Krajina, to your knowledge, were there any

8 paramilitary formations operating in the territory?

9 A. At the time, to my knowledge, there were not any paramilitary

10 formations that were independent and active in the area. There was one

11 unit belonging to the Serbian Radical Party, but it was in the structure

12 of the 9th Corps. It was part of its organic structure and was not in any

13 way different from the other units that were part of the 9th Corps. All

14 the more so, it was an exemplary unit, as far as I know. I heard that

15 there were paramilitary units involved in the attack in Pakrac [as

16 interpreted], Arkan's men, Giska's men, Captain Dragan's men, and some

17 others whose names I don't know.

18 Q. When you are talking about this group which belongs to Serbian

19 Radical Party, where did you -- were they based? Where were they based?

20 A. They were part of the 121st [as interpreted] or 170th -- or

21 rather, 180th Brigade. I'm not sure which of the two, but they were

22 establishment-wise part of its structure and they were under the command

23 of JNA officers. Ultimately they all came under the 9th Corps, which

24 covered this area.

25 Q. And which was this area? What was the name of the area?

Page 1195

1 A. A unit was not stationed in one location only; they were near

2 Benkovac, Drnis, and were given their assignments by the 9th Corps. I did

3 not have the opportunity to see the documents issued by the 9th Corps

4 which governed the deployment of the 180th and the 221st Brigades.

5 Q. Mr. Maksic, did you see Seselj, Vojislav Seselj, in Krajina?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What were the circumstances you saw him?

8 A. We came to visit the TO staff. I don't know whether was this

9 something that was planned, although probably not because he was not on

10 contract. I don't know Seselj that well. We just chatted about the

11 situation in Krajina in general, whereupon he insisted to be received by

12 Milan Babic. Milan Babic was trying to avoid seeing him, but in the end

13 he did receive him. I don't know what the subject of the discussion was.

14 The then-defence minister, Milan Tarbuk, was with us.

15 Q. You mentioned that this group belonged to Serbian Radical Party.

16 Do you know who was the leader of the Serbian Radical Party?

17 A. In this group?

18 Q. No. I mean who was generally the leader of this Serbian Radical

19 Party.

20 A. The leader of the Serbian Radical Party was

21 Professor Vojislav Seselj.

22 Q. Did he ever visit this group in -- which was stationed in Krajina?

23 And we were talking about it a while ago.

24 A. Yes. He visited his group of soldiers with a group of officers

25 from the 9th Corps. I personally spoke with the commander of the 9th

Page 1196

1 Corps and the commander of the 221st Brigade, Colonel Djukic. I asked

2 about these soldiers, and they had only good things to tell me about them

3 in terms of their conduct, discipline, and so on. For the duration of my

4 stay there, I did not hear anything negative about them. It happened by

5 chance that in the hotel in Knin I came across two men from this group who

6 were resting there, and they were quite content with their position and

7 status within the 9th Corps.

8 Q. Were they directly subordinated or incorporated into the JNA, this

9 group of volunteers?

10 A. Yes. For example, if a battalion had three or four companies,

11 then they constituted one company within that battalion under the command

12 of the battalion commander, and they carried out all orders of the

13 battalion commander. Nobody else issued any orders to them or had

14 anything to do with them, except for the commander of the battalion or

15 commander of the brigade.

16 Q. Yesterday you testified in relation to the document 65 ter Exhibit

17 Number 206.

18 MS. RICHTEROVA: We didn't manage to finish this document, so

19 if -- I would like to ask you to display this document again. Can we

20 scroll down a little bit? Yeah.

21 Q. Yesterday you testified, based on this document, that only the

22 General Staff of the JNA had the authority to appoint you to any position.

23 So what happened to this appointment?

24 A. Yesterday when giving evidence I explained the explanation given

25 by Milan Babic -- or rather, the statement of reasons provided by Milan

Page 1197

1 Babic on the relieving of duties of Mr. Djujic. I told you already that

2 he wasn't happy with Mr. Djujic's work for the reasons I stated.

3 May I continue?

4 Q. No. Mr. Maksic, I am today talking about the document when you

5 were appointed to the position of commander. So I want to hear what was

6 your reaction to this appointment.

7 A. On that day I was away on business. I think I travelled to

8 Vrhovina to Korenica. Upon my return to Knin, my associates and

9 colleagues congratulated me, and I knew nothing about the appointment.

10 Nobody had consulted me. I learned of it for the first time on the first

11 channel of Radio Television Belgrade. Milan Babic had no right to do this

12 because I already had a prior appointment within the JNA. Milan Babic

13 wrote this on his own without consulting anybody. I never saw this

14 decision nor signed it. Following this, I immediately informed my

15 commander in Belgrade and chief of the personnel service; they, upon

16 learning of this, considered it to be invalid. After several days I went

17 to Belgrade to explain this in person. Once I returned from Belgrade, I

18 stayed for another couple of days in Knin, and then I received a cable

19 from the General Staff of the JNA to return to Belgrade to resume my prior

20 duties, and that was the end of it. That was the end my command --

21 Q. Do you know --

22 A. -- over the TO staff in Krajina.

23 Q. Do you know who was later appointed to the position of commander?

24 A. As far as I know, Colonel, or perhaps even, General Milan Torbica

25 was pointed to this post.

Page 1198

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I don't have other questions for

3 this witness.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Richterova.

7 Mr. Milovancevic.

8 MS. RICHTEROVA: Oh, I'm sorry.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Ms. Richterova.

11 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry. I forgot to ask that I would like to

12 tender this document into evidence.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which -- oh, this document that appoints the --

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yeah, to --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- the witness.

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: -- exactly. He read this document yesterday

17 before we adjourned.


19 JUDGE MOLOTO: That document is admitted into evidence. May it

20 please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 128, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 Mr. Milovancevic.

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:

Page 1199

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Maksic, I am Defence counsel for Mr. Martic.

2 My name is Predrag Milovancevic. We will now begin the part of your

3 examination known as cross-examination. I will be putting questions to

4 you and I would like to receive an answer from you to the extent you know

5 about the things I'm asking you.

6 When providing your biographical data, you stated that you

7 completed all military schools, military academy, and various staff

8 schools. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct. You can see that in the documents. You can

10 verify that.

11 Q. Can you tell us, when did you enroll into military academy? Do

12 you remember which year, even though I'm sure it was quite a long time

13 ago.

14 A. 1961.

15 Q. Was the military academy based in Belgrade then?

16 A. Yes. The military academy of land forces is located in a section

17 of Belgrade called Banjica.

18 Q. How long did it last?

19 A. Since I completed military secondary school, I had to study for

20 one year general subjects such as math, chemistry, languages, and so on.

21 And then I had three years of training in the military field.

22 Q. Can you tell us something about the ethnic make-up of the students

23 attending the military academy. Were they only of one nationality or of

24 different ones?

25 A. People attending military academy came from all nationalities and

Page 1200

1 national minorities. There were Albanians, Slovenians, Croats,

2 Hungarians, Slovaks, Ruthenians, Serbs, Romanians. That is to say all

3 communities living at the time in the territory of the former Yugoslavia

4 were represented in the military academy.

5 Q. At the time in Yugoslavia, was there an official position and

6 slogan declaring brotherhood and unity among all peoples living in

7 Yugoslavia?

8 A. Yes. That was the main slogan.

9 Q. Can you tell us during your studies at the military academy, did

10 you see that there was any discrimination among the students based on

11 their ethnic background?

12 A. No. In the course of four years of study, there were about 400 of

13 us, I'm not quite sure. A monograph was published with the exact figure

14 of students, but during the four years of my studies there, there was not

15 a single incident that was based on ethnic issues during that period of

16 time.

17 Q. Mr. Maksic, let me warn you about something. Since you and I

18 speak the same language and the interpreters have to translate what we are

19 saying, would you please always make a break after my questions. Please

20 have this in mind. I know that this doesn't come natural, but please try

21 to remember this.

22 A. Thank you. I'll try to do that.

23 Q. So you said that you completed military academy, and did you

24 acquire any rank following your graduation?

25 A. Upon my graduation I was given a rank of lieutenant.

Page 1201

1 Q. Your fellow students who graduated together with you were given an

2 assignment and assigned to various JNA units. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct. They were assigned throughout the former

4 Yugoslavia.

5 Q. When the assignment was given specifying who was going to serve

6 where, in which garrison, in which unit, in which institution of the JNA,

7 was the nationality of an officer taken into account?

8 A. No.

9 Q. What schooling did you complete following the military academy?

10 A. I completed command staff school, which was later renamed into

11 higher military academy.

12 Q. Can you tell us what was the criterium for admission into this

13 higher military academy? As we have established, there was a regular

14 military academy and the school above it was known as the higher military

15 academy. Was nationality of a student taken into account?

16 A. Before entering the higher military academy, one had to spend

17 several years serving in the army. Depending on results achieved in the

18 course of service, people were either admitted into the higher military

19 academy or not. Nationality was not taken into account. There were entry

20 exams, and the selection criteria were extremely strict.

21 Q. Can you tell us, how long does the schooling take at the command

22 staff school or higher military academy? How long does it take to

23 complete a course of study?

24 A. Two years.

25 Q. In the course of your schooling at the command staff school, did

Page 1202

1 you observe that any officers were singled out because of their

2 nationality in the sense that some were neglected and some were favoured?

3 A. No, absolutely not. Just like in the military academy of land

4 forces, there were no such cases. It did not even occur to anyone to

5 raise this. I never heard that there was ever a single incident of this

6 nature. At the time, party units were still quite active and something

7 like this would have been discussed.

8 Q. You as a JNA officer, did you ever hold any ethnic bias in

9 relation to your fellow officers and students?

10 A. No, to the contrary. My best friends were officers of different

11 ethnicity, Croats and Macedonians. I can give you their names if that's

12 necessary.

13 Q. Upon completing command staff school, you also went to war

14 college?

15 A. Yes. After command staff school or academy, I served in Sarajevo

16 and then I returned to Belgrade not because I chose so but because I was

17 appointed head of year. Let me explain what this means. Head of year is

18 head of a year of students which normally has 3 to 400 students. After

19 that, I served as commander of a regiment, and then I went to war college.

20 Q. Which officers are given an opportunity to enroll into war

21 college? What are the criteria?

22 A. The criteria first of all entails successful service; that was the

23 most important criterium. And then good grades in schooling. And then

24 the third criterium was the ability to complete the schooling and to

25 command operative and joint units, so that out of 500 to 1.000 applicants,

Page 1203

1 only 10 to 20 are admitted and the decision is made by a special

2 commission.

3 Q. In the course of your study at this highest school, the war

4 college, did you observe that there were any cases of discrimination on a

5 national basis, that certain officers of a certain ethnic background had

6 privileged status?

7 A. No. What I told you about previous schools that I attended

8 applies in this case as well.

9 Q. You said that in 1961 you enrolled into military academy,

10 Mr. Maksic, and then you said that in 1985 you were head of year of

11 students attending military academy of land forces in Belgrade. Is that

12 right?

13 A. No, I think there was an error a misunderstanding. In 1981 I was

14 head of year, in 1981. I served there for two years in the military

15 academy of land forces, and then for four years I served as a commander of

16 the Belgrade regiment -- Belgrade Corps, 151st Regiment. And then I

17 became head of training section in the department for operations and

18 training within the Belgrade Corps.

19 Q. As a cadet, you attended the JNA military school. You enrolled

20 there in 1961, and then 20 years later you were head of year again in a

21 military school. In the meantime, did anything change in the attitude of

22 these schools versus the students? So let's say in 1981, was there any

23 difference in terms of the ethnic bias?

24 A. The year I attended was the 37th year in succession. There was

25 not a single ethnic-based incident. Vojdanic and Colonel Babic were

Page 1204

1 persons in charge -- Ojdanic and Colonel Babic were in charge of my

2 generation, and there wasn't a single ethnic-based incident that I knew

3 of.

4 Q. Whilst you held the duty of the head of year for the cadets who

5 were in infantry, did you not perform different duties in the Belgrade

6 Corps staff up until 1991?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And these were quite important duties?

9 A. Yes. I was commander of the regiment and head of the training

10 department.

11 Q. In your work in this particular time period, after you assumed

12 these commanding duties in mid-1980s up until 1991, did you experience any

13 discrimination among soldiers?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Mr. Maksic, did you hear of and did you know General Spegelj?

16 A. Yes. For the four years I was the commander of the regiment, the

17 Chief of Staff of the first army was General Spegelj, therefore he was my

18 immediate superior and that was, to me, a very high position.

19 Q. Did I understand you well, General Spegelj was Chief of Staff of

20 the first army stationed in Belgrade?

21 A. Yes. At the time I was the commander of the 151st Regiment of the

22 first army because this regiment was part of the 22nd Division and the

23 22nd Division was part of the 1st Army. This particular regiment was

24 subject to frequent inspections by the army, and two or three times, if

25 not even more, Martin Spegelj would be party to that inspection tour.

Page 1205

1 Q. Who was commander of the 1st Army when General Spegelj was Chief

2 of Staff?

3 A. General Gracanin.

4 Q. Who was commander of the army in Zagreb at the time -- or rather,

5 let's say in 1991?

6 A. I can't remember.

7 Q. Does the name of General Konrad Kolsek mean anything to you?

8 A. I wanted to say Kolsek, but I wasn't sure. I know him but that

9 was way back when I was a young officer. He was commander of the 21st

10 Division in the defence of the town of Belgrade.

11 Q. Did you watch the movie screened in January 1991 in all the

12 Yugoslav TV stations featuring General Spegelj and Minister Boljkovac who

13 was Croatian minister of police?

14 A. Yes, I recall that. I saw the footage several times, if you're

15 referring to the film which had to do with the organisation and the action

16 of some individuals in the area of Slavonia. I think that the film was

17 shot in Slavonia, if that's the same film you're referring to.

18 Q. This particular footage, does it concern the distribution of arms?

19 A. Yes. And also the killing of officers, their families, wives, and

20 children, if that's the footage you're referring to.

21 Q. Yes, I am.

22 A. Yes, I recall some details; others I've forgotten.

23 Q. Are you aware of the fact that in January 1991 the SFRY Presidency

24 took a decision to disarm all the paramilitary formations in the area of

25 the former Yugoslavia and in -- to bring all the police forces under the

Page 1206

1 legal structure?

2 A. I know that the SFRY Presidency passed such a decision. I was

3 involved in its implementation. The defence of the city of Belgrade

4 comprised the largest number of staffs because we had 16 municipalities

5 and 16 TO staffs. I remember that as a matter of urgency, all the weapons

6 and equipment contained in TO depots was supposed to be relocated to JNA

7 depots; in other words, they were to be taken from the jurisdiction of the

8 TOs into the jurisdiction of the JNA. I don't know about this part

9 concerning paramilitary formations. I don't know on which date this was

10 in 1991, whether it was in early 1991.

11 Q. I was referring to the SFRY Presidency decision dating from

12 January 1991, but if you're not familiar with that particular one, we will

13 not dwell on it.

14 A. At the time there weren't any armed paramilitary formations.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt. It looks like we are keeping up a

16 very fast pace again. If we can remember what you admonished the witness

17 about a little earlier.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We

19 will keep this in mind.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. We will have to slow down a bit.

23 A. I understand.

24 Q. Please pause a while before answering my question.

25 A. Thank you.

Page 1207

1 Q. Do you remember any armed conflict in early March in Pakrac and do

2 you know who took part in it?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Are you familiar with the SFRY Presidency session in March 1991

5 upon -- called upon the proposal of the JNA General Staff to introduce a

6 state of emergency?

7 A. I don't know anything beyond what I read in the press and the

8 order of the first administration of the General Staff on the preparation

9 of units.

10 Q. Do you recall that in June 1991 Slovenia and Croatia passed

11 decisions on their secession from Yugoslavia?

12 A. Yes, I read that in the press.

13 Q. Following these decisions by Slovenia and Croatia in late June

14 1991 concerning the secession -- their secession from Yugoslavia, do you

15 recall the JNA's intervention in Slovenia?

16 A. I remember -- what did you say, "Varazdin court"?

17 Q. Do you recall what the task of the JNA units was? They mentioned

18 borders.

19 A. As far as I know, their role was to occupy the key border posts

20 together with the federal police force headed by Commander --

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because at the time the federal

23 police force did not hold any ranks as far as I remember.

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Prior to --

Page 1208

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: We heard the interpreter say she didn't hear the

2 name of the commander who headed that federal police force. Do you think

3 you can establish the name for us, please?

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Maksic?

6 A. Mirko Jokic.

7 Q. Who was Mr. Mirko Jokic?

8 A. He was commander of the federal police brigade.

9 Q. Before this intervention, were the -- or did the Slovenian

10 authorities willfully take jurisdiction of the border post along their

11 borders?

12 A. That's the information that I have, too, but it is quite logical

13 that if somebody goes to attack someone else, it means that the other side

14 must have done something unlawful. And the Slovenians had unlawfully

15 taken control of their border. In Yugoslavia it was decided that the

16 border control and border traffic lay within the competence of the federal

17 police and local police, whereas the rest of the border was within the

18 competence of the JNA. So the federal brigade and the local police, since

19 they showed their solidarity -- or rather, it was the local police who

20 showed solidarity with the Slovenian TO, which is why the federal police

21 brigade had to intervene to occupy the border posts, and the JNA forces

22 arrived only at a later stage. This isn't something that I experienced.

23 I read about it. I talked to people who participated in these

24 operations.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. Could you please make sure that in

Page 1209

1 answering your -- my questions, you clearly draw the line between what you

2 experienced personally and what you know from secondary sources.

3 Very often the figure of 1.900 men is used as a force that was

4 sent from Belgrade as the JNA force to intervene in Slovenia. Are you

5 aware of these numbers?

6 A. No, I don't know anything about how many soldiers were sent over.

7 Q. Do you know whether any armed conflicts ensued in Slovenia,

8 whether the members of the TO and the police force attacked the JNA

9 soldiers?

10 A. The Belgrade archives indicate that the Territorial Defence units

11 attacked the JNA. As far as I remember, 19 soldiers were killed and they

12 were unarmed at that. They had surrendered. However, I did not bother to

13 double-check this particular figure. I'm telling you what I learned from

14 the archives. I also found out something about it from the press; I'm not

15 sure whether it's true or not.

16 Q. Mr. Maksic, what does this mean, the fact that 19 unarmed soldiers

17 who had surrendered were killed?

18 A. I watched a documentary which showed a soldier holding his

19 position. Two Slovenian armed soldiers appeared. This person threw his

20 weapon down, raised his arms, and the Slovene men shot him. That's what I

21 had in mind.

22 Q. Do you know that the Yugoslav Presidency passed a decision to the

23 effect that the JNA forces provisionally withdraw from Slovenia in order

24 to avoid further casualties, both among the soldiers and the civilians?

25 A. No, I don't.

Page 1210

1 Q. Do you know anything about the period when the JNA barracks in

2 Croatia were blocked and attacked, if you know the date?

3 A. I don't know the date. I only know that the blockades of the

4 barracks were mounted, and this is something that is contained in the

5 reports of the JNA units. I know, for instance, about the Varazdin

6 barracks where there was General Trifunovic that was blocked. But others

7 were blocked by the Croatian forces.

8 Q. Mr. Maksic, what constituted the armed forces of Yugoslavia, which

9 elements were there?

10 A. The armed forces of Yugoslavia were made by the JNA, the

11 Territorial Defence, and the civilian protection. However, the

12 Territorial Defence was found to be quite problematic by the military

13 personnel because there were two types of the TO.

14 Q. But we will get back -- get back to that a bit later. I'm

15 interested in something else at the moment. You said that the JNA units

16 and barracks were blocked by the Yugoslav army, but what sort of --

17 THE INTERPRETER: By the Croatian army, Interpreter's correction.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. What sort of a Croatian army are you speaking of in 1991?

20 A. The Croatian Territorial Defence.

21 Q. Do you know who ordered Croatian Territorial Defence to block the

22 barracks?

23 A. No, I don't know that.

24 Q. Do you consider such a Territorial Defence of Croatia to be

25 regular military forces, pursuant to the constitution of Yugoslavia,

Page 1211

1 especially in view of them attacking the regular federal armed force, the

2 JNA?

3 A. Your question contains two questions. The first question I would

4 answer in the following way. The TO of Croatia or of any other republic

5 while the SFRY was still unified represented a regular force, legally

6 established, regular force. As for your second question, I apologise, but

7 I didn't catch it. Did have a right to attack?

8 Q. Yes, and how do you qualify that?

9 A. No, they had no right to do that, and it can be qualified as a

10 rebellion of part of the units which constitute unified armed forces. It

11 could be termed as armed rebellion.

12 Q. Mr. Maksic, this took place of Croatia adopted a decision to

13 secede from Yugoslavia. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that is correct. However, I don't know -- rather, I can't

15 remember the date. The decision on secession is one thing, but whether it

16 was recognised by the international community or other states, that's a

17 different thing.

18 Q. Yes, Mr. Maksic, those are two different issues and we'll get back

19 to that later. Did you hear of an affair involving an airplane known as

20 Kikas affair from Uganda in August of 1991? Do you know anything about

21 this?

22 A. I talked to Bajic. This plane landed at the Zagreb airport, if we

23 are having the same affair in mind. The plane was loaded with weapons,

24 and units of the corps led by General Bajic seized the plane and

25 confiscated the weapons. I heard of this from people who partially took

Page 1212

1 part in this operation, if that was your question.

2 Q. That's precisely what I had in mind, Mr. Maksic. Do you know any

3 details surrounding the blockades and attacks on the barracks? How was

4 that carried out? Were only individual barracks involved or all of them?

5 Do you know anything about power cuts, water supply cuts, and so on?

6 A. These are two terms, attacks and blocking the barracks, at least

7 in the military terminology. An attack on barracks is performed with an

8 aim to seize the barracks, the equipment, weaponry, and to use it for own

9 purposes. If that is impossible, then a blockade of barracks is carried

10 out, and all services to the barracks are cut off, all vital supplies

11 necessary for the people in the barracks to survive. This is what a

12 blockade is, because a force that is able to attack will not block. The

13 blockade of the barracks resembles, to a certain extent, the blockade of

14 Troy.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think this is

17 time for our regular break.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then we will take a short

19 break and come back at quarter to.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Mr. Maksic, we spoke about the blockades and attacks on the JNA

25 units and garrisons in the territory of the Republic of Croatia. Allow me

Page 1213

1 once again to remind you of the need to make pauses between questions and

2 answers.

3 A. I've understood.

4 Q. Mr. Maksic, we mentioned the units and barracks of the JNA in the

5 territory of the former Yugoslav Republic of Croatia. These units and

6 barracks that you are aware of, did they exist for many years prior to

7 that in the territory of that republic as well as in the territories of

8 other republics?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is it true that many barracks and garrisons are located in

11 populated areas, in towns and cities, that they were located within an

12 urban centre?

13 A. The barracks were constructed many years ago, and cities expanded

14 in the meantime and then the barracks found themselves in an urban centre.

15 So your statement is true.

16 Q. Do you remember what was the position of Croatian authorities on

17 the eve of Croatian declaration of independence and after that? What was

18 their position vis-a-vis JNA?

19 A. As early as in the beginning of June and July, a large number of

20 officers of Croatian nationality asked for their service in the JNA to be

21 terminated. Many soldiers deserted from the JNA; they flew -- they fled.

22 Q. Do you think that the information provided by many cabinet members

23 of the government of Franjo Tudjman is true, namely, that the JNA was

24 defeated from within once 17.000 JNA officers and soldiers left and went

25 from the JNA to the Croatian army?

Page 1214

1 A. I don't know the exact number of officers and soldiers who left

2 the JNA; I know it's a large number. I don't know whether this was done

3 under the influence of the Croatian government or somebody else's

4 influence. I suppose that the recommendation of the Croatian government

5 was such that officers and soldiers of Croatian nationality ought to leave

6 the JNA, not only those who were stationed in Serbia, but also those who

7 were stationed in Macedonia, Bosnia, and elsewhere.

8 Q. Upon completing military academy in the JNA, does every officer,

9 upon taking a post with the JNA, have to take an oath?

10 A. Upon arrival at the military academy, some 15 days after that,

11 every student has to take an oath which is basically a solemn declaration

12 whereby he promises that he will faithfully serve and protect integrity

13 and sovereignty of every part of Yugoslavia. At the end there was a

14 stipulation stating that in defence of sovereignty and territorial

15 integrity and inviolability of the territory such an officer would be

16 prepared to die. Also at the end of the academy, each officer had to sign

17 an affidavit stating that he would accept the assignment given to him by

18 the personnel administration, wherever that assignment might take him.

19 Q. Do you know that the JNA officers who were of Croatian nationality

20 upon leaving the JNA would go and join the Croatian formations which were

21 fighting against the JNA?

22 A. Yes, I know a dozen such cases, and all of them in 1991, upon

23 leaving the JNA or requesting to go into early retirement, went and joined

24 Croatian armed forces, Bacic, Ivan, Basic, Miro, and all of my pals from

25 the army did that. I later read about them, saw them on television, and

Page 1215

1 realised that they were members of Croatian armed forces and they were

2 appointed to very high posts, starting from the commander of a brigade and

3 up.

4 Q. These officers who -- or rather, did these officers, in your view,

5 betray their state, Yugoslavia? Did they join the other side in order to

6 fight Yugoslavia?

7 A. Whether they betrayed Yugoslavia or not, I think they did and they

8 also violated the constitutions -- constitution and the laws of

9 Yugoslavia. And they would have been prosecuted criminally, had they

10 remained in the territory of Serbia. They violated the constitution and

11 committed a treason in relation to the oath or the solemn declaration that

12 they took and signed, making a promise to the state of Yugoslavia.

13 Q. You said that the attacks in the territory of the former Yugoslav

14 Republic of Croatia, the attacks against the JNA units and garrisons

15 represented an armed rebellion. Did the federal state have a

16 constitutional obligation to put down that rebellion?

17 A. Yes, it did, both pursuant to the Law on People's Defence and the

18 Army of Yugoslavia and in accordance with the rules of service. Rules of

19 service represent an excerpt from the law on people's defence. It was

20 something that was available to each officer and soldier in order not to

21 make them read all the laws. This was given to them, presented to them,

22 in the form of an excerpt, which were these rules of service.

23 Q. Do you know that the leadership of Croatia which was in charge of

24 Croatian secession from Yugoslavia called the Yugoslav army the

25 "occupation army" and the "aggressor's army"?

Page 1216

1 A. Yes, I read that in the papers. I read that in official

2 interviews given by the leaders of Croatian state -- or rather Croatian

3 republic.

4 Q. Mr. Maksic, you completed all military schools, including the

5 highest ones. In your view, was the JNA an aggressor's army and the

6 occupation army in its on territory?

7 A. No. An army cannot be an aggressor's army in its own territory.

8 Therefore, the JNA could under no circumstances, pursuant to any law, be

9 it domestic or an international one, be considered an aggressor's army in

10 its own territory.

11 Q. Mr. Maksic, did you read in the papers or did you hear on

12 television that even in the European community at the time condemned the

13 JNA as the aggressor's army? Is it true?

14 A. It's true that they did it; however, that was not a logical step.

15 Q. What do you mean "was true"? You mean that it was true that they

16 condemned the JNA but that that wasn't logical?

17 A. That's what I meant, they condemned the JNA, not all European

18 countries, certain ones. It wasn't logical for them to condemn the JNA.

19 Most likely they were not familiar with the internal laws regulating the

20 relations between the federal armed forces and the federal state.

21 Q. Did the Yugoslav armed forces have both the right and the duty to

22 operate throughout the territory of Yugoslavia?

23 A. Absolutely.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1217

1 Q. Did the armed forces of Yugoslavia in their operations in 1991,

2 1992, through to 1995 ever step beyond the borders, internationally

3 recognised borders, of Yugoslavia?

4 A. No, at that point in time did they go beyond the internationally

5 recognised borders of Yugoslavia.

6 Q. Are you familiar with the event which transpired in Split in May

7 1991 which was popularly known as the strangling of soldiers?

8 A. Yes, I know of this event from the TV.

9 Q. Can you tell us briefly what happened.

10 A. As far as I remember, this was a group of Ustasha that rebelled,

11 and there was a group of soldiers which was part of the Split garrison who

12 were normally in charge of maintaining law and order in the area who came

13 out of the barracks in an APC. And one of the men from the group of

14 rebels climbed on top of the APC, drew the -- one of the crew out of the

15 APC and started strangling him. The man who was being strangled was a

16 Macedonian. However, other people jumped to his assistance. The JNA

17 committed a mistake in omitting to bring the perpetrators to justice and

18 prosecuting them. I believe that this was a result of a political

19 agreement between Slovenia and Croatia to calm the situation down and to

20 prevent matters from deteriorating. However, this was a sign of things

21 having gone wrong in the country. The chief of the General Staff and the

22 Federal Secretary for National Defence were duty-bound under the

23 constitution to prevent such acts from happening through the use of their

24 forces, but they failed to do so.

25 Q. Do you know that in early 1991, in April, the trial started

Page 1218

1 against General Spegelj and some of his associates for illegal

2 distribution of weapons, and do you know what the outcome of this trial in

3 Zagreb was?

4 A. Yes, I do recall that General Spegelj was charged with high

5 treason for importing weapons with a view to using them against the Serb

6 civilians. But however, I know that General Spegelj fled, absconded, to

7 Austria, and that was the end of it. I read about it in the press.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last

9 sentence he said.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Did you hear that the blockade of the garrisons and barracks in

12 Croatia were --

13 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Milovancevic, the witness [Microphone not

14 activated].

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Her Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Put your question again.

17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Milovancevic --

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Earlier on the witness was being asked to repeat

20 the last sentence before you went into your last question. Thank you.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Maksic, for the sake of the record, you were talking about the

23 start of trial against Mr. Spegelj. Can you tell us again what happened

24 and whether the trial was brought to the end.

25 A. An indictment was issued against Spegelj, and the trial started;

Page 1219

1 however, several days later Spegelj absconded and fled to Austria as far

2 as I know. I don't know what happened to him later on, but I know that he

3 left the Republic of Croatia before his trial was brought to an end.

4 Q. Did you hear of the National Guards Corps, and if you have, what

5 does that mean?

6 A. The National Guards Corps is a paramilitary unit which was getting

7 prepared for combat and gathering equipment. Later on it evolved into the

8 Croatian army. The Republic of Croatia illegally imported weapons to

9 equip these units. As far as I know, the National Guards Corps was --

10 consist -- was made up of volunteers. It was supposed to be the elite

11 unit of the Croatian army in charge of accomplishing all the missions that

12 the other units were unable to perform.

13 Q. Do you know whether the National Guards Corps units took part in

14 the attacks on the JNA barracks in what was Croatia in 1991?

15 A. I don't know whether these ZNG units indeed took part in the

16 attacks on the JNA barracks, but I do know that they were the leaders of

17 these attacks.

18 Q. Can you clarify this a bit. You are not certain of their

19 participation, but what is your basis -- what is the basis of your

20 conclusion?

21 A. I'm not sure whether units themselves, such as a battalion or a

22 company of the ZNG, actually took part in these operations. But I do know

23 that ZNG members, officers were at the head of those who launched these

24 attacks.

25 Q. I wish to ask you about some events that were quite prominent in

Page 1220

1 the media. Do you know anything about the sufferings of the members of

2 the TO in September 1991?

3 A. I do know that a group of men set out to get some supplies and

4 that they were killed over the -- on the Korana bridge. I don't know any

5 other details surrounding this event.

6 Q. Do you know you how the Serbian authorities -- or rather, how the

7 Croatian authorities, led by Tudjman, treated the Serbian population in

8 Croatia?

9 A. There's nothing I can tell you about that.

10 Q. Do you know anything of the operations of the Croatian forces in

11 Slavonia, Bila Gora, Pakrac, Daruvar?

12 A. No. I know only what I read in the press, but that is too little

13 for me to be able to give you any view on that.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. In your earlier testimony you told us that

15 on the 1st of October, 1991, you were sent by the Federal Secretariat for

16 National Defence to the territory of Krajina, namely, Knin. Is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Which JNA corps was in charge of Knin and of Dalmatia in general?

20 A. The 9th Corps of the JNA of the 5th Army. The commander was Tomo

21 Vukovic, who got killed in 1992 or 1993, and the Chief of Staff was Ratko

22 Mladic. I had many dealings with them. I cooperated with them, exchanged

23 information on the situation in the area. He was far better informed than

24 I was. As for the other high-ranking officers there, they rotated quite

25 frequently. The corps command is the commander, Chief of Staff, chief for

Page 1221

1 security, chief for training and operations, and so on.

2 Q. Mr. Maksic, for the record you stated the name of Mr. Vukovic. Is

3 his name Vladimir or --

4 A. Yes, Vladimir.

5 Q. You said "Tomo."

6 A. I made a mistake.

7 Q. Therefore, is it Vladimir Vukovic, General Vladimir Vukovic,

8 commander of the 9th Corps?

9 A. Yes. I made a mistake because we called him "Tomo," so I used his

10 nickname, rather than his actual first name.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic.

12 At the time you arrived in Knin, did the 9th Corps carry out an

13 operation of lifting the blockades of the JNA barracks that were within

14 his -- its area of responsibility?

15 A. From what I heard, Zemunik, the blockade of Zemunik and Sibenik

16 was supposed to be lifted. The same was also true for Sinj, where the

17 assets that were found there were supposed to be taken into the Krajina

18 territory. There was an engineers' regiment in Sinj which held great

19 quantities of equipment. As for Sibenik, Zemunik, Zadar, there were large

20 numbers of troops and amounts of hardware, which had to be pulled out of

21 there. Some of it was pulled out, some of it was left behind. I believe

22 it was on the 30th of September that there was an attempt to pull the

23 equipment out, but the operation was aborted on the order of the Chief of

24 Staff.

25 Q. You said that the blockades in Sibenik, Zemunik, and Sinj were

Page 1222

1 supposed to be lifted. What were these features? Were they JNA

2 facilities?

3 A. Yes, they were JNA barracks and JNA features which had to be taken

4 out of the blockade, and I mean troops and equipment, and taken to the

5 Krajina area. It was highly likely that the 9th Corps together with the

6 other forces of Krajina would, in fact, seize Northern Dalmatia, Sinj, and

7 Zemunik. That was the actual balance of power; however, the chief of the

8 General Staff did not give the green light for the action because it was

9 thought that some space should be left for a political solution to be

10 found.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. Let us make things quite clear. You said

12 that the 9th Corps was trying to lift the blockade of the JNA features

13 containing equipment and troops. Who was maintaining the blockade of all

14 these JNA buildings?

15 A. Those were the Croatian forces.

16 Q. Were these forces the same ones that you mentioned as having

17 committed a rebellion?

18 A. Yes, those same ones. We - and when I say -- I mean, we're

19 talking about matters that are in the realm of operations and tactics.

20 When a rebellion emerges in a country, it is usually resolved and crushed

21 with own forces. There would have been no difficulty for the JNA, with

22 the forces that it had in its possession, including the air force, all of

23 which were under the command of General Bajic, to resolve this matter

24 entirely. However, it was left to the political sphere to resolve the

25 matter so that the army ever since 1991 was the victim of politics.

Page 1223

1 Q. You said that the JNA had enough troops and equipment and

2 weapons - and I mean the 9th Corps - to seize Sibenik, Zemunik, Sinj. Did

3 it have enough forces to capture and seize Split as well?

4 A. Yes, because once you seize Zadar, Split automatically falls.

5 Q. Mr. Maksic, you said that the JNA refrained from this action

6 because of the decision to resolve it politically?

7 A. It's not that it refrained; it was banned from doing that.

8 Ultimately it was the Presidency that disallowed it and opted for the

9 political solution; therefore, it was a stop-go/stop-go situation all the

10 while, and the JNA did not have a clear situation in which it could orient

11 itself.

12 Q. Are you talking about 1991. Who was at the head of the Presidency

13 of the SFRY at the time? Wasn't it Stjepan Mesic?

14 A. Yes, I believe so. Don't take me on that one, but I believe, yes,

15 it was Stipe Mesic who uttered this famous statement of his which became

16 part of history of political science that he -- his mission was

17 accomplished and that Yugoslavia was no more.

18 Q. Was Ante Markovic prime minister of Yugoslavia? Was the foreign

19 minister Budimir Loncar, both of them Croats?

20 A. I have trouble with dates and names. I can't be specific when it

21 comes to that.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. Did you know that Zemunik was supposed to

23 be deblocked? What is Zemunik? What was located there?

24 A. There were some units there, air force academy, air force

25 secondary school. There were also some formations of the air force there

Page 1224

1 as well which were quite significant for armed combat.

2 Q. Was there an airport there as well used by the JNA?

3 A. Yes. Yes, of course there was an airport. It was an air force

4 base.

5 Q. So the task of the 9th Corps of the JNA was to deblock all of

6 these cities, Sibenik, Zadar, and so on, plus Zemunik.

7 A. Yes. As you know, it is not proper to speak ill of the death, of

8 the dead people, and I spoke to -- to the commander who was in charge. I

9 also had opportunity to see his decision concerning Sibenik, Zadar,

10 Zemunik, and so on which were supposed to be taken militarily. The attack

11 had already been launched so that people from Sibenik, Zadar, Zemunik were

12 already leaving populated settlements in boats and so on. However, some

13 way -- somewhere half into the operation when the operation was in its

14 greatest swing and when all branches and services of the JNA were

15 involved, we found ourselves at that point in time at the command post.

16 Everything was going fine, I mean for those attacking. And then all of a

17 sudden an order arrived sometime at around 3.00 a.m. to pull everything

18 back to starting positions. The order arrived from the chief of General

19 Staff.

20 Q. What did that mean "militarily"? Was it positive for the JNA

21 units or for the Croatian side?

22 A. For the JNA units which took part in the attack, not only the JNA

23 units but also forces of municipal TO and police which were also engaged,

24 and I don't have information on their numbers, represented a

25 disappointment and harassment. And this dealt a blow to the morale of the

Page 1225

1 army.

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see OTP

3 document 1857 from the 65 ter list, please. This was exhibited as Exhibit

4 P49.

5 Q. Before this document comes up on our monitors, Mr. Maksic, I will

6 tell you that this is a document of the 9th Corps command dated the 31st

7 of October, 1991, which is entitled "order for assault operation on

8 Sibenik, operations number 2, excerpt for the Territorial Defence staff of

9 SAO Krajina."

10 Did you see this document?

11 A. No. This is an excerpt from the order of the corps commander for

12 assault operation on Sibenik. See, we don't have a map here, but if

13 Sibenik were to fall, Zadar, and Split would fall as well. This is an

14 excerpt intended for the TO Staff of Krajina for them to be informed of

15 what was planned in the assault operation as well as of the role and place

16 of the TO units. However, I saw the integral order. This is just an

17 excerpt, and that is precisely what is stated here. You can see in the

18 second line. It says: "Excerpt for the TO Staff," which means that this

19 is not an integral order of the 9th Corps commander.

20 Q. Based on the text in paragraph 2, 3, 4, and 5 on page 1 where

21 Croatian forces are discussed, based on that text is it clear that these

22 were armed and equipped Croatian forces that the JNA was supposed to

23 engage and implement the mission that it was assigned?

24 A. You see, the information provided in paragraphs 1 through 5, this

25 is what you have in mind. Right?

Page 1226

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. This information was obtained via intelligence activity of the

3 security organ of the 9th Corps. The security organ of the 9th Corps --

4 am I going it too fast?

5 Q. No, that's quite fine.

6 A. The security organ of the 9th Corps concluded, established,

7 conducted reconnaissance, and so on and came to conclusion that the 113th

8 Brigade of the ZNG was engaged in that area, that there was a police

9 company with a -- one to two detachments of the Territorial Defence. I'm

10 not sure what it says here, or maybe this is the APCs, two mortars and so

11 on.

12 So the intelligence officers of the 9th Corps acquired information

13 as to what was in the territory that they were supposed to be deployed to

14 and take.

15 Q. Mr. Maksic, does it state in paragraph 2 that in defence of

16 Sibenik there is the 113th Brigade of the ZNG engaged without one

17 battalion, up to two police battalions of the police administration of

18 Sibenik, about two companies of armed locals, then cannons, four by 130,

19 and cannons, six by 80-80, and up to two artillery pieces of

20 85-millimetres. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's precisely correct what you read out, counsel. And

22 then where it says on the stretch, Cista Mala Gacelezi Juzno and so on,

23 there is the 2nd Battalion of the 113th Brigade, and everything else you

24 enumerated is correct. I don't know whether it was correct. The

25 intelligence people claimed that this was correct. Based on this

Page 1227

1 information, the planning of these forces was implemented in view of the

2 resources of the 9th Corps, which had an artillery regiment for several

3 divisions and so on. And when you take that into account, you will see

4 that the forces on the other side were quite insufficient.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. Let us take a look at page 3, the last

6 four digits of that page are 4463, the ERN digits. Before it comes up on

7 the screen I will read the text to you, and then later on you can confirm

8 whether I read it out correctly.

9 A. I have it on the screen.

10 Q. All right. Great. What was the mission of the 9th Corps? What

11 does General Vukovic say? Can you read it out for us?

12 A. Could I see the -- yeah, that's good. Yeah, just a little bit

13 more. Scroll down. Yes, that's good, that's fine.

14 Item 4. In -- each order specifies what the commander has

15 decided.

16 It says here: "I have decided to use strong artillery and air

17 force support in coordination with parts of the military naval district,

18 84th air force base, and the units of Territorial Defence of SAO Krajina

19 to use main forces of the corps to attack Sibenik," which means that the

20 main goal was to attack Sibenik. And I told you why Sibenik was so

21 important, because if Sibenik fell, then Split and Zadar fell as well.

22 Q. All right. Would you please read to us the section which is

23 entitled "mission," which is just a little bit above?

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could you scroll up?

25 Q. Item 3 -- above item 3 are the words "mission" or "task."

Page 1228

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please scroll up on

2 the monitor.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good.

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Just a little bit more, please,

5 where it says "mission."

6 Q. Would you please read out "mission" for us.

7 A. "Crush enemy forces and seize roads. Arrive at the outskirts of

8 Sibenik. Introduce the 2nd Operations Echelon" -- may I clarify this?

9 Q. Would you please read until the end, and then you can explain to

10 us.

11 A. "Continue action, deblock personnel and all military facilities in

12 Sibenik, repulse the attack or forces from the town, create necessary time

13 for relocation of deblocked technical and combat resources and personnel,

14 encircle and force enemy forces to surrender."

15 Q. That's enough, Mr. Maksic. Do you have any comments? Does this

16 confirm what you told us just prior?

17 A. Yes. The 1st Echelon is to go and pierce the defence line, and

18 these people will suffer great losses. And then this will bring them to

19 the outskirts of Sibenik. This is where they have to stop because they

20 have no power anymore. They have used up their power in order to get

21 there. And then the 2nd Operative Echelon is introduced which is supposed

22 to carry on the mission and do what I read out under this

23 section "mission," namely, to deblock and pull out the resources, whereas

24 those forces, enemy forces remaining in Sibenik are to be encircled and

25 destroyed. I can explain to you what it means to destroy them.

Page 1229

1 Q. Mr. Maksic, we will get to that later. Will you please now turn

2 to page 7 which has ERN number 4467. Could we see item 7, please, which

3 is entitled "moral support." Could you please scroll up a little bit so

4 we can see item 7.2 in its entirety, please.

5 In item 7.2, Mr. Maksic, would you please read out the second

6 paragraph.

7 A. "Prior to the beginning of assault operation, informed entire

8 personnel on the goal and necessity of conducting further combat activity

9 no in order to deblock units in the Sibenik garrison. Pull out huge

10 combat resources and full disarmament of enemy forces of MUP and the

11 so-called ZNG," which is the National Guards Corps.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. Now the penultimate paragraph in this

13 section "moral support" -- or rather, the last one, please.

14 A. Yes. Shall I read it out?

15 Q. Please do.

16 A. "Prevent looting, revenge, torching of houses and other

17 facilities; and in this manner, spread trust in the forces which are

18 conducting combat; inform soldiers of detrimental effects of such

19 incidents, especially reiterate the importance of preserving religious --

20 especially reiterate the need for preserving religious facilities,

21 cathedrals, churches, and cultural monuments."

22 Q. What you just read out, Mr. Maksic, is it in other words with the

23 information that you had about the goals and missions of the 9th Corps at

24 the time in September and October -- or rather, while the 9th Corps was

25 active in its area of responsibility?

Page 1230

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In the indictment the Prosecution claims the opposite, namely,

3 that that wasn't goal, but rather that the goal was to use the JNA, the

4 police, the Territorial Defence, and volunteers which they call Serb

5 forces, and says that it was their goal to encircle the villages, to use

6 aviation, artillery, to force the population to flee, and then to have the

7 besieging forces enter such villages, kill all the remaining population,

8 and set property on fire, and so on. Do you have such information? Did

9 you hear of such a thing, Mr. Maksic?

10 A. No. I don't have such a document. I never heard of that. Is

11 there such a document?

12 Q. I'm putting to you what the Prosecution claims, and I'm asking you

13 whether this is true.

14 A. No, not a single written or oral order contains anything of that

15 nature. This was not done either by military or police officers. Why am

16 I saying this? I don't know all police officers, senior officers, and

17 inspectors, but I know a lot of them. I know how they were schooled. I

18 also organised training for police personnel. And not a single Yugoslav

19 soldier was ever told anything this ugly.

20 Q. Mr. Maksic, you say that you stayed in the territory of Knin and

21 Krajina from the 1st of October until the end of December 1991?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You said that you held meetings with various people, politicians,

24 including the most influential politicians, Martic and Babic, who were the

25 most influential at the time; that you also met with commanders and

Page 1231

1 members of TO staffs, with the JNA officers?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you ever hear from any of them that there was an idea, a plan,

4 an order, a suggestion to kill all non-Serb population, to make them flee,

5 to drive them away in order to attach this territory to a new Serb state?

6 A. Let me answer your first question. Yes, I held a lot of meetings,

7 not official ones but also official ones, mostly with Milan Babic as

8 supreme commander of the armed forces of Krajina. I never heard from him

9 anything of the sort, although he was quite a narrow-minded person when it

10 comes to the military and Krajina. You know, he would, for example, point

11 out to me, the barracks are here, Krajina would go up to here, but he

12 would never say that there were no Croats in that area, that Croats would

13 be driven out; rather, he spoke about the territory, not the population.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic.

15 A. I met with Martic several times, but I never discussed these

16 matters with him, I never asked him anything to that effect or anything of

17 the sort. But I know what I saw. I saw the police force -- how I saw

18 them behave, and I never saw any members of the police force discriminate

19 against people along the ethnic lines, that they ever made the distinction

20 that this person was a Serb and the other a Croat.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for --

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt, please, Mr. Milovancevic.

24 Mr. Maksic told us that he held a lot of meetings, not official

25 ones but also official ones, mostly with Milan Babic. And then he goes on

Page 1232

1 for quite some time up to the end of that paragraph. Then you

2 say: "Thank you, Mr. Maksic." And then he says: "I met with Martic

3 several times."

4 Are we talking about Martic or are we talking about Babic? I'm

5 just not quite sure what's happened?

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. For clarity's sake, you said you had several meetings with

8 Mr. Babic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that you met with Martic only rarely and for brief periods?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you ever discuss these matters with Mr. Martic and did he ever

13 say that anybody had to be killed or chased away because the person was of

14 a different ethnicity?

15 A. I never discussed these matters with him. It would have been out

16 of place for me to discuss these matters with him, but I talked to other

17 members of the police force and we discussed these matters. Martic's

18 police never made any distinction between the perpetrators of a crime

19 along their ethnic line, whether a perpetrator was a Serb or a Croat.

20 They were treated in the same way, and that's what I said.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. In your statement for the OTP, and I

22 believe also during your testimony here, you said that you were shown

23 documents governing the action on Saborsko, which is a small village near

24 the Plitvice lake.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show

Page 1233

1 Prosecution Exhibit 1251 on the screen.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do -- before we do that, what must we do

3 with this one that's on the screen right now?

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that document is

5 already a Prosecution exhibit.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] It's already in the file.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Document 1251. This is the 65

10 ter number, and this is already an exhibit, 52.

11 Q. Before this document comes up on the screen, I will tell you,

12 Mr. Maksic, that according to the heading of the document this is the

13 order for attack, operations number 2, addressed to the command of the

14 Tactical Group 2. I believe we have it on our screens now. Mr. Maksic?

15 A. I'm listening.

16 Q. Do you see the document on the screen and do you see that it is

17 indeed the command of the 13th Corps and that the document is dated 7th

18 November 1991?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I will refer you to item 1 of the order which reads: "The forces

21 of the MUP and the ZNG Croatia have been making fortifications for some

22 time now in the area of the villages of Borik, Saborsko, Funtana, Panjici,

23 and Kuselj. It is estimated that the strength of the forces in the area

24 is of some 400 members of the paramilitary formations. There is

25 information indicating that some of these extremist Ustasha are ready,

Page 1234

1 dug-in and prepared for a long-lasting struggle."

2 Let's move down and look at the point where it says: "So far the

3 following firing positions were observed in the area of the village of

4 Borik, north-south there are six machine-gun emplacements, and at the

5 other end of the village, the southern end of the village, some 50 Ustasha

6 are to be found in houses."

7 Then it says: "South of the village Tuk there is a machine-gun

8 emplacement and south of the village of Brdine there are two

9 sub-machine-gun emplacements. To the north-west of the trigonometric

10 point Alan there are 738 82-millimetre mortars, or rather, there are

11 seven -- that trigonometric point 748 there is an unknown number of

12 82-millimetre mortars and in a grove there is a group of houses where

13 there was a group of 200 Ustasha, and they were attacked by aviation. In

14 the village of Saborsko, estimates are that there are 150 Ustasha and as

15 many in the village of Funtana as well. In Mali Sivnik there is an

16 unknown number of 82-millimetre mortars, and west of two dirt roads there

17 is a machine-gun and a sub-machine-gun emplacement. In the region of

18 Razvala there is also a sub-machine-gun emplacement. In the village of

19 Kuselj -- in addition to the losses that they have we noticed enemy forces

20 of an unknown strength. As far as we can tell, the enemy is well-prepared

21 in organising of ambushes, and the firing system is -- has been put in

22 place and is able to attack all the approach roads to the settled places

23 and open areas and protect its own forces in the pull-out."

24 Therefore, this is an order of the command of the 13th Corps to

25 the Tactical Group 2. Can we conclude on the basis of this that this was

Page 1235

1 an organised taking-up of positions and firing points and that the enemy

2 has put in place an entire defence system, that's to say the Croatian

3 forces?

4 A. I've seen this document for the first time yesterday, and I tried

5 to make out something of it but I haven't been able to. This being on the

6 11th -- the 7th of November, I wouldn't know about anything being planned

7 along those lines. I know that nothing of the sort was, in fact,

8 implemented.

9 Q. Did you see this particular document? This is an order dated 7th

10 November.

11 A. Yes, I've seen this document. This is an order signed by Cedo

12 Bulat.

13 Q. No, Mr. Maksic, can we take a look at the page to see who signed

14 the order. This is page 7777, page 5 of this order for attack. Who

15 signed the document?

16 A. Slobodan Djordjevic.

17 Q. This was sent by the command of the 13th Corps, and this was a

18 forward command post in the village of Mukinje and it was issued on the

19 7th of November, 1991.

20 A. I don't know about this. I was in the area for some four or five

21 days in 1991 -- in November 1991.

22 Q. Mr. Maksic, I'm interested in the following. The order for attack

23 issued by whatever commander, in this case it's the 13th Corps, shouldn't

24 such an order state the strength of the enemy forces that the own forces

25 are to face?

Page 1236

1 A. Yes, by all means, they would state the intelligence that they

2 obtained.

3 Q. Does the document before you contain such figures? Aren't the

4 contents of this document in fact quite logical?

5 A. Do you mean the data contained in paragraph 1?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Yes, if they're true. This commander, Slobodan Djordjevic - I

8 have to tell you as an aside that I never heard of him - signed the

9 document, but it doesn't bear a stamp, which means that the order itself

10 is non-binding and null and void. Can we look at the next page, please?

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please show the

12 second page, page 2 of the document?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, when an order is drafted it

14 is signed. It also states who, in fact drafted it, who signed it.

15 There's a stamp, and then it also says who it was delivered to. Can we

16 turn to the next page, please?

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go back to the

18 beginning of the document? This is page 3. Could we go back to page 773.

19 Q. In this particular case against Mr. Martic, this fact should not

20 be in dispute; it should be substantiated by a series of documents and

21 witness statements. It's a fact that on the 12th of November, the

22 Tactical Group 2 under the command of Colonel Cedo Bulat conducted the

23 operation called the attack on Saborsko. What I'm showing to you now is a

24 document in the possession of the OTP which was obtained from an archive;

25 I don't know if it's an original or not. I merely wanted you to confirm

Page 1237

1 that the contents of the document are consistent with what is normally

2 written in an order.

3 A. Yes, that's correct. But normally a document bears a stamp; in

4 that way it is certified. The document, as it is now, is not certified

5 and I could have well written it myself. When the stamp is affixed to the

6 document, this guarantees that the person who signed the document in fact

7 wrote the document. I wish to tell you as an aside that I was trying

8 yesterday to locate these villages on the map, Saborsko, Funtana, Panjici,

9 but I haven't been able to.

10 Q. Mr. Maksic --

11 A. The document as a whole is not known to me.

12 Q. Very well. Then we won't be dealing with it anymore.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I ask that we be shown the last page of the

14 original document, in other words, the B/C/S document?

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please show page 7777

16 on the screen.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you scroll down, please. Okay. Thank you.

18 You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Maksic, you spoke of the action that was carried out by the

21 9th Corps to lift the blockade?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The action aimed at deblocking these features, what was its

24 outcome, do you know?

25 A. I can't tell you really how this was implemented. I know that

Page 1238

1 elements of the forces were pulled out; I don't know in what way. I only

2 talked of the operation carried out on the 31st of October, I believe -

3 that's the date of the order - when this was in fact to be done. We were

4 at the command post in Drnis. There was Vukovic, Djujic, and I was there.

5 I'm not sure, but I believe that Mr. Martic was there as well. And from

6 there, we followed the course of the deblocking operation when, in fact,

7 the action was aborted and the forces pulled back to their starting

8 positions.

9 Q. Is my understanding right that you speak of the time when the

10 attacks were launched and the Croats were already getting on boats to flee

11 the area?

12 A. Yes. The SAO Krajina units with the 9th Corps, which was in fact

13 in charge of the entire operation, were advancing and they were getting

14 close to Zadar. The Croatian forces started leaving the area, boarding

15 boats, to flee by sea.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to have to interrupt. There's one time

17 when two of you were talking and the interpreter was talking. I'm not

18 quite sure how the poor interpreter copes. Could we please go slow. I

19 see it's also 12.00, Mr. Milovancevic. How much longer do you want to go

20 on before we break?

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think this is a

22 good time for a break.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll adjourn and we'll come back at half

24 past.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

Page 1239

1 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, can we remember to please slow

3 down?

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Maksic, on the 1st of October you went to Krajina in Knin,

6 where you remained until the end of December 1991. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could it be said that in that period of time in the area of

9 responsibility of the 9th Corps of the JNA, which is where Knin was, there

10 existed a state of armed conflict or there existed armed operations?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You explained that there were problems with mobilisation. You

13 said that Croats had left. The 9th Corps of the JNA was not a Serb force,

14 but there was a significant problem with mobilisation. Is that true?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was it only the conscripts of Croat nationality who left the JNA

17 in 1991, or did members of other nationalities do the same? And if so,

18 which ones? Do you know anything about that? In order for you to

19 understand --

20 A. I'm listening.

21 Q. In order for you to understand my question, I'm referring to

22 conscripts from Slovenia, Macedonia, and Bosnia, including Serbia.

23 A. They left it, too, not in mass numbers, but there were individual

24 cases of desertion. People went back to Macedonia, to Bosnia, to Serbia.

25 I'm now referring to active soldiers, not reservists.

Page 1240

1 Q. You said that upon your arrival in Knin, you saw that whoever was

2 fit for military service had been mobilised either into the JNA or the

3 Krajina police?

4 A. Yes, plus the municipal TO units.

5 Q. Is it true that you explained that in order to create the Krajina

6 TO Staff, you needed 25 to 30 people and that only four of you were sent

7 to complete that mission, yourself, Colonel Djujic, and another two

8 officers?

9 A. Pursuant to the order of the head of personnel department of the

10 20th of September, 24 or 25 people were supposed to be sent, however, only

11 four went, the four that you mentioned.

12 Q. Does this mean that the order of the Federal Secretariat for

13 People's Defence, the order of commands subordinated to it envisioned that

14 24, 25 officers were supposed to be sent to Knin to perform that task, and

15 that only four of you responded to the order?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. You said that starting from the 1st of October until the end of

18 December, throughout your stay in Knin and Krajina, you did not receive a

19 single instruction, a single order from the Ministry of Defence of Serbia

20 pertaining to the organisation of Territorial Defence in Krajina?

21 A. No.

22 Q. In order to avoid any confusion in the transcript, you are

23 confirming that you did not receive any such order?

24 A. We received no orders, no information. We also did not receive

25 any instructions on the formation of the TO Staff of Krajina.

Page 1241

1 Q. Mr. Maksic, you explained that from August 1991 Krajina TO sent a

2 number of documents to the Ministry of Defence of Serbia and the General

3 Staff requesting equipment and weapons. Were these requests ever

4 responded to?

5 A. I said something similar, but I phrased it differently. I said

6 that I found documents signed by the Minister of Defence -- or rather, the

7 Secretary of Defence, I am not quite sure. I found requests by Mr. Martic

8 for certain equipment that was needed to equip the staff and also TO staff

9 units. This request was not sent to the General Staff, but rather the

10 Ministry of Defence of Serbia. In October this request was expanded and

11 supplemented and sent again by us. We received no reply and no equipment

12 except for several telephones, field telephones that were very old. We

13 received 30 to 40 of them, and they were not operational. With our units

14 and with our staffs in the entire territory of Krajina, we could not

15 communicate. We used police communication lines. Sometimes we used the

16 postal service, fax, and so on.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see on the monitor

19 OTP document 211 from the 65 ter list. This is Exhibit 41.

20 Q. This is a request for ammunition and other type of military

21 equipment sent to the Ministry of Defence of Serbia in Belgrade personally

22 to the minister, Mr. Simovic. The request was sent from Knin on the 18th

23 of September, 1991.

24 Mr. Maksic, we saw this request on our monitors. It has several

25 pages, and it contains a list of the equipment needed for the Territorial

Page 1242

1 Defence of Knin, Benkovac TO, Obrovac TO, and municipalities.

2 A. Yes, all municipalities, Gracac, Vrgin Most, Vojnic.

3 Q. This is a list containing all the rifles, combat sets, and other

4 types of equipment needed. Is this the document that you had in mind when

5 you said that you saw a request which was not responded to?

6 A. Yes. However, another issue is important here. I'm reading now.

7 "In relation to your telegram, strictly confidential 5-259 dated

8 12th of September, 1991, we are sending you the list of the supplies

9 needed by SAO Krajina."

10 Based on this request, we can conclude that the Ministry of

11 Defence of Serbia sent a telegram either to the minister or the secretary

12 of defence of Krajina, asking that a list of supplies needed be sent to

13 them. This list sent -- or rather, the Ministry of Defence of Serbia sent

14 a telegram to the Secretary of Defence of Krajina, asking that he send

15 them a list of needed supplies. Based on the telegram, we can conclude

16 Mr. Martic collected information from the municipal TO staffs and then

17 compiled them and sent the list of equipment and weapons needed by the

18 municipal TO staffs. This is what I had in mind.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. You said that in addition to this request

20 there were also other requests, renewed requests, but that you received

21 nothing in return, except for those 30 to 40 telephones?

22 A. Could you please scroll up?

23 Q. No, no, we need the bottom of the page.

24 A. Further, please. Further, please, if possible.

25 Q. We need the second page.

Page 1243

1 A. Or perhaps the last page. It doesn't matter. Can we see the next

2 page, please.

3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can you move down the document,

4 please, for Mr. Maksic.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can we see further, the end of the

6 document?

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please show us the

8 last portion of the document, page 7601, page 9 of the document. Can we

9 please scroll to the end?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. That's fine. I've read

11 it.

12 You see, this was signed by Minister Martic, this request, this

13 request representing the total requests coming from all municipalities.

14 You can see here: "Minister Milan Martic." All right, all right. And

15 there is also a signature by "TO commander." I suppose that they merged

16 the two. This document was found in the archives of the command of the

17 Knin TO Staff, and we used it as a basis for writing a renewed request to

18 the ministry of Serbia, a renewed and supplemented request. We received

19 no reply saying whether we would receive the approximate supplies

20 requested or not. What came in the form of a reply were those telephones

21 that I told you, and we either sent them back or gave them to Colonel

22 Jakovljevic to take them back because they were unusable, could not be

23 repaired. Even if we had repaired them, we could not use them for our

24 communication.

25 Q. Mr. Maksic, in order to clarify what kind of telephones these

Page 1244

1 are, you said these were induction telephones. What kind of system is

2 this?

3 A. This was something introduced 30 or 40 years prior to that in the

4 JNA units. It was produced by a factory in Nis. They were battery

5 operated, and their range was intended either for companies or platoons.

6 They were outdated. They were stored in depots for years and were

7 supposed to be decommissioned. I had many of them in my facility. We

8 didn't know what to do with them. We thought maybe we should send them

9 back to the factory to see if they could use them in what way. We were

10 not allowed to throw them away; we had to store them and keep them for

11 years. It should be clearly stated that this was an act of destruction on

12 the part of the Ministry of Defence of Serbia, vis-a-vis the Republic of

13 Krajina.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. Let me ask you something else. You drew a

15 chart of the Krajina TO, and on the top you put "Ministry of Defence of

16 Serbia," explaining that this vertical line showed how the Krajina TO was

17 dependent in every sense, technical, personnel, professional sense,

18 dependent on the Ministry of Defence. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In your replies you explained that upon your arrival in Knin you

21 found a situation in which everybody who was fit for military service had

22 been mobilised either into the JNA units or the police units --

23 A. -- or municipal TO units.

24 Q. All right. Let us make sure that we do not overlap for the sake

25 of interpreters.

Page 1245

1 Can you tell us whether the Krajina police in the operations of

2 the 9th Corps was resubordinated to that corps?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did the Krajina police perform some tasks that were assigned by

5 the 9th Corps command?

6 A. That depended on the Minister of the Interior and the 9th Corps

7 commander. It depended on how they coordinated and jointly performed

8 their tasks. If the 9th Corps commander needed elements of the forces of

9 the police, he was duty-bound to get in touch with the Minister of the

10 Interior and ask whether the minister would provide his forces or not. If

11 yes, then they had to coordinate the way this was to be implemented.

12 However, the -- the 9th Corps commander could not order the minister to

13 provide him with, say, 100 men for some operation; they had to coordinate

14 resubordination. It was a matter of their cooperation and coordinated

15 action. They met every Monday for that purpose.

16 Q. That sort of cooperation, was it in accordance with the SFRY

17 constitution and the law on the armed forces?

18 A. Yes, absolutely.

19 Q. Did the Ministry of the Interior of SAO Krajina, regardless of who

20 the minister was, whenever the 9th Corps had to carry out some operations

21 and sought coordination and cooperation, did it -- the ministry have the

22 obligation to get in touch and see to it that the assistance is provided?

23 A. Yes. It was duty-bound to see whether it can assist the army;

24 however, this was within the scope of their abilities. If the minister

25 was of the opinion that this exceeded their capacities, then they were not

Page 1246

1 able to assist. I believe that this is what the regulations say.

2 Q. Mr. Maksic, we heard of the deblocking action carried out by the

3 9th Corps in September, October, and later on in 1991. Do you know

4 whether the other JNA units whose area of responsibility covered parts of

5 Croatia had any duties in that operation?

6 A. In what operation?

7 Q. In the operation of deblocking the JNA facilities and pulling

8 people out.

9 A. Do you mean in the same area of responsibility as that of the 9th

10 Corps or in other parts of the Republic of Croatia like in Varazdin?

11 Q. Mr. Maksic, my question to you was the following: Regardless of

12 the unit involved, were operations of this sort carried out in other parts

13 of what is today the Republic of Croatia by the JNA?

14 A. I know that there was the Federal Secretary for National Defence

15 or other Chief of General Staff's directives to make sure that the JNA

16 equipment and troops are deblocked. To this end, I took part in an

17 operational action which was partly coordinated by the air force commanded

18 over by Bajic, but I don't know of any others and what they did. I cannot

19 tell you. I don't have any reliable information.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. There is information to the effect that

21 the JNA until the UN decided to deploy the blue helmets in Croatia in

22 January, February 1992, that in this period the JNA had concluded 14

23 truces. Do you agree with that? Is that consistent with the information

24 you have that?

25 A. In the territory of Yugoslavia, do you mean?

Page 1247

1 Q. Yes, in Yugoslavia.

2 A. I know of 12 truces. It is possible that there were 14, but I am

3 sure of these 12, although probably the information you gave is true.

4 Q. Can you tell us who issued the order for such truces? Was it done

5 by the JNA alone or --

6 A. No. It was done by the political leadership.

7 Q. Was the political leadership of Yugoslavia in fact the SFRY

8 Presidency? Was the Presidency the commander-in-chief of the armed

9 forces?

10 A. Yes. However, they were not able to reach an agreement.

11 Q. Mr. Maksic, are you familiar with the statement of the president

12 of the Republic of Croatia, Mr. Franjo Tudjman, that he gave in May 1992,

13 a year after the declaration of Croatia's independence when in the central

14 square of Banjelici [phoen] in Zagreb in front of TV cameras he

15 stated: "There would have been no war had Croatia not desired it. It was

16 the only way for us to achieve independence"?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

19 Defence has finished its cross-examination.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

21 Ms. Richterova, any re-examination?

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, a very short one. I only want to find exact


24 Re-examination by Ms. Richterova:

25 Q. Mr. Maksic, the Defence counsel asked you or put to you whether

Page 1248

1 you know anything about the fact that the goals of the JNA, police, TO,

2 and other forces would be to kill, to expel people from the territory, et

3 cetera. And your answer was: No, not a single written or oral order

4 which would contain anything like this, ordering any kind of crime. And

5 you also stated: "I saw the police force, how they behave, and I never

6 saw any members of the police force discriminating against people along

7 the ethnic lines, that they ever made the distinction that these people

8 would be -- that this person was a Serb and the other a Croat."

9 Here you are referring to police forces. Would it be the same to

10 say about JNA soldiers or members of the TO?

11 A. I don't understand the question.

12 Q. That --

13 A. I understand the first part but not the last.

14 Q. My question was whether what you said about the police forces, is

15 that they never made any distinction along the ethnic lines, whether the

16 same refers to the JNA or TO members.

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to show the witness document 65 ter

19 2060. This document is dated 4th of October, 1991, and it is from

20 Territorial Defence Staff Glina municipal. Can you scroll down a little

21 bit. Thank you. Like this.

22 Q. Can you please read this order?

23 A. "To all units of the TO Glina.

24 "When mopping up the terrain, spare Pajo Bubas and his wife, who

25 is a Serb, and their home. They have been verified as loyal people. The

Page 1249

1 house is in Toplicka street, Aleksa Santeka 3.

2 "Anyone who does not abide by this order will be severely

3 punished. This order shall come into force immediately.

4 "TO commander, Captain First Class, Stanko Divjakinja."

5 Q. Based on what you said before, what would be the purpose -- or why

6 would this document be necessary, this order be necessary?

7 A. This was an isolated case which was not typical of the relations

8 in Republika Srpska. This is just something that this particular person

9 states, but I don't know what the context is.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic, you answered my question?

11 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to tender this document into

12 evidence.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it not already?

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: No, this hasn't been tendered yet.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The document is admitted into evidence. May

16 it please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 133, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

19 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you. I don't have more questions.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Maksic, a few questions from the Chamber.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I will -- I must apologise at the beginning. I

25 know absolutely nothing about military issues and the army, so I'm going

Page 1250

1 to ask you very basic questions for my own understanding.

2 Apart from a soldier, what is the next smallest unit in an army?

3 A. The smallest unit is a squad, which numbers up to ten people, up

4 to ten men.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Above the squad --

6 A. Eight to ten men. A platoon. A platoon has four squads.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Above a platoon?

8 A. Above a platoon is a company, which has four platoons. We're

9 talking of infantry units here.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm still going to ask you what an infantry is.

11 Above a company?

12 A. A battalion.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: How many companies is a battalion made of, if it is

14 made of companies?

15 A. Yes. It's got four -- four.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Four? It's got four what? Four companies? And

17 then above a battalion?

18 A. A regiment.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Made up of?

20 A. Three battalions, an artillery battalion, headquarters, signals

21 platoon. Those are the main units of a regiment.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh. You said three battalions, artillery

23 battalion. What else? Headquarters.

24 A. A signals platoon.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, what is an artillery battalion, which forms

Page 1251

1 part of the regiment?

2 A. Artillery battalion, "divizjon" [phoen] as it is called, are

3 artillery units, cannons.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I get -- can I understand you clearly,

5 Mr. Maksic. When we started I was asking you about the people who compose

6 each one of these divisions in a -- in an army. You started off by

7 saying: A squad has ten men. A platoon has four squads, which means it

8 should be 40 men. A company has four platoons. Now -- and I understood

9 you to be talking of people. Now, when you talk of artillery battalion

10 and you mention cannons -- did you mention cannons?

11 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Yes, he did mention cannons.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm getting confused. I'm still talking about

13 people. You can tell me how all these divisions are armed, but at the

14 moment I just want to know the number of people that compose these various

15 divisions. Are we together?

16 A. About 150.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: 150 what?

18 A. Men.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Make what, an artillery battalion? Or what do they

20 make?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, headquarters, how many men?

23 A. Headquarters or staff command, about 35.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And single platoon -- single platoon -- is it

25 singles or signals?

Page 1252

1 A. Signals platoon, about 30.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What comes above a regiment?

3 A. Brigade.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And how -- of what is a brigade composed in terms

5 of manpower.

6 A. A brigade is of a mixed composition. Its numbers may differ, but

7 about 7.000 men.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And above a brigade?

9 A. A division.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Made up of?

11 A. Its composition is also mixed. It can have infantry regiments,

12 artillery regiments, engineers regiments.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: More or less how many men?

14 A. It may number roughly 7.000 to 9.000 men, depending on its

15 structure.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And above a division?

17 A. Corps.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And how big would a corps be?

19 A. 10 to 15.000 men, again it depends on the structure which is

20 mixed.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, we have been hearing about the 9th

22 Corps. As the army we see in this area, was the entire Army of the SAO

23 Krajina composed of only that one corps, the 9th Corps?

24 A. The JNA, yes. Those were the JNA forces, which consisted of the

25 9th Corps.

Page 1253

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: What had become of the other corps, the 1st to the

2 8th Corps and any beyond 9, if there were any?

3 A. The corps were not numbered from lowest to highest number, from 1

4 to 8. There were the 13th, 15th, 17th beside the 9th, and they covered as

5 their area of responsibility the entire Yugoslavia. One corps was -- or

6 rather, two -- or let's say one was in Bosnia, in Tuzla. One was in

7 Kragujevac. One was in Belgrade. One was in Nis. There was one corps in

8 Kumanova. There was a corps in Sarajevo, another one in Mostar, and so on

9 and so forth.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was the area of responsibility or the area of

11 operation of the 9th Corps?

12 A. The area of responsibility of the 9th Corps covered Northern

13 Dalmatia and Lika.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: In which province is -- are Northern Dalmatia and

15 Lika?

16 A. Your Honour, I don't understand the question. What do you

17 mean "province"? You mean in which republic?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: In which republic indeed, sorry.

19 A. In the Republic of Croatia.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Would I be right then to say the 9th Corps

21 was operating in the Republic of Croatia? Was it covering the entire

22 Republic of Croatia or was it only covering Lika and the other area and

23 Northern Dalmatia?

24 A. Only Lika and Northern Dalmatia.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Maksic. Now --

Page 1254

1 A. Thank you.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I'm not done with you.

3 A. I'm here at your disposal.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yesterday you told us of special-purpose police

5 which were operating in Knin. Am I right?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was their special purpose in Knin? What did

8 they do?

9 A. I did not talk of the special unit in Knin which had a special

10 purpose; rather, I talked of the special-purpose unit which was part of

11 the Ministry of the Interior. The Ministry of the Interior had one

12 special-purpose unit which was duty-bound to intervene in crisis areas, to

13 destroy infiltrated sabotage groups, to prevent minor rebellions, and

14 such-like. Regular police units were not equipped enough or mobile enough

15 for that sort of task. The 9th Corps had a similar type of unit, which

16 was the military police battalion.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the 9th Corps operated in Dalmatia and Lika,

18 Northern Dalmatia and Lika?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, I've got a longish quotation to quote for you

21 here, I hope you can remember it, from your evidence yesterday. You

22 said: "In 1991 the mobilisation system which was known until then ceased

23 to exist in the territory of Krajina. The 9th Corps was not a Serbian

24 corps within the 9th Corps. There were Croats serving there," and you

25 mentioned a number of points.

Page 1255

1 What I do want to ask you -- I don't want to repeat the whole

2 quotation -- you indicated that: "Once these units were disbanded in

3 order to reinforce the JNA units, some people wanted to join police units

4 and some wanted to join the JNA units."

5 You remember that?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You remember that. Could you clarify whether these

8 TO unit -- TO soldiers were given an operation to go into the MUPs,

9 police? In other words, what I'm trying to find out when you say: "Some

10 wanted to join the JNA units and others wanted to join the police units,"

11 did they have an option? Did they have a choice, or were they forced

12 to -- wherever they wanted to join?

13 A. The war army is composed of reservists. That's what our system

14 is. The 9th Corps had 20 to 30 per cent of such soldiers. This was a

15 mixed ethnic composition. 20 to 30 per cent of soldiers who were Croats

16 left the corps, and the corps had to be reinforced to compensate for those

17 who had left. The people who were used to reinforce the corps came from

18 the TO units. The next priority was the Ministry of the Interior;

19 however, they needed fewer people. Once the corps was filled up and the

20 Ministry of the Interior units, then whoever was left went to serve in the

21 TO units within municipal TO staffs.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: So this was by way of conscription? There was no

23 choice?

24 A. All defence offices within municipalities had records. Everybody

25 was listed in the records. Based on the records, they were sent -- and

Page 1256

1 based on the assignment within their records, they went to the units to

2 which they had been assigned. They were mobilised. They were unable to

3 choose.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You also testified that -- yesterday that in the TO

5 staff there were only four of you, and I think even this morning just a

6 few minutes ago when you were being cross-examined you said the same

7 thing. And you indicated that there were -- there were just no units in

8 your group. My question to you is: Where were all these soldiers that

9 were supposed to be forming part of the group or part of the army?

10 A. They were within the JNA units, the Ministry of the Interior, and

11 the TO units, but those which belonged to municipalities.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who was in control of those units that were in the

13 TO of the municipalities and -- who were not with you?

14 A. They were under the control of municipal presidents.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And to whom were the municipal presidents

16 answerable at -- at republic level?

17 A. To the president of the Republic of Krajina, Milan Babic.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And your group where you were only four, who were

19 you answerable to?

20 A. Babic, president of the republic. We were his professional agency

21 for the defence of Krajina. We were military professional agency or

22 organ. The idea was for us to set-up one or two brigades of manoeuvre

23 nature which would be able to act in the territory of Lika, Kordun in

24 coordination with the 9th Corps, Ministry of the Interior, and so on to

25 carry out certain operations as needed. However, since the men were

Page 1257

1 mobilised into the 9th Corps, the Ministry of the Interior or the local TO

2 units, there was nobody else left but men who were above 65 and they were

3 of no use. One could not set-up a unit with them. So we were our own

4 goal and purpose.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm getting a bit lost. From your testimony

6 yesterday I got the impression that you said, and please correct me if I'm

7 wrong, that you and three others were manning one office and you had no

8 units underneath you. And -- and you also indicated that there were lots

9 of units elsewhere, but you didn't give the impression yesterday that

10 these two units were answerable to the same person. You actually

11 indicated yesterday that Babic only had political power, and the one who

12 had soldiers under him had real power. Do you remember saying that? Do

13 you remember that, Mr. Maksic?

14 A. I did not understand you.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh. I said: Correct me if I'm wrong, did you say

16 yesterday that -- that Babic only had political power with four of you

17 under him, but that the entire soldiers, whatever they were TO or what,

18 were in another group which was not answerable to Babic?

19 A. But they were under the command of presidents of municipalities,

20 and they, in turn, were under the command of Babic, who was the president

21 of the Republic of Krajina. Therefore, via presidents of municipalities,

22 Babic was able to affect the manner in which the municipal TO units was

23 used. Was I clear or shall I explain again?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me try and quote to you what I think you said

25 yesterday. You said: "Those which did not join the 9th Corps became

Page 1258

1 Territorial Defence units, based on the capabilities of a municipality.

2 If municipality was a small one, it had a small unit; if it was a large

3 one, it had a large unit. Some TO units became units of the Ministry of

4 the Interior, and then whatever was left was used to establish Territorial

5 Defence units. And as I said, it depended on the resources in the

6 municipality."

7 Do you remember saying that yesterday?

8 A. Yes. That's what I repeated just now, too.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the --

10 A. The Ministry of the Interior and the TO units, it wasn't a case

11 where the TO units in their entirety went to the Ministry of the Interior,

12 no. That wasn't the case. The number that the Ministry of the Interior

13 needed was mobilised into the Ministry of the Interior, the number of men,

14 not entire units. It's just that certain men were mobilised into the

15 Ministry of the Interior.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I'm probably failing to put my questions

17 clearly to you. Let me get on to the next one. This morning you said

18 that the year you attended [indiscernible] where you were attending was

19 the 37th year. That was the time you were being asked about having been

20 in college in 1961 and then in 1985, 20 years later, something happened.

21 And you said: "The year I attended was the 37th." I want to find out

22 what it is that you attended. Can you remember that statement?

23 A. I wasn't even born in 1937.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: No. You were not saying you were born in 1937; you

25 were saying it was the 37th year. Now, I didn't know the 37th of what?

Page 1259

1 That's why I wanted to find out from ...

2 A. No, no. I said that I was head of the 34th and 37th year or

3 class, 34 and 37 of the military academy of land forces. That's what I

4 said.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That's what I wanted to

6 understand. Again today you talked about Kikas affair. I don't -- I'm

7 pronouncing it how it is spelled. I might be mispronouncing it in the

8 B/C/S. That's when you talked about a plane from Uganda.

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you tell me more about that. I didn't

11 understand what you were saying about this Kikas -- what is the Kikas

12 affair?

13 A. I'm not sure whether it was from Uganda or not, but as far as I

14 can remember -- once again, it could have been from another country, but

15 this is what happened. I saw TV footage and I read in the papers, it was

16 also discussed -- or rather, I discussed it with the man who was there.

17 It involved a cargo plane which was full of weapons and military equipment

18 and landed at the airport in Zagreb without any customs declarations,

19 permits, or whatever such documents are called. Then, commander of the

20 4th or 5th Air Force Corps forced the plane to land, seized the plane, and

21 confiscated the weapons which had been imported illegally by Croatia.

22 They were smuggling weapons.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You also talked this afternoon about men

24 killed on the Korana bridge. You were ...

25 A. Yes. I read about that.

Page 1260

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's something you read about. Okay. Do you

2 know who they were killed by?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know who they were killed by?

5 A. I don't know. What was written about was that people who secured

6 the bridge stopped them to check the contents of what they were

7 transporting. They had some food items, flour, and so on, whatever the

8 supply platoon transported. They took them out and killed them, at least

9 that's the extent of what I read. Whether it's true or not, I don't know.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You testified that from the 1st of October, 1991,

11 to the end of December 1991 you were in Knin and Krajina.

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Prior to the 1st of October, 1991, where were you?

14 A. I was head of training and operations centre of the Belgrade

15 Corps, defence of the town, and occasionally I substituted for the Chief

16 of Staff for the defence of Belgrade. Prior to that I was commander of

17 151st Regiment for four years and commander of 505th Brigade.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: After December 1991, where were you?

19 A. I went back to my post which I held prior to that, head of

20 training and operations department of the defence of Belgrade. Then I was

21 offered another post, a higher one. I rejected the offer, and I retired

22 in 1994.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said yesterday also that Milan Babic had no

24 right to appoint you because you had a prior appointment. Is that the

25 appointment in Belgrade you were talking about?

Page 1261

1 A. Yes. The sole authority for appointment rested with the federal

2 secretary for defence, and he transferred these competences to the chief

3 of General Staff. It pertained both to my post and my promotion,

4 therefore there was nobody else who were authorised to effect my service

5 in any way. In addition to that, Babic had no legal basis for doing that.

6 Thirdly, he would have done me a disservice because I would have lost the

7 post that I had held for many years prior to that. I did not come to

8 Krajina to become commander of the Krajina TO; I came there to assist, to

9 see if something could be done. I didn't manage to accomplish almost

10 anything, and this is why I regret going there in the first place.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Today under cross-examination you indicated that

12 you tried to look for some areas on the map which had been mentioned to

13 you and you couldn't find them.

14 A. These are locations that were mentioned in the order shown to me.

15 They pertain to some tactical groups. They may have existed, I don't

16 know. It is possible that somebody produced these documents without

17 having any basic knowledge of how military correspondence is to be

18 drafted; therefore, I don't know anything about the origin of these

19 documents, why they were drafted, and whether things were the way they

20 were depicted in these documents. It is possible that they were, but I'm

21 not familiar with that.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Maksic.

23 Sorry.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising from the questions from the

Page 1262

1 Bench?

2 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, Your Honour. I have two short questions

3 just to clarify.

4 Further re-examination by Ms. Richterova:


6 Q. You answered to the Judge's questions that TO units were

7 answerable to the president of the municipality and that president of the

8 municipality was answerable further to Mr. Babic?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. How was it when the TO units participated in military operations

11 led by JNA? Who commanded these municipal TO units and to whom they were

12 answerable?

13 A. The absolute priority when it come it is to engaging units is

14 given to a JNA unit or the largest unit participating in an operation.

15 I've already explained you that. If the SUP unit is the largest one

16 participating in the operation, it can have within its composition both

17 the JNA and the TO units, but only if the SUP unit is the largest. In

18 this case, the JNA via the president of the republic and president of the

19 municipality resubordinates the TO unit. Once the operation is concluded,

20 the TO unit goes back to its original location.

21 Q. I think you will have to clarify to the Judges what this "SUP"

22 means.

23 A. Secretariat of the Interior or the ministry.

24 Q. Is it the same as Ministry of the Interior, as MUP?

25 A. Not quite the same.

Page 1263

1 Q. So what is the difference?

2 A. Ministry of the Interior has within its composition Secretariat of

3 the Interior or SUP.

4 Q. And when --

5 A. It is called differently in different places.

6 Q. And one last question. You mentioned many times today that you

7 read certain information in press, in newspapers. What kind of newspapers

8 did you read them? Was it Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian? What kind of place

9 did you read it?

10 A. I mostly read Croatian -- I mean, Serbian press. I didn't read

11 Bosnian press, and I also read Croatian press which I received via Sombor.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

14 Mr. Milovancevic.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

17 Mr. Milovancevic, there is -- there is a Prosecution motion -- I

18 think it's Rule 89(F) or article 89(F) -- Rule 89(F), and I think the

19 Defence has indicated that a response would be filed today. I just want

20 to find out what the position is.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have prepared

22 written reply, and we will give it to the Prosecution today. Otherwise,

23 we do not object this motion of the Prosecution.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 On the 25th of January again the Prosecution filed a 92 bis

Page 1264

1 motion. It looks like the Defence is supposed to file a response by no

2 later than tomorrow. Do you have anything about it?

3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] We will comply within the

4 deadline, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 There is a question of dates here. I beg your pardon.

7 Mr. Maksic, thank you so much. I should have asked you to -- I

8 should have excused you some time back. You are excused. You don't need

9 to come back to court any longer. You may stand down.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Goodbye.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Bye-bye.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm told -- I've got a note here that we have been

14 given the 27th of February as a date we could sit, seeing that the Oric

15 case is not sitting on that day. I'm seeing that for the first time,

16 except that I already had -- had the 27th of February as a provisional

17 date on my diary.

18 MR. WHITING: As did we, Your Honour. I thought that we had

19 provisionally the 27th and the 28th.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed.

21 MR. WHITING: And that March 1st we were not sitting, and then

22 thereafter in March we were sitting every day is what I had understood.

23 But certainly, with respect, the 27th and the 28th, I had understood we

24 were tentatively set for those days.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, tentatively we were given those dates. Can I

Page 1265

1 confirm with everybody that they would be available on that day.

2 Would the Prosecution be available on that day?

3 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the 28th?

5 MR. WHITING: And the 28th.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are also being asked to swap the afternoon

9 sessions on both Tuesday, the 7th and 23rd. When I read the e-mail, I

10 thought they said 7th and 23rd of February, now I see this note says 7th

11 and 23rd of March. I remember making a mental note that today is in fact

12 the 7th already anyway when I read the e-mail in the office. Is it March

13 or February?

14 MR. WHITING: We didn't receive the e-mail, so I -- I can't say,

15 but I would assume -- it sounds like it's March.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, if it is March, what I don't understand is

17 that we don't have a calendar for March yet.

18 MR. WHITING: No, that's right. But I've been -- I've been told

19 that we're sitting every day in March. And I think there is some calendar

20 out there that exists --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, if --

22 MR. WHITING: -- that confirms that.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're sitting every day in March. All they want is

24 to swap?

25 MR. WHITING: That's what it sounds like, and of course we would

Page 1266

1 have no objection to that, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not quite clear from this note, but from my

3 recollection from the reading of the e-mail, it looks like on those days

4 we are scheduled to sit in the afternoon and the request is that we go --

5 we sit in the morning so that Krajisnik can sit in the afternoon.

6 MR. WHITING: That's certainly fine for us, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have the

9 schedule in front of me now; however, we will comply with any instructions

10 received by the Trial Chamber -- from the Trial Chamber.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we not able to see the schedule on the monitor,

12 on the LiveNote?

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry about all this. Apparently we are not

15 getting the 28th in February. Okay. So it's only the 27th. And, yes, it

16 is the 7th and 23rd of March I'm told, so if everybody is agreeable we

17 will sit in the morning on the 7th and 23rd of March. Okay? Okay.

18 Thank you so much.

19 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

20 MR. WHITING: I just need to address the Court about the remainder

21 of the week in terms of the schedule.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We were just thinking about

23 that. Can you address us, please.

24 MR. WHITING: Yes. Your Honour, as my recollection, and I can be

25 corrected if I'm wrong, but originally this week I think we were going to

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1 sit only Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, and Wednesday was a late

2 addition to the schedule. When it was added we decided, based on the

3 earlier witnesses this witness actually would take a little longer and we

4 would go into Wednesday, so rather than call another witness, we just

5 preserved Wednesday to finish this witness. Obviously we have finished

6 this witness now. What that means is we do not have a witness for

7 tomorrow. Our next witness is available on Thursday.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Which means we just can't sit tomorrow then.

9 Then the matter then will have to stand postponed or adjourned until

10 Thursday, the 9th, at 9.00 in the morning in this courtroom. Okay. The

11 matter is adjourned.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.54 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of

14 February, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.