Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2029

1 Thursday, 9 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I wonder if you want to caution the

8 witness, remind the witness of --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You wonder if I want?

10 MR. WHITING: To remind the witness of the oath.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. Yes. I'm sorry, I'm going to

12 have to call you Mr. Number 3, if you don't mind, simply because of the

13 protective measures. The Chamber reminds you that you took the

14 declaration yesterday in I with you promised to tell the truth, the whole

15 truth, and nothing else but the truth. You are still bound by that

16 declaration to tell the truth even today.


18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

20 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

22 WITNESS: WITNESS MM-003 [Resumed]

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Examination by Mr. Whiting: [Continued]

25 Q. Good morning, Witness. Are you able to understand me clearly in a

Page 2030

1 language you understand?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You will recall that at the end of the session yesterday we were

4 talking about Kijevo. You told us about something that happened in Kijevo

5 in the spring of 1991. Do you recall something happening in Kijevo in

6 around August of 1991?

7 A. In August? Well, that's when Kijevo was practically attacked and

8 when it was cleansed of its Croatian population. Actually, the two

9 territories linked up of the Serb village of Polace and the Serb village

10 of Civljani.

11 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session

12 briefly, please?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

14 [Private session]

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Page 2031

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5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


9 Q. Witness, when you were in Kijevo after the attack on Kijevo, what

10 did you see?

11 A. When entering Kijevo and further along the road, the houses were

12 still in smoke on the left-hand side, and on the right-hand side we got to

13 the police station in Kijevo. We stopped there briefly, and he talked to

14 Milenko Zelenbada who happened to be there. He asked to have the Croat

15 flag removed, the chequerboard flag. He asked me to do that. Then he

16 went further ahead, well, perhaps a kilometre or so as far as I remember.

17 On the right-hand side there was a house next to which there were a lot of

18 policemen, and there were about ten men there standing by the wall. When

19 we got there we already knew there were some prisoner taken there. We

20 heard that through communications, about ten members of the MUP of

21 Croatia.

22 Soon after that, an APC came there. Ratko Mladic was on the APC.

23 They talked about what they would do with those people. Mladic said that

24 as a sign of his goodwill he would take them then to between the Serb

25 villages of Civljani and Vrlika and he would let them cross over to the

Page 2032

1 Croat side.

2 Q. Witness, in your answer you said that in Kijevo you said he asked

3 to have the Croat flag removed. Who were you talking about? Who was it

4 who asked that? Just to be clear.

5 A. Martic asked to have the Croat flag removed, sort of like a

6 trophy, so that he'd have it.

7 Q. On at that day did you hear Milan Martic make any statements about

8 the operation or to the people in -- to the Serb people in Kijevo or

9 around Kijevo?

10 A. I don't remember exactly. I don't remember his exact words. When

11 we were there with those people, he congratulated them on the work they

12 did voluntarily. Already then -- I don't know how to explain this

13 actually. It was sort of a relief for the Serb people on the other side.

14 There was a big advantage that there were no more Croats between two Serb

15 villages.

16 Q. Did Mr. Martic say anything about Vrlika?

17 A. At the time when Mladic came and when they were talking among

18 themselves, they mentioned Vrlika because Martic -- or, rather, they were

19 talking and they were saying that Vrlika should be dealt with on that day

20 too. This is a very small town, perhaps a population of 2.000, 3.000.

21 Q. When you say that they said it should be dealt with, how did you

22 understand that? What did you understand that to mean? What did that

23 mean, "dealt with"?

24 A. What I meant was --

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

Page 2033


2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I think it would be logical to

3 put a question to the witness along the following lines: What did Martic

4 say after that? What did he mean? Was the conversation between Mladic

5 and Martic clear? Did they mention what it was that they actually wanted?

6 Now, the witness is supposed to tell us what Martic was thinking.

7 On the basis of what can he say that?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: Could Mr. Milovancevic

9 please adjust his microphone. We can barely hear him. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You heard what the interpreter said about your

11 microphone?

12 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, with respect, I think my question is

13 entirely permissible. If Mr. Milovancevic wants to ask those questions on

14 cross-examination, he's perfectly entitled, but I don't think there's

15 anything improper about what I put to the witness.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection is overruled.

17 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Witness, the objection has been overruled and therefore my

19 question stands, and the question I put to you, just to remind you, is you

20 said that they -- they were talking and they were saying that Vrlika

21 should be dealt with on that day. My question to you was: What did you

22 understand that to mean, "dealt with"?

23 A. Well, I understood this word to deal with in terms of having

24 another attack. It was called cleansing at the time, liberating the road

25 between Civljani and Vrlika, and through the Serb village of Otisci.

Page 2034

1 Already then while in this conversation, Mladic said something that as a

2 sign of goodwill he would release these ten prisoners in Vrlika. I think

3 that in that way he wanted to deal with the situation peacefully, that

4 they be disarmed, whatever.

5 Q. Was the word "cleansing" used at the time? Was that used openly?

6 A. The word cleansing was used at the time, but it was used as a

7 military term, cleansing, a territory that becomes clean.

8 Q. You've also talked about this term -- you've also talked about

9 this term as meaning getting rid of the Croats, getting the Croat

10 population out of there. What was it used in that way at the time?

11 A. That term was used on both sides, cleansing the Croat population

12 or, rather, cleansing the terrain from Croat police, MUP, the ZNG.

13 Q. Well, I want to get clear on this. Was the term used -- was the

14 term "cleansing" used to mean cleansing the Croat population and all Croat

15 military forces or just one of them, or how precisely was it used? How

16 did you understand it?

17 A. My understanding of cleansing was that it was 100 per cent

18 territory without people. Directly in that case, completely in that case.

19 In case of a conflict between Serbs and Croats, that would mean cleansing

20 Croat villages, that is to say the population and the military and police

21 forces.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I still don't understand. You said that

24 your understanding of cleansing was that it was 100 per cent territory

25 without people. Does it therefore mean that once the place is cleansed it

Page 2035

1 will be uninhabited? There will be nobody on the land?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can say that directly for

3 Kijevo. Hardly anybody stayed behind. Only some very old people who

4 couldn't move, perhaps only about ten of them. It was a very big village

5 before that, 200, 300 people. So there was complete cleansing of the

6 population from the territory that was attacked.

7 I'm sorry. Except for the old and weak who could not move, the

8 entire population had left. That was the objective.


10 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Now, Witness, yesterday you told us that from what you could

12 observe the police and the JNA during this time was working together in

13 close cooperation. Were you able to observe whether there was any

14 subordination? Was the police subordinated to the JNA? Was the JNA

15 subordinated to the police? Were you able to make any observations about

16 that?

17 A. Well, I can say that in the attack itself against the village of

18 Kijevo there was subordination, because the then Yugoslav air force was

19 bombing the village of Kijevo parallel to the artillery that was guided

20 from the sides. Later on, I heard that this was from the conversation

21 between Colonel Djukic and somebody else that this was 155-millimetre and

22 130-millimetre artillery from the region of Crna Zemlja. I think that

23 this was a perfect example, ideal, ideal coordination on a joint

24 assignment.

25 Q. And maybe this was something you were not able to observe, and if

Page 2036

1 so just tell us, but were you able to tell whether military and the police

2 were working in coordination or was there an actual formal subordination?

3 A. I don't know about formal subordination. I just know that Martic

4 ordered the police at the beginning of the operations. He asked the

5 police to join the JNA in certain directions and to help them along.

6 In the army at that time, there were still young conscripts about

7 20 years old -- 20-year-old, and he ordered the police to join the

8 Yugoslav People's Army command.

9 Q. Witness, yesterday you told us that in September of 1991, you

10 learned that Martic had been arrested in Bosnia. Did you learn anything

11 about what he was doing there?

12 A. Yes. I don't know his exact rank. I'm saying that again. It's

13 the same military man. Now, was he a lieutenant colonel or a colonel,

14 because he was promoted several times over a short span of time. It was

15 Borisav Djukic. They went to a village near Bosanska Krupa where Djukic

16 was from originally. Lieutenant Colonel Djukic, Colonel Djukic, I'm not

17 sure of his rank at the time.

18 Q. And, Witness, did you learn anything about what they were doing

19 there at the time?

20 A. Through conversations later on, I heard -- or, actually, I was

21 told that they travelled up there because Djukic asked that a certain

22 quantity of weapons be dispatched to his village so that they be armed.

23 As far as I understood, they were threatened from the Muslim village of

24 Otoka.

25 I also know that the Yugoslav People's Army mediated, and they

Page 2037

1 were released from prison due to these mediation efforts.

2 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session

3 briefly, please.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

5 [Private session]

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Page 2040

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


21 Q. Witness, in 1992 did you hear of something that was referred to as

22 the corridor operation?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What did you understand that to be?

25 A. The corridor action was supposed to link up through the

Page 2041

1 republic -- or, rather, the territories of Republika Srpska with the

2 Republic of Serbia proper, and that was supposed to be an open road and

3 territorial link with Serbia, and it was called "the backbone," because

4 without that road, without that territory, you couldn't get supplies in.

5 There would be no supplies, no food, no clothing, footwear, fuel.

6 Q. Witness --

7 A. Life was under threat in a way without that.

8 Q. Witness, what was Milan Martic's role in the corridor operation,

9 if you know?

10 A. He went to the corridor with his elite Krajina unit, the best

11 people he could rally, the strongest Krajina unit of the special police.

12 I think the name was called special unit of the police or part of it was

13 called a special unit. And that was the -- those were the special police

14 units. They were JNA units which had been put into a different uniform,

15 and I think that they were then called special police units.

16 Q. Witness, during or after the corridor operation, did you observe

17 anything coming from the corridor to the Krajina, to Knin?

18 A. In at least one case while I was in Golubic, or when I was in

19 Golubic, rather, a helicopter landed, MI8. It was the popular 8

20 helicopter, as it was called, and out of it stepped Milan Lukic, who was

21 a -- in Martic's security at the time, and Tode Sljivar also got off the

22 helicopter with him. Unusually -- quite unusually the helicopter landed

23 in the middle of the football stadium, and when the helicopter doors

24 opened there was a lot of washing machines inside, televisions, some

25 expensive furniture. There was a small motorcycle of the Tomos make.

Page 2042

1 Lots of different things, technical goods, that kind of thing.

2 Q. Did you learn where those goods, those things, came from?

3 A. Yes. Lukic said that they had loaded up those goods from a

4 village Kotorsko towards Johovac, and that it was actually Croatian

5 territory north -- I think it was north of Doboj. They took the furniture

6 out of the house of a doctor who was very wealthy, and they said that they

7 had found a lot of whisky there and that they had drunk a lot of whisky,

8 and they couldn't believe how rich this man was.

9 Q. Now, Witness, yesterday you talked about problems during 1991 when

10 the JNA was complaining that the police were engaging in theft, and you

11 told us that Milan Martic was trying to deal with these complaints, and

12 what wasn't clear to me is was Milan Martic concerned about the thefts

13 occurring, or was he concerned about that there were problems with the

14 JNA, or was he concerned about something else?

15 A. I think that the problems at that time -- well, as he knew the JNA

16 commanders well, I think that the main thing was not to upset those

17 relations, because there was tension between the commanders of the army

18 and the police. Not everything ran smoothly or simply.

19 Q. I want to move to another topic now and to the election campaign

20 in 1993, 1994, Milan Martic's presidential campaign. Did you know how

21 that campaign was financed? Where did the money come from for that

22 election?

23 A. On one occasion before the campaign itself, he was, that is to say

24 Martic, was in Bosanski Novi for talks with Borislav Mikelic, and on that

25 day he met with Jovica Stanisic in Belgrade. And when he returned, he

Page 2043

1 said that he had received some money, shillings, actually, as assistance

2 to the action -- not action, I mean the pre-election campaign, because

3 very often people who were around him would ask him something interesting,

4 how things stood financially. You see, the people were at breaking point.

5 No more food, no more anything.

6 Q. Did you ever hear how much money -- any figures about how much

7 money he received from Stanisic?

8 A. Well, I can explain this to you in the following way: After his

9 victory at the elections, that day, roughly, and that night he distributed

10 a lot of money amongst his associates, 1.000 shillings. He received

11 450.000 marks in Austrian shillings for the elections, as far as I know,

12 and there were 20 or 30 people around him and he would give everyone a

13 bonus of 1.000 shillings. And 1.000 Austrian shillings was 1.400 German

14 marks at that time.

15 Q. Witness, in 1995, did you hear of something calmed Operation

16 Flash?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session briefly?

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

20 [Private session]

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Page 2044

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

20 Mr. Whiting.

21 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Now, Witness, you've told us that Milan Martic said that he told

23 Celeketic to hit Zagreb, Sisak and that area on the day -- that morning

24 after Operation Flash. Now, could you -- on the following day, do you --

25 did you hear him say anything about Zagreb?

Page 2045

1 A. The next day, he was very angry, and he asked at that Zagreb be

2 hit, Ilica, Ban. He said Ban and the horse. That's actually the square,

3 Ban Jelacic square in Zagreb. And also, he asked for Sisak and Karlovac.

4 And that's why he asked that they be called and that Orhan [sic] be hit --

5 used, that is to say that Orkan be used. Because Karlovac could not be

6 hit by regular artillery.

7 Q. So did you hear him say that Orkan should be used?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That what is to be used?

9 MR. WHITING: Orkan. It's a weapon.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just seeing it on the script here.

11 MR. WHITING: That's right.

12 Q. Witness, did you hear him say that Orkans, Orkan rockets, should

13 be used?

14 A. Yes, he did mention Orkan because nothing else could be used

15 except for another weapon. I think that it was called the war system

16 Luna. Nothing else could reach that. He didn't hide it. He said it

17 quite openly, publicly, in front of television and so on.

18 Q. Witness, you said that he said Zagreb should be hit, Ilica. What

19 is Ilica a reference to your knowledge?

20 A. As far as I know, Ilica is a street in Zagreb where -- it's a

21 shopping area where most of the shops are, and people stroll down it.

22 That's how I understand it. Lots of people anyway.

23 Q. And was he saying that the Ilica and the Ban square should be

24 target?

25 A. Yes, because he was angry. He said they don't mind which targets

Page 2046

1 they hit because there are many people who were killed and wounded, and

2 there was general unrest at the time.

3 Q. Witness, in August of 1995 did you leave the Krajina?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was that because of Operation Storm?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session,

8 please.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, I'm sorry, can I ask a question

10 about something that happened a little earlier?

11 MR. WHITING: Of course.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the horse?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Counter-intelligence. KOS?

14 MR. WHITING: I think there's a misunderstanding.


16 MR. WHITING: He understood you -- it was interpreted as KOS and

17 you were asking about horse.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's on the transcript is said is, if you look at

19 page 16 line 25.

20 MR. WHITING: Right. I would just suggest if you repeat the

21 question and maybe it will be interpreted correctly.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me do that. Now, what I have here says that

23 you said the next day he was very angry, and he asked that Zagreb be hit,

24 Ilica, Ban. He said Ban and the horse. That's actually the square, Ban

25 Jelacic square in Zagreb. I want to know what the horse and what Ban is.

Page 2047

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can explain that. It's a

2 symbol of the Croatian people. Ban was a historical personage in Croatia,

3 and he was on a horse, h-o-r-s-e. He's riding a horse. It's statue, a

4 monument in the middle of the square in Zagreb. So when it's this

5 Croatian army leader on a horse or ruler or whatever he was.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: And his name is Ban?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His title, a noble title, is Ban,

8 and it is attached to the name to denote nobility. Ban, as I understand

9 it, is somebody who had great respect, great wealth. He was a military

10 leader. I don't know what he actually was, what kind of Croatian

11 personage, but Ban is a title.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. May the Chamber please move into

13 private session.

14 [Private session]

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Page 2063

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24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

Page 2064

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


3 Q. Witness, I'll remind you we're now in public session. Thank you

4 for answering my questions?

5 MR. WHITING: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

7 Mr. Milovancevic.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:

9 Q. Witness, I'm Predrag Milovancevic, counsel for Mr. Milovancevic

10 Martic. According to the Rules this is the phase of cross-examination so

11 it is the turn of the defence to put questions to you. Since we

12 understand each other, could you please pause between my question and your

13 answer so the interpreters could do their job properly. Have you

14 understood that?

15 A. Yes.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note. Could Mr. Milovancevic

17 please adjust his microphone? We can barely hear him.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. -- that you were accompanying Mr. Raskovic for the first time in

20 1989 on a religious holiday. Did you hear my question, Witness?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You said that it was a great honour to accompany Mr. Raskovic.

23 Why was that an honour for you?

24 A. Because he was popular among the Serb population. He was a

25 renowned professor of medicine. Secondly, he was the professor of my

Page 2065

1 relative, Dr. Dusan Opacic, a neurologist.

2 Q. You said at that he enjoyed a high reputation among the Serb

3 population in Croatia. Did that have anything to do with certain

4 political developments? Croatia at the time?

5 A. Yes. Let me clarify this straight away. I'm not sure whether it

6 was the case at that moment that the Serb democratic community was being

7 formed right then. This was a Serb political party. He was a very

8 popular person.

9 Q. You said that the next time you were with him after 1989 was

10 during the rally in Srb. Do you know what it was that was taking place in

11 Srb? Can you explain what kind of event this was? Can you tell us very

12 briefly?

13 A. I think it was called the All Serb Assembly. Already then the

14 Serb Democratic Party had been established. At least that was my

15 understanding.

16 Q. Do you remember these political developments from 1990? You just

17 mentioned the All Serb Assembly in Srb. That was the end of July 1990.

18 Were any elections held in 1990 in Croatia? Do you recall that?

19 A. My answer is no, I do not remember directly, if you mean the

20 elections, but I think there were many problems at the time in the

21 municipality of Benkovac.

22 Q. Witness, that year, 1990, was it a year in which the HDZ, the

23 Croatian Democratic Union, came to power in Croatia after the multi-party

24 elections were held?

25 A. I cannot say with any certainty. I think that that was the year

Page 2066

1 of the multi-party system, when it was being introduced. That is to say

2 that in Benkovac approximately at that time Tudjman was there within the

3 campaign of the HDZ. He was president of the HDZ party at that time, but

4 I cannot say for sure whether he was president of Croatia at the time.

5 Q. You said that Mr. Tudjman, as president of the party, the

6 president of his party, the HDZ, was in Benkovac, and you spoke about some

7 problem. What was it that happened? What is it that you recall?

8 A. Financial assistance and other forms of assistance were being

9 gathered. I think the man's name was Zeljko Mlinar. As far as I could

10 hear and in terms of what the newspapers wrote and what was on television,

11 as far as I understood things, he had a scar on the left-hand side, and

12 somebody tried to slit his throat. That's what I understood. That is

13 what people were talking about. That is what was on TV. He had become a

14 victim, big time.

15 Q. Were you present at the time when the Assembly in Srb was held?

16 That was the 25th of July, 1990. That is the day that is registered as

17 the day of that Assembly.

18 A. Yes, because -- well ...

19 Q. So far, you've been asked several times to bear the protective

20 measures in mind, those that are in place. Please be careful when

21 answering my questions, too, things that have to do with you, personally.

22 I'm just reminding you of that.

23 You said that then in Srb at the Assembly you saw many people who

24 you did not know but who you recognised as well-known public political

25 figures; is that right?

Page 2067

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you listen to what was being said at this Assembly in Srb?

3 Were any speeches made? And what was the subject of these speeches? Do

4 you remember?

5 A. To be honest, a lot of us -- a lot of people went to Srb. I don't

6 know how many. Thousands of people were there from all kinds of

7 territories. It's not that I really paid much attention to the context of

8 what was being said.

9 Was I there? Yes, I was. As for the talks that I heard, for the

10 most part these were political speeches. I think that at that time there

11 were a lot of talks about the establishment of Serb municipalities, some

12 kind of election activities. More or less about political activities of

13 the Serbs and different attempts.

14 Q. That speech about the activities of the Serbs, was that linked to

15 any activities on the part of the Croatian authorities at that time? Was

16 that sort of linked, interconnected in any way?

17 A. Yes, it was. In fact, I would say that it was one of the

18 responses to what had previously happened in Benkovac.

19 Q. You say that you saw Milan Martic for the first time around the

20 17th of August, 1990, and you're linking that to the date when the

21 barricades were erected. Is that what you said in your testimony?

22 A. Yes, that's the truth of it.

23 Q. You said that on that day you were returning back from your job,

24 and in your statement given to the Prosecution, did you make that

25 statement, that when you returned home that it had been announced over the

Page 2068

1 radio that there was war and that there was a mobilisation on. Is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I may, counsel is obviously asking a

5 number of questions based on the witness's statement. Normally when that

6 happens the witness is provided a copy of his statement so that he can

7 refer to it.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we can provide the

10 witness with a copy of the statement. However, certain things were

11 highlighted which were redacted. So if the Prosecutor has a clear copy

12 without any markings, then perhaps we could use that, because we

13 underlined the points we wish to clarify and highlight.

14 MR. WHITING: We have a clean copy.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'd be much obliged

16 to my learned friend of the Prosecution.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You raised another issue, Mr. Milovancevic, that

18 the statement that you are having had some things redacted from it, and

19 what I want to know is, is this one an original version which is not

20 redacted?

21 MR. WHITING: It's not redacted.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: And is it anticipated that when Mr. Milovancevic

23 cross-examines on the redacted parts of the statement we will go into

24 private session?

25 MR. WHITING: Well, I think it's -- in the event that he

Page 2069

1 cross-examines on anything that might identify the witness we should go

2 into private session. I guess I put my answer that and that is, yes,

3 parts that were previously redacted in the statement. But anything that

4 might identify the witness we should go into private session, yes. Thank

5 you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm at a bit of a loss. I would imagine that a

7 redacted part is redacted because it is not meant for the public whether

8 or not that part identifies the witness. If the witness is going to be

9 cross-examined on that part in open session, I'm not sure what was the

10 point of the redaction.

11 MR. WHITING: No, I'm sorry. I wasn't clear. I'm agreeing with

12 Your Honour that if -- on the redacted parts of the statement we should go

13 into private session, yes.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting. Not only

15 identifying parts. Okay.

16 Mr. Milovancevic, we -- the Chamber will rely on you because you

17 have the statement and you will know what parts are redacted and what

18 parts identify him. We will rely on you to ask for private session as and

19 when the need arises. Is that okay? Thank you very much. You may

20 proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll

22 do my best to bear in mind not to disclose the identity of the witness

23 through anything I say. I'll do my best so that a problem does not arise.

24 Q. Witness, we reached the 17th of August, or a date around those

25 days with the event called the log revolution, and it is to be found on

Page 2070

1 page 3 of your statement, paragraph 9. Let me repeat the question. So on

2 that day you received information according to which war had been

3 proclaimed over the radio and that there was a mobilisation under way. Is

4 that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Well, is it true then that you set out to report to your wartime

7 base?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You explained to us just like everybody else, all adult males in

10 Yugoslavia at that time, that you had a wartime distribution as a recruit.

11 Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When there's a war or an emergency situation, when people are

14 called to a mobilisation, is it their duty to go and report to a post set

15 for mobilisation?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So you did that just like hundreds of other people that you

18 mention in your statement. You say you saw large numbers of people going

19 to rally at the post determined for reporting to the mobilisation call-up.

20 A. I don't understand the question. When you say "you saw large

21 numbers of people going to a mobilisation post," no. When I said that --

22 I said that when I arrived at the location, or, rather, near the Golubic

23 primary school where the road forks out and branches out into two parts,

24 Golubic to the left, the primary school on the right, and there's a fork

25 in the road there. I apologise if I've got something wrong.

Page 2071

1 Q. Thank you, Witness. Everything is fine. Everything is in order.

2 We just need to make ourselves understood.

3 In your statement, the written statement you gave to the

4 Prosecution, did you say that when you arrived in Golubic that you saw a

5 makeshift house put up there and that you saw a man whom you later

6 established was Milan Martic handing out weapons with a number of other

7 people?

8 A. Yes, that's true. And if I might be allowed to explain. When you

9 enter the settlement, since that was a settlement for a work drive on --

10 when you come into the right there were these huts on the left-hand side.

11 This hut was called the Staff Command or staff -- or the headquarters, and

12 that time -- that name dated back to the youth work drives that were once

13 held.

14 Q. Since you said that it was the place where the command and

15 settlement of the youth work drives existed, was that a separate area?

16 Had it been a separate area for a long time, in fact?

17 A. It had been in existence, I think, for the past -- well, when the

18 hydroelectric power plant was being built the settlement was also built.

19 So that was in the 1970s, 1979, perhaps. And once the hydroelectric power

20 plant was completed, it became a youth centre. And there were

21 prefabricated houses, but they weren't set apart with any wire fencing.

22 Q. You said that you went inside and that you saw a prefabricated

23 three-room house where you saw Martic, and that with him were Milenko

24 Zelenbaba, police inspector from Knin, Jovo Mitrovic, whom you later

25 learnt was the commander of the reserve police force in Knin; is that

Page 2072

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you say that Mirko Zjenic -- Cenic was also in the house and

4 that he recorded the names of the reserve officers who were issued weapons

5 and to which the location they were sent, the unit they were sent to?

6 A. As far as I understand the question, I didn't say that Mirko Cenic

7 was in the house recording this. He came outside later on and helped the

8 lists to be compiled of the people to which Martic had handed out weapons.

9 Q. In paragraph 12 you said that among those who reported to the

10 mobilisation call-up there were JNA reservists and police reservists as

11 well and that those who were on the list received weapons and that once

12 they had received these weapons they would sign for it, sign for the

13 weapons they had been issued. Is that right, Witness?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us whether weapons were handed out to the reserve

16 policemen, only reserve policemen, or to others as well?

17 A. Let me make this clear. The list that I mentioned was the list of

18 the reserve force that existed. And the second point is that they were

19 issued weapons depending on where they lived, where they had come from.

20 So they would go back to their place of residence, to and from the

21 barracks, and so care was taken that equal weapon distribution existed for

22 each of the locations.

23 Q. Can we therefore state that after the proclamation of a state of

24 war was announced over the radio and mobilisation call-up announced Milan

25 Martic, with his people, distributed weapons to the reserve police force

Page 2073

1 from the list of the reserve policemen, according to the list?

2 A. Yes, that's right, I think.

3 Q. You said that in that youth centre Milan Babic was there as well

4 as other people whom you didn't know at the time. And you said of them

5 that they were, as you said, tried and trusted members of the SDS who were

6 the leaders in SAO Krajina and so on, and the RSK. Is that true?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us what this tried and tested term of the SDS

9 means? What did you mean by that?

10 A. Well, it wasn't that they were tried and tested only as far as I

11 was concerned, but what happened on that first day or, rather, that first

12 night, individual SDS members left. They tried to get out of all this,

13 and so quite openly, in front of everyone, they engaged in arguments,

14 decided on certain matters, and that there was a great problem between

15 Opacic, Zelenbaba and the others, because they respected

16 Professor Raskovic, and they didn't want to have done what was being done

17 or what was supposed to be done. So these were discussions they had

18 amongst themselves but they were quite open in discussing these matters.

19 Q. So does that mean that certain members of the SDS were against

20 this weapons distribution? Is that what you said?

21 A. As far as I understood it, yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us whether the SDS or any other part had anything to

23 do with the weapons of the reserve force of the police, or did that come

24 under the exclusive competence of the police, the SUP of Knin in this

25 particular case?

Page 2074

1 A. All I can say is that at that point in time it had become clear

2 that everything that was happening had been planned, not only by one man,

3 but that a number of people had to be informed of that and that there had

4 to be a long-term plan for the realisation of things like that. And

5 somewhat later on, these matters were discussed openly, publicly. They

6 discussed how to organise the reserve force, what to call it, how to rally

7 the men, how to meet the needs of the situation.

8 Q. Did you know why that day a state of war was proclaimed in Knin?

9 Was there a siren that went off as a sign of alarm?

10 A. I didn't hear an alert siren going off, but judging by what was

11 said at the time, the barricades had been erected to protect the Croatian

12 police forces entering Knin and placing the chequerboard on the Knin

13 police station and the emblem on the caps of the policemen.

14 Q. Do you remember that from the 19th of August to the 2nd of

15 September, 1990, there was a referendum that was called for in Krajina, a

16 referendum for the Serb people in Krajina?

17 A. I know that there was a referendum because at a certain point in

18 time I personally went with a man who was a member at the time of the

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted) And we took up some passages there

22 with the voting slips, with the ballots, but I can't remember the exact

23 date.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps line 10 ought to be

Page 2075

1 redacted in view of the guidelines given.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

3 May that line 10 please be redacted, the line starting after "I

4 went with him --" including "I went with him," I think, after Nebojsa

5 Mandinic.

6 Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic. You may proceed.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, please bear in mind that you ought to take care not to

9 mention exactly what you did. So give us a description of your activity,

10 but take care not to disclose your identity.

11 A. I do apologise. It wasn't intentional, of course.

12 Q. Well, yes. I understand that. Do you know that in connection

13 with that referendum that the referendum was banned by the Croatian

14 government and that that is why the sirens sounded on that day? But you

15 say you didn't hear the sirens go off.

16 A. Yes, I did know that there was a referendum which had been banned

17 judging by the stories going round. It was rumoured that it had been

18 banned, but I don't know exactly when this happened.

19 Q. In paragraph 19 of your statement, you said that when all this was

20 happening, around that date, the 17th, it's on page 4 of your statement in

21 the B/C/S version, anyway, paragraph 19, that when they events were

22 happening around the 17th of August that the barricades had been erected,

23 made of logs, and that they were erected on the day when the weapons were

24 distributed in Knin and that they were erected in Civljani, Kosovo, on the

25 Vrbnik-Oklaj road, Zrmanja, Djevrske, and Rudale. Is that right, witness?

Page 2076

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You said that these reservists who were issued with weapons at the

3 Golubic youth settlement, the police reservists were then sent to these

4 barricades; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You said that these barricades were used for protection. Who were

7 they protecting people from?

8 A. As far as I understood things, these barricades were protection

9 from the Croat MUP, the Croat policemen, and in order to prevent them from

10 placing a chequerboard flag on the fortress of Knin.

11 Q. Do you know anything about the 21st of August, about some

12 movements of Croat special forces from Drnis and Sinj?

13 A. Let me just say in that context - I don't want to get anything

14 wrong - already at that time I was at the station quite often, and there

15 were very many people who were on the other side of the barricades, if I

16 can put it that way, who were calling and who were talking about the

17 movements of the police forces that were getting closer to Knin.

18 Q. Can you tell us whose police forces these were that were moving in

19 the direction of Knin?

20 A. The police forces of the MUP of Croatia. They were called

21 "redarstvenici."

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 MR. WHITING: Excuse me. This should be in private session.

Page 2077

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour -- Your Honour, I

2 proceeded from the fact that this part of the text had not been redacted,

3 but if you wish, we can move into private session, yes.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I suggest we do, Mr. Milovancevic, if you don't

5 mind.

6 May we please -- may the Chamber please move into private session.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2078











11 Page 2078 redacted. Private session.















Page 2079

1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. When you described those -- those days, the 17th of August, and

7 duty service, you say that in Golubic there was duty service round the

8 clock and that often the accused Martic was on duty there as well; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You explained that after spending ten or 15 days in Golubic this

12 staff was moved to Oton and that this happened towards the end of August

13 or beginning the September. Is that right, Witness?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you say in your statement that it was being said that the JNA

16 would come to Golubic to arrest all of those who worked at the radio and

17 that that's why you had to move out fast?

18 A. Yes, that there would be arrests all around. I think Dusan

19 Orlovic came up with that or something like that. At any rate, he was the

20 one who had lots of information at the time.

21 Q. Did you explain that you heard that the JNA was negotiating with

22 Tudjman and that one of the subjects of the negotiations was for the

23 Krajina Serbs to get a softer -- to follow a softer line?

24 MR. WHITING: Your Honour. Your Honour, I'm very sorry to

25 interrupt counsel. It just would be helpful for us and for the witness if

Page 2080

1 when counsel refers to the statement if he could identify the paragraph

2 number that he's referring to, which he's done in the past but has stopped

3 doing. I think that would be helpful. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: He's nodding. I assume he understands.

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I wish to thank my

6 learned friend.

7 Q. I put the text of paragraph 18 to you, that is on page 4 in B/C/S.

8 Do you remember my question, Witness?

9 A. Your question?

10 Q. Do you want me to repeat my question?

11 Did you state that you heard that the JNA was negotiating with

12 Tudjman about softening the line of the Krajina Serbs and their general

13 policy and that they were trying to slow down everything that was going on

14 in Krajina?

15 A. That was -- excuse me. That was what they were talking amongst

16 themselves, the people who were there then, people from the party, when

17 they were talking to Martic, and he was there practically around the

18 clock, for 24 hours.

19 Q. In paragraph 14 of your statement you said, somewhere around the

20 middle: "I do not that I that the JNA was involved in the handing out of

21 weapons."

22 Do you mean then, in Golubic on the 17th of August?

23 A. Yes. I can explain, because soon after that Tolimir and Pecanac

24 came. They were there on at that day, and there were many things that

25 were not logical, and there was total confusion as to who was doing what

Page 2081

1 or, rather, what was going on. It was all around us.

2 Q. Are you trying to say that it was illogical for you that

3 intelligence officers. JNA should be checking on what was going on

4 concerning the weapons distribution or was it something else that was

5 illogical to you?

6 A. Well, the policy or the approach of the army, of the JNA,

7 regarding all these problems, on the one hand what they were stating and

8 officers were showing up there, I think this led to confusion. There was

9 no logic, absolutely. What was said later about the arrests and the

10 removal of barricades and things like that.

11 Q. You explained that at that time in Golubic there was the -- there

12 was a retired current, the Bogoljub Popovic and retired Colonel Stojko

13 Bjelanovic. Do you think that retired officers have anything to do with

14 the active military?

15 A. In terms of our mentality and our friendships and what we know,

16 it's the same. When an officer is retired or anybody, he keeps his

17 friends and relationships with people where he spent his entire life

18 before that, which is not to say that they were representatives of the

19 Yugoslav People's Army.

20 Q. After the news about this possibility of the JNA arresting all of

21 you in Golubic, did you really move to Otok?

22 A. The next morning, around 5.00 in the morning, Martic called me.

23 Everything had been packed, and this had to do with the Territorial

24 Defence. And then we went to the locality of Oton. It's actually Oton

25 Polje, top of the hill of Oton, to the Knezovic house. Ratko was one of

Page 2082

1 the brothers.

2 Q. At the end of paragraph 19 of your statement, did you not explain

3 that Serb barricades functioned well, that they were equipped with

4 automatic weapons and radio devices and that presidents of local SDS

5 boards were in command, and that Martic also insisted that there be an

6 active-duty police officer at these barricades at all times?

7 A. That is correct. I can explain that, too, if necessary. I can

8 clarify what was going on there.

9 Q. We'll move on with the questions and we'll get to that too. Thank

10 you.

11 In paragraph 20, did you say that Martic was really suspicious of

12 the SDS and he did not believe that they were informing him of everything

13 that was going on and he thought that the SDS would not be able to get him

14 the number of people that they had promised for the barricades?

15 A. Yes, he said that openly. Because already at that time, I can

16 just tell you this. Once I said that precisely then when we moved to Oton

17 that there was this division in the SDS. Jovo Zelenbaba -- or, rather,

18 Jovo Opacic and Zelenbaba asked for all this to be closed down before

19 something even bigger happened.

20 Q. You said that local people were at the barricades. Can you tell

21 us what was the point of Martic's insistence that active-duty policemen

22 also be at the barricades? What did he want to achieve through this?

23 A. At the very beginning of the barricades, irrespective of who was

24 travelling in terms of ethnicity, they had very unpleasant situations at

25 the barricades. There were thefts. Money was taken away, their IDs.

Page 2083

1 Whatever they had in their cars would be searched or seized. It was

2 humiliating, and people were very dissatisfied, especially people who were

3 still working then outside the barricades in Drnis and elsewhere. So what

4 was the point? A professional policeman was supposed to supervise this in

5 a way, whereas other people came from elsewhere.

6 Q. What you've said to us just now does that mean that Mr. Martic

7 wanted to ensure law and order by involving active-duty policemen to

8 prevent this kind of wilful behaviour?

9 A. I think that he really wanted to prevent thefts. And in the

10 beginning his was to have control and prevent dissatisfaction on the part

11 of Serbs who went that way, who worked elsewhere and would come back home

12 that way. Many people worked beyond the barricades so there were many

13 problems involved.

14 Q. In relation to what you've just said, perhaps it would be good if

15 you could explain to us. These barricades were actually roadblocks. Did

16 they physically block the road or did they make it possible for traffic to

17 go on but involving certain control?

18 A. Well, it depends. I can say that on the first day of the

19 barricades they were 100 per cent obstacles. The next few days people

20 couldn't go to work any more. There was nothing. So then these

21 barricades remained, but they got several barricades. Like the letter Z.

22 You'd have to slow down completely. You'd have to go this way and that

23 way. So there were some kind of barriers there or logs that could be

24 moved so they could be closed and opened.

25 Q. So, the people that manned the barricades, in the centre where

Page 2084

1 there was a radio station, did reports come in about possible Croatian

2 troop movements? Is that what the people manning the barricades did? Did

3 they send out these messages?

4 A. Well, I can't say that it was the people manning the barricades

5 because each of the barricades had their headquarters or houses, huts.

6 For example, the Vrbnik direction, Oklaj, Vrbnik-Oklaj. The barricade was

7 at the border somewhere. But what happened in the cultural centre in

8 Vrbnik where they slept and what happened in the other villages, for

9 example, sometimes the barricade would be several hundred metres in front

10 whereas the headquarters were in the rear, if I can put it that way.

11 Behind the barricades.

12 Q. You said at one point in respect to a question from the Prosecutor

13 that at that time you were not afraid of the Croatian police and Croatian

14 authorities or that you didn't feel fear. Is that what you said?

15 A. Yes. Not only me but 80 or 90 per cent of the population didn't

16 give it a second thought. We all had friends and relatives on both sides,

17 and there were a lot of mixed marriages, for example.

18 Q. Now, is it a fact that those barricades were erected to prevent

19 the Croatian police from entering into Serb territory?

20 A. At that time, yes.

21 Q. In paragraph 20 of your statement, did you explain in the middle

22 of that paragraph or last part of the paragraph, did you say that when two

23 jeeps arrived they were blue police PUCH vehicles when they arrived in

24 Knin, and while you were on your way to the police station you saw members

25 of the regular police force fleeing, running away down the street from

Page 2085

1 those vehicles because they thought that it was the Croatian police?

2 Isn't that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, why did armed Serb policemen fear the Croatian police? Why

5 were they running away on that particular occasion?

6 A. I really can't answer that. I can't speak on anybody's behalf. I

7 can't say why they were running away. Most probably they were afraid.

8 That's my answer.

9 Q. But you said a moment ago that there was no fear. So how can you

10 say that other people weren't afraid or whether they were afraid or not?

11 You see, armed -- you see, these armed policemen when they saw two

12 vehicles who they believed belonged to special Croatian forces run --

13 tried to run away, ran down the street.

14 A. I said that I was not afraid of this because I didn't give it much

15 thought.

16 Q. Thank you, Witness. That will suffice.

17 Did you explain to us that on one or two occasions in Knin people

18 arrived from the MUP of Serbia in order to check out and see whether the

19 police station of the municipality and other important buildings in Knin

20 had been bugged by the Croatian police?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you say that, as you put it, certain bugs were found in

23 somebody's offices, on somebody's premises? Whose?

24 A. Yes, they were found. Mostly -- what I'm saying now is what the

25 experts from the MUP of Serbia showed us. They were found in most

Page 2086

1 offices, in Babic's office in particular, and they showed us what it

2 looked like, like a pea. And they found one, another bug in a vase of

3 flowers. Now, who placed what where, I don't know, but I was present

4 there, so that's what I'm telling you.

5 Q. Did the SUP in Knin and the such of the SAO Krajina at that time,

6 without technical assistance from Serbia, could it have detected those

7 bugs and done away with them, the interception devices?

8 A. No, it could not.

9 Q. And what about the centre in Golubic? Could it provide the

10 necessary vehicles, technical equipment for training without the

11 assistance of the MUP of Serbia that you talked about?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What about the people working in the police force? Could they

14 have had salaries without assistance from Serbia, the kind that you talked

15 to us about?

16 A. No. They couldn't do without assistance from Serbia later on. At

17 the beginning, as I said, their salaries -- other, rather, it was

18 financial assistance that was given and collected by people collecting up

19 money for food, clothing, footwear, meat, meat processed goods, that was

20 given in lieu of a salary, but my answer to you is no, not without

21 Serbia's assistance.

22 Q. Did you know whether the Croatian authorities abolished any funds

23 from the budget allocated to the Serb municipalities in Krajina at that

24 time?

25 A. Yes, that's right, they did.

Page 2087

1 Q. And the fact that these funds were cut off, was that the reason

2 that in Krajina there was no resources? There was no money for salaries

3 or anything else, so they needed assistance from Serbia. Was that the

4 case?

5 A. I'm not sure. My answer is no.

6 Q. Do you happen to know whether for the salaries of the policemen in

7 Knin that collection drives were carried out amongst the various factories

8 and enterprises in Knin, Tvik, and some other ones?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Those contributions, were they sufficient to pay out the workers'

11 salaries in the SUP of Knin, for example, or did they have to ask for

12 assistance, financial assistance?

13 A. I don't think it was enough, no.

14 Q. Do you know anything about the flights of Croatian helicopters

15 flying overhead? Did you follow this or anybody else in Knin and their --

16 and the surrounding parts? Was there the threat of Croatian helicopters

17 flying overhead in 1990?

18 A. Well, all I can tell you is that after August 1990, after the

19 barricades were erected there were rumours about helicopters going around

20 belonging to the MUP of Croatia. However, they were flying rather high,

21 so I can't actually say myself, that I saw a helicopter and identified it

22 as being a Croatian helicopter. But I know that a lot was written about

23 that in the papers, by Ljubisa Cvetkovic, for example. So my answer to at

24 that question is yes, there were helicopters.

25 Q. In paragraph 25 of your written statement, did you say the

Page 2088

1 barricades in Krajina were abolished at the end of December 1990 or early

2 January 1991, that they were taken down?

3 A. Yes, that is what I said.

4 Q. In that same paragraph, did you explain that at that time

5 negotiations took place between the Serbs of Krajina and the Croatian MUP,

6 and that the negotiations were led by a federal commission comprised of

7 the representatives of the federal SUP, the JNA, and the representatives

8 of the SUPs of each of the republics? Do you know about that?

9 A. Yes. I was in the office personally when they arrived, and I said

10 that the representatives arrived. It was the Federal Secretariat of the

11 Interior at that time, and it was made up the secretaries of the SUPs of

12 the republics. And when I said that all the secretaries, that is to say

13 from each republic there was a secretary, and they came to Knin to

14 Martic's office in the police station, and the representative of the army

15 there was a naval officer. Ljubo Beara was his name.

16 Q. Do you know that that delegation, federal delegation, that the

17 delegation was established pursuant to an order from the state Presidency

18 in order to calm the situation down?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, is that the context that you talk about the fact that the

21 barricades were taken down in late December and early January 1991, in

22 connection with that?

23 A. As I said, late December 1990, early January 1991. Well, once the

24 negotiations had started, I can't say on the basis of what these

25 barricades were moved because physically they weren't abolished

Page 2089

1 altogether. They weren't taken down altogether, but the passage was

2 pass -- you could pass by that way.

3 And let me mention just one more thing. At that time, the

4 situation in the Croatian village of Kijevo, as it's downhill, you go

5 downhill, down the road, and it was the village of Kijevo that had set up

6 a barricade first, and also at the exit from Kijevo as you go to the Serb

7 village of Civljani. So that was it.

8 Q. Thank you. We'll come back to Kijevo a little later.

9 In paragraph 26 of your statement, did you say that in January

10 1991, throughout Krajina police stations were put up and that Milan Martic

11 wanted there to be more stations and more police?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can we say -- when you say that -- you use the term the whole of

14 Krajina, did it comprise six municipalities, Knin, Benkovac, and Obrovac,

15 and Lika, Donji Lapac and Korenica and Lika?

16 A. Yes, that's the first part that was called the Serbian Autonomous

17 Province of Krajina, which meant all these municipalities which were

18 linked together territorially. Though made a whole, an entity.

19 Q. Do you know that the government of SAO Krajina, in 1991, on the

20 4th of January, made a decision to establish the SUP of the SAO Krajina

21 and the appointment of Milan Martic as the secretary of the SUP of SAO

22 Krajina?

23 A. I don't remember the exact date, but at the end of 1990 and 1991

24 many things like that took place. Many things were happening, and I think

25 that in January he became secretary of the SUP of SAO Krajina.

Page 2090

1 Q. I asked you whether you knew that the government established the

2 SUP of SAO Krajina and appointed Martic. Do you know of that particular

3 fact?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Previously, on the 21st of December, 1990, was the SAO Krajina

6 established with a Statute of its own in Knin on the 21st of December,

7 1990? That is to say the end of 1990. I'm not insisting upon the exact

8 day, I'm just interested in the general time period.

9 A. Yes, I do think it was established at that time, yes. So my

10 answer is yes.

11 Q. All right, fine. Now can you explain to us if the government of

12 SAO Krajina whose representative was Milan Babic passed an order to

13 establish a SUP and brought in a decision to appoint Martic as the head of

14 that SUP, on the basis -- on what grounds do you state in paragraph 26

15 that this was ordered by Stanisic in order to ensure that the territory

16 stay in Serb hands? Where do you get that piece of information from with

17 respect to the establishment of the police station in Krajina?

18 A. Well, I can explain. When I made the statement, we weren't

19 discussing the federal secretary globally and terminologically speaking.

20 The question of people -- of events that were going on, that was the first

21 contact. It was stage two. So the municipalities that were there were

22 there in SAO Krajina. They were Serb territories that hadn't got any

23 connection with the -- with Serbia. They were supposed to establish

24 police stations and be attached, and they couldn't do that without

25 assistance from outside.

Page 2091

1 Q. As we're talking about this general topic and general context, do

2 you know that in 1990, for instance, after the arrival of Tudjman's party,

3 the HDZ, to power in Croatia, that there was a change in the Croatian

4 constitution and that the Serbs were thrown out of the constitution of

5 Croatia as a nation and that the Serbian language was abolished in the

6 constitution of Croatia as an official language, it was thrown out, and

7 that a new Croatian emblem was introduced, the chequerboard, and that the

8 term redarstvenik was in use? Do you know all about that, Witness?

9 A. Well, I wasn't involved in all these events although I do know the

10 term redarstvenik, but I wasn't kept abreast of political events of that

11 kind, absolutely not.

12 Q. You said on the 9th of that are Belgrade there were large-scale

13 demonstrations going on. Can you tell us what year that was and who

14 demonstrated against whom?

15 A. They were the well-known 9th of March demonstrations that took

16 place in Belgrade where the opposition let by Vuk Draskovic demonstrated

17 against the then power and authority of Slobodan Milosevic. As I

18 understand it, this is my opinion, precisely because of the things that

19 started to happen at that time. And I think they won in 1991, on the 9th

20 of March. They were held in 1991, actually.

21 Q. That is sufficient, Witness. I wanted to ask you this: In

22 paragraph 27 of your statement it says that the demonstrations in Belgrade

23 were held in 1992, 9th of March. So that means that was a mistake. It

24 was a slip, because they took place in 1991, did they not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2092

1 Q. Thank you. So we've cleared that up. Now, you said that Stanisic

2 called Martic and asked him to send some policemen to Belgrade. Did you

3 indeed say that?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. You said that those policemen went to Belgrade in a plane, they

6 flew to Belgrade because the corridor was closed?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was the corridor indeed closed in 1991 or was it closed in 1992?

9 A. When I said that the corridor was closed, it was impossible

10 because there was a lot of things going on in Bosnia. It was impossible

11 to have three buses of armed people and take them through Bosnia without

12 them being noticed. So that's what I meant when I said that.

13 Q. That explanation of yours is somewhat different to what you said

14 in paragraph 27 of your statement, in the continuation of that paragraph,

15 because you say in the penultimate sentence and the last

16 sentence: "Martic told me at that Stanisic had asked for that because the

17 corridor had been closed in 1991, and Stanisic asked that the Serbs in

18 Bosnia be asked to help open the corridor towards Serbia."

19 So that period of time has nothing to do with the events that we

20 know as the events taking place at the corridor, in the corridor, which is

21 April, May, June, 1991; is that right, Witness?

22 A. Yes, that's true, because there was a mistake that was made here.

23 How the mistake came about, I really don't know, but may I be allowed to

24 explain what happened?

25 Q. Witness, I think you and I have understood each other. It's the

Page 2093

1 date that was wrong. So that's enough. That correction is sufficient.

2 And I'm asking you as Defence counsel, I'm asking you this in conformity

3 with the facts that are general knowledge. All I need for you is to say

4 that you agree with that. So thank you.

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think this would

6 be a good time to take the break, unless I'm very much mistaken of the

7 hour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are not mistaken. You're just out by half a

9 minute. If it's convenient, then we will take the break at this time and

10 come back at half past twelve.

11 Court adjourned.

12 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness, a short while ago we spoke about what happened in

17 Belgrade, the demonstrations of March 1991, and what the occasion was.

18 For a moment, we'll go back to the period of August, September 1990. You

19 talked about barricades in Knin, the distribution of weapons, how all of

20 this functioned. You mentioned some organisation called Serb National

21 Resistance. Can you tell us when this appeared and what it was all about?

22 A. The name was the Serb National Resistance, and it consisted of

23 people who were in decision-making positions. For the most part, they

24 were receiving information from the terrain and from radio stations. They

25 were members of the SDS. Dusan Orlovic was then president of Zora, the

Page 2094

1 Serb cultural society. And then there were these others that I mentioned

2 earlier on. Bogoljub Popovic. Former officers of the JNA, that is. Then

3 Milan Martic. It was a body, actually, which had as its task control over

4 the situation on the ground in terms of the movement of Croat troops

5 primarily.

6 Q. Am I right if I say that the full name of this organisation, of

7 this -- or this body was Serb National Resistance Against the Endangerment

8 of Serbs. Do you remember that name, although the -- SSNO is the

9 abbreviation? If you don't remember, just tell me.

10 A. I would just like to say that Serb National Resistance was for

11 creating an organisation for resisting the endangerment of Serbs.

12 Q. Thank you. You said that at meetings of that body, in addition to

13 the persons you mentioned you saw Mr. Babic as well, that he was present

14 often. Is that true?

15 A. At first Babic came to the headquarters. All of these meetings

16 took place in this little house that I mentioned at the youth settlement.

17 That's where it all started.

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 Q. This was a meeting -- or, rather, do you know about a meeting?

24 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, just out of an abundance of caution,

25 perhaps there should be a redaction of lines -- on my screen lines 11

Page 2095

1 through 15, that is the question "You also said" to the end of the answer.

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that the

3 Prosecutor is overabundantly cautious. Of course, if the Trial Chamber

4 believes that a further measure of caution should be taken, I don't mind,

5 but I really don't think that I'm bringing the witness into any kind of

6 danger. Thank you.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That may be true, Mr. Milovancevic, but you are not

8 being denied the right to ask the question. If it is felt by the

9 Prosecution that that might cause a little bit of a problem, maybe we

10 should redact that and then put the same question in private session. And

11 may --

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour. I agree.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then may lines 11 through 15

14 please be redacted, and may we move into private session for

15 Mr. Milovancevic to put those questions in private session.

16 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, just to be clear here, when it's

17 redacted it's only redacted from the broadcast. It remains on the record.

18 So the question and the answer still stands on the record. So I am not

19 sure it's necessary to repeat it in private session.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. Thank you so much for that

21 clarification. It will stand, but let it be redacted for purposes of the

22 public.

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, did I understand

24 this correctly? Are we now in open session or in private session? We

25 should be in open session now, shouldn't we?

Page 2096

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are in open session. Thank you very much,

2 Mr. Milovancevic.

3 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Might I deal with something now

4 Mr. Milovancevic. At page 66, line 8, previously, prior to that you had

5 asked the witness about Mr. Babic and whether he had attended meetings of

6 the -- of the Serbian National Resistance for Endangerment of Serbs,

7 whether he had attended often. That issue has not been addressed by the

8 witness. Would you like to pursue it? In his answer he didn't address

9 that part of it effectively, I do not believe.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11 Q. Witness, did you understand that? You described who was there,

12 and then Mr. Babic was mentioned too. Can you tell us when, where? Bear

13 in mind your own position when you explain all of this. When did you see

14 him, how many times? Let's get that clear.

15 A. All right.

16 Q. So did you see Mr. Babic at meetings of this Serb national

17 resistance or not? If so, how many times and in what period of time?

18 A. I would just like to clear things up immediately. When I say

19 meetings, I'm talking about meetings that were not formal ones in the

20 sense of a -- at a given place at a given time. For the most part, behind

21 my back when meetings were being held, two or three metres behind me there

22 was a long table and chairs, and we can say that there were quite a few

23 people there. So let me get that clear.

24 It was not that these were specific meetings that were intended to

25 be meetings. And Babic did come pretty often to Golubic, yes. I'm sorry,

Page 2097

1 I cannot say that Babic came specifically for a meeting, to attend a

2 meeting.

3 Q. Do you have any knowledge about this? Were these meetings called

4 formally or was this a body that was there in view of the nature of the

5 situation? I don't want to lead you in any way.

6 A. In view of the nature of the situation, people were always there.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please

8 move into private session.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2098

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, we mentioned the arrival of a delegation which the

21 federal authorities sense approximately in January 1991 in order to calm

22 the situation in the Krajina down. You gave quite a few details about

23 this in terms of removal of barricades.

24 Do you remember, do you know that in January 1991 the Presidency

25 of Yugoslavia reached a decision to have all the weapons that were in the

Page 2099

1 hands of the reserve police returned to arms depots? Do you know about

2 that?

3 A. Well, I was really confused by the first question you put just

4 before this one, when you asked about Croatian politicians and Dr. Babic.

5 I really have no idea about this. What I had in mind was when you're

6 asking me now, that is to say when the federal secretary and the military

7 personnel came, they tried to work something like that out.

8 Q. In order to make the Trial Chamber understand your words when you

9 said "when the secretaries came," could you tell us which secretaries?

10 Could you tell us precisely the secretaries of what so that it would be

11 clear for the transcript?

12 A. I've already said several times that the federal commission,

13 precisely perhaps in this decision that you referred to of the Presidency

14 of Yugoslavia consisted of these secretaries from all the republics, and

15 they made up this commission along with Ljubo Beara, the then

16 representative of the army. Is that the question that you're asking me

17 about?

18 Q. I'm going to put another question to you in order to clear things

19 up. It's going to be a direct question. Are you referring to the

20 secretary of the federal SUP and the secretaries of the Ministries of the

21 Interior and the republics? Are these the people that you're referring

22 to? Is this what we're talking about?

23 A. Yes. I'm referring to the secretaries from the federal SUP in

24 charge of their different republics.

25 Q. Thank you, Witness. In your statement when answering the

Page 2100

1 Prosecutor's question and also in your written statement, you talked about

2 the camp of Golubic where police specialists were trained; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You explained that the attendees of that course were, as a rule,

6 professional policemen from different municipalities who came there for

7 special training; is that correct?

8 A. Was that training which gave them advanced knowledge and training

9 also in terms of sophisticated military training which regular policemen

10 do not get. Do not get?

11 A. Well, for the most part this was training of military nature for

12 combat units, for combat action, that is. And can I add something to

13 that? There are quite a few policemen there who had previously been

14 dismissed from the police and I don't know why.

15 Q. As for the period we're talking about is it 1991, the beginning of

16 1991, in relation to this training in Golubic?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Was your answer yes? Did I understand you correctly?

19 A. If you mean the first three months of 1991, then the answer is

20 yes.

21 Q. Thank you. Did you state that a man called Frenki, who had come

22 from Belgrade, that he's the one who provided equipment, money for this

23 training camp in Golubic?

24 A. I don't know whether that's exactly what I stated, but I said that

25 he first came to Knin at that time or, rather, that he brought this man

Page 2101

1 called Captain Dragan to Knin for the first time then.

2 Q. Did you say that the trainees, after completing their training,

3 which lasted for two and a half months roughly, went to their own

4 municipalities to the police stations then, that before they left Golubic

5 they had to pass a test of some kind or, rather, carry out an assignment

6 for them to become these specials?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you also say that every group that went to Golubic for

9 training numbered about 200 men?

10 A. Taking all the people that were in Golubic together, yes.

11 Q. Did you say that a platoon which had been trained in Golubic went

12 on assignment to target the Croatian village of Ljubovo in Lika?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In response to a question from the Prosecution, did you say that

15 there was some sort of livestock farm in that same village of Ljubovo in

16 addition to the dwellings there?

17 A. I don't know whether it was a cattle farm, but it was some sort of

18 farm, yes. Now, it can be a general farm, it can be a factory farm.

19 Anyway, it was a farm of some kind.

20 Q. Thank you. I apologise if I wasn't interpreting you precisely,

21 but you were speaking of a farm. Right. I couldn't remember the exact

22 words you used.

23 Now, do you know where the position of that farm was, where the

24 farm was located in relation to the village?

25 A. No.

Page 2102

1 Q. Do you know that that particular farm was on a hill above Ljubovo

2 at an elevation and that it was about one kilometre away from the nearest

3 houses? Do you know about that?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know that at Ljubovo there was a special unit of the

6 Croatian police force precisely on that farm and that it was that farm

7 manned by the Croatian police that was attacked and not a civilian

8 settlement with Croatian civilians inhabiting it?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you take part in that action at Ljubovo, the one you

11 mentioned?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you see what the situation was like in Ljubovo after the

14 action had taken place?

15 A. No.

16 Q. How come you can claim, then, that there were mortars targeting

17 the houses with the Croatian -- to force the population to flee and to

18 cleanse the area of Croats? How can you say that rocket launchers were

19 fired for heaven's sake?

20 A. On the basis of these stories told by the commander that went on

21 that assignment, and Calic, and the man who rocketed or launched the

22 rocket launchers. He was -- his name was Pero. He was the man who was

23 dismissed, the policeman who was dismissed before 1990. I can't remember

24 his exact surname now, but I will remember it. I do apologise for that.

25 Q. Do you know that after this attack the Croatian post from Ljubovo

Page 2103

1 was disbanded? Did you hear about that later on, or did you ever hear

2 that at the top of Ljubovo hill, on the former farm, that the special

3 Croatian police force was located there?

4 A. No. Nobody ever talked about anything like that.

5 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that Frenki, who had brought in the

6 resources for work in Golubic, also brought with him instructors, and he

7 devised some sort of armoured train. Is that true?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you explain to us that there were about 30 members of the

10 special police force in paragraph 47 of your statement in that train, in

11 that armoured train, and that for the first time the train was used in the

12 attack at Lovinac which otherwise is a Croatian village near Medak?

13 A. That is correct, whether you bet me just explain. Depending on

14 how many people might have been available. Sometimes there might have

15 been 30; sometimes there might have been 60.

16 Q. When you spoke about that attack on Lovinac, and you said that it

17 was a Croatian village, did you also say that in addition to the train

18 there was a mortar company on the other side, a mortar squad, and that

19 Martic was up at the positions as well, 800 metres above the village?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that armoured train when it went into action on the one hand

22 and the rocket launchers on the other, was the village taken on that

23 occasion?

24 A. No.

25 Q. In your statement, in paragraph 47, did you say that the attack

Page 2104

1 was not successful? "This attack was unsuccessful," is that what you

2 said?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know whether in Lovinac there was a crew of Croatian ZNG

5 forces, numerous one?

6 A. That's the first time I hear of this.

7 Q. How do you explain, then, your statement to the Prosecution that

8 the attack was unsuccessful when you had an armoured train on the one

9 side, rocket launchers on the other attacking an allegedly unmanned,

10 undefended Croatian village? Do you have any explanation for that?

11 A. Well, I can explain, yes.

12 Q. Well, go ahead, try.

13 A. As I've already said, it was a chance to test of train and see

14 what effect could be gained. However, none of the infantry tried to take

15 the village, enter the village. So when I said that Martic was with --

16 was at about a distance of 800 metres, let me explain. The railway line

17 or the train would go on one side in the direction of the mortar artillery

18 on the other side and we were at a 90 degree angle on the third side.

19 Q. Do you know whether near Lovinac there was a large ammunitions

20 depot of any kind or a major JNA facility?

21 A. I really don't know.

22 Q. Do you know whether in Licki Osijek there is a large factory for

23 the production of mortars and mines?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know that the Croatian forces encircled and attacked JNA

Page 2105

1 units and laid siege to them from the ammunitions depot?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You explained that the attack on Lovinac was unsuccessful. Now,

4 what would you consider a successful attack on Lovinac to be?

5 A. As I understand it, the success of an attack on Lovinac would have

6 been entry and taking Lovinac -- that the Serbs should take Lovinac

7 physically. But I don't think that the desired effect was achieved, the

8 effect that was planned. And when I say that, I'm referring to the

9 shelling and the effect the armoured train was supposed to have.

10 Q. Did you hear of an inhabitant of Knin by the name of Dambivozar

11 [phoen] in Knin from 1990 to 1995. He looked after the waterworks.

12 Q. I really don't know whether a Croat, whether he -- an inhabitant

13 of Knin during all these events from 1990 to 1995, whether there was

14 somebody who drove food round to the nurseries and kindergartens of Knin,

15 food for the children?

16 A. I don't know, but Babic's secretary was married to a Croat, and I

17 think she was half Croat herself. So I don't know.

18 Q. What about Martic? Did he ever express any hatred towards the

19 Croatian population or ordered any evil to be done to anyone in your

20 presence or in the presence of other people?

21 A. He never directly ordered anything or expressed anything like

22 that. He hated the chequerboard emblem. He hated Tudjman most of all and

23 would imitate him fairly often, but otherwise, that he expressed hatred

24 towards any civilian, no, he didn't.

25 Q. Did Milan Martic help the civilian population? Did he protect the

Page 2106

1 civilian population from any ill-deeds regardless of ethnicity?

2 A. I think he tried, as far as I know. He did try. Now, what was

3 behind all that I really don't know.

4 Q. You said that not centre at Golubic Frenki arrived to bring in

5 money, equipment, and resources generally. And in paragraph 49 of your

6 statement, you said Martic, Milan Martic, appointed Dusan Orlovic as head

7 of the state security of SAO Krajina. Is that true? Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you also say that Martic discovered that that man Orlovic was

10 sending reports directly to the state security service in Belgrade?

11 A. Yes. He was in contact with Frenki and Stanisic.

12 Q. And was Martic angry because of that?

13 A. He was angry and more and more distrustful towards them. And,

14 actually, that's what happened later.

15 Q. In paragraph 49 did you also say that Martic had asked that Frenki

16 be withdrawn from the camp, to Krajina? And in paragraph 52 that at the

17 beginning of 1992 he ordered that Frenki, Captain Dragan, Zoran Rajic

18 Goran Starcevic, Dusan Orlovic be arrested?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In paragraph 48 of your statement will you day that already in

21 July 1991 Martic was very angry with Frenki?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Because Frenki was constantly flaunting money around and because

24 he was surrounded by people who drank a lot, because he was involved with

25 the local women and didn't leave a good impression on the local

Page 2107

1 inhabitants.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you also say that mortars knew about that and was angry

4 because the local population didn't have enough food or fuel, and he

5 wasn't receiving the financial support promised to him, whereas Frenki, on

6 the other hand, was behaving and acting the way he was.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You mentioned an action at Plitvice in 1991 when it was Easter.

9 Whose Easter was it? Do you remember?

10 A. It was the Serbian Easter, as far as I remember.

11 Q. So who attacked whom at Plitvice on that 31st of March or 1st of

12 April, 1991?

13 A. The day before, Martic had ordered Djurica Djemauz [phoen] to go

14 to Plitvice and to establish a police station there. That night -- that

15 same night or the next day, we saw on television -- I think it was that

16 same day in the afternoon. On television they showed the Serb flag at

17 Plitvice. The next morning, I think there was a clash between the --

18 well, the Serbian police was attacked by the Croatian police, technically

19 speaking.

20 Q. And what was the majority population at Plitvice? Can you tell us

21 anything about that?

22 A. I don't know specifically for Plitvice.

23 Q. You said that the Croatian police technically attacked the Serb

24 police. What do you mean "technically"? Who started shooting at whom,

25 and how did it all end? Do you know?

Page 2108

1 A. The Serb police were there. They had taken up their positions the

2 day before. Now, I don't know who started shooting first, but on the Serb

3 side Rajko Vukadinovic was killed. Two other men were injured, were

4 wounded, and two persons disappeared and were later exchanged in Zagreb.

5 Q. Do you know that the Presidency of Yugoslavia ordered that the

6 Yugoslav People's Army should intervene and separate the two conflicting

7 parties?

8 A. I don't know that. I don't know that it was the Yugoslav state

9 Presidency that ordered that. I don't know what the order was, but I do

10 know that the army was there and that they managed to repulse the Croatian

11 force because they stayed on there for quite a long time, until the end of

12 1991, the beginning of the war and the large-scale military activities and

13 the cleansing.

14 Q. Let's go back for a moment to that 31st of March, 1st of April,

15 1991. We mentioned Plitvice. We mentioned the Serb side, the Croatian

16 side, the Yugoslav People's Army.

17 At the time was there a war going on in Yugoslavia, Witness?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Was Yugoslavia a sovereign European country, member of the United

20 Nations at that point in time?

21 A. As I understand it, at that point in time, yes, it was.

22 Q. Did the JNA represent the federal armed force?

23 A. Probably, yes. Yes.

24 Q. Did the JNA intervene pursuant to an order from the Yugoslav state

25 Presidency at a point in time when the Croatian special forces were

Page 2109

1 attacking the Serb police on the territory of the state where there is no

2 armed conflict, a conflict broke out between two police forces?

3 A. I state again I cannot know who ordered what. I really don't

4 know. I can't say.

5 Q. All I asked you was whether at that point in time the JNA

6 intervened. Looking at the sequence of events and the time involved, do

7 you know anything about that?

8 A. Yes, it did intervene. Let me just explain. Now, what shape and

9 form this took and pursuant to whose command it intervened, I really don't

10 know.

11 Q. Thank you. We will go back to the barricades for a moment. You

12 mentioned the barricades, and then you mentioned the barricades in Kijevo.

13 When were they put up, do you know?

14 A. I cannot remember exactly now because several times attempts were

15 made to put up these barricades. In January, they became even more and

16 more difficult to negotiate. I cannot tell you exactly, because they put

17 the barricades up several -- in several stages. They would let people go

18 to work, children to school, and then they would put up a total barrier,

19 and then there were talks to the effect of them being closed down

20 completely and open. So it's hard to set a date.

21 Q. Were there Serb and Croat barricades or, to be more precise,

22 barricades on the Serb side and the barricades on the Croat side? Can it

23 be put that way?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In February or March 1991, as you said in paragraph 31, at a

Page 2110

1 barricade in Kijevo, was Vaso Pecar not killed, a Serb about 20 years old?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You said that Mr. Babic went to the village of Polaca from where

4 this killed young man was in order to calm the population down; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So Mr. Babic went to the Serb population in the village of Polaca,

8 whose inhabitant was killed, in order to calm down the situation. Did we

9 understand each other correctly?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know where Vaso Pecar was killed and who killed him?

12 A. As far as I know, he was killed by the policemen, by the Croat

13 MUP. I actually have to explain this. When I say Bat, Bat is the name of

14 a hill, a hilltop. It was half Serb and half Croat. So he was killed

15 below this hill called Bat.

16 Q. Where were these policemen from and what was their ethnicity, or

17 rather, these people who killed him?

18 A. I don't know who they were, if they were members of the ZNG or

19 Croatian MUP. But they were policemen at any rate.

20 Q. Did you explain where they were stationed? I mean, at what

21 particular place?

22 A. As far as I know, they were stationed in Kijevo. That's when they

23 had established a type of police station.

24 Q. So then in February or March 1991 when Vaso Pecar was killed the

25 Croatian authorities established a police station or a type of police

Page 2111

1 station in Kijevo; that correct?

2 A. That was my understanding.

3 Q. You said that Mr. Babic was advised not to go and get the young

4 man's body because that could have been dangerous for him.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You said that some officer of the JNA advised Babic not to go, and

7 what side was the danger on? What kind of danger was involved?

8 A. The danger of him being killed came from the Croat side.

9 Q. Is it correct that the body of the killed young Serb lay on the

10 site where he had been killed for two days and that it was impossible to

11 get to him because of that danger?

12 A. As far as I can remember, yes.

13 Q. Do you know that the grandfather of this young man, Vaso Pecar,

14 that his grandfather had been killed in the Second World War together with

15 62 other Serb inhabitants of Polaca and that he was thrown into a pit?

16 A. Yes.

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

Page 2112

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, my understanding of redaction is

11 it's not that the statement gets expunged from the evidence but that it is

12 not published to the public, that's all. So may we redact it?

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is precisely

14 the way I understood you. Yes, that's fine. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we redact it?

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. May that sentence refer -- the question

18 saying -- I'll tell you what it is. Page 83, line 15 through to 17, may

19 that be redacted, please.

20 You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. In relation to the killing of this young man of Serb ethnicity,

23 Vaso Pecar, do you know any details about the funeral? Did many people

24 come, and where did they come from? Did they come from Knin only?

25 A. It was a big funeral, yes. Now, I really don't know where all

Page 2113

1 these people came from exactly.

2 Q. You mentioned an action in Kijevo sometime in August 1991. Do you

3 know that at that time the father-in-law of Mr. Babic was killed, that the

4 house of his parents was set on fire and that the mother and grandmother

5 barely managed to save their lives? Do you know anything about that?

6 A. I really cannot. I cannot. It's hard for me to answer that

7 question. But I do know about people who were killed on the other side.

8 I don't know about this, but I know, for example, in the village of Dragic

9 that two old people were killed, hanged. As for this particularly, I do

10 not know.

11 Q. These people killed in the village of Dragic, who were they and

12 who hanged them?

13 A. Well, they were Serbs.

14 Q. Can you tell us when this happened, in what period of time

15 exactly? What do you know, and who did you hear this from?

16 A. I really cannot. Well, really, I cannot say now. I know that

17 there were problems to get there, to get them. It's not that I was

18 directly involved. It's not that I knew anything specific.

19 Q. When you mention Kijevo, Civljani, Vrlika -- Kijevo and Vrlika are

20 Croat villages. Is that what you said?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Between them or behind them when facing Knin or the other way

23 around, are there any Serb villages, and did their position pose a threat

24 to the Serb villages in any way? Do you know anything about this?

25 A. In front of Vrlika, perhaps 20 kilometres or so, is the Serb

Page 2114

1 village of Otisci. They had barricades too. They were under a blockade,

2 because from Sinj and Vrlika, I mean they were under a blockade for a long

3 time. That's the only Serb village I know. That's viewed from the east.

4 But if you look on the left-hand side from the east, there are some

5 villages but I really don't know now. Those that -- I don't know what --

6 or, rather, what kind of villages they are, because most of these villages

7 actually had their populations moved out when the hydroelectric power

8 plant was being built 20 or 30 years ago. So I really don't know who they

9 belonged to eventually.

10 Q. You said that the population of the Croat villages had problems

11 because of Serb barricades. What about the inhabitants of Serb villages?

12 Did they have problems due to Croat barricades?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Problems in what sense, mutual?

15 A. Well, mutual. The problems were the same on both sides. You

16 couldn't pass through. You couldn't go to see a doctor. Children

17 couldn't go to school. You couldn't go shopping. So it was both ways.

18 In a way, everybody was tied down to his own village. So what he had

19 there he did.

20 Q. You said that the Croatian police in Kijevo in February, March

21 1991 set up a police station there. Are you aware of the history of

22 Kijevo? Do you know that Kijevo was a well-known Ustasha stronghold in

23 the Second World War?

24 A. I would like to explain something. Directly, I and many young

25 people did not really pay any attention to all of this. I can say

Page 2115

1 something. A cousin of mine, there is an enormous age difference between

2 the two of us.

3 Q. Bear in mind your identity though. Excuse me.

4 A. For example, he was a Chetnik. So we had problems in our

5 relations. So that's why I really find all of this very foreign.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness. Do you know whether in August 1991, in the

7 Croatian village of Kijevo, there was a military police station were there

8 were specialists of the Croatian MUP and the ZNG there at the time?

9 A. At the time of the conflict when we came after that there was some

10 type of Croatian military there. Now, was it the Croatian MUP, the ZNG,

11 the police or something else, I really don't know. At any rate, it was

12 Croat forces.

13 Q. Do you know how many Croatian troops were in Kijevo and how many

14 were taken prisoner, how many Croatian troops on that occasion?

15 A. On that occasion ten were taken prisoner. Judging by the

16 equipment and what was there in the station itself, I think there were

17 over 30 people.

18 I have just given an estimate on the basis of the sleeping bags

19 found and the equipment that was there.

20 Q. Do you know that there was a list made of the people who were

21 taken prisoner and that it was 62 of them?

22 A. I don't know about that. I can say once again what we saw the

23 first day when the Serb forces entered. There were ten men. I saw them

24 with my very own eyes, and that was when Ratko Mladic was there. And when

25 we came after the cleansing, there were only ten prisoners there.

Page 2116

1 Q. Do you know what units took part in that operation against Kijevo?

2 A. Artillery support given by the air force, the artillery of the

3 Yugoslav People's Army, then the infantry was the police from the Knin

4 police station, and mortar fire came from Srb.

5 Q. How come you know all of that when you arrived in Kijevo after it

6 was all over?

7 A. I know simply because the night before the attack was being

8 prepared, the attack on Kijevo, I went to Nebojsa Mandinic. He is a

9 member of the Executive Board of the SDS. And again on Martic orders, we

10 went to the centre of Knin, and Desic [phoen] is the name of that square.

11 That's where we waited for these men with mortars to come from Srb and

12 Donji Lapac. We waited for them and Mandinic and I took them to a

13 locality there of this Boro Djukic, this commander who I already

14 mentioned. We left them there.

15 I think I've answered your question.

16 Q. This Boro Djukic, whose commander was he?

17 A. Yes. Let me just say this: Boro or Borislav Djukic. It's one

18 and the same person. He's a commander from the Yugoslav People's Army in

19 that area. Specifically he held tank positions above the village of

20 Kijevo, and in Polaca on the Serb side.

21 Q. So you are saying that this platoon or this unit with the mortar,

22 that you took this unit to Boro Djukic and placed them under his command.

23 Is that what you said?

24 A. I can explain this. When we arrived, Nebojsa Mandinic talked to

25 them because he was the representative of the then authorities. He said

Page 2117

1 to Djukic or, rather, he introduced the two. I think that Petkovic was

2 the name of the commander of the mortars. And Djukic told him where to

3 place his mortars facing east on the left-hand side.

4 Can I just continue? Now, what was the problem? The problem was,

5 as they said then, that they had 82-millimetre mortars that had a range of

6 only 3.200 metres. So then they started quarreling why they didn't take

7 120-millimetre mortars so that they could target the centre of the

8 village, because the mortars could not really reach anything else but the

9 first houses.

10 Q. Does that mean --

11 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry to interrupt. Just if there are going to

12 be further questions about this event, I wonder if we could go into

13 private session. It's just sort of specifics about meetings and people

14 and so forth.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, may we please move into private session.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

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Page 2118











11 Page 2118 redacted. Private session.















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Page 2120

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19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you very much. You may proceed,

Page 2121

1 Mr. Milovancevic.

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. When you mentioned officer Djukic and Milan Martic in Otoka, did

4 you know that on the day he was arrested Officer Djukic was going to his

5 native village to attend his own father's funeral and that he was

6 abducted, beaten up, and released before Milan Martic and completely

7 independently of him? Do you know of that detail?

8 A. No, I really don't.

9 Q. Well, how then do you link Milan Martic and Colonel Djukic on that

10 particular occasion? How do you know about that, or do you know about

11 that only on the basis of hearsay, indirect conversations?

12 A. Well, first and foremost I know about that from what the driver

13 said, Nebojsa Stupar's driver, because he was there. That's the first

14 point. Secondly, they talked about things like that, and it's very

15 difficult to explain that but they talked about those things quite openly.

16 And the third point is that they were in the same vehicle. And if they

17 were in the same vehicle, then I don't think ...

18 Q. Witness, can you tell us who was in the same vehicle? Do you mean

19 to say that Mr. Djukic, Officer Djukic, was with Milan Martic in the same

20 car or what?

21 A. As I understood the situation, this is what it was: There was a

22 military vehicle belonging to Djukic and Martic's driver. But I state

23 again I'm just telling you what I know and what I was told. So I can't

24 say, because they would talk about that quite often, and that's what stuck

25 in my mind.

Page 2122

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: So the Chamber can understand one little point, you

2 say there was a military vehicle belonging to Djukic and Martic's driver.

3 Was it owned by two people? Actually, three, the military, Djukic, and

4 Martic's driver. What do you mean by that statement?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise. When I said that, I

6 meant the driver and Martic's vehicle and Djukic, and the vehicle that

7 belonged to the Yugoslav People's Army and his driver. So the vehicle

8 belonging to the Yugoslav people's Army and another vehicle that belonged

9 to the police of Krajina.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: So there were two vehicles.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. As far as I understand it, two

12 vehicles.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, who was in the one vehicle?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The two of them. Martic and Djukic

15 were in one vehicle.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And who was in the other vehicle?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the other vehicle. So there was

18 one driver driving Djukic and Martic, and the other driver was on his own.

19 I don't know that there was a third person involved.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: At least that point is clear for whatever --

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. In connection to the event in Otoka, have you ever heard of

23 Lieutenant Colonel Smiljanic?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Can you tell us, please, whether you know that the -- that Croatia

Page 2123

1 and Slovenia declared their secession from Yugoslavia on the 25th of June,

2 1991? Do you know about that detail?

3 A. [No translation]

4 Q. [No translation]

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, we're getting no interpretation.

6 THE INTERPRETER: English. Can you hear the English?

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now I can hear you, but the answer was not

8 translated. I think the witness referred to something on television.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness -- yes, I apologise?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat what he said, please?

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to interpret what the witness said

13 about television?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer, please.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you repeat the comment you made a little

16 earlier about television, Mr. Witness? Maybe you can repeat the question,

17 Mr. Milovancevic, if you could remember it.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, there was -- there's -- a problem arose with the

20 transcript, so I have to repeat the question, and I asked you this: I

21 asked you whether you heard about the decision of Slovenia and Croatia to

22 secede, and your answer was what? Would you repeat it for the Trial

23 Chamber? When did you hear about that and how did you come to hear of it?

24 A. Well, I only know about it from television.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 2124

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The news on television.

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps this would

3 be an opportune moment to adjourn.

4 (redacted)

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24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

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24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Friday, the 10th day

Page 2128

1 of March 2006, at 2.15 p.m.