Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2129

1 Friday, 10 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.44 p.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are put under greater pressure by circumstances

6 beyond our control. Before -- before you start, Mr. Milovancevic, can I

7 ask you, Mr. Milovancevic, the Prosecution filed a motion for protective

8 measures for two 92 bis witnesses who are supposed to come in for

9 cross-examination. It seems as if the time during which you should have

10 responded has passed. Do you intend responding, or have I asked this

11 question before?

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I've understood

13 the situation correctly and what we're discussing now, that was the

14 proposal for protective measures that was handed in to us the day before

15 yesterday during the afternoon session, and that being the case, we're

16 faced with the case where in preparing for the cross-examination we have

17 to state our views within a very short deadline, whereas the natural,

18 normal deadline is 14 or 15 days, a fortnight. But for the Trial Chamber

19 we can do so in the course of the day at one of recesses, one of the

20 breaks, we can hand in our views in writing.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic, and I think

22 we actually should have gone into private session for purposes of that

23 discussion, but that doesn't matter. We will be hearing from the Defence.

24 You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic, with the witness, but before you do so,

25 as I said to you the other day, sir, I said I'll call you Mr. 03 simply

Page 2130

1 because of the protective measures in place. It doesn't mean -- I don't

2 mean to be disrespectful. Let me remind you once again that you still are

3 bound by the declaration that you took at the beginning of your testimony

4 to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth. Is

5 that okay? You understand in.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 Mr. Milovancevic.

9 WITNESS: WITNESS MM-003 [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic: [Continued]

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

13 should like the registrar to have the witness handed a copy of his

14 statement. If it is the Prosecutor who has that copy, I would be grateful

15 to him if he could provide it because, as I said yesterday, I have the

16 unredacted or, rather, the redacted version.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: With marking.

18 MR. WHITING: I have a copy with just a few coffee stains on the

19 front, but I think it's fine.

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, my learned

21 colleague.

22 Q. Witness, I'm going to remind you just briefly once again before we

23 start of the quite obvious need of making pauses between question and

24 answer for the benefit of the interpreters. Thank you.

25 When we discussed the financing of the work of the police in

Page 2131

1 Krajina, and you mention that in several of the paragraphs of your

2 statement, did you in paragraph 24, for example, of your statement, say

3 the following: That you never really were paid a salary, but if you

4 needed money you would go to Milan Zarac of the SDS and he would give you

5 what you needed. "I would also receive money from some of the politicians

6 who I drove. They would also give me money." Is that what you said?

7 A. Yes, I did make that statement, but may I explain? This statement

8 referred to the beginning, from the barricades and some --

9 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry to interrupt. I just wonder if we could

10 go into private session because of the nature of the question. I don't

11 think we need a redaction, but I think it if we go into private session it

12 would be prudent.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we please move into private session.

14 [Private session]

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Page 2132

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19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. The question was as follows: It had to do with your statement

24 work you said that the money that came to Krajina was in cash and that as

25 far as you knew there was nothing written down about it and that there was

Page 2133

1 all done in personal contact or phone contacts between Martic and

2 Stanisic. Is that what you said, Witness?

3 A. I apologise, but could you repeat that question? It's rather a

4 long question, and I'm not sure I understood it all. What was the

5 context? You said that I knew nothing --

6 Q. Did you say that the money came in cash, that there was nothing in

7 writing, and that it was based on personal contacts that this money

8 arrived? Is that what you said and was that how it was?

9 A. Yes, that is what I said.

10 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 40 of your statement, you say the

11 following, that the training camp in Golubic was started in mid-March

12 1991, that your salary for November 1990 through January 1991 was less

13 than 100 Deutschmarks, that you received it in cash, that you never signed

14 for it, and that you don't think there were any records kept of these

15 payments. Is that right, Witness?

16 A. Yes, that is right. But may I just add and clear this point up?

17 As I said a moment ago, as I received financial assistance it was a

18 salary, but I received the money, and that's how I received clothing and

19 footwear and food. So when I say -- use the term "salary," I don't mean a

20 pure salary so that the Trial Chamber can understand me. It wasn't a

21 regular salary coming in as one would normally expect.

22 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 59 of your statement, and that is on page

23 12, as far as I can see, of the B/C/S, you said that in at least two

24 situations, two separate occasions, you saw the chiefs of police, and you

25 describe them as such, and you mention them in the previous paragraph

Page 2134

1 coming to Knin for their salaries. You say that, "I saw Martic open up a

2 safe and hand cash to the chiefs to pay their men. As the number of

3 police officers grew, Martic appointed Zelenbaba to handle the payment of

4 the salaries." Is that how your statement reads?

5 A. My statement was like that, but I don't want you to misinterpret

6 this once again, because, as I say, at that time when I mentioned

7 Zelenbaba, I'd like to clarify two points. Martic had a safe with money

8 in his office. Zelenbaba also had a safe with money in his office, and

9 that's the context I was mentioning Zelenbaba in. And those chiefs

10 received at least two, maybe more, I can't say exactly how many, or,

11 rather, how many times I saw this hand-over and takeover of money.

12 Q. Thank you. Now in paragraph 66, you said that Martic would often

13 say, "There's no more money, so I have to go to Belgrade and get some. He

14 was very open about this fact," you say. Whereas in paragraph 69, you say

15 that "Nikola Rastovic was the person that Martic had in charge of

16 finances. He would tell me that the chef or boss had to call Belgrade

17 because there was not enough money left to pay our dues."

18 Is that what you said, Witness?

19 A. Yes, that is correct. And if I might be allowed to explain. As

20 time passed or, rather, in a very short space of time he had a contact

21 with Milenko Zelenbaba, the chief. Now, what happened is large quantities

22 according to what Martic said, Milenko Zelenbaba as the chief spent an

23 excessive amount of money. He opened a boutique, and he started living a

24 rich lifestyle. And Nikola Manovic helped afterwards.

25 Now, for this to be stopped, Nikola Rastovic was introduced later

Page 2135

1 on because Nikola Rastovic wasn't able to approach any of these thins

2 because he wasn't the original signatory of a petition in 1990. So when I

3 said this, I meant that when he went to Belgrade frequently, he thought

4 that the job that he thought would be done would actually be done.

5 Q. Witness, all I asked you was this: Did you say that Martic put

6 Nikola Rastovic in charge of finances, and did this man Rastovic work with

7 the finances? That's what I want to know.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The Prosecutor showed you a document which was a list of active

10 workers in the centre in the month of June, the centre in Golubic. Do you

11 remember that particular document?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember that you were sheen document, 0280-4472, which was

14 an attachment to this list of active workers which contained the salary

15 list of the employees in that school centre of Golubic? Do you know about

16 that that document? Do you remember seeing it? And it was 244, Exhibit

17 244. Do you remember that?

18 A. If that was the document shown me yesterday --

19 Q. Yes, it is.

20 A. -- then I do.

21 Q. Now, after that document, the one we've just talked about, there's

22 a list of employees, a salary list, of the joint services. That was also

23 a document that the Prosecutor showed you and that we have here in the

24 possession of the Prosecutor. Did you take a look at that document? Do

25 you know of its existence?

Page 2136

1 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm not even able to follow what

2 document he's talking about let alone the witness. Maybe he could just

3 show the witness the document if he's going to ask questions about it.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think that would be helpful, Mr. Milovancevic,

5 because otherwise I can't even -- I don't know which document you're

6 talking about.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I suggest document

8 244 be placed on the ELMO. It is under seal. Exhibit 244.

9 MR. WHITING: I think we have to go into private session to do

10 that if it's under seal, otherwise it will show up on the monitor.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. May the Chamber please move into private

12 session.

13 [Private session]

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Page 2144

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15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation].

19 Q. Witness, in your written statement and here as well before the

20 Court, you stated that Martic called Stanisic "my brother," and that he

21 fully trusted them; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In your written statement, in paragraph 22, you stated that Martic

24 made Orlovic in charge of the local DB and that Martic said that Orlic was

25 supported by Stanisic for this DB position. Is that not what it says in

Page 2145

1 your statement?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In your statement, in paragraph 39, your statement to the Office

4 of the Prosecutor, paragraph 39 which is on page 8 of your statement, did

5 you not state that you heard from Martic that Stanisic was very involved

6 in controlling him and Babic as well, and that he said to you that he

7 found Babic in Stanisic's office and that he had to wait outside while

8 Stanisic was talking to Babic? Is that contained in your statement?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Yesterday, I asked you about what you said in paragraph 48 in

11 terms of Martic being very angry with Frenki because he was flaunting all

12 the money he had, and that Martic was angry because the population did not

13 have enough food and fuel, and he had not received the financial

14 assistance promised him, and Frenki was behaving the way he was behaving.

15 A. Yes.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the end of the

17 witness's answer because Mr. Milovancevic was overlapping again.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. In paragraph 49 --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, the interpreter didn't hear what

21 you said because you spoke at the same time as the witness. Now, could

22 you repeat what you said a little bit earlier before you asked this last

23 question.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they did not hear the

25 witness's answer beyond yes.

Page 2146

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you said you didn't hear what Mr. Milovancevic

2 said --

3 THE INTERPRETER: No, Mr. Milovancevic was speaking at the same

4 time when the witness was speaking. That's why we couldn't hear the

5 witness.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Unless the question is put again, then I don't know

7 how the witness can repeat that answer. I don't know at what stage we

8 were. So you probably haven't got the full answer, Mr. Milovancevic, on

9 that point.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I reminded the

11 witness of part of his statement yesterday when he talked about Martic

12 being angry with Frenki, and as far as I understood the witness, he

13 confirmed today that is the way he explained it yesterday. When the

14 witness tried to go on, I asked him to stop because he had spoken about it

15 yesterday, so that we could continue because our time is so short, and

16 that is probably where the interpreters did not understand us because we

17 were speaking at the same time, because I interrupted the witness. I

18 apologise to the interpreters, but they should give me a signal.

19 Thank you.

20 Q. Witness, in paragraph 49 of your statement, did you not say that

21 Martic appointed Dusan Orlovic head of the state security of the SAO

22 Krajina and that Martic did not want reports to be sent to the state

23 security in Belgrade, and in July he asked Stanisic to withdraw Frenki

24 from the camp in Krajina. Is that what you stated?

25 A. I really stated that, but it is necessary, I think, that I owe an

Page 2147

1 important explanation. Everything I stated here is correct. These things

2 were happening. That is absolutely true. These are developments as they

3 were.

4 Q. Witness, let us just not talk at the same time?

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's not talk at the same time.

6 Witness, can you explain what you wanted to explain, please? You

7 said this thing needs to be explain. Explain.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will try to be as fast as

9 possible. When the time came, when those units in Golubic in 1991 had

10 already been trained, Frenki had already become friends with people that

11 Martic was suspicious about. They went around taverns and restaurants,

12 and people were on the verge of famine. That's why he was asking for

13 this. When I said Orlovic, he was actually the extended arm of Martic for

14 collecting information. That's the second point I wish to make.

15 The third point, in 1992, towards the end, Martic literally

16 ordered arrests so there were these tensions between Martic and Belgrade,

17 Babic and Belgrade, Babic and Martic. Thank you.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation].

19 Q. Thank you, Witness. The reason why I was trying to interrupt your

20 answer was my attempt to guide your cross-examination. You should not

21 dictate my questions.

22 My next question was in relation to paragraph 52. Did you not

23 say, "In early 1992, Martic ordered Frenki, Captain Dragan, Zoran Rajic,

24 Goran Starcevic, and Dusan Orlovic arrested. All these people worked

25 directly for Frenki and were members of the state security service.

Page 2148

1 Martic thought that these police chiefs were under the control of

2 Belgrade, not his." That's what you were explaining a few moments ago?

3 A. I have to add something here. There is a mistake here. It says

4 chiefs. That has nothing to do in the context in which I stated this. I

5 stated this about the arrests. This is probably a technical error, about

6 the chiefs of police.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, what is Frenki's surname again, if I could

9 just be reminded?

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Can you give us the family name of this man whose nicknames is

12 Frenki?

13 A. I believe his family name is Simatovic, as far as I know.

14 Q. In paragraph 56, did you state that Martic tried to arrest Frenki,

15 Captain, and others? When did he try to do that? When did he try to

16 arrest Frenki, Captain, and others and he dissolved the state security in

17 Republika Srpska Krajina?

18 A. In June and July 1992, Martic started removing local officers of

19 the SDB.

20 Q. Is that what is stated in your statement?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If it is true what you are saying that Martic appointed Orlovic to

23 his position in cooperation with Stanisic, why would he arrest him in

24 1992? Can you explain that?

25 A. I can explain briefly. For this will very same reason. Martic in

Page 2149

1 his relation to Belgrade, Martic-Stanisic, Martic-Babic, whatever happened

2 with -- between them was forwarded -- what was happening? Why did he

3 order arrests? Because he had hundred per cent sure information that they

4 did not send and that they were not subjected to him by the -- as Minister

5 of the Interior but they sent information to Belgrade. At that time there

6 were a lot of problems in Korenica where they were stationed, where they

7 were billeted.

8 Q. Thank you very much, Witness, you've explained well enough. Let's

9 move on to another topic and I hope we're still in open session, if I

10 remember well. Thank you.

11 When we are talking about Golubic, when you are talking about

12 Golubic, Witness, and what was happening in that centre for training, on a

13 number of places in your written statement and in your testimony here, you

14 are using the term "the camp in Golubic." For example, just to illustrate

15 this, you do it in paragraph 34, 35, 36, 38, 40, 41, 42, 46, 49, 50 of

16 your statement. In a number of paragraphs you call this institution "the

17 camp in Golubici." My question to you is as follows: Was this a training

18 centre for the training of the police officer? Was this a training camp?

19 A. I apologise. "A camp" is the term that remained from the previous

20 function of the camp in Golubic. This is where the youth from all of

21 Yugoslavia gathered and rallied, and that's why I'm using this term

22 "camp." It was not my intention to give it some sort of a different

23 association. This is a term that I still remember from my youth.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Would it be correct, then, when I ask you

25 and when I say that this institution was a training centre? Would that be

Page 2150

1 correct? Because this is what can be found in the documents that were

2 presented to you by the Prosecution. Is that correct?

3 A. Look, I can say just briefly. From 1991 it was the centre for

4 training of special units called Knindzas controlled by Captain Dragan and

5 Frenki's unit, and after 1992 it was under the patronage of the MUP

6 Serbia, and it got this new name, the "School Centre" or the "Training

7 Centre in Golubic for the Police of Srpska Krajina," as far as I know.

8 Q. When the Prosecutor examined you, did he ask you about two

9 documents in which your name is mentioned and which also speak about the

10 school centre in Golubic? One spoke about the lack of shortage of water

11 and the other about some shooting. Do you remember these two documents?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I asked you whether you remembered these documents because in

14 their heading it says, "The Ministry of the Interior of Krajina," and

15 underneath that it says the school centre in Golubic on the 17th of

16 August. This name, this title, the school centre in Golubic, would that

17 be the correct name of that institution in Golubic?

18 A. I'm not sure. I really don't know whether it was a school centre.

19 For me it was Golubic, a police in Golubic, and that was what it remained.

20 Q. Can we show on the monitor document 0280-8643, just briefly, and

21 then we will --

22 MR. WHITING: If we could go into private session for that.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] This is Exhibit 245.

25 [Private session]

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Page 2152

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19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness, and now we are going to dwell upon some other issues

24 independently of what we have spoken about so far. Have you heard of the

25 illegal arming of the Croatian police, and did you hear about the film

Page 2153

1 featuring Spegelj that was shown in January 1991? Do you remember that?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Are you aware of the session of the Presidency of Yugoslavia which

4 took place in mid-March 1991 at which it was decided to introduce

5 extraordinary conditions, but there was not done, this was not

6 implemented?

7 A. I don't remember the session, but I know what you're talking

8 about.

9 Q. In order to avoid any misunderstandings, you are aware that

10 something like this happened at the time. Is that what you've just told

11 me?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Are you aware of the fact that in Slovenia there was fighting

14 between the JNA and the armed forces of Slovenia after Slovenia and

15 Croatia proclaimed their secession from Yugoslavia in June 1991?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know that pursuant to a decision of the Presidency of

18 Yugoslavia the -- there was a temporary withdrawal of the JNA from

19 Slovenia after -- after that fighting, very soon after that fighting, also

20 in 1991?

21 A. I know that the JNA withdrew, but I don't know when, after how

22 much time.

23 Q. Do you know anything about -- about the Brioni moratorium which

24 was mediated by the European Community and that was at the beginning of

25 April -- June 1991 and had to do with the decisions of Croatia and

Page 2154

1 Slovenia on secession? Do you know anything about that?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Are you familiar with the blockade of barracks and garrisons in

4 Croatia, the barracks and the garrisons of JNA after the secession of

5 Croatia?

6 A. Yes, I know about that from TV and from stories that I heard.

7 Q. Those barracks and garrisons in Croatia, were they also attacked

8 by the Croatian armed forces? They were also taken by force, weren't

9 they?

10 A. I repeat, I only saw things on TV, and I read about them in

11 newspapers, and based on that I can say yes.

12 Q. Do you personally know anything about the fact that the JNA in

13 September 1991 launched an operation to lift the blockade of the barracks

14 and to move the equipment and that was all in the territory of the then

15 Republic of Croatia?

16 A. I know that this happened, that the operation started. I don't

17 know exactly when that was.

18 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that the 9th Corps of the JNA

19 launched an operation to lift the blockade from all the garrisons from

20 Split to Knin? Are you aware of that? And that was in September 1991.

21 A. No. I know what happened. I don't know which garrisons were

22 involved in that. I know something happened, but I don't know what

23 exactly.

24 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that in October 1991 there was a

25 conference on Yugoslavia on the peaceful solution to the Yugoslav crisis

Page 2155

1 in 1991? Did you hear Lord Carrington and what he did at the time?

2 A. Yes, I heard of Lord Carrington.

3 Q. And one more question before the break, very briefly. Did you

4 hear of the Geneva agreement between the JNA, Tudjman, Milosevic, and the

5 Presidency of Lord Vance in 1991?

6 A. I'm not familiar with the name Geneva agreement. I know about the

7 Vance-Owen plan. I'm familiar with that.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to your

10 instruction, I believe that this is the time for -- for our first break.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic. Shall we

12 take a break and come back at 4.00. Court adjourned.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Witness, you talked about the events in Skabrnja and explained

18 that the object of the operation in Skabrnja was to cleanse the Croatian

19 population. Is that what you said?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you take part in that action in Skabrnja?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know how long the clash in Skabrnja lasted?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you know that on the first day prior to entry into Skabrnja

Page 2156

1 village a JNA unit arrived with tanks and that a JNA colonel got out of

2 the tank and called upon the Croatian side to surrender and that he was

3 hit and killed by a sniper? Do you know about that event?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know another detail, that this shot JNA officer, that

6 another soldier from another armoured vehicle rushed up to help the

7 Colonel but that he was killed by sniper fire too?

8 A. No. This is the first time I hear of such a thing.

9 Q. Do you know that it was only after the second incident that both

10 sides opened fire? I assume you don't know that either.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know that on the first day in Skabrnja, on the Croatian

13 side, 15 armed members of the armed forces were killed and that seven were

14 taken prisoner, and that on the Yugoslav People's Army side two soldiers

15 were killed and five wounded?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know that on that first day the Yugoslav People's Army in

18 Skabrnja seized seven mortars found on the Croatian side among their armed

19 forces?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know that during the night the operation was interrupted

22 and continued the following day when, on the Yugoslav People's Army side

23 two soldiers were killed and five soldiers wounded?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you know that on that second day, on the Croatian side, a Kurd

Page 2157

1 was killed and seven taken prisoner and that seven mortars were also

2 seized and 35 hand grenades, one recoilless gun, seven boxes of ammunition

3 of the 7.2-millimetre type -- 7.62-millimetre type and some rifles?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know that all those facts and figures are to be found in an

6 official document seized by JNA officers and that the document is in the

7 Prosecution's possession?

8 A. No.

9 Q. If you don't know about these details, then on what grounds do you

10 claim what the object of the operation in Skabrnja was? Is it only on the

11 basis of one sentence allegedly uttered by Martic several months after the

12 event?

13 A. All I can say is this in explanation: It wasn't once that

14 Skabrnja was mentioned. Skabrnja was mentioned or became a catchword, and

15 most of the credit went to the people of Benkovci because it was on

16 Benkovac territory. Before that they couldn't have coordinated that. And

17 the credit was given to the people who were at a training course, special

18 training course.

19 Q. Do you know that there are witnesses who said that Goran Opacic

20 was present in Skabrnja only at the beginning of the first day, and do you

21 know that that man, Goran Opacic, beat and injured the then Prime Minister

22 Goran Babic in 1992. Milan Babic. I misspoke. I'm sorry, I meant to say

23 Milan Babic.

24 A. This is the answer to your question as I already said. I did not

25 say that Goran Opacic was in Skabrnja. What I said was that Martic said

Page 2158

1 that the crazy Goran Opacic, because that's what they referred to him as,

2 they called him crazy, and his brothers did a good job because Boskic

3 Drazic was there too.

4 Now, as to the second part ever your question, this is the first

5 time that I hear that Goran Opacic beat up Dr. Milan Babic.

6 Q. Could you think that even had he uttered a sentence like that, if

7 Martic had uttered a sentence like that could have been and comment to

8 that very fierce clash between the Croatian and JNA side and when the

9 Croatian side was routed with a lot of casualties on both sides?

10 A. I'm telling you what I know. I didn't give much thought to what

11 this could result in.

12 Q. When you spoke about Saborsko, your comments won't to one of

13 Martic's sentences again, and now my question to you is this: Do you know

14 that the commander of 5th Military District of the Yugoslav People's Army,

15 General Zivota Avramovic, lieutenant colonel general, decided -- made the

16 decision to attack Saborsko in October 1991 to lift the siege of the

17 barracks in Licka Sinj and the Poligon at Slunj, the training centre at

18 Slunj?

19 A. No.

20 Q. What about the order by the 1th JNA commander of the 7th of

21 November, 1991, for an attack on Skabrnja to the commander of the 2nd

22 Tactical Group and it was sent to Cedomir Bulat who is deceased?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know that in the action at Saborsko about 700 soldiers took

25 part under the command of the JNA?

Page 2159

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know that in the operation at Saborsko the air force was

3 used, and after air force preparations that the artillery went into play

4 including tanks and that after fierce fighting, brief but fierce fighting,

5 that the company defending Saborsko was vanquished? Do you know about

6 that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know whether near Saborsko there was a large JNA training

9 centre called Slunj?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you know at Slunj was the forward command post of the 5th

12 Military District, that is to say a very important JNA institution?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know that in Licka Jasenica there was a large storehouse of

15 fuel, fuel depot belonging to the JNA?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know that Licka Jasenica had very few soldiers as a JNA

18 garrison and that they were attacked by Croatian forces from around

19 Saborsko?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know that in the order for attack on Saborsko the number of

22 people was precisely stated that defended Saborsko and the surrounding

23 villages and that there were about 400 heavily armed people on the

24 Croatian side, soldiers on the Croatian side?

25 A. No.

Page 2160

1 Q. Do you know that in Saborsko during that period, just before the

2 conflict, there was a Special Police Unit from Duga Resa, a Croatian

3 police unit, and that it left Saborsko and that will all the women and

4 children were evacuated from Saborsko the day before?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know that the Croatian police station in Saborsko received

7 reinforcements in the form of special forces from Ogulin, a platoon of

8 special forces, in fact?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know that in the second half of September in Saborsko a

11 group of 150 men arrived who were natives of Saborsko living outside

12 Saborsko in order to assist the crew and the people in the village?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know that during the fighting for Saborsko, two more

15 reinforcements joined the Croatian forces?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You said that some Red Berets near Korenica attacked Saborsko

18 with the army and took control of it. Is that right? Is that what you

19 said?

20 A. I said that the Red Berets who belonged to Frenki took part in the

21 operation at Saborsko, to the best of my knowledge.

22 Q. Did you say that Saborsko was attacked because it was a Croatian

23 village, and that as a Croatian village it got in the way and that that's

24 why it was attacked?

25 A. I said that it was this connection that got in the way, that it

Page 2161

1 was an obstacle. I do apologise. How shall I say this? Because Plaski

2 was somewhere in the rear, that in order -- they wanted to have a Serb

3 territorial entity there.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, do you know that the accused Milan

5 Martic, up until 1990, for a full 16 years lived in Knin in the apartment

6 owned by a Croat named Tonce Berbic [phoen]? Do you know about that?

7 A. I don't know how long he lived there, but was in an apartment

8 owned by a Croat, yes.

9 Q. Do you know that he had very good relations with that man, that he

10 was on excellent terms and that the man liked Martic's children very much,

11 and that when he died, when the man died in the second half of 1990, at

12 the request of the family Martic took part in the funeral ceremony and

13 took the coffin to Knin together with the man's sons? Do you know about

14 that detail?

15 A. No, but I'd just like to clear one point up. On several

16 occasions, or maybe ten times, I slept in that house, but I never saw the

17 actual proprietor of the residence, and I know nothing about the funeral,

18 of course.

19 Q. Do you know that Martic, throughout the conflict in Krajina from

20 1991 to 1995, with his wife went to the grave site of that man Prpic

21 [phoen] who had died because they were very close? Did you have and

22 opportunity to hear about that? Did you see a situation like that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know that the brother of Martic's mother and the brother of

25 Martic's father were married to Croatian ladies?

Page 2162

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you really believe what you're testifying about here under oath

3 at this Tribunal, that Martic uttered those words, "they killed all the

4 Croats," and that he would celebrate because of that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You mentioned that you were in Kijevo a day after the conflict.

7 Is that right, Witness?

8 A. No, not the day after the conflict, the day of the conflict.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, might we go into

10 private session now, please.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber move into private session.

12 [Private session]

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Page 2163











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Page 2164

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25 [Open session]

Page 2165

1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, you mentioned a helicopter, MI8, a transport helicopter

5 that landed in Golubic. You said it was loaded with stolen goods. Is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. According to the information the Defence has, this is quite

9 incorrect. I'm asking you is it not the only time when a helicopter

10 landed in Knin was when the members of the police who were fighting at the

11 corridor and who were wounded and killed were transported on that

12 helicopter?

13 A. Could you please repeat your question? I don't understand.

14 Q. Is it the only time when a helicopter MI8 landed in Knin was

15 when the casualties from the fighting for the corridor were being

16 transported?

17 A. No. And may I just say one more thing? In Golubic there was

18 never a single injured person or wounded person or dead person who was

19 brought in, any dead or injured member of the police.

20 Q. That's your knowledge, Witness?

21 A. That's my knowledge. And as far as this MI8 helicopter is

22 concerned, I personally was present when they were being unloaded, these

23 things. I wasn't involved in the unloading but I was there.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness. You said that the election campaign of

25 Mr. Martic called -- cost 300.000 Austrian schillings or 450.000

Page 2166

1 Deutschmark. Is that what you said?

2 A. Yes. I said that it was 450.000-Deutschmark worth.

3 Q. Do you know that 300.000 schillings is about 45.000 Deutschmark

4 was the ratio was 7 to 1, 7 schillings to a Deutschmark? That is an

5 elementary fact, a basic fact?

6 A. I don't know if I said 300.000 schillings. I said what the

7 currency was. I said that the currency there were schillings, but I got

8 1.000 schillings that night. And perhaps 20 or 30 men around him who were

9 there at the time. When I changed that money in the bank, those

10 schillings were worth 1.400 Deutschmark.

11 Q. Witness, I don't know how many Deutschmark or schillings you

12 changed in the bank, but in your written statement to the Prosecution you

13 said that Martic got 300.000 schillings for his campaign, and now you're

14 saying it's 450.000 Deutschmark. Now, what is correct? One or the

15 other? Or is 450.000 Deutschmark your own calculation of those schillings

16 into marks?

17 A. It's schillings calculated into marks, 450.000 marks.

18 Q. In paragraph 53 of your statement, your written statement to the

19 Office of the Prosecutor, you said quite literally that Martic's

20 presidential campaign in 1993 was financed by Stanisic with cash and that

21 Martic received 300.000 Austrian schillings from Stanisic. Is that what

22 you stated?

23 A. According to this here, yes.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness. You said that you knew Martic's apartment

25 where he lived in Knin. Since Martic was in Knin for a long time and many

Page 2167

1 people had occasion to visit him, can you tell us how big the apartment

2 was in terms of its structure and number of square metres?

3 A. The apartment was on the top floor of a building. I think -- I

4 don't know. Say, maybe 50 square metres. I think it was about 50 square

5 metres, to be as brief as possible. When you enter the apartment, on the

6 right-hand side there's about 50 square metres, and then on the left-hand

7 side after they moved in they added something, and that's about 30 square

8 metres.

9 Q. Thank you, Witness. Do you know whether Mr. Martic was with his

10 family in that apartment all the time, 50 square metres, and then the

11 additional 30? Was he there all the time, from 1991 to 1995?

12 A. No. Well -- oh, I'm sorry. I don't know exactly when he moved

13 in, if you're saying 1991.

14 Q. Witness, lest there be any misunderstanding, I didn't want to trap

15 you in any way or to give you an inaccurate date in terms of when he moved

16 into the apartment. From the moment that he moved into the apartment and

17 all the way up to Operation Flash and Storm was Martic with his family in

18 that apartment?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. You said that after he was elected president of the

21 Republic of Serb Krajina Martic got a villa in Belgrade. Do you know that

22 this was the official residence of the president of the republic of the

23 Serb Krajina in Belgrade, which was intended for ceremonial use?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know that that residence was near a big football stadium in

Page 2168

1 Belgrade, the one belonging to the Red Star football club?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know that that football stadium is certainly two or three

4 kilometres away from the residence of the then president of Yugoslavia,

5 Milosevic?

6 A. Well, yes.

7 Q. Do you know that in Belgrade there is no underground, no tube, no

8 metro?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So what kind of tunnel were you talking about between Martic's

11 residence and Milosevic's residence in Belgrade? In your written

12 statement you speak of this underground tunnel linking up the two

13 residences.

14 A. This is the first I've heard of it. I'm sorry.

15 Q. In paragraph 70 of your statement at least two or three times --

16 in paragraph 70 the last but one sentence, "When Martic was elected the

17 president of the RSK, he was given the use of a home --" I do apologise to

18 the interpreters, I'm moving very fast. And I apologise to the Trial

19 Chamber.

20 "When Martic was elected the president of RSK, he was given the

21 use of a home in the diplomatic area of Belgrade. He had his own staff

22 there and his security guards told me that he would go from this residence

23 directly to Milosevic's residence."

24 Is that what you stated, Witness?

25 A. From that residence, if I understand things right, yes, he went

Page 2169

1 directly to Milosevic's residence. Let me just explain. When I said he

2 went directly, I didn't mean it was through a tunnel or something like

3 that. When he would be asked by him to come, we go to see him. In a way

4 they were neighbours, because it's the neighbourhood of Dedinje.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness. In your statement, you talked about painting

6 JNA vehicles and changing uniforms at the time of the implementation of

7 the Vance Plan. Is that right, Witness?

8 A. Yes. Well -- well, I don't remember exactly what this Vance Plan

9 was. Was that the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's Army? Was that it?

10 Well, then yes.

11 Q. Let us just make a brief pause. When I'm talking about the Vance

12 Plan I mean the peace operations and the arrival of UNPROFOR in

13 Yugoslavia. That's what I'm referring to.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know that all the weapons of the Territorial Defence of the

16 Krajina were placed under double key. The UN took the artillery, the --

17 the APCs and combat vehicles.

18 A. My answer to this question is that was just a farce.

19 Q. Do you know that in this regard there is a written report to

20 the -- of the Secretary-General of the UN to the Security Council that the

21 weapons are placed under double key and that there is even a written

22 report that after Maslenica, the Croatian operation of Maslenica in

23 January 1993, these weapons were taken from the Serb side do you know

24 about that?

25 A. I know only that the surplus weapons that were placed in these

Page 2170

1 depots -- well, that lots and lots of weapons were hidden in villages and

2 hills all over the place.

3 Q. Are you trying to tell us that tanks, artillery, and armoured

4 vehicles were hidden in villages and other locations and that UNPROFOR

5 didn't manage to find that in five years' time?

6 A. I'm trying to say that mortars, some of the cannons, some of the

7 artillery, infantry weapons, shells, equipment, rockets, Orkan, and all

8 sorts of artillery pieces I don't even know of, a lot of them were

9 outside.

10 Q. What you're saying is contrary to the reports of the

11 Secretary-General that were done in writing, but then you say that you

12 know that. Do you know anything about how long the actions of the Croat

13 army went on during Operation Flash in 1995, in May 1995?

14 A. I don't know exactly how long. The next morning we were in

15 Gradiska.

16 Q. What does this mean, "next morning," Witness?

17 A. The day -- or, rather, the night after, since Western Slavonia was

18 attacked and all Serbs went to Bosanska Gradiska out there, (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Isn't that something to be redacted?

21 MR. WHITING: I think so, yes, Your Honour.

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: May that last sentence on line 15 of page 42 please

24 be redacted. Thank you.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 2171

1 Q. Do you know that there is a report of the United Nations, of the

2 civilian police of the United Nations, and members of UNPROFOR that state

3 that the Croat forces massacred columns of Serb refugees as they were

4 leaving under duress and fighting when they were leaving Western Slavonia?

5 Do you know anything about that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you know from the first half of May 1995 that there are

8 UNPROFOR reports from that period that hundreds of new freshly dug graves

9 were found of Serb civilians who were killed in Operation Flash?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you know that there are reports of UNPROFOR about that, that

12 Croat troops massacred and slaughtered seriously wounded Serb soldiers and

13 civilians and that they even slaughtered the nurses that were taking care

14 of them? Do you know anything about that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you know anything about UNPROFOR reports that under the

17 patronage of Mr. Akashi negotiations took place between Lieutenant Colonel

18 what are Ram Basic who led 1.500 armed Serb soldiers and protected 17 or

19 18 Serb villages with the representatives with the Croat government, and

20 the agreement was that they hand over their weapons, that the Serbs hand

21 over their weapons to the United Nations, and that the Croat forces broke

22 that agreement and used artillery and multiple-rocket launchers to fire at

23 the forest where the Serb civilians were? Do you know anything about

24 that?

25 A. No.

Page 2172

1 Q. Where were you at the time of Storm? When did Storm take place?

2 A. August 1995.

3 Q. Am I wrong if I say that Storm started in the early morning hours

4 of the 4th of August, 1995? And I'm asking you quite directly whether you

5 were in Knin at the time.

6 A. Yes, I was that morning. I was in Knin that morning.

7 Q. Witness, do you remember whether Croatian artillery forces were

8 opening heavy artillery fire on the entire area of Knin on that day?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So they -- were they firing at civilian, urban areas, residential

11 buildings, everything?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you have any knowledge about them firing heavy artillery fire

14 at all other settlements in the Krajina too?

15 A. As far as we could hear then when we gathered together after

16 leaving Knin, people were talking about it more and more. At that moment

17 we didn't know.

18 Q. Do you know that during Operation Flash in May 1995 the entire

19 Serb population of Western Slavonia was expelled and that out of 22.000

20 Serbs living there barely 800 were left?

21 A. I know that the entire population from Western Slavonia was

22 expelled.

23 Q. Do you know that due to Operation Storm in which tens of thousands

24 of Serb civilians were expelled and their total property, their homes,

25 their houses, that all their businesses were destroyed, do you know that

Page 2173

1 the perpetrators were indicted for that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know anything about the Miljacki plateau operation in June

4 1992?

5 A. Miljevacki plateau is about 35 kilometres to the south of Knin,

6 and Croat forces attacked Serb positions there. I can't remember exactly

7 but there were 40-something casualties, about 50 dead.

8 Q. That was the time when the Blue Helmets were arriving in the area,

9 the UN forces; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. These killed Serbs, were they thrown into a pit? Do you know

12 whether these people who were killed at the Miljevacki plateau were thrown

13 into a pit?

14 A. People were saying that they had been thrown into a pit.

15 Q. Have you perhaps heard of the report of the European Monitors that

16 they were present when the bodies were taken out of the pit, that there is

17 an official record written by foreign observers?

18 A. No. I did not have the opportunity to read that.

19 Q. Do you know anything about the operation called Maslenica? That

20 was the 21st of January, 1993. And where was it conducted, and who

21 attacked who?

22 A. Maslenica was conducted, well, Obrovac was the last Serb

23 settlement, and then when you go towards Benkovac Maslenica was attacked

24 from the right-hand side by the Croat forces attacking the Serb positions.

25 Q. Do you know that in Ravni Kotori all Serb villages were destroyed,

Page 2174

1 all of those where the Croat troops passed and that the surviving

2 population had to flee?

3 A. Yes. There were a great many refugees in Knin then.

4 Q. Do you know that there was a problem with the Croat population in

5 Knin and that they were expelling these refugees from their homes?

6 A. Well, Serb refugees were expelling Croat people from their homes,

7 yes.

8 Q. Do you know that there is a report of the civilian police of the

9 UN from that period, from February, in which it is stated that these

10 expelled Croats were found in a school under the protection of the Serb

11 police, and that the Serb police said that they would take all measures

12 that are needed to get these people back to their homes, and that they

13 asked to the Croat side? Do you know anything about that in greater

14 detail?

15 A. Yes, but let me just explain this a bit further. At that moment

16 that your question refers to, they did not come to this house of their own

17 free will. They were picked up for safety and security reasons so that

18 they would not be harmed by the people there, the Serb refugees. They

19 were taken from their homes in order to be under control and in order to

20 survive.

21 Q. Thank you, Witness. What you have just told us, does it mean that

22 these people who were victims of Maslenica operation and who were

23 refugees, did they arrive in Knin? Were they cross? Were they angered,

24 and they were in a position to jeopardise the local population and that

25 the police of SAO Krajina did everything in possible in order to protect

Page 2175

1 the Croatian population in the way you've described? Is that that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the Croatian population of Knin in

4 1996 wrote an appeal to the Serb population asking them to return and that

5 one of them took that appeal to Zagreb to hand it over to the parliament

6 there and that he was beaten heavily there because of that request? Do

7 you know anything about that?

8 A. No.

9 Q. In paragraph 1 of the statement given by you to the OTP, you said

10 that you had tried to obtain political asylum, but --

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I believe this is the time to

12 go into private session, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

14 [Private session]

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23 [Open session]

24 MR. WHITING: Okay.

25 Re-examination by Mr. Whiting:

Page 2189

1 Q. Witness, I just have a very few questions to ask you about your

2 testimony. Now, you testified about how Milan Martic talked about what

3 happened in Saborsko and in Skabrnja, and today in cross-examination you

4 confirmed again what it was that he said about those places and what had

5 happened there. My question is: Did he -- can you tell us how he talked

6 about Saborsko and Skabrnja and what happened there? Did he talk about it

7 with pride, with sorrow, in some other way?

8 A. When he talked about that, he talked about it pride, as a victory.

9 He was proud that that had been done. I think that he scored a lot of

10 points on the basis of what had been done.

11 Q. You also gave some specific examples. You talked about the

12 specific examples of Lovinac, Kijevo, Saborsko, Skabrnja, where you

13 testified that the object and the result of the attack was to move the

14 Croatian population out. And you also testified about Martic's role in

15 those attacks.

16 Now, do you know if in some of the attacks on Croatian villages at

17 that time -- were Croatian civilians killed during some of those attacks?

18 Do you know?

19 A. As far as I remember, I think it was in Lovinac that there was

20 some casualties. Yes, in most cases. So my answer is yes.

21 Q. Today, you said that after the events in Kijevo, after the attack

22 on Kijevo, that Milan Martic and some of the others with him were

23 laughing. Do you know what it was that they were laughing about?

24 A. They were laughing, first of all, because Kijevo as Kijevo now

25 longed to the Serbs, without a population, without anybody. It was as we

Page 2190

1 called it then cleansed. It was a cleansed village taken over by the

2 Serbs.

3 Q. You testified on the first day that from August to December of

4 1991, you observed that the army and the police were engaged in a joint

5 task to join up the Serb lands and to cleanse Croat villages that were in

6 the way of all Croats, including the Croat civilians. Now, I think you've

7 answered this question, but I just want to be clear. Did -- from what you

8 saw and what you heard, did Milan Martic as the commander of the police at

9 the time, did he share that goal of the army and the police to join up the

10 Serb lands and cleanse the Croat areas that were in the way of Croat

11 civilians and all Croats?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, I want to ask you about one -- one question and one answer

14 that you gave during cross-examination. I want to see if you understood

15 the question and ask you about your answer. You were asked on

16 cross-examination if Milan Martic protected the civilian population from

17 any ill-deeds regardless of ethnicity, and your answer was that you

18 thought he tried as far as you knew. Now, first of all, did you

19 understand the question, and secondly, what did you mean in your answer?

20 What were you talking about in that answer?

21 A. I understood the question to be about -- well, after the arrival

22 of the refugees from Benkovac, if that was protection, well, I was

23 answering the question of whether they were protected, the Croatian

24 population, from the Serbs. So in that context, if that's what I was

25 thinking, that they were all gathered up from their houses and put in one

Page 2191

1 place for protection, then yes. But the very fact that they were forcibly

2 collected up, they didn't go there of their own free will to take refuge

3 because they liked to do so but because they had to do so.

4 Q. And when did that occur? When was that? When did that event

5 occur that you were just referring to, the refugees from Benkovac?

6 A. That was after the fall of Ravni Kotori near Benkovac.

7 Q. What year was that?

8 A. I'm not quite sure. I think it was 1993.

9 Q. Okay. Was that what you were thinking about when you answered the

10 question in that way?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, you were asked about some disputes that Milan Martic had with

13 Frenki and with Dusan Orlovic, and specifically you were asked about

14 paragraph 49 of your statement, with regard to Dusan Orlovic, that Milan

15 Martic was upset when he found out that Dusan Orlovic was sending reports

16 directly to the SDB in Belgrade. Now, why -- why, if you know, did that

17 make Milan Martic upset?

18 A. Martic was upset at the time because that was his first piece of

19 knowledge, piece of information, that the information and the -- he

20 believed in and the people he believed in, because he appointed Orlovic,

21 he was with him since day one, it wasn't clear that he was betraying them

22 in a way that he was giving information to Belgrade first and that that

23 information should reach him from Belgrade. So by doing so, he had more

24 connections in Belgrade than he thought.

25 Q. Did Milan Martic want to be in full control and on top of -- of

Page 2192

1 the control in the Krajina at that time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You were asked about paragraph 48 of your statement with regard to

4 the dispute with Frenki, and Defence counsel read part of it about some of

5 the reasons that Milan Martic was unhappy with Frenki, that he was not

6 making a good impression, that he was involved -- he was drinking and

7 spending too much money. I just wanted to -- for completeness's sake read

8 the last sentence of that paragraph where you said that Martic was feeling

9 that he was losing control of the police to Frenki." Was that also one of

10 the reasons that -- do you see that in the paragraph 48, the last

11 sentence "Martic was feeling that he was losing control of the police to

12 Frenki." Was that also one of the reasons for the dispute with Frenki,

13 that he felt he was losing control of the police in the Krajina?

14 A. That's that paragraph ...

15 Q. Paragraph 48, the last sentence. "Martic was feeling that he was

16 losing control of the police to Frenki." Was that also one of the reasons

17 for the dispute between Frenki and Martic, that he felt that Frenki had

18 too much power in the Krajina?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, you were also read parts -- parts of paragraph 49, and one

21 sentence that you weren't read is that "... in July, Martic called

22 Stanisic to have Frenki removed ..." Did that happen? Did he call

23 Stanisic to have Frenki brought back to Belgrade?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. To your knowledge, did Milan Martic ever lose the support of

Page 2193

1 Jovica Stanisic in Belgrade?

2 A. No. When I say no, let me just explain. It depended -- his

3 support was based on the balance of forces towards Babic, plus the

4 problems with Frenki and the problems in Slavonia. So those conditions

5 affected Stanisic's support as he said it.

6 Q. As who said it?

7 A. Martic.

8 Q. But having explained that, that his support was based on the

9 balance of forces, is your answer still that Martic never lost the support

10 of Jovica Stanisic in Belgrade?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, Witness, when you were asked to come to testify in this

13 trial, did you come voluntarily or were you compelled in some way to come

14 here?

15 A. I came of my own free will, and I've already said that.

16 Regardless of whether I received assistant or not, I would have appeared

17 anyway.

18 Q. You heard Defence counsel say that they contend that you ever said

19 things in your testimony that were untrue because you wanted a benefit or

20 because you received a benefit from the Prosecution. Witness, could you

21 please tell this Trial Chamber, have you said anything here untrue because

22 you wanted a benefit from the Prosecution or you thought you received a

23 benefit from the Prosecution?

24 A. No. I never said any untruths, and I especially didn't receive

25 any support. As I see the document that was provided, if that is support,

Page 2194

1 then it wasn't used at all, in fact. When I say it wasn't used, what I

2 said was confirmed, what I said in 1997.

3 Q. Have you told the truth here today in your testimony to all the

4 questions that you've been asked?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. WHITING: Your Honours, I have no further questions. Thank

7 you.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I start with some questions we have for

11 clarifications. Witness, first, according to your language, you mentioned

12 the term "Martic's police," and could you please explain who was that?

13 Was this term "Martic's police" used for all police forces of Serbian

14 Krajina or only for those units that had been trained at Golubic?

15 A. That was used from the very beginning, and especially after the

16 training in Golubic. After Captain Dragan's training, they had far

17 greater effect as Martic's men, Marticevci.

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon, what do you mean "they had far greater

19 effect as Martic's men, Marticevci"? What do you mean "they"? The ones,

20 the units trained in Golubic? Was that your answer?

21 A. All together they were Martic's police, but the abbreviated name

22 was Marticevci, meaning Martic's men, but it applied to the overall

23 police.

24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: To the overall police in Serbian Krajina?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2195

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And then how about the terms the "Red Berets" and

2 the "Knindzas." They were referring to special units, or is this the same

3 as Martic's men, Martic's police?

4 A. Actually, it's just part of the special police, because the

5 Knindza got their name from a small bear, and it was their symbol, their

6 emblem. They got it at the Knin fortress when part of that unit was

7 transferred for further training to Plitvice and Korenica. That's when

8 they came to be known the red -- as the Red Berets or Frenki's men.

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. Going back to Golubic, how many police

10 officers were trained at the Golubic training camp, training centre,

11 during its existence?

12 A. I don't know exactly how many, but at the beginning between 150

13 men were inside, and what happened after that was that some people who

14 were better trained beforehand, then they would have a shorter training

15 period. They didn't have time, so they would be replaced by other men

16 coming in, so that the number could either go up or down.

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And the period they were trained was changing

18 between what durations, once more?

19 A. For example, it was -- training was supposed to last up to two

20 months, because then it was accelerated depending on the capabilities of

21 the men coming in or the individuals, how quickly they were able to get

22 through the course. So this wasn't a set time or period.

23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. Could you explain what were the main

24 contents of that course? What was taught to them?

25 A. The men were trained to be specials, a special force, or they were

Page 2196

1 called specials. That's what they were referred to as, an elite unit in

2 combat skills, to know each other well, not leave one another in dangerous

3 situations, and to carry out the assignment which was actually impossible

4 to accomplish. So part of the elite troops.

5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon, what do you mean by "the assignment which

6 was actually impossible to accomplish"? What assignment?

7 A. At the beginning, there were specific tasks and assignments, but

8 mostly the assignment -- well, if they needed to enter into the rear or

9 behind the Croatian forces and to act from the rear of those forces, for

10 example.

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Witness, you testified that those police officers

12 who had been trained at Golubic were given assignments after their

13 training. You mentioned something about a sort of final test and

14 assignments, so to say, a final test. Could you explain that?

15 A. Yes, I can explain that. For example, and trained unit acted at

16 Ljubovo, and that was the direct assignment that they were supposed to

17 carry out. One of those units went to Glina to take control of the Glina

18 police station. So these were units -- they didn't have to have the same

19 number of men, but they had a joint march on Drvar, which was called

20 Tito's Drvar at the time. It was 70 kilometres away. There was a march

21 towards that place all together, for example. So they were trained for

22 that, to be able to act as a group or as several groups, or as

23 individuals.

24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. You mentioned the attack on Ljubovo.

25 Was that attack then such a final test, or was there another object of

Page 2197

1 that attack, Ljubovo?

2 A. Ljubovo was decided about at that time. There were two things.

3 One, to confirm -- or, rather, that the people who went there could show

4 what they were capable of, how they were capable of performing their task

5 of carrying out their assignment. If possible, without any casualties.

6 To take control of these places without suffering any casualties

7 themselves.

8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. My last question would be -- would

9 concern the Croat village of Lovinac, which was attacked in June 1991,

10 according to your testimony by the Martic police. To your knowledge, how

11 long had this attack been planned?

12 A. I myself don't know how long the planning lasted, but the day

13 before that afternoon it was openly talked about, spoken about. The

14 people were informed about that, so it wasn't a secret. There weren't any

15 secret plans or anything special. The people said quite openly, "We're

16 going to march on Lovinac tomorrow." It was quite openly talked about.

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And how about the aim of this action? There was

18 some discussion yesterday during cross-examination about this attack

19 having been successful or unsuccessful, that it depends on the aim. If it

20 was to take over this village, to occupy this village, is something

21 different from just driving out the inhabitants? And I think in your main

22 examination you referred to putting these people under panic, and

23 yesterday you discussed it as being unsuccessful in terms of taking over

24 this place. Could you explain that a little more?

25 A. When I mentioned -- when I used the word "successful," it was more

Page 2198

1 technical. If the attack was successful. And at that time if something

2 was successful, it was if you carried out an attack. That was successful.

3 Now, the effect was supposed to be -- or, rather, it wasn't successful --

4 what you had to do was have the population move out. And on that day --

5 or, rather, the day before this was discussed it was said if you could go

6 into Lovinac and take it completely without any casualties. And that's

7 why I said that this was carried out. Some forces left but our forces did

8 not enter in complete formation and - how shall I put this, how shall I

9 explain this? - we couldn't see that what the planners had expected did

10 actually happen.

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Witness, I would also like to ask you a few

13 questions. The first question is you had testified concerning the clash

14 between the Serbs and the Croat sides in Plitvice during Easter of 1991.

15 What was the name of the commander of the Serb unit who you said

16 Mr. Martic selected?

17 A. Djurica Manovic.

18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: The unit in question, was it a part of the

19 Martic police, Marticevci, or not, and where did it come from?

20 A. It was mixed. Some from the police station. I think there were

21 70 or 80 men. That's a lot of men for one police station, especially at

22 that time. So it was mixed, made up both.

23 To go back a bit, they were either Martic's men or the Knindza or

24 the Red Berets. Mostly they were the same people. It's just that with

25 time different names were used to apply to them depending on who liked to

Page 2199

1 use what.

2 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And where would the unit have come from?

3 A. From Knin.

4 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: My next question is that you had testified that

5 Goran Opacic - I hope I'm pronouncing it right - was under Mr. Martic's

6 command at that time the operation in Skabrnja was carried out and that he

7 was a member of the Benkovac special police. Could you the Trial Chamber

8 when the Skabrnja operation was carried out?

9 A. I don't know exactly. I don't know the exact date, but let me say

10 once again, Goran Opacic was one of the special policemen who had trained

11 precisely in Golubic. Before that, he belonged to the special forces of

12 the MUP of the Republic of Croatia. And as he finished that part of his

13 training there, he returned to Benkovac. When the operations started,

14 they were with the Yugoslav People's Army.

15 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Could you give us an indication of time of the

16 year or contextualise it perhaps?

17 A. The way I understand things, Skabrnja was at the end of 1991.

18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Now, what was the objective of the operation as

19 you understood it?

20 A. As far as I understand it, Skabrnja was between Ravni Kotori and

21 the road leading to Smokovic or whatever the road was. So this is a long

22 chain of Serb villages, after those villages, that is. So after Skabrnja,

23 everything was clear. The main road had been liberated.

24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. Now, the Benkovac special police,

25 was that a part of Martic's men or of some other unit which you had

Page 2200

1 previously referred to in your evidence?

2 A. The Benkovac police, well, you see, let me just say something that

3 I haven't said yet. The SUP Knin, well, Benkovac belonged to the Knin

4 police station. Benkovac is a town, but according to the organisation

5 system of the police, that entire unit was there. So these people were

6 under Knin, too, under the same command, but they were just serving in

7 Benkovac. In order to make things simpler, it was people from Benkovac

8 and from the villages around it.

9 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And were they part of Martic's police?

10 A. [In English] Yeah.

11 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. Now, you testified that there was

12 some form of Croat military or police presence in Kijevo. What time are

13 you referring to and how big? What number was that presence?

14 A. I think -- well, actually, when the Serb barricades had been there

15 for a while, after that the Croat village of Kijevo placed their own

16 barricades. In January, they became more intensive, and people were

17 already talking about removing them, because at that time nobody could get

18 through. So it was being said that the members of the MUP of Croatia were

19 there. However, as I said, as for these ten people who were taken

20 prisoner, and according to the equipment found in the police station and

21 elsewhere where they slept, well, judging by that it could have been 40 or

22 50, because the place where they slept was very small. I don't know the

23 exact number.

24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Would there have been a similar presence in both

25 Lovinac and Ljubovo? That is, the Croat military or police presence.

Page 2201

1 A. I don't know. I myself do not know, but I only know from the

2 radio manipulations and the manipulations in the newspapers. According to

3 what they were saying, yes. Now, I cannot say that I saw it.

4 Well, manipulations. Now, why am I saying this? I cannot say how

5 many times I was there when these manipulations were heard and written,

6 when these leaders gave these statements to the newspapers and they were

7 absolutely not true, and that's the reason why I'm saying I don't know.

8 Now, how much you can trust the media, well, that's the only thing I can

9 say.

10 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: If you're not able to answer this question,

11 please let me know, but I would like to put it still. What was your

12 impression of who was the target of operations in those three areas that

13 I've just mentioned to you, the Croat military or the police presence or

14 the civilian population? That would be in respect of Lovinac, Ljubovo,

15 and Kijevo.

16 A. The target was to cleanse the village and to get the entire

17 population out and to establish a purely Serb territory.

18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well. Now, you had given evidence and

19 testified about Milorad Kalic. Please tell the Trial Chamber who he was

20 exactly, and let us know also what -- if he had a relationship with Milan

21 Martic and what was the nature of that relationship if he had any

22 relationship.

23 A. His real name is Milorad Calic. I think he was a second

24 lieutenant. He was one of the strongest leaders. Actually, let me say

25 this: Before 1990, he was a policeman. He was thrown out - I don't know

Page 2202

1 why - from the regular police of Yugoslavia at the time, and then he got

2 his chance later. He became a specialist, a second lieutenant - I think

3 that was his rank - and he was the first leader of that unit.

4 Now, since all of that happened, Martic was his best man, rather,

5 the best man at his wedding, and that was a great honour for him.

6 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And that's the extent that you know of the

7 relationship between those two men?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. I believe I'll have to ask for us to

10 go into private session, if I might.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

12 [Private session]

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24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

Page 2206

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. In your testimony on --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. In your testimony on the 8th of

4 March, you talked about meetings that took place in a large room at the

5 headquarters at Golubic, remember?

6 A. I don't know. I'm very sorry. I don't know about the 8th of

7 March. I don't understand the question if it's some meeting on the 8th of

8 March. I just know that the context of the demonstrations on the 9th of

9 March was mentioned. I really am sorry.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. On the 8th of March, 2006, the day before

11 yesterday, when you started testifying, you mentioned in your evidence

12 that meetings used to take place in a large room at Golubic. Remember

13 that?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who were the people meeting in this meeting?

16 A. Well, how should I put this? Quite simply, that's a big room.

17 People from the SDS who - how should I put this? - were there who were in

18 charge of some things, of communications, contacts. Then Martic, Mirko

19 Cenic who was there a lot, then Dusan Orlovic, David Rastovic. At first

20 Jovo Opacic came there, too, and Zelenbaba. So in a word I would say it

21 was the leadership of the SDS and part of the people who were with Martic

22 in the initial organisation. I should say these are the organisers of the

23 petition, and that was sometime in July.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You also mentioned something, and I'm

25 going to try and read it from the transcript. You said that at that time,

Page 2207

1 as people were saying, it was in order to prevent the police force from

2 Knin from coming in, the irregulars, and putting up the chequerboard flag

3 in Knin and things like that because at that time with the establishment

4 of the Serb territories, the Serb territories were sort of established in

5 that way in Croatia.

6 Now, my question to you is, and it is related to the fact that you

7 also said that these barricades were being put up by police, but you say

8 they were put up to prevent police from Knin. I'm not quite sure which

9 police you're talking about here. Which police are blocking which police?

10 A. That blockade was supposed to be because of the Croatian -- or,

11 rather, the barricades were placed order to prevent the Croatian police

12 from entering Knin.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And who were they placed by?

14 A. They were placed by members of the SDS and the Serb police.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You talked about a Puch vehicle. What

16 is Puch?

17 A. A Puch is a big field vehicle for moving about on different kinds

18 of terrain. So it is a vehicle that is used in any kind of terrain.

19 However, the make is Mercedes.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You testified about Mr. Martic telling you about

21 the money there Belgrade, but you also had mentioned the assistance from

22 Belgrade in the form of automatic and semi-automatic weapons. Did

23 Mr. Martic tell you anything about the automatic weapons and

24 semi-automatic weapons, as to what they were for?

25 A. Yes. They were intended for arming -- well, arming as many Serbs

Page 2208

1 as possible, so that as many people as possible would be involved or,

2 rather, units, in defending Serb territories.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were they finally given to those people to arm

4 them, to the Serb people to arm them?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did the Serb people do with them?

7 A. At first they stood on the barricades. They defended these

8 barricades. Later, after these negotiations about removing the

9 barricades, later on, sometime in January 1991, they kept these weapons

10 because these weapons were actually theirs. After January 1991, because

11 of the removal of these barricades, a decision was made that these

12 automatic weapons can no longer appear on barricades, only hunting guns.

13 That was a signal of goodwill, that attempts were being made to improve

14 the situation.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before it was said that they must be removed, were

16 they ever used in combat?

17 A. No. At that time there wasn't any direct fighting.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Grahovo police, are they Croatian or are they

19 Serbian?

20 A. I don't know exactly now whether there were Croats, Muslims and

21 Serbs, but for the most part it was a Serb town. However, the police had

22 not decided yet in Bosnia. The situation was still peaceful. The

23 commander was a Serb. His last name was Tica.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: When did you stop working for -- or working at the

25 training centre for the special units?

Page 2209

1 A. Actually, I never stopped working in Golubic because I needed a

2 long period of time, a year and a half or two, in order to dig for the

3 gasoline station. That's what people were doing even when I was not

4 there. So it took up a lot of time. And then the building of the church

5 did too. After that, I moved on to build the old high school building.

6 So technically speaking, I never really left in terms of my work from that

7 particular place.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you still working there now?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: When was the last day you were at work?

11 A. Sometime in 1995.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You talked about picking locks. Do you

13 remember that?

14 A. No. I think that I mentioned it. I mentioned picking locks

15 within the context of the municipality building and the post office.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: What does "picking locks" mean?

17 A. Well, first of all, changing locks on premises and placing the

18 kind of lock and key you want to have there.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You testified that a certain Dragan and Mark

20 trained the units at Golubic. Do you remember that?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know who paid Dragan and Mark?

23 A. Frenki.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under whose control, if any, were Dragan and Mark?

25 A. Under Frenki's control.

Page 2210

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was Frenki under anybody's control?

2 A. Well, at the beginning, he was to a certain extent be under

3 Martic's control.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: In the end?

5 A. That was the reason. That was how the problem between them broke

6 out. He didn't want to listen to him any more. Frenki refused to listen

7 to Martic more and more often.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Of the units that were trained at Golubic, did you

9 see any - excuse me - any of them in combat?

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know what assignments, if any, they were

12 engaged in at the respective places where it is they returned to?

13 A. If I have understood your question correctly, which places they

14 were or, rather, after their training and when they went back to those

15 places, he was -- they were members of the special police. They weren't

16 used for regular business like traffic regulation or keeping law and

17 order, generally, which is what the police does.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: What were they used for?

19 A. They were only used to carry out certain assignments. For

20 example, if they weren't war operations, they were used pursuant to orders

21 of the commander of the station in which they were, that they would be

22 used if they had any problems with anybody. They would arrest that

23 person, or if they had problems with someone else, or if the commander

24 didn't have enough men for some other assignments. Depending on the needs

25 and the requirements of the town or place where they were serving or where

Page 2211

1 the command was.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said if there was -- they were not in war

3 operations. Were they ever in war operations? Do you know if any of them

4 were ever involved in war operations?

5 A. No. When I mentioned participation in war operations, I said

6 that, but the units came into being before the war operations started. I

7 know some of them personally. Well, there are a lot of names. I knew

8 them all personally, lots of them. When I say "lots," not hundreds, but

9 for a small place a sufficient number.

10 I don't know if that answers your question. I apologise.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It does not. My question was: Do you know if any

12 of them were involved in war operations.

13 A. My answer is yes.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which war operations were they involved?

15 A. Well, I can say directly that the largest war operation was the

16 corridor.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which corridor?

18 A. The corridor was to link up the territory through Republika Srpska

19 across Posavina, the Posavina part, with Serbia.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did they do in that corridor?

21 A. The strongest police force, the elite police force with Martic at

22 its head, went to set up a passageway towards Serbia, towards Bosnia --

23 through Bosnia towards Serbia, to open up the road, that passage.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You haven't actually told me what they did there.

25 You said they open the passage. I understand. How did they open it?

Page 2212

1 What did they do to open it?

2 A. Well, they took part in war operations, in fighting, in battle. I

3 don't know how else to explain this. They went into battle against the

4 other side. I don't know who the other side was, whether it was just the

5 Muslims or the Croats and the Muslims. It depended on the territory, who

6 lived where. Brcko, for example, the large town of Brcko, there was a

7 mixed population there, both Serbs, Croats, and Muslims. So that's just

8 an example. I don't really know.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to ask you an overarching question. In

10 your own understanding, what was the objective of this whole training of

11 units?

12 A. The objective was to take over the territory under Croatian or the

13 Bosnian Herzegovinian units and authorities, to take them over for the

14 Serbs. Technically viewed, with this military operation the Serbs were

15 supposed to gain control of that territory so that they could dispose of

16 it and establish communication with Serbia by road.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Another overarching question. Who was in general

18 control of this whole operation to take over these Croat villages?

19 A. I don't know who had general control over the overall situation,

20 but when I said what I said, I was talking about the part of the units

21 that went up there with Martic, the special units, the specialists. Now,

22 who was in the field, I don't really know. I know that on the one hand

23 there was General Talic, for example. Who else was there, which other

24 units were included, I really can't say. I don't know.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said -- you're talking about units that went

Page 2213

1 there with Martic. What role was Martic playing in this unit when he went

2 about with them?

3 A. The role was to take part in a breakthrough of the corridor, to

4 help the Bosnian Serbs. Quite simply, to take over through battle control

5 of those territories from the Croats or from the Muslims, perhaps, in

6 certain cases, because the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was what it was

7 at the time.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. That will be all.

9 Mr. Whiting?

10 Further examination by Mr. Whiting:

11 MR. WHITING: I couldn't find my button there. Just briefly I

12 have two questions, Your Honour, that follow from Your Honour's

13 questions.

14 Q. Witness, I just have two questions. The first is, His Honour,

15 Judge Moloto, asked you about weapons that were received from Belgrade,

16 and he asked you some questions about how they were used and you gave some

17 answers about the barricades and -- up to January 1991. My question is,

18 were weapons that were received from Belgrade for the Serb forces in the

19 Krajina, were they later used in fighting during the summer and fall of

20 1991?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. My second question is: The -- you were asked some questions also

23 about the units train at Golubic and what they did, and you started -- and

24 you gave the example of the Posavina corridor operation which occurred in

25 1992. Did the units that were trained at Golubic also participate in

Page 2214

1 fighting that occurred during the summer and fall of 1991 in Croatia?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. WHITING: Those are all my questions. Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

5 Mr. Milovancevic.

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have

7 no questions for this witness.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

9 Mr. Witness, you are excused. You don't need to come back to

10 court. You may stand down.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. And thank you very much for coming. We

13 appreciate the difficulties that you have to go through to come here.

14 Thank you.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess that just about brings us to the end of

17 today's session, and I think we can -- yes, Mr. Milovancevic, you want to

18 say something?

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we mentioned the

20 question of a witness protection, so might we go for a very brief moment

21 into private session for me to be able to tell you what you asked me.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

23 May the Chamber please move into private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

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22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.

23 To be reconvened on Monday, the 13th day

24 of March, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.