Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2375

1 Tuesday, 21 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness appeared via videolink]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I could be reminded, Mr. Whiting --

7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, as you're probably aware, the B/C/S is

8 on the English channel. Maybe --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I noticed that.

10 MR. WHITING: Maybe now they've switched.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Do we go into closed session?

12 MR. WHITING: No, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any protective measures? No.

14 MR. WHITING: No, Your Honour.


16 Could the witness please say after me: I declare -- could

17 somebody please interpret the witness to say after me, to take the

18 declaration: I declare that I will tell the truth, the whole truth, and

19 nothing else but the truth. I don't see the witness speaking. I'm not

20 quite sure whether she's making the declaration.

21 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think she didn't have the earphones

22 on.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: She didn't have the earphones, that's why. Okay.

24 Let's start again. Will the witness please say after me: I declare that

25 I will tell the truth ...

Page 2376

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe there's no connection. Let's have a

3 connection and link with the witness.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like her to say the following: I declare

6 that I will tell the truth --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- the whole truth and nothing else but the truth.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. The witness has taken the

11 declaration --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

14 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. You're welcome.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 [Witness testified via videolink]

20 Examination by Mr. Whiting:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Kesic.

22 A. Oh, good afternoon.

23 Q. Before I begin, I'd like to, just as a matter of housekeeping, I'd

24 like to give the -- this is a -- this witness is here for

25 cross-examination only. I'd like to just give her 92 bis statement an

Page 2377

1 exhibit number. It's in e-court, it's 01062734 and also 04656552. There

2 are two parts to the 92 bis package, and if that -- if that could be --

3 that package -- those two parts could be given a number, please.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May those two parts please be given a number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 258.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: 258. Thank you very much.

7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, also with the assistance of the usher

8 I'd like to pass out to everybody a copy -- a hard copy of the witness's

9 statement. I think it will be more convenient for the parties to refer to

10 that rather than trying to see it on the e-court.

11 Q. Mrs. Kesic, can you hear me and understand me in a language that

12 you can understand?

13 A. I hear you, I hear you.

14 Q. As you know, the -- your written statement which you signed and

15 affirmed has been admitted into evidence, and so you will not have to

16 answer -- I will not have to ask you to go through your story again

17 because your written testimony is in evidence.

18 A. I understand.

19 Q. What I'm going to do, however, for everybody's benefit, so that we

20 can follow your testimony, is I'm going to read a summary of your

21 statement. So while I'm reading the summary, all you need to do is just

22 listen - this is really for the benefit of us here in The Hague - and then

23 when I'm finished reading the summary --

24 A. All right.

25 Q. When I'm finished reading the summary, I'll just ask you a few

Page 2378

1 clarifying questions about your statement and then the Defence counsel

2 will ask you some questions. Do you understand?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I'll read the summary now, and so all you need to do is just

5 listen, please, until I start asking you some questions.

6 MR. WHITING: Your Honours, this is just a summary of the

7 statement. It's for the benefit of the Chamber and for the parties and

8 also for the public.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

10 MR. WHITING: Ana Kesic was born on the 21st of April, 1920, in

11 Hrvatska Dubica, and she is a Croat. She has lived in Dubica all of her

12 life, except from 1993 to 1995 when her village was occupied by SAO

13 Krajina forces and she lived in Sisak.

14 Again, for the convenience of the Chamber, Dubica, the village of

15 Dubica can be found on page 21 of the atlas, Exhibit 23, at approximately

16 D3 on the map.

17 Relations between Serbs and Croats in Dubica were peaceful until

18 1990 to 1991. Sometime before September of 1991, the -- Serbs in Hrvatska

19 Dubica left and went to Bosanska Dubica. Then in September of 1991, the

20 Croats living in the village left, leaving only the elderly people. The

21 witness believes that the Croats left because they did not have time to

22 mobilise and resist the SAO Krajina forces, and so they left the village

23 when they thought it was difficult to resist.

24 On approximately 28 October 1991, three persons came to the

25 witness's house: Velja Radunovic; Radovan Sosa, which is a nickname; and

Page 2379

1 Janjeta, also a nickname. These men were driving a truck and asked the

2 witness and the witness's sister-in-law, named Katarina, to attend a

3 meeting. The witness believes that Velja was driving the truck and was in

4 uniform, but she does not remember what uniform he was wearing. The

5 witness and her sister-in-law got on the truck.

6 Nine other people were picked up in neighbouring houses. Danica

7 Krizmanic, Vera Stankovic, Pavle, Bara, Slavko Kucuk, Ruza Dikulic, Sofija

8 Dikulic, and Nikola Loncar. All of the people in the truck were brought

9 to the fire station in Dubica and were detained inside.

10 After a few minutes, one of the guards in a green uniform came and

11 asked for the witness, Mrs. -- no, I'm sorry, asked for Kesic. And the

12 witness and her sister-in-law, Katarina, stepped forward and the guard

13 told them to go home. As they were leaving, they saw a bus full of people

14 arriving to the fire station. The people on the bus were from another

15 part of the village of Dubica. Because it was raining, the witness could

16 not see who the people were on the bus. When the witness and her

17 sister-in-law returned home, they learned that some Serb neighbours from

18 the Obrenovic family had sent someone to take them from the fire station.

19 The witness says that she was released from the fire station because one

20 of her relatives, Zdravko Vujic was then a 2nd lieutenant in the JNA navy

21 in Split. Vujic is a Serb surname, and so they believed that he was a

22 Serb and this is why the witness and her sister-in-law were released. The

23 witness says that had they known her relative was a Croat, she would not

24 have been released.

25 After the witness returned to her house, she was told by a Serb

Page 2380

1 neighbour that they should stay in the house, and this is what they did.

2 The witness and her sister-in-law lived in the basement of the house.

3 They could see Serb soldiers and policemen positioned on the hills and

4 firing their weapons. The witness and her sister-in-law were afraid and

5 could not sleep. They also saw Serb soldiers and policemen singing

6 Krajina songs and they saw that they were drunk much of the time.

7 One day the witness learned from a relative, Milan Sestic, that

8 three of his neighbours had been killed: Batinovic, Luka Krnic, and Stef

9 Uska. Later on, Milan Sestic disappeared and he has been missing since.

10 The witness asked her Serb neighbours what happened to the missing Croats

11 from the village and she was told that they had been sent to Knin and

12 Glina to be exchanged.

13 On the 3rd of August, 1993, the witness managed to leave Dubica

14 and she went to Sisak. There she learned for the first time that all of

15 the people who had been detained in the fire station in Dubica had been

16 killed at Bacin. This was terrible news for the witness.

17 After 1995, the witness returned to her village. Two mines were

18 found in her house. Two houses on her street was completely burned down.

19 A number of houses in other parts of the village were either burned down

20 or damaged. Most of the houses had been looted and Serbs had taken away

21 the valuables from them. The exhumation of the bodies in Bacin occurred

22 in 1997. The witness attended the funeral for the deceased.

23 Q. Now, Mrs. Kesic, I would just like to ask you a few questions

24 about your statement to clarify just a few matters. In your statement you

25 talked about some neighbours of Milan Sestic who were killed, a Batinovic,

Page 2381

1 a Luka --

2 A. Please go ahead.

3 Q. A Luka Krnic and a Stef Uska. Were these people Serb or Croatian?

4 A. Croats, Croats.

5 Q. And how about Milan Sestic; was he a Serb or a Croat?

6 A. Croat.

7 Q. After you returned from the fire station, you describe in your

8 statement living in your house until 1993 when you left to go to Sisak.

9 Could you describe for us how you felt --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you describe for us how you felt during that time that you

12 were living in your house from October of 1991 and 1993. How did you feel

13 and what were the conditions?

14 A. Well, you see, it wasn't exactly pleasant, but -- well, it was

15 hard for us but it wasn't that there was anything lacking. We got aid

16 from the Red Cross, you see, so we fared pretty well. We weren't hungry

17 or something like that. As for the rest, we didn't go anywhere, we did

18 nothing, we didn't have anything. That was it.

19 Q. You said in your statement that when you went to Sisak in 1993 you

20 learned for the first time that the people detained in the fire station

21 had been killed. Could you tell us briefly how it is that you learned

22 that. Who told you that?

23 A. Yes. I was told that when I went to say that I would live in

24 Sisak. I went to report there that I had come from Dubica and that I

25 would live with my niece in Sisak. Then she said to me -- well, I said

Page 2382

1 that I came from Dubica and then she asked me -- she said: How come you

2 managed to stay alive? Then I said to her: Well, they let us go, as you

3 said, but -- I said to her then that -- well, I heard what you said, that

4 there was this exchange. And then she said to me: What do you mean

5 exchanged when they're all dead? They were all killed up there. Well, we

6 call it the brook up there, the brook near Bacin, you know. They were all

7 killed. And from Bosnia they saw them crying and shouting. That's the

8 way it was. Then I felt so sick when she said that. That's where we had

9 lived. Well, that's the way it was.

10 Then this lady that wrote all of this down, this -- this

11 registration that I would be living there in Sisak --

12 Q. Who -- Mrs. Kesic --

13 A. Yes, well, that would be it.

14 Q. Thank you. Who -- who was this lady that you were speaking to?

15 A. Thank you.

16 Q. Who was the lady that you were speaking to who told you this? Can

17 you describe who she was, what position she had, what function?

18 A. Well, she was some kind of scribe. She wrote things down. She

19 was a clerk. I reported there. She was writing things down.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know why those people in the fire station were killed?

23 A. I cannot know that. I don't know that. I don't know that, why

24 they did that.

25 Q. Were the people in -- who were killed in the fire station, do you

Page 2383

1 know, were they Croats? Were they Serbs?

2 A. Only Croats.

3 Q. You said that when you returned to your house after 1995, there

4 were houses that were looted and destroyed on your street and in other

5 places in the village. Were these Serb houses or Croat houses?

6 A. Well, they were Croat houses down there, Croat houses.

7 Q. Did -- did anything happen to the Catholic church in Dubica?

8 A. Yes. Three were torn down.

9 Q. Who tore them down?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat her answer.


12 Q. Mrs. Kesic, we couldn't hear your answer. Could you repeat it one

13 more time. Who tore down the churches?

14 A. The churches were torn down by the people who killed Croats.

15 Q. And who were those people?

16 A. Now, who they were, I don't know.

17 Q. Were they Serbs or were they Croats?

18 A. Serbs.

19 Q. Did anything happen to the Serb Orthodox church?

20 A. Nothing happened to it that time.

21 Q. And when you say "that time," are you referring to the time when

22 you were in Dubica?

23 A. Yes, yes, yes. Do you understand that?

24 Q. I think I do. Did something happen later to the Serb Orthodox

25 church?

Page 2384

1 A. No. It remained intact.

2 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kesic. I don't have any further questions, and so

3 now the Defence counsel will ask you questions. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- Mr. Whiting.

7 Mr. Milovancevic, the Bench -- the Chamber just wants to remind

8 you that the cross-examination is limited to matters concerning Martic

9 police or police and other SAO Krajina force in terms of the decision on

10 the Prosecution's motion for the admission of written evidence pursuant to

11 Rule 92 bis of the Rules of the 16th of January 2006. Of course the

12 Defence is also allowed to ask questions arising from the questions that

13 were asked by the Prosecution this afternoon in addition to the limitation

14 in terms of that decision. Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:

17 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Kesic.

18 A. Good afternoon.

19 Q. I am Predrag Milovancevic, attorney-at-law, Defence counsel for

20 Milan Martic. I am going to put some questions to you concerning the

21 matters that you spoke of in your statement. Can you hear me and

22 understand me?

23 A. I can hear you.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. You're welcome.

Page 2385

1 Q. In your statement you said that, apart from the period between

2 1993 and 1995, you spent your entire life in Hrvatska Dubica. Is that

3 right, Mrs. Kesic?

4 A. I lived in Dubica, and then I went to Sisak.

5 Q. But otherwise did you spend your entire life in Dubica?

6 A. Well, those three years, but then before that, yes, I lived in

7 Dubica. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. You said that the relations between the Serbs and the

9 Croats in Dubica were good until 1991, and then they worsened. I want to

10 ask you whether Dubica was a mixed village, Croat and Serb?

11 A. Dubica was called Hrvatska Dubica, "Croatian Dubica."

12 Q. Do you know why these relations between the Croats and the Serbs

13 deteriorated?

14 A. I don't know. I didn't go anywhere, I didn't leave home. I don't

15 know how this happened.

16 Q. The Prosecutor read your statement in which it says that at one

17 point in time the Serbs left Dubica. Serbs who were the local population

18 of Hrvatska Dubica left Dubica and then the Croats left as well. Do you

19 remember when it was that the Serbs left Dubica?

20 A. Before this uprising, or whatever you call it. They left earlier.

21 They went to Bosnia, you know, Bosanska Dubica. And I don't know why they

22 were crossing over, why they went, whether they had something else on

23 their minds. I don't know. I don't know why they went.

24 Q. You said that after the Serbs left and went to Bosanska Dubica,

25 the population of Hrvatska Dubica who were Croats left in September. Who

Page 2386

1 it was that left in September? I mean what was the age group of these

2 people; younger people, older people, men, women, children or everybody?

3 A. Younger people left. Whoever had any transportation, they all

4 left. Only we older people stayed behind. Only the elderly stayed

5 behind.

6 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kesic.

7 A. You're welcome.

8 Q. Do you know that at that time when the ethnic Croat population was

9 leaving Dubica that the bridge was blown up. Do you know that? Do you

10 remember that at all?

11 A. Could you please repeat what you were saying.

12 Q. At the time when the Croat locals were leaving Dubica, was the

13 bridge between Bosanska-Hrvatska Dubica blown up? Do you remember that?

14 Do you know that?

15 A. Well, there was peace on the bridge. They were guarding it, you

16 know. Our Serbs were guarding it.

17 Q. Was the bridge blown up? I'm asking you that. Was it destroyed

18 at the time?

19 A. Oh, it was destroyed, it was destroyed, yes.

20 Q. You say that the younger population left, whoever could leave.

21 A. Whoever could, left.

22 Q. You said that the Croats thought that they did not have enough

23 time for mobilisation and resistance. What Croats; the Croats from the

24 village or some Croats from elsewhere?

25 A. Please repeat what you said, please.

Page 2387

1 Q. Did you say to the Prosecutor that when the Croats left Dubica --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- that it was believed that there is not enough time for

4 mobilisation and that resistance could not be put up. Is that what you

5 stated?

6 A. I didn't know about that, this resistance. There were just

7 guards, Serb guards, whereas our Croats weren't there. They were guarding

8 all of that, whereas the others left.

9 Q. Have you heard of some three Serbs who were killed in Dubica;

10 Stevo Djurcic, Petar Kojic and Stevo Vlatkovic?

11 A. I have not heard of that. I don't know that.

12 Q. Do you know anything about whether among the population of Dubica,

13 on the Croat and the Serb side - I'm referring to the population - do you

14 know whether there were any armed people on both sides?

15 A. The Croats were not armed; only the Serbs were armed. Not in

16 Dubica, these people -- well, there was this police first but then when

17 people were running away, they weren't either.

18 Q. This police that you're mentioning in connection with running

19 away, was that the Croat police in Dubica?

20 A. Well, there were those and others; half/half. Only the Croats

21 left.

22 Q. Mrs. Kesic, in that period of time did you hear of the National

23 Guards Corps, the so-called ZNG?

24 A. I don't know about that.

25 Q. You don't know anything about them?

Page 2388

1 A. No.

2 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to move on to what happened in relation

3 to the fire station. I have a few questions in that respect. In your

4 statement you said that three persons came on the 28th of October, 1991,

5 in a truck. They came and they were in front of your house?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that they asked you and your sister-in-law to come to a

8 meeting with them. Is that right, Mrs. Kesic?

9 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: Could Mr. Milovancevic

11 please speak slower.

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You said in your statement that these three men who came were

14 Velja Radunovic, Radovan nicknamed Sosa, and some Janjeta?

15 A. Yes, yes, that's true.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, the request is for you to speak a

17 little slower.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. You also said that you think that this Velja was driving the

20 truck. Do you remember who it was that spoke to you out of these three

21 men on that occasion? Who was it who asked you to come to the truck?

22 A. This Janjeta, Janjeta, and this other one with him. I didn't know

23 these people. Danica Krizmanic told me that. She said that this Janjeta

24 was from the hill, and Radunovic, too. They said come to the meeting, and

25 that was it. There was nothing else.

Page 2389

1 Q. Mrs. Kesic --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- you said that you thought that this Velja was wearing a

4 uniform. You mentioned some green uniform. Was this a military uniform

5 or a forester's uniform or a third kind of uniform? You just described it

6 as a green uniform. Do you recall that detail?

7 A. Well, greenish with these little things. I don't know whether

8 it's military. I don't really know about these things. I don't know what

9 kind it was.

10 Q. On that morning, on that day, when they came to get you with the

11 truck, was it raining? Do you remember that detail?

12 A. Yes, yes, it was raining, and how.

13 Q. These people, these three men on the truck, did they perhaps have

14 any kind of raincoats? Do you remember that?

15 A. I think that they did not have any raincoats. And you know those

16 caps?

17 Q. You described that you and your sister-in-law complied with what

18 these men said and that you boarded the truck and that you saw nine of

19 your neighbours on the truck. Is that right, Mrs. Kesic?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. And as one of your neighbours, you mentioned Slavko Kucuk as being

22 one of your neighbours.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was he in the truck on that occasion?

25 A. He came up there with us by the Dom, but I didn't see him go. He

Page 2390

1 was in front of the centre.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. You're welcome.

4 Q. There are people who say -- witnesses who say that that was on the

5 20th of October and not on the 28th of October, 1991. I'm thinking of

6 October, the tenth month, 28th of October. Do you remember the exact date

7 or are you giving us an approximation?

8 A. Well, it was October, yes. We call it "Listopad," the month of

9 October. I don't know what you call it, but yes, the tenth month -- or

10 rather, the eighth.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. You're welcome.

13 Q. In your statement to the Prosecution you said that several minutes

14 after you arrived at the fire station that you and your sister-in-law were

15 called out and that this was done by a guard wearing a green uniform and

16 that he said that you could go. Is that how it was?

17 A. Yes. He asked us -- he asked -- he said: Who's Kesic? And I

18 said that that was me. And he said: Come over here. And then I called

19 my sister-in-law over, and he said: The two of you can go home. You can

20 go down there, and you'll go home, and that's how we went home.

21 Q. You said in your statement that after that you and your

22 sister-in-law, Katarina, went home and that on the road beside you a bus

23 passed by full of people and that it stopped in front of the fire station.

24 Is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2391

1 Q. How far away from the fire station were you when the bus stopped

2 in front of that fire station where you were before that?

3 A. Well, we were quite near our own street. We were entering our own

4 street; quite a long way away.

5 Q. In your statement to the Prosecution you said that on the bus that

6 passed by you the curtains were drawn and that it was raining and that --

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. And that that's why you couldn't see the people inside the bus.

9 Is that right, Mrs. Kesic?

10 A. Yes, that is right.

11 Q. Can you explain to us, then, how you can say that the bus was full

12 of people from Donjani if you were not able to see who was inside the bus

13 because of the rain and all the rest of it.

14 A. No, I couldn't see. No, I couldn't.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. -- didn't the witness say in her

16 statement they could not see who the people were? I thought when you put

17 the question to her now and you summarised what you thought -- what you

18 said she said, you said that she couldn't see the people inside. I think

19 her statement said she couldn't see who the people; in other words, she

20 couldn't identify and say that's so-and-so and that's so-and-so, but she

21 could see that there were people inside.

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the one but

23 last paragraph of the B/C/S of her statement - and the last digits are 364

24 of that statement - she says that: "As the curtains were drawn on the

25 windows of the bus and it was raining, we could not see who the people

Page 2392

1 inside the bus were."

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: "... we could not see who the people inside the bus

3 were." We were -- that statement says: I'm aware there are people

4 inside, but who they are, I don't know.

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That is why

6 I asked her how does the witness know that they were people from Donjani?

7 She saw some people but in continuation of her statement she's very

8 specific and says that the people were from Donjani. So what I meant by

9 asking my question was how she knew that these people were in fact from

10 Donjani, if she could explain that to us.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Whether they were from Donjani. That makes it a

12 different question completely. Thank you very much.

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mrs. Kesic, so you were saying that this bus passed you by and you

15 said that you couldn't distinguish the people inside because the curtains

16 were drawn and it was raining. So how do you know, then, that they were

17 people from Donjani? Did you see them then or did you hear about this

18 later on? That's what I'm asking you.

19 A. Well, the place I mentioned, Donjani, is a little lower down, it's

20 a little lower from our house. Because "donja" means lower down, so we

21 call it Donjani, lower down. That's it.

22 Q. Mrs. Kesic, can you explain to us how you knew that these were

23 people from Donjani, the people in the bus? Did you know they were people

24 from Donjani then, when the bus passed you by, or did you learn that later

25 on? Do you understand what I'm asking you?

Page 2393

1 A. The bus passed by and we could see that there were people inside,

2 but we couldn't see which people were inside. But you could see that

3 there were people inside, and the curtains were drawn and it was raining.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. You're welcome.

6 Q. In the statement to the Prosecution you said that to you and

7 Katarina, once you'd arrived home, your neighbours, the Obrenovic family -

8 in fact, two women, Milka and Rosa, whose surnames you don't remember, so

9 another two women - that they had sent Glisa Obrenovic to get you out of

10 the fire station. Is that how it was?

11 A. Yes, that's right. They said: We sent Glisa to get you out of

12 there, to get you home, to get you back home.

13 Q. When you arrived home, did this man Glisa come by later and tell

14 you that you shouldn't leave your house or that you weren't to leave your

15 house? And if he did say that, what did he think? How did he mean not to

16 leave your house? In what sense?

17 A. Well, that's what they said. They came and said don't go outside.

18 Don't go out, and then nothing will happen to you. Just don't go outside,

19 just don't leave your house, because there was shooting.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 A. You're welcome.

22 Q. You also say in your statement, mentioning your release, that they

23 released you because a relative of yours was a lieutenant-colonel in the

24 Yugoslav navy in Split and that they thought that he was a Serb and so

25 that you were a Serb as well and that that's why they released you. Is

Page 2394

1 that what you said?

2 A. His name -- his surname is Vujic. And there are a lot of Orthodox

3 people with the surname Vujic in our village. So I -- I suppose they

4 might have thought that that was it, and we were on good terms and that's

5 the truth of it, so that's how that came about.

6 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you something else. This guard wearing the

7 green uniform who called your name out while you were at the fire station

8 and who called out the name Kesic and then you two stepped forward, did he

9 know you or did you know him? Did you know the man?

10 A. No, no, not at all.

11 Q. When the man released you, did he mention this relative officer of

12 yours in the Yugoslav navy?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So when you left the fire station, when you went outside, did you

15 meet any other guards or did you happen to talk to anybody else about your

16 2nd lieutenant relative in the JNA navy?

17 A. We didn't tell anybody else, no, but they knew about it. They

18 knew who he was because we were all on very good terms. So they knew, on

19 the basis of the name, the surname, that it was somebody who was Orthodox,

20 judging by the surname.

21 Q. I'm asking you all this because of your statement which is linked

22 to a conversation with that -- those neighbours of yours, the Obrenovics,

23 and you said they sent Glisa to get us out. And then the conclusion you

24 draw is that you were released because they thought, by mistake, that you

25 were Serbs and not Croats, so --

Page 2395

1 MR. WHITING: Objection, objection, objection. The statement

2 doesn't say that. What the statement says is that they --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbs, Serbs.

4 MR. WHITING: She believes that they thought her relative was a

5 Serb. It doesn't say anything about what they thought about her.

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I won't insist on

7 that question. I'll withdraw it, not to make things more complicated with

8 this witness, with your permission, of course.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic, and while

10 I'm at it, might I just remind you the limitations in terms of which your

11 cross-examination is supposed to go. I have not yet picked up that you

12 are asking on -- in terms of the motion that was granted. And I think you

13 have gone far beyond the questions that were asked by the Prosecutor.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was questioning

15 the witness only on matters that the Prosecutor asked her about -- or

16 rather, he read out the statement. So those were the circumstances that I

17 inquired about, and I thought that this was linked to Martic's police and

18 everything else. So that's the context of it, and the witness experienced

19 and lived through what she lived through and she's speaking about the

20 context in which this happened. So I only have a few more questions and

21 then I'll draw my cross-examination to a close. The witness is testifying

22 about something that is very personal and the experience -- the terrible

23 experience that she herself had.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic. You may proceed.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 2396

1 Q. Mrs. Kesic, I'm just going to ask you a few more questions. You

2 said that you stayed there, in that place in 1993, until your

3 sister-in-law, Katarina, died, and then you left and went to Sisak. Is

4 that right?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. You also mentioned that Katarina died in July 1993 and that she

7 was buried at the village cemetery. Can you tell us who buried Katarina?

8 Who helped you with the funeral? Who helped you to bury her?

9 A. A Serb helped me. He was the number one man in the municipality,

10 and these foreign soldiers. And an officer ordered her body, which was in

11 Kostajnica, to be brought to Dubica to our cemetery there. Yes, that's

12 how it was, and that's how we buried her; our neighbours and us, we buried

13 her.

14 Q. Now, these neighbours of yours, were they Serbs? Were they the

15 Obrenovic family that you mentioned?

16 A. Yes, yes, that's right. Yes, he's my neighbour.

17 Q. Were they with you all the time, and how did they behave towards

18 you?

19 A. Well, we were on very good terms. They were very good to me.

20 Q. And finally, the Prosecutor asked you about the Catholic church in

21 Dubica and who destroyed the church.

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. And he also asked you about the Orthodox church, and you said that

24 on that occasion nothing happened to it, but when did something happen to

25 it, then? When did something happen to the Orthodox church?

Page 2397

1 A. Not that time, no.

2 Q. Did you live in Dubica in 1941 during World War II?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is that when the Orthodox church in Dubica was destroyed?

5 A. Yes, that's right, it was destroyed then.

6 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions. I apologise for having

7 to take you back to these unfortunate and sad events, but that's our job.

8 Thank you again.

9 A. You're welcome.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

11 Mrs. Kesic, I have a few questions to ask you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are there any villages around Dubica that you are

15 aware of?

16 A. A little louder, please.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are there any villages around Dubica that you are

18 aware of?

19 A. Yes, there are.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know if anything happened in any one of

21 those villages at around the same time as you were being called to the

22 fire station?

23 A. Well, I can't tell you. I wasn't there. Who came and who didn't

24 come, I really don't know.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mrs. Kesic.

Page 2398

1 A. You're welcome.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising from the question from the

3 Bench?

4 MR. WHITING: No, Your Honour. Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic? Thank you very much.

6 Mrs. Kesic, thank you once again very much for coming, and I --

7 may I repeat the statements that were made by counsel for the Defence: We

8 are sorry to bring you back here and remind you of all these incidents

9 that I would -- I think you would want to forget about. But as he says,

10 it's our job we have to do and we thank you very much for coming. You are

11 now excused, you may stand down. Thank you very much.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.


14 [The witness's evidence via videolink concluded]

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess you don't have any other witness for the

16 day, Mr. Whiting?

17 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, no, we don't. And I apologise for the

18 gap, it's just the necessity of the logistics here. So our next witness

19 is not available until tomorrow.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Quite understandable, Mr. Whiting. Maybe we could

21 use the last few minutes before the break to attend to housekeeping

22 matters, if there are any.

23 Yes.

24 MR. WHITING: The only matters that I'm -- well, there are two

25 matters. The first is tomorrow's schedule. I understand that the

Page 2399

1 morning, as it turns out, is not available and so there's been some

2 discussion about -- to ensure that we finish the witness tomorrow, maybe

3 taking slightly shorter breaks. I think that by doing that and possibly

4 going over a few minutes, but maybe not even, we should have no difficulty

5 finishing the witness tomorrow. I'll certainly try to go as quickly as I

6 can with my direct examination and I'll try to take up less than half the

7 time of the day.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe so that there's a little bit of certainty in

9 the minds of everybody around here, if you can venture an estimation of

10 how long breaks we should take and by how many more minutes we might have

11 to go beyond the time so that --

12 MR. WHITING: I understand. I think that the -- if we took

13 20-minute breaks instead of half-hour breaks, that would be an advantage.

14 And then I would not expect that we would have to go over more than half

15 an hour, if that, and I don't even think that is likely to happen. It's

16 very hard to estimate to the minute.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I understand.

18 MR. WHITING: But that's the most -- that's the worst-case

19 scenario.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The worst-case scenario.

21 If I may ask those who need the 30-minute break, would a 20-minute

22 break tomorrow be reasonably okay for -- to do what has to be done during

23 the breaks, the corrections on the translations and other things?

24 THE INTERPRETER: As far as the interpreters are concerned, yes,

25 Your Honour.

Page 2400

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I'm not sure whether it is

2 the interpreters only or there are technicians also involved in the work

3 that is done during the break. Interpreter, are you able to tell us?

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can only speak for themselves.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Okay, I've just been told

6 that there's no problem with that. Okay. Thank you so much.

7 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

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21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

Page 2401

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Then the Chamber will expect

6 your report in a week or so's time.

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I've just got an admonishment. We've got to make a

9 redaction on this issue because of security reasons.

10 MR. WHITING: I apologise, Your Honour. I wasn't aware of that.

11 I didn't realise that there was a security issue involved there.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Okay.

13 Obviously, then, we've come to the end of today's session. Court

14 adjourned to tomorrow at 2.00 in the afternoon, same court. Court

15 adjourned.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.23 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day of

18 March, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.