Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2402

1 Wednesday, 22 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness appeared via videolink]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

7 MR. WHITING: Good afternoon, Your Honours. The Prosecution calls

8 its next witness, Marica Vukovic.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May the witness please say

10 after me: "I solemnly declare ..."

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare ...

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: "... that I will tell the truth, the whole truth

13 and nothing else but the truth."

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] ... that I will speak the truth, the

15 -- and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The witness has made the

17 declaration. You may proceed, Mr. Whiting.

18 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Examination by Mr. Whiting:

22 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Vukovic.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. Can you understand -- hear me and understand me in a language that

25 you understand?

Page 2403

1 A. Yes, I can understand you.

2 Q. If at any time you can't hear me or you cannot understand me,

3 please let me know.

4 A. I understand, yes.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'm going to go through your background first

6 and just ask you if you can confirm it. Were you born on the 9th of April

7 1955 in Poljanak?

8 A. Yes, I was.

9 MR. WHITING: For the benefit of the Chamber, the village of

10 Poljanak can be found in the atlas which is Exhibit 23 on page 19, just

11 above E3 on that map.

12 Q. Mrs. Vukovic, are you an ethnic Croatian?

13 A. Yes, I am.

14 Q. Have you lived in Poljanak all your life except from the 7th of

15 November 1991 until 1995?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I want to turn now to the year 1991. Can you tell us, about how

18 many households were there in Poljanak in that year?

19 A. Well, about 50.

20 Q. Was Poljanak a Serb village or a Croat village or a mixed?

21 A. It was a purely Croat village but there were mixed marriages in

22 the village as well.

23 Q. Could you tell us about how far Poljanak is located from Saborsko?

24 A. About 14 kilometres.

25 Q. And how far is it from Poljanak to Plitvica?

Page 2404

1 A. Eight kilometres.

2 Q. Is Poljanak situated between Saborsko and Plitvica?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us how far -- in 1991, how far was the village or

5 hamlet of Vukovici from Poljanak?

6 A. About half a kilometre.

7 Q. Before 1991, can you tell the Trial Chamber what were the

8 relations like -- how were the relations between Serbs and Croats in your

9 area?

10 A. They were good until 1991.

11 Q. How did they start to change in 1991?

12 A. Ah, well, I don't know that.

13 Q. Well, maybe we'll take it -- I'll take it step by step. Did

14 either side, either the Serb side or the Croat side or both sides begin to

15 obtain weapons in 1991?

16 A. Well, more the Serb village, in the Serb village. You could see

17 more weapons in the Serb village.

18 Q. And when you say "the Serb village," what are you referring to?

19 Which village in particular are you referring to?

20 A. Well, I know that the village of Plitvica, because I came there on

21 the 7th of January 1991, and we came across people who were armed and

22 dressed in uniforms; Serbs, Serb soldiers.

23 Q. What kind of uniforms were they wearing, if you remember?

24 A. Well, there were green uniforms and camouflage uniforms.

25 Q. You said that you were in Plitvica on the 7th of January 1991.

Page 2405

1 What was the reason you were in Plitvica, if you remember?

2 A. Yes. Since my husband had a sister who was married to a Serb, we

3 were celebrating the Orthodox Christmas, and when we were on our way back

4 from my sister-in-law's in the Plitvica village, we were stopped at the

5 bridge. And we saw people who were armed in the village of Plitvica and

6 they had green military uniforms on them too. But we didn't know why or

7 how come.

8 Q. How did you know they were Serbs?

9 A. Well, we recognised a few of our Serb neighbours.

10 Q. Now, during that time, after January of 1991, did it -- did Croats

11 from your village or your area have any difficulties travelling to

12 Plitvica or travelling through Plitvica?

13 A. Not until Easter. There were no problems until then, but after

14 Easter, few people went.

15 Q. I'll ask you about Easter in just a moment. But you described

16 that you were stopped at the bridge at Plitvica in January -- on the 7th

17 of January 1991. Do you know if in the time from January 1991 until

18 Easter of 1991, did that happen to other people? Were other people

19 stopped at the bridge, stopped in Plitvica?

20 A. Well, I really can't say. There was a young boy who was stopped,

21 Zdravko Sebalj on that same day when we were stopped, that evening. And

22 they mistreated him a bit because they took everything out of his car and

23 he told us about that when he returned. He told us about what had

24 happened, and he was a friend. Whereas other people didn't really go

25 often. If they had to go, nobody was sure they would be safe.

Page 2406

1 Q. This boy that you just told us about, Zdravko Sebalj, who you

2 described as a friend, is he Croatian or Serbian?

3 A. He's a Croat from the village of Lipovaca.

4 Q. And do you know exactly -- what happened to him in Plitvica on

5 that day? Where was he going, what happened, if you know?

6 A. Well, he was working at Mladen Biga's place in Plitvica and he was

7 -- his brother was supposed to go and do his military service. They

8 stopped him and asked where he was going and he said he was going to call

9 his boss to the farewell, and they let him go. But when he went to his

10 boss, he says, Why are you coming? There is a war brewing and you're

11 coming to ask me to attend the celebrations. Then they went up to the

12 bridge and he told his friend to let him go and not to touch him any more,

13 and he said -- he told Zdravko not to come to Plitvica village any more

14 because it wasn't safe.

15 Q. The Mladen Biga that you referred to, is he Serb or Croatian?

16 A. He's a Serb.

17 Q. And he -- he told Zdravko not to come to Plitvica because it

18 wasn't safe?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, you said -- in an earlier answer you said that -- you made a

21 reference to something that happened on Easter of 1991. What happened on

22 Easter 1991?

23 A. Well, I don't know. It was just that in the morning -- or rather,

24 in the evening, my daughters went to the discotheque and didn't return

25 until 6 a.m., and then I went to my neighbour's to ask whether his

Page 2407

1 children had arrived home, and he said, "My children haven't come home

2 either, so I'm going to Grabovac to learn -- perhaps I can learn something

3 there." And when he went down there, the police wouldn't let him go onto

4 the main road, and he was told that all the children were put up at

5 Grabovci and that there was war in Plitvica and that the children had been

6 put up at the motel in Grabovac and that until the situation had

7 stabilised they wouldn't be let go, and it was only at 10 a.m. that the

8 children came home. When we switched the televisions on, we saw

9 everything on television. We saw the barricades and people dead and

10 wounded, and all sorts of things. And we heard planes and helicopters

11 flying overhead. Now, I don't know who was in those helicopters.

12 Q. Now, you said that the children had been taken to Grabovac. Can

13 you tell us where that is? Where is Grabovac in relation to your village?

14 A. Grabovac is about eight kilometres towards Zagreb, from our

15 village towards Zagreb. And the children were in Slunj, at the

16 discotheque there, and they were coming back from the Slunj discotheque

17 and were stopped at Grabovac by the police. The police didn't let them

18 carry on their way.

19 Q. Now, after that event occurred, on -- in Plitvica on Easter 1991,

20 what changed in your area? How did -- what -- did -- what happened?

21 A. Well, what happened was this: The people no longer went to work

22 after Easter. It wasn't safe. The hotels stopped working, there weren't

23 any guests. Those Serb neighbours who would come began coming less

24 frequently to our village. The school -- well, the school bus would be

25 driving some days, not others, and that was what it was like until June,

Page 2408

1 until the school year finished and school was out, and then nobody went

2 any more any way.

3 Q. You said that the Serb neighbours would become -- came less and

4 less frequently to your village. Did Croats also go less and less to Serb

5 villages?

6 A. Yes. Nobody went anywhere unless they absolutely needed to. So

7 nobody would leave their houses or their villages.

8 Q. So there came a time when you stayed in Poljanak and you wouldn't

9 leave Poljanak?

10 A. I didn't know until the 7th of November. And on the 5th of

11 September 1991, all the small children and women with minors left for

12 Kraljevica from the village of Poljanak and all the surrounding villages

13 as well.

14 Q. Okay. There -- maybe there was -- I'll ask you some questions

15 about those things in a moment, but you were saying -- you were saying

16 earlier that after Easter at some point nobody went anywhere. Did there

17 come a point after Easter when you stayed in Poljanak and you didn't leave

18 your village?

19 A. Yes. There was.

20 Q. What --

21 A. I didn't go anywhere.

22 Q. And when was that point? Was it at Easter that you stopped

23 leaving your village or was it a little bit later, or when was it that you

24 stayed in Poljanak and stopped leaving your village?

25 A. Well, after Easter. The women were at home, the men folk, if they

Page 2409

1 felt safe, would go and get supplies. But the women were at home more or

2 less all the time, so that after Easter I didn't go anywhere outside my

3 village, in fact.

4 Q. And I think you've answered this question a little bit, but could

5 you tell us why? Why didn't you leave your village after Easter?

6 A. Well, I didn't feel safe.

7 Q. And did anything happen to people who did leave the village, who

8 went to other villages?

9 A. Wherever there were any soldiers and police, Serb soldiers and

10 police, we gave up going there, and we didn't socialise with anybody. We

11 didn't feel safe. And as our village was occupied by the Serbs, that is

12 to say the Serbs were all around the village, we didn't move out of the

13 village anywhere.

14 Q. You said that you didn't feel safe wherever there were Serb

15 soldiers and police. Can you tell us where -- where were there Serb

16 soldiers and police? How -- in what villages and how far away from your

17 village?

18 A. Well, they were at Plitvica. They were at the Korana bridge.

19 They were in the village of Plitvica, and from the village of Plitvica

20 they would come to our village from time to time, armed and wearing

21 uniforms. But they didn't touch anybody in Plitvica village, or mistreat

22 them, and they said that nothing was to happen to us as long as they were

23 in the village.

24 Q. When they came -- did they -- did the Serb -- Serb soldiers or

25 police ever come to your village in vehicles or come through, either in

Page 2410

1 your village or through your village in vehicles?

2 A. Yes. They did. APCs, they were on their way to Saborsko.

3 Q. How often did that happen that APCs would come through your

4 village on the way to Saborsko?

5 A. Well, they would pass by every day; once a day, sometimes twice a

6 day, but they went every day.

7 Q. Did -- was there of a time when the APCs were prevented from

8 going through your village to Saborsko?

9 A. No, never.

10 Q. Now, how far away is the village -- is the town or village of

11 Korenica?

12 A. About 25 kilometres.

13 Q. During this time period from Easter of 1991 until let's say the

14 summer of 1991, would anybody from your village ever go to Korenica?

15 A. Well, yes. The children went to school by bus.

16 Q. Is --

17 A. And the boys went to the recruitment. Three neighbours from the

18 village went. They were supposed to go and do their military service or,

19 rather, go and be recruits but they were caught, captured up there and

20 mistreated and they let them go very late, towards evening, at night-time,

21 and they were told not to go back to Korenica.

22 Q. When did that happen?

23 A. Well, that was June, maybe July, June 1991. I don't know exactly

24 but I think it was thereabouts, because school was still going, it hadn't

25 finished yet. And those two boys left school in Korenica and they ended

Page 2411

1 up in Opatija a month or two later.

2 Q. Now, is Korenica a Serb village or a Croat village or mixed?

3 A. Well, it was mostly inhabited by Serbs.

4 Q. And you said that these boys were captured and mistreated. Do you

5 know who captured and mistreated them?

6 A. Well, they said -- people said that they were people from

7 Korenica. Now, who they actually were, I really can't say. I don't know.

8 Q. Did they say whether they were Serbs or Croats who mistreated

9 them?

10 A. Serbs, Serbs.

11 Q. Now, did there come a time when villages in your area were

12 shelled?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where did the shelling first occur? Which village was first

15 shelled, to your knowledge?

16 A. Well, the first village that was set fire to was Rastovaca and

17 there was shooting coming from Rastovaca, and on the 28th of August the

18 first shells began to fall. They fell every day after the 28th of August.

19 Q. Let me ask you some questions about what you've just told us.

20 Rastovaca, where is that in relation to your village, Poljanak?

21 A. Rastovaca is across the Korana river, opposite Poljanak. Before

22 you get to Plitvica, two kilometres before Plitvica.

23 Q. And is it a Croat village or a Serb village?

24 A. It's a Croat village.

25 Q. You said on the 28th of August the shelling began. Was that in

Page 2412

1 your village, in Poljanak, that it began?

2 A. Our village, yes, Poljanak.

3 Q. What about Saborsko? Was Saborsko shelled?

4 A. Yes. It was. It was shelled a little before our village.

5 Q. How do you know that?

6 A. Well, because the refugees went through our village to Grabovac on

7 tractors, horses, carts, cars if they had them. They were fleeing. And

8 we asked, Why are you fleeing, what's happening? And they said, Well,

9 there are shells exploding in our village and we have to get away from our

10 houses.

11 Q. You said that happened before your village was shelled. Do you

12 remember what month that happened in, approximately?

13 A. I think it was June or July.

14 Q. Okay. Now, during this time, during the summer and fall of 1991,

15 did you see any Croatian military units in your village?

16 A. The police passed through the village on their way to Saborsko,

17 the Croatians.

18 Q. And where was the Croatian police based?

19 A. It was in Drezni Grad and Grabovac.

20 Q. And again remind us --

21 A. And there was a police station in Slunj.

22 Q. How far away were those police stations in Grabovac and in Slunj?

23 A. How do you mean; from what place?

24 Q. I'm sorry, from your village, from Poljanak.

25 A. Poljanak is 12 kilometres from Dreznik. Grabovac is eight

Page 2413

1 kilometres away.

2 Q. Now when the Croatian police passed through your village, how many

3 would pass through? Was it one or two or was it groups of them, or how

4 many would pass through?

5 A. Well, two or three, four at the most. They were going to take

6 over shifts in Saborsko.

7 Q. Did they ever --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat that last bit.


10 Q. We missed what you just said, the last part of your answer. Could

11 you repeat that?

12 A. There would be two of them, four of them at the most.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Because they were going to take up their duty in Saborsko, take up

15 their shift.

16 Q. Did they ever stay in your village, Poljanak, or were they always

17 just passing through?

18 A. Well, while the cafe at Poljanak was still open, they would stop

19 by and have a beer and then carry on their way. But if the shop was

20 closed, then they wouldn't bother to stop.

21 Q. Okay. Aside from the Croatian police passing through and

22 sometimes stopping for a beer, were there any other Croatian military

23 units or military soldiers in Poljanak during the summer and the fall of

24 1991?

25 A. No. There weren't any soldiers. Just the inhabitants of the

Page 2414

1 village, and they were the civilian protection force.

2 Q. What did the civilian protection force do? What was their

3 function or job?

4 A. Well, they protected the women and children, and they would

5 protect the area around the houses, they would keep watch and see if there

6 was any shooting. If they heard any shooting, they would report, but they

7 didn't have any weapons so they couldn't do anything really.

8 Q. Did they ever mount attacks, go on -- initiate fighting, start

9 fighting anywhere?

10 A. No, never.

11 Q. Now, you described how your village started to be shelled in

12 August, on the 28th of August 1991. What did the people in your village

13 do in response to that, if anything?

14 A. Well, there was nothing. They didn't have anything to react with,

15 or anything like that. But we didn't sleep in our houses any more after

16 that at all.

17 Q. Did anybody leave the village at that time?

18 A. Well, a couple of families left but they returned two or three

19 days later and then didn't leave any more until the 7th of November.

20 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony you said something about in

21 September women and children leaving, and maybe I misunderstood but could

22 you explain that, if I understood it correctly, that in September women

23 and children left?

24 A. Yes. The small children left, and the women who had small

25 children. We who did not have small children or anybody else, we all

Page 2415

1 remained in the village.

2 Q. I see. And the women who had small children who left, where did

3 they go?

4 A. To Kraljevica.

5 Q. And why did they leave?

6 A. They left because there was shooting. They couldn't sleep at

7 home. The children were afraid. They couldn't stand it any more.

8 Q. You told us that after the shelling you stopped sleeping in your

9 houses. Can you describe that. Where did you sleep?

10 A. In the forest.

11 Q. And would you go back to your house during the day?

12 A. Yes, to prepare something to eat, if there was no shooting.

13 However, if there was shooting, we were in the forest day and night.

14 Q. Were you able to tell where the shooting and shelling came from?

15 A. From Rastovaca, from Plitvica, from Bigina Poljana.

16 Q. Just a moment. Now, Rastovaca, you told us before, is a Croat

17 village. Why would -- do you know why shelling would be coming from

18 Rastovaca?

19 A. It was a Croatian village. They set fire to the village, expelled

20 the villagers, and occupied it.

21 Q. Who is "they"? Who did that?

22 A. The Serbs.

23 Q. And you said the shelling also came from Bigina Poljana, which I'm

24 probably mispronouncing but hopefully the interpreter will pronounce it

25 correctly. Is that -- at the time, was that a Serb village or a Croat

Page 2416

1 village?

2 A. A Serb village.

3 Q. Now, did there come a time when something happened to Jure Pavlic?

4 A. Yes. Jure was killed on the 28th of August, at Vaganac.

5 Q. Who was Jure Pavlic?

6 A. He was a Croatian policeman from the village of Dreznik, and he

7 was a Croat.

8 Q. And do you know anything about how he was killed?

9 A. He and two others, his brother Ante and Marko Turkalj, were on a

10 police patrol. Rade Keca and Janko Jerkovic came by with a truck. They

11 wanted to stop them, to check them, and as soon as he asked for their

12 documents, instead of taking out his document, he took out a pistol and

13 shot him.

14 Q. Who did that? Who shot him?

15 A. Janko Jerkovic and Rade Keca.

16 Q. Were those two men Serbs?

17 A. Yes, they were Serbs.

18 Q. And did something happen to them?

19 A. Yes. Jure's brother, Ante, shot both of them.

20 Q. Were they both killed?

21 A. He killed them.

22 Q. Now, I want to turn to -- I want to move forward now to October of

23 1991. Okay? And in October of 1991, did something happen to Tomo Vukovic

24 in your village?

25 A. Yes. He was killed in front of his house.

Page 2417

1 Q. Do you remember when that happened?

2 A. It was around noon or 1.00 on the 8th of October.

3 Q. And what do you know about that? What do you know about what

4 happened? How was he killed? What happened?

5 A. At around 1.00, shooting started on the village. We fled to the

6 forest. It started to rain heavily. We spent the night in the forest.

7 Not far from their houses, we saw flames. We heard shooting and we saw

8 houses burning. In the morning, my husband, as soon as it got light, went

9 there because he had a brother in that village. He went to see what was

10 happening. When he came back, he said three houses have been burnt down;

11 Tomo's house, Pero's house and Aunt Lucija's house, and Tomo has been

12 killed. He was killed in front of his house. Three days later we buried

13 him. For three days there was shooting so we were unable to bury him.

14 Q. And what village did that happen in?

15 A. The village of Vukovici, not far from Poljanak.

16 Q. And you say he was killed in front of his house. Who killed him,

17 if you know?

18 A. Yes. But I don't know.

19 Q. Do you know if it was Serbs or Croats or --

20 A. The Serbs were in the village on that day.

21 Q. Okay. Was Tomo Vukovic a soldier or a fighter or a member of the

22 police?

23 A. No, he wasn't. None of that, no.

24 Q. Do you know why he was killed?

25 A. I don't know that either.

Page 2418

1 Q. Okay. I want to ask you about Milan Pavlic. Did something happen

2 to a man by the name of Milan Pavlic?

3 A. Yes; he was captured on that day.

4 Q. Where was he captured?

5 A. About half a kilometre or a kilometre away from his house, in the

6 forest.

7 Q. And his house was in which village?

8 A. In Poljanak.

9 Q. Do you know who captured him?

10 A. His neighbours from Plitvica, Serbs.

11 Q. What happened to him after he was captured?

12 A. They captured him and took him to Korenica. He wasn't at home for

13 a day or two. We didn't know where he was or what was happening. Two or

14 three days later, soldiers came from the village of Plitvica and they came

15 to his house, two lads, and his wife asked them, do you know anything

16 about my Mico? And they said, yes, he's in Korenica, nothing will happen

17 to him. He had a sister living in Korenica who was married to a Serb and

18 his sister managed to get word to us that he was detained in Korenica, and

19 that's how we found out where he was.

20 Q. Do you know how long he was detained in Korenica?

21 A. About 15 days, and then he was exchanged at Manjaca.

22 Q. Did you talk to -- did you ever talk to him after he was

23 exchanged?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Did he tell you anything about what had happened to him while he

Page 2419

1 was detained?

2 A. He said all sorts of things. They broke his nose, they broke his

3 head. They beat him. They maltreated him. They did all sorts of things

4 to him, but he doesn't like to talk about it. He says that when he is

5 talking about it, he doesn't feel right.

6 Q. Was Milan Pavlic a soldier or a policeman or part of any military

7 force?

8 A. No, no. He's none of those things.

9 Q. I want to ask you about some other people. Ivan and Mile Loncar,

10 did something happen to them?

11 A. They hung themselves.

12 Q. They hung themselves?

13 A. Yes. Whether the Serbs hung them or whether they committed

14 suicide, nobody saw, but Mile was an invalid so it's very unlikely that he

15 could have done it himself, but nobody saw this happen so nobody can prove

16 it.

17 Q. When did that happen?

18 A. I think it was on the 14th of October.

19 Q. And were these men part of any military or were they soldiers or

20 police?

21 A. No, no. Mile was an invalid and Ivan was an elderly man.

22 Q. How about Ivan? Was he a young man or an elderly man?

23 A. He was elderly.

24 Q. Did you know them?

25 A. Yes. They were neighbours of mine.

Page 2420

1 Q. What do you think happened to them? Do you think they committed

2 suicide or were murdered?

3 A. I don't know, but judging by Mile, I don't think he could have

4 done it himself. I think somebody had to do this to him. As for Ivan, I

5 don't know. They would never have done that. We knew them. They were

6 courageous men. They wouldn't have committed suicide, but we didn't see

7 what happened actually.

8 Q. I understand. Did you go to their funeral, the funeral for Ivan

9 and Mile Loncar?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Did you have a conversation with Goran Visnjic there?

12 A. No, I spoke to Goran Visnjic at my house on that day. Goran

13 Visnjic was walking down the road and he was passing by my house. He said

14 to me, Marica, are there any soldiers here? I said, I don't know. How

15 should I know who was where? And he said to me, If anyone fires a single

16 shot at us, not a cat in this village will remain alive.

17 Q. Now, this Goran Visnjic, is he a Serb or a Croat?

18 A. He's a Serb.

19 Q. And what village is he from?

20 A. From Jezerac, Okino Jezerac.

21 Q. How far is that from your village?

22 A. About ten kilometres.

23 Q. Was he wearing a uniform when he had this conversation with you?

24 A. Yes. He was wearing a uniform and carrying a rifle.

25 Q. How did it make you feel when he said that, If anyone fires a

Page 2421

1 single shot at us, not a cat in this village will remain alive?

2 A. I didn't feel very nice. I didn't answer him at all. I just went

3 back inside and he continued along the road.

4 Q. I want to ask you about some other people. Did something happen

5 to Ivica and Perica Bicanic?

6 A. Yes. They too were captured.

7 Q. If you need to have a moment to drink some water, please go ahead.

8 There should be some water in front of you.

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. Where were they captured?

11 A. At Ivica's house.

12 Q. And where was that, in what village?

13 A. Or rather, excuse me, at Perica's house, sorry.

14 Q. And which village was Perica's house in?

15 A. The village of Poljanak.

16 Q. When did that happen?

17 A. I think it was also on the 14th of October.

18 Q. How do you know it happened?

19 A. Perica is my uncle. I set out towards his house. His wife had

20 gone to Kraljevica so I went to see if he needed anything, and when I came

21 close to the house, I saw some kind of commotion there. There were

22 soldiers there. So I hid in the bushes and looked to see what was

23 happening. And I saw that they were chasing him, and then I saw them

24 taking the two of them away and taking them to a car. They took him

25 inside first and then they put Ivica in the car and they hit him as he was

Page 2422

1 getting in and I heard him moan, and then I saw them take them away.

2 After they had left, I went to his house and I saw that everything had

3 been thrown about and wrecked. He never came back.

4 Q. Do you know where he was taken to -- or they were taken to, Perica

5 and Ivica?

6 A. He was in Korenica; in Korenica, they took him there.

7 Q. Did they take both of them there, Perica and Ivica?

8 A. Both of them, yes.

9 Q. And what happened to them? How long were they held? What

10 happened to them, if you know?

11 A. I don't know what they did to them. Ivica was there for a month

12 or so, and Perica was there for nine months. Ivica was exchanged at

13 Manjaca and Perica was exchanged at Zitnic.

14 Q. Did you see them after they were exchanged?

15 A. I didn't see Ivica right away but I saw Perica as soon as he was

16 exchanged. He was in the room next to mine in Kraljevica when he came to

17 be with his wife, when they brought him there. He looked terrible when he

18 came back. He's very traumatised. He was a big, heavy man. He weighed

19 about 120 kilograms when he left, and when he came back he weighed barely

20 60.

21 Q. How about Ivica? Did you find out anything that happened to him

22 during his detention?

23 A. I didn't see Ivica. He was exchanged at Manjaca and he went to

24 stay with his wife, with his sister and his sister in Zagreb, and then he

25 went to Karlovac. He found accommodation there. I didn't see him that

Page 2423

1 often afterwards.

2 Q. Did you ever learn anything that happened to him during the

3 detention?

4 A. Everybody says the same; that they were maltreated, beaten. After

5 that, he had a stroke and now he's in very poor health.

6 Q. Okay. Were either of these men, Ivica or Perica Bicanic, were

7 they soldiers or policemen or any part of the military?

8 A. Perica's son was a policeman, but they two were like everybody

9 else in the village.

10 Q. What do you mean when you say they were like everybody else in the

11 village?

12 A. They were in the civilian protection, looking after the village.

13 Q. So they were not part of the military or part of the police?

14 A. No, no, they weren't.

15 Q. Now, I want to turn to what happened on the 7th of November 1991.

16 And we'll just take this one step at a time, and if you need a break, just

17 tell me, okay?

18 A. There is no need.

19 Q. On that day, on the 7th of November, were you staying in your

20 house?

21 A. Yes. I was at home in my house.

22 Q. Had you stayed in your house the night before? Or had you stayed

23 in the forest?

24 A. In the forest. But on that morning I came home to bake some bread

25 and to make something to eat and to take a shower. My husband and my

Page 2424

1 father went to the village of Vukovici to visit my uncle, my father's

2 brother, who was ill. Then they came back and our next-door neighbour,

3 Marija Vukovic, arrived, and she said, At Uncle Dana's house there is

4 shooting. Uncle Dana's house was about half a kilometre away from our

5 house, closer to the forest. And I said, Well, there is shooting every

6 day. We were standing there in front of the house, talking, when suddenly

7 a soldier appeared from the direction of Vukovici. And then at least 20

8 soldiers turned up and they surrounded the house on all sides.

9 Q. Can I just stop you for a second? I just want to ask you a few

10 details. What was your husband's name? And when was he born?

11 A. His name was Nikola Vukovic, and he was born on the 27th of

12 December, 1938, in the village of Poljanak.

13 Q. How about your father? What was his name and when was he born?

14 A. His name was Ivan Vukovic. He was born in 1934 on the 15th of

15 July.

16 Q. Okay. And you said they went to see an uncle in Vukovici. What

17 was his name?

18 A. Nikola Vukovic, nicknamed Sojka.

19 Q. Now, you started to tell us that about 20 soldiers turned up and

20 surrounded the house on all sides. Can you describe these soldiers in any

21 way; what they were wearing, how they looked?

22 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms and green uniforms. There

23 were both kinds. They were armed. They were mostly youngish men. And

24 when they captured us, they knew everything about us. They knew how much

25 money we had, where we worked. They knew about my husband's job. They

Page 2425

1 knew what our income was. They knew everything about us, and they asked

2 us for money. They asked us why we were dissatisfied. They said, "Look

3 at this lovely house that Milosevic has built for you and you don't like

4 it, and now Tudjman will give you a bullet in the forehead." They tied

5 the men's arms behind their backs. My neighbour Marija was there, my

6 daughter Mira, and there was Jelena, my mother-in-law. They put us under

7 the plum tree and then they insulted us, they interrogated us.

8 Q. What did they interrogate you about? What sorts of questions did

9 they ask you?

10 A. They asked us all kinds of things: Where the Croatian soldiers

11 were, where the policemen were, where we kept our money, where my

12 brother's children were. They asked us all sorts of things. My daughter

13 was 20 years old. They asked her where her boyfriend was. They told us

14 all kinds of things, offensive things. They said, Why don't you like

15 Milosevic? Why do you like Tudjman better? We just kept silent. We

16 didn't dare say anything. There was a maize field below the road, and

17 they took us there, across the road into that maize field, and then

18 Marija's son, Bosko Vukovic, came along with two or three soldiers, and he

19 was crying. He said, You've already killed my father, don't kill my

20 mother too. They then separated us women off and I asked myself, What

21 about the two of them? And they said, "We have to talk to them about

22 something."

23 Q. Now, you said that Bosko Vukovic came. Where did he come from?

24 A. From the village of Vukovici.

25 Q. Can you tell us about approximately how old he was at that time?

Page 2426

1 A. He was 17.

2 Q. The soldiers, these 20 or so soldiers, do you know where they were

3 from, where they came from?

4 A. I don't know. They came from the direction of Vukovici.

5 Q. And did the fact that they knew all this information about you

6 cause you to think anything about where they were from?

7 A. I think there must have been local people among them because they

8 knew everything about us. Somebody from the outside wouldn't know where

9 my husband worked, how much money he earned on the side, what our income

10 was. So there must have been someone who knew us well and who knew all

11 about us, some local Serb.

12 Q. Now, you told us that they separated the two men, your husband and

13 your father, from the group, and what happened next? What happened after

14 that?

15 A. They separated off us women on the road, and Bosko with us, and

16 they kept asking where are the soldiers, where are the men, and I didn't

17 have any male children and I didn't know anything. One of them had a

18 leather glove on his hand and he had a knife, and he said, "If you don't

19 know where the soldiers were, tell me, why am I wearing this glove?" And

20 I said, "I don't know." And he put his blunt knife at my throat, and he

21 said, "It's so that I won't get my hand bloody when I slit the throats of

22 Ustashas." And then one of them asked me where I thought his father was,

23 and who had killed his father while he was tending his sheep? And I said,

24 How should I know who killed your father? I don't even know who you are.

25 I think he was Milan Cvjeticanin but I'm not sure because I was so

Page 2427

1 terrified. His father had been killed. He was a Serb. Whether it was

2 him or not, I can't be 100 per cent certain.

3 Q. What happened after that?

4 A. After that, one man came up to us. He was older than the others,

5 and he said, "I don't want to see you. Just get lost." And we started to

6 flee towards the forest, and then he said, "I didn't tell you to flee that

7 way but to take the road." And the road was the road leading to Vukovici.

8 We came to the first valley and we stopped behind some trees there, and

9 five or ten minutes later, we saw them coming. We heard them coming after

10 us. Following us. And on a meadow next to that valley, a group from

11 Vukovici met with -- and the group that was going after us met, and they

12 said, "Have you seen them? Have you met them along the way anywhere?"

13 And they said, "No but you're late -- you're ten minutes late." And the

14 other man said, "Well, do you think it's easy to do that kind of job? You

15 left us to do the job. Do you think we can do it the way you envisaged?"

16 Now, what they did, I didn't see, what they did by Vukovici.

17 Q. The man who said that, who said, "Well, do you think it's easy to

18 do that kind of job? You left us to do the job," where had that man

19 come from? Could you see?

20 A. From Vukovici. From Vukovici they came from.

21 Q. Where were you when you heard this conversation between these two

22 groups?

23 A. Well, we were about 20 metres in the valley, lower down, and they

24 were at the top of the valley, but we could hear everything they were

25 saying.

Page 2428

1 Q. What happened after that?

2 A. Well, after that, they said, Well, since you didn't do what you

3 were supposed to do, maybe we'll still find some of them, so let's go and

4 set the cars on fire when we come across them. And then they went about

5 setting fire to cars and houses and set fire to everything. My house

6 burnt down on that occasion, and so did my shed, and everything that was

7 in the shed, all the cattle there, and it was just my brother-in-law's

8 house that remained standing because it hadn't been finished yet. It was

9 still under construction. I had some things there but they didn't set

10 fire to that.

11 Q. Did you see those buildings burning, your house and your shed?

12 Did you actually see them burning?

13 A. Yes. I did. Because we were by the plum tree, still tied up,

14 when they set fire to it, and they broke through the windows into the

15 house -- or shot at the house through the window and it was set fire to.

16 And they said, "See, Milosevic built the house and Milosevic is going to

17 destroy it. And what's Tudjman done for you? All you're going to get

18 from him is a bullet in your head."

19 Q. Did they take anything from your house?

20 A. No, nothing. Everything was burnt. They just found my money in

21 the hedges, and they took that away too.

22 Q. You said that some cars were set on fire. Where were those cars

23 that were set on fire?

24 A. Well, two of them were next to my house, belonging to my

25 neighbours, and they took the people out of the houses and the cars so

Page 2429

1 that they should not burn down with them.

2 Q. After these buildings and cars were burned, what happened? Were

3 you still hiding in the woods?

4 A. We were in the woods until 3.00, Marija and I were. And at 3.00 I

5 told my daughter and mother-in-law and Bosko, I'm going to see what's

6 happening, because we saw some cars moving off towards the village of

7 Plitvica. So we thought perhaps they had withdrawn, so I was going to see

8 what the situation was. And when we went back to our houses, we saw the

9 houses on fire. I went down by the road to see what was going on, to see

10 whether I would find anybody anywhere or, rather, find my father and my

11 husband, but I couldn't find them. Everything was on fire. And I took

12 two blankets from my brother-in-law's house, I returned to give the

13 blankets to my daughter and mother-in-law, because it was cold, so that

14 they could wrap up in them. And then we went back an hour later, my

15 neighbour Marija and I. And on that second occasion, I found my father

16 and my husband dead in the maize fields. And my neighbour, Danica Pavlic,

17 turned up - her house was below mine - and she said, Well, where have you

18 been all day? And I said, Well, heavens above, can't you see that there

19 is shooting? She said, Well, the house is burnt down, everything is burnt

20 down, and she said, Well, my father had been killed down there. And she

21 said, I saw two men who said we are going to set fire to Krivajica, that's

22 -- that was my father's name. And he said, Krismanic, his son-in-law,

23 will build another house. He has money. He'll bring [as interpreted]

24 another house. And then when she came she said -- both the houses were on

25 fire, and she asked me what I was doing there and I said, Well, Nikola and

Page 2430

1 my father have both been killed. Then the two of us went off to my

2 daughter and my mother-in-law, and I returned for the third time to take

3 two more blankets, and to wrap my father up in one of the blankets and my

4 husband in the other. When I got close to them, the -- I saw that my

5 husband's brains were shattered and that my father had -- skull wasn't in

6 place any more, that his eyes were missing, but I couldn't watch this any

7 more. I just wrapped them up, each in one of the blankets, to prevent the

8 animals from getting at them, and the dogs getting at them, and I left

9 them that way and left, and we spent the night at Marko Loncar's place, in

10 Roze's.

11 Q. Mrs. Vukovic, on that day, were either your husband or your father

12 armed? Did they have weapons on that day?

13 A. No, they never had any weapons.

14 Q. Were they wearing uniforms?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Were they a part of any military force or police or anything?

17 A. No, they weren't.

18 Q. Did they resist the soldiers in any way?

19 A. No, in no way, and they didn't have anything to resist them with.

20 Q. Did you leave Poljanak on that day?

21 A. They would come and go. But there was always a village watch in

22 the village.

23 Q. No, did you leave Poljanak after that happened, after you found

24 your husband and your father, did you leave Poljanak?

25 A. No. I didn't leave that evening until the 7th, in the evening. I

Page 2431

1 spent the night in Poljanak. The -- Roze Loncar's house was still

2 standing intact, so we spent the night at Roze Loncar's place, up until 5

3 a.m. And at 5 in the morning, I and my daughter and my mother and two

4 other neighbours set off towards the village of Lisina.

5 Q. Did anything happen there in Lisina on the next day?

6 A. Yes, it did. When we arrived, half an hour later a boy turned up

7 and said we had to flee because the Serbs had reached the village. We

8 started fleeing but we weren't able to go more than 50 or 100 metres

9 before they started shooting at us, and they said, Stand, stop Ustashas,

10 you're not going to escape, we are going to kill you to the very last man.

11 And as we were trying to escape, they shot at us but, luckily, none of us

12 were wounded. We managed to escape to the woods, and on the 8th we spent

13 the night in the woods. On the 8th of November, that is. A long way away

14 from our houses and the village.

15 Q. Was --

16 A. And on that day, on the 8th - yes, it was the 8th - they captured

17 Slavica Matovina in the village of Lisina, and Slavica, Svetic and Jure

18 Matovina and Zivko Matovina. Then they stopped shooting at us and they

19 took them away. And they stopped shooting at us once they had captured

20 them.

21 Q. Those four people who were captured, were they Croats or Serbs?

22 A. They were Croats.

23 Q. Were they soldiers, were they part of any military force? Were

24 they part of the police?

25 A. No, they weren't, none of those things.

Page 2432

1 Q. You told us earlier that Bosko Vukovic said to the soldiers that

2 they had already killed his father and they shouldn't kill his mother.

3 Did he ever tell you what had happened in Vukovici on that day?

4 A. Well, yes. He did talk about it and said that his grandfather had

5 been killed, and his father, and everybody who was at my uncle's place, my

6 father's brother's place. In fact, seven people were killed that day:

7 His father, his grandfather, two aunts and two neighbours from the

8 village. And Vukovic Dana as well. Seven of them were killed up there

9 that morning.

10 Q. And did anything happen to the houses in Vukovici, do you know?

11 A. Well, Tomo's house was burnt down -- his second house. Tomo had

12 two houses, an old one and a new one, and that day they set fire to Tomo's

13 house. Now what after that, we don't know. We weren't there, we didn't

14 see what happened after that, after the 7th of November, up there, but

15 when we returned after Storm there was not a single house left standing.

16 Q. Not a single house left standing in Vukovici?

17 A. Not in Vukovici, not in Lisina, and not in Poljanak either.

18 Q. Does Vukovici exist today?

19 A. No. It's been resettled, relocated to the village of Poljana,

20 because very few of the inhabitants remain, so they moved them.

21 Q. You said you returned to Poljanak after Operation Storm. Was that

22 the first time that you had returned to Poljanak after you left on the 7th

23 -- or on the 8th of November 1991?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you find when you returned? You said that not a single

Page 2433

1 house was standing. What did you find in terms of your house? What was

2 there?

3 A. Nothing; just rubble, ruins. A heap of rubble from the houses,

4 nothing else.

5 Q. I'm going to ask that the registrar there show you three pages of

6 photographs. And with the assistance of the usher, I'm going to pass them

7 out here.

8 Now, our version of these bear the ERN number, just for the

9 record, 04687687 to 7689. The version that the witness has does not have

10 the ERN numbers but it's the same three pages of photographs.

11 Mrs. Vukovic, do you recognise these photographs?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you provide these to the Office of the Prosecution?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Can you look at page 1, what's marked as page 1 of the

16 photographs. Can you tell us, what do those photographs show?

17 A. Picture number 1, that's my summer kitchen, or was my summer

18 kitchen, next to my house. It was an out-house in which I spent time in

19 summer, and you can see what remains of it.

20 This second one is the entrance to my house.

21 The third is the hallway. And my deep freezer in the hallway.

22 Picture number 4 is a stove by the house.

23 Q. Okay. We've actually reached a time where we need to take a

24 break, and I'm going to ask you some more questions about these

25 photographs after the break and we are going to have to figure out a way

Page 2434

1 to designate when you're saying picture 1, picture 2, picture 3, which

2 ones you're talking about, and maybe during the break I'll arrange to have

3 them numbered so that we can -- and we can figure that out so we know

4 exactly which picture you're talking about.

5 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm almost done, so I don't think we

6 are going to have a time issue after all. So I think if the Chamber

7 wishes, we could take a half hour break. That would be fine. After I

8 finish with these pictures, I have one or two more questions after that

9 and then I'll be finished.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Court adjourned. We will take a 30 minutes

11 break and come back at 4.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.

15 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mrs. Vukovic, during the break what I did with the registrar is I

17 numbered the photographs, and so that everybody else can follow along, the

18 way I numbered them is on the first page, the top left photograph is

19 number 1, top right is number 2, bottom left is number 3, bottom right is

20 number 4. And then the second page --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Second page is numbered the same way, and the third page is a

23 little different.

24 A. Number 4, yes.

25 Q. But turning -- looking at the first page, the picture that I've

Page 2435

1 marked number 1 on the top left, what is that of?

2 A. Yes. You can see the hallway and the entrance to the house where

3 that was, and in the hallway was a big deep freezer, which was burnt, and

4 all that's left is this burnt-out tin.

5 Q. The picture number 2, the top right, what is that?

6 A. That's just rubble, half the wall of the house.

7 Q. Number 3, the bottom left?

8 A. That's -- next to the house where there was a well.

9 Q. And the bottom right, number 4, what is that a picture of?

10 A. Ah, well, that was the out-house next to the main building where I

11 spent my summers. I would cook there, and those are the foundations of

12 that out-house in the yard, showing the burnt-out stove.

13 Q. Could you turn to the second page, please. Page number 2. And

14 there I've numbered it the same way, so picture number 1 on the top left,

15 what is that a picture of?

16 A. Yes. That's inside the house, the stove, and in the kitchen, the

17 wash basin -- that's where the kitchen was.

18 Q. The picture number 2, the top right, what is that a picture of?

19 A. All we can see is half the house. And this is the wall to the

20 other house. This is half the wall to the house.

21 Q. Picture number 3 in the bottom left, what is that of?

22 A. This is the entrance to the garage and shed.

23 Q. Picture number 4 at the bottom right?

24 A. That's the bathroom.

25 Q. Do these pictures show how you found the house when you returned

Page 2436

1 in 1995?

2 A. This was taken in 1995, the first time that I returned, when I

3 went home.

4 Q. When you returned, did you also find the bodies of your husband

5 and your father?

6 A. No. I didn't know they were there yet, and that day, when we were

7 there, I found the graves.

8 Q. I want to turn to the third page of photographs. And I've marked

9 these -- picture number 1 is the picture on the top, which is -- has no

10 people in it. Picture number 2 is the one below that --

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. -- and picture number 3 is at the bottom where the three people

13 are standing together. If you could -- what is --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What is picture number 1 of, please? What is that a picture of?

16 A. What you can see here in number 1 is the cross. We had already

17 found the graves then, and we lit three candles by the cross at the graves

18 of my father and husband.

19 Q. And what's in pictures number 2 and 3? Are those also pictures of

20 the graves?

21 A. Yes, yes. Those are the graves. Picture number 2, the two

22 friends who were with me, with my daughter, they cleared it up a bit so

23 that we could reach the spot. They pulled up the roots, cut the branches

24 with a knife, as far as they were able to, and generally cleared the area,

25 cleared a pathway to the grave.

Page 2437

1 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Vukovic.

2 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could these three pages of photographs

3 be admitted into evidence, please.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the three pages of photographs please be

6 admitted into evidence and be given an exhibit number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 259, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.


10 Q. Mrs. Vukovic, do you know if the Serb authorities from 1991, from

11 November 7th, 1991, until 1995, do you know if the Serb authorities ever

12 investigated or punished anybody for what happened in your village?

13 A. I don't think anybody did anything. And to the present day, not

14 all the bodies, all seven bodies, have been found.

15 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Mrs. Vukovic. I have no further

16 questions. Thank you very much for your testimony.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

18 Mr. Milovancevic?

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Vukovic.

22 A. Good afternoon.

23 Q. My name is Predrag Milovancevic, I am an attorney and Defence

24 counsel for Milan Martic, and according to our procedures, it's up to me

25 to ask you questions now. Since we understand each other and speak the

Page 2438

1 same language, could you please make a pause between my question and your

2 answer, for the benefit of the interpreters.

3 In the statement you gave to the Prosecution, you said that

4 Poljanak was a Croatian village and that the inhabitants of Poljanak were

5 always on good terms with the Serbs from the surrounding villages. And

6 that there was not a single -- almost not a single household where there

7 was not a mixed marriage. Is that what you said?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You also said that the situation deteriorated only after 1991.

10 Could you tell us, please, how these relations deteriorated. How did you

11 see that?

12 A. Well, they didn't come like they had come before, to the village.

13 We didn't go visiting each other or attend ceremonies like funerals or

14 weddings and things of that kind. When they came to the village, they

15 would come armed.

16 Q. Thank you, madam. Thank you, Mrs. Vukovic.

17 A. You're welcome.

18 Q. You said that when it was Easter 1991, some policemen were killed

19 at Plitvice Lakes and --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- that the Serbs had been coming to the village quite normally up

22 until that time, but after that incident on Easter, the Serbs stopped

23 coming to the village. And I'd like to ask you the following in

24 connection with that statement of yours: Do you know why it was that

25 after the Easter of 1991 that the Serbs stopped coming to your village?

Page 2439

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. You said that you stopped going to your Serb neighbours because

3 you felt unsafe, those were the times.

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. And do you think the Serbs could have felt unsafe as well?

6 A. Well, had they felt unsafe, they wouldn't have come armed, or they

7 wouldn't have come at all.

8 Q. Do you know that on Easter, the Easter of 1991, at Plitvice Lakes,

9 there was an armed conflict between the Croatian police and the other

10 police at Plitvice Lakes, and that two people were killed on that

11 occasion, one was a Serb and one was a Croat. Do you know about those

12 details?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Now, on television, on that particular day, did you hear about a

15 decision taken by the Yugoslav state Presidency to send a JNA unit to

16 Plitvice Lakes to separate the sides that had clashed and to prevent

17 further conflict?

18 A. No, I didn't hear that. I didn't listen to television.

19 Q. Did you happen to hear about a statement made by Stipe Mesic, who

20 was a member of the Yugoslav state Presidency at that time, to the effect

21 that he was opposed to the decision that the JNA should intervene because

22 he thought that the Croatian police ought to solve the problem on the

23 ground there.

24 A. I don't know that either because I was never interested in

25 politics.

Page 2440

1 Q. Do you remember whether on that particular day, when the clash at

2 Plitvice Lakes broke out, it was the Catholic Easter or was it the

3 Orthodox Easter?

4 A. It was Catholic Easter.

5 Q. You said in your statement to the Prosecution that after the

6 events on the Easter of 1991, the Serbs stopped coming to your village and

7 that a little later on, they started erecting barricades on the roads and

8 that it became more and more difficult to travel. Can you tell us,

9 please, what roads the barricades were erected, near what places?

10 A. The first were at Plitvica.

11 Q. In your statement, the one you gave to the OTP, you said that

12 after the incident that took place on Easter day in 1991, you no longer

13 slept in your own house because you were afraid, and you said that you

14 spent the night in the nearby forest. Can you explain to us whether that

15 was immediately after Easter or somewhat later.

16 A. It was right after Easter, and we gained a bit of courage when

17 they came in from Plitvice Lakes. The Serbs said we shouldn't be afraid,

18 that they were in the village and that they would protect us and that we

19 could feel safe sleeping in our own houses. However, when they started

20 capturing people from the houses and taking them off, we no longer felt

21 safe to sleep in our houses. And after the 28th of August, we never slept

22 in our houses any more.

23 Q. In your OTP statement you said that you listened to the radio. I

24 think it was Radio Zagreb that you mentioned.

25 A. Yes.

Page 2441

1 Q. You heard over the radio that the Serbs were killing, raping and

2 setting fire to houses. Can you tell us when you heard this? Was it

3 during Easter or a little later on?

4 A. That was later.

5 Q. Can you tell us whether reports and broadcasts over Radio Zagreb

6 spoke of the specific locations where this happened or were they just ad

7 hoc general reports?

8 A. It wasn't general. It was from Vukovar, Borovo, to --

9 Q. Thank you. In your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, you

10 said that you knew that the Serbs were shelling villages and that you

11 became especially aware of that after they began shelling Saborsko. You

12 explained that you were able to hear the detonations there. Can you tell

13 us when the shelling of Saborsko began? Do you recall that time period?

14 A. Well, approximately, it was sometime in June or July.

15 Q. When you say that the Serbs shelled Saborsko, do you know what

16 Serbs and where they shelled it from?

17 A. From Bigina Poljana, from Rodic Poljana, from Licka Jesenica.

18 Q. Do you know what units those Serbs belonged to who were shelling

19 Saborsko? They were evidently armed, but who did they belong to? Do you

20 have any knowledge of that?

21 A. No. I don't know anything about that.

22 Q. Thank you. In your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, and

23 in your testimony today, you said that your village was shelled on the

24 28th of August 1991, from the direction of Rodic Poljana, Bigina Poljana,

25 and Rastovaca. Can you tell us how far those villages are from your

Page 2442

1 village, Poljanak, where you lived?

2 A. Three kilometres, Bigina Poljana five, Rodic Poljana five or six

3 kilometres, Rastovaca about the same. But as the crow flies, there is

4 barely a kilometre between those villages.

5 Q. Do you know what units were in those villages from where the

6 shelling came?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. In your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, you said that

9 after the shelling began, on the 28th of August 1991, no one was killed

10 but that two houses were hit and that even before the first shelling,

11 Serbs would come from Plitvica to assure you that you were in no danger

12 and that they would protect you. Is that how it was?

13 A. Yes. That's true.

14 Q. You explained that those Serbs arrived in groups of eight to 12

15 men, that they usually came through the forest, and that initially when

16 they told you they would protect you and that you shouldn't be afraid, you

17 trusted them, but afterwards, you trusted them less and less. Can you

18 clarify why?

19 A. When they started capturing people, when they started torching

20 houses, we couldn't hope for anything good. We saw that things were going

21 from bad to worse. When they set fire to the village of Rastovaca, that

22 was a Croatian village, we no longer had any confidence, nor could we

23 trust that this would not happen to us too.

24 Q. In your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, you said that

25 the local Serbs from Plitvica, and you think also from other villages,

Page 2443

1 burst into Poljanak on the -- that they killed Tomo Vukovic and arrested

2 Milan Pavlic. Did you see those men who did that?

3 A. We didn't see them from close-up. We saw them from the bushes.

4 Milan Pavlic, when he came back from prison, told us who had captured them

5 and who those men were. We didn't see who killed Tomo or what soldiers

6 they were.

7 Q. When this happened on the 8th of October 1991, when Tomo Vukovic

8 was killed, did these local Serbs, as you called them from Plitvica, wear

9 uniforms or not; do you remember that?

10 A. They wore uniforms.

11 Q. Can you describe the uniforms?

12 A. They were green.

13 Q. When we say they were green uniforms, were those olive-drab

14 uniforms that belonged to the army?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which army, Mr. Milovancevic? If you can just

17 establish that.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. When you said that those were the so-called olive-grey uniforms

20 and that they were military uniforms, what army had such uniforms? What

21 was the name of that army? In other words, was it the JNA? That's my

22 question. Was it the JNA that had such uniforms?

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know

24 whether the witness can hear me.

25 Q. Mrs. Vukovic, can you hear me?

Page 2444

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Those olive-grey military uniforms, what army was using those

3 uniforms at the time? The Chamber would like to know that.

4 A. It was soldiers of the JNA and the old reservists who used to

5 serve in the army.

6 Q. Thank you. When you were describing this event on the 8th of

7 October, when Tomo Vukovic was killed, you said that fire was opened from

8 machine-guns and other light weapons from the direction of Plitvicki

9 Klanac, from the forest around your village, and that later on fire was

10 opened from the hamlet of Vukovici. Can you tell us who it was that

11 opened fire?

12 A. Who was it? Well, it was the Serbs.

13 Q. That's the conclusion you draw because fire was opened on a

14 Croatian village. Is that why you say that?

15 A. Yes. That's what I think.

16 Q. Thank you. You said later on they opened fire from the hamlet of

17 Vukovici. Who opened fire from the hamlet of Vukovici?

18 A. Well, it was the Serbs.

19 Q. In your statement, you said that after Tomo Vukovic was killed,

20 from the hamlet of Vukovici, on the following day you learned from the

21 people in the hamlet of Vukovici what had happened and you set out to help

22 them but the shooting started again and Tomo Vukovic was buried only three

23 days later. While this shooting was going on, was there any response to

24 that fire from Vukovici?

25 A. No, no.

Page 2445

1 Q. When you were explaining the events of the 24th of October 1991,

2 you said your neighbour, Jaga Pavlic, said that she had spent the previous

3 night in the house of Ivan and Mile Loncar and that they had hung, those

4 two had been hung the previous evening, and when you got to the house the

5 bodies had already been taken down and laid on a table in front of the

6 house. You also explained that you didn't know exactly how this had

7 happened. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In your statement, you also explained that the -- that Ivan Loncar

10 and Mile Loncar, father and son, were killed and that their son and

11 brother, Marko Loncar, helped to organise the funeral. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In your statement, in connection with the burial of the people who

14 were hung, you said the funeral was attended by local Serbs, including the

15 husband of Marko's sister, Nedjo Dujic, also Momcilo and Mico Grbic, Goran

16 Visnjic, and other Serbs whose names you don't remember. Can you tell us

17 who those Serbs were and where they were from who came attend the funeral?

18 A. From the village of Plitvica.

19 Q. When answering a question by the Prosecutor and in your statement,

20 you described the conversation you had with Goran Visnjic, who said that

21 if a single shot was fired, nobody would survive, something to that

22 effect. Was this conversation conducted before you went to attend the

23 funeral of those men?

24 A. It was after I returned.

25 Q. In the statement you gave to the Prosecutor's office, on page 3 of

Page 2446

1 your statement, it says that you said that before the funeral, Goran

2 Visnjic came to your house and asked if you thought it was safe for him to

3 come in, and he asked if there were any Croatian soldiers around, and then

4 he said those words: "God forbid that any of the Serbs get killed.

5 You'll all be killed and burned down, not even a cat would remain alive in

6 the village." Was that before or after the funeral?

7 A. The funeral was at home, and on that day we came and went five or

8 six times because the funeral was not in the cemetery. It was near their

9 house. And so I went to and fro two or three times. So whether it was

10 before or after the funeral, it's hard for me to remember. We were close

11 neighbours and I kept going back and forth.

12 Q. Thank you, Madam. One more question: This man who spoke those

13 words, Goran Visnjic, did he attend the funeral of the two who were hung?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Very well. Thank you. In connection with the tragic events of

16 the 7th of November 1991, you explained that at one point, while you were

17 at your house, you saw 20 or 30 soldiers coming down the path from

18 Vukovici, and you also explained that you thought that they were local

19 Serbs. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. In the statement you made to the Office of the Prosecutor, when

22 directly asked about your opinion that these were local Serbs, when you

23 were asked whether they were JNA soldiers or members of paramilitary

24 units, you said you thought they were local Serbs because of all the

25 details that they knew about you personally and your family, that somebody

Page 2447

1 from the outside wouldn't know that information. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When describing those 20 or 30 men, you said that they wore green

4 camouflage uniforms and that you believed that members of the regular army

5 would not have known the things they knew, and that you even recognised

6 some of them but because of the shock and stress you went through, you

7 couldn't recall their names; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell us how far Poljanak is from Saborsko?

10 A. 14 kilometres.

11 Q. Have you heard of the villages of Kuselj, Fontana and Panici?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How far are they from Poljanak?

14 A. Well, it's all before you get to Saborsko. Seven, eight, ten

15 kilometres.

16 Q. Would I be correct in saying that these are villages between

17 Poljanak and Saborsko, along the road leading from Poljanak towards

18 Saborsko?

19 A. Yes. That's right.

20 Q. Have you heard of the village of Borik and the village of Tuk, and

21 how far are they from Poljanak?

22 A. Yes. It's also connected to the village of Saborsko. It's all

23 very close to Saborsko, they just have different names, those villages.

24 Q. Slunj is a town, am I right? And how far is Slunj from Poljanak?

25 A. Yes. It's about 30 kilometres away.

Page 2448

1 Q. On the other side of Slunj is a village called Glibodol. Have you

2 heard of it and how far is it from Poljanak?

3 A. I wouldn't know how far that is.

4 Q. Some 30 kilometres perhaps?

5 A. I have heard of it, yes, but I couldn't tell you how many

6 kilometres away it is.

7 Q. Thank you. Answering the Prosecutor's questions, you described

8 how in the summer of 1991, APCs would come through and nobody obstructed

9 their passage along the road. Do you know whether these were military

10 armoured personnel carriers belonging to the then-JNA or did they belong

11 to somebody else?

12 A. I don't know. They were green. The JNA used to have those green

13 ones. Sometimes camouflaged ones would go through, like the ones there

14 are now, but usually it was always one and the same one. It would come

15 through every day, and that one was green.

16 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether in Licka Jesenica there is a

17 barracks and a depot or that it existed there at the time?

18 A. I can't be sure. I think there was something like that, but I

19 can't be sure because I wasn't interested in those things and I didn't

20 think about them.

21 Q. Are you aware that near Slunj there was a huge military training

22 ground?

23 A. Yes, I know about that.

24 Q. Are you aware that in Saborsko and all these villages I have

25 mentioned, Kuselj, Fontana, Panici, Borik, Tuk, Slunj and Glibodol there

Page 2449

1 were armed Croatian units in the summer and autumn of 1991 and that the

2 JNA went into action in order to carry out an operation to defeat those

3 Croatian units and that this was done in November and December of 1991?

4 Do you know anything about that?

5 A. No, I don't know anything about that.

6 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Vukovic. We are very sorry that you had to stay

7 on to answer our questions, the questions by the Defence. So thank you

8 for doing that and answering our questions.

9 A. You're welcome.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

11 Mr. Judge?

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. Mrs. Vukovic, may I just ask you two

14 questions, in two points. Your answers to the Prosecutor were in a way

15 clearer then when being asked again about that by the Defence counsel.

16 The one was the -- these uniforms of the people -- yes, this was on

17 transcript page 46, line 1. Just a second.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt your questioning?


20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I made a big mistake. Mr. Whiting ought to have

21 re-examined before we can ask questions. I'm so sorry.

22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Would you like to go ahead with your questions.

23 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I was going to say, no, no, I have no

24 questions on re-examination. I appreciate you asking, but I have no

25 further questions.

Page 2450

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm awfully sorry. It was a slip on my part.

2 MR. WHITING: That's fine, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay, these were only clarifications any way I was

5 asking now. Going back to this question, these 20 or 30 men we were

6 talking about, they were -- they wore green or -- and camouflage uniforms,

7 you said, and now later, it sounded like they wore green camouflage

8 uniforms. This is -- this was the wording of the counsel --

9 A. In that group.

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You said yes. So I just wanted to clarify: Was

11 it partly green, partly camouflage uniforms? Or was it green camouflage

12 uniforms? This is a little bit confusing but these were the words

13 Mr. Milovancevic --

14 A. No, no, not confusing, no confusion.

15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can you be so kind to clarify that.

16 A. Yes. In that group of the 30 or so men, there were all sorts;

17 elderly, younger, there were green uniforms, which the army used to wear,

18 and there were patterned or camouflage uniforms as well, and some of them

19 were -- had a scarf or a sock over their heads or something like that.

20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.

21 The other thing was the structure of the population, concerning

22 the population of this village of Poljanak. You were asked by the

23 Prosecutor if it was a Serb village or a Croatian village or a mixed one.

24 Can you maybe go back to this question. How would you describe that? I'm

25 asking because later, Mr. Milovancevic asked if it wasn't true that almost

Page 2451

1 not a single household in Poljanak was there without a mixed marriage.

2 You said yes also to this question, and this seems to be a little bit of a

3 conflict for me, or a contradiction to what you first answered about the

4 population structure of this village. So could you maybe describe it once

5 more.

6 A. It was a Croatian village and is still today a purely Croat

7 village. There wasn't a single Serb household in the village, but there

8 were mixed marriages. Young people would get married from people in Serb

9 villages and Serbs would get married with people in our village, and I

10 don't think there were more than five -- or rather 5 per cent of people

11 who did not have mixed marriages in their houses.

12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I see. Thank you very much. No questions. Thank

13 you.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

16 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I have no questions.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mrs. Vukovic, you talked of a number of villages

18 that were attacked and where there were no houses when you returned in

19 1995. Just for my own clarification, I know you mentioned your own

20 village, Poljanak. Can you mention the others, please.

21 A. Yes. The village of Poljanak, Kuselj, Saborsko, Korana,

22 Rastovaca, Celiste, Smoljanac, Dreznik, Rakovac, Lipovaca, Vaganac.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that all?

24 A. And then up to Slunj. Well, I would have to state hundreds of

25 villages, but that's -- those are the villages around my village, but up

Page 2452

1 to Slunj and Karlovac -- from Plitvica to Slunj and Karlovac, that's how

2 it was. Wherever there was the Croatian population, that's how it was.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: And these villages that you have mentioned are all

4 Croat villages?

5 A. Croat villages, yes.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, in these villages, were there people killed in

7 all of them? Do you know?

8 A. There were very few villages where there weren't. Yes, mostly

9 there were people killed in all the villages. In Saborsko, there is a

10 mass grave. At Kuselj there were people killed. In Poljanak, in Celiste,

11 Korana, Rastovaca, Dreznik, Vaganac; all those villages.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to ask you a very difficult question.

13 Are you able to estimate how many people you would say were killed in all

14 these villages?

15 A. A great many, but I couldn't know the exact number, but in our

16 village - our village is a small one, the village of Poljanak - eight,

17 ten, about 17 people were killed in our village alone.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to estimate the population of your

19 village at the time?

20 A. When the crime took place? Well, about 50, 60, 70 people that

21 remained, about 50. There were small children and mothers with small

22 children, they left on the 5th of September to Kraljevica and then the

23 rest stayed on.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Going back to all the villages, would you say the

25 people who were killed were in the hundreds or in the thousands or tens of

Page 2453

1 thousands?

2 A. Well, hundreds, I would say, as far as I know, about my village

3 and the surrounding villages around my village, about -- up to a hundred.


5 A. In the ten or 15 villages.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Now, in the ten or 15 villages, were all

7 these villages also destroyed? I mean, like we saw pictures of your

8 house. Were the houses in all these villages also destroyed like yours?

9 A. Yes, they were.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know if property from some of these houses

11 was taken away by the people who destroyed the houses?

12 A. Well, I didn't see that. Nothing was taken from my house, and of

13 all the houses that were burning, nothing was taken from those houses.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You mentioned the raping of people. Do you know

15 anybody who was raped or had -- did you hear of anybody who was raped?

16 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I don't know what the answer is going

17 to be to this question but if names are going to be mentioned it perhaps

18 should be private session.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Can I -- I withdraw that question. Can I

20 ask it slightly differently: Do you know of any number of people who may

21 have been raped? And if you know the number, what is the number? Don't

22 give me names.

23 A. I heard about it but I didn't see this personally myself, nor

24 talked to them. I did hear that there were such cases in Karlovac, when I

25 was there, from our area, but I personally didn't talk to anyone. Neither

Page 2454

1 did I see anybody rape anybody. They did maltreat us, they did beat us,

2 they did verbally abuse us, but they did not rape us. At least, I didn't

3 see this happen to anyone, so I can't talk about what I didn't see.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: How many rapes did you hear of?

5 A. Well, about six or seven.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've just told us now that they maltreated you.

7 Were you beaten by anybody?

8 A. They beat us, slapped us, yes. They did beat. They put a knife

9 to my neck. They asked me -- he asked me why he was wearing a glove, and

10 when I said I didn't know, he said, "Well, so that when I slit the throats

11 of Ustashas, not to get my hands bloody." I don't think you needed any

12 further abuse than that.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know of any other people who were similarly

14 treated like you were?

15 A. Well, that neighbour of mine, Marija, and my daughter, who was

16 with me. She was 20 years old at the time. My mother, they behaved the

17 same to them. They said all sorts of things in abuse and slapped us and

18 threatened us with knives, things like that.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: In the shelling of all these villages, do you know

20 whether the people who shelled all these villages wore the -- wore any

21 uniforms? You've talked about uniforms today.

22 A. Well, I didn't see that, when the shells were falling. I was

23 looking at shells falling but I wasn't near enough. I don't know what

24 they were wearing.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. At each time you encountered these Serbs

Page 2455

1 that you have told us about, were they always wearing a uniform? Those

2 that you encountered.

3 A. Well, the locals from Plitvica village, when I would see them,

4 sometimes they were wearing uniforms and sometimes they were wearing

5 civilian clothes; it depended. But mostly they were wearing uniforms, all

6 of them.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was it the same uniform that you described earlier?

8 A. Yes. Sometimes they wore the camouflage uniforms, sometimes they

9 wore the olive-green uniform worn by the army.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which army?

11 A. Well, the Yugoslav army.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the camouflage uniform, do you know who it

13 belonged to?

14 A. Well, I really don't know that. Some had scarves, some had socks

15 over their heads. There were just a few like that. But mostly they

16 didn't wear anything like that. There were just a couple with masks like

17 that.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: But these with camouflage uniform were in the

19 company of those in the green uniform? Were they working together, these

20 people?

21 A. Yes, yes, they were together, all of them together, yes.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know who buried your father and husband?

23 A. I don't know. I heard because my husband's sister, my

24 sister-in-law, her husband was present when they buried them, and he says

25 that he was buried by neighbouring Serbs from the village of Plitvica and

Page 2456

1 the army.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, just for my own edification, how long after

3 that attack on your village were you away from home before you returned?

4 A. I don't know how you mean, out of my village.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, you mentioned towards the end of the

6 questioning by the Prosecutor that when you returned in 1995, there wasn't

7 a single house standing in your village. My question to you is: For how

8 long had you been away from home when you returned in 1995 and found the

9 village in that state?

10 A. Well, I left in 1991 and returned in 1995. So that makes it five

11 years that I hadn't been there at all.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And in those years that you were away, where did

13 you stay?

14 A. I spent a year living in Scott Bay near Kraljevica, and after 2000

15 I lived in Karlovac.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who were you living with, please? Did you

17 establish a home there of your own or did you live with --

18 A. My daughter and I. No. I had a flat belonging to the Defence

19 Ministry.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Defence Ministry of which government?

21 A. The Croatian government.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mrs. Vukovic.

23 A. You're welcome.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions, Mr. Prosecutor?

25 MR. WHITING: Yes, I just have a couple of questions, just to

Page 2457

1 clarify based on Your Honour's questions.

2 Further examination by Mr. Whiting:

3 Q. Mrs. Vukovic, His Honour Judge Moloto asked you about all the

4 different villages where houses had been destroyed and people had been

5 killed. I just wanted to be clear: Was Vukovici one of those villages?

6 A. Yes, it was.

7 Q. And can you tell us, how did Vukovici look when you returned in

8 1995?

9 A. Well, my goodness, there was not a single house standing, and the

10 trees had grown up around the place, everything had been burnt down; no

11 hearth, no home, nothing.

12 Q. On November 7, 1991 you testified that your house and your stable

13 and out-house were set on fire. You also testified about some cars that

14 were set on fire. Did you see if any other houses in your village were

15 set on fire that day?

16 A. Yes. My mother's burnt down, my parents' house burnt down, and

17 some other houses in the lower part of the village but we didn't see that

18 any more because we had fled into the valley. All you could see was the

19 smoke coming up from the village. So I don't know how many more houses

20 were set on fire but I saw my own house burning and my mother's house

21 burning, and Dana Vukovic's house burning. I saw those three houses on

22 fire -- that's my neighbour's house. And Slavko's house too. So that

23 makes a total of four. Those four houses burning.

24 Q. Just to be clear, you saw those four houses burning, and did you

25 see smoke in another part of the village also?

Page 2458

1 A. Yes, yes. There was smoke in another part of the village too but

2 I don't know which those houses were that were burning that day.

3 Q. I think I understand.

4 MR. WHITING: Thank you again, Mrs. Vukovic, for coming to

5 testify.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

7 Mr. Milovancevic?

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps just one

9 question.

10 Further cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:

11 Q. Does Mrs. Vukovic know who the flat belonged to that was placed at

12 her disposal by the Ministry of Defence of Croatia, who it had belonged to

13 before that.

14 A. It belonged to a military officer who fled during that time.

15 Dragan Stupar was his name.

16 Q. That officer, was he a JNA officer?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

19 questions.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

21 Thank you very much, Mrs. Vukovic, for coming to testify. We

22 appreciate it. You are excused now. You may stand down. Thank you very

23 much.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

25 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

Page 2459

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting, I believe you have no witness.

2 MR. WHITING: That's correct, Your Honour. It went shorter than I

3 thought it would. And our next witness is ready to testify tomorrow.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Tomorrow?

5 MR. WHITING: That's right.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. In that event, then, court

7 adjourned until tomorrow. I think tomorrow we start at 9.00 in the

8 morning.

9 MR. WHITING: We do?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, we do.

11 MR. WHITING: That's a surprise to me. While I have a minute, if

12 I could, Your Honour, I alerted your legal officer about this, that -- and

13 I've spoken to the Defence about it. With respect to the second witness

14 tomorrow, who is MM-038 - I won't use his name because he has protective

15 measures - we have -- I'll make the motion tomorrow but I just want to

16 alert the Chamber about it, that we are going to make a motion that his

17 evidence be taken via 92 bis. The statement has already been done, 92

18 bis, the 92 bis procedures have been done, and it was admitted into

19 evidence in the Milosevic case. However, we will agree that he can come

20 for cross-examination. So in other words, his evidence-in-chief will go

21 in through 92 bis, through his statement, and he can be cross-examined by

22 the Defence. This is a procedure that was followed with this witness in

23 the Milosevic case. The -- I have consulted with the Defence, they have

24 agreed to this procedure, so we will make the formal motion for this

25 tomorrow. We have supplied the Chamber with the statements -- with the

Page 2460

1 statement, the 92 bis statement, if the Chamber wants to review it, but we

2 will make the application tomorrow.

3 We will also make an application to modify slightly his protective

4 measures. He has face distortion and pseudonym. We will -- we would like

5 to add voice distortion, and we will explain the reasons for that

6 tomorrow.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

8 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic?

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have just heard

10 that there has been a change in the timetable. We were to sit tomorrow

11 afternoon, as far as I understood it. So either I've made a mistake or

12 all the sittings were to have taken place this week in the afternoon, so

13 I'm not quite sure about that.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: No. I think you made a mistake. We were going to

15 sit in the morning tomorrow. There has not been a change,

16 Mr. Milovancevic. I'm trying to find the official court schedule, but I

17 can tell you that when I put it on my diary, 23rd, it was always in the

18 morning.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, then it is indeed

20 my mistake, so I do apologise. I just wasn't sure, and that's why I asked

21 the question.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was just as well the Chamber mentioned it

23 because all of you were going to be guilty of contempt tomorrow.

24 While we are talking housekeeping, I just wanted to say to the

25 Prosecution, and maybe Mr. Black you'll be able to answer this one: I

Page 2461

1 know that in a motion that you filed yesterday, you referred to the

2 remaining outstanding things that still have to be done relating to 92

3 bis. One little point you didn't deal with, and I just want to remind you

4 of it in case you forgot it: On the 15th of February this year, the

5 Chamber said the following: "The Trial Chamber further finds that the

6 statement of Witness MM-028 also meets the requirements of Rule 92 bis.

7 However, the Defence has raised objections on the authenticity of the

8 material associated with that statement. The Trial Chamber requests the

9 Prosecution to obtain a further statement from the witness addressing the

10 following questions ..." The questions were put and the Prosecution said

11 it will comply with that order.

12 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, we have complied with the order. But

13 you haven't received it yet, nor have I. The witness was interviewed, I

14 believe on Saturday or Sunday of last weekend. The statement hasn't come

15 back yet, but it has been done and we'll submit it as soon as we receive

16 it.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand. Thank you so much. It's just that

18 from what Mr. Black had said in the motion yesterday about these

19 outstanding things, this one was missing and I just wanted to remind him

20 of it.

21 If that is all, then Court adjourned, tomorrow 9.00 in the

22 morning.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.03 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of March,

25 2006, at 9.00 a.m.