Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3131

1 Tuesday, 4 April 2006

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Page 3151

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24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

Page 3152

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed, Judge.

2 Questioned by the Court:

3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. Witness, please, I have just one question.

4 You described your mission to check the route from Knin to Kijevo,

5 Cetinje, Civljani, Vrlike. And how often did you go and check these

6 villages? Was it several times a day, or was it five or six times in

7 whole? Maybe there was a misunderstanding and we can clarify that.

8 A. My visit to the area, the area that you mentioned, amounted to

9 four or five visits in total, not four or five visits a day. This was,

10 after all, some 50 kilometres from Knin, so we were not able to come back

11 on a daily basis.

12 In addition to that, there were also various checkpoints, and

13 people at those checkpoints wanted to talk to us, and we also attempted to

14 gather as much information as possible when talking to him -- to them. So

15 we had to stay there for quite a while. Therefore, these would be day

16 trips. And we didn't go there every day in a row. We would go there if

17 there was an incident, if something happened there, or when a

18 representative of the Croatian MUP asked us to do that. That's the

19 gentleman under number 10. Or we would go there when the army requested

20 us to go there if there were some conflicts between the citizens and the

21 army. Sometimes Mr. Martic would ask us to go there if there was a

22 conflict involving the Serbian residents in the area.

23 I think that on one occasion I went to the village of Cetinje on a

24 private visit. I was invited to a lunch there. However, things went

25 wrong, and I went back without having eaten lunch.

Page 3153

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. Concerning this list of persons, could

2 you explain once more about the gentleman number 8. Was he a part --

3 okay. Can we go in private session.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

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Page 3161

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16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Now, you mention Knin and a barracks compound

18 and training ground. About how many people in all did you see there?

19 A. I don't quite understand the question. Knin, are you referring to

20 the barracks, to the secretariat, or to some other buildings there?

21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Yes. I'm sorry I was not clear. I am referring

22 to the barracks. The compound that you would describe as the training

23 ground.

24 A. I wasn't referring to the barracks as the place where training was

25 provided. I said that we landed with a helicopter at the barracks, and I

Page 3162

1 went down on two subsequent occasions. But training couldn't be provided

2 in the barracks itself because the barracks was located in the town.

3 There were no grounds that could be used to train the troops, and this is

4 something I could not have seen. They probably had such grounds outside

5 the town.

6 As far as the troops present are concerned, there were very few of

7 them. I asked someone from my area to tell me how many there were there.

8 He said there were very few of us that were allowed in the field, at

9 checkpoints, in the forests, et cetera. Initially he thought that I was

10 asking him how many people from our area, our village, were present there,

11 but that wasn't the case.

12 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: When he referred to -- when the admiral referred

13 to Captain Dragan, who did you understand him to mean?

14 A. We didn't know his actual real surname for a long time. This was

15 kept secret, perhaps, or perhaps he just wouldn't tell anyone what his

16 surname was. Sometimes such tactics were employed. Only his real name,

17 Kapetan Dragan was used. We found out that he had come from Australia to

18 train special units in the area of SAO Krajina, the Autonomous Region of

19 Krajina. He had come to train Serbian special units.

20 At the time, it was said that Arkan's men were up there, too, but

21 I believe that Arkan was in prison in Zagreb at the time. During that

22 period, he was probably in Zagreb. Perhaps some of Arkan's men or units

23 were down there but not Arkan. However, I can't say anything about this.

24 But as for Kapetan Dragan, Captain Dragan, is concerned, he was in

25 the field down there while we were there, and in conversation this was

Page 3163

1 established, the fact that there was a certain Captain Dragan in the area.

2 And later on I was able to find out that his surname was Vasiljkovic.

3 I don't know how many men there were there, but from the

4 helicopter we could see a certain number of men. I couldn't provide you

5 with an exact number, but there were quite a few people there. The

6 helicopter flew over the area a couple of times, so we could see this.

7 Flew over the fortress a couple of times.

8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Please tell me who Arkan is or what were Arkan's

9 units? What's the name of the person, and what did you understand by the

10 term Knindzas?

11 A. Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, was a member of some sort of

12 paramilitary units -- or, rather, he was the leader of those paramilitary

13 units, of volunteer paramilitary units. They operated in the territory of

14 Croatia and later on in the territory of Bosnia and in the territory of

15 Kosovo. He had direct control over those volunteers. As far as I'm

16 aware, his command structure was well established, and he kept a tight

17 rein on his troops.

18 On one occasion he got married. I was in Belgrade at the time,

19 and a subordinate of mine went -- a superior of mine went to the -- went

20 to the wedding. I saw this on TV, and a day or two later when I met him,

21 because at the time we had no time constraints, we didn't have to go to

22 work on a daily basis, so when I saw him, I said, "Miljan, you went there

23 too." I was somewhat surprised by his presence at the wedding. And he

24 said, "Well, why not?" That's a private and personal matter. These were

25 informal conversations that we had. And we said that we were a little

Page 3164

1 hurt, affected by the fact that he had gone to his wedding, that he had

2 attended the wedding.

3 And there was another case. Unfortunately this man is no longer

4 alive. It's the son of friend of mine in Belgrade who is concerned. He

5 was a member of Arkan's unit. His mother has died. I don't know whether

6 his father is still alive. His two brothers were killed.

7 On one occasion my wife and I went to pay a visit to the family

8 since we were very close friends. We were good friends with his wife. We

9 were close friends with the mother of that boy who is originally from

10 Kosovo, from Pec. And in terms of culture and mentality, we were

11 identical.

12 But there is an incident that left an impression on me, a lasting

13 impression on me. The mother asked me to try and influence her son Boban,

14 to persuade him not to set off on some sort of adventures. Having spent

15 about five or six minutes in their house, Boban arrived. He was a very

16 fit boy. He trained boxing. I sort of asked him, "What are you doing?

17 How you," et cetera. I said, "I heard that you're going to set off on an

18 adventure," and he said, "Yes, I am." He said, "I'm going to live in

19 Bosnia for a while." I said, "What are you going to do there?" He

20 said, "Well, there are some people that I know that are going to go to

21 that area and try to make a little money." And then he suddenly

22 disappeared for a while.

23 And when he returned, he showed us a lot of gold on -- on some

24 sort of a leather apron. And he offered my wife a sort of necklace that

25 weighed about a kilo. He said, "Here's a present." My wife refused to

Page 3165

1 accept the present. He had a look at me, and I said, "Boban, my wife

2 can't wear this necklace. You didn't buy it. You certainly took it from

3 someone. How did you do?" He said, "That's easy in Bosnia." He

4 said, "If someone doesn't want to take such a necklace off, we cut their

5 head off. If someone doesn't want to take a ring off, we cut the finger

6 off." I said, "Boban, my wife can't and will not wear this."

7 This left a terrible impression on me. It affected me very

8 seriously. I felt sorry for his mother because she was a very decent

9 person. I left the house. I never went there again. I only went there

10 on one other occasion -- I only went to visit her on one other occasion

11 when she was ill in hospital. I later found out that he had been killed.

12 His hands had been tied up, and he was shown on television. (redacted)

13 (redacted) He was shown being

14 buried in a -- in a grave with his hands tied up. Later, his mother told

15 me that he went off with Arkan.

16 But you asked me about Arkan. I think I have been quite clear.

17 Unfortunately, I believe that some people were forced to go to those areas

18 for various reason. It's not as if everyone volunteered, but there were

19 volunteers who acted in such a way to the detriment of other people who

20 belonged to other ethnic groups.

21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And who forced them to go to those various areas

22 for various reasons? [Microphone not activated].

23 A. Well, probably some sort of an organisation that existed within

24 Arkan's units. I can't provide you with any specific examples, but this

25 is a conclusion that we drew, that we came to when speaking to each other,

Page 3166

1 when I discussed these matters with colleagues. People with criminal

2 backgrounds tended to volunteer.

3 In the case of Boban, his brother had previously been killed in a

4 sports hall in Belgrade. I went to his funeral. And this young man was

5 also well known in the municipality of Palilula for excessive behaviour.

6 Such people participated in such actions. Reasonable people, sane people

7 certainly did not participate in such matters.

8 MR. WHITING: Your Honour.


10 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I wonder if out of an

11 abundance of caution we could have a redaction at -- on page 35, line 1

12 and 2, where the last name of the individual that he was talking about is

13 identified. I think the story without the last name is sufficiently

14 vague, but once the last name is added, it could identify him. So I

15 wonder if that could be redacted, please.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May lines 1 and 2 of page 35 please be deleted.

17 Thank you.

18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very briefly, what ethnic group did Arkan

19 himself belong to?

20 A. As far as I know, he was a Serb. I don't know where his mother

21 and father came from. I don't know what their ethnic origin was, but he

22 lived or was born in Slovenia perhaps. I think that's what you could read

23 in the press. I wouldn't go into the details, but he was a Serb. He got

24 married in accordance with Serbian traditions. He was buried.

25 I went to the place where he was buried. I didn't go to his

Page 3167

1 funeral itself, but I did speak to a woman who went to his funeral, and he

2 was buried in accordance with Serbian traditions. He was probably a Serb.

3 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: This is my last question to you: You mentioned

4 in relation to a statement made by Mr. Martic that Yugoslavia -- sorry,

5 Yugoslav legislation was of a general nature and it applied to all six

6 republics and the two autonomous provinces and that within that

7 legislative framework each republic adopted its own laws, depending on its

8 own need and requirements, be it the Criminal Code or some other

9 legislation.

10 Now, what I want to ask you: According to how the federal system

11 in Yugoslavia was set up, could one territory try a person for a crime

12 committed in another republic, or did the jurisdiction exist only in the

13 republic where the offence was committed?

14 A. According to the Yugoslav law and the law of the other republics,

15 the principles of real and territorial jurisdiction, the principle of

16 subject matter and territorial jurisdiction was applied. This means that

17 the principle of the area where crime was committed applied. Only if the

18 individual concerned had committed crimes on a number of occasions in

19 several republics was there an agreement between the republics according

20 to which one would decide which republic the individual would be tried in.

21 And that was because of territorial jurisdiction and because of subject

22 matter, jurisdiction with regard to the crime and the area where the crime

23 was committed. On the whole, everything was based on the territory in

24 which the crime was committed.

25 Perhaps the lawyers present here could add something to what I

Page 3168

1 have just stated, but I think that in principle this is how things

2 functioned.

3 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Witness. No further

4 questions from me.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Judge.

6 May I just turn your attention to the refugees that you say you

7 saw in the hotel while you were investigating this matter. I know that

8 Mr. Perovic asked you questions about this point in his cross-examination,

9 but I didn't understand your answer and I would like to get clarity on it.

10 He asked you if any houses from where these refugees had been

11 moved were set on fire. I really never got an answer to this question.

12 Were they -- and I'm asking you to please answer very briefly. Don't give

13 me a long story. Were houses in Knin set on fire, houses belongs to those

14 refugees?

15 A. In my statement, I said that I went to Knin once again. After

16 that, I went to the secretariat building and then went back. That is to

17 say, that I didn't spend much time touring Knin. I think that the

18 gentleman under number 3 and I, I think it was on our way back but I'm not

19 quite sure but it's because it's been a long time, I think that during our

20 trip back we saw one or two houses burning or smouldering. I can't be

21 more specific than that. I can't tell you more about what the refugees

22 said about their houses being set on fire. Some five to six refugees told

23 us that.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I'm asking you about observations. Okay?

25 Now, you saw one or two houses smouldering. Did you see any damaged

Page 3169

1 houses as you walked past? I don't think you need to be in the place for

2 too long to observe that. Did you see any damaged buildings?

3 A. I didn't, because we travelled in a car. So we drove through the

4 area travelling at a speed of 50 to 60 kilometres an hour. So we were

5 unable to observe anything in detail. I saw further away the remains of

6 darkened houses. Now whether those houses had been set on fire a long

7 time before that or just recently, I don't know. But because of the

8 refugees, we sort of paid some attention to that but did not investigate

9 this in-depth.

10 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I really apologise, but I think we're

11 still in open session, and some of the microphones at the Bench are on,

12 and when the witness is answering with the voice distortion, that causes a

13 problem.


15 Now, were you travelling through this area in the day or at night?

16 A. It was daylight, as regards that particular day. In general, we

17 tended to travel during daytime, and as soon as the day drew to a close we

18 tended to remain inside.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, you know we do appreciate the detail, but

20 we do have time constraints, and I'm going to ask you to please try to

21 limit yourself only to the questions that I ask. If I need you to give me

22 a fuller explanation, I'll ask for one. And please listen carefully to

23 the question and try to get directly to the answer.

24 Were you aware of any people who may have died during this

25 incident?

Page 3170

1 A. You mean during our mission in Sibenik and Knin?


3 A. Yes. I remember that --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: About how many?

5 A. One person, a Croat. His name was Vinko Elez. This is what I

6 remember.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And do you know what became of the refugees who

8 were in the hotel?

9 A. We left them at the hotel. They remained there. We went back,

10 and they remained there.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You -- are you therefore not able to tell us where

12 they went finally from the hotel?

13 A. I don't know that. Our mission was concluded. We went back, and

14 they remained there.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: While you were there, for how long did they stay at

16 the hotel?

17 A. 15 to 20 days. I can't be more specific than that. About 20

18 days.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. That's -- any other criminal activity

20 that you may have observed in the area?

21 A. Other than that murder with the prisoners, and if we exempt the

22 cases of excessive behaviour on the barricades and the blocking of roads,

23 as far as I know, no.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. In your own judgement, what did you

25 observe the problem to be in this area if you were -- in one sentence were

Page 3171

1 to summarise your observations during that mission?

2 A. The problem was the co-existence of Serbs and Croats. It was

3 impossible in the area, at least during that period of time. Under the

4 then existing leadership on both sides, it seems to me that the people

5 were heavily manipulated with. They were misdirected by the leadership on

6 both sides. And it was a reflection of the situation in that area, and

7 the same applies to other republics in the former Yugoslavia.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you very much.

9 Mr. Whiting?

10 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no questions.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Perovic?

12 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Just several questions, Your

13 Honours, concerning the questions put by Her Honour Judge Nosworthy to the

14 witness.

15 If we can go into private session, please, just to be on the safe

16 side.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

18 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 Mr. Whiting.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 The Prosecution calls its next witness, Witness MM-036. It will

18 be handled by Ms. Richterova, and if Your Honours would permit me to be

19 excused, please.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are excused, Mr. Whiting.

21 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Shall we move into private session for this witness

23 as he or she comes in?

24 MR. WHITING: Yes, I think that's necessary. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

Page 3180

1 May we move into private session, please.

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Page 3181

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6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

9 Examination by Ms. Richterova:

10 Q. Witness, you have been granted certain protective measures in

11 these proceedings.

12 A. Yes. Thank you.

13 Q. You will be referred to only by your pseudonym, which means by a

14 number. And also --

15 A. Very well.

16 Q. Also, your image, when broadcasted, will be distorted so nobody

17 would be able to recognise you.

18 A. Thank you.

19 Q. When we are in open session, try to avoid any mentioning of the

20 place you are living or anything which could identify you.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If we need to mention such information, then we will go into

23 private session, and I will tell you now you can indicate or you can

24 provide such information.

25 A. Very well.

Page 3182

1 Q. With the help of the usher, I would like to show you a piece of

2 paper. Please have a look and confirm either yes or no, whether it is

3 your name and date of birth.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. RICHTEROVA: And if the usher could please show this piece of

7 paper to the Defence counsels and to the Bench.

8 Could this be please admitted into evidence under seal?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That document just shown is admitted into evidence

10 under seal. May it please be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit number 284, Your Honours,

12 under seal.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, can we go into private session just

15 for a little while?

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please go into private session.

17 [Private session]

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Page 3184

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11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Ms. Richterova.


15 Q. Witness, we are now in open session, so please do not mention the

16 name your village.

17 However, I would like to ask you generally. How would you

18 describe the life in -- in your village before the elections, before 1990?

19 How did you get along? How did these two ethnicities get -- got along?

20 A. We got along well.

21 Q. Did you -- so did you socialise together?

22 A. Yes, we did.

23 Q. Was there a time when the atmosphere change?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us when was it?

Page 3185

1 A. After the voting.

2 Q. In which way did the atmosphere change?

3 A. Well, it changed and no one wanted to speak to anyone else any

4 more. Some were for Tudjman and others were for Milosevic.

5 Q. In 1991, were you aware of the presence of any armed forces in the

6 area in which you lived?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who were these armed forces?

9 A. Well, there was the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.

10 Q. Did JNA -- did JNA come to your village? Did they pass through

11 your village?

12 A. Yes. After they had launched rockets, they -- they then passed

13 through.

14 Q. And before they launch rockets, before this, did JNA pass through

15 your village or were they present in that area?

16 A. Well, yes. They were with the Serbs.

17 Q. When you say they were with the Serbs, do you mean the Serbs in

18 your village or in the other Serb villages?

19 A. They were in our village with the Serbs there, and they were in

20 Sladovac.

21 THE INTERPRETER: In Sadilovac, interpreter's correction.


23 Q. Did Croats in your village, did they have any weapons?

24 A. No, they didn't.

25 Q. No weapons whatsoever, or did they have at least some weapons?

Page 3186

1 A. Well, they had small quantities of weapons but nothing

2 significant.

3 Q. Did Croats use, in 1991, did they use these weapons against

4 anybody in that region?

5 A. No, they didn't.

6 Q. What about Serbs? Were you aware whether they were armed or not?

7 A. Yes, they were armed.

8 Q. Did you --

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have an

10 objection I would like to raise.


12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The question was whether the

13 Croats were armed and whether the Serbs were armed. This is very general.

14 We can talk about the inhabitants of one village or several villages.

15 Whether the inhabitants were of Croatian nationality or Serbian

16 nationality, and I believe that my colleague should bear this in mind.

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, I will be more specific.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Ms. Richterova.


20 Q. When I was talking about Croats, I was referring to the village

21 where you lived. Now I'm asking about the Serbs in your village, whether

22 you were aware whether they had any weapons.

23 A. Yes, they did.

24 Q. Did you see them?

25 A. Well, yes, of course I saw them. They would bring them in in

Page 3187

1 helicopters.

2 Q. They -- they brought them with helicopters. When was it? When

3 did you see it?

4 A. Well, in 1991.

5 Q. Where did the helicopter landed?

6 A. In the direction of a place called Duman. That's where they took

7 the weapons, and that's where they hid them too.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ms. Richterova, are you rounding your point?

9 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, I can see that it's time, and I think that

10 yes, I agree, we can adjourn.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: If it's convenient. Maybe if you want to round off

12 a point, you can round off the point before we go.


14 Q. I wanted to ask the question where exactly this place Duman is.

15 Which village is closing to this place, Duman?

16 A. It's near Krslja and Lipovac and Sadilovac.

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's time to take a break. We'll take a short

19 break and come back at half past 12.00.

20 Court adjourned.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Ms. Richterova.


25 Q. Witness, before the break you mentioned a helicopter who landed

Page 3188

1 in -- in the place called Duman. Did you see this helicopter? Did you

2 personally see the helicopter?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Was there any sign on that helicopter?

5 A. I didn't see that, but it was transporting ammunition and weapons

6 for them.

7 Q. You said for them. Who did you see to --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who did you see together with that helicopter?

10 A. Well, troops.

11 Q. What kind of troops?

12 A. JNA.

13 Q. And where did they take this ammunition?

14 A. They were delivering it to the people. They were arming the

15 civilians.

16 Q. Witness, you mentioned this presence of JNA. When did they appear

17 in -- in the region, which month?

18 A. Which month? Well, I really couldn't say.

19 Q. Just approximately. Was it spring, summer, autumn?

20 A. Autumn.

21 Q. You also mentioned that they launch rockets, and you referred to

22 JNA. Do you remember when this shelling, when was it? When did it take

23 place?

24 A. Well, it was sometime in August. Perhaps on the 11th of August.

25 Q. What kind of weapons did you see with these soldiers?

Page 3189

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer? The

2 interpreter did not hear it clearly.


4 Q. Witness, would you be so kind and repeat your answer, because the

5 interpreters couldn't follow you.

6 A. Yes. What would you like me to repeat?

7 Q. What kind -- what kinds of weapons did these JNA soldiers carry?

8 A. Well, they had automatic rifles. They had some sort of

9 machine-guns, heavy weapons.

10 Q. What kind of cars did they have?

11 A. They were in tanks.

12 Q. You said that they launch these rockets in approximately August.

13 After -- or before August, did you see JNA in tanks passing your village?

14 A. Yes, they did pass through.

15 Q. Was there any shooting?

16 A. No. No.

17 Q. Again, repeating this, that they launch rockets, was there any

18 warning which you would receive from any side that -- about the rockets

19 being -- being launched?

20 A. Well, no.

21 Q. Was there a time when the JNA would stay in your village?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When did it happen?

24 A. When did it happen? Well, it happened when they entered the

25 village. On that occasion when they were in the village.

Page 3190

1 Q. I was more referring to the month.

2 A. Well, it was around October.

3 Q. When they entered the village, what happened to the civilian

4 population?

5 A. All the civilians fled. Only about 20 of us remained. Between 50

6 and 20 of us.

7 Q. Do you know where the civilian population fled?

8 A. They fled to Bosnia.

9 Q. And do you also know why they fled?

10 A. They fled before the troops, because the war. If they had

11 remained, if they had stayed on, they would all have been killed.

12 Q. How long this JNA stayed in your village?

13 A. Well, between seven and eight days, something like that.

14 Q. What did they do in the village?

15 A. They didn't do anything. They were there and then they set off in

16 the direction of Rakovica to take further territory.

17 Q. And after the JNA left the village, what happened? Did anybody

18 else come to the village?

19 A. Yes. Paramilitary units arrived.

20 Q. Do you know what kind of paramilitary units?

21 A. When the army was there, there was a radio post in my house. The

22 army was located in three rooms, and my wife and I were in another room

23 which hadn't been destroyed. The other part had been somewhat destroyed.

24 They would take me to the old house during the day, and in the evening

25 they would come to collect me about half past 7.00 so that I could go to

Page 3191

1 sleep. And then they said, "What are you afraid of?" I said, "I'm not

2 afraid while you are here." They said, "We know. When we leave, beware

3 of the reserve forces of those paramilitary units."

4 Q. So do you know who were these paramilitary units? Which ethnicity

5 of people they consist of?

6 A. Serbs.

7 Q. Did you know them personally?

8 A. I didn't.

9 Q. Were -- were they from the region or out of the region?

10 A. They were from everywhere.

11 Q. What did they wear? Were they in civilian clothes or in some

12 uniforms?

13 A. Uniforms.

14 Q. Which uniforms?

15 A. Well, like the ones that the army had. Uniforms.

16 Q. And what happened after they came to the village? What did they

17 do?

18 A. They did all kinds of things. They set houses on fire, and those

19 who were in the house remained there. That's what they did.

20 Q. Was anybody killed in your village?

21 A. Yes, 12.

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we go, Your Honour, into private session,

23 please?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

25 [Private session]

Page 3192











11 Pages 3192-3195 redacted. Private session.















Page 3196

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 Mr. Milovancevic.

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, we have now reached the portion of your

23 examination called cross-examination. The cross-examination is conducted

24 by the Defence. I am Defence counsel of Milan Martic. I will be putting

25 some questions to you which are of relevance to us. Since you and I

Page 3197

1 understand each other, I will ask you to make pauses between the question

2 and answer so that the interpreters can interpret. Do we understand each

3 other?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. It is stated in your statement that you served your

6 JNA service from 1950 to 1953; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In your statement, it also says that you had no schooling prior to

9 the JNA and that you learned to read and write in the JNA; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In addition to the statement given to the OTP, did you give any

12 other statements to the medical centre or human rights centre in Zagreb?

13 Do you remember that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you perhaps give a statement to the medical centre in Slunj?

16 A. I did in Karlovac.

17 Q. That was after the events?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you remember which year?

20 A. After the Operation Storm.

21 Q. Thank you. In the statement given to the Prosecution, you spoke

22 about the village where you lived, and you said that there were about 70

23 houses in there, out of which about 20 were Serbian. Is that what you

24 stated in?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 3198

1 Q. In your statement and also today when giving evidence, you said

2 that the relations between the residents of your village were good.

3 A. Yes, they were good.

4 Q. So people got along fine regardless of their ethnicity; is that

5 right?

6 A. Yes. Right.

7 Q. As a turning point in these good relations between the residents,

8 you mentioned the elections in 1990. And my question is: Were these the

9 first multi-party elections in 1990? Do you remember them?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. In your statement, you said that the Croats voted for Tudjman,

12 Serbs for Milosevic, that the Croats wanted Croatia and Serbs wanted

13 Serbia.

14 A. Krajina.

15 Q. Please wait for me to finish with my question so that the record

16 reflects who puts the question and who provides an answer.

17 So you saw the situation in the elections as follows: The Croats

18 wanted Croatia, and the Serbs wanted, as you just now told us, Krajina; is

19 that right?

20 A. Yes, Krajina.

21 Q. You also told us that it was then that you stopped communicating

22 amongst yourselves, the residents.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In your statement given to the Prosecutor as well as today in your

25 evidence, you said that the situation in your village was different in May

Page 3199

1 of 1990 precisely because of the elections, that you stopped visiting

2 Serbs in their houses and that the Serbs stopped visiting Croatian houses.

3 Is that what you said?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When describing this situation, did you have in mind only your

6 village or neighbouring villages as well?

7 A. That's how it was everywhere.

8 Q. Does this mean that after the elections in 1990 the relations were

9 disrupted, the relations between Serb and Croat residents in many villages

10 and places?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In your village were there multiple parties? Were there any

13 political parties established before the elections in 1990?

14 A. I wouldn't know whether there were any.

15 Q. In the statement given in Karlovac, given to the medical centre

16 there, you described this disruption of communication between the Serbs

17 and Croats, saying that your Serbian best man, this is somebody called kum

18 in your area, and this person, your best man, told you, "Yesterday we used

19 to drink and eat together. Today I no longer know you." Is that what

20 your closest friend, Serb friend, said to you?

21 A. No. No. That's not what he say. And he wasn't my best friend.

22 Q. Did your kum say that to you? Did your best man say that to you?

23 A. No. No. Somebody else did. He said, "We used to be best men,

24 kums, but we are no longer."

25 Q. Can you tell us then, please, what happened in your small village

Page 3200

1 of some 70 houses to make it possible for somebody who were best friends

2 before to stop seeing each other, to stop socialising? You say that you

3 used to be good friends but were no longer friends. What happened?

4 A. Well, the politics happened. Though pulled to their side, and we

5 pulled to our side.

6 Q. You say that you were pulling to your side. Which side was it?

7 A. Croatian.

8 Q. What does this mean then, that the Serbs wanted Krajina?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In the statement given to the OTP, you said that guards were

11 organised in the village; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You said that the composition of the population of your village

14 was a mixed one. Croats were a majority and Serbs were the minority.

15 Does this mean that you Croat residents had our own guard duty and that

16 the Serbs had their own?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were the Serbian and Croatian houses in your village mixed, or was

19 there one part where there was Serbian houses and another where there were

20 Croatian houses?

21 A. Well, there were areas where there were both Serbian and Croatian

22 houses.

23 Q. Can you tell us where these guards were mounted, the guards, for

24 example, of the Croats? Did you have checkpoints of any kind?

25 A. No. It was along the road that passed through the village in case

Page 3201

1 troops arrived. That's what the situation was like.

2 Q. Which army are you referring to?

3 A. Well, you know which army. The JNA.

4 Q. You said that was in May and June 1990, and then we come to 1991.

5 The JNA was the Yugoslav army at that time; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Why did you mount guards in the village along the road in order to

8 spot the rifle of the army?

9 A. Well, this was just a minor action. What can you do if they turn

10 up in tanks if you just have a few rifles?

11 Q. How far is your village from the Slunj training ground and from

12 Slunj itself?

13 A. 18 kilometres.

14 Q. Is there a large JNA training ground next to Slunj?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is there a permanent troop presence at that training ground?

17 Would that be a regular situation?

18 A. Yes. There's a permanent troop presence there.

19 Q. Was it quite normal for the troops to pass through the village on

20 their way to the training ground in the state of Yugoslavia?

21 A. Well, it didn't even -- they didn't even pass through our village

22 because that is not the route. It's only when the war broke out that the

23 troops came from up above, from Korenica, Petrovo Selo, and -- and from

24 Sadilovac.

25 Q. Can you tell us when the war broke out?

Page 3202

1 A. Well, yes. What do you mean?

2 Q. Perhaps I wasn't precise enough. Perhaps you could tell us when

3 the war broke out. I assume it was in 1991.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was it in the summer or the autumn? Could you be more precise?

6 A. Well, it was in the autumn perhaps.

7 Q. In your statement you said that the Serbs had split off, had

8 decided to keep themselves apart. You didn't visit each other. You said

9 they even started holding secret meetings. Is that correct? Is that what

10 you stated?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. How do you know that this was the case since you had ceased to

13 visit each other, you had stopped visiting each other? At the end of

14 September or the beginning of October, you said that the JNA took over

15 Lipovaca.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Prior to that event, a day or two earlier, the entire population

18 of the village had fled.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. That's what you stated?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You served in the military. As we can see, you know what regular

23 troops are. You know what reserve forces are. Can you distinguish

24 between the two?

25 A. Yes, I can, and I do.

Page 3203

1 Q. That day when, as you say, the JNA entered the village, were the

2 troops regular JNA troops? They were regular JNA units, is that what you

3 had in mind?

4 A. Yes, they were regular troops.

5 Q. Can you describe the sort of uniforms these troops who entered

6 your village were wearing? And you said that they even stayed in your

7 house.

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. My question was whether you could describe the uniforms they were

10 wearing. Were they wearing olive-drab uniforms or camouflage ones?

11 A. Well, camouflage ones. In fact, they had camouflage uniforms and

12 other kinds of uniforms.

13 Q. When describing that seven- or eight-day period during which the

14 JNA was present in your village, you said that on one day you spoke to a

15 JNA soldier who asked you whether you were afraid.

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. And you told him that for as long as they were there you were not

18 afraid; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Does that mean that you believed that for as long as the JNA

21 troops were there no harm would come to you?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. Can you then tell us why the inhabitants of the village fled from

24 the village before the JNA troops arrived? Why were they afraid? Who had

25 scared them?

Page 3204

1 A. Well, they were afraid of the army.

2 Q. In 1991 -- before the summer of 1991, Croatia had declared that it

3 would be seceding for Yugoslavia. When the JNA entered your village at

4 that time, did Croatia have an army of its own?

5 A. Yes, it did.

6 Q. Could you tell us what the name of that Croatian army was?

7 A. What was its name?

8 Q. Was it the ZNG, the National Guards, or some other name?

9 A. Well, it was some sort of a MUP force, Ministry of the Interior

10 force.

11 Q. This MUP force, were they part of the Croatian Ministry of the

12 Interior?

13 A. Well, that's quite certain.

14 Q. Where were these MUP forces deployed? Were they in village, and

15 were they present in the surrounding Croatian villages?

16 A. There were very few of them. Some of them were in Rakovica and in

17 Slunj.

18 Q. You say that there were such Croatian forces in Dreznik, Rakovica,

19 and Slunj.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you said there were very few of them. How do you know that?

22 A. Well, there were very few of them.

23 Q. Do you mean there were very few of them because they couldn't

24 confront the JNA?

25 A. Well, no, they couldn't. This army was the third greatest force

Page 3205

1 in the world.

2 Q. You said that the army, the JNA, arrived in your village, stayed

3 there seven or eight days, and you saw that they were shelling Rakovica

4 and Dreznik town.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did the JNA open fire on Croatian policemen there?

7 A. They had already left by that time.

8 Q. I apologise. I didn't understand you correctly. You answered my

9 question while I was still speaking. Could you just repeat your answer,

10 please?

11 Did the JNA open fire on Croatian policemen in Dreznik and

12 Rakovica?

13 A. Yes. Yes, they did.

14 Q. How far is Dreznik town from your village?

15 A. Three kilometres.

16 Q. Were you by the JNA tanks when they opened fire on the town of

17 Dreznik? Were you at home?

18 A. Well, they took Dreznik when they were leaving Korenica and going

19 to Petrovo Selo.

20 Q. You said that you weren't by the tanks when they opened fire but

21 the tanks were by your house. Were you in the cellar?

22 A. They opened fire from in front of our house on the church, but

23 there was no one there.

24 Q. Well, how could you have seen this? How do you know this?

25 A. Well, they were in front of my house. How could I fail to see

Page 3206

1 that?

2 Q. From a distance of three kilometres, they opened fire from tanks

3 on the church?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you aware of the fact that the range of a tank gun is two and

6 a half kilometres, maximum?

7 A. How would I know that?

8 Q. You mentioned some JNA helicopter. You didn't see any marks on

9 the helicopter, but you believe it was a military one.

10 A. Yes, it was a military helicopter.

11 Q. In response to a question from the Prosecution, you said that the

12 helicopter landed in some village somewhere. Can you repeat the name of

13 the village and tell us how far it is from your village?

14 A. It headed in the direction of Duman. It's a small place. And

15 they were transporting goods and ammunition there.

16 Q. Were you in the place where the helicopter landed?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Well, on what basis can you claim that the helicopter was

19 transporting what you say it was transporting? How do you know this?

20 A. Well, other people who had seen the helicopter told me about that.

21 Q. I'll rephrase this question. You heard from others that the

22 troops were using a helicopter to transport weapons and ammunition.

23 A. Yes. That's what they were transporting.

24 Q. And you said, in response to a question from the Prosecution, that

25 the troops was transporting ammunition and weapons in this helicopter for

Page 3207

1 itself, too, and they probably provided the Serbs with these goods.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So could we say that you have no direct information about all of

4 these events? What you have told us is hearsay; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. When you mentioned the territorial units, you said

7 that: "The JNA stayed in our village for seven or eight days. When they

8 left, several of us who had remained in the village were afraid and we all

9 fled to the forest and spent the night there."

10 Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. You said that later on some armed individuals arrived in the

13 village. You said that these were members of paramilitary units.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who were these people?

16 A. Well, they were called Martic's troops, Martic's army.

17 Q. What is a paramilitary unit, in your opinion?

18 A. Well, we called them reserve forces.

19 Q. So you are now saying that you called them reserve forces. Do you

20 mean the reserve forces of the JNA?

21 A. No.

22 Q. In your statement you said the Territorial Defence. Are you

23 referring to the Territorial Defence?

24 A. Well, that's the same thing.

25 Q. You said that you did not know those men, but do you have any

Page 3208

1 ideas as to their identity? Were they from the surroundings? Who were

2 they?

3 A. Well, how would I know? I wouldn't have known anything if there

4 hadn't been that radio post in our house. The young men said, "For as

5 long as we are here, you have nothing to worry about. When we leave,

6 beware of the reserve forces."

7 They would beat the people, set houses on fire, loot, et cetera.

8 Whoever stayed on would be killed, regardless of age.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have

10 no further questions. This concludes my cross-examination.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

12 Ms. Richterova.

13 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no questions.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

15 Questioned by the Court:

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I would have one question concerning these

17 helicopters.

18 You, first to the Prosecution, said that there would be

19 helicopters - that means not only one helicopter but more than one - and

20 you saw them. And now concerning the question what the helicopters have

21 transported, you then made that point that this is not your own view. You

22 had only heard of that. So I would like to know what did you see

23 yourself, and what did you hear?

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3209

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Excuse me, I'm not sure if I understand you

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you carry on, I see we are in open session

6 and we are mentioning names of places. Shall we perhaps go into private

7 session?

8 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes. And just to be on the safe side, I would

9 ask to redact page 28 from line 23.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we please delete page 28 from line 23 to the

11 end of that, and possibly the first line of page 29.

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: First three lines, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: First three lines of page 29.

14 And then after that, may we please move into private session.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3210











11 Pages 3210-3213 redacted. Private session.















Page 3214

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 Ms. Richterova.

13 MS. RICHTEROVA: It's the end for us today. The next witness will

14 be called by Colin Black tomorrow.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That being the case, we are

16 going to adjourn until tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in Courtroom I.

17 Courtroom I, quarter past 2.00 tomorrow.

18 Court adjourned.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 5th day

21 of April, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.