Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3673

1 Thursday, 13 April 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Doctor. May I take this opportunity

7 once again to remind you that you are still bound by the declaration you

8 made yesterday to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but

9 the truth. Thank you.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black.

13 MR. BLACK: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Examination by Mr. Black: [Continued]

15 Q. Good morning, Dr. Strinovic. At the end of your -- at the end of

16 our day yesterday, you were discussing the updated materials that you

17 prepared for us. Now I'm going to move away from that. I'm going to ask

18 you some particular questions about particular locations, and in

19 connection with that I'll show you a video and then a little later on a

20 few documents.

21 A. Thank you.

22 Q. First of all, I'd ask that we switch to the Sanction.

23 MR. BLACK: And for this, Your Honours, I believe it's best to push

24 the computer evidence button. I'm just going a little slow to make sure

25 everything's in order. Do we need to -- we can take a moment if we need

Page 3674

1 to, to make sure everyone's got the proper computer screen on, Your

2 Honour.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: What are we looking for? I'm sorry, I was --

4 MR. BLACK: In a moment I'm going to play a video. I was just

5 waiting because they looked like they need the proper screen to show it.

6 Now with the assistance of Ms. Walpita, if we can show a clip from

7 Exhibit -- this is from Exhibit 318, Your Honours, which was admitted into

8 evidence yesterday and this clip relates to exhumation and examination of

9 bodies at Bacin.

10 If we could see the video now, please.

11 [Videotape played]


13 Q. Doctor, just for the record was that who speak with the

14 interviewer in the first part of that clip?

15 A. Yes, correct.

16 Q. And did you yourself participate in the examination of bodies

17 exhumed from Bacin?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. This video's fairly brief, but does it accurately reflect the work

20 done on the bodies that were exhumed from Bacin?

21 A. For the most part, yes. It does give you a picture of what we do

22 and how when we are dealing with the case of a mass grave site like this.

23 Q. Thank you, Doctor. That's all the video I'll ask you to watch

24 today.

25 MR. BLACK: At this point with the assistance of the usher,

Page 3675

1 Your Honours, I'd like to hand the witness a binder of documents, and I

2 also have copies for Your Honours. These are 55 documents. I don't

3 intend to ask the witness about each one, although he has had a chance to

4 review them, and I'll discuss this with the witness.

5 Yes, one copy for the witness, please. And a gave a copy to the

6 Defence yesterday, Your Honour.

7 Q. Dr. Strinovic, while we're passing out the other binders, if you

8 could just take a moment to look through the index there, look through the

9 documents, and just familiarise yourself with them, please.

10 Dr. Strinovic, did you review these materials on Monday here in

11 The Hague?

12 A. Yes, correct.

13 Q. What kind of documents are these for the most part?

14 A. Well, I could say that they are practical examples of autopsy

15 reports, as we call them.

16 Q. How do these documents relate, if at all, to the information

17 contained in your updated list that you've provided and that you discussed

18 with us yesterday?

19 A. Could you explain your question a bit?

20 Q. Of course. Let me try to put it more clearly. Do the documents

21 in this binder -- are they related in any way to the information that's

22 included in the updated materials that you provided to the Prosecution,

23 the documents that we talked about yesterday in court?

24 A. Yes, certainly, because for certain cases, namely those cases for

25 which the institute for forensic medicine in Zagreb did not perform the

Page 3676

1 autopsies, and these are precisely these cases, we received certain

2 materials in order to be able to answer your questions and to be able to

3 send you the material that we did. So we had to review those protocols

4 and specifically the cause of death listed in them to find what was

5 relevant for you.

6 Q. If you look in particular at the first 45 documents, and they're

7 all tabbed, you'll see that 1 through 45 purport to be prepared and signed

8 by Josip Dujella. Who is Josip Dujella.

9 A. Dr. Josip Dujella has been a pathologist at the general hopped in

10 Zadar for a long time, and as such he did not perform only autopsies as a

11 pathologist, because else's a pathologist, but he has also appeared before

12 courts as a forensic expert and performed autopsies in Zadar and the

13 surrounding area. So Dr. Dujella did not have an official paper, a

14 diploma as a forensic expert but has worked as an expert, as an

15 experienced doctor, for many years and has performed autopsies and

16 identifications during the Homeland War.

17 Q. And in your opinion, was he capable of performing these kind of

18 examinations under the circumstances?

19 A. In my opinion, Dr. Dujella has without any doubt been capable of

20 performing those autopsies because he had done many of them before the

21 war. He has great experience in writing autopsy reports and is perfectly

22 qualified.

23 Q. As I said I'm not going to ask you to look at each you have the

24 documents in this binder but I'm going to ask you to look at nine or 10

25 particular ones. First, if you could please turn to tab 21.

Page 3677

1 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, this is 65 ter Exhibit number 1008.

2 Perhaps it could also be brought up on the e-court system.

3 Q. Doctor, what is this document?

4 A. This document is an autopsy report, that is findings after

5 autopsy, signed by Josip Dujella regarding Stana Vickovic which was found

6 in Skabrnja. From the protocol, from the autopsy report we see that a

7 gunshot wound was found on the head, and what is noteworthy here is that

8 this gunshot wound, one centimetre in size, that has another indication of

9 a gunshot injury has also signs of burn on one of the sleeves. Such a

10 wound also indicates the distance from the weapon at the time of firing.

11 Let me clarify. On the basis of the appearance of a gunshot

12 wound, we can determine whether it was inflicted from a distance or from a

13 relative proximity. If the mouth of the gun is on the skin or just a few

14 centimetres from the skin, we speak about blank-point range. Relative

15 distance is when the gun was a bit further away and we find a particular

16 tattoo mark on the skin resulting from such a wound and also burn signs.

17 If the distance was greater, then there are no other traces on the skin

18 other than the hole made by the bullet itself.

19 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, I apologise for not mentioning this in

20 advance. The way the binder is structured is that there's a B/C/S version

21 and the English is right behind it. You probably discovered that on your

22 own by now.

23 Q. Doctor, you may have covered this in your answer, but just to be

24 sure, specifically in regards to Stana Vickovic does it indicate the

25 distance from which that gunshot to the head was inflicted?

Page 3678

1 A. Not explicitly, but from the description that is given in the

2 autopsy report, it follows that the gunshot wound was inflicted from the

3 so-called relative distance, from what we call relative distance --

4 relative proximity. Sorry.

5 Q. Thank you, Doctor. And Your Honours, I would just mention that

6 Stana Vickovic was mentioned in the testimony of Neven Segaric. The same

7 is true, in fact, of the names that appear in the next three documents.

8 Doctor, could we turn to tab 27, these.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters request would it be possible for us

10 to have a copy or at least to show the English version on Sanction?

11 MR. BLACK: The interpreters have requested a copy of this or to

12 see the English on Sanction. I'm afraid I don't have another copy of the

13 binder, but could we perhaps put the English version on Sanction? Is that

14 agreeable to Your Honours?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. What is Sanction?

16 MR. BLACK: I'm sorry. Is on the e-court is what -- well, I

17 don't -- sorry, I misunderstood the interpreter's request. It's not

18 possible to put this on Sanction. We don't have the documents prepared

19 for that. I'm sorry.

20 THE INTERPRETER: E-court, whatever.

21 MR. BLACK: E-court. I'm having a conversation with the

22 interpreters, Dr. Strinovic. I'm sorry if that's confusing.

23 If we might put the English version on e-court, Your Honour, that

24 might assist the interpreters, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very well then.

Page 3679


2 Q. Tab 27 is 65 ter number 1014. If we could go ahead and turn to

3 that.

4 Dr. Strinovic, what is this document behind tab 27, please?

5 A. Again, this is an autopsy report for Krsto Segaric. The age is

6 not visible from this copy. We see reference of an entry gunshot wound

7 one centimetre in size on the left cheek, and there is a similar injury on

8 the chin below the left half of the lower lip. In both cases with both

9 entry gunshot wounds there is reference to burn rings from which it

10 follows that they were inflicted from relative proximity. So there are

11 two gunshot entry wounds on the cheek and below the chin -- on the chin

12 that are consistent with firing from relative proximity.

13 Q. Thank you, Doctor. Let's turn now to tab 33. This is 65 ter

14 Exhibit number 1020.

15 Doctor, when you've had a chance to look over that, please tell us

16 what this document is.

17 A. This is yet another autopsy report concerning Grgica Segaric, age

18 80, also from Skabrnja. It is said that on the left side of the thorax

19 there are two entry gunshot wounds, one above the other, each sized 9 by 5

20 millimetres or so, and there is a ring around them 3 to six millimetres

21 wide. So we have two gunshot wounds on the chest. And in view of their

22 appearance, they are consistent with firing from a distance.

23 Also, we see that there is an entry and exit wound on another part

24 of the body, on the lower arm.

25 Q. Thank you. One final document with regard to Skabrnja victims.

Page 3680

1 Please look at tab 41, which is 65 ter Exhibit number 1028.

2 A. This is another autopsy report concerning Ante Razov, age 36.

3 There is a reference to an injury of the left earlobe that was cut off by

4 a sharp object, then an injury on the right cheek in the form of an entry

5 gunshot wound, star shaped, two and a half centimetres in size, and the

6 exit was on the back of the head on the left side. In view of the

7 characteristics of the entry wound, it was inflicted from point-blank

8 range. So the mouth of the gun was leaning on the left cheek at the time

9 when it fired.

10 Q. Could you perhaps just read out the last three sentences of

11 Dr. Dujella's opinion at the end of this document, please? It begins

12 with, "The injuries inflicted with ..."

13 MR. BLACK: And if it's of any assistance to the ushers, it would

14 be on the second page of the B/C/S and the final page of the English.

15 Excuse me, on the third page of the English.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So you want me to read the last

17 three sentences, "in the opinion of Mr. Dujella"?

18 MR. BLACK: That's correct. It begins with the words, "The

19 injuries inflicted with." If you have trouble finding it, please let me

20 know and I can help you more precisely.

21 A. I think this is the sentence that begins with, "The gunshot wound

22 to the head was inflicted from point-blank range, and the gunshot canal

23 goes from the left cheek to the back of the head. On its way there is the

24 brain destroyed. The cervical -- on its path out, the contused and

25 heavily damaged parts of the cerebrum, cerebellum, the pons, and the

Page 3681

1 medulla. The injuries inflicted with cold arms evidently preceded the

2 ultimate fatal entry-exit wound in the head. The wounds were not

3 inflicted at the same time but in the course of a certain period of time

4 and by several criminals. Their aim walls not only the deprivation of

5 life but first, the prolonged subjection to physical and mental torture

6 and the humiliation of a helpless, innocent victim."

7 Q. Thank you, Doctor, and my thanks to the ushers for getting the

8 English version up there which helped the interpreters ---

9 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I believe there needs to be a correction to the

10 record. Well, I'd like to ask for clarification. Should it read "the

11 bullet canal runs from the right cheek towards the left cheek and

12 backwards to the left occipital area"? I believe it mentions the left

13 cheek, running from the left cheek, whereas it -- should it be the right

14 cheek towards the left cheek and then ...


16 Q. Dr. Strinovic, do you understand the question?

17 A. [No interpretation].

18 Q. Please answer.

19 A. No. We see a reference here. The gunshot wound to the head was

20 at point-blank range and the bullet canal runs from the right check

21 towards the left and backwards to the left occipital region.

22 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much.

23 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Dr. Strinovic, I'll now turn to victims from Bruska. And here,

25 Your Honours, I would simply recall the testimony of Ante Marinovic and

Page 3682

1 Jasna Denona. Doctor, if you could look at tab 46. This is 65 ter

2 Exhibit number 1120.

3 Tab 46, Your Honour -- or Dr. Strinovic, please.

4 Doctor, this document is a little longer than the ones we've been

5 looking at before, so please take a minute to familiarise yourself with

6 this document and then when you're done, please first tell us what kind of

7 document it is.

8 Dr. Strinovic, before we get to the substance of this document,

9 could you first tell us what kind of document it is, please?

10 A. This is once again a record which was obviously compiled at the

11 request of the court in -- county court in Zadar on site, and they are

12 records taken down on the basis of three autopsy reports.

13 Q. If you look at the first page in B/C/S, and it appears on the

14 second page in the English translation, who was the forensic expert

15 involved in this on-site investigation?

16 A. Dr. Josip Dujella.

17 Q. What are the names of the victims addressed in this document

18 [Dujella]?

19 A. Petar Marinovic, Krsto Marinovic, and Draginja Marinovic.

20 Q. Does the document indicate the causes of death of those three

21 victims? Perhaps we could start with Petar Marinovic.

22 MR. BLACK: And, Your Honours, this -- this discussion of Petar

23 Marinovic begins at page 3 of the English version and page 2 of the B/C/S.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For each of the above-listed

25 persons, we have a description which indicates the cause of death. So

Page 3683

1 with Petar Marinovic, for example, it says that on the clothing damages

2 were found two centimetres in size, four damages, and also injuries on the

3 right-hand side of the chest, the right side of the abdomen, and on the

4 skeleton fractures of the lower jaw, fracture on the left upper leg, and

5 the soft tissue was present only on the back and legs, the back portions

6 of the body. And if we compare these injuries to the slashes on the

7 clothing with the injuries on the skin of the back which were about six

8 millimetres in diameter and round in shape, one arrives at the conclusion

9 that they were gunshot wounds to the back. The exit wound was on the back

10 -- entrance wound on the back, sorry, and the channel runs towards the

11 front.

12 Is that sufficient? May we move on to the next case?


14 Q. Yes, please. Let's move to Krsto Marinovic. The discussion

15 begins on page 6 of the English and page 3 of the B/C/S.

16 A. Can Krsto Marinovic, there are multiple fractures of the bones of

17 the head, the skull, and multiple fractures especially on the left half

18 the skull, at the base of the skull in particular, and on the left upper

19 side of the jaw.

20 MR. BLACK: If I could just interject. This is found at page 8 of

21 the English, just to help the ushers follow along.

22 Q. Please continue, Dr. Strinovic.

23 A. Thank you. Fractures were also found on the upper part of the

24 left upper arm and also on the sleeve at the same point. There was a

25 fracture of one of the pelvic bones and vertebra and right lower leg with

Page 3684

1 holes on the clothes. So there was a fracture to the second lumbar

2 vertebra, also under the hole in the clothes, also already described, and

3 a multiple fracture of both bones of the right lower leg. And these holes

4 on the clothes and fractures on the bone indicate that they were multiple

5 gunshot wounds that caused this damage.

6 And the third person is Draginja Marinovic, the last case. It is

7 a woman. On her clothes in front holes were found up to one and a half

8 centimetres on the left-hand side. So that was one hole, one tear, and

9 two holes on the right sleeve. Also in the area of the 'kombine,' the

10 left upper leg, and underneath there were holes to the clothing and

11 multiple fractures of the right elbow bone, both bones of the right lower

12 arm, a fracture of the upper leg underneath the hole to her clothing, and

13 a fracture of the fourth vertebra and rib.

14 On the back of her clothing holes of one centimetre diameter.

15 These findings, and by comparing the defects to the clothing and the

16 injuries to the body indicates that these were gunshot wounds that

17 occurred from hand weapons, hand-held weapons.

18 Q. Thank you, Doctor. I think that's sufficient for this document.

19 Could you please turn to the next tab, tab 47, and essentially go through

20 the same exercise? And I think maybe even a little less detailed would be

21 sufficient. If you can just focus on the conclusion as to cause of death,

22 please.

23 This is 65 ter Exhibit number 1123.

24 A. Once again this is a report from the on-site investigation

25 conducted by the county court in Zadar. Dr. Dujella conducted the autopsy

Page 3685

1 for Dusan Marinovic and Roko Marinovic. With Dusan Marinovic it is stated

2 that on the basis of the appearance and size of the damage to the clothing

3 and the injuries themselves that this was a case of gunshot wounds. With

4 Roko Marinovic, once again by comparing the damages and the injury, it

5 emerges that they were gunshot wounds, entrance-exit wounds to the chest,

6 the thorax.

7 That would briefly be a summary of that report.

8 Q. Thank you, Doctor. I think that's all for Bruska. Now I would

9 ask you to look at tab 52 Your Honours this is 65 ter Exhibit number 1177.

10 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, through an oversight on our part -- my

11 part essentially, we don't have an English translation of this document

12 yet. It has been requested, and what I would propose is just ask the

13 witness a few questions about the B/C/S version. When the English

14 translation comes, of course, we'll put it in e-court with the rest of the

15 documents.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black.

17 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Dr. Strinovic, again just have a moment to look through this, and

19 when you're ready tell us what this document is, please.

20 A. It is a report of an on-site investigation on the 12th 13th and

21 14th of June 1996 conducted by the county court in Karlovac. Present were

22 forensic medical physicians Cadez, Gusic, and Balicevic. The place was

23 Lipovacka-Dreznicka near Rakovica.

24 Q. Let me ask you one question. Do you know those forensic medical

25 physicians? Are you familiar with those people?

Page 3686

1 A. Yes, Dr. Cadez and Gusic have been working with me for a series of

2 years and Dr. Drinko Balicevic is a pathologist from the hospital in

3 Zagreb, and for five years, from 1995, he was the individual who attended

4 most of the exhumations. And when the need arose he helped with the

5 autopsies themselves.

6 Q. Thank you, Doctor. I won't ask you to address any specific

7 individual here, but just looking through the document does it address

8 causes of death as well as identification of the victims from Lipovaca.

9 A. Yes, both identification and causes of death for each of the cases

10 studied, each person.

11 Q. Thank you. I think at this point we can turn to the next tab,

12 which is tab 53.

13 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, when we -- when we assembled these

14 binders, we actually ran out of tabs at the end, so I hope it's not too

15 confusing.

16 Q. Dr. Strinovic, it's the next document, and it has handwritten

17 "Poljanak-Vukovici" at the top. Are you able to find that document?

18 It's 65 ter Exhibit number 1180.

19 A. Yes, I have it before me.

20 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, this one does have an English

21 translation if you'd like to follow along. Again, the questions will be

22 general.

23 Q. Dr. Strinovic, take a moment to look at it and again please tell

24 us what kind of document this is.

25 A. That is record, on-site investigation conducted by the county

Page 3687

1 court in Zadar, and in attendance were forensic specialist

2 Dr. Drazen Cuculic who conducted the autopsy.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... are addressed in this

4 document, Doctor?

5 A. This is a settlement called Poljanak.

6 Q. And again I won't ask you to look at any -- to discuss any

7 particular individuals, but does this document address causes of death

8 of -- of those victims?

9 A. Yes. The report states the injuries and then the opinion given,

10 identification, and cause of death.

11 Q. Thank you, Doctor?

12 MR. BLACK: Your Honour will certainly have noticed I haven't

13 asked to admit these documents into evidence one by one as I've gone

14 through them. What I would propose, Your Honour -- well, let me ask a few

15 more questions and then I'll get to the issue of admissibility.

16 Q. Dr. Strinovic, I haven't asked you about every document in the

17 binder here in court, but did you have an opportunity on Monday to review

18 the entire binder?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Do all of the documents contained in this binder include

21 information that relates to the causes of death of the victims from the

22 various locations addressed in -- in this case and in the updated

23 materials that you provided?

24 A. I think so, yes.

25 Q. And based on your review of the documents in this binder, do you

Page 3688

1 believe these documents to be authentic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you, Doctor.

4 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, then at this stage I what I would ask is

5 that all of the documents in this binder be admitted into evidence. They

6 are all in the e-court, and what I would suggest is that I have extra

7 copies of the index that is at the beginning of this binder, and I would

8 just -- I think the most practical solution would be if they are admitted

9 is I could give an index to the court officer who could assign numbers

10 after court rather than taking up court time to do that, but I leave to

11 Your Honours, the procedure you prefer.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand what is it you're asking for.

13 When you say the court officer would assign numbers outside court hours,

14 is he going to assign numbers to each one of these reports, or is he going

15 to give a number to the entire binder.

16 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, either way is certainly fine with the

17 Prosecution. As I understand it, these documents, each individual tab has

18 been uploaded into e-court as a separate document. So the easiest thing

19 might be to give them individual exhibit numbers. We would be fine with

20 the binder receiving a number but think that would be easiest for the

21 court officer, Your Honour, to have a number for each document.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see the court officer nods. I'm not quite sure

23 what he's nodding to.

24 But anyway, any objection, Mr. Milovancevic? Thank you very much.

25 Then the documents in this binder are admitted into evidence, and

Page 3689

1 may they please be given an exhibit number if it is possible to give it

2 now quickly. If it is required that various numbers be given which may

3 take court time, the court officer is asked to please do that outside

4 court time.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The exhibit numbers will be

6 assigned outside of court time so as not to take up any time in court.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Perhaps now while

9 I'm thinking of it with the assistance of the usher I would just pass an

10 index to the court officer to make that easier later. Thank you very

11 much.

12 Q. Dr. Strinovic, thank you. I have no further questions for you at

13 this time.

14 A. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Black.

16 Mr. Milovancevic.

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Professor, good day to you. My name -- or,

20 rather, I'm Defence counsel for Milan Martic, and I'm going to ask you a

21 few questions linked to your testimony here.

22 When we're talking about a document relating -- or, rather, the

23 document relating to the exhumation conducted in Vukovici, and that was

24 conducted on the 13th of August, 1996, was on the 7th of November, 1991,

25 the B/C/S number is 04693958. Do you have the document in front you?

Page 3690

1 A. Yes. Thank you.

2 Q. On the list we have 10 individuals of which two were identified.

3 Isn't that right, Professor?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On this document it says, and you confirmed this, that at the

6 institute the body remains were investigated belonging to at least three

7 individuals; is that right?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. Can you tell us how many people from this list of 10 is on the

10 list of those killed and how many on the list of missing persons or are

11 they all on one list?

12 A. As far as I know, they're all on one list, but the fact is that of

13 the 10 individuals, only two were identified by name and surname.

14 Q. Thank you. When you say that they're all on one list, can you

15 tell us which list you have in mind, the list of killed, dead, or the list

16 of missing persons?

17 A. On the list of missing persons that I was provided by the

18 Prosecutor.

19 Q. Thank you. We're now going to move on to another document

20 relating to Lipovacka-Dreznicka, and it says that the person went missing

21 on the 28th of October 1991, and that the exhumation took place in 1996,

22 and it was 046939591. That is the B/C/S number. Have you found the

23 document?

24 A. Yes, I have. Thank you.

25 Q. On this list of the seven persons, all seven were identified. The

Page 3691

1 person under number 5, Brozincevic Mirko is the name, it says that the

2 cause of death was a gunshot wound. Isn't at that right?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Yesterday, in answer to a question from my colleague of the

5 Prosecution, you said that there were no visible traces which would

6 indicate the cause of death and that eyewitnesses had said that the wound

7 was a gunshot entrance wound to the neck; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In a situation of this kind, is it right for the forensic

10 physician to say that the cause of death was gunshot wound or probably a

11 gunshot wound or a third option? Can you tell us that?

12 A. Yes. As a forensic physician, I can say that I would -- in my

13 case I would say probably or most probably a gunshot wound. I wouldn't

14 say that it was a gunshot wound as a certainty.

15 Q. Did I understand you correctly again that in this item 5, which

16 refers to Mirko Brozincevic, it should be possibly or probably a gunshot

17 wound as a cause of death?

18 A. Yes. That's what I said.

19 Q. Speaking of the document relating to persons gone missing in

20 Bacin, that's a list of 108 persons, and at the bottom of this document

21 which is several pages long, you stated that 49 persons were autopsied; is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it 49 or 48? The English version says 48.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a document

Page 3692

1 in front of me in B/C/S which says at the last page, 108 missing in total,

2 autopsied 49. So we will remind the Professor with the following

3 question:

4 Q. You said there were 49 persons from this list and 44 from other --

5 plus 5. You said 44 from this list and 5 from other locations. That

6 would make 49. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. BLACK: If it's of any assistance, Your Honour, I can confirm

9 that it does say 49 which is the original, so it appears to be a type open

10 in the English translation. It should be number 49.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. It just says 48 bodies were

12 processed, but if you add up the numbers there under cause of death it

13 comes to 49. Okay.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Professor, yesterday responding to a question from the

16 Prosecution, you said that there remained 14 persons unidentified, out of

17 which seven with gunshot wounds, seven with unknown cause of death. And

18 you said you didn't know who these persons were. When you say you don't

19 know who they are, do you mean to say where they are from or where they

20 were found or can you clarify?

21 A. Those 14 persons were exhumed in the area of Bacin but have not

22 been identified.

23 Q. Those 14 persons, are they included in the total of 49 autopsied?

24 A. No. Those 49 autopsied have names and surname. 44 from the list

25 we got from the list of the Prosecution, five outside that number but also

Page 3693

1 from Bacin. That's what makes 49. And 14 remain unidentified.

2 Q. I have another question regarding the site in Bacin. On the list

3 we have 108 persons, 49 autopsied. Can you tell us about the remaining

4 persons from 49 to 108? Are they on the list of missing persons or on the

5 list of dead?

6 A. The rest of the list are on the list of missing persons, as far as

7 I know.

8 Q. Thank you. Regarding the document concerning Bruska, the 21st of

9 December, 1991, is the date of disappearance of the people, and the

10 exhumation was on the 26th of April, 1996. The last digits of the number

11 are 695. It is said in this document that another person was autopsied

12 from Bruska, Josip Marinovic, gone missing on the 10th of June, 1991. Is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Trauma is indicated as the cause of death, contusion and bursts in

16 the chest. How did you come to this conclusion? Is there background

17 material?

18 A. I don't have the record with me but those are details I copied

19 from the autopsy report as drafted by the doctor who performed it.

20 Q. Thank you, Professor. Those were all the questions I had about

21 the documents. I would like to know one more thing. Testifying in the

22 Milosevic case in 2003, you spoke about a certain number of exhumed bodies

23 related to Operations Flash and Storm, if I remember correctly. Can you

24 tell us how many persons were concerned then in 2003?

25 A. Of course I can give the information I know, it's 499 persons from

Page 3694

1 the area of Knin, 300 Gracac, 154 Korenica 27 [as interpreted], and

2 Zvanusa 18.

3 Q. Do you have any information as to which of the exhumed bodies are

4 related to Flash operation and which to Storm operation, or, rather, how

5 many are related to each of the operations?

6 A. I have to admit I don't have the exact numbers. As far as I know,

7 all that I have just stated is related to the Operation Storm.

8 Q. Professor, thank you very much. Those were all the questions from

9 the Defence.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have completed

11 our cross-examination.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

13 Mr. Black.

14 MR. BLACK: No redirect, Your Honour.


16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Dr. Strinovic, maybe one question concerning the

18 identifications. When you examined remains from mass graves, given the

19 long time between the death of the persons and the examination, did you

20 encounter normal or special problems in -- for identification? Could you

21 give us an overall picture?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me to take a couple of

23 minutes to explain to you how this service is organised and how the

24 service operates, the one that deals with mortal remains, on the area of

25 Croatia, from those regions from which people went missing, lists of

Page 3695

1 missing persons were made. That was very important, precisely because

2 later it was on the basis of those lists that we were able to look for

3 those people.

4 As soon as the lists were made, we started gathering so-called

5 anti-mortal data that later helped us with identification. We interviewed

6 the closest family and relatives, gathering the details that could be

7 important for identification such as clothing, personal appearance, prior

8 illnesses and conditions, any kind of detail that could be identifying.

9 And on the basis of that information, we compiled the database about

10 missing persons.

11 When the graves became accessible and when exhumations began, we

12 referred to the data collected before so soon a grave was exhumed we

13 started comparing with the database. We already had some potential

14 candidates. We were able to narrow down the possibilities, and many

15 people were identified thanks to the information gathered before, the

16 ante-mortal data that we had stored from before.

17 We were able to identify almost 80 per cent in this way using

18 traditional methods comparing these two parameters. In those cases where

19 such identification was impossible, later on starting with 1996 and

20 onwards, the DNA method was used to solve more complicated cases.

21 However, there are some cases that are simply impossible, primarily those

22 where the bodies have been completely incinerated, mainly in houses where

23 the fire lasted for a long time and the fragments of human bones were so

24 small that they were only identifiable as human bones but could not be

25 used for identification. In such cases when even DNA cannot help because

Page 3696

1 it cannot be isolated from such a bone fragment, the only possibility that

2 remains is to try to reconstruct through witnesses how many people could

3 have been in the house when it burned down, and based on witness

4 statements we can make some inferences about -- inferences about the names

5 and identities.

6 Sometimes bodies were found in wells, in pits, in deep and narrow

7 sites where the remains had spent many years in humidity or in water. The

8 bones were completely destroyed and identification was very difficult,

9 made even more difficult by the fact that all the bones were jumbled.

10 This is where DNA can be very helpful, because based on every -- every

11 fragment, every -- everything that is susceptible to DNA analysis, we can

12 arrive at the exact number of bodies and at -- and give them names.

13 So there is a whole spectrum from the simple cases where we are

14 able to identify then and there on the site who it was, especially when

15 there are only one or two bodies in a grave, to the most complicated

16 cases, the impossible cases where even the latest technology we have today

17 does not help.

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Doctor, in relation to firearm wounds, you spoke

20 of gunpowder burns -- or, rather, you spoke of burns on the skin and on

21 clothing. Do you recall that?

22 A. Yes, certainly.

23 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And you spoke of relative proximity after

24 telling us about point-blank range. Now, this relative proximity, what

25 distance would it be in metres? What range in metres?

Page 3697

1 A. As I have said before, when we speak of relative proximity, we

2 mean distances from several centimetres to one or one and a half metres

3 depending on the type of firearm and the charge itself, because not the

4 same -- different guns will fire the charge in a different way and the

5 flame will be different. But what we mean by relative proximity goes from

6 several centimetres to one or one and a half metres.

7 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Would that mean that when you say "at a

8 distance," it would be in excess of one and a half metres, or would it

9 depend again on the type of firearm?

10 A. Yes, certainly. It also depends on the type of firearm. But when

11 we say "distance," we mean the kind of distance that leaves no more

12 gunpowder burns, no burns at all, which is more than one and a half metre.

13 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising from the Judges' questions?

15 MR. BLACK: None, Your Honour. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

19 Doctor, thank you so much. Thank you for coming to testify.

20 We've come to the end of your testimony now. You are excused, and once

21 again thank you for coming. You may stand down.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I see it's time for the break and it

24 actually works out perfectly. We'll have our next witness here ready to

25 testify at quarter to eleven.

Page 3698

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting.

2 The Court will take a short break and come back at quarter to

3 eleven. Court adjourned.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I noticed there was a distortion, but I don't see

12 PS on the monitor. There was a face distortion, but are we in private

13 session? Okay.

14 Ms. Richterova.

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: So we are in private session, Your Honour. No?

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are not.

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: But the face distortion is on. Thank you for

18 clarification.

19 Examination by Ms. Richterova:

20 Q. Witness, good morning. You were granted certain protective

21 measures, which means you will be referred to by your pseudonym, which --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I interrupt? You don't want us to go into

23 private session for this introduction?

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: No, it is not necessary. I will go into private

25 session for the background information.

Page 3699

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


3 Q. You will be referred to by either your pseudonym or just by the

4 word "Witness." You were also granted facial distortion, which means that

5 your face will be distorted in any broadcast of public portion of these

6 proceedings. Do you understand what I said?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. RICHTEROVA: With the assistance -- with the assistance of

9 Q. With the assistance -- with the assistance of the usher, I would

10 like to show you a piece of paper. Please look at this paper. Do not

11 read it aloud, and confirm whether it is your name, date of birth, and

12 place of birth?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to tender this sheet into evidence

15 under seal.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document indicating the witness's name and date

17 of birth is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit

18 number and be kept under seal.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 379, Your Honours, under

20 seal.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you. Could we go briefly into private

23 session, please.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please go into private session.

25 [Private session]

Page 3700

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]


24 Q. Witness --

25 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

Page 3701

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Ms. Richterova.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I would like to refer to the map, to

3 the atlas, which is Exhibit 23, and Bosanski Novi can be found on the page

4 21, grid C3. This is in the right bottom corner of that grid.

5 Q. Witness, can you very briefly tell the Judges what was the ethnic

6 composition of the municipality of Bosanski Novi?

7 A. Bosanski Novi had about 40.000 inhabitants. 60 per cent were

8 Serbs, 34 were Bosniaks, Muslims, at the time. The rest were Yugoslavs

9 and others. And there were 1 per cent Croats.

10 Q. Within the municipality, were the villages and town mixed or were

11 there areas that were specifically Bosniaks or specifically Serbs?

12 A. The villages were mostly of one ethnicity. The town was roughly

13 50/50.

14 Q. Before 1990, what was the relationship between various

15 ethnicities?

16 A. Very solid. There were no incidents or problems on those grounds.

17 Q. Did people of various ethnicities socialise, let's say within --

18 in villages which were just mono-ethnic with villages of people of other

19 ethnicities?

20 A. In the villages a little less, but in the town there were a lot of

21 mixed marriages, so you didn't know who was what. In villages they would

22 socialise a little less. They were more closed environments than towns.

23 Q. Did there come a time when the atmosphere changed?

24 A. Yes. When the war in Croatia broke out, yes, things did change.

25 And during the negotiations while the presidents of the republics

Page 3702

1 discussed the status of Yugoslavia and so on.

2 Q. Can you tell he is what changes were those in particular?

3 A. Well, the mono-ethnic environments and villages closed themselves

4 off more and more. Some barricades were erected. There were village

5 watches, and people contacted less with each other and amongst each

6 other.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we go for a second into private session?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3703

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


6 Q. Witness, what were the results of the elections in the

7 municipality of Bosanski Novi?

8 A. The SDS, the Serbian Democratic Party, won about 60 per cent of

9 the votes, the Party of Democratic Action 28, and the rest, there was one

10 deputy which was the league of -- the Youth Alliance and the Liberals.

11 There were some of the reformists of Ante Markovic and the former League

12 of Communists of Yugoslavia.

13 Q. Can you describe the work of the Assembly? We can -- we heard

14 that the SDS party got 60 per cent, SDA got about 28 per cent. How was

15 the work of the party? Was there a cooperation or were there any

16 problems?

17 A. At the beginning it was quite good cooperation, because the

18 agreement was that the SDS and SDA should divide up power and authority,

19 and where the SDS this 30 per cent of seats in some other municipalities

20 would be given certain positions in executive power, and that's what

21 happened in Bosanski Novi where we were.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly be asked to approach

23 the microphone? Thank you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So at the beginning, everything

25 functioned very well.

Page 3704

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Is it possible for you to move slightly

2 forward towards the microphone? We understand the problem that you have,

3 Witness, but if there is a possibility just to move slightly and bring the

4 microphone closer to you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this will be better.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


8 Q. As you said, at the beginning everything functioned very well.

9 Did there come a time when it didn't work or didn't function very well?

10 A. Well, the problems started when the war in Croatia broke out,

11 specifically when the army attacked Hrvatska Kostajnica and several

12 Croatian villages, but that was in Croatia. There's just a river dividing

13 the border between Bosnia and Croatia, the River Una. And that's when

14 certain problems started to arise. Towards the end of 1991, everybody,

15 all the Bosniaks who were in leadership posts were replaced with Serbs.

16 Q. You -- just to clarify one thing, you mentioned that army attack

17 Hrvatska Kostajnica. Can you tell us which army do you refer to?

18 A. It was called the Yugoslav People's Army at the time, but how far

19 it was Yugoslav is a debatable point, because when the war broke out in

20 Slovenia with other ethnic groups, they didn't want to let the army and

21 especially officers. When the war broke out in Croatia, 90 per cent of

22 that army was a Serb army because the new recruits ceased to go to the

23 army, and their places were filled with reservists who mostly came from

24 Serbia. And among others, that was what happened.

25 Q. Going back to the work of the Assembly, were there any proposals

Page 3705

1 made by SDS which would be for you, for the SDA, or other parties

2 unacceptable?

3 A. Well, the first problems began when there was new regionalisation

4 afoot in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The SDS endeavoured to have all Serb

5 majority municipalities form one region. That was something we'd already

6 seen in Croatia. When they separated from Croatia there was a compact

7 territory which they defended by force of arms.

8 Q. When you say that they separated from Croatia and they defended by

9 force of arms, can you be specific again? Which regions do you have in

10 your mind?

11 A. Slavonia, part of Slavonia, and the whole of the area around Knin

12 along the border with Bosnia-Herzegovina, along that border belt. So

13 Zagreb and Bosnia-Herzegovina. They were completely separated

14 geographically because those were places where the Serbs were in the

15 majority, and with the help of the army they cleansed the region of Croats

16 and it became a compact hole. Knin, Hrvatska Kostajnica, Dvor is

17 characteristic for Bosanski Novi because we're only divided by a river

18 there. Two towns on the banks of the same river.

19 Q. Was this region called -- I'm sorry. I will rephrase my question.

20 Was there any name for this region which was separated from the rest of

21 Croatia?

22 A. It was -- they called it Srpska Krajina.

23 Q. You also mentioned that SDS in Bosanski Novi, there was this issue

24 of regionalisation in Bosanski Novi. What exactly they wanted to achieve?

25 A. Well, before the war Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say during

Page 3706

1 communism, it had six regions, Yugoslav -- some of the municipalities in

2 the Bihac area, municipality where there was a Serb majority, they

3 endeavoured to join on to the Banja Luka region where they were in power

4 in the municipality to create a region there, the aim of which -- well, we

5 saw what the aim of that was later on.

6 Q. So can you -- can you again be more specific and say what the aim

7 was?

8 A. Well, their aim, they wanted to remain in Yugoslavia at all costs.

9 That was part of the territory where they had created -- where the army

10 had come, where they took over power, where they had absolute power, and

11 from where they managed their war operations. In the other Serb

12 municipalities there wasn't a Serb majority.

13 Q. Going back to the work of the Assembly and politicians, can you

14 tell us briefly who were the major politicians on the SDS side and then on

15 the SDA side? What were their names?

16 A. Well, specifically in the SDS the alpha and omega of that was

17 Gavro Bogic. After him you had Radovan Pasic, Umbaro Dami [phoen],

18 Domazet [phoen] Nikola, Dejanovic, Nazalac [phoen], Nikola Graunic

19 [phoen]. That was the sort of elite from the SDS.

20 Q. And in the SDA who were the major --

21 A. In the SDA the president was Hamed Agic, I think he was the number

22 one man. Resad Berberovic, Dzafer Kapetanovic, Arim Bajrektarevic back

23 and so on. Izet Musemuvic [phoen], Hasim Valjevac, and that was expanded

24 with the Main Board later on and the Presidencies of the branch offices.

25 Q. You mention this Gavro Bogic. Who was he?

Page 3707

1 A. Gavro Bogic was a deputy in the state Assembly. I think he was an

2 economist by profession, and he was the director general of a firm called

3 Jadra [sic]. Before that I think he was the managing director in

4 Lignosper, but before the war he was the director general of the Japra

5 firm, which is a firm dealing in mining and construction engineering.

6 Q. You said that Gavro Bogic was the alpha and omega in the

7 municipality. In which way? Can you specify what you meant stating that

8 he was alpha and omega?

9 A. Mostly you had to ask him about everything. Pasic Radovan was a

10 relatively young man and he wasn't in the League of Communists, so this

11 was someone new, but Gavro Bogic managed everything. Whenever a problem

12 cropped up in the Assembly, for instance, he had the final say, and his

13 proposals were accepted by the SDS, and in inter-party agreements,

14 whenever any problems arose he would settle them and decide the way he

15 wanted to.

16 Q. You mention this Pasic. Who was Radomir Pasic?

17 A. Radomir Pasic was a lawyer. He had graduated in law. He was born

18 in 1964. He was a young man of 28 at the time. For a time he worked as a

19 lawyer in a department store called Jedinstvo. He was a young man without

20 a pedigree in the League of Communists, and I think that's why he came to

21 be the president of the SDS. And later on he was president of the Crisis

22 Staff in the war.

23 Q. And did he have also a position in the Municipal Assembly?

24 A. Well, he was the mayor. It wasn't referred to as mayor, but

25 that's what he was, the mayor of the town.

Page 3708

1 Q. Now I would like to talk a little bit about propaganda. After the

2 war started in Croatia, were you aware of any propaganda speeches on

3 either side, on the side of Serbs or on the side of Muslims?

4 A. Well, on the Serb side all their journalists, everybody joined in

5 the system, and they started invoking the past where a million Serbs were

6 killed in Jasenovac. They talked about the Ustasha authorities. They

7 were afraid that that would happen again. And in Bosanski Novi, Bera

8 Dragan was a journalist himself and he was very prominent in things like

9 that. He presented various lies in order to create this sort of fear

10 amongst the Serb population.

11 Q. Was there any programme -- we're receiving B/C/S interpretation.

12 I think it's now -- were there any programmes on radio that caused --

13 caused you concern?

14 A. The morning broadcast, but Bera Dragan was the host and he would

15 begin by saying, "Good morning, Kraj -- people of the Krajin -- the

16 Krajisnici," and he thought -- he spoke about the unification of all Serb

17 lands and so on --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat what he just said,

19 please?


21 Q. Excuse me. Witness, the interpreter didn't catch what you said.

22 Can you repeat it after what you said that, that this Bera Dragan had

23 programme in which he always -- he began by saying, "Good morning, people

24 of the Krajisnici"? What did you say after that? "He spoke about the

25 unification of all Serb lands," and ...

Page 3709

1 A. There were a lot of rumours amongst the people that this sort of

2 unification of some Serb lands was being proposed and that was where the

3 krajinas in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in Croatia, that area. And at the

4 time the overall Croatian Krajina was cleansed of all other ethnic groups

5 except for the Serbs.

6 Q. Was this issue ever discussed at the Municipal Assembly, the

7 possibilities of these two krajinas to be joined?

8 A. There was quite a lot of discussion when they tried to impose this

9 new regionalisation, and everybody put forward their arguments for and

10 against. What they needed was a decision, a two-third majority decision

11 which they did not have. They were only able to implement the decision by

12 exerting pressure on Mladen, the youth representative. They threatened

13 his father saying they would set fire to his motel and throw explosives on

14 it. So he voted in favour. So there was a lot of comment of this type

15 going on.

16 Q. While you were still in -- in Bosanski Novi, was there any

17 progress in relation to this proposal of joining those two krajinas?

18 A. Well, that was functioning to a great extent. On the military

19 plain it was going ahead full speed. The Serbs responded to the

20 mobilisation call in Bosnia-Herzegovina, they were sent to Hrvatska

21 Grubica [as interpreted]. And on the economic and political plain, well,

22 the economy was so bad that it wasn't important any more. It was the

23 military aspect that game to the fore and that was functioning properly at

24 the time.

25 Q. Talking about army, were there any armed formation which would

Page 3710

1 come to -- to the municipality of Bosanski Novi from the Croatian side?

2 A. When the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina, yes, specifically

3 the cleansing of Muslims along the Japra River valley, units from Kninva

4 and Dvor Na Uni which is on Croatian territory. They crossed over and

5 helped the Serbs to expel the people and all the agricultural machinery,

6 tractors and everything were taken away and property taken, seized. Now,

7 before that tomorrow people crossed over in uniforms they kidnapped people

8 in Bosanski Novi, the Bosniaks. They would take them away. Some people

9 went missing without a trace. Some were returned but interrogated and so

10 on.

11 Q. We have to take this little bit step-by-step. You said that

12 someone cross the bridge. People were kidnap. Who -- who are you talking

13 about? Who were these people who crossed the bridge and did call kind of

14 things?

15 A. From Bosanski Novi in those elite units of theirs they were called

16 Specials, but I think these were in their militia, the police of Krajina.

17 Some well-known criminals went there; they were given weapons quite

18 simply. They were recruited over there. And in Bosanski Novi they caused

19 a great deal of problems with their weapons. They threw hand grenades of

20 cafes owned by Albanians and Muslims. For example, Hodzic, I don't know

21 his first name, but he worked in the legal department of Bosanski Novi.

22 He was a lawyer, and he put a pistol to their -- to his back. He was

23 taken across the bridge. He was interrogated, beaten up, subjected to

24 torture by electrical shock. And another man, Dedic, was also taken away.

25 He was fishing in the river, but he was taken across the river and

Page 3711

1 nothing is none of him to the present day. Mehmed Hamzagic was another

2 example. For a time he was beaten up and subjected to electrical shock

3 torture and interrogated. He didn't know anything. For a time he was

4 released, but several days later he also disappeared without a trace.

5 So that was still when there was peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina, all

6 these things going on.

7 Q. Witness, at the beginning you mentioned that this -- there was an

8 elite unit called Specials. Where did they come from?

9 A. Well, they came from Dvor. They were accommodated there, which is

10 in Krajina, in Croatia, and the place is called Dvor. And when they had

11 accomplished their assignments, they would go back there.

12 Q. You said they were called Specialists. Do you know who did they

13 belong to, under which unit they belonged to?

14 A. Specifically, I don't know the name of the unit because the

15 insignia were changed. Instead of the five-pointed star there was the

16 two-headed eagle, and I think on some of their patches it said,

17 "Militia," "Milicija," or, "Police of Krajina."

18 Q. Do you know whom they were subordinated to?

19 A. Well, I think that at the time the policing Krajina was controlled

20 by Milan Martic. He was the minister of the police, and I think that he

21 was in charge of that overall part of the army and some officers who came

22 from Belgrade but had different names to cover up. So it didn't appear to

23 be an aggression.

24 Q. You also said that from the territory of Bosanski Novi there were

25 people who joined this -- this unit of Specialist. How did you know this?

Page 3712

1 A. Well, they would go back with those uniforms, and they said that

2 they had -- the power was in their hands. They would brag about it. Some

3 people were patriots, patriot Serbs that it did it because of that, but

4 others were criminals and they engaged in petty theft, violence, and so

5 on. I know those people generally by their nicknames. I think that there

6 was a man who was in prison.

7 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't catch the nickname.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then he appeared one day wearing

9 a uniform. There was Grga, there was Brk, names like that. They were all

10 people who otherwise were criminals and where legal proceedings had been

11 taken against them and they were in prison. So Grk, Titin those were some

12 of the nicknames, and Grga.


14 Q. Do you mean before they joined this unit they were in prison?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And did they work together with these units coming from -- from

17 Dvor Na Uni or from Croatia?

18 A. Yes. And nobody prevented them from crossing the bridge in their

19 spare time with their weapons. And then they would just instil a reign of

20 terror and destroy cafes and things like that.

21 Q. Can you tell us these units coming -- which were coming from

22 Croatian side, what kinds of uniforms did they wear?

23 A. All of them wore the olive-grey uniforms of the former JNA and new

24 camouflage uniforms as well, camouflage military uniforms.

25 Q. What kind of weapons did they had in possession?

Page 3713

1 A. Automatic rifles mostly, automatic weapons. Rifles manufactured

2 in Kragujevac of the type that the former JNA had.

3 Q. Talking about their behaviour, you already stated that they

4 arrested few people, and you explained that they were beaten, tortured.

5 Where did they take them?

6 A. To Dvor.

7 Q. Do you know approximately for how long they kept them there?

8 A. Up to seven days. Five, six days, seven days, depending.

9 Q. You also mention that they destroyed cafes. Apart from cafes --

10 first, in which way they destroyed these cafes?

11 A. They would throw hand grenades most often.

12 Q. Did they target just the cafes or some other properties?

13 A. Well, usually they would pick cafes or small restaurants. I was

14 an eyewitness in the case of a cafe called Maksuti owned by an Albanian.

15 Q. Did local police take any actions, prevent crimes committed by

16 these formations?

17 A. At the beginning while late Djuro Umicevic, chief of police, was

18 still alive they did what they could, however, the powers of the police

19 were very limited. All of the villages had been armed for a while. The

20 Serb villages had organised themselves, and the police had no power to do

21 much.

22 Q. You mention that Milan Martic, at least what you knew, was

23 minister of police. Do you know whether or not Milan Martic ever come to

24 Bosanski Novi?

25 A. Yes. I personally saw him on two or thorough cases in Bosanski

Page 3714

1 Novi.

2 Q. What were these locations? What were the circumstances you saw

3 him in Bosanski Novi?

4 A. Once there were rallies being held when he came, and once I saw

5 him with the top leadership of the SDS on a visit, and I saw him once with

6 a man who was a butcher. I don't know him. But I know him only as the

7 man who rented his cafe to a football club. He later proclaimed himself

8 to be a Chetnik leader, vojvoda.

9 Q. And these were the occasions you saw Milan Martic in Bosanski

10 Novi. Did you -- did you see some other politician -- politicians from

11 other parts of former Yugoslavia coming to Bosanski Novi?

12 A. Well, some lower-ranking politicians came from Serbia. Brdjanin

13 from Banja Luka and others from the Regional Board of the SDS. Karadzic

14 came once, Krajisnik, and from the top leadership of the SDS in

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and some from the SDS leaders of the Serbian Krajina,

16 including the late Raskovic who established the SDS in Croatia. He

17 visited Bosanski Novi once.

18 Q. Do you know whether Vojislav Seselj ever visited Bosanski Novi?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was the occasion he visited it?

21 A. I think on the occasion of the big rally that was held in the

22 park, the city park in Bosanski Novi. That rally was in support of the

23 Serbs in Krajina, because war was by that time raging in Croatia.

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we go previously into private session?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

Page 3715

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

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14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

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Page 3716











11 Page 3716 redacted. Private session.















Page 3717

1 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


13 Q. Did there come a time when you return to the municipality? You

14 don't need to be specific about the places which you visited. I just want

15 to know whether you return.

16 A. When I was in Bosanska Krupa, after that I returned, I stayed

17 until the 24th of February and went to Zagreb. And after the war, I came

18 back again in 1998, because that was a time when it was possible to come

19 on a visit.

20 Q. When -- when you return, how did you find the Bosnian places, the

21 places occupied before by Bosniaks?

22 A. It was a catastrophe. Everything was grown over. Everything was

23 like a desert. Maybe in Blagaj there were four or five houses left

24 standing. Everything else was destroyed, roofs torn off, overgrown by

25 weed, woods, brush. You couldn't recognise the places even if you were

Page 3718

1 born around there.

2 Q. My last question: Do you know anything about the fate of SDA

3 activists from 1991, 1992, for example Dzafer Kapetanovic or Resad

4 Berberovic? What happened to these major SDA players in Bosanski Novi?

5 A. All of them were arrested and detained, people from the Main

6 Board, many activists including those you enumerated. All of them were

7 locked up at the camp, at the stadium, and they never got out. They were

8 seen to be beaten and interrogated about things they couldn't have any

9 clue about. They asked them about rockets and such things that we had

10 never seen or even heard about their existence.

11 Many of them were taken by truck one day to Radusica Potok, as

12 some say, and nobody ever heard of them again. Some were found later in

13 mass graves.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness?

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: I concluded my examination-in-chief.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Richterova.

17 Mr. Milovancevic.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the

19 cross-examination will be led by my co-counsel, Mr. Nikola Petrovic.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Petrovic.

21 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Perovic. Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Before I begin the cross-examination, may I suggest that the usher

23 distribute what I have in my hands. I have sufficient copies of the

24 witness's statement in the English language, the interview he gave to OTP

25 investigators, because practically all my questions will relate to that

Page 3719

1 statement.

2 And I have another suggestion, that we continue to work in private

3 session out of an abundance of caution in view of the protective measures

4 enjoyed by this witness.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

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Page 3720











11 Pages 3720-3728 redacted. Private session.















Page 3729

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

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4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

11 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I completely understand Defence

12 counsel's difficulty. However, I do notice that on the 24th of April it

13 does not appear that there are any trials that are sitting in the

14 afternoon. So perhaps we could accommodate the Defence counsel if we

15 simply moved into the afternoon session on Monday, the 24th, and that

16 would give Defence counsel time to get back on Monday morning, which is

17 apparently what he thought was going to happen. If that presents a

18 difficulty, I'm not -- I'm willing to go along with any other arrangements

19 that are suitable.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, what I don't understand is that

21 when we talked about this break, and we thought we would come back to work

22 on the 20th -- I beg your pardon, on the 18th, you stood up to say, no,

23 no, no, but this is Orthodox Easter so we need the rest of the week, and

24 we gave away the four days of the rest of the week because we were trying

25 to accommodate the Orthodox Easter. Now the Orthodox Easter moves further

Page 3730

1 on beyond the 18th to the 21st. It moves into now the 23rd. How does

2 this come about?

3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise.

4 It was my mistake. Good Friday is on the 18th. Sunday is on the --

5 Easter is on Sunday. And that is why I thought you said, as you did

6 indeed, that we would reconvene on Monday, but I forgot that this meant

7 that we should leave on Sunday morning to be here on Monday. So I omitted

8 to say that.

9 It was my mistake. I will -- I won't insist, but it would be

10 important because it's an important holiday.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would it be okay if we sat in the afternoon on the

12 24th?

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't say

14 exactly now because I don't know the transportation problems. Well, I'd

15 rather have the schedule as it stands rather than being bound to come here

16 on Monday afternoon. I can't take that risk, say that I will appear on

17 Monday afternoon and then not appear. That would be quite improper. But

18 it's something out of my control depending on transport facilities, and so

19 on and so forth, traffic and so on.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, Mr. Milovancevic, you have booked your ticket.

21 You now know which flight you are flying on back from the region.

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. We have

23 reserved our departure flights. We still have to reserve our return

24 flights via the Registry.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you -- how does this affect your scheduling of

Page 3731

1 witnesses? Are you able to accommodate Mr. Milovancevic if we don't sit

2 at all on the 24th?

3 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour, we are. We will just move the

4 witness who was going to be on the 24th a little bit later in the week.

5 So we can certainly accommodate that.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: All right. Thank you very much.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will then not sit at all on Monday, the 24th.

9 We will start on the 25th. Having said that, I must say I give this day

10 very grudgingly. This is now the fifth day, if you add it to the four

11 days of the previous week. Somehow we must try and make means to cover

12 these days. I don't know how, but I think we must try and do that when we

13 come back. Okay?

14 There is an issue. If that is all that was going to be raised by

15 the parties, the Chamber has something to raise, and seeing that we will

16 not come back for the afternoon session, maybe we might as well deal with

17 this.

18 There are a number of documents which have been marked for

19 identification, and they are getting quite a many. Let me just sort of go

20 through them.

21 There were two documents introduced during Mr. Theunens which were

22 MFIs 112 and 113. Then there was a document introduced during the

23 testimony of Maksic, which is MFI 131. And there were 11 documents

24 introduced during the testimony of Mr. Babic, MFIs 200, 201, 202, 223,

25 225, 226, 227, 228, 2231 -- I beg your pardon, 231, 233, and 241.

Page 3732

1 Now, as regards the MFI 112 and 113 -- well, 113, if I don't -- if

2 I'm not mistaken, there was no request that it be tendered into evidence,

3 and I think whoever was responsible should decide whether it will be

4 tendered or not. But let me talk about MFI 112 and 131. They were

5 tendered for admission by the Defence and the Prosecution respectively and

6 they were marked for identification as a result of the opposing party's

7 objection to the admissibility. MFI 112 is an UNPROFOR document object

8 contained in the book entitled western Slavonia May 1995 exodus, and this

9 document was tendered by the Defence during cross-examination. The

10 Prosecution did not object to admission of the document itself on the

11 condition that the title of the document, which was seemingly added by the

12 author of the book, is not regarded as part of the evidence.

13 The parties have agreed that the title is not part of the

14 document. But it should also be noted that the same type of document was,

15 except for its title, admitted into evidence as Exhibit 111. And Exhibit

16 111 appears to be another excerpt from the same book also. I'm just

17 telling you so that I orient you on these MFI documents.

18 131, this is an order issued by -- I don't know if I'm going to

19 pronounce it correctly, Cedomir Bulat, which was tendered by the

20 Prosecution. Now, Witness Maksic stated that this document was not

21 familiar to him and pointed out that the document does not indicate to

22 whom it is addressed, and based on those comments the Defence objected to

23 its admission.

24 Now, another order by Kemal Bulat was admitted into evidence

25 through expert witness Theunens on the 26th of January, and this is

Page 3733

1 Exhibit 51. And it is just noteworthy that MFI 131 carries the same

2 signature which is similar to the signature on Exhibit 51. Okay? And I

3 don't know whether the parties would like to have these two documents

4 admitted into evidence at this stage.

5 Let's start with you, Mr. Whiting.

6 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I have no problem with that. I think

7 that -- I think that's fine to have both of them admitted.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?

9 In that event, may Exhibit 112, which was an MFI, please be

10 admitted into evidence and be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 112, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May we do the same with

13 Exhibit MFI 131?

14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 131, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, as relates Exhibit MFI 241, this was a

16 bulletin issued by the Federal Secretariat of National Defence on 3rd of

17 December 1991, and introduced by the Defence during the hearing of Milan

18 Babic's evidence. The Chamber marked this for identification because it

19 lacked an English translation. It is unclear the Defence actually

20 intended to tender the document into evidence as it only asked for -- to

21 have it displayed, and the lack of translation was pointed out by the

22 Prosecution before the Defence took any action to tender it into evidence.

23 I think that the Prosecution had undertaken to find a translation.

24 I don't know how far you've gone on that one.

25 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, we looked and this document has not

Page 3734

1 been translated by the Prosecution. There is no -- we're not aware of a

2 translation of this document.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: So does this therefore mean that it cannot be

4 admitted into evidence, because the Chamber will be at sea about it?

5 MR. WHITING: I think with respect to this document what I would

6 suggest is that we -- we endeavour to get a translation of the document.

7 We can -- we can request one. I'll take that on. And then maybe we could

8 defer this discussion until we have a translation and have an opportunity

9 to look at it.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Prosecution is reminded the whole fact was

11 defer the last time because the Prosecution was going to try and get it

12 translated. If you could do that as soon as you possibly can Mr. Whiting.

13 MR. WHITING: Yes, we will, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The other MFIs that remain

15 relate to Mr. Ban's testimony. Now -- I see you want to stand up,

16 Mr. Milovancevic. Let me see if I can preempt you from standing.

17 We are not talking here about whether to admit Mr. Babic's

18 evidence in its entirety or not. That is still a different topic which we

19 will talk about later. There are motions that are being prepared by the

20 parties. We're talking here about just these exhibits. And if we say now

21 that we admit these exhibits, obviously they will suffer the same fate as

22 the fate that will be suffered by the entire evidence of Mr. Babic when

23 that point is decided at that time. So we are not talking about

24 Mr. Babic's entire evidence.

25 What shall we do with these documents?

Page 3735

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] It's all right, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: In that event, then, I guess you also have no

3 objection, Mr. Whiting?

4 MR. WHITING: No, I don't.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Then MFI Exhibits 200, 201, 202, 223, 225,

6 226, 227, 228, 231, and 233 are admitted into evidence, and may they be

7 given, I believe, corresponding exhibits numbers, Mr. Court Officer.

8 THE REGISTRAR: They shall, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Judge Nosworthy was

10 attracting myself to Exhibit 241, but I think we have dealt with that

11 already.

12 Okay. That brings us to the end of today's session. I'm sorry we

13 took an extra 20 minutes, but at least this avoids us coming back in the

14 afternoon. I hope everybody appreciates that.

15 Thank you very much. Happy Easter weekend everybody. Let's come

16 back fresh and ready to work on Tuesday. Bye now.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.22 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 25th day

19 of April, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.