Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4989

1 Friday, 2 June 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.

6 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution calls its

7 next witness, Mr. Van Lynden.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

9 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, might I be allowed

11 to do something that I omitted to do yesterday at the end of our working

12 session, at the end of the examination of the witness? I omitted to

13 tender the exhibits from the 65 ter list -- actually, one document in

14 actual fact. The number of it is 1829, and we used that document

15 yesterday towards the end of the day. So I'd like to tender that into

16 evidence, with your permission. Thank you.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was that 1829 or 829?


19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The document is admitted into evidence. May

20 it please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit number 770, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.

25 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

Page 4990

1 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, sir.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could Defence counsel's microphone please be

4 switched off. Thank you.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, may you switch off your mike,

6 please.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

9 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.


11 Examination by Mr. Whiting:

12 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Could you please state your name for the

13 record.

14 A. Aernout van Lynden.

15 Q. Could you spell your first name, please.

16 A. A-e-r-n-o-u-t.

17 Q. Mr. Van Lynden, obviously you and I both speak English. What this

18 means for the interpreters is that, number one, we have to take our time

19 when we speak so they can interpret what we say, and maybe even more

20 importantly, we need to pause after question and after answer to give them

21 time to catch up. So we both have to try to remember that.

22 Sir, I -- I'm going to go through your background. I'm just going

23 to read it out, unless there's an objection, and if you could confirm it.

24 You were born on the 31st of December, 1954?

25 A. Correct.

Page 4991

1 Q. You are of Dutch and British nationality?

2 A. No, I'm only of Dutch nationality, but I have an English mother.

3 Q. And you were educated in England?

4 A. Largely educated in England, yes; secondary school and university.

5 Q. You served in the Dutch Marine Corps, however, for two and a half

6 years as a reserve officer?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. You have the title of baron but you've told me that you would

9 prefer to be called "Mr. Van Lynden."

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Okay. After your education and your military service, you worked

12 as a war correspondent for some 23 years?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And some of the places you worked during -- as a correspondent

15 were in Iran, Iraq, Beirut, Afghanistan, Eastern Europe, you covered the

16 Gulf War in 1991, you covered the conflict in the former Yugoslavia after

17 that.

18 A. I covered those various conflicts that you mentioned. I first

19 went to the former Yugoslavia in June, 1991, to Slovenia, and then covered

20 most of the conflict after that until 1999.

21 Q. You worked as a war correspondent first -- you first started

22 working for a Dutch newspaper and then you freelanced for a period of time

23 for the Washington Post, the Observer, and BBC radio. Is that correct?

24 A. That's correct, yes. That was during the late 1970s and during

25 the 1980s.

Page 4992

1 Q. And in 1988, I believe it was, you joined the staff of Sky News,

2 which is a news service that is run out of London, I take it?

3 A. In 1988 I joined Sky News, which was a new 24-hour news channel

4 with its headquarters in London.

5 Q. And you worked there until 2001. And after that, you stopped

6 being a war correspondent, having put in 23 years, and you began teaching,

7 and you are now the chair of the department of journalism and mass

8 communication at American University in Bulgaria?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Now. Let's turn to the year 1991. You've already indicated that

11 in June of 1991 you started covering the conflict in the former Yugoslavia

12 and that you went to Slovenia and that you were then working for Sky News.

13 Could you tell us what your assignment was when you -- when you went to

14 Slovenia in June of 1991, what was your assignment?

15 A. My assignment was simply to cover the events that were taking

16 place there. On the day we arrived in Slovenia, in the evening we

17 arrived, the Slovenes had declared independence from Yugoslavia, and a

18 conflict then erupted between the Slovene forces, largely Territorial

19 Defence and police, and the Army of Yugoslavia.

20 Q. How long were you in Slovenia?

21 A. For about two and a half weeks, maybe three weeks in total.

22 Q. Where did you go after that?

23 A. I was first sent home, which at that time was in Brussels. That's

24 where my wife was based, who is a diplomat. And after one or two days I

25 was called by my foreign editor in London and told that they wanted me to

Page 4993

1 go to Belgrade and to cover the worsening situation between Serbia and

2 Croatia. And so I flew to Belgrade. This would have been the second half

3 of July, 1991.

4 Q. At that time did Sky News have any relationship, if you know, with

5 Yugoslav television?

6 A. Yes, we did. Right after Sky News went on-air at the beginning of

7 1989, the head of the international department of Yugoslav television, a

8 man called Jaksa Scekic came to London and negotiated an agreement with

9 the head of Sky News, whereby Yugoslav television had the rights to

10 re-broadcast Sky News 12 hours a day, and in exchange, if Sky News came to

11 the territory of Yugoslavia, we would be given access to pictures that had

12 been shot by Yugoslav TV cameramen, we would be given editing facilities

13 and other help. Originally when I arrived in Belgrade in July 1991, Jaksa

14 Scekic came to collect me at the airport and he had organised for a local

15 producer, who would also interpret for me as I do not speak Serbo-Croat,

16 to go with me into the field, and the idea was that we would work with

17 crews of Yugoslav television, Belgrade television, who were out in the

18 field and that we could have access to those pictures but also have access

19 to the cameramen, for instance, to shoot pieces to camera, correspondent

20 talking directly to the camera.

21 Q. How long were you in Belgrade?

22 A. Only for one day, that first day and night. And then the next

23 day, together with the field producer, Zoran Kusovac, we drove in a hired

24 car to Bihac, which is in north-western Bosnia. We stayed there

25 overnight, and then the next day linked up with a cameraman and a reporter

Page 4994

1 of Belgrade television, in a town called Dvor Na Uni, which is just across

2 the border from Bosnia in Croatia.

3 MR. WHITING: Your Honours, I would refer the Trial Chamber to

4 page 21 of Exhibit 23, the atlas, specifically grid C3, and I think you'll

5 find Dvor is just next to Bosanski Novi.

6 Q. When you went to Dvor, was it controlled by Serbs or Croats, if

7 you could tell?

8 A. It was controlled by Serbs.

9 Q. When you arrived there, did you encounter any soldiers or fighters

10 at the entrance of Dvor?

11 A. One has to cross the River Una, so that's a bridge, and on the

12 bridge or the side of the bridge there were armed Serbs who controlled us.

13 We went with the cameraman and reporter of Belgrade television, who we had

14 met up with in Bosanski Novi, and crossed with them. They had done this

15 before, they were known, and therefore it was explained to the guards that

16 we were with them, and therefore we were allowed to enter. Officially one

17 had to have a document that one could only get in the centre of Dvor

18 saying that one was allowed to cross the bridge. But on that occasion

19 that was not a problem. This turned out into a Catch 22 at a later date.

20 Q. We'll get to that. On that occasion, did you -- after you crossed

21 the bridge there and passed through the guards, did you proceed to the

22 headquarters in Dvor or did you go somewhere else?

23 A. No. We were told that there had been a shooting incident

24 overnight in a nearby village called Struga. And as I recall, we were

25 taken or drove directly there. We drove in our own cars. On arrival

Page 4995

1 there, there were -- there was a unit of the Yugoslav army that had

2 deployed there. The man in command, as I recall, was a lieutenant-colonel

3 in the JNA, he was a Bosnian Serb, and I met him again later on in 1992 in

4 Brcko, in northern Bosnia. And he explained to us that his unit had been

5 ordered into Struga really as a buffer force. Struga was a village of

6 Croats, populated by Croats, and they had been attacked the previous

7 evening by Serbs from Dvor. There had been shooting. We saw signs of

8 that, bullet-holes, and what have you. No heavy use of weaponry, as far

9 as I could see, machine-guns and other rifles.

10 We were told a number of people had died and saw a number of

11 people who had been killed. By the time we left, coffins were being

12 constructed, and the population -- most of the population, had fled into

13 the woods, and by that stage most of the population was returning to their

14 homes after the deployment of the JNA.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you remember the name of the

16 lieutenant-colonel?

17 THE WITNESS: I don't remember his name, sir.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

19 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, again referring to the atlas, Struga

20 can be found just to the north of Dvor in the atlas on page 21, in

21 grid C3.

22 Q. You said that -- you said that some people had been killed. Do

23 you know how many people had been killed?

24 A. As I recall, about four.

25 Q. And were these Croats or Serbs, if you know?

Page 4996

1 A. There are -- four Croats had been killed -- I'm sorry, let me

2 rephrase that. I'm aware of at least four Croats having been killed. And

3 we were told, although we did not see them at that stage, that two Serbs

4 had also been killed. And the following day we attended the funeral of

5 those two Serbs, and it was confirmed to us that two of the Serbs who had

6 entered Struga, armed men had been killed in the shooting.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just get it clear: The two Serbs who were

8 shot in Struga had been armed?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, they were part of the force, the armed force

10 that had entered Struga on the evening before we went there.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

12 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Van Lynden, the -- the four Croats, did you see -- actually

14 see their bodies?

15 A. I recall -- I'm not sure that I saw all four, but I certainly saw

16 a couple of them, yes, and we filmed them as well. Their bodies were

17 being cleaned prior to burial.

18 Q. Were you able to see how they were dressed?

19 A. As I recall, one of them was already partially undressed, as they

20 were cleaning the body, as I said, prior to -- the other was not and they

21 were dressed, as far as I could see, in civilian clothes.

22 Q. Were you able to tell if the -- when you saw them they were

23 wearing the clothes that they had been wearing when they were killed?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Any blood, for example, or bullet-holes or any other indication

Page 4997

1 that would have suggested that?

2 A. Blood, yes.

3 Q. Did you see any weapons in connection with these bodies, that is

4 were they holding any weapons or have any weapons on their bodies or any

5 indication of weapons?

6 A. No. There must have been some weapons amongst the villagers in

7 Struga because at least some people fired back at the Serbs when they

8 entered the town, killing two Serbs, but I did not personally see any

9 weapons apart from those -- when I was in Struga apart from those of the

10 JNA soldiers that had deployed there.

11 Q. Now, did you learn that -- you said that Serb forces had attacked

12 this village. Did you learn what kind of Serb forces?

13 A. This was the Territorial Defence force in Dvor, and it was

14 confirmed to us. After a few hours in Struga, we went back to Dvor and

15 then were taken to the headquarters of the Territorial Defence forces in

16 Dvor, and it was confirmed to us there that they had launched this attack,

17 yes.

18 Q. Were you able to observe members of this Territorial Defence

19 force, either in Dvor or in Struga?

20 A. They were no longer in Struga when we entered Struga. They were

21 deployed on the outskirts of Dvor, in make-shift positions, barricades.

22 Some had dug in to a degree, but these are not proper trenches, but they

23 had taken up some defensive positions around Dvor, and we met a number of

24 them at the headquarters.

25 They were often only partially uniformed, so a bit of combat

Page 4998

1 clothing, but not fully. And a variety of combat clothing. Some were

2 wearing Yugoslav army clothes that they must have had from their own time,

3 because the Yugoslav is a conscript army, they would have done military

4 service, and the weaponry was also a mishmash of professional arms,

5 Kalashnikovs, heavier machine-guns, but also some hunting rifles.

6 Q. Were you ever able to determine where the weapons that you've

7 described they had came from? Aside from, of course, the hunting rifles.

8 The professional arms, Kalashnikovs, and heavier machine-guns.

9 A. We asked where their armaments had been -- had come from, and we

10 were given different answers. We were told that it was part of the normal

11 defence for the Territorial Defence forces to have arms of this nature;

12 others said that they had received further arms from Belgrade.

13 Q. Now, you described for us what you learned about what had

14 happened, that is that these Serb forces - and you've described them as TO

15 forces - attacked the village of Struga. Were you able to learn what the

16 aim of the attack was?

17 A. Again, we actually got different explanations from different

18 people we spoke to. One of the explanations, maybe this would be called

19 the official explanation that we were given at the headquarters in Dvor,

20 was that the aim of this operation was to rid Struga of Croatian police

21 and -- that was the aim. Others were clearer that their aim was to rid

22 the region of the Croats and that the aim of the operation had actually

23 been to see to it that the population of Struga left.

24 Q. And who, if you recall, told you that or -- I'll -- yeah. Who

25 told you that?

Page 4999

1 A. Not one of the commanders, but some of the men that we spoke to on

2 that first day in Dvor were telling us that. For the safety of the Serbs

3 in Dvor, it was necessary for the Croat population of Struga to leave.

4 Q. The men that you're talking about, were these -- were these Serbs,

5 Croats?

6 A. These were -- these were Serb members of the Territorial Defence

7 forces.

8 Q. Okay. And was -- was what they told you, that the aim of the

9 operation was to see to it that the population of Struga left, was that

10 consistent with what you observed when you were actually in Struga?

11 A. The population of Struga, or at least most of the population of

12 Struga, we were told, had fled the village and gone into the hills, into

13 the forests, when the attack took place. And while we were there, we did

14 see people coming down from the forests, back into the village, so that

15 seemed to confirm it. And this is also what we were told by the battalion

16 commander of the JNA, that most of the population had fled into the

17 forest, but they were coming back to the village. So in that sense, the

18 operation had not succeeded because it didn't drive the people out.

19 The people -- some of the people that we did speak to were, of

20 course, very frightened. An attack had taken place, there had been

21 shooting, and some of the villagers had died. And there was a clear sense

22 of fear amongst the villagers that we spoke to.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, when you say "some of the villagers had

24 died," are you talking now in addition to the four?

25 THE WITNESS: No, this is a reference to the four.

Page 5000

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


3 Q. Mr. Van Lynden, how long did you -- just kind of jumping ahead a

4 little bit. How long did you cover the conflict in the former Yugoslavia?

5 A. From 1991 until 1999. I entered Kosovo with the German forces and

6 went into Prizren in 1999.

7 Q. And so did you cover the -- all three wars; that is in Croatia,

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and also in Kosovo?

9 A. I covered the entire conflict in 1991, the conflict in Croatia,

10 from the Serb side -- with the Serb forces or with the JNA. I covered the

11 entire conflict in Bosnia, but then operating on all sides until 1994 when

12 it no longer became possible for me to operate on the Serb side. And I --

13 until 1994 I was in Serbia or had access to Serbia, had a visa to Serbia,

14 and also went down to Kosovo. But in April 1994 the visa was revoked and

15 I was called persona non grata and no longer allowed to enter Serbia.

16 Q. And is what you observed in Struga at the beginning of your

17 coverage of the -- of the conflict in the former Yugoslavia, is it

18 consistent with other things that you observed during your time as a war

19 correspondent?

20 A. Well, it's not consistent with what I always experienced in other

21 parts of the world, but what -- it certainly became clear to us later in

22 -- for instance, in 1992, in covering the conflict in Bosnia, that what we

23 had seen there was maybe what we could call an early attempt at what the

24 world has come to call ethnic cleansing, which happened on a large,

25 organised scale in Eastern Bosnia during the spring and early summer of

Page 5001

1 1992. And this one incident, which was a relatively small incident in

2 comparison to others that would follow, that we witnessed on that, I think

3 on a Saturday morning in Struga, that this was an indication. But we

4 didn't, of course, at that time realise that yet and I certainly would not

5 have called it that in my report. This was an incident of fighting

6 between Serbs and Croats. One side had attacked, both sides had suffered

7 casualties, but I did not describe it as ethnic cleansing at the time.

8 Q. I understand. Now, after you left Struga, I think you already

9 said you went back to Dvor. And what happened when you went back to Dvor?

10 A. We did indeed go back to Dvor. We were -- first had to go back to

11 the headquarters --

12 Q. For what reason?

13 A. We had to announce who we were and we had to be written down and

14 get these passes.

15 Q. Who told you to do that?

16 A. This was the Belgrade journalist said that this was a necessary

17 thing to do, that we were -- let's say, get local accreditation as a

18 journalist. We were the first international journalists to be there. The

19 only other journalists there was Serb journalists, so we were a novelty in

20 that sense.

21 Q. The headquarters -- can you describe what that was and who was

22 running the headquarters, if you know.

23 A. Well, as I recall, there were two different buildings. There was

24 the municipality and there was another building which was -- as I remember

25 -- it's a while ago. It is 15 years ago that this occurred, but it was

Page 5002

1 just a normal building in town.

2 Q. And who was in control -- control of this headquarters?

3 A. The Territorial Defence forces. I believe the man who was the

4 commander there, it was a man called Vajagic.

5 Q. So after you went to the headquarters and got the paper, what

6 happened?

7 A. Well, they wanted to talk to us and asked us questions about what

8 we wanted to do. We explained that we simply wanted to cover the events

9 there and see as much as possible what was happening and get an

10 explanation as to why it was happening. These were people, you have to

11 understand, who were not used to dealing with the international media.

12 This was a new experience for them. So the questions were -- seemed

13 perfectly reasonable, and we answered them. While we were there, at a

14 certain moment, but still in the morning -- we'd begun very early in the

15 morning, so somewhere towards the end of the morning I suppose, a -- and

16 we were outside at the time, a black Mercedes turned up, a dusty black

17 Mercedes, and out of this jumped a diminutive gentleman, thin, wearing a

18 black overall, whom I recognised because I'd seen photographs of him in

19 the international press. This is a man who became known as Captain

20 Dragan. And he was in a state of some excitement, to say the least. Was

21 surprised but pleased to find us there, and announced to us that he had

22 taken -- just taken -- his forces had just taken the town of Glina and

23 that we should accompany him there and he would show us the town that he

24 had captured. And relatively quickly we all got into our cars -- when I

25 say "we all," that meant also the journalist from Belgrade television, his

Page 5003

1 cameraman, and three or four other local journalists. And we followed

2 Captain Dragan in his Mercedes to the town of Glina.

3 MR. WHITING: Your Honours, just for your assistance, Glina can be

4 found on page 20 of the atlas, still in grid C3. It's just north-west of

5 Dvor.

6 Q. Now, Mr. Van Lynden, you said that he was pleased to find you

7 there. Can you explain that; and if you know why he was pleased, tell us.

8 A. Captain Dragan had already had some attention from the

9 international media, specifically from the British media, because while he

10 was a Serb, he had grown up -- or at least part of his upbringing had been

11 in Australia. He spoke good English, albeit still with an accent. And I

12 think he felt that this was good for him to get more international

13 attention and recognition. And I think he also felt that through people

14 like myself his cause, as he saw it, would be given more media attention.

15 And so he was pleased that we were there, and he was on that day very,

16 very excited. It seemed to us that he'd had either an overdose of

17 adrenaline or had been taking something else. I've been in war zones a

18 long time and warfare can cause that kind of overexcitement in soldiers,

19 but he was very hyper, indeed, on that day and he wasn't like that on

20 other days that I met him after that. But he was clearly pleased simply

21 for the attention that we would get him on international television.

22 Q. What happened when you got to Glina?

23 A. We were taken straight to the police headquarters in Glina and

24 taken into the police headquarters. There were no policemen there

25 anymore; there were only members of Captain Dragan's militia who were all

Page 5004

1 uniformed and who were clearly under his command.

2 Q. Can I just pause there for a moment. Were you able to observe --

3 you've described his militia as being uniformed and being under his

4 command. Can you compare Captain Dragan's militia with what you observed

5 of the Serb TO that you described to us.

6 A. The Territorial Defence forces were not all uniformed in the same

7 manner, as I've already described. Some were only partially uniformed,

8 some were in civilian clothes, some were in different sorts of combat

9 clothes. The militia that we encountered in Glina were all uniformed in

10 the same manner. This was a uniformed, organised militia. We later

11 learned that Captain Dragan had been there for some time, training them in

12 the town of Knin - that's where his headquarters were - and he showed us

13 where he had trained his men and talked to us about training this militia.

14 As I said, they were all uniformed in the same manner.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: These militia's uniforms, was it any similar to the

16 uniforms of the TO, even though the TO's uniform was not complete?

17 THE WITNESS: No, it was different, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you remember the different colours of the

19 different uniforms?

20 THE WITNESS: Well, as I recall, the Territorial Defence forces

21 were partially -- if they had camouflage clothes on, they had partial --

22 maybe the trousers or the jacket and the shirt, or the other way around,

23 and a variety of combat. Some were in the basic green of the JNA, some

24 with that sort of mixture of camouflage, while the forces of Captain

25 Dragan were all wearing the same uniform. But to be able to precisely

Page 5005

1 describe that uniform to you today, I'm afraid that -- I've been in too

2 many situations with too many uniformed men.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any badges?

4 THE WITNESS: I believe there was a badge. The -- it had a sort

5 of a - how would you call it? - they had a bear, which was also -- there

6 was an actual bear, a baby bear, at the fortress in Knin, which was the

7 headquarters of Captain Dragan's militia. I was introduced to the bear.

8 It was still at a baby stage at that stage. And they may have used that

9 as a symbol. And they may also have used --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who used that as a symbol?

11 THE WITNESS: The militia of Captain Dragan. And they may also

12 have used the colours of Serbia, but I'm not entirely certain if that was

13 already the case.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

15 Mr. Whiting.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Now, I interrupted your train of thought because you were telling

18 us about -- when I asked you about more detail about the militia that you

19 went to a police headquarters. Was this a Croatian police headquarters or

20 a Serb police headquarters? Could you tell at that time?

21 A. It was the police headquarters in Glina, we were told. I had not

22 been in Glina before, and it looked like a police office, certainly.

23 There were no policemen left there, nor, as I recall, was any sign of

24 fighting at the headquarters, or if there was it was minimal.

25 Captain Dragan took us into the building, and he showed us what he

Page 5006

1 considered to be evidence of the mentality of the people that had been in

2 the building, the Croatian police.

3 Q. What -- I'm just pausing. What did he show you, specifically?

4 A. Two things. On one wall a large U had been painted in the manner,

5 as I recall, in blue paint, in the manner that U's were used during the

6 Second World War by the Ustasha in Croatia. This is the regime that was

7 linked to the axis during the Second World War. And the second thing that

8 he showed us was a skull that he had found on the desk -- on one of the

9 desks inside the police headquarters. And on this was written his name

10 and, as I recall, a sum basically stating that Captain Dragan was wanted

11 dead or alive for that sum of money, but I can't remember whether it was

12 100.000 dollars or 10.000 or a million. But he showed us -- he was

13 holding the skull and showed it to us.

14 Q. Now, you told us at the beginning of this account about Captain

15 Dragan in Glina that he announced that his militia had taken Glina. Did

16 you learn then or at any time who had held Glina before he had taken it?

17 Who did he take it from?

18 A. He took it from the control of the Croatian government.

19 Q. When you went to Glina and you went to the headquarters, what did

20 you observe in the streets, if anything?

21 A. The streets were deserted. I don't remember seeing local

22 population out and about at all. I didn't see any signs of any major

23 fighting. We were not there a great deal of time. We had to follow him

24 wherever he went, and he went first to police headquarters. And when we

25 came out of police headquarters, another -- a different unit from the JNA

Page 5007

1 than the one we had encountered earlier that day in Struga had also

2 entered town, and an altercation then took place, which we directly

3 witnessed, between Captain Dragan and an officer from the JNA, as I

4 recall, a major, but I could be wrong, he could be a first captain. And

5 with the JNA officer demanding that Captain Dragan withdraw himself and

6 his men from Glina, and Captain Dragan telling the JNA officer that he was

7 not planning on doing so. Having taken the town, it was now under his

8 control and it remained so.

9 The altercation became quite a violent one in a sense that at a

10 certain moment Captain Dragan picked up what is known as a light anti-tank

11 weapon. These are constructed in -- or were constructed within Yugoslavia

12 but are also weapons that we had in NATO forces. So it was a weapon that

13 I knew from my time in the Dutch Marine Corps. It's a weapon that's a

14 relatively small oblong, and you pull it out, and you can fire it once and

15 it's used against armoured vehicles, and Captain Dragan put this on his

16 shoulder and threatened used to fire at one of the JNA tanks if the major

17 and the JNA forces did not back down.

18 Because of time limitations for us, at this stage we had to leave

19 the town because we had to get our pictures and story and report back to

20 London.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you left the protection of -- without the

22 protection of Captain Dragan?

23 THE WITNESS: We left and drove back to Dvor on the same route

24 that we had taken when we were following him there -- to Glina, but

25 without any protection, yes.

Page 5008

1 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Before you left Glina, were you able to determine why the JNA was

3 demanding that Captain Dragan withdraw himself and his men? What were

4 they trying to accomplish? Were you able to learn that?

5 A. We were not in a position to have a conversation with the JNA

6 officer, because he was having a shouting match with Captain Dragan. We

7 imagined that what he was doing was acting, let's say, as a buffer in the

8 same manner that the JNA had done in Struga, but it was noticeable to us

9 that on both occasions the JNA had only deployed after the action had

10 taken place.

11 Q. Now, you said that you had to leave to get your story and pictures

12 back to London. Where did you go to do that? You went to Dvor and where

13 did you go after that?

14 A. We went back to Bihac. In Bihac, they have a television centre

15 there, and we were able to edit the pictures there, and send them from

16 Bihac to Belgrade and from Belgrade on to London.

17 Q. Now, the next day did something happen?

18 A. The next day we went back to Dvor. I think this is the occasion

19 that we ran into the Catch 22 situation that I referred to earlier at the

20 bridge with the militia deployed at the bridge saying that we needed a

21 pass to enter, but we couldn't get the pass unless we got into Dvor first.

22 So we were left without a pass and on the bridge. Initially then we went

23 through a rather bizarre situation of being arrested, put up against the

24 wall, and told that we would actually be shot, that -- in the end that did

25 not occur, obviously as I'm sitting here today. And we were allowed to

Page 5009

1 enter Dvor and get the piece of paper that was required.

2 Q. Just to be clear, and I'm sorry to interrupt, but the militia that

3 you're describing, is this the same Serb TO militia that you talked about

4 having been there the day before?

5 A. Yes, this is the same Territorial Defence militia that I

6 described.

7 Q. And then after that did you go to the headquarters and get the

8 paper?

9 A. We went to -- I think it was in the municipality that we had to

10 get this paper, but I'm not a hundred per cent certain on that, but we did

11 get the piece of paper. We then encountered Captain Dragan again because

12 he was giving a press conference. As I recall, he gave the press

13 conference in -- in Serbo-Croat, but spoke to us separately, on camera, in

14 English afterwards. We then had a conversation with him, and he told us

15 that he was going to Knin and that we should follow him. And --

16 Q. Did he tell you anything about what had happened in Glina?

17 A. He had told us that he had held on to the town, that the JNA had

18 backed off.

19 Q. And did he say anything about Croats?

20 A. He had said the day before in the police station that the U on the

21 wall was an indication as to why he was fighting, because he believed the

22 Serbs population within Croatia to be under threat and because the regime

23 then ruling in Zagreb, led by Franjo Tudjman, was of the same nature as

24 the regime that had controlled Croatia during the Second World War. And

25 he made the statement that what he was doing was simply protecting the

Page 5010

1 Serbs and that he was adamant that the methods that he used and his

2 militia used were those of discipline and in not hurting the civilian

3 Croat population that they encountered.

4 Q. Now, was there -- on that day, was there a funeral either in Dvor

5 or Struga?

6 A. There may also have been funerals in Struga, but I didn't go back

7 there. But we went to the funeral of the two Serbs who had been killed in

8 Struga, as I recall, in pretty dreadful weather. It was raining and --

9 Q. And that funeral --

10 A. Was in Dvor.

11 Q. Was in Dvor.

12 A. Yes, it was in Dvor.

13 Q. Now, did you have occasion to go back to Dvor some several days

14 later?

15 A. Yes, we did.

16 Q. And what happened on that occasion, when you went back to Dvor?

17 A. We drove into Dvor and the situation, it was immediately clear,

18 was very tense. There were a lot of armed people running around. We had

19 driven there. We were going to meet with Captain Dragan, and we did

20 indeed meet up with Captain Dragan. And there we discovered he had

21 deployed members of his militia around a building, and there was a

22 stand-off now between his militia and the local Territorial Defence forces

23 in Dvor that I have described before.

24 Captain Dragan explained to us that there had been an incident in

25 Dvor in which four or five Croat women from the village of Struga who had

Page 5011

1 been getting medical attention at the medical facility or clinic in Dvor

2 had been taken out of there by ten men of the Serb Territorial Defence

3 forces and had been killed, hacked to pieces, according to Captain Dragan,

4 with knives and axes. And that he had arrested these ten men and was

5 holding them in this building which was surrounded by his militia because

6 he felt that these men had committed a crime and should be put on trial.

7 Again, he reiterated that he did not feel that there had to be a

8 difference in the behaviour of the Serbs and that the Serbs should not

9 make the mistakes of their enemies, that their enemies had made during the

10 Second World War, a reference to the behaviour of the Ustasha forces

11 during the Second World War, and that's why he had arrested these ten men.

12 Q. So if you could just kind of describe the scene for us. There is

13 this house. The ten men who have been arrested are inside the house, and

14 it's surrounded by Dragan's men?

15 A. Dragan's men are on the doors and around the house. A bit further

16 away, 50, 80 metres away, there were local population, both civilian and

17 members of the Territorial Defence forces, who wanted to get these men

18 released. There were arguments between the commander of the local

19 Territorial Defence forces and Captain Dragan.

20 Q. This -- is this the commander that you referred to earlier in your

21 testimony that you thought was Vajagic?

22 A. Yes, that's the -- yes, it is. Dragan told a couple of his men to

23 look after us, to keep us safe, to see that we were not attacked. And so

24 we were not always -- I mean, we were not always constantly with Captain

25 Dragan. We were not taken inside the house. We were not shown the ten

Page 5012

1 prisoners. We were also not taken to the clinic, nor did I actually see

2 the evidence of four or five dead Croat women. I only had Captain's --

3 Dragan's word to go on this. The crew and correspondent of Belgrade

4 television were there as well but refused to film this scene of a

5 stand-off between Serb and Serb.

6 Q. Do you know why they refused?

7 A. Well, when we spoke to them and we said that this was actually

8 what Captain Dragan was doing would probably get very good coverage by the

9 international media as a sign that some of the Serb forces were absolutely

10 abiding by the law. Initially the correspondent - who had been a

11 correspondent abroad as well, he'd been in Romania during the revolution

12 as well as I recall - agreed with us, but he said that he'd first have to

13 call his boss. He called Belgrade television, and he told us afterwards

14 that he had been told by his boss not to cover this, not to mention it to

15 anyone, and to immediately leave Dvor. And he and his crew then did so.

16 Zoran Kusovac, my producer, and I stayed behind for a time at

17 least, but we could not film this scene because I didn't have a cameraman.

18 Q. So now you've described the scene for us. The Belgrade television

19 folks have left. Can you -- tell us what happened next.

20 A. At a certain moment - and I cannot give he precise time - a car

21 drew up in front of the building and out came a man, who was I was told by

22 my producer was Milan Martic, and who -- he was described to me as sort of

23 the commander of the Territorial Defence forces in Krajina and Banija in

24 that region of Croatia. And there was then a meeting outside, which we

25 witnessed, between Martic and Captain Dragan, and quite a furious argument

Page 5013

1 between the two, finally ending with -- as it was translated to me by my

2 producer, Mr. Martic ordering Captain Dragan to release the ten men whom

3 he had arrested. And in the end that's what Captain Dragan did, when he

4 was ordered to do so.

5 Q. I want to ask you a couple questions about what you've just told

6 us.

7 First of all, you said you were told that this man who arrived was

8 Milan Martic. Did you have later occasions to see Milan Martic or even

9 meet him?

10 A. Yes, I did. If I recall correctly, at that stage Dragan told us

11 to leave Dvor, told us that he was leaving Dvor and going back to Knin,

12 and that we should follow him there the next day and that we should meet

13 him for a late lunch, as I recall, just outside Knin. I think it's, if I

14 remember correctly, it was The Mill or the Old Mill or something of that

15 sort. It was an outside restaurant where there would be lamb on a --

16 roasted lamb. And when we got there finally, towards the late afternoon,

17 we met up with Captain Dragan and we went there. And Milan Martic then

18 appeared and joined us for that late lunch.

19 Q. And -- I'm just focussing on the identification here. Was it the

20 same man that you saw in Dvor?

21 A. Yes, it was the same man.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are now in Knin?

23 THE WITNESS: I'm now in Knin.


25 Q. And in Knin you had no doubt that this was, in fact, Milan Martic

Page 5014

1 that you were having lunch with?

2 A. That's how I was introduced to him.

3 Q. Let's go back to Dvor. You said in your testimony -- you used the

4 word, and you used it twice, that Mr. Martic ordered Captain Dragan. Did

5 you choose that word with care? Is that what was actually translated,

6 that he was ordering him to release the Serbs?

7 A. That's as I recall it, yes. That seemed to be the relationship or

8 so. When we talked to Captain Dragan later in Knin, he described himself

9 as not being independent but falling under the orders of Mr. Martic.

10 Q. Now, you've described that you left and you went to Knin. And

11 you've already told us that you've had this lunch. Can you tell us what

12 happened at the lunch with Milan Martic and Captain Dragan?

13 A. Well, it was one of those quite difficult lunches in the sense

14 that we were speaking two different languages so there had to be

15 translation. As I recall, Mr. Martic was sitting at the end of the table,

16 and on one side was Captain Dragan, on the other side was myself. And I

17 suppose that Zoran Kusovac was sitting next to me and -- to help with the

18 translation.

19 It was difficult in the sense that while Captain Dragan had

20 already expressed to us in the various meetings that we'd had up to then

21 his pleasure that international journalists were travelling to his

22 areas -- to these areas to explain the conflict and to allow the Serbs to

23 explain why this conflict was occurring, to make their own case, if you

24 like. And so we also asked of course Mr. Martic for his help in doing

25 this.

Page 5015

1 But he was clearly of a different opinion. He did not seem to

2 understand the point in journalists of my nature, international

3 journalists, being in Knin. He didn't -- and I think I remember him

4 actually saying this and Zoran translating that he did not really see the

5 point in talking to someone like me, that we could not be trusted. This

6 of course is part of the mentality that was instilled within the Yugoslav

7 forces, certainly, Yugoslav army prior to the conflict, that nobody from

8 the west could really be trusted that any western journalist was, by

9 definition, a spy. And Mr. Martic's whose experience, as far as I was

10 given to it -- to understand, was very much limited to life in a

11 provincial city of Knin obviously felt that people of myself were either a

12 threat or certainly could not be of any use. And the whole idea of the

13 Serbs making a case to international opinion was a complete novelty to him

14 and not something that he seemed to believe.

15 Q. After you had that lunch with Milan Martic, did you have occasion

16 to see Captain Dragan on further occasions?

17 A. Yes. He took us to the fort overlooking Knin, as I said earlier,

18 introduced us to his bear, with whom one had to have a sort of little

19 struggle to prove one's manliness. And he also took us to the railway

20 siding to show us an armoured train that he had had constructed. This was

21 for the first time in my experience as a war correspondent that I was in a

22 region with an armoured train. It rather reminded me of those films about

23 the Mexican civil war in the late 19th century and early 20th century in

24 which you saw armoured trains. I'm unaware if it was ever used. We only

25 saw it at the railway siding of Knin. And Knin is of course above all

Page 5016

1 known as a railway junction.

2 Q. At the fortress did you observe other members of his militia,

3 Captain Dragan's militia?

4 A. We did meet other members of his militia, including some women.

5 Q. And do you know if the -- his militia was based there at the

6 fortress or had any relationship to the fortress?

7 A. I believe that he called it his headquarters, as I recall.

8 Q. Did you have any conversations with Captain Dragan about Slobodan

9 Milosevic?

10 A. We spoke to him about Mr. Milosevic then, and I recall a separate

11 conversation which was either towards the end of 1991 or at the beginning

12 of 1992, a conversation that took place in Belgrade. He certainly saw

13 Mr. Milosevic as being the leader of the Serbs as a whole and clearly

14 believed that Mr. Milosevic was in charge of the entire operation, was

15 leading the entire operation, of what was happening in Croatia at the

16 time.

17 When we met him in Belgrade, he asked us why it had been

18 impossible for him to have a meeting with Mr. Milosevic. And at the time

19 when we met him there, both Jaksa Scekic, the man I described earlier from

20 Belgrade television, Zoran Kusovac, and myself were present, and all three

21 of us saw this as political naivety on the part of Captain Dragan, that a

22 man like Slobodan Milosevic would ever meet him seemed to us highly

23 unlikely. Mr. Milosevic would keep someone like Captain Dragan at arm's

24 length.

25 Q. Now, going back to Knin during the times that you spent with

Page 5017

1 Captain Dragan, were you able to observe anything about the funding or

2 resources that were available to him?

3 A. There had clearly been quite some funding because all his men were

4 uniformed in the same uniforms, as I've already described. They had

5 modern guns, so there had clearly been funding. Precisely where this

6 funding came from we were not told, but it's unusual for someone to

7 immediately say: Well, we got so much from this person or from a

8 particular government. But it was clear that he had had significant

9 funding from the outside.

10 Q. You've already said that you met with Captain Dragan in Belgrade,

11 either towards the end of 1991 or the beginning of 1992. Do you know why

12 he had left Knin?

13 A. He told us he had left Knin because he had fallen out with Milan

14 Martic.

15 Q. On that occasion, did you have -- did you talk to him about what

16 had happened between Captain Dragan and Milan Martic in Dvor that you've

17 testified about today?

18 A. I cannot recall talking about that in Belgrade. We did talk about

19 it again in Knin.

20 Q. What did he say in Knin about it?

21 A. Well, that he felt that this was a mistake because he felt that

22 the Serbs should, very clearly, behave in a different manner to their

23 opponents; in other words, that he believed that the rule of law should be

24 upheld. And by allowing these ten men to be freed and not put on trial,

25 he felt that Mr. Martic had made a significant mistake.

Page 5018

1 Q. Do you know if after you saw Captain Dragan in Belgrade towards

2 the end of 1991 or the beginning of 1992, do you know if he ever returned

3 to Knin?

4 A. I am told that he did, yes, but I, myself, never returned there so

5 I did not see him myself.

6 MR. WHITING: Your Honours, could we look at Exhibit 588 in

7 evidence, please?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we please see Exhibit 588.

9 MR. WHITING: It takes a moment. I think we need to have the

10 English, though. If we could just hold it there for a moment.

11 Q. Mr. Van Lynden, this is a document which is in evidence in our

12 trial. It's dated the 28th of July, 1991, which -- it's not evident there

13 but it's evident on the bottom of the page --

14 MR. WHITING: If we could just scroll down for a moment so that

15 can be visible.

16 Q. There, it's at the bottom. And it's from the Chief of Staff

17 Nikola Boljanic. I'd just like you to look at point 4, which I'll just

18 read out loud. It's quite short.

19 "During the evening of 28 July 1991, I received information of an

20 uncontrolled and notorious deed by the members of the sabotage platoon,

21 who that day killed patients (women) at the Medical Centre in Dvor."

22 Is that consistent with what you heard had happened when you went

23 to Dvor on that day?

24 A. I was not told that they were members of the sabotage platoon; at

25 least I don't remember being told that. What captain -- what I remember

Page 5019

1 Captain Dragan telling us was that these were members of the Territorial

2 Defence forces, but that's what he said had happened. And he mentioned

3 four or five women. And as I said, as I recall, he said that they were

4 actually from Struga but that they were at the medical centre or clinic in

5 Dvor when they were taken out and killed.

6 Q. When is the first time that you saw this document?

7 A. You showed it to me on Monday.

8 Q. And was this after you had given a -- already given a statement

9 about this event?

10 A. Yes, I gave a statement about this event several years ago.

11 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, it's -- we're just a couple of minutes

12 before the break, but the next topic will take longer. So perhaps if we

13 could just take the break now.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I ask one or two questions now just to take us

15 to the last -- to break time.

16 After the lunch in Knin, did you ever see Mr. Martic thereafter?

17 THE WITNESS: I did, Your Honour. I saw him in what would have

18 been probably late February 1994 when he visited Pale in Bosnia, and he

19 was visiting officially as the president of the Serb republic in Croatia,

20 I don't know the precise name it gave, and he was visiting his

21 counterpart, Dr. Karadzic, who was the president of the Bosnian Serbs, at

22 his headquarters in Pale. This was after the first market explosion in

23 Sarajevo, and I was then based in Pale. It was snowing, as I recall.

24 Mr. Martic reviewed a military guard of honour and then went inside the

25 building known as the Bosnian Serb Presidency for talks with Dr. Karadzic.

Page 5020

1 But I was there and I saw him then.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you came to know him fairly well?

3 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't have -- when I saw him then, I didn't

4 have a conversation with him. So my only face-to-face conversation with

5 him was during that late lunch just outside of Knin in July 1991. That's

6 the only conversation I personally had with him.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you know him facially?


9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can identify him?


11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That's all I ask for now.

12 Court adjourned. We'll come back at 4.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 3.59 p.m.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Van Lynden, I'm going to show you a clip, a video clip, on the

18 monitor that's -- that's in evidence. It's in evidence as Exhibit 479.

19 We don't need to call it up because we can show it from the Sanction here,

20 but I think we have to switch over to the Sanction.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're going to have to tell us how to switch over

22 to the Sanction.

23 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, you don't need to do anything. I think

24 it's been taken care of.

25 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: We'll have to be reminded of what the Sanction

Page 5021

1 is, please.

2 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, the Sanction is a computer programme

3 that we have here that allows us to show videotapes.

4 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting.


6 Q. This is -- at the beginning where you see TV Belgrade, do you

7 recognise this image?

8 A. Yes, I do. As far as I can see, this is a shot of Knin taken from

9 the fort.

10 Q. Do you recognise this image?

11 A. The man in the uniform is Milan Martic.

12 MR. WHITING: If the record could reflect that the witness has

13 identified Milan Martic in the video clip, please.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 While the video clip is there, can I just ask a question?

16 MR. WHITING: Of course.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: That uniform that Mr. Martic is wearing, how does

18 it compare to any of the uniforms that were worn by any of the people that

19 you saw on that day?

20 THE WITNESS: I don't recall him wearing that uniform when I met

21 him.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no, I understand. But this one that he's

23 wearing now on the clip.


25 JUDGE MOLOTO: How does it compare with any of the uniforms that

Page 5022

1 you saw in Dvor? Does it resemble any of those that you saw there?

2 THE WITNESS: Some of the men may have been wearing this, but --

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not able to say which men?

4 THE WITNESS: It's 15 years ago, and I've seen a lot of war in the

5 meantime. I can't remember every uniform that every soldier has worn,

6 Your Honour, I'm sorry.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine.

8 Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting.

9 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Sorry, just following on what Judge Moloto

10 asked, what about the badges, the insignia?

11 THE WITNESS: The insignia changed over time, and I would have to

12 put on my spectacles. They may have already had those insignia in July

13 1991, but I cannot recall precisely and, therefore, I think it's probably

14 better for me to say I don't know to be -- in all honesty.

15 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honours. And we'll just continue

17 with the clip.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MR. WHITING: Could we pause it here, please?

20 Q. Mr. Van Lynden, do you recognise anybody in this image?

21 A. The man wearing the beret is Captain Dragan.

22 MR. WHITING: Your Honour --

23 THE WITNESS: Being interviewed, the man being interviewed.


25 Q. Thank you. I think that probably sufficiently identifies it, but

Page 5023

1 just -- in case there's need, I'll put on the record the time stamp which

2 is 00:31:15.3. And he's the only man wearing the beret in the image and

3 he's being interviewed.

4 Thank you. I'm done with that exhibit.

5 And in fact, those are all my questions. Thank you very much,

6 Mr. Van Lynden.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting.

8 Mr. Milovancevic.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the

10 cross-examination of this witness will be conducted by my colleague,

11 Mr. Nikola Perovic, co-counsel.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

13 Mr. Perovic.

14 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Perovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Van Lynden, I assume you've understood that

17 I'm one of the counsel, co-counsel, of the accused, Mr. Milan Martic, and

18 I'm going to start the cross-examination, as provided for by the Rules of

19 Procedure and Evidence in this Tribunal.

20 From your personal data, your CV, I see that as a correspondent

21 you worked for 22 years as a war correspondent, in fact?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You also state that you were a reserve officer, a lieutenant, in

24 the Netherlands navy?

25 A. No, I was a second lieutenant [Realtime transcript read in error

Page 5024

1 "lieutenant-colonel"] in the Royal Netherlands Marine Corps, not in the

2 navy.

3 Q. And today I heard in response to a question from the Prosecutor,

4 that you have completed secondary school. Is that right?

5 A. Your Honour, may I just point out that it's written here that I

6 was a lieutenant-colonel. I wasn't a lieutenant-colonel, I was merely a

7 second lieutenant.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see what's written there says: "No, I was a 2nd

9 Lieutenant-Colonel" -- oh, yes, second lieutenant.

10 THE WITNESS: Just a second lieutenant.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

12 THE WITNESS: Sorry, to come back to your question. Yes, I

13 completed secondary school in the United Kingdom, and then also I did a

14 bachelor degree at university in the United Kingdom.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: In what course?

16 THE WITNESS: In sociology, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

18 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] And thank the Court for its

21 assistance.

22 Q. I have just asked you that because in your CV that portion was

23 lacking, at least the CV and the information that I had before me.

24 On two occasions you made statements for the Prosecution, once in

25 2001 and the second time in 2002. Is that correct?

Page 5025

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So you confirm that you gave those two statements. Is that right?

3 A. Yes, I gave two statements.

4 Q. And both are within the e-court system, so if necessary, we'll be

5 able to refer to them in due course.

6 In September 2003, you also testified before this Tribunal at the

7 Slobodan Milosevic trial. Is that right?

8 A. September or October 2003, yes.

9 Q. You started reporting from Croatia in July 1991. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, as I've already stated.

11 Q. Was that the first time you visited Croatia, after the crisis

12 started?

13 A. Yes, it was.

14 Q. So before that you didn't have any direct knowledge about the

15 events in those parts?

16 A. I had been in Slovenia in June and then the first part of July

17 1991. I did actually visit Zagreb on one day, but that was simply to send

18 a story from the Slovene-Croatia border because Zagreb television was

19 closer than Ljubljana television, but I didn't spend any real time in

20 Croatia. So this is my first time in the zone of battle, if you like,

21 within Croatia.

22 Q. So that was the first time you gained first-hand knowledge about

23 the events in Croatia, in July 1991. Would that be right?

24 A. That would be right, yes.

25 Q. However, when you started reporting from Croatia, as far as I

Page 5026

1 understood it from your statement, you weren't permanently stationed over

2 there but your headquarters were in Bihac, in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that

3 right?

4 A. We stayed in a hotel in Bihac and used the facilities of the

5 television stations in Bihac, but the work during the day took us into

6 Banija and later into Krajina. But really where I was based was Belgrade,

7 and that's the base that I would keep throughout the rest of 1991,

8 sometimes taking me to Vukovar, sometimes taking me to Cavtat and

9 Dubrovnik areas. It depends on where the fighting was going on.

10 Q. At the time there was no conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina, right,

11 when you were in Bihac?

12 A. There was no conflict in Bihac in 1991, no.

13 Q. As far as I was able to understand from your statements, you sent

14 your reports via satellite communication, satellite link from Bihac. Is

15 that right? Would that be the right conclusion?

16 A. As I recall, it went from Bihac to Sarajevo, from Sarajevo to

17 Belgrade. In Belgrade the report would be taped and separately sent by

18 satellite from Belgrade to London. Precisely the link between Bihac and

19 Sarajevo, I'm not aware of the precise link that this was.

20 Q. Does that mean that you didn't have the possibility of doing that

21 from the area from which you were reporting?

22 A. No, there was no link to do it from Dvor, for instance. One could

23 do it from Knin, but not from Dvor.

24 Q. So each time you sent out your report, you had to go to Bihac.

25 Right?

Page 5027

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. You said something about that today, and also this is contained in

3 your statements. You said that as soon as you arrived in Bihac, that

4 first morning, you crossed the border on the River Una and reached the

5 village of Struga. Is that right?

6 A. We had arrived in Bihac the previous evening, and on -- what I

7 recall, but I may be wrong, was a Saturday -- early on the Saturday

8 morning we met up with the correspondent and cameraman of Belgrade TV in

9 Bosanski Novi and then crossed over the bridge into Dvor and drove on with

10 them to the village of Struga.

11 Q. When you reached Struga, as I understand it from what you said,

12 the units of the Yugoslav People's Army of the day were already deployed

13 there. Is that right?

14 A. Yes, that's what I recall.

15 Q. And I further conclude from that that the conflict that you talked

16 about had already finished, was already over. Would that be right?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. You also said in your witness statement that it seemed to you that

19 the commander of those JNA units really did try to separate the two sides

20 involved in the conflict. Is that what you said, the two groups?

21 A. Yes, that was our impression, that he had been ordered to deploy

22 to see that there was no further fighting, and that he was sincere in

23 doing that, yes.

24 Q. In your second statement in 2002 to the Prosecution you talk about

25 this group on the Serb side as being a Serb militia, and you explain that

Page 5028

1 when you say "Serb militia" --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

3 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, there have been now several questions

4 about the statements of the witness. I wonder if they could be made

5 available to him if there are going to be questions.

6 I also -- I suggest that they would be made available to him in

7 hard copy. I think it's very hard to follow on the e-court the statements

8 and follow along where they are, especially when it jumps around.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Perovic, do you have hard copy statements in

10 English for the witness, hopefully also for the Chamber?

11 MR. PEROVIC: [Microphone not activated].

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

13 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I thought the

14 statements were in the system; that's why I haven't got them in hard copy.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand.

16 Mr. Whiting, it doesn't look like we've got hard copies, and I

17 think it was quite legitimate to -- not to provide hard copies if he

18 thought that they can be found in the system.

19 MR. WHITING: Well, I have no objection to everybody using hard

20 copies -- the e-court system. I do think that for the witness, if there

21 is a hard copy, it's -- I think it's easier. I just -- with the last

22 witness it tended to get off the screen and then back on, and it just -- I

23 didn't think it worked very well. So if there's one hard copy for the

24 witness and everyone else can follow on e-court.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand, but I don't think -- I think what

Page 5029

1 Mr. Perovic is saying is that there isn't such a copy.

2 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do have one copy in

3 English. It is the February 2002 statement.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Perovic. And you don't

5 have a copy of the other statement, the second statement?

6 MR. WHITING: I have a copy of the other one that's unmarked.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, thank you very much.

8 And then can we have it on the system so that -- for those of us

9 who don't have the hard copy.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you very much.

12 Can we have these statements on the system, please.

13 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] May I resume, Your Honour?

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may resume, Mr. Perovic. Sorry about that.

15 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Van Lynden, you now have both statements in front of you so

17 you'll be able to use both of them. We were talking about the 2002

18 statement and page 2 of that statement. You called the group on the Serb

19 side, as you referred to it, as the Serb militia. And you explain

20 that: "By Serb militia, I mean local armed Serbs, not the regular army."

21 Is that right?

22 A. Yes, otherwise you can call them the Territorial Defence forces.

23 Q. Yes, that's precisely what I wanted to ask you. Today for the

24 first time you used the term "Territorial Defence." You didn't do that on

25 the first or the second occasion when you gave your statement, neither did

Page 5030

1 you use that term during your testimony in the Milosevic trial. So you're

2 mentioning the Territorial Defence for the first time today. Previously

3 you've referred to these men as the Serb militia. Do you equate the two?

4 Is it the same?

5 A. For instance, with Captain Dragan, I would call that a separate

6 militia. With these men and those that I encountered in other places, it

7 was. But it's not always the same, no. But, as I recall, the men that I

8 saw in Dvor came under a command that was part of the Territorial Defence

9 forces.

10 Q. You described to us what the members of these units looked like.

11 You said they were people who wore different types of uniform. Some of

12 them were in camouflage uniform, mixed with civilian clothes, others had

13 hunting rifles, others again had Kalashnikovs or machine-guns. Is that

14 the description you would give us today as well?

15 A. Yes, that's the description I have given today.

16 Q. So they weren't members of the police force?

17 A. No. The police force would have worn a different uniform.

18 Q. You also said that in the conflict in the village of Struga, among

19 others, two Serbs were killed. Is that right?

20 A. That's correct. I went to their funeral on the following day.

21 Q. Did you have the opportunity of seeing one of the members of the

22 group that took part in the conflict on the Croatian side, so a Croatian

23 member?

24 A. I have no recall of meeting any armed Croat while I was in Struga.

25 I saw, I think, two of the dead and they didn't appear to me to have been

Page 5031

1 members of the police. They were certainly not in police uniforms, and

2 whether these men had been carrying weapons or not, it was impossible for

3 me to tell. They were male.

4 Q. However, from the fact that these two Serbs were killed, I

5 conclude that the Croats would have had to have been armed as well. Would

6 you agree with my conclusion?

7 A. Absolutely. And as I've already said to the Court in my earlier

8 testimony, there must have been men with guns who fired back when they

9 were attacked.

10 Q. Do you exclude the possibility of those armed Croats who opened

11 fire when they were attacked were, at the same time, members of some

12 organised military unit, for instance, regardless of the fact that they

13 were wearing civilian clothes?

14 A. I was not told, also not by the lieutenant-colonel of the JNA of

15 the presence of any armed military unit. We asked, but he said that he

16 was not aware of any such Croat military unit being there.

17 Q. After that you went to Dvor Na Uni, where you met Captain Dragan

18 for the first time and he took you to Glina; and, as you told us, his

19 forces had just taken control of Glina, as he explained to you. Is that

20 right?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. In that same statement of 2002, on page 2 again, you described

23 Captain Dragan's men, and you said that they had their own uniforms, not

24 western camouflage and not the JNA ones either. Is that right?

25 A. That's as I remember it, yes.

Page 5032

1 Q. Would you now be able to tell us what those uniforms looked like

2 that Captain Dragan's men wore? Would you be able to describe them better

3 or more closely now? If you can't remember, I don't insist.

4 A. No. As I have already said to the Judges, I don't have a precise

5 recollection of these uniforms, no. I do have a recollection of them

6 being different and recognisably different, but precisely why -- I'm

7 sorry, I've seen too many uniforms in the meantime.

8 Q. Yes, I understand. On page 3 of that same statement you say that

9 Captain Dragan took you to the police station in Glina where he showed you

10 a human skull, on which it said "Dragan" and that there was a text on the

11 skull reading: "Wanted dead or alive."

12 Is that right?

13 A. Words of that nature. But as I recall, written in Serbo-Croat and

14 not in English. So this was translated for me.

15 Q. In that same statement - and you said something about that today

16 as well - that on the walls of that police station the letter U had been

17 written up. Can you explain what that letter means or those letters mean?

18 A. Again, as I've already said in earlier testimony, this U was

19 painted in the manner that I was told had been used during the Second

20 World War during the regime of Ante Pavelic, the Ustasha regime, so this

21 stood for "Ustasha."

22 Q. Did the Croatian forces have control of that police station

23 previously; do you know that? I mean the police station in Glina to which

24 Captain Dragan took you. Was it in the hands of the Croatian forces

25 before that?

Page 5033

1 A. It was, I imagine, controlled by the Croatian police. It was a

2 police station -- so yes, but by the Croatian police, not by any other

3 kind of force that I am aware of, nor did Captain Dragan say anything else

4 that anybody else had been in it, just the Croatian police.

5 Q. The following day, you saw Captain Dragan once again at

6 Dvor Na Uni at the burial of the Serbs who were killed in Struga. Is that

7 right?

8 A. No, I did not see him at the funeral. He -- I saw him earlier in

9 the day when he gave a press conference. I don't remember him attending

10 the funeral.

11 Q. When he spoke about the fact that all the Croats under Serb

12 control should be treated in the proper manner, properly, and that the

13 Serbs should not make the mistakes that his enemies had made -- that their

14 enemies had made - you remember speaking about that - did Captain Dragan

15 leave a sincere impression on you? Did he -- did you think he was sincere

16 in what he was saying?

17 A. Yes, that was our impression, that he meant this, that he was

18 aware that it would seriously affect the standing of Serbia and the Serbs

19 in the international community if they were to make the same mistakes that

20 the Ustasha had made in the Second World War.

21 Q. You said something about the people that Captain Dragan commanded.

22 You also said something about that at the Milosevic trial, and you said

23 that those people seemed to be more disciplined and better dressed and

24 equipped than other members of armed formations. Was that your

25 impression?

Page 5034

1 A. Compared to the men that I had seen in Dvor, yes, this was a --

2 looked like an organised unit. There was discipline. There was a

3 hierarchy of order, of commanders, and it appeared to us - and when we

4 asked him he confirmed it - that these men had been trained for a period

5 of time. He did not tell us for how long they had been trained, but he

6 said that they had undertaken training, and that's why it was an organised

7 force that he was -- and disciplined force that he was leading.

8 Q. You said something today about the captain or altercation between

9 Captain Dragan and a high-ranking Yugoslav officer in Glina, but when

10 asked by the Prosecutor you couldn't tell us any more about that, why the

11 altercation took place in the first place, what the clash was about.

12 A. No -- I think I did, actually, explain that this -- as I recall,

13 the major, but I may be wrong in the rank of the Yugoslav officer, but

14 that he ordered Captain Dragan and his men to leave Glina and that was the

15 reason for the altercation. And I think that I did mention that in my

16 earlier testimony to the Court. Captain Dragan refused to leave, and

17 therefore there was this altercation between the two of them.

18 Q. Yes, that is true. Maybe my question wasn't as precise as it

19 should have been. What I wanted to ask you was this: Were you able to

20 discern why this JNA officer asked Captain Dragan to leave Glina or,

21 rather, to leave it to the Yugoslav People's Army, as the regular units.

22 Were you able to deduce that from anything they said?

23 A. As I think I've also explained to the Court, I was not in a

24 position to actually have a conversation with this officer because he was

25 in the shouting match with Captain Dragan. But we imagined, and he may

Page 5035

1 well have said that he had orders from higher up within the Yugoslav

2 People's Army, to see to it that Captain Dragan withdrew his militia. And

3 therefore, I imagine this officer was simply trying to carry out his

4 orders.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: What language did they speak?

6 THE WITNESS: They spoke in what I would call Serbo-Croat, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know Serbo-Croat?

9 THE WITNESS: I do not.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You wouldn't have understood what they were saying

11 to each other?

12 THE WITNESS: No, but I had my producer with me, who was

13 translating.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, when you said he may have said that these were

15 orders from above, is that an assumption on your part or is that what your

16 co-producer told you?

17 THE WITNESS: I have no absolutely precise recollection of that

18 one conversation 15 years ago, Your Honour, but I do remember that he

19 clearly said that Captain Dragan should leave and his men should leave

20 Glina and that the JNA should be allowed to take over control. The

21 precise manner of words, I don't recall.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you don't know whether that's an assumption on

23 your part or something you heard from somebody else? You said he said to

24 you -- you said: But we imagined he may have well have -- he may well

25 have said that he had orders from higher up within the Yugoslav People's

Page 5036

1 Army --

2 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I cannot precisely recall whether he said he

3 had orders or not, but he -- what I do recall is that he told Captain

4 Dragan and his men to leave. Whether -- I imagine that that's on a basis

5 of orders from higher up, but that I don't know for certain.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You imagine. Thank you.

7 Sorry, Mr. Perovic, you may continue.

8 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. A few days after the funeral, were you -- or rather, you were not

10 in Dvor Na Uni anymore?

11 A. As far as I recall, we had a -- whether it was precisely the day

12 after or a couple of days, that I don't precisely remember when we met up

13 with Captain Dragan in Dvor again.

14 Q. Therefore, you met again in Dvor, you met Captain Dragan there,

15 and he told you on that occasion that he had arrested some local Serbs -

16 you mentioned about ten of them - for whom he claimed they killed four

17 Croatian women. Is that correct? You were told this by Captain Dragan?

18 A. We were told this by Captain Dragan. I never saw the women

19 myself.

20 Q. Therefore, the only thing you know about the event is what you

21 were told by Captain Dragan himself?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. He didn't tell you what unit those ten men belonged to, the ten

24 that he had detained?

25 A. From the -- the local forces in Dvor, local Serb forces.

Page 5037

1 Q. Is that your conclusion or was -- were you told this by Dragan?

2 A. That's what I remember him telling us.

3 Q. Did Captain Dragan at the time explain to you how he came to learn

4 about that murder and did he explain how he managed to establish that

5 those men he had detained were the perpetrators?

6 A. I don't remember him giving a precise explanation as to how he had

7 found out. We imagined that he had been in Dvor and he had heard about

8 it, but we don't know from whom. And I don't remember him telling us in

9 detail about how he had learnt about this, no.

10 Q. Yes. On page 3 of your statement from 2002 you mention how

11 impressed you were with Captain Dragan's resolve to punish the men for

12 whom he held -- thought were responsible for the murders. You said you

13 were impressed by his resolve in that regard. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that is correct. I was impressed with his resolve to see to

15 it that the rule of law remained in place. I mean, he wasn't -- he felt

16 that these people should be on -- put on trial for the acts that they had

17 committed; that's the rule of law. He wasn't taking the law into his own

18 hands.

19 Q. Therefore, you've provided an answer which now forces me to ask

20 the following question: Did Captain Dragan have any such authority to

21 arrest and institute proceedings against people who may have committed

22 crimes, since we are discussing the rule of law?

23 A. I don't think he would claim to have had the power to institute

24 proceedings, as you put it. He felt that he did have the authority to

25 arrest the men. Whether he actually had that authority was not up to me.

Page 5038

1 I mean, I just witnessed that he had arrested these men. Whether that was

2 part of the rule of law, you would have to ask other people.

3 Q. But you don't know that as -- for a fact, do you, whether that was

4 within the rule of law, the conduct of Captain Dragan?

5 A. He was not the police and he had arrested ten men. In a usual

6 state, it would be the police who would arrest such people. The

7 circumstances, of course, were not normal ones. There was already a

8 conflict, and that, I think, is why he believed that he had the authority

9 to act. Whether that is within your definition of the rule of law or not,

10 that's the way that the situation was on the ground, that he felt that he

11 did have the power and the authority to act at that time. But not ever

12 did he say to us that he would put these people on trial; he would hand

13 them over for trial. To whom, it was unclear.

14 Q. As regards this incident, you mentioned that a man arrived

15 subsequently and that you were told that that was Martic. You mentioned

16 the argument Captain Dragan had with him, which was concluded by Martic

17 ordering Dragan to release those men. Is that correct?

18 A. That is -- that is correct.

19 Q. The argument between the two of them took place in the Serbian

20 language?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Therefore, we now return to the problem mentioned by Judge Moloto.

23 You couldn't have understood the exchange, could you?

24 A. No, but I had Zoran Kusovac with me translating. And Captain

25 Dragan came to us afterwards to tell us that he had been ordered to

Page 5039

1 release the ten men.

2 Q. So you were told by Captain Dragan. You said that Captain Dragan

3 was quite upset and angry because he was forced to act in that way. Is

4 that correct?

5 A. Yes, he felt that this was a mistake because he felt that, as I

6 have stated earlier, that the Serbs should not make the same errors as

7 their enemies and that if a crime was committed by any Serb, that is Serbs

8 should be tried for it.

9 Q. Therefore, he cared to see that through, to have those who

10 committed a crime tried?

11 A. That's what he told us that he wanted, yes.

12 Q. Then you spoke about the next day. You said that you were in Knin

13 at a lunch with Captain Dragan and Milan Martic. On that occasion, did

14 you notice an animosity, a tension between the two? I'm asking you this

15 because it seemed logical for that to occur, having in mind their argument

16 the day before.

17 A. Yes, but I didn't notice a particular animosity or tension.

18 Captain Dragan told us that he was -- felt that a mistake had been made,

19 but he had had to follow the orders of Mr. Martic.

20 Q. Today you were shown a document, that being a letter by Nikola

21 Boljanic, who was chief of the war staff at Dvor Na Uni, at least that is

22 what is stated in the document. During the relevant time, did you know of

23 the existence of such a war staff and the aforementioned person in

24 Dvor Na Uni?

25 A. I was aware that there was a certain chain of command there.

Page 5040

1 Whether they called themselves a war star staff, no, I wasn't -- I don't

2 recall being told that.

3 I may have met this man. I don't remember his name. The only

4 name I remember from Dvor is, as I recall, someone called Vajagic, who I

5 think was the commanding officer there of this Territorial Defence, or the

6 militia, whatever you wish to call it. That's the only name that I can

7 remember.

8 Q. You were shown the document by the Prosecutor, and you had an

9 opportunity to read it. Apart from the event in the village of Struga, if

10 we leave that aside, did anything else in the document ring a bell, apart

11 from that event? That was in paragraph 4 of the report.

12 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I may. I think it would be fair to

13 show the document again to the witness, if he is going to ask that sort of

14 a question about it.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was going to suggest to Mr. Perovic.

16 You can tell him exactly what it is you want to talk about,

17 Mr. Perovic, you remember? You're cross-examining. Just tell him, and

18 if -- you can also refer him to the paragraph.

19 MR. WHITING: For assistance, it's Exhibit 588.

20 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, 588. We had it on the screen a

21 minute ago. That's the report by Nikola Boljanic, chief of war staff at

22 Dvor Na Uni.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: We may have that on the screen, please.

24 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Please scroll down to reach

25 paragraph 4. That is the document.

Page 5041

1 Q. Paragraph 4 mentions the event of the 28th of July, 1991. It

2 states: "During the evening ... I received information of an uncontrolled

3 and notorious deed by the members of the sabotage platoon, who that day

4 killed patients (women) at the Medical

5 Centre in Dvor."

6 That is the event I referred to. You were told this by Captain

7 Dragan, and that was the event because of which he arrested the men we

8 mentioned previously. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's what I imagine to be correct, yes. Although I don't

10 have a recall of the precise date.

11 Q. I cited the date from the report. Of course I understand that you

12 may not be able to remember the exact date. Apart from that event and

13 concerning the other events from the document, they are unfamiliar to you.

14 You have no knowledge of those, do you?

15 A. Can I just read through the entire document in that case? Is it

16 possible to just go to the beginning?

17 Q. Please go ahead.

18 A. Okay. No, I'm not aware of those other events.

19 Q. Therefore, these other events are unfamiliar to you.

20 As regards the event in Dvor, you can see in the report that

21 Boljanic states that members of a certain sabotage detachment, as

22 according to the information he had, perpetrated that crime, members of

23 the sabotage platoon. Did you know about that before this report was

24 shown to you?

25 A. I don't remember Captain Dragan ever telling us that it was

Page 5042

1 members from a precise unit, no.

2 Q. If I understood your answers during the testimony in chief and

3 having read your previous statements given to the OTP, I conclude that you

4 had only one direct contact or meeting, and that was during the lunch in

5 the environs of Knin. Is that correct?

6 A. One meeting with Milan Martic is what you are asking? Yes, that's

7 the only face-to-face and that we talked to each other, yes.

8 Q. You described Martic as the kind of person who wouldn't be

9 interested in journalists. Is that correct?

10 A. I described him as not seeing any value in spending time with

11 international, foreign journalists; whether he was willing to spend time

12 with local journalists, I don't know. But with people like myself,

13 foreign correspondents, he did not seem to be interested in talking to us,

14 no.

15 Q. In that context, in one of the answers provided during your

16 testimony in chief, you stated that you were under the impression that, by

17 definition, all journalists were spies to him, which was typical of the

18 old Yugoslav communist mentality. Hence, my question: What is this

19 typical old Yugoslav communist mentality?

20 MR. WHITING: Can I just -- I'm sorry, but I hate to be precise

21 here but I think it's important. I think that question slightly misstates

22 the evidence, because as the witness has just explained what he's talking

23 about was foreign journalists, and the last question doesn't make that

24 clear. It again talks about all journalists. If that could be made

25 clear, then otherwise I don't object to the question.

Page 5043

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Perovic.

2 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] I thought it was rather clear that

3 we were talking about foreign journalists.

4 Q. Based on your description of Martic's mentality, one concludes

5 that he did not believe foreigners, and that as far as he was concerned

6 all foreign journalists were spies, which was typical of the old Yugoslav

7 communist mentality. Is that correct? That was in the first statement

8 given to the OTP. I believe you have that before you on page 16.

9 A. That was indeed my impression. That was also confirmed in later

10 dealings with the Yugoslav People's Army, specifically around Vukovar,

11 where we met officers who, simply by definition, because we were foreign

12 journalists felt that we -- that they were, therefore, untrustworthy and

13 probably spies. And it was my impression at the time that Mr. Martic, who

14 came out of the police, was of a similar mentality and did not understand

15 or have the same understanding as Captain Dragan did that our presence was

16 actually an opportunity for the local Serbs to make their own case to the

17 international community.

18 Q. And this is what you understood as the old Yugoslav communist

19 mentality?

20 A. Yes. It was also explained to me by my producer that within the

21 armed forces or within the police forces there was an engrained, in-built

22 distrust of foreign correspondents.

23 Q. As regards Martic, you also said this on the same page, the same

24 paragraph, that he was a provincial person who knew little of Yugoslavia

25 beyond the boundaries of Krajina and let alone about Europe. Your

Page 5044

1 conclusion was that he was a small-time provincial cop. Were those your

2 words? Paragraph 5, page 16, the last sentence.

3 A. Paragraph 5, page -- I don't have five paragraphs on page 16. You

4 may have the Serb translation.

5 Q. Yes, perhaps that's where the misunderstanding is because I'm

6 looking at the B/C/S version.

7 A. Ah, yes, I have found what you -- it's actually on page 18 in the

8 English translation.

9 That was my impression of Mr. Martic, that he was quite different

10 in his mentality with dealing with figures like myself than, for instance,

11 Captain Dragan, who had been elsewhere. And that -- yes, that's -- I

12 would stand by that. That was my impression at the time following this

13 one lunch conversation.

14 Q. This impression of yours is what you mentioned in your statement

15 to the OTP by stating that he was a provincial type of person and a

16 small-time provincial cop. Is that so?

17 A. That's what I've written in the statement -- that's what's written

18 in the statement, yes.

19 Q. Would you deem that to be an insult, such a way of thinking about

20 someone?

21 A. No. I was asked for my impression and gave my impression.

22 Q. What would you say if someone were to say that you were a nosey

23 parker from the wide world? Would that be an insult?

24 MR. WHITING: I'm going to object to that.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

Page 5045

1 MR. WHITING: I'm going to object. I think that's -- that's

2 argumentative and it's really irrelevant and it's not treating the witness

3 properly.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Perovic.

5 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] May I clarify, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Respond to the objection.

7 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Of course it is unfounded, but --

8 and argumentative, but I compared two possible insults. One stated by the

9 witness as regards the accused, and I just wanted to put him in a

10 hypothetical situation, if he were characterised in a similar way, to see

11 whether he would object to that. That's why I don't agree with the

12 objection in full.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is objectionable, for starters, is that you

14 are being argumentative. The witness has explained to you that he was

15 asked for his impression, and he gave his impression. And if you find

16 that his impression was offensive, then he probably didn't have any other

17 way of putting it other than -- if he was to say honestly what he thought,

18 that's what he thought. And what we want to know now today is just the

19 facts of the case, not what he would think or how he would feel if he was

20 addressed similarly.

21 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness's

22 impression of the accused is not what I find insulting, but rather the

23 words he used. Since he finds no insult in stating that someone is a

24 provincial person and a small-time provincial cop, I just asked the

25 witness whether he would be insulted if someone were to say something

Page 5046

1 similar in a similar situation for or about him. I didn't want to go

2 beyond that.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question is disallowed, Mr. Perovic.

4 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

5 Q. In your statements given to the OTP and during your testimony

6 today -- or from your testimony, I would conclude that you think highly of

7 yourself. You were a war correspondent for a great number of years and

8 you claim for yourself to be not in the least biased?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.

10 MR. WHITING: I'm going to object. The -- certainly to the first

11 part, which I don't think is relevant. And with respect to the second

12 part, the bias, I think that's vague.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Perovic.

14 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] On page 16 in the last paragraph, I

15 don't know where that is in the English version, in B/C/S it's page 16,

16 the last sentence -- I think it's on page 18 of the English. The witness

17 says of himself that: "I wasn't at all biased," and I was quoting him.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is your response to the first part, "you think

19 highly of yourself"?

20 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, you said -- when Mr. Whiting objected, you

22 had said the following: "In your statements given to the OTP and during

23 your testimony today -- or from your testimony, I would conclude that you

24 think highly of yourself. A war correspondent for a great number of years

25 and you claim for yourself to be not in the least biased."

Page 5047

1 Now, Mr. Whiting has objected to the statement that you say the

2 witness thinks highly of himself and also to the statement that you say he

3 doesn't -- he thinks he is not in the least biased. You have explained to

4 us why you use the word "biased" because he has used it himself in his

5 statement.

6 My question to you is: What is your response to the objection to

7 the first part of that statement by you; namely, that the witness thinks

8 highly of himself?

9 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Highly of himself or has a good

10 opinion of himself, that doesn't matter, it's the same thing. But if

11 someone says he's a very well experienced professional of a war -- being a

12 war correspondent for many years, that he's completely objective and

13 non-biased, then I conclude that he has a good opinion of himself, and

14 that's why I ask that, because they are the words the witness used to

15 describe himself.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure -- are you saying that in the

17 statement the witness said he thinks highly of himself? If you say those

18 are the words he used to describe himself? He just told what his

19 experience is as a war correspondent, but does the fact that one gives

20 one's curriculum vitae mean that that person thinks highly of himself or

21 are you just explaining who you are?

22 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] I accept that, Your Honour, and I

23 will re-formulate the question and leave out anything that creates a

24 misunderstanding. So the witness has said that he's an experienced

25 journalist, a true professional, and that he wasn't in the least biased.

Page 5048

1 Those are his words.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Now, my question is this: Whether he is certain and quite

5 convinced that he wasn't perhaps biased in reporting from the former

6 Yugoslavia.

7 A. No, I don't believe that I was biased in reporting from the former

8 Yugoslavia.

9 Q. And just one more point. You state in the summary, the

10 penultimate sentence says: "The world could see where the blame -- the

11 greatest blame lies."

12 And in that regard I have the following question: What do you

13 mean by "the world," when you say "the world"? Do you mean your great

14 news agency network or what? What do you consider to be "the world"?

15 When you say "the world was able to see where the greatest blame lies,"

16 what did you mean by "the world"?

17 I'm asking you that because this Court in this case and other

18 cases is here to establish where the blame lies, who is to blame and to

19 what extent. Now, 15 years ago you say that "the world could see where

20 the greatest blame lies." So what do you mean when you say "the world"?

21 A. I didn't say 15 years ago; this is written in the statement. I

22 believe that the reporting that was done by journalists, not just by

23 myself but by hundreds of journalists, of the events that occurred during

24 the 1990s in the former Yugoslavia showed, quite clearly, to anyone who

25 was watching, reading, and listening what occurred during that conflict

Page 5049

1 and where the majority of the fault lies.

2 As far as I am aware, the work of this Tribunal is to try

3 individual members of the -- citizens of the former Yugoslavia for

4 individual crimes they committed. Those are two separate things.

5 Q. So can you give me an answer? What is "the world" as far as

6 you're concerned?

7 A. I meant the outside -- the international community, anyone who

8 reads newspapers, watches television, or listens to radio. I'm --

9 Q. And that's your answer?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that completes my

12 cross-examination. I have no further questions for this witness. Thank

13 you.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Perovic.

15 Mr. Whiting.

16 MR. WHITING: No questions. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you Mr. Whiting.

18 Judge?


20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, please. Just a clarification about this

22 understanding of the role of a journalist in such times.

23 You spoke about the "in-built distrust to foreign journalists" in

24 certain situations. And this you wouldn't regard a phenomenon of former

25 Yugoslavia only, would you?

Page 5050

1 A. Certainly not, Your Honour. I've encountered this in countries

2 like Iraq, Iran, and indeed I live in a former communist state, Bulgaria.

3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: More of a general nature?

4 A. It's more of a general nature, yes.


6 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: No questions from this witness. Thank you.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 I also have no questions. I think mine were answered during your

9 testimony.

10 Thank you very much -- I beg your pardon.

11 Any questions arising from Judge Hoepfel's questions?

12 MR. WHITING: No. Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Perovic.

14 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] No. Thank you, Your Honour. No

15 further questions from me.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 Mr. Van Lynden, thank you so much for coming to testify. The

18 Bench -- the Chamber is quite grateful to you for your time. This brings

19 us to the end of your testimony. You are excused. You may stand down.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want to call your next witness or shall that

23 be a convenient time?

24 MR. WHITING: Well, actually, Your Honour, we do not have another

25 witness for today. We had expected -- we had expected that Mr. Kirudja

Page 5051

1 would finish today and then when we made the arrangements to sit longer,

2 we had already sent our next witness home, and so we don't have another

3 witness until Tuesday.

4 I do have two small housekeeping matters to take care of.


6 MR. WHITING: The first is I would just ask if -- I think it was

7 clear towards the end of the cross-examination there that -- with this

8 last witness that Mr. -- that Defence counsel was making references to the

9 statement of the witness and the witness had the statement but nobody else

10 did and it wasn't come up on e-court. It seems to me that it's not an

11 efficient practice to have the statements up an e-court because documents

12 get up and then the statement comes down. And so if we're going to -- I

13 would ask that we adopt a practice that if there's going to be

14 cross-examination on statements that hard copies be provided. I think

15 that that works better.

16 Secondly, the Court on -- ordered us to make selections with

17 respect to those exhibits, and we have done so, as ordered, with respect

18 to Exhibit 24 and Exhibit 476. Our selection has been loaded up as a

19 separate exhibit into e-court. I can give the document ID numbers, and if

20 the registrar could be asked to assign exhibit numbers to -- I don't think

21 there is a need to call it up, but if we could just assign exhibit

22 numbers.

23 With respect to the Exhibit 24, our selection is under document

24 ID number 0035-9426.1; and with respect to Exhibit 476 the -- our

25 selection is under document ID number in e-court 0115-7663.1. So I think

Page 5052

1 all that needs to be done is if the registrar could be asked to assign

2 exhibit numbers to those two documents, those two batches, as it were.

3 Thank you.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic -- I beg your

5 pardon, Mr. Whiting.

6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: If you didn't want to react to that.

7 Wouldn't that remain the same exhibit numbers and the old material

8 taken out?

9 MR. WHITING: Well, that's one way to do it, though if the Defence

10 makes -- also makes selections, then that's going to have to be a new --

11 theirs will have to be a new exhibit. But it's -- however -- whatever's

12 most convenient and works best. The old exhibits could be taken out ...

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And am I right to say that it is not possible in

14 the -- we are coming to you, Mr. Milovancevic. I'm not -- I'm not

15 disregarding you. Am I right in saying that in the e-court it's not

16 possible to have an A and B section of the same exhibit? You can't say

17 Prosecution's exhibits, for instance, are 24A; and those from the Defence

18 would be 24B? That's not possible?

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence will

20 accept the standpoint of the Court, which indicates the most rational way

21 to proceed. Of course, that is food for thought, and I'm sure that

22 there -- there will always be a problem if we have duplication. But with

23 your permission I would like to say one more thing with respect to the

24 books. When the Trial Chamber asked me to give my opinion of one book or

25 provide a copy of one book, I later realised that it was all three books

Page 5053

1 that were concerned. So I should like to ask the Trial Chamber to extend

2 the deadline because I had to adjust our work schedule for just one book.

3 Why I understood it to be just one book that you were requiring, I don't

4 know, so please accept my apologies, and I'd like to have until next

5 Monday for all three books.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: There were three exhibits, Mr. Milovancevic. Each

7 exhibit related to a book. How you could have thought that it was one

8 book I do not understand. However, we are not even sitting on Monday; it

9 will have to be Tuesday. Can you make sure that you let us have those on

10 Tuesday?

11 Can I come back to my question: Is that possible to have an A and

12 a B?

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I --

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just finish, Mr. Milovancevic?

17 I'm going to suggest then that registry finds the best way to give

18 exhibit numbers to those documents, the best way you find.

19 What I think is of interest to the Chamber is if there is a way of

20 linking the exhibits so that is known that they are related; if it's not

21 possible, it's not possible.

22 The other point that you had raised, Mr. Whiting, was the question

23 of statements being given in hard copy if they are -- if we know we are

24 going to use them.

25 Mr. Milovancevic, do you have anything to say to that? Do you

Page 5054

1 think you can ...

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. If that is

3 easier, and it seems to be easier and more efficient, so we agree. No

4 problem there. All we need to know is that that's what it's going to be

5 like for the future. But I wanted to say something else in respect of

6 what Mr. Whiting has just said.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead, Mr. Milovancevic.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] We are rather worried about the

9 situation today, that is to say that we don't have another witness,

10 whereas yesterday we had to work overtime with a completely different

11 schedule and to adapt our cross-examination to those extraordinary

12 circumstances, only to be told today that the Prosecutor thought that

13 Mr. Kirudja would be cross-examined today as well. All I can do now is

14 ask them what this is all about. Why would the Defence team be placed in

15 this position for us to adjourn early because there's no other witness for

16 today? I don't think that is serious behaviour.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have any answer, Mr. Whiting?

18 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour, I thought I had explained it.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought so, too.

20 MR. WHITING: But what happened was -- I'm losing track of my

21 days. But yesterday, yesterday we were looking at the schedule and it

22 seemed quite clear to us that Mr. Kirudja would continue into today and

23 then we would have this witness and it would basically fill today, and we

24 would not have the need for another witness. So in the morning the first

25 thing we did was we arranged for the witness, the expert, Mr. Poje, to go

Page 5055

1 back, particularly since we did not want him to sit for three days in

2 The Hague in the interruption of his testimony.

3 Subsequent -- after we had made those arrangements, we learned

4 this information about Mr. Kirudja, that he needed to get back, if

5 possible, today and so we -- in the morning. And so then we took the

6 steps to see if we could have a longer sitting, which was not resolved

7 until shortly before the -- we sat and it wasn't -- even when we had taken

8 those steps, it was not clear that we would finish with him yesterday. So

9 we did not then go back and bring Mr. Poje back. It had already been

10 done. He was already on his way to the airport, so it could not be

11 changed.

12 So -- and then finally I don't think -- I would note that

13 Mr. Milovancevic finished with plenty of time yesterday, his

14 cross-examination, and I think it was made clear to him that if he needed

15 to go into today to continue his cross that would be possible. So I don't

16 think he can claim any prejudice here from anything that has occurred.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it my understanding -- correct understanding

18 that in fact the arrangement to sit a little out of kilter with our normal

19 arrangement yesterday was primarily to accommodate Mr. Kirudja?

20 MR. WHITING: It was completely to accommodate Mr. Kirudja. That

21 was the only reason to do that.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: That was the only reason?

23 MR. WHITING: That is correct, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: So today there was nothing -- there was nobody to

25 accommodate?

Page 5056

1 MR. WHITING: That's correct.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Even if you had a witness for today you would still

3 have asked for what you asked for yesterday, wouldn't you?

4 MR. WHITING: That's correct, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

6 Okay. Sorry, Judge Nosworthy was just reminding me to say, the

7 registrar, as you assign those exhibit numbers you will do that out of

8 court. You don't have to bother to try and do them now. Thank you so

9 much.

10 Anyway, Mr. Milovancevic, you say you will try to accommodate that

11 request that we have hard copies of statements if we think we are going

12 to -- if we know we are going to use them in cross-examination or in

13 examination-in-chief. Thank you so much for that.

14 I guess you heard the answer from Mr. Whiting. I don't think I

15 want to take the matter any further. The only comment I would like to

16 make is on the request for hard copy statements, that when we do an

17 assessment of the e-court we shall then say it is so inefficient we need

18 the hard copies of statements.

19 Court is going to adjourn now. We will reconvene on Tuesday,

20 the 6th of June at 9.00 in the morning in this courtroom.

21 Court adjourned.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.26 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day of

24 June, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.