Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5057

1 Tuesday, 6 June 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.

6 MR. WHITING: Mr. Black will be handling the next witness.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 Mr. Black.

9 MR. BLACK: Good morning, Your Honours. Unless the Chamber has

10 any initial business, I would call the next Prosecution witness,

11 Lieutenant Colonel Jozef Poje.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.

13 [The witness entered court]


15 [Witness answered through interpretation]

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Main the witness please take the declaration.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.

20 Mr. Black.

21 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

22 Examination by Mr. Black:

23 Q. Good morning, sir. Can you understand me okay?

24 A. Good morning. Yes, I can.

25 Q. If at any time you can't understand one of my questions, please

Page 5058

1 just tell me and I'll try to state it more clearly.

2 A. Very well.

3 Q. Also, if you have any trouble with the headphones, with the volume

4 or if they're slipping, just let us know and the usher will help you.

5 Now, can you please state your full name for the record.

6 A. I am Jozef Poje.

7 Q. And I'm ask you just a few questions about your background before

8 we get to the substance of your expert report. You were born in 1948 in

9 Slovenia; is that correct?

10 A. Yes. I was born on the 4th of March, 1948, in Ptuj, the Republic

11 of Slovenia.

12 Q. And did you move with your family to Croatia at some point in your

13 childhood?

14 A. In 1961, I moved from Ptuj to Pula in the Republic of Croatia.

15 Q. Please briefly tell the Trial Chamber about your experience in the

16 JNA up until the year 1991. Please tell what positions you held and where

17 you were based for each of those positions.

18 A. I went to secondary school or gymnasium and graduated in 1967. In

19 that same year, I went to the military academy in Belgrade, and I

20 graduated from the military academy in 1971 in Zadar as an artillery

21 second lieutenant from 1971 to 1975 I was the commander of a mortar

22 battery, 120 millimetre, in Idovcina, and that was the 253rd infantry

23 platoon, regiment. Then I was transferred to the anti-armour battery. I

24 was the commander of that battery in Ptuj. In 1978, I was redeployed to

25 the training centre in Zadar where I was a teacher in the subject of

Page 5059

1 theory and the rules of shooting, marksmanship. As a teacher I worked in

2 the educational centre of Zadar for 13 years, and at that time I taught

3 for a year in the school for reserve officers. For ten years I was at the

4 military academy in the artillery department, and then I spent two years

5 as a professor in the subject of firing theory and commander of various

6 divisions.

7 On the 2nd of August, 1991, I decided to leave the Yugoslav

8 People's Army.

9 Q. And where did you go?

10 A. From Zadar I went to Slovenia, and I gained employment in the

11 Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Slovenia. I worked -- spent one

12 year working in the department for development and education and tuition,

13 and from 1992 up until the present day I have been working in the

14 educational centre which is part of the military school centre and is now

15 called the command for the doctrine, development, education, and training

16 of forces.

17 Q. So are you an active member of the Slovenian armed forces?

18 A. I am still an active member of the armed forces of the Republic of

19 Slovenia and, as I've already said, I worked in the command for the

20 doctrine, development, training, and education where I am head of the

21 department for artillery in the centre for doctrinaire matters and

22 development.

23 Q. What military rank do you currently hold?

24 A. I currently hold the rank of lieutenant colonel.

25 Q. In a previous answer you mentioned that you were a teacher in the

Page 5060

1 subjects of theory and the rules of shooting. Did that relate to

2 artillery or some other kind of weapon?

3 A. I worked in the artillery as a commander and in the school centre

4 as well. The subject was firing theory, theory and practice, using

5 artillery.

6 Q. Has your teaching been purely theoretical or have you engaged also

7 in artillery exercises over the years?

8 A. During training, in addition to theoretical teaching in the

9 classroom we also did practical work, firing, artillery firing. And while

10 I was in Zadar, I fired about 15.000 different projectiles ranging from

11 20-millimetre projectiles until the -- up until the 155-millimetre

12 projectiles.

13 Q. Finally on the broad subject of background information, did you

14 testify as an expert on artillery issues in the Strugar case in this

15 Tribunal in 2004?

16 A. In 2004, I was here as an expert witness, that is true, to testify

17 about artillery matters in the Strugar case.

18 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant Colonel. Now, let me turn to this case, the

19 Prosecutor versus Milan Martic. Were you asked by the Office of the

20 Prosecutor to prepare an expert report in this case?

21 A. Yes, that's right. I was asked to prepare a report.

22 Q. And did you in fact prepare such a report?

23 A. I did. I wrote the report, and it is 80 pages long.

24 Q. If we could have trial Exhibit number 7 on the e-court, please.

25 Lieutenant Colonel, in just a moment on one of the screens in

Page 5061

1 front of you you'll see a document. Is that the report that you prepared

2 for this case?

3 A. Yes, it is. That is the report I prepared.

4 Q. And I also notice you have a document at the witness table with

5 you. Is that this same report?

6 A. Yes, it is. That's the report.

7 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, this report was admitted by your

8 decision of 13 January 2006. It is trial Exhibit number 7. And what I

9 would propose to do is give you each a hard copy of this report - the

10 witness has hard copy - and that is simply because we'll be looking at

11 several documents, so you can't have the report and the document on the

12 screen at the same time. I this I it will be more convenient. If I could

13 pass those to you. I do have another copy in B/C/S if the Defence needs

14 one, but I think they may have their own copy.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Black.

16 MR. BLACK: And one more thing, Your Honours. We did notice in

17 proofing a minor correction, and so I have page 33 just in the English

18 version. It's just a translation problem. The figures in these diagrams

19 which I've just handed up have the wrong numbers. The B/C/S was correct

20 but we failed to make the correction in the final version of the English

21 translation.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black.


24 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, what were you specifically asked to

25 address in your report?

Page 5062

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise to

2 my learned friend for interrupting him, but might the accused have a copy

3 of the report in his own language? He don't have one at the moment.

4 MR. BLACK: I do have an extra copy. I'd be happy to provide it.

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.


8 Q. Sorry for the interruption, Lieutenant Colonel Poje. Just a

9 procedural thing there.

10 My question was: What specifically were you asked to address in

11 your expert report?

12 A. The main task I was assigned in writing this report was to give my

13 professional opinion about the use of the self-propelled multiple rocket

14 launcher M87 Orkan and its effect on the city of Zagreb on the 2nd and 3rd

15 of May, 1995.

16 Q. Just so it's clear were you asked to provide a legal opinion about

17 the lawfulness of the shelling of Zagreb or some other kind of opinion?

18 A. No, I wasn't asked to leave a legal opinion about its effect on

19 Zagreb but as an artillery expert to provide information and data about

20 the effects of Orkan as a weapon, purely technically, from the technical

21 aspect, to provide technical data of the use of the Orkan and its effects,

22 the effects of the Orkan multiple rocket launcher.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. And one more question related to the scope of

24 your report. Were you asked to analyse any activities of the Croatian

25 armed forces?

Page 5063

1 A. No. I was not asked to address the activities of the Croatian

2 armed forces, so that in my report I make no mention of this subject

3 matter. That is to say I don't deal with the Croatian armed forces and

4 their activities in my report.

5 Q. What kinds of sources did you use in preparing your expert report?

6 A. In preparing my report, I used existing military literature, that

7 is to say the existing literature used by the Yugoslav People's Army.

8 Secondly, I used reports and documents provided to me by the Prosecution

9 for the purposes of writing my report. And thirdly, I used some other

10 sources, primarily those I found on the internet sites.

11 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, let me turn to the substance of your report.

12 Your report includes a lot of relevant information, but I'm going to focus

13 here in court just on the most important aspects. So to begin, please

14 turn to section 3.8.1. This is on page 45 in the B/C/S version.


16 And on page 37 in English, Your Honour.

17 Lieutenant Colonel, here you discuss in this section the

18 characteristics of the M87 Orkan multiple rocket launcher. Before get

19 into those details, one quick question regarding sources. In footnote 18,

20 you cite to a website. Did you consult any other sources regarding the

21 characteristics of the Orkan M87?

22 A. In my report I stated the literature in the footnotes, but I

23 omitted to include this literature. I studied the literature, the

24 tactics -- firing tactics for Orkan and some other sources that I also

25 found on the internet. Anyway, I decided to leave that in the report,

Page 5064

1 because the material found on that page is the most complete information

2 set out in the greatest detail on that site. So despite the fact that I

3 used other sources, the material I state here I compared to the firing

4 tables with some other internet sites. So there are no vital differences

5 with respect to the basic characteristics and intentions of Orkan, and

6 there weren't any vital differences between that and the material I

7 studied.

8 Q. Very well. Based on all the material that you viewed, what is the

9 Orkan M87 weapon system designed to do? What is its main use in combat?

10 A. The self-propelled multiple rocket launcher M87 Orkan is intended

11 to for action against live force and materiel force, and its destruction

12 power is great. That is the main aim of the system.

13 Q. When you say live force and materiel force, could you put that in

14 ordinary language for us? What kind of targets is it normally used

15 against?

16 A. The multiple rocket launcher intended for -- is intended for fire

17 support of the units, of the corps in the army. It can neutralise all

18 types of force. When I say live force, I mean the units themselves that

19 are being targeted. It can also be used against armoured vehicles.

20 Q. Maybe this is -- is -- seems obvious, but when you say the units

21 themselves, are you referring to personnel to soldiers themselves or some

22 other aspect of the units, just so it's clear please.

23 A. First of all, I mean the soldiers, because we know that units are

24 made up of soldiers and technical equipment, and the Orkan was designed to

25 act against the military unit in its entirety, both soldiers and technical

Page 5065

1 equipment and materiel.

2 Q. Was the M87 Orkan designed to be used against densely populated

3 areas such as a city?

4 A. In view of the fact that it has high dispersion capabilities,

5 Orkan is not principally suitable for use in populated areas. It is

6 designed for use outside populated areas. The reason for this is

7 primarily that its effects in populated areas, regardless of the fact that

8 there might be military targets in populated areas, there is a high

9 probability that parts of the rocket should be dispersed and affect the

10 civilian population, especially when the civilian population has not been

11 evacuated on time or has not taken refuge or shelter. So I would like to

12 mention once again Orkan is not intended for deployment in populated

13 areas.

14 Q. We'll come back to the subject of impact dispersion in some detail

15 a little later. Right now, according to your report the M87 Orkan

16 consists of a number of components including launcher vehicle, et cetera,

17 and I'd like to ask you a number of questions about those components. So

18 please look again at the beginning of section 3.8.1. This is on page 45

19 in B/C/S and page 37 in English. Lieutenant Colonel, what do we see in

20 the photograph on that page?

21 A. Would you repeat the page, please?

22 Q. I believe it should be on page 45. Also, you can see it on the

23 screen in front of you.

24 A. Yes. I can see it. That is an example of a launcher, the M87

25 Orkan launcher. The vehicle plus the launcher.

Page 5066

1 Q. You discussed the launcher and the vehicle in some detail in your

2 report, but could you briefly point out the most important characteristics

3 of the launcher and the vehicle.

4 A. As you can see on this picture, it is a vehicle with a launcher.

5 The launcher has 12 barrels. It is a 12-barrel launcher and it is

6 positioned, mounted on a FAP vehicle, 9-tonne, 8X8 FAP vehicle, a truck

7 which enables great manoeuvrability, great manoeuvre capability. It has a

8 massive 15 tonnes, and when the launcher is full, the overall mass of the

9 launcher is about 32 tonnes.

10 Q. How long does it take for the Orkan M87 to prepare for a firing

11 once it arrives at a launch location?

12 A. The preparation time, firing preparation time, is two to three

13 minutes.

14 Q. Does the Orkan M87 launch all of its rockets at once or does it

15 launch them simultaneously or, excuse me, one after another?

16 A. You can effect individual launches or simultaneous in a burst of

17 gunfire regulating the firing on two, four, or six seconds, which means

18 from barrel to barrel, and the interval between the firing from the first

19 to the last barrel is two seconds, four seconds -- intervals of two

20 seconds, four seconds, and six seconds, firing intervals.

21 Q. What is the approximate firing range of the M87 Orkan?

22 A. Generally speaking, in the literature that I studied it states

23 that the maximum firing range is something above 50 kilometres. In the

24 firing charts, numerical firing charts, this distance is given as 51.093

25 metres. And I'd like to mention that that is what you find in the

Page 5067

1 literature and in the firing charts, the maximum distance is greater than

2 a little greater than 50 kilometres.

3 Q. Let me turn your attention now to the rocket. What kind of rocket

4 is fired by the M87 Orkan?

5 A. Orkan can use two types of projectiles with two types of warheads

6 and cluster charges. It is M87, 262-millimetre calendar with two warheads

7 with a shaped charge in one warhead and a cluster charge in the other.

8 Q. I'm going to ask you about one of the warheads in a moment, but

9 before we get to that, is the R262-millimetre rocket a guided or an

10 unguided weapon?

11 A. As in all multiple rocket launchers, the Orkan is unguided. It

12 has a classical type trajectory without guidance.

13 Q. Could you perhaps explain a little bit more what it means that

14 it's a classical type projectile with no guidance?

15 A. That means that the projectile flies based on the elevation taken

16 and the speed it gains when leaving the barrel. At the moment when the

17 rocket propulsion engine ceases to work, then the flight is, as we say, a

18 free flight. As of that moment, we can no longer correct or adjust its

19 trajectory. It continues its flight based on the initial data given at

20 the firing, when the calculations were made for the firing. Based on the

21 elevation of the barrel and based on the initial speed, the projectile

22 follows a trajectory concluding its flight at the place of target

23 foreseen.

24 Concerning the actual flight of the rocket, of the projectile, we

25 cannot exercise any control over its trajectory once the initial

Page 5068

1 parameters have been exhausted.

2 Q. Thank you for that explanation. Now, let me go back to the war --

3 you mentioned two types of warhead and both are mentioned in your report,

4 but could you ask you to describe briefly the cluster warhead that uses

5 the shaped charge and fragmentation bomblets.

6 A. We stated that Orkan has two types of warheads, the fragmentation

7 bomblets warhead and a shaped charged projectile used for anti-armour

8 activity. There are 288 shaped charge bomblets with 420 pellets each.

9 The actual head opens up some 800 to 1.000 metres away from the target.

10 The container containing the bomblets is cut with the four mounted blades,

11 and the bomblets drop on the target. Each bomblet has a stabiliser

12 regulating the flight of the bomblet. At the same time, this textile band

13 alarms or arms the mechanical fuse when there is the contact with the

14 ground.

15 Bomblets have a shaped charge with fragmentation effect which is

16 achieved by some 420 pellets inside each bomblet. Its destruction force

17 covers the perimeter of some 10 metres. It also has a fragmentation

18 effect, because the explosive charge in the bomblet is constructed in such

19 a way that a fragmentation cone is created piercing armour, i.e., steel up

20 to 60-millimetres thick, which makes it able to pierce any existing type

21 of armour or tank from above.

22 Q. Thank you for that explanation. When you say that the destructive

23 force covers a perimeter of some 10 metres, is that for each of the 288

24 bomblets that you mentioned?

25 A. Yes. If we take one bomblet containing 420 pellets and in one

Page 5069

1 container in the warhead we have 288 bomblets, meaning the overall amount

2 is 288 times 420 pellets. The effect of the pellets of a specific bomblet

3 is 10 metres. Therefore, each bomblet can cover around 10 metres with its

4 pellets. Some sources mention the figure of more than 10 metres, but 10

5 metres is the mean value of the destruction force of the pellets of each

6 bomblet.

7 Q. And how large of an area do these bomblets, the 288 bomblets from

8 one rocket, cover?

9 A. The area covered by the 288 bomblets is around two hectares.

10 Q. With the assistance of the court officer, I'd now like to show you

11 an illustration which is 65 ter Exhibit number 21. If that could be

12 brought up on our screens, please.

13 Lieutenant Colonel, if you can look at this. Perhaps we can make

14 it smaller. That's fine. The full-page view is fine.

15 Lieutenant Colonel, could you describe what's shown in this

16 illustration on the screen in front of you, please?

17 A. We can see on this illustration that -- the place of launching or

18 the place of deployment of the launcher is. We can see the trajectory of

19 the projectile, the point where the fragmentation charge is opened up and

20 the fall of the bomblets. In the end, there is an ellipsis affected by

21 the pellets. That area and the ellipsis shown, according to the

22 references I used, amounts to some two hectares. That is the area where

23 the 288 bomblets fall from each fragmentation charge of the warhead.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. BLACK: Could this document be given an exhibit number and

Page 5070

1 admitted into evidence, please, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

3 please be given an exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The Exhibit will be 771.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Black.

6 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. If we could see the next document which is actually a group of

8 photos bearing the earned 06004077, please.

9 Lieutenant Colonel, could you please tell us what's shown on these

10 photographs on the screen.

11 A. The three photographs on the screen show a bomblet from the

12 fragmentation warhead of the Orkan.

13 Q. And is this the kind of bomblet that you've just been describing?

14 A. Yes. Those are the bomblets I had previously described. We see

15 the body of the bomblets, and we can see -- we can make out the pellets.

16 We see two bands used to stabilise the flight and to arm the fuse.

17 Q. Perhaps with the assistance of the usher I'd like to ask you to

18 mark on this photograph the things that you've just mentioned. First,

19 Lieutenant Colonel, if you could just draw an arrow to one of the textile

20 bands that you mentioned that stabilises the flight. Draw an arrow to

21 those and put a number 1 next to it, please.

22 A. This is the band.

23 Q. Thank you. And you also mentioned that you can see the pellets.

24 Could you draw an arrow to one of places where you can see the pellets and

25 put a number 2 next to that, please.

Page 5071

1 A. Marks.

2 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, can we please tender this marked version

3 of the photographs.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we do what?

5 MR. BLACK: Tender this marked version into evidence, please.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The marked version of that photograph is tendered

7 into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number. Can I just ask

8 a question, Mr. Black. That number 2, you asked the witness to show us

9 the pellets, and the witness points to a single rounded cylinder object.

10 I'm not seeing pellets, I'm seeing one object.

11 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I think it will become clear in just a

12 moment. The following exhibit, I hope, will make that clear, and if not,

13 I'll return to this.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 772.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I'd forgotten about that.

17 MR. BLACK: Actually, I notice that the witness has made some

18 additional markings to try and clarify this. If we could perhaps sorry to

19 save this and make it the following exhibit, perhaps. Thank you very

20 much. Could that receive the next exhibit number, please, Your Honour?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The next picture is admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 773, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

25 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. And just for the record I

Page 5072

1 guess I should say the witness drew another arrow to the pellets and again

2 put the number 2 next to it.

3 At this point if I could show the witness 65 ter number 13, which

4 is actually -- it's not a document. It's one of the deactivated bomblets

5 from the Orkan. It's been deactivated, Your Honours. There's no danger.

6 Perhaps, actually -- maybe we should show this briefly to Defence counsel.

7 I don't know if they've had a chance to examine this.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] There is no need. Thank you.

9 No need, Your Honour.

10 MR. BLACK: Thank you.

11 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, what is it that you have in your hands

12 now?

13 A. I have a bomblet in my hand coming from the fragmentation or a

14 cluster charge of the Orkan warhead.

15 Q. And can you -- can you show us the textile band that you referred

16 to and give us an idea of how that operates, please?

17 A. The bomblet drops approximately in this position as I am holding

18 it now. This band stabilises the bomblet to keep it from swerving left

19 and right. It makes it possible for the bomblet to drop in a

20 straightforward manner to the ground. At the same time, it arms the fuse

21 of the bomblet, making it possible for the bomblet to explode upon

22 impacting the ground. When that explosion occurs, the pellets are

23 released. We can see them here. There's also a cone affecting the object

24 in the way of the bomblet. As I said, it is able to pierce a steel

25 surface up to 60 millimetres thick. When it explodes, the pellets we can

Page 5073

1 see here impact personnel. I have in mind the soldiers. And a successful

2 impact of such a bomblet would cover approximately 10 metres.

3 Q. Thank you very much, Lieutenant Colonel. If we could perhaps hand

4 the bomblet up to the Bench.

5 MR. BLACK: I think Your Honours could then see quite easily the

6 pellets and understand a little bit about how the bomblet is put together.

7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I think we don't really understand this function

8 of the pellets. Can you explain to us --


10 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, could you --

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- where are the pellets and how would they

12 explode, in which direction, how they will be released and so on.


14 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, in response to Judge Hoepfel's question,

15 could you give us an explanation about how the pellets on the bomblet --

16 how they're released and how they have an impact on personnel?

17 A. This is an unexploded bomblet. References mention that around 10

18 per cent of bomblets go unexploded. This was such an example. As you

19 can see the very bomblet, there is a cylinder in which you can see the

20 pellets. When the explosion occurs, meaning when the bomblet impacts on

21 a surface, this is an explosion dispersing the pellets all around on a

22 more or less horizontal plane. And those pellets are used against

23 personnel, against soldiers.

24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm sorry, we're not seeing the pellets. Where

25 are the pellets, or are you saying generally the pellets would be

Page 5074

1 contained in this part? This is one that has been used already. Or is it

2 an unused one? We're not really -- I am not seeing the pellets that you

3 keep speaking about, as you can see.

4 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I don't know if it's a vocabulary

5 problem, but maybe I can ask the once one question quickly.

6 Lieutenant Colonel Poje, we've been using the word pellets in

7 English. Does that refer essentially to very small metal balls? Is that

8 what you're referring to?

9 A. Yes, these are small balls, and we can see that given their size

10 their dispersion and the area they cover is relatively small, covering an

11 area of around 10 metres.

12 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. I think I understand the principle.

13 Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I'm slow on the uptake.

15 MR. BLACK: Not at all, Your Honour. I want this to be clear.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see little small ball held onto the cylinder by

17 some plastic tape. Are those what we refer -- and there are three of them

18 that I see, or four -- yes, three that I see. Is that what you mean by

19 pellets, or also on the body of the cylinder I see lots of dots right

20 around it, the circumference of the cylinder. Are those the pellets that

21 then explode and scatter around?

22 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, perhaps if it could be passed back to the

23 witness for him to answer your question. By way of explanation. This was

24 used as an exhibit in the Rule 61 proceedings in this case back in 1996, I

25 believe, and that's why three of the pellets are essentially taped onto

Page 5075

1 the bomblet. That's something that was done by way of explanation in

2 those proceedings, I believe. But hopefully --

3 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, can you answer the Judge's question,

4 please?

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Bearing in mind we know nothing about military.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The pellets on the outside, the

7 little balls taped, are used by way of illustration to show what those

8 balls really look like. Such balls or pellets are inside the cylinder

9 originally. When the bomblets impacts, there is an explosion, and those

10 pellets inside the cylinder fly all around impacting personnel immediately

11 close to the bomblets covering the area of about 10 metres. Those pellets

12 are inside the body of the cylinder, and if we were to count them, we

13 would be supposed to come up with a total of 240.

14 At the same time, there is the cluster cylinder at the end of it

15 which pierces armour as opposed to the pellets that affect personnel.

16 I hope I was clear enough, because I don't know any other way to

17 explain it. I tried to be as simple as I could.

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I ask you additionally, first, you mentioned

19 the number 240. Is that -- should that be 420 exactly, because first

20 you -- yes.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me clarify. In the report there

22 is the figure of 240, but I mixed up the digits. We can verify that

23 against the firing tables to see what the actual number is. I believe the

24 exact number is -- and the correct number is 420 pellets.

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. This is the number you used before also.

Page 5076

1 And the surface of the cylinder which shows these several points is not

2 consisting of the pellets. The pellets would be inside the cylinder; is

3 that right?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are the pellets, those you can

5 see, inside the cylinder. The pellets or the balls are inside the

6 cylinder.

7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.


9 Mr. Black.

10 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. One last question on this, Lieutenant Colonel Poje, before you put

12 it down. Are the small balls or are the pellets covered by a transparent

13 coating on this example, this unexploded bomblet?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So what -- what looks like points underneath that plastic are

16 actually more examples of the metal balls. Is that a correct

17 understanding?

18 A. Yes. That is correct.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Unless the Trial Chamber has further

20 questions, I would ask that this be made an exhibit, please.

21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Well, Mr. Black, this is what my question was

22 about, what you just discussed now. It seems to me that it wouldn't then

23 be a very exact description to say the pellets will be inside the

24 cylinder. So it would be more appropriate to say they are around the

25 cylinder or -- and then how would they be fixed on the outside of the

Page 5077

1 cylinder if not -- or is this plastic band, is that the usual thing and

2 the tape holding these three extra pellets is now put after that

3 additionally on the thing? Yes? Is that right? Can we say that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These three were taped on, but the

5 pellets are actually welded onto the bomblet.

6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. Please go on.

7 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm trying to get the part of the transcript where

9 my question lies. Without finding it, let me see if I can remember what

10 the witness said. The witness said that these are pellets that injure

11 personnel, and then I think I understood him to say there is also a --

12 just a cylinder at the end which pierces armoured vehicles or steel. Is

13 it at the end of the open-ended side of the cylinder, and is that portion

14 of the bomblet on this exhibit or is it not there?

15 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, could you please explain how a projectile

17 like this can pierce armour? How does that work?

18 A. In this bomblet we have an explosive charge, usually trotyl. The

19 shape of the charge is the shape of a funnel, is in the shape of a funnel.

20 When an explosion takes place, on impact, when the bomblet impacts the

21 obstacle, the explosive charge is activated, and due to the shape of the

22 charge a cumulative beam or spray is created with its focus on the

23 obstacle and target itself. The force of this cumulative beam or spray is

24 so great because it is concentrated, because it is the shape of a funnel.

25 It is so concentrated the point of concentration at the obstacle that

Page 5078

1 enables the beam to pierce the armour or steel up to 60 millimetres. That

2 means -- well, it's quite simple. Let me demonstrate this.

3 When this bomblet touches the obstacle an explosion takes place.

4 The little pellets disperse in a circle all around and, for the most part,

5 affect personnel, the live force, although their lethal power is not

6 strong, but the cumulative beam that is created pierces the armour,

7 pierces a steel sheet, for example.

8 If you look inside, you'll see the shape that this has. And

9 because of that shape, on the surface of the obstacle it is a point of

10 contact which we call the focus, which is where the entire force of the

11 explosive charge is concentrated into that one point, and that force

12 enables piercing to take place, the piercing of the armour, steel, or what

13 have you.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I'm satisfied.

15 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. Could this now be made an

16 exhibit and given a number, please.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The bomblet, am I right? Is that called a bomblet?

18 MR. BLACK: That's right, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The bomblet is admitted into evidence. May it

20 please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That will be Exhibit 774.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

23 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honours. And if we could see one more

24 document at this point. It's 65 ter number 2276. And if this could be

25 brought on e-court and shown page 5 to begin with, please.

Page 5079

1 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, what does this document purport to be

2 based on this page that you see before you now?

3 A. This document contains parts of the Orkan rocket which were found

4 in Zagreb. That is to say it contains photographs of parts of the rocket.

5 Q. And if I could just show you a couple of particular pages, the

6 first one I believe is identified by ERN in e-court and so it's 00312114.

7 If we could see that page, please.

8 Lieutenant Colonel Poje, what's shown in these two photographs?

9 A. These two photographs show parts of the rocket. On the upper

10 picture, number 1, you can even see the markings of the rocket, the

11 specifications. It is 262-millimetre M87, which tells you that that is

12 the rocket in question. So they are data about the rocket.

13 The second photograph, number 2, is once again a portion, a part

14 of the rocket itself.

15 Q. Thank you. If we could move two pages ahead, please, to

16 00312116.

17 Lieutenant Colonel Poje, it's somewhat small, but could you tell

18 if these are photographs of the type of bomb that we've just looked at?

19 A. Yes. Those are the bomblets that we held in our hands a moment

20 ago.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Could this --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just understand. These are pictures of

23 exhibits found on the ground in Zagreb? Is that what the witness said.

24 MR. BLACK: That's what the document says, Your Honour. I don't

25 know whether this witness has any knowledge about that, but perhaps a

Page 5080

1 subsequent witness will.

2 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Sorry, is it of the type or the actual bomblets

3 themselves that fell?

4 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I don't know. I don't believe this

5 witness can respond to that question.


7 MR. BLACK: Could this document be made an exhibit, please, and

8 receive a number.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: This one has on the screen?

10 MR. BLACK: Yes.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: What about the previous ones.

12 MR. BLACK: They're just different pages of the same document.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. Thank you very much. The document is

14 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 775, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, I won't spend much time on the remaining

19 two components, the M87 Orkan which you describe in your report, namely

20 the firing -- fire control system and the transport reloading vehicle,

21 but just very briefly can the M87 Orkan weapon system take into account

22 meteorological conditions at the time that its fired?

23 A. In order to determine the initial firing elements, the Orkan

24 system has a separate computer by which that is possible. The initial

25 elements for firing are determined, in principle, with the help of a

Page 5081

1 computer that the Orkan system has, on the basis of coordinates of the

2 fire positions and targets. Secondly, on the basis of exact ballistic

3 conditions of firing. And thirdly, on the basis of exact meteorological

4 data and information.

5 The coordinates of the fire positions and the target positions are

6 determined in one of the ways of topographic, geographical preparation

7 charts. Ballistic data is collected on the fire position by measurement

8 but also from documentation. Meteorological information, in principle, is

9 received from the meteorological station as a weather bulletin or

10 meteorological bulletin.

11 All this data and information are entered into the computer of the

12 Orkan system, and according to an algorithm, a special algorithm, it is

13 able to calculate the initial elements, the input elements. The azimuth,

14 the range, the elevation, the timing of the fuse, all that is calculated,

15 and those are the basic elements that are then adjusted on the artillery

16 piece or rocket, and it is with this basic information that you launch

17 your rocket at the target selected.

18 Q. Thank you. Just a couple more questions about this section of

19 your report. At the end of the section you provide a table of tactical

20 and technical characteristics of the M87 Orkan. Are the -- are the

21 figures given in this table, are they precise figures, are they

22 approximations, or are they a combination of both?

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: At what page are we.

24 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, it's page 46 of the English version. And

25 page 55 of the B/C/S version, I believe.

Page 5082

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the end of that description for

2 the Orkan technical characteristics or, rather, the tactical technical

3 characteristics for Orkan shown in the table on page 46 are ones that are

4 approximate, mean ones. And we have other documents which show us the

5 exact figures. These are figures of principle.

6 So in this table or chart we see that the range, for example, is 5

7 to 50 kilometres. In the firing tables and charts, we can see that the

8 maximum distance is greater than 50 kilometres. So it doesn't tell us

9 exactly how big the distance is, but it says 50 -- about 50 kilometres.

10 The numerical tables give us a maximum range, recorded range, of

11 51.093 metres. So that table just gives us the principles and average

12 figures for the Arkan system. Although some of the figures there are 100

13 per cent correct, others might not be 100 per cent correct.


15 Q. Let me ask you specifically about the figures for dispersion and

16 range and dispersion in line for the maximum range. Are those precise

17 values or approximate values?

18 A. Those values, the figures mentioned here as dispersion in range

19 for the maximum range, for example, or dispersion in line for the maximum

20 range, Vd and Vp are -- the abbreviations are given -- approximate values

21 are given in that table, and they allow us at a glance to see what the

22 dispersion will be, whereas exact data for every range and distance is

23 found in the firing table. You can read them in the firing table.

24 So this table just provides you with global figures and the

25 principle, not precision for a specific range, because the only of this

Page 5083

1 table is not to provide exact and precise figures for the Vd and Vp or

2 dispersion in range and dispersion in line, but in principle what those

3 figures should be.

4 Now, if you're interested in what this would be, for example,

5 47.200 metres, then you would take up your firing table, look at columns

6 11 and 12, and would you able to read the values used there, the

7 dispersion figures based on individual Vd and Vp ellipses of dispersion.

8 Q. Just one more question and then we'll have to it take our usual

9 break. When doing the calculations in your report, did you use the values

10 at this table here at the end of 3.8.1 or did you use the values from the

11 firing tables that you've just discussed?

12 A. All the calculations that I used in order to give you a picture of

13 the dispersion I used firing tables to do that. So not this table here.

14 Not the tactical technical characteristics table, but the firing table

15 figures. Except for column 1, which gives you the distance, the range --

16 or, rather, the distance and range were used, and then columns 11 and 12

17 which show you the individual ellipses for the Vd and Vp values or

18 dispersion in range for the maximum range and the dispersion in line for

19 the maximum range.

20 Q. When we come back from the break we'll get into that detail?

21 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I think this is a convenient time for me.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Black.

23 We're going to take a short break the we'll come back at quarter

24 to eleven. Court adjourned.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.

Page 5084

1 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black.

3 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, I'm going to turn now to a new section --

5 a different section of your report. It's section 6.2. And that appears

6 on page 64 of the English and I believe page 76 in the B/C/S, or perhaps

7 75. And my first question for you is: What is impact dispersion? What

8 does that mean?

9 A. Impact dispersion belongs to the group of accidental errors. If

10 we fire two projectiles under roughly the same conditions, or we think

11 they are roughly the same conditions, those two same projectiles do not

12 follow the same trajectory. They follow two different trajectories, which

13 means that we're going to get two hits.

14 Now, due to the different conditions, when the projectiles are

15 fired all the projectiles will have their own paths, their own

16 trajectories, and that means what we mean when we say impact dispersion.

17 Q. And how is the impact dispersion of a particular artillery weapon

18 fired at a particular distance, how is that determined or calculated?

19 A. As I've already said, because of the different firing conditions

20 there is dispersion that occurs. Now, if we take the centre of the

21 dispersion pattern, in theory dispersion is an endless circle, but the

22 dispersion image is actually smaller. It is not infinite, and it is

23 plus/minus 4 Vd, and plus/minus Vd -- Vp. Dispersion in range line for

24 the maximum range a dispersion in line for the maximum range [as

25 interpreted]. And these are semi-axes of dispersion.

Page 5085

1 Q. Let me ask a just a number of questions?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


4 Q. Let me ask you just a couple of questions. You mention a formula

5 which also appears in your report. It's on page 65 in English. On what

6 theory is this formula based? How is this formula derived?

7 A. If we fire a large quantity of projectiles from a barrel, we will

8 have a beam of trajectories. If that beam of trajectories is cut across

9 with a vertical plane, we get a dispersion pattern which is in the shape

10 of an ellipsis. It's elliptic. Now, the end points on a horizontal plane

11 of that ellipsis we will get the pattern of impact, which is also an

12 ellipse. This elliptical dispersion moves within the ranges from the mean

13 target left and right, plus/minus 4, deviation plus/minus Vd, and

14 plus/minus 4 Vp. And plus/minus range and distance Vd and Vp. That is

15 the ellipse in which we say all the projectiles fired from the barrel will

16 fall, within that range.

17 Q. Let me interrupt you just right there. Before I ask you to go

18 through the specifics and show us these calculations, this formula and the

19 ellipse that you've just described, is that -- is that based on

20 mathematics? Is that based on an experiment? What is the basis of that?

21 How do you arrive at this formula that you've described?

22 A. The pattern of dispersion can be arrived at analytically with the

23 help of a ballistic model or on the basis of firing experiments. Today,

24 the analytical, practical way is used of arriving at the pattern of

25 dispersion. The size of the dispersion with respect to direction and

Page 5086

1 distance are Vd and Vp, and that is found in the firing tables. So you

2 can read your firing tables and revert to the firing tables wherever you

3 need them. And on the basis of those amounts and figures, we are able to

4 determine the overall pattern of dispersion.

5 The firing tables contain semi-axes, that is to say Vp and Vd for

6 dispersion patterns. In order to obtain the overall pattern of dispersion

7 and on the basis of probability and Gauss's law, the overall pattern of

8 dispersion is composed of or is plus/minus 4 Vp times plus/minus 4 Vd,

9 which means that the axes of the dispersion pattern are equal to 8 Vp

10 times 8 Vd.

11 Q. Okay. Thank you for that explanation. I'm going to get to that

12 in just a moment. Let me ask you one more question about what you said.

13 You talked about firing tables. Do firing tables exist for all artillery

14 weapons? It's not necessary that you get anything out. I think I'll be

15 able to show you what you need.

16 A. Every artillery piece has its own firing table or tables, and

17 every weapon has its own characteristics. So the firing tables for a

18 105-millimetre howitzer will not correspond to the conditions of firing

19 for a 155 howitzer. So you have separate firing tables for each

20 individual weapon or artillery piece.

21 Q. I'd like to show you on the screen, with the assistant of the

22 court officer and the usher, 65 ter Exhibit number 2275. If we could

23 bring that up, please. And I think the first page we need to look at is

24 page 19 in e-court.

25 Lieutenant Colonel Poje, what is this document that we're seeing

Page 5087

1 now on the screen?

2 A. The document that is on the screen is the first page of the firing

3 table for multiple rocket systems, 262-millimetre M87 Orkan.

4 Q. And are these in fact the firing tables that you used in preparing

5 your report?

6 A. Yes. Those are the firing tables that I used to calculate the

7 dispersion pattern.

8 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, we may make reference to this, these

9 tables, again, but at this point could I ask they be admitted into

10 evidence and given a number, please.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the tables be given an exhibit number. They

12 are admitted into evidence.

13 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 776, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, on page 64 of your report and on page 76 in

17 B/C/S is it correct that you reproduce certain portions of this firing

18 table? Is that correct?

19 A. Yes. The two tables that I show include data from the firing

20 table. The upper one for the 155 howitzer and lower down for the Orkan,

21 for distances of 1620, 2530, ranging up to 50 kilometres in the first

22 column, and in the second column we have the Vp values or figures and

23 deviations, and the third column shows the Vd figures.

24 Q. What does Vp stand for?

25 A. Vp stands for probable deviation of hits of dispersion in line,

Page 5088

1 whereas Vd is range, dispersion in range and the probable deviations. So

2 Vp and Vd and the inclination.

3 Q. Just so we're clear about the terminology that's used, when you

4 talk about dispersion in line, is that essentially how far to the left or

5 to the right of the intended target the impact may actually fall? Is that

6 what Vp stands for?

7 A. Let us assume that the mean target hits the target in the centre,

8 the mean projectile hits the target in the centre. Impact is possible in

9 line left or right for 4 Vp, left and right from the centre of impact, the

10 mean impact point.

11 Q. And for Vd, am I -- do I understand that correctly that that's how

12 far too long or too short the impact might be? Is that right?

13 A. Once again, bearing in mine the mean impact point and from the

14 mean impact the point the following is possible: Plus 4 Vd and minus 4

15 Vd.

16 Q. I just want to understand Vd in normal language. What do you mean

17 by dispersion in distance? Am I right to say that means the rocket could

18 go too short or too long, or does it mean something else? That's what I

19 want to understand.

20 A. Once again, we have the mean impact point. From that mean impact

21 point the next projectile or following projectiles can fall from that mean

22 impact point further, 4 Vd further. They can overshoot by 4 Vd, or, and

23 this is equal probability, they can undershoot up to 4 Vp.

24 Q. Thank you for that explanation. A bit further along in this same

25 section of your report you provide a table which gives various

Page 5089

1 percentages, various probabilities about the effective probability of

2 impact within the dispersion ellipse. Could you just please explain to us

3 what's depicted in that table?

4 This is on page 65 in English for Your Honours.

5 A. The dispersion of impact in the overall pattern impact is uneven.

6 If we go closer to the centre of the pattern of dispersion, we have a

7 greater probability of accuracy of the next impact. If we move towards

8 the edges, the possibility of accuracy decreases all the way up to

9 plus/minus 4 Vd or Vp. Beyond those boundaries, we say that there were no

10 hits because the probability of hitting the target beyond the boundaries

11 of the ellipse is insignificant, negligible. Therefore, we have the table

12 with the percentages. The percentages show the probability of hitting the

13 target in individual areas of the ellipse of dispersion. We discussed

14 dispersion by distance, and the SRP in the B/C/S or the mean impact

15 point --

16 Q. Let me interrupt you for a moment. I apologise for the

17 interruption, but there's perhaps a confusion with regard to language and

18 it may be translation. In the English it reads the probability of hitting

19 the target around this ellipse. Does probability show the probability of

20 an impact or of hitting the target, which I understand to mean the centre,

21 the thing that you aimed at. Can you just explain that so I'm clear on

22 it, please?

23 A. The table shows the probability of dispersion of hits are impact.

24 If we have several projectiles within the boundaries of plus/minus 4 Vd,

25 we will have all the impacts, but their degree of probability varies as

Page 5090

1 opposed to the target. Therefore, we have greater probability of hitting

2 the target towards the centre of the ellipse than we would have towards

3 the boundaries, the outer parts of the ellipse.

4 Q. I think I understand you except when you say "there is a greater

5 probability of hitting the target." What do you mean by that?

6 A. That the projectile will fall within the boundaries of plus or

7 minus 1 Vd. The percentage there is 50, meaning half of all the impacts

8 would be between the range of plus or minus 1 Vd. As to the 82 per cent

9 probability or chance, that is within plus or minus 2 Vd range. And we

10 can go as far as 4 Vd. Therefore, we would have all impacts within the

11 range of plus or minus 4 Vd.

12 Q. Thank you very much. And is the distribution of probability the

13 same for Vp as it is for Vd? The table shows Vd, but does the same apply

14 in principle to Vp?

15 A. Vd and Vp values differ, but the probability of impact is the

16 same. The probability is the same to have a both plus/plus in regard of

17 Vp and Vd and minus/minus. We could also have an impact on the left or on

18 the right. The actual figure of Vp and Vd differ. With multiple rocket

19 launchers, especially at the far end their range, Vp is always greater

20 than Vd.

21 Q. Let me ask you a question not with regard to the particular values

22 of Vp and Vd but with difference to this particular table that you've

23 provided where you've explained there's a 50 per cent probability that the

24 impact would be within plus or minus 1 Vd, is there also a 50 per cent

25 probability that the impact would be within plus or minus 1 Vp? Is that

Page 5091

1 the same in principle or is it different?

2 A. Both the dispersion by distance and by line obey the rules of the

3 same law, meaning that the probability is equal in both distance and line.

4 Q. Just one more specific question then before I ask you to do this

5 in a concrete contest, but just a more general question. The three

6 columns of the firing tables which you've reproduced, one can see that

7 both the Vp and Vd increase as you got to the bottom of the table. In

8 ordinary language, please explain what that means.

9 A. If we look at the table, we can conclude that as the distance

10 grows, we also have greater dispersion in both Vp and Vd. We can see that

11 at a 20 kilometre distance. Vp is 71 metres, which as Vd is 51. If we go

12 up to 40 kilometres, Vp is 173, and Vd is 159.

13 To me, it means that if we increase the range or the distance, we

14 also increase the dispersion pattern.

15 Q. Let me turn now to a concrete example or illustration of the

16 principles which you've been explaining. If you look at page 78 in your

17 version in B/C/S, and it starts at the bottom of page 65 in English and

18 passes immediately to page 66, Lieutenant Colonel Poje, you give the

19 example of an Orkan M87 fired from a distance of 40 kilometres from its

20 target, and you provide a table here showing the probability of impacts.

21 What I'd ask you to do is to walk us through that sort of step-by-step and

22 explain us what is shown here in the table. I'd also mention to you that

23 if you feel the need to draw or to show things, I do have scrap paper

24 here, blank paper, so just ask me if you feel like you need that to give

25 your explanations.

Page 5092

1 A. I used the example of dispersion at the distance of 40.000 metres.

2 Before me -- I have it before me, and perhaps it would be easier for me to

3 clarify using that than using the table from the actual report. The

4 principle is the same, but example I have is a textbook one explaining

5 things in more detail and with greater clarity.

6 Q. Please proceed then.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Shouldn't the witness be using the ELMO then?

8 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps I didn't understand.

9 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, just while we're setting up the ELMO,

10 are you going to show us a part of your report or is this something --

11 something else?

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: He's going to show us an example of shooting at 40

13 kilometres' distance.

14 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. But not -- not the calculations that exist in your report. Is

16 that all right, Lieutenant Colonel, but something separate?

17 A. No. That's the same calculation such as the one used in the

18 report, but this is just put in a different way.

19 Q. Okay. Please proceed.

20 A. In the report I cited an example of how to determine the

21 dispersion pattern for the distance of 40 kilometres. From the firing

22 tables referring to the distance of 40 kilometres, I took down the figures

23 for Vp and Vd, and Vp is 73 -- 173, excuse me, and Vd is 159 metres. I

24 will use this to explain the dispersion by distance only. I will only use

25 the Vd figure.

Page 5093

1 If we assume that the mean impact point is at the centre of the

2 coordinate system and that the pattern of dispersion by distance, as we've

3 said, in theory is plus/minus 4 Vd, this is plus 1, 2, 3 and 4, and minus

4 1, 2, 3 and 4 of Vd. We've already said that the Vd values for the

5 distance of 40.000 metres is -- the figure is 159 metres. That means the

6 distance between the mean impact point up to 1 Vd plus is 159 metres. And

7 if we go the other way, the distance between the mean impact point and

8 minus 1 Vd is also 159 metres. The probability of an impact within these

9 two boundaries of plus and minus 1 Vd is 50 per cent. 25 per cent in the

10 plus and 25 per cent in the minus.

11 The entire dispersion pattern by distance equals plus/minus 4 Vd,

12 which means that 4 Vd would be 4 times 159 metres, the total being of

13 that of 636 metres. The same goes for the minus part of the table.

14 Minus 4 Vd is also 636 metres.

15 Within that range or within those limits of plus 632 and minus

16 632, we can have an impact looking from the mean impact point. That means

17 that the axis of the distance dispersion equals 1.272 metres, that is

18 plus/minus 4 Vd. In total that is 8 Vd. The outer limits of the ellipse

19 for the dispersion are at 1.272 metres.

20 The same goes for dispersion by line or bearing, to the left or to

21 the right of plus/minus 4 Vp. Vp, the value is 173 metres by the

22 firing -- according to the firing tables. That means the half or

23 semi-axis of dispersion by line from the centre to its outer -- right

24 outer edge is 692 metres. If we go to the left, because the probabilities

25 are the same, is also 4 Vp or 692 metres. Which means that the axis of

Page 5094

1 the dispersion pattern by line or bearing is plus/minus 4 Vp, rather, 8 Vp

2 which equals 1.384 metres.

3 That means that the semi-axis of the dispersion pattern amount to

4 692 times 632 metres. We have to take into account the axis of dispersion

5 pattern, those being 1.384 times 1.272 metres.

6 We can use an ellipse to show that.

7 Q. Can I interrupt you for a moment? I'm sorry. I apologise for the

8 interruption, but just before we move away from that document, a couple

9 times a figure was at least translated as 632 metres, whereas what appears

10 on the document is 636 metres. Could you please just clarify which it is,

11 please. And it's on the previous document that you just discussed with

12 us. If that could be placed back on the ELMO, please.

13 A. It probably should have been 636 metres.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Please continue with your explanation.

15 A. Yes. Yes, 636 metres. That's the semi-axis of the dispersion

16 pattern.

17 We can also show the same dispersion pattern here as regards the

18 distance of 40 kilometres, the axis of the dispersion pattern by distance

19 and by line or bearing. The area of the ellipse is a bit less than 1.4

20 square kilometres.

21 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I'd ask that these documents each receive

22 an exhibit number and be admitted into evidence, please.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The two documents will be received in evidence and

24 could they be given an exhibit number, please.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 777.

Page 5095

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, will they be given one exhibit number or two

2 exhibit numbers.


4 JUDGE MOLOTO: One number.


6 Q. Thank you very much, Lieutenant Colonel. We will return to that

7 kind of calculation in just a moment, but in the meantime we can leave the

8 ELMO there because we can use it again in just a moment.

9 If we look at the very next section of your expert report, which

10 is section 6.2.2, you discuss impact dispersion in the specific context on

11 the attack on Zagreb on the 2nd and 3rd of May 1995. If you look at page

12 80 of your report which is page 67 in English, you make reference to a

13 document there which is trial exhibit number 94 in this case and on the

14 basis of that document you conclude: "That the firing position of the M87

15 Orkan SRL was in the sector, north of the village Slavsko Polje." And my

16 question is if I were to show you a map of the area do you think you would

17 be able to find Slavsko Polje on the map?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where did you read, Mr. Black.

19 MR. BLACK: It's the very first very sentence of 6.2.2.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I've seen it. Thanks.


22 Q. Lieutenant, Colonel do you think you'd be able to find Slavsko

23 Polje on a map if I were to show you a map?

24 A. I think so.

25 Q. I'd like to show the ERN 06002902. It's also in e-court but I

Page 5096

1 think because I'm going to ask the witness to make a measurement it's

2 easier if we work from hard copy. I would also note that this is page 20

3 of the atlas which is Exhibit 23 but it's been blown up for ease of use on

4 the ELMO. If I could hand this to the witness, please. Actually, if you

5 could put it on the ELMO that would be best.

6 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Do you have a grid reference, although it's

7 blown up?

8 MR. BLACK: Indeed, Your Honour. It's in the top part of grid

9 3B --

10 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you.

11 MR. BLACK: -- near the somewhat larger village of Vrgin Most or

12 town of Vrgin Most.

13 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, if you can find Slavko Polje and underline it,

14 please. Just underline the village name first.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Now, could you please put an X with a number 1 just north in the

17 approximate location where the Orkan M87 was fired on the 2nd and 3rd of

18 May, 1995? Just approximately.

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. And can you put a number 1 next to that X, please.

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. Now, if you look to the north, you'll see the greater city of

23 Zagreb there, and if you could please put a number 2 approximately on the

24 city of Zagreb.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 5097

1 Q. Now, I've brought along a ruler, want the assistance of the usher

2 I'll pass it to you. And I'd ask you just to draw a straight line

3 connecting those two Xs at point 1 and point 2.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, you'll see at the bottom of this map or

6 page there's a scale there, and in fact it's provided in two ways. If we

7 could -- if we could just show the bottom of the map on the ELMO, please.

8 Is it possible that we can rotate the view of the ELMO so that everyone

9 who is looking at the screen can see it right way up? Actually, I'll ask

10 the usher to just turn it and just show for a moment the bottom part of

11 the document there. I think it's fine. We can proceed this way for the

12 moment. That's a good solution.

13 You can see there at the bottom Lieutenant Colonel the scale is

14 presented in two ways, one of which is numerical, 1:500.000. We have and

15 enlarged the map. But there is a graphical scale in the form of a couple

16 of bars. Does that scale continue to apply even though this page has been

17 enlarged from the atlas?

18 A. Yes, the scale applies or, rather, the distance in centimetres,

19 because if we enlarge it, the ratio remains between the actual distance in

20 centimetres and the degree of enlargement. Therefore, we could use it,

21 yes.

22 Q. Okay. Well, then using the graphic representation of the scale

23 and the ruler that I provided you with, I'd like you to make an

24 approximate measurement of -- of the line that you drew between points 1

25 and 2.

Page 5098

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think that the ruler had overshot point 2 making

2 something like point 2 Vd beyond the point.


4 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, I don't know if you heard His Honour's point.

5 Yes. If you could re-measure to make sure it's precise.

6 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I note that the zero mark is not the very

7 end of the ruler. So that could be what you saw?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 49 kilometres.


11 Q. Could you please write that distance next to the line that you

12 drew there on the map. Just next to the line between 1 and 2, points 1

13 and 2.

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. Yes. I seen you've made a couple of marks before the 49, and

16 that's to show that that's an approximate measurement; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, an approximate value, measurement, an approximate

18 measurement, because we don't know the exact point from which the firing

19 took place or the exact point where the target was. We know where the

20 projectiles fell, but we haven't got the central point of impact.

21 Q. And in your report it --

22 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Black, before you go on, I have just

23 remarked that there's a variance in the spelling between the map grid B3

24 and what is in the report at 6.2.2. The report says the village of Savsko

25 Polje. I think the report is the one that is inaccurate. Could I just

Page 5099

1 confirm that.

2 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, is the correct name of the village

4 Slavsko Polje or Savsko Polje?

5 A. The correct name is Slavsko with an L, Slavsko Polje. There is a

6 mistake there.


8 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: You're welcome.

10 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, I would ask that this map as marked by

11 the witness be given a number and admitted into evidence, please.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The page of the map as marked by the witness is

13 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. It will be Exhibit 778, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

16 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, in your report, in that same section

18 6.2.2, you estimated that the distance was somewhere between 47 and 51

19 kilometres. Is that roughly consistent with the measurement which you've

20 just made here in court?

21 A. Yes, it is. If we -- well, when we know that we don't know the

22 exact coordinates and firing position, nor do we know the exact

23 coordinates of the target aimed at, all we know is on the basis of

24 documents the approximate place where the Orkan was sighted. We have

25 information about where the projectiles fell, and then we can see that the

Page 5100

1 distance or range is approximately 49, 50 kilometres.

2 Q. What I'd like you to do now is perform the same calculation of

3 impact dispersion that you did before but now using the value 49

4 kilometres. I'd like you to walk us through that process. And to begin,

5 if we could show again 65 ter number 2275, which has now been admitted

6 into evidence as Exhibit 776. If we could see that on the e-court,

7 please, and specifically page 98 of that document.

8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This is only in B/C/S, is? It.

9 MR. BLACK: Yes, I was just going to mention that, Your Honours.

10 There is to English translation because it's essentially tables of

11 figures, and therefore we did not translate it into English.

12 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, if you look at it page of firing tables

13 that we have before us, what values should we use for Vp and Vd to

14 calculate the dispersion range at an impact of 49 kilometres?

15 A. If we take the range of 49 kilometres, then in the first column we

16 find this range, 49.000 metres, if we go to columns 11 and 12. And at

17 49.000 metres we read the figures in column 11, Vd, and see that Vd at a

18 range of 49.000 metres or 49 kilometres will be 243 metres.

19 If we look at column 12, we can read the values of Vp, and that is

20 258 metres. 258 metres. So those are the basic parameters on the basis

21 of which we are able to calculate the semi-axis of the dispersion ellipse

22 and the semi-axis of the dispersion ellipse per range is 4 times Vd, 4

23 times 243.

24 Q. Witness -- for the usher --

25 A. Which is --

Page 5101

1 Q. I'm just going to interrupt you. I'd just like to pass you a

2 couple of pieces of blank paper and on the ELMO if you can walk us through

3 these calculation and show us what you're doing, please.

4 A. We said that the range, firing range, was 49.000 metres, or 49

5 kilometres. From the firing table, we look at the values of Vd and Vp.

6 Vd at that distance for that range was shown in column 11, and that was

7 243 metres. Then we go to column 12 to read the Vp figure, the Vp value,

8 which was 258 metres. So those are the basic parameters allowing us to

9 calculate the dispersion impact.

10 We said, and I'll draw this once again, this is the X and Y axis

11 of the dispersion image, the coordinates, with a mean impact point where

12 these two lines intersect, where the coordinates intersect.

13 Now, looking at range, the dispersion impact is plus 4 Vd, and on

14 the opposite side minus 4 Vd, which means that the semi-axis of the

15 impact -- dispersion impact will be 4 times Vd, equals 4 times 243 metres,

16 or that is equal to 972 metres. So this is it. 272 metres is this

17 portion here. And the same applies in the opposite direction. Minus 4

18 Vd, 972 metres that way. One way and the other way. That is the axis of

19 the ellipse of the dispersion impact in range, plus/minus Vd.

20 And the same applies for the line, dispersion in line, the Vp.

21 One, two, three, four sections, and one, two, three, four the other way.

22 4 Vp and minus 4 Vp. The semi-axis of the impact dispersion in line is

23 equal to 4 Vp, which is 4 times 258 metres, which is equal to 1.032

24 metres. So it is 1.032 metres. And in the other direction it is the same

25 figure. 1.032 metres in both directions.

Page 5102

1 That means that the axis of the dispersion patterns are the same.

2 In range it is 2 times 972 metres, and in line it is 2 times 1.032 metres,

3 which means that it is a very high dispersion pattern. This is 972 times

4 1.032 metres. And it is possible to calculate the surface of the ellipse.

5 This is what the ellipse would look like, roughly like this, roughly this

6 shape. A little deformed, because the ratio between range and line. But

7 it is an ellipse where the line dispersion is greater than the range

8 dispersion.

9 Q. Thank you for that explanation. Just a couple of questions to put

10 it into ordinary language. The ellipse that you've drawn, that

11 represent -- does that represent the area in which the probable impacts

12 will land? Is that correct?

13 A. Yes. It is the ellipse where the projectiles will fall, where the

14 impact will be.

15 Q. And when firing the M87 Orkan at a range of 49 kilometres, how

16 much to the let other to the right might the impact fall, to the left or

17 to the right of the centre point?

18 A. Let us assume that the rocket opened, that the cluster warhead

19 opened on the edge of the ellipse. And if we remember, we said that the

20 surface of dispersion, according to a cluster warhead, when the cluster

21 warhead opens up we said that the bomblets fall on a surface area of two

22 hectares. That means that we can expect the projectiles to fall outside

23 the area of the ellipse, outside the dispersion ellipse, the dark area.

24 It might overshoot this dark area. This is the area in which we might

25 expect the bomblets to drop.

Page 5103

1 Q. I think I understand, but I'm not sure you answered my question.

2 Maybe you've gotten just ahead of me. My question is a simple one and I

3 apologise if it sounds obvious but I want to understand these numbers in

4 more ordinary language.

5 Based on the calculations that you've done for us here, when

6 firing from a range of 49 kilometres, how much to the left or to the right

7 of the centre point might the rockets impact?

8 A. From the calculations, from the central point we can go left and

9 right by 1.032 metres. And in range, plus/minus from the central point of

10 impact 972 metres. That means we can hit this area to the right 1.032

11 metres, and to the left 1.032 metres. And then range from the central

12 point of impact plus 972 metres or minus 972 metres. So within that

13 surface area is where all the projectiles will fall.

14 Q. Thank you very much. And the explanation you were giving when you

15 drew a circle on the perimeter of the ellipse, does that -- does that deal

16 with each particular bomblet of the 288 that are in each warhead? Is that

17 correct? Could you please explain that again since I interrupted you?

18 A. Let us assume that the cluster warheads opened along the edge of

19 the dispersion ellipse, which means the following: The surface area on

20 which the bomblets drop is two hectares. That means that it is still

21 possible that part of the bomblets fall outside this area. Bearing in

22 mind this dispersion pattern, it's a small portion, 100 metres. So some

23 of the bomblets can fall outside the circumference of that ellipse.

24 Q. Thank you for your explanation.

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, could this be given a number and

Page 5104

1 admitted into evidence now, please, this sketch paper where he's done this

2 calculation.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The sketch drawing is admitted into evidence. May

4 it please be given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 779, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


8 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, in principle could this same exercise,

9 these same calculations, be repeated for any, any distance, be it 47

10 kilometres, 49 and a half kilometres, any distance that you find for the

11 distance from which the rockets were launched on the 2nd and 3rd of May,

12 1995?

13 A. If we know the distance or range, then in the firing tables we can

14 read the values for Vd and Vp. And as we saw on the basis of the

15 calculations we did a moment ago, it is possible to calculate this for any

16 distance, any range at all. You can calculate the dispersion pattern for

17 any range or distance you like.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Now I'm going to move away from the specific

19 topic of impact dispersion. I'm going to ask you to look at section 5 of

20 your expert report which addresses the use of artillery in populated

21 areas.

22 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, this appears on page 60 in the English

23 version.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.


Page 5105

1 Q. Have you found that, Lieutenant Colonel?

2 A. Yes, I have.

3 Q. And is that on page 71? Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What kind of considerations determine whether or not and how you

6 might use artillery in a populated -- against a populated area? What

7 things must be taken into account?

8 A. In that respect, I tried to present the use of the artillery in

9 populated areas by using the rules of artillery firing which records how

10 artillery should be used in populated areas. A large number of factors

11 influence the use of artillery in a populated area, your choice. The size

12 of a town will be an influencing factor. And a town or city is a target

13 in which it is difficult to pinpoint various targets because there are

14 high-rise buildings, low buildings. Visibility differs. Visibility is

15 relatively pretty poor in a town or city. Then you have positions, firing

16 positions. There is a poor communication possibilities. That is why when

17 we think of an attack on a populated area indirect firing is usually used

18 to detect targets, because that is more effective and more precise. Any

19 form of direct fire is more precise, especially if it is done at great

20 distances.

21 Q. Let me stop you there and just ask you about -- a question about

22 that last answer. Which -- which is more precise, indirect fire or direct

23 fire?

24 A. At all times direct fire is more precise than indirect fire,

25 because with direct fire you can see the target and you can have a direct

Page 5106

1 effect on the firing itself because you can see the target. When you have

2 indirect fire, the target cannot be seen from the firing position, but you

3 use an auxiliary point to target. And the results of firing are viewed

4 from an observation point or are not observed at all.

5 So there's an essential difference between direct fire and

6 indirect fire. Direct fire from the position the weapon is located. You

7 can see the target and you can fire at the target and hit it. When you

8 have indirect fire you use your sights to target an auxiliary point, and

9 then you use observation points to look at the effects of your firing. Or

10 there can be no observation all.

11 Q. Which type of firing was at issue on the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1995?

12 Was that direct firing or indirect firing by the M87 Orkan?

13 A. On the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1995, indirect fire was used.

14 Q. When you were explaining before about artillery attacks around

15 populated areas, which is generally preferred, direct firing or indirect

16 firing?

17 A. If possible, when attacking a populated area direct firing is

18 resorted to.

19 Q. In the decision whether to use artillery against a populated area,

20 does the choice of weapon or the type of weapon affect the

21 decision-making? Is that a decision that should be taken into account?

22 A. When you're choosing your weapons and the type of firing you're

23 going to resort to, you must take care to select the weapons which under

24 given conditions has the least dispersion and is the most precise. That

25 means that when attacking a town, if possible you would use direct firing

Page 5107

1 and weapons that are adapted to direct firing, because more precise

2 weapons mean less -- mean less dispersion and less possibility of your

3 impact being outside the target being targeted.

4 Q. In section 5.2, it's the second paragraph there, page 61 in the

5 English version, you say that multiple-barrel rocket launchers in general

6 are "unsuitable for firing on targets in populated areas." Why is that

7 so?

8 A. Because there is high dispersion when using multiple-barrel rocket

9 launchers, not only Orkan but others two. And we saw with the two

10 examples just how high that dispersion is at a distance or range is at 49

11 kilometres or 49.000 metres, which means there is great probability that

12 many of the projectiles fall outside the designated target. And at least

13 once a year at the military academy I demonstrated firing from a

14 multiple-barrel rocket launcher for the cadets of the military academy as

15 an exercise, and I was able to see it. Not only looking at it from the

16 tables and the calculations, I showed them in practical terms that the

17 dispersion is extremely high. And that is why, because of this high

18 dispersion, you have a high probability of hitting targets outside your

19 principal target, and that is why it is not suited to populated areas.

20 And otherwise, when using a multiple-barrel rocket launcher, you must look

21 at the safety zone so that you don't inflict injuries on your own forces

22 precisely because of this high level dispersion.

23 So the main reason why you would not use a multiple-barrel rocket

24 launcher in populated areas is because of this high level of dispersion.

25 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, based on all the information you've given

Page 5108

1 us today and on your own military experience and your expertise in the

2 field of artillery, do you have an opinion regarding the appropriateness

3 of firing the Orkan M87 at Zagreb on the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1995?

4 A. I would put it this way: Even if there might have been military

5 targets within Zagreb and if their -- and if the intention was to target

6 them, I don't think that this should have been chosen, to act against

7 those targets. And I said this a moment ago. When making the decision

8 about using Orkan for the town of Zagreb, which is a populated area,

9 relatively densely populated area, at a time when life was going on

10 normally in Zagreb, one could have expected that even if you targeted a

11 military target you should not do so when that military target was in the

12 town and in this case the city of Zagreb.

13 Q. And just one question before we take another break. Perhaps this

14 is obvious, but I want you to make it clear. What was the risk? Why was

15 it inappropriate? What was the danger of firing the Orkan at the city

16 centre of Zagreb?

17 A. As I've already said, if the aim was a military target, hitting a

18 military target, because of the high dispersion that kind of targeting was

19 not suited, because according -- I was able to calculate, and everybody

20 else could have calculated the dispersion pattern and could have arrived

21 at the conclusion that the area where the rockets would fall would be a

22 large area with high possibilities of overshooting or undershooting the

23 military targets and hitting civilian facilities.

24 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, perhaps that's an appropriate time for

25 the break.

Page 5109

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Black. We'll take a

2 break, and we'll come back at half past twelve. Court adjourned.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Black.

6 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, I'd like to ask you now to turn to

8 section 6.1 of your report.

9 MR. BLACK: This begins, Your Honours, in the English version just

10 at the beginning -- at the bottom, excuse me, of page 61, and then really

11 on page 62.

12 Q. I think it's around page 73 of the B/C/S version, Lieutenant

13 Colonel. In this section of your report you refer to a number of

14 documents, and I'd like to show a few of those documents to you now. The

15 first one is 65 ter number 1887. If we could please see that on e-court.

16 Lieutenant Colonel, do you recognise this document?

17 A. Yes, I do. I made use of this document when compiling the report.

18 Q. And in fact, you reproduced parts of this document in your report;

19 is that correct?

20 A. Yes. The part of it pertaining to the multiple rocket launcher

21 Orkan. That's what I used in the report.

22 Q. If we could look at -- it's page 13 in e-court of the B/C/S

23 version, although the number at the top of the page will say page 12, and

24 it's page 13 in the English version. If we could pull that up, please.

25 Lieutenant Colonel Poje, if you look at page, in particular 5.8,

Page 5110

1 subsection 2. If you would scroll down, please. Is this -- you don't

2 need to read anything out loud, but is this part of the document what you

3 relied on in your report?

4 A. Yes, it is. This is what I basically copied into my report.

5 Q. And what does this tell us about the command and control of the

6 M87 Orkan?

7 A. This states that the Orkan stating here AG VBR was part of the

8 Main Staff.

9 Q. And just so it's clear, which armed forces? The General Staff of

10 which armed forces?

11 A. The General Staff of the Serb armed forces of the Krajina.

12 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this document receive a number and

13 be admitted into evidence, please.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

15 please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 780, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

18 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much.

19 Q. The next document is 65 ter number 1888. And if that could please

20 be brought up on the screen and in fact if we could move to page 11 in

21 e-court in the English. It's page 6 in B/C/S in e-court, although again I

22 note it has the number 4 at the top.

23 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, by way of explanation, some of these 65

24 ter exhibits appear to have some tables and things we've matched together.

25 That's why the page numbers don't always correspond?

Page 5111

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page in English we must go to page 6.

2 MR. BLACK: Page 11, Your Honour.

3 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, do you recognise this document, and if --

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Is this the document -- the next document that's referred to in

6 your report? Is that correct? And if we could scroll down the page in

7 B/C/S, please.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Keep going. Continue to section 4 and then subsection 2. That's

10 perfect. Thank you very much.

11 Again, Lieutenant Colonel, you don't need to read out any passages

12 from this, but if you would please explain what the document demonstrates

13 about the command and control of the Orkan.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, when you say section 4, subsection 2, what

15 are you referring to on that page 11?

16 MR. BLACK: Let me check my English version, Your Honour, so I can

17 make sure I'm pointing you to the correct page. Yes. I believe it's at

18 the very top of the page. Right, the section 4 doesn't show on page 11,

19 it's the first part at the top of page 11 in English.

20 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, what does this document show us about the

21 command and control of the Orkan?

22 A. This item states that the Orkan unit is part of the 7th mixed

23 artillery regiment and its use can only be approved by the commander of

24 the Main Staff of the SVK.

25 MR. BLACK: Could this document also be given a number and

Page 5112

1 admitted, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

3 please be given an exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 781, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Black.

6 MR. BLACK: The next I believe final document that we'll look at

7 is trial Exhibit 92. If that could be -- please be put on the screen, and

8 it will be the first page both in B/C/S and in English that we're

9 interested in.

10 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, do you recognise the document that's on

11 the screen now in front of you?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Can you read -- before we go down, is it -- can you read the date

14 of this document?

15 A. The 1st of May, 1995.

16 Q. Thank you. And if you look at paragraph 1. So if we can scroll

17 down a little bit, what does this document tell us about the command and

18 control of the M87 Orkan?

19 A. In item 1 of the order: "It is stated that the Orkan squad,

20 together with the military police squad, as well as the S-1 squad from the

21 7th Corps will be ready to act as I order." It literally

22 states "according to my order."

23 Q. And if we could scroll down the page, who issued this order?

24 A. The order was signed by Commander Lieutenant General Celeketic.

25 Q. And do you know what position General Celeketic had at this time

Page 5113

1 in May 1995?

2 A. I think he was Chief of Staff of the Main Staff of the SVK.

3 Q. Thank you very much, that's all we need with that document. It's

4 already in evidence, Your Honour, so we don't need to move it in again?

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


7 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, on the basis of these documents that

8 we've just looked at as well as your own military experience and your

9 expertise in the field of artillery, what conclusion did you reach about

10 who commanded and controlled the SVK M87 Orkans when they fired upon

11 Zagreb on the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1995?

12 A. In all the documents we've just mentioned, it is stated that the

13 Orkan squad can only be used on orders of the Main Staff.

14 Q. Do they -- do they refer to anyone in particular in the Main Staff

15 or just the Main Staff generally?

16 A. It is mentioned. And the use of the Orkan squad as well as the

17 tasks for the squad are to be issued by the commander of the Main Staff or

18 Colonel Djilas.

19 Q. Do you know what position Colonel Djilas had? If you don't know

20 that's fine, but just if you do know.

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Poje, you served in the military for more than

23 30 years. You've specialised in artillery issues, and I believe at one

24 point you testified you commanded some artillery formation. In your

25 opinion, would the people who ordered the use of the M87 Orkan on the 2nd

Page 5114

1 and 3rd of May, 1995, would they have been aware of the risk to civilians

2 which you discussed earlier?

3 A. We need to propose that perhaps not everyone is familiar with the

4 consequences of the use of the Orkan, and some of those people may have

5 been the people who decided to use it. And the people who made the

6 decision on the use may not have been familiar with its consequences, but

7 in any case, they should have informed themselves. Within the Main Staff

8 there must be a department or another body in possession of the necessary

9 expert knowledge as to advise them what would happen if they used the

10 Orkan against, say, Zagreb. One needn't know everything, but then you

11 have to inquire. You have to ask someone who does before you make the

12 final decision.

13 Q. And as a matter of ordinary military practice, do commanders in

14 fact inform themselves before they take this kind of decision?

15 A. In principle, yes. The commander is supposed to use certain

16 units, inter alia, the use of artillery units. Also, the commander must

17 be familiarised with the use of such weapons, save for such a situation in

18 which there is absolutely no time or under the circumstances which you

19 cannot possibly get that information from anyone. But I don't think that

20 applied.

21 Q. Thank you very much.

22 MR. BLACK: That completes my direct examination, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Black.

24 Mr. Milovancevic.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 5115

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Poje. My name is

3 Mr. Milovancevic, Defence counsel for the Accused Mr. Milan Martic, and we

4 are about to commence with your cross-examination. You have found in

5 similar situations -- you have found yourself in similar situations

6 before, but I still need to ask you to pause between question and answer.

7 This goes for both myself and you so that the interpreters could do their

8 work. Thank you.

9 From your particulars, I could see that you completed the military

10 academy in 1971, the academy of the land forces in Belgrade. Am I

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I can also see there between the -- 1971 and 1975 you commanded a

14 mortar battery. What was your rank at the time?

15 A. I was 2nd lieutenant or lieutenant. I don't remember exactly.

16 Q. Between 1975 and 1978, according to your report, it states that

17 you commanded an anti-armour battery of 105-millimetre calibre. What was

18 your rank then?

19 A. I believe by the time I left that duty I was holding the rank of

20 captain.

21 Q. As regards this anti-armour gun battery, what is it exactly?

22 A. It is a unit in which there are six anti-armour guns or cannons of

23 120-millimetre T12 guns.

24 Q. Between 1978 and 1980 -- 91, you state that you lectured at the

25 army school centre in Zadar. I believe it was a part of the JNA

Page 5116

1 educational system?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. There you taught the theory of firing and artillery firing rules

4 for a year at the school for reserve officers and two years to the cadets

5 of the military academy as well as two years for the commanders of

6 artillery battalion. What was your rank at the end of that period?

7 A. I had taught for ten years at the academy and two years at the

8 course for the commanders of artillery battalions, and when I left I held

9 the rank of lieutenant colonel.

10 Q. That of the JNA?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I can also see here that in 1984, you graduated from the Command

13 Staff Academy as an external 4th class student. It is an eminent military

14 school, and it is higher than the military academy that you had graduated

15 at previously.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you left the JNA in 1991, when you did that upon your own

18 request, you found employment with the military school centre, and you

19 taught military topography, artillery firing, topographic and geodesic

20 support for artillery units. And now you are the head of the centre for

21 educational work.

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. And you are still a lieutenant colonel. For how long?

24 A. Well, perhaps you should ask that to someone else.

25 Q. Am I correct in saying that you've been a lieutenant colonel ever

Page 5117

1 since 1991?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. In your long career as an artilleryman, you stated that at live

4 fire exercises and other exercises you fired around 15.000 projectiles.

5 According to the calibres I can see the greatest calibre you worked with

6 was one of 155 millimetres, which means you have not used the Orkan?

7 A. No, I have not.

8 Q. Do I interpret your answer correctly, that being that as regards

9 its practical use and the practical impact, you have no direct experience?

10 A. At my school centre we haven't used the Orkan a single time.

11 Q. Thank you, Colonel. According to your military education and the

12 degree you hold, you -- you specialised in artillery, and you were a

13 high-ranking officer. I wanted to ask you something about the artillery

14 itself, the types of artillery, types of usage. Therefore, we are now to

15 go into the topic that hasn't been touched upon by the Prosecutor.

16 In chapter 3 you talk about the technical aspects of artillery.

17 You talk about fire support, artillery fire support, and you state there

18 that it is the fire action of artillery against enemy forces for the

19 purpose of supporting one's own forces in combat. You also state that

20 such support includes direct and general fire support?

21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Milovancevic, could you please give us an

22 indication of the page you're at so we can be following when you

23 cross-examine.

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That

25 is at the beginning of the report. In the B/C/S, that is page 7, right

Page 5118

1 after "Background information". In the English that's page 6, after

2 chapter 3. We see chapter 3 --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: After chapter 2 there

4 is chapter 3, technical aspects of artillery fire supports. That's where

5 I was reading from.


7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. If artillery as a branch of the armed forces can support its own

9 forces in combat, be it directly or generally -- perhaps we should clarify

10 one thing first. The use of the Orkan, in your terms does this represent

11 the support to one's own forces, to the forces of the SVK?

12 A. Probably so, yes.

13 Q. Therefore, the answer was yes. Thank you. When explaining the

14 impact of the use of artillery and when you say that it can include direct

15 artillery fire support, you state that that fire support is the fire

16 action of establishment of artillery, as opposed to general fire support.

17 General fire support provides support which has a general effect on the

18 activity of the supported unit.

19 This usage of the Orkan, could that fall under the general

20 artillery fire support?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Therefore, am I correct in saying that such support had a general

23 effect on the activity of the armed forces of the SVK?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Since we're talking about the type of fire support and

Page 5119

1 the use of artillery, we also mentioned the use of the rocket system the

2 Orkan, and in item 3.1, in the last sentence you say that certain rockets

3 group comprise or can be included in the support. There you specify

4 battalions, artillery battalions, and the use of multiple rocket

5 launchers.

6 Does that mean that the Orkan as a multiple rocket launcher is

7 part of such general artillery fire support units?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. As regards the topic we've covered so far, it seems logical for me

10 to ask, and you've touched upon it in your report, about the

11 classification of artillery, and there you state that it is a branch of

12 the army with great firepower.

13 On the next page, in chapter 3.2, you state that according to the

14 ballistic characteristics artillery can be divided into classical

15 artillery and rocket artillery, or conventional artillery and rocket

16 artillery. That is on the next page.

17 As regards this distinction, is it correct that guns, howitzers,

18 and gun-howitzers as well as mortars comprise this conventional artillery,

19 whereas multiple rocket launcher fall within the category of the so-called

20 rocket artillery? Is that correct?

21 A. Yes. I've stated that.

22 Q. When you move on to the calibre of artillery, meaning you also

23 provided the breakdown according to the calibre, you state that the

24 conventional artillery can be divided as small, medium, and large calibre

25 artillery. According to its range, artillery is divided into conventional

Page 5120

1 artillery and rocket artillery. Regarding that, I'm interested in one

2 piece of information pertaining to the range of the rocket artillery.

3 Multiple rocket launchers fall under the rocket artillery category, and

4 there you stayed they are divided into three groups, those of small,

5 medium, and long range. Which group does the Orkan belong to?

6 A. Realistically speaking, it would be within the category of fire

7 support of small range or short range, although it can reach up to 50

8 kilometres. It is somewhere in between short and medium-range artillery.

9 Q. To put this in a context, when you talk about the range of rocket

10 artillery you state that short-range artillery includes all multiple

11 rocket launchers of range up to 10, then medium up to 20 -- up to 200,

12 and long range above 200.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speakers please not overlap and pause

14 between question and answer. Thank you.

15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Slower. And I think the numbers are differing

16 from the numbers in the expert report where it says short-range up to 50

17 kilometres, mid-range between 50 and 200, and long-range over 200

18 kilometres.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Poje, it seems I have explained you, but I am the one

21 violating the speed.

22 Thank you, Your Honour, for your reminder.

23 So as to clear -- clear up the transcript, short-range multiple

24 rocket launchers can reached up to 50 kilometres?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5121

1 Q. Multiple rocket launchers of medium range can reach between 50 and

2 200 kilometres; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And the third group is that of long range, over 200 kilometres?

5 A. Yes. If I may, this does not only include multiple rocket

6 launchers but rockets in general, including ground-to-ground rockets as

7 well as other types of rockets including multiple rocket launchers and

8 their ammunition.

9 Q. Now, in that same chapter, 3.2, where you speak about the

10 classification of artillery, underneath what we've just said about range

11 and rocket support there's something that is referred to as conventional

12 artillery, and you distinguish between guns, howitzers, and gun-howitzers.

13 That is conventional artillery and you differentiate that between that

14 and the rocket artillery. And when you refer to rocket artillery, you

15 mean the multiple-barrel rocket launcher called Orkan. That belongs to

16 rocket artillery, does it?

17 A. Yes I looked at anti-armour missile launchers and the

18 multiple-barrel rocket types, and the ground to ground systems I did not

19 deal with specifically here.

20 Q. Now, in the last paragraph before we come to the next point 3.3

21 definitions and types of artillery firing, when you say multiple rocket

22 launchers are weapons with -- launched from barrels, you differentiate

23 between two types of multiple rocket launchers, do you not?

24 A. Yes. That's what the literature describes as well. The rocket

25 launchers and the rail launched multiple rocket launchers.

Page 5122

1 Q. Now, the tube-launched multiple rocket launchers, how many barrels

2 or tubes?

3 A. Twelve.

4 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, perhaps it would be interesting to look at

5 the following question: What is the -- why were multi-barrelled rocket

6 launchers devised as opposed to conventional artillery? How many rocket

7 launchers can replace classical or conventional guns, for example?

8 A. If we take a look at Orkan, the Orkan system, with 12 tubes, that

9 means that it replaces -- we're talking about one launcher, one 12-tube

10 or 12-barrelled launcher, a system like that can replace 12 conventional

11 weapons because it's 12 tubes, 12-barrelled, which means two batteries, in

12 fact.

13 Q. Do you mean to say that it's -- that it has the same effect as 12

14 guns of the same calibre?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Could the witness answer why the multi-barrelled

17 rocket launcher was designed? That was a question Defence counsel has

18 asked, but I don't believe it has been appropriately responded to.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation].

20 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, you've heard the question from

21 Judge Nosworthy. The question was why the multiple-barrel rocket launcher

22 was designed in the first place. Could we have a specific answer, and

23 tell us when it first came into existence, whether it is a new weapon,

24 whether the Orkan was the first weapon of that type, and why it was

25 designed and mid in the first place?

Page 5123

1 A. The multiple-barrelled rocket launchers were used for fire support

2 in the first place because they were highly effective and efficient. The

3 Yugoslav People's Army, before Orkan, had two types of multi- barrelled

4 rocket launchers. They were called Plamen and Oganj. They were

5 128-millimetres and they had 30 barrels or tubes.

6 Q. To have a complete answer to the question I asked you, I'll put it

7 this way: Am I right in saying that a multiple-barrel rocket launcher as

8 an artillery piece has the advantage over conventional weapons because one

9 piece enables effective, sudden, and strong fire, firepower, which is the

10 equivalent of one or more batteries of guns? So in that sense it has the

11 advantage, because there's only one vehicle, one truck that you need. And

12 otherwise, you would need several artillery units to obtain the same

13 effect. So is that why this multi-barrelled rocket launcher was designed?

14 A. Precisely so, because you have one system which can replace a

15 number of conventional pieces and weapons.

16 Q. Now, in view of the type of charge, the warheads, the explosives

17 it uses, does the multiple-barrel rocket launcher come under normal

18 artillery pieces? It's not nuclear, is it? It's normally the classical

19 type.

20 A. Well, it is conventional, classical artillery, if you compare it

21 to nuclear weapons. So it's not a nuclear weapon.

22 Q. Thank you. That's what I meant. It's conventional, a

23 conventional weapon?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you for that answer. Now let us look at section 3.3,

Page 5124

1 chapter 3.3, definitions and types of artillery firings. And as this

2 weapon comes under artillery weapons, you speak of two types of firings,

3 direct fire at a target visible and indirect fire at a target not visible.

4 So I'm interested, there's a third type of fire but I'm interested in the

5 first two, direct an indirect. Can you tell us what we mean by direct

6 fire?

7 A. I think I've already answered that question. Direct fire is fire

8 that is directed at a target visible from the location of the target

9 piece. The aiming is direct and the results of the firing are observed

10 from the firing position, the weapon location.

11 When you have indirect fire, the target which is not visible from

12 the location of the artillery piece and is not observed --

13 Q. Well, we've had a description of direct fire from you. Now, as a

14 method of firing, does it refer specifically to a gun? It is guns that

15 are used for direct fire as an artillery piece?

16 A. Yes, guns and howitzers as well.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, taking all this into account, in addition to

18 direct fire using conventional artillery pieces, guns, howitzers, mortars,

19 can we target indirectly as well? So can conventional weapons be used to

20 fire indirectly as well?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, indirect fire is used when the target is not visible, you

23 said, but when it has to be aimed at indirectly by means of an auxiliary

24 aim point and the results of the firing are observed from an observation

25 post or are not observed, and you said you can use a gun as well for

Page 5125

1 indirect firing.

2 Now, do you still stand by what you said that the

3 multiple-barrelled rocket launchers are artillery pieces which are

4 exclusively used for indirect fire?

5 A. Yes, indirect fire always.

6 Q. So is it true that multi-barrel rocket launchers do not fire

7 directly but because of their properties they target indirectly 59 long

8 range, long distances?

9 A. Yes, all multiple-barrelled rocket launchers, not only the Orkan

10 type. We have other ones whose range is under eight kilometres, but it is

11 all through indirect fire.

12 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant Colonel. And then in that same paragraph,

13 same chapter, you differentiate on page 12, that's 12 of the B/C/S, when

14 we come to the type of fire, you speak of the types of projectiles,

15 artillery projectiles, and the fuse-setting method, and you speak of

16 impact fire, ricochet fire, and delayed fire. Can you tell us what kind

17 of firing is applied with the Orkan?

18 A. The Orkan uses timed or delayed fire, because the explosion of

19 the warhead takes place before the projectile in its trajectory hits the

20 target or the point of impact.

21 Q. That brings us to a very interesting point now,

22 Lieutenant Colonel, and we mustn't get this mixed up. There mustn't be a

23 misunderstanding.

24 Specifically, the multiple-barrel Orkan rocket launcher we're

25 talking about now, the Orkan, it was designed in such a way as it can

Page 5126

1 impact with its whole mass?

2 A. Not in principle, because the explosion and the release of the

3 bomblets occurs during the trajectory before the missile impacts, before

4 it hits the target.

5 Q. May we have Exhibit 771 placed on the e-court, please. And before

6 the document appears, I'd just like to tell you that it's the schematic,

7 the diagram of the dispersion of the Orkan projectiles 800 to 1.000 metres

8 above ground. I'm sure you will remember that diagram. On the diagram we

9 can see a trajectory of a projectile, which at a certain height opens and

10 let's out the bomblets.

11 You spoke about the delayed fire on the fuse. You meant a delayed

12 fire at an altitude of 800 to 1.000 metres on that trajectory when that

13 happens?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. Now, to go back to the diagram. At the point where the warhead

16 opens up, one of the bomblets explodes?

17 A. No. Once the warhead opens up the bomblets dispersion and start

18 falling towards the target.

19 Q. So will you remind us, please, how many bomblets does this Orkan

20 weapon have?

21 A. 288 bomblets.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, on this diagram, the diagram we have on the

23 monitor, we see the rocket as it is firing, and the mechanism opens up the

24 warhead and these bomblets are released. And we have established that at

25 the point of dispersion the bomblets do not explode.

Page 5127

1 Now, my question in that regard is when do the bomblets actually

2 explode?

3 A. When the bomblets are falling, we say that they are stabilised

4 with the textile band. At the same time, those bands set off the fuse,

5 the bomblets fuse, and the bomblets explode at the point of contact, at

6 the point the bomblet makes contact with the obstacle.

7 Q. Now, in connection with that answer, my next question is the

8 following: The point we see captured on the diagram, is it the technical

9 point in the construction of this rocket which enables the bomblets, which

10 are supposed to act and have their effect, to disperse over a larger area?

11 Is that what it means?

12 A. Yes. The -- we timed the fuse, delayed the fire, and it --

13 depending on the range of firing at a target the cluster warhead opens up

14 and the bomblets drop down onto the target.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just follow the argument as you go along.

17 By bomblets, what do we refer to? Do we refer to those little

18 small balls that we saw around that exhibit, or do we mean the exhibit

19 itself? It's the whole exhibit?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you for asking

22 that. It's quite a very logical question, and that is the point I've

23 arrived at. So with your permission I'd like to ask my next questions,

24 and I think the witness will provide an answer to what you've just asked.

25 Could the witness please be shown Exhibit 774 again, please, and

Page 5128

1 it is the bomblet itself.

2 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, the reason I've asked them to bring that

3 bomblet to you is the following: What you see on our monitor, the

4 opening of the warhead and the dispersion, is that the point at which by

5 delayed fire these kind -- this kind of droplet false on the target?

6 A. When the warhead, cluster warhead opens, out of the warhead you

7 have 288 such bomblets, 288 of this kind of bomblet.

8 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant Colonel. So we're at an altitude of 800 to

9 1.000 metres and you have these 288 bomblets of this kind with the bands

10 that fall in principle vertically downwards towards the ground that's how

11 they're constructed is that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Is it also right that none of these droplets explode until it hits

14 the target only when it hits the target it explodes?

15 A. In principle the bomblets explode on impact with the target.

16 Q. Yes. I will have to slow down, Your Honour. I do apologise.

17 Please stop me, because of course the witness and I speak the same

18 language we understand each other, so we seem to run ahead of ourselves.

19 But as we're discussing bomblets --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You just asked me to stop you. May I stop you,

21 please.

22 Now, that bomblet explodes on impact. Is it at the time of that

23 explosion that the little marbles that injure people come out, or when do

24 they come out? Those little ones that are wrapped around the bomblet with

25 the plastic -- transparent plastic, cellophane.

Page 5129

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness seems

2 to be waiting for me to ask him a question, but you are asking the

3 question directly of the witness. That's what I understood. I don't have

4 to intervene. You are asking the witness.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. If you can --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have already said once today.

7 When the cluster warhead opens up, 288 bomblets start falling towards the

8 target. It is -- they are stabilised by this textile band. It stabilises

9 the bomblet so that it doesn't fly over a larger area. And this sets off

10 a fuse activating the bomblet once the bomblet impacts, hits the target,

11 hits an obstacle. When it impacts, hits the obstacle, because of the

12 explosive inside it, part of the explosive is spent to disperse the little

13 balls or pellets in a circle all around, and this affects live force or

14 humans.

15 It is not very effective. These little balls or pellets aren't

16 very effective. They're not too lethal. The gases created by the

17 explosion are focused into a point and pierce the obstacle, pierce the

18 target.

19 I hope that makes it clearer.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic. Thank you, Witness.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Poje, since the activation of the bomblet as being part of the

23 rocket initiated a series of questions, it seems important that we clarify

24 it all the way.

25 Did we, therefore, manage to establish that at the moment whether

Page 5130

1 at the elevation of 800 to 1.000 metres the casing of the rocket opens up,

2 the bomblets are freed and dispersed falling downwards to the ground; is

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. As regards the bomblet, you stated it had a fragmentation, a

6 shaped fragmentation charge.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And cumulative as well. You also stated that the band is used as

9 a stabiliser as well as arms the fuse. Is it correct that the bomblet

10 explodes upon impact when it hits the target, an obstacle?

11 A. Yes. It explodes at the moment it touches an obstacle.

12 Q. Could you remind us yet again how many bomblets there are in a

13 rocket?

14 A. A warhead there are 288 such bomblets.

15 Q. You stated that the band arms the fuse. Does that mean that the

16 288 bomblets has such a band stabilising it and arm the fuse?

17 A. All bomblets have such a band stabiliser.

18 Q. Is it possible that such a bomblet, and you will tell us how heavy

19 it is, is it possible for it to go off without a fuse?

20 A. No, not without a fuse.

21 Q. What creates the explosion once it impacts a surface?

22 A. The bomblet has a fuse. The fuse activates the initial charge

23 which in turn activates the explosive charge in the bomblet.

24 Q. Therefore, each bomblet has a fuse, and as regards the activation

25 of the bomblet, is the fuse an actual mechanism with a small explosive

Page 5131

1 charge, and when that goes off the entire charge is activated?

2 A. Yes. In the fuse there is the so-called initial powder charge,

3 which is very sensitive to movement or to impact. It goes off, and based

4 on that small explosion the larger explosion of the charge in the bomblet

5 occurs.

6 Q. Therefore, after the warhead has opened up at the elevation of

7 about 1.000 metres, the bomblets drop towards the target. They hit a

8 surface, the fuse goes off, and then each of the bomblets is activated.

9 A. Precisely so.

10 Q. If we've clarified this in sufficient detail, we may move on to

11 some other characteristic of the bomblet.

12 When you mentioned the types of charge for artillery projectiles,

13 you mentioned artillery projectiles which can be -- which can have

14 fragmentation characteristics, impact characteristics, and for this one

15 you stated that it had -- was of cumulative and fragmentation nature.

16 A. Yes, precisely.

17 Q. Does that mean that the rockets used to attack Zagreb had such

18 bomblets with both fragmentation and cumulative characteristics?

19 A. From all the references including the firing tables, the warhead,

20 the cluster warhead, is described mentioning two types of cluster

21 warheads. One is with fragmentation cumulative charge, being this one,

22 and other one with anti-armour explosive.

23 Q. We now described the type of warheads, but now let us go -- let us

24 go back to the topic itself. The bomblet that you have in your hand is

25 one of those which was dispersed at 800 to 1.000 metres. It falls down,

Page 5132

1 initiates contact with the surface and sets off the fuse initiating

2 activating the initial charge. You stated that the bomblet initiates a

3 funnel effect with a focus which can pierce armour?

4 A. Yes, that is correct. The explosive charge partly disperses the

5 pellets, partly concentrates the fumes created by the explosion to create

6 this funnel cumulative effect.

7 Q. Am I right to say that each of the bomblets has an internal powder

8 charge -- not powder but explosive charge, and you said that in principle

9 that explosive is trotyl?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Upon the activation of the fuse, the explosive explodes creating a

12 high field of pressure focusing on only one point, achieving a cumulative

13 effect. Is that also one of the things that happens during the explosion?

14 A. One way of the bomblet to explode is to have such a cumulative

15 characteristic, because it was designed in that way. All the gases

16 created and all the pressure created is focused in one point. It is not

17 the ideal point, but we try to achieve the focus by the design of the

18 bomblet itself and the material that is used in order to have the focus on

19 the surface or on the target itself.

20 Q. I would kindly ask interpreters to warn me yet again if I hurry

21 since we speak the same language.

22 I'm talking about the cumulative charge and the effect that

23 occurs when the bomb goes on. There is another feature you've mentioned.

24 Am I right to say that a part of the explosive charge in each bomblet, in

25 addition to the cumulative effect, also has a fragmentation effect? The

Page 5133

1 sheeting is destroyed, and the pellets are dispersed in the diameter of

2 some 10 metres, injuring personnel?

3 A. Yes. A part of it has the cumulative effect focusing on the

4 surface, whereas the other portion of the explosion has the fragmentation

5 effect dispersing the 420 pellets covering the area of some 10 metres.

6 References mention 10 metres or more.

7 Q. Since we are discussing the technical characteristics of the

8 Orkan, up until now we discussed the rocket with the warhead, which has

9 the cumulative and fragmentation effect containing the bomblets such as

10 this one; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The other type of the Orkan rocket has a different charge. To be

13 more specific, is it correct that the Orkan rocket can have only two types

14 of war let's, the one with cumulative effects, such as this one, and a

15 warhead used for anti- -- to pierce armour? These are anti-tank shells?

16 A. Yes. One type of warhead has a shaped charge and fragmentation

17 and bomblets and the other one is used to pierce armour.

18 Q. To clarify other thing: During your testimony in chief a question

19 was asked of you from which we could conclude that such a charge would, in

20 turn, mean that there is a cluster warhead. Am I right to say that the

21 multiple rocket launcher Orkan has two types of warheads and both of them

22 are warheads?

23 A. I think I mentioned that, on several occasions, that the Orkan

24 uses the rocket which has two types of cluster warheads. One is the type

25 we've discussed with the fragmentation and cumulative bomblets, and the

Page 5134

1 other one which has 24 anti-tank shells. As far as I know, the Orkan uses

2 exclusively only cluster ammunition. Although, there was some mention of

3 designing a different type of warhead, but it never came about, especially

4 in the references I used for this report.

5 Q. So as to discuss this further in detail because this is a very

6 technical matter with which attorneys seldom have use of, but this warhead

7 with the cumulative fragmentation charge -- I apologise I'll start again.

8 Had the anti-tank shells have been used would the effect have been

9 the same with the fragmentation cumulative warhead? Would it also

10 disperse pellets at the height of 800 to 1.000 metres?

11 A. The point is that they are equipped differently. In one type of

12 warhead there are fragmentation cumulative bomblets aimed at personnel and

13 tanks, armoured personnel carriers, and so on and so forth.

14 Q. The other type of warhead contains 24 anti-tank shells. This

15 other type of warhead is used for barrage fire or preventive fire against

16 armour units when enemy tanks advance, to create a sort of a minefield in

17 front of them.

18 Q. As regards that answer of yours, does that mean that the use of

19 such a type of warhead against Zagreb would presuppose the dispersion of

20 anti-tank shells on that area?

21 A. Yes. Instead of the bomblets we would have had the anti-tank

22 shellings.

23 Q. Are both charges cluster charges?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Concerning the tactical and technical characteristics of the

Page 5135

1 bomblets, you said it appears reinforced steel up to 60 millimetres. Just

2 to have an illustration of that, it is that thick, 6 centimetres of steel.

3 You say that this little contraption, I don't know why it's called a

4 bomblet, why we refer to it by a diminutive, but it is used against all

5 known standard types of tank?

6 A. Yes. The references specify that, and perhaps we should give it

7 some credit.

8 Q. Is there any difference between reinforced steel and plain steel?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What would be the ratio in terms of thickness? Say, six

11 centimetres of reinforced steel, how much would that be in plain steel?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Am I correct if I say that it would be 10 to 12 centimetres of

14 ordinary steel?

15 A. I don't know. Some comparisons were made, but I can only

16 speculate now. I may have overheard such piece of information, but I

17 don't know now.

18 Q. I won't insist any further then. I have another question for you.

19 Since -- since the effect of the bomblet happens on impact, piercing 6

20 centimetres of reinforced steel, what would be the equivalent if we

21 discuss, for example, the soil or a tree or a wall? How thick would a

22 wall have to be to correspond to six centimetres of reinforced steel?

23 A. I can't say specifically.

24 Q. One can find the reference to 15 to 20 centimetres of a brick wall

25 and up to 30 centimetres of wood and more for the earth. Do you remember

Page 5136

1 any such comparisons comparing the ability of the projectile and its

2 differences if applied against steel or some other material?

3 A. I can't recall the specific numbers.

4 Q. If such a bomblet can pierce the turret of the latest tank, can it

5 also inflict heavy damage on a building, say of the Ministry of Defence,

6 or can it be used against other materiel and equipment?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This type of rocket, has it been designed to use exactly for that?

9 That's why it's called cumulative fragmentation rocket. That was its

10 basic intention?

11 A. Its basic purpose was to be used against personnel and equipment

12 including tanks, personnel carriers, buildings if need be, and some other

13 facilities that can be used for military purposes.

14 Q. As regards these other facilities, we are going to come to that as

15 well in our cross-examination.

16 In chapter 3.4, you mentioned definition and types of targets.

17 That is page 13 of the B/C/S, and the next chapter in the English

18 after "Types of firing."

19 You state there that "an artillery target is any element of the

20 enemy's combat formation (feature or structure) which it is appropriate

21 and cost effective to attack with artillery."

22 Therefore, my question is as follows: This sentence, can this

23 also be applied to the use of the Arkan, any feature or structure which is

24 appropriate and cost-effective to attack with artillery?

25 A. Yes, that is what it stated in the artillery firing rules. It is

Page 5137

1 an artillery target, be it a gun or the Orkan or the earth-to-earth

2 rocket.

3 Q. You've spent a number of years with the artillery, and you quote

4 here in footnote number 4, Artillery Firing Rules. And you mention the

5 Artillery Firing Rules of the artillery directorate of the General Staff

6 of the armed force of the SFRY, that is of the JNA of the former

7 Yugoslavia.

8 A. Yes. And I was also one of the authors of the Artillery Firing

9 Rules.

10 Q. So this provision of the Artillery Firing Rules according to which

11 the artillery target is any element of the enemy's combat formation which

12 it is appropriate and cost effective to attack, it is not your own

13 conclusion. It is one of the basic principles of the deployment of the

14 artillery as a branch of the Armed Services; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. In continuation, you say what the target is in the

17 sense of artillery firing rules. You go on to explain that it is a

18 rectangular land or water area enclosing the physical target. You go on

19 to speak about the coordinates. Now, in that connection I would like to

20 ask you the following question: Are all targets of the same importance or

21 is there a division into tactical targets, operational targets, and

22 strategical targets?

23 A. Targets are divided into tactical, operational, or strategic,

24 according to tactical, operational, or strategic importance.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

Page 5138

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Now, within the operational importance or strategic importance,

3 can that be the headquarters of the Supreme Command, for example, the

4 General Staff, the Ministry of Defence from which the operations are

5 directed against forces.

6 A. In principle, yes, they can be any of those.

7 Q. Thank you. Furthermore, in your expert findings you say that

8 targets are target based on weapon range. Now, with respect to that, and

9 we're looking at page 14 of the B/C/S, it is 3.4, targets can be fired at

10 if it is within the range of the artillery piece. That's quite logical,

11 of course. You can't target a targets that is beyond a weapon's range.

12 Now, in the case of Orkan, was that within the range of the artillery

13 piece?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. When you refer to targets, you divide them up

16 according to structure and divide them up as individual or elementary,

17 single or elementary targets, heavy weapon, tank, launcher, bunker, et

18 cetera, or as group targets. And my question for you is this: The

19 characteristics, tactical, technical characteristics of the Orkan system,

20 are they such that it is appropriate for targeting group targets?

21 A. In view of the dispersion diagram, the Orkan was designed for

22 large-scale group targets, yes.

23 Q. Thank you. On page 17 of the B/C/S, or, rather, the next chapter

24 in your report point 3.5 entitled artillery ammunition, that's what I'd

25 like to refer you to now, and you speak about artillery ammunition and

Page 5139

1 expound upon a topic that we already discussed before discussing this

2 particular chapter when we spoke about the ammunition for the Orkan rocket

3 launcher system.

4 In this chapter, for artillery ammunition you say that there is a

5 projectile that must be launched at a certain distance in order to realise

6 the assignment. Is that the principle that is applied to the Orkan rocket

7 system as well?

8 A. Yes, it is. The only difference being that in the rocket systems

9 there is a rocket motor which ensures this, whereas with the conventional

10 weaponry it is -- the projectile is ejected from a barrel.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think this

13 would be an opportune moment to break for the day.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is indeed. We reconvene tomorrow morning at

15 9.00. Court adjourn --

16 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I may.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

18 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry to rise and to interrupt. If I could have

19 three minutes of the Court's time. I just want to raise a small matter

20 that pertains to tomorrow's sitting and I would just like a moment.

21 The next witness we were supposed to have after this witness was

22 supposed to be Slobodan Lazarevic. We have decided to drop him as a

23 witness and move on to the next witness, MM-80, and then continue with the

24 list. This is not based on anything new that we've learned about the

25 witness. It's really based on three factors. The first is that this

Page 5140

1 witness has always been more or less a background witness and has added

2 only a very narrow piece. In fact, his evidence was admitted via 92 bis

3 and he was really here just for very limited direct and mostly for

4 cross-examination.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who is that, Lazarevic?

6 MR. WHITING: Lazarevic. So that's the first reason. And the

7 second reason is, of course, we're always looking for opportunities to

8 streamline our case and move the case along. The third reason,

9 Your Honour, is that in meeting with the witness the very narrow piece we

10 were interested in, I've spoken to him about it, I find his memory not to

11 be very good on that point, a bit vague. Not that it's any different than

12 what it was, it's just more vague. So for those reasons, the Prosecution

13 has decided drop him as a witness.

14 Now, what this means is his evidence and the exhibits are already

15 in as exhibits because they were admitted via 92 bis. We, of course, are

16 not opposed now to removing those because they were admitted into evidence

17 on the condition that he would come to appear as a witness and be

18 cross-examined. Since that's not going to happen, we, of course, have no

19 opposition to dropping those from the -- those exhibits out and removing

20 them.

21 So I just wanted to inform the Court of that and also Defence

22 counsel because he -- he may -- I don't know, but he may have been reached

23 tomorrow. So I wanted to let the Court know about that.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: What may have happened tomorrow?

25 MR. WHITING: We may have reached him tomorrow. I'm not sure how

Page 5141

1 long the cross-examination of this witness will go, but that's why I

2 wanted to tell the Court today that we're dropping him and we'll move to

3 the next witness.

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm sorry that -- if we could redact

7 that.


9 MR. WHITING: I -- the next witness I do not believe will be

10 available tomorrow, unfortunately; he will only be available on Thursday.

11 So if this cross-examination finishes early, then we will have a short gap

12 tomorrow.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: How long are you going to you be, Mr. Milovancevic

14 with this witness?

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, two sessions would

16 be realistic, but with respect to the previous witness, the Great Gatsby,

17 we of course agree that he be left out of the list with one condition,

18 that his testimony be withdrawn from the files.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Naturally that would happen, Mr. Milovancevic.

20 When you say two sessions, you mean two more sessions from now on

21 that you still want to spend with this witness?

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is my

23 assessment, although I'm proceeding far faster than I expected to do. But

24 I'm just being cautious. Out of an abundance of caution, not to overstep

25 the deadline. That is what I think, two sittings after this, and

Page 5142

1 depending on the lieutenant colonel's answers, we might be more efficient.

2 We'll try to go through as soon as possible of course.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, then, Mr. Milovancevic. And,

6 Mr. Whiting, you will -- we will deal with what you were talking about a

7 little later, maybe early next session, the question of whether or not you

8 want to withdraw this witness and his evidence.

9 MR. WHITING: I'm -- okay. But I'm -- I'm not clear, Your Honour.

10 Is there an issue about this or -- about whether we can drop him as a

11 witness?

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: There is an issue, yes. Yeah, there is an issue.

13 MR. WHITING: Okay. Is it possible -- would it be possible to

14 address it now because we would otherwise send the witness home if he's

15 not going to be called.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Judge Nosworthy wants to present an issue.

17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Whiting, I do have an issue as a matter of

18 procedure. My understanding of 92 bis would be that the evidence in chief

19 is technically already in, and my question, therefore, would be, could you

20 withdraw it at this point in time as opposed to allowing it to remain on

21 the record as part of the record under 92 bis and to make the witness

22 available for cross-examination by the Defence if the Defence so chooses?

23 So on a procedural point, I would ask you to address me and the Chamber

24 concerning which is the correct course to adopt.

25 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour. I understand Your Honour's

Page 5143

1 question. The -- the evidence was admitted by the Court's decision via

2 Rule 92 bis on the condition that the witness come for cross-examination.

3 Ordinarily what happens when that happens is that the witness appears, and

4 at the moment the witness appears then the evidence is put into evidence

5 92 bis, the evidence in chief, and the witness is cross-examined.

6 We -- we worked a little bit more efficient and we provided the

7 evidence to the Chamber and the exhibits so they were already given

8 assigned exhibit numbers. However, I think that until the witness

9 actually appears, it still -- the witness is still within the control of

10 the Prosecution. It's still the Prosecution's witness, and it's still

11 within the Prosecution's power to decide whether the witness will be

12 called or not and, therefore, I would submit that the witness -- we can

13 still pull the witness from the witness list at this time.

14 If the Chamber has a different understanding, we would move then

15 to withdraw his evidence. I don't think -- from what I hear from Defence

16 counsel, they concur with having him withdrawn, and therefore I think that

17 that would be the most expeditious solution.

18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: That is the material statement I was looking

19 for, Mr. Whiting. You have put it in perspective now that we have heard

20 that the Defence is concurring in your application, but I was concerned

21 about removing the right of cross-examination by virtue of the course that

22 you attempted to -- were attempting to adopt, which I believe would have

23 been provided for the Defence. But now you have explained it in the

24 proper perspective, then my concern would have dissipated. Thank you very

25 much.

Page 5144

1 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. Then we will proceed, then,

2 Your Honour, that we will not be calling that witness. He will be

3 withdrawn.

4 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: If the Defence is ad idem, yes.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Defence is ad idem, isn't it? "Yes," will

6 suffice.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I accept what my

8 learned colleague of the Prosecution has just said. All I wanted to ask

9 is to clarify the question of the statement already. So now we hear that

10 the Prosecutor is withdrawing everything, witness and all.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then you need no order,

12 you're just going to withdraw.

13 MR. WHITING: I don't believe so, Your Honour. I think it's

14 sufficient.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 Court adjourned. Tomorrow, 9.00.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.54 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day

19 of June, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.