1 Monday, 12 June 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we begin with the trial, if we can deal

6 with one or two housekeeping matters.

7 There are some exhibits here, Exhibit 258 and 380. They seem to

8 be an identical statement of Witness MM-023, and therefore, they seem to

9 be a duplication -- there seems to be a duplication there. I don't know

10 whether maybe the registrar can correct this outside court and make sure

11 that only one exhibit number is assigned to whatever of the two is picked

12 up as the final exhibit. Maybe -- unless, Mr. Whiting, you have something

13 to tell us about the two of them at this point, or do you want to look at

14 them outside court, too?

15 MR. WHITING: If we could, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Very well, then. Maybe if you could look at

17 them outside court and then make a report so that the Registry knows what

18 to do. Okay?

19 Now, there is also Exhibits 396 and 397. They also contain

20 various pieces of evidence of Witness MM-044 which pieces of evidence seem

21 to overlap, but they seem to be the same kind of statement also, excepting

22 that the one statement seems, at least in the English version, very

23 incomplete. It's got only one page in the English version - that's 397 -

24 which is a translation of one page of the supplementary statement in

25 B/C/S, but there are six separate B/C/S pages which I think are the main

1 statements; the main statement and the supplementary. There is no English

2 translation of those six pages. The further six pages attached to the

3 B/C/S six pages are but pictures, emblems of badges of police and what

4 have you. That's fine. But the first six pages are not translated. So

5 if, again, Prosecution could look into that and give a report on what is

6 supposed to happen there. It may very well be that the translation of the

7 first six pages of the main statement were just overlooked maybe. Okay.

8 Thank you very much. You may call your witness, Mr. Whiting.

9 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, actually Ms. Richterova will be

10 handling the next witness and I promised that I would let her speak for

11 herself today in all respects, but there is one housekeeping matter that

12 we have to raise, and it requires us to go into private session.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very well, then. May the Chamber move into private

14 session.

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 Yes, Mr. Whiting, did you want to say something?

25 MR. WHITING: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. The Defence has

1 indicated that it intends to appeal the decision rendered by the Trial

2 Chamber on Friday concerning the evidence of Milan Babic and its status.

3 From my understanding of the Rules, and I just -- this will bear on the

4 issue of timing, under Rule 73, the Defence has to get certification from

5 the Trial Chamber in order to appeal, and the standard is set out in Rule

6 73(B), and that has to be done within seven days. We will oppose that.

7 We don't think that certification is warranted in this case, that we don't

8 believe that an immediate appeal of this issue is justified under the

9 standard that is set out under the Rule. In any event, I think that's the

10 starting point, is that that has to be done before anything else gets

11 resolved. Perhaps we can talk about how that will be done.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you. Let me start with the first

13 point you raised, Mr. Milovancevic. You raised first the point of the

14 scheduling order and you say the Defence is going to file its submissions

15 on that. I'm rather taken aback by that statement, that submissions are

16 going to be filed on a decision, when, in fact, the decision does say that

17 the scheduling of the case was discussed in court here, the Prosecution

18 indicated its position, and the Defence did not say anything about the

19 points. And that decision was made based on the fact that the Defence was

20 sort of neutral to the whole thing. However, the only thing that I can

21 say to you about that point is that the Bench will look at your

22 submissions as and when it does see them and will decide accordingly.

23 With regard to the next point that you made, deciding to appeal

24 the decision of the Trial Chamber on the Babic statements, it's obviously

25 your right to do so, and I'm again taken aback - and it may very well be

1 here because of my ignorance of the Rules - that you stand up and ask the

2 Court to stay certain orders that are made in the order pending your

3 appeal. I would imagine that once you have appealed and the appeal is

4 noted properly, whatever is in the order is stayed. So I'm not quite sure

5 I understand your request to the Bench, to the Chamber, to stay certain

6 time limits within that order.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not sure how

8 specific I was. In your decision, you left the possibility for the

9 parties to raise certain issues that were not dealt with during

10 cross-examination and you set a time limit with respect to that and, of

11 course, what I meant was the time limit would expire during the appeal

12 proceeding. What I wanted to say was that we would act upon your decision

13 concerning Babic's statements as soon as it becomes final. That is what I

14 wanted to say, because of course we don't know what the outcome of our

15 appeal against the decision would be.

16 Therefore, the Defence ask that we be allowed the possibility that

17 we do what you left to us as a possibility, even beyond the time limit of,

18 I believe, seven days that you specified in the decision. That was the

19 core of our application.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, the Defence cannot want to have

21 its cake and eat it. You disagree with that order. Obviously you

22 disagree with the time limits that are set in there because you don't want

23 to go that route, and it is your right to appeal. Go ahead and appeal.

24 Obviously, on appeal, if there are any time limits set in this order, and

25 the appeal goes in a way that it feels it's got to make certain time

1 limits, it will give you -- the Appeal Court will give you those limits.

2 What you're saying to this Chamber is, look, you, Chamber, I don't agree

3 with you, but just in case I fail in taking you on appeal, can you please

4 keep the door open for me to come back in and carry out what you're

5 ordering me to do in terms of this order that I don't recognise that I

6 want to appeal against. You can't do that. It's a procedure that is

7 unheard of in law and I don't think I can think of any rule here that

8 provides for that. I think take the course you want to take and the

9 Appeal Court will set new time limits. I would imagine. And -- or it

10 will uphold your appeal, and obviously, when it does uphold your appeal,

11 the time limits that we have made fall by the wayside with the order that

12 falls by the wayside.

13 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, there is one wrinkle and that is Rule

14 71 (B) and (C), and under that Rule, the decision about the appeal

15 actually stays with the Trial Chamber for the time being because the

16 Defence has seven days from the date of the decision to seek certification

17 from the Trial Chamber.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that, Mr. Whiting. I think they must

19 set the motion -- why must they consult the Chamber for legal advice on

20 how to do the appeal? They must do the appeal. Whatever way they want --

21 MR. WHITING: Well --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: And if the beginning, the starting point of that

23 appeal, is getting certification, then they must get the ball rolling. We

24 will look at that application for certification as it comes.

25 MR. WHITING: That's correct, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's all I'm --

2 MR. WHITING: That's due within seven days.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: They should know. That's all I say. Okay. I

4 guess the Chamber is quite clear. Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We understand you

6 and that suffices. Thank you.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 That brings to the -- to an end the housekeeping matters? Nothing

9 else from your side, Mr. Milovancevic?

10 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I guess I would just raise one last

11 thing on this issue, and that is because of the fact that we are

12 approaching the end of the Prosecution case, I wonder if there is any

13 possibility that the Defence could file its application under Rule 73(B)

14 sooner than the seven days so that the Prosecution could respond and we

15 could have a resolution of that perhaps even before the close of the

16 Prosecution case. Because otherwise, it puts the Prosecution in a bit of

17 a bind if that's not -- if that issue is not resolved before the close of

18 the Prosecution case. So perhaps the Defence could be asked if it would

19 be possible for them to file it sooner.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting, the body language that I read on my

21 brother and sister seems to say that I must accede to your request. I'm

22 disinclined to do so. I'll tell you why. I think it is that Defence's

23 right to file the appeal, and if they file it -- if they can file it

24 quicker, fine. It's just a request you're making, but I think any penalty

25 they would suffer they would suffer if they fail to file within the seven

1 days. And I would imagine that if as a result of the appeal, the

2 Prosecution is not able to close its case because a decision has to be

3 made on the Babic statement, then the Prosecution stays open. And if we

4 have to go beyond the scheduling period that we have given, the scheduling

5 order that we have made, so be it. There is nothing we can do about it.

6 MR. WHITING: Well, Your Honour, to be clear, I perfectly accept

7 that the Trial Chamber -- I would not ask the Trial Chamber to order the

8 Defence to file. I'm just asking --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: A request.

10 MR. WHITING: -- if it's possible. And I'm just hoping that we

11 can stay to the schedule. And in the event the Trial Chamber denies

12 certification of the appeal, then we would be able to stay with the

13 schedule, but that will only be possible if we move quickly in the next 10

14 days.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And in the event the Trial Chamber does grant the

16 certification, then we stay out, I hear what you say. But to me, it does

17 seem as if an appeal is going to cause a bit of an interruption in terms

18 of time and we've got to be prepared to live with that to some extent.

19 MR. WHITING: If there is an appeal.

20 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Whiting, I had thought that the primary

21 stress would have been for the Defence to move for certification as a

22 primary issue, before anything else. That would, in my opinion, be the

23 greater concern because that is a hurdle which the Defence has to face.

24 MR. WHITING: That --

25 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: "Hurdle" may be a wrong word, but it's a process

1 that the Defence has to face first, so I would think that they would

2 proceed expeditiously and very quickly with that in order to permit the

3 process of a fair and expeditious trial.

4 MR. WHITING: I think that's absolutely correct.

5 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: So the Trial Chamber can then determine the

6 issue of certification and they know whether they are able to appeal or

7 not.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Judge. As a very last

9 courtesy I will do to the Prosecution, Mr. Milovancevic, you heard

10 Mr. Whiting asking the Bench if the Bench could ask the Defence if the

11 Defence could be kind enough to apply for its certification sooner than

12 seven days. If it is so possible, please do so.

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Do I need to state my position

14 now, Your Honour, or is it merely you conveying this suggestion to me? Am

15 I supposed to state our position right now? I don't understand. Well,

16 what I can tell you at this moment is that the Defence has always -- well,

17 thank you.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm merely passing the Prosecution's request.

19 Not a suggestion, it's a request, and the Bench is neutral to that request

20 at this stage. It says nothing to it. It doesn't endorse it, it doesn't

21 deny it, it doesn't discourage it, it just passes it on. You decide what

22 you want to do with it, okay? And you don't have to tell us your position

23 on the request. I suggest that maybe you can communicate directly with

24 your learned friend on that one.

25 That should now bring to us the end of housekeeping matters.

1 Ms. Richterova, the witness has been standing outside for so long.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we go please to private session again?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May we please move to private

4 session.

5 [Private session]

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2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Ms. Richterova.

5 MS. RICHTEROVA:

6 Q. Can you please read for yourself, look at the name, and confirm

7 whether it is your name.

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can the usher please show this piece of paper to

10 the Defence and Trial Chamber.

11 Your Honour, may this sheet of paper with the name of the witness

12 be admitted into evidence under seal?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The sheet of paper containing the name and date of

14 birth of the witness is admitted under seal. May it please be given an

15 exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 791, under

17 seal.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 MS. RICHTEROVA: With the assistance of the usher, I would like to

20 show the witness another document.

21 Q. Witness, did you provide a witness statement to the Office of the

22 Prosecution on 6 and 9 November, 2000?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. On 30th of November, 2005, did you have an occasion to review this

25 statement in the presence of an officer of the Court and did you sign a

1 declaration attesting to its accuracy? The attestation is the last page

2 of the document which is in front of you.

3 A. Yes. I read it and I signed it.

4 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, the witness statement dated 6 and 9

5 November, 2000, was admitted into evidence under Rule 92 bis by the Trial

6 Chamber's decision dated 16 of January, 2006. The statement was admitted

7 in the redacted form, and it has been assigned Exhibit number 250, and I

8 assume that it was done under seal. If the Registry please can check it.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will the Registry please check whether the

10 statement was admitted under seal as Exhibit 250.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, it was.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

13 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you. Your Honours, the Prosecution

14 indicated in its motion when requesting the admission of this statement,

15 it indicated that there are certain matters which will be subjected to

16 redaction and these matters should be heard viva voce. So my intention is

17 to ask a few questions only based on these -- on the information which are

18 covered -- which are redacted from the statement, which have been admitted

19 into evidence.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand what you mean by "redacted" in

21 this context. Do you mean edit or delete?

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: No, we redacted from the witness statement and in

23 fact we have hard copies of the statement which I would like to distribute

24 in the court so Your Honours would see that on -- we redacted, based on

25 the order of Your Honours, and what we suggested in our motion, we

1 redacted certain parts from page 4, which went into the conduct of the

2 accused. So we redacted this part from the statement and we stated that

3 we would like to question the witness about this issue which were

4 redacted, which means they are not in evidence yet.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: But now, if they are redacted, why do you want to

6 question the witness about them?

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: Because by your decision, by Your Honours'

8 decision dated 16 of January, the Defence counsel can -- it was ordered

9 that this witness will appear for cross-examination on matters concerning

10 Martic's Police or policemen or other SAO Krajina. This information is

11 not in evidence, so the Defence counsel would cross-examine on something

12 which haven't been covered in examination-in-chief or which hasn't been

13 yet tendered into evidence. It's my understanding of the Rules. Maybe I

14 am wrong.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: No. I'm not even thinking of any Rule, but I'm

16 trying to follow the logic of your discussion and I'm -- I'm losing you

17 somewhere. This witness made a statement, okay? By an order of this

18 Chamber, certain parts of that statement were deleted.

19 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Now, you want to lead this witness on those

21 deleted parts?

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: But then what would have been the sense of deleting

24 them if you're going to lead the witness on those issues that have been

25 deleted?

1 MS. RICHTEROVA: Because Rule 92 bis doesn't allow to tender into

2 evidence statements which go into acts and conducts of the accused.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. Okay. So you want to lead viva

4 voce evidence on those to enable the Prosecution [sic] to cross-examine

5 the witness on those points?

6 MS. RICHTEROVA: Exactly. I'm sorry if I didn't express myself

7 properly.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe the Bench -- at least, I'm slow on the uptake

9 today. Thank you very much. You may lead the witness.

10 MS. RICHTEROVA:

11 Q. Before I go into these questions, there was only one small

12 clarification which you -- when you read the statement yesterday, you

13 stated that you found one small error regarding the -- that you stated

14 that all the witness -- all the villages which are named in your

15 statement, like Cerovljani, Bacin, Hrvatska Dubica, that they were part of

16 municipality of Hrvatska Dubica. Is this correct?

17 A. No. They were part of the municipality of Hrvatska Kostajnica.

18 This is an error that I did not spot when I was reading the statement.

19 Only after the war did they become the municipality of Bosanska Dubica,

20 with the villages that you have just mentioned.

21 Q. Did you say that they became part -- later became part of --

22 became part of municipality of Bosanska Dubica?

23 A. Hrvatska Dubica, Hrvatska Dubica.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MS. RICHTEROVA: Just to assist Your Honours, the village of

1 Hrvatska Dubica and town of Bosanska Dubica can be found in the atlas on

2 the page 21, and it's grid 3D.

3 Q. Witness, in 1991, a certain part of the year 1991, were you still

4 able to go to Bosanska Dubica?

5 A. Yes, occasionally.

6 Q. How far is Bosanska Dubica from your village?

7 A. Maybe 200 or 300 metres. Only the river Una separates us.

8 Q. When you went to Bosanska Dubica, at certain point, did you notice

9 any men in uniforms?

10 A. Yes. On one occasion, I saw one person in uniform.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get clarification? You asked the

12 witness at line -- I think line 5 of page 18 whether he was still able to

13 go back to Bosanska Dubica. Then the next question is how far is Bosanska

14 Dubica from your village. What is his village? I thought his village was

15 Bosanska Dubica.

16 MS. RICHTEROVA:

17 Q. Can you please answer Your Honour's question? What is the name of

18 your village?

19 A. Hrvatska Dubica.

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honours will see it on the map, just under

21 the name Dubica, without the word Hrvatska.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under the name. It is there -- the name called

23 Dubica, the area called Dubica across the river? Thank you.

24 MS. RICHTEROVA:

25 Q. Was it the only occasion when you saw uniformed person in Dubica

1 or were there more occasions when you saw people in uniforms in Bosanska

2 Dubica?

3 A. That was the only occasion.

4 Q. Do you remember what kind of uniform these men wore?

5 A. It was a camouflage uniform. It was more on the yellow side, and

6 I had seen such uniforms on TV. I have a colour TV. It was similar to

7 what the Serbian soldiers wore in Serbia, and I also had an occasion to

8 see on TV the kind of uniform that policemen wore, the policemen that they

9 -- that called themselves Martic's Police.

10 Q. On this occasion, when you saw this person in uniform for the

11 first time, did you know what unit or what kind of uniform it is?

12 A. No, I didn't know.

13 Q. Did you describe to someone what you saw?

14 A. Yes. To my friends in Hrvatska Dubica.

15 Q. And what did you learn from them? Did they provide you any

16 information regarding this type of uniform?

17 A. No. When I described the uniform, they only told me that this was

18 the kind of uniform worn by Martic's men, or Martic's Policemen.

19 Q. Did you, from these people, did you also obtain information maybe

20 about when -- I'm sorry, where these people were trained?

21 A. I got information that they were trained in Knin.

22 Q. When approximately it was in 1991 when you saw this -- this man in

23 Bosanska Dubica, this uniformed man?

24 A. It was in July, towards the end of July, 1991.

25 Q. Did you know Milan Martic at that time?

1 A. No. I only watched an interview with a journalist of the Croatian

2 TV, I believe her family name is Herceg [phoen]. She came to Knin and I

3 only remember one sentence uttered by Milan Martic, and that was, "While

4 Mile Martic's foot is in Knin, Franjo Tudjman will never set his foot in

5 Knin."

6 Q. Did you learn from someone whether there were more Martic's men in

7 Bosanska Dubica or in that area or whether this was just an exception?

8 A. This was an exception for me.

9 Q. This man that you saw, did you learn from someone that there were

10 Martic's men in that area?

11 A. I saw just one person, and then from a conversation with my

12 friends and from other sources, I heard that there were such men across

13 the river in Bosanska Dubica.

14 Q. You already stated that you saw Milan Martic only on television,

15 but did you learn whether Milan Martic ever come, or did you hear whether

16 Milan Martic ever come to Bosanska or Hrvatska Dubica?

17 A. Yes. On one occasion, we received information that Milan Martic

18 could be found in Bosanska Dubica at a meeting with Radovan Karadzic.

19 Q. Did you learn from someone where these Martics came from, those

20 who were in Bosanska Dubica?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, yes?

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. I

23 apologise to my learned friend, Ms. Richterova, for the interruption but I

24 believe that for the second time in her question, she is putting words

25 into the witness's mouth. Just a while ago, my learned friend asked the

1 witness about the people that he had seen. I did not intervene although

2 the witness said that he only saw one person on one occasion. And again

3 she is putting her question in plural. Can my learned friend be more

4 precise in her questions and can she bear in mind that the witness said

5 that he had seen only one person, and when she is putting questions to the

6 witness, she should also mention that one person, not people, plural.

7 That is the essence of my objection.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes?

9 MS. RICHTEROVA: I can answer this. It is true that the witness

10 said that he saw one person but he learned from, as he stated in his

11 testimony, that he learned that there were more people who were called

12 Martic's -- Marticevci.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you show us where he said so?

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm doing it right now. It is line -- it is page

15 19, line 19: "When I described the uniform, they only told me that this

16 was the kind of uniform worn by Martic's men or Martic's Police." And --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. You see now your current question is so far

18 removed from that information that he received that it is very difficult

19 to link, and you'd need to link it by asking -- by making a looping

20 statement. At least to say to him that he told you that he had heard

21 about what he says he had heard in line 19, and then ask whether those

22 people he was talking to or anybody else told him what you are now trying

23 to find out from him now.

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: If I may, on page 20, line 14: "I saw just one

25 person, and then from a conversation with my friends and from other

1 sources, I heard that there were -- there were such men -" plural -

2 "across the river in Bosanska Dubica." It was the reason why I used

3 plural.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand. All I'm saying is that answer is so

5 far removed to the question you're asking that that's why Mr. Milovancevic

6 perhaps is still thinking of the one man he only saw.

7 But Mr. Milovancevic, you see, we're being referred to two prior

8 occasions where the witness referred to sources that told him that there

9 were more than just one person. Are you okay?

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, the

11 instruction that you have just issued to my learned friend Richterova is

12 enough for me and I believe that the issue has been resolved with that.

13 Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed,

15 Ms. Richterova. Just remember next time to establish a link in a similar

16 situation.

17 MS. RICHTEROVA:

18 Q. When you discussed this one man with your friends and you received

19 information that they know that there were such men - men - in Bosanska

20 Dubica, did you learn where these men, where did they come from?

21 A. Not in very specific terms. I only learned that they had come

22 from the direction of Knin.

23 Q. Thank you. It's concluded my examination-in-chief.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Richterova.

25 Mr. Milovancevic?

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the

2 cross-examination will be led by my co-counsel, Mr. Nikola Perovic.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Perovic.

4 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Before I

5 start with the cross-examination I would kindly ask the usher to

6 distribute the witness's statement amongst the participants in these

7 proceedings.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Perovic:

9 Q. Sir, good afternoon. You have probably concluded that I am one of

10 the Defence counsel for Milan Martic and that I will start the

11 cross-examination as is stipulated by the Rules.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that the Defence counsel

13 has just used the witness's full name, which the interpreter did not

14 repeat in her interpretation.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Perovic, you heard that? You heard that,

16 Mr. Perovic? Apparently you addressed the witness by his full name.

17 Please remember this is a protected witness. We are in open session,

18 aren't we? But then the interpreters say they didn't repeat the name, so

19 that will be fine.

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: It will be in the original broadcasting because

21 the broadcast is in three languages. So the original will be there.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: So we need to delete it from the original?

23 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The French interpreters note that they repeated

25 the name.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, can we make sure that both the B/C/S and the

2 French interpretation and any other interpretation that is not English,

3 that name is deleted.

4 Thank you very much. You may proceed, Mr. Perovic. Just let's

5 remember that. Okay.

6 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for the warning, Your

7 Honour.

8 Q. In the future, I will address you as "Witness," and now I have a

9 warning. I believe that the time in the courtroom is not right. It seems

10 that the watch has stopped in the courtroom, just to avoid any delays in

11 the future. I don't think it's showing the right time. That's what I'm

12 saying.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Perovic. I've been looking at it

14 and wondering why time is taking so long to move. Thank you, we'll rely

15 on the other watches.

16 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. I shall now start the cross-examination according to the Rules of

18 Procedure and Evidence.

19 Witness, since the two of us speak the same language, I would

20 kindly ask you to make a short pause between my questions and your answers

21 to help the interpreters do their job.

22 In November 2000, you provided a statement to the OTP; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The statement has just been distributed. From your CV --

1 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we briefly go into private

2 session? Because I'm going to put questions to the witness that might

3 reveal his identity.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

5 [Private session]

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25 [Open session]

1 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We are in open session. You

3 may proceed, Mr. Perovic.

4 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

5 (redacted)

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11 Q. You explained that in Dubica, there were 80 per cent Croats and 20

12 per cent Serbs.

13 A. Yes. That was more or less the situation.

14 Q. In Hrvatska Dubica itself, Croats made a majority?

15 A. Yes, a large majority.

16 Q. Did you often travel to other places outside Hrvatska Dubica; to

17 other parts of Croatia? And I'm specifically referring to the period

18 after the conflict started, first the political conflicts and then the

19 armed conflicts. In your statement you said that at that time, many roads

20 were blocked.

21 A. I travelled --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just interrupt? Two points, Mr. Perovic.

23 Can I suggest that after you have asked the question, you switch off.

24 That will force you to allow the witness to answer, but also the

25 interpreters to interpret. I think you're moving a little too fast.

1 Secondly, I'm not quite sure that the questions you've asked so

2 far relate to Martic's Police. You've gone into a bit of background about

3 this witness, which is what we should have done in private session, if we

4 had to go into that background, and you had promised you were not going to

5 go into his background. I'm not quite sure where else you want to go with

6 your questions, and we want to make sure that the witness is protected.

7 So we also want to make sure that you only cross-examine on the things for

8 which you're entitled to cross-examine.

9 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] I will try to slow down. As far as

10 the questions I have put are concerned, they had to do with the dealings

11 of this witness in a given territory, and they were to serve as an

12 introduction to other matters including Martic's Police, and so on. First

13 of all, I wanted to establish the witness's whereabouts at the time in

14 order for me to proceed to the questions that should be the subject of

15 cross-examination.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: What I'm saying is when you ask questions about his

17 whereabouts, that's too close to home, too close to the bone, in terms of

18 security. Therefore, we must go into private session if you must ask

19 those questions at all.

20 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] I suggest that we move into private

21 session for the next couple of questions, and that will be very brief.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

23 [Private session]

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13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Perovic, please try and give us the page

15 references in the English also, if you can. In the statement, the

16 paragraph reference, if you can.

17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the last two

20 examples, the page referred to was the same in both the B/C/S and the

21 English versions. And I will bear in mind the need to refer you to the

22 appropriate page.

23 Q. Witness, before then, in Hrvatska Dubica, there had not been any

24 armed Serb units but only the ZNG units, as you described them in your

25 statement; is that correct?

1 A. Before that, there had been armed groups standing guard in the

2 areas occupied by Serbs, in the areas where Serbs lived. I did not

3 personally see them, but I heard of them. This was the reason why we

4 started standing guard in our village, with the sole aim of protecting the

5 police station.

6 Q. At that time, that's to say in August, 1991, as you explained,

7 most of the Croatian population, because of an offensive launched against

8 Kostajnica, had moved out of Hrvatska Dubica; is that correct?

9 A. Many of them had moved out by then, but quite a few stayed behind.

10 Q. With the Croatian population, did members of the ZNG move out as

11 well?

12 A. Yes. They did. The last ZNG member left the area on the 13th of

13 September, 1991. That's to say left Hrvatska Dubica.

14 Q. After that, did members of Serb armed formations enter Hrvatska

15 Dubica?

16 A. Yes. As far as I heard, they entered the area on the 20th of

17 September.

18 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move into private session

19 for the next question, please?

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

21 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 Yes, Mr. Perovic.

16 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. On page 4 of your statement, you say --

18 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Madam Nosworthy, I

19 cannot meet your request now because I only know that the page in the

20 B/C/S version is page 4. I really don't know what it is in English.

21 Q. But at any rate, you state there that: "When most of the Croatian

22 population left Hrvatska Dubica because of the offensive against

23 Kostajnica, the SAO Krajina Police set up a police station in the

24 municipal offices in the village. This was sometime in August, 1991. I

25 don't know who the commander or who the members of this police station

1 were." End of quotation. And these are your words, aren't they?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This happened at the time of your departure from Dubica. For this

4 reason, you don't know who the commander or police officers in the station

5 were?

6 A. It says here that it was in August, and this is wrong. I must

7 have made a mistake during or at the time when I was giving the statement

8 because it was in the month of September that the police station was set

9 up.

10 Q. At any rate, it took place after you had left Dubica, and for this

11 reason you were not aware of either the commander or the police staff at

12 this particular station; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Are you quite certain as to whether this was a police station or

15 maybe a Territorial Defence Staff or anything else?

16 A. I cannot answer this with any certainty.

17 Q. At the time you were still in Dubica, there were no members of the

18 Serb police there, were there?

19 A. Yes, that's correct, there weren't any.

20 Q. On page 3 of the B/C/S version, and page 4 of the English version

21 of your statement, you state, and I quote: "When the SAO Krajina was set

22 up, we realised that many young Serbs had gone over to Bosanska Dubica and

23 joined Martic's Police, known as the SAO Krajina Police." You also go on

24 to say, or rather, you say, "when the SAO Krajina was formed." Which year

25 did you have in mind?

1 A. 1991.

2 Q. You go on to state, "They were sent for training to Knin and

3 returned as policemen to Bosanska Dubica." These are your words?

4 A. Yes. That was what I heard.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Perovic, would that be a convenient time, now

6 that that time is not to be relied upon?

7 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] I was hoping you would take care of

8 the time because I could not rely on the watch. Yes. I agree.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Perovic. We will take a

10 short break and come back at 4.00.

11 Court adjourned.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Perovic, just as a reminder: In addition to

15 having to switch off when you finish asking your question to allow the

16 interpreters, there is also the all-important fact that this witness --

17 one of his protection measures involves voice distortion, so it is

18 important that all mikes are off when he speaks. Okay?

19 Thank you very much, Mr. Perovic. You may proceed.

20 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will keep

21 this in mind.

22 Q. Witness, my last question before the break was as follows: You

23 spoke of young Serbs who were sent for training to Knin and returned from

24 there to Bosanska Dubica as police officers. But let us first clarify.

25 Bosanska Dubica is to be found in Bosnia-Herzegovina and not in Croatia;

1 is that correct?

2 A. Yes. It is in Bosnia.

3 Q. You go on to state: "The police officers of Serb ethnicity who

4 served in other parts of Croatia left their posts and joined the SAO

5 Krajina Police force under the command of Mr. Milan Martic which police

6 force was called Martic's Police." In connection with this I have the

7 following question: You told us a moment ago that you were living in

8 Hrvatska Dubica and that you did not leave Hrvatska Dubica very often.

9 How come you were able to know that police officers of Serb ethnicity who

10 served in other parts of Croatia were joining Martic's Police and serving

11 under Mr. Martic's command?

12 A. I received the information from friends and acquaintances. This

13 was not firsthand knowledge, but hearsay.

14 Q. You go on to state that you saw some of them in Bosanska Dubica

15 but you did not know their names, which means basically you didn't know

16 them; is that correct?

17 A. No. I didn't know those police officers.

18 Q. You described their uniforms as light-green camouflage uniforms

19 with bits of yellow in it. You also said that they wore berets with a

20 badge of a double-headed eagle. Do you stand by this description of yours

21 today?

22 A. Yes. I do stand by this description. The uniform I described I

23 did not see. I stated that this was what I heard and I relayed it

24 accurately. Therefore, I did not see the uniforms personally.

25 Q. In connection with this, you state, I quote: "I think a special

1 police unit from Serbia wore these as their uniforms. I suspect that when

2 the Martic's Police was formed, they were given the uniforms by this

3 special unit." This was your statement. Now, my question is as follows:

4 How were you able to know what sort of uniform special police units from

5 Serbia wore?

6 A. On one occasion I saw the Nis specials on television and that is

7 what I assumed that the uniforms were the same, and this is what my

8 assumption was based on. I did not see any of them in person.

9 Q. You are talking about the Nis unit. Are you referring to the

10 police or the army?

11 A. I'm referring to the police. I'm not a hundred per cent sure

12 because I never saw those units personally and I didn't know who they

13 belonged to. In my view, they were police.

14 Q. Another question with this regard: How do you know that these

15 special police units from Serbia had given their uniforms to the Martic's

16 Police?

17 A. Again I heard it. I did not see it personally.

18 Q. You've also told us that you don't remember the insignia on those

19 uniforms; is that correct?

20 A. I don't remember the insignia.

21 Q. In other words, you don't remember whether they wore the police

22 insignia?

23 A. No, I don't.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Witness. I don't have any other questions

25 for you.

1 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this completes my

2 cross-examination of this witness. Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Perovic. Ms. Richterova?

4 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honour, there won't be any

5 questions for re-examination.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Richterova. Judge?

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Witness, may I ask you two questions. In your

9 written statement you described that around August, 1991, the SAO Krajina

10 Police set up a police station and that both Serbs and Croats moved out of

11 the village Hrvatska Dubica. Could you clarify who left the village, at

12 what point in time, and why, in your opinion.

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2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

3 And now, before that exodus, could you explain the composition of

4 the population of Hrvatska Dubica and some other places? I would like to

5 ask you also about Cerovljani, Zivaja, Slabinja, Bacin, and Bosanska

6 Dubica. First Hrvatska Dubica.

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2 MS. RICHTEROVA: Sorry, I only want to know whether we are in

3 private session because this information would -- I don't know whether we

4 finished in private session or whether we are in open session.

5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: We are in open session.

6 MS. RICHTEROVA: So this should be deleted from the record.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Ms. Richterova. I'm sorry I wasn't

8 alive to that. May we move into private session for the completion of

9 this question, please. And may the answers that have been given thus far

10 be deleted from the public record.

11 [Private session]

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18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 The Chamber would like to take just this one opportunity to give,

22 in a more -- slightly more elegant manner, the oral decision it gave a

23 little earlier this afternoon on -- I beg your pardon. It's got to be in

24 private session. I'm so sorry.

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10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Ms. Richterova, next witness.

13 MS. RICHTEROVA: Next witness will be handled by Ms. Valabhji.

14 Therefore I would like to ask to be excused.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome, you're excused, Ms. Richterova.

18 You are excused, you may leave the Court.

19 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, Ms. Valabhji.

21 MS. VALABHJI: Good afternoon, Your Honours. The Prosecution

22 calls its next witness, Dr. Mladen Loncar, an expert witness.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Dr. Mladen Loncar can be

24 brought into court. Thank you.

25 [The witness entered court]

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

4 WITNESS: MLADEN LONCAR

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may be seated. Thank you very much.

7 Yes, Ms. Valabhji. I almost said Ms. Richterova.

8 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Examination by Ms. Valabhji:

10 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Can you hear me clearly?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Sir, please state your name for the Court.

13 A. Mladen Loncar.

14 Q. Dr. Loncar, were you born in 1961 in Donji Gradac,

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16 A. Yes, Your Honour.

17 Q. Are you of Croatian nationality?

18 A. Yes, Your Honours.

19 Q. When you were less than a year old, did you and your family move

20 to Ilok, Croatia, where you spent your childhood?

21 A. Yes, Your Honours.

22 Q. I'd now like to read a brief summary of your educational

23 background, and if you concur, please say so at the end.

24 In 1987, you received a graduate degree in medicine in Novi Sad,

25 Vojvodina. You then commenced a specialisation in neuropsychiatry which

1 you had to interrupt due to war operations. You restarted that

2 specialisation and graduated in Zagreb in 1998.

3 In 1999, you completed a post-graduate study of social psychiatry

4 at the medical school in Zagreb. You completed another master's degree in

5 social psychiatry at the medical school of Zagreb University in 2003. Is

6 this all correct, Dr. Loncar?

7 A. Yes, Your Honours.

8 Q. In brief, can you tell us what social psychiatry is.

9 A. Social psychiatry is a branch of psychiatry that deals with

10 problems of the health of individuals in community and the impact of that

11 community on the individuals. That would be the long and the short of it,

12 or in a nutshell.

13 Q. Thank you. Do you currently work as a psychiatrist in Zagreb?

14 A. Yes. I worked at the clinical hospital centre, Zagreb, also known

15 as Rebro.

16 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honour, could I now have the assistance of the

17 usher in distributing the document.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would the usher please help.

19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Before you go on, Ms. Valabhji, that graduate

20 degree in 1987, is it a first degree in the discipline or is it a

21 post-graduate degree? Because "graduate" has two different senses in the

22 American as against the English context, and I would like to know whether

23 it's a first degree or a post-graduate degree.

24 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Witness, Dr. Loncar, you've been asked for some clarification.

1 The degree that you received in 1987 in Novi Sad, Vojvodina, Her Honour

2 would like to know whether that was a first degree or a post-graduate

3 degree.

4 A. Your Honour, this was a regular degree after the undergraduate

5 studies, after which I received the title of medical doctor, an MD.

6 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much.

7 MS. VALABHJI:

8 Q. Sir, you've just been given a document. Do you recognise it?

9 A. Yes. This is my CV.

10 Q. Let's turn to page 2 of the document. I'm of course referring to

11 page 2 of the English version. At the top of the page, it indicates that

12 in 1999, you became a court-appointed expert in the field of medicine,

13 psychiatry, appointed by the Zagreb county court. Was this appointment

14 renewed in 2003 for another four years?

15 A. Yes, Your Honours. Once you become a forensic expert, this is

16 extended every four years, providing that the expert has met the criteria.

17 Q. Thank you. And now, let's turn to page 6 of this document. At

18 the top of the page, you mention your position as coordinator of the

19 National Programme of Psychosocial Aid to the War Victims within the

20 Ministry of Families, Veterans and Intergenerational Solidarity in Zagreb.

21 Are you still coordinator of this programme today?

22 A. Your Honour, within the Ministry for Families, Veterans and

23 Intergenerational Solidarity there is a department for sociopsychological

24 help that I'm in charge of, and the programme that you have just mentioned

25 is the one that I am the leader of.

1 Q. Now, is there anything else in your CV which you would like to add

2 or change?

3 A. As far as my education is concerned, there are several points that

4 -- or several pieces of information that have not been included here, but

5 it does not affect the overall information.

6 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honour, could this document please be admitted

7 into evidence.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit number 792, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Ms. Valabhji.

12 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Sir, are you also the coordinator of the Medical Centre for Human

14 Rights in Zagreb?

15 A. Yes, Your Honour.

16 Q. I'd like to ask you some more questions about the Medical Centre

17 for Human Rights. First of all, when was it founded?

18 A. It was founded in 1992, and it was attached to the medical college

19 in Zagreb, whereas in 1994, it gained the status of an NGO,

20 non-governmental organisation, or a not-for-profit organisation, therefore

21 a civic organisation.

22 Q. That was actually going to be my next question.

23 What does the work of the Medical Centre for Human Rights involve,

24 in brief?

25 A. It -- one has to emphasise that it was founded with a view to

1 assisting war victims in providing them with psychosocial assistance, and

2 also with conducting research into the health condition of the victims and

3 into collecting information about the victims' experience.

4 Q. Now, what is the methodology primarily used by the medical centre

5 in relation to its work with war victims?

6 A. The methodology that was used mostly, in addition to others, was

7 the -- that of taking testimonies, or statements.

8 Q. Approximately how many victims has the medical centre seen or

9 treated since 1992?

10 A. Somewhere between 4.500 to 5.000 victims, but not all of them went

11 through this testimony-taking procedure.

12 Q. Those who didn't go through this procedure, was there another

13 procedure that was used? How was it different?

14 A. We applied short supportive psychotherapeutic techniques, or brief

15 support, as we put it in psychiatry, and of course it depended on the

16 victim involved, whether longer term or shorter term treatment was

17 required.

18 Secondly, psychosocial assistance in the general sense was

19 provided, ranging from the provision of advice, counselling, and some

20 other elements of social work.

21 Q. What made you decide to become involved in this area of work

22 relating to war victims and victims of trauma?

23 A. The immediate thing that prompted me to work with the victims was

24 the fact that I myself was a victim during the war. I had gone through

25 several stages of torture, abuse, in Begejci, and Vojvodina.

1 Q. Now, when did this happen? Sorry to interrupt you.

2 A. Once a person goes through such an experience, one cannot become

3 immune to that, and it simply forced me to work with people and help them,

4 and that's what I proceeded to do.

5 Q. And when did this happen to you? When did you go through this

6 experience?

7 A. I went through the experience in the months of October and

8 November, 1991, and I was then exchanged on the 10th of November, 1991.

9 Q. And after the 10th of November, 1991, were there any other

10 incidents that happened to you?

11 A. I must admit that my work with the victims was not that well

12 received. My impression was that victims constituted a burden for

13 society, and I came across quite a few difficulties through my work with

14 victims and the protection of their rights and human rights in general.

15 Q. Would you care to elaborate on that, sir?

16 A. In 1993, I experienced, I can safely say, something that was the

17 bringing into the police station for a suspect interview.

18 Q. Do you know why you were brought in?

19 A. The reason for that was - or at least this was the way it was

20 presented to me - that I had to change some identity papers, but I knew

21 that the main -- the real reason was my work.

22 Q. And just so that we are all clear, your work being what exactly,

23 at that stage?

24 A. At that point in time, I was working on various projects,

25 providing psychosocial aid and the protection of human rights.

1 Q. Okay. I'd like to turn now to a different topic. Sir, were you

2 asked to prepare an expert report in the case Prosecutor versus Milan

3 Babic?

4 A. Yes, Your Honour.

5 MS. VALABHJI: Could Exhibit number 8 please be displayed. Its

6 ERN is 03526654.

7 Is it on the screen, Your Honours? Okay. I see it now. Thanks.

8 Thank you.

9 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is this the expert report you prepared in relation to the Babic

12 case?

13 A. Yes, it is, Your Honour.

14 Q. What is the focus of your report?

15 A. The focus of the report was the health condition, that's to say

16 consequences, in some categories of victims.

17 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honours, the expert report of Dr. Mladen

18 Loncar has been admitted into evidence in this case pursuant to the Trial

19 Chamber's decision of the 16th of January -- pardon me, the 13th of

20 January, 2006, and it bears Exhibit number 8.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 MS. VALABHJI:

23 Q. Sir, did you testify as an expert witness in the Babic case?

24 A. Yes, Your Honour.

25 Q. And were you called as a witness by both the Prosecution and the

1 Defence in that case?

2 A. Yes, Your Honour.

3 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honours, the transcripts of Dr. Loncar's

4 testimony in the Babic case have also been admitted into evidence in this

5 case pursuant to the same decision of the 13th of January, 2006.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Valabhji.

7 MS. VALABHJI:

8 Q. My next and last few questions concern statistics and information

9 presented in your report. Let's turn to page 3 of your report, which is

10 page 3 in the English and page 4 of the B/C/S.

11 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honour, I don't know if it will assist: I

12 happen to have hard copies of the report. If it's deemed useful.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, so far I've been able to get to page 3 on the

14 electronic medium, so, being the least knowledgeable of computers on the

15 Bench, I should imagine that my brother and sister are coping better than

16 I am, actually.

17 MS. VALABHJI: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Sir, on page 3 of the report - page 3 of the English and page 4 of

19 the B/C/S - you address victims of incarceration. Now, paragraph 3 in the

20 English commences as follows: "Between 650 and 700 non-Serbs were

21 incarcerated in the Knin camps."

22 Have you been able to locate that sentence, Dr. Loncar?

23 A. Yes, I have found it, Your Honour.

24 Q. My question is: What is the basis for this information, and what

25 time period does it pertain to?

1 A. The information has to do with the period between 1991 and 1995,

2 Your Honour. That is the period during which this approximate number of

3 persons were in incarceration.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what is the basis for the information?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The basis for the information, or

6 the source of the information were the survivors, and their testimonies

7 were taken in which they related their traumatic experience. Based on the

8 information provided by the victims from these camps, we were able to

9 reconstruct the number of persons incarcerated in those locations in the

10 time period. Based on the victims' statements, we found out that these

11 people did not only come from Croatia but also from Bosnia. Some of them

12 were of Croat ethnicity, others of Muslim ethnicity. In their statements,

13 victims pointed to at least two locations where the people were had --

14 held. One was the old hospital in Knin and the other was the southern --

15 or rather, northern camp where the people were held.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Ms. Valabhji, you may proceed.

17 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. As to the northern camp, the second one you mentioned, any idea

19 where that was, from the information you've reviewed or that you're

20 familiar with?

21 A. Based on the information I received from survivors, these were

22 camps held by military forces.

23 Q. Now, in this same paragraph, there is a reference to Martic's

24 Police. And keeping this in mind, let's turn to page 12 of your report -

25 which is page 15 in the B/C/S version - and on that page, crimes that

1 occurred in October, 1991, in Hrvatska Kostajnica municipality, are

2 addressed. At the top of page 12, and again at the bottom, references to

3 Martic's Police are made.

4 Have you located that in your report? It's on page 15.

5 A. Yes, Your Honour.

6 Q. What is the basis for this information?

7 A. As stated here in one section where a survivor's statement is

8 quoted, the uniformed persons styled themselves as Martic's Police. That

9 was how they called themselves.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, I'm trying to follow your examination,

11 Ms. Valabhji. I'm at page 12 of the report. I'm trying to look for the

12 reference to Martic's Police at the top of page 12. You said to the

13 witness both at the top and at the bottom of that page references are made

14 to Martic's Police, and until I find that reference at the top, I'm not

15 able to follow your question, "What is the basis for this information?"

16 MS. VALABHJI: I understand, Your Honour. It's --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe if you can refer us to a line.

18 MS. VALABHJI: Yes, absolutely. The printout that I have - and I

19 do hope that the page number corresponds to the document that is in

20 e-court; I'm presuming that it does - it's the second line at the top of

21 page 12.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The second line at the top of page -- of my page 12

23 says, "Serbian forces at the same time took 30 more civilians from Bacin

24 and 24 civilians from Dubica and Cerovljani villages to an unknown

25 location and killed them."

1 MS. VALABHJI: I think I see the problem, Your Honour. I need to

2 look at another printout because the printout that I have of this report

3 is -- doesn't correspond in terms of the pages and lines.

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I have the same problem as you

7 do. In the B/C/S, the report is not numerated at all. And I have the

8 same problem with the English version. This should really be clarified.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You'll take that into

10 account, Ms. Valabhji?

11 MS. VALABHJI: Indeed, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

13 MS. VALABHJI: I think the version that's in e-court, Your Honour,

14 it's at the bottom -- it starts at the bottom of page 11 of the English.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to help Mr. Milovancevic in the B/C/S?

16 If you understand the language?

17 MS. VALABHJI: I have some difficulties in that regard, but I'll

18 do my best, Your Honour.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I may give

20 a suggestion. I don't know if it will assist. Perhaps my learned friend

21 could give me the ERN number. There is always a page number, it's always

22 the same for every page, and perhaps my learned friend could give me that

23 reference. The marking in the top right-hand corner is always the same.

24 Perhaps this should be used as a reference.

25 MS. VALABHJI: Actually, I think my learned friend read my mind.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MS. VALABHJI: The ERN in the B/C/S is 03526668. And in the

3 B/C/S, it's the second paragraph and the second line of the second

4 paragraph, which has the first reference to Martic's Police, in the region

5 of this page. And the second reference -- the second reference is on the

6 next page of the B/C/S, which is ERN 03526669.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I have found the text. I thank

8 my learned friend.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

10 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you, and just so there is no confusion, in

11 the English, it starts at the bottom of page 11, and the second reference

12 is on page 12 in the last paragraph. I was actually looking at the filed

13 version of the expert report, filed in February, 2005, last year.

14 Q. Now, Dr. Loncar, there are several references to Martic's Police

15 in your report, and we have just looked at several of them, one being

16 earlier on page 4 of the B/C/S, and the other ones being on the pages I've

17 just mentioned. What is the basis for this information?

18 A. Your Honour, I received the information on the basis of my work

19 with victims, who had on several occasions and at different points in time

20 met persons who -- uniformed persons who introduced themselves as Martic's

21 Police. That was the basis for their identification of these persons as

22 Martic's Police and for their statements given to me.

23 Q. Now, let's turn to -- of course, my page references are a bit

24 askew so I'll have to double-check this. It should be in the region of

25 page 6 of the English, where the victims of displacement are addressed.

1 And indeed it is page 6 of the English. And in the B/C/S, I believe the

2 ERN is 03526660.

3 Sir, on this page you address the victims of displacement, and in

4 the third paragraph under heading 4, you state that tens of thousands of

5 Croatians and non-Serbs were displaced or fled from the so-called Krajina

6 SAO. Practically the entire non-Serbian population was deported, forcibly

7 removed, or killed. What is the basis for this statement?

8 A. The information contained here stems from my work with victims who

9 had been displaced -- expelled, either in the first or in the subsequent

10 waves, when they came across the armed Serb forces, they managed to escape

11 and told us how many people stayed behind. This was one source of

12 information. The other was the 1991 census information. The assessment

13 related here is based on these two particular references, and as far as I

14 was able to see, we used sources of information by the UNHCR and others by

15 the Republic of Croatia. Based on that, the assessment is that there was

16 the total of 200.000 displaced persons during the war period.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I -- I'm sorry, Doctor, you said, "The

18 information contained here stems from my work with victims who had been

19 displaced -- expelled either in the first or in the subsequent waves, when

20 they came across the armed Serb forces, they managed to escape --" and

21 this is where I want you to listen: "... they managed to escape and told

22 us how many people stayed behind." Stayed behind where?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, some people stayed

24 behind in the occupied area, but this was just a handful, and most of them

25 were elderly persons, infirm, who believed that nothing -- no harm would

1 come to them. Based on my conversations with survivors, I learned that

2 these people wanted to protect their property, their properties, and that

3 was the choice they made, to stay behind.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you determined the number of displacements by

5 subtracting the number of those who stayed behind from the census numbers

6 of 1991? Is that how, more or less, in that --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's correct, Your Honour.

8 This was an attempt at reconstructing the numbers of people who stayed

9 behind, the aim being to protect them. Because in the period between 1991

10 and 1995, we were receiving information that some of them had been killed,

11 and with a view to protecting them, we tried to establish their numbers

12 and whether they were still alive.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Doctor. You may proceed,

14 Ms. Valabhji.

15 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honour, actually that was my last question. I

16 have no further questions of this witness.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Valabhji. I'm sorry I

18 delayed you from sitting down.

19 MS. VALABHJI: That's quite all right.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:

23 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Loncar. I am the Defence counsel for

24 Mr. Martic and my name is Predrag Milovancevic. We are about to start

25 cross-examining you and we will be dealing with some issues that might be

1 relevant for the Defence. Would you please be so kind as to make a break

2 before answering my questions so that the interpreters could do their job

3 properly. I will try to bear this in mind myself, and of course I thank

4 you for doing the same.

5 A. Thank you.

6 Q. Before we go into your background information, I wanted to ask you

7 this: What was your task in these proceedings? Can you tell us?

8 A. Yes, Your Honours. At the request of the Prosecution, my task was

9 to deal with the trauma of the civilian population and to provide an

10 assessment of their health and the assessment of what they were through.

11 Q. Today, I have not heard a single word about the health condition

12 of these people save for the fact that I heard that you counted the number

13 of expelled refugees, that you know who the perpetrators of the crimes

14 are, and I would like to know now --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Ms. Valabhji?

16 MS. VALABHJI: Sorry, Your Honour. Just to point out that the

17 expert report and the transcripts of his previous testimony, which

18 discusses at length the medical conditions, the physical and the mental

19 impact of victims of incarceration, victims of displacement, these are all

20 set out in the admitted evidence in this case, therefore I did not go into

21 it in great detail.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: And your leading this afternoon was aimed at

23 clarifying issues that the Prosecution thought needed clarifying? That's

24 how I understood it.

25 MS. VALABHJI: Indeed, Your Honour. I elicited some background

1 information on his educational experience, and then I focused on a few

2 matters additionally.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Milovancevic, you may not

4 have heard a word about the medical conditions of patients but you

5 probably have read a lot about it from the witness's report, which is part

6 of the evidence.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Sir, your main task, therefore, was to analyse the psychological

9 status of victims; am I right?

10 A. Psychological and physical and the consequences that the victims

11 suffered. This is what my task was, or at least that's how I understood

12 it, and this is what I did.

13 Q. In connection with that answer of yours, I would like to say that

14 you are a Prosecution expert on the psychological status of the victims,

15 or maybe also on the physical consequences.

16 A. Your Honour, as a forensic expert, I can say that I deal with

17 psychiatric issues. However, in my report, based on my education, I can

18 also talk about physical consequences that the victims suffered, without

19 going into any specialist field such as treatment or establishing

20 diagnosis.

21 Q. Since we have addressed this, you have dealt quite a lot with the

22 physical consequences. Now you have just told us that you're not an

23 expert on that. Does it mean that you went beyond your field of expertise

24 in your report?

25 A. Your Honours, in any case, as a doctor, psychiatrist, I have to

1 refer to physical conditions or impairments suffered by the body in order

2 to be able to assess a psychological situation. In other words, I did not

3 dissociate the physical from the psychological, and as an expert witness,

4 I can use the physical symptoms in order to present the consequences of

5 war. As a doctor, I have general knowledge on general medicine. In order

6 to become an MD, I had to learn about that and I had to be able to deal

7 with those facts.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get some clarification? From that

9 answer you gave, do I understand you correctly to be saying that in fact

10 the psychiatric conditions that you treat are induced by the physical

11 suffering that the people have gone through, some of them?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would therefore there be a relationship between

14 psychiatric or psychological assessment and the physical trauma that a

15 particular person may or may not have gone through? There is always that

16 kind of relationship?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you very much for

18 your question. Your question, as to whether there is an association --

19 and we are talking about trauma, it can be physical and psychological or

20 psychological, and it is perceived as an integrity and we deal with

21 integral consequences, bearing in mind which trauma was stronger, whether

22 the physical trauma was stronger or, alternatively, whether the

23 psychological trauma was stronger. Hence, the consequences will be

24 reflected.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand. But there are some physical

1 consequences. If I just look at some of the headings in your report,

2 there are headings that dealt with victims of incarceration or

3 consequences of incarceration, and then also displacement of people. Now,

4 displacement of people and incarceration, this is a physical experience,

5 and the psychiatric consequences or psychological consequences come after

6 that, after either incarceration or displacement?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Psychological

8 consequences are usually prolonged and appear within the first six months,

9 or a year at the latest.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That's a different question

11 or a question -- different issue. All I wanted to find out was whether

12 there was or was there not a relationship between the physical and the

13 psychiatric. Thank you very much.

14 You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Was your task also to establish, as a psychiatric expert, how many

17 displaced persons there were, to deal with statistics, to deal with the

18 1991 census and similar things? Was that part and parcel of your task?

19 A. Your Honours, when you are providing an expert report not of an

20 individual but of a group suffering certain consequences, you can either

21 do a case report and present it or you take a group of case reports and

22 provide a general view of the consequences. I took the latter approach.

23 I dealt with groups that suffered consequences, and I wanted to present

24 the situation by groups and to tell the Trial Chamber what are the groups

25 of persons that suffered traumatic experiences.

1 And the second part where my expert knowledge comes into play is

2 to show what the consequences were, in order to show the Trial Chamber

3 what the relationship is between the causes and the consequences.

4 Q. Do you have any knowledge whatsoever in statistics?

5 A. I have not used any statistical methods here, and nor was there

6 any need for me to do that.

7 Q. Do you have any experience in the legal shaping of statements and

8 testimonies so as to make them credible in a trial? Do you have any

9 experience as an investigative judge or an investigator?

10 A. No, Your Honours.

11 Q. We'll come back to that question a bit later.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we go back, we go on. I'm not quite sure I

13 understand the relevance of that question, Mr. Milovancevic. Why must

14 this witness necessarily have legal knowledge -- or experience in the

15 legal shaping of statements or testimonies or be an investigative judge or

16 an investigator? Now that we want to come back to the same question, I

17 think I'd like to understand the relevance of this question.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I'll come back to that question

19 later, but I can --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no. I have a prima facie view on this question

21 that it is not relevant, and I've got to make up my mind whether to allow

22 it or disallow it, and if I disallow it, then you're disallowed also in

23 the future from coming back to it, so I would like to understand now what

24 is the relevance of this question.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I'll tell you right away, Your

1 Honour. On page 2, in chapter 2 -- or paragraph 2, of his expert's report

2 in the Babic case, this is II, "The methodology of work with the victims

3 of war," before paragraph 3, the title is "The method of taking

4 statements," has a few goals, and the main ones are, number 1, research of

5 violations of international human rights conventions. The statement was

6 done as a legal document. In other words, this is the main

7 characteristics in the -- in this expert's report when it comes to his

8 work with victims. That's why I was curious to know, since the main task

9 of his work as a psychiatrist is the violation of human rights, I wanted

10 to know whether he has any legal knowledge, and since the statements were

11 done as legal documents, I wanted to know whether he's an investigating

12 judge or an investigator. But in principle, I wanted to know what his

13 goals were, and I still haven't tackled that. My initial question was

14 what his task was, what task was given by the Prosecutor as to what he was

15 supposed to do.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: All that long discussion and dissertation, you have

17 still not given me the relevance of the question that says, "Do you have

18 any experience in the legal shaping of statements?" What is the legal

19 shaping of statements, Mr. Milovancevic, number 1, and testimonies? And

20 whether -- and whether the witness has any experience as an investigative

21 judge or an investigator? You haven't told me what is the relevance of

22 that. Are you suggesting that this report that this witness has prepared

23 as a report for this Court, is not a legal document? And if it is not a

24 legal document, why would it be used in legal proceedings?

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, no.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: What are you suggesting?

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not suggesting that. Your

3 Honour, I'm just checking the educational background of the witness and

4 what his task was. He is here as a psychiatric expert, and I can see that

5 in his report he says that he was involved in the legal shaping of

6 documents. When he took statements from the victims, he shaped those

7 statements as legal documents and he studied the violation of

8 international conventions. And with this regard I asked him whether he is

9 an expert in law, whether he's familiar with the job of a judge or an

10 investigator, and this is a simple question. And my point is that if an

11 expert, in his report, says that the method of his work was based on

12 taking statements and shaping them as legal documents, I believe that my

13 question was well in order.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I didn't -- when you refer us to his report, I

15 didn't hear you use the phrase "shaping documents into legal documents."

16 In any case, so far as the witness's legal -- educational background is

17 concerned, I think it's mentioned in his CV. That question that you put,

18 namely the question that says, "Do you have any experience in the legal

19 shaping of estimates and testimonies so as to make them credible in a

20 trial? Do you have any experience as an investigative judge or an

21 investigator?" And unless and until you tell us the relevance of that

22 statement, or that question, that question is disallowed, and you may not

23 return to it. You may proceed.

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: We have gone past the time for breaking. It may

1 very well be a convenient time to take the break. And maybe you can come

2 back and carry on, Mr. Milovancevic. We'll take a short adjournment,

3 Witness. We'll come back at --

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- quarter to 6.00? Yes, come back at quarter to

6 6.00.

7 Court adjourned.

8 --- Recess taken at 5.19 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, on reflection, I'd like to ask

11 you a question, maybe just to understand what you meant by that statement.

12 There is probably a misunderstanding between the two of us on that

13 statement. Are you able to venture an explanation of what you mean by

14 that statement or why you asked the question in the manner in which you

15 asked it?

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I assume that

17 you're asking me about the situation with regard to the possible legal

18 knowledge of the expert witness. Is that the topic that you're coming

19 back to? I just want to see whether I understood you correctly. Thank

20 you.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I thought that it

23 would be important to establish the area that the expert engaged in.

24 Since it transpired from the examination-in-chief conducted by my learned

25 friend that he was dealing with statistics, the number of population,

1 establishing the number of refugees, expelled persons and the like, and in

2 my view, this does not fall within his area of interest or expertise.

3 He's not witnessing about any of that. He's not a fact witness and he's

4 not testifying about any of that. And when it comes to the methodology

5 that he applied in his work, I wanted to establish whether this had to do

6 with something that has to do with his profession or it goes beyond his

7 profession. If the expert is an expert on psychiatry, which we were able

8 to establish from his CV, I wanted to know whether he has any legal

9 knowledge, any legal education that is necessary for the job of an

10 investigator or an investigating judge.

11 When he explains the methodology that he applied as a

12 psychiatrist, he says in this chapter that the main objectives of taking

13 testimonies from the victims, the main goals that he had as a

14 psychiatrist, was "to research violations of international human rights

15 conventions - the statement was done as a legal document." And I quoted

16 the expert himself. If the expert, as a psychiatrist, works on the

17 violations of international human rights conventions and takes statements

18 from his patients who have psychological problems, and shapes his -- those

19 statements as legal documents, my question was whether he has any legal

20 training to do that, and that was the sense of my question.

21 I may have gone into great length just to prove that I did not

22 have any intention to provoke the witness. I just wanted to establish

23 what his area of expertise is and also what his educational background is.

24 In any case, I was satisfied with his answer when he said that he did not

25 have any legal knowledge and I was satisfied with that. We will come back

1 to his expert report during the course of the cross-examination. And this

2 is the gist of the whole thing.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The reason I'm coming back to the question is

4 simply because I said to you unless you give me the relevance of the

5 question, the question is disallowed, and you had indicated you were going

6 to come back to it. And obviously if you have legitimate reasons for

7 going back to it, it would be unfair for the Court to gag you, and then I

8 just want to get a clear understanding why the question was asked. Now,

9 again, I've tried to -- I want to understand what you are saying clearly.

10 Obviously, statistics are taken by statisticians and are put in the

11 proper --

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise for

13 the interruption. We are not receiving any interpretation into B/C/S of

14 your words. I apologise, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, let's check out the interpretation

16 before I proceed.

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Now it is okay. At least, I am

18 receiving the interpretation in my headphones.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

20 I was saying to you statistical information is put on the public

21 domain by statisticians for use by other members of the community,

22 including other professionals, so the fact that the witness uses

23 statistical information does not make him a statistician because he did

24 not compile the statistics. He went to the statistics that is already

25 compiled and used it for his purposes.

1 You now also refer to him investigating violations of human rights

2 or international human rights conventions. Once again, human rights

3 conventions are put there for people to observe, even people who are not

4 necessarily lawyers. That is why people who are not lawyers get arrested

5 and prosecuted if they break those conventions even though they are not

6 lawyers. Now, I'm not quite clear, but you say -- unless you say that in

7 those investigations of international human rights conventions, he makes

8 legal conclusions in his report, if that's what you're saying, then I

9 would understand you. Is that where you wanted to go?

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the answer would

11 be only partially affirmative. In what sense? I'm trying to establish in

12 my conversation with the witness what the essence of his job is as a

13 psychiatrist, as opposed to his job as an expert psychiatrist. As a

14 psychiatrist, he's a doctor who needs to help persons with certain health

15 problems, and if that is indeed the case, and in his report he did speak

16 about such people with such problems that were the result of a war trauma,

17 then his main job has to be the job of a psychiatrist rather than taking

18 statements and shaping them as legal documents, and I wanted to point

19 towards certain direction, but in order to avoid any confusion, I heard

20 your decision and I will not dwell upon this issue. If you wanted to know

21 whether I'm going to insist on this question, I would like to say that I

22 have to respect your decision and I was satisfied at the moment when the

23 witness confirmed to me that he did not have any legal knowledge, which is

24 also obvious from his CV.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that you had taken my decision but I

1 reopened the discussion because I reflected on what took place before we

2 went on the break and I want to make sure that the Chamber does not stop

3 you from asking questions which you may be legitimately entitled to ask.

4 This is the whole reason why I'm asking you the question. I want to be

5 sure if the Chamber says it disallows a question, it understood your

6 position clearly and that therefore the Chamber feels right in disallowing

7 the question. And if it doesn't feel right, then it must allow the

8 question. And hence I would like you to answer my question: Are you

9 saying in those investigations of international human rights violations,

10 is the witness making legal conclusions, in your view? If you say so,

11 then that's the end of my inquiry. In other words, what I'm saying to

12 you, Mr. Milovancevic, is are you saying, "Witness, why do you make legal

13 conclusions if you are not a lawyer?" Is that the trend of questioning

14 that you are going to follow? Or "If you make these legal conclusions,

15 are you claiming to be an investigative judge?" Or -- is that what you're

16 saying? And if that's what you're saying, then I understand exactly where

17 you're going.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm deeply

19 thankful to you for raising this issue again, and for sharing your

20 thoughts with me. What led me to put this question to the witness was --

21 I will put it in no uncertain terms now -- that his examination as a

22 psychiatrist was from the start directed at establishing international

23 human rights violations. In my belief, this cannot be his assignment. He

24 can assist a patient, decide on a given treatment, and then, as a result

25 of this, he can draw some conclusions on a given topic. Since here in his

1 capacity as an expert, it was his mission to establish violations of human

2 rights through his patients, in the context of what was Yugoslavia then,

3 which could, of course, have been tainted by his impartiality for one or

4 the other side. I wanted to show, by putting this question to him, that

5 the course he took, if indeed that was the course that he took, was wrong

6 and may have been open to impartiality. That was the basis for my

7 question.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are not sort of getting much further. The

9 Chamber will lift the disallowance of that question and will allow you to

10 ask the question, and it will stand, and you may come back to it later.

11 The Chamber will be listening very carefully to your questions when you

12 come back to it later to see whether they are permissible or not. Thank

13 you very much. You may proceed.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Loncar, in this trial, the Prosecution presented you as an

16 expert who provided his expert opinion in the case versus Milan Babic.

17 You looked at the document on the monitor and confirmed that Exhibit

18 number 8 was indeed your expert opinion given in the Babic case; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can we please have a look at number -- at page number 1 of the

22 expert report. I believe we have it on our monitors here.

23 On page 1, Mr. Loncar, there is the ERN number 654 in the top

24 right-hand corner, and the title is the Medical Centre for Human Rights.

25 On the basis of this first page, I cannot conclude that this is your

1 expert opinion given in the Babic case. You stated that you had given

2 your opinion on the request of both the Prosecution and the Defence.

3 Wouldn't you agree with me that the cover page should state: Expert

4 witness Mr. So-and-so, the expert report such and such, produced on the

5 request of the Defence and Prosecution in the Babic case? Don't you agree

6 with me? And we can't see anything of the sort here.

7 A. Well, I don't know what the practice before this Tribunal is, what

8 the legal procedure is.

9 Q. Could we please take a look at --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Milovancevic please repeat the number

11 of the page he mentioned.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, will you please repeat the number

13 of the page you mentioned.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on the monitor, we

15 can see the page which has the last digits 654, and it's in the B/C/S, and

16 we can see that this is chapter 1, the Medical Centre for Human Rights. I

17 hope that this is the case in the English version as well, rather, that

18 this is the first page of what is purported to be this expert's report in

19 the Babic case.

20 I would kindly ask the registrar to show us the last page. In the

21 B/C/S it bears the last three -- the number 677 as the last three digits.

22 I don't know what the page number in English is.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic. When I

24 asked you to please repeat the number of the page you mentioned, it's

25 because at page 70 of the transcript, line 7, 18.08 to 10, you said,

1 "Could we please take a look at ..." and then the interpreter didn't hear

2 what you said so it was not interpreted, and that is that page that I'm

3 referring to, if it is a page. Or if it's a document, tell us. Can you

4 finish that sentence, that's all I'm asking. The interpreter wants you to

5 -- wants to hear that.

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I talked of page 1, which has

7 the title, "The Medical Centre for Human Rights" and the ERN number is

8 03526654. I believe we have cleared this up and now I would like us to

9 take a look at the last page of the document. The page in the B/C/S bears

10 the number 03526677. This is the document we received from the OTP. We

11 are looking at the last page. Could we take a look at the one page before

12 that one, the penultimate page, bearing the number ending in 76.

13 Q. Is this the penultimate page of your report for the Babic case,

14 sir?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. We briefly took a look at the last page, which did not bear the

17 reference of the case, the date, your name, your signature, or anything of

18 the sort. On what basis should we identify this document, which was

19 identified as Exhibit 8, as your expert report in the Babic case? This

20 could be a press clipping. I mean no offence but I want to tell you that

21 we don't have a single element identifying your report. Can I ask you,

22 when was it that you produced this report for the Babic case?

23 A. I produced it on the request of the Prosecutor's office, Your

24 Honour, several years ago, when the trial proceedings against Mr. Babic

25 were conducted here. I produced it several months ahead of trial, on the

1 request of the OTP, and that is what it is, an expert report on victims.

2 Q. We have so far been able to see several expert findings, several

3 expert reports, and they always bore the name of the author, Jozef Poje's

4 expert report, Mr. Grujic's expert report, and so on and so forth. You

5 are the next expert in line, but we don't have either a cover page or a

6 date of production of the report, and so on and so forth. How can we

7 identify this as a report of yours that you submitted before this

8 Tribunal?

9 A. Your Honour, I repeat, I produced the report on the request of

10 both the Defence and the Prosecution. I filed it before the Trial

11 Chamber, and I defended my report in cross-examination in the case against

12 Mr. Babic.

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated].

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Milovancevic, please.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, your microphone is off.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Thank you, Your

17 Honour.

18 Q. This expert report of yours, drafted for the Babic case, did it

19 have anything preceding this page 1, like, for instance, an introduction,

20 your CV, or, for instance, an explanation to the effect that this is the

21 result of a request of the OTP or the Tribunal; anything that would

22 identify it as yours?

23 A. Well, in addition to this document, there was another document,

24 which was my CV, attached to it. There was another document, which was

25 the written request from the Prosecution.

1 Q. Was the written request of the Prosecution a component part of

2 your expert report?

3 A. No. As far as I know, it wasn't. The Prosecution told me to

4 write an expert opinion of mine, and I did that. I repeat: Several years

5 ago, I expounded my report before the Tribunal.

6 Q. You're telling us now that the expert report we have before us

7 here is the expert report you produced in the Babic case on the request of

8 the OTP?

9 A. Yes. On the request of the OTP and in agreement with the Defence

10 in that case, as far as I can remember.

11 Q. You see, we would find it very important to see what sort of

12 request the Prosecution provided, in contrast to the one provided by the

13 Defence. For instance, we don't have the date of the report, we don't

14 have the author of the report. Can you assist us in this matter?

15 A. Well, for that matter, you will have to inquire with the

16 Prosecution.

17 Q. I will tell you now why I put the question to you. Mr. Babic, as

18 an accused, was outside the UNDU building in a private home, as designated

19 by the Tribunal, between the 1st of December 2000 and -- 2003, and the

20 29th of June, 2004. During this period, he made a plea agreement with the

21 Prosecution and it was apparently during this time that you produced your

22 report. Did you see Mr. Babic at all?

23 A. No. I only had contacts with his Defence. As for the facts

24 concerning Mr. Babic's whereabouts and what he was doing, I don't know.

25 Q. What did his Defence tell you? Did they give you their

1 assignment, and what was it?

2 A. I did not receive any assignment from the Defence. They received

3 the document, and during cross-examination, they put one or two questions

4 to me.

5 Q. I'm going to ask you the following: A moment ago, in response to

6 my question, you stated that you produced the report on the request of the

7 Prosecution. Answering further to my questions you also said that this

8 was the request of the Defence. And now, in response to my third

9 question, you explained that the Defence counsel did not tell you anything

10 about their requests for the report, and I'd like to know what the

11 situation is.

12 MS. VALABHJI: [Previous translation continues] ... this is not

13 what the transcript says. And in his response, it says: "On the request

14 of the OTP and in agreement with the Defence in that case, as far as I can

15 remember."

16 If I could also provide some more information, Your Honour, in the

17 trial judgement in the Babic case, the Trial Chamber pointed out that

18 Dr. Loncar, who was called by both parties, testified about his dealings

19 with a large number of war victims. This is in paragraph 52 of the

20 sentencing judgement at the trial stage in the Babic case.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't understand

23 the story that has to do with the sentencing in the Babic case. I'm

24 trying to identify the task that was given to this man, who gave him that

25 task, and whether this was a joint task of the Prosecution and the

1 Defence, or maybe it was a -- something else. I don't know and it doesn't

2 transpire from the exhibit. And the exhibit was offered to us as a joint

3 task given to the expert by the Prosecution and the Defence in the Babic

4 case. However, all this does not transpire from the document before us or

5 from the answers given so far by the witness, and I don't know why my

6 learned friend objects to any of this.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your learned friend was objecting to your

8 characterisation of some of the instructions from the Defence, and she was

9 saying that even the Babic judgement identified the report, the witness's

10 report, as one generated at the request of the Prosecution and the

11 Defence. Be that as it may, I think you have made your point. The only

12 problem that I now have is that you're asking the same questions over and

13 over again and it doesn't make the question any stronger to ask it a

14 second and a third and a fourth time. If you have made it, you've made

15 it, and you can rest assured we've heard it. If you can move on to the

16 next point.

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Just a brief question, sir: When you said that Mr. Miller gave

19 -- didn't tell you anything before you embarked on drafting the report -

20 and Mr. Miller was Mr. Babic's Defence lawyer, as far as I know - was that

21 something that said to you that he also wanted to have this report?

22 A. What was said to me by the OTP, and as far as I could understand

23 it, and it was quite some time ago, was that this was a joint agreement

24 between the Prosecution and the Defence.

25 Q. Thank you. Let us move on to another subject. The OTP has

1 provided us with a statement of yours, a witness statement, by Mladen

2 Loncar, with your personal data, the date of birth, the place of birth,

3 the ethnic background, father's name, and it says that you gave that

4 statement on the 25th and 26th October, 2005. This is a statement in

5 which you spoke about Doljani in Jablanica municipality. Can you tell me,

6 what has that got to do with anything that we are talking about here?

7 A. I don't mention that in my expert report here.

8 Q. In that statement of yours, you speak about Croatian victims, and

9 the perpetrators of the crimes were Muslims, the Muslim forces; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. Since we don't know where you were born and when, what your

13 father's name is, what your ethnic background or religious affiliation

14 are, let's clarify one thing: The data in that other statement, are they

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When it comes to your CV, in answering my learned friend's

18 question, you stated that you graduated in 1987. When did you start

19 studying and where?

20 A. I started studying in Novi Sad, and that's where I graduated.

21 Q. In answering my learned friend's question, you also told us that

22 you were born in Bosnia in a small place there, and that at the age of 1

23 you moved to Ilok, which is a place in Croatia on the very border with

24 Serbia; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, it is.

1 Q. When did you leave for Novi Sad to continue education? Was it

2 before the university or even before that?

3 A. Before that, I was in Osijek, that's where I attended school. I

4 went to the secondary school there.

5 Q. You are a Croat, that's your ethnic background, and in 1981 you

6 moved to Serbia, to Vojvodina, that is, and in Novi Sad you were a medical

7 student and you graduated in 1987. This is all correct?

8 A. Yes, it is, Your Honours. Before Milosevic came into power,

9 Vojvodina was a beautiful province in Serbia where about 22 different

10 ethnic groups lived happily together, which was often emphasised in the

11 former Yugoslavia.

12 Q. And you graduated from the medical school without any problems,

13 you were not discriminated on any grounds?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. In your CV you say that in 1988 to 1991, you specialised in

16 neuropsychiatry at the Institute for Neurology, Psychiatry and Mental

17 Health of the medical school in Novi Sad and that this specialisation was

18 interrupted by the war. When did this happen? When were you interrupted

19 in your specialisation? What war was the cause of that?

20 A. This was towards the end of September and beginning of October.

21 This is when I was arrested.

22 Q. So you were detained either in September or October and you

23 established a link between that and the beginning of war?

24 A. I don't know the -- why I was arrested, but when this happened I

25 asked from the then authorities that had arrested me that I should be

1 tried if I did something wrong, and then they told me that there were no

2 elements for any trial and that I would be transferred to a camp.

3 Q. This residency that lasted between 1988 and 1991 until the moment

4 you were arrested followed a normal course. There was nothing out of the

5 ordinary with that, and the fact that you had to stop your residency

6 during the war was the arrest. Who were you arrested by?

7 A. It was the province MUP. At that time it was known as SUP, as far

8 as I remember.

9 Q. In other words, towards the end of September or beginning of

10 October, you were -- 1991, you were arrested by the MUP of Serbia. Where

11 did this happen?

12 A. It happened in a parking lot.

13 Q. Where was that; in what town?

14 A. It was in Novi Sad, Your Honours.

15 Q. At the time, you were on the way back from somewhere. Where were

16 you before that?

17 A. Your Honours, if you'll allow me, I have to provide a somewhat

18 lengthy answer to this question.

19 Q. Go ahead.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are allowed.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the Defence counsel has just

22 said, I grew up in Ilok, which is on the border itself, the border between

23 Croatia and Vojvodina; i.e., Serbia. The distance from Ilok to Novi Sad

24 is about 40 kilometres or half an hour's drive by car. There were no

25 problems there whatsoever, until 1991, when the war started and the

1 easternmost part of Croatia bordering on Vojvodina or Serbia was cut off

2 from the rest of Croatia. The first territorial medical centre that had

3 been established under the then prevailing laws was the hospital in

4 Vukovar. There was heavy fighting going on in the area of Vukovar and

5 neighbouring villages, and an attack was launched from the

6 Sid-Tovarnik-Vukovar axis towards Ilok. The then Yugoslav People's Army

7 and the Territorial Defence started occupying one village after another,

8 all of them inhabited by a majority Croatian population. Sometime towards

9 the end of September, beginning of October, the population of Ilok had

10 doubled, or even trebled in that small town, and refugees from the

11 neighbouring villages moved into it. A group of refugees arrived in Ilok,

12 and I remember a man who had survived the execution in Tovarnik. Other

13 refugees brought him to Ilok, and this was the beginning of a humanitarian

14 crisis in this small town which was two or three times bigger than

15 normally, with all the refugees that had arrived there. There was a lack

16 of medical supplies and medicines that were indispensable. Amongst other

17 things, there were no medicines for children. There was at least one

18 child who was on anti-epileptics. This is an indispensable drug that has

19 to be taken continuously. Among those refugees, there was also a lot of

20 wounded civilians who had arrived, and at that moment, I, as a doctor, did

21 what I had to do and what I would always do, regardless of who is in

22 question: I went to buy some drugs, and the only road that was open was

23 the bridge towards Vojvodina, towards Novi Sad. That's where I went to

24 buy some medicines. I went to a pharmacy, I bought the medicines, and on

25 the way back I was arrested in the parking lot and the people who arrested

1 me were MUP members.

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You have provided us with a great detail, describing this period

4 of time. You're talking about the end of September, beginning of October,

5 1991?

6 A. Yes. I believe that this was on the 1st of October, as far as I

7 can remember. But I must say it was some time ago and I would not dare

8 say that this is the exact date but thereabouts.

9 Q. Thank you very much. My question was not aimed at establishing

10 the exact date. This is not relevant for this part of your testimony. In

11 any case, thank you very much for providing me with all the details. You

12 said that there was war going on around Vukovar, and with this regard I

13 would like to say that on the 26th of June, 1991, five months before that,

14 Croatia had proclaimed its independence from Yugoslavia; is that correct?

15 A. I must say that I really don't know. I don't know when this

16 happened. But as far as I know, this was an internationally recognised

17 fact and this was in 1992. At that time, the relevant time, we were still

18 part of the joint state.

19 Q. You said "we were part of the joint state." Who is "we" that

20 you're referring to?

21 A. When I say "we" I mean the Republic of Croatia and the Republic of

22 Serbia; i.e., the province of Vojvodina.

23 Q. And who was it that waged war in Croatia in September and October,

24 1991? Whose forces against whose forces?

25 A. As far as I know at the moment - I'm not a lawyer, as you know -

1 but as a human being, what I heard at the moment was there were heavy

2 attacks, there was shelling of Vukovar, the earth was trembling, and

3 during the night it was like fireworks, and the arms --

4 Q. I apologise. Can you be a bit more concise? We are very limited

5 here. I didn't want you to describe the nights in any town of Croatia

6 during fighting. Could you just tell me who the warring parties were in

7 Croatia at the time? Who was fighting whom, if you can? If you can't,

8 just tell us you don't know.

9 A. What I do know and I am willing to tell you is that the town of

10 Vukovar was defending itself from the attacks by the army and paramilitary

11 formations. As far as I know. I was not in the area, so it's very

12 difficult for me to say.

13 Q. You're saying that Vukovar was defending itself from the attacks

14 by the army. Who was it who defended Vukovar?

15 A. I don't know. I wasn't there. It's very difficult for me to talk

16 about it.

17 Q. You've told us one thing now and that is during the time when

18 Croatia was still a part of Yugoslavia, you say we were part of

19 Yugoslavia, the federal army waged a war against somebody who was

20 defending itself from the federal army. Who is it that the federal army

21 was attacking in its own state in 1991? I'm not asking you to answer

22 that, I want to know something else: You said there was a lot of refugees

23 and you say that until the moment you were arrested, you were doing your

24 post-graduate studies in Novi Sad. Are you -- did you go from Novi Sad to

25 Ilok to see what was going on? When did you do that? And then you

1 learned that you had to buy medicines. This is what I would like to know.

2 A. Your Honours, at that moment, I was on annual leave. I was

3 staying with my parents, with my family, and during my annual leave, the

4 refugees came, and that's when I decided to go and buy some medicines.

5 Q. You know when Croatia was recognised in 1992, but do you know that

6 Croatia proclaimed its secession from Yugoslavia and that's why the war

7 started?

8 A. I know that there was a referendum, but I don't know when, what

9 happened, what the legal action was. I really don't know what happened.

10 Q. We had a witness here who spoke about those events, but let me ask

11 you this: From Ilok, from Croatia, in -- where your parents resided, from

12 the Croatia that had proclaimed its secession from Yugoslavia, it held its

13 referendum, later on was recognised, you returned to Novi Sad, to Serbia,

14 to buy medicines and to bring them back to Croatia, and in such a

15 situation you were arrested by members of the Ministry of the Interior of

16 Serbia; is that correct?

17 A. Again, Your Honours, I would like to provide an answer to this

18 question in the following way: At that moment, there were no barriers,

19 there were no borders, there were no customs offices, and I --

20 Mr. Milosevic had introduced an embargo on the import of products from

21 Slovenia, and I also bought --

22 Q. Sir, you're wasting my time. My question to you was as follows:

23 You were in Croatia which had proclaimed its secession from Yugoslavia.

24 It was in the state of war. You went to Serbia to buy drugs and then you

25 were arrested by the police; is that correct?

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. Were you charged with buying medical supplies for the enemy in the

3 war, the other side in the war, where you intended to take those

4 materials? Were you charged with that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Were you charged with having stolen those medical supplies in the

7 medical centre where you worked at the time?

8 A. No. If I may, Your Honour, I can tell you what the charges were,

9 actually what they were questioning me about.

10 Q. Go ahead, sir. You may do that.

11 A. When I was arrested, they started questioning me about the

12 military structures and forces, and I didn't have a clue about all that,

13 because in Ilok, at that moment, there were only refugees and expelled

14 persons, and this is what they wanted to know, all they wanted to know

15 from me.

16 Q. You state that you were arrested in late October, early November.

17 Before that, in this non-democratic Vojvodina, as you explained it was

18 because of Milosevic's rule, you established a Croatian party and you were

19 a member of its leadership; isn't that correct? When did this take place?

20 A. Your Honour, I did not set up a party. Rather, I set up a branch

21 office of a party. This took place in 1990, after the democratic change,

22 when a multi-party system was introduced, and when political parties were

23 being set up. I decided to set up a branch office in Novi Sad, and the

24 sole aim was to organise the national minority and develop the cultural

25 institutions of the minority. Literally speaking, in this Vojvodina,

1 which was a multi-ethnic community, ethnically tolerant, we wanted to have

2 the Croatian national minority develop and strive -- and thrive as such.

3 Q. Therefore, in Vojvodina, you set up a party in 1991. What was the

4 name of the party?

5 A. I'm sorry, I didn't establish a party.

6 Q. Sorry. The branch office.

7 A. The party was called the Democratic Alliance of Croats in

8 Vojvodina. The party was already in existence.

9 Q. Therefore, you stated that it was in early 1990, at the time of

10 democratic change and the introduction of a multi-party system, you set up

11 a party belonging to the Croatian national minority in Vojvodina, which I

12 have no problem with. Do you know who was the president of Serbia at the

13 time? Was it Mr. Milosevic?

14 A. Again, I did not set up a political party but, rather, its branch

15 office.

16 Q. I'm sorry, Witness. I made the same mistake for the third time.

17 I apologise.

18 At the time, in a multi-ethnic Vojvodina, where there were many

19 national minorities and there were many political parties, you set up a

20 branch office of this national minority's party. Where was its seat?

21 A. In Novi Sad.

22 Q. And what were you there?

23 A. I was the head of the branch office.

24 Q. And do you consider the conditions for the establishment of branch

25 office as non-democratic and unfriendly? Was Mr. Milosevic president of

1 Serbia at the time?

2 A. I believe he was.

3 Q. You told us that after your arrest, you ended up in a centre

4 which is called Begejci. Who ran the centre and what sort of a centre was

5 it?

6 A. I have to say first that before that I was taken to another centre

7 which was called Paragovo, which was held by the JNA at the time. After

8 that, I was transferred to the Begejci camp.

9 Q. Who ran this Begejci camp, and how long were you there?

10 A. The camp was ran by the JNA, at least formally, according to what

11 it said, but it was manned by members of the MUP from Serbia. I believe I

12 spent a bit over a month in this camp.

13 Q. Did I understand you well, am I right in saying that the Begejci

14 camp was an institution run by the Yugoslav People's Army? Is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In 1991, when Croatia was part of Yugoslavia, the JNA was the

18 federal armed force, was it not?

19 A. As far as I know, yes, it was.

20 Q. You authored several reports and studies, some of them are even

21 included in your CV, where you state that you were in the Serb camp of

22 Begejci. How can an institution under the jurisdiction of the JNA be

23 called a Serb camp, as you call it, or do you have something against

24 Serbs?

25 A. Your Honours, I want to clarify any imputations to me. I have

1 many friends among the Serbs. The fact of the matter is at the time when

2 I was brought to the camp, which had all the attributes of a concentration

3 camp - I did write about that - there were mostly civilians there, the

4 elderly, the infirm and children, and I don't know whose enemies they

5 could have been. They were elderly people, above 70 years of age.

6 Q. In addition to the Begejci camp, you mentioned the Sremska

7 Mitrovica camp and the one at Stajici [phoen]. Are you familiar with

8 those?

9 A. Yes. I learned about these camps from victims, and I wrote about

10 them.

11 Q. You see, you call all of these institutions camps. You even go so

12 far as to say that they were concentration camps, whereas the Amnesty

13 International report dated March, 1992, for Yugoslavia, speaks of JNA

14 camps, or even JNA centres at Stajicevo, Begejci, and about the prison at

15 Sremska Mitrovica. Do you draw any distinctions between the collection

16 centre, temporary centre, and prison, and a concentration camp on the

17 other?

18 A. Of course I do, Your Honours.

19 Q. Perhaps we should break for the day -- oh, no we still have 15

20 minutes left. I was mistaken. Please carry on.

21 A. After I was brought to this collection centre, as you call it, and

22 on the basis of what I knew about human rights and the international norms

23 related to human rights - and this was part of my general knowledge, I

24 didn't have any legal training - you can call it whatever you like, but

25 this was the sort of camp where civilians were brought to without any

1 charges having been brought against them, without any convictions passed,

2 only because on some basis they were different from others. They were

3 brought over from Croatia. Now that you mentioned secession - I'm using

4 your term, the term that you used - I got there before the JNA took

5 Vukovar, seized Vukovar, and the guards who were there said, as far as we

6 were able to hear, that the camp's main purpose was to bring over

7 Ustashas, as they put it, from Vukovar. I don't know what sort of army it

8 was, whether it was really a people's army. It used to be, unfortunately,

9 but that's why I called those camps as concentration camps, because people

10 brought over there were brought there only because their affiliations lay

11 elsewhere or because they were members of different ethnicities, although

12 among them there were also Serbs who, for one or -- reason or the other

13 did not wish to embrace such ideas. As a result, I can say that the camp

14 was, as far as I was able to see at the time, mostly populated with

15 citizens from Croatia, although there were people brought over from other

16 republics, which were not engaged in any fighting, as far as I know, and

17 all the inmates were subjected to the same type of torture. None of us

18 were ever part of any legal proceedings. We didn't know the charges

19 against us, if any, and that's about it.

20 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Before you go on, Mr. Milovancevic. You had

21 said before, Doctor, that the camps had the characteristics, all the

22 characteristics of a concentration camp. Now, other than the features

23 which you referred to immediately in your evidence concerning why you say

24 it is a concentration-type camp, do you have any other characteristics

25 other than those characteristics which would have identified them to you

1 as concentration camps?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the reasons why I

3 characterised the camp as such are as follows: As according to their

4 structure, these camps were set up like the concentration camps I was able

5 to see from World War II. The camps had two rings of barbed wire around

6 them, between the two rings of barbed wire, the Alsatian German shepherd

7 dogs were placed. There were armed guards there, and in the inner ring,

8 the inner ring was manned by the camp staff.

9 Now, the second reason I called it that way was that the inmates

10 were mostly civilians of an advanced age. In my assessment there were

11 about 500 to 600 of us. We were all housed in one barn, lying on the bare

12 floor, on the concrete ground, which only had some straw strewn about it.

13 In Vojvodina, temperatures at the time would go below ten degrees Celsius

14 below zero.

15 The third reason why I characterised the camps as concentration

16 camps was that the people were taken there without any prior convictions,

17 merely -- it was merely driven by the will of the law enforcement agency.

18 People were taken there against their own will.

19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And another thing, Your Honour --

21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well. Go on.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One other feature was that there was

23 systematic torture applied. There were every day beatings, starvation,

24 groups of people were taken out without ever having been taken back, and

25 later on it turned out that they were executed. These were the reasons,

1 Your Honour, why I characterised these venues as concentration camps. I'm

2 not a lawyer, but based on my general knowledge, I feel free enough to

3 describe them as such.

4 One more sentence, Your Honours: There were women there. I

5 believe that there were about 30 of them. From conversations with these

6 women later on, I knew that many of them were victims of rape and had gone

7 through horrific torture.

8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] May I proceed, Your Honour?

10 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Yes, please do.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. In connection with the explanation you gave the Honourable Judge

13 Nosworthy, do you know what the general definition of a concentration camp

14 is? Simply the fascist factory of death, where millions of people ended

15 up. And do you know that the only concentration camp with such hallmarks,

16 and even worse ones, existed only in the Republic of Croatia, at

17 Jasenovac, where 700.000 people were killed. Their throats were slit. Do

18 you distinguish between such different types of institutions or are you

19 simply taking concentration camps in -- not seriously? Do you know that

20 there were only 500 people in -- that the camp was disbanded in late 1991,

21 according to one person's report?

22 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honour, I would object. I think the witness

23 has been asked the question as to what his -- what he meant and he

24 answered it. He answered what he meant by the use of the term.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have just

2 suggested to the witness, who should know that because he's an educated

3 man, what the real meaning of the term "concentration camp" is. The

4 explanation provided to the Trial Chamber is just mockery, mocking the

5 Jewish victims and other victims of real concentration camps. 500 people

6 in an improvised camp that the Amnesty International describes in 1992, he

7 believes that this was a concentration camp, and I just wanted to know

8 whether he made any distinction, and that's what I based my question on.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, Mr. Milovancevic, I think the question you

10 had asked the witness, and he gave -- actually, you didn't ask the

11 question, Judge Nosworthy asked the question, and the witness gave a very

12 lengthy explanation of what made him characterise those camps as

13 concentration camps. You either believe him or you don't believe him.

14 And if you don't believe him, you tell him why you don't believe him.

15 But I think to suggest that his answer is a mockery and a mocking

16 of the Jewish victims. He has hardly said a word about Jewish victims. I

17 think you're taking it very far, Mr. Milovancevic. The fact that he's an

18 educated person doesn't mean he's a know-all, but he's given his

19 explanation to the best of his ability, and you stay within that and

20 accept it or tell him that you don't believe him if you don't believe him.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I accept your suggestion, Your

22 Honour, and thank you for your instruction. I shall withdraw the last

23 part of my question and I'm going to ask Mr. Loncar the following.

24 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the term "concentration camp" was

25 something that was used for fascist factories of death, that were used for

1 the systematic daily extermination of hundreds of thousands of people? Do

2 you know that, sir?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. Milovancevic, I'm going to have to

4 disallow that question. The witness has told you, or has told the Chamber

5 what he understood the camps that he described as concentration camps to

6 be, and he said he understood them to be like that because of the

7 characteristics that he gave us. Now, once you start talking of fascists

8 and you are going into history which is not part of this case, which is

9 not before this case, and I think you are bringing in very emotional

10 characterisations of the issues here, and I would expect you, as an

11 officer of the Court, to keep your cool and ask questions. Now, this --

12 ask questions and stop making suggestions to the witness.

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. You said that a majority of the people in the Begejci camp, in the

17 camp under the control of the JNA, were Croats. Do you have any knowledge

18 as to the fact that during the year 1991, there had been an armed

19 rebellion in Croatia? The Prosecution witness Maksic testified to that.

20 This armed rebellion involved a lot of Croats against the federal state.

21 Do you know anything about that?

22 A. I don't have any knowledge about that in the way your question has

23 been worded. I would not know anything about that.

24 Q. You've told us that Vukovar and other places in Croatia were

25 defending themselves against a federal army. Who was involved in that

1 defence; Croatian army, civilians, who?

2 A. There is a major difference between defending oneself and being

3 engaged in a rebellion, and I get your point. What happened in Vukovar

4 was defence. Vukovar was defending itself.

5 Q. You've explained that in Croatia in 1991, there was fighting and

6 is there any doubt that there were two sides to that fighting? One side

7 was the armed forces of Yugoslavia and the other side the Croatian

8 authorities with its armed formations and the population of Croatia? Do

9 you doubt that? Is there anything in dispute about that in your mind?

10 A. Partially, yes. The way you are wording your questions, I'm

11 tempted to say that partially you're not right.

12 Q. Can you explain?

13 A. Can you be -- repeat your question? And what is it that you're

14 asking me exactly?

15 Q. I apologise. It was not my intention not to be clear, however, my

16 intention backfired.

17 In Croatia -- in the territory of Croatia, in 1991, was there a

18 conflict between the federal armed forces and the Croatian armed forces of

19 the new Croatian state?

20 A. Yes. There was fighting.

21 Q. Thank you. Were there any people taken prisoner during those

22 fightings?

23 A. I suppose so.

24 Q. The new armed forces comprised of Croats, mostly of Croats?

25 A. This makes sense.

1 Q. Will it then make sense that the prisoners from the new ranks of

2 Croatian army were also Croats?

3 A. Your logic is partly okay but the other part is not okay, because

4 there were civilians. What did they have to do with the army? What does

5 a grandmother aged 80, or a child, have to do with that? Why were they in

6 the camp?

7 Q. We will establish that tomorrow.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that we

9 have reached the end of the day. I would like to thank you for your

10 patience.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic. The Court will

12 adjourn and we will resume tomorrow afternoon at quarter past 2.00. The

13 Court will adjourn now.

14 Court adjourned.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of June,

17 2006, at 2.15 p.m.

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