Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6872

1 Tuesday, 22 August 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, as always, I'm going to remind you

7 that you are still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of

8 your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the

9 truth. Do you remember?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS MM-096 [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Examination by Mr. Milovancevic: [Continued]

17 Q. Good morning, Witness.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. We are about to resume your examination-in-chief. Once again, I

20 have to ask you that we both try not to overlap. Furthermore, it would be

21 useful as far as possible to take into account the protective measures you

22 were granted, especially in terms of your position, your job at the time,

23 or anything else that might reveal your identity as a protected witness.

24 Whenever necessary, we shall be going into private session.

25 (redacted)

Page 6873

1 (redacted)

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid we'll need to redact

3 this question. I just warned the witness and I was the first transgressor

4 today. My apologies.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It happens to the best of us, Mr. Milovancevic.

6 Okay. Can we please redact line 25 of page 1 and line 1 of page 2.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your

8 Honour.

9 Q. Yesterday we talked about your arrival in the public security

10 station in Benkovac early in April 1991. You described the situation on

11 the ground as a war. Do you remember that?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Do you know when the decision was taken to send in the blue

14 helmets, I mean UN troops, to the former Yugoslavia, the force usually

15 referred to as UNPROFOR?

16 A. I can't remember the specific date when the decision was adopted

17 by the UN Security Council, when the decision was adopted to send

18 peacekeeping troops to the former Yugoslavia. I do know, however, that

19 these units comprised a military component as well as a number of civilian

20 police. They arrived sometime early in April 1992.

21 Q. Thank you. Do you perhaps know what the basic condition was for

22 UN deployment in the area? What sort of situation on the ground did that

23 require for the UN troops to arrive?

24 A. As far as I remember, the principal condition for the arrival of

25 the UN troops was a cease-fire between the warring parties. That is the

Page 6874

1 JNA and the Croatian army.

2 Q. Do you know anything about how the clashes continued? Who was

3 attacking whom? You said there was a war on. Obviously there were

4 clashes. So, in short, who was attacking whom?

5 A. At the time I arrived in Benkovac municipality and just after,

6 which means sometime in April and May 1992, positions were attacked that

7 were being held by the JNA. These positions were being attacked by the

8 Croatian army. I'm talking about positions around Zemunik airport, Kotik

9 [phoen], Babin Dub and several other elevations in the area.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just interrupt a little bit,

11 Mr. Milovancevic?

12 Sorry, Witness, is your headphone okay? Can you hear well?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I can. Thank you very

14 much, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 You may proceed.

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. You have described the situation you found when you arrived in the

19 Benkovac public security station. You say the situation was difficult.

20 Can you provide more detail? Can you describe more specifically the

21 situation you found in the station or in the area covered by that police

22 station?

23 A. When I said the situation in the station itself as well as in

24 Benkovac municipality was difficult, first and foremost what I had in mind

25 was the situation concerning daily combat throughout the municipality.

Page 6875

1 Settled areas were being shelled as well as the town of Benkovac itself.

2 What made the situation even more difficult was the large number of

3 refugees who found refuge in Benkovac municipality.

4 Q. Can you tell us who it was that was shelling the settled areas and

5 which refugees are you talking about?

6 A. The shelling of the town of Benkovac itself and those settled

7 areas was being done by the Croatian army. As for the refugees, those

8 were Serbs who fled from a range of coastal towns, Zadar, Biograd, the

9 area around Biograd, where a great number of Serbs used to live, but now

10 in 1991 and 1992, they fled to Benkovac municipality.

11 Q. Who had been chief of the Benkovac public security station prior

12 to your arrival? Is this something you remember?

13 A. Bosko Drazic.

14 Q. Can we please go into private session for a moment, Your Honour,

15 due to the nature of some of the questions to follow?

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6876











11 Pages 6876-6877 redacted. Private session.















Page 6878

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. In one of your previous --

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, I think I'm going too

9 fast.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are already in open session.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

12 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic. You may proceed.

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. In one of your previous answers, Witness, you said that sometime

15 around April or May the UN troops arrived as well as a number of UN

16 civilian police. Did that bring about any changes in the way the public

17 security station in Benkovac was organised, was structured, in the work of

18 the local SUP, the Krajina SUP?

19 A. More throughout May and June 1992. That was when the military

20 component of the UN started deploying with greater intensity and the

21 clashes abated. The civilian police had just reorganised in Benkovac

22 itself somewhat earlier. We then started to work with them, especially

23 with the civilian police, since due to the nature of our work we had

24 closer ties with them, whereas the military was cooperating more with the

25 military component of the UN troops.

Page 6879

1 Q. You said that it was for the most part in May and June that the UN

2 troops deployed in the area. What's happening to the JNA at this time?

3 A. Well, at that time, the decision was made for the Yugoslav

4 People's Army to withdraw towards the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

5 from there, to go on withdrawing to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

6 That meant that all active-duty troops who were not natives of Croatia

7 were leaving, together with a great number of officers who were not

8 natives of Croatia. All of them would be leaving the area, taking with

9 them the greatest part of the military equipment and materiel, the

10 logistical support and documentation.

11 Q. Do you know what was going on with the weapons of the Territorial

12 Defence of the SAO Krajina, which had by then become the Republic of

13 Serbian Krajina?

14 A. At that time, the remaining weapons were being removed from the

15 positions and placed in depots and military installations that already

16 existed by that time, and they were placed under so-called double key,

17 under the supervision of the United Nations.

18 Q. The arrival of the UNPROFOR, of the blue helmets, did it

19 automatically mean an end to the war?

20 A. Like all the citizens of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, I too

21 hoped that the arrival of UN troops would bring peace to the area and a

22 resolution of the political situation but that didn't happen. Raids,

23 clashes, skirmishes continued, and we could say the aggression against

24 that territory known already as the Republic of Serbian Krajina continued.

25 Q. Can you tell us of an instance of aggression that you are familiar

Page 6880

1 with in 1992?

2 A. Although it did not happen in the area that I was directly

3 responsible for, it happened in an adjacent area, the municipality of

4 Drnis. The Croatian army raided a UN protected area, UNPA, called the

5 Miljevac plateau, just next to Benkovac municipality. They raided that

6 municipality, captured a certain territory, and in that operation they

7 killed around 50 members of the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

8 Q. In that situation, when UN troops called UNPROFOR had already been

9 deployed together with the civilian police, what was the relationship

10 between your public security station and the police of the RSK, on the one

11 hand, to the UNPROFOR and the civilian police of the UN?

12 A. With the CIVPOL and the UNPROFOR, our relations were good, they

13 were welcomed very cordially, and we expected their assistance and help in

14 ending the war and we also expected their protection from the Croatian

15 army. At any rate, we expected an end to the war and a solution for the

16 whole situation. The UNPROFOR was made up of parts of the French

17 Battalion and the Kenyan Battalion, whereas members of the CIVPOL were of

18 various nationalities but most of them at the time were from Norway.

19 Q. The Vance Plan, on the basis of which UN troops were deployed in

20 that area, did it envisage some sort of cooperation between the local

21 police and the civilian police of the United Nations?

22 A. Of course it did. It envisaged cooperation in regulating the

23 situation, protecting the whole population, supervision of the whole

24 territory, patrolling, all these were supposed to be joint activities.

25 Q. Can you tell us about your area, the area of Benkovac

Page 6881

1 municipality? How good was the cooperation of your local police with the

2 civilian police of the United Nations?

3 A. From the moment the UN civilian police station was established,

4 our relationship with them was good. We had a good cooperation and we

5 informed each other, although it was rather us who informed them, about

6 the assignments we completed and activities and events that were taking

7 place. We met at least once a week, I mean representatives of the police

8 in Benkovac and the CIVPOL in Benkovac and once a week we submitted a

9 report to the CIVPOL listing all events and developments for the past

10 week, and if some serious crimes were involved, we would go further back

11 than one week. We also listed our assignments and our performance in

12 accomplishing these assignments.

13 That section of the UNPROFOR covered Lika and Northern Dalmatia.

14 In Sector South, we had meetings with the CIVPOL for Lika and Northern

15 Dalmatia and we met in a different place every time to discuss the overall

16 situation in the sector, and all chiefs of the civilian police, local

17 police and all chiefs of the Sector South CIVPOL attended those meetings.

18 Q. Can you tell us the name of any chief of CIVPOL from that area,

19 from that sector, that you remember?

20 A. When they arrived, members of the CIVPOL set up a number of those

21 stations and later on, they streamlined a little but they had a permanent

22 station in Knin, Kistanje, Benkovac, Obrovac, Drnis, Vrlika, and of course

23 in the area of Lika, in places like Lapac, Korenica, Gracac and so on.

24 Q. Thank you. You have explained that you informed the civilian

25 police of the United Nations on a regular basis. Did the UN civilian

Page 6882

1 police have any obligations to notify or report to you? Was it a mutual

2 thing?

3 A. As for their obligations towards us, their only obligation was to

4 pass information to us if anybody reported a crime to them, so that we

5 would be able to take action. They sometimes got hold of information that

6 was not available to us, and that happened mostly with reports made by

7 Croatian citizens who would report incidents to them when they were on

8 patrol. They had no other obligations towards us.

9 Q. Did the UN civilian police force have powers to conduct their own

10 investigations on the ground, if you know?

11 A. I don't know what powers they had. They never told us. But I

12 know that they usually asked us for information about various cases, what

13 happened, what action was taken, whether that action was sufficient to

14 detect the perpetrator. We always shared that information and always of

15 course the ultimate objective was to apprehend the perpetrator, and all

16 our work was geared at that. However, it was not always successful.

17 Q. When you describe your relationship with the civilian police of

18 the UN and the UNPROFOR, and when I say "your," I mean the Benkovac public

19 security station, was that relationship driven by your own personal

20 attitude and approach, or did you have specific instructions on how to

21 treat them?

22 A. We had orders to establish cooperation with them, and I don't

23 think it is my personal achievement in that area. It is a result of what

24 we were asked to do, what we were instructed to do. The entire police of

25 the Republic of Serbian Krajina had the same instructions, to cooperate

Page 6883

1 with the UN force.

2 Q. Did they ask you to build up measures for protecting the Croat

3 population in your area of responsibility?

4 A. At the meetings we had together and while analysing the situation

5 in such areas and settlements, they asked us to strengthen controls and

6 check-points. Yes, they often asked for that and we complied. We took

7 such measures and we increased our presence in those settlements to

8 protect the population.

9 Q. To protect that population from what? Can you tell us about

10 specific villages and settlements where you did that?

11 A. Like in every war, at that time, in the territory of Krajina,

12 there were a lot of armed people, and discipline is weakened by the war.

13 Individuals and groups would act on their own initiative, raiding,

14 looting, even killing. Those were people, individuals, who were

15 renegades, outlaws, people who thought that everything was permitted, and

16 they took advantage of the situation when the police was not able to be

17 everywhere and do everything. So they took law into their own hands,

18 mostly for personal profits. They were mostly bandits and robbers.

19 At that time, in the area of Benkovac municipality, we often had

20 to protect people in Sopot, Dobropoljci, Perusic, both Gornji and

21 Donji Perusic, Rodaljice, and later some smaller population centres where

22 we set up check-points and built up patrols and increased our presence.

23 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Milovancevic, before you proceed with the

24 witness, and lest I forget, at page 10, line 20, you had posed this

25 question to the witness: "Can you tell us the name of any chief of police

Page 6884

1 from that area, from that sector, that you remember?"

2 I believe the question was addressed in relation to Sector South.

3 In addressing his answer, he said: "When they arrived, the

4 members of CIVPOL set up a number of those stations" and later on he went

5 on to list the stations involved. But he did not tell you the name of any

6 chief. So I wondered if we could just deal with that answer which he

7 overlooked to address specifically before you move on any further. Might

8 I at this stage? Thank you.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

10 didn't notice that such a question was recorded in the transcript. The

11 witness, in fact, answered the question that I actually asked. I asked

12 him about the places where police stations were set up. It must be a

13 misinterpretation, if that's what is recorded in the transcript. The

14 witness anyway answered exactly what I asked. If you want me to ask him a

15 question about chiefs, I can do that.

16 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: No, not at all. I was just addressing the

17 question that was on the record. I am grateful for the opportunity to

18 place the correct question on the record, on the transcript.

19 Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So that means there was no question asked about

21 any chief of CIVPOL?

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you understood

23 correctly. At no point in time did I ask a question about the name of the

24 chief of a UN civilian police station. What I did want to know is if the

25 witness could tell us about the places where these stations were set up,

Page 6885

1 to list the places for me, and I believe the witness has answered the

2 question.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: So are you saying that what is mentioned at

4 page 10, line 20, that question is incorrect -- is incorrectly recorded?

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was the correct question? Names of police

7 stations?

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That's right. That's right.

9 The question was the names of the police stations.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your

12 Honour.

13 Q. What about these cases you've mentioned, renegades from law,

14 bandits was the word you used, who for their own profit were attacking

15 civilians? Did you look into such cases in your capacity as a police

16 officer? Did you try to tackle any such incidents?

17 A. It's in the very description of our work as police officers that

18 we have to investigate incidents and crimes like those. We acted in the

19 spirit of those laws. We did our work as police officers all over the

20 world do. There would be a report, the crime would be reported, we would

21 go to the scene of crime, there would be an inspection, and whenever it

22 was ascertained that a crime had been committed we would take steps to

23 shed light on the circumstances and find the perpetrators as well as study

24 the consequences of any crime.

25 It was in fact the case that we had a number of serious crimes,

Page 6886

1 murder more specifically, in Benkovac municipality. Civilians were

2 murdered. Just after my arrival in Benkovac, sometime in April, in the

3 village of Perusic Gornji, a woman named Peka [phoen] was murdered. I

4 can't remember her family name. She read people's palms. That's what she

5 was famous for. She was killed in her own home.

6 Just after the crime became known, we took steps to inspect the

7 crime scene and interview any witnesses. During our investigation, we

8 found out that two young men, one from that village and one from the

9 neighbouring village, had committed that crime. We started a pursuit and

10 caught the perpetrators over the next two days. We brought them in,

11 interviewed them, confiscated evidence such as a hunting rifle that they

12 carried, and a pistol. We submitted this evidence to the relevant court

13 for further processing. I know that they were later tried for this crime.

14 Further, concerning more serious crimes, I remember that sometime

15 in June 1992, a group of three perpetrators committed a quadruple murder

16 of Croatian citizens in the village of Rodaljice. One lady survived,

17 although they tried to kill her too but she survived. Having found out

18 about that incident, we took appropriate steps and interviewed the

19 surviving lady right away. She was able to identify one of the

20 perpetrators. She gave us his name, and then we found another

21 perpetrator, arrested them both, and brought them before an investigating

22 magistrate. While this surviving lady was in hospital later on, she

23 enjoyed full protection by the police, until the UN military component

24 arrived in her village.

25 Q. Witness, in response to one of my previous questions you said you

Page 6887

1 were upholding public law and order, and you were trying to tackle all the

2 cases that came your way. Was this in fact more difficult due to the war

3 that was on and how did the war make your work more difficult?

4 A. It was more difficult to --

5 MR. WHITING: Objection. The question is, once again, leading.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic? Was this in fact more difficult

7 due to the war that was on and how did the war make your war more

8 difficult? You're telling him the answer. You are testifying.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that wasn't the

10 way I understood my own question. The witness previously answered that

11 they had tried to tackle cases but this was made more difficult by the

12 war, and I'm asking him why, to explain why.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm quoting exactly what you said. Just look at

14 page 15, line 24. I beg your pardon, line -- page 16, line 1. Was this

15 in fact more difficult due to the war that was on and how did the war make

16 your work more difficult? What better example of testifying can one get?

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That is true. That is true,

18 Your Honour. It's true. That's what it says. But I was referring to the

19 witness's previous answer. He said that in as far as that was the case it

20 was made more difficult, which is something the witness has said earlier.

21 But I can rephrase my question, or perhaps I may as well give up the

22 question so that it could not be construed as leading. I shall be asking

23 further questions that I may be able to use in order to answer this one.

24 My purpose was not to lead the witness but to take as some sort of a point

25 of departure one of the witness's previous answers but this may be

Page 6888

1 construed as leading and therefore I withdraw the question.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Particularly when you don't say, "You told us

3 previously A, B, C," you know, then we don't know where you come from.

4 But we understand that may not have been your intention but it's the

5 effect, you know.

6 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I wonder if we could have a cite to the

8 answer that the counsel is referring to, when he says that the witness

9 previously testified about this. I just would be interested in the cite

10 to that.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like to show us that, Mr. Milovancevic?

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have just

13 withdrawn the question. I see no point in pressing this matter any

14 further. But if you insist, we can look at one of the previous questions

15 or we can simply ask the witness to share that with us.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's look at it. Just show it to us. Because we

17 want to see what is on the record, not what the witness is now going to

18 say. We want to see what he has already said. Can you show us?

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't seem to be

20 able to locate the exact point right now. I think that must have been

21 about 15 minutes ago.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's all the more important for you to link your

23 question or your statement to what he said earlier, you know. Otherwise

24 you sound like you're leading, and until we can find that, you are

25 leading. Until we can find that previous statement, you really are

Page 6889

1 leading, Mr. Milovancevic.

2 You see, if you can just try to remind yourself all the time, not

3 make statements, put a question: What happened, who did this, where did

4 it happen, how did it happen? But once you start with any other word that

5 is not why, who, when, how, you're likely to be asking -- making a --

6 asking a leading question.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I do agree with that, Your

8 Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Let the record then show that you have not

10 been able to show us that portion where he previously talked about the

11 difficulty from the war. And you may proceed.

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I do have a request to make,

13 Your Honour. I would like to be given an opportunity after break to

14 locate the exact point in the transcript for you.

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6890

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I will

2 do, Your Honour.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, what I've just been referring to,

5 apparently, was said during private session so I violated a whole lot of

6 things. May we just make sure that we edit away all of what I've just

7 been saying right now. Thank you very much.

8 You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have Exhibit 617

10 brought up on our screens?

11 Q. Before the document appears, Witness, I can tell you that this is

12 a summary report produced by the Benkovac public security station in

13 relation to the period between the 10th of December and the 24th of

14 December, 1991.

15 You now have the document in front of you. What about the upper

16 right corner of the document? Who submitted this report? What does it

17 say?

18 A. What I can see in the heading is that the document was produced in

19 the Benkovac public security station. It's about the area covered by the

20 public security station between the 10th of December and the 24th of

21 December, 1991.

22 Q. Can we please for a moment look at page 2 of the document, the

23 next page? The document only has two pages. Can you see who signed the

24 document and what does the stamp tell you?

25 A. The document was signed by Djuro Vukasinovic. At the time he was

Page 6891

1 assistant chief in the crime department of the Benkovac public security

2 station. The stamp reads: "Public security station, Ministry of Internal

3 Affairs."

4 Q. Can we please now go back to page 1? There is reference there to

5 a number of events, or, rather, crimes reported to the Benkovac public

6 security station in this period, the first of these occurring on the 12th

7 of December, 1991, and onwards. Do you see that report in front of you,

8 Witness?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. This document has been used before in these proceedings. If you

11 look at the following date, the 21st of December, 1991, can you tell us

12 what the report is about in relation to that particular date?

13 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm going to object. I think there is

14 a lack of foundation for these questions. The witness has testified that

15 he was not in Benkovac at this time period. So aside from just reading

16 the document, which is already in evidence, I'm not sure if we have any

17 basis for believing that the witness can contribute anything, if he has

18 any knowledge that would elucidate this document beyond just reading it.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we shall only be

21 able to ascertain that once we have heard the witness's answer. The

22 objection would be a logical one but only in case the Prosecutor knew

23 already what I had in mind and what sort of question I would be asking.

24 What I want to know is precisely what this document speaks about, what

25 this document tells us about the situation that prevailed on the ground.

Page 6892

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is that this document is already in

2 evidence. This witness was not in Benkovac around the dates of these

3 events. He cannot speak to them other than to tell us what's already in

4 the document, you know. Unless you say he drew this report and he was in

5 Benkovac at the time --

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we will ask --

7 I'm sorry if I interrupted.

8 We will ask the witness what he knows about what is written in the

9 document, if anything. I do not understand the misgivings of our

10 colleague, Mr. Whiting, that there could be some prejudice.

11 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm not -- just to respond to that, I'm

12 not concerned so much about prejudice as about relevance. And perhaps if

13 the -- if the foundational questions were asked first; that is, do you

14 know anything about what's written in this document; yes, I do; how do you

15 know that -- or no, I don't. If yes, then how -- then how do you know it,

16 and then proceed from there rather than skipping those questions and going

17 right to asking him to comment. That's all that I'm asking.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you with him now? You understand now his

19 misgivings?

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, I don't, not at all,

21 because the objection of my learned friend makes no sense. The witness

22 did not write this document and I'm not going to ask him what's in the

23 document because he's not the author, but I will ask him -- or, rather, I

24 want to ask him if he knows anything about what -- about the events

25 described in the document, the time when all that happened, about the war

Page 6893

1 situation in that entire area.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, you can't want to have your cake

3 and eat it. You're telling us -- listen to what you say. "The witness

4 did not write this document and I'm not going to ask him what is in the

5 document because he is not the author." Okay. Then you say: "But I will

6 ask him -- or, rather, I want to ask him if he knows anything about what

7 events -- about the events described in the document."

8 Why do you -- you're contradicting yourself in the same sentence.

9 Now, the objection is no foundation has been laid for the question

10 that you want to ask, and the ruling is that, indeed, the objection is

11 upheld.

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the objection

13 concerned the massacre in Bruska. With your leave, I would like to ask a

14 different question related to this document. That's why I asked for it to

15 be displayed on the screen, a different question, and I can lay the

16 foundation for it.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, lay the foundation. Let's hear it.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, when describing the end of 1991, you talked about the

20 situation both in Knin and in Benkovac. Can you remind us once again what

21 was that situation like?

22 A. At that time, in the area of Knin, Benkovac and Obrovac, fighting

23 was going on between the Yugoslav People's Army and the Croatian army, and

24 the situation was very difficult. As for towns and villages on the front

25 line itself and close to the front line, they were exposed to fire, both

Page 6894

1 infantry fire and mortar fire, and artillery fire sometimes. As for towns

2 like Benkovac, Obrovac and Knin, they were exposed to a large extent to

3 artillery fire from tanks, rockets, mortars, multiple rocket launchers.

4 Q. Who -- where did that fire mostly come from?

5 A. The Croatian army.

6 Q. Could you please read three lines, the fourth, fifth and the sixth

7 date, the 21st, the 14th and the 22nd of December, 1991 in this report?

8 A. The 21st of December, 1991, around 2115 hours, an attack launched

9 on Benkovac, shelling from a multiple rocket launcher. In -- later on on

10 the same day, Stabanj fired upon by mortars. 14th of December, 1991 in

11 the afternoon and evening --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: There must be something that I'm missing here or --

13 I really don't know. You have asked this witness to testify for the last

14 couple of minutes about what he knew happening in Knin, Benkovac and

15 Obrovac, and from there you just straight go into this document without

16 laying foundation for asking questions on this document, and there is an

17 objection standing on that.

18 You've got to lay a foundation for using this document. What you

19 were asking this person, this witness, has nothing to do with this

20 document. Examples were given to you by the Prosecution: Do you know

21 anything about these documents? If you do, how did you come to know?

22 That's how you lay the foundation, Mr. Milovancevic. But you don't just

23 get a witness who has nothing to do with this document to start talking

24 about it and want to link what he has just been saying to this when there

25 is no foundation for using this document. He's not the author of this

Page 6895

1 document.

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the reason why I

3 asked those questions is the reply the witness gave me when I showed him

4 the document, when he said he knew it, that it's from the public security

5 of Benkovac, it bore the stamp, a signature, it's that it's the public

6 security of Benkovac that made this report in end 1991 so he recognised

7 the document. He acknowledged it. I went on to ask him if he were

8 familiar with the general situation in that area. And now I want to

9 compare that general situation with the description given in this

10 document. And the witness is precisely reading sections from this

11 document that tell us about the situation as it was in December 1992 --

12 1991.

13 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, Your Honour, but I believe that misstates

14 the evidence. The witness did not recognise the document. He read that

15 the document was -- he recognised it as appearing to be a document from

16 the public security section of Benkovac as it having the stamp from the

17 public security section of Benkovac and being signed by an individual whom

18 he described. All fine. But that's different from recognising the

19 document.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what I was going to try and say. All of us

21 can read what's written there and the witness could -- that's what he did.

22 He just read what's on the document, you know. And I don't know why

23 Mr. Milovancevic is just refusing to ask these very basic questions that

24 would lay the foundation for him to use this document. And I think I've

25 given you examples of those questions. Mr. Whiting has also given those

Page 6896

1 examples. Either you put that -- you made that foundation. If you don't

2 make the foundation, I'm afraid, Mr. Milovancevic, we can't let you put

3 questions about this document. Just lay the foundation, please.

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Witness, you said that you see a stamp of the public security

6 station on this document. Can you tell us whether public security

7 stations in the Republic of Serbian Krajina or maybe SAO Krajina had the

8 obligation to report all incidents and events that happened in the area

9 that they covered?

10 A. Public security stations were duty-bound and they had orders to

11 report all major events that had a bearing on the security station to the

12 SUP or a MUP of Krajina.

13 Q. Artillery fire on a town or any shooting that would happen in the

14 area of responsibility of a public security station, was or was not an

15 incident that had to be reported to a superior authority, the MUP?

16 A. Bombing and shelling of population centres was always reported to

17 superior command, and later on, such incidents were included in weekly or

18 monthly reports that also made an analysis of the frequency, the incidence

19 of such events and they were also submitted to the superior command. It

20 was our obligation to do that.

21 Q. You read a report from the 21st of December about the shelling of

22 Benkovac. You have another item concerning the 14th of December. Could

23 you read that one, please? And that -- we'll finish with it.

24 A. On the 14th of December, 1991, in the afternoon and evening,

25 mortars fired upon the area of Smilcici, Kasici, Zemunik Gornji, and

Page 6897

1 Smokovic. All these are in the municipality of Benkovac, which is our

2 territory.

3 Q. These reports about artillery activities in the territory of your

4 municipality, what do they tell you? What was the situation like in the

5 territory covered by the public security station of Benkovac?

6 A. These reports tell us that the situation was very difficult.

7 Normal life was impossible. And normal work was impossible for members of

8 the police force. Can you imagine members of the Ministry of the Interior

9 who had to perform their jobs in Smilcici, Kasici and places like that,

10 ten kilometres from the closest positions of the Croatian army, who were

11 exposed to shelling while performing their daily duties? This was -- this

12 had a bearing on their jobs and the tactics they employed in interviews

13 aimed at detecting perpetrators.

14 In the area of Benkovac municipality, as far as Croats are

15 concerned, it was mainly the elderly people who remained in their homes.

16 Younger members of their families had left for Zadar, Biograd and other

17 places, and as the police performed their regular duties aimed at

18 protecting the lives of the population, all the citizens of Benkovac, they

19 would run into individual soldiers who quarrelled with them, who

20 said, "Look at you, you are protecting Croats who live here, whereas other

21 Croats at the other end of the front line keep shooting and shelling us."

22 That's what I mean when I say that the job of a policeman was very

23 difficult at that time. There were constant conflicts and the threat of a

24 major conflict between the police and the army in the RSK, because the

25 police was constantly subject to accusations that they were not

Page 6898

1 sufficiently involved militarily and that they were protecting Croats,

2 although they were just doing their job.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honour, that this

5 is a good time for a break.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will take a short break and come back at quarter

7 to 11.00.

8 Court adjourned.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Witness, may I ask you some questions first?

12 How was that when you arrived in Benkovac police station in April

13 1992 did you learn -- were you instructed about cases of serious crimes

14 which happened before your arrival? And if yes, how were you instructed?

15 How learned you about these cases? Especially cases where investigation

16 had not been yet concluded.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I arrived at

18 Benkovac, the then chief of the public security station did not hand over

19 his duties to me in the regular manner because he was on sick leave,

20 absent from work, so I took over my duties with the help of other

21 employees, other staff. They informed me about past events and incidents.

22 I studied the archive of current case files that were in the police

23 station. It was the duty of internal affairs organs, including the police

24 station in Benkovac, to continuously work on investigation of crimes that

25 have no statute of limitations, and war crimes and serious crimes like

Page 6899

1 murder have no statute of limitations. So I familiarised myself with

2 those cases with the help of my underlings. Some of those case files from

3 the past period were resolved and closed. Some of them were pending, and

4 I don't remember a particular case that we elucidated upon my arrival that

5 had been pending from the past. But it is certain that a great number of

6 crimes were elucidated.

7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: What, according to your memory, was the most

8 prominent cases? Do you not remember single cases from the couple of

9 months before your arrival?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in that area before I arrived,

11 there were several major crimes that I remember. For instance, one case

12 when 10 inhabitants of a place called Bruska were killed. That happened

13 in end 1991. I also remember a case when four or five people were killed

14 in a place called Gornji Zemunik. That also happened a couple of months

15 before my arrival. That perpetrator was found. And there were some other

16 individual cases that my staff informed me about and we later established

17 a link with other cases.

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. Just shortly about this case from

19 Gornji Zemunik, who was the perpetrator who was found? Was that a single

20 perpetrator, and who was it, of which ethnicity especially or was he or

21 she?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for Gornji Zemunik, I remember

23 that the victims were also from Gornji Zemunik. There were three or four

24 elderly persons and the perpetrator was also a local, an ethnic Serb. I

25 don't remember his name and surname, but I know that this was reported on

Page 6900

1 TV, Krajina TV.

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And the victims also were Serbs?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe I mentioned

4 that the victims were Croats, and the perpetrator was an ethnic Serb from

5 the same village.

6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. And now about Bruska, these 10

7 inhabitants, were they also elderly persons, these victims? And also of

8 Croatian ethnicity?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, that happened one

10 night in a house in Bruska. There was a total of 10 victims, nine of them

11 Croats and one was a Serb. I think, if I can recall that now, that they

12 were of differing age groups. I seem to remember that from the case file.

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. Thank you very much.

14 Did you see also this report which we are having on our screen, or

15 was this addressed to somebody else? Do you know that personally from

16 your experience, after you arrived in Benkovac? Do you know this

17 document?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document that I was looking at a

19 while ago is one of many documents that were being sent to Knin on a

20 weekly basis. I had probably seen it in the archive in Benkovac at some

21 point when I was going through the files to familiarise myself with the

22 overall situation in Benkovac municipality. At the time, I could not

23 really go into the substance of the report or whether it was truthful.

24 This was a weekly report and there were many of those, most of which I

25 went through at some time or another.

Page 6901

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. Could you please tell us how the

2 investigation about this case of the massacre in Bruska went on under your

3 guidance?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I arrived in Benkovac

5 about four or five months after this event had occurred. The distribution

6 of forces on the ground I found was as follows: In Bruska there was a

7 police station which was under the authority of the Benkovac public

8 security station. This station was supposed to guard the remaining

9 population in the area and to keep the situation under control. There was

10 information to indicate that the massacre at Bruska had been committed by

11 mistake by a Croatian sabotage forces that had been infiltrated into the

12 area. There were all sorts of information circulating. Sometimes I would

13 pass through the area and go to the Bruska station to see what was going

14 on. The case was still open. And all the new information and new facts

15 were being gathered and made up the relevant case file.

16 Many things kept happening, new situations were emerging all the

17 time. Some territories were falling, some were being taken by the

18 Croatian forces in Benkovac municipality. There were a lot of things

19 happening and I could not afford to focus on one thing alone. Rather, I

20 worked on the most urgent cases. Whenever new information emerged from

21 the previous period, cases could always be reopened. Had we had any kind

22 of information at the time about the possible perpetrators, we certainly

23 would have taken steps to shed light on that crime, whoever the

24 perpetrators might have been. This was after all a crime where a large

25 number of inhabitants from the same village had been killed in the same

Page 6902

1 night, and that was a serious crime.

2 I can also tell you about the problems we faced when some people

3 were killed in the village of Dobropoljci, which is part of Benkovac

4 municipality.

5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: No, thank you. I was just focusing on this case.

6 Thank you very much for now.

7 Please.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would the cases mentioned in this document on the

9 screen be the kind of cases that you probably got familiar with as you

10 arrived on the scene in -- at your new job in Benkovac?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I arrived in

12 Benkovac, what I had to do was to survey the overall situation that I now

13 found myself in and to consider the steps that were to be taken. On a

14 daily basis, our soldiers and civilians were being killed on the ground.

15 We tried to do our duty.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I stop you? Could you please just concentrate

17 on the question I put to you?

18 Would the cases that you see mentioned on this document on the

19 screen be the kind of cases that you became familiar with when you got to

20 Benkovac? I think you can just say either yes or no.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, cases such as the one I

22 have on my screen right now are the kind of cases that I first encountered

23 when I came to work in Benkovac.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the document that is on the screen is the kind

25 of document that constituted the reports that your police station

Page 6903

1 generated?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the document that

3 you're looking at speaks about a 15-day period of time. The report was

4 submitted to the superior command about events that had occurred over the

5 previous period of time. This is a summary of those 15 days of that

6 month.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Once again, just listen to my question. Is the

8 document that you see on the screen the kind of document that was

9 generated by your police station by way of reports that you had to make

10 periodically?

11 See, we don't have much time to hear a long story. When I ask you

12 a question where you can answer either by yes or no, please just say yes

13 or no.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We would later send documents of

15 this kind to our command. We would produce such documents and submit them

16 to our command. These are summaries, but we would make special detailed

17 files in relation to each of the crimes and incidents that occurred.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 Mr. Milovancevic.

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Witness, in one of your previous answers you mentioned an act of

22 aggression around the Miljevac plateau, which was an area adjacent to

23 yours, to the area in which you worked. During your time at the Benkovac

24 public security station, were there any acts of aggression against your

25 own area?

Page 6904

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, I have to

5 interrupt you now.

6 Your Honours, we might want to redact the first part of the

7 sentence, the beginning of the witness's answer, where the witness

8 identifies himself. (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: We must strike off what you've just said too.

11 Page 32, line 22, 11 or whatever that is, can that please be

12 deleted, as well as page 33, line 3, 11.09.15.

13 Mr. Milovancevic, I think -- I thought Judge Hoepfel was trying to

14 lay the foundation for you to use this document. Are you going to go back

15 to this document or are you done with it, this document that's on the

16 screen?

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: That in fact was the sense of my questions.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in addition to

19 all the answers we have received, the Defence has no need to go back to

20 this document since it has already been tendered and admitted. That is

21 the reason why I chose not to dwell on the matter.

22 I believe Your Honour, Judge Hoepfel, has shed sufficient light on

23 all the facts surrounding this document. That's our position, and that's

24 why I chose not to go back to the document. Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then we can get it off the screen.

Page 6905

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Q. You started explaining about the situation in Benkovac itself.

3 Will you please repeat your answer, since we had to interrupt the

4 proceedings in order to protect your identity.

5 A. On the 22nd of January, 1993 an act of aggression was committed

6 against Benkovac municipality, more specifically the following villages:

7 Islam, Grcki, Hasic, Smokovic, by the Croatian forces.

8 Q. Thank you. Were there any UN troops deployed in the area and how

9 long did the aggression last? How long did it go on for?

10 A. There was a UN presence in the area, more specifically the

11 military component. Part of the UN French Battalion were deployed in that

12 area.

13 Q. Can you tell us more about the impact of that attack? What

14 exactly happened in Benkovac and its surroundings?

15 A. The beginning of the attack was quite sudden. In the morning

16 hours on January 22nd, just after daybreak, at about half past 6.00 or

17 quarter to 7.00 in the morning. At first there was shelling of these

18 villages by artillery fire and then the Croatian infantry forces moved in.

19 The population was not enjoying any protection from its own army.

20 There was some UNPROFOR check-points in the area but the population

21 remained unprotected. They suffered a lot of casualties. They arose from

22 their beds and tried to escape and flee to Benkovac in a bid to save their

23 lives.

24 As for the town itself, a great confusion and panic reigned. It

25 was necessary to mobilise new forces and send them immediately to the

Page 6906

1 front line. People and refugees were already arriving in the town, the

2 inhabitants of those surrounding villages. Horrible news spread of many

3 killed and the situation was becoming increasingly difficult.

4 Q. When you talk about refugees and civilians, can you tell us which

5 ethnic group these people belonged to and where they came from?

6 A. The refugees arriving from those villages were ethnic Serbs

7 because those villages were ethnically Serb villages, and all the refugees

8 were Serbs who had been attacked by the Croatian army.

9 Q. Regarding this situation that arose in January 1993, did you

10 receive any orders from Mr. Martic, the then Minister of the Interior of

11 the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

12 A. The first order I received at the time from the military command

13 based in Benkovac was to use our police forces to defend the

14 Pridraga-Novi Grad axis which is near a place called Karin, the reason

15 being the army did not have sufficient forces at its disposal to cover the

16 entire length of the front line so we sent all of our police to that area,

17 with very few police officers remaining in town for various emergencies.

18 At the time, I remember receiving a phone call from Minister

19 Martic asking me to get in touch with the Kenya Battalion and try to work

20 with them to evacuate some UNPROFOR soldiers left behind in Karin and

21 Zemunik Gornji. Karin is a sea-coast settlement near a Catholic

22 monastery. There was a rather small unit of UNPROFOR's FrenchBat

23 stationed there. Amid all the fighting, several Croat shells landed on

24 the French camp, killing three French soldiers. The remaining soldiers

25 there were now blocked and could not leave the area. My order was to help

Page 6907

1 lift the blockade and help them leave the area, in cooperation with the

2 commander of the Kenya Battalion, an interpreter and a number of other

3 people that I'm unable to specify right now, some people from his escort,

4 some of his associates, we left in the evening and helped to evacuate the

5 remaining elements of the unit alongside with their equipment from that

6 camp. They withdrew to their own headquarters in Gracac.

7 Q. May I interrupt you for a while? You said you helped get the rest

8 of the unit evacuated. Whose unit was this? Who were you helping?

9 A. As I've mentioned before, I was helping members of UNPROFOR's

10 FrenchBat.

11 Q. Thank you very much.

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to

13 identify the area in which all of this is taking place and since there has

14 been mention of a great number of villages and settlements, I think it

15 might be useful for the witness to show us on the ELMO, on page 25 of the

16 atlas. Mine is marked so if the usher could please give me a hand with

17 this, if there is a blank copy of the atlas, an unmarked copy of the atlas

18 maybe that could be handed to the witness so he can show us where these

19 villages are. I'm talking about page 25.

20 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think this is loaded in e-court, so I

21 think actually it can be accessed by e-court and marked that way.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 May we please have it coming up on the screen then from

24 the e-court?

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: It's document 23, isn't it?

Page 6908

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The exhibit.

2 MR. WHITING: I think because it's such a big document it takes a

3 few seconds for it to come up but I believe it will.

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Before this document appears on our screens, not to waste time,

6 Witness, let me ask you about this instruction you received from

7 Mr. Martic regarding the rescue of UNPROFOR troops. What was the

8 situation with the civilian police in that area? What were your duties

9 regarding them?

10 A. As for the civilian police of the United Nations, in this

11 aggression against Ravni Kotari, which is the name of that area in

12 Benkovac, they were taken by surprise, too, and they found themselves in a

13 difficult situation. There was a great inflow of refugees from afflicted

14 villages, and those refugees were very aggressive because their friends

15 and family had been killed and because they were driven out without being

16 able to take any belongings and they were very aggressive also because

17 they believed that under the resolution UN troops were supposed to protect

18 those UNPAs and there were rumours that members of the French Battalion

19 cooperated with Croatian forces and had helped them mount this operation

20 by removing mines and pointing out the minefields that stood between

21 Croatian forces and these areas. So as I said, these refugees were very

22 angry and aggressive and they -- there was an attack against the station

23 of the CIVPOL, so I sent my men to protect that station because UN

24 civilian police were not armed and some of the attackers were armed. And

25 they urged each other to shoot. That's why I asked the deputy of the

Page 6909

1 police station in Benkovac to help this, to help in this operation.

2 Q. Can I stop you here, Witness? Did Mr. Martic give you any orders

3 regarding the position of the civilian police at that time?

4 A. As for orders given at that time, it was said in a telephone

5 conversation that members of the United Nations, both of the military

6 mission and the CIVPOL must be kept absolutely safe because they were not

7 responsible for the aggression. And I was asked to evacuate UN

8 representatives from Karin and Zemunik and to protect CIVPOL.

9 Q. And did you evacuate them and did you protect them?

10 A. In conjunction with them, because I went immediately to their

11 hotel to see them, we decided on a course of action because they didn't

12 have any instructions from their superiors on what to do and how to

13 behave. Some of them had private accommodation, some of them were living

14 in the hotel, and I told them that they should all move to the hotel where

15 I would give them police and military security so that nobody could come

16 near them to endanger them, and they would have 24-hour security from the

17 MUP of the Serbian Krajina, and if they needed to go to their apartments

18 to fetch something, they would get police escort until they returned to

19 the hotel. And they continued to live in the hotel and to be fed there

20 and have normal communications with their command.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Witness, were these UNPROFOR people in a

22 hotel or in a Catholic monastery? I thought I heard you earlier talk of a

23 Catholic monastery, unless I misheard it.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I spoke about the

25 Catholic monastery, I meant members of the military mission of the French

Page 6910

1 Battalion. That monastery was in Donji Karin, a place where three members

2 of the UNPROFOR were killed. But that was the military component of the

3 UN mission, French people. And my second answer, the second part of my

4 answer, referred to the civilian police of the UNPROFOR, and those are two

5 different cases.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

7 Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Can we

9 zoom in on quadrant 2 on the monitor? Raise the document a little to see

10 Zadar and the hinterland of Zadar. Further up, please. I don't know if

11 I'm clear. Scroll in the other direction. Good. Good. We can leave it

12 this way.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You want Zadar or Knin? I see Zadar has

14 disappeared from --

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's why it

16 would have been better perhaps to put the atlas on the ELMO before the

17 witness. Because Zadar is on page 24, and in the electronic system the

18 atlas is divided into pages, so you can't see two pages at the same time,

19 although those are adjacent areas, or maybe we can. Yes, perfect. Leave

20 it like this.

21 Q. Can you use the pencil that the usher will give you now to show us

22 what places were attacked, their juxtaposition to Benkovac, which villages

23 were in danger.

24 A. On the 22nd of January, 1993, the following places were attacked:

25 Latinski Islam.

Page 6911

1 Q. Can you underline these places? Just underline or make a little

2 circle.

3 A. Islam Grcki. We can't see Kasic village, which is here. And

4 there is another place, Gornji Zemunik. And Smokovic, just below the

5 airport, Smokovic village. Those were the villages that were attacked on

6 the 22nd January 1993.

7 Q. Where were the members of the French Battalion to whom you

8 extended assistance?

9 A. Donji Karin was here, and the Croat forces, attacking along this

10 axis, soon emerged at Novi Grad and the Novi Grad sea.

11 Q. Can you encircle Novi Grad?

12 A. And here in Gornji Zemunik there were also members of the UNPROFOR

13 whom we pulled out.

14 Q. Could you also encircle Benkovac to see where you were located?

15 Thank you.

16 From what villages did refugees come to Benkovac? Can you show

17 us?

18 A. The same morning, and that continued until noon, a large number of

19 refugees arrived from Latinski Islam, although fewer of them because that

20 village had been destroyed in previous operations and it was a mixed -- it

21 used to be a mixed village. And the Croats had fled in the first part of

22 the war, and now Serbs had to pull out. In Grcki Islam, the population

23 was purely Serb. In Kasic village, the population also fled to Benkovac.

24 And of course, the population of Smokovic village and some from

25 Gornji Zemunik.

Page 6912

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe this is too

3 early. Can I leave this map on the monitor for the time being, if we need

4 the witness to show some more locations, and I will tender it later.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber is in your hands, Mr. Milovancevic.

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Can you tell us how long these combat operations lasted? Was it

8 just on the 22nd January?

9 A. The combat operations in that area lasted intensively for about

10 two and a half months on a daily basis. There was a great number of

11 casualties, and I can say that every day on the Serb side we had 10 to 15

12 dead, mostly soldiers but some civilians as well, who got killed in the

13 shelling of both military and civilian targets.

14 Q. Can I ask you, did you mean every day during those two and a half

15 months while the combat lasted?

16 A. Yes. For that entire period. I remember well some conversations

17 when I arrived at Benkovac, at that time there were around 100 of

18 inhabitants of Benkovac who had been killed in combat, in which they were

19 involved on the side of the JNA and the Territorial Defence. During this

20 operation that was called Maslenica 3, there were about 420 or 430 dead,

21 including the hundred from the past period, and a large number of the

22 casualties were natives of other parts of Serbian Krajina and volunteers.

23 Q. When you mentioned this figure, 420 or 430, what is that figure?

24 I don't think it's clear from the record. I don't think it's clear from

25 your answer. What does that figure represent?

Page 6913

1 A. That figure, 420, is the number of army troops who were killed

2 from the beginning of the war until April 1993.

3 Q. You have explained that the Croatian attack was sudden, that the

4 army gave you an assignment to mobilise police officers who would help out

5 on the front line. Do you remember that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How did you organise yourselves to maintain public order and law?

8 A. Well, at that time, law and order was not a -- the priority. The

9 priority was to preserve our territory, to preserve as much of the

10 territory as we could and to stop the Croatian forces from advancing.

11 That was our priority task, and everything else was -- came second.

12 Mobilisation of policemen and everything else came later. Those were all

13 assignments that we had to perform.

14 Q. Were there any volunteers in that territory at the time?

15 A. Yes. There were various units of volunteers in that area.

16 Q. Can you tell us how the fighting stopped? Who stopped this

17 Croatian attack?

18 A. At first, the Croatian attack was stopped by the army of Serbian

19 Krajina. And then a line was established, a line of clash, of fighting,

20 and fighting continued every day. This conflict was terminated, thanks to

21 an agreement whose name I don't remember now. I think it was the Zagreb

22 agreement. But it was an agreement between the warring parties under the

23 aegis of the UNPROFOR. A cease-fire was agreed along with a number of

24 other things, such as withdrawal of the Croatian troops from territories

25 they had captured, return of refugees to those territories, et cetera, and

Page 6914

1 that agreement had a number of others provisions.

2 Q. What happened with these villages that the Croatian attack was

3 directed at in this Maslenica 3 operation? Do you remember?

4 A. Several months later, in April or May 1993, and even later, the

5 inhabitants of those villages would occasionally go to visit their homes

6 in that area. I, too, visited occasionally. And I can say that all the

7 houses and property were destroyed and burned, and the houses were no

8 longer fit to live in, and due to a large number of mines and unexploded

9 devices, it was unsafe to live there, and there were many cases,

10 accidents, that happened when people came to visit their homes.

11 Q. In all that time, while the fighting lasted, how did the

12 population of Benkovac live and behave, including the refugees?

13 A. The Serb refugees from those villages that I just mentioned found

14 accommodation in Benkovac and the surrounding area, whereas another part

15 went on to Knin and the Knin area, where they resettled. They were

16 unhappy, extremely unhappy, and they threatened to fight and use their

17 weapons. They blamed UN troops for all that had happened to them and they

18 also blamed our military command in Benkovac, who put their trust in the

19 UNPROFOR and agreed to withdraw into their barracks and place their

20 weaponry under double lock. They were furious over all that had happened

21 to them.

22 Q. What about the native Croatian population in Benkovac and other

23 areas? Did they experience any difficulty in the course of this

24 operation, in the course of Operation Maslenica?

25 A. The ethnic Croats who remained in Benkovac itself and its

Page 6915

1 surroundings, and I later heard that this was the case in Knin and other

2 villages around Knin such as Vrpolje, were experiencing some degree of

3 difficulty because Serb refugees would come to their homes and take their

4 homes by force, move in by force, in order to have somewhere to stay, a

5 roof over their heads. In both Benkovac and Knin, there were very few

6 police officers remaining in the area to uphold law and order and to deal

7 with the sort of problems that the police usually have to deal with, that

8 constitute usual police work. There were problems along the front near

9 Pridraga and Novi Grad. Our priority was to protect our territory.

10 Internal trouble was less important since we believed to have the

11 protection of our territory as our upper most priority.

12 Q. Did you try to deal with the problem with the existing forces, the

13 forces that you had? How did you go about that.

14 A. We had few people and the problems were mounting which made our

15 work very difficult, needless to say, especially in view of the fact that

16 we had been asked and there had been an order from the military command in

17 Benkovac to help the military police with mobilising new soldiers. We had

18 to tour all the villages in a bid to mobilise all able-bodied men in order

19 to get them to join the army. We were facing the difficulty with

20 accommodating all the refugees. The town was being shelled on a daily

21 basis by artillery fire, by multiple rocket launchers.

22 Another problem was the fact that we had to protect the Croats

23 living in the area, lest they be subjected to acts of revenge by

24 individuals or people who might have had some hidden intentions. All of

25 this had to be done. We had a Crisis Staff set up in Benkovac for these

Page 6916

1 purposes. Their aim was to help with putting up refugees who were being

2 put up in kindergarten, school buildings and other public institutions.

3 Some Croats came, most of them elderly people. They were afraid for their

4 lives, and they said that they would rather move out of the Benkovci area

5 and go to Zadar and they needed help with this. They applied to the

6 Red Cross to move out of the Benkovac area and to be sent to Zadar where

7 some younger members of their own families were staying. The Crisis Staff

8 drew up a list and organised a convoy for these people.

9 Most of the remaining Croats left the Benkovac area after

10 Maslenica 93 operation. Very few Croats remained, a mere handful of them.

11 Certainly less than were present in the area before the operation. They

12 left on that convoy. I remember that because I assigned some escort to

13 that convoy to keep any loose cannons from committing acts of massacre

14 against the civilian population. The escort followed them as far as the

15 Zemunik airport which was the confrontation line and that was where they

16 crossed to the other side and that's how the situation ended.

17 Q. In connection with your last reply, if I may just ask you

18 something, is this some sort of understated expulsion, if I may put it

19 that way, or secret expulsion or covert expulsion? Do you think this

20 operation could be termed an act of covert expulsion by the Krajina

21 Police?

22 A. There is no way that anyone could describe this as an organised

23 way of expelling people from Benkovac municipality. There can be no talk

24 of that. I would even go as for as to say that we helped these people,

25 because many of them could have fallen prey to bandits and gangs roaming

Page 6917

1 the area because this is precisely the sort of situation that is quite

2 common in a war. All the systems of state control are weakened and such

3 individuals, rampaging individuals, enjoy a greater degree of freedom.

4 I'm sure that we -- or I managed to save a great many lives by

5 evacuating those people. We took all the steps necessary, although we

6 were facing a great deal of pressure along the front line and elsewhere,

7 but we assigned forces to this mission in order to have it successfully

8 implemented and in order to get these people out alive and perhaps make a

9 future return for them possible, which later proved to be the case.

10 Q. While describing this situation about the Croatian aggression

11 early in 1993, you described how you treated the civilian police. During

12 this trial we have heard evidence and we have seen documents that could

13 lead us to conclude that the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of

14 Serbian Krajina was making the work of the civilian police impossible. Do

15 you know anything to indicate such a conclusion, and can you draw a link

16 between what I've just told you and the situation as you knew it?

17 A. This is the first time I hear of any such reports, such as the

18 ones you've mentioned. At no point in time, not even after work resumed

19 at the civilian police station did we hear any such reports from them.

20 Once the situation was normalised in the area, they returned and we

21 resumed work and we picked up where we had left off. We used to meet a

22 lot. We used to talk about things, and I never heard anything being said

23 by them about their work being made difficult or impossible.

24 I will tell you about a situation that I faced myself, when I

25 helped protect and preserve members of the civilian police in Benkovac on

Page 6918

1 the 22nd of January, 1993. They had spent several days in a hotel there

2 until they were ordered to go back to their headquarters in Knin. There

3 was a news flash on CNN that the local police chief had taken hostage a

4 number of UNPROFOR civilian police officers. I'm not sure who was the

5 first to break the news or for what reason, but I know that two or three

6 days later, Cedric Thornberry arrived in Benkovac, who at the time was a

7 high-ranking UNPROFOR official in Yugoslavia. He came to see for himself

8 what was going on. He talked to members of the civilian police who told

9 him that they were never held hostage, they were merely arrested for a

10 short while, and they thanked him for coming. Most of the UN civilian

11 police returned to Benkovac later on and they resumed work as usual until

12 the very end of their mandate.

13 Q. How long did you remain at the Benkovac public security station

14 for?

15 A. I continued to work there until the 1st of May, 1994.

16 Q. Where did you go next?

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 Q. Do you know when it was that Mr. Martic became president of the

21 Republic of Serbian Krajina?

22 A. Mr. Martic became president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina in

23 April 1994, as far as I remember.

24 Q. At the time, you say you were still at the Knin public security

25 station. Do you know anything about the position taken by Mr. Martic as

Page 6919

1 president of the republic, his position on the crimes committed and their

2 perpetrators?

3 A. I was all the time in touch with Mr. Martic, and whenever we met

4 at meetings, and whenever police work was discussed, especially whenever

5 there were any celebrations such as the Krajina Police day on the 4th of

6 July or the 5th of July. The 5th of July was security day in Krajina.

7 Mr. Martic would address police officers and citizens to express his best

8 wishes, and he always remained adamant that we should act in accordance

9 with the laws and that we should try to be as successful as possible and

10 get the best possible results in our work. This was not mere lip service

11 in his case. His support meant more in purely practical terms, where he

12 clearly demonstrated that he meant what he was saying. I can't be

13 specific about the date, but I know that this happened after Maslenica 93

14 operation.

15 Martic once ordered that all perpetrators of serious crimes be

16 arrested, particularly murderers. These perpetrators were then tried, but

17 for a variety of reasons these people were not detained in prison but were

18 eventually released. The fact that such people were being released caused

19 shock among the honest people of Krajina. They asked that these persons

20 be isolated and be sent where they belonged, but the judicial bodies, for

21 all sorts of reasons, both objective and subjective, neglected their

22 duties and failed to carry out their tasks, which left Mr. Martic with no

23 choice but to issue an order to that effect. I remember we were in

24 Benkovac municipality, and our mission was to arrest such people and take

25 them to be locked up in prisons near Stara Gradiska and Okucani.

Page 6920

1 Q. What about the name of Sameer Bino; does that ring a bell?

2 A. Sameer Bino. Yes, I do remember that name. He's an ethnic

3 Jordanian. He was the chief of police at the Amman airport. I think that

4 is the capital of Jordan. And he was also the head of CIVPOL Sector

5 South. I think he was their first head ever. I even remember his face.

6 Q. Do you know about the fact that the UN civilian police submitted

7 reports to their superior command?

8 A. I never saw any such reports, but it seems very likely to me that

9 they did send reports to their superior commands. I did not myself see

10 any such report, but I would have expected them to produce and submit such

11 reports.

12 Q. Can we please have Exhibit 732 brought up on our screens?

13 This is a report from the UN civilian police Sector South. The

14 date is the 22nd of May, 1992.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I forgot to tender the map with

16 all the places marked into evidence but I believe the markings are now

17 lost or have not been saved, or have they?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, because you said you were going to return to

19 the map so now --

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That was an omission on my

21 part, Your Honour. If we still have the map in the system with all the

22 markings, may that now please be admitted into evidence?

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map with the markings on it --

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is -- as marked is admitted into evidence.

Page 6921

1 May it please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit number 892.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 Now, Mr. Milovancevic, do you want to start with this document

5 that has just come up on the screen or are you putting it there, ready to

6 have your ducks in a row for the next session?

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That's for after the break,

8 yes, please. That would be appropriate.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We will take a short break

10 and come back at half past 12.00.

11 Court adjourned.

12 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness, before we proceed with this document that's on the

17 screen, I forgot to ask you something about Maslenica 3 operation, that

18 period of January and the few following months of 1993. Does the name

19 Arkan mean anything to you?

20 A. To all the citizens of the former Yugoslavia, Arkan is a familiar

21 name. It's the name of the man who was really called Zeljko Raznjatovic.

22 As for the situation around Benkovac, I remember that at that time

23 of the aggression and Maslenica 3 operation, Arkan was in Benkovac leading

24 some of the armed units. He was at that part of the front line.

25 Q. Do you know under whose command he was?

Page 6922

1 A. Just after the war broke out, after the 22nd January, 1993,

2 several days into the conflict, Arkan arrived in the area of Benkovac with

3 his unit. I cannot tell you precisely how large that unit was --

4 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Excuse me, but there was a specific question.

5 Do you know under whose command he was? Please address that question,

6 Mr. Witness. Thank you.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was going to give a

8 broader explanation but if you want me to come to the point, I can say

9 that to the extent I used to see Arkan at the time, he was under the

10 command of the army of Serbian Krajina.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation].

12 Q. Thank you. How long did he stay in Benkovac, until the end?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second, Mr. Milovancevic. I thought you

14 said who. Under whose command? I'm sure you're looking for the name of a

15 person. To say he's under the command of the JNA doesn't seem to be the

16 answer.

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the point of my

18 question was whether the man was under somebody's command or not. That's

19 the part I'm interested in. I wasn't looking for a name. I was looking

20 for the name of the person or the officer under whose command Arkan was.

21 The witness said he was under the command of the army of Serbian Krajina

22 and that answer was sufficient to me. That's why I didn't insist any

23 further but if -- but only if you accept this explanation.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead, Mr. Milovancevic.

25 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Before he goes ahead, with respect, might I ask

Page 6923

1 the next question because I'm interested in knowing.

2 Do you know which officer of the army he was under the command of,

3 which particular officer? Because I would like to know this. If you're

4 able to say, please tell us. If not, please tell us that you don't know.

5 Because it is important and I would like to know for the purposes of these

6 proceedings.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, I visited the army

8 command several times, in view of my duties and my line of work, and I saw

9 Mr. Raznjatovic, also known as Arkan, talking to officers. I know that he

10 and his unit were active in operations and he received his assignments

11 from the garrison in Benkovac. At that time, the army commander in

12 Benkovac was Lieutenant Colonel Bogunovic. He was the commander of the

13 army of Serbian Krajina in Benkovac.

14 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And are you saying that therefore Arkan was

15 under his command? Is that what the Chamber should understand?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Lieutenant Colonel

17 Bogunovic was then commander of the barracks and the army in that area.

18 And on those occasions when I was present, Arkan received his assignments

19 from the Lieutenant Colonel. I don't know the details of their

20 conversation and the details of the orders because that was not within my

21 field of competence, nor was I there to supervise either the army or

22 Arkan. But from what I know, Arkan was involved in coordinated action

23 with the army and he received his assignments from Lieutenant Colonel

24 Bogunovic.

25 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I want to thank you, Mr. Witness. But if I may

Page 6924

1 make the observation, sometimes in these proceedings less is more. If you

2 understand the saying "less is more," if you can answer with a sentence,

3 it's better for your case that you do not answer with ten or five

4 sentences, so you need to bear that in mind. But I don't wish to delimit

5 what you have to tell us in any way but I just place that on the record.

6 Thank you so much.

7 Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Did the said Arkan remain in the area of Benkovac until the end of

10 combat operations?

11 A. He did not.

12 I have to explain for you to get a picture of the situation. From

13 the time he arrived in Benkovac, Arkan turned up at the hotel and demanded

14 that the hotel in Benkovac be vacated for him to place there his troops,

15 his headquarters and his logistics. At that time, the mission of the

16 civilian police of the UNPROFOR was leaving for their headquarters in Knin

17 following orders from their command, and among other people staying at the

18 hotel was I, plus another man who was involved in political work, late

19 Boro, his last name eludes me for the moment. So the two of us were

20 staying at the hotel and Arkan wanted us to leave, too, because he wanted

21 to be on his own. As I had no other place to live, because I'm not from

22 that area and there were no available apartments, I called up Mr. Martic

23 in Knin immediately to settle that conflict between Arkan and me. Mr.

24 Martic told me on the phone to stay at the hotel, that there is no reason

25 why I should leave because I had no other place to live or work and I had

Page 6925

1 to be there. And after that telephone call, Arkan consented to leave me

2 there at the hotel, and all the time while he was in Benkovac, I was there

3 too. And I saw him occasionally.

4 Q. Can I interrupt you, Witness? You gave us a very long answer.

5 Did he stay there until the end of combat operations? Give us the

6 briefest answer you can.

7 A. I was just coming to that. He didn't stay there until the end of

8 combat operations, and I don't know in fact how long he stayed. I think

9 about 15 days before the decision was made that Arkan should leave

10 Benkovac municipality, together with all the men he had brought with him.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think that's enough. Thanks. You have answered

12 the question.

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Just tell us briefly who made that decision and why?

15 A. As time passed, Arkan's presence in Benkovac boiled down to the

16 fact that he was instituting his own order in Benkovac while everybody

17 else was going to the front line.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who made the order?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That day I was at the hotel and

20 sometime around 12.00, I saw the news bulletin of the Knin television and

21 the first piece of news was a communique that said that the army

22 commander, Mile Novakovic, and Minister of Interior, Milan Martic, issued

23 the order for Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and his troops to leave the

24 Republic of Krajina and that the decision was effective immediately. Soon

25 after that decision, Arkan and his unit left Krajina.

Page 6926

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Thank you. We will now come back to this document that we placed

3 on the monitor before the break. It is a document of the Sector South of

4 the civilian police of the United Nations. Can you see from this paper

5 who the author is? Can we see that from the front page?

6 A. Yes. We can see that this report was made by the civilian police

7 headquarters of Sector South, and it is addressed to the force commander,

8 Nambiar.

9 Q. From this introductory part, can you read who wrote the report

10 under the subheading "sent by"?

11 A. We can see that it's Bino, Sameer, commander of the civilian

12 police. That's commander of the CIVPOL south at the time.

13 Q. Is that somebody new?

14 A. Yes. It's a person I knew and I could recognise him even now.

15 Q. Tell us again who he was. Bino Sameer was who?

16 A. From the conversations I had with him, I know that before coming

17 to this mission he used to be chief of police at the airport in Amman,

18 Jordan.

19 Q. Witness, I meant his position in the territory of the UNPA.

20 A. He was chief of the civilian police in Sector South of the


22 Q. Can we look at page 2? In the English translation it's also

23 page 2. In this passage that you see, we see a subheading, "expulsion of

24 Croats." Can you read it out to us?

25 A. "Members of the civilian police have done all in their power to

Page 6927

1 provide security in Sector South in the area under UN protection.

2 Pursuant to all reports sent to officers of the civilian police,

3 investigations are under way and are being successful in establishing

4 order and confidence among UNPROFOR forces. Despite attempts of the

5 civilian police to provide for the security of the population, local

6 members of the police continue to disrupt and scare the people. The local

7 population refuses to share information with UNPROFOR representatives

8 fearing possible retaliation by local police members."

9 Q. This is a report made on the 22nd. Does it faithfully reflect the

10 situation in your area?

11 A. At the time when this report was drawn up, I was in Benkovac.

12 When this report was made on the 29th of May, the CIVPOL of the UNPROFOR

13 was just getting fully developed. I see from this that they had 11

14 vehicles and 120 members in seven stations. I believe that with this

15 number of vehicles and men, they could not have successfully covered the

16 entire Sector South, and it doesn't look to me like this report reflects

17 faithfully the situation at the time when it was written.

18 Q. I'm interested in this sentence: "Despite attempts by the

19 civilian police to provide for the security of the population, local

20 police members continue to disrupt and scare the people and intimidate the

21 people."

22 What do you say about this?

23 A. I don't know to what extent the civilian police, meaning the

24 civilian police of the UNPROFOR, was able to provide for the security of

25 the population with the number of men and vehicles they had. On the other

Page 6928

1 hand, the -- this assertion that the civilian police of Serbian Krajina

2 disrupted their work and intimidated people, I don't know. I don't

3 understand why he never presented or shared this problem with us in the

4 meetings that we have had, why he didn't tell us about specific incidents,

5 what happened, when, when it was that the policemen of Serbian Krajina

6 intimidated people or disrupted their work. I'm honestly astonished at

7 this report.

8 Q. Can we look at page 3 of this document in B/C/S? We see a list of

9 incidents -- incident reports, rather. I would like to know about this

10 one that concerns Benkovac, 24th of May, 1992, and the one concerning

11 Obrovac. So that the next three reports. Can you tell us if you know

12 anything about the things described here?

13 A. On the 24th of May, between 1530 hours and 1930 hours, shells were

14 fired on the town as well as 12 missiles. A lady was wounded and taken to

15 the hospital. A building was damaged too.

16 Q. What does the report say about the whereabouts of this incident?

17 A. The report refers to the town of Benkovac itself and specifies the

18 time period in which shells and missiles were fired on the town.

19 Q. What does the report say about the date in relation to Obrovac?

20 A. On the 24th of May at about 0730 hours, shells were fired on the

21 town as well as 12 missiles. There was insignificant damage to the

22 buildings and there were no casualties.

23 Q. What I want to know is whether this information in relation to the

24 shelling represent facts as you know them.

25 A. Indeed they do. The incidents described here really happened. I

Page 6929

1 can't claim to remember the exact date when these things happened but this

2 is the sort of thing that used to happen a lot at the time. There was a

3 great deal of shelling. This is a report written by someone who was on

4 the ground. The Sector South command receives a report from Benkovac

5 CIVPOL and from Obrovac CIVPOL.

6 Q. On the same page, there are a number of other items speaking about

7 what happened in Benkovac and Obrovac in relation to specific crimes,

8 specifically the murder of two people at Zitnic and about what happened in

9 the Obrovac area. How come the UN civilian police know about these

10 things? How could they possibly have found out about these things?

11 A. The civilian police could only have learned about these incidents

12 in two ways. Firstly, by receiving a report from one of the damaged

13 parties or third parties, reports were submitted to them directly. Or

14 alternatively, reports were submitted to the Benkovac public security

15 station and then by rote, as it were, we would in turn inform them about

16 any incidents that had occurred. That was the agreement we had.

17 Q. Can we please look at page 4 of the B/C/S which is also the last

18 page of the document? I'm talking about the page in reference to Knin.

19 Can you please read that bit out to us?

20 It might be faster if I just read the relevant portion and you can

21 tell me if that accurately reflects the text that is about to appear. The

22 page says: "Knin, the 28th of May at about 1700 hours. Police observers

23 from Knin went to the village of Potkonje inhabited by between 60 and 70

24 Croats in order to carry out investigation. Upon their departure from the

25 village, members of the local police returned to the village and started

Page 6930

1 disturbing those people who had previously spoken to the civilian police

2 observers and ordered them to report to the local police station on the

3 29th of May. One of them, Slavko Maricic, was interviewed by the police

4 and later decided to call the UN civilian police station in Knin."

5 Is that what you see in front of you right now, Witness? Where is

6 this village located exactly, the village of Potkonje?

7 A. It's near Knin.

8 Q. Thank you. That's quite sufficient.

9 Is this the village you spoke about earlier when you talked about

10 the operation to disarm those people who were found to be in possession of

11 illegal weapons? You remember that village?

12 A. Yes. I mentioned the village yesterday for the first time when we

13 talked about disarming activities in May 1991.

14 Q. This report indicates that UN civilian police observers carried

15 out an investigation in that village. Is it possible for them to be

16 acting independently in carrying out an investigation?

17 A. That would certainly not be established procedure. I mean, for

18 the civilian police to carry out their own investigations. An incident

19 does not exist before it has been reported to the civilian police and the

20 police of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. That was the agreement we had.

21 They were informing us about damage. That strikes me as slightly strange

22 to say the least. I mean for the civilian police to be carrying

23 out investigation.

24 Even stranger is the fact that there is reference here to Slavko

25 Maricic, who was a person I used to know. We go back to my arrival in the

Page 6931

1 area, back in 1990. I believe he mentioned this. I forgot this at the

2 time, but I think he was HDZ president in Potkonje, the village of

3 Potkonje, back in 1990. I believe he's mentioned in those reports as the

4 person who was in charge of organising the arming of the Croats living in

5 the village of Potkonje. I tried to gather information on him by asking

6 around while I was working in Knin, and apparently a criminal report had

7 been filed against him at some stage earlier. I believe he was working

8 for the Elektrodistribucija company in Knin at the time.

9 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness. That's quite sufficient.

10 Can we please now have a different document displayed? This is

11 Exhibit 726. This is an UNCIVPOL report in relation to the period between

12 August 1992 and May 1993. The date is the 27th of July, 1993.

13 You have the title page of the document in front of you, the 27th

14 of July. That's what I mentioned. Can you please tell us who the sender

15 is, who produced this document?

16 A. The sender is John McElligott.

17 Q. What is the position of this person?

18 A. It says "deputy commissioner."

19 Q. Thank you very much. The title is underlined. Can you tell us

20 what it says, please?

21 A. The title is "crimes committed against Croats in sector south."

22 Q. Can we please pull the document up a little? Thank you. Let's

23 look at the first passage, the last sentence. It reads: "Men in military

24 or police uniforms are suspected of having committed 120 out of the total

25 of 497 crimes committed."

Page 6932

1 Have you ever seen a report like this?

2 A. I have never seen a report like this or anything similar in

3 relation to the period between August 1992 and the 31st of May, 1993.

4 I've never seen a report like this, or indeed this one.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me -- oh, I beg your pardon.

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Can we please go to page 4 of the B/C/S? The title is the 1st of

8 June, 1993. It says "UNCIVPOL Sector South." This is a table with 29

9 items. The designation is crimes committed against Croats between August

10 1992 and May 1993. You have that in front of you, sir. If we could

11 please have the list and the vertical column in its entirety, with all of

12 its 29 items, if we could have that blown up a little, please?

13 Can you have a look, please, sir? We have here a list of crimes,

14 as the report claims. Does this information mean anything to you?

15 A. This report indicates that it was produced in relation to the

16 previous nine-month period.

17 What I find a little strange is that a report was made about

18 crimes committed against Croats. I happen to believe that there were

19 other people living in the area in addition to the area's Croats. There

20 were Serbs in the area, too, and members of other ethnic groups as well.

21 If a report was being drafted, they could as well have produced a more

22 summary report about the entire population of an area, Sector South or a

23 different area. I'm not sure whose idea it was to produce a report like

24 this about Croats alone and none of the others.

25 The first item is arson. In the first months you have arson, 48

Page 6933

1 cases of arson, buildings probably. When I spoke a while ago about

2 Maslenica 93 police operation, in the course of that operation, one might

3 say that in those villages, over 700 or 800 Serb houses were set fire to.

4 I don't see any reference to that in this report. But these 48 cases of

5 arson are stated here in relation to those ten months. Between 700 and

6 800 Serb houses that were damaged in the course of that operation are not

7 referenced but here we see these 48 cases of arson being mentioned.

8 Destruction, expulsion, five cases of expulsion. How did that

9 define this? What constitutes an expulsion? I think this requires a

10 whole range of other documents for the sake of clarification to shed more

11 light on this sort of information that's being used here.

12 Illegal border crossing, that's item 11. I can't see a single

13 case being mentioned there throughout this period.

14 One thing I can share with you is that throughout my time in

15 Benkovac, after the first part of the conflict ended and the arrival of

16 UNPROFOR in June 1992 and the Maslenica operation on the 22nd of January,

17 1993, I remember that my area of responsibility was entered by Croats

18 illegally 13 times. 13 illegal border crossings by Croats into our area,

19 in other words. There were soldiers who had strayed and got lost at some

20 point but most of those were Croats who had previously been residing in

21 the area and then went to Croatia. They used the cease-fire to return to

22 the Benkovac area. 13 such border crossings. All 13 citizens were sent

23 back to Croatia. They are alive and well. This was done in cooperation

24 with the UN civilian police. I wish we could have some of the documents

25 on the work of the Benkovac UN civilian police, documents talking about

Page 6934

1 these border crossings.

2 I remember this one case when an ethnic Serb was driving a cart

3 down a very poor road and he strayed into a minefield. There was an

4 explosion that killed his horse on the spot. I'm not sure if his wife was

5 killed, too, on the occasion. Nevertheless, he survived and he was taken

6 to Zadar. We tried to step in and do something through the UN civilian

7 police --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, do you see that screen and

9 beyond, still one answer to the question that you put. I'm not quite sure

10 whether that's the answer that you wanted, all that story.

11 May I ask to you try and please control your witness? It's your

12 responsibility to make sure that your witness answers your questions as

13 you put them, concisely and very succinctly.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm trying to

15 keep all of that in mind. I do believe that --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Please allow the witness to

18 finish this answer.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Look, I would like him to finish but you must

20 control him. Take him to where you want him to go. He mustn't just go

21 loosely. I'm not against him telling his story. Let him tell his story

22 but under your control.

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you for the

24 guidance.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

Page 6935

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, you explained about the fact that between June and the

3 end of 1992 there were 13 illegal border crossings by Croats over to your

4 side, but you also spoke about this one ethnic Serb who crossed to the

5 Croatian side. You started telling us about what became of that person.

6 Can you just please tell us briefly, what was returned?

7 A. His body was returned. The explanation provided being that he had

8 hanged himself in the Zadar prison. But when we conducted a post-mortem

9 in Knin with UN civilian police members in attendance and a doctor being

10 brought there to supervise the proceedings, it was established that death

11 had been due to a lung haemorrhage because one of his ribs had been

12 crushed or pierced causing him to suffocate. So this spelled murder.

13 Q. You were trying to show that there were illegal border crossings.

14 I suppose that's what your explanation was about, illegal border

15 crossings, addressed in item 11 of this report.

16 The report mentions no such cases, does it?

17 A. No, it doesn't, none at all. That's why I'm saying, these

18 figures, this report, it's all relative.

19 Q. Another thing, this report indicates that the perpetrators of

20 these incidents are men in military or police uniforms who are suspected

21 of over 120 different crimes. What does that mean? What does the fact

22 mean that somebody, a potential perpetrator, is wearing a police or

23 military uniform? What does that mean to you?

24 A. At the time, all able-bodied men were walking around in uniforms,

25 be it military uniforms, those more commonly used in the first part of the

Page 6936

1 war, up until June 1992, or later on police uniforms. One could also say

2 that we had a lot of refugees in our area at the time, a large number of

3 refugees with no property and nothing to wear. So they borrowed clothes

4 or were given clothes, sometimes uniforms belonging to certain military

5 units. They wore those because they had nothing else to wear, not because

6 they close to wear military uniforms. It is that simple.

7 Q. Thank you very much. What about the fact that the report

8 indicates that the perpetrators were wearing military --

9 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm sorry to intervene, but are you saying that

10 the able-bodied men walking around in uniforms, that they were in fact

11 civilians, members of the civilian population?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I speak about that

13 time, what I want to say is that all able-bodied men were involved in some

14 way in the army, mobilised or not. Sometimes some of the units did not

15 have proper uniforms. Sometimes a soldier was given a police uniform by

16 someone else and they just put that on. Despite this, during the

17 cease-fire, we tried to make sure that nobody who wasn't entitled to wear

18 a uniform wore a uniform.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand very clearly: So these people in

20 uniform may very well have been soldiers as is alleged in the report, they

21 could very well have been civilian people who had been conscripted into

22 the army. Based from this answer that you have just given, sometimes some

23 of the units did not have proper uniforms, and you say all able-bodied men

24 were involved in some way in the army, mobilised or not. So it could very

25 well have been civilian people who were involved in the army, mobilised or

Page 6937

1 not?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could have been people involved

3 with the army who at this point in time happened to be wearing --

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. A person who is suspected of a crime. It has been established

6 that this person was wearing a police or military uniform. I want to know

7 how you feel about this. Would this not seem to indicate that the

8 perpetrator was a police officer or a soldier?

9 A. No. He is wearing --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: There is an objection.

11 MR. WHITING: Isn't this just pure speculation? And I mean how

12 could this -- how could this witness possibly know about all of these

13 incidents and what was happening? It seems like pure speculation, and I

14 didn't object to a number of these previous lengthy answers but they also

15 really are just argument. They aren't really evidence. It's just arguing

16 about this document.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have finished

19 with the document. In my previous question, I elicited from the

20 witness --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: There is an objection. Deal with the objection,

22 please.

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I'm

24 trying to do, Your Honour. I asked the witness about his opinion, his

25 informed opinion, whether a person wearing a military or a police uniform

Page 6938

1 automatically meant that the perpetrator was a soldier or a policeman.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question -- the objection is that that question

3 is speculative. Now, deal with that before you repeat the question. Just

4 let's observe rules of procedure here. Deal with the objection.

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll

6 do the same. We have finished with this document. Thank you.

7 Let us look at --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, deal with the objection, please.

9 The objection is you've asked a speculative question. The Chamber must

10 rule on that objection before you go to this document.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I was not quite clear, Your

12 Honour. You're right, I quite forgot to deal with the objection. My

13 concentration is reduced, and I was just about to go on with the

14 questioning.

15 I don't think my question is speculative is the answer to the

16 objection. The question is based on the report which one could also deem

17 to be speculative. The report does not name a single perpetrator. It

18 only says the perpetrators were wearing uniforms. If the report is

19 speculative, then my question is indeed speculative because we didn't see

20 a single perpetrator named. The witness just explained that many people,

21 civilians having nothing else to wear, wore all kinds of uniforms,

22 military and police uniforms. I went on to ask him whether that

23 automatically meant that people wearing uniforms were either soldiers or

24 policemen. That was the drift of my question.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: But coming from the very explanation that he gave

Page 6939

1 earlier, isn't that irrelevant? He's told you that people have no clothes

2 and they borrowed clothes and some are mobilised or not mobilised but they

3 are involved in the army. Can the point really be taken much further than

4 that by a person who didn't witness the crime itself? Can he take it any

5 further? And what is the value of his opinion? He's not an expert

6 witness.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. McElligott is

8 not an eyewitness either. He just summed up various other reports, and he

9 submitted a report to the United Nations saying that the military and

10 policemen were perpetrators and he didn't stop at that. He said it was

11 planned and systematic deportation. That is why I started this topic.

12 This report is not scripture. That's what I was trying to say. A

13 report can be truthful or untruthful, precise or imprecise. I was just

14 trying to establish to what extent this report is reliable and relevant.

15 But in view of the suggestion you gave me and in view of the objection, I

16 will withdraw this question because we have many other topics to deal with

17 and many other documents, if you believe that that is a good way out.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... you may

19 proceed.

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Q. Please, let us have a look at Exhibit 601. Before this document

22 [Microphone not activated].

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone, Mr. Milovancevic.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6940

1 Q. Before we get this document on our screens, you'll see it's a

2 document created by the Ministry of the Interior. Let us just show the

3 entire heading in the left top corner. Whose document is it? Yes.

4 That's what I meant.

5 A. This is a document developed by the Ministry of the Interior of

6 the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

7 Q. Can we see the bottom right-hand corner to see the signature?

8 A. It is signed Milan Martic, at that time Minister of the Interior

9 of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

10 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at the very beginning of the document

11 and have the witness read to us the first paragraph of this order,

12 including the two lines above the word "order"?

13 A. "Pursuant to Article 7 of the Law on the Organs of Internal

14 Affairs of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, we hereby issue the order to

15 all persons who do not belong to the police force of Krajina to take off

16 or remove all insignia of the police of the Republic of Serbian Krajina

17 and to take off the uniforms off all people who do not belong to the legal

18 military formation of the Republic of Serbian Krajina or the JNA."

19 Q. Thank you. What kind of situation is this order meant to deal

20 with?

21 A. This order was meant to deal with the problem of abuse of uniforms

22 of the police of RSK by people who wore that uniform without being

23 authorised to do so. They were invited to take off all insignia and

24 uniforms, lest they be removed from them.

25 Q. Does the order refer to people wearing both military and police

Page 6941

1 uniforms? Can we see that from the document?

2 A. We can see from the document that it refers to both police and

3 military uniforms of the Republic of Serbian Krajina and of the JNA.

4 Q. This is a document dated 13 January 1991 and we just saw a report

5 from the United Nations civilian police related to August 1992, May 1993,

6 where it says that 190 perpetrators of crime wore police or military

7 uniforms. Do you remember that, Witness?

8 A. I do. I remember that figure.

9 Q. Now, in relation to this document, and the previous one, my

10 question is: Does the fact alone that the alleged perpetrator at the time

11 of perpetrating the crime, wore a military or a police uniform mean that

12 the perpetrator was a soldier or a policeman?

13 A. No, it doesn't mean that the person is a member of the police if

14 he was wearing a police uniform, or of the army if he was wearing a

15 military uniform.

16 In the former Yugoslavia, under all regimes, and I'll just tell

17 you what the situation was like before. To identify policemen in old

18 Yugoslavia, policemen had to wear a belt with a number because the uniform

19 alone did not identify them enough, and this belt with a number enabled

20 checks to be made.

21 Q. Thank you. Let us look at another document. I believe this one

22 has already been exhibited and we can remove it from the screen.

23 Let us now look at a document from the 65 ter list of the OTP,

24 number 332.

25 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Please, Mr. Milovancevic, before you go on, I'd

Page 6942

1 like to pose a question to the witness, if he knows.

2 This order that was issued for persons not entitled to wear the

3 uniform or insignia to cease, where would it have been published so that

4 it might come to the attention of those persons who were in offence of the

5 order, so that they could now obey the order and carry out its terms?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under the Law on the Organs of

7 Internal Affairs, both of the Republic of Croatia, the Socialist Republic

8 of Croatia, and the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and I'm saying this

9 because most people in both entities originated in the past regime of the

10 Republic of Croatia, only authorised officers were entitled to wear a

11 uniform. It was a matter of common knowledge. Before the war, if

12 somebody were to put on a police uniform, they would end up in prison

13 because of that offence, and the uniform would be automatically removed

14 from them. That position continued to hold. If we encountered a

15 situation where due to the war, due to poverty, or due to their refugee

16 status, somebody wore a military uniform, that was more or less tolerated

17 but we did not tolerate the wearing of police uniforms which carried a

18 special meaning.

19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm sorry, there is something lost in the

20 communication of my question. The order that is being referred to is

21 dated the 13th of January, is it, 1992? Am I right? So this order was

22 made, was it not, so it could be acted upon? So what I'm asking is how

23 was communication made to reach the persons or audience that this order

24 was intended for?

25 Do you comprehend what I'm saying, the question I'm trying to get

Page 6943

1 you to ask -- to answer, rather, which you have not done as yet?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we are talking about

3 this order, 44/6, I cannot tell you anything specific about it because it

4 does not pertain to me or to my unit. It deals with a specific case

5 naming the person who is supposed to comply. So that particular person is

6 entrusted with an assignment in a specific area. That area is far from

7 anything I know. It's Sector North.

8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well. Thank you.

9 Mr. Milovancevic, I thank you. Please continue.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Can we now look at this document from the 65 ter list, number 332?

12 And before the document appears on the screen, it is a report of the

13 UN civilian police, Sector South. The author is Viktor Andreev.

14 You see this front page of the document? Can you, in the upper

15 left corner, make out the date and the author?

16 A. Is this the 13th of September, 1992? And the author is Viktor

17 Andreev, Sector South, Knin, and it is addressed to Cedric Thornberry in

18 Zagreb.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, let's look at page 3 in English.

20 At this moment, we have the English original only, and I will read

21 out this passage to you. "The recent torchings of houses and the attack

22 in the Catholic area of Drnis were sudden. It seems" --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please give a reference?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Tell us where you are reading from,

25 Mr. Milovancevic? You said page 3 of the English and we are at page 3.

Page 6944

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The first paragraph, Your

2 Honour. I seem to have said so. Yes, the first paragraph of page 3 in

3 English. The last digits of the ERN number should be 068.

4 Q. So: "Recent house burnings and attacks on Catholic churches in

5 the pink zone area of Drnis have increased sharply. It appears that news

6 about the restoration of Croatian authority in the area triggers these

7 actions as people seem to be taking the law into their own hands, trying

8 to discourage the return of Croatians to the areas or making it as

9 difficult as possible."

10 Yes, making it as difficult as possible. That's how I would

11 translate it to the witness.

12 Now, Witness, this report pertains to Sector South in the month of

13 September.

14 I see the interpreters seem to have problems. Is it necessary to

15 repeat? If not, I shall continue.

16 Are you familiar with these problems, cases of arson, houses being

17 burned and churches as well, in Drnis area which is adjacent to your

18 area? And we are looking at September 1992, an area referred to as the

19 pink area. You've heard the report, haven't you?

20 A. Drnis is another town with its own area. It also belonged to

21 Sector South and was relatively near my own area and the Benkovac public

22 security station. There is reference here to acts of arson in the pink

23 zone, the pink area.

24 One thing I can say is that pursuant to the agreement that was

25 reached, the arrival of the UN and the establishment of the civilian

Page 6945

1 police, so-called pink zones were established.

2 Q. Thank you. That's quite sufficient. Do you know anything about

3 these houses being burned, or churches, explosives being laid to blow up

4 houses or churches in the area? You've heard what the report says about

5 this. Do you know anything from your own personal knowledge?

6 A. No, nothing. I know nothing about this.

7 Q. What about the policies implemented by the government of the

8 Republic of Serbian Krajina? Were their policies aimed at burning or

9 destroying everything that belonged to Croats, all different kinds of

10 property owned by Croats, such as houses, farms, churches and so on and so

11 forth? Was there any official policy along these lines?

12 A. I never received any orders, any reports, throughout my time

13 there, nothing at all to indicate that anyone on behalf of the official

14 authorities had proposed or ordered the destruction of Croat-owned

15 property or their expulsion from the area. I never heard or saw anything

16 like that.

17 Q. You have this report in front of you. I've read out a passage to

18 you. It talks about the local population taking the law into their own

19 hands and deciding to burn down houses and wreak havoc. Do you have

20 anything to indicate that?

21 A. No, nothing about this specifically.

22 Q. In relation to this previous report, the crimes committed between

23 August 1992 and May 1993, you remember that it was signed by

24 Mr. McElligott. In relation to that report, Mr. McElligott stated before

25 a Trial Chamber about the time period that this report is in reference to,

Page 6946

1 and this was, after all, a summary, that in the territory of the Republic

2 of Serbian Krajina throughout this time, there was a planned and

3 systematic activity aimed at destroying all Croat-owned property, private

4 property, public institutions, churches, places of worship, private

5 buildings that the population was being mistreated and killed. Based on

6 what you know, is that a truthful account or not?

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.

8 MR. WHITING: Objection on a number of grounds. The first is that

9 this is -- this question, and for the very reason that is in the last

10 sentence, I believe, is in contravention of the order of the Court, I

11 believe, with respect to the conduct of the proceedings. It's my

12 recollection that that order instructs counsel not to put these sorts of

13 questions to witnesses, identifying the testimony of other witnesses and

14 to comment on their veracity. I may be mistaken but I believe that's in

15 the order.

16 Secondly, I think this has been asked and answered. The witness

17 can give his evidence on these topics. He has to the extent he knows this

18 information or doesn't know this information, but then to take it a step

19 further and ask him to comment on the veracity of another witness's

20 testimony I think is both irrelevant and improper.

21 Yes. It's paragraph 13. My speedy co-counsel has found it. It's

22 paragraph 13 of the order of the 19th of May, 2006, which says: "The

23 parties are reminded that while they may ask the witness whether or not he

24 agrees or disagrees with the evidence of the previous testimony, the

25 parties should not ask witnesses to comment on the credibility of other

Page 6947

1 witnesses."

2 I really think that that's what's going on here. And, in

3 addition, as I said, I think it's -- I think the witness has addressed

4 these matters. It's really been asked and answered.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you see that paragraph, Mr. Milovancevic, and

6 do you have any answer?

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not wish to

8 comment on the credibility of a previous witness but I do accept in good

9 part what the Prosecutor has just said. I will try to rephrase my

10 question in one way particularly, if you allow. And in as far as this

11 objection has been dealt with, my colleague is right.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, if he is right, you either withdraw or I

13 rule.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw. I withdraw my

15 question. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

17 But I just want to -- you see, the problem, Mr. Milovancevic, is

18 that you make speeches yourself before you put questions. You know, if

19 you look at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 lines before you put your

20 question, and not only are you inviting the witness to comment on the

21 credibility of other witnesses, you are yourself commenting on this. Of

22 course you are not barred from doing so but this is not the time. When

23 you argue, that will be the time. So just confine your questions to

24 questions, not speeches. Okay? Thank you.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 6948

1 Q. A question in relation to the summary report, the period between

2 August 1992 and May 1993, more specifically in relation to this time

3 period: What about you at the public security station or through your

4 contacts with the Ministry of the Interior, did you ever receive an order

5 to distinguish between people along ethnic, religious or political lines

6 while exercising your duties as a police officer?

7 A. I am saying this not just in relation to the period specified but

8 in relation to what was happening throughout the Republic of Serbian

9 Krajina. There was never any such order that was issued.

10 Q. Thank you. What about the Ministry of the Interior of the

11 SAO Krajina previous to this? Did they ever take any steps or measures to

12 ensure that their police officers got proper training?

13 A. Yes. There was a training camp in Golubic.

14 Q. Thank you. Can we please look at Exhibit 682?

15 The document has just appeared. It's difficult to read. Can you

16 tell us what it's about? What is the subject of this document? Who is

17 the sender? You don't have to read the name. The person submitting this

18 is a citizen. In the upper right-hand corner, we can see his first and

19 last name, Drnis, the 16th of June, 1993. Isn't that what the face of the

20 document appears to reflect?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who is this being sent to?

23 A. It's an application being sent to the Republic of Serbian Krajina

24 MUP in Knin.

25 Q. What happens to be the subject of this application?

Page 6949

1 A. This is an application to be accepted to a school for police

2 officers established by the Ministry of the Interior.

3 Q. Is the location specified?

4 A. This is an application to be accepted based on a public tender,

5 and the location referred in the letter is Banja Luka.

6 Q. Can we just look at the bottom of this document? Was the document

7 in fact signed by the sender? Can you see a signature there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can we please go to page 04006946 in B/C/S? In English that's

10 page 3. Just in order to look at the very beginning of this document, the

11 upper left-hand corner, the beginning of the page. Who produced this

12 report? What does it say in the upper left-hand corner?

13 A. According to what I can see here, this was produced by the Drnis

14 public security station.

15 Q. Can you please read out the second passage of this report? We

16 could just pull it up a little so we can see the second passage. Can you

17 please read out the second passage to us?

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Or would it perhaps be a good

19 idea to leave this for tomorrow morning, Your Honours? I'm watching the

20 time. I'm not sure if the Chamber has any immediate commitments.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber -- well, not the Chamber but one of the

22 members of the Chamber does have immediate commitments. Is it convenient

23 for you to stop at this point?

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Indeed it is, Your Honour. We

25 can continue tomorrow.

Page 6950

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then the matter stands

2 adjourned to tomorrow morning at 9.00.

3 Court adjourned.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of

6 August, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.