1 Wednesday, 23 August 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Mr. Witness. Once again I warn you
7 that you are still bound by the declaration you made to tell the truth,
8 the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth. Thank you very much.
9 Mr. Milovancevic.
10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS MM-096 [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examination by Mr. Milovancevic: [Continued]
14 Q. Good morning, sir.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. Today we're going to finish your examination-in-chief. Now we
17 will continue. I would like to remind you once again about our mutual
18 duty towards the interpreters to make a break between question and answer
19 so that they could do their job properly.
20 Yesterday we finished the day with a document that was on the
21 monitor. I think we can look at the document again. This is Exhibit 682.
22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have that on the
24 Q. You can see the document in front of you now. Do you remember
25 seeing this document yesterday? It's an application to be admitted to the
1 Banja Luka secondary school for internal affairs. Do you recall that?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at
4 page 04006946 in the B/C/S of this document -- actually, it's page 2 of
5 the English translation.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that page --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, page 3 of the English translation.
8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, in the
9 English translation it's page 3. Yes, it's page 3 of a total of four
11 Q. Sir, yesterday you looked at the heading of this document. It's a
12 document by the public security station in Drnis relating to the candidate
13 who submitted the application for the internal affairs secondary school.
14 Could you please tell me who this information refers to. Is that the
15 candidate whose name we saw in the previous document, and could you please
16 read paragraphs 2 and 3 of this document.
17 A. You can see from this document, from the information, that it is
18 the person from the document we looked at before applying to be admitted
19 to the school of the organs of internal affairs. This document
20 states: "Since residing -- since he no longer resides in Drnis,
21 Aleksandar's behaviour has been quite insolent. He socialises with his
22 peers as well as those older than he is who have a tendency for stealing,
23 harassing elderly citizens of Croatian ethnicity, and he takes the lead in
24 this. He's quite insolent towards the SUP workers when he talks with
25 them." He talks about injustices and so on. His father is now on a post
1 at Zitnic. It's a person who is prone to consuming large quantities of
2 alcohol and as such fires in town from fire-arms and creates disorder in
3 the house and there are frequent fights and disagreements.
4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the bottom of
5 this document.
6 Q. Can you read what it says in the lower right-hand counter.
7 A. It says: "Information checked by Nikola Vugdelija." This is the
8 person who actually wrote this report.
9 Q. Looking at this document in front of us now, is Nikola Vugdelija a
10 staff member of the Drnis public security station, based on what is on
11 this document?
12 A. According to this document, Nikola Vugdelija is an employee of the
13 Drnis public security station. I happen to know him personally and I know
14 that he worked at that station even before the war.
15 Q. In view of what you have read, can you tell us what his assignment
16 was. What is he actually reporting on?
17 A. His primary task in this report was to check the information
18 relating to the applicant interested to be admitted to the secondary
19 school for internal affairs.
20 Q. Thank you. That will be sufficient.
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 6944,
22 the last four digits on the B/C/S copy; and in the English that is page 2.
23 Can we look at the beginning of this document?
24 Q. Can you tell us whose document this is, what does it say in the
1 A. This is a document of the Knin SUP.
2 Q. Thank you. And what is the subject of the document?
3 A. The document is information about enrolment at the SUP secondary
5 Q. The last sentence before the list begins actually says: "The
6 following candidates were not admitted."
7 Do you see the name of the candidate who was mentioned in the
8 previous document?
9 A. Yes. It's the name under number 8, Aleksandar Tisma, the
10 candidate who was not admitted to the secondary school for internal
11 affairs. It's the name under number 8.
12 Q. There is also an explanation why certain candidates were admitted
13 and why others were not admitted. Could you please read that.
14 A. "On the 18th of August, 1993, the commission of the Ministry of
15 Internal Affairs selected the candidates to be enrolled at the internal
16 affairs secondary school in Banja Luka for the 1993/1994 school year. Due
17 to a large number of applicants, those selected had the best school
18 grades, were physically fit, had not been prosecuted, or their family
19 members were never prosecuted either."
20 Q. Thank you. Based on these three documents that you saw, sir, can
21 you perhaps conclude why the candidate Tisma -- excuse me, I didn't wish
22 to mention his name, the candidate under 8 was not admitted to school?
23 A. You can see from the documents that this candidate, number 8, was
24 not admitted to school because of the data established during the vetting
25 conducted by organs of the internal affairs. The candidate or himself or
1 his father do not meet the conditions required in order to be admitted to
2 school. His conduct is not something that is suitable and does not meet
3 the required standards.
4 Q. You worked in the police of SAO Krajina from 1990 until the
5 Operation Storm. So were these criteria applied throughout that whole
6 period? Do you know anything about that?
7 A. It was the duty of the commissions or the managers of the
8 organisational units of MUP, of the RSK, to vet all the candidates or new
9 employees. They had to check all the candidates interested in attending
10 schools and training courses of the Ministry of the Internal Affairs of
11 the RSK.
12 Q. Thank you. Did the RSK have its own education centre where police
13 officers were trained?
14 A. The RSK had its training centre in Golubic where police officers
15 were trained. These were policemen who had already completed secondary
16 school and served their regular military term of duty. They were trained
17 at Golubic.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] This document has already been
20 admitted into evidence. Can we now look at exhibit 674, please, 674. Can
21 we zoom in on the top left-hand corner so that the witness could read it,
23 Q. The text is not so clear, but can you tell us who drafted this
24 text and who is it being sent to? Can you see that from the heading?
25 A. You can see that the document was drafted at the Korenica
1 Secretariat for Internal Affairs and it's being sent to the 17th August
2 education centre at Golubic.
3 Q. Can you tell us what the subject of this document is. Below the
4 heading there is always the reference, the subject. Can you tell us what
5 that is?
6 A. It's an application for enrolment to the high school for internal
8 Q. Can you see underneath which school actually this is. You see two
9 lines on the screen, and it's enough. Perhaps you can read that.
10 A. "Find attached applications for enrolment at the internal affairs
11 high school in Zemun."
12 Q. Thank you, thank you.
13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the bottom
14 of the document to see who signed it.
15 Q. It's unclear. Can you please tell us who signed this document?
16 A. There's a signature there in the name of Marko Dragicevic, the
17 secretary, but it's not him who signed it. Somebody else signed it on his
19 Q. Thank you. Based on all of this, can you tell us what this case
20 is about, what is the Korenica SUP asking the education centre in Golubic
21 17th August to do?
22 A. The Korenica SUP is sending in applications for enrolment at the
23 school for internal affairs in Zemun in Serbia. They were forwarding the
24 list to the Golubic education centre, and they are asking the Golubic
25 training centre to include the candidates on the list for admittance to
1 the Zemun high school.
2 Q. Thank you. At the beginning of the examination-in-chief, at the
3 beginning of your testimony, sir, you explained that -- or you stated that
4 in early January 1991 the SAO Krajina SUP was formed. Do you remember
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Can you tell us very briefly what was one of the main tasks of the
8 SUP secretary?
9 MR. WHITING: Excuse me, Your Honour, this question's been asked
10 and answered already a long time ago, this exact question about the tasks
11 and -- of the secretary.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.
13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps my
14 colleague is right. I just wanted to create the ambiance in order to
15 present a document, but I can withdraw the question in order to save time
16 and just move on.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for saving time, Mr. Milovancevic. Move
19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: There's just a question I'd like to ask before
20 you proceed. Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.
21 I see a reference in the document to subject: "Application to
22 enroll at the college."
23 Now, the word that is being mentioned is "high school." I would
24 like to know what ages would the applicants be or the students be at this
25 college, because there is normally some distinction between college and
1 high school. So I'd like that clarified. I normally know college to be
2 after high school.
3 So could the witness answer, please. Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, high school of internal
5 affairs is -- comes after secondary school. So in the previous system of
6 levels, it -- the secondary school had the third and fourth degree. Some
7 of them had the fifth level. The higher school had the sixth level,
8 whereas the universities had the seventh level. High schools always were
9 counted as almost -- as having completed the first two years of
11 In this particular case, the candidates attending ranged from 20
12 to some 30 years of age. They had already started their work and were
13 continuing their schooling as they were working. That was the practice
14 then in many of the Ministries for Internal Affairs in other republics,
16 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Where does college fit in in the process, or are
17 the two words "high school" and "college" synonymous? Did you hear me?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you, Your Honour.
19 Higher school meant the first two years of university. So if
20 somebody who had completed this higher school, they could enroll at a
21 university and they could enroll straight into the third year of
22 university. And maybe there was some exams that they had to take with the
23 permission of the dean and then they would continue with their regular
24 university education from the third year onwards. So that was the level
25 of the higher school or the high school. That was the policy also with
1 various military schools, also law schools, schools of economy. They
2 could apply to all those universities. This actually also applied
3 throughout the war.
4 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: What the Trial Chamber was really trying to get
5 from you is whether there is a difference between college and high school.
6 So I beg your pardon. Maybe what I should get you to do is look at the
7 caption, the subject matter, and translate it and see if in the course of
8 the translation there is a reference to college or high school, because we
9 were really trying to discover whether or not there was a distinction
10 between what you have now described as high school and how it fits in in
11 the scheme of training as opposed to what is there on the caption,
13 So could you please look at the subject matter in the document,
14 that caption, and if you would read it and then maybe it could be
15 translated and we can see where the -- the difference might be, if any.
16 Please go ahead, Mr. Witness.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 The subject here is: "Application for enrolment to the higher
19 school for internal affairs. Please find attached applications for
20 enrolment at the higher school for internal affairs in Zemun."
21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you so much. Thank you very much.
22 Mr. Milovancevic, please proceed.
23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Picking up on the questions asked of you by Honourable Judge
25 Nosworthy, let me draw your attention to the end of that sentence in the
1 introductory part: "Please find attached applications for the higher
2 school of internal affairs in Zemun with complete documentation for the
3 following members."
4 What does this word "members" mean? Who are the applicants for
5 this school? Can you explain to us based on this?
6 A. We see from this sentence and from the words "for the following
7 members," that the enumerated persons are already members of the organs of
8 internal affairs, they are employees.
9 Q. To put it briefly, does it mean that those applying to be enrolled
10 in the school are already employees, police officers?
11 A. Yes. They are already police officers who are already employed.
12 Q. Let me see if we had this document -- yes, this is already an
14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we show on the monitor,
15 please, document -- or, rather, Exhibit 602.
16 Q. Before the document appears on our screens, to save time, we see
17 in the heading that it's a document of the Ministry of the Interior on the
18 Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina on the 26th November 1991. Let us
19 look in the heading, please, the top of the document, please, the left top
21 What I just said - and you can now see the document - is it indeed
22 the document of the MUP of SAO Krajina dated 26th November 1991?
23 A. Yes, I can see it. It's a document of the MUP, and the date is
24 indeed the 26th November 1991.
25 Q. Could you please read para 1. What does this document contain?
1 What are -- what is the large lettering in the centre?
2 A. This is an order.
3 Q. Thank you. Could you please read para 1.
4 MR. WHITING: Excuse me, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Whiting.
6 MR. WHITING: You know, I hate to interrupt because I don't want
7 to take up more time, but we're back again to the same problem. This is a
8 document that pertains to, from what I can see, a completely separate part
9 of the Krajina from the part where the witness was at the time. It
10 hasn't -- you know, he's about to start reading the document. I expect,
11 based on the questions that we've had so far today, that he's just going
12 to start commenting and giving his own interpretation and argument about
13 the document, but it hasn't been established that he knows anything about
14 this before he goes into it, and I think that that should be -- that that
15 foundation again should be laid before he just starts commenting on it.
16 It's not relevant if he doesn't know anything about it.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.
18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this objection is
19 completely baseless. Mr. Ari Kerkkanen does not come from Yugoslavia and
20 still he reviewed all the documents and testified that they were indeed
21 documents of the MUP. And now with somebody who as a policeman in the
22 SAO Krajina we are not allowed to review the document and discuss it. I
23 don't understand this kind of objection. The document relates to the work
24 of Mr. Martic, and the witness has said what the duties of the secretary
25 of the Ministry of the Interior were, beginning with the 1st of January,
1 1992, when the SUP of SAO Krajina was established. We heard already a
2 part of the answers, and now when I was about to move on I have to go
3 back. Our life is really complicated by this kind of objection.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The date was the 4th
5 of January, 1991.
6 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, just briefly, there's an obvious
7 difference between what -- between Mr. Kerkkanen's testimony and what the
8 counsel seeks to elicit from these witnesses. Mr. Kerkkanen simply
9 introduced the documents based on his document missions, did not comment
10 on them except to say what they said, and then they were introduced into
12 This document is already into evidence. It's available to the
13 Trial Chamber. It's available to Defence counsel to argue about later.
14 What we don't have here is any basis, and I don't believe that Defence
15 counsel has supplied a basis in his response, for believing that this
16 witness can shed any additional light on the document, aside from what's
17 there before our eyes. And this is just a -- you know, a waste of time.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, just like yesterday, I think the
19 question is lay a basis for what you want to say -- what do you want this
20 witness to say about this document. Because we can read what is on this
21 document and we don't need to have this witness interpret unless you have
22 laid the base -- basis for his interpretation that you want from him.
23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence
24 believes that the witness has already provided a basis for this question.
25 He spoke in general terms about the work of the secretariat of internal
1 affairs, that is the MUP of SAO Krajina. And our intention is not for
2 the -- to have the witness comment upon this individual document, but to
3 use this document as a basis for telling us his position, whether this was
4 a common phenomenon or just an individual-only case. So we are interested
5 in the whole phenomenon and it's -- the frequency of its occurrence. And
6 we believe that the witness, in view of his line of work and his
7 experience, can give an answer that would be of assistance and -- to the
8 Trial Chamber.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: What phenomenon do you want to establish,
10 Mr. Milovancevic?
11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The general phenomenon, the
12 general need in the period when the SUP of SAO Krajina was being created
13 to establish police stations with the war and secession, the existing
14 order was totally broken up, although there were -- there was personnel,
15 there was -- there were police stations, there were secretariats. But the
16 legal system stopped functioning. Financing stopped. Military
17 occupation, a siege occurred. And now I want to elicit from the witness,
18 using this document as an illustration, to tell us whether this was a
19 lonely instance or something that occurred generally. That's all I wanted
20 to know.
21 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, but then -- but then that
22 explanation -- then it becomes a leading approach to this witness. He's
23 going to show the witness a phenomenon and then say: Well, did this occur
24 elsewhere? Why doesn't he just ask what occurred and what the witness
25 knows without using the document in that way. So either he lays a
1 foundation for it and then uses the document or he just asks the witness
2 what he knows. But to kind to confuse the two processes I don't think is
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, you say you want to find out
6 whether this kind of order was a general order given all over the country,
7 all over the SAO Krajina. Let me just understand what it is you say you
8 want to do with this document.
9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Not really in that sense, not
10 literally. I think that I can use this -- it's not that I want to use
11 this document as something that applies to the entire SAO Krajina, but I
12 was going to ask whether this document speaks of a phenomenon that either
13 did or didn't exist in the territory of Krajina from what he knows and
14 from what he has experienced in various parts of that territory and in
15 various police stations. That was the purport of my question.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is all you want to establish? In that
17 instance, I'll let you ask the question. Ask the question.
18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Thank you, Your
20 Q. Witness, could you please read to us para 1 of this order.
21 A. "In keeping with the verbal and written agreement with the
22 commander of the Banja Luka Corps, Lieutenant-General Nikola Ozelac
23 [phoen], to the effect that the affairs covered by civilian authorities in
24 war-time conditions in the area of Dubica and Kostajnica, pending the
25 establishment of police stations in Dubica, all these affairs relating to
1 public security in the local commune of Dubica will be performed -- will
2 be covered by the public security station of Kostajnica with the help of
3 the military police, the Banja Luka Corps, or more precisely the
4 3rd Detachment."
5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at para 4.
6 Q. Can you read it for us?
7 A. "All persons wearing camouflage uniforms, while not being members
8 of the police of the SAO Krajina, while not having appropriate IDs of
9 authorised officers, or while not having been legally appointed by the
10 Ministry of the Interior of Krajina, are required to return all insignia
11 of the police and report to the military department of Kostajnica in order
12 to be included in the wartime formations of the JNA."
13 Q. What is the signatory?
14 A. Mr. Martic.
15 Q. With regard to this document, I want to ask you this about the
16 problem of establishing police stations in certain areas and restoring
17 order in terms of unauthorised wearing of police uniforms. Did this
18 problem exist only in the area of Kostajnica or did it exist elsewhere
19 as --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, please don't preach to the
21 witness before you ask your questions. Just ask your questions.
22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, and get to that question you said you wanted
24 to ask about this document.
25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. The question is -- the question is, Witness: In 1991, did the MUP
2 of SAO Krajina set up police stations in areas where they did not exist
3 before and did the MUP of SAO Krajina have any problems with maintaining
4 law and order as far as unauthorised wearing of uniforms is concerned?
5 A. In the course of 1991, when there were combat operations all over
6 Krajina, the legal and territorial divisions between municipalities that
7 existed before were disrupted so that certain areas were left without any
8 police stations and were no longer covered by police personnel, and a kind
9 of vacuum emerged. It was not clear at the beginning which authorities
10 from which territory had jurisdiction in terms of police work. Many
11 problems occurred, and after a certain time smaller police stations,
12 police sections, and outposts were established, including larger public
13 security stations.
14 I remember the instance of Drnis, where after combat activities in
15 1991, all the personnel of the public security station of Drnis left the
16 area because they were all Croats and they were at that station after that
17 mutiny in 1991. So a year later they left the station, they left the town
18 and the entire area, and the area remained without any police. And all
19 the problems that existed before remained.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm very sorry, but I thought, in essence, two
22 questions had been asked rolled up in one. The first relating to the MUP
23 of the SAO K and whether police stations were set up in areas where they
24 didn't exist before; and then a second question was concerning problems
25 with the wearing or unauthorised wearing of uniforms.
1 Has the question been -- well, maybe you could separate the
2 questions because that may well have been what confused the witness. And
3 if that was what you wanted to get from the witness, those two questions,
4 we could get him to be focussed in his answers. I remind him from
5 yesterday, less is more. And if he could just please answer directly.
6 Mr. Milovancevic, I think you will have to try and guide him because there
7 are time constraints also.
8 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I may, I hate to rise, but I think
9 that second question that the Chamber identified, which was, yes,
10 contained in Mr. Milovancevic's question, I think that was asked and
11 answered yesterday. I think that was addressed yesterday.
12 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I thought it was addressed yesterday, but I
13 didn't know whether there was something more that he had wanted from the
14 witness that could assist us in the area. But I do agree with you, I
15 recall that that question was placed on the record yesterday and dealt
17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Sir, you've heard the suggestion by Her Honour Judge Nosworthy.
19 You've responded to the first part of the question. The second part of
20 the question related to the authorised or unauthorised wearing of the
21 uniform. You did talk about that yesterday. Can you tell us whether the
22 Ministry of Internal Affairs intervened if it found out about such
24 A. It did intervene --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... just a short
1 answer: Yes, they did; or no, they didn't.
2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. Sir, could you please repeat your answer. Did you intervene or
5 A. Yes, we would intervene.
6 Q. Thank you. Responding to one of my questions yesterday, you
7 explained that the Secretariats of Internal Affairs -- or, rather, public
8 security stations had to report back to superior. Do you remember that?
9 A. Yes, they were obliged to do that.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at a document
12 on the 65 ter list that bears the number 701.
13 Q. Before we see the document, so as not to lose any time, this is a
14 document with a title compulsory instruction --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down when reading.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are asked to slow down, Mr. Milovancevic, when
17 you're reading so that the interpreters can keep pace with you.
18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe we can look at the top of
19 the document, please.
20 Q. Do you see this instruction, whose title I read out? It's a long
22 A. Yes, I see it. It's in front of me.
23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] For a moment, can we look at
24 page 10 in the B/C/S of this document; in the English translation, that is
25 page 16.
1 Q. Can you please read item 32 and underneath that can you look at
2 the date of the document and see who drafted the document. Can you see
3 that on that page?
4 A. Yes, I can.
5 Q. Can you please read item 32, please.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have no 32 on my page. It is on page 16 of my
8 MR. WHITING: I think it's page 15, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, have you found
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's -- sorry. It's at page 14. Thank you so
16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] In my translation, Your
17 Honours, page 14 ends with article 30 of the instruction. Article 32 is
18 on page 15 that I asked the witness to read. And then there is only one
19 line on page 16. So perhaps we have the different layout as far as the
20 translation is concerned.
21 Q. Sir, could you please read item 32.
22 A. "On the day this instruction goes into effect, the instruction on
23 reporting in public security tasks and other tasks of internal affairs
24 ceases to be in force. Number 11-021-10/74, dated the 3rd of June, 1974.
25 This compulsory instruction is dated the 20th of May, 1992."
1 Q. Can you please look at the very bottom of the document. We can't
2 see now who the signatory of the document is.
3 A. You can see that the document was signed by Minister Milan Martic.
4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 1 of
5 this document, where you can see articles 2 and 3. The last two -- the
6 last three numbers in the B/C/S are 917, if that makes it easier.
7 Q. Can you please read article 2 of these instructions. What does it
8 say regarding the duty to inform?
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note, we do not have the
10 translation of English in front of us.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Article 2 --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreters say that don't have a translation
13 before them, so will you please slow down so they can interpret properly.
14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Witness, can you please read slowly.
16 A. "Item 2. Organs of internal affairs are duty-bound in a timely
17 manner and completely to report and inform on the state of security on
18 occurrences and events from the internal affairs sphere as well as on
19 measures and activities they are carrying out in accordance with their
20 legal authorisations and duties. Besides mutual reporting and informing,
21 organs of internal affairs are to regularly inform the Assemblies of
22 socio-political and regional communities and the leaderships of
23 socio-political organisations."
24 Q. Thank you. Are you aware that the internal affairs organs were
25 duty-bound to do this?
1 A. Yes. I am aware of that and we acted in accordance with these
3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at item 4 of
4 this document, please. This is page 2 in the B/C/S, and in the English
5 translation it's also page 2.
6 Q. Can you please read article 4.
7 A. "Information implies gathering data, notices, other information,
8 their selection and classification, as well as compiling daily and
9 extraordinary information on events and occurrences in order to inform the
10 authorised organs and leaderships about the state of security in a certain
12 Q. Thank you. You have been shown a document before informing about
13 the situation in the Benkovac security station from the 10th to the 24th
14 of December, and it also mentions an incident that happened in that
15 period. Do you recall that document?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. This document, in your opinion, does it contain the information as
18 it is listed in item 4 here of this document?
19 A. The document that we looked at a day or two ago here was drafted
20 on the basis of this instruction and contains most of the information
21 required according to item 4.
22 Q. Thank you. Can you please read articles 6 and 7 of this
23 document. They are on the same page.
24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe we can scroll up a little
25 bit -- scroll down a little bit. On the English translation that is
1 page 3.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The organisational unit of the
3 joint Secretariat for Internal Affairs, from here on joint secretariat, is
4 obliged to inform the organ of internal affairs on all events and
5 occurrences, as provided for with this instruction, immediately opinion
6 learning of the event or occurrence."
7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Could you read item 7 which also refers to the organisational
10 A. "Organisational unit of the joint secretariat, on the basis of
11 gathered and received data and information, during a period of 24 hours,
12 until the beginning of work hours, drafts a daily report on the situation
13 and events in its region that are of importance for engaging workers and
14 for their activities and should inform the authorised officials in the
15 organisational unit and the joint secretariat."
16 Q. Thank you. You spent a certain amount of time at the public
17 security station in Benkovac. Did that station inform the higher
18 instance, the Secretariat for Internal Affairs in Knin?
19 A. Yes, we did report to them.
20 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Was that in accordance with this
22 A. Yes, it was in accordance with this instruction.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] And now can we look at article
25 or item 9 of this document. It's page 3 in the B/C/S and in English it's
1 on page 4. Item 9 is at the very top of this page. Can we look at that,
2 please. Can you -- thank you.
3 Q. Sir, can you read item 9 of this document?
4 A. "All more important events, occurrences, and measures taken should
5 be urgently passed on by the internal affairs organ to the Ministry of
6 Internal Affairs."
7 Q. Thank you. You talked about the organs within the Ministry of
8 Internal Affairs starting from police stations, then public security
9 stations, SUPs, all the way up to the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Do
10 you have information whether this duty to report on all things happening
11 in the field was in force? Did that exist?
12 A. It was the duty to report on all undertaken actions and measures,
13 and I can say that we did fulfil this obligation. I'm not aware that
14 there were any organisational units that did not carry out their reporting
15 duties because this was something that they were obliged to do; and if
16 this was not done, then the person in charge would have to deal with that
17 immediately in order to resolve that matter.
18 Q. At the beginning when we first looked at this document you read
19 out item 32, which states that on the day that this instruction goes into
20 effect, the instruction on reporting is no longer in effect. This is the
21 previous instruction that was in force in the old Yugoslavia, which went
22 into effect in 1974. Do you remember whether this instruction contained
23 some provisions, such as this one that relate to reporting?
24 A. I think that the instruction from 1974 also contained such
25 provisions and that most of this material is practically identical, it's
2 Q. Can you tell us what, in your opinion, was the objective of this
3 instruction. What is the sense, what is the purpose of its existence?
4 A. In my opinion, this instruction aims to ensure that the leadership
5 of higher or larger organisational units is informed about the situation
6 in the field, which measures were being taken, so that the superior organs
7 can monitor events and the activities and conduct of internal affairs
8 staff out in the field. So the leadership was supervising what the
9 subordinates were doing.
10 Q. And respecting this instruction, did that contribute to
11 maintaining law and order or not? What do you think?
12 A. The existence of this instruction did improve the work of internal
13 affairs organs and contributed to better control over lower-ranking
14 stations. Thus, it improved the work of all sectors of internal affairs
15 and in all assignments.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] May I tender this document into
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
20 please be given an exhibit number?
21 Mr. Milovancevic, while we are at this point, can I ask you how
22 much longer are you going to be? You estimated seven hours for this
23 witness, and you have gone far beyond seven hours.
24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe another 15
25 minutes. I just have another two documents to go through. I'm very close
1 to the end, and I'll try to use my time as efficiently as possible.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: And we must talk about what you plan to do because
3 you have taken the entire seven hours alone and more, which seven hours we
4 had cut down to four.
5 MR. WHITING: I think actually we're about at ten hours now, over
6 ten hours of direct examination.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are over ten hours.
8 You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become exhibit
10 number 893.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. In response to the Defence's questions you said the police wore
14 uniforms. Did they also wear insignia?
15 A. Yes. They were required to wear emblems of rank and position on
16 their uniforms.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at a Prosecution
19 document from the 65 ter list number 748. This document is
20 entitled "rules of procedure concerning emblems of rank, position, and the
21 uniforms of authorised officers of the organs of internal affairs."
22 Q. Do you see this title?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please turn to page 7
25 in B/C/S, and that would be page 10 in English, just to see when this
1 document originated.
2 [Microphone not activated].
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry about this.
5 Q. You can see the date and the author.
6 A. This document was created on the 22nd of June, 1993, and the
7 author is Minister Milan Martic.
8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now go back to the front
9 page and then look at page 2, which is also 2 in English. Article 2 is at
10 the very bottom of this page. Can we look at the bottom of this first
11 page? That's it.
12 Q. In article 2 it is stipulated that for certain positions or
13 titles, certain insignia are prescribed. Some of them are described on
14 this page and others on page 2 in B/C/S.
15 To save time, I will put to you the various titles that police
16 officers had in SAO Krajina. One of them is junior policeman, then
17 policeman of first class, senior policeman, and all the way to independent
18 inspector, senior inspector, senior inspector first class, and chief
19 inspector. I want to ask you: Are you aware that these titles existed in
20 the Ministry of the Interior? Of course I mean the Republic of Serbian
22 A. These titles did exist in the Ministry of the Interior of the
23 Serbian Krajina, but the titles from junior police officers to the senior
24 officer first class are those of authorised officers with secondary
25 education, whereas the ones above senior inspector first class up to the
1 chief inspector required a degree, a university degree.
2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move on to page 4 in
3 B/C/S, which is 7 in English.
4 Q. Here under the subheading "uniform" we see article 6 describing
5 the summer uniform for the MUP of Serbian Krajina, and it says: "Cap,
6 beret, shirt, trousers with belt, and light shirt."
7 It goes on to say that there is an Nemanjic coat of arms on the
8 beret and a wind-breaker, as well as the emblem or patch with the
9 lettering "Milicija Krajina," police of Krajina, for the left sleeve. It
10 says that the camouflage uniform is of a dark colour, and it says: "When
11 performing special assignments or missions, authorised officers may use
12 fatigues as a uniform of a dark blue camouflage design."
13 Are you aware that the camouflage uniform for the police of
14 Krajina was precisely like this?
15 A. Yes, I am aware of that.
16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at page 6 of this
17 document in B/C/S; in English it would be page 9 and 10.
18 Q. Those are transitional and final provisions. It says: "Emblems
19 of title and rank worn by authorised officers in keeping with the
20 descriptions above shall be replaced with emblems of title and rank, as
21 stipulated in these rules of procedure."
22 My question is: Until the entry into force of these rules, did
23 there exist another document that stipulated the uniforms, the titles, and
24 rank insignia for members of the MUP of Krajina?
25 A. Yes. Before we used to have a set of rules regulating these
1 matters and we complied with it.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at our last
4 document and that will be the end of your examination-in-chief. It's
5 Exhibit 511. The title of the document --
6 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I just may be of assistance. I
7 don't believe that that last document was admitted into evidence, and we
8 would certainly consent to it being admitted into evidence.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.
10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to thank my
11 learned friend. I thought it was already an exhibit and it isn't. May I
12 tender it now?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The document is admitted into
14 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become exhibit number 894.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You now see a Prosecution document bearing the title "list of
19 staff members of the SUP of Knin who entered into employment for an
20 indefinite period of time from 1990 to date."
21 To find our way more easily through this document, documents are
22 arranged by months, but in inverse order starting from December 1992 down
23 to 1990. It's perhaps not the best kind of order, but the document could
24 not be shown differently than in the form in which we received it?
25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 5198. The
1 first page is 5197, the following one is 5198, and in English it's page 2.
2 Can we just see the middle of this text. Here. Thank you. That's it.
3 Q. Now, above this set of three names we see some numbers. Can you
4 read that for us, please, Witness. Does it say 11/92 and 12/92?
5 A. Yes, I can see 11/92 and 12/92.
6 Q. Below each of these there is a set of names, and next to each name
7 there is a date. Let me remind you this is a list of employees who were
8 admitted into employment, and that must be the date when they were
9 employed. In the first group, all the dates were from November 1992, and
10 in the second set all the dates were from December 1992.
11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 5216.
12 In English it's page 26.
13 MR. WHITING: Just -- I think this shouldn't be broadcast. I
14 don't know if it's being broadcast by the booth, but the document should
15 not by broadcast.
16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Thank you. Should
17 we move into private session?
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe we should do that after the break, don't you
20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] We'll be done in five minutes,
21 Your Honour. Let us take the break now and after the break I'll finish.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 We'll take the break and come back at quarter to 11.00.
24 Court adjourned.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.
3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would kindly ask
4 you to move into private session for a moment because of the document I'm
5 intending to present.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
7 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.
1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. With regard to the document we've just seen, can you tell us
3 whether the list refers to the period when you transferred to the public
4 security station in Knin?
5 A. Yes, that period as well.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 5212
8 in B/C/S. That is a list of employees who signed employment contracts
9 between the 1st of January, 1991 until the 31st of December, 1991. In
10 English it's 19 to 25, beginning with page 19 until 25.
11 Q. You see before you a list of employees whose employment contracts
12 date back to January, the 1st of January, 1991?
13 A. Yes, I see it.
14 Q. It has several pages.
15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the bottom of the
16 page to see how many people there are on the list? Thank you.
17 Can we turn the page now, see the next page in B/C/S. This page
18 is all right as well. We are now on page 4 of the document. Let us see
19 the bottom of the page to see how many employees are concerned.
20 Q. What is the last number you see on the list?
21 A. 147.
22 Q. Can you tell us the name of the person under 147?
23 A. Petar Veselinovic.
24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in English this is
25 on page 21 because the pages are not exactly in the proper order. That's
1 the way they were typed. So on page 21 you should be able to see the end
2 of this document showing that the last number is 147.
3 Have you found it, Your Honours? I hope so.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. According to this document, how many people began working full
7 time on -- in January 1991?
8 A. In January 1991, 147 workers started to work for an indefinite
9 period of time.
10 Q. Thank you. In relation to the previous composition of the police
11 station, is this a large increase?
12 A. This number, yes, would constitute an increase.
13 Q. Can you tell us why such a large number of people came to the
14 public security station in Knin. Do you have any information about that?
15 Were these policemen?
16 A. Many people came to the Knin SUP. They were all authorised
17 officials from towns on the Croatian coast or from Zagreb or from other
18 towns where the Krajina authorities were not in charge, and according to
19 what they said they could no longer live there and work there so they
20 came --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just tell us why, not where they came from. We
22 haven't got much time now.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They came because they felt that
24 they could no longer work in those towns and live there. They were in
25 danger. They were harassed, so they crossed into the RSK.
1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Thank you. And the last question that I'm going to put to you,
3 Witness, is the following. You were a member of the Ministry of the
4 Internal Affairs in the 1990-1995 period when the RSK was in existence.
5 In that period of time, did you manage to see any kind of parallel system
6 of authority which would be in competition with yours and which threatened
7 you? Can you please answer with yes or no?
8 A. No, I didn't notice anything like that.
9 Q. Thank you very much.
10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has
11 no further questions.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 Mr. Whiting.
14 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honours. I believe we're in private
15 session still, and we can go into public session.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are in public session.
17 MR. WHITING: Oh, we are in public session. Okay.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Whiting:
19 Q. Good morning, sir.
20 A. Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.
21 Q. Let me introduce myself. My name is Alex Whiting. You obviously
22 have figured out in the days that you've been here that I'm one of the
23 Prosecutors in the case.
24 I hope you don't mind me saying that I notice that sometimes you
25 give rather lengthy answers, and I'm going to ask when -- in response to
1 my questions that you try, please, very much to focus on the question that
2 I'm asking and answer only the question that I'm asking. Do you
4 A. Yes, I understand. But in order to clarify the situation for all
5 of us, in order to fulfil the goal of my testimony here, sometimes I
6 believe that I need to give a slightly more -- broader answer.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: If we need a broader answer, the Prosecutor will
8 ask for a broader answer. Just answer the question that he asks and stop
10 MR. WHITING:
11 Q. And just want to warn you, I won't be shy about interrupting you.
12 Now, sir, you testified on the very first day that you were here
13 that 90 per cent of the inhabitants of the Knin municipality were Serbs
14 and that the head of the police in that area would usually be a Serb and
15 his deputy would be a Croat. Do you remember that testimony?
16 A. Yes, I remember.
17 Q. And I take it from that, from what you testified to, that there's
18 a connection between those two facts. The -- a Serb was designated as the
19 chief of the -- of the police in the Knin municipality because the
20 municipality was comprised of 90 per cent Serbs. Isn't that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, you also testified that from what you knew that it is
23 certain - and you used the word "certain" - that there were more Croats on
24 the police force than Serbs. That's at 6724. Do you remember that
25 testimony, sir?
1 A. Sir, the question is not clear to me that there were more Croats
2 than Serbs. I either made a slip of the tongue or there's a mistake in
3 the transcript. I said that at that time there were more Serbs than
4 Croats at the Knin police station.
5 Q. I'm sorry. There was a confusion there. I'm not talking about
6 the Knin police station; I'm talking about in all of Croatia. You were
7 answering a question about the composition of the police in all of
8 Croatia, and you testified that you were certain that there were more
9 Croat policemen in Croatia than Serb policemen. Do you remember that
11 A. Yes, I remember. Now it's clear that you meant the whole of
12 Croatia, yes.
13 Q. And as you sit here today, you are certain of that fact. Correct?
14 A. I think that that's how it was, yes.
15 Q. No, sir. I didn't ask you if you were -- think that's how it was.
16 I asked you are you were certain of that fact as you sit here today. You
17 used that word in direct examination. Are you certain of that fact?
18 A. Yes, I'm certain.
19 Q. In fact, isn't it true that Serbs made up at least 60 per cent of
20 the police force in Croatia at that time? Isn't that the fact, sir?
21 A. I am not aware of that fact, no.
22 Q. Well, I'm going to show you a segment of an interview with the
23 accused, Milan Martic, which he gave when he was president of the RSK in
24 October of 1994. It's in evidence as Exhibit 497.
25 MR. WHITING: And I'm going to ask that we -- is there -- I'm
1 going to ask that we switch over to the Sanction to watch this clip.
2 [Videotape played]
3 MR. WHITING:
4 Q. Sir, having seen now Mr. Martic talking about this subject, do you
5 accept that you are wrong and that in fact Serbs made up 60 per cent of
6 the police force in Croatia?
7 A. I don't know where Mr. Martic got this information from, but if
8 you have the official information about percentage of 60 -- 60 per cent of
9 Serbs in the MUP at that time in Croatia, I will accept it.
10 Q. That wasn't my question, sir. My question is: Now that you've
11 seen Mr. Martic speak about it, are you still certain about what you
12 testified about?
13 A. Yes, I would stand by what I said, yes.
14 Q. Well, let's look at another document. I'm going to show you a
15 report from Human Rights Watch which reported the figures from the
16 Croatian government. And it is --
17 MR. WHITING: If it could be called up on the e-court. It's
18 00276596. I hope that's sufficient to -- I don't believe we have a -- a
19 translation in B/C/S of this document, but I'm just going to rely on a
20 sentence here. If we could go to page 23 of the document. And if we
21 could go to the top of the page, please.
22 Q. In that first full paragraph, the third sentence says, and I'll
23 just read it slowly. It says: "According to the Croatian Ministry of the
24 Interior, Serbs accounted for approximately 75 per cent of the Croatian
25 police force, despite the fact that they comprised only 11.5 per cent of
1 the republic's population."
2 Okay, now that you've seen Mr. Martic's view of the figures and
3 you've seen a report about the Croatian Ministry of Interior's view, do
4 you question your own information, that the Croats made -- were -- there
5 were more Croats in the police department -- in the police in Croatia?
6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that it
7 would be useful also if the Prosecutor were to tell the witness the date
8 of the report itself and to which period this information relates to.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought this document relates to the period
10 during the communist era. It says: "During the communist era a vast
11 majority of the police officers in Croatia were Serbian." I don't know --
12 MR. WHITING: Well, to be fair, I didn't read that sentence to the
13 witness so he couldn't be aware of that. But yes, the document is dated
14 September 1991, but this is about the communist era, presumably 1990 and
16 Q. Now that you have that information, sir, do you think that perhaps
17 you were wrong in -- in your own information?
18 A. When I see this document it's not clear to me -- you say that it
19 refers to the communist period, that is also 1946, 1950, and 1990. I was
20 talking about 1990, the beginning of the events in the Knin Krajina, and
21 then knowing the situation at the place where I worked, which was a large
22 body. And if I were to use that as a sample in order to analyse the
23 entire composition in Croatia, then --
24 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you for a moment. I'm sorry. The
25 document I've shown you is not about 1946/1950. This is a document about
1 the events in Croatia in 1990/1991. So I put to you that the figure there
2 of 75 per cent is pertaining to 1990 and before.
3 Now, does the information that I have put to you cause you in any
4 way to question your own information about whether Croats or Serbs were
5 the majority in the police in Croatia, or are you still, having seen all
6 this, certain about what you testified about?
7 A. This report that is in English, and seeing that it was comprised
8 by Slavko Degoricija and Milan Brezak, this report is something that I do
9 not consider --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, please answer the question. We don't need
11 your comment on this report. Just say whether you stand by your answer or
12 you don't stand by your answer. That's -- the question is simple and
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by my answer.
15 MR. WHITING:
16 Q. Sir, given Mr. Martic's position within the SAO Krajina police and
17 the RSK, don't you think that he would have better information on these
18 topics than you did, or that you do?
19 A. I think that he could not have had better information, if we're
20 looking at 1990. I had better information because I was in touch with the
21 top leadership of the ministry of the Republic of Croatia at the time.
22 Q. So are you --
23 MR. WHITING: Yes?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's the date of that clip that we saw a couple
25 of minutes ago?
1 MR. WHITING: It's -- the interview was given on October of 1994.
2 Q. Sir, so are you saying then that when you gave the figure of --
3 that Croats were -- there were more Croats in the police within Croatia
4 than Serbs, that you were relying on figures provided by the Ministry of
5 the Interior of the Republic of Croatia at the time? Is that what I
6 understand from your last answer?
7 A. No. They didn't provide that data. This was confidential
8 information. I concluded that from --
9 Q. Yeah, please, tell me how it is you concluded that information.
10 What are you basing it on?
11 A. My information is based on my work in years before that, on many
12 years that I worked at a certain body in Croatia, and also on the basis of
13 analysis during my school days when we were undergoing training, based on
14 the structure of my class and similar classes while I was attending police
15 training school in Zagreb.
16 Q. So in other words, you extrapolated based on your classes how many
17 Croats versus how many Serbs were in the Croatian police department?
18 That's your testimony?
19 A. One of the indicators at the time was that we were completing our
20 education together, and I knew who was who. We were in a pretty equal
21 situation at the time.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're going to have to learn to answer the
24 The question to you is: Did you extrapolate that from your
25 classes on how many Croats versus how many Serbs there were in the
1 Croatian police department? The answer to that question is either a yes
2 or a no.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is yes.
4 MR. WHITING:
5 Q. And, sir, based on that personal analysis derived from your
6 classes, you told this Trial Chamber that you were certain of your
7 information and you stand by that information now?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want to find out something.
10 When -- what year were you told that in your class?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I attended the school in Zagreb from
12 1979 to -- from 1977 to 1979.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question is: In what year were you told that?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand. What was I
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You were going to school from 1977 to 1979. When
17 you got this information about the numbers of police in the force, was it
18 in 1977, in 1978, in 1979, in any one of those three years? Which one?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was attending school, there
20 were other students attending with me. So on the basis of who was what,
21 who belonged to which ethnic group, I knew more or less how many Serbs
22 there were, how many Croats were. On the basis of that experience as well
23 as on the basis of my work experience, I conclude that -- or I concluded
24 that the number of Serbs and Croats working in the MUP was more or less
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's your answer now?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Sir, during 1990 and 1991 you accept, do you not, that the
5 Croatian government was expanding the police force in Croatia?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You testified that in your view the security situation had not
8 deteriorated to the extent that new police were required, but you also
9 testified several times that as early as 1990 there were increased
10 tensions. You talked about major disorder in Benkovac that occurred in
11 March of 1990. You talked about a rally in Split that caused great
12 anxiety. Given those tensions and difficulties that were arising, isn't
13 it unsurprising that Croatia was expanding its police force?
14 A. The number of the police was regularly changing. Constantly new
15 people were joining the force. But such a change in numbers and including
16 more Croats in the police force, was something that was hard to
17 understand. And in my opinion, it was unjustified.
18 Q. Even given the tensions and disorders that you -- you yourself
19 testified about, and you talked about your own position that you assumed
20 in July 1990, that it carried with it a lot of responsibility and that
21 there was a lot of tension in the area. Even given all that testimony
22 that you have provided to this Trial Chamber, you still maintain that it
23 was hard to understand that Croatia would expand its police force?
24 A. Sir, at the time, if there was a need to employ new workers, this
25 was not something that called for very high numbers, but this was not
1 something that should have been done in the way that the Croatian MUP was
2 doing it, the way it was engaging new staff.
3 Q. Okay. So now your answer is that new staff was justified but not
4 so many and not in the way that it was done. Is that now your testimony?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please, Your
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
9 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
7 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Sir, in the position that you assumed in July 1990, it's fair to
9 say, isn't it, that you were trusted by your superiors. Isn't that
11 A. That is correct, yes.
12 Q. However, you testified on several occasions that you were
13 distrusted by some citizens of Knin because even though you were a Serb
14 they thought that you had been brought to Knin on behalf of the Croatian
15 authorities and that you were in fact a spy?
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. So it's fair to say that you were distrusted simply because you
18 were associated in these people's minds with the Croatian authorities.
19 Isn't that right?
20 A. That's right, yes.
21 Q. In fact -- and I'm going to take a brief diversion here. You
22 testified that you were called an Ustasha simply because you had tried to
23 calm a crowd on August 17th, 1990 that had gathered in anger over Martic's
24 suspension. Isn't that right?
25 A. Sir, if I were to answer just with yes or no, then I will not
1 really be able to provide the true answers because to me it seems more to
2 be a leading question. Because if you permit me, Your Honours, to at
3 least explain a little bit --
4 Q. Please, I'm going to interrupt you, sir, because -- and I
5 understand that you're -- you may not be familiar with the system, but I
6 get to ask leading questions. That's my job in these proceedings. It's
7 different from when Defence counsel's asking you questions. So, yes, it's
8 a leading question.
9 Now, if you could just yes or no, you were called -- and I can
10 read your testimony if you like, and then if you want to provide a brief
11 explanation I'll permit you to do that. But yes or no, you were called an
12 Ustasha, weren't you, in August of 1990 by the crowd?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you have an explanation? Briefly, please.
1 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I may, I think it would be prudent
2 to redact that last answer.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 MR. WHITING:
5 Q. Sir, if I can remind you, please, to take care, as best you can,
6 not to refer to your position.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May that answer, starting at page 44, lines 12
8 to 22, please be deleted. Thank you.
9 MR. WHITING:
10 Q. Now, sir, I wasn't really asking about that. What I was asking
11 about is the -- what I was focussing in on is the fact that you were
12 called an Ustasha. Now, you were not an Ustasha, were you?
13 A. No, I was not, not then and not now.
14 Q. And you would agree with me, I take it, that that term "Ustasha"
15 is a pretty -- was a pretty inflammatory term at the time. You would
16 agree with me, right?
17 A. Yes, I agree completely.
18 Q. And you would agree with me also that based on your personal
19 experience that this term was obviously used to describe people who were
20 not in fact Ustashas. Isn't that correct?
21 A. That's correct too.
22 Q. And you would agree with me that when Serb leaders described the
23 Croatian government again and again and again as an Ustasha government,
24 that that made the Serb people afraid, didn't it?
25 A. Not quite.
1 Q. Well, why not?
2 A. I remember that time when Mr. Raskovic made public appearances and
3 he divided in his speeches the Croat people into good Croats and into bad
4 Croats, whom he called Ustashas.
5 Q. Let's go back to my question, sir. When the leaders, the Serb
6 leaders, in the Krajina, Mr. Raskovic, Mr. Babic, Mr. Martic, when they
7 described the government of Croatia as an Ustasha government, that made
8 Serbs afraid, didn't it?
9 A. I am not aware of their motivation for calling the Croatian
10 government --
11 Q. I'm going to interrupt you, sir. I didn't ask you about the
12 motivation. I did not ask you anything about the motivation. I asked you
13 about the effect that it had on the Serbian people. They're being told by
14 their leaders that the government of Croatia is an Ustasha government.
15 That made them afraid, didn't it?
16 A. Yes, that caused fear.
17 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony you said -- you testified that
18 before the first multi-party elections in 1990 that -- and I'm going to
19 quote from your testimony here. You said: "All the parties that were
20 founded were, for the most part, nationalist parties and their rallies
21 were -- had a sort of nationalist tone. All of them propagated being
22 freed or liberated from something."
23 And that's at 6719.
24 Now, you talked -- you then went on to talk about the HDZ, but
25 that was also true of the principal party on the Serb side, the SDS,
1 wasn't it? It was also a nationalist party; wouldn't you agree with that,
3 A. I would agree with it.
4 Q. Sir, let's get back to the situation in Knin in July of 1990, and
5 you've told us that you were distrusted by some of the people in Knin and
6 you gave an explanation for why that was. Now, isn't it a fact that you
7 were also distrusted by -- for some of the same reasons by some of the
8 Serb officers within the police in Knin? Isn't that also true, sir?
9 A. That's possible, although we never discussed it.
10 Q. No, I'm not asking if it's possible. You know it to be true,
11 don't you, sir?
12 A. It's possible. I don't know. I never discussed it. I never
13 discussed whether anybody trusted me or not.
14 Q. Well, let's -- let's look at a prior statement that you made to
15 the OTP.
16 MR. WHITING: And I'd ask the assistance of the usher to provide
17 this statement to the witness and to the Trial Chamber. I'm going to use
18 it in hard copy. I think it's much easier than trying to put it on the
20 Q. Sir, do you have a copy of this statement in your own language
21 before you?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. I'm going to ask you -- do you also have the English version?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Could you look, please, at page 10 of the English version. There
1 is a --
2 MR. WHITING: I could just have a moment.
3 Q. Sir, because you have protective measures, we redacted your -- the
4 name on the last page. So I'm going to have to give you -- for this
5 purpose, I'm going to have to give you an unredacted version.
6 MR. WHITING: And if I could again have the assistance of the
8 Q. Now, sir, if you could look at the last page, page 10 of the
9 English, it's called "witness acknowledgement." And in English it
10 says: "This statement has been read over to me in the Serbian language
11 and is true to the best of my knowledge and recollection."
12 And is that your signature there? And don't say the name, but is
13 that your signature there dated 18 September 2000?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Now, I'd like to look --
16 MR. WHITING: Well, we'll have to go into private session for this
17 purpose, please, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
19 [Private session]
11 Page 6999 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 MR. WHITING:
16 Q. And, sir, isn't it fair to say that the distrust also went the
17 other way. You did not completely trust those policemen in Knin who had
18 signed the petition in July of 1990, did you?
19 A. I don't know. I don't know what you mean when you say I didn't
20 trust them. My attitude to them was the same as to all other employees of
21 the station, and you could see that that was my approach from the way I
22 gave them assignments.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Stay on the question. You should know whether you
24 did or did not distrust them, irrespective of what your attitude towards
25 them may have been. Just answer the question. Did you or did you not
1 distrust some of them?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be precise, I did not have
3 absolute trust in anybody. I was cautious with every employee of the Knin
4 SUP when I arrived.
5 MR. WHITING:
6 Q. But, sir --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why then does it take you several questions before
8 you answer? Why don't you answer these questions the first time they're
9 asked honestly? You said: "To be precise, I did not have absolute
10 trust ..." Why do you become precise only after several questions?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when the honourable
12 Prosecutor asks me a question, he usually seeks a yes or no answer. But
13 these matters are not black and white.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question is a very straightforward one. The
15 question had been: You did not trust some of the police that had signed
16 the petition.
17 And your answer was: I don't know what you mean.
18 What is the difficulty in that question?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's difficult because the question
20 was phrased: You did not trust some of them. I said that I did not trust
21 anybody, at least not absolutely, and I was very cautious in my position.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then the first time you should have said: In fact,
23 I mistrusted all of them. But to say: I don't know what you mean, what
24 is it that you didn't understand in that question?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand the reference
1 to "some of them." Who was meant? There was several different groups.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Nobody explained to you what "some of them" meant.
3 How did you then finally come to say: To be precise, I did not trust all
4 of them?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know anyone at that Knin
6 police station when I arrived, and some problems had begun before with
7 assigning of --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not answering my question. My question is
9 simply: Nobody explained to you what the word "some" means. How then do
10 you finally come to say: No, actually, it's not some, it's all of them?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I mistrusted everyone in
12 that police station.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not answering my question. My question is:
14 How then do you understand the word "some" without it being explained to
15 you? To be able to know that in fact it is not some that you mistrusted
16 but all.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when the Prosecutor
18 asked me: Isn't it true that you didn't trust some people, I didn't
19 understand what kind of trust he meant, whether it concerned my job or
20 some parts of my job. But the truth is I didn't trust anyone, at least
21 not absolutely.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: He didn't ask -- he didn't say "some people," he
23 said "some members of the police in Knin" and specified them specifically,
24 those who signed the petition. You knew exactly what he was talking
25 about, didn't you?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand him at that
2 moment --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which moment did you understand him?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later, when I started giving a
5 broader answer and when we started narrowing things down and clarifying,
6 then I understood.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which broader answer did you give that made you
8 understand and where was the narrowing?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I started talking about the
10 time when I arrived, the situation I found there at the station, the
11 earlier --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... he's just
13 asked you about the mistrust of the police who signed the petition, and
14 since then he hasn't talked about the time when you arrived.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really don't know
16 what to say anymore. What do you want me to say?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, you say what you want to say, but please
18 answer my questions. My question to you from the beginning which caused
19 this whole discussion between you and I was -- or in fact it was a
20 statement -- no, it was a question: Why does it take you several
21 questions to answer a question? Why don't you answer questions directly.
22 That was my question. And you gave all these sorts of explanations. Now
23 you say you don't know what explanations to give. I guess you also don't
24 know what explanations you have been giving me. Am I right?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I wish to give a
1 precise answer, I also provide a broader context so that you can
2 understand the situation. From now on, I will give shorter and narrower
3 answers, if you want me to.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what we've been asking you to do. And just
5 answer questions and don't try to hide by saying you don't understand
6 words that are obviously known to you. You do know what the word "some"
7 means, don't you?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do know what "some" means, don't you? The
10 answer is either yes or no. You said you were going to give short
11 answers. Give me a short answer.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Now, sir, you've now testified that you had some distrust of all
16 the members of the police department, but that's not true, is it? You
17 told us yourself that when you received the order from Sibenik to seize
18 the reserve weapons of Knin, that you asked the assistance of several of
19 the employees who had not signed the petition. That appears at 6759.
20 Do you remember that testimony, sir?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. And that is in distinction -- that was different from other --
23 other assignments. For example, the -- you had testified about the
24 assignment at Srb in July of 1990, and there you said that you picked --
25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned friend
1 from the Prosecution quoted a part of the witness's statement, and I don't
2 know if he quoted it very precisely. The witness spoke about matching one
3 employee who did sign that petition with another who didn't, sending them
4 to one and the same assignment. And he also said that he treated all his
5 underlings equally. Could my learned friend show us exactly that passage
6 in the statement that shows that he was looking precisely for an employee
7 who had not signed the petition?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.
9 MR. WHITING: I cited it in my question. It's at 6759. And when
10 I read the question, I was quoting from the testimony of the witness, and
11 the witness in fact confirmed that this was his testimony.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, do you still have a question --
13 an objection?
14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Now, that was different -- you did it different -- you did things
18 differently with that assignment than with previous assignments; for
19 example, the assignment regarding the Serb National Council in Srb.
20 There, as I think Defence counsel was referring to, you picked half
21 individuals who had signed the petition and half who had not. Isn't that
23 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, I didn't get an answer. Did --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: He's waiting for the translation maybe.
25 MR. WHITING:
1 Q. Have you -- sir, did you hear the question? Did you understand
2 the question?
3 The question is that on previous assignments you did it
4 differently. You assigned members who had signed the petition along with
5 members who had not signed the petition. Isn't that right?
6 A. Your Honours, the sound of interpretation I was getting was
7 interrupted and then I got a repeated question. Could the Prosecutor give
8 me the question again briefly because I want to give a precise answer.
9 Q. That's fine, and it's --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe just quote that 67 and deal with that before
11 you deal with the -- of removing that --
12 MR. WHITING: Yes, that's fine, Your Honour.
13 Q. Let's go back to the beginning of this line of questioning, and
14 it's at 6759 of the transcript, that when you received the order from
15 Sibenik to seize the reserve weapons of Knin you asked "the assistance of
16 several of the employees who had not signed that petition back then."
17 Do you remember that testimony?
18 A. I remember that part of my testimony. Let me just say that on
19 that occasion I asked the assistance of one man and only in accordance
20 with the orders and recommendation of the command.
21 Q. Sir, I'm going to remind you of the instruction from the Trial
22 Chamber. Please just answer the question -- you fully answered that
23 question when you said: "I remember that part of my testimony," and the
24 explanation was unnecessary to respond to the question, okay? And your
25 job as a witness here is simply to respond to the questions, not to argue
1 or try to provide context. Just please respond to the questions.
2 Now, the approach that you described there at -- relying on the
3 assistance of -- and you said: "Several of the employees who had not
4 signed the petition back then," that was different from the approach that
5 you had taken on prior occasions when in fact you used half people who had
6 signed the petition and half people who had not signed the petition.
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. And the reason you took a different approach in August of 1990
10 with respect to seizing the weapons from Knin is that for that assignment
11 you could not fully trust those members of the police who had signed the
12 petition. Isn't that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You also testified that there was a petition circulating around
15 Knin with the names of the eight policemen who did not sign the petition.
16 Do you remember that testimony? It's at 6741.
17 A. I remember, yes.
18 Q. And that petition was designed, was it not, to put pressure on
19 those policemen to sign the petition, wasn't it?
20 A. Probably.
21 Q. In fact, you told us that -- and this is at 6801, that these
22 officers nearly got killed, nearly got lynched, in the days after
23 August 17th, and that they had to escape out of the back-door of the
24 police station. Isn't that right? Do you remember that testimony?
25 A. I remember not all eight of them were at the station. There was
1 some of them, yes, that is correct, and it's correct that they had to
3 Q. Now, sir, given what we have just been talking about, about the
4 fact that there were members of the police in Knin who did not trust you
5 and that you did not completely trust the members of the police department
6 yourself, would you accept the possibility that you were not informed
7 about everything that was going on in the police department at that time?
8 A. It's possible. I can't definitely say that it was so, but it's
10 Q. So you accept the -- that possibility?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you learn, for example, when you arrived in July of 1990 that
13 Milan Martic had been secretly preparing the Serb policemen in Knin in
14 fight the Croatian authorities from as early as January or February of
15 1990? Did you learn that fact when you arrived or were you not informed
16 of that fact?
17 A. I wasn't informed, and this is the first time that I am hearing
18 that statement.
19 Q. I'm going to play for you another clip from the interview that
20 Mr. Martic gave in October of 1994, and again this was -- he gave this
21 interview while he was president of the RSK. This is in evidence as
22 Exhibit 497.
23 MR. WHITING: And if we could switch to the Sanction, please.
24 Q. And I'll put to you -- I'm not going to play -- I wanted to just
25 play a short clip, but I'll put to you that this refers in the interview
1 to the period of January 1990. It's the first half of 1990.
2 MR. WHITING: If we could play that clip.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. WHITING:
5 Q. Sir, now that you've seen that clip --
6 MR. WHITING: And just for the purposes of the record it's on
7 page 3 of the -- that clip is from page 3 of the transcript which is in
8 evidence of -- in Exhibit 497.
9 Q. Now that you've seen that clip, do you accept that this was
10 happening and that you were not aware of it, that Mr. Martic was
11 organising the police and that it was something that you were not aware
13 A. If that's what he says, I accept that.
14 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think this is a convenient time for
15 the break. Thank you, Your Honour. I believe. Am I right?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
17 MR. WHITING: I've got a minute, but I'm about to start another
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 We'll take a break now and come back at half past 12.00.
21 Court adjourned.
22 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.
25 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 Q. Sir, when you came to the Knin police department in July of 1990,
2 were you informed that a couple weeks before, around the 5th of July of
3 1990, that some high-level Croatian officials, including the Minister of
4 Interior, Josip Boljkovic, and also his associate, and also Ante Bujas
5 from Sibenik had come to Knin to meet and negotiate with Milan Martic and
6 the other Serb policemen who had signed that petition? Were you made
7 aware of this?
8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at least that's
9 the interpretation I heard, the minister of internal affairs is Josip
10 Boljkovac not Boljkovic. I wasn't following the English, so I don't know
11 what my learned friend from the Prosecution said, but I just wanted to
12 make sure that the correction is put in now and not later.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.
14 He said the minister was Boljkovac not Boljkovic.
15 MR. WHITING: I meant to say Boljkovac but it's very possible that
16 I mispronounced it.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you now understand who we are talking about,
18 Witness? We are talking about Boljkovac?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, I understand, yes.
20 MR. WHITING:
21 Q. Now with that clarification, were you made aware that this meeting
22 had taken place around the 5th of July, 1990?
23 A. Yes, I was.
24 Q. Were you made aware of the fact that the Croat authorities
25 required the protection of the Serb policemen in order to leave the
1 meeting unharmed? Did you know that?
2 A. No, I didn't know that.
3 Q. Did you know that from the -- at least from the point of view or
4 from the perspective of the policemen who had signed the petition, which
5 was as you told us all but eight of the policemen in Knin, that they
6 believed after that meeting that the Croat authorities had no real
7 authority anymore in Knin. Did you know that? Were you told that?
8 A. No, I wasn't told that.
9 Q. Well, I'm going to show you another clip. It's from the same
10 interview. It's --
11 MR. WHITING: Just for the record, it appears on page 13 of the
12 transcript of the interview, which is Exhibit 497. And if we could switch
13 to the Sanction, please, for this.
14 [Videotape played]
15 MR. WHITING:
16 Q. So you weren't told those things that Mr. Martic just said when
17 you arrived in Knin in July of 1990, around the 12th or 13th of July, you
18 weren't told about that?
19 A. No. (redacted)
21 Q. I'm going to interrupt you. You fully answered that question when
22 you said the word "no." And the additional explanation about another
23 event is not required. Now --
24 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, is there a --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Judge Hoepfel was suggesting we delete that
1 answer -- that part of the answer which you don't want where he -- where
2 the witness refers to his position as ...
3 MR. WHITING: Yes. I'm very grateful. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 Can we redact that line, that is page 61, line 12 to 13, except
6 the "no."
7 MR. WHITING: May I proceed, Your Honour?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may.
9 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Sir, would you accept that in fact you did not know everything
11 that was happening in the Knin public security station in -- at that time
12 when you were there? Would you accept that, sir?
13 A. It's possible.
14 Q. Well, it's more than just possible, isn't it, sir? Having seen
15 how Mr. Martic -- unless you believe that Mr. Martic isn't telling the
16 truth or is making it up. Having seen how Mr. Martic talked about that
17 time period and having told us what you knew and what you didn't know,
18 would you accept now that you did not know everything that was happening
19 in the Knin police department at the time you were there in July of 1990?
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Whiting, sorry, did you not just say that the
21 witness arrived in Knin a week after, around a week after that meeting?
22 So that your question would refer to the days before his arrival?
23 MR. WHITING: Yes. I -- I'm grateful, Your Honour. I would like
24 to --
25 Q. Let me put the question to you a little bit more broadly.
1 At that time when you arrived, in the days -- would you accept
2 that you were not aware of everything that had happened before your
4 A. No, I wasn't aware of the events before my arrival.
5 Q. And you testified that in connection with the events in August of
6 1991, that some days after August 17th that Milan Martic said and that --
7 and it was -- I believe it was televised that "as long as he was in charge
8 of the police, the chequer-board would never get in Knin."
9 This appears at 6802. You remember that testimony?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Are you aware -- were you made aware of the fact that he said very
12 similar words, almost identical to that, the day of or the day after the
13 meeting with the Croatian authorities on July 5th of 1990? Are you aware
14 of that, sir?
15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Prosecutor in
16 his previous question mentioned the page number but did not quote the
17 statement. And now he's paraphrasing a speech. So it would be important
18 to have the actual sentence from the witness's response. I'm just
19 following the instructions that have been given.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Aren't you finding the speech at the page that he
21 cited, Mr. Milovancevic?
22 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I may be of assistance. I did quote
23 it word for word from that page --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Except that in your quotation you said "he"; you
25 didn't say "I."
1 MR. WHITING: Well, that's because I was quoting. That's because
2 I was quoting. I was being faithful to the text. In the text the way the
3 witness said it is -- the witness was quoting Milan Martic who said as
4 long as he, Milan Martic, was in charge.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. You are quoting the witness,
6 you are not quoting Milan Martic. Okay. That's fine.
7 The quotation is not a paraphrase according to Mr. Whiting.
8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at the time Martic
9 was not at the head of the police at all. We saw a video clip --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not the issue. The issue is the Prosecutor
11 is quoting the witness where the witness said: "As long as I am" -- where
12 is it?
13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I understood, Your Honour. I
14 understand what you are telling me. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- in charge."
16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The witness's statement is
17 being quoted, not a statement by Mr. Martic. Now I understand. I'm
18 sorry. Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.
20 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. But to be clear, the
21 witness in that statement was quoting Milan Martic, so ultimately it is a
22 statement by Milan Martic.
23 Q. Now, are you aware, sir, that -- were you made aware when you
24 arrived in the police station in July of 1990 that Mr. Martic had made a
25 very similar statement about the chequer-board never flying in Knin? I
1 believe there was a reference to the fort, it would never fly over the
2 fort, that he made that statement around July 5th of 1990? Are you
3 aware -- were you made aware of that, sir?
4 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.
5 Q. Now, I'm going to now move to some events that occurred while you
6 were in the police department in Knin in August of 1990. And I think it's
7 fair to say that you went to great lengths in your testimony to say that
8 the break-in of -- the break-in to the police station in Knin was -- to
9 get the reserve weapons was done by the citizens, by the people. Do you
10 recall that testimony?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. By the way, before I ask you any more questions about the break-in
13 to the police station, I want to ask you something else. The decision by
14 the Croatian authorities to take control of the reserve police weapons in
15 Knin, in Obrovac, in Benkovac, that was a lawful order, wasn't it? There
16 was nothing illegal about that order or that decision, was there?
17 A. Yes, yes, it was legal.
18 Q. So it's fair to say that anybody opposing that order, taking steps
19 to oppose the implementation of that order, would be breaking the law,
20 would be violating a lawful order. Is that correct, sir?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Now, are you -- are you aware that in April or May of 1990, the
23 JNA took control of the Croatian Territorial Defence weapons? Do you have
24 knowledge of that?
25 A. Yes, something from the media, from the press.
1 Q. Well, I'm going to show you a document just to see if you can
2 confirm its accuracy.
3 MR. WHITING: And it's again that -- the report from Human Rights
4 Watch from September of 1991, and the ERN again is 00276596, if we could
5 have that up again. And if we could go to page 23 again, please. And
6 could we go to the bottom of the page, please.
7 Q. Now, again, I don't have a B/C/S of -- version of this, so I'll
8 have to read it to you and it will be translated. In the last paragraph,
9 the second sentence, it says -- and I'm just going to ask you after I read
10 this if you can confirm its accuracy based on what you knew.
11 "However, a few weeks before Slovenia and Croatia voted out their
12 communist regimes in 1990, the Yugoslav army made efforts to confiscate
13 weapons which were part of Slovenia's and Croatia's Territorial Defence
14 units. In April 1990, just prior to the Croatian elections, the army
15 confiscated most of the republic's weapons."
16 Is that consistent with what you knew or heard at the time?
17 A. That's it more or less. I don't know if that's the specific time
18 period, but this did happen.
19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do have an
20 intervention. I don't know whether I would call it an objection, but it's
21 about inconsistency as far as the time is concerned.
22 In the previous remark, the Prosecutor said that the JNA
23 confiscated the weapons in April, but here Human Rights Watch says that it
24 was a few weeks before the vote on independence. I don't know what that
25 means because the decision on independence was taken in 1991. Elections
1 are one thing. This did take place in 1990, and they were multi-party
2 elections, but the vote on independence, at least that's how I understood
3 the question by the Prosecutor. We are now talking about a period of one
4 year. I don't know whether those two questions are connected.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's find out.
6 Yes, Mr. Whiting.
7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, with respect, I think Defence counsel
8 is confused. The -- the sentence it says -- it is about April of 1990,
9 and the sentence says: "A few weeks before Slovenia and Croatia voted out
10 their communist regimes in 1990 ..." It's not about the independence
11 declaration in 1991. It's about the multi-party elections in 1990.
12 And then the second sentence is very specific. It says: "In
13 April 1990, just prior to the Croatian elections, the army confiscated
14 most of the republic's weapons."
15 So I don't think there's any contradiction at all in the chapter.
16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Whiting.
18 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Now, just to go back to your answer, sir, before that
20 interruption, do I understand your answer to be that, yes, this happened.
21 The only thing you're not absolutely sure about is the exact time it
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. Now, if we could go back to the so-called break-in of the -- I
25 won't say "so-called." The break-in of the Knin public security station
1 to -- in August of 1990, did you ever learn that in fact the break-in to
2 seize the weapons was organised by Milan Martic and others and it was made
3 to look like the citizens had done it? Did you learn that fact, sir?
4 A. No, no, I didn't learn that. That was something that was never
5 indicated to me and I never heard that.
6 MR. WHITING: Before I go on on this topic, I failed -- could I
7 move into evidence the document that I was referring to, please?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document -- the one on the screen?
9 MR. WHITING: Yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document on the screen is admitted into
11 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become exhibit number 895.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 MR. WHITING:
15 Q. So you never heard that before? Before today you never heard
16 that, that Milan Martic had organised the break-in and made it look
17 like -- Milan Martic and others, and made it look like the public had done
19 A. No, I never heard of that.
20 Q. I'm going to go again to the interview that Mr. Martic gave in
21 October 1994. I'm going to rely on a transcript this time, and if we
22 could go -- if we could have Exhibit 496, please. And in English -- if we
23 could go on English to page 6 and also page 6 of the B/C/S, please.
24 And just to -- as a word of explanation about this transcript.
25 The questions -- the answers are recorded on this transcript but not the
1 questions -- whenever there's a question, it simply says "question." The
2 actual question is not recorded but the answer is transcribed. That's why
3 this sort of confusing nature of the transcript.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
5 MR. WHITING: Now, when I say "page 6," I mean page 6 on the
6 e-court page 6. I can give the ERN. The ERN is 550 -- that's it. That's
7 page 6.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
9 MR. WHITING: 5509. Is that also in the -- I can't -- yeah, okay.
10 Can we find -- would it be possible for the B/C/S, to shrink it
11 down so we can see the whole page, please?
12 Now -- and then focus in on the second half there where it
13 says: "On the 17th of August ..." There we go. And if we could blow up.
14 Q. Okay. And I'm just going to read there. On the -- this is Milan
15 Martic speaking. "On the 17th of August, two days before our referendum,
16 we got on info that Croatia with its police had started to disarm the
17 police stations in Serbian opstinas. In Knin we allowed them to disarm
18 us. In agreement with Raskovic and Babic, we decided to take all the
19 weapons from the storages of the reserve militia and we made a false
20 attempt as if the citizens broke into the storage. We took the arms and
21 from that moment I personally assumed the command over the roadblocks."
22 And then I'll go to the next answer, so if we could scroll down,
23 please, on the B/C/S.
24 He said: "I remember every detail when we agreed that I will be
25 in charge of the feigned break-in to the police station to take the
1 weapons and distribute them to the fighters. And I said to Dr. Babic: No
2 problem, I'll do that, and you proclaim the state of emergency."
3 MR. WHITING: I think we have to turn to the next page in B/C/S.
4 Q. And then I'm going to jump down to the bottom of the page in
6 "I went to the police station and" --
7 MR. WHITING: If we could turn to the next page in English.
8 "... and ordered that they feign the break-in. We took the
9 weapons and I left with the people and in Golubic distributed those
10 weapons to the fighters. About 300 rifles, and I created a battalion
11 apart from the regular police. Around 5.00 p.m. Dr. Babic proclaimed not
12 the state of emergency but the state of war and this entered history as
13 the proclamation of the state of war."
14 Q. Now, having seen this account from Mr. Martic about those events,
15 would you accept, sir, that even while you were at the police department
16 in Knin you did not know everything that was happening. Would you accept
18 A. Well, probably I didn't know.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But this figure of 300 rifles --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you know? It can't be probable that you knew.
22 You either knew or you didn't know.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if this is true, I didn't
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not the question. Did you know these things
1 that are mentioned here?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I didn't know this.
3 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Now, there's a reference to the distribution of weapons in Golubic
5 on that day, and we've had other testimony in this trial about that. Were
6 you aware, sir, that on the 17th of August, 1990, Milan Martic and others
7 distributed weapons in Golubic to reserve policemen?
8 A. As far as I know, reserve policemen had not been engaged by that
10 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you because that's an answer to a
11 different question than the question I put to you. The question I put to
12 you is: Did you know that Milan Martic distributed weapons to reserve
13 policemen on August 17th, 1990? Were you aware of that fact?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it to reserve police or is it to police apart
15 from the regular police?
16 MR. WHITING: I'm -- Your Honour, I'm relying on evidence that's
17 been given in this trial about that matter.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, you're not relying on this document?
19 MR. WHITING: No. I'll rephrase the question so that we don't
20 have that difficulty, Your Honour. I think I can rephrase it.
21 Q. Let me rephrase the question. Are you aware, sir, that on
22 August 17th, 1990 Milan Martic distributed weapons in Golubic?
23 A. No.
24 Q. So that's another thing you didn't know about. Is that right?
25 A. At that time, I didn't know it.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess you also did not know the people to whom
2 these weapons were distributed were people other than regular police?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know. My men were not
4 members of that section.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
6 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Now, you also testified in direct examination that you didn't
8 think that the police had anything to do with the barricades from the time
9 they appeared until January of 1991. Is that -- you recall -- is that
10 your testimony, sir?
11 A. Yes, that's true.
12 Q. But you also told us, didn't you, that after August 1990 you in
13 fact did not see Milan Martic around very much, did you?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And we just saw in this transcript of this interview that
16 Mr. Martic said that -- said: "I personally -- I personally assumed the
17 command over the roadblocks."
18 Did you see that in the interview, sir?
19 A. I can't see it now.
20 Q. Do you remember -- do you remember I read it out just a few
21 minutes ago. Do you remember me reading it out?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think it's on the previous page.
23 MR. WHITING: It is on the previous page. Thank you, Your Honour.
24 And it's 5509 in the English. You know, I'm not absolutely sure -- oh,
25 yeah, I think it's the last sentence on the B/C/S.
1 Q. Do you see, sir, where it says: "From that moment I personally
2 assumed the command over the roadblocks."
3 Do you see that, sir?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. And would you accept that that in fact was true and is simply
6 something you did not know, another thing that you did not know about at
7 the time? Would you accept that, sir?
8 A. I accept that.
9 Q. And isn't it true, sir, that in fact members of the Serbian -- let
10 me put this differently. Serb policemen appeared at -- helped man
11 roadblocks in the Krajina in Knin municipality after in -- after August
12 17th, 1990? Isn't that true, sir?
13 A. No, that's not correct. It's not true as far as I know.
14 Q. Well, if -- if I may, could we go back to your statement that you
15 gave in the year 2000, and I believe you still have it before you. And
16 I'd ask you to look at page 3 of the B/C/S, and it's page 3 of the
17 English. And there's a paragraph that begins -- on the English it's
18 the -- it's the third full paragraph, and the paragraph begins: "At the
19 same time, the order from Zagreb was to lift barricades ..."
20 And part way through that paragraph it says: "The police officers
21 justified the existence of the barricades and supported the people's
23 That's true, isn't it, sir? The police officers supported the
24 barricade, didn't they?
25 A. Part of the police officers just said so in daily conversations,
1 and that's what I meant when I -- when I stated that.
2 Q. So it's your testimony that Serb policemen did not stand by the
3 barricades and manned them during 1990 that you're aware of?
4 A. As far as I know, they did not actively participate at the
6 Q. And just so we're clear, if they were standing and manning the
7 barricades alongside with locals, you would call that actively
8 participating at the barricades, would you not?
9 A. I would call that active participation, if they stood guard,
10 stopped people in vehicles, checked papers, and performed other duties
11 normally performed at barricades, then I would call it active
12 participation. But to my knowledge none of them did that.
13 Q. Could this be something else that was happening; that is, police
14 were engaging in these activities but you did not know about it? Would
15 you accept that?
16 A. That's possible. I don't know what you mean.
17 Q. Well, I guess what I mean is that you did not -- you were in Knin.
18 You did not observe all of the barricades around the Knin municipality,
19 did you?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. So it's possible that police were participating in these ways and
22 you simply did not know about it. Isn't that possible? You would accept
23 that that's possible, right?
24 A. That, too, is possible.
25 Q. Now, I want to look at something else in your statement here.
1 It's on page -- it's still on page 3, and it's at the top of the page in
2 English. I can't tell you exactly where it is in the B/C/S. But the
3 paragraph begins: "The tensions were growing ..."
4 And this is a reference -- the time period is -- from the context
5 is August of 1990. And then it -- do you see that paragraph that
6 starts: "The tensions were growing. People were afraid, remembering mass
8 Have you found that paragraph on page 3, sir?
9 A. I can see it, yes.
10 Q. Okay. I just wanted to make sure you were with us.
11 And then it says: "People were afraid, remembering mass
12 slaughters of Serbs by Croats during the Second World War."
13 And this is the sentence -- the two sentences that I'm interested
14 in: "Those actions were orchestrated by a so-called Serb people's
15 resistance. The seat of this organisation was in Knin."
16 Now, that's a reference, is it not, to an organisation that's
17 sometimes called the Council for National Resistance. Is that right?
18 A. You could say the names are similar, and their functions, duties,
19 were the same, their purpose was the same. Resistance, council for
20 resistance, would mean the same thing, something that was meant to offer
22 Q. And this council came into existence after August 17th, 1990, and
23 was -- one of its functions was to organise and coordinate the barricades,
24 wasn't it?
25 A. It's possible they did that. I was not familiar with the work and
1 command there.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say in that sentence: "Those actions were
3 orchestrated by a so-called ..." What actions were you referring to?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when I was giving that
5 statement in 2000, I was thinking of all those actions aimed at putting up
6 the barricades, the roadblocks, and all the stories and rumours that
7 circulated. That's what I had in mind when I was giving that answer.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: So by "those actions" you meant the barricades and
9 the roadblocks?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. The shifts of personnel,
11 food, everything that was possibly going around those barricades. The
12 entire logistics.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 You may proceed.
15 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Sir, were you aware that Milan Martic was one of the commanders or
17 one of the leading figures in the Council for National Resistance?
18 A. No, I was not aware.
19 Q. Were you aware that he played a role, that he participated in the
20 activities of the Council for National Resistance?
21 A. I had no information to that effect or evidence of that.
22 Q. So you didn't know that first he was based in this capacity in
23 Golubic and then he moved shortly thereafter to the village of Oton, and
24 then sometime later moved to - and I'm going to mispronounce this, I'm
25 sure - Sinobadova Glavica? You weren't aware of that then, sir?
1 A. No, I didn't know that at all.
2 Q. I'm going to show you a document which is in evidence in our case.
3 It's Exhibit 872. This is a --
4 MR. WHITING: If we could turn to the last page of the document,
6 Q. This is a statement that was taken, you'll see here, on the 2nd of
7 December, 1990, by the JNA security organs. And you'll see the name
8 Zdravko Tolimir there on the left, perhaps a name that's familiar to you.
9 Is that name familiar to you?
10 A. Yes. Yes, the name of Zdravko Tolimir is familiar and Dragomir
11 Pecanac is also familiar. I don't know the third person, Ognjen Biserko.
12 Q. Now, if we could turn to the first page of the statement, please,
13 and I'm just going to focus in on some parts and then ask you if this
14 refreshes your recollection or if you know anything about what's being
15 discussed in the statement. And from the English I'm going to start
16 reading from the last sentences of the page, and you'll have to tell me,
17 sir, if you see it. I think it's -- yes, I think it will be on this page.
18 "I know that after the state of war was proclaimed," and that's a
19 reference to the 17th of August, 1990, "village guards were organised and
20 barricades set up in view of defence."
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I'm not with you. I'm on page 1.
22 MR. WHITING: Yeah, I see there's a different version in the --
23 it's -- on this version it's on the middle of the page of the
24 English. "I'm aware that after a state of war was declared" --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, okay.
1 MR. WHITING: I didn't realise I had a different version.
2 Q. "I also know that in Golubic village the staff for the defence of
3 Knin was created, which was later named -- renamed the Council of National
4 Resistance. I know this because radio and telephone communication links
5 were maintained between this staff and the reporting centre. I don't know
6 exactly in which way this staff was formed, but I do know which persons
7 used its communications to call me. They were Milan Martic, inspector of
8 the Knin SJS," and some other names are then listed.
9 MR. WHITING: And then if we could turn to the next page in
10 English, and I think we'll also have to turn to the next page in the
12 Q. A few lines down it says: "Martic said that he had been appointed
13 Chief of Staff and that Milan Babic was the one who appointed them all to
14 these functions in order to do the job seriously. I don't know for how
15 long exactly this staff operated and controlled the organisation of
16 resistance by inhabitants of Golubic village because it changed its
17 location repeatedly being based in Oton village at a time and then in the
18 memorial centre on Sinobadova Glavica in Knin. I know that after some
19 time the Council of National Resistance, against violence inflicted on the
20 Serbs, took over the functions of the staff. The Council was made up of
21 Milan Martic, Milan Dragisic," and some other names.
22 Q. Sir, do you know anything about what is stated here in this
23 statement or are these things that you were completely unaware of?
24 A. From this statement I recognise several persons whom I know as
25 citizens of Knin, but I know truly nothing about the events -- about the
1 event concerned. This is the first time I hear of it.
2 Q. So again, would you accept that during this time period,
3 August/September 1990, there were things happening in Knin municipality
4 that you were not aware of?
5 A. That's possible.
6 Q. Well, would you accept that that in fact could be very possible?
7 A. Possible, possible. I said it was possible that this happened.
8 Q. Now, certainly you would agree with me, would you not, that by the
9 time the so-called log revolution started in August of 1990, from then on
10 the Croatian police had no real authority in Knin, right?
11 A. I could not agree with you for several reasons.
12 Q. Well, let me -- before I hear those reasons, let me put to you
13 something -- some things that you said yourself in your direct
15 You told us that officers refused to implement several plans to
16 withdraw the weapons from Knin. You told us also that around the 22nd of
17 August officers in Drnis threw down their weapons and refused to implement
18 an order that had come from Sibenik. And you told us that those officers
19 thereafter weren't fired from their positions for refusing the order, that
20 they in fact were allowed to transfer to whatever police department they
21 wanted to go to. Don't those things indicate that the Croatian
22 authorities had, if not no authority in Knin, had extremely diminished
23 authority in Knin? Would you agree with that?
24 A. No, I would not.
25 Q. Why not?
1 A. Your Honours and honourable Mr. Prosecutor, the entire life of all
2 the people and the town of Knin was not reduced only to those barricades
3 and their operation. In addition to barricades, we had traffic, there
4 were thefts, embezzlements, car accidents, bar brawls, normal work was
5 going on, registrations were to be issued, IDs, all the other work of the
6 organs of internal affairs. We conducted our crime investigations,
7 apprehended people, cooperated with the justice system. We investigated
8 break-ins into rail cars transporting weapons. We reported to Zagreb, to
9 Sibenik. We're doing many other things.
10 Imagine -- imagine whether Zagreb, the MUP of Zagreb, and the
11 state of Croatia would be paying us if they really thought we were not
12 doing most of what our job normally consists of. So life was not just
13 barricades. There was normal life going on elsewhere in the territory --
14 Q. Sir, sir, I think --
15 A. It's possible that I didn't know about this.
16 Q. Well, I think that's something you've told us now a number of
17 times, and I think I understand your answer, though wouldn't you agree
18 with me, sir, that on all those other matters, those are matters that the
19 police in Knin were happy to cooperate with other police on, but that if
20 they did not want to cooperate, then they wouldn't? For example, on the
21 barricades. So ultimately it was up to the Serb police when they would
22 cooperate and when they wouldn't. Isn't that true?
23 A. Well, you could put it this way. Maybe they gave me wrong, false,
24 information and then I forwarded that false information to superior
25 commands, but I didn't have evidence of anything like that. I didn't have
1 evidence that they held something back from me.
2 Q. I understand, though the point of my question really was the --
3 and I'll put it -- I'll try to put it very simply. Croatian authorities
4 had authority in Knin only to the extent that the Serb majority there
5 agreed with that authority or agreed for them to have authority. Isn't
6 that right?
7 A. Even that is not completely right.
8 Q. Would you agree with me that it's right with respect to the
9 barricades and the disorder that surrounded the barricades? On those
10 topics, the Croatian authorities had no authority in Knin, right?
11 A. Well, as far as barricades are concerned, I would agree that they
12 had no power at all, no authority.
13 Q. I'll move on.
14 Let's talk about arming. You testified - and I'll quote you -
15 that -- and this is from 6808, that "throughout August and September 1990,
16 weapons were the main thing everyone was talking about and everybody was
17 bending over backwards in order to get weapons."
18 Do you remember that testimony, sir?
19 A. I remember that.
20 Q. You also talked, and this is at 6809, about various break-ins that
21 occurred. You described a case -- two case -- cases where the train was
22 broken into, and on one occasion ten rifles were taken and on another
23 occasion five or six were taken. And you told us about World War II
24 weapons that were surfacing and about weapons permits being forged. Do
25 you remember all those topics, sir? You have to answer verbally,
1 otherwise it doesn't get recorded.
2 A. Correct, I spoke about that. I'm sorry, I hadn't realised that
3 you were finished with your question, so I was waiting. And now I can
4 confirm that I understand. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. I appreciate that. Now, just -- just to be clear,
6 you're talking about Serb civilians in Knin obtaining weapons by these
7 various methods, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, you also testified, and this is at 6812, that: "We couldn't
10 take measures to confiscate all the weapons because that would pit us
11 against the population."
12 Do you remember that testimony, sir?
13 A. Sometimes there's an interruption. I lose the ...
14 Q. Should I repeat my question because it wasn't -- there was an
16 A. Yes, please. Yes, please.
17 Q. You testified, and I'll quote, it's from 6812: "We couldn't take
18 measures to confiscate all the weapons because that would pit us against
19 the population."
20 Do you remember that testimony in your direct examination?
21 A. Yes, yes, I do.
22 Q. And you testified also, and I'll quote you again, that: "We could
23 not embark on the disarmament or disarming of those people manning the
24 barricades because that would have led to a very difficult situation. I
25 or any of my police officers or any of my superiors did not wish to disarm
1 the people in that way."
2 That's from 6812. Do you remember that testimony, sir?
3 A. Yes, I do remember.
4 Q. Now, you don't believe, do you, that the Serbs in Knin armed
5 themselves only by break-ins of trains and shops, do you?
6 A. I believe that they obtained that in ways I described.
7 Q. In fact, wasn't there already at this time an organised effort to
8 arm the Serbs and that weapons were arriving from Serbia, or is that
9 something that you were not aware of?
10 A. I didn't know of any organised action whereby weapons would arrive
11 from Serbia at that time.
12 Q. Well, let me just show you again Exhibit 872 and see if you are
13 aware of anything that is discussed in that statement.
14 MR. WHITING: And if we could look at page -- well, I -- from my
15 version it's page 5 of the English. It's page 4 of the B/C/S. Actually,
16 I think it's probably on page 4 of the English, but I believe it's page 5
17 of the B/C/S.
18 Could we go to the prior page on the B/C/S, please, and
19 go -- yes. It's that second paragraph there at the bottom. I apologise.
20 Yes, now I think we're on the same page.
21 Q. Now, it states: "Concerning illegal arming of citizens, I can say
22 that it is widespread. I know that about 1300 guns and 400 pistols have
23 been infiltrated into the Knin and Obrovac municipalities. I know that
24 600 guns have arrived in Strmica. I think it was between 15 October 1990
25 and 19 October 1990. They came from the Crvena Zastava factory based in
1 Kragujevac," which is in Serbia. Correct?
2 A. Yes, yes, in Serbia.
3 Q. "Through the mediator RO Sport from Belgrade which runs a business
4 in Knin."
5 Did you know anything about that, sir?
6 A. I didn't know anything about that transport of weapons and the
7 quantity of weapons which arrived in the Knin area. I heard about it in
8 1991 and 1992 during the war, that Simo Dubajic was mentioned sold
9 carbines for certain sums of money. I don't know whether the amount was
10 1.000 marks or something like that. But this is all the information. I
11 never bought a carbine, and in this case, when we're talking about this
12 event, when I see the dates and the quantities, that's all I know.
13 Later during the war, I did hear stories that there were carbines
14 passing in the territory, such shipments, and that they were being bought
15 and sold. That's what I heard later.
16 Q. When you heard that later during the war, was it in reference to
17 events that had occurred in the fall; that is, September, October,
18 November of 1990?
19 A. It's possible. I wasn't really paying attention to the time.
20 There were many events. It's possible that it was related to this period,
21 I mean carbines were probably not being brought in in 1995.
22 Q. Well, can I -- let me try to put the question more directly to
23 you. As you sit here today, do you recall hearing in 1991 that weapons
24 had been brought in -- carbines had been brought in and sold during 1990?
25 Do you recall hearing those stories?
1 A. I heard that the person mentioned in the statement, Mr. Simo
2 Dubajic, sold carbines. I don't know how they reached Knin and what the
3 quantity was or I don't know when exactly they arrived. But I heard that
4 he was selling carbines and that the price was approximately 1.000 German
5 marks. That was the counter value.
6 Q. Let me just read a -- just a bit more from this statement. And
7 it's at the bottom of page 4 in the English and it's going to be on the
8 next page in the B/C/S. Towards -- more towards the top. Just making
9 sure it's on -- yes, okay. It's about halfway down the screen in the
10 B/C/S there. And it starts the last sentence on -- in the English
11 version: "The same evening at about 1800" -- and the reference is to
12 16th November 1991, "Nanic told us at the centre that he had just driven
13 in about 400 guns and 200 or 300 pistols of the type TT Duga Devetka, and
14 he was supposed to transport them to the village of Krupa to give them to
15 his godfather Simo Dubajic."
16 And then it tells that he drove them from the manufacturer in
18 I'm sorry. Does that help you remember that these -- that these
19 quantities, these kinds of weapons were being brought by various channels
20 from Serbia at the time or do you still have no knowledge of that?
21 A. Your Honours, sir, I cannot change all that I know in one minute.
22 I have already said most of the things that I know, and I want to say as
23 much here so that the truth can be determined.
24 I was never present and I didn't have documents pertaining to
25 this. This person, Simo Dubajic, is mentioned here in relation to Krupa,
1 but I know that he actually comes from a place called Kistanje, not Krupa.
2 When this statement was taken -- I mean, there is a lot of information
3 here. I don't know whether it's all precise and correct. I'm not
4 doubting the statement as a whole, but I'm sure that there are some
5 details that are not so correct. Perhaps they are, but it's my
6 information that I don't know that so many weapons came to the territory
7 of Knin.
8 As I said, all I know is that during the war in different meetings
9 and through various events, I found out that these weapons were there.
10 All I know is that the cost was 1.000 German marks. I don't know whether
11 it was for one or two carbines. I am not somebody who is particularly
12 interested or ever had any hunting weapons. All I had was my officially
13 issued pistol. That's all that I had. I wasn't interested in anything
14 beyond that.
15 Q. Sir, just to be clear about the purpose of these questions, I'm
16 interested only in what you know and what you do not know. It's only what
17 you know. But also just to -- just -- you would agree with me that in the
18 statement it does not say that Simo Dubajic comes from the village of
19 Krupa, it's a reference that he's transporting weapons to Krupa, right?
20 Isn't that what it says? ?
21 A. The village of Krupa, yes.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I intervene, please? Can we all try to make
23 sure that, at least when the witness is speaking, all other microphones
24 are off. Apparently his voice can be heard outside the court.
25 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. I've tried to remember to
1 turn mine off, but I may have missed a few times. I'll take greater care.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm also asking everybody else who is sitting
3 around. Please make sure that the microphones are off.
4 You may proceed, Mr. Whiting, now that my microphone is on.
5 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. Actually, I know it's about
6 two minutes early, but I'm just going to go into another document which
7 will require more time than two minutes. So perhaps we could break for
8 the day.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are ever so grateful to you, Mr. Whiting. Thank
10 you so much.
11 We will now break for the day and reconvene tomorrow at quarter
12 past -- at 9.00 in the morning.
13 Court adjourned.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.40 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of
16 August, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.