Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7127

1 Friday, 25 August 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, everybody. Once again, I warn you,

7 Witness, that you are still bound by the declaration you made at the

8 beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing

9 else but the truth. Is that okay?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS MM-096 [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

15 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, I was just rising to continue my

16 examination.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may.

18 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Whiting: [Continued]

21 Q. Good afternoon, sir. As I said yesterday, I'm almost finished.

22 A. Good afternoon, sir.

23 Q. Before I continue with the questions I was asking yesterday, I

24 wanted to go back just for a moment and ask you a question about the

25 police station in Drnis in August of 1990. You testified that, and I'm

Page 7128

1 quoting: "As far as I know, even though I'm not all that familiar with

2 that because I didn't actually work there, but as far as I know the ratio

3 between Serb and Croat policemen was more or less equal."

4 Do you remember that testimony?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. Would you accept the possibility that, in fact, there were -- that

7 the police station was predominantly Serb and that there was a minority

8 number of Croat policemen there?

9 A. Well, sir, esteemed Prosecutor, I would accept that if there was a

10 document indicating what you have just explained. Things being what they

11 are, I have to abide by my previous position.

12 Q. Well, no, I wasn't actually asking that. What -- I was trying to

13 get a feel for how sure you are about this fact, because in your testimony

14 you said: "I'm not all that familiar with that because I didn't actually

15 work there." So I'm trying to put to you whether you would accept the

16 possibility that there were more -- many more Serbs than Croats, in fact,

17 in that police department.

18 A. I don't accept that possibility. I used to know the previous

19 chief there. We were on good terms. We would spend sometime talking and

20 we talked about this too. Later on, employees, officers, who arrived at

21 that station from Knin were speaking about a 50/50 ratio in terms of the

22 ethnic distribution, and that is where I get my information from.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you. You described in your testimony the insignia,

24 the patch, that the SAO Krajina police began to wear around the summer of

25 1991, and you described it as "a semi-circular lettering saying

Page 7129

1 'Milicija,' police, and then 'Milicija of Krajina,' Krajina Police, and

2 then in the middle there was the tri-coloured flag."

3 Do you remember that testimony?

4 A. Sir, I'm not sure about the interpretation I have just received.

5 I said there was a semi-circular lettering saying "Milicija" and then just

6 underneath it said "Krajina." Above the "Milicija" word and underneath

7 the "Krajina" word was a tri-coloured flag, meaning the word "Milicija"

8 appears just once and the word "Krajina" just underneath likewise appears

9 once only.

10 Q. Okay. I think I understand. Just to be clear, the tri-coloured

11 flag is above "Krajina" and below "Milicija"; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. WHITING: Could see we Exhibit 266, please.

14 Q. Is this the patch that you were describing, sir?

15 A. Yes, indeed it is.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 Now I want to go back to Benkovac in 1992. When you were in

18 Benkovac, were you familiar with two officers by the name of Milan

19 Veselinovic and Jovo Zecevic? Are you familiar with those two officers?

20 A. Sir, these men were not officers. As far as I know, they were

21 erstwhile members of the police, but later they became members of a

22 military unit.

23 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Whether I used the word

24 "officers," I'm thinking of members of the police, but I understand that

25 the translation may suggest something different.

Page 7130

1 So in August of 1992, what was the status of these two men? Were

2 they members of the police at that time?

3 A. At the time, they were members of special police units, the

4 Krajina border police.

5 Q. Were they within the Benkovac public security station?

6 A. Not at the time. They fell under the jurisdiction of the Knin

7 SUP. These were police forces that covered the borders. The public

8 security station is a lower level unit in terms of organisation, and

9 public security stations did not control the borders. The borders were

10 under the Knin SUP. There was a special department coordinating the work

11 of all these minor units, patrolling the borders. We at Benkovac

12 sometimes provided logistics for them, but we did not coordinate their

13 work and they were not under our command.

14 Q. You spoke yesterday about a special unit that was in Benkovac that

15 had, among other things, a military function. That special unit, did that

16 fall under the command of the Benkovac public security station or did that

17 fall under the command of the Knin SUP?

18 A. Sir, this unit was about 25 or 26 men strong. It was called the

19 Benkovac special police unit. Establishment-wise it belonged to the

20 Benkovac public security station, but during war operations, it would join

21 other units from throughout Dalmatia in order to form a company and then

22 it would place itself under the command of a military unit. Usually at

23 the front line military commanders were in charge and the police

24 commanders were normally in charge further back.

25 Q. Now, the two men who I mentioned, Milan Veselinovic and Jovo

Page 7131

1 Zecevic, were they members of the Benkovac special police unit or were

2 they members some other special police unit?

3 A. The two police officers you've mentioned were not members of the

4 Benkovac special unit or the Benkovac station. They belonged to a

5 department of the Knin SUP and were deployed at the border crossing called

6 Stabanj, which is on the way from Benkovac towards Biograd at the far end.

7 There was a border crossing and their task was to patrol or control that

8 border crossing.

9 Q. Are you aware that on the 3rd of August, 1992, these two policemen

10 arrested a Croat by the name of Davor Lukic?

11 A. I wasn't familiar with that occurrence at the time, but now that

12 you've mentioned it, this had something to do with me. Back in 2000 I

13 received an Interpol arrest warrant indicating that I, too, had been

14 involved in this arrest so I became interested, naturally.

15 I can explain, time allowing. It was not until after the war,

16 back in 2001, that I became, to some extent, familiar with this case

17 you've mentioned.

18 Q. Well, let me try and ask you some questions and we'll see if I can

19 get your evidence on this issue.

20 The arrest warrant that implicated you, did you become aware that

21 at some point that was withdrawn or dismissed against you? Did you learn

22 that?

23 A. I learned later that the arrest warrant against me and two other

24 men had been withdrawn. As for these other two people, Zecevic and Milan

25 Veselinovic, the arrest warrant against them was still in force but I only

Page 7132

1 learned about this later.

2 Q. So you did not know -- hear anything about this in 1992, about

3 this -- what happened to Davor Lukic?

4 A. Back in 1992, I was not familiar with any of the details. It

5 wasn't before the year 2000 that I found out about a number of details.

6 As for Davor Lukic, he is one of the 13 cases that I discussed in

7 the first days. People who made an illegal crossing into the Krajina

8 area, these people were arrested and after a while returned untouched to

9 Croat-controlled territory. This is one of the 13 illegal border

10 crossings that I mentioned. I'm sure that this man you just mentioned,

11 Davor Lukic, was one of these people.

12 Q. Well, since you say that he was returned untouched, let me just

13 put to you what is derived from his own statement on this topic.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The witness didn't say that

17 nothing happened to them. He said one of the 13 cases who were returned

18 alive.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't see "alive." I see here: "This is one of

20 the 13 illegal borders crossings that I mentioned. I'm sure that this man

21 you just mentioned, Davor Lukic, was one of these people."

22 I don't know where you get "alive" from, Mr. Milovancevic.

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand the

24 witness's language and I know what he said. He said, "One of the 13 cases

25 who were returned alive." That's what he said. And that was his

Page 7133

1 testimony during examination-in-chief, and the interpretation here does

2 not contain the word "alive."

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then that's what you must say. Tell us that the

4 interpretation is incorrect and stop threatening me, okay? Because it

5 does say here: "These people were arrested and after a while returned

6 untouched to Croat-controlled territory."

7 Now, are you saying that "untouched" should mean "alive," were

8 returned alive, to Croat territory? We can put it that way, which would

9 mean, in fact, that -- which would not exclude --

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] We can't leave it like that.

11 My apologies, Your Honour. First of all, I apologise because I

12 never meant to threaten anyone. It was probably my body language and that

13 was because I was reacting to the transcript. It certainly wasn't

14 directed at you, Your Honour. Further, I need to apologise, it was even

15 before I had seen the transcript. I was reacting to my learned friend's

16 the Prosecutor's question because I had just heard the sentence uttered by

17 the witness who said this was one of the 13 cases who were returned alive.

18 In examination-in-chief, he spoke about 13 illegal border crossings. When

19 speaking about the document produced by Mr. McElligott, he said: "There

20 were 13 illegal border crossings into our territory by Croats, and they

21 were all returned alive. There was a Serb who crossed over into Croatian

22 territory and when he returned he was mincemeat, nothing more than that,

23 and his lung had been pierced."

24 That is why the witness was emphasising that these 13 persons were

25 returned alive, and I'm not myself familiar with any other details.

Page 7134

1 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I can clear it up with the witness.

2 I'm happy to clear it up with the witness.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

4 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Witness, as you've probably gathered we have a little question

6 about the interpretation. Did you say that the -- that he returned --

7 that he was returned alive or untouched?

8 A. I said alive.

9 Q. Very well. Now, did you know -- did you learn at the time -- you

10 said that you learned only details later. I'm just going to ask you and

11 see what you might have known at the time and what you learned later. Did

12 you learn at the time that the two officers that I mentioned, I'm sorry,

13 two policemen that I mentioned, took Mr. Lukic to a -- after they arrested

14 him at the border and seized him, they took him to a restaurant and tied

15 him and kicked him all over his body and accused him of being a member

16 of --

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see no

18 foundation for this question. I see no foundation. The witness did say

19 that it wasn't before 2000, and this was an arrest warrant issued against

20 him, that he learned about this case. It wasn't before the year 2000 that

21 he found out about some details that this was a person who had made an

22 illegal border crossing, was eventually arrested and returned alive. To

23 examine the witness now on what had become of this person who was harmed,

24 as the Prosecutor suggests, while the witness is telling us that he's not

25 really familiar with that, well, what that indicates to me is that there

Page 7135

1 is no foundation for this question.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, I don't know what you mean by

3 foundation, and I think you are interrupting the cross-examination

4 unfairly. The question -- the Prosecution says: Very well. Now, did you

5 know -- did you learn at the time -- you said that you learned only

6 details later. I'm just going to ask you and see what you might have

7 known at the time and what you learned later."

8 He's going to ask him those questions, and it is for the witness

9 to say, now, that I didn't know at the time, this I did know at the time.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Now that's what the Prosecutor had

12 said.

13 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Let's go back to the question. Did you learn at the time in 1992

15 that these two policemen took this man, Davor Lukic, to a restaurant after

16 they arrested him, they tied him, kicked him all over his body, and

17 accused him of being a member of a terrorist group?

18 A. When this happened, I wasn't aware of that case or the detail.

19 Q. Were you aware that this man was -- Davor Lukic was taken to the

20 Benkovac public security station where he was held, interrogated, and

21 mistreated?

22 A. I was not aware of that case.

23 Q. Were you not even aware that he -- that Davor Lukic was held in

24 the public security station from the time of his arrest on the 3rd of

25 August, 1992, until his release on the 28th of October, 1992?

Page 7136

1 A. I think it didn't happen the way you just described it to me,

2 because if things had happened this way, then I should have known, but I

3 don't think he stayed in the public security station for any amount of

4 time at all.

5 Q. Did you know a police officer -- a policeman by the name of Djoko

6 Vukasinovic?

7 A. I knew a man named Djuro Vukasinovic, also known as Djoko. He

8 worked at the public security station and later started working with the

9 army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

10 Q. In August of 1992, was he working in the public security station

11 in Benkovac?

12 A. I don't think he was, no. In fact, he wasn't. He had already

13 transferred to the security services of the army of the Republic of

14 Serbian Krajina. Lukic first ended up in the barracks and then after that

15 with the misdemeanours magistrate in Knin but certainly not in the

16 Benkovac public security station.

17 If you want to hear a full account, I can give it to you and then

18 you can check that against your own information, and then after that it

19 will be down to the Chamber to judge the veracity of all this different

20 information.

21 Q. Well, let me just ask you one more question, then I'll ask you for

22 that full account. Did you know, were Sasa and Dragan Matic policemen in

23 the Benkovac public security station in August of 1992?

24 A. I do remember that young man.

25 Q. That's not a clear answer to the question. Were they -- you say

Page 7137

1 you remember that young man. First of all, I asked you about two men,

2 Sasa and Dragan Matic, two different men. Were they both policemen in the

3 Benkovac public security station in August of 1992?

4 A. Sir, my answer was somewhat imprecise because the interpretation

5 had not yet finished. But now that you have repeated your question, I can

6 tell you that both Sasa and Dragan Matic, two brothers, were members of

7 the Benkovac public security station.

8 Q. Now, can you tell us, did you know anything else about this case

9 of the arrest of Davor Lukic at the time, in 1992? What -- tell us

10 everything that you knew, that you haven't told us so far, about the

11 arrest of Davor Lukic in 1992, that you knew at that time.

12 A. I can hardly tell you anything about that. I was not really

13 familiar with that back in 1992.

14 Q. But were you -- were you aware that this man had been arrested?

15 Were you even aware of that fact, simply that fact?

16 A. I might have been aware at the time, I'm not sure how, aware of an

17 exchange of information with the army. But it's been 13 or 14 years

18 since, and it's difficult for me to remember now whether I'd heard of

19 something like that. I am not a native of the area myself. Thousands of

20 persons and bits of information have filtered through my mind since, and

21 it's difficult to remember anyone in particular. It's very difficult for

22 me to remember all the 13 names. I can't remember the names of all the

23 people who were killed, all those who were arrested. At least I would

24 need to use some notes, something to jog my memory. This is an enormous

25 amount of names and figures that need to be sorted.

Page 7138

1 Q. Now, following on from that answer, would it be fair to say that

2 in -- when you were in the -- at the public security station in Benkovac

3 in 1992, 1993, that your knowledge was really about that area, about the

4 area around Benkovac, and that you wouldn't know the details of what was

5 happening in areas outside of Benkovac? Is that a fair statement?

6 A. Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, I don't think this is a fair conclusion, not

7 from where I stand. I was familiar with the situation throughout my area

8 of responsibility. I wasn't aware of things that weren't within my remit

9 but I was certainly aware of everything that was going on, things that

10 were within my remit.

11 Q. That's actually what I meant to -- what I was trying to ask you.

12 You were aware of what was happening within your area of responsibility;

13 in other words, the area of responsibility of the Benkovac public security

14 station, but not of things outside of that area of responsibility. Is

15 that now a fair statement?

16 A. I didn't know details about what happened in the military aspect

17 or the civilian authorities' work, although I may have had bits and pieces

18 about that too. But I'm honestly trying hard to share with this Court

19 everything that I do know, and you can easily check through your papers

20 whether what I am saying is consistent with what you know. But I'm trying

21 to tell you all I know.

22 Q. I'm just trying to get a sense of where your knowledge is and

23 where it might not be. So I take it that public security stations in

24 other areas of the Krajina outside of the Benkovac public security

25 station, other public security stations, you wouldn't know the details of

Page 7139

1 what was happening at those public security stations. Is that correct?

2 A. I can say that I was partially informed, either from conversations

3 with colleagues or joint briefings with my superiors or joint briefings

4 within our office, such as the one we had with chiefs of civilian police

5 in Sector South, on which occasions we shared information about some

6 particular cases. If I was interested in a particular case, I would try

7 to elicit more information, even if it happened in another area. There

8 were places in Sector South where I had never set foot upon, but I still

9 knew some things that I heard at meetings about those areas.

10 Q. So your knowledge about those areas were -- would be from

11 conversations with colleagues or these joint briefings and would generally

12 pertain to particular cases. Is that fair to say?

13 A. Yes, that's fair to say.

14 Q. Now, would you agree -- or let me put it this way: You would

15 agree, wouldn't you, that by 1994, most of the Croat population in the RSK

16 had left the RSK, by 1994? Is that correct?

17 A. Well, I don't know what exactly you mean by "most of the Croat

18 population," but quite a lot of inhabitants had left the territory of the

19 RSK by that time.

20 Q. By the way, I want to go back for a moment. You testified with

21 regard to 1993 that there were -- you testified about convoys of Croat

22 civilians out of the RSK that occurred after the attack at Maslenica in

23 January of 1993. Are you aware that these convoys were already escorting

24 Croat civilians out of the RSK from Vrpolje in 1992? Or do you not know

25 anything about that?

Page 7140

1 A. I really don't know about those convoys out of Vrpolje in 1992. I

2 told you in my prior testimony that as far as the leaving of Croats from

3 Krajina after the aggression of the Croat army --

4 Q. I think you've fully answered the question. You don't need to --

5 we have your testimony about 1993 and there is no need to repeat that, and

6 now you've answered about Vrpolje in 1992.

7 Sir, can you tell us the last time that you saw Milan Martic?

8 A. I can't remember exactly when I saw him for the last time before

9 coming to this Tribunal, but it could have been sometime in 1997 or maybe

10 1998 in Banja Luka.

11 Q. Did you in fact --

12 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session?

14 [Private session]

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 MR. WHITING: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

Page 7143

1 Mr. Milovancevic?

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Re-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, do you recall that the Prosecutor asked

5 you several questions yesterday regarding events in Bruska and put to you

6 a report made by security organs, military security organs?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Do you recall that the Prosecutor drew your attention in

9 particular to one part of that report, which is a nota bene, in which the

10 author of the report made by the military security service notes that the

11 conclusion that the crime was committed by a sabotage terrorist group is

12 not corroborated by material evidence?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Could we please see on our screens Exhibit 403. That is a

15 document of the 180th Motorised Brigade dated 11th March 1992. My learned

16 friend showed you that document but he did not familiarise you with its

17 contents so I'm going to do that now.

18 You do see the document. That's a report by the 180th Motorised

19 Brigade. Could we please turn to the first working page, with the last

20 digits of the number 6784. Otherwise, in B/C/S it's a one-page document.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the English

22 translation crosses over onto page 2.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Milovancevic. It looks like my version

24 goes to four pages, and 6784 is the fourth page.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I omitted to draw

Page 7144

1 your attention to one thing: In the English translation, the first page

2 is marked 3 and continues on page 4. So the first page in English is 3

3 and the end is on page 4.

4 Q. Witness, could you please read the third and the fourth paragraph

5 of this report, the last two paragraphs before the Nota Bene.

6 A. I can't see it any more, the screen has changed. This is some

7 sort of --

8 Q. What we see on our screens now is no longer the document we had

9 asked for. Here it is.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your learned friend is on his feet.

11 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I apologise. If I may, I don't think,

12 first of all, that these questions arise out of cross because I used this

13 document for a very narrow purpose of seeing if he was aware of the

14 information in the conclusion. So to go now to read the rest of the

15 document, I don't really -- it doesn't seem to me to arise out of cross.

16 And secondly, this document is in evidence. So we have it. I'm

17 not sure what purpose is served by having the witness read the document

18 now.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic?

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Prosecutor

21 dealt with this case in great detail, and he insisted precisely on the

22 detail that the Defence is now trying to deal with in redirect. My

23 learned friend examined the witness as to whether he had information that

24 the police force was named as a possible perpetrator of this crime in

25 Bruska. He asked him for an answer but he did not show him the contents

Page 7145

1 of the document which proves precisely the opposite. I want to show now

2 that the Prosecutor did not give the witness all information and withheld

3 the information that he had which speaks to the opposite. Of course the

4 Prosecutor is free to choose his material, but he is not allowed, I

5 believe, to misinform the witness.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, can you just, for the clarity of

7 the Bench, point us to the information that specifically you want to refer

8 the witness to which the Prosecutor didn't show him and which points to

9 the contrary.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, paragraphs 3 and

11 4 of this page. In the English translation, it's page 3. So paragraphs 3

12 and 4. In other words, the two paragraphs above the Nota Bene. In these

13 two paragraphs, the security officer, who says in the Nota Bene that there

14 is no material evidence to indicate that it was a sabotage terrorist

15 group, does not say that it seems the police perpetrated the crime. On

16 the contrary, he indicates completely different and very specific possible

17 perpetrators, and I think that is important to show to the Trial Chamber

18 and the witness, and the accused, because the accused has the right to

19 counter the theory of the Prosecution.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Whiting?

21 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if the Trial Chamber wants to allow

22 Mr. Milovancevic to proceed on these questions, that's fine, but I do want

23 to make it clear that I certainly in no way misled the witness or withheld

24 information about the witness. I used this document for the specific

25 purpose about the theory of the Croatian Sabotage Unit committing the

Page 7146

1 crime. I didn't address anything about this alternative theory, which is

2 one that the witness in fact touched on. I didn't challenge that. I

3 didn't say there was no evidence to support that. And so there was

4 nothing misleading about the -- my cross-examination. I just wanted that

5 to be clear.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting.

7 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic, just point quickly to the evidence that you

8 want to point and through the witness. We cannot afford to waste more

9 time on this witness now. We've spent a lot of time on this witness. I'd

10 like to get him out of the Court and I'm sure he wants to go home.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't

12 understand. Do you think it's a waste of time to try to establish facts

13 about one of the most serious charges against Mr. Martic? We have here

14 material that was completely misrepresented by the Prosecutor. He made it

15 out to be exactly the opposite and it will be very brief. The credibility

16 of the witness was attempted at by the Prosecutor by showing him this

17 report concerning Bruska, while the Prosecutor withheld at the same time

18 completely information to the opposite. Which of the two is correct is up

19 to you to decide when you make your conclusions.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why do you think I think it's a waste of time?

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's the

22 interpretation of your words that I received.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I heard you said, "We are out

25 of time." But I don't know what else we have time for unless we have it

Page 7147

1 for a murder of ten people, a heinous crime.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want you to read what I said. It's at

3 page 20, line 1. And tell me where it says we are out of time. That's

4 line 1 to line 4.

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] It is written in the first,

6 second, and third line on page 20, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I say "we are out of time"?

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No. It says that we cannot

9 waste any more time with this witness or to waste more time on this

10 witness. That's the interpretation I got and it's indeed written in

11 line 2.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You must quote me correctly when you next quote me.

13 And do you -- but did you read that in context? Did you hear what -- did

14 you read what I said first? And are you prepared to do what I asked you

15 to do in that sentence? I would like to get an answer from him before you

16 stand up. Are you prepared to do what I asked you to do in that sentence?

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] You asked me to continue, Your

18 Honour. That is what I understood. And I only wanted, as Defence

19 counsel, to point out to you --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I've asked you a question, Mr. Milovancevic. Why

21 don't you do that?

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That's

23 what I'll do.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's no answer to my question. Why don't you do

25 that?

Page 7148

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Now I don't understand you,

2 Your Honour. I've lost --

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]. That was the first

4 sentence I said in that statement. Why didn't you do that? That's my

5 question. What is it you don't understand in that question? It's simple

6 and straightforward.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you are asking me

8 if I'm going to proceed the way you suggested.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you if you're going to proceed. I'm

10 asking you why you didn't proceed. Now, again, please listen to my

11 question.

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Because it was very important

13 to me, Your Honour, that this document be shown to the witness, and to the

14 Prosecutor as well, and for the Trial Chamber to hear it in the original,

15 the way it is, because it is completely opposite from what it was held out

16 to be. That's how I wanted to present the material to you, and it is up

17 to you to decide whether you're going to accept my suggestion or not. Now

18 when you told me to ask my question, I'm going to ask the question. This

19 is now situation number 2. I was talking about situation number 1.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... irrelevant to

21 the questions that I'm asking you, Mr. Milovancevic. I'm just asking you

22 why you didn't continue when I asked you to continue. It's as simple as

23 all that, and if you don't want to answer me, tell me you don't want to

24 answer me.

25 Before you proceed, Mr. Whiting was on his feet.

Page 7149

1 Mr. Whiting.

2 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, at this point I would ask the Trial

3 Chamber to please ask the Defence counsel to refrain from making what I

4 find are baseless suggestions, accusations. The suggestion that I

5 misrepresented this document, I think, is completely groundless and

6 baseless. And I would point out that this document was put into evidence

7 in this trial by the Prosecution. It's something we want the Trial

8 Chamber to be aware of, and I certainly, when asking questions on

9 cross-examination, in no way misrepresented its contents. And

10 Mr. Milovancevic insists on repeating that accusation over and over again.

11 I don't know which crowd he's playing for, but I think it's inappropriate.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is indeed inappropriate. And I do not want to

13 go into this any further. Ask your questions, Mr. Milovancevic.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness, are you aware that military security organs, when

16 investigating the case in Bruska, also got hold of information available

17 in this document, among others, that a possible motive for the killing of

18 Dusko Marinovic and other members of the Marinovic family was revenge for

19 a brawl wherein the possible perpetrator lost his finger?

20 MR. WHITING: Objection. That's a leading question.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] After which he was nicknamed

22 Stump.

23 MR. WHITING: [Previous translation continues] ... on re-direct

24 that is a leading question, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, that's a leading question, it

Page 7150

1 does not arise from cross-examination; two reasons for the irrelevance of

2 that question.

3 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Milovancevic, I might have misunderstood,

4 but I believe the Trial Chamber had given you permission to proceed to

5 indicate certain passages in the exhibit or the document that is before us

6 to support the questions that -- or the areas that you wished to have

7 dealt with arising properly in the course of cross-examination. So maybe

8 that will help to redirect you. You may have become a little bit

9 distracted by what has happened before, but you're supposed to be

10 indicating the portions, the relevant portions, in the document. That is

11 what you set out to do, and that is what you should be proceeding to now.

12 Will that help you in any way, hopefully?

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank

14 you.

15 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: You're more than welcome.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. In order to be able to ask you the following question, I will have

18 to show you a portion of the text. I'm talking about paragraphs 2 and 3,

19 military security. It says: "Through work with an associate named Ranko,

20 a civilian, unvetted, reliable, I learned that about 3 or 4 years ago a

21 serious brawl had erupted between the late Dusko Marinovic and Mile

22 Pupovac, nicknamed Stump, in the brackets, because he lost a finger in the

23 brawl. The brawl occurred in the village of Bruska, and afterwards,

24 Pupovac was taken to the Bijovat [phoen] hospital to get his injuries seen

25 to. Pupovac resides in the village of Medvidja."

Page 7151

1 Next paragraph, paragraph 4 reads: "The associate obtained

2 information to indicate that Mile Pupovac might be one of the perpetrators

3 of this crime and the possible organiser of an act of revenge against

4 Dusko Marinovic. This is in line with the fact that the murders were

5 committed at Dusko Marinovic's house and with the fact that he was one of

6 the first victims. The source then indicates that the others found in

7 Dusko Marinovic's house were killed because they identified the

8 perpetrators and that the only person who remained alive in the house was

9 his daughter-in-law from the village of Dobropoljci."

10 The question in relation to these two paragraphs, Witness, does

11 this text indicate that someone from the police were suspect in this

12 crime?

13 A. The text you have just read out does not indicate that the

14 suspects were members of the police.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting was on his feet, Mr. Milovancevic.

17 MR. WHITING: It's fine. I'll let it go.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting. You may proceed,

19 Mr. Milovancevic.

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your

21 Honours.

22 Q. Witness, do you remember that in cross examination, the Prosecutor

23 asked you about Arkan's visit to Knin and the fact that he was after that

24 arrested in Zagreb?

25 A. I do remember that question being asked.

Page 7152

1 Q. Do you know what became of Arkan after the arrest? Was he tried

2 and convicted?

3 A. I read in the press at that time that Arkan was not convicted but

4 was instead soon released from prison in Croatia.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me, are you done with this document,

6 Mr. Milovancevic?

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour. Thank you

8 very much.

9 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Milovancevic, I must admit I'm a little bit

10 taken by surprise on the manner in which you dealt with the document just

11 now because I thought what you wanted to get from the witness, if he were

12 aware of these passages which you read to him, or extracts, would he have

13 answered the questions which Mr. Whiting raised to him in

14 cross-examination differently, or am I mistaken?

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all I wanted to do

16 was to use these questions to protect this witness's credibility.

17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much. I'm sorry to have

18 disturbed you.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Witness, do you remember the Prosecutor asking you a number of

21 questions to do with the situation after Operation Maslenica, as well as

22 questions about the attitude of the refugees to the native Croatian

23 population of the area? You remember that, don't you?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Can we please have on our screen a document from the 65 ter list

Page 7153

1 of the OTP, the number is 345. This is an UNCIVPOL report, Sector South,

2 dated the 8th of February, 1993.

3 Before the document emerges on our monitors, I shall tell you that

4 this is a document in English. There it is.

5 Do you see that in front of you? In the upper right corner it

6 reads "UNCIVPOL Sector South, the 8th of February, 1993, at 1900 hours."

7 Do you see that, Witness?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. May I draw your attention to item 1 of this report

10 entitled "general situation." It reads: "Tensions still high in the

11 area." This is on the 8th of February 1993.

12 It is followed by item 3, further down, it reads: "Operations.

13 UNCIVPOL reports that the Knin civilian police station had submitted a

14 report to the effect that one of their patrols in the village of Vrpolje

15 had come across members of the local police who were guarding the local

16 Croats from that village who had been forced to leave their homes by

17 refugees and who are still residing in schools."

18 At the end of that paragraph we see this: "There were no

19 complaints from the Croats during the visit."

20 In other words, no complaints made to the UNCIVPOL. Does this

21 tally with your knowledge of the situation following Maslenica operation?

22 A. Yes. This information tallies with the fact as I know it that the

23 police were guarding those expelled Croats to keep them safe from harm.

24 Q. Can we please go to page 4; that's 6050 in the English. The

25 second passage, line 2 reads: "A common problem at present is the fact

Page 7154

1 that local Croats are still being expelled from their houses and flats,

2 both by the newly arriving refugees, as well as the local opportunists.

3 Local authorities appear to be powerless to stop this."

4 I will now skip one line in order to save time.

5 And then it follows: "The local authorities said that no persons

6 from now on would be expelled from their homes in this way. They also

7 said that they will have these people returned to their houses and flats.

8 However, these people presently staying in a small school, which is

9 severely overcrowded and has inadequate sanitary facilities, have refused

10 to go back and are adamant that they should be sent to the other side

11 while the Croatian authorities have refused to take them in."

12 Is this a situation that you commented on during your

13 examination-in-chief and cross-examination, Witness?

14 A. No. I don't think I commented on this particular situation. I

15 did say a thing or two about a similar situation that occurred in

16 Benkovac.

17 Q. You heard the Prosecutor ask you about whether it was true that

18 you did not have sufficient manpower because police officers had been

19 deployed along the front line. You did not have enough people to ensure

20 the Croats were safe but you did have enough people to ensure that they

21 left. You remember that question being asked?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Was that a policy that you and the police force at the time

24 actively pursued?

25 A. No. This was certainly no official policy that the police pursued

Page 7155

1 or any of the authorities in the area. In Benkovac municipality, there

2 were Croats in great number of villages, in all the areas outside the town

3 of Benkovac itself. In order to make sure that they were safe, an effort

4 like that would have required an enormous number of people, an enormous

5 number of people to provide security for all those villages. We simply

6 didn't have the manpower. It was as simple as that.

7 Q. Thank you very much. You've explained already why it was that you

8 didn't have the manpower required for a task like that, haven't you?

9 A. Yes. There was a war on, and a lot of police officers were sent

10 to the front line to hold the front line in the face of the advancing

11 Croatian forces in the area of Novi Grad and Prigrada [phoen].

12 Q. Thank you very much. We have several minutes to go before the

13 break and let us now move on to a different subject.

14 Do you remember the Prosecutor showing you Ognjen Biserko's

15 statement? He was an employee of the Secretariat for All People's

16 Defence, the Knin SO, the intelligence centre. This statement has to do

17 with illegal weapons being obtained as well as barricades.

18 A. Yes. I do remember that.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Before I move on, I move that

20 the document on our screens right now, and I'm talking about the UNCIVPOL

21 report dated the 8th of March, 1993, be admitted into evidence.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it not already in evidence?

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not as far as I

24 know, not as far as my records indicate. This is an OTP exhibit. It's on

25 their 65 ter list, the number is 345.

Page 7156

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This is already Exhibit number 897, according to

2 what the system is telling me. Okay. This will be of course, thank you.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.

4 Then the document is admitted into evidence. May it please be

5 given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit number 897.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Can we

10 now please look at Exhibit 872? This is Mr. Biserko's statement to the

11 then Lieutenant Colonel, Zdravko Tolimir, and recording clerk Zdravko

12 Bicanac [phoen] on the 2nd of December, 1992.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please be asked to move closer to

14 the microphone? The interpreters can't hear him. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you hear that, Mr. Milovancevic? You are asked

16 to move closer to the microphone because the interpreters can't hear you.

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I didn't catch that, Your

18 Honour. Thanks for warning me. I'm not listening to that channel.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation].

21 Q. Witness, do you see this statement? This is Ognjen Biserko's

22 statement.

23 A. Indeed I do.

24 Q. I will show you the first paragraph in which this witness claims

25 through performing a functional duty at the intelligence centre in Knin, I

Page 7157

1 obtained certain information about illegal semi-military forms of

2 organising and illegal arming of citizens in the Knin territory meant to

3 serve as a defence from an attack by the Special Forces of the Republic of

4 Croatia.

5 I will show you another portion from the next passage. Biserko

6 claims as follows: "I know that a state of war was declared in Knin on

7 the 17th of August, 1990, the purpose being to defend from the special

8 units of the Republic of Croatia which, during the previous night, had

9 tried to seize some of the weapons from the Benkovac and Obrovac public

10 security stations."

11 I'm skipping a sentence, and then the next one, and then I'll wrap

12 it up.

13 "While on duty, I received several different bits of information

14 and misinformation about MUP movement on Obrovac, Benkovac and Knin. I

15 know that after the state of war was declared -- I know that local guards

16 were set up and self-organised in order to defend."

17 About this document, Witness, you spoke about an attempt to

18 secretly seize weapons from the Knin police station. You remember that,

19 don't you?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Is it not true that this attempt ensued after an attempted

22 intervention by Croatia's special police units?

23 MR. WHITING: It's a leading --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Please sit down. Thank

25 you.

Page 7158

1 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

2 MR. WHITING: Objection, it's leading.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You hear that, Mr. Milovancevic?

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Indeed I do.

5 I withdraw the question.

6 I think this is a convenient time for our break.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We will take the break and

8 come back at 4.00.

9 Court adjourned.

10 --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Witness, a while ago we looked at a portion of Ognjen Biserko's

15 statement. My question is: Which day was it that pursuant to an order of

16 the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Croatia that you tried to

17 seize weapons from the Knin police station?

18 A. There were two different times. The first was between the 16th

19 and the 17th of August, and the second was on the 17th of August at about

20 1200 hours.

21 Q. When did the break-in into the weapons depot of the reserve police

22 forces in Knin occur? Was that before or after your attempts?

23 A. The seizure of weapons occurred afterwards.

24 Q. That's sufficient. Thank you.

25 Do you remember being asked by the Prosecutor in cross-examination

Page 7159

1 whether the speeches made by the Serb leaders in Krajina saying that the

2 government was an Ustasha government were making people scared?

3 A. I don't remember that question.

4 Q. Can we please look at Exhibit 237?

5 Before the document appears on our screens, Witness, this is a

6 transcript of a conversation dated the 14th of October, 1990, between

7 Ministers Martin Spegelj and Josip Boljkovac. Can you please tell us what

8 sort of minister Martin Spegelj was?

9 A. He was Croatia's Minister of Defence.

10 Q. Thank you. As for Josip Boljkovac, you said he was the minister

11 who appointed you and because of whom you were called an Ustasha. Do you

12 remember that?

13 A. Yes. I remember that.

14 Q. Thank you. Do you have a document in English on the screen in

15 front of you? This is a conversation of the 14th of October, 1990. I

16 will read the first paragraph out to you.

17 Martin Spegelj says: "Listen, if the need arises at a crucial

18 moment, find two or three men to get rid of the most dangerous ones."

19 Mr. Boljkovac replies: "All right."

20 Martin Spegelj goes on to say: "Get them to get rid of them

21 physically. Somebody goes to the flat, a courier. He appears at the

22 door. Bang, bang, bang. Then goes down the stairs."

23 Josip Boljkovac replies: "And then they call the police to ask

24 who had done that."

25 Martin Spegelj proceeds: "Then he goes down the stairs, goes to

Page 7160

1 the next one, kills the next one, too, at the same time and that's that.

2 The most dangerous ones must be killed at their doorstep, regardless of

3 the women and children, regardless of anything."

4 Witness, do you understand this paragraph?

5 A. Yes. I understand what you are saying.

6 Q. We have here Croatia's defence minister asking the minister the

7 interior to make some people available for some killings. Does that not

8 appear to be a fact?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.

10 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm not sure how this arises out of

11 cross-examination.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecutor

14 tried to use his questions to elicit from the present witness an answer to

15 the following question: Were the people in Krajina scared because their

16 own politicians had scared them for no reason at all? I am now showing an

17 OTP document indicating that this was done because the government was

18 referred to as an Ustasha government. Now I'm showing an OTP document

19 with two crucial ministers in Croatia's government negotiating on how they

20 would have some people killed, and I'm merely asking the witness whether

21 that is his understanding as well.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: What does that got to do by scaring Serbs by

23 calling Croatians Ustashas? In this document you had it when you led this

24 witness. You could have led on it when you did lead the witness. I'm not

25 sure why -- I don't see the relationship to what you put to the witness,

Page 7161

1 that the Serb leaders called Croatian government Ustashas. We know that

2 people were being killed on both sides. That's a fact. But what has that

3 got to do with the term "Ustasha"?

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this point in

5 time, we know nothing. We are trying to ascertain the facts. The

6 Prosecutor claims that the people in Krajina had no reason to fear the

7 Croatian government. He speaks about the moral credibility of the

8 government being referred to as an Ustasha government and claims that that

9 gave the people reason to fear.

10 I am proceeding with this document. This is a very important

11 document, and I'm moving on to something else in the document which I'm

12 showing the witness in a minute. As I proceed, you will see the reasoning

13 behind this line of questions. So please, Your Honour, allow me to

14 proceed.

15 An objection was raised as to why I hadn't done it previously.

16 The reason was I got from the witness answers which I had been expecting

17 and which I was happy with. Now the Prosecutor is trying to represent

18 those same answers in a different light. I'm using this OTP document to

19 show that it's not what the Prosecutor claims it to be but something

20 entirely different.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm afraid, Mr. Milovancevic, you don't just ask

22 questions that you want to get. You ask questions also that advance your

23 case. And if you were aware of this document and you wanted to show that

24 two ministers in the Croatian government negotiated what you say they

25 negotiated, you could have done so. In any case, this document is an

Page 7162

1 exhibit. You say you call it Exhibit 237. The Chamber is going to read

2 it. It's going to see that, but it does not answer the allegation that

3 Serb leaders called Croatian government an Ustasha government with the

4 view to putting fear in the Serb people. It just does not answer that

5 question.

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours. Your Honours, I

7 think it is exactly the opposite of what you say, with due respect,

8 because this document is a document of the Prosecution. It was disclosed

9 to us three years ago and it has been exhibited. Despite the fact that it

10 has been exhibited, in this document, Minister Boljkovac says, "We will

11 use all means," and you will see that in the text below. And, "We will

12 resolve the problem of Knin with weapons. Knin shall perish." And the

13 other minister says, "The problem will be resolved by massacre." And

14 although this has been exhibited and it's on the record, my learned friend

15 insists on a completely different theory saying that there was no fear,

16 and the only fear was one artificially created with false stories about

17 people being in jeopardy.

18 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I don't know if it's necessary, but I

19 think that the Defence is misstating the position of the Prosecution. The

20 Prosecution is -- the position of the Prosecution is that the fears were

21 exaggerated by the Serb leaders, in part by using the term "Ustasha" and

22 making references to World War II. So I don't think -- I don't think that

23 this arises, and it's also information -- this is something I believe it's

24 on the record that this isn't something that came out until January of

25 1991.

Page 7163

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, I'm trying to get you to

2 understand one thing here. The purpose of re-examination is to clear

3 points that had remained unclear during cross-examination. The point you

4 are now pursuing did not arise on cross-examination, and you are now

5 eliciting completely new evidence which justifies a cross-examination.

6 Now, I -- if you'll let me finish. Now, I understand the Defence

7 case, what the Defence case is. This is what you are now doing is what

8 you should have done when you were leading your witness. And I'm saying

9 to you this document is in evidence. The Chamber is going to see this

10 document, and what you are pointing out to the witness right now the

11 Chamber is going to see. If you want to show this witness this document,

12 I have no problems with that, but you must then answer the allegation by

13 the Prosecution. The allegation by the Prosecution is that the Serb

14 leaders called the government of Croatia Ustashas in order to instill fear

15 amongst the Serbs. You've got to show me how this document answers that

16 or clarifies that. It doesn't seem to clarify that. And I'm afraid much

17 as it -- you may want to proceed with it, I don't see how you can.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my learned friend

19 just gave an explanation why I am asking these questions in redirect. My

20 learned friend says that these stories about Ustasha government were an

21 exaggeration of fear. Despite all the witness has said about his own

22 fears and the fears of others during examination-in-chief, and that was

23 corroborated by material, my learned friend insists that the fear was

24 exaggerated, and that is why I want you, Your Honours, to hear the witness

25 speak about the materials I'm going to show him to rebut the theory of the

Page 7164

1 Prosecutor.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is not the time to rebut, Mr. Milovancevic.

3 This is the time to clarify. The time to rebut was when you led your

4 witness. This is what I'm trying to say to you. This time you can't be

5 leading new evidence. And I'm afraid I must rule you out of order,

6 Mr. Milovancevic. Sorry, you can't ask any further questions on this

7 document.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

9 I just want to say one more thing. I'm not presenting new documents.

10 This is a document already in evidence that the Prosecutor is completely

11 ignoring.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I didn't say you're presenting a new document. I

13 said new evidence. This point is in evidence. I've been saying that to

14 you. I know it is in evidence. The Chamber is going to be read it. It's

15 going to be aware of what these two ministers said to each other, and it's

16 going to read all the other documents that both you and the Prosecution

17 have put into evidence but did not read entirely. You pointed us to

18 certain parts of it, but we are going to read the entire documents and we

19 will take the entire document into consideration. That is why the

20 document goes into evidence. You don't have to repeat -- you don't have

21 to repeat it.

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, but then with

23 such an approach of the Trial Chamber, redirect is pointless. I'm not

24 happy with one answer of the witness alone. I am trying to see what he

25 actually meant, and I'm asking him additional questions that should

Page 7165

1 provide me with the answers.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... on this

3 point. Okay? Can you proceed?

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. In response to questions by the Prosecutor, you spoke about the

6 Croatian government and said that it had legal grounds to seize weapons

7 from the reserve police force. Do you recall that?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Do you recall that in response to questions from the Prosecution

10 you explained that a buildup of the reserve police force was much higher

11 than actually needed and that only Croats were admitted and that Croat

12 ethnicity was the key criterion?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. Do you recall that you explained that Ante Bujas, in agreement

15 with the Ministry of the Interior of Croatia, explained to you that

16 weapons were seized from the reserve police force in order to arm those

17 new Croatian policemen?

18 A. I do.

19 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but those last two things

20 were things that were not on cross-examination, were on direct

21 examination, the fact that only Croats were admitted and the Croat

22 ethnicity was a key criterion. Unless I've forgotten, I don't believe I

23 asked any questions about that, and I asked only about the size of the

24 police force.

25 And the next question is also, I don't believe, something I

Page 7166

1 touched on in cross-examination. I think that was elicited on direct

2 examination,. Unless I'm mistaken and can be pointed to the page.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like to point us to the page,

4 Mr. Milovancevic?

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I accept the objection of the

6 Prosecution. That will not change the purpose of my further questions. I

7 accept the objection.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for accepting the objection. And then

9 can I tell you my complaint with those three questions is that you're just

10 asking him if he remembers things and he says yes. Now, I would like you

11 to ask him questions so that he gives you the answer, not that you give

12 him the answer and then he confirms the answer.

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. I

14 have just reached that point. I wanted to ask two or three background

15 questions before the last one that I'm going to ask of him now. I

16 understand. Thank you.

17 Q. Did the establishment of a mono-ethnic police force in a

18 multi-ethnic state represent a legal act?

19 A. By no means.

20 Q. Thank you. Do you recall that the Prosecutor showed you an

21 interview of Mr. Martic from August 1990, in which he says that he belongs

22 to the people's police, that he is against the Croatian government that is

23 creating evil and that he will only obey the people? Do you recall that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In this testimony, both in direct examination and in

Page 7167

1 cross-examination, there was a lot of talk about fear from genocide,

2 either genuine or created by artificial means. Were your fears justified

3 by actual events eventually?

4 A. The things that were talked about at the time and that were feared

5 came true.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, I don't like to interfere with

7 your cross-examination [sic]. You have asked a question which I thought

8 was laying a foundation. Do you recall that the Prosecutor showed you an

9 interview by Mr. Martic? Now the question doesn't follow from that

10 interview. You're now asking him about his fears. Now, those fears you

11 should have led him about them in examination-in-chief. What arises out

12 of this interview? Go to the interview. That's why you put that as a

13 foundation. Please stay relevant.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

15 appreciate your suggestion as entirely to the point.

16 Q. I will withdraw my last question, Witness. Let me ask you another

17 one.

18 The convictions of Mr. Martic expressed in his public speeches to

19 the effect that he was fighting the Croatian government that was creating

20 evil, did it prove correct?

21 A. Yes. His approach proved to be a correct one, especially because

22 it turned out that the Croatian side did not have much desire to hold

23 talks and to find a solution. The situation as it developed heralded a

24 war with large casualties on the Serbian side from 1991 to 1995.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 7168

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

2 questions.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

4 Judge?

5 Questioned by the Court:

6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Witness, may I start with the last point? This

7 interview where we saw a video clip, the interview of Milan Martic in

8 August 1990, did you see that at that time?

9 A. Yes. I saw it on Croatian TV when it was broadcast back then.

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can we go into private session, please?

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7169











11 Pages 7169-7170 redacted. Private session.















Page 7171

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 Judge?

23 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Now, the Chamber, Mr. Witness, would like to

24 continue asking you a few questions, and this is the question that I would

25 like you to answer, one of the questions, starting with this one: When

Page 7172

1 serious crimes had been committed, such as the murder of several people in

2 the village, in a particular village, would you normally report such

3 information immediately to the Knin Ministry of the Interior?

4 A. Your Honour, whenever a report came in or something like that

5 occurring, we would regularly go to the crime scene, we would carry out an

6 investigation, gather all the possible indicia, and any information that

7 was found on the scene in order to help us track down the perpetrator. We

8 would immediately send a dispatch to a body that was our direct superior.

9 In this case, it was the Knin SUP. If the number of casualties was

10 higher, such as two or three people killed, we would immediately inform

11 the Ministry of the Interior in Knin. Whenever we inspected crime scenes

12 in accordance with the law on criminal procedure, which represented rules

13 that applies to us, we would normally inform the Court as well with an

14 investigating magistrate present as well as a prosecutor. Whenever crimes

15 were more serious. We couldn't just gloss over them.

16 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm pleased to hear that. But could you tell us

17 further who you -- you or your superiors would report to?

18 A. We would submit a report to the district and public prosecutors.

19 Crimes that can be punished by sentence of up to five years are reported

20 to the district Prosecutor. Serious crimes are reported to the public

21 prosecutor who was in this case based in Knin. And then work continues

22 and other steps are taken. Any later results are submitted in a special

23 report to the prosecutor, informing the prosecutor of all our actions and

24 results. This only stopped once a case was resolved, or else a case could

25 remain open until further notice.

Page 7173

1 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: In terms of the Knin Ministry of the Interior,

2 which particular person or officer in the Ministry of the Interior would

3 you report to in sending in these reports that you mentioned when it was

4 more serious, that you sent in the reports? Could you give an indication

5 to us?

6 A. The Ministry of the Interior in Knin, as well as smaller,

7 lower-level units, had a duty service, and they were receiving all the

8 information from all over Krajina, all incoming reports. We would

9 normally send a dispatch to whichever department was on duty at the time.

10 In the Ministry of the Interior there was a duty officer who on the day of

11 his duty was responsible for the work of the entire ministry, in the

12 absence of the minister, his deputy and all the other high-ranking

13 officials. He was immediately notified about everything and aware of

14 everything that was going on. Whenever he had anything to add or to

15 request, he would make phone calls to us or send us a dispatch with his

16 requests.

17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And would he in turn report to the deputy and

18 the minister, that officer?

19 A. He would have been duty-bound to submit reports on such events to

20 the Ministry of the Interior. Normally that report was submitted to the

21 minister, his deputy and a number of heads of sections.

22 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. Now I'm going to go on to another

23 area. You stated that Mr. Martic, as president of the RSK, once ordered

24 that all perpetrators of serious crimes be arrested, particularly

25 murderers, and that these perpetrators were tried for a variety of

Page 7174

1 reasons -- sorry, that these perpetrators were tried but for a variety of

2 reasons they were not detained in prison and that they were eventually

3 released. Now, do you recall when this order was issued?

4 A. Your Honour, I think that was in 1994, but I can't remember the

5 specific date when this order was issued. I remember that I was out on a

6 mission in Benkovac at the time. We acted upon that order and we brought

7 some persons into the Knin station, from where they were taken to

8 Stara Gradiska, the reason being --

9 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Sorry, that's what I was going to ask you. What

10 crimes were they under suspicion for?

11 A. They were under suspicion for murder and murder alone, not any

12 misdemeanors.

13 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: What ethnic group did the persons under

14 suspicion belong to?

15 A. They were Serbs.

16 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And the victims, what ethnic group did they

17 belong to?

18 A. There were members of both ethnic groups among the victims, both

19 Serb and Croat.

20 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: In this instant case that you're speaking about,

21 the victims were both Serb and Croat, you're saying?

22 A. Precisely. There were both Croats and Serbs among the victims and

23 the perpetrators were, for God knows what reason, released and awaited

24 trial. For some reason, I think they couldn't secure sufficient witnesses

25 because of the war and the ongoing clashes. Eventually an order was given

Page 7175

1 for all of them to be arrested and taken to prison for a new trial or in

2 order to expedite the existing proceedings. The idea was to isolate those

3 perpetrators, not just leave them at large, but instead lock them away in

4 order to protect everybody else from them. I can only say that I met this

5 decision with great enthusiasm, although the decision itself was probably

6 not based on any existing law at the time but more a result of the

7 circumstances that prevailed amid a war.

8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: These tell me, those perpetrators, did they

9 belong to a particular unit; and if they did, please tell us which unit

10 they belonged to?

11 A. The perpetrators were for the most part military. They were

12 members of the army. I think I can say that with certainty, simply

13 because most of the Krajina army were professional soldiers who had been

14 trained to become soldiers.

15 If you look at certain types of information, such as Interpol

16 arrest warrants, you will see that not so frequent among those are

17 professionals or police officers. The majority is constituted by

18 civilians who became soldiers and then committed certain crimes. But the

19 UNCIVPOL knew about this. There is no doubt about that. Because during

20 our talks, they would certainly not have allowed for potential

21 perpetrators to continue to work as police officers. Certainly most of

22 the police force comprised professionals who were well trained to do their

23 job and not people like these.

24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well. But you have said that they were

25 part of the military. Could you give an indication, you cast your mind

Page 7176

1 back, be more specific, which particular unit or corps? Would you be able

2 to say at this stage? Could you tell us?

3 A. Your Honour, the order given by Mr. Martic at the time was in

4 reference to the entire Krajina area.

5 I remember the specific case at Benkovac. I had several such

6 cases, in fact, and we took in such persons and took them to our superior

7 command as had been indicated in our instructions. They were then taken

8 to Stara Gradiska near Okucani, which was located in Sector West under the

9 then UNPROFOR geographical division.

10 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Now, you testified that the judicial bodies for

11 all sorts of reasons, both objective and subjective, neglected their

12 duties and failed to carry out their tasks and that because of that,

13 Mr. Martic had to issue an order. That is Milan Martic. Do you know what

14 legal basis there was for Mr. Martic to issue such an order to detain

15 people? Are you able to say? Please tell us what the basis was.

16 A. At the time, the citizens and soldiers along the front line in the

17 town and elsewhere had a huge grievance against those persons who had been

18 suspected of murder. There was a public outcry because these people were

19 still walking around freely. This had an adverse effect on general

20 morale. And that was probably the reason that Martic made this decision.

21 I'm not sure which law he based this decision on at the time, but

22 it was probably based on some authority he enjoyed, simply because a state

23 of war had been declared. Be that as it may, it wasn't my job to question

24 the justification behind that order because it was an order that I had

25 received from my direct superior. All I had to do was to have it

Page 7177

1 implemented.

2 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: So in fact there might not have been any

3 authority in law for him to carry out this act by virtue of his office?

4 A. That is a possibility, but it's not for me to say.

5 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well. Now, could you also let me know

6 whether you were talking about one or two orders issued by Mr. Martic, and

7 also tell us exactly what you were ordered to do?

8 A. I'm talking about a single order issued by him, an order that we

9 received in a dispatch that was telexed to us from Knin. It said that the

10 substance applied to the entire territory of the Republic of Serbian

11 Krajina. We were ordered to arrest those people, take them to the Knin

12 command, and it was specified that they would later be sent to Sector

13 West. Certain measures were taken. No weapons were used during that

14 particular arrest, and these people were arrested such as people are

15 arrested in any other country. Their hands were tied to keep them from

16 trying to escape. That sort of measures.

17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Do you know whether these persons were ever

18 brought before a court or a judge to determine the legality of their

19 detention?

20 A. As far as I remember, there was a committee set up by the justice

21 ministry reviewing earlier cases in which persons were brought in. It was

22 based on this that they expedited a number of their proceedings and they

23 started getting some work done. I believe this led at the time to a

24 number of convictions. That's as far as my recollection of that specific

25 case goes, I'm afraid.

Page 7178

1 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And were these persons civilians, or were they

2 not?

3 A. Among those persons detained at the time, there were both

4 civilians and soldiers.

5 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Which unit would the soldiers have come from?

6 A. The soldiers came from a variety of units. The group comprised

7 20 to 30 persons.

8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And which were those variety of units?

9 A. I believe, or rather specifically I remember something that

10 happened in Benkovac.

11 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much. No further questions.

12 A. You're welcome.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge. I'm going to try and be brief

14 with you Mr. -- I'm sorry, I can't call your name.

15 Sometime today you were asked by the Prosecutor -- or, rather, I

16 think it was put to you by the Prosecutor that Davor Lukic was detained at

17 the Benkovac public security police station, and you said, no, he was in

18 the barracks and later ended up with the misdemeanours magistrate. Do you

19 remember that testimony by you?

20 A. I do, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: When did you come to know that he was in the

22 barracks and later ended up with a misdemeanours magistrate?

23 A. Your Honour, if I may expand a little on this. In this case I was

24 involved too. This was back in 2000, when I received word that there was

25 an Interpol arrest warrant out against me, that I was suspected of

Page 7179

1 mistreatment and inflicting grievous bodily harm against a person named

2 Davor Lukic. I thought hard about it, and I just couldn't seem to

3 remember when this happened or where, or who that person was. There were

4 four other persons in addition to myself who were accused of these actions

5 at the time, and I started looking into the matter.

6 I managed to find out about the remaining four persons, who they

7 were. I knew two of them, and two were unfamiliar. I knew two of these

8 persons from before, because they used to work in Benkovac at the police

9 station. I tracked down their addresses and these persons at the time

10 were residing in Serbia.

11 On one of my trips to Serbia, I went to their homes. We talked,

12 and after a while I asked them about this incident and they told me as

13 follows. Davor Lukic is a person they used to know from before because he

14 resided in their village, the same village as those two police officers,

15 or perhaps an adjacent village, but they all knew each other. That was

16 the gist. That day, the evening or night of that day, a civilian came

17 from the Republic of Croatia and approached the place where those two

18 police officers were standing. This was during a cease-fire, when there

19 was no fighting. These two police officers were members of the border

20 police at the Stabanj border crossing, a border crossing along the

21 Benkovac-Biograd road. This civilian approached them peacefully and when

22 they laid eyes on him they knew immediately that he was a Croat and that

23 he was on his way from Croatia. They IDed him and searched him. They

24 found a pistol on him and they claimed that the pistol was loaded. They

25 took him to a local station, police station, along the border. It used to

Page 7180

1 be a cafe, a catering establishment before the war but was now converted

2 to be used as a provisional police station.

3 They searched him and after that, they called in the military.

4 They called the nearby barracks. A military vehicle arrived and this

5 person was taken to Benkovac. After an interview --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I must interrupt you, Mr. Witness. You've told me

7 a whole page, you have still not answered my question.

8 I just want to know one simple little thing: When did you come to

9 know of the fact that Davor Lukic was held in the barracks and later

10 transferred to the misdemeanours magistrate? I've been waiting very

11 patiently for this answer. It's not coming. That's why I'm interrupting

12 you.

13 A. Your Honour, I was just going to come to this detail that he was

14 taken into custody, into the barracks, in 2000.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, please answer my question. Thank you

16 for all that speech. Now answer my question.

17 A. That was in 2000, 2001, approximately, when I found those two

18 young men, policemen.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you when you found policemen. I'm

20 asking when you came to know that Davor Lukic was kept in the barracks and

21 later ended up with misdemeanours magistrate. You see, it is these long

22 answers that you give that make you forget what the question is. I'm not

23 asking you about two young men.

24 A. I found out in 2000 or in 2001, when I found those two young men.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You also testified about cooperation

Page 7181

1 that you established between yourselves as the police in Serbian Krajina

2 with UNCIVPOL. You remember that?

3 A. I remember.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: What exactly did the orders to cooperate entail?

5 A. I don't understand, Your Honour. What do you mean "orders to

6 cooperate"? What is meant by that?

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your testimony at transcript 6882 to 883 says: "We

8 had orders to establish cooperation with them, and I don't think it is my

9 personal achievement in that area. It is a result of what we were asked

10 to do, what we were instructed to do, the entire police of the Republic of

11 Serbian Krajina had the same instructions, to cooperate with the UN

12 force."

13 What did the order entail?

14 A. Your Honour, now I understand. It was a telegram, a dispatch that

15 I received from my superiors, Secretariat of the Interior of Knin, which

16 was my superior station, invoking another dispatch that arrived from the

17 Ministry of the Interior. So that is the procedure whether another --

18 when a dispatch from a superior instance arrives, a similar dispatch is

19 made downward.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I stop you? What did the order entail? Just

21 tell me the contents of the order. I don't want to know the procedure.

22 A. Well, as far as I recall now, it said roughly that we should

23 extend all possible assistance to the United Nations civilian police in

24 their movement, to provide them with security by forming joint patrols,

25 and to provide them with information about whichever case they may be

Page 7182

1 interested in, and to try to establish a system of work wherein, if we

2 find that they are giving us useful advice, we should act according to

3 that advice, and that's what we did, upon which we compiled reports about

4 our cooperation with the United Nations CIVPOL and submitted these reports

5 to our superior command.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who issued the order?

7 A. I think at that time the Ministry of the Interior was Mr. Martic.

8 I think he signed it. Because the dispatch from Knin said that it was a

9 dispatch coming from the ministry, higher up, so it was probably the

10 minister or his deputy who wrote the original order.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you receive the order in writing?

12 A. Such orders are sent in the form of a telegram, a dispatch, in

13 writing. A telegram would arrive from your superior command.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would a telegram show a signature of the author?

15 A. There is no telegram on which you can see a signature because that

16 is the technique of transmission. It's not like a fax or a scan. It's a

17 different system, typing a wire, using the Morse code.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's why I'm asking you this question, because

19 you were suggesting that it was signed by Mr. Martic. My question really

20 is: How do you know it was signed by Mr. Martic if it was a telegram?

21 A. Your Honour, in the dispatch that I received from Knin, they were

22 invoking a corresponding dispatch from the Ministry of the Interior

23 because the Secretariat in Knin was the link between my station in

24 Benkovac and the Ministry of Croatia.

25 Let me give you an example. Usually a dispatch usually begins

Page 7183

1 with the words, "Pursuant to a dispatch from the MUP of the RSK, we

2 hereby" --

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Did the corresponding dispatch contain

4 an order to cooperate with UNCIVPOL?

5 A. Yes. In that dispatch, we were told to cooperate.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was the content of the corresponding dispatch,

7 the prior dispatch?

8 A. As far as I recall, in that prior dispatch, just a summary was

9 given, whereas the lower command provided more detail when conveying that

10 summary to the lower ranking unit.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the corresponding dispatch, in what form did it

12 come? Did it come by way of a telegram?

13 A. The dispatch from the ministry to the Knin SUP probably arrived by

14 means of cable, in the form of a telegram, but it could also have arrived

15 in the letter -- in the form of a letter, with a signature, because both

16 of these institutions were in Knin. And sometimes such documents were

17 delivered by courier because the buildings of the two institutions were

18 close by, in the same town, in Knin. Both the Knin SUP and the Ministry

19 of the Interior of the Serbian Krajina were in Knin. If we are talking

20 about the technical aspect of delivery.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You actually don't know how the corresponding

22 dispatch came, and in what form?

23 A. No, I don't know. I'm just assuming.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you cannot even say whether it was signed

25 itself?

Page 7184

1 A. No. I don't know whether it was signed. I'm just saying that it

2 was only the minister or his deputy who could have issued it.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Therefore, you cannot say the latter dispatch was

4 signed by the minister basing that on the assumption that it relates to

5 the previous dispatch, can you?

6 A. That's what I said. The dispatch sent to me was never signed by

7 the minister. It was signed by my immediate superior, the secretary of

8 the SUP.

9 It was not only that one. Never would a minister sign the

10 dispatch sent to lower-ranking units. He only signed the original order,

11 the original dispatch. The follow-up dispatches would be signed by chiefs

12 of lower-ranking units.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand you now. I thought earlier you

14 had said, which is why we were talking about Mr. Martic, you said he had

15 signed it now, and then you changed and said no, it cannot be signed

16 because it's a telegram. Now it is suddenly signed by your immediate

17 superior, the secretary of the SUP. Which is which between these three

18 versions?

19 A. Your Honour, without going into the contents of the dispatch, let

20 me say this briefly. The MUP sends a dispatch to Knin regarding

21 lower-ranking units. The SUP of Knin then takes this dispatch received

22 either in writing or as a telegram, forwards this dispatch to lower units.

23 In their dispatch, they invoke the prior dispatch and fleshes out the

24 orders given to the lower-ranking unit, and that second dispatch is signed

25 by the secretary, by the secretary of the Secretariat of the SUP. This

Page 7185

1 second dispatch does not contain the first one. It only invokes the first

2 one. It says "with reference to."

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I don't think we will get to the bottom

4 of this question. Let's move on to the next one.

5 Now, before this instruction to cooperate, was there any contact

6 between the Ministry of the Interior in Knin and UNCIVPOL on which

7 information would be provided by the police stations to UNCIVPOL?

8 A. I think there existed contacts on that level between the ministry

9 and the chief of sector. (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt you? Later, you're telling me

14 about something that happened later.

15 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this sentence, I,

17 and then the witness named his position, could be identifying for the

18 witness.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

20 Page 58, line starting at line 10 -- sentence starting at line 10

21 to 13, may it please be redacted?

22 I interrupted you, sir, because you were telling me about

23 something that took place later, whereas my question was asking you about

24 something that took place before.

25 My question to you was: Before you received these orders to

Page 7186

1 cooperate, had there been any contact between the Ministry of the Interior

2 of Knin and the UNCIVPOL on which information would be provided to the

3 police, by the police stations to UNCIVPOL? You said yes, there had been.

4 I was going to ask you the nature of that contact, but then you moved on

5 to telling me what happened after. Are you able to tell me the nature of

6 the contact that existed before you received this order?

7 A. Well, my first contacts with the CIVPOL were when the officers of

8 Norwegian police arrived; in fact, the officer. He was scouting to find a

9 good base for his police station. That was just in April 1992, just after

10 I arrived in that town.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And when did you receive the order to cooperate

12 with these UN forces?

13 A. If I remember well, that notification arrived just after we had

14 our first contacts. It was in fact an instruction on how we must behave

15 towards representatives of the UNCIVPOL.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know if other police stations provided

17 information directly to UNCIVPOL?

18 A. As far as I remember, it was compulsory for everybody in Sector

19 South, because I attended those meetings. Dalmatia and Lika was required

20 to assist based on the agreements reached between us. I don't know about

21 the other sectors.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: And did you receive any guidance from the Ministry

23 of the Interior as to which information was to be provided to the

24 UN forces?

25 A. No. We did not get any guidance from the ministry. For the most

Page 7187

1 part, we agreed that at meetings attended by secretaries of Knin and

2 Korenica SUPs, and also by all the rest of us, subordinates.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 May we -- I've lost track.

5 MR. WHITING: I think we are five minutes beyond the break time,

6 Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm awfully sorry. Maybe I should turn over to

8 somebody when I'm asking questions.

9 May we take the break and come back at quarter to 6.00. I'm

10 awfully sorry.

11 Court adjourned.

12 --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 5.48 p.m.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session?

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7188

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

15 Do you know whether Mr. Milan Martic had any contact with


17 A. Your Honour, I don't know that he had any contacts with UNCIVPOL.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: How would you then describe Mr. Milan Martic's

19 involvement in investigations into crime in the period 1991 to 1995?

20 A. As for his investigations into that, I don't know that he

21 conducted any. The investigations were conducted by inspectors on the

22 ground, together with their superiors. I don't see why he as a minister

23 should conduct investigations. He was probably kept informed. In fact,

24 he was kept informed about the course of the investigations through

25 reports. But that he conducted any himself, I don't think so.

Page 7189

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: But would you say in any case that he was aware of

2 what was going on in the police stations? I hear you say he was to be

3 kept informed.

4 A. I am speaking based on my experience. I did report to my

5 immediate superior command, and I believe others did as well. So based on

6 such reports, he was supposed to be informed of what was going on. It is,

7 of course, possible that somebody failed to inform him. I don't know, and

8 I cannot say anything about that.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

10 You spoke through your testimony about special police units. You

11 remember that?

12 A. I remember.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You also indicated that these police units were

14 involved in military work and border duties. Am I correct?

15 A. Well, the special units that I referred to were used in police

16 operations, but they were also involved in military operations.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And border guarding too?

18 A. At that time, special police units were not deployed on the border

19 because there was not enough personnel, and it was not necessary anyway.

20 It was the military who secured the borders and, before that, the units

21 that were called special units of the police that were later militarised.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say "at that time," which time are you

23 referring to?

24 A. I mean the time between the first part of the war until the

25 UNPROFOR arrived and was deployed in June 1992, until the beginning of

Page 7190

1 Maslenica 3 aggression. Those were special units of the police at the

2 time.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do not have the reference with me, but I

4 specifically remember you saying -- mentioning border duty as one of their

5 jobs, one of their duties. Are you saying that was not part of their job?

6 A. I cannot remember stating that special police guarded the border.

7 They manned just border crossings. At border crossings, there were

8 deployed police units that belonged to secretariats of internal affairs,

9 of which there were seven in RSK. Their job was to control border

10 crossings, and UNCIVPOL called these border crossings check-points.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the difference between border crossings and

12 borders?

13 A. Well, border crossings were roads connecting the Republic of

14 Serbian Krajina with Bosnia and Herzegovina and Vojvodina in Serbia, and

15 also the RSK with Croatia. Those were thoroughfares on which there was

16 traffic of people, vehicles, et cetera, whereas the border is the line

17 delimiting the entire Krajina. At that time, it was guarded by

18 specialised units of the police. That's what they were called. And at

19 border crossings there were simple police units who were based in SUPs,

20 secretariats of internal affairs.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, I would like to -- I would like to understand

22 you very clearly, because now you're talking of borders guarded by

23 specialised units of the police, and I'm asking you about the duties of

24 the special police units. Is there a difference between specialised units

25 of the police and special police units? Are these two different entities?

Page 7191

1 A. Your Honour, there may have been a misinterpretation. What I

2 would like to do is show you or draw for you what a border crossing meant.

3 Border crossings were --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt you? I understood what you meant

5 by border crossings. I understand that by border crossings you're talking

6 of check-points on the roads within the SAO Krajina. And borders you're

7 talking about the borders of the country outside. I understand that. I'm

8 not asking you about that. I'm asking about specialised units of the

9 police and special police units. Are these two different entities?

10 A. Yes. These are two different bodies.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Now, yesterday you said -- this is

12 where I get the question of borders from, and please correct it if I'm

13 wrong, there were two different kinds of formation. Units that were in

14 charge of policing, police work, and special purpose units whose task was

15 to watch the borders, to a lower extent, and also to cooperate with the

16 civilian element of UNPROFOR. That's your evidence yesterday. And then

17 the correction said, no, with the military element of UNPROFOR.

18 Do you remember that evidence? And I'm not pinning you down to

19 saying that their job should be the borders. I'm just saying that's what

20 you said yesterday. And I understand your clarification that by borders

21 then yesterday you meant border crossings. Am I right?

22 A. Your Honour, specialised police units worked with the military

23 component of UNPROFOR, whereas the civilian police were the public

24 security stations. And only that small amount who worked at border

25 crossings and let people through actually worked with UNCIVPOL.

Page 7192

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you mean by "only that small amount"?

2 Small amount of what and what is small amount, in terms of quantity?

3 A. When I say a small amount, all I mean is the road being controlled

4 by members of the police who were few, and these people belonged to the

5 SUPs, to the secretariats of internal affairs.

6 As for areas between two border crossings, these distances were

7 sometimes as huge as 30 kilometres, and those were guarded by specialised

8 police units. The distances in between. And they were the ones working

9 with the military component.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Now don't confuse me. These specialised

11 police units were called special police units, were they not? And they

12 controlled border crossings? Are we agreed on that?

13 A. No. They were not the ones controlling the border crossings.

14 They were just guarding the border from incursions by the enemy.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The external border of the country, the boundaries

16 of the entire country; that is, the boundaries of Croatia --

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The boundaries of Croatia or the boundaries of

19 Yugoslavia or the boundaries of SAO Krajina? Which boundaries?

20 A. The boundaries of SAO Krajina.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Now, who worked on the border crossings

22 inside SAO Krajina? The civilian police?

23 A. The civilian police worked at border crossings which were also

24 along SAO Krajina's borders. There were no internal borders within

25 SAO Krajina. But it was members of UNCIVPOL that refused to call these

Page 7193

1 border crossings because the Croats complained. Rather, they elected to

2 refer to them as check-points.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fine. That's -- don't confuse us. You see, when

4 you start giving long answers -- I'm trying to get clarity here. And I

5 put my questions in such a way that if you answer me yes or no, you'll

6 have given me the full answer I want. Your explanations confuse me

7 further. Now I ask you again: The civilian police are the ones who

8 worked on the border crossings, what CIVPOL called check-points?

9 A. Yes.


11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And these civilian police wore uniforms when they

13 worked there, or didn't they?

14 A. Yes. They did.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. And I would like to get clarity. There is

16 an allegation -- maybe let me back-track a little bit.

17 Were they ever accompanied by other people who were not in

18 uniform, civilian people, for instance, on their duties on the border

19 crossing?

20 A. You could not control those border crossings with no uniform.

21 This is traffic control and it's done wearing a uniform. There are

22 prescriptions to that effect.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what did they do on the border crossings? What

24 were they doing? I would imagine that traffic is normally controlled by

25 the traffic signs. Why was -- why were they on border crossings?

Page 7194

1 A. Between the end of June 1992 and the 22nd of January, 1993,

2 between the Republic of Serbian Krajina and Croatia, there had been a wave

3 of migrations, and also UNPROFOR forces began to move. CIVPOL were

4 transporting people who needed to travel from one area to the other.

5 Sometimes there was a death in a family and people needed to travel, and

6 that's why traffic occurred along these roads. Things were being said to

7 the effect that the population would begin to shift from Krajina into

8 Croatia and back, and we set up these stations in order to control these

9 waves.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: While you were working in Knin all the time, I'm

11 talking about the entire period that you were there, did you ever come to

12 hear of the term "Martic's Police"?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did it mean?

15 A. I came across the term in Croatian media. My understanding at the

16 time was they used the term to mean the entire police force in the

17 Republic of Serbian Krajina, or even something much broader, sometimes

18 even all the citizens who were wearing uniforms.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You also testified, and I think this was

20 yesterday, that the specialised police who had -- who were police already,

21 received further training at Golubic. Am I correct? Am I interpreting

22 your evidence correctly?

23 A. The already-existing police stations and units in 1991, some of

24 them volunteered to go to receive further training at Golubic.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you ever go there for further training

Page 7195

1 yourself?

2 A. I didn't.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know what further training was provided at

4 Golubic?

5 A. As far as I know, the Golubic camp was set up after the operation

6 at Plitvice and the clashes with the Croatian side, the Croatian police.

7 That's when the need arose to set up specialised units of the police that

8 were meant to protect the people and SAO Krajina as a whole.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me repeat my question: Do you know what

10 further training they received at Golubic?

11 A. I didn't undergo training at Golubic myself, nor was I ever there.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You answered that question already. My question is

13 simply: Do you know what further training was provided to these police at

14 Golubic? If you don't know, it's no sin. Just say, "I don't know."

15 A. I wasn't there to know.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't know things that you were at only. You

17 know things that you haven't seen. You have not been to the sun but you

18 do know there is a sun, don't you? And have you been to the sun? Then

19 answer my question. That's why I say you must listen to the question and

20 answer it correctly.

21 I'm saying: Do you know what further training was provided at

22 Golubic?

23 A. I think there was additional physical and military training.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you what you think. I'm asking you

25 what you know. Do you know or don't you know? Please listen to the

Page 7196

1 question and answer the question. And I say, if you don't know, nobody is

2 going to harass you for that. I just want to know if you know or you

3 don't know. But please answer questions relevantly.

4 Do you know or don't you know?

5 A. As I say, I wasn't there, but I heard about it. And I can --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want me to let the record show that you're

7 refusing to answer this question or is there any reason you can't answer

8 me? I don't think my question is such a complicated question. I'm not

9 asking you whether you were there. I'm just asking if you do know.

10 A. I do.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do. What was the further training?

12 A. Military training.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

14 Thank you. I have no further questions.

15 Mr. Milovancevic, any questions arising from the questions by the

16 Bench?

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. None. Thank

18 you.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.

20 MR. WHITING: Very few, Your Honour.

21 Further cross-examination by Mr. Whiting:

22 Q. Witness, I just have three or four questions.

23 You testified in response to Her Honour Judge Nosworthy's

24 questions that in respect to the -- those arrests that were made in 1994

25 that the perpetrators were for the most part military. Do you recall that

Page 7197

1 answer that you gave?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. And then you were asked some questions about what units they

4 belonged to, and I just want to clarify one thing. When you say they are

5 military, I take it you mean they were members of the RSK army, the

6 Republika Srpska Krajina army? Is that correct?

7 A. Yes. Members of the RSK army, that's true.

8 Q. And to your knowledge, to the extent that you know, were the

9 crimes, the murders for which these individuals were arrested, were they

10 committed while the individuals were in the RSK army?

11 A. Well, it's a question about the army. Was this particular person

12 on duty or off duty at the time? I'm not sure what you mean.

13 Q. Well, I guess there are two parts to the question. First, were

14 they even in the army at all at the time that the alleged murder was

15 committed; and then secondly, do you know whether at the time the alleged

16 murder was committed they were on duty or off duty? Do you know that

17 information or is that information that you do not know?

18 A. Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, please allow me to explain there. Along the

19 line where there was an army presence, there was no population and no

20 villages as a result of the long-raging war. Murders could only have been

21 committed further off from the front line in the hinterland but then they

22 would have been off duty, wouldn't they?

23 Most of the crimes were not committed while these soldiers were on

24 duty somewhere along the front line but, rather, when they why free, when

25 they were off. They could still have been members of the army but they

Page 7198

1 had a day off, and they would be back on duty the next day. That sort of

2 thing.

3 Q. I understand. Now, my next question is: At the time they were

4 arrested in 1994, were they still members of the RSK army? At the time

5 they were arrested.

6 A. As far as I know, most of them still were, but maybe some

7 weren't. Because, after all, the area in question is quite large, and I

8 wasn't receiving reports from all over Krajina submitted to me for

9 analysis.

10 Q. Well, I'm only asking to the extent you know, not about things you

11 don't know. So with regard to the cases that you knew about or that you

12 were involved with, in those cases, were the individuals that were

13 arrested still members of the RSK army?

14 A. Some were not.

15 Q. And I understand from that answer that some were. Some were; some

16 were not?

17 A. Yes, some were, that's true. Quite right when you say that.

18 Q. Now, finally, you were just asked about the term "Martic's

19 Police," and you said that you heard about it in the Croatian media.

20 Isn't it a fact that this was a term that was also used by Serbs in the

21 SAO Krajina?

22 A. Some Serbs used that term, you're quite right.

23 Q. And isn't it the case also that some members of the police in the

24 SAO Krajina used that term, referred to themselves as Martic's Police?

25 A. I'm not familiar with that particular piece of information.

Page 7199

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further

3 questions.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 Thank you, Witness. This brings us to the end of your testimony.

6 The Chamber takes this opportunity to thank you for coming to testify. We

7 understand that you should be a busy person and you take time off from

8 your busy schedule. It's much appreciated. Once again, thank you for

9 coming and you are now excused. You may stand down.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honours. I

11 also wish to thank you everybody in this courtroom, all the parties. I

12 sincerely hope that I have contributed to the success of this trial to

13 some extent at least. I wish you every luck in your future work as well

14 as a successful conclusion to this trial. I also wish you every luck in

15 your private lives.

16 Thank you.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you calling your witness, Mr. Milovancevic?

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are ready to

21 call the next witness. We have about 20 minutes left and I think we

22 should be off.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well --

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That's as long as the Chamber

25 agrees. Perhaps the Chamber believes that it's better to start the

Page 7200

1 witness anew on Monday. We would certainly not be opposing that proposal.

2 We don't have much time left in today's session, after all. We can elicit

3 personal information from the witness, but we can't do more

4 than mere technicalities with the remaining time now.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's just that the Chamber has some housekeeping to

6 handle and we could use this time to do that.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do have one

8 thing to share with the Chamber.

9 The witness's visa expires on Wednesday which leaves us with

10 Monday and Tuesday to deal with the witness, both in chief and in cross.

11 I sincerely believe this is something that we can accomplish. But that's

12 what I wanted to share with you. I think it's important and that's all.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You will understand, Mr. Milovancevic, that you are

14 in control of that. If you ask short questions and you elicit short

15 answers, we might be able to achieve that.

16 But my question to you is: Do you want to call him? If you want

17 to call him, you can call him. The Chamber has some housekeeping to deal

18 with.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That should

20 be fine. I think we can go straight to our housekeeping matters.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 Now, the Chamber is very seriously concerned about time. This

23 witness, according to the Defence estimate, should have been here for

24 seven hours. By the time Mr. Milovancevic, you were through, with your

25 evidence-in-chief, he had gone well beyond ten hours. Now, I'm trying to

Page 7201

1 be conservative because I just don't have a clear memory on what time he

2 started on the day he started to testify, but certainly he had gone beyond

3 ten hours. It could have been 12.

4 Now, I'm sure you are aware of the Rule 73 ter notice decision

5 that was handed down, which has cut down the Defence time by some 40

6 hours, and we've got to try and fit in, okay, in the time scheduled. We

7 are not likely to do so at the rate at which we are going, if we are going

8 to go according to the time we took on this witness.

9 I'm saying this and I'm trying to be very cool about it. I'm

10 saying to you, we realise -- you indicated yesterday that you're cutting

11 down your witnesses --

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Can we move into private session very

14 quickly?

15 May we move into private session, please?.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7202











11 Pages 7202-7206 redacted. Private session.















Page 7207

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, before you proceed, Mr. Milovancevic, your

12 learned friend was on his feet.

13 Mr. Black.

14 MR. BLACK: It was simply that, that exact point about open

15 session, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black.

17 You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. We will later enumerate the various positions you held in that

20 public security station and in SUP Sibenik.

21 Can you tell us whether those good interpersonal and intra-ethnic

22 relations in Drnis continued?

23 A. The relations were as I qualified them until January 1990.

24 Q. What happened then? Did anything change?

25 A. Absolutely. When the multi-party elections were announced,

Page 7208

1 relations were disrupted in the whole town, in the municipality, but also

2 in the station itself, to some extent.

3 Q. When you say the relations among ethnicities and among people were

4 disrupted, you mentioned multi-party elections. When were they held?

5 Which elections do you mean?

6 A. I cannot tell you precisely when the law prescribed or scheduled

7 those elections, but already in August 1990 the pre-election campaign

8 started.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move into private

10 session, please?

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7209

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. When you described the atmosphere in the town of Drnis and in your

7 own workplace, you said relations among people were very good, even

8 excellent, and you said there was a change after the elections were

9 scheduled. How was that change felt?

10 A. In the station itself, the change manifested itself because one

11 policeman was dismissed for failing to perform his duties, and then he was

12 returned to his job under the pressure of powerful people from the HDZ,

13 the Croatian Democratic Union party.

14 Q. Does that mean that his return somehow disrupted relations within

15 the station?

16 A. His return did not disrupt the relations but it marked the

17 beginning of distrust.

18 Q. What happened outside of the police station, in the town and in

19 the municipalities, in view of those elections?

20 A. In the town and in the municipality, rallies began to be held. At

21 first, it was only smaller groups of people who were involved, but as time

22 passed, it began to look like a major happening. Larger and larger crowds

23 gathered to attend those rallies. The gathering of large crowds inclined

24 to certain behaviour was subject to sanctions in the republic and federal

25 law, and there began to be expressed a Serbophobia.

Page 7210

1 Q. What kind of gatherings do you mean? Cultural? Sports events?

2 What kind?

3 A. I meant rallies for the Croatian Democratic Union which used

4 prohibited iconography, wherein representatives of the HDZ behaved like SS

5 detachments in the Second World War. They chanted certain songs, used

6 certain forms of salute, including a particular Ustasha salute from the

7 Second World War. There were popular celebrations with oxen roasted on

8 the spit, the use of flags which were then prohibited, et cetera.

9 Q. Talking about all these flags that were being flown, which were

10 the ones that were allowed and which were the ones that were not allowed

11 at the time? You're talking about early 1990, aren't you?

12 A. The only flags allowed at the time was the SFRY flag with a

13 five-pointed star and the flag of the Republic of Croatia which also had a

14 star.

15 Q. When you say "the Republic of Croatia," what exactly do you mean?

16 A. The Socialist Republic of Croatia. When I say the SFRY, that

17 stands for the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia.

18 Q. You say those were HDZ rallies, political rallies. Can I ask you

19 directly, were these pre-election rallies?

20 A. Yes, precisely.

21 Q. Were these HDZ rallies only at the municipal level or were there

22 other rallies that were organised at other levels?

23 A. These rallies weren't just at the municipal level, at least at the

24 time, and I can't give you the exact month. Franjo Tudjman himself

25 attended one of these. There were also other representatives of the HDZ

Page 7211

1 from Split and other major Croatian towns in attendance.

2 Q. You mentioned some songs that people were chanting at those

3 rallies and some battle cries, if I may call them that.

4 A. I'll give you several examples that might require some

5 interpreting. The first to come were the salutes, ready for the homeland,

6 accompanied by a fascist salute with an arm raised. The next one was a

7 song that went this way: My little knife, spattered with blood, all you

8 want is Serbian flesh, Serbian liver. And the next one said: It's not

9 wine that we Croats drink. What we drink is the blood of Serbs from Knin.

10 And all the Ustasha things and everything else.

11 Q. Witness, you used the word Ustasha mottos. What does that mean?

12 A. Ustasha slogans, for example the use of the letter U which was

13 worn by a special unit called Ustashas during World War II on their caps.

14 Next came the chequerboard with no other insignia which was also a sign of

15 the Independent State of Croatia from the Second World War as well as the

16 glorification of certain Ustasha leaders such as Ante Pavelic and others.

17 Q. You also talked about slogans that were used. You mentioned lines

18 from some songs. What were the slogans, the specific slogans that were

19 used?

20 A. For the most part, as follows: We do not want the Serb militia of

21 Priest Djuic. The next was: We do not want any Serbian spawn in Croatia.

22 The next one was: Serbs back across the Drina. This is a Croatian state.

23 It is a historical Croatian state, and there is no room in it for Serbs or

24 Yugoslavs.

25 Q. Did these slogans disrupt relations between people and between the

Page 7212

1 different ethnic groups at the time, especially in your area, in Drnis and

2 its surroundings?

3 A. I'll try to depict the situation for you in terms as simple as

4 possible.

5 Most of the Croats refused to use this sort of language and all

6 these slogans. They even denounced it. But most Serbs, if not all Serbs,

7 were afraid. Groups were formed, people started joining forces, and

8 opinions were exchanged as to what they should do next. That's how it

9 looked at the time.

10 Q. You talked about these political pre-election rallies, and you

11 said that members of a political party taking part in these elections were

12 there, the HDZ. You even say that one of these rallies was attended by

13 the party president himself, Franjo Tudjman. I think you mentioned the

14 location as the Miljevac plateau.

15 Were the representatives of this party present at these rallies

16 publicly in opposition to these slogans and to the behaviour of the

17 crowds? Did they express their opposition publicly?

18 A. Aside from the top leadership, the lower-ranking officials of the

19 party would drive people on to madness. They were infected by rage,

20 madness and hatred.

21 Q. When you speak about what was happening at all these pre-election

22 rallies, can you tell us how you obtained this information? How do you

23 know about all of these things that you've now shared with us?

24 A. It was in the line of duty that I learned about this because I was

25 in charge of security for these rallies, most of them, if not actually

Page 7213

1 all. They were announced, there was a legal obligation to announce such

2 rallies, and I was in charge of police security at these.

3 Q. Does that mean that it was the police that provided security at

4 these rallies in order to uphold law and order? Is that what you're

5 trying to say?

6 A. Precisely.

7 Q. Can you name an example of how these slogans and speeches that

8 were held affected those present? Do you have any personal insight into

9 that?

10 A. Briefly. The village of Gradac, Drnis municipality, I don't know

11 which month, spring, possibly early summer, I was at a rally with massive

12 amounts of people in attendance, 5.000 or 6.000 people, and where I come

13 from that's quite a crowd. I went there with some police officers to

14 provide security. When I arrived in that village, and a lot of people

15 there know me because I had worked in the area for quite a long time, so

16 people came to greet me. Many of them invited me to share a drink. Their

17 intentions were pure as driven snow.

18 However, after the rally, and I'm not sure who that person is

19 called who was in charge of the rally, no one spoke to me again, no one

20 called me again, no one invited me to share drinks with them. Something

21 extremely unpleasant happened to me. There was a man walking on crutches,

22 he approached me. He raised a crutch and hit me over the head. As a

23 result, my cap fell on the ground. All this was filmed by a Croatian TV

24 crew in a bid to show how badly the Serb police were behaving. I went to

25 the president of the municipality, who was in one of the adjacent houses,

Page 7214

1 and I told him about what was going on. Or, rather, I asked him what it

2 was that was going on.

3 After that no one spoke to me again. Even before all of this, at

4 the very beginning of this rally I noticed a group of people, elderly

5 people, more serious people you might say, who were saying, this is no

6 place nor us, "Let's all just up sticks and go home." Croatian people.

7 Elderly people, ethnic Croats, but serious people.

8 Q. Does that mean that the pre-election rallies themselves directly

9 affected the behaviour of the population? Is that what you're trying to

10 say?

11 A. I'm certain about that. That was the main vehicle for the

12 propagation of fear and hatred, I'm quite certain about that.

13 Q. Thank you for that.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think this

15 might be a convenient time to break for the day.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, we are sorry you've just started, but this

17 is the time we knock off. We will have to come back on Monday.

18 The Court will adjourn to Monday, the 28th of August, at quarter

19 past 2.00 in the afternoon.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Monday, the 28th day of

22 August, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.