1 Tuesday, 10 October 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just remind you, sir, that you took a -- made

7 a declaration yesterday to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing

8 else but the truth. You are still bound by that declaration today, to

9 tell the truth. Okay? Thank you very much.

10 Mr. Milovancevic, two questions.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct. Thank you,

12 Your Honours. Good morning to you.

13 WITNESS: NIKOLA MEDAKOVIC [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examination by Mr. Milovancevic: [Continued]

16 Q. Mr. Medakovic, yesterday, at one point you mentioned that you

17 learned about the number of people who had arrived from Zagreb, that there

18 were 200 of them who had arrived in trucks and with weapons, from Vlado

19 Vukovic who had been captured. My question is: What was his occupation,

20 and was he mistreated in order to acquire that information?

21 A. Yesterday, in my evidence, I mentioned that this group, in passing

22 through Glibodolski Kriz, captured our guards. On the following day, we

23 severed off the roads leading from Saborsko to Slunj in order to collect

24 prisoners for exchange. We didn't want our nine people to remain in

25 Saborsko for a long period of time.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, the question is: What was his

2 occupation, and was he mistreated? Can you just deal with that, please.

3 What was his occupation?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a policeman in Saborsko.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was he mistreated?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. He was brought to Plaski.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Q. You gave an answer to my question as to whether he was mistreated

10 but you were interrupted. Were you going to say anything else?

11 A. I was going to say that following the exchange, the group who had

12 captured Vlado Vukovic and two other Croatian policemen brought them to

13 Plaski. Vlado Vukovic spent a night in Plaski. He wasn't mistreated. He

14 was even invited to attend a birthday party of the man who captured him.

15 Q. Thank you. The second question I'm going to put to you is: Did

16 you write a letter to Rudolf Spehar; and if so, when and why?

17 A. Following the completion of the operation to leave the siege, or

18 rather after the operation on Saborsko, on the 13th of November, I wrote a

19 letter to Rudolf Spehar and I sent it via civilians who expressed a desire

20 to go to Ogulin.

21 Q. And in my question I also asked you why.

22 A. I said in my evidence earlier that I had talked to Rudolf Spehar

23 several times. He was president of Ogulin municipality. I also felt a

24 need to explain to him what had happened in Saborsko and why.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has

2 completed its examination-in-chief. Thank you. Thank you, Witness.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

6 Mr. Whiting, yesterday you wanted to raise an issue during the

7 middle of the examination-in-chief. I asked you if you could hold it

8 back. Would you like to raise it at this point, before you start your

9 cross-examination?

10 MR. WHITING: Well, Your Honour, from my point of view, there is

11 no need to raise it now. We can raise it -- I'm ready -- I'm prepared to

12 start my cross and go forward. It is an issue -- it's a serious issue and

13 it's an issue that we think bears on future witnesses, and I'm happy to

14 raise it when this witness is finished.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting. It is actually

16 the most appropriate moment to do it at that time, but I thought you were

17 in a hurry to do so.

18 MR. WHITING: I was. No longer. I'm fine to proceed, Your

19 Honour. May I proceed?

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.

21 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Whiting:

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Medakovic. Is it Medakovic or Medakovic? How

24 do you pronounce your name?

25 A. Medakovic.

1 Q. I will do my best. My name is Alex Whiting. I'm one of the

2 Prosecutors in this case. Good morning.

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. Before I ask any questions, I have to send an e-mail to the

5 Defence, which I have now done.

6 Sir, can you tell me when you were first interviewed by the

7 Defence of Milan Martic? And when I say that, I mean when you were first

8 interviewed by an investigator, by lawyers for Mr. Martic. When were you

9 first contacted?

10 A. I don't remember the exact date, but I think it was in September

11 and it was through the investigator, Mr. Nikolic.

12 Q. September of what year, sir?

13 A. This year, 2006.

14 Q. You were contacted for the first time in September of 2006?

15 That's the first time you spoke with somebody from the Defence of Milan

16 Martic?

17 A. Yes, that's correct. Maybe it was late August, but certainly not

18 earlier than that.

19 Q. How was that contact made? Were you called on the phone? Were

20 you met in person?

21 A. The first contact was made on the phone with Mr. Radivoj Nikolic,

22 and then we met in person.

23 Q. When you met in person, were you interviewed? Did he interview

24 you?

25 A. Yes, yes. I actually remembered, I apologise, that he had called

1 me earlier on the phone. I think it was in July. Yes, in July he called

2 me on the phone for the first time, and then the first meeting we had was

3 in September.

4 Q. And that's July of 2006?

5 A. Yes, yes. Correct.

6 Q. By the way, when is the last time you spoke with Milan Martic,

7 himself?

8 A. It's hard to say. I can't remember the date, but certainly while

9 we were still in Krajina. I've never seen him in Serbia, except when I

10 saw him at the airport, when he was on his way here.

11 Q. Were you at the airport on that day?

12 A. Yes. In the group of people seeing him off. I wasn't alone

13 there. There was a group of people, so I doubt that he saw me. But I saw

14 him.

15 Q. And that was approximately May of 2002; correct?

16 A. I can't remember the exact date. I know it was several years ago.

17 Q. It was in 2002; correct? You can't remember that?

18 A. I think so, but I can't be sure.

19 Q. Can you tell us why you went to the airport that day?

20 A. I have known Mr. Martic for a long time and I have great respect

21 for him, as a man. I consider him my friend. And I felt it my duty to

22 see my president off, just like other people from Krajina did.

23 Q. Do you still consider him your president?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Even to this day?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Let's go back to your interviews with the Defence. You say you

3 were interviewed in August of 19 -- or sorry, August of 2006. Was that

4 interview recorded?

5 A. I sent a fax to Mr. Nikolic. I sent it from the company where I

6 worked at the time, and it was a statement that I wrote by myself. I

7 wrote my personal particulars there - date of birth, education - and then

8 what I did during the war. I wrote it in my own hand. My handwriting is

9 rather bad. And it was two pages long. Following that, we spoke in his

10 office, and then we met once in Novi Sad. And that was all as far as our

11 contacts are concerned. Then I saw him once again, just prior to coming

12 here when he gave me my passport and my visa, because he was doing that

13 for me.

14 Q. Now, sir, if you could listen carefully to my question and answer

15 my question. When you met with the Defence investigator, was the

16 conversation recorded?

17 A. I can't say. I didn't notice that it was being recorded.

18 Q. The statement that you wrote, the two-page statement that you

19 wrote and faxed, did you sign it? Was it signed by you?

20 A. I think so.

21 Q. I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand your answer. You think so?

22 We're talking about August of 2006, which, by my count, is some two or

23 three months ago. Do you not remember if you signed it or not?

24 A. I wrote it by my own hand and I sent it by fax, since I work in

25 Novisad and Mr. Nikolic was in Belgrade. And that was in July. Most

1 likely I signed it, just like I sign other documents. I think I did sign

2 it, but I hesitate with my answer because I'm not fully sure and I don't

3 want to make a mistake. It is certain, though, that it was in my own

4 handwriting. Nobody else wrote it but me.

5 Q. Are you having trouble remembering these events that happened in

6 July of 2006? Because you've been testifying here about events that

7 occurred in 1990/1991.

8 A. I tried to remember important events. I don't see the writing of

9 a statement and whether I signed it as something so important that

10 requires me to remember it. This contained only my personal particulars.

11 Nothing else.

12 Q. When you were interviewed in August of 19 -- sorry, August of

13 2006, you say you don't know if it was recorded. Was any statement

14 written out that you signed or read over containing the information that

15 you provided?

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Excuse me, Mr. Whiting, didn't the witness say he

17 was interviewed in September?

18 MR. WHITING: I thought he said August, but maybe I'm -- well I

19 can ask the witness.

20 Q. Sir, did you say you were interviewed in August or September of

21 2006, when you met in person with the Defence investigator in Belgrade?

22 A. I said that it was in September, maybe in August. I don't

23 remember the exact date, but it was definitely late August or early

24 September.

25 Q. Now, when you were interviewed, was a statement taken? Was the

1 information written down and did you review the information? Did you sign

2 anything?

3 A. Yes, I did look over my statement. It had two typed pages with my

4 particulars, what I did during the war, when I came to Serbia, things like

5 that.

6 Q. Well, it also talked about these events that you've testified

7 about, didn't it? What happened in Plaski, what happened in Saborsko.

8 A. That's correct. It said that I was involved in negotiations;

9 correct. It was an abbreviated version of what I said in my evidence

10 yesterday.

11 Q. And this is the second time you've come to The Hague, isn't it?

12 You were here some two weeks ago, nearly three weeks ago, for testimony;

13 right?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And when you came here that first time to testify, did you meet

16 with Defence counsel, Mr. Milovancevic?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And did you talk about your testimony?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you review documents?

21 A. I reviewed my statement, and I think that I saw some other

22 documents, two or three of them.

23 Q. And, sir, when you met with Mr. Milovancevic on that occasion and

24 you went over your testimony, you told him everything that you have told

25 the Court here yesterday; correct?

1 A. Yes, approximately so. Whenever you start talking of a topic,

2 things start coming back to you. These things didn't take place two or

3 three years ago but many more years ago. And yesterday, for example, I

4 made a mistake in the first name of one of the two Susnar men. I

5 apologise to the Trial Chamber, but it just occurred to me later.

6 Q. I don't recall. Did you have an opportunity to correct that

7 mistake or do you want to correct that mistake now?

8 A. I would like to correct it now. I made a mistake in the first

9 name. The last name was correct, but I made a mistake in the first name.

10 Q. And why don't you make that correction. Go ahead.

11 A. When talking of the event at Glibodolski Kriz, I said that Susnar

12 Milan, Susnar Bogdan and Petrovic Bogdan died. The name of the other

13 Susnar person is Stevo. I erroneously said his first name was Bogdan and

14 I apologise to the Trial Chamber for that.

15 Q. Now, going back to my question, is it fair to say that, aside from

16 a few details, all the important matters that you told the Trial Chamber

17 about yesterday were things that you had told the Defence about in your

18 previous meetings; correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to put a -- I'm going to put a series of

21 statements to you, sir, because I want you to know, from the very start,

22 what our position is concerning your testimony. Do you follow me? Do you

23 follow what I'm saying?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Because our position is that you have turned reality on its head.

1 Do you follow what I'm saying?

2 A. My position is that you are trying to do that yourself.

3 Q. I see, sir. Just listen to my question and answer my question.

4 Do you follow what I'm saying? Do you understand what I'm saying?

5 A. I understand what you're saying, but I disagree with it.

6 Q. I understand. Now, with respect to each of these statements, I'm

7 just going to ask you to tell me if you disagree or you agree with the

8 statement. We don't need to have explanation or anything more. Just tell

9 me if you agree or disagree, and we'll get into more details later. Do

10 you understand?

11 A. Fully.

12 Q. After August of 1990 and into early 1991, barricades were erected

13 in the Serb villages around Saborsko, including in Plaski, Licka Jesenica

14 and Plitvice. Do you agree or disagree?

15 A. Not around Saborsko. Barricades we're erected in all areas, not

16 around Saborsko, but also in the direction of Ogulin and another place.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the other place.

18 A. And I disagree with you that this was in Saborsko and around it,

19 in the surrounding villages.

20 Plaski is not a village, it's a town. And all other places are

21 villages.

22 MR. WHITING:

23 Q. I will put the question to you. I will rephrase it, then.

24 Barricades in 1990, after August, 1990, were erected in Plaski, in Licka

25 Jesenica and Plitvice. Agree or disagree?

1 A. I can't speak of Plitvice. I know that during that period of

2 time, during a brief period of time, there were barricades which were

3 removed later.

4 Q. Those barricades in Plaski and Licka Jesenica stayed up through

5 1991; correct?

6 A. That's not correct.

7 Q. Well, when do you say they came down?

8 A. The events in Knin are well known. On the 17th of August, 1990.

9 And this --

10 Q. Sir, sir, let me interrupt you, because if you don't listen to my

11 questions and just answer my questions, we're going to be here for a very,

12 very long time, because we have a lot of ground to cover.

13 So, please, when do you say the barricades in Plaski and Licka

14 Jesenica came down? If you could just answer that question.

15 A. It was there only for a brief period of time and it was in 1990.

16 In 1991, there were no longer barricades. It lasted for a mere 15 days or

17 so, in August of 1990.

18 Q. After the barricades came down, they were replaced by police

19 checkpoints; correct?

20 A. I don't understand. What police checkpoints are you referring

21 to? Which villages? Which period of time? Which locations? This is a

22 very general question.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The same villages that you are talking about, sir.

24 The same villages where you say the barricades came down.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday I said

1 accurately --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry. Just answer the question. When did

3 the barricades -- after the barricades came down, did police checkpoints

4 -- were police checkpoints mounted; yes or no? We haven't got much time.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

7 MR. WHITING:

8 Q. Sir, didn't you testify yesterday - and it's at page 37 of the

9 transcript yesterday - that there was -- on July 22nd of 1991, there was a

10 checkpoint at Vojinovac, which is located between Plaski and Josipdol. Do

11 you remember that testimony?

12 A. I remember, and that's true. But you asked me about something

13 quite different. We are now speaking of 1990, and you are skipping over

14 six months in the future and referring to a time when there was a combat

15 between Josipdol and Vojinovac. That's when the unit for special purposes

16 had already been formed. That's what you are referring to. So you

17 basically went forward a year, and it's very difficult for me to follow

18 what you're saying.

19 Q. You're doing just fine. Can you tell me when the police

20 checkpoints were erected around Plaski?

21 A. On the return of the group of people I had taken to Knin for

22 training, we occasionally carried out checks of the vehicles passing

23 through our territory. On the 22nd of July --

24 Q. Sir --

25 A. -- on our side --

1 Q. -- I'm going to interrupt you, because you told us yesterday you

2 took the men for training in May of 1991. So is it your testimony, sir,

3 that from approximately September of 1990 until May of 1991, there were no

4 barricades, no checkpoints, no defensive positions at all around Plaski?

5 Is that your testimony, sir?

6 A. There were some village guards, but nothing was organised --

7 Q. Well, sir, I don't want to --

8 A. -- on my side.

9 Q. -- get caught up here too much in terminology, okay? When I ask

10 about barricades or checkpoints, in my mind that would include village

11 guards. When were the village guards set up? Were they set up after the

12 barricades were taken down in August 1990, August or September of 1990?

13 A. One might say that. They occasionally cropped up. In places

14 where people had hunting weapons, they organised themselves.

15 Q. So you're telling us that this was spontaneous and not commanded

16 in any way; is that your testimony?

17 A. In early 1991, as I said, I was conducting negotiations in the

18 Croatian parliament. Had I been organising such things, they probably

19 wouldn't have allowed me to go there. You must have information about

20 that.

21 Q. Well, sir, you weren't the only person in Plaski at the time, were

22 you? I mean, there were others who could have organised these village

23 guards; isn't that right?

24 A. I said they were self-organised in villages and hamlets. People

25 stood guard, but there were no physical obstacles on the roads.

1 Q. You testified already that Plaski separated itself from the

2 Republic of Croatia and it joined the SAO Krajina in January of 1991;

3 first, as a part of Titova Korenica municipality and then as its own

4 municipality, Plaski. Correct? You agree or disagree?

5 A. You're twisting what I said, yet again. I said that the first

6 referendum for joining the Krajina was held as early as August 1990. In

7 1991, there was a referendum for the separation of the local communes from

8 Bugojno municipality and their accession to the Korenica municipality.

9 That's what I said.

10 Q. So Plaski joined the SAO Krajina in August of 1990; that's your

11 testimony?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. From January of 1991, the SAO Krajina did not recognise the

14 authority of the Croatian Ministry of Interior within the SAO Krajina;

15 agree or disagree?

16 A. I don't know from what date, but I know that around that time they

17 stopped recognising the authority, yes.

18 Q. By April of 1991, the villages of Saborsko, Vukovici and Poljanak

19 were surrounded on both sides by Serb forces; Plaski on one side and

20 Plitvice on the other side. Do you agree or disagree?

21 A. They were surrounded by the Serb population. I don't know what

22 forces you're talking about at that time. Are you referring to some sort

23 of armed forces? What units are you referring to? If you're referring to

24 forces, you might be precise. There were no forces and no units at that

25 time. There were just eight policemen in Plaski. I don't know how many

1 there were in Korenica and Plitvice.

2 Q. Well, let's move ahead in time. Let's say by the summer of 1991,

3 you would agree with me, would you not, that there were Serb forces,

4 meaning police units, TO, and JNA, in both Plaski and in Plitvice, on both

5 sides of these villages of Saborsko, Vukovici and Poljanak.

6 A. That's correct, in the summer, yes.

7 Q. In the summer of 1991, more precisely in August of 1991, the Serb

8 forces began shelling the villages of Saborsko and Poljanak. Do you agree

9 or disagree?

10 A. I can't tell you about Saborsko, but Poljanak could not be shelled

11 from the area I was responsible for, because it's more than 30 kilometres

12 away from Licka Jesenica.

13 Q. And you can tell us that Saborsko was shelled starting in August

14 of 1991; correct?

15 A. I spoke about this yesterday. I said that, from the direction of

16 Borik, farmers going about their business in the fields were targeted and

17 we had to respond to these provocations. When we responded, the

18 provocations stopped. I spoke about this yesterday, sir.

19 Q. So answer is yes, Saborsko was shelled by Serb forces.

20 A. You have to be precise, yet again. What forces and with what? We

21 didn't have shells at the time. Shells or ammunition used in guns,

22 cannons, we didn't have those.

23 Q. Well, what did you target Saborsko with, then?

24 A. I think several mortar mines of 82 millimetres were fired on their

25 positions in the areas of Borik and Sivnik.

1 Q. When this started to occur in August of 1991, civilians in those

2 villages - or we'll just talk about Saborsko since you cannot talk about

3 Poljanak - civilians in Saborsko started to leave the village, and those

4 who remained in the village stayed in the village, did not travel about.

5 Do you agree or disagree?

6 A. I can't know that precisely because I didn't go into Saborsko at

7 that time. But I heard that some women and children had already started

8 moving out at that time.

9 Q. In September, October and November of 1991, men from Saborsko were

10 arrested by Serb forces and Martic's police. Do you agree or disagree?

11 A. You have mentioned three months here. I agree about September. I

12 started speaking about that twice, but His Honour interrupted me. If you

13 want, I will clarify who was arrested, and when.

14 Q. No, that answer is sufficient. Thank you. Civilians, even before

15 November 12th of 1991, civilians were killed in Saborsko in September,

16 October or November of 1991. Do you agree or disagree?

17 A. I don't know anything about that.

18 Q. The men who were arrested from Saborsko were detained and they

19 were beaten. Do you agree or disagree?

20 A. That is a lie launched here by Vlade Vukovic. I saw that in the

21 transcript of the Milosevic trial. It's a blatant lie.

22 Q. Sir, I didn't ask you to comment on another witness's testimony.

23 I just asked you if you agree or disagree. And if you would please listen

24 to my questions and just answer my questions.

25 A. We captured enemy soldiers.

1 Q. Sir, sir, do you agree or disagree?

2 A. I don't agree that they were maltreated.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. They were imprisoned.

5 Q. Thank you. In November of 1991, the villages of Saborsko,

6 Poljanak, and Vukovici were attacked. The remaining civilians who were

7 there were either killed or driven out, and those three villages were

8 destroyed. Do you agree or disagree?

9 A. Yesterday, we spoke about that military operation for two hours

10 here. You have reduced it to two sentences. I cannot agree with the way

11 you describe it now.

12 Q. One of the reasons for the attack on these villages was to join

13 the Serb territory of Plaski with the rest of the SAO Krajina. Do you

14 agree or disagree?

15 A. The reason was to make possible normal communications with the

16 rest of SAO Krajina, to lift the siege of Plaski, the entire municipality,

17 not just the town and, of course, the military facilities of the JNA.

18 Q. During the attacks on Poljanak, Lipovaca, Vukovici and Saborsko,

19 crimes were committed against Croat civilians in those villages. Do you

20 agree or disagree? And if you can only speak about Saborsko, just tell

21 us.

22 A. I ask you again not to put questions to me about Poljanak and

23 Lipovaca. They were on a completely different axis and I know nothing

24 about them. Yesterday, I described all the events in Saborsko and abide

25 by that.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me. It is the prerogative of the Prosecutor

2 to ask you questions about any subject. If you don't know anything about

3 the subject he asks you about, you say you don't know. It's not for you

4 to tell him what questions he may or may not ask, okay? Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.

6 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Now, I will limit the question to Saborsko. Could you just answer

8 the question: Crimes were committed -- during the attack on Saborsko on

9 the 12th of November 1991, crimes were committed against civilians in

10 Saborsko. Do you agree or disagree? Don't think about what you testified

11 about yesterday. Just please answer my question.

12 A. The unit I commanded and I personally committed no crimes. I have

13 not seen those crimes and I cannot talk about them.

14 Q. But you heard about them, didn't you? You know about them, don't

15 you, sir?

16 A. I heard about them and I received reports, after the sanitization

17 of the terrain, about civilians who had been killed, women and elderly

18 men.

19 Q. And these crimes were not isolated events in these villages, but

20 they were systematic and widespread. Do you agree or disagree?

21 A. I disagree. That's your construction.

22 Q. The purpose of these crimes was to ensure that Croats would leave

23 these villages and never return. Do you agree or disagree, sir?

24 A. I disagree.

25 Q. And finally, sir, whatever the reason was for the attack on these

1 villages, there was no justification for these crimes on the civilians.

2 Do you agree or disagree?

3 A. A crime can never be justified.

4 Q. Let's talk about your position now. You testified that, in May of

5 1991, you went with a group of men to Golubic for training and that you

6 returned to Plaski. Those men who were trained in Golubic formed a

7 special purpose unit; correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. You were in charge of the special purpose unit.

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. The special purpose unit was within the Ministry of the Interior;

12 correct?

13 A. If you're referring to the Ministry of the Interior of the SAO

14 Krajina, then, yes, one might say that. But you have to put the question

15 more clearly.

16 Q. Yes. Thank you for that clarification. When you say "one might

17 say that," the answer is, yes, it was within the Ministry of the Interior

18 of the SAO Krajina; right?

19 A. That's correct, yes.

20 Q. Sir, were you subordinated to Dusan Latas or were you directly

21 subordinated to Milan Martic, as head of the special purpose unit?

22 A. Dusan Latas was not my superior, but we cooperated well. He had

23 other tasks. I considered Mr. Martic to be my commander.

24 Q. And that was true of all the special purpose units, wasn't it?

25 They were directly subordinated to Mr. Martic; correct?

1 A. I can't speak about other units. I can only speak about the one I

2 commanded.

3 Q. And you wore the patch of the SAO Krajina police; correct?

4 A. Either on my left or my right sleeve, I don't remember which,

5 there was a semi-circular patch with the words "Milicija Krajina," Krajina

6 police.

7 MR. WHITING: Can we see Exhibit 266, please.

8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Whiting, while we're waiting, could I ask a

9 question in the interim.

10 Why did you consider Mr. Martic your commander?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, he was the Minister of

12 the Interior of the SAO Krajina. That's how we referred to him. I don't

13 know whether there were any documents to that effect, but we considered

14 him to be the Minister of the Interior.

15 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And therefore?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He was the commander. We were

17 subordinate to him.

18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Who would that "we" include? When you say "we,"

19 to whom are you referring, other than you, yourself, in your position?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm referring to me personally and

21 the unit I commanded, which had some two platoons, about 40 men.

22 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

23 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. And just --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just -- just one question on this point. Did

25 you receive your instructions directly from Mr. Martic for whatever?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of the geographical

2 distance, we rarely communicated. For the most part, I had to rely on

3 myself and make decisions myself. These decisions pertained only to the

4 narrow area I was in charge of. My contacts with him happened in Knin,

5 and that was only on one or two occasions.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, listen to my question. Whether it was once,

7 twice, or a million times, did you receive your instructions directly from

8 Mr. Martic; yes or no?

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you.

12 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Now we see Exhibit 266 on the screen. Is that the patch that you

14 wore when you were the commander of the special purpose unit after May of

15 1991?

16 A. Yes, that's the patch.

17 Q. Thank you. You testified yesterday that the SAO Krajina police -

18 and I understood that to be the police under the command of Dusan Latas -

19 had the job of policing, and that the duty of the special purpose unit was

20 to "materialise the will of the people" and to protect Plaski.

21 So is it fair to say that the special purpose unit had essentially

22 a military function, correct, as opposed to a traditional policing

23 function?

24 A. One can hardly say that a unit consisting of 40 men can have some

25 sort of serious military function.

1 Q. Sir, I didn't ask you whether it was serious or not. I just asked

2 you what its function was. Its function was, it was a military function

3 as opposed to traditional policing, which was left to the regular police;

4 correct?

5 A. No. It was special-purpose policing: Preventing the incursion of

6 terrorist groups, controlling roads, securing important facilities such as

7 waterworks, and so on.

8 Q. Until when were you the commander of the special purpose unit?

9 A. Until the time the Territorial Defence brigade was established in

10 Plaski. I think it was the 1st of September. I'm not sure about the

11 date, but I'm sure it was in September.

12 Q. Was it, then, Rade Milanovic who became the commander of the

13 special purpose unit of the police?

14 A. Some of the men from that unit did not agree to become part of the

15 Territorial Defence brigade, and they did not meet the conditions to enter

16 the police force, so he commanded a group on his own, which never had more

17 than 15 to 20 men. But in the end they became subsumed under other units.

18 Q. Well, let's take this one step at a time. When he commanded this

19 group of men, it was still the special purpose unit that you had commanded

20 starting in May of 1991; correct?

21 A. No, it was not that unit. It was a group of men who were

22 renegades, who would not obey me personally. They felt they were better

23 than the territorials. It was a group of adventurers, led by another

24 adventurer, Rade Milanovic.

25 Q. Did Rade Milanovic have a role in the attack on Saborsko on the

1 12th of November, 1991?

2 A. Rade Milanovic never played any role in any offensive or defensive

3 action. All he did was strut around in uniform. I think he wasn't even

4 in Plaski when the attack on Saborsko occurred.

5 Q. Let's go back to September of 1991. The special purpose unit of

6 the SAO Krajina police continued to exist in September, October, November

7 of 1991; right?

8 A. No, I don't agree with that.

9 Q. Well, let's look at Exhibit 607. This is a handwritten order

10 dated the 10th of November, 1991, from Bogdan Grba, and he was your

11 superior in the TO; correct?

12 A. Only in the Saborsko operation. At that time I was already

13 president of the municipality. I had no military duties.

14 Q. Let's look at page 2 of the document, and it's also page 2 in the

15 English. I just have to orient -- on the English it's the top half, and

16 on the B/C/S it's at the bottom.

17 Do you see where it says, "Special Purposes Unit 1 Company Police

18 and Reserve Police, the unit is commanded by Nikola Medakovic." Now,

19 that's a reference to special purpose unit of the SAO Krajina police;

20 correct?

21 A. Mr. Grba made a mistake here. He mentions a unit which did not

22 exist. The other two parts are in correspondence, the actual --

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, do you see the text?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I do.

25 MR. WHITING:

1 Q. And it's your testimony that Mr. Grba, in November of 1991,

2 referred to a unit that, according to your testimony, did not exist and

3 had not existed since September of 1991. Is that your testimony, sir?

4 A. Yes. That former unit, apart from the renegade part with Rade

5 Milanovic, entered the composition of the regular and reserve police

6 force.

7 Q. Isn't it, in fact, the case, sir, that you, in your testimony, are

8 trying to eliminate the existence of the special purpose unit in November

9 of 1991? Isn't that, in fact, what's happening here?

10 A. I'm giving first-hand evidence, sir, because I established that

11 unit and disbanded it, so I know about the time of its existence. People

12 used to refer to this unit as Martic's men, and this term was in use until

13 1995. Whoever saw that unit in 1991 referred to them as Martic's men, and

14 maybe they were part of another unit at the time. That's how it was.

15 That's the truth.

16 Q. Well, let's look at Exhibit 605, then, please. This is -- 605 is

17 a report written by Dusan Latas, the commander of the regular police in

18 Plaski on the 23rd of November, 1991. And I draw your attention - it's on

19 page 1 - to the bottom half of the page. There is a paragraph that

20 begins, "On the 8th --" keep going down, please, on the B/C/S.

21 "On the 8th of November --"

22 MR. WHITING: Do Your Honours have the English? Okay.

23 Q. There's a paragraph which begins:

24 "On the 8th of November, 1991, our unit was given the task to

25 retake the Glibodol cross."

1 And then the next paragraph, it says:

2 "For this task, we received reinforcements of a special purpose

3 unit from Plaski, comprising about 15 men, while the Plaski DB section

4 acted directly with our unit."

5 You're not saying that Dusan Latas also made the same mistake, are

6 you? In fact, there was a special purpose unit in Plaski in the police in

7 November of 1991; correct?

8 A. Could you show me the entire document so that I can read it and

9 see what it's about? Based on this segment alone, I can't draw proper

10 conclusions. You pull things out of the context and I only see a portion

11 of the document. Who was this sent to? By whom? When?

12 Q. Well, you can look at the top. We've cut off the very top of the

13 document now. There we go. It's a report from the Plaski police station

14 on the 23rd of November, 1991, and it's about events that had occurred

15 during the previous reporting period. And there's a reference -- he makes

16 a reference to being reinforced by the special purpose unit from Plaski,

17 and that is the special purpose unit of the SAO Krajina police. Correct,

18 sir?

19 A. Just scroll down, please, so that I can see the entire text. This

20 is an event that I, described yesterday, the retaking of Glibodolski

21 Kriz. I took part in it, too, not as a unit commander but as a

22 volunteer. And there were also people from ...

23 Q. Sir, please.

24 A. The unit didn't exist. Dusan Latas made a mistake.

25 Q. So now your testimony is that not only did Bogdan Grba, your

1 superior in the attack on Saborsko, but also Dusan Latas, the commander of

2 the regular police in Plaski, they both were mistaken when they thought

3 that there was a special purpose unit of the SAO Krajina police in

4 November of 1991. Is that really your testimony, sir?

5 A. This is my testimony. Nobody can prove that this unit existed.

6 Do you have a list? Do you know who was in command of the unit, where

7 they were billeted? It only existed in stories circulated by people. I

8 would like for somebody to show me a document proving where it was

9 headquartered, who was its commander, who were the members. It says here

10 that it was 15 men strong. That's precisely what I said, that there was a

11 group that refused to integrate into the TO system, and then they waged a

12 war on their own.

13 Q. Okay. So now -- I'm sorry. So now your testimony is that this

14 group that's referred to in this paragraph of this document by Dusan

15 Latas, that he is saying that he was reinforced in that operation by a

16 renegade group that was not under anybody's command? Is that your

17 testimony?

18 A. It's too strong a word, "renegade group." These people were

19 volunteers. They were individual players, if I can call them that. They

20 wandered from one unit to the next one. We didn't still have a firm unit

21 structure at the time.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You referred to them as "renegades" when you were

23 asked by the Defence counsel just a few minutes ago, sir. You used

24 exactly the same term. Do you remember?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Did I use the term "renegade"?

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, that's what was translated to us in English,

2 exactly that term, "renegade."

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember using that term. I

4 said that they --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I remember. I remember. I'm telling you.

6 MR. WHITING: That's at page --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that case I will accept what

8 you're saying.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: What page?

10 MR. WHITING: It's at page 24.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Look at page 24 on your screen, sir, of today's

12 transcript.

13 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm not sure he has the ability to do

14 that.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, okay. He has the screen that's not

16 controllable.

17 MR. WHITING: I can read it, if you'd like, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please read it, Mr. Whiting.

19 MR. WHITING:

20 Q. This was in response to a question, actually, from me. The

21 question was:

22 "Q. And it's your testimony that Mr. Grba, in November of 1991,

23 referred to a unit that, according to your testimony, did not exist and

24 had not existed since September of 1991. Is that your testimony, sir?"

25 And your answer was:

1 "A. Yes. That former unit, apart from the renegade part with

2 Rade Milanovic, entered the composition of the regular and reserve police

3 force."

4 A. I accept that. Your Honours, you said that I said this to Defence

5 counsel. That's what confused me. You can check that in the transcript.

6 This is the answer I gave to the Prosecutor, and this is what confused

7 me. But, yes, this is correct.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then you accept that you used the word "renegade"

9 yourself, and that's how you referred to them. Do you accept that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then don't say the Prosecutor is using too harsh a

12 word when he describes them as renegades, because he's taking it out of --

13 directly out of your mouth. Is that correct?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Serbian language, that word

15 has a much stronger meaning. It has multiple meanings. This is why I

16 expressed an objection.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't tell me. You used it yourself, and whatever

18 multiple meanings it has in Serbian, you implied all of those meanings

19 when you used it. So when he uses it, he's perfectly entitled to because

20 he is taking it out of your mouth, irrespective of what it means. Is that

21 correct?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I accept this.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

24 You may proceed, Mr. Prosecutor.

25 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Could I just ask a question or two under this

1 head.

2 Now, this renegade unit, you are saying that it did not exist

3 officially, when you say it did not exist? Because there would, on the

4 face of it, be some discrepancy. You're saying at once that it did not

5 exist and then you are also describing it as a renegade unit, whatever

6 that term implies in your mind or imports in your mind.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will try to explain. Officially

8 that unit was disbanded and it became part of TO units, part of the unit,

9 that is, the unit which, prior to being disbanded, was 40 men strong.

10 Some of them became TO brigade members and some of them joined the regular

11 police. And then there were still some people who refused to accept the

12 new command and the transfer; I called them renegades. However, their

13 number never exceeded ten. These were people who went into hiding at the

14 time. They disobeyed. They didn't want to respond to the mobilisation

15 call and join the TO, yet they didn't meet the requirements to become

16 regular police members, because some had prior convictions, some were

17 alcoholics, and as such they could not become members of police force.

18 Weapons were available to everyone during war.

19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: So the "official powers" that be, in inverted

20 commas, would have been aware of their existence, then, as a unit and as a

21 group, functioning?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're referring to official

23 powers, I was the president of the municipality at the time. I knew that

24 they were in hiding and that they acted on their own. They didn't have

25 headquarters; they didn't have a command; they were not part of the

1 system. And their numbers decreased on a daily basis.

2 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: When you say they "acted," what do you mean?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That means that they were walking in

4 town in uniforms and under arms, that is to say, they were not where they

5 were supposed to be on defence lines.

6 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: What steps, if any, did you take to bring this

7 situation to an end, to curtail and stop it, knowing that the function was

8 outside of the regular system, according to you, and was not lawful?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We finally dealt with such groups,

10 or rather that group, when the military police was established, when our

11 TO brigade became a JNA brigade. That was in late November. Prior to

12 that, we attempted to talk to them individually. I personally talked to

13 them several times. And at that time they critisised me for betraying

14 that unit. It is very difficult to deal with such people without some

15 enforcement mechanism.

16 I had many duties. I had to deal with defence issues, and I

17 didn't have all the time in the world to deal with these five or six men.

18 And they did not represent such a huge danger.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why is the number of these people changing so

20 rapidly? You know, there were 15, then there were not more than 10, then

21 there were five or six. What is actually happening?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's precisely what was happening.

23 Your Honour, whoever was dissatisfied with the assignment he received

24 within the TO unit would go into hiding, become a member of that unit,

25 declare himself to be a special -- specialist soldier, and so on. And

1 their main occupation was to loot Serbian houses. No Croatian houses or

2 households existed there at the time. I had a personal conflict with

3 several of them, and most of them got killed in events that had nothing to

4 do with the war.

5 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you, Witness.

6 Mr. Whiting at this stage I ask you to proceed, please.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of them -- Your Honour, by your

8 leave. One of them even went back to the Croatian side. His name was

9 Marinko Mudric. He went to Josipdol wearing a uniform. He crossed to the

10 Croatian side and then he stepped on a trip-wire mine. He was one of the

11 renegades.

12 MR. WHITING: I will have more questions about this group, which

13 we have now agreed is going to be called the renegades, but I think it is

14 a convenient time for a break.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting. We

16 will take a break and come back at quarter to 11.00.

17 Court adjourned.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.

21 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Sir, I just have a few more questions about these men that we've

23 described as renegades. Just to be clear, these men were never part of

24 the special purpose unit of the SAO Krajina police that you commanded,

25 were they?

1 A. The unit itself comprised people who had gone through training.

2 However, we had losses and the unit had to be reinforced. Mostly those

3 were people who had come from other parts of Croatia. Some were from

4 Ogulin; some were from Josipdol. We had accommodation in the school

5 building, and they had no housing. So we took in some ten people, without

6 conducting extensive background checks. We had no resources to do that.

7 And these are precisely the people that caused the most trouble.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question was: They were never part of the

9 special purpose unit, were they?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were part of my unit.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

12 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. And these are the men that you described as having had prior

14 convictions and some of them were alcoholics and they could not become

15 members of the police force. Are these the same men that were part of

16 your special purpose unit?

17 A. Yes, that's correct, for a brief period of time.

18 Q. For how long --

19 A. This was after the first combat from the 22nd of July to a

20 month -- a month and a half at the most. I didn't have records for these

21 people, and until I saw them in action, I couldn't know much about them.

22 And the unit was established on a voluntary basis. Those who had gone to

23 training with me and who were from Plaski were the people that I knew

24 well.

25 Q. These ten men who had prior convictions and were alcoholics, did

1 they go to Golubic for training?

2 A. No, that's precisely what I said when I started answering your

3 first question. The unit had losses. We had casualties, people who were

4 wounded or killed, so we had to bring in new men. And the reinforcement

5 was on a voluntary basis, and I explained to you what was the reason for

6 people coming from other parts of Croatia.

7 Q. Sir, sir --

8 A. And this is -- there was a positive opinion about this unit.

9 Q. Sir, when did you have losses? When did you have men killed from

10 your unit? When was that?

11 A. On the 22nd of July, Dane Bogdanovic was killed and he was my

12 deputy an commander of the first platoon. Bogdan Cetica was wounded.

13 Following that, Djuro Pesic was wounded, and then some other people fell

14 casualty to mines. Some people got sick. Some people just couldn't stand

15 the pressure. So those were the ten vacancies, so to speak, that were

16 open.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The 22nd of July. Which year, sir?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1991. I've already mentioned that

19 date.

20 MR. WHITING:

21 Q. And when did you find out that these ten men were alcoholics or

22 had criminal convictions?

23 A. On the days when they were not on duty, when they had a day off.

24 For example, every ten days they would be given one or two days off, and I

25 could see that they would get drunk during those days, that they would get

1 into conflict with local residents, which was against the rules. They had

2 a tendency to steal; ammunition went missing, and things like that.

3 Q. And what did you do about that?

4 A. I disarmed some of them temporarily. I assigned them to do some

5 manual jobs, cleaning and things like that. However, these punishments

6 were of a symbolic nature. I couldn't really discipline them harshly

7 because I needed them.

8 Q. So you didn't expel them from the special purpose unit. That's

9 how I understand your testimony; right?

10 A. It was better for them to be under my control than let them run

11 around freely, because they presented a risk mostly to the property, the

12 property of Serbs, my neighbours.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please answer the question directly.

14 MR. WHITING:

15 Q. You didn't expel them from the special purpose unit, did you, sir?

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just ask one question.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. You were asked, when you discovered that

20 they had criminal convictions and alcoholics, you told us how you

21 discovered that they were alcoholics. How did you discover that, and

22 when, that they had criminal convictions? You told us about them stealing

23 on a day off. That doesn't tell you that they had criminal convictions.

24 That tells you that they were stealing at that time. When did you

25 discover that they had criminal convictions?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When talking to my colleagues. I

2 didn't have contact with all of the soldiers, with all of the members of

3 my unit. But these people boasted, they bragged about it. They thought

4 that it gave them an edge, that they had been in prison. There were not

5 many such cases. But once I learned of them, I had these people under

6 firm control. I didn't entrust any important assignments to them.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question was: When did you discover that they

8 had criminal convictions? An attempt at answering that question was, when

9 you spoke to your colleagues. I don't know when you spoke to your

10 colleagues. Can you answer the question clearly and directly? When did

11 you discover that they had criminal convictions?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In August. This mostly took place

13 in August of 1991.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. But certainly by September of 1991, these renegades were not

18 contained in any unit, correct, according to your testimony?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. And they were not -- they did not -- they were not assigned tasks

21 in the military operations in and around Licka Jesenica and Saborsko in

22 November of 1991, were they?

23 A. They never received any orders from me following that.

24 Q. And they didn't receive any orders from anybody, did they? There

25 was nobody in the JNA or the TO or the police who assigned that group of

1 renegades duties in the military operations in November of 1991, did they?

2 A. Now you're making me speculate. I know nothing about that.

3 Q. So you think it's possible that, given everything you know and

4 your experience at the time and what you observed, you think it's possible

5 that either the JNA or the TO assigned duties in the military operation in

6 Saborsko to that renegade group?

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Previously the witness

10 said, "You're making me speculate. I know nothing about that." Now the

11 follow-up question puts the witness under pressure to say something that

12 he doesn't know anything about. I think that the Prosecutor has a right

13 to insist on an argument, but I don't see why he's pursuing this argument

14 further.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I don't think there is an argument here, Mr.

16 Milovancevic. It's just a question. The witness said he would be

17 speculating if he said that nobody gave them instructions. The flip side

18 of that is, is he, therefore, saying it's possible that somebody might

19 have given him instructions that he doesn't know anything about. He's

20 asking about the possibility, not knowledge. That objection is overruled.

21 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Witness, can you please answer the question.

23 A. Could you please repeat the question? Which particular portion?

24 I lost my concentration.

25 Q. The question is: So you think it's possible, given everything you

1 know and your experience at the time in 1991 and what you observed, you

2 think it's possible that either the JNA or the TO assigned duties in

3 military operations in Saborsko to that renegade group in November of

4 1991?

5 A. I think it could hardly be the case when speaking of the JNA, and

6 even less of a possibility in the TO. Only those who didn't really know

7 these people would have involved them in something. But, once again, I'm

8 just speculating about this. I don't know of any instances where somebody

9 issued an order for them to do something.

10 Q. I think your answer is clear. And certainly Dusan Latas was aware

11 of the people in this group; right?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Let's go back, if we could, to how we started in on this topic,

14 and that's Exhibit 605. If we could have that back on the monitor.

15 And if we could look at the bottom half of the document, the last

16 big paragraph. You see that paragraph that begins,"On 8 November,

17 1991 ..." Again, this is written by Dusan Latas, and in the second

18 sentence, he says:

19 "For this task, we received reinforcements of a special purpose

20 unit from Plaski, comprising about 15 men ..."

21 Now, that is not a reference to these men that we've been

22 describing as the renegades, is it?

23 A. You have to ask Dusan Latas that.

24 Q. Well, sir, given your knowledge of the time and given your

25 knowledge of Dusan Latas and what he knew, you wouldn't expect him to

1 write about those renegades in that way, would you? Or to accept to be

2 reinforced in any way by those renegades, would you?

3 A. I have already said that I participated in a military operation

4 and that not everything was the way it's written down here. Maybe Dusan

5 Latas was submitting this to a supervisor, hoping to gain points or to

6 achieve something. I'm a realistic person. I can speak only of what I

7 saw.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you are now speculating, sir, aren't you?

9 You're speculating on the -- sssh. Listen to me. You are speculating on

10 Dusan Latas's motives, aren't you?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I am guessing. I am

12 speculating because I don't know about this report.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't speculate. Give us facts.

14 MR. WHITING:

15 Q. You know Dusan Latas, sir.

16 A. I know him very well.

17 Q. And you know that he would not refer to the renegades in this

18 report in that fashion. He's not talking about the renegades there, is

19 he?

20 A. I really don't know why you insist on my answering questions I

21 know nothing about. I don't know anything about Dusan's motives in

22 writing this.

23 Q. Sir, one thing, though, you did tell us --

24 A. If you want, I'll tell you what really happened that day, if you

25 want to hear facts.

1 Q. Sir, sir, sir --

2 A. Don't try to make me say something about things I never wrote down

3 or signed.

4 Q. Sir, I'm just trying to find out what you know. I will ask the

5 questions, and if you could just concentrate on answering the questions,

6 please.

7 Now, something you told us before is that the renegade -- the

8 renegades did not participate in the military action on Saborsko on the

9 12th of November, 1991; correct?

10 A. I said that they did not participate in it under my command. Over

11 300 men on our side participated in it.

12 Q. Well, in fact, there were more than 700 men on your side, weren't

13 there?

14 A. I don't agree with that number.

15 Q. Sir, on the 12th of November, 1991, Dusan Latas was part of your

16 group during the attack on Saborsko; correct?

17 A. That's correct, yes.

18 Q. Okay. Well, why don't we look at the next page of this document,

19 then, when he talks about the attack on Saborsko.

20 It's on page 2 of the B/C/S and it's on page 2 of the English, and

21 it's the bottom of the B/C/S. It says there, that paragraph where it

22 says, "On 12 November 1991, following the air attack ..." And then the

23 next sentence says, "There it waited for the artillery fire." And then

24 the next sentence is the one I'm interested in. "The police unit and the

25 special unit made up the right flank of our attack."

1 Do you see that, sir, that sentence? "The police unit and the

2 special unit made up the right flank of our attack." Now, the special

3 unit there is not the renegades because you've told us that the renegades

4 were not part of your group on that day. Would you agree with that?

5 A. I agree with you, but only --

6 Q. Sir, sir --

7 A. -- only in as much as you say that they were not part of that

8 group.

9 Q. Well, he says here, "This police unit and the special unit made up

10 the right flank of our attack." Mr. Latas, when he refers to the special

11 unit, could not be talking about the renegades because you've told us that

12 the renegades were not part of your group. Agree?

13 A. That's correct, yes.

14 Q. And, in fact, the reference there to the special unit is to the

15 special unit -- the special purpose unit of the SAO Krajina police, which

16 still existed on that day and participated in the action on Saborsko;

17 correct?

18 A. That's your construction, and it's not the only incorrect thing in

19 this text signed by Dusan Latas. Could I be allowed to read all of it?

20 Q. Sir, sir --

21 A. -- because I see things now that are not correct in the next part

22 of the text. You cannot extract things out of context.

23 Q. Sir, the answer to your question is no. And please just answer my

24 questions and we can move on. Now you have answered my question. I think

25 I'm done with this document for the moment. Yes, I want to ask you some

1 questions -- I'm done with this document for the moment.

2 I want to ask you some questions about the training at Golubic.

3 Well, let me ask you one last question, just to make it absolutely clear.

4 It's still your position that, despite these references in these documents

5 from November of 1991 to the special unit, that the special purpose unit

6 of the SAO Krajina police did not exist. That's still your testimony;

7 right? Just so we're clear.

8 A. I assert that, and I've already spoken about that more than once.

9 Q. Okay. Thank you.

10 A. Let me look at this text. More than half of it is incorrect. I

11 don't know why it's written the way it is. There's some kind of fighting

12 with knives and hand-grenades mentioned here, and that we inflicted huge

13 losses on the MUP.

14 Q. Sir, we're going to have an opportunity to talk about that.

15 A. It wasn't an action film, sir.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, sir, listen, sir. Can you please subject

17 yourself to some discipline in court. When you are asked to keep quiet,

18 please stop, because you are now telling you us stories which are no

19 answers to any questions put to you.

20 MR. WHITING:

21 Q. We will come back to that exact section of the report, sir. We

22 will come back to it later in your testimony, I promise you. I have some

23 questions about that.

24 Now, let's talk about the training at Golubic. If we could look

25 at Exhibit 622, please. These are minutes of a meeting dated the 14th of

1 June, 1991. Do you see, going down, there is a reference -- number 15,

2 you see there is a reference to Plaski and there's the number "18" after

3 that. Do you see that on the document, sir?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And just in case it's not clear from what you've been able to see,

6 this is minutes of a meeting pertaining to Golubic. Were you able to see

7 that at the top of the document? Look particularly at -- go to number 1.

8 It's "Agreement on Further Work in Golubic."

9 Now, if we could look at the second page of the document, please.

10 Do you see there, it says --

11 MR. WHITING: Do Your Honours have the second page in English?

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mm-hm.

13 MR. WHITING: Okay. My screen is not working right.

14 Q. Do you see there -- oh, here we go. If I could just have a

15 moment. Where it says "Plaski," and then it says, "the construction of

16 defensive positions, the blocking of a town, operating with rifle grenade,

17 ambush," those are some of the things that were contained in the training

18 at Golubic for the people from Plaski; correct? Those are some of things

19 you were trained in; right?

20 A. The way you read it out, it's a little different from what I see

21 written down. It says here, "Plaski, obstructing the road, blockading the

22 town, work with a shoulder-held rocket-launcher, ambush."

23 Q. Well, we have to work with translations here and sometimes they

24 can be a little different. But the way you have read it in your language,

25 those were topics that were covered in the training at Golubic; correct,

1 sir?

2 A. That would take only a day or two, those four things.

3 Q. So the answer is yes, those were topics covered at the training at

4 Golubic.

5 A. Yes, one of the topics.

6 Q. Okay. This will really go much faster if you really just listen

7 to the question and just answer my question, okay? Then I won't have to

8 repeat it several times.

9 MR. WHITING: I'm done with that document. Thank you.

10 Q. Sir, on the 1st of February, 1992, charges were brought against

11 you in the Republic of Croatia as a result of your role in the attack on

12 Saborsko; correct?

13 A. I read that in the Croatian press.

14 Q. Well, if we could look, please, at document 0151-0788 to 0788A.

15 Do you see that document, sir? If we could scroll down just so we can see

16 the name on it. That's you, isn't it, sir?

17 A. Yes. There's a letter missing in my mother's maiden name.

18 Everything else corresponds. Yes.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] -- for purposes of

22 clarification - I don't know whether this should be seen as an objection -

23 but the Prosecutor said, "An indictment was brought against you for the

24 attack on Saborsko." In the legal system that existed in Yugoslavia and

25 Croatia at the time, a criminal report is the initial action initiating an

1 investigation, and then it is only at the end of an investigation that an

2 indictment is possibly brought.

3 The reason I'm saying this is that the witness's answer was yes,

4 but what we see here is not an indictment, it's a criminal report. This

5 is a police document. It's characteristic of the legal system of

6 Yugoslavia, and I think it's important for our understanding of the

7 situation.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure why you say all that you have

9 said, Mr. Milovancevic, but we take note of it. Thank you very much. You

10 said you're not objecting.

11 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

12 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. If we could just look at the second page.

14 A. Mr. Prosecutor, there's another thing here that's not correct in

15 the document itself, if you can bring it back. In the middle of the page

16 where it says, "Did his military service," it says, "No," but I did do my

17 military service in 1985 and 1986.

18 Q. But this document does refer to you; correct? Despite those

19 errors that you've pointed out, this is a reference to you; correct?

20 A. Well, it says something about whoever compiled this criminal

21 report.

22 Q. Sir, really, if you could just listen to my question and just

23 answer my question. This document is about you. Right?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Thank you. If we could go -- on the second page, in the first

1 paragraph, it states -- well, at the beginning, it says, "There are

2 grounds to suspect," and it goes on, and then it identifies you as an

3 organiser, that you led and directed, what it says are, "Chetnik terrorist

4 units in the attack on Saborsko during which civilians were killed,

5 civilian houses torched, property was looted on a grand scale."

6 And if we could scroll down, it says -- it says about halfway down

7 the page, on the English, it says:

8 "In order to commit war crimes against ethnic Croatian civilians

9 in Saborsko, Medakovic, assisted by the occupying army, collected weapons,

10 formed the so-called Martic's police with whom he conducted military

11 training in Knin, and, in collusion with Milan Martic, formed the

12 so-called Territorial Defence Staff."

13 Do you see that, sir?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And this is, again, in reference -- these are in reference to you;

16 correct?

17 A. Yes, but that's not correct.

18 Q. And you were aware that -- you said you learned by the Croatian

19 press that this proceeding or this report had been issued; correct? You

20 knew that in 1992.

21 A. Yes. I received some excerpts from their newspapers.

22 Q. And you are aware, are you not, that in 1995, in August of -- on

23 the 29th of August, 1995, and the 6th of November, 1995, criminal

24 proceedings were held against you in Karlovac related to these

25 allegations. Did you learn that, sir?

1 A. I've heard this for the first time now from you.

2 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could this document be admitted into

3 evidence, please.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit 961.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. I want to move to events in 1990 and I want to cover these very

10 briefly, sir.

11 You testified about symbols on the Croatian side. It's true,

12 isn't it, sir, that the chequer-board symbol that you referred to is an

13 historic Croatian symbol that dates back hundreds of years. You agree

14 with that; right, sir?

15 A. I'm not an expert in heraldry, but I can say that several members

16 of my family were thrown alive into a pit, my maternal grandfather. I

17 have a different opinion of the chequer-board than you have.

18 Q. Sir, just tell me, do you know or do you not know that the

19 chequer-board symbol is an historic Croatian symbol that went back

20 hundreds of years? Do you know that or do you not know that?

21 A. I know that from 1941 to 1945 it was the symbol of the independent

22 state of Croatia, but I have not studied Croatian history.

23 Q. And you have not answered my question. This is the third time,

24 and this will literally triple the amount of time that cross-examination

25 will take, if this happens with every question. Can you answer my

1 question, please? Did you know or did you not know that that symbol, the

2 chequer-board symbol, is an historic Croatian symbol that went back

3 hundreds of years?

4 A. You're making me enter into a discussion about the history of the

5 Croatian people. My opinion differs from yours. I cannot agree with what

6 you say.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, you are not being asked about any opinion,

8 you are being asked about knowledge. Do you know or don't you know? And

9 if you don't know, the simple answer is, "I don't know." You are not

10 being asked to go into any discussion of history here. If you don't know,

11 just say, "I don't know." If you know, tell us you know. It's as simple

12 as all of that. You either know or you don't know.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that it's the way you

14 say it is, Mr. Prosecutor.

15 MR. WHITING:

16 Q. Does that mean, sir, that you believed, you thought, that that

17 symbol was invented by the Ustasha regime in 1941? Is that what you

18 thought?

19 A. I didn't think they invented it. I just know they used it, just

20 as the Germans use the Swastika.

21 Q. You know, sir, that official proclamations from the Croatian side

22 and from the HDZ and in the Croatian constitution of December 1990 all

23 pledged to protect the rights of Serbs in Croatia. You know that, don't

24 you, sir?

25 A. Jovan Jovanovic Zmaj wrote a line of poetry about that, to the

1 effect that bad people say nice things but do bad things.

2 Q. Am I to infer from that answer that, yes, you know that the --

3 that official statements of the HDZ in 1990 and the Croatian constitution

4 of 1990 pledged to protect the rights of Serbs in Croatia?

5 A. No, because the Serbs had been a constituent nation in the

6 Socialist Republic of Croatia; that was something that was enacted at the

7 second session of Zavno. When the HDZ arrived, the Serbs were no longer a

8 constituent nation. I don't see, if you deny a nation the right to be a

9 nation and reduce them to the status of an ethnic minority, how you can

10 then say you are protecting their rights. That's something only you can

11 say, Mr. Prosecutor.

12 Q. Well, sir, did you ever take the time to read the Croatian

13 constitution of December 1990?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. So, sir -- sir, you have answered my question. Yes, you did. So

16 when you read it, did you see -- do you remember seeing in the Croatian

17 constitution that the rights of Serbs were guaranteed? Do you remember

18 seeing that in the constitution?

19 A. I think that rights are guaranteed to the Serbs and other ethnic

20 minorities, and then --

21 Q. Thank you, sir.

22 A. -- other minorities are listed who are not very numerous,

23 numbering only about 10.000 people. So how can the Serbs be put on an

24 equal footing with them?

25 Q. So the answer to my question is yes, the Croatian constitution of

1 1990 guaranteed the rights for Serbs.

2 A. My answer is no, not the way you put it. You keep putting things

3 in my mouth that I didn't say.

4 Q. Well, you said -- I'm just repeating what you said. "I think that

5 rights are guaranteed to the Serbs." Then you went on to talk about other

6 ethnic minorities. I just want to isolate that part of your answer. So I

7 am only repeating what you said, sir, not putting words in your mouth.

8 The Croatian constitution of December 1990 guaranteed rights for

9 Serbs; right?

10 A. It was promulgated by parliament in which there was only one

11 ethnic group, without consulting the other ethnic groups, without

12 consulting the Serbs.

13 Q. Sir, sir --

14 A. If you're asking me whether I read it, I did.

15 Q. And you have not answered my question. The question is: When

16 you read it, did you see that the rights for Serbs are guaranteed

17 explicitly in that constitution; yes or no?

18 A. I can't say anything about that. I'm not expert enough in

19 constitutional law to engage in a discussion with you. I felt threatened

20 in such a Croatian state.

21 Q. So are you refusing to answer the question, sir? I'm not asking

22 about expertise in constitutional law. I am only asking -- you told us

23 that you read the constitution and I'm only asking you what you read.

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. This

25 is pressure on the witness to say something about a highly expert

1 constitutional and political issue. The witness has already given very

2 detailed answers. I think that insisting on this further is simply a play

3 on words in which the Prosecutor is trying to get a reply which he will

4 find satisfactory. This is not a subject matter to which a simple "yes"

5 or "no" answer can be given.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, the witness is being asked about

7 what he read in the constitution, which is a very simple and

8 straightforward question. Your witness just is evading answering

9 questions. From the time you were leading him, I've been saying to him,

10 "Listen to the question and answer the question directly." Your

11 objection is overruled, Mr. Milovancevic.

12 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Do I need to repeat the question, sir?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recall, when you read the Croatian constitution of December

16 1990, that it explicitly guaranteed all rights for Serbs? The same rights

17 as Croatian people. Do you remember reading that in there; yes or no?

18 A. No, it was not guaranteed explicitly. There are no institutions

19 that would deal with the protection of Serbs, and Serbs were degraded from

20 the status of a constitutional nation to an ethnic minority. So this is

21 how I read the constitution. Perhaps I misinterpreted it, in which case I

22 apologise to the Trial Chamber for my ignorance. But I'm not an expert in

23 constitutional law.

24 Q. So, sir, just to be clear, you're not now -- you didn't tell us

25 what you read in the constitution, you told us how you interpreted it;

1 right?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are inviting us to assume that you have

3 constitutional expertise, which you are not being asked about. You are

4 just being asked about what you read. And your counsel is objecting that

5 you are being asked difficult questions. You are leading us into those

6 difficult areas. You are not answering what is being put to you. What is

7 being put to you is what you read, not what you understand of the

8 constitution, not what you understand of what you read, but just what you

9 read, what is written in the constitution. You are literate, are you

10 not? You are able to read and write, are you not?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Just answer the question that is put to

13 you. What you read -- and don't give us a thesis on your constitutional

14 understanding. There are as many understandings of that constitution as

15 there may be people interpreting it. That is not what you are being

16 asked. You are being asked what you read. Now stick to the question and

17 answer it directly.

18 MR. WHITING:

19 Q. Sir, I will put the question to you one more time. Do you

20 remember reading that the Croatian constitution of December 1990

21 explicitly guarantees rights for Serbs? Do you remember that? That's

22 what it says.

23 A. I don't understand the "explicit" bit of your question. I don't

24 understand the word "explicitly".

25 Q. I will explain what I mean by that. What I mean is, it says -- it

1 uses the word "Serbs." It says Serbs are guaranteed the same rights as

2 the Croatian people. That's what I mean. You remember reading that,

3 don't you, sir, in the Croatian constitution of December 1990?

4 A. No, no.

5 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me, sir, that in 1990 there were

6 extremists on the Serb side, among the Serb leaders in the Krajina; yes or

7 no?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Would you agree with me that, at Serb rallies in 1990, there would

10 be -- that there would be sometimes people who would dress in Chetnik

11 dress or symbols? They would appear at those rallies. Yes or no?

12 A. Do you know who established the Chetnik movement and how old it

13 is? I know much more about that than about the chequer-board which,

14 according to you, is many hundred years old.

15 Q. Sir --

16 A. If you are interested in the Chetnik symbols, please ask me. I

17 know a lot about that.

18 Q. Sir, one thing that is great about this job is that I get to ask

19 the questions and I get to decide what questions I want to ask. So if you

20 would just answer my question: Would you agree with me that, at Serb

21 rallies in 1990, there would be -- there would be sometimes people who

22 would dress in Chetnik dress or symbols at those rallies? Do you agree

23 with that?

24 A. What is a Chetnik symbol for you? Is the Serbian tricolour flag a

25 Chetnik symbol for you? Because that was the symbol most often displayed.

1 You have to put a specific question to me before I can give you a

2 specific answer. Which symbols?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just answer the question directly, sir. You were

4 asked -- he will explain symbols later but answer the question now. Do

5 you know -- would you agree that, at Serb rallies in 1990, there would be

6 people who would sometimes come there dressed in Chetnik dress or symbols?

7 It's either yes, you know -- yes, you agree or no, you don't agree.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's so difficult about answering that? It's

10 taken a whole ten minutes just to get an answer, "Yes."

11 You may proceed, Mr. Whiting.

12 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Would you agree with me --

14 A. Your Honours, if you permit me. "Chetnik symbols" is a very broad

15 term. I just wanted the question to be more specific. Which particular

16 symbols? Which Chetnik units? Which period of time?

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any one of those symbols that you know to be

18 Chetnik, any one of them. Some or all of them. Now, you have answered

19 the question. That's fine. Can we proceed?

20 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that in 1990 and into 1991, Serb

22 leaders in the Krajina and in Belgrade and the Serb media in the Krajina

23 and in Belgrade incited fear among Serbs by generalising and exaggerating

24 the Ustasha threat from the Croat side? Would you agree with that, or

25 not?

1 A. I categorically refuse to agree with such a statement.

2 Q. We'll come back to that. But now I want to ask you just a few

3 more questions about Plaski separating itself.

4 As I understood you earlier today, you said that Plaski joined the

5 SAO Krajina in August of 1990, and that it joined the municipality of

6 Titova Korenica in December of 1990 or January 1991. Correct?

7 A. Correct. You just failed to mention that it was done in a legal

8 way, after a referendum.

9 Q. Well, I'm coming to that, sir. But first, before I come to that,

10 you would agree with me, would you not, that Ogulin -- Plaski, before it

11 jointed Titova Korenica, was part of the municipality of Ogulin; correct?

12 A. From 1963 onwards and up until then, it was an independent

13 municipality. From 1963 until 1991, it was part of Ogulin municipality.

14 Q. Thank you. You would agree that Ogulin -- well, the Ogulin

15 municipality was approximately 35 per cent Serb, whereas the Titova

16 Korenica municipality was approximately 80 per cent Serb in 1990; right?

17 That is before you moved Plaski from Ogulin to Korenica.

18 A. I disagree with the percentage of Ogulin municipality. I think

19 that you failed to include Yugoslavs in that figure, and those who

20 declared themselves Yugoslavs were mostly Serbs, hence the percentage was

21 much greater. As for Korenica municipality, I don't have the facts for

22 1990.

23 Q. Does the figure of 80 per cent Serb for Korenica sound about right

24 to you, or are you unable to say?

25 A. I could agree, because I know of some Croatian settlements in

1 Korenica municipality and that's it.

2 Q. Would you agree with me that the population of Ogulin in 1991 was

3 approximately 28.000, according to the 1991 census?

4 A. One of the rare issues on which you and I agree.

5 Q. And would you agree -- I will press my luck and see if we can

6 reach agreement on a few more issues. Would you agree that, according to

7 the 1991 census, of those 28.000 people, 10.000 declared themselves Serbs

8 and 580 declared themselves to be Yugoslavs. Do you agree with that?

9 A. I know that this census was partially boycotted and that these

10 figures are incorrect. It was conducted in the spring of 1991, when a lot

11 of people failed to cooperate with the Croats who conducted the census and

12 when a lot of people were gone from their villages. I know this for a

13 fact.

14 Q. Well, sir, I'm just -- I ask this question because of your answer

15 earlier, where you said that I failed to include Yugoslavs in that figure,

16 and that hose who declared themselves Yugoslavs were mostly Serbs. So

17 we're just talking about those who declared themselves Yugoslavs. You

18 would agree that in 1991 there were 580 people in Ogulin who declared

19 themselves Yugoslavs; right?

20 A. I can't speak about that because I didn't see the official facts.

21 You have to tell me who published these figures which you are using.

22 Q. Well, I'm just --

23 A. Was it the Official Gazette? Was it the statistical booklet? You

24 have to say who produced these figures. Because if they were produced by

25 the Croatian side, then I think that they were tampered with, especially

1 if they were published in 1991 or 1992.

2 Q. Well, sir, I'm really interested in what you know, and you're the

3 one who told us that, of the people who declared themselves Yugoslavs,

4 most of them were Serbs. But are you now unable to tell us how many

5 people declared themselves Yugoslavs?

6 A. I can't. I was not a member of the census commission or election

7 commission, so I can't speak of those figures.

8 Q. Okay. Well, I won't pursue it, then.

9 Let's talk about the legality of Plaski joining the SAO Krajina.

10 Did I understand you correctly yesterday - it's at page 15 of the

11 transcript - to say that Plaski joining the SAO Krajina was "perfectly

12 legal"? Is that your testimony?

13 A. From my point of view, yes. I'm not an expert in law, but those

14 people who are lawyers and who organised the referendum - and there was a

15 lady here testifying about that - they fully agree with it. And I

16 accepted that.

17 Q. You have to bear with me for a moment. I just lost my

18 transcript. On the -- when, in January of 1991, the SAO Krajina rejected

19 the authority of the Croatian Ministry of the Interior in the SAO Krajina,

20 that you would not say was perfectly legal, would you?

21 A. I think it was legal. Why are you challenging it? I think it's

22 legal.

23 Q. You think it's legal? What do you mean by "legal"? Legal in what

24 sense? Under what law?

25 A. I think that the SAO Krajina at the time had a statute. It did

1 not yet have a constitution. If this was consistent with the statute of

2 SAO Krajina -- once again, I'm not a lawyer. But I know that this was

3 written by lawyers, and some of them were here. So why didn't you ask

4 them about this?

5 Q. But from the point of view of the Republic of Croatia, and under

6 Croatian laws and Croatian constitution, it would not be legal for part of

7 the republic -- a part of the republic to suddenly declare that the

8 Ministry of the Interior of that republic no longer has jurisdiction in

9 that area. Would you agree with that?

10 A. As for the legality of Croatia separating or seceding from a

11 legally existing state, SFRY, we were the ones who wanted to remain in the

12 SFRY and Croatia seceded from the SFRY, and now you're asking me whether

13 it was illegal for Krajina to secede. I can't agree with that. I believe

14 that Croatian secession was illegal, violent and conducted by criminal

15 means.

16 Q. So you believe that about Croatia's secession and yet you believe

17 that the Krajina secession and the establishment of the SAO Krajina

18 was "perfectly legal"? That's your position?

19 A. You didn't understand me well. We simply didn't want Croatia to

20 carry us out of Yugoslavia. We were not Croatian dowry. We were a

21 constituent nation in the territory where we lived, and as such, we

22 believed that we had to remain within the SFRY. As for Croatia, it

23 seceded violently. It established paramilitary formations, and --

24 Q. But, sir --

25 A. -- started a war to secede from Yugoslavia.

1 Q. Sir, sir, I wasn't asking you about your position on Croatian

2 secession and what you wanted Croatia to do with respect to Yugoslavia. I

3 was asking you about rejecting the authority and jurisdiction of the

4 Croatian Ministry of the Interior in the SAO Krajina. That was done in

5 January of 1991 and that was not legal. Correct?

6 A. Was the Croatian constitution legal in view of the constitution of

7 Yugoslavia? And Croatia was an integral part of Yugoslavia at that time.

8 You're a lawyer yourself. Perhaps you could assist us here. How can we

9 fail to abide with the constitution?

10 Q. Sir, as I said, I get to ask the questions here, not you. So

11 please listen to my question and answer my question.

12 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I just want to say something as well.

13 Mr. Witness, I know it's a little different in your system, but in

14 this jurisdiction, it's not customary to engage in repartee with learned

15 counsel who is cross-examining you. It is his duty. He may ask you

16 questions. The Bench will stop him when he has exceeded the bounds. I am

17 advising you, because it may be that you don't quite comprehend your role,

18 that you should answer his questions, and I don't want you to be regarded

19 as disrespectful. So could you understand that from now on and respond

20 accordingly. Thank you very much.

21 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm extremely grateful.

22 Q. Sir, I will just put the question to you one more time. In

23 January of 1991, the SAO Krajina rejected the authority and jurisdiction

24 of the Croatian Ministry of the Interior in the SAO Krajina and that was

25 not legal; right?

1 A. I would disagree with you.

2 Q. I will move on. Did I understand you yesterday correctly that, in

3 1991, a branch office of the police was established in Plaski that had not

4 existed previously? It's at page 20 of your transcript. Is that your

5 testimony?

6 A. That's not what I said. I said that, in the course of 1990, a

7 police section was established in Plaski by the MUP of Croatia and it was

8 subordinated to the police station in Ogulin. Dusan Latas was appointed

9 its commander. It numbered 12 policemen, out of which eight were Serbs

10 and four were Croats.

11 Q. And that was done -- that was done by the Croatian Ministry of the

12 Interior.

13 A. I am not sure whether it was called the secretariat at the time or

14 the Ministry. All I know is that people came from Ogulin to talk to us,

15 and various local communes, about that.

16 Q. The point of my question was that it was done by the Croatian

17 authorities. That was done by the Croatian authorities; correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And that was done in 1990?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When, in 1990, was that done? Do you remember what month?

22 A. I think it was summertime. I don't remember the exact month.

23 It's been a long time.

24 Q. So it was done after the multi-party -- the first multi-party

25 elections; correct?

1 A. Yes, absolutely, after them.

2 Q. And just so we're clear, Dusan Latas is Serb ethnicity; correct?

3 A. Yes. He was not the first choice. But those of us from local

4 communes in that jurisdiction rejected the first choice, because he was

5 not competent, didn't have appropriate educational background, even though

6 he was a Serb.

7 As for Dusan Latas, he was accepted by both sides, the Croatian

8 and the Serbian side. And before that he worked for the Ogulin

9 municipality.

10 Q. Now, I want to move forward and talk about the clash at Plitvice

11 which occurred on the 31st of March, 1991. That clash occurred when the

12 SAO Krajina police tried to establish a presence at Plitvice and deployed

13 police there, including even members of the special purpose unit of Knin.

14 Right?

15 A. That's not correct. The special unit of the MUP of Croatia tried

16 to take positions in Plitvice. It was exactly the opposite of what you

17 said. The question is, who came on that day, from where. If they, from

18 Korenica, moved away from their homes 10 kilometres and these other people

19 had come from Zagreb, then you have to wonder who truly belongs there. I

20 don't know what you mean when you're referring to the special unit from

21 Knin.

22 Q. Well, let's take this one step at a time. Before the 31st of

23 March, 1991, the SAO Krajina police, including members of the special

24 purpose unit of Knin, tried to establish a police presence in Plitvice;

25 correct? Before the 31st of March.

1 A. I know nothing about that. I didn't even know that special

2 purpose units existed at the time within the SUP of Krajina.

3 Q. So your answer is "I don't know."

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is your answer? If you say no, your answer is

7 not "I don't know." What is your answer, then? Is it "I know"?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is that this is 50

9 kilometres away from my place, and that I didn't know --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not an answer to the question. The question

11 is, you either know or you don't know. You said, "I don't know." Is

12 it -- do you know?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that it happened the

14 way that the Prosecutor described it.

15 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. If you don't know, I won't pursue it, then.

17 You testified about four Croatian policemen who were arrested in

18 Plaski on the 31st of March, 1991, by the SAO Krajina police. You

19 testified that they were released the next day, but, in fact, that's not

20 true. They were held for exchange and they were held for several days,

21 held for the purpose of exchange; isn't that true?

22 A. Yes. There were attempts to exchange them for the captured Serbs

23 from Plitvice. However, we had no facilities in which to keep them

24 detained, so we released them. We didn't have a detention centre or

25 anything like that, so we released them. I think it lasted only for a day

1 or two.

2 And they were not arrested by any Krajina police. I told you that

3 we had a religious, civic rally at the time. We had internal security

4 which was not armed, and it is these people who detained them, or rather

5 they disarmed them. I think that they were armed. There were three of

6 them. They were members of the state security. They had Scorpio make

7 pistols in their bags, and then they had on their belts some ammunition.

8 And the fourth member, the policeman, he had a semi-automatic rifle and

9 another weapon. He also had a shirt with a chequer-board on it.

10 Q. So there were four policemen and they were detained; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. After the events in Plitvice, the Croatian policemen in Plaski - I

13 believe you said there were three or four at the time - were not allowed

14 to stay in Plaski unless they declared allegiance, signed a pledge of

15 allegiance, to the SAO Krajina; correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And they all left; right?

18 A. They went to the place where they were from, to Saborsko, and this

19 is where they established a police station. I spoke in detail about it

20 yesterday.

21 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think it's a convenient time.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 We will take a break and come back at half past 12.

24 Court adjourned.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.

3 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Sir, yesterday you testified that after the 31st of March, 1991,

5 Plaski was "completely cut off." But, in fact, the -- and was cut off

6 from -- by Saborsko. But, in fact, the JNA passed through Saborsko, after

7 the 31st of March into the summer of 1991, almost every day. Right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you, yourself, in May of 1991, you were able to travel to --

10 from Plaski to Knin with some 25 men, and then there was an additional

11 group of 16 or 18 men who were able to travel from Plaski to Knin and

12 return; correct? In May of 1991.

13 A. As I explained, we went along forest tracks. We used forest

14 pathways. I'll repeat again --

15 Q. And you were able to go to Knin and return, correct, in May of

16 1991?

17 A. Sir, from Vrhovina via Korenica, Gracac to Knin, all this was

18 Serb-controlled territory. It was territory belonging to the SAO Krajina.

19 Our problem was to get as far as Vrhovina.

20 Q. How did you get there --

21 A. -- after that --

22 Q. How did you get to Vrhovina?

23 A. Through forest paths, as I said; Licka Jesenica, the Javornik

24 railway station, Rudopolje, Brdo overlooking Korenica, then Gracac and

25 Knin. So the problem was to go from Licka Jesenica to the village of

1 Rudopolje.

2 Q. And, in fact, the train from Licka Jesenica that ran from Licka

3 Jesenica to Knin was still operating all the way until August of 1991;

4 correct?

5 A. Certainly it did in May and in June, because we returned from the

6 railway station, got on the train and came back to Plaski. That train did

7 not go through Saborsko. Saborsko doesn't have a railway line. It went

8 through Licka Jesenica.

9 Q. And it went from -- you could travel on that train from Licka

10 Jesenica to Knin; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And it did not go through Saborsko?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Also, in April, May, June, July, August, you could travel to Slunj

15 from Plaski; correct?

16 A. No. Civilians could not cross the military training ground.

17 Between Plaski and Slunj, there was a military training ground where there

18 was the dislocated command of the 5th Military District. It was closed

19 off with wires and barbed wire and so on, so you couldn't get through.

20 But even then, it was a track used by tanks through the forest. It wasn't

21 a proper road. The tanks would be brought on trains as far as Plaski, and

22 then they would march to Slunj on the caterpillar tracks, using their

23 track. So you can imagine what the track looked like.

24 Q. The barbed wire and fencing that you described at Slunj, that was

25 put up and maintained by the JNA; correct?

1 A. Yes --

2 Q. And --

3 A. -- as of 1964.

4 Q. And you, yourself, travelled from Plaski to Slunj, didn't you?

5 A. I went from Plaski to Trzic. That's a village in Ogulin

6 municipality, in the direction of Slunj. Along the banks of the river

7 Mreznica [phoen] we went on foot, through forest tracks. I didn't have

8 any kind of transport.

9 Q. Is this the occasion when you went with the two Croat members of

10 the JNA to Slunj, to see Cedomir Bulat?

11 A. It was later on. On that occasion I went in a military vehicle

12 from the Plaski barracks. There was a driver, and Bruno and Divica Gaca

13 [phoen] and I were in the vehicle.

14 Q. What kind of vehicle was it, sir? What kind of military vehicle?

15 A. It was a green -- we used to call it a Fiat car. It was like a

16 small Jeep. It was used for communications -- by the communications.

17 Q. And you said that was later. When was that? What month was that?

18 A. Possibly in October, 1991.

19 Q. And from Slunj you can get -- you can travel to Plitvice without

20 going through Saborsko; correct?

21 A. I'm afraid you're mixing up the Slunj military training ground and

22 the town of Slunj. At that town, the town of Slunj was under the control

23 of the Croatian MUP, whereas the Slunj military training ground, which is

24 between Plaski and Slunj, was under JNA control.

25 After the first open conflicts between JNA and the Croatian

1 forces, the JNA couldn't go through Slunj either. They had to use

2 alternative routes. The town of Slunj and Plitvice are linked by a main

3 road, an asphalt road, but we couldn't use that road because we couldn't

4 enter Slunj, the town of Slunj. The gates of the military training ground

5 were a kilometre or two away from the first houses belonging to the town

6 of Slunj.

7 Q. But, sir, the JNA could use alternative routes to get from the

8 training ground in Slunj to Plitvice; correct? Or do you not know?

9 A. When the open conflict began after the fall of the barracks in

10 Ogulin - that was in the summer of 1991 - it was between the paramilitary

11 forces and the JNA. Up until August, the JNA had been a buffer zone

12 between the Croatian and Serb forces. But as of August, the open attack

13 on JNA facilities and barracks was launched.

14 Q. If you could just answer my question, sir. The JNA could --

15 regardless of this conflict, it could use alternative routes to travel

16 from the Slunj barracks to Plitvice. Even if it did not use the main road

17 going through Slunj, it could use alternative roads. Correct?

18 A. There are no alternative routes, apart from the ones we used from

19 Plaski through Javornik and Rudopolje. There is no other route, sir.

20 Q. So your answer, your testimony, is that no, the JNA could not

21 travel from Slunj barracks to Plitvice. That's your testimony?

22 A. From the outbreak of the open conflict, which means end of August

23 and September, no, until the fall of Slunj.

24 Q. Okay. Now, let's talk about the situation in Plaski in May, June,

25 July of 1991. You've already testified that there was a regular police

1 commanded by Dusan Latas. You were commander of the special purpose unit

2 of the SAO Krajina police, and there was also a branch of the state

3 security or DB in Plaski; correct?

4 A. Not at that time.

5 Q. When was it created?

6 A. I don't know that it was created, and I don't know who created it.

7 Q. You don't know that it was -- that before November of 1991 there

8 was a DB unit or section in Plaski and that it was commanded by Djuro

9 Ogrizovic? You're not aware of that?

10 A. I knew the late Djuro Ogrizovic and I knew he had several men

11 around him. But I never received in writing, either from him or anyone

12 else, or orally, any information as to who had established that unit and

13 for what purpose.

14 Q. So you -- okay. Let's take this one step at a time. By November

15 of 1991, Djuro Ogrizovic had a unit of men; correct?

16 A. One can't speak of any kind of unit. Perhaps it was just a group

17 of men who obeyed him.

18 Q. Let's put that aside for a moment. Do you know anything about a

19 DB unit or section of Plaski being created before -- by November of 1991?

20 A. I don't know anything.

21 MR. WHITING: If we could just look at Exhibit 605, please.

22 Again, if we could look at the last full paragraph of this document.

23 Q. This is the same document we've seen before, sir. In the last --

24 MR. WHITING: Do Your Honours have the English? I'm sorry to keep

25 asking but my LiveNote is not acting properly.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your Honours have it.

2 MR. WHITING:

3 Q. Sir, do you see there in that paragraph it says -- that begins "On

4 the 8th of November, 1991 ..." and then moving to the second sentence, it

5 says -- this is, again, the document written by Dusan Latas. It says:

6 "For this task we received reinforcements of a special purpose

7 unit from Plaski, comprising about 15 men, while the Plaski DB section

8 acted directly with our unit."

9 This is in reference to the 8th of November, 1991. Does this help

10 you remember anything at all about a DB unit of Plaski being in assistance

11 at that time?

12 A. I did know about the existence of that unit. I didn't write this

13 letter. You'd have to ask Dusan about that.

14 Q. Well, sir, I'm sorry, but just a few moments ago, I asked you this

15 question and I said: "Do you know anything about a DB unit or section of

16 Plaski being created before -- by November of 1991?" And your answer

17 was: "I don't know anything." But now that I've shown you this document,

18 you're saying "I do know about that. I did know about the existence of

19 that unit." Or maybe it was misinterpreted. Did you say you did know or

20 that you did not know about the existence of that DB unit?

21 A. I said I didn't know and that you would have to ask Dusan Latas

22 about it.

23 Q. We just had a misinterpretation there.

24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Wasn't there a misunderstanding maybe also due to

25 the use of the word "unit" by you, Mr. Whiting? The witness explained to

1 us it was maybe a group. Could we talk of a group of armed people?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke about a group of men

3 gathered around Djuro Ogrizovic, and I said that I knew him personally

4 when you asked me about him. But there was some kind of squad of the

5 state security in Plaski. I know nothing about that. Nobody ever told me

6 about it. I was then the president of the municipality, and nobody ever

7 informed me of the establishment of a squad, as it says here.

8 MR. WHITING: If we could look at Exhibit 606, please.

9 Q. This is a document that's dated the 6th of November, 1991. And if

10 we could just scroll down to the bottom so we could see who it's from.

11 You can see it's from and signed by Djuro Ogrizovic. And at the top, it

12 says: "Of Recognizance Sabotage Squad Special Forces in Plaski within

13 this DB department as follows," and then there is a list of names. Does

14 that help you recollect anything about there being a DB unit in Plaski?

15 A. Could you please scroll up so I can see who this is addressed to?

16 Q. It just says "List" at the top. No address.

17 A. I don't know about this list, and I assert that anyone could have

18 written this.

19 Q. And this doesn't -- put aside the list for the moment. This

20 doesn't help you, seeing these names in this document, this doesn't help

21 you recollect anything about the existence of a DB unit or group or

22 section within Plaski at that time?

23 A. I know most of these people; in fact, I know them all. Some of

24 them are deceased. But I don't know to whom this was addressed. It says

25 here, "According to agreement." Who was the agreement reached with? I

1 really can't say anything about this.

2 Q. So, having seen this document, you still know nothing about the

3 existence of a DB unit or section or group in Plaski.

4 A. No.

5 Q. If we could look, please, at Exhibit 603. This is -- at the top,

6 it's addressed to the Krajina SAO MUP, and then it says: "SDB Korenica."

7 It's dated the 13th of November, 1991, and it's titled "Official Note."

8 And it says:

9 "On 12 November 1991, Saborsko was attacked by the Plaski TO

10 units --" no, "Plaski TO, units of the JNA, special sabotage section

11 serving with the Plaski DB, and by the Krajina SAO police."

12 Now, if we look at the bottom, there's just a number, 91-020. Do

13 you know this number to be the code number for Djuro Ogrizovic?

14 A. I don't know. But, by your leave, I notice in this first

15 paragraph that nowhere is a special purpose unit mentioned in it.

16 Q. Well, we're not talking about that right now. We're talking about

17 the DB.

18 A. You're extracting what you want from the context, Mr. Prosecutor.

19 I simply observed that in a letter signed by Dusan Latas it's mentioned

20 and yet here it's not mentioned, and it refers to the same event on the

21 same day. If that might assist, Your Honours. I apologise.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: It doesn't assist us because it is the Prosecutor's

23 job to extract what he wants from any document. Just go along with him.

24 When your counsel comes later, he will extract what he wants or what you

25 want. This time, it is the Prosecutor's turn, okay?

1 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

3 MR. WHITING:

4 Q. If we could just look at the second paragraph of the document, and

5 it says:

6 "It was my honour and task to command a company on the village at

7 axis, the centre line, with the goal of overpowering the foremost trenches

8 which were difficult to take. Also, I led our special forces to remove

9 mines from the minefields, which was executed well."

10 Then there is a reference in this paragraph to:

11 "Djuka Grubor worked with me throughout. He carried out all his

12 assignments as befitted a DB member."

13 Now, it was Djuro Ogrizovic who commanded the company on the

14 village axis, the centre line; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. If we could look, finally, at Exhibit 607, please. If

17 we could look at Exhibit 607, please.

18 A. You mentioned Djuka Grubor here. I didn't notice that name on

19 that list which you showed me, the previous exhibit, but I knew that man,

20 too. He's deceased. That man wasn't from Plaski.

21 Q. Thank you, sir. If you could just please focus on my questions,

22 we'll get done sooner. If we could look please at Exhibit 607. And if we

23 could look at page 3 of the English and page 6 of the B/C/S. You saw this

24 document before. This is the handwritten order, written by Bogdan - I've

25 forgotten his name for a minute - Grba on the 10th of November, 1991.

1 MR. WHITING: Is that page 6 of the B/C/S? If you could just

2 scroll down. I don't remember if it is at the top or the bottom, but I

3 will see it -- I will know it when I see it. I think it may be at the

4 top. Yes. And we're on page 3 in the English.

5 Q. In the second paragraph, it says:

6 "I company consists of: Special sabotage unit, II battalion 1st

7 platoon and III battalion 1st platoon. The unit is commanded by Ogrizovic

8 Djuro."

9 That's correct, isn't it? He commanded a special sabotage unit,

10 and it was part of the DB. Correct?

11 A. I don't know that. I see here that Bogdan Grba said that this

12 company would be in the attack on Saborsko, but it wasn't a permanent

13 company. You can see that it's made up of different units; it's combined.

14 So you have the first platoon of one battalion and another platoon of

15 another battalion. And that's how I received my order to attack the right

16 side. It's probably in this order, too. It's not a permanent company,

17 it's an ad hoc unit which was extracted from the brigade in order to

18 deblock, or rather to attack the Ustasha stronghold of Saborsko.

19 Q. Yes, I understand that, sir. But during that attack, he was in

20 command among other forces of the special sabotage unit, correct, as it

21 says in this document?

22 A. It says so in the document. I really didn't see them during the

23 attack. I was quite far from them.

24 Q. And, having seen all of these documents which make reference to

25 Djuro Ogrizovic and the DB of Plaski, is it still your testimony that you

1 knew nothing about the existence of a DB unit or section or group in

2 Plaski in November of 1991? Is that still your testimony?

3 A. I don't know on the basis of what I can confirm that. I have no

4 document or paper. I received no such document. I knew all the

5 commanders and officers of the brigades, battalions, the chief of police,

6 the police station commander. I was informed about everything, but I

7 really don't know anything about this. I would like you to show me

8 anything. You seem to have a whole archives, but I don't see --

9 Q. Sir, sir --

10 A. -- anywhere that anything was sent to the president of the

11 municipality, which is what I was at the time.

12 Q. Please, my question was really just very simple. And I just

13 wanted to know that it was still your position that you know nothing about

14 this DB unit. It's really a simple "yes" or "no" question. Can you

15 confirm that -- having seen all of these documents that I've shown you,

16 you know nothing about this DB unit in Plaski in November of 1991; right?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. I'll move on.

19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Whiting, before you move on, I just want to

20 pose a question to the witness.

21 MR. WHITING: Yes.

22 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And it would be in relation to Exhibit 606, I

23 believe, and the names that are set out in that exhibit. Could it be put

24 again before the witness so he could have a look at those names. Exhibit

25 606. Is it now before the witness? Very well.

1 Now, you were asked about those names and you said you knew the

2 names and some of the persons are dead. To what units, if any, did those

3 persons belong? Or what can you tell us about those persons, having

4 denied that they were members of the relevant DB? Do you understand me,

5 sir?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand you. I'm looking at

7 the names. The first one Milos Momcilovic, if that's the man I'm thinking

8 of, because in our part it is very important to include the nickname

9 because there are at least five men with that first and last name in

10 Plaski. If I only knew the year of his birth --

11 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Please keep it simple, bearing in mind what I've

12 asked you. Don't be expansive. Remember that you told us that you knew

13 the persons and some of them were dead. Think what I put to you and then

14 respond very, very pointedly. We don't want a long, expansive answer.

15 Did you understand them to be members of any units; and if so, which

16 units?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milos Momcilovic was in my unit. He

18 underwent training in Knin. After the special purpose unit was disbanded,

19 he went to the training ground, according to my information. He was

20 mobilised into the JNA.

21 Zeljko Mudric, likewise.

22 Ljuban Korolija is deceased.

23 Predrag Knezevic, I know very little about him. I think he

24 returned to Croatia, if that's the man I'm thinking of. So it's easy to

25 get information from him.

1 Jovo Kosanovic was a postman. He was employed in the post office.

2 Dusko Kompar, I don't know what happened to him.

3 Nikola Trbojevic, I don't know what happened to him either or what

4 unit he went to.

5 Mane Trbojevic was in Knin with me. He was in the unit.

6 Dubravko Vukelic, I can't say anything about him either.

7 Dragan Dokmanovic, I'm not sure which Dragan Dokmanovic this is.

8 I don't want to make a mistake. There were two.

9 Ratko Grkovic was also in the special purpose unit at the

10 beginning.

11 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Were any of those two within units that you knew

12 of, the two that you said you aren't sure which one the one listed refers

13 to.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragan Dokmanovic, also known as

15 Zuja, was in the special purpose unit until it was disbanded.

16 As for this list and this squad, I don't know about this. I don't

17 know who this was sent to. I don't know about this list, who drew this

18 up. The Prosecutor could have done this using any typewriter.

19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Witness, I want to thank you. But can I

20 remind you again, do not comment on the evidence. It is for the Bench,

21 the Trial Chamber, to reach the findings. Your duty is merely to answer

22 the questions. And you have to learn to do that. You have to abide by

23 the rules of this Tribunal. You must not comment on the evidence, and you

24 have to avoid risking the appearance of being impudent.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you suggesting, sir, that the Prosecutor is

1 creating evidence as he goes along which didn't exist? You say the

2 Prosecutor could have typed that on any typewriter. Is that what you're

3 suggesting? Are you suggesting, sir, that this Prosecutor is creating

4 evidence as we go along? Yes or no? Is that what you're suggesting? Yes

5 or no.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I doubt that this document, this

7 particular document is authentic.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you suggesting that the Prosecutor is creating

10 evidence as he goes along which just didn't exist, which doesn't come from

11 witnesses? Is that what you're suggesting? Your answer should be either

12 a "yes" or a "no". I don't want to --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This list --

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm asking you a question. Answer my question. Is

15 that what you are suggesting, sir?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have doubts about this list. I

17 think that it was planted.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, I'm asking you to answer my question. Will

19 you please answer my question, after that comment, that uninvited

20 comment? What's your answer to my question?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have doubts about the authenticity

22 of this document.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please answer my question?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, but your question is

25 not clear. Would you please repeat it?

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's very clear. My question is: Are you

2 suggesting that the Prosecutor is creating evidence as he goes along with

3 the case? Your answer should either be a "yes" or a "no." I don't want

4 any further comments on that.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, why do you make the allegation that the

7 Prosecutor could have typed this on any typewriter?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of the lists so far and the

9 documents that I have seen here had a clear indication of who they were

10 sent to and by whom, and this particular list here has the following

11 words, "as agreed."

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: "As agreed" between who and who? Are you

13 suggesting it is the Prosecutor who agreed?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By your leave, I will read this last

15 line --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- towards the bottom of the page.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Listen to my question and answer my question, sir.

19 My question, sir, to you is: Are you saying that because you read "as

20 agreed," therefore, it was typed by the Prosecutor? Is that what you are

21 saying? Is that what you are alleging?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that as a possibility, but I

23 cannot categorically affirm --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I said, is that what you are alleging sir? Again,

25 your answer should be a "yes" or a "no."

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't claim that with certainty,

2 no.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why do you make the statement, then, if you can't

4 say it with certainty? You've made the declaration to come and tell the

5 truth here. Why do you make statements when you are not certain of them?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have objective doubts concerning

7 the authenticity of this document because it doesn't resemble any of the

8 previous documents. It doesn't have the heading showing to whom it was

9 addressed, based on what, and for which purposes.

10 Every document that is an official document has to have its

11 purpose. And as for this one, it just lists the names of 11 people whom I

12 happen to know.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know where the parties in this proceeding

14 get the documents that they are using here? Were you part of the

15 investigation of this case to know that every document must have a

16 particular heading and not in a particular form? Were you part of it?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the work that I performed in

18 Plaski, I received documents from police --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you about your work in Plaski.

20 Listen to my questions. My question to you is: Were you part of the

21 investigation of this case to know exactly where every document came from,

22 to be able to say that this document should not be part of the documents

23 that were collected during the investigation of this case? Were you part

24 of this investigation team?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I wasn't even

1 hinting at that.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, why do you make allegations you cannot

3 substantiate?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't make an allegation. I just

5 gave you my opinion.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Am I lying, then? I'm lying now?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. No, that's not

8 what I said, ever.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: What are you saying?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I'm saying is that I don't know

11 to whom this document was sent. I can see that it was signed by Djuro

12 Ogrizovic, but it doesn't resemble any of the previous documents shown to

13 me.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm warning you for the very last time, okay? You

15 have a very specific role to play in this court. Yours is to answer

16 questions that are put to you. It's not for you to say where documents

17 come from or who could have generated those documents, okay? And you

18 listen to the questions that are put to you and you answer directly to

19 those questions. That's your job.

20 If there's any lack of authenticity of any document, that's the

21 job of your counsel to raise and he will do so at the appropriate time.

22 Yours is to answer questions, okay? I'm not going to hear that again,

23 okay? Because I will hold you in contempt if I hear you say that again.

24 You just sit there and answer questions. Nothing else. If I hear

25 you do something else, I will deal with it.

1 You may proceed, Mr. Whiting.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. That

3 wasn't my intention.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You'd better, indeed.

5 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Sir, I understand -- what I understood you to say just a moment

7 ago is that you do see this was signed by Djuro Ogrizovic; correct?

8 A. It says "Djuro Ogrizovic" and the signature is illegible. I'm not

9 familiar with his signature, but the typewritten text is "Djuro

10 Ogrizovic."

11 Q. Now, I'm going to move on and ask you some questions about the TO

12 or the Territorial Defence. You testified that the commander of the TO of

13 Plaski was Nikola Dokmanovic; correct?

14 A. Yes, for a long period of time, from the inception to -- I don't

15 know which time, perhaps the establishment of the JNA brigade.

16 Q. After the events -- well, let's say in 1991, the TO of Plaski was

17 supplied with weapons by the JNA; correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. The JNA ordered the members of the TO -- well, first of all, when

20 was that? When were they supplied in 1991? What month?

21 A. In July of 1991.

22 Q. And the JNA ordered the members of the TO to burn the crates that

23 the weapons were contained in after they were distributed; correct?

24 A. I only heard about that. I wasn't present when they were burned.

25 Q. And uniforms were provided to the TO by the JNA; correct?

1 A. I have to correct you. Most of the conscripts -- rather, most of

2 the people who had a wartime assignment during peacetime had uniforms in

3 their homes. So there was no particular need for the TO people to be

4 issued with uniforms. We had olive drab uniforms.

5 That's how it was organised during the SFRY. Everyone who had

6 served in the army, who had completed their military service, had a

7 wartime assignment in a particular unit. And everybody had a uniform at

8 home, all of those who were, say, under 50 years of age.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your answer directly is: They were not supplied

10 with the uniforms. Is that what you're trying to say? The question was:

11 And uniforms were provided to the TO by the JNA. Your answer is no? Is

12 that the answer?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Now try to keep it as

15 short -- rather than giving us that long story, a "no" would have

16 sufficed.

17 MR. WHITING:

18 Q. Having given that answer, if there was any particular reason for a

19 member of the TO to get a new uniform for whatever reason, that person

20 could get a new uniform from the JNA, correct, in 1991?

21 A. I can't speak about that. I'm not familiar with that.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. I don't know how that functioned.

24 Q. Fine. In September of 1991, Milan Martic participated in

25 organising brigades in Plaski, Udbina, Gracac; correct?

1 A. I cannot confirm that. I don't know what role Milan Martic had in

2 Plaski in organising the brigade there.

3 Q. I'm going to show you a document - it's document 206 - and just

4 see if it refreshes any recollection on this subject. And if we could

5 look at page 3 of the English and page 3 of the B/C/S of this document.

6 As the document is coming up on the screen, sir, I will tell you

7 that this document is a letter written by -- well, you can look just at

8 the beginning, at the top there, but it's a letter written by Dusan

9 Smiljanic to Ratko Mladic, and it's dated the 10th of November, 1994. And

10 if we could just look again now at page 3 of the B/C/S and page 3 of the

11 English.

12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Whiting, why do you say it's dated the 10th of

13 November, 1994?

14 MR. WHITING: No, I'm sorry, I meant to say the 15th of October,

15 1994.

16 Now, if we could look at the -- I've just completely lost

17 everything on my computer here. If we could look at the third full

18 paragraph.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The third paragraph starting with "In the period"?

20 MR. WHITING: Well, it will take me a moment.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry.

22 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's okay.

24 MR. WHITING: This is one of the few documents that I don't have

25 printed out in hard copy, so it's just going to take me a moment to try

1 and see it. It's the paragraph that begins "Given the great opposition

2 and problems in forming the brigade ..."

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

4 MR. WHITING:

5 Q. Do you see that paragraph, sir? Is it visible on your screen, the

6 paragraph that begins:

7 "Given the great opposition and problems in forming the brigade,

8 especially in the Lika area and part of Banja in September 1991, I

9 organised meetings of the most advanced reserve officers and then

10 representatives of the authorities in Gracac an Vrhovina in which the

11 current president of the RSK, Milan Martic, was present. Following these

12 meetings a brigade was formed in Gracac, Udbina, Vrhovina and Plaski."

13 Do you see that part of the text, sir?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. Does that refresh your recollection at all about Milan Martic

16 having a role in setting up the brigades and particularly in setting up

17 the brigade in Plaski?

18 A. I think that you read the text where it says that a meeting was

19 organised in Gracac and Vrhovina, attended by the current president of

20 RSK, Milan Martic. Is Plaski mentioned anywhere there? Was Milan Martic

21 in Plaski? The first time he came to Plaski was during a religious

22 holiday when a cornerstone was laid during the renovation of a hall in

23 Plaski. You can read this text yourself and you will see that it doesn't

24 say that he was in Plaski.

25 Q. Sir, I did read the text and I never meant to suggest for a moment

1 that he was in Plaski at this time or that the meeting had occurred in

2 Plaski. What the text does say is that, after the meeting occurred,

3 brigades were set up in these various towns and villages, including

4 Plaski. And my question to you was: Having seen this document, does that

5 refresh your recollection at all about Milan Martic having a role in

6 setting up the brigade in Plaski? It's either "yes" or "no."

7 A. No role whatsoever did Milan Martic play in the establishment of

8 the brigade in September. The brigade was established comprising the TO

9 staff. It became a TO brigade, that is to say, that a detachment grew

10 into a brigade.

11 Q. Well, in that last answer, you said, "No role whatsoever did Milan

12 Martic play in the establishment of the brigade in September." Is the

13 important words there "in September"? Do you know if he played a role at

14 all in the establishment of the brigade in Plaski?

15 A. You read a text to me. You ask me about a specific period of

16 time. When I give you a specific answer, then you draw some conclusions

17 that are wrong. I told you both then and later: Milan Martic never

18 played a role in establishing the brigade in Plaski.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I warned you a few minutes ago that your role here

20 is to answer questions, not to put questions or query people. Just answer

21 the questions, please. If there is anything inappropriate about the

22 question, your lawyer is here to object and the Chamber is here also to

23 protect you. And if your lawyer is quiet and the Chamber is quiet, you

24 can assume that the question is appropriate and yours is to answer it,

25 okay?

1 MR. WHITING:

2 Q. Well, sir, a few moments ago --

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much.

5 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Sir, a moment ago, when we started on this topic, I asked you this

7 question: "In September of 1991, Milan Martic participated in organising

8 brigades in Plaski and other towns and villages," and you said: "I can't

9 confirm that. I don't know what role Milan Martic had in Plaski in

10 organising the brigade there."

11 But now you've just told us something different, which is that --

12 you said, at line 12 of page 85: "I told you both then and later: Milan

13 Martic never played a role in establishing the brigade in Plaski."

14 So which of these two answers is actually correct? That you don't

15 know what role he played or that he did not play a role?

16 A. You said that this document would help me refresh my recollections

17 and it really did. I remember that Milan Martic, either in September or

18 in July or in November or in any months in 1991, when the brigade in

19 Plaski was established, never played any role.

20 Q. What was it about that document that helped -- that caused you

21 to change your answer from "I don't know what role he played" to "I know

22 now that he played no role"? Can you point to something specific in that

23 document that caused you to make that change in your evidence?

24 A. I used to frequently pass through Gracac and Vrhovina, especially

25 Vrhovina. I knew many people from Vrhovina, their brigade commander, and

1 I knew the problems that I had with the group --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt you? Once again, listen to the

3 question. What is it specifically in this document - not where you walked

4 past - in this document, that makes you say now you know, changed from "I

5 don't know"? Refer us to something in the document. Listen to the

6 questions and answer them directly.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm speaking of Gracac and Vrhovina,

8 the towns that are mentioned in this document where it is said that a

9 meeting of reserve officers and authorities is being organised.

10 I knew the reserve officers and members of -- representatives of

11 authorities in those areas, and I knew the problems that I had with the

12 renegades. And I can tell you that in their area it was a much larger

13 problem.

14 So what I'm saying is that perhaps Milan Martic, as an utmost

15 authority among the soldiers in Krajina, helped them overcome these

16 problems with the names of the units by establishing a single Territorial

17 Defence. Because even 50 years after the end of the Second World War, we

18 still had people being referred to as Ustashas and Chetniks, and

19 especially in Lika. We didn't have this phenomenon in Plaski because I

20 resolved these issues successfully with the TO in Plaski.

21 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. So you infer from this document that that's what was at issue in

23 Gracac and Vrhovina?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And when you say that you passed through Vrhovina and Gracac, was

1 that in September of 1991?

2 A. Both in September and in all months of 1991. I would pass through

3 Vrhovina at least twice a month, and sometimes even more frequently. I

4 knew the chief there. They had seceded from Otocac municipality and they

5 knew -- they had similar problems as we did. I also knew the commander of

6 the TO there. I visited him in his home.

7 Q. So, when you testified yesterday that, starting in March, March

8 31st of 1991 and certainly after July 22nd of 1991, that Plaski was

9 essentially blockaded, virtually blockaded, you couldn't leave Plaski,

10 that really wasn't true, because now you've just told us that at least

11 twice a month, in every month, you could go to Vrhovina and Gracac.

12 Correct?

13 A. That's correct, sir. I would frequently take those forest tracks,

14 constantly putting my own life at risk.

15 Q. Really. Now, the 6th Lika Division was based in Plitvice;

16 correct?

17 A. I think that you have a problem with the museum of the 6th

18 Division which is in Mukinje and the unit called the 6th Division. The

19 headquarters of the operations group under the command of Colonel Djukovic

20 was in this hall, which was called the hall or the museum of the 6th

21 Division.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Listen, Witness. If the 6th Division was not in

23 Plitvice, just say "No." Don't give the Prosecutor a lecture in what he

24 should or shouldn't be asking. He's asking these questions. It is not

25 for you to decide his questions for him. Please listen to his questions

1 and answer. Your role is to answer, not to formulate questions. I hope

2 you understand me now.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do understand. I just wanted to

4 clarify.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, don't clarify anything. I don't need any

6 clarification from you. I'm saying to you now: Answer the Prosecutor's

7 question now.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 6th Lika Division is a unit from

9 World War II. The 6th Lika Division, in 1991 --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Listen to the question. The question is: The 6th

11 Lika Division was based in Plitvice. You should be saying "yes" or "no"

12 or "I don't know." That's the --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine.

15 MR. WHITING:

16 Q. I'm going to turn to June and July of 1991. During those months,

17 there were busses that travelled from Saborsko to Ogulin; correct?

18 A. Up until the 22nd of July, yes.

19 Q. And when those busses went through Serb villages, such as Licka

20 Jesenica, the passengers -- the busses would be stopped and the passengers

21 would be searched, correct, at checkpoints or barricades or whatever it

22 was called?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Now, you testified about the clash that occurred on the 22nd of

25 July, 1991, and for my next questions, I would like to look at a map.

1 MR. WHITING: If we could have Exhibit 23, the atlas book, page

2 19, please. I don't know if -- that's fine, yes. And if we could zoom in

3 on the right side -- no, sorry, that's not the right page. I'm sorry, it

4 is page 19, so seven -- page 19 of the book, sorry. You're on page 12 of

5 the book. The ERN is -- 6288 are the last four numbers of the ERN. Yes.

6 And if we could go to the right side and zoom in on Ogulin there. You can

7 see it sort of right in the middle of the page, 19. There.

8 Q. Now, sir, can you just -- are you able to kind of orient yourself

9 on the map? Do you see Ogulin and then Josipdol and Plaski? And just at

10 the very -- oh, no, if we could just scroll down a little bit it will be

11 fine. Actually, it would be very good. Yes, there we go.

12 So you can see Josipdol just under Ogulin, and then Plaski, then

13 Licka Jesenica and Saborsko. Do you see all of those markings, sir?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, you testified yesterday that, with respect to the attack on

16 the 22nd of July, 1991, that -- and this is at page 36 of your evidence,

17 that the Croatian forces set out from the direction of Josipdol towards

18 Plaski. Do you remember testifying that way yesterday?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And you had a checkpoint at -- you controlled a checkpoint at

21 Vojinovac, which is located approximately halfway -- it's not on this map,

22 but it's located approximately halfway between Plaski and Josipdol;

23 correct?

24 A. It's near Josipdol, but we can say halfway, yes.

25 Q. That's fine. It is closer to Josipdol. And the clash occurred

1 there; correct? That's where the clash occurred. And you resisted the

2 Croatian attack on the 22nd of July, 1991; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So that attack had nothing to do with Saborsko, did it? That

5 attack was in completely the opposite direction of Saborsko.

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Thank you. I'm done with that map. But nonetheless, Saborsko

8 started to be shelled or attacked by Serb military forces in Plaski and

9 Licka Jesenica starting just after that, on the 5th of August, 1991;

10 correct?

11 A. That's not correct. Yesterday I explained why Saborsko was

12 targeted from the mortar, because of provocations against Licka Jesenica.

13 Q. But I want to focus on the date. It started -- put aside for a

14 moment what you say was the motivation. It started on the 5th of August,

15 1991, correct, the targeting of Saborsko by mortars?

16 A. Yes, as a response to provocations.

17 Q. Now, you testified yesterday that you used the term "Ustasha" in

18 your testimony only after we reached the point in your testimony where we

19 were talking about the three men who had been killed at Glibodolski Kriz,

20 or Glibodol cross. Do you remember that in your testimony yesterday?

21 A. Yes. And I explained that in detail.

22 Q. Yes. Can you tell us, please, what does that term mean to you?

23 What does that term "Ustasha" mean to you? What do you think of when you

24 use that term, when you think of that term?

25 A. The Croatian fascists.

1 Q. Can you elaborate at all on that? What Croatian fascists? What

2 are you talking about? What does that term mean to you?

3 A. If I can make a comparison. A difference between a Croat and an

4 Ustasha is the same as the difference between a German and a Nazi in World

5 War II. They're old allies.

6 Q. So is it fair to say that the term -- when you think of an

7 Ustasha, you think of somebody threatening -- who is a threat to Serbs;

8 correct?

9 A. Yes, a real threat.

10 Q. Okay. Now, in fact, long before November of 1991, that term was

11 used widely by Serb leaders in the Krajina and by the Serb media in the

12 Krajina; correct?

13 A. Only as a response to the rhetoric of the Croatian authorities.

14 Q. Please answer the question. It was used widely by Serb leaders

15 and the Serb media; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And Milan Martic himself used the term in his public statements,

18 didn't he?

19 A. I don't know what Milan Martic meant by the term "Ustasha." I

20 know what I mean by it. I cannot comment on his --

21 Q. My question wasn't what he meant by it, my question was: He used

22 the term in his public statements during 1991; correct?

23 A. I heard him use it on several occasions.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, it was a term that was even used in official

25 military orders and reports, wasn't it?

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. WHITING: If we could look at Exhibit 38, please, and we

3 need -- well, we need to look at page 1 of the B/C/S, and we'll start with

4 page 1 of the English but then we'll move to page 2.

5 This is a document, a TO document, from the SAO Krajina dated the

6 6th of August, 1991. If we could go to the third paragraph on the B/C/S,

7 and if we could go to page 2 of the English.

8 Q. Do you see where there is a reference to Saborsko there in the

9 third paragraph? If you could just read the first sentence of the third

10 paragraph for me, please.

11 A. "In the course of the morning, fire was opened by our forces on

12 Ustasha positions at Otocac, Saborsko, Sinac, and, according to our

13 information, considerable losses have been inflicted on the enemy."

14 Q. So that is referring to the -- to people in Saborsko

15 as "Ustashas," correct, on that date, the 6th of August, 1991?

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend is

19 incorrectly interpreting the document. This is a reference to firing on

20 Ustasha positions.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those positions are said to be at Otocac, Saborsko

22 and Sinac; is that correct, Mr. Milovancevic? That's where the positions

23 are.

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That's what is said in the

25 report, but reference is made to enemy positions.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting?

2 MR. WHITING: I can try to clarify that.

3 Q. Positions are -- these positions that are referred to are manned

4 by people; correct? That's how you understand the document.

5 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Sorry, "people" meaning civilians or people

6 generally?

7 MR. WHITING: No, no. I mean people generally.

8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Oh, very well.

9 MR. WHITING: Yes.

10 Q. I'm not trying to suggest that this is referring to civilians as

11 Ustashas. I'm simply referring -- I'll maybe put it this way: This

12 document is saying that there are Ustashas in Saborsko; correct?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think that is the very essence of the objection,

14 Mr. Whiting. Mr. Milovancevic is saying that this report refers to

15 Ustasha positions. Now, the positions may have been in Saborsko or

16 wherever, but the people living in Saborsko are not necessarily referred

17 to in this report. It is the Ustasha positions. So Ustashas may have

18 come from wherever they came from, took position in Saborsko.

19 MR. WHITING: Absolutely, Your Honour. I didn't mean in my

20 language to suggest that these people in -- Ustashas in Saborsko were from

21 Saborsko. I just meant they were in Saborsko; they were there on that

22 date.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. All right.

24 MR. WHITING:

25 Q. So maybe I will put it this way: On the 5th of August -- well,

1 5th and 6th of August, 1991, this document is saying that there were

2 Ustashas in Saborsko, wherever they may have come from. Correct?

3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned

4 friend -- well, would the Chamber please rule on my objection?

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Do you have any answer to the objection

6 before I rule, Mr. Whiting?

7 MR. WHITING: I thought I had rephrased my question to deal with

8 the objection, so I took it that it was perhaps unclear. I agreed that my

9 question was perhaps unclear as it was phrased, and I've tried to make it

10 more clear and more specific.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you understand why I didn't rule, Mr.

12 Milovancevic? Because your learned friend accepted and rephrased. Then

13 there is no need for a ruling at that stage.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I've heard

15 that now and I'm satisfied. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Excuse me. To understand the context, can we go

18 to the first paragraph? Doesn't it speak of "i Ustasha" in Croatian or

19 Serbian? What does that, then, mean, "i Ustasha," in the first sentence

20 of the first paragraph?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where is it?

22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Just above the -- we are on the second paragraph,

23 aren't we, with the Ustasha positions, "Ustaskim polozajima". But there

24 is a first paragraph. Can we start with that to understand the sense?

25 MR. WHITING: Oh, I see. It is the first sentence of the second

1 paragraph.

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. In the original it's one of the spaced

3 paragraphs. It is the second paragraph, that's true, after one paragraph.

4 There are small spaces and then "U Gracacu u," and so on. You can see

5 that paragraph, starting with "U Gracacu," And the sentence, can you read

6 that and can we get a translation? Can you read that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "In Gracac, in the village of

8 Lovinac, there has been an armed conflict between our forces and the

9 Ustashas."

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

11 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. If I could just -- before

12 we break for the day, if I could go back to my question.

13 Q. You understand this document to be saying that, on the 5th and 6th

14 of August, 1991, there are Ustashas who have positions in Saborsko;

15 correct?

16 A. This corresponds to what I said previously when I said that an

17 Ustasha is an armed guard who represents a real threat. In this case,

18 these Ustashas firing from Borik are the farmers from Licka Jesenica who

19 were working in their fields. That's why there was a response.

20 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think it's a convenient time.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting.

22 This brings us to the end of the day for today. The matter stands

23 adjourned to tomorrow, at quarter past 2.00, in this same court, court I.

24 Court adjourned.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of

2 October, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.

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