Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

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 1                           Tuesday, 6 May 2008

 2                           [Status Conference]

 3                           [Open session]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 10.08 a.m.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning to everybody.  The Chamber has

 7     convened today to determine the status of this matter and the course of

 8     its preparation for trial.

 9             Now, Mr. Stanisic, are you able to hear me in a language you

10     understand?

11             He hasn't a microphone.

12             Are you able to hear me in a language that you understand?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  It's important that you be able to

15     follow the proceedings this morning.

16             Now, appearances.  For the Prosecutor.

17             MS. RICHTEROVA:  Good morning, Your Honours.  My name is

18     Anna Richterova; to my left is Karen Beausey; and to her left is

19     Sooraya Gareeboo; to my right is Crispian Smith, case manager.  Thank

20     you.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

22             Mr. Bezbradica.

23             MR. BEZBRADICA:  Good morning, Your Honour.  My name is

24     Stevo Bezbradica, and still official counsel for Mr. Mico Stanisic, who

25     is present in this courtroom this morning.  Thank you.

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 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

 2             The matter we're dealing with, of course, has not been formally

 3     called and it might be useful for the record if that were now done.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 5     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-79-PT,

 6     the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 8             Now, since the last time that there was a Status Conference in

 9     this matter, which was on the 9th of January, there have been

10     developments particularly recently which caused the Chamber to have

11     considerable concern as to the potential for this case not to be ready

12     for trial.  Let me make it clear that this is one of three cases that

13     will be commenced during the second half of this year and could be called

14     upon to commence as early as late July.  The situation, of course, is

15     that three trials are in their final stages, and when those trials

16     finish, the next three cases will necessarily have to be ready to

17     proceed.  And this one is one that has been waiting for some time, it's

18     important that it proceed, and we want to be sure that things are in

19     order for that to happen.

20             What particularly caused the Chamber concern is the issue of the

21     representation of the accused, Mr. Stanisic.  There have been

22     difficulties with the present Defence counsel and his payment, and then

23     there was a formal notification by the accused that he wished to

24     represent himself and not to continue with the present representation.

25     The position that concerns the Chamber is that while that is happening

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 1     the capacity of Mr. Bezbradica to properly and adequately represent the

 2     accused is obviously being adversely affected.  He is not currently

 3     receiving the normal instructions that he would receive, and there is

 4     apparently not the normal communication that there would be between

 5     counsel and the accused.

 6             Given the need to ensure that certain critical matters which

 7     remain to be dealt with in the final preparation of this case are dealt

 8     with and dealt with properly so that the trial is ready and the accused's

 9     Defence in particular is ready for trial, the Chamber felt it important

10     that we look closely at this issue of the representation of the accused.

11             To that end, it appeared to the Chamber essential that the

12     accused be present here for these proceedings and orders were made for

13     his return to The Hague for that purpose from the provisional release

14     that had previously been in place.

15             The Chamber is informed that following yesterday's hearing before

16     the principal Legal Officer that Mr. Stanisic had discussions yesterday

17     with representations of the Office of Legal Aid and with the Deputy

18     Registrar of the Tribunal.

19             Can we take this moment, Mr. Stanisic, if I address you fairly

20     directly to point out to you the very great significance that there is

21     for you in ensuring that you are adequately represented and that your

22     defence is properly prepared and properly presented.  I don't think we

23     need to emphasize to you the importance of the issue of whether you are

24     found guilty or not guilty of the charges that are being brought against

25     you.  It is obvious that if you have a significant defence, that should

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 1     be properly prepared and presented during the trial.  It's also the case

 2     that the trial can be expected to take many months.  It will not be, we

 3     hope, one of the enormously long trials that can occur in this

 4     jurisdiction; but it is still a trial that can be expected to take in the

 5     order of a year.  It may finish more quickly than that if all parties are

 6     well prepared and the issues are focused on clearly, but it's going to

 7     be, even with that, a trial of some length in which you will be called on

 8     to be in court normally five days a week, which is the sitting practice

 9     of this Chamber, for example; and that means that witness after witness

10     will come, you will need to be prepared to deal with that witness, to

11     present what needs to be put to that witness, and to prepare your own

12     witnesses and have them ready when the time comes.

13             I see that you did graduate in law some years ago, but I gather

14     that you've not been practicing law.  Your interests have been mainly

15     elsewhere.  And frankly, the task of keeping up with the pace of a normal

16     hearing is simply too much for one person.  If you were to be

17     representing yourself, the consequence would be that some of the things

18     that you would want to do in the preparation and presentation of your

19     defence could not adequately be done because you would just not have

20     enough time and energy to be able to do them as well as they ought to be

21     done.

22             Now, if you were representing yourself, the Trial Chamber would

23     do what it could to try and ensure that your case was being adequately

24     presented.  But in the end, the responsibility of the Chamber is to do

25     two things:  To give you an opportunity to present your case properly,

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 1     but also to ensure that the trial is finished as efficiently and as

 2     quickly as possible.  We can't just let the case drift on at a pace that

 3     you find comfortable.  This Tribunal has had to conduct a number of

 4     trials where accused people have sought to represent themselves, and

 5     we've been learning from each one of those cases how better to deal with

 6     the problems that they often present.  No two cases are the same, that's

 7     obvious, but one thing that we have learnt is that it is just not fair to

 8     anybody, least of all the accused, but certainly not to the other accused

 9     waiting to be tried, to allow the case to just go at a pace that is so

10     slow that one accused can adequately present the defence.

11             So it cannot be the case that you can expect to be able to handle

12     the case in your own time, in your own way, and we want you to be very

13     aware of that.  You want and you need and you ought to be able to ensure

14     that your case is presented as adequately and soundly as possible, and

15     that is obviously very much in your interests.  It's also in the

16     interests of this Tribunal to try and ensure that the trial is fair and

17     the issues are fully presented, and it's also in the interests of

18     everybody to ensure that that can be done as quickly and efficiently as

19     possible so that the trial can be shorter and a final decision, whether

20     it be not guilty or guilty, is reached as quickly as possible.

21             For that reason, the Chamber would suggest to you very, very

22     firmly that it would not be in your interests to be representing yourself

23     and trying to take the load of conducting your own defence alone

24     throughout the trial.  You need competent assistance.  You will be busy

25     but with others doing some of the work as well, it is in that way

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 1     possible to keep up with the pace of the trial, to be prepared for each

 2     of the witnesses, and to have your own case ready.

 3             Therefore, the Chamber was very gravely concerned at your advice

 4     that you wished to conduct your own defence.  We would urge you to

 5     consider that position very carefully, and we would put to you that

 6     really you are putting yourself at risk of not being able to put your

 7     case properly, no matter how the Trial Chamber tries to help if you do

 8     not have legal representation to help you.

 9             Now, you are aware and it's common knowledge that you have been

10     provided with counsel to assist you under the legal aid scheme of this

11     Tribunal.  One issue is whether you wish to change counsel at this time.

12     It is getting very near the end of the preparation of your defence and

13     there are obviously problems about changing counsel at this point, and

14     this Chamber has to look carefully at any proposal that you have.  It is

15     the case, though, that it could be open to you if your mind, for whatever

16     reason, is clear that you would like to have other counsel assigned, that

17     it would be possible for you to choose other counsel from the lengthy

18     list that is available of counsel who are able to appear here who are

19     experienced counsel.  Now, the Chamber does not want to go into the

20     questions of your relationship with the counsel who's represented you now

21     for, I think, over two years and who has been conscientiously performing

22     that responsibility.  But if it is the situation that you are clear in

23     your mind now, for whatever reason, that you want some other counsel to

24     represent you, well then that needs to be dealt with quickly and

25     decisions made in fairness to the preparation of your defence, in

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 1     fairness to your present counsel who has been carrying on with great

 2     difficulty in recent months, and in fairness to whoever you choose to be

 3     your new counsel because they must now pick up a case and under some time

 4     pressure get prepared themselves and become fully familiar with your

 5     case.

 6             So we are putting to you the situation I hope very clearly.  A,

 7     that if you really want to represent yourself you would be doing yourself

 8     harm, you would not be putting forward your best case.  And we would have

 9     to consider very carefully as a Chamber whether we could allow that to

10     happen.  We would urge on you the view that you really do need to be

11     represented in the conduct of your trial because that way there is the

12     best chance that all the matters favourable to you will be put forward in

13     the best way.  If it is the case that what you want to do is to be

14     represented but by some other counsel, that should be dealt with - we

15     would suggest - during this week; it can't just run on as it is at the

16     moment.

17             So we would take the position that we would ask the -- you've

18     lost the translation, have you?  Is it back again?  Thank you.

19             We would take the position that we would ask the Deputy

20     Registrar, Mr. Hocking, to continue discussions with you with the head of

21     the legal aid office of this Chamber, with a view to resolving in the

22     next days of this week finally whether your present counsel is to

23     continue or whether you wish another person to be assigned or what it is.

24     And the Chamber will, if necessary, reconvene this Status Conference

25     later in the week to deal with the matter further.  We would like you to

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 1     consider your position in light of what we have been saying now, in the

 2     hope that you can reach decisions which will enable your case to be

 3     properly presented with the assistance of counsel that you are happy to

 4     have go forward to present your case through the assistance of the legal

 5     aid scheme that is available here.  And we want you to reach your

 6     decisions, taking into account what we've tried to indicate to you

 7     briefly about the difficulties and disadvantages of the sort of course

 8     you were contemplating.  It's not right to ask you now to make decisions.

 9     You ought to have some time to think about it further, and we will

10     arrange for the Deputy Registrar and the legal aid office head,

11     Mr. Petrov, to speak to you again and discuss possible arrangements.  And

12     because of that we would also invite Mr. Bezbradica to remain in The

13     Hague during the next few days of this week, with a view to the matter

14     being finalised.  It may be that there will be a clear decision that you

15     continue; it may be there will be a clear decision that some other

16     counsel be appointed, and we would hope that that can be arranged, even

17     in the course of today, if not then in the course of tomorrow.  The

18     Chamber will be here sitting in another case and we'll be able to convene

19     at short notice, if necessary, to assist further in that matter.

20             Have you been able to follow what we've been suggesting so far to

21     you, Mr. Stanisic, about the need for some final decisions to be made

22     about what you wish to do, and depending on those decisions the Chamber

23     may have to consider further particular orders.  But we'll look at that

24     after you've had time to reflect.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

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 1             JUDGE PARKER:  It's been pointed out to me, Mr. Stanisic, that

 2     you nodded that you had understood what we were saying and that you would

 3     give the matter consideration, but you didn't say so and so the record

 4     doesn't reveal.  If you have understood what we are saying and will think

 5     about the matter, perhaps you could just indicate yes, you will do that.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first of all I would

 7     like to thank the Trial Chamber which showed understanding three years

 8     ago and issued a decision on my provisional release, and thus allowed me

 9     to adequately prepare for the upcoming trial.  All the changes that have

10     occurred in the meantime I claim will not have a bearing on any of the

11     dead-lines in preparing my defence because I've been actively working for

12     three and a half years now with a team of advisors who are in Belgrade,

13     and we have also taken Mr. Bezbradica on board occasionally through

14     e-mail.  We have not been able to contact him in any other way.

15             I can promise you at this point that I will reflect on my

16     position and the option whether to represent myself or to take another

17     counsel, but as far as Mr. Bezbradica is concerned I don't want to waste

18     any of your time but my final conclusion is that I cannot accept him as

19     my Defence counsel.  Maybe there will be an opportunity to go into the

20     detail of that decision, but maybe this is not a good time.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  It is not a good time, and the Chamber would make

22     clear to you, Mr. Stanisic, that it will be for the Chamber to make that

23     decision because you are in a position where you're receiving legal

24     assistance.  And we have to try and ensure that your trial is conducted

25     fairly to you, and the step of simply saying, I want to represent myself,

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 1     has such potential adverse implications for your defence that this

 2     Chamber would have to give very careful consideration to whether it would

 3     allow that move.  And that's why we have been, A, trying to make you

 4     understand some of the difficulties that lie ahead for you if you were to

 5     want to go down that course; and also why we have been very genuinely

 6     interested in urging upon you the course of considering, if it is that

 7     you wanting to change counsel, to make that decision and have some other

 8     counsel appointed as quickly as possible because that will then enable

 9     this Chamber to accept that your defence is again being adequately

10     prepared and will be ready to be properly presented.  So I hope that's a

11     little more clear to you now.

12             It's not the case at this stage, in the last stages of

13     preparation for trial, that you can simply say without more, No, I'm

14     going to represent myself, because our responsibility is to ensure for

15     you a fair trial and an efficient and speedy trial.  It might preclude us

16     from agreeing to that course.

17             Well, if you could look at that question of counsel in the next

18     day or so as soon as you're contacted again, we would be very grateful.

19     And what we will now do is to move on to quickly canvass some other

20     matters and -- yes, Mr. Bezbradica.

21             MR. BEZBRADICA:  [Microphone not activated]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

23             MR. BEZBRADICA:  [Microphone not activated]

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Could you turn on the microphone.  Yes, thank you.

25             MR. BEZBRADICA:  Your Honour, I apologise, because I interrupt

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 1     you, but you mentioned a few minutes ago that I need to stay a few days

 2     further in The Hague.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Does this create a problem for you?

 4             MR. BEZBRADICA:  Yes, Your Honour, because when I came in I

 5     didn't know for your -- for this new point that I need to stay here.  I

 6     already booked only for three days here, and tomorrow I'm going back.  I

 7     have my obligations there in Melbourne, I didn't know.  It was easy for

 8     me to book few days to stay here before I know for this

 9     Status Conference; it's really hard for me to do that now because I

10     really need to go back there.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  What time tomorrow is your flight?

12             MR. BEZBRADICA:  Departure time is 12.00 a.m. you know, at this

13     moment I'm really doing really hard work because at this stage I have to

14     cover up everything, and I did that.  It is really hard to stay here

15     because I have to go there to finish some necessary job for me who is --

16     which is a connection with my office there.  Thank you.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE PARKER:  We have a notice from your written communications,

19     Mr. Bezbradica, that you have been experiencing some difficulty gaining

20     instructions about various matters.  Would you be in a position to

21     indicate to the Chamber how you feel the relationship is at that moment?

22     Are you in a position to continue, as it were, to conduct the defence of

23     the accused or is this a matter which you find has become impractical or

24     impossible?

25             MR. BEZBRADICA:  Yes, Your Honour.  As you are aware, I am in

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 1     this case since the 5th of May, 2006, and two days two years.  On the 5th

 2     of March, Mr. Stanisic asked for my withdrawal from the case, and already

 3     my submission to the Tribunal, and the Registry already explained reasons

 4     why I thought that accused -- that Mr. Stanisic's allegations are not

 5     correct to me and I did explain that.  From the beginning we had really

 6     good communication to each other -- especially I have really good

 7     communication with him.  Now something is coming back.  And my intention

 8     is not to repeat everything what's happening and my --

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  No, we're not asking you to do that.

10             MR. BEZBRADICA:  No, that's right.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  We just want to know where you find yourself at

12     the moment.

13             MR. BEZBRADICA:  At the moment I don't like, Your Honour, to

14     represent him before the Tribunal for -- I think that our relationship,

15     because of his allegation, there is already broken and cannot be

16     reconciled under any condition.  I don't know what will be your decision.

17     If you decide that I must go there and that -- you know, I will obey your

18     decision, but it will not be my free will.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  We're grateful for that indication,

20     Mr. Bezbradica.

21             MR. BEZBRADICA:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  It's one of the factors the Chamber must take into

23     account as it deals with the decisions reached by Mr. Stanisic as he

24     reflects on this matter.  We're grateful for that.  We will work on the

25     basis that you will be departing tomorrow on a flight at noon and it may

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 1     be that some final indication of your position can be given by then,

 2     otherwise that communication to you will be in your office in Melbourne.

 3     So thank you for your preparedness to be here and for the indication

 4     you've given.

 5             If the Chamber could now move on, there is a motion for leave to

 6     amend the indictment from the Prosecution which was one of a number of

 7     motions which for a time this Chamber had thought better left for the

 8     actual Trial Chamber that would conduct the trial, when it appeared

 9     likely that that would be another Trial Chamber.  Circumstances have

10     changed with the progress of other cases and the availability of

11     Chambers, and it's clear now that we need to deal with these final

12     matters relevant to the preparation of the case for trial, even though at

13     this moment it's not possible to be certain exactly when this case will

14     begin and before which Chamber.  So we are giving attention now to those

15     matters which have been held.  And the question of the amendment of the

16     indictment has come back into sharp focus.

17             We did give a decision early in April, which called upon the

18     Prosecution to reconsider the indictment with a view to limiting its

19     scope, that is, to lessening the range of allegations in the indictment.

20     The Prosecution has made, as we requested, a response to that, in which

21     it proposes the removal of some particular allegations but does not in

22     any way diminish the charges that are brought and the essential range of

23     what is alleged in what the Prosecution now proposes is substantially

24     that that was there before.  There has been the identification of some

25     particular sites or locations that could be removed, but they still

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 1     leave, even if those changes were made, a very wide-ranging indictment.

 2     And because of that, the Chamber is of the view that it should look fully

 3     and carefully at the question of whether an order should be made by the

 4     Chamber pursuant to Rule 73 bis, which would be more effective in

 5     lessening the range and scope of the present indictment.

 6             For that reason, Ms. Richterova, the Chamber would ask that in 14

 7     days from now, within 14 days from now, that you might present formal

 8     submissions pursuant to Rule 73 bis about the indictment.  We would make

 9     it clear that the Chamber has no fixed or final view about this matter,

10     but we are concerned that what is presently alleged is very wide-ranging

11     and it may be that the essential issues of the case from the point of

12     view of the Prosecution can be adequately dealt with in the smaller, more

13     confined indictment.  And therefore, we must ask you to put in more

14     detailed submissions so that the Chamber can reach a view whether it

15     ought to order the reduction of the indictment more than was proposed in

16     your response made a couple of weeks ago.

17             There will be a formal order published to that effect, but it

18     will be with a view to submissions being made by the Prosecution within

19     the next fortnight.  Is that time, do you think, adequate for your

20     purposes?  We fixed on it, having in mind that you have just looked at

21     the indictment and come up with proposals so that a lot of the work and

22     thought has already been dealt with and we were of the view that probably

23     a fortnight then was a fair and adequate time for you.

24             Is that the case?

25             MS. RICHTEROVA:  I think two weeks could be adequate time;

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 1     however, if Your Honour allow me to address just very briefly few points.

 2     I think it is important to consider our 24th April submission in

 3     combination with our previous submission, our submission in relation to

 4     presentation of evidence pursuant to 92 bis, 92 ter, also on 29 of

 5     February we filed our amended list of witnesses.  And we have reduced the

 6     time of presentation of our case quite significantly.  We reduced it from

 7     243 hours to 175 hours, and if you take into consideration our proposal

 8     from 24th of April when we suggested, first, to remove completely certain

 9     seven of crime sites or incidents plus we proposed not to lead any

10     evidence on 76, approximately 76 other crime sites and incidents.

11     Together it is already over 100 sites for which we don't intend to lead

12     any evidence, which is half of the case.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Um --

14             MS. RICHTEROVA:  Half of the incidents, yeah.  So --

15             JUDGE PARKER:  We've looked at that, and of course what you're

16     now doing is possibly part of the submissions you would make under 73

17     bis.  We're aware of it, but we feel that it is a case where we should

18     explore fully whether the indictment can sensibly and properly be reduced

19     further, and we would therefore like your full and reasoned submissions

20     about that.  We don't lightly see it as our role to step in and limit the

21     indictment just arbitrarily; we want to give you a proper scope for

22     presenting your case.  But when we look at what your case presently is,

23     what you propose your reduced case should be, we think we have reason to

24     look more closely and fully at whether it can be reduced even further.

25     So we'd be grateful if you would do that.

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 1             MS. RICHTEROVA:  Of course we will try to do our best.  We -- I

 2     only would like to know whether Your Honour suggest that we file a

 3     proposed amended indictment in which we would incorporate all suggested

 4     changes.  Because at this moment we have our 9 May motion, 14 February

 5     motion to amend the indictment.  Now we proposed another scope --

 6     reduction of the scope of the indictment.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  We have a rough working document which probably

 9     does that, but as Judge Thelin points out there may be some

10     misunderstandings or uncertainties about that and it would be a wise

11     precaution if you were to file a -- your understanding of what you want.

12             MS. RICHTEROVA:  I think --

13             JUDGE PARKER:  So, yes, it is a useful and helpful suggestion,

14     we're grateful for it.  Yes.

15             MS. RICHTEROVA:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour.  And we will file

16     it within two weeks.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

18             Can I make it clear, Mr. Stanisic, so that you're aware with

19     Mr. Bezbradica as to what is happening.  The Chamber has called on the

20     Prosecution to think of reducing its indictment, making it smaller,

21     removing some of the allegations against you.  The Prosecution about two

22     weeks ago made some proposals to make the indictment smaller.  The

23     Chamber has said to the Prosecution, We, the Chamber, wants to look more

24     closely at that to see whether the indictment can be made even more

25     smaller, whether we can reduce the indictment more.  From your point of

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 1     view, any reduction in the indictment will be to your advantage.  The

 2     Chamber is doing it from the point of view of trying to ensure that the

 3     essential case against you is presented but not with unnecessary breadth

 4     of allegations and range of issues.  We want to get down to what really

 5     is the essential case, and for that reason we are asking the Prosecution

 6     now within another 14 days from now to look again to see what matters

 7     might or might not be further reduced out of the indictment.  The Chamber

 8     will then decide whether the indictment should be further reduced or not

 9     in light of those submissions.

10             So understand that's what's happening.  We're seeing whether the

11     indictment can be made smaller, which will lessen your task in defending

12     if that should happen.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE PARKER:  The Chamber is also now looking at a new third

15     motion by the Prosecution for judicial notice of previously adjudicated

16     facts to be taken.  The Chamber has given some decisions about these

17     matters already, and the Prosecution has now moved firstly a third motion

18     on the 25th of January this year and then a fourth motion on the 24th of

19     April this year, proposing further adjudicated facts and those motions

20     will be now considered and dealt with by this Chamber.  There is a

21     proposal to amend the witness list by the Prosecution.  It removes some

22     witnesses, proposed the addition of some others, and of course that is

23     affected by the actual indictment.  If the indictment were to be reduced,

24     that list may have to be further amended.  But the Prosecution has

25     proposed presently, at present, that there be a change to it Rule 65 ter

Page 136

 1     witness list; and we have had responses from the Defence about that and

 2     we will give consideration to that.  And that applies not only to its

 3     motion of the 29th of February but also its further motion of the 25th of

 4     April.

 5             There is a motion for protective measures for certain witnesses

 6     which the Chamber will deal with, and there are also motions for the

 7     Prosecution to be able to present part of its case from a number of

 8     witnesses pursuant to Rule 92 bis, 92 ter, and 92 quater, which are forms

 9     of written evidence with or without cross-examination, and also pursuant

10     to Rule 94 bis, which deals with expert witnesses.  Now, those matters

11     are also now to be dealt with by the Chamber.

12             The only motion from the Defence which the Chamber presently has

13     is one concerning remuneration of assigned counsel which was filed on the

14     9th of April and which we will give consideration to.

15             The Chamber has asked the parties to explore agreed facts.  We

16     understand that the position is that there has been no agreement reached,

17     proposals having been made by the Prosecution; the Defence has not

18     responded positively.  This was dealt with last in the Status Conference

19     in -- on the 9th of January this year.  At the moment, from the point of

20     view of the Chamber, that is a matter which will have to await a

21     resolution of the Defence counsel position because this does call for

22     positive decision by the Defence whether to agree certain facts and at

23     the moment change of counsel will perhaps affect the approach taken to

24     that.  So at the moment the Chamber is working on the basis that there is

25     no present prospect of agreement being reached on any of the proposed

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 1     facts.

 2             The point of all this, if I can make it clear, Mr. Stanisic, is

 3     that there are often matters which can be agreed because there are facts

 4     that the Prosecution wants to be accepted and there are facts that the

 5     Defence doesn't dispute.  If they can be agreed, it means that some

 6     witnesses don't have to be called and can speed up the trial.  So it's a

 7     matter that is useful for focusing on what really is in dispute in the

 8     trial and ensuring the trial can proceed as quickly and efficiently as

 9     possible.  So once there's been resolution of the Defence counsel

10     position, we would ask that there be a sensible look at proposals for

11     agreed facts because it's in your interests, as well as the Prosecution,

12     that if there are facts that aren't disputed to have them formally

13     agreed.

14             I wonder --

15             MS. RICHTEROVA:  Your Honour, if I --

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

17             MS. RICHTEROVA:  -- address this issue.  I would like to clarify

18     certain points.  There are some agreements.  If Your Honour remember in

19     your decision from December in relation to adjudicated facts, certain

20     facts were transformed into agreed facts.  In addition to these facts,

21     there was communication between the Prosecution and the Defence about

22     additional agreed facts, and we managed to reach a limited number of

23     agreed facts.  However, when we proposed a consolidated list of these

24     agreed facts, the negotiation was stopped and the Defence refused to

25     communicate any further.  So this is one clarification which I wanted to

Page 138

 1     make.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, thank you for that.  I think you had

 4     proposed some 60 facts, and it was thought that perhaps 26 facts might

 5     have been agreed.  But it -- all of that, as we understand it, is now not

 6     moving forward and we think resolution of Defence counsel issue first may

 7     then enable the issue of agreed facts to be looked at again.

 8             MS. RICHTEROVA:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

10             I was about to turn to you, Ms. Richterova, to ask whether there

11     are any difficulties now being experienced with disclosure and how that

12     is progressing.

13             MS. RICHTEROVA:  This issue was addressed yesterday during 65 ter

14     conference.  I do not have any problem -- or better say I hope

15     Mr. Bezbradica expressed that he has received all our disclosure.  And if

16     he was missing something, he always addressed first the Prosecution.  So

17     I think the disclosure -- there is no problem regarding the disclosure.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

19             Is that your understanding of the position, Mr. Bezbradica?

20             MR. BEZBRADICA:  Yes, Your Honour.  Everything is correct what

21     Ms. Richterova said.  In due time -- at the moment I'm receiving all CDs

22     necessary for this procedure, but only now at the moment because this

23     situation is a little bit confused because of my request for my

24     withdrawal.  I don't know how can I provide Mr. Stanisic with everything.

25     In -- since the 5th of March, when I received official -- his request for

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 1     my withdrawal, in the two occasions I mailed by express post from

 2     Melbourne to Belgrade few CDs, in which each parcel, and by two occasions

 3     I have been confirmed by Australia post that Mr. Stanisic received that.

 4     The third parcel -- yesterday I spoke with Belgrade it has not been

 5     received by him because in the meantime he came back to The Hague now.

 6     Now I don't know how can I provide him with everything.  Is it good that

 7     Prosecution directly provide him with that CDs or not.  Maybe in the

 8     space of time they are going to mail directly to me to Melbourne and I

 9     have mail back to The Hague.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  You're posing a couple of issues there.  The first

11     one is to ensure that anything you have presently received is

12     communicated to Mr. Stanisic.  And it seems there is one bundle still in

13     the mail that hasn't been received by Mr. Stanisic.  We will --

14             MR. BEZBRADICA:  Yes, it is correct, and I understand -- I have

15     been advised yesterday that when I'm coming back to home I have to make

16     official request back to Melbourne everything and after that I should

17     mail to him here.  I haven't tried to provide him with two last CDs

18     because I know that they can't reach him -- he is already here.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Have you brought them with you or are they in

20     Melbourne?

21             MR. BEZBRADICA:  I have it here, it is copies I have here with

22     me.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  I would expect it would be practical for you to

24     make those available to Mr. Stanisic here so that you wouldn't have to

25     trouble about mailing them, and we would expect that the one that you

Page 140

 1     have mailed that have not yet been received you will be able to ensure is

 2     received by Mr. Stanisic.

 3             The second limb of your question is for the future, what happens

 4     about future disclosure to you.  And I believe that will be resolved this

 5     week by decisions about the future representations and conduct of

 6     Mr. Stanisic's case.  Because if it is the case that you do not continue

 7     as counsel, if that's the outcome, there will be no point in any further

 8     service made on you.  It will be service on the newly appointed counsel

 9     or whatever is the arrangement.  Okay.  So that problem should resolve

10     itself in the course of this week.

11             The -- I know this week you've been inconvenienced, Mr. Stanisic,

12     by coming to The Hague and I know that you now seek to have provisional

13     release reordered.  The Chamber will look at that, but we really need to

14     get resolved this representational issue; and if things are then back on

15     the rails we can look at the resumption of your provisional release.  I

16     take it you see no problem with your health, do you, at the moment with

17     the trial continuing?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  You shook your head very firmly saying, No

20     problem; is that right?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Problems with health is something I

22     fear most.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  We share that problem.

24             Very well.  Well, the Chamber will look forward to hearing from

25     you, Mr. Stanisic, progress in the consideration of this question of your

Page 141

 1     representation, and we hope all of that can be finalised in the course of

 2     this week.

 3             Yes, Mr. Bezbradica.

 4             MR. BEZBRADICA:  I apologise, I made mistake, my departure time

 5     tomorrow is 12.00 noon, not 12.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  I understood that, you're travelling probably

 7     Singapore airlines --

 8             MR. BEZBRADICA:  Malaysia.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Malaysia, right.  I knew the departure times.

10             Very well.  Now, is there any other matter that you feel needs to

11     be raised, Ms. Richterova?

12             MS. RICHTEROVA:  Thank you, Your Honour.  There are no other

13     issues.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

15             Mr. Bezbradica.

16             MR. BEZBRADICA:  Your Honour, you already mentioned that

17     Mr. Stanisic asked for his release from the detention, also from my side

18     I also filed my motion on the 2nd of May.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  They will be considered and dealt with.

20             Is there any other matter you want to bring up, Mr. Stanisic?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, except for putting in

22     additional effort to resolve this problem, I don't have anything else I

23     would like to raise right now.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Stanisic.

25             Well, I hope that by the end of this week we'll have got

Page 142

 1     everything resolved and the whole of the case back on track to be ready

 2     for trial hopefully even by the end of July.

 3             We will now adjourn.  We would thank all parties for their

 4     attendance and assistance today.

 5                           --- Whereupon the Status Conference

 6                           adjourned at 11.10 a.m.