1. 1 Thursday, 16th July, 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

    7 Case number IT-97-24-T, the Prosecutor versus

    8 Kovacevic.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. D'Amato.

    10 MR. D'AMATO: Your Honours, we would like to

    11 thank the Prosecution for the session we had last night

    12 which was in line with the Court's wishes to allow us a

    13 chance to go over the shorthand notes of the witness's

    14 interviews with Dr. Kovacevic and Mr. Stakic in 1996.

    15 We would like to make the following notation

    16 for the record. We all know, the Tribunal knows, that

    17 our client is on trial for his life, and that the

    18 statements of the witnesses relating to conversations

    19 that he had with the accused are of significant

    20 importance to the defence of our client.

    21 Rule 68 is couched in a way that is extremely

    22 broad, and just to call your attention to the relevant

    23 language: "Evidence known to the Prosecutor which in

    24 any way tends to suggest the innocence or mitigate the

    25 guilt of the accused or may affect the credibility of

  2. 1 Prosecution evidence," must be disclosed as soon as

    2 practicable.

    3 And we would like to report that our session

    4 last night was extremely productive. Comparing

    5 yesterday's testimony of this witness to the notes last

    6 night, my colleague, Mr. Ostojic will be presenting to

    7 you word changes, embellishments and selective

    8 retentions by the witness, which after all is only

    9 natural since he's not using any notes at this trial,

    10 that change the tone and the tenor of the charges and

    11 the words that he put in our client's mouth.

    12 In addition, the Prosecutor had presented to

    13 us, at the beginning of the trial, along with the

    14 indictment, a typed translation of the full notes of

    15 the witness, and we appreciated that, but there are

    16 changes in that too. There are inconsistencies that my

    17 colleague will point out between those typed versions

    18 and the notes that we read last night.

    19 In light of this, I would like to ask this

    20 Tribunal that we need some additional material that the

    21 Prosecution has been reluctant to give us. I think I

    22 can state the totality of it in a few short sentences,

    23 so you'll know exactly where we stand with this.

    24 We don't want any private matters that are in

    25 the witness's journal, we don't want any irrelevant

  3. 1 matters, but we do want all matters that are relevant

    2 to any aspect of the testimony that Mr. Vulliamy

    3 testified in chief. Including, but not limited to, in

    4 1992, we want all notes relating to the journey to both

    5 camps, all notes relating to the journey from both

    6 camps, and, of course, all notes taken at any time

    7 within both camps.

    8 We also, in 1992, want all notes relating to

    9 the meeting at which Dr. Kovacevic was present in

    10 Prijedor.

    11 With respect to 1996, we want, including but

    12 not limited to, all relevant materials relating to the

    13 interviews and teas with Professor Koljevic and the

    14 interviews with Mr. Milutinovic, Major Milutinovic, and

    15 any other relevant materials that touched on any aspect

    16 of Mr. Vulliamy's testimony that he gave in chief, and

    17 that would be the extent of it, but we need those, and

    18 we need those in a timely fashion, in order to be able

    19 to confront the witness with any discrepancies between

    20 those notes and his testimony in chief.

    21 Thank you very much.

    22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Keegan?

    23 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour.

    24 Last night, as counsel indicated, going well

    25 beyond, in fact, what the Trial Chamber directed, which

  4. 1 was simply production of the copies of the notes,

    2 understanding the Defence might be concerned about the

    3 issue of surprise, we offered, if Mr. Vulliamy was

    4 willing to give them an informal reading, have him read

    5 the notes, so that they could make notes and decide

    6 what they wanted to do.

    7 During the course of that, we also provided

    8 not only the notes which you ordered to be produced,

    9 which were the '96 notes, but also the notes from the

    10 '92 meeting which he had. We also brought, beyond

    11 what you ordered, the actual books to that meeting, as

    12 opposed to simply bringing them to court as you

    13 directed so that they could look at the pages. What

    14 then followed, however, went beyond the pale of what

    15 was envisioned, by the end of which I simply offered

    16 that the -- as counsel had referred to them, the

    17 translations that were available are, in fact, not the

    18 translations, they are the typewritten notes which

    19 Mr. Vulliamy himself made the night following the

    20 interviews, and I offered those as the most complete

    21 record since Mr. Vulliamy himself can't even read all

    22 of his notes anymore.

    23 Those, as counsel has indicated, notes

    24 referring to the accused, the complete transcript as

    25 prepared by Mr. Vulliamy immediately after the event,

  5. 1 were provided as part of the supporting material. They

    2 have been translated into Serbo-Croatian for the

    3 accused, as all the supporting material has been from

    4 the original indictment, so they've been aware of this

    5 since they were provided the supporting materials

    6 shortly after the time of his arrest, the complete

    7 interview, which was available for them to

    8 cross-examine on.

    9 There is, however, in that notebook, in

    10 particular for example, with the pages following on his

    11 visits to the camp, the notes of many people to whom he

    12 spoke, both victims, witnesses, and, in fact, guards.

    13 There is information contained in that book which is

    14 entirely private. As the Trial Chamber noted

    15 yesterday, this book is a private matter for the

    16 witness. It was not intended to be a record to be used

    17 for production at a trial, nor is it in most

    18 jurisdictions envisioned to be such, nor is it

    19 discloseable, except in very extreme circumstances.

    20 If the Court feels compelled in any way to

    21 grant any part of the Defence request, what we would

    22 then request is there would be, because of the

    23 sensitive nature of any material in there, an in camera

    24 review by the Trial Chamber for them to determine if

    25 there is any material that should be disclosed in those

  6. 1 subsequent pages, at which point if there is

    2 information, that could be lifted out and turned over.

    3 However, with respect to the interviews which

    4 are the issue in question here, as we noted yesterday

    5 on the record, we believe that the most appropriate way

    6 to proceed was to have them read strictly into the

    7 record right off the top, and in hindsight it was a

    8 mistake to offer the informal reading because of the

    9 way things transpired.

    10 So we would request that if there is going to

    11 be any kind of consideration of a further review of the

    12 notebooks, it be done in camera. If we're going to

    13 deal with the notes as produced already, we have copies

    14 of both the notes and those typed transcripts which

    15 Mr. Vulliamy himself prepared immediately after the

    16 event, which we'll make available to the Trial Chamber

    17 for production into the record as we suggested

    18 yesterday at the close. But we would strongly object

    19 to any further intrusion into those books by Defence

    20 counsel, which is what was attempted last night.

    21 JUDGE MAY: Well, the best evidence of what

    22 occurred would be the record which the witness made at

    23 the time. It leads, of course, to difficulties as to

    24 how we are to get at that record fairly to all sides

    25 and respecting the privacy of those records.

  7. 1 It seems that no difficulty occurs about the

    2 1996 interview. There is a typed record. If there are

    3 inconsistencies with the notes, then we could have the

    4 typed record, the inconsistencies could be pointed out,

    5 and the typed record could be corrected, and that way

    6 we will have a record of that conversation. So that,

    7 it seems, does not present any difficulties.

    8 Greater difficulties are presented by the

    9 1992 notes, and clearly there may be matters in those

    10 notes which are of significance. There may be matters

    11 which are relevant to the Defence which would not

    12 appear to be significant to anybody else, only those

    13 who knew what the defence was would know the relevance

    14 of those matters. So clearly, to the extent that we

    15 think that the relevant notes from 1992 should be

    16 disclosed, we will accede to the Defence application.

    17 The question then remains as to how we are to

    18 proceed in order to balance what is relevant and

    19 significant with regard to what is irrelevant and

    20 private, and we think the only way to try and deal with

    21 that is to have a hearing in camera at which the

    22 witness will be asked about the notes, and it would

    23 seem that this is probably the most convenient time to

    24 deal with that.

    25 MR. D'AMATO: Thank you.

  8. 1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will go into Chambers.

    2 Is the notebook available?

    3 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, it's here in

    4 the courtroom.

    5 MR. D'AMATO: Your Honour, did I understand

    6 you to say that in 1996, you are not going to give us

    7 the Milutinovic and the Professor's notes relating to

    8 that same -- because that was part of the testimony.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's a matter we can

    10 consider in due course.

    11 MR. D'AMATO: Okay, good.

    12 JUDGE MAY: Let's deal, first of all, with

    13 the 1992 notes.

    14 (Closed session).

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  9. 1












    13 Pages 946 to 1021 redacted - in closed session













  1. 1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

    2 (Open session).

    3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

    4 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    5 Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:

    6 MR. OSTOJIC: May I proceed with my

    7 cross-examination? Thank you.

    8 Good afternoon, Mr. Vulliamy.

    9 A. Good afternoon.

    10 Q. Sir, we covered some areas yesterday

    11 involving specifically notes that you may or may not

    12 have taken and notes that you shared with us actually a

    13 little bit yesterday and today.

    14 What I would like to know is to have your

    15 thoughts on whether or not the notes are more reliable

    16 historian, if you will, of the events that you took or

    17 your recollection? Which would be more trustworthy, in

    18 your opinion?

    19 A. The notes as read earlier. They are

    20 contemporaneous notes, selections from -- taken at the

    21 time, a long conversation.

    22 Q. I don't mean to imply anything, but just as a

    23 general concept, would you agree with me that the notes

    24 that you recorded and/or took down and having any

    25 conversations, regardless of whether it was with

  2. 1 Dr. Kovacevic or others, that notes that you recorded

    2 are more trustworthy than a recollection that a person

    3 would have a year or two or four years later?

    4 A. I would say that the notes were trustworthy

    5 as an account of what was said and written down. As

    6 you know, questions are omitted. I trust both my

    7 recollection and the notes.

    8 Q. And that's fair. We're going to introduce an

    9 exhibit later on, but I just want to get some

    10 background on this exhibit since we're talking about

    11 notes and I just want to follow up on that theme just

    12 briefly. I have and counsel for the Prosecution has

    13 tendered to us a witness statement that apparently you

    14 had given to the Office of the Prosecutor; correct? I

    15 mean, do you recollect giving such a statement?

    16 A. I'm not sure which witness statement this is.

    17 Q. Well, that might be my point, actually. How

    18 many witness statements did you give to the

    19 Prosecution?

    20 A. I gave a statement in two other trials and

    21 I've discussed -- I gave a statement in this case, I

    22 think, but I'm not sure which one you're referring to,

    23 so I can't really answer your question. Sorry, I mean

    24 I will if I know what statement is being asked about.

    25 Q. And --

  3. 1 A. Happily.

    2 Q. And I'll try to be more precise because I

    3 don't know which statements are out there that you

    4 made. I'm hoping that you, as a historian recollecting

    5 those things, can help me during my inquiry here. I

    6 know you gave statements in two trials, but I'm saying

    7 independent of your trial testimony, I have a witness

    8 statement that's approximately 15 pages long that was

    9 given to us from the Prosecutor's Office. It doesn't

    10 relate to any specific case and we'll talk about that

    11 once you've had a chance to review it. Is it your

    12 testimony that you gave a statement involving

    13 Dr. Kovacevic's case?

    14 A. I think so, yes.

    15 Q. If I may for a moment address this with the

    16 Tribunal and Presiding Judge?

    17 Your Honour, we have one statement that was

    18 tendered to us that -- and I'm not certain because

    19 there's absolutely no caption as to which case it may

    20 or may not be. It seems to me that we were told by the

    21 Prosecutor's Office, upon endorsing a receipt that this

    22 witness statement relates to another matter, not the

    23 Dr. Kovacevic matter, so if there are more than a

    24 couple statements, which we suspect there may be, based

    25 on his testimony here, and we do just want to cover it

  4. 1 thoroughly, we need that statement as well, and I

    2 apologise if I should have brought this up earlier. I

    3 couldn't anticipate his questions on that.

    4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Keegan.

    5 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. That

    6 statement was taken by another trial team for a

    7 different matter, and that will be readily apparent

    8 from the content and the names of the people who took

    9 the statement. There was no statement taken from this

    10 witness either for Tadic or for this case.

    11 JUDGE MAY: So as far as the Office of the

    12 Prosecutor is concerned, that is the only statement, is

    13 it?

    14 MR. KEEGAN: That's correct, Your Honour.

    15 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    16 Q. So Mr. Vulliamy, hearing that, would you

    17 agree with me that your recollection that you maybe

    18 gave a statement to the Prosecutor's Office in the

    19 Kovacevic case isn't true?

    20 A. I have been interviewed by the Prosecutor's

    21 Office. What is or isn't called a statement, I don't

    22 know, but I have been interviewed by them, yes.

    23 Q. The statement that we're going to talk about

    24 that the Prosecutor mentioned -- and I say this

    25 respectfully -- that may or may not relate to this

  5. 1 case, do you remember reading a 15-page document,

    2 initialling every page and ultimately signing the last

    3 page of the document?

    4 A. I remember doing that in another case, yes.

    5 Q. And when about did you do that; do you know?

    6 A. 1996?

    7 Q. Let me help you out.

    8 A. Pardon me, just to finish my answer, it's

    9 difficult to know without knowing which document you're

    10 referring to. I've been interviewed by the Prosecution

    11 here on a number of occasions, and I don't know which

    12 is this, and I recall signing a statement but I don't

    13 know which one this is.

    14 Q. And I recognise that. That's why I was just

    15 merely trying to help you out. In fact, the statement

    16 I have, and I'm sure we can have a stipulation on that,

    17 is a statement signed by you March 28, 1997,

    18 approximately a year and a few months ago. Do you

    19 remember that?

    20 A. Well, if that's what I've signed, then that's

    21 what you've got.

    22 Q. How many times did you visit with the

    23 Prosecutor's Office in connection with Dr. Kovacevic's

    24 case?

    25 A. In connection with Dr. Kovacevic's case, I

  6. 1 believe only once, and that's when I was over here

    2 helping the Prosecution on another trial, called by the

    3 Prosecution on another trial.

    4 Q. Was that other trial the Tadic trial?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Who met with you from the Prosecutor's Office

    7 in connection with Dr. Kovacevic's case?

    8 A. Mr. Keegan.

    9 Q. Anyone else?

    10 A. Not officially, I believe, no. I think

    11 Ms. Hollis, I might have met her, you know, in the

    12 corridor, but Mr. Keegan in all formal transactions.

    13 Q. To the best of your recollection, sir, when

    14 was that meeting with Mr. Keegan?

    15 A. I can't exactly remember. It would have been

    16 sometime last year, I imagine, possibly earlier this

    17 year.

    18 Q. We discussed briefly at one point a

    19 typewritten statement of approximately six pages

    20 regarding notes that purport to be made by you -- and I

    21 again say that respectfully -- made by you in

    22 connection with a conversation that you had with

    23 Dr. Kovacevic in 1996. Do you know what I'm referring

    24 to?

    25 A. Yes, I'm pretty sure I know you're referring

  7. 1 to notes of the conversation I typed up the following

    2 day, yes.

    3 Q. When did you give these notes that you typed

    4 up the following day after your conversation with

    5 Dr. Kovacevic to the Office of the Prosecutor?

    6 A. Sometime last year, I think, possibly the

    7 year before. I can't remember. I think sometime last

    8 year.

    9 Q. Did you mail it to him?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Did you give it to him personally?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. How was the mode of transportation of this

    14 document?

    15 A. As I recall, it was on a computer disk.

    16 Q. Did you give them the disk?

    17 A. No. I sent it by courier.

    18 Q. Do you still have that disk?

    19 A. No, I don't. They have it, I think.

    20 Q. Do you know for sure whether or not they have

    21 this disk?

    22 A. Do I know for sure whether they've got the

    23 disk? No, I don't. I haven't seen it since.

    24 Q. I don't know if in the last few days you have

    25 had a chance to ascertain it back or take possession of

  8. 1 it, that's why I ask. So you don't know?

    2 A. I don't know because, no, I haven't

    3 ascertained to take it back and I haven't taken it

    4 back.

    5 Q. Forgive me for asking: Can you be a little

    6 more precise as to the time you sent the disk to the

    7 Office of the Prosecutor?

    8 A. It would have been sometime after I made the

    9 notes, a matter of months, but I honestly can't

    10 remember exactly when it was.

    11 Q. So is it fair to say it was a couple of

    12 months after your conversation with Dr. Kovacevic in

    13 February of 1996; correct?

    14 A. Yes, it would have been during the Tadic

    15 trial but, to the best of my recollection, after I

    16 testified in the Tadic trial, but I can't be exact, I'm

    17 afraid. I could consult my diary if I have any record

    18 of that.

    19 Q. Did the courier package that contained the

    20 disk that you sent to the Prosecutor's Office, did it

    21 contain an introductory letter by you?

    22 A. Oh, most certainly, yes.

    23 Q. Who has that introductory letter?

    24 A. I don't know.

    25 Q. Do you recall, as you sit here, a year or so

  9. 1 ago, what that introductory letter said?

    2 A. Absolutely not at all.

    3 Q. I wouldn't expect you to. But I don't know,

    4 some people have a much better memory.

    5 A. I don't remember what I would have written in

    6 the introductory letter, but I'm sure there would have

    7 been some explanation what the disk was.

    8 Q. How long, if you recall, was this letter to

    9 the Prosecutor's Office that accompanied the disk?

    10 A. I can't remember. I expect a side or

    11 something. I honestly can't remember how long the

    12 letter was.

    13 Q. Did you correspond with the Prosecutor's

    14 Office in writing on any other occasions other than

    15 this one occasion that we're discussing now?

    16 A. What? Over the years, you mean? Yes. I

    17 think so.

    18 Q. I'd like for you to break that down for me,

    19 but I'd specifically like for you, sir, if you can, to

    20 highlight when it involved Dr. Kovacevic?

    21 A. Well, I don't recall written correspondence,

    22 but certainly Dr. Kovacevic was part of the

    23 preparations for my testimony in the Tadic trial, the

    24 meeting in Prijedor was mentioned. I was obliged,

    25 during that trial, to talk about the meeting, the notes

  10. 1 of which I read this morning, to talk about the camps.

    2 My job in that trial was to establish what I think is

    3 called widespread or systematic pattern, and I would,

    4 by then, have talked about Dr. Kovacevic and my

    5 interview with him in 1996 because I can remember

    6 testifying about the conversation when I was testifying

    7 in the trial of Dusko Tadic.

    8 Q. Anything else?

    9 A. Written correspondence?

    10 Q. Yes.

    11 A. Not that I can recall.

    12 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may, Your Honour, I --

    13 just so the record is clear, I would like to make a

    14 formal request to the Prosecutor, if permitted, to

    15 obtain that disk and that cover letter or any other

    16 corresponding letters between them and Mr. Vulliamy,

    17 specifically in connection with Dr. Kovacevic.

    18 Certainly, although interesting, it's not relevant on

    19 other matters and we're not asking for that at this

    20 time.

    21 JUDGE MAY: Well, you can make the request.

    22 No doubt it's been noted.

    23 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    24 Q. Now, Mr. Vulliamy, you interestingly just

    25 said that your job was, and you were responsible for,

  11. 1 certain things in the Tadic trial. What do you mean

    2 when you say it was your job?

    3 A. I was called as what was described to me as

    4 being an expert witness and I was asked questions

    5 which -- many of which didn't seem relevant to this

    6 particular case or to this particular Defendant, but I

    7 understood later that the purpose of this was to

    8 establish a widespread or systematic pattern which was

    9 necessary for the bringing of charges in a court of

    10 this kind rather than a normal criminal court.

    11 Q. Why did you think at that time that those

    12 things the Prosecutor was asking you didn't seem

    13 relevant?

    14 A. Well, I was talking about places, some of

    15 which have been admitted in this trial, some of which

    16 haven't -- look, I'm not a lawyer. My understanding of

    17 the difference between this Court and an ordinary court

    18 in a country is that of which people are accused here

    19 has to be part of a pattern, and I think you'd better

    20 ask them.

    21 The Prosecution at the time in that case was

    22 interested in the fact that I had been in Bosnia for,

    23 on and off, mostly on, between 1991 and 1996 and that I

    24 had a widespread view of what was going on and did I

    25 think that something systematic was happening? That's

  12. 1 what they were asking me and they were asking me about

    2 the full spectrum.

    3 Q. I'm just pausing for the interpreter because

    4 yesterday I was admonished about it, so I appreciate

    5 you waiting for my next question.

    6 Sir, did the Prosecutors tell you that, in

    7 fact, they needed certain elements within their case,

    8 regardless whose case it is, including Dr. Kovacevic's,

    9 therefore they were asking and inquiring and shaping

    10 your views of the war in order to fit certain elements?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Not knowing they needed this systematic, as

    13 you called it, plan, were they asking you questions or

    14 did they initially tell you that "We need to establish

    15 a systematic plan. Can you give us the facts which may

    16 or may not support that?"

    17 A. They were asking questions. I knew more

    18 about the war than they did.

    19 Q. Who is the "they"?

    20 A. The prosecuting lawyer in that case was

    21 Michael Keegan.

    22 Q. Just so that we're clear which case we're

    23 talking about. Was that the Tadic trial?

    24 A. Dusko Tadic. I also was asked to give

    25 similar evidence in a different trial, that of

  13. 1 Mr. Blaskic, and was called to do so and did.

    2 Q. Again, I'm trying to get a time frame so that

    3 we don't cover a period that's outside the scope of the

    4 Tribunal's ruling and also to try to limit it to keep

    5 it in perspective for you.

    6 The disk and the Tadic conversation that you

    7 had with Mr. Keegan regarding establishing yourself as

    8 a "expert," which came first? Did you deliver the disk

    9 to the Prosecutor's Office or did you first met with

    10 Mr. Keegan?

    11 A. I met with Mr. Keegan for the first time

    12 before I sent him the disk, yes, definitely. I first

    13 met Mr. Keegan long before that.

    14 Q. A couple more questions just on the disk, and

    15 I apologise for that.

    16 A. It's not a problem.

    17 Q. You had this disk, and is it your testimony

    18 that you typed into your computer immediately after

    19 your visit with Dr. Kovacevic in 1996, based on your

    20 notes, the conversations that you had with him?

    21 A. Yes. The typewritten notes you're talking

    22 about were written the following day in Zagreb as an

    23 aide-memoire -- if anyone's calling them transcripts,

    24 then I don't accept that, they were an aide-memoire to

    25 myself in order to organise the material thematically

  14. 1 in preparation to writing an article, which is my prime

    2 responsibility, and it was a question of organising the

    3 material that I had and -- in a way that I could make

    4 sense of it for a reader, who I was thinking about at

    5 the time, not a court of law, and also there was the

    6 fact that my colleague had been with me at the same

    7 meeting, and we were comparing recollections of the

    8 meeting and organising the material.

    9 As regards the disk, that was sent to The

    10 Hague sometime afterwards, between then and when I

    11 testified, and I will endeavour to find an exact date.

    12 Q. I would appreciate that, thank you.

    13 A. Yes. I mean, I'll try to find if there's any

    14 receipt of it.

    15 Q. Is it fair to say for purposes of a time line

    16 that we can use -- what month in 1996? I said February

    17 and you didn't correct me, and that's fair, but I think

    18 yesterday your testimony was you met with Dr. Kovacevic

    19 in mid 1996?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. And I don't want to be unfair to you, so

    22 whatever your recollection is, I would just like to be

    23 clear on that?

    24 A. February 1996.

    25 Q. Did you at any time, after inputting the data

  15. 1 from your conversation with Dr. Kovacevic in February

    2 1996, download or print the information from your disk

    3 prior to sharing it with the Office of the Prosecutor?

    4 A. I can't remember whether I downloaded or

    5 whether I just used it on an alternative screen on the

    6 computer when I was writing. Yes, I think I would have

    7 probably had it printed up or printed it out, but I

    8 can't remember. I wouldn't have had it printed in

    9 Zagreb where I was that day because there was no means

    10 to do that.

    11 Q. Can you share with us when, if at all, did

    12 you print it out and where is that printed statement or

    13 notes, those printed notes? When did you do it and

    14 where are they today?

    15 A. If it was printed up in Zagreb, it would have

    16 been at a friend's house. If it was printed up in

    17 London, it would have been back at the office. I don't

    18 remember. But it would have been at either of those,

    19 and I don't know where the original of that is today.

    20 Q. At any time, sir, did you endeavour to find

    21 that original?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. What I'd like to know is, if you shared those

    24 notes with anyone other than the Office of the

    25 Prosecutor at any time?

  16. 1 A. Not to my immediate recollection, no, I don't

    2 think I did.

    3 Q. Now, you mentioned that you were inputting

    4 this information in a computer. How long has it been

    5 prior to 1996 that you started using a computer to

    6 input your notes?

    7 A. How long -- any notes?

    8 Q. Any notes.

    9 A. When I first started work on the newspaper,

    10 which was in 1986, the system was computerised about a

    11 year afterwards, so it would be 1987.

    12 Q. During your time in former Yugoslavia, in

    13 Croatia, and you took us through a little journey which

    14 we'll visit again through Bosnia and Herzegovina, did

    15 you have a computer with you during that period, '91

    16 through '92?

    17 A. Not in Bosnia much, no. If people used

    18 computers, we used them from the coastal hotels in

    19 Croatia. When we were in Bosnia, there was no

    20 electricity, so it wasn't much use having a computer.

    21 Q. So you didn't have a computer with you during

    22 your journey through Bosnia, or did you?

    23 A. Which journey?

    24 Q. The one through -- from January through

    25 August of 1992, that period in particular?

  17. 1 A. August 1992. I wasn't there in January

    2 through -- but in 1992, no, I didn't have a computer

    3 with me, no.

    4 Q. Did you have a computer during your journey

    5 through different parts of Croatia and/or Bosnia from

    6 August -- or mid August 1992 through what? How long

    7 were you there? December of 1992?

    8 A. I was there, I mean, on and off, a lot longer

    9 than that. No, I didn't have a computer.

    10 Q. I just want to clarify it because you said

    11 that you did start bringing a computer in '88, and I

    12 just want to know if, when you had a computer and you

    13 were in Zagreb for different periods of time, because I

    14 think your testimony was that after your visit in

    15 Trnopolje and at Omarska, you went for a day or two to

    16 rest in Zagreb, do you remember that?

    17 A. No, after going to Omarska and Trnopolje, we

    18 went to Belgrade.

    19 Q. Did you have a computer that you used in

    20 Belgrade during that period?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Did you input in that computer that which you

    23 witnessed?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Where is that computer and those notes today?

  18. 1 A. That computer is an old thing called a Tandy

    2 with a very small letterbox-like screen. They were

    3 jettisoned by my paper a long time ago. I don't know

    4 where that machine is. In the rubbish, I should think.

    5 Q. Do you still maintain any of the disks from

    6 your journey in 1992 specifically August of `92, in July

    7 of `92?

    8 A. There was no way of putting a disk into that

    9 type of equipment, so no.

    10 Q. Do you have any other notes or any other

    11 records, either in your home, your office, or a

    12 colleague or friend's home, involving what you had seen

    13 in your journeys through Bosnia in 1992?

    14 A. The notes are here. I read them to you. I

    15 may have written stuff in personal diaries, but that's

    16 private, and I don't even know where they are now.

    17 Q. And we did just become familiar with those

    18 notes. I'm talking about any other notes, as you sit

    19 here, do you recall that you had which involve your

    20 journey through Bosnia and Prijedor area?

    21 A. Yes. I wrote a book which was written during

    22 the summer of 1993 and completed shortly after,

    23 published early the next year, and there are a lot of

    24 source materials for that, newspaper cuttings, notes

    25 that I took when talking to colleagues, notes from

  19. 1 other newspaper cuttings, notes from books, and some of

    2 that pertains to 1992, if that's what you mean, but

    3 this is research from what I would call secondary

    4 sources, not from my own visit. They are those which I

    5 have already tendered to the Court.

    6 Q. I'm not concerned with the secondary sources

    7 at this time. I just want to make sure that I've

    8 covered all the notes that you have and all the notes

    9 that you may have in connection with Dr. Kovacevic. Is

    10 it a fair statement that all the notes you have

    11 regarding Dr. Kovacevic and the time that you were in

    12 Prijedor are included within those two volumes or

    13 books, as we'll call them, that are before you today?

    14 A. And my personal diaries, yes.

    15 Q. I'm going to have to ask you, and I

    16 apologise, how extensive are your notes in your

    17 personal diaries in connection with Dr. Kovacevic's

    18 case?

    19 A. In the diaries -- I keep -- kept a diary

    20 which was a small page per day, and certainly there

    21 were personal recollections of those visits to Omarska

    22 and Trnopolje. I actually can't remember whether

    23 Dr. Kovacevic is mentioned by name in those. I

    24 shouldn't think so. But certainly the meeting and the

    25 impressions of the day as read out from this book would

  20. 1 be mentioned in my personal diary, yes.

    2 Q. It seems clear, but I just want to make sure

    3 I have a straight answer to a hopefully straight

    4 question, and that is: Did you keep a contemporaneous

    5 diary during your visit through the Prijedor area in

    6 1992?

    7 A. The diary I would have written when we got

    8 back to Belgrade. I didn't have the -- my personal

    9 diary with me when we were wandering around Prijedor

    10 and Banja Luka, no.

    11 Q. And, sir, you still maintain that diary from

    12 those years; correct?

    13 A. I'm afraid I don't. I imagine it's in

    14 storage somewhere. I don't have it available. Not now

    15 anyway.

    16 Q. Where is it in storage?

    17 A. It could be either in London or in a place

    18 called Gaithersburg, Maryland.

    19 Q. If possible, would there be any way to

    20 retrieve that diary?

    21 A. I'll have a look for it if I've still got it.

    22 Q. Thank you. I'm going to move onto another

    23 section. I'm done with the notes. Let me ask this

    24 last question: Have we completed or exhausted your

    25 recollection of any notes, records, CDs, I mean compact

  21. 1 disks or any similar type of information in connection

    2 with your recordings of any visits you had between

    3 Dr. Kovacevic in 1992 and 1996?

    4 A. I think we have, yes. 1996, I was no longer

    5 keeping a page-a-day diary. There may be some notes

    6 from a conversation with my colleague with whom I went

    7 to see Dr. Kovacevic when I was compiling my

    8 aide-memoire, but I no longer have those.

    9 Q. Does your colleague have them, do you know?

    10 A. Well -- no, I took the notes talking to him

    11 on the phone so, no, because he never had them.

    12 Q. I want to focus a couple of questions at this

    13 point regarding the first meeting that you had at the

    14 municipal building in 1992 and your discussions briefly

    15 about that yesterday. I'll go back into it in a little

    16 more detail, so my questions are just to kind of get an

    17 understanding of exactly the time period, who's

    18 present, et cetera.

    19 A. Fine.

    20 Q. In 1992, specifically July 1992, did you have

    21 an interpreter to assist you with the translation

    22 between various parties?

    23 A. August 1992 we met Dr. Kovacevic. Do you

    24 mean July or August?

    25 Q. Well, I know you went through Belgrade on

  22. 1 July 28th, 1992 --

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. -- and I'm really concerned if you -- strike

    4 that. I'm really curious to know if you had an

    5 interpreter even through that travel?

    6 A. Yes. There were two interpreters, both

    7 employed by ITN, and one -- I don't know their second

    8 names, I'm afraid, one you can see in the television

    9 shots quite a lot, the gentleman in the jeans with

    10 glasses, and there was a lady with the second crew,

    11 whose name I never knew, and she is in the shot a

    12 couple of times. I could identify her, if you want.

    13 And she's wearing a white top. But they were doing

    14 translating, yes. Some of the translations were also

    15 done by Mrs. Balaban of the Prijedor council, as you

    16 can see on the video.

    17 Q. At this point, Mr. Vulliamy, I'm only

    18 concerned with the interpreters that were retained by

    19 you or on your behalf, so -- and I'm just trying to

    20 keep it narrow so we can move along and get to some

    21 other points.

    22 Other than these two -- strike that. With

    23 respect to your visit from July 1992 through -- was it

    24 August 7th that you left Prijedor?

    25 A. No. I left Prijedor on the evening of August

  23. 1 the 5th for Belgrade.

    2 Q. And just so we have a proper time frame, when

    3 did you arrive there? August 2nd?

    4 A. I was there for my birthday, so I think it

    5 would have been July 30th, 31st, more likely 30th.

    6 That's a date I can easily get for you.

    7 Q. And that's what I thought I read somewhere,

    8 but you confused me a little when I asked you the

    9 question of whether you were in Prijedor in July, you

    10 forced me to think it was in August, but, in fact, you

    11 were there in July 30th or 31st, right around that

    12 period.

    13 A. No, we were in Belgrade July 30th, 31st. We

    14 left for Prijedor from Pale on -- I can give you the

    15 date if you give me a moment. We left -- we went into

    16 the camps on August the 5th, so we would have left

    17 Banja Luka for Prijedor on the morning of August the

    18 5th and Pale for Banja Luka on the day before that,

    19 which would have been August the 4th. Therefore

    20 leaving Belgrade for Pale on August the 3rd.

    21 Q. So in connection with your visit in 1992 and

    22 Dr. Kovacevic, how many days were you specifically in

    23 that Prijedor area?

    24 A. One.

    25 Q. And that would have been August 5th; correct?

  24. 1 A. August the 5th, yes.

    2 Q. Sir, is it fair to say that on August 5th,

    3 1992, one or both of the interpreters accompanied you

    4 throughout your -- I don't want to call it a mission,

    5 but let's call it that. Throughout your mission in

    6 Prijedor?

    7 A. Well, I don't call it a mission. Throughout

    8 that day's work on August the 5th, 1992, there were two

    9 interpreters employed by ITN whom I was also using and

    10 there was also Mrs. Balaban in Omarska.

    11 At Trnopolje, there were two prisoners who

    12 spoke good English, whose names I'm not going to

    13 provide, if that's all right.

    14 Q. And we're not asking. Thank you. What I

    15 want to know is whether or not the interpreters

    16 accompanied you through your entire period of August

    17 5th from Prijedor to Omarska and then through

    18 Trnopolje?

    19 A. Yes, apart from a short period when I toured

    20 the Trnopolje camp just by myself with a prisoner who

    21 spoke English and who took me round the back of the

    22 camp.

    23 Q. Just so I can get a little idea of where you

    24 were when you went in the back there. I think you

    25 mentioned that you essentially had free access through

  25. 1 that camp, Trnopolje; correct?

    2 A. Relatively, yes. The bit that we first

    3 arrived at was a compound into which we could not go,

    4 but further behind that was an area into which we

    5 could -- well, apparently because I did -- whether it

    6 was permissible or not, I don't know -- but into which

    7 I was able to go with this prisoner, yes.

    8 Q. With this person that you went to visit

    9 around the camp, what area were you going to?

    10 A. It was an area around a school, as I recall.

    11 Q. Do you know or if you can recall whether or

    12 not you had an occasion to meet a gentleman that we saw

    13 on the video who I think was referred to as a doctor, a

    14 Muslim doctor, who gave you an interview, and I'm not

    15 sure what his designation was but I think he's referred

    16 to as the Muslim doctor?

    17 A. Yes, I was there when he was being

    18 interviewed, yes.

    19 Q. I know you were there when he was being

    20 interviewed and you shared that with us yesterday in

    21 some detail. That was when he was in with Penny

    22 Marshall and you stated --

    23 A. Yes, the crew was there.

    24 Q. You stated you were behind her.

    25 A. Well, I was on the -- yeah, on the edge of a

  26. 1 group of people listening, yeah.

    2 Q. My question really is -- we're now trying to

    3 focus on this period that you went around by the school

    4 yard with this person who was able to interpret for you

    5 who was not the official, if you will, or your two

    6 interpreters that you identified earlier. Did you

    7 visit with this doctor while this interpreter was

    8 accompanying you?

    9 A. No. The conversation with the doctor was

    10 being translated by one of the ITN translators.

    11 Q. How many conversations did you have with this

    12 doctor on August 5th, 1992, at the Trnopolje area?

    13 A. I wouldn't call the time when I was there

    14 while they were filming him a conversation because I

    15 didn't say anything. I was just listening and

    16 watching, and I briefly spoke to him for about two

    17 minutes, I think about 15 minutes later.

    18 Q. We heard your testimony about what the tape

    19 said and what you recalled about it and what you felt

    20 his features, and I think you gave us an interesting

    21 account of what you felt he was thinking at the time,

    22 and if you recall -- I'm just trying to jog your memory

    23 to your testimony -- you will recall you mentioned that

    24 although not seen on the video, there is a guard or a

    25 military person nearby; is that correct?

  27. 1 A. As I recall, there were quite a few, yeah.

    2 Then and at the other town.

    3 Q. What I didn't get yesterday in your testimony

    4 was the second -- or this first conversation that you

    5 had with this doctor, do you recall that, as you sit

    6 here, how long that conversation was?

    7 A. The conversation he has with the camera, you

    8 mean? I didn't actually talk to him.

    9 Q. I'm just waiting for the translator. We

    10 heard the conversation that was taped and we heard your

    11 testimony about the conversation that was taped. Was

    12 there a conversation between you and this medical

    13 doctor that was off the record that we haven't heard

    14 about yet?

    15 A. No.

    16 JUDGE MAY: I'm not sure I follow that. The

    17 witness has said that he had a -- as I understand it --

    18 he was present during the interview by the

    19 ITN reporter, as part of a group, and subsequently

    20 spoke to the doctor himself about a quarter of an hour

    21 later. Is that right, Mr. Vulliamy?

    22 A. That is correct, yes.

    23 JUDGE MAY: That is the way I understood it.

    24 Whether that was on or off the record, I'm not sure

    25 what it means.

  28. 1 MR. OSTOJIC: It doesn't. And frankly I

    2 wanted to go to this conversation and I'm struggling

    3 for one reason or another with this witness to get to

    4 that conversation. My intent is for him to share that

    5 particular conversation with us.

    6 JUDGE MAY: You're there now.

    7 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

    8 A. Certainly. It wasn't very successful

    9 because, by then, the ITN interpreters had gone and the

    10 prisoner was with me, and he was being called away.

    11 But what I was trying to ascertain was whether the Red

    12 Cross had come into this place. We talked about the

    13 Red Cross, the International Red Cross, in Omarska, and

    14 I wanted to know whether he was getting any help from

    15 the International Red Cross in this place, Trnopolje,

    16 and, as I recall, he said, no, we only get help from

    17 the Serbian Red Cross, or something like that.

    18 Q. So this doctor, the same one we saw the video

    19 of, he told you during this conversation that the

    20 Serbian Red Cross was providing medicines and supplies?

    21 A. Yes, he did.

    22 Q. How long was that conversation between you

    23 and the doctor?

    24 A. Very brief.

    25 Q. Thirty seconds? A minute?

  29. 1 A. I wouldn't want to put a time limit but, I

    2 mean, very short, yes, something of that kind.

    3 Q. Is there anything else that the doctor told

    4 you about in that conversation that you recall?

    5 A. He talked about shortages of various drugs

    6 that he wanted to have in order to do his job

    7 properly. That was about the sum total of the

    8 conversation, I think.

    9 Q. Nothing else; right?

    10 A. Not that I recall now, no.

    11 Q. I'd like to direct your attention, if I may,

    12 because I am still a bit uncomfortable with our

    13 conversations earlier, to specifically his notes in

    14 connection with the visit at Trnopolje and the contents

    15 of a conversation he had with the medical doctor that

    16 he shared with us today, so I'm trying not to divulge

    17 what it is, but I'd like to direct his attention

    18 because I think it's a bit more broader than the

    19 testimony.

    20 JUDGE MAY: This is the written note, the

    21 contemporaneous note.

    22 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes.

    23 JUDGE MAY: Which the witness has got --

    24 Mr. Vulliamy, if you can find the relevant part --

    25 A. There will be a note of that conversation in

  30. 1 here, so I can read it to you, if you like.

    2 MR. OSTOJIC:

    3 Q. Sir, I apologise. You have the volume in

    4 front of you? Can you turn to the section in

    5 connection with Trnopolje in which you took

    6 contemporaneous notes.

    7 A. Yes, Trnopolje. I'm trying to find the bit

    8 with the doctor. That's what you want me to do?

    9 Q. At this time I'm only interested in the bit

    10 with the doctor and then we're going to move on.

    11 Hopefully with the permission of the Court we're going

    12 to come back to that in a different manner. But right

    13 now we're only focusing on your recollection and we've

    14 exhausted it and now the contents of the conversation

    15 that you had with the medical doctor?

    16 A. Do you want me to find that?

    17 Q. Yes, please.

    18 A. Yeah. This will be it here. It's at the

    19 bottom of the page. Yeah.

    20 Q. Just out of curiosity, how long is it?

    21 A. It's five lines and two words.

    22 Q. With the permission of the Court, may he read

    23 that in, here today?

    24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. There's no reason why the

    25 witness shouldn't --

  31. 1 A. Not at all: Red Cro in this area we have

    2 only help from the Serbian, we have no adequate

    3 antibiotics, insulin, plasma, vaccinations, first class

    4 medicines. In this area some children are dying

    5 because anti-bio/insulin.

    6 MR. OSTOJIC:

    7 Q. Is there anything else in connection with the

    8 note that you have there with the doctor?

    9 A. Not that I can see unless it goes over the

    10 page. No. Then I talked to another doctor.

    11 Q. Another what?

    12 A. Another doctor.

    13 Q. Is this other doctor a different doctor than

    14 the doctor that was on the video screen that we saw

    15 yesterday?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. How long is that entry with that doctor?

    18 A. The second doctor?

    19 Q. Yes.

    20 A. He's from the Yugoslav Red Cross, this second

    21 doctor, and it's one, two, three ... eight lines with

    22 the word "twenty babies" underneath, and I don't know

    23 what that is, and a bottom line. So nine lines

    24 all together.

    25 Q. Did the Yugoslav Red Cross doctor ever tell

  32. 1 you how long he had been at Trnopolje?

    2 A. No, he didn't.

    3 Q. Did you ever ask him?

    4 A. I don't recall asking him, no. My question

    5 to him was for -- was whether he had visited Omarska

    6 and for his judgement on the medical conditions there.

    7 Q. Thank you. We'll get back to the transcript

    8 with the permission of the Court or to the notes with

    9 the permission of the Court at a later time. I just

    10 wanted to clarify that one point, thank you.

    11 If I may proceed on another area?

    12 Sir, generally, I'd like to get an outline of

    13 the time parameters in which you were through Croatia

    14 and Bosnia, Belgrade, etc. I have my notes, and

    15 correct me if I'm wrong, that from June 1991 through

    16 December 1991, you were in the Croatian part of former

    17 Yugoslavia; correct?

    18 A. Most but not all of the time. We were

    19 covering the war in shifts, and we were coming and

    20 going. That is the right time frame that I was there,

    21 yes.

    22 Q. From January 1992 through July 1992, where

    23 were you?

    24 A. I was working elsewhere.

    25 Q. Where?

  33. 1 A. Italy, I was in Croatia once, and in England.

    2 Q. Sir, were you ever in Sarajevo in July of

    3 1992?

    4 A. Yes, at the very end.

    5 Q. I'm familiar with your journey in connection

    6 with Dr. Kovacevic's statements and then your departure

    7 to come to Belgrade and through Belgrade, then I

    8 understand it to be into Prijedor on August 5th and

    9 then back out, et cetera. That I thought occurred,

    10 your actual arrival in Belgrade was July 28th, 199 --

    11 A. Something like that, yes. I can get that

    12 date for you.

    13 Q. Were you in Sarajevo prior to July 28th,

    14 1992?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. So it would have been sometime between July

    17 28th through July 31st, 1992; is that correct?

    18 A. Yes, we were with Mr. Karadzic's guards for a

    19 while, and on the -- all around Sarajevo and in a place

    20 called Grbavica and in Kula.

    21 Q. How long were you there? How many days?

    22 A. A day -- well, the best part of an afternoon

    23 and early evening.

    24 Q. We know from your testimony that you left

    25 Prijedor area on or about August 5th, 1992; correct?

  34. 1 A. Correct.

    2 Q. Take me through August 6th, 1992, through mid

    3 August 1992, just generally tell me where you were? If

    4 it was multiple places, excuse me --

    5 A. No no, it's OK. Right, I'm trying to do this

    6 from memory. The story was published -- the story

    7 about the camps was published on August the 7th, 1992,

    8 the -- I left Belgrade -- it was (inaudible) on the

    9 7th, I left Belgrade I think on the 8th or the 9th, I'm

    10 not quite sure, and drove through Hungary to get to the

    11 Croatian side to take up the challenge to inspect camps

    12 on that side, I went to Zagreb, the camps that I wanted

    13 to look at were down in the Herzegovina area, so I went

    14 down there. I was in Split, Capljina, around that

    15 area, back up to Zagreb. Some days later, I went to

    16 Mostar. I was in Herzegovina for quite a long time

    17 around that time. I went up to Zagreb, I went to --

    18 then I went on that long road with the refugees with

    19 the deportees over into Travnik, I was in Travnik --

    20 Q. Let me just interrupt. That's the area and

    21 it's this voyage that you took that I was particularly

    22 curious about, and that's why I asked the question.

    23 Can you give me a time frame of when all this

    24 occurred? I recognise that we're somewhere after

    25 August 9th, 1992, but if we can just be precise, with

  35. 1 the Court's permission, how long it took for you to go

    2 through Croatia and the various places up until the

    3 point you came to this convoy as you described it

    4 yesterday?

    5 A. Let's see, I leave Belgrade, the drive from

    6 Belgrade to Zagreb would have been the best part of the

    7 day, Zagreb to the coast, there is a flight down to

    8 Split to pick up a car, visit to the people who were

    9 running the camp, the Croatian camp, that was in a

    10 place called Ljubuski in Herzegovina, that's a day and

    11 a bit, I suppose we must be -- I'm guessing here, but I

    12 think we're sometime around the 10th or the 12th of

    13 August. Mostar around that time, Ljubuski around that

    14 time, Capljina around that time, went in the camp, went

    15 back to Split, got a plane to Zagreb, and this is all

    16 days and half-days, and I would have got a plane back

    17 to Zagreb sometime around the 15th, I think, because on

    18 the -- I'd like to check this with the published

    19 papers, if I may? -- but I think our journey over the

    20 mountains with the deportees was the 17th of August.

    21 Q. Mid August; right?

    22 A. Mid -- yeah, mid August.

    23 MR. OSTOJIC: I'd like, if I may, with the

    24 Court's permission, read -- because we do not have at

    25 this time photocopies of the statement that the

  36. 1 Prosecutor provided us. I believe it's familiar to

    2 him -- them, I should say, and with the Court's

    3 permission, I'd like to read it, and it's the statement

    4 of Mr. Vulliamy in connection with this period that

    5 we're talking about, in mid August.

    6 JUDGE MAY: Is there a copy for the witness

    7 who should have one? There isn't.

    8 MR. KEEGAN: We certainly didn't bring it

    9 into the courtroom, Your Honour. We didn't know he was

    10 going to be questioned on his statement, so I'm afraid

    11 I don't have one available right here.

    12 JUDGE MAY: And you don't have one,

    13 Mr. Ostojic?

    14 MR. OSTOJIC: I apologise, I don't. I can

    15 tender, with the Court's permission, this one. I did

    16 take some notes in connection with it. I don't want to

    17 be fair -- I think my words, I put them around quotes,

    18 should specifically reflect this, that I wrote down,

    19 but I again I apologise, I do not.

    20 JUDGE MAY: Well, put the passage to the

    21 witness, and if need be, you must hand the document to

    22 him to check.

    23 MR. OSTOJIC: If we may mark it as Defence

    24 Exhibit 4, I think.


  37. 1 MR. OSTOJIC: Five, thank you. Sir -- if I

    2 may proceed?

    3 Q. Sir, you have Defence Exhibit number 5 in

    4 front of you; correct?

    5 A. Me?

    6 Q. Yes.

    7 A. Yes, I do. Absolutely.

    8 Q. And just so we have the record clear, can you

    9 tell us, with respect to Defendant's Exhibit number 5,

    10 what is that?

    11 A. Witness statement, initialled by me.

    12 Q. How many pages is it?

    13 A. Fourteen.

    14 Q. And does your signature appear on the last

    15 page of that document?

    16 A. Yeah.

    17 Q. And you've initialled each page of the

    18 document; correct?

    19 A. Yeah.

    20 Q. With respect to that document, I just want to

    21 clarify one point. We were engaged in a bit of a

    22 discussion of what that document is and how it is, if

    23 you recall, and I'd like for you to flip to the first

    24 page of the document. Can you tell me, from reviewing

    25 the first page of the document, whether or not

  38. 1 Dr. Kovacevic's case or name is anywhere mentioned on

    2 that document?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. Can you tell us which case or if any name is

    5 mentioned on that document?

    6 A. I don't see the name of the case, but I can

    7 tell you, if you want to know, it's Blaskic.

    8 Q. I'd like -- and I appreciate what you can

    9 tell me, but I'm focusing on the document because I

    10 want to know -- and we'll decide later who decides

    11 whether these documents belong in which case -- but I'd

    12 like to know, for the record, if you could find for me

    13 in this 15-page document any mention of any case that

    14 you've ever testified to, including Blaskic or Tadic?

    15 A. You want me to read this -- say what?

    16 Q. I don't want you to read it, Mr. Vulliamy --

    17 JUDGE MAY: Put it to the witness that there

    18 is no mention of any particular case. In due course,

    19 no doubt, if there is mention, it can be raised, but

    20 for the moment, you could put it in general terms

    21 rather than have the witness read the entire statement

    22 now.

    23 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

    24 Q. Truly, I didn't mean for you to read the

    25 entire statement here. I apologise for that. I'm just

  39. 1 looking generally for the caption, but I will summarise

    2 and ask you a pointed question: Isn't it true, sir, in

    3 that document, from your brief review here, there is

    4 absolutely no mention of any case that is the supposed

    5 written statement belonging to -- that was a terrible

    6 question, I recognise that, and if the Court would

    7 like --

    8 JUDGE MAY: There's no mention of

    9 Mr. Kovacevic. That's established. Does it really

    10 matter whether there's a mention of anybody else or

    11 not?

    12 MR. OSTOJIC: I think it does, Your Honour.

    13 JUDGE MAY: Why?

    14 MR. OSTOJIC: It's our position that this was

    15 a general statement made by Mr. Vulliamy in

    16 connection -- to be used in every case, and this is

    17 something the Prosecution did. They didn't put a

    18 case. Earlier his testimony was, quite candidly, that

    19 he did give a statement specifically to that case. I

    20 don't see the case mentioned. If someone can assist us

    21 like the Prosecutor to tell us that within this

    22 document this specific statement is for a particular

    23 case, not including Dr. Kovacevic. There's mention of

    24 his voyage in July of 1992 within that statement --

    25 JUDGE MAY: Why don't we come to that? The

  40. 1 purpose of the statement really doesn't matter, does

    2 it? As far as the witness's evidence is concerned,

    3 it's the contents rather than why the Prosecution may

    4 have taken the statement.

    5 Let's come to the journey.

    6 THE WITNESS: If it helps the Court, I recall

    7 exactly for which case and by the Prosecution in which

    8 case this statement was taken, and it was that in the

    9 case of Mr. Blaskic.

    10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

    11 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, I'm directing your attention to

    12 page 2 of that document, and I believe midway through

    13 that document -- forgive me for not having a copy of it

    14 before me -- you state, and I quote: "The area

    15 generally controlled by the Croatian Defence Council or

    16 HVO and the Muslims -- I apologise. The Muslim-led

    17 Bosnian government army.

    18 Do you see that?

    19 A. Yes, I do.

    20 Q. Who was the leader of the Bosnian -- or the

    21 Muslim-led Bosnian government army?

    22 A. That's a reference to the president of

    23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Alija Izetbegovic, and I would

    24 imagine the General in charge of the army at the time,

    25 who I think was called Delic who were both Muslims and

  41. 1 leading the Bosnian government army. I say Muslim-led

    2 because not all the people in it were Muslims.

    3 Q. Well, what other people were in it?

    4 A. Serbs and some Croats. In fact, the deputy

    5 leader of that army was another General who was a Serb

    6 called Divjak.

    7 Q. Sir, you mentioned that he was a General,

    8 Divjak. Do you know the General's first name?

    9 A. No, I don't. I'm afraid I can't remember.

    10 Q. Do you recall, as you sit here, how to spell

    11 his last name?

    12 A. D-I-V-I-J-A-K, as I recall or maybe just

    13 D-I-V-J-A-K, something of that order.

    14 Q. Sir, do you speak any different foreign

    15 languages?

    16 A. Yes, I do.

    17 Q. How many?

    18 A. I speak Italian, I speak French, and I have

    19 very rusty Spanish, but I wouldn't want to bank on it.

    20 Q. Do you speak Serbo-Croatian or a derivative

    21 of that language, whatever people identify it with?

    22 A. No, I would not want to lay that claim.

    23 Q. Sir, during your trip to Prijedor in July of

    24 1992, was there an atmosphere of cooperation between

    25 the HVO and the Bosnian, or the Muslim-led Bosnian --

  42. 1 strike that.

    2 Sir, during your journey in July of 1992, was

    3 there an atmosphere of cooperation between the HVO and

    4 the Muslim-led Bosnian government army?

    5 A. When I first arrived in Bosnia in July '92,

    6 do you mean, and thereafter? Yes, there was, at first.

    7 Q. Refresh my recollection. When you first

    8 arrived in Bosnia, would that have been July 28th or

    9 thereabouts?

    10 A. Yeah, July 28th, yeah. Yes, at that time the

    11 two -- the two armies were fighting together, yes.

    12 Q. Now, did you ever use the term "atmosphere of

    13 cooperation" within that statement?

    14 A. I don't remember. I'd have to have a look.

    15 Q. On page 6, if you would turn to that page --

    16 I can't direct you to it, I apologise. My notes only

    17 suggest that it seems to be there. I don't want to

    18 approach the witness.

    19 With the Court's permission, may I have the

    20 document back? Perhaps I could find it quicker?

    21 Thank you. May I proceed.

    22 Q. In the second full paragraph on page 6, do

    23 you see in the third line there, approximately, the

    24 words "atmosphere of cooperation?"

    25 A. Yes, I do.

  43. 1 Q. Can you explain to us what "atmosphere of

    2 cooperation" is, please?

    3 A. I think it means that the two components in

    4 this cooperation seemed to be on the same side, in this

    5 case in a war. In general I think it means that people

    6 are -- have common cause or are cooperating with each

    7 other.

    8 Q. Your words, sir, and I'm just trying to

    9 understand exactly what they mean. I can interpret

    10 them, and I would just like to know what you meant.

    11 That's why I ask. Thank you.

    12 You described for us, did you not, that the

    13 Muslim-led Bosnian government army consisted of, in

    14 essence, Bosnian Muslims, Serbs -- you mentioned the

    15 General -- and Croats; correct?

    16 A. At the beginning, it was -- at the beginning,

    17 that army was mostly Muslim and Muslim-led, as I've

    18 tried to explain, but did contain officers and soldiers

    19 from other ethnic groups, markedly Serbs and some

    20 Croatians. As the war proceeded, that became less the

    21 case and it became more Muslim. At the time we're

    22 talking about, your description is correct.

    23 Q. So post-July and August 1992, the Bosnian

    24 government army, would it be fair to say, contained

    25 fewer and fewer Serb officers and Serbian soldiers and

  44. 1 fewer and fewer Croatian officers and Croatian

    2 soldiers? We're talking about the period after August

    3 1992.

    4 A. Yes. After October 1992, in particular, the

    5 Bosnian army -- the Bosnian government army would have

    6 contained very much fewer Croats because a war, a side

    7 show war, had started between, or was starting between

    8 the Bosnian government army and the Croatian HVO. The

    9 number of Serbs in the Bosnian government army

    10 decreased over a longer period of time, yes.

    11 Q. Is it also then fair to say that prior to,

    12 before July 1992, there were more and more Serbian

    13 officers and Serbian soldiers and likewise Croatian

    14 officers and Croatian soldiers who were within the

    15 Bosnian government army?

    16 A. Before summer 1992, there were more Serbs and

    17 Croats in the Bosnian government army than there were

    18 say a year later, thereafter, yes.

    19 Q. Specifically with respect to this matter in

    20 Prijedor, is there a date that we could cut off and

    21 say, "Well, August 1st, there were more or less Serbian

    22 soldiers and Serbian military within the Bosnian

    23 government army," or really it's difficult to say and

    24 all you could do for us is give us a general overlap,

    25 two, three, eight-week period?

  45. 1 A. To the best of my knowledge in the Prijedor

    2 area, and as I've already told the Court, I didn't go

    3 there until August 1992, I was gleaning material from

    4 the papers and television and have since acquired my

    5 knowledge from reading and secondary sources, but to

    6 the best of my knowledge in Prijedor, it would not

    7 really be appropriate to talk about a Bosnian

    8 government army. Before the Bosnian government army

    9 got itself organised, it was called the TO or

    10 Territorial Defence, I believe, and I'm not sure

    11 whether the army was in a position to establish

    12 brigades or anything like that in Prijedor. I think it

    13 had more or less gone by then and would have called

    14 itself the TO, which was, if you like, its antecedent.

    15 Q. On page 6 we mentioned the atmosphere of

    16 cooperation between the HVO and the Muslim-led Bosnian

    17 government army. I believe it also states -- and I can

    18 quote it: "And the atmosphere of cooperation between

    19 the HVO and the Muslims that were noticed before and

    20 which" -- can you follow me? Are you following me?

    21 A. I'm following you.

    22 Q. Can you read that statement into the record

    23 for me?

    24 A. Yes. The atmosphere -- this is about the

    25 town of Mostar. "The atmosphere of cooperation between

  46. 1 the HVO and Muslims that we noticed before and which

    2 had led to the defeat of the Serbs in July was now

    3 completely gone."

    4 Q. And the period of time you're talking about

    5 there, when you say the cooperation was gone, is

    6 October of 1992; right?

    7 A. This is an observation made, I can see from

    8 my statement, on the 24th of October, 1992, referring

    9 back to that July, the July of that same year.

    10 Q. So looking at that statement, would it be

    11 fair to say that on or about October 24th, 1992, the

    12 atmosphere of cooperation between at least the HVO and

    13 the Muslim-led Bosnian government army, as you put it,

    14 "was gone."

    15 A. Yes. In July, the month to which I refer,

    16 the two armies, the HVO and the Bosnian army, had

    17 fought alongside one another and pushed the Serbian

    18 forces back to an area east of the Neretva river. When

    19 I go back in October 1992, I find that the atmosphere

    20 of cooperation -- there was not an atmosphere of

    21 cooperation.

    22 Q. Thank you. I asked you questions generally

    23 prior to and after July-August 1992 with respect to the

    24 Bosnian government army, and you initially identified

    25 for us one Serbian General that was within that army

  47. 1 during that period, and then in my subsequent questions

    2 I said officers, and I just want the record to be

    3 clear. I don't mean to suggest that there was more

    4 than one. But would it be fair to state that, in fact,

    5 there were officers, plural, and soldiers, plural, who

    6 were Serbians who were within the Bosnian government

    7 army?

    8 A. Yes, there were some.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ostojic, we will be taking a

    10 break when you come to a convenient moment. Would that

    11 be a convenient moment?

    12 MR. OSTOJIC: It may be, Your Honour, thank

    13 you.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Quarter of an hour.

    15 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

    16 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

    17 MR. OSTOJIC: May I proceed? Thank you.

    18 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, we were generally discussing on

    19 Defendant's Exhibit number 5 earlier, and we now have a

    20 copy, and I want to thank the Office of the Prosecutor

    21 for providing that to us.

    22 Sir, directing your attention to page 9 of

    23 that exhibit, let me just ask you a general question:

    24 When you talked about your journey through Travnik --

    25 do you remember that?

  48. 1 A. The journey to Travnik over the mountains,

    2 yes.

    3 Q. Was that the journey that you described

    4 yesterday where you joined a convoy?

    5 A. If we're talking about the same journey, yes,

    6 that's the one, yeah.

    7 Q. Did you have more than one journey to

    8 Travnik?

    9 A. Several journeys to Travnik. I was talking

    10 about the specific one with the convoy of people from

    11 Sanski Most when I was talking yesterday.

    12 Q. Did you join more than one convoy during your

    13 several visits to the area of Travnik?

    14 A. Well, there were various convoys. There was

    15 the one I was talking about from Jajce which we joined

    16 a long way along its course into Travnik, but the main

    17 convoy that I joined was that which I described

    18 yesterday.

    19 Q. On page 9 you discuss Jajce and Travnik on

    20 paragraphs two and three; do you see that?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Generally, would that be about the time that

    23 you were discussing with us your convoys yesterday

    24 through Jajce and Travnik?

    25 A. The convoys I believe we discussed yesterday

  49. 1 were two. One was in mid August 1992 which I took --

    2 which I accompanied all the way from just outside

    3 Prijedor over the mountains into Travnik, and this one,

    4 this late October 1992, in the second paragraph of this

    5 page, is talking about the people coming out of Jajce

    6 into Travnik later in the year which I also described

    7 yesterday.

    8 Q. You described somewhat compelling how many

    9 refugees were with you in this convoy. I think you

    10 mentioned that there were 15 cars, eight or so buses

    11 and you mentioned other vehicles, modes of

    12 transportation; do you remember that?

    13 JUDGE MAY: I think it was 55.

    14 A. If we're talking about the mid August,

    15 indeed, 55 or so cars and a dozen or so trucks and

    16 buses, ten, twelve, trucks and buses. That's on the

    17 mid August convoy from Prijedor to Travnik.

    18 MR. OSTOJIC:

    19 Q. Now, it states here on page 9 that the convoy

    20 that you were on apparently in Jajce through Travnik,

    21 that: The result was the largest exodus of the war,

    22 approximately 40.000 refugees poured into Travnik while

    23 I was there. Do you see that?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. What period of time are we talking about

  50. 1 there?

    2 A. What this was was, and I wrote this in the

    3 paper at the time, the largest single exodus of the

    4 war, that is to say, the largest according to the

    5 figures that I could get, at least, and I think they

    6 were produced in documents yesterday from official

    7 bodies, the largest single movement of population at

    8 one time, 40.000 in the space of just over a day, some

    9 36 hours, was the largest single movement of people in

    10 that short space of time of the war to date and the

    11 time frame we're talking about is the end of October

    12 1992.

    13 Q. I don't see that "single" in there, the word,

    14 "the single largest exodus." But be that as it may,

    15 with respect to Jajce, on the paragraph immediately

    16 preceding that, what period of time are you talking

    17 about there?

    18 A. Sorry? Jajce fell at the end of October

    19 1992. The exodus from Jajce was, as I recall, going

    20 into -- it was the Saturday around the first day of

    21 November 1992. I don't remember whether that was the

    22 first of second or the last day of October, but that's

    23 the sort of time frame.

    24 Q. Is it fair to say you made two journeys: one

    25 in August through Travnik and Jajce, and then one later

  51. 1 in October of 1992 through Jajce and Travnik?

    2 A. No, I didn't get to Jajce. What I said was

    3 that in August 1992, I joined a convoy at Lamovitza and

    4 stayed with it all the way to Travnik, and the second

    5 convoy that you're talking about here was one which I

    6 accompanied only in its latter stage from a place

    7 called Karaula, which is towards Jajce, not in Jajce,

    8 back into Travnik; that is to say, we went out to meet

    9 it, joined it, and came back into town with it.

    10 Q. Does Defendant's Exhibit number 5, this 15 or

    11 so page document, at all reflect the voyage that you

    12 shared with us through Jajce, Travnik, Lamovitza in

    13 August of 1992? Is it reflected here anywhere?

    14 A. Well, it shouldn't be here because this

    15 statement was given to the Prosecution in a case that

    16 pertained to the other war which I talked about, and

    17 that is the war between the Muslim-led -- the Muslims

    18 and the Croats, if you like, the HVO and the ABiH in

    19 Central Bosnia, so that they weren't really

    20 particularly interested in ethnic cleansing from

    21 Serbian areas, their concern was the Lasva Valley area

    22 and Herzegovina, and so if I do go into the August

    23 convoy in detail in this statement, I'm wasting their

    24 time.

    25 Q. So is it fair to say the answer is "No"?

  52. 1 A. Well, I don't know, I haven't read it, but I

    2 shouldn't think it's here in much detail because it

    3 wouldn't have been of interest to the Prosecution in

    4 that case.

    5 Q. Did the Prosecution in that case also discuss

    6 with you the possibility of you becoming an "expert"

    7 witness?

    8 A. I think that was my title. I'm not sure. I

    9 was called to testify on what I had seen with regard to

    10 the war between the HVO and the ABiH or Bosnian army

    11 from October 1992 onwards, a war that concluded in

    12 February 1994.

    13 Q. Did they also want you to establish that

    14 pattern that you discussed, that you talked about in

    15 this case, for other matters as well?

    16 A. Sorry?

    17 Q. You talked a little bit about this pattern

    18 that the Prosecution wanted to establish, and we

    19 discussed it briefly before the break. Did they

    20 discuss this pattern that they wanted to establish also

    21 in your meeting with them in connection with the

    22 statement -- I know they're going to explain it, and I

    23 appreciate your explanation to us -- but in connection

    24 with this statement that you prepared?

    25 A. They were asking me about the pattern of the

  53. 1 HVO and Bosnian Croat plans with regard to Muslims in

    2 the terrain that the Croatians were interested in.

    3 What they were trying to establish, you had better ask

    4 them.

    5 Q. When was the first time that Mr. Keegan or

    6 the Office of the Prosecutor sought you out to be an

    7 expert witness to establish anything in connection with

    8 the former Yugoslavia and the civil war that was going

    9 on there?

    10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ostojic, I'm not going to

    11 stop you, but you have cross-examined very extensively

    12 on this topic, and I wonder if it's going to assist us

    13 to hear more cross-examination on these matters.

    14 You've been over the statements, with respect, and

    15 you've been through the notes. Perhaps we could move

    16 on?

    17 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may just have an answer to

    18 that last question? I was wrapping up this area.

    19 Thank you.

    20 A. Yes. When Mr. Keegan first contacted me, I

    21 was living in Washington temporarily and the indictment

    22 had been made for the trial of Dusko Tadic, so all I --

    23 well, I can say that it would have been before April

    24 1995 when I went back -- came back to Europe and soon

    25 after to Bosnia. I expect it was towards the end of

  54. 1 1994 or perhaps the spring of 1995. I would guess the

    2 latter. Early 1995.

    3 Q. Again, just so I have time frames down, end

    4 of 1994, spring or April 1995, you were first contacted

    5 by Mr. Keegan or the Office of the Prosecutor to

    6 potentially become a witness, and that would be an

    7 "expert" witness in connection with an indictment that

    8 was served or pending; correct?

    9 A. I don't know whether -- when the contact was

    10 first made. It was suggested that I testify. I don't

    11 recall whether or not, I'm afraid.

    12 Q. So you don't recall if it was end of '94 or

    13 early '95. My question is this --

    14 A. No, I --

    15 Q. It was definitely before your meeting with

    16 Dr. Kovacevic in 1996; correct?

    17 A. Definitely.

    18 Q. Approximately a year or so before your

    19 meeting and conversation with Dr. Kovacevic; correct?

    20 A. I imagine so. Something like that, yes.

    21 Q. When the Prosecution communicated with you to

    22 be a witness in the Tadic case, or whichever case it

    23 was that they sought your services for, did they tell

    24 you that they were going to reimburse you in any way

    25 for your time and expense?

  55. 1 A. There is a standard --

    2 JUDGE MAY: You're not going to suggest that,

    3 are you, that this witness is somehow influenced by

    4 money or anything of that sort?

    5 MR. OSTOJIC: No, I'm not, and I wouldn't ask

    6 the amount, respectfully, or anything. I was just

    7 curious to know if it was at all, and that's all. So I

    8 apologise. I can withdraw the question if the court --

    9 JUDGE MAY: I don't think it's of any

    10 assistance, really.

    11 A. I am perfectly happy to answer it.

    12 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. And my apologies,

    13 Mr. Vulliamy.

    14 Q. So did the Prosecution at all, when you

    15 visited with them in late 1994 or 1995, one year prior

    16 to your visit with Dr. Kovacevic, did they discuss with

    17 you in detail the Prijedor area?

    18 A. Yes. Of course.

    19 Q. Did Dr. Kovacevic's name come up?

    20 A. Yes, it did.

    21 Q. Did they tell you whether or not they were

    22 going to try or attempting to procure evidence to

    23 determine whether or not they can indict Dr. Kovacevic?

    24 A. No.

    25 Q. What, if anything, did they tell you about

  56. 1 Dr. Kovacevic during your visits on or about the period

    2 that you were first retained or asked to give testimony

    3 in connection to these matters before the Tribunal?

    4 A. I don't think they told me anything about

    5 him. We were talking about the camps in which

    6 Mr. Tadic was charged with having been.

    7 Q. Did Dr. Kovacevic's name ever come up?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. In what capacity?

    10 A. In the capacity of the notes that you've

    11 seen. He was there at the meeting and before we went

    12 into Omarska and was introduced as having been in

    13 charge of -- officer of the civilian authorities that

    14 were running them.

    15 Q. You use the word "in charge." I noticed

    16 earlier yesterday and a bit the day before, an hour or

    17 so. When you say "chairman" and "in charge," what do

    18 you mean by that?

    19 A. Did most of the talking at the meeting and

    20 was introduced to us by Colonel Arsic as one of the

    21 people to whom we should address ourselves if we wish

    22 to persist in our request to go to Omarska.

    23 Q. I'd like to know, sir, if you can tell me,

    24 from early 1995, before the meeting with Dr. Kovacevic

    25 in 1996, and we've established it was sometime in

  57. 1 February 1996, how many times did you visit with the

    2 Prosecutor's Office?

    3 A. Once or twice. I can't remember how many

    4 times.

    5 Q. It being three years ago, what, if anything,

    6 would refresh your recollection?

    7 A. Well, if I -- I suppose if I were to ask

    8 Mr. Keegan if he remembers how many times. I think I

    9 first came here in the winter of -- autumn-winter 1995,

    10 to the best of my recollection.

    11 Q. Would that have been the second time you met

    12 with him, because the first time I have down here is

    13 sometime in early 1995, and I don't know if you're

    14 calling "winter" that early part of 1995 or the latter

    15 part of 1995.

    16 A. To the best of my recollection, I first met

    17 Mr. Keegan in Washington, DC in the early part of

    18 1995. If it turns out to have been the latter part of

    19 1994, then I'm to be corrected, but I think it's the early

    20 part of 1995.

    21 Q. Where did you meet Mr. Keegan in Washington?

    22 A. At the office.

    23 Q. Whose office?

    24 A. My office.

    25 Q. Where was that?

  58. 1 A. Washington, DC

    2 Q. Can you give me the address of the building?

    3 A. Certainly. 1730 Rhode Island Avenue,

    4 Northwest.

    5 Q. Was that the office for your professional

    6 life being with The Guardian, or were you in some other

    7 capacity in Washington, DC?

    8 A. That is the bureau of The Guardian in

    9 Washington.

    10 Q. How long was your meeting with Mr. Keegan in

    11 Washington in 1995?

    12 A. Not very long. I think between half an hour

    13 and an hour.

    14 Q. Did you exchange any documents with him

    15 during that period?

    16 A. I don't think so.

    17 Q. Did you keep notes of your meeting with

    18 Mr. Keegan?

    19 A. I don't think so.

    20 Q. Did you correspond with Mr. Keegan at any

    21 time after this initial meeting in 1995?

    22 A. I don't think I would have -- I can't

    23 remember, actually. I don't think so, no. There might

    24 have been telephone contact prior to my first visit

    25 here. I'm sure there would have been.

  59. 1 Q. That was the first meeting. Now, take me to

    2 any other meetings that you had with Mr. Keegan from

    3 1995 up until February 1996 when you met with

    4 Dr. Kovacevic?

    5 A. I was invited to come here from London

    6 formally in the -- to the best of my recollection - if

    7 Mr. Keegan has another record, I stand corrected - but

    8 I think it was in the late autumn of 1995 when I first

    9 came to be interviewed about the situation in the

    10 Prijedor area.

    11 Q. Did you give a statement in late 1995 or

    12 autumn 1995 in connection with what you recollect?

    13 A. I was interviewed. I don't know whether I

    14 gave a statement or not, actually.

    15 Q. As far as you know, we went through it,

    16 Exhibit number 5 is the only statement that you recall

    17 giving in connection with your involvement in former

    18 Yugoslavia; correct?

    19 A. If you say so, yes. This, I remember giving

    20 this statement at a later date. That was on another

    21 case.

    22 Q. It's not if I say so, I just don't know. I'm

    23 asking you, if you think you have another statement, by

    24 all means tell us.

    25 JUDGE MAY: I think the witness has given

  60. 1 evidence and Mr. Keegan has confirmed that there is one

    2 statement and that's it.

    3 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

    4 Q. Now, sir -- if I may proceed?

    5 Sir, you testified about a book that you

    6 wrote, and is it fair to say that book was published in

    7 December, or thereabouts, 1993; correct?

    8 A. The book was completed in October 1993, it

    9 was out by the end of that year, formally published, I

    10 think, at the beginning of the following year, 1994.

    11 Q. And the book that you wrote was

    12 professionally done, I mean, in terms of -- it was

    13 depicting your professional experiences and your views

    14 and things that you saw during your tenure in the

    15 former Yugoslavia; correct?

    16 A. It was written faster than I would like to

    17 have written it but, yes, that's right.

    18 Q. It was part professional, part personal;

    19 correct?

    20 A. I'm not sure what that means, but it was an

    21 account of what I had seen in the war, yes, and drew on

    22 a number of secondary sources which I have described to

    23 you. I researched books, documents, and other

    24 newspapers. Talked to colleagues a great deal.

    25 Q. I don't know what "part personal and part

  61. 1 professional" means either. I thought you used it when

    2 you said when you went to visit Dr. Kovacevic, that the

    3 reason you went to visit him was part personal and part

    4 professional?

    5 A. If I said that, fine. Yes. I was curious to

    6 find out --

    7 Q. There is really no question pending, if I

    8 may? I just want to ask him that question, and the

    9 question is: What do you mean when you say "part

    10 personal and part professional"? Thank you.

    11 A. It means that if there was a story to write

    12 about this visit, to try to seek out these three

    13 gentlemen and Professor Koljevic, then I would write

    14 it, but I was also quite curious to know more about

    15 them. They had been introduced to me on a day that was

    16 important to me and I was curious.

    17 Q. From 1994 -- when did you leave Bosnia

    18 completely? In December of 1994, was it?

    19 A. I left Bosnia shortly after the conclusion of

    20 the siege of east Mostar, which would be February 1994,

    21 and I went to live in the United States for some months

    22 and I came back in the spring of 1995.

    23 Q. So is it fair to say from February 1994

    24 through the spring of 1995, you were living in the

    25 United States; correct?

  62. 1 A. I was based in the United States but visiting

    2 Europe.

    3 Q. That's fair. Your part personal/part

    4 professional curiosity about Dr. Kovacevic and others

    5 in connection with the August 5th meeting that you had

    6 with them, during the time of July 19 -- or August 5th,

    7 1992, through February 1995, right before you left the

    8 whole area, were you curious at all to meet him during

    9 that year-and-a-half period?

    10 A. I left the area in February 1994, not '95.

    11 Q. Thank you.

    12 A. Well, it was difficult for me to do so. I

    13 applied, along with many colleagues, to visit the -- it

    14 was then called the Serbian Republic of

    15 Bosnia-Herzegovina and later on Republika Srpska a

    16 number of times, and like many of my colleagues was not

    17 allowed permission by the office of Sonja Karadzic who

    18 was handling press accreditation in Pale at the time.

    19 That was one reason it was difficult to get to

    20 Prijedor. I'm not the only one with that experience.

    21 And the other is that the preoccupation, as my

    22 statement shows, was with Muslim-Croat war in other

    23 parts of the country. I was not in a position or did

    24 not feel in a position to or was not allowed to travel

    25 to Prijedor until after the war had concluded.

  63. 1 Q. Is it fair to say for the period February

    2 1994 through the spring of 1995, you did not have any

    3 desire or feelings to go to visit these people,

    4 including Dr. Kovacevic, back in Prijedor?

    5 A. The war was still on then. I was living in

    6 the States, based in the States, and the occasion did

    7 not arise. I was working in America and also it -- I

    8 don't think I would have been allowed to go, frankly.

    9 I applied twice in Pale to visit and was not given

    10 clearance by Ms. Karadzic's press office.

    11 Q. Sir, did your desire, if you will, to go back

    12 to meet Dr. Kovacevic and others, did that occur, part

    13 professional/part personal, before or after the meeting

    14 that you had with Mr. Keegan in Washington?

    15 A. Oh, after. It occurred as part of an

    16 assignment that I was given by The Guardian at the end

    17 of 1995. This was after the Dayton Agreement -- well,

    18 it was while it was being negotiated -- and the foreign

    19 editor of The Guardian said to me, "Well, you were in

    20 Bosnia all that time before. Why don't you go back and

    21 spend a number of months there and try and tell some of

    22 the untold stories of the war, try and get under the

    23 skin of the war a bit now that it is easier to move

    24 around?"

    25 That resulted in a twelve-part series, and

  64. 1 after discussions with him, we decided that one

    2 dimension of this inquiry would be to go back and to

    3 find the people and to interview them with whom we had

    4 met in Prijedor that unforgettable day. That was the

    5 professional dimension. My personal curiosity that I

    6 mentioned accompanied that assignment. It was agreed

    7 as part of a series which is published and readily

    8 available.

    9 Q. Did you know, sir, following your first

    10 meeting with Mr. Keegan, that he wanted to utilise you

    11 as an expert?

    12 A. I knew that there was a possibility that I

    13 would testify. I wasn't aware in exactly which

    14 capacity. I had had the interview here around the same

    15 time, a little prior, perhaps.

    16 Q. Just so I understand, because there are two

    17 meetings with Mr. Keegan, and I need to just connect it

    18 up for a couple of reasons, and I apologise for

    19 belabouring the point.

    20 Your meeting with Mr. Keegan initially was in

    21 Washington, DC, the first one; the second one was

    22 here at The Hague; correct?

    23 A. Correct.

    24 Q. Did your desire to part personally and part

    25 professionally find Dr. Kovacevic, interview

  65. 1 Dr. Kovacevic, in February of 1996, did that occur

    2 after the first or the second meeting with Mr. Keegan?

    3 A. The assignment to write this series for the

    4 paper followed the second meeting with Mr. Keegan.

    5 Q. Now, isn't it true that during the second

    6 meeting with Mr. Keegan, it was during that meeting

    7 that, in fact, he inquired and asked you to establish

    8 this pattern and wanted you to become a witness, expert

    9 witness, in the Tadic or other related cases?

    10 A. I think it was clear that I was -- might

    11 testify, but I'm afraid I can't help you with the

    12 exact, you know -- I don't think we talked about what

    13 he wanted me -- I mean, he wasn't telling me what he

    14 wanted me to do or anything like that. He was

    15 interviewing me about the war.

    16 Q. I thought we covered it earlier. That's

    17 why -- I'm not as clear on it as I perhaps should be,

    18 and I'm sure you could help us out on that.

    19 You had two meetings with him. Earlier today

    20 you testified that at one meeting you were sought out

    21 and they requested your services to help them to become

    22 an expert witness to establish pattern; correct?

    23 A. I testified in the summer of 1996. By that

    24 time, certainly I was aware of this thing called

    25 "widespread or systematic." I don't know if I was

  66. 1 aware of it when I first came here in 1995. I'm pretty

    2 sure I didn't know anything about these laws and rules.

    3 Q. In fact, you don't know anything about the

    4 laws, and I mean this respectfully, in connection with

    5 the elements, of the accused, et cetera; correct?

    6 A. Excuse me. No, I don't want to say I don't

    7 know anything about the laws.

    8 Q. I appreciate --

    9 A. I have since read up as much as I can. But

    10 when I came to The Hague in the late autumn -- I can

    11 get the date for you easily -- for this first meeting,

    12 not in America with Mr. Keegan, I was pretty clueless

    13 as to Geneva Conventions and so on. I don't think I

    14 had read it then or ...

    15 Q. Did Mr. Keegan at all provide you materials

    16 so that you could become more familiar with what the

    17 Geneva Convention is or the laws in connection with the

    18 various trials that may be proceeding here at the

    19 Tribunal?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. Did he explain to you at all what certain

    22 elements of crimes are, et cetera, at any time?

    23 A. Maybe later on, towards the time I was

    24 testifying, but not at first, so far as I can recall.

    25 I was being interviewed.

  67. 1 Q. And just so we have it clear, because you've

    2 testified on two separate occasions, if not more, the

    3 time, was that the first time you testified in the

    4 Tadic case?

    5 A. The first time I testified before this

    6 Tribunal was in the case of Dusko Tadic in the summer

    7 of 1996. I don't recall the exact date. I think it

    8 was June or July.

    9 Q. In connection with the testimony that you're

    10 giving with Dr. Kovacevic, can you share with us what,

    11 if anything, you reviewed?

    12 A. Sorry?

    13 Q. In connection with the testimony that you're

    14 giving in this matter here, can you testify -- can you

    15 tell us what is it that you reviewed before you

    16 testified here a couple days ago?

    17 A. I read my book, or read bits of it, and I

    18 read through some of the notes, but not in great

    19 detail, I'm afraid.

    20 Q. Did you meet with anyone?

    21 A. I met with Mr. Keegan.

    22 Q. For how long?

    23 A. Not very long. He's been very busy. I've

    24 been here since Saturday.

    25 Q. So with the exception of your notes, is it

  68. 1 fair to say that you didn't review anything else in

    2 connection with the testimony that you were going to

    3 share with us here and are sharing with us currently

    4 relating to Dr. Kovacevic; correct?

    5 A. No -- yes, correct.

    6 Q. Thank you. If I may, I'd like to direct your

    7 attention to August 5th, 1992, which is the first time

    8 that you met Dr. Kovacevic and the first time that you

    9 came to the Prijedor municipality building, okay?

    10 A. Yeah.

    11 Q. Who accompanied you during that first visit?

    12 A. Major Milutinovic from Banja Luka, two film

    13 crews from ITN and their two translators, also two

    14 soldiers from the Bosnian Serb army who took us as far

    15 as Banja Luka, anyway, and a driver.

    16 Q. With respect to Major Milutinovic, was he

    17 dressed in a formal military garb?

    18 A. Yes, he was.

    19 Q. What did that look like?

    20 A. Camouflage fatigues and a hat, sort of like a

    21 pork pie hat, we call them in English. I don't know

    22 what the respectful term is. Not a cap, a hat, with

    23 the insignia on.

    24 Q. How long, sir, was the journey from Belgrade

    25 to Prijedor in terms of hours?

  69. 1 A. Belgrade to Prijedor? From Belgrade to Pale

    2 on the helicopter was, I don't know, an hour, hour and

    3 a half, maybe more; Pale to Banja Luka on the bus via a

    4 place called Bijeljina was the best part of a day, I

    5 wouldn't want to measure it in exact hours; Banja Luka

    6 to Prijedor, little time. Maybe 45 minutes or so.

    7 Q. Now, the time we're talking about, Belgrade

    8 to Pale by helicopter, an hour and a half, Pale to

    9 Banja Luka, and Banja Luka to Prijedor, all occurred on

    10 August 5th, 1992?

    11 A. No.

    12 JUDGE MAY: Well, the witness has given

    13 evidence about that. It was a two-day journey.

    14 MR. OSTOJIC: I recognise that. I just

    15 wanted to point -- get a time reference on that and

    16 make sure that my notes are accurate that it was a

    17 two-day journey.

    18 Q. So it was actually August 4th; correct?

    19 A. Let me try to calculate this. I'll work

    20 backwards, if I may, if the Court will permit? August

    21 5th, we're in the camps. So August 4th, we'd have been

    22 going from Pale to Banja Luka. The day before that,

    23 3rd, we'd have travelled early to Pale and spent the

    24 day in Pale and in bits of Sarajevo, as discussed

    25 before.

  70. 1 Q. Where did you spend the night?

    2 A. In a hotel to which they took us, and I think

    3 it was near Pale somewhere. Somewhere near Sarajevo --

    4 in what is now called Srpska Sarajevo.

    5 Q. So you had a fresh start the next day, August

    6 5th, for your journey through Pale to Banja Luka to

    7 Prijedor; correct?

    8 A. No. The next day would have been August the

    9 4th, and that would been, yes, an early start. From

    10 Pale, I think we had a snack in a place called

    11 Bijeljina, and then through the corridor to Banja

    12 Luka. That's the next day.

    13 Q. Then you spent the night there and the next

    14 day you came on August 5th to Prijedor; correct? I'm

    15 trying to get there, and I apologise that it's taking

    16 long.

    17 A. The next day we got up in Banja Luka, and we

    18 went to Prijedor that morning, yeah.

    19 Q. What time did you arrive in Prijedor that

    20 morning?

    21 A. I can't remember. Quite early on. I mean,

    22 it was quite an early start, as I recall.

    23 Q. Now, sir, yesterday you testified, I believe,

    24 that Dr. Kovacevic was the chairman and the person that

    25 controlled the meeting; do you remember that?

  71. 1 A. He was sitting, as it were, at the head of

    2 the table, and did, well, I'd say most of the talking,

    3 but more than anybody else, anyway.

    4 Q. Do you recall your testimony yesterday in

    5 which you identified him as the "chairman" of the

    6 meeting?

    7 A. Yes. I didn't mean that in a formal sense,

    8 but the meeting seemed to be -- he would speak when he

    9 wished to and -- I say "chairman," but he was running

    10 the meeting, yeah.

    11 Q. Is it fair to say, in your opinion, that he

    12 was running the meeting and "he" being Dr. Kovacevic?

    13 A. He? Yes, I said that Dr. Kovacevic appeared

    14 to be the man who opened the meeting and did most of

    15 the talking.

    16 Q. At any time, sir, did you say in any

    17 statements that were given that "Dr. Stakic chaired the

    18 meeting at the city hall before we went to the camp"?

    19 A. I don't remember writing that because I don't

    20 think he did.

    21 MR. OSTOJIC: May I tender Defence Exhibit

    22 number 6? Again, I must apologise to the court and the

    23 Tribunal. We were unable to obtain the necessary

    24 copies because of a glitch in the photocopy machine

    25 there and there were other counsel attempting to copy,

  72. 1 so it was quite mad. Tomorrow we hope to provide

    2 sufficient copies for everyone, and I apologise again.

    3 Thank you.

    4 May Defendant's Exhibit number 6 be tendered

    5 to the witness, Your Honour?

    6 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, can you describe what

    7 Defendant's Exhibit number 6 is?

    8 A. It's my -- an aide-memoire I wrote after the

    9 interview with Dr. Stakic.

    10 Q. And that was an interview that occurred in

    11 February of 1996; correct?

    12 A. Same day as seeing Dr. Kovacevic.

    13 JUDGE MAY: Isn't that a document which we

    14 already have?

    15 MR. OSTOJIC: I believe it is, Your Honour.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it's Exhibit 56,

    17 Prosecution Exhibit 56.

    18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We already have that.

    19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

    20 JUDGE MAY: There's no need to exhibit it

    21 again.

    22 MR. OSTOJIC: The only reason I do, Your

    23 Honour, respectfully, is only because I wasn't sure if

    24 the exhibits in the closed session would carry on, and

    25 I wasn't sure if the procedure was I would have to

  73. 1 introduce my own exhibits since we were in a closed

    2 session.

    3 JUDGE MAY: We've got the copy.

    4 MR. OSTOJIC: How would the Court like for me

    5 to refer to this document?

    6 JUDGE MAY: I think, to ensure consistency,

    7 Exhibit 56, and D6 will be withdrawn. It will make

    8 life easier.

    9 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. May I proceed?

    10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    11 MR. OSTOJIC:

    12 Q. With respect to Exhibit 56, can you tell us

    13 what that is?

    14 A. I just have. It's my notes written up in my

    15 organisation of the conversation with Dr. Stakic.

    16 Q. And your name appears on the top; correct?

    17 A. Yeah.

    18 Q. Is that the notes that you told us earlier

    19 that you actually made into your computer and placed on

    20 the disk and sent to Mr. Keegan, are those your notes

    21 -- or part of them, I should say?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Now, do you see in that first paragraph on

    24 Exhibit number 56 that you make a reference to the

    25 meeting that you had on or about August 5th, 1992, with

  74. 1 Dr. Stakic?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Sir, isn't it true that if you look at that

    4 document, you, in fact, describe Dr. Stakic as the

    5 person who chaired the meeting on August 5th, 1992?

    6 A. Yes, he was the senior titular official at

    7 the meeting and I suppose was formally in charge. What

    8 I was trying to say yesterday was that he didn't do

    9 most of the talking, he wasn't running the meeting.

    10 Indeed, at one point he tries to make a contribution

    11 and is told to shut up. But he was the senior

    12 official, yes.

    13 Q. You say you suppose he was formally in

    14 charge. What do you mean by that, you suppose he was

    15 formally in charge? Do you know?

    16 A. He was the mayor, and I believe Dr. Kovacevic

    17 was his deputy.

    18 Q. I'm familiar with the titles, sir. But who

    19 was in charge of the meeting on August 5th, 1992? You

    20 shared with us what you thought it was yesterday, and

    21 I'm asking you, in light of Exhibit 56, who, as you sit

    22 here now, who you thought it was?

    23 A. Well, the senior official was Dr. Stakic.

    24 The man doing the bulk of the talking was

    25 Dr. Kovacevic.

  75. 1 Q. Well, show the Court where you reference him

    2 as "the senior man" on Exhibit 56.

    3 A. Sorry?

    4 Q. You said that you felt that he was the senior

    5 official. Show me where you write "senior

    6 official" --

    7 A. Well, I say "chaired the meeting."

    8 Q. So was it Dr. Stakic who chaired the meeting

    9 or was it Dr. Kovacevic who chaired the meeting?

    10 A. I'll answer you like this: I'll say

    11 Dr. Stakic was the titular man in authority, he was the

    12 mayor, Dr. Kovacevic was his deputy and was doing the

    13 talking. He was the man who spoke when he wanted to.

    14 He sat in the middle at the head table.

    15 Q. Tell me, sir, I think you did earlier -- and

    16 I'm doing it for a reason, Your Honour, so I'd like

    17 some latitude on it. Is it your testimony that

    18 Dr. Kovacevic was the man in control of the meeting?

    19 A. The main presence at the meeting, yes.

    20 Q. Let me show what we're going to mark -- or

    21 has previously been marked, I believe, as Exhibit 55,

    22 and that is the statement that's typed regarding

    23 Dr. Kovacevic in the meeting in 1996. I just want to

    24 make sure that it's that number. I believe it is

    25 but ...

  76. 1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct, Exhibit

    2 55.

    3 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. May I proceed?

    4 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, can you describe for us what

    5 Exhibit 55 is?

    6 A. Yeah. These are notes that I made to myself

    7 into the computer, as previously discussed, in Zagreb

    8 the day, the evening after seeing the two gentlemen in

    9 Prijedor.

    10 Q. And those are the same notes as the

    11 Dr. Stakic notes that you tendered to Mr. Keegan;

    12 correct?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Do you see a reference in the first paragraph

    15 there with respect to who was -- or who "assumed

    16 control" of the meeting?

    17 A. Sorry. Where are we?

    18 Q. On the fourth line down where it starts:

    19 Dr. Sakic (sic), and then it has a parenthesis, QV.

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Who does it say in that document was the

    22 person who "assumed control" of the meeting?

    23 A. He took over from Dr. Arsic when -- sorry,

    24 from Colonel Arsic where Colonel Arsic gestured to his

    25 right to say, "Well, if you want to go to Omarska, you

  77. 1 have to speak to these gentlemen," and I think, as I

    2 testified yesterday, Mr. Stakic came next.

    3 Q. Do you see anywhere in Exhibit 55 whether or

    4 not you state that Dr. Kovacevic was the chair of the

    5 meeting on August 5th, 1992?

    6 A. No, I don't. I say that Mr. Stakic then

    7 passed our request on to Dr. Kovacevic for his

    8 handling.

    9 Q. Sir, do you see on Exhibit number 55 anywhere

    10 that you state that Dr. Kovacevic was in control of the

    11 meeting on August 5th, 1992?

    12 A. No, and I'm not saying "in control of," I'm

    13 saying doing most of the talking at, the main presence

    14 at.

    15 Q. Just so we're clear and I appreciate that.

    16 So he wasn't in control and he wasn't the chairman, he

    17 was doing most of the talking; right?

    18 A. Yes, and when --

    19 Q. That's all --

    20 A. -- the others wanted to interrupt him, he

    21 didn't let them --

    22 Q. We heard about that yesterday, and we hope to

    23 get to it again.

    24 A. Fine, do -- yeah, we will.

    25 Q. Thank you. As you sit here, do you know who

  78. 1 the main person was or who was the person who was in

    2 control or in charge of the meeting?

    3 A. I've said this. Mr. Stakic was clearly the

    4 senior civilian official - he made a long presentation;

    5 Colonel Arsic was the main military man; and

    6 Dr. Kovacevic did most of the talking, sat in the

    7 middle; and between them, I don't say anyone had sole

    8 control of the meeting.

    9 Q. I'm not asking you for sole control, sir.

    10 A. They were all talking. Mr. Kovacevic talked

    11 most.

    12 Q. Now, do you remember giving testimony in the

    13 Tadic case in 1996 in connection with particularly

    14 August 5th, 1992, and the meeting involving

    15 Dr. Kovacevic?

    16 A. I don't remember it well, but I'm sure I'd

    17 have -- I'm sure I'd have mentioned it.

    18 Q. If I may, on page -- if I may just have a

    19 moment to find the page? 1440, if I may direct the

    20 Court's and the Prosecutor's attention to it. Sir, do

    21 you recall giving -- may I proceed? I apologise.

    22 Do you recall giving the following testimony

    23 in connection with the meeting taking place on August

    24 5th, 1995 -- 1992, thank you, I'm sorry, regarding

    25 Dr. Kovacevic, and I'm going to quote a question that

  79. 1 begins on line 8, counsel, and then the answer on line

    2 9 up to 13, unless the Court wishes us to read the

    3 prior page and the subsequent data. But for our

    4 purposes, I think it would be limited to this four-line

    5 or five-line area.

    6 Sir, do you remember being asked this

    7 question: "Did Dr. Milomir Stakic then enter into the

    8 discussion with you? Answer: Yes. Stakic came in

    9 briefly and made his main speech later on but, as it

    10 transpired, the people to whom we would appropriately

    11 apply to go to Omarska, who were in charge of

    12 Omarska ergo" -- strike that, Your Honour. I'm

    13 actually -- "who were in charge of Omarska ergo and the

    14 authority to take us there were indeed sitting in the

    15 room."

    16 Do you recall giving that testimony?

    17 A. Well, I recall talking about it when I was

    18 testifying, but without -- I don't -- I mean, the exact

    19 words, frankly, no.

    20 MR. OSTOJIC: I apologise. I want to direct

    21 the Court's attention to 1439 and not 1440,

    22 specifically line 10 through line 13. I was reading

    23 off my notes and looking at the page improperly. So if

    24 I can once again focus on this and look at page 1439,

    25 which specifically discusses who began the meeting and

  80. 1 the issue that I'm trying to convey here. Thank you,

    2 Your Honour, and I apologise. 1439. May I proceed?

    3 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    4 MR. OSTOJIC:

    5 Q. Line 10: "Who began the meeting for that

    6 group? Answer: The meeting was begun -- well, as it

    7 were, the pleasantries were begun by the police chief,

    8 Mr. Drljaca, but the main -- sort of the man who kicked

    9 off the meeting, as it were, was Colonel Arsic of the

    10 military."

    11 Do you remember giving that testimony, sir,

    12 in the Tadic case?

    13 A. I don't remember that actual line, but, yes.

    14 The pleasantries, or the introductory remarks as I

    15 called them yesterday, went, and I think this is right,

    16 in this order: Drljaca first downstairs when we

    17 arrived and on the stairs; then, as we saw yesterday,

    18 Kovacevic follows; Stakic I think then says something;

    19 and then we turn to the main body of the meeting, or at

    20 least the lengthy bits during which the conversations

    21 and the toeing and froing about Manjaca and Omarska and

    22 where we want to go and where we could go, where we

    23 couldn't go, that was with Colonel Arsic. So I'm going

    24 to call them the introductory remarks and/or

    25 pleasantries, then the main body of the meeting, if

  81. 1 that's all right with you?

    2 MR. OSTOJIC: May I have a moment, Your

    3 Honour? Thank you.

    4 Q. Sir, you said just now "yesterday, as we saw

    5 in the meeting." The tape that we saw yesterday, was

    6 that a tape that taped the beginning part of the

    7 meeting all the way through the end of the meeting of

    8 this August 5th, 1992 meeting with Dr. Kovacevic and

    9 others?

    10 A. Oh, no, no, no.

    11 Q. Did the meeting -- was the meeting taped at

    12 the very outset when the meeting started; is that when

    13 it started? The taping, the actual taping of the

    14 meeting?

    15 A. The film made by the ITN. That was towards

    16 the top of the meeting, yes.

    17 Q. But it wasn't the beginning of the meeting;

    18 correct?

    19 A. If it wasn't the beginning, it was fairly

    20 close in to the beginning. I mean, it was within five

    21 or ten minutes of the beginning.

    22 Q. When's the first time that you viewed that

    23 tape?

    24 A. That particular tape?

    25 Q. That particular tape.

  82. 1 A. This weekend -- yesterday, I think.

    2 Q. So is it fair to say that for six years, you

    3 haven't viewed that particular tape; correct?

    4 A. I saw some stuff in Omarska and some stuff in

    5 Trnopolje when I was testifying in the Tadic case. I

    6 don't think I saw that bit of tape, no, at least I

    7 don't recall it anyway.

    8 Q. Your testimony is appearing here. It says:

    9 "If it wasn't the beginning, it was fairly close to in

    10 the beginning. I mean, it was within five or ten

    11 minutes of the beginning."

    12 Can you help me out and tell me whether it

    13 was five or ten minutes, or you just don't know?

    14 A. I'm afraid I can't within that kind of time

    15 frame, no.

    16 Q. So for that five- or ten-minute period, we

    17 don't have any tapes to see who started the meeting or

    18 what was said for that five- to ten-minute period;

    19 correct?

    20 A. I don't know what tapes you have or haven't

    21 got. My best recollection, and I'll do my best now, is

    22 that we were greeted downstairs by Mr. Drljaca and he

    23 escorted us up, and I think the others were already in

    24 the room. If not, they came in soon after. But as

    25 regards five to ten minutes, I'm afraid I can't help

  83. 1 you.

    2 Q. Thank you.

    3 A. It's the top of the meeting. It's what I've

    4 been calling the opening remarks.

    5 Q. I know, but it may be relevant for other

    6 reasons. Thank you.

    7 Sir, I'm a little confused now with respect

    8 to the August 5th, 1995. We've recognised that you

    9 identified various people as being, at one point,

    10 "chairman," "in control of," and I think perhaps

    11 stating this with Colonel Arsic being "the main, sort

    12 of, person."

    13 Who, in your opinion, having been an expert,

    14 do you think, based on all that data, do you think was

    15 in charge of that meeting?

    16 A. 1992, you mean?

    17 Q. Yes, that's the meeting, yes, we're referring

    18 to.

    19 A. Well, I'm trying to sort of -- I will say no

    20 one was actually in charge of the whole thing, and I'll

    21 have to repeat myself, if the Court will allow me.

    22 Dr. Stakic was introduced to us as the senior

    23 official on the civilian side. He was, if you like,

    24 the formal chairman. Doing the running, the man to

    25 whom people referred at the end of their various

  84. 1 contributions, was Dr. Kovacevic. If you want to ask

    2 me who was in sole command of the meeting, I'm afraid I

    3 have no real answer to that, and I would say none of

    4 them. They were all doing their own thing or looking

    5 after their own departments in their own way.

    6 Q. Thank you. Now --

    7 JUDGE MAY: We're not going to have any more

    8 questions on that topic. No doubt you're going to move

    9 on. In fact, it's 5.00. So we will adjourn.

    10 How much more do you have for this witness,

    11 do you think, Mr. Ostojic?

    12 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm very cognisant, we are very

    13 cognisant of the time element and the inconvenience

    14 this may bring to Mr. Vulliamy, and I say that very,

    15 very sincerely. However, a point, when we discussed

    16 the medical doctor, from our prior session and our

    17 notes confirmed one thing, and when I asked

    18 Mr. Vulliamy to read that particular portion with

    19 respect to the Muslim doctor in the Trnopolje camp, he

    20 read something slightly different.

    21 I haven't caucused with the balance of the

    22 Defence team, and I'm uncertain as to how complicated

    23 our notes and how possibly incorrect our notes might be

    24 until we've had an opportunity to review the entire

    25 transcript from this morning's session, and it may go

  85. 1 on, unfortunately, longer than tomorrow.

    2 JUDGE MAY: I'm sure you will have the time

    3 constraints in mind, and if you can finish tomorrow, so

    4 much the better. If need be, no doubt we could sit a

    5 little longer than we intended.

    6 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll try my best, Your Honour.

    7 Thank you.

    8 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    9 5.00 p.m., to be reconvened on

    10 Friday, the 17th day of July, 1998,

    11 at 9.00 a.m.