1. 1 Friday, 17th July, 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

    7 Case number IT-97-24-T, the Prosecutor versus Milan

    8 Kovacevic.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

    10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, good morning, Your

    11 Honours.

    12 MR. KEEGAN: Sorry, Your Honours, if I could,

    13 before counsel begins. I apologise.

    14 We would like to raise an objection, Your

    15 Honour. We refrained from objecting on several

    16 occasions yesterday for two primary reasons: One is,

    17 of course, we didn't believe that the conduct of the

    18 questioning would create issues with the Judges such as

    19 you might be concerned about with juries, and also

    20 because we did not know the length of the

    21 cross-examination, had it concluded yesterday, we would

    22 never have raised the issue, but because counsel has

    23 indicated that cross-examination may, in fact, even go

    24 beyond today, we do feel the need to raise an objection

    25 to the nature of the conduct of the cross-examination.

  2. 1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, Mr. Keegan, can you

    2 raise it quickly, please.

    3 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour.

    4 JUDGE MAY: Bearing in mind that we are the

    5 Judges of facts and law, and it is for us to decide

    6 about the conduct of cross-examination. Can you put

    7 your point, as it were, in a sentence?

    8 MR. KEEGAN: I can, Your Honour. We believe

    9 that counsel is engaged in a pattern of misstatement of

    10 evidence and facts and it is resulting in unfair

    11 questions to the witness, and we believe the witness is

    12 entitled to professional and fair questioning, and we

    13 believe that has not been the case, and it was a

    14 pattern yesterday. As I said, we would not have

    15 objected had it ended yesterday, but since it's going

    16 to continue for we don't know how long, we believe it

    17 is an appropriate objection.

    18 JUDGE MAY: I think we will regard that as a shot

    19 across the bows. Do you follow? We won't rule on it

    20 at the moment, but they are minded to object if you

    21 misstate the evidence. But it is for us, of course, to

    22 determine whether there is misstatement. So far you

    23 haven't been stopped, Mr. Ostojic, although there has

    24 been considerable repetition. We recognise these are

    25 important issues for the Defence, therefore you have

  3. 1 been granted some latitude. But if you could

    2 concentrate, as it were, on the particular issues, not

    3 repeat them. If there is any misstatement of the

    4 evidence, no doubt the Prosecution can point that out,

    5 but I am sure you will try and avoid it, and I think it

    6 would be in everybody's interests -- I don't want to

    7 put you under pressure -- but it would be in

    8 everybody's interests if we could complete this witness

    9 today.

    10 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. As I stated

    11 yesterday, we certainly will endeavour to complete

    12 Mr. Vulliamy today, but I must reply, if the Court

    13 permits, to the comments, because I certainly resent

    14 counsel using the word pattern which is a sensitive

    15 issue here, and trying to impugn that on my conduct

    16 here. If he could have, if he thought that it was so

    17 inappropriate, I think he should have raised it

    18 yesterday. I think it is inappropriate for him to use

    19 that kind of language when it is not my conduct that

    20 should be called in question on my questioning. Quite

    21 frankly from the answers elicited from this witness and

    22 the timing of the statements, it's not my conduct that

    23 should be called in question but the conduct of the

    24 Prosecution.

    25 JUDGE MAY: Well, these are matters for us to

  4. 1 rule on. Now, it would be better if we moved on.

    2 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour. If I

    3 may proceed.


    5 (Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic)

    6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vulliamy. How are you?

    7 A. Good morning, fine.

    8 Q. Yesterday we were discussing the meeting of

    9 August 5th, 1992, with you and various people in the

    10 municipal building. Do you recall that?

    11 A. Yes, I do.

    12 Q. Specifically, sir, I want to direct your

    13 attention to your testimony which was elicited through

    14 the Prosecutor's Office, and if I may be permitted to

    15 quote it so we have it in the proper context, it's at

    16 10.09.32, and it states question by Mr. Keegan:

    17 Mr. Vulliamy: During this meeting, which is the

    18 meeting I represent to you as August 5th, 1992. Did

    19 you form an opinion who was in charge of the meeting,

    20 who was running the meeting? And you're giving the

    21 answer: We covered the control issue. It's something

    22 in the answer that I am seeking to cross-examine on,

    23 other than that issue. The answer at 10.09.42

    24 seconds: "Well, thus far it seemed that the man doing

    25 most of the talking up until this point, if you like,

  5. 1 the chairman of the meeting, or at least he was the one

    2 who was making the most pertinent remarks, and I found

    3 them interesting remarks because even before we had

    4 asked a question, we were talking about concentration

    5 camps and now he was defining what we were about to see

    6 is not a concentration camp but transit camps and

    7 talking about intelligence failure to identify the Nazi

    8 camps in the forties. I mean, I thought we were in the

    9 domain." And then you finally answer the last

    10 sentence: "Sorry. To answer your question,

    11 Mr. Kovacevic is the answer." Quote, unquote.

    12 So you answered a question that Mr. Kovacevic

    13 was in charge of the meeting. We covered that

    14 yesterday. But within this, sir, I was a little

    15 perplexed, and you state here and you seem to imply,

    16 and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that before the

    17 meeting even started, Dr. Kovacevic was in denial about

    18 either the transit centres or the concentration camps,

    19 generally that issue. Is that your testimony?

    20 A. Those were his opening remarks, and I

    21 remember finding them interesting, yes.

    22 Q. Now, I'd like, with the Court's permission,

    23 to direct our attention to Exhibit 48(B). For the

    24 record, that is the transcript of the tape that

    25 Mr. Keegan introduced. And if I may also ask that the

  6. 1 Exhibit be tendered to the witness?

    2 And Mr. Vulliamy, if you can take an

    3 opportunity or a moment to look at Exhibit 48(B) and

    4 just let me know when you're complete so that I can

    5 proceed.

    6 A. Sure. Fine.

    7 Q. Thank you. Sir, the first four pages of

    8 Exhibit 48(B) are what purports to be a translation of

    9 the excerpt of the tape that we viewed yesterday which

    10 was identified as Exhibit 48, does it not, or 48A, it

    11 may have been, does it not?

    12 A. It seems to be, yes, to the best of my

    13 recollection, these are the areas covered on the tape,

    14 yeah.

    15 Q. Yesterday you were kind enough to tell us

    16 that before the tape started rolling on Dr. Kovacevic,

    17 before we actually saw him, there was an interval of

    18 five to ten minutes of that tape; do you remember that?

    19 A. As I said, I wasn't sure exactly how long,

    20 but we had come into the building, gone up the stairs,

    21 made some introductions. I can't recall how many

    22 minutes it was before the tape started rolling.

    23 Q. The record will bear it out. Whatever you

    24 said, you said yesterday, and we're not going to debate

    25 it here today. If you look at the first sentence here,

  7. 1 other than the caption, the foreign reporter in English

    2 states that the second promise was that we could see

    3 Omarska and Trnopolje. Do you see that?

    4 A. Yes, I do.

    5 Q. Where's the first promise? We don't see it

    6 in these first four pages, right? Because it's cut

    7 off.

    8 A. I don't recall what the first promise was.

    9 Q. Right. And it was the first promise that we

    10 don't recall that's probably within that time period

    11 that I suggest you told us yesterday was five to ten

    12 minutes; correct?

    13 A. I don't know. I expect so. I don't know.

    14 Q. Okay. That's fair. Now, if we look through

    15 the body of page 1, and we'll try to take this one step

    16 at a time, can you tell this Court how many times the

    17 tape was cut or there wasn't full usage of the tape,

    18 footage, other than the first five to ten minutes that

    19 I believe you testified to yesterday. Just looking at

    20 this first page, can you tell us how many times?

    21 A. Well, I'm afraid I can't. I don't know about

    22 cuts in the tape --

    23 Q. I suggest that you look on line 5.

    24 A. "We'd be happy to do that this afternoon."

    25 Q. What does it say after the word "this

  8. 1 afternoon"?

    2 A. "Tape cut."

    3 Q. Is that significant at all?

    4 A. I honestly don't know.

    5 Q. It seems from reading this and I'm not a

    6 journalist or a TV reporter or producer, but when it

    7 says tape cut, what does it mean to you?

    8 A. It means the cameraman stopped filming.

    9 Q. Does it tell us here on this exhibit 48(B)

    10 how long he stopped filming?

    11 A. It doesn't appear to, no.

    12 Q. You were at the meeting. How long did he

    13 stop filming; do you know?

    14 A. Sorry?

    15 Q. How long did the cameraman stop filming at

    16 this point?

    17 A. I don't know.

    18 Q. What I need to know, though, if you can

    19 recall at this point, did Colonel Arsic speak already?

    20 Did Dr. Stakic speak already before this first cut?

    21 A. To the best of my recollection, I don't think

    22 so. Mr. Drljaca had certainly greeted us. I don't

    23 recall whether either Mr. Arsic or Mr. Stakic had

    24 spoken, but I am certain that the bulk of their

    25 contributions followed this.

  9. 1 Q. I would think so too. Now, when's the next

    2 time that the tape was cut?

    3 A. Well, according to this bit of paper I have

    4 in front of me, the next -- it says "Tape cut" at the

    5 end of the next line after the words "Television

    6 station, IT."

    7 Q. It's cut again, right? It's once again cut;

    8 correct?

    9 A. I don't know, but it says tape cut here.

    10 Q. You prefaced your answer by according to this

    11 document. Is there any other document that you know

    12 that exists that could help us flesh this out other

    13 than Prosecutor's Exhibit 48 B?

    14 A. As to what -- as to how the tape and when the

    15 tape was cut?

    16 Q. Exactly.

    17 A. I don't know. The tapes, I suppose.

    18 Q. Was there any reason we should doubt that

    19 this was accurate, tape 48 B, that the tape was

    20 actually cut on these two specific instances?

    21 A. I'm not ITN and I don't know when they were

    22 cutting their tapes or for how long. I wasn't

    23 following or directing the cameraman, so it's difficult

    24 for me to answer in a way that -- in a way that I can

    25 be confident of the accuracy. I've got a bit of paper

  10. 1 and it tells me where the tape is cut but I don't know

    2 for how long or why or what. That's something that is

    3 not my province.

    4 Q. When you say province, is it fair to say that

    5 it's not within your area of expertise?

    6 A. No. I would say that -- because I was there

    7 representing a newspaper and my job is to -- well, my

    8 job was to record the events in my book and in my

    9 memory, not to make a film. These people are making a

    10 film, and this thing tells me when the tape is cut.

    11 But I'm not in a position to give accurate information

    12 as to how long it was cut for or anything like that.

    13 Q. Well, you were there and that's why I'm

    14 asking. You're presented as a witness. This exhibit

    15 was introduced. You discussed it. So I didn't mean to

    16 infer that you were the producer or the director or the

    17 man actually filming. What I need to know, since you

    18 testified just moments ago that after the first tape

    19 cut, it was at that point that Colonel Arsic point and

    20 that Dr. Stakic spoke, and yet there's another --

    21 MR. KEEGAN: I will object. That is a

    22 misrepresentation of the witness's answer. He did not

    23 say that.

    24 JUDGE MAY: He said that he didn't recall,

    25 but he thought that the bulk of the answer came later.

  11. 1 Yes. I wonder how much further we're going to get on

    2 this business about cutting the tape. Now, I recognise

    3 that there is no other witness that you can ask about

    4 it, but this witness didn't produce the tape, he wasn't

    5 the cameraman. He was there, so, of course, you can

    6 ask him about the interview and ask him about who was

    7 speaking and his recollection, but the actual

    8 technicalities are clearly not within his province.

    9 MR. OSTOJIC: I will, Your Honour, but I do

    10 have some questions that I think it is my obligation to

    11 ask that are, I believe, are extremely important

    12 relating to the tape and the introduction of the tape

    13 and the manner that it was presented and introduced

    14 into evidence here, so if I may be permitted just a few

    15 more minutes to go into it. Thank you.

    16 Q. Sir, if you look at the first four pages of

    17 this translated excerpt of the tape that we saw which

    18 started with Dr. Kovacevic speaking at the meeting, can

    19 you tell me how many times the tape was cut within that

    20 four-page segment? I counted six, sir. Can you count

    21 it for us? Just let me know what it is?

    22 A. Well, I can't tell you how many times the

    23 tape was cut, but I can tell you how many times it says

    24 tape cut on these bits of paper.

    25 Q. Just for clarification, is there any reason

  12. 1 we should doubt that, what's on this paper?

    2 A. I haven't seen all the tapes. This is a

    3 translation of -- which, as I recall, corresponds with

    4 the tapes, although I'm not listening and reading at

    5 the same time, but what I'm going to do now,

    6 endeavouring to answer your question, is to count the

    7 number of times it says "Tape cut" and to see if we

    8 agree.

    9 Q. Thank you.

    10 A. Actually, I count seven on the first four

    11 pages.

    12 Q. You just corrected me on it. It is seven,

    13 thank you. There's seven tape cuts on this four-page

    14 document; correct?

    15 A. As I -- it says "Tape cut" seven times on the

    16 bit of paper in front of me.

    17 Q. Now, sir, I want to talk about the issue that

    18 we raised in your testimony the other day at 10.09.32

    19 through 10.10.20 that we introduced before we got the

    20 exhibit so that we could discuss it somewhat. If you

    21 look, sir, the first time that Kovacevic raises the

    22 issue that you claim he started to deny before the

    23 meeting even began and that he started to deny the

    24 concentration camps almost immediately, can you tell me

    25 whether or not it appears on page 2, and if I may

  13. 1 direct the witness, on the lower portion of page 2? It

    2 says Kovacevic, BCS, if I may just assist?

    3 A. I think you're referring to the bit where it

    4 says interpreter, English article, saying they are

    5 concentration camps, not only Omarska and Trnopolje,

    6 but a list of about -- Kovacevic, BCS; "let me finish,

    7 first of all we know very well that." Is that the bit

    8 you are talking about?

    9 Q. If you could just continue, "first of all we

    10 know very well" --

    11 A. "We know very well what concentration camps

    12 are. Interpreter English; first of all we know very

    13 well what are the concentration camps." Yes, I see

    14 that.

    15 Q. Immediately preceding that section where

    16 Dr. Kovacevic mentions concentration camps, and I

    17 submit to you that your testimony with Mr. Keegan

    18 seemed to suggest, and I may be wrong, that

    19 Dr. Kovacevic, in light of your testimony today,

    20 started the meeting with concentration camps and that

    21 issue. Do you see that immediately before that, there

    22 is "Tape cut"? Do you see that?

    23 A. Yes, I do see that.

    24 Q. So wouldn't it be fair that really, as you

    25 sit here now today, having all these people testify --

  14. 1 or the people gave their speeches, as you called them,

    2 at one point or introductory comments, we don't have

    3 that covered, but yet you recall, as you sit here six

    4 years later that Dr. Kovacevic started the meeting in

    5 denial?

    6 A. I didn't use the term "in denial."

    7 Q. I know you didn't.

    8 A. That's yours. What I have testified to and

    9 what my notes contain and what I testify to again is

    10 that during these first remarks or opening remarks,

    11 whatever we're calling them, the subject of

    12 concentration camps was discussed, both in terms of

    13 what is here, article saying they are concentration

    14 camps, that I think is articles about Omarska and

    15 Trnopolje, and Dr. Kovacevic's observations about how

    16 his people had, as I recall he puts it, "passed through

    17 concentration camps," and that how, I'm quoting from

    18 the bit of paper, "We know this better than the English

    19 people."

    20 Q. Thank you. Sir, on July 15th, 1998, a couple

    21 days ago, while Mr. Keegan was asking you at 10. --

    22 five after ten and 23 seconds, you stated, and I quote,

    23 that the August 5th, 1992 meeting was, quote, "a very

    24 long meeting." Do you recall that testimony?

    25 A. Yes, it lasted --

  15. 1 Q. Let me be permitted to ask you a following

    2 question. How long was the meeting, because I don't

    3 think we actually established that?

    4 A. I wouldn't want to put an exact time on it,

    5 but it was long enough for us to have a lengthy debate

    6 about whether we were going to Manjaca or not, for us

    7 to insist that we wanted to go to Omarska, to watch a

    8 video, to look at a map, and to go round the houses

    9 quite a bit as regards this question of Omarska,

    10 Manjaca, our safety and security, and the places that

    11 Dr. Karadzic had promised we could see. I don't

    12 know exactly how long. It started early to mid

    13 morning, and by the time we got to Omarska, it was

    14 lunch time, but I wouldn't want to put a time on it.

    15 Q. What is mid morning to you, sir?

    16 A. Mid morning is half past nine, ten o'clock.

    17 Q. What I really want to know, I don't want it

    18 exact because it's six years later, very difficult to

    19 recollect facts six years later and I'm sure we all

    20 understand that, give me your best estimate as an

    21 expert witness being a participant, if you will, at

    22 this meeting, how long was the meeting? Twenty

    23 minutes? Ten minutes? Thirty minutes?

    24 A. Longer than any of those.

    25 Q. Well, give me an idea since apparently you

  16. 1 know.

    2 A. Well, I would say about -- about an hour and

    3 a half perhaps? You say my best estimate. I mean,

    4 that is an estimate. That is a guesstimate. I'm

    5 saying on oath that I don't know exactly how long that

    6 meeting lasted. It lasted long enough to have all of

    7 those round robin conversations during which we got

    8 impatient with what seemed to be filibustering, and it

    9 was long enough to get impatient.

    10 Q. How do you define filibuster?

    11 A. In this instance, I mean that Dr. Karadzic's

    12 promise was that we would see Omarska and this seemed

    13 to be running into some difficulties at this stage.

    14 Q. I really truly meant somewhat, and I

    15 apologise for saying it, but the definition for the

    16 word filibuster, the exchange. I'm just asking you

    17 what your best estimate was for the meeting. You said

    18 an hour and a half, and permit me to proceed. How long

    19 was the tape that we viewed on the meeting with

    20 Dr. Kovacevic that was --

    21 JUDGE MAY: Well, the witness hasn't

    22 estimated the length of the tape. That's a matter for

    23 us.

    24 MR. OSTOJIC:

    25 Q. Sir, to the best of your recollection, did

  17. 1 the ITN cameraman and Penny Marshall and yourself, did

    2 you note whether or not the entire meeting was being

    3 filmed, the meeting of August 5th, 1992?

    4 A. Well, it's a subject -- it's a question

    5 better directed at them than me, but I would be

    6 surprised if they filmed the whole length of the

    7 meeting. I shouldn't think they did.

    8 Q. Now, were you actually in this meeting --

    9 this was an important meeting for you as a journalist;

    10 correct, or foreign correspondent?

    11 A. Yes, it was.

    12 Q. And you were paying attention throughout the

    13 entire meeting; correct?

    14 A. Not all of it, I must admit. I was getting

    15 frustrated and quite bored by the round and round robin

    16 of whether we could or could not go to Manjaca and

    17 Omarska and our security, so, no, I have to admit, my

    18 attention drifted from time to time.

    19 Q. Sir, do you have a recollection, on August

    20 5th, 1992, when people were discussing at the municipal

    21 building issues with the foreign correspondents, that

    22 you lifted your chair and turned your back to the

    23 participants and folded your arms just like you're

    24 folding them now and completely ignored them for a

    25 period of time?

  18. 1 A. Do I recall doing that?

    2 Q. Yes.

    3 A. No, but I might have done.

    4 Q. Thank you.

    5 And, sir, isn't it true that you actually did

    6 that also during the showing of this videotape that you

    7 stated Dr. Kovacevic and others introduced to the

    8 newsmen?

    9 A. That I turned my back --

    10 Q. Turned your back to him, correct?

    11 A. No, I think I -- I've got notes which are

    12 quite similar to what's on the video taken as he was

    13 talking. I was writing down what he was saying some of

    14 the time. If I turned my back on him, then -- no, I

    15 don't think I did.

    16 Q. If we may, sir, direct your attention to your

    17 three-page note or notes of the August 5th, 1992

    18 meeting?

    19 I believe everyone has that, Your Honour,

    20 based upon our conversation yesterday.

    21 JUDGE MAY: Are these the hand-written notes,

    22 Mr. Ostojic?

    23 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour, they are.

    24 JUDGE MAY: Exhibit 57; is that right?

    25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Exhibit 57.

  19. 1 MR. OSTOJIC: Fifty-seven was it, Your

    2 Honour? Thank you.

    3 Your Honour, at this point I would like to

    4 allow us to introduce into the record that portion that

    5 was read, involving Exhibit No. 57, to us yesterday

    6 morning so that it be part of the record during the

    7 testimony of Mr. Vulliamy.

    8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, you can put that.

    9 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

    10 Q. Now, Mr. Vulliamy, a quick question: An hour

    11 and a half or so meeting, you have how many pages of

    12 notes from that meeting?

    13 A. Only three.

    14 Q. Why do you say "Only three." Do you expect

    15 more for an hour and a half meeting?

    16 A. I saw no purpose in writing down the long

    17 round robin about where we should or shouldn't go, what

    18 our security was. I mean, we were repeating ourselves

    19 all over again, and I think I got down the gist of the

    20 fact that these people saw some uprising going on in

    21 their area, it was getting repetitive, and as I've

    22 said, I was getting impatient, wanted to get on, and we

    23 weren't getting on.

    24 Q. You were becoming impatient because you were

    25 sent and you had this list that you wanted to try to

  20. 1 uncover or see for yourself certain centres or camps,

    2 as you've called them; correct?

    3 A. I was getting impatient because allegations

    4 had been published in my paper and elsewhere about

    5 Omarska, also Trnopolje, and others; and as I've

    6 already testified, Dr. Karadzic invited, challenged,

    7 asked to come and see for ourselves, and that's what we

    8 had come to do. I wanted to get on and do that.

    9 Q. With respect to Exhibit number 57, if you

    10 could look at that, please?

    11 A. Yeah.

    12 Q. Now, the first page on the first line, you

    13 wrote, I believe, chief of police, and after that, what

    14 do you write?

    15 A. Komandant.

    16 Q. Is that an English word?

    17 A. No, I can only presume that's the word that

    18 was used.

    19 Q. Did you ask what that meant?

    20 A. I don't remember.

    21 Q. If you look, sir, at this three-page document

    22 from your notes of the meeting, approximately being an

    23 hour and a half, et cetera, it looks to as that

    24 Dr. Stakic, if I have it correctly, starts to speak at

    25 the second half of page 1; correct?

  21. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. And he proceeds to continue and you're taking

    3 notes down for Dr. Stakic through the entirety of page

    4 2; correct?

    5 A. Yes, that's right.

    6 Q. So far Dr. Stakic, a page and a half; right?

    7 A. Yup.

    8 Q. Now, Dr. Stakic apparently continues to have

    9 notes written by you on page 3 of 3, of Exhibit 57?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Now, I note in the first page, if we could

    12 jump back there, when the person that you were taking

    13 notes of, you would write his name on the actual line

    14 opposed to on the side -- do you see that?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. -- so you'd write his name as a title almost,

    17 and then beneath it you would start describing for us

    18 what it was that that person may or may not have said;

    19 correct?

    20 A. Yup.

    21 Q. And similarly you did that for Dr. Stakic;

    22 correct?

    23 A. Yup.

    24 Q. And let's flip because we know Dr. Stakic is

    25 the next page and a half. Three of three. Now, do you

  22. 1 see Dr. Kovacevic's name on the right-hand side or the

    2 left-hand side, I apologise, of this document, in the

    3 centre of the page?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Do you see an arrow that follows from the

    6 line or from the name "Dr. Kovacevic" with an arrow

    7 down to the last five sentences of page 3 of Exhibit

    8 57?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Are the last five lines attributed to

    11 Dr. Kovacevic or Dr. Stakic?

    12 A. The last -- Dr. Kovacevic comes in "We are

    13 trying to stop," that's marked with a line, and he goes

    14 on down to the end.

    15 Q. But you didn't at this point put

    16 Dr. Kovacevic on the line, you put his name on the

    17 side; would that be fair?

    18 A. Yes, it's on the side.

    19 Q. Now, sir, yesterday you were kind enough to

    20 clarify an issue for me, and I appreciate it, on the

    21 control, and we spent some time on it, I understand ad

    22 nauseam, or somewhat ad nauseam on that point, but then

    23 you added an interesting thing and you talked about

    24 gesture, and there was some mention of it and actually

    25 probably a great deal of attention put to a gesture

  23. 1 that Dr. Kovacevic made during the August 5th, 1992

    2 meeting. Remember that?

    3 A. I don't remember a great deal of attention

    4 being drawn to it. There was a gesture, yes.

    5 Q. I apologise for the interruption. Can you

    6 show me on Exhibit 57 where you make mention of the

    7 fact that Dr. Kovacevic made this gesture with his

    8 hand?

    9 A. No, I make no mention of it, but it was

    10 talked about.

    11 Q. Now, you've interpreted this gesture to mean

    12 something; correct?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And you've shared with us what I think you

    15 believe that interpretation is; right?

    16 A. I think so, yes.

    17 Q. Enlighten me again and tell me what you think

    18 it is?

    19 JUDGE MAY: The witness has given evidence

    20 about that.

    21 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough. I'm just laying

    22 the foundation, Judge, so I could proceed on that

    23 point.

    24 JUDGE MAY: Well, go on.

    25 MR. OSTOJIC:

  24. 1 Q. Now, sir, isn't it fair to say, in light of

    2 Exhibit 48B that you have in front of you, the

    3 transcript of the tape that we saw and the fact that

    4 the beginning portion of the tape is cut and the fact

    5 that there's two cuts before Dr. Kovacevic is actually

    6 permitted to speak. That it was at that point that

    7 Dr. Kovacevic merely said, and at that point

    8 Dr. Kovacevic was following the speech and the

    9 introductory comments of Mr. Simo Drljaca, Colonel

    10 Arsic, and Dr. Stakic, after those three individuals,

    11 as the testimony has been presented by Mr. Keegan and

    12 the evidence from your prior testimony that we've

    13 established, it was at that point that Dr. Kovacevic

    14 was speaking, and it was at that point, isn't it

    15 reasonable, Mr. Vulliamy, that Dr. Kovacevic merely

    16 lifted his hand and said, "Let me finish, Dr. Stakic"?

    17 A. I don't know what the exact translation was

    18 and I wouldn't claim to ask. My recollection is that

    19 Mr. Arsic's main remarks -- he may have said --

    20 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, if I may

    21 interrupt? Merely we want an answer to the question

    22 and I know he's trying to editorialise. I believe

    23 whichever question I ask, the Prosecution will be able,

    24 if the Court permits, to either rehabilitate him or

    25 allow him to expand. We are really trying to narrow it

  25. 1 down. But when the witness does elaborate on his

    2 answer, it is a bit frustrating, and all I want to know

    3 is whether or not he remembers that. I apologise.

    4 JUDGE MAY: I think the witness must be

    5 entitled to answer a question, it's an important

    6 matter, in his own way to what his recollection was.

    7 Yes, Mr. Vulliamy?

    8 A. The answer is I don't know exactly what was

    9 said because I didn't understand the language, don't

    10 understand the language, but I remember the gesture.

    11 MR. OSTOJIC:

    12 Q. Why don't we look on page 2 of Exhibit 48(B)

    13 and maybe you can understand it in English?

    14 A. What is --

    15 Q. The gesture and how it was interpreted what

    16 he said during the meeting where you claimed the

    17 gesture meant something totally distorted versus what

    18 the interpreter said the gesture was?

    19 JUDGE MAY: Sorry, I don't understand that

    20 question at all.

    21 MR. OSTOJIC: He said --

    22 JUDGE MAY: Are you going to put to the

    23 witness that this gesture occurred at a particular

    24 point in the transcript?

    25 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes.

  26. 1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well --

    2 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm directing his attention

    3 to --

    4 JUDGE MAY: Let's go to that.

    5 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm directing his attention to

    6 page 2.

    7 JUDGE MAY: Whereabouts.

    8 MR. OSTOJIC: The bottom portion where

    9 Dr. Kovacevic speaks the last time on this page, BCS,

    10 and it says, "Let me finish."

    11 JUDGE MAY: Well, we can ask the witness

    12 that. Mr. Vulliamy, do you recollect if the gesture

    13 appeared at that stage of the transcript?

    14 A. Your Honour, I'm not even sure what page

    15 we're on on the transcript.

    16 MR. OSTOJIC: Page 2.

    17 JUDGE MAY: Page 2, one, two, three, four

    18 lines up.

    19 A. I remember the gesture, I saw it on the film,

    20 and I'm reading this. I don't know whether it's

    21 exactly the same place. I would -- if we look at the

    22 film again and the words match what's written here,

    23 then I'm sure that's right. But I can't say absolutely

    24 for certain because I don't remember the exact words in

    25 the original language, nor would I understand them.

  27. 1 JUDGE MAY: Just let me interrupt for a

    2 moment. I don't recollect this. We can see the

    3 gesture on the film, can we?

    4 A. I think so.

    5 JUDGE MAY: I don't remember.

    6 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, if I may represent

    7 to the Court. This is exactly where the gesture and

    8 his continuation on the comment, after the tape is cut

    9 or spliced, whatever the proper word is, and then he

    10 speaks of that, and then he continues to talk about the

    11 issues raised; "that we know very well what

    12 concentration camps are," and I represent that it was

    13 Prosecutor's exhibit, I believe it's their interpreter

    14 here, it's not ours, so that's why I bring it to the

    15 Court's attention.

    16 JUDGE MAY: Well, I don't think we're going

    17 to get much further on that, but, of course, if you

    18 want to ask any other questions about the gesture, you

    19 may.

    20 MR. OSTOJIC: One other one possibly

    21 depending on his answer also.

    22 Q. Sir, isn't it true, that proper etiquette,

    23 when someone is speaking that, in fact, you should let

    24 them finish before you interrupt them and engage in

    25 conversation?

  28. 1 A. Yes. But if what you say is -- if this

    2 section at the bottom of page 2 of the transcript is

    3 the same as the bit that I remember and the same as the

    4 gesture that's on the film or I think is on the film,

    5 then it's a little more, shall we say, decisive than

    6 that.

    7 Q. Now, if you can look on page 5 of Exhibit

    8 number 48(B) which is yet another interpretation, if

    9 you will, of various portions of the tape. I'm trying

    10 to go through this rather quickly, Your Honour.

    11 Are you on page 5?

    12 A. Of the transcript?

    13 Q. Yes.

    14 A. Yeah.

    15 Q. Sir, on that page, page 5, is an

    16 interpretation, if you will, of a tape, presumably the

    17 first tape, maybe another one, could be a third one,

    18 and on this one, they start first and they talk about

    19 the first thing -- do you see that? The word "first"

    20 on the first line?

    21 A. "First, if there's anything," yeah.

    22 Q. If you compare it to page 1 of that, page 1

    23 as we've already, and you have been kind enough to

    24 share with us, starts with the second promise

    25 "et cetera"; correct?

  29. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. The beginning of the tape, on page 5, and the

    3 tape, the introduction, before Dr. Kovacevic begins to

    4 speak at the bottom of that page, two lines from the

    5 bottom, how many times was the tape cut according to

    6 Exhibit 48(B) page 5?

    7 A. How many cuts are there -- you're asking me

    8 how many cuts there are on page 5?

    9 Q. Well, yes, but if you know, sir, just from

    10 being at the meeting and if you could share with us how

    11 many times it was cut, you can share that with us as

    12 well. That might even be better.

    13 A. I was at the meeting, yes, but the cameraman

    14 doing these cuts was working for somebody else. I

    15 honestly cannot tell you how many times during that

    16 meeting the tape was cut.

    17 Q. And I understand that, and I appreciate

    18 that. So tell me, based on this, Exhibit 48(B) page 5,

    19 what, in accordance with what the Prosecutor tendered

    20 to us, how many times does it reflect the tape was cut

    21 here, before Dr. Kovacevic spoke?

    22 A. I would say on page 5 of this transcript, and

    23 I don't know which bit of film this is, I'm just

    24 counting the words "Tape cut" on the page, there are

    25 four cuts, as I count.

  30. 1 Q. Thank you. Sir, if -- and I direct your

    2 attention to the centre portion of the page 5 where it

    3 says Kovacevic BCS, and he starts to talk about, "I'd

    4 like to know," and then apparently the tape was cut?

    5 A. I can see that written down, yeah.

    6 Q. Do you know, sir, what it was that

    7 Dr. Kovacevic wanted to know as you sit here?

    8 A. I have no idea. I'm afraid I don't recall.

    9 Q. The tape is brought back to the interpreter

    10 after being cut and then Dr. Kovacevic says: "There is

    11 no," and then something was unclear, and then the

    12 interpreter again and then the tape was cut again; do

    13 you see that?

    14 A. Yes, I can see, it says "Tape cut," yes.

    15 Q. Do you know if this section here that

    16 Dr. Kovacevic was speaking of was the issue that you

    17 raised in your testimony on July 15th in relation to

    18 the concentration camps that Dr. Kovacevic seemingly

    19 was denying before the meeting even started?

    20 A. I'm afraid it's impossible for me to tell

    21 just looking at this bit of paper. I don't know,

    22 honestly.

    23 Q. I don't either. And it's doubtful that you

    24 can tell from looking at this and comparing it to the

    25 tape, wouldn't you agree?

  31. 1 A. Sorry?

    2 Q. It's doubtful that we can come up with a

    3 conclusion as to what happened in light of what Exhibit

    4 48(B) tells us, if we compare it to the tape, as to

    5 when it is that Dr. Kovacevic, in your opinion,

    6 started the meeting out by saying there were no

    7 concentration camps, there were only detention camps?

    8 JUDGE MAY: You know, Mr. Ostojic, I'm going

    9 to stop you. We've been through that point. The

    10 witness has given his recollection, and we have the

    11 document and also the tape, perhaps more importantly,

    12 and we'll have to make a judgement about that.

    13 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    14 Q. Now, page 9 of the Exhibit 48(B) -- are we

    15 there?

    16 A. Page 9, yeah.

    17 Q. Yes, thank you. Now, this apparently is a

    18 transcript of the excerpt regarding the meeting with

    19 Kovacevic after the visit to Trnopolje; do you see

    20 that? It's right on top in bold, actually?

    21 A. Yes. I ought to say that I wasn't there.

    22 Q. That was my question. Just for

    23 clarification. You weren't at that meeting at all;

    24 correct?

    25 A. No, I --

  32. 1 Q. Where did you go -- pardon me. Go ahead,

    2 please.

    3 A. I don't have a date for this exactly, but as

    4 I've already told the Court, I went over to try and

    5 investigate camps containing Serbian prisoners over on

    6 the other side.

    7 Q. So it's fair to state, just so that I'm

    8 making sure I have it down, that the one time that you

    9 met Dr. Kovacevic in all of 1992 was what we have, and

    10 the notes that you have from that meeting definitively

    11 are these three pages from your notebooks; correct?

    12 A. Correct.

    13 Q. No meeting afterwards, no meeting in '93,'94,

    14 '95?

    15 A. Correct.

    16 JUDGE MAY: Let me ask something, Mr. Keegan,

    17 I notice that this interview after the meeting at

    18 Trnopolje is attached to this exhibit but it has

    19 nothing to do with this witness at all. Are you

    20 calling some other evidence about it?

    21 MR. KEEGAN: We may, Your Honour, but we

    22 offered the exhibit and it was admitted. It was shown

    23 to the Defence, it was admitted. We believe it stands

    24 for itself.

    25 JUDGE MAY: They may not have understood the

  33. 1 point. But there we are.

    2 MR. OSTOJIC: I can reply to that point very

    3 briefly --

    4 JUDGE MAY: We'll take notice of this at the

    5 moment--

    6 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough, fair enough.

    7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's go on.

    8 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to move along and proceed

    9 with an issue involving the camp of Trnopolje, okay?

    10 A. Sure.

    11 Q. Thank you. Now, in that -- during your visit

    12 at Trnopolje -- I kind of coined it as the barbed wire

    13 kind of issue, would that be fair? You stated for us

    14 that there was barbed wire there; correct?

    15 A. Yes, there was barbed wire.

    16 Q. Sir, what I'd like to know, and in your book

    17 on page 202, and I'll quote it. I apologise to the

    18 Court actually, I had the book and on my journey here

    19 while reading it I misplaced it on the seat, we do have

    20 accurate notes and we checked it yesterday and counsel

    21 who I believe is familiar with it, at the very least,

    22 and I can represent to the Court that these are actual

    23 quotes, so ...

    24 On page 202 of your book which involved the

    25 Bosnian issue, you state: "With his rib cage behind

  34. 1 the barbed wire of Trnopolje, Fikret Alic has

    2 become the symbolic figure of the war on every magazine

    3 cover and television screen in the world." Do you

    4 remember saying that in your book?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Now, you also describe in your book his view

    7 of Trnopolje camps, or your view of the camps, I should

    8 say, and you write on page 104 that it's, quote:

    9 "Another startling calamitous sight, a camp" and then

    10 you mention a couple of words, "a camp surrounded

    11 by barbed wire fencing." Do you remember that?

    12 A. Yes, I do.

    13 Q. In your discussions with Mr. Keegan, and we

    14 saw the tape not only through your testimony but

    15 Mr. Sejmenovic's testimony several days ago, we saw

    16 Trnopolje and the camp with people walking, but I noted

    17 and I tried to read it as carefully as possible, in

    18 your testimony with Mr. Keegan did you or did you not

    19 tell us whether or not the barbed wire fencing

    20 surrounded the Trnopolje camp?

    21 A. I don't remember whether we talked about the

    22 actual fencing. The barbed wire was separating the

    23 prisoners from us when we first arrived at the camp.

    24 Q. Sir, those words are clear, yet in my opinion

    25 are unclear. They were separating you because you were

  35. 1 on one side of the fence and they were on the other

    2 side; correct?

    3 A. Yeah. We were on one side of the barbed wire

    4 fence and they were on the inside of the barbed wire

    5 fence.

    6 Q. Sir, isn't it true that you were on the

    7 inside of the fence when you took that footage?

    8 A. No. They were the ones who were contained.

    9 We had stopped our vans and come from the road.

    10 Q. Now, sir, isn't it true, and are you familiar

    11 with criticism that has been attributed to this barbed

    12 wire footage that, in fact, says that the unused video

    13 portion -- and if I may be permitted to say, we hope to

    14 connect this and I expect we most definitely will with

    15 our witnesses in our case in chief, but that the wire

    16 fencing around the fence -- strike that. That

    17 the barbed wire, that there was no barbed wire

    18 surrounding the Trnopolje camp?

    19 A. The barbed wire did not go all the way around

    20 the compound, there was other forms of wire and a wall,

    21 but the barbed wire was between them and us when we

    22 arrived at the camp.

    23 Q. Why did you say in your book, sir -- I

    24 apologise. I try not to ...

    25 A. You asked me if I was familiar with the

  36. 1 criticism. Yes, I am. It's been going on a long

    2 time. It is the subject of litigation in my country,

    3 and I would be most grateful if I could perhaps give

    4 some background to the Court about this or we could

    5 proceed with questions at the Court's pleasure.

    6 JUDGE MAY: Well, let me see the point. The

    7 issue is whether there was barbed wire around the camp

    8 at all; is that what you're suggesting? That there was

    9 no barbed wire around the camp.

    10 MR. OSTOJIC: There was no barbed wire

    11 surrounding the camp as this man wrote in his book and

    12 there was only a section of the centre where there was

    13 a barbed wire. And what they did, in essence,

    14 according to the criticism, which we hope to connect,

    15 was that they came to an area where the wheelbarrows

    16 were kept and maintained and purposefully put the

    17 people that were within Trnopolje on the opposite side

    18 of the fence wherein they stood where the wheelbarrows

    19 were standing and taped them from a position that you

    20 could tell behind them was not the camp.

    21 JUDGE MAY: So we have the point that this

    22 barbed wire was inside the camp and that the photograph

    23 was in some way manufactured. That's the essence.

    24 MR. OSTOJIC: Manufactured or distorted.

    25 JUDGE MAY: Or whatever. No doubt the

  37. 1 witness can deal with that briefly.

    2 A. Yes, I'll be as brief as I possibly can.

    3 This is a theory which was -- which I first heard about

    4 as written up by a man called Thomas Deichmann who was a

    5 Defence witness in the Tadic case, and who somehow got

    6 to view ITN material which was disclosed having been

    7 given to the Prosecution.

    8 The gist of the thing was that, as you've

    9 just said, we -- to quote you, "put people." We didn't

    10 put people anywhere. I'll continue with that later.

    11 This claim that somehow we were inside a

    12 compound and that these prisoners were outside a

    13 compound first appeared in Britain by Mr. Deichmann in a

    14 magazine called Living Marxism which is the journal of

    15 a party called the Revolutionary Communist Party.

    16 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you. We're not

    17 concerned with -- I'm going to stop you. We are not

    18 concerned with Mr. Deichmann. I think what would be

    19 most helpful, if you would just to tell us what

    20 happened when you arrived where the men were, and how

    21 the photographs came to be taken.

    22 A. I would be delighted.

    23 JUDGE MAY: If you would tell us that,

    24 please.

    25 A. We were going to Trnopolje from Omarska. We

  38. 1 were arriving at the Trnopolje camp. I was in one bus,

    2 Penny Marshall's crew was in a mini van just ahead of

    3 us, we saw this extraordinary sight of this crowd of

    4 men behind a barbed wire fence. Penny's van pulled

    5 up. She got out, understandably, she's a television

    6 reporter, very quickly and made towards the fence. I

    7 followed. Our van obviously pulled up behind. I

    8 followed.

    9 The conversations that we had with the men,

    10 as I've described in my testimony, were through

    11 the barbed wire fence. They were in a compound which

    12 was enclosed, and there were guards guarding them in

    13 the enclosure. Suggestions to the contrary are the

    14 subject of what I said defamation proceedings in my

    15 country. That is how we came to find the men behind

    16 the barbed wire fence.

    17 The allegations incidentally have been

    18 retracted in the high court in my country by the press

    19 agency who repeated them, with an apology and no

    20 damages paid.

    21 MR. OSTOJIC:

    22 Q. Sir, in your book you state that it was

    23 surrounded by barbed wire and I move my fingers, in

    24 quotes, "surrounded by barbed wire," I want to know

    25 before we look at the tape is it your testimony that

  39. 1 the camp was surrounded by barbed wire, sir?

    2 A. I will testify now that the one fence through

    3 which we first encountered this group was barbed wire,

    4 some of it old, some of it brand new. The other

    5 fencing was chain-link wire of a kind that is used in

    6 prisons in the United States and patrolled by guards.

    7 As I recall, at the back there was a wall of a

    8 building. They were -- I mean, the conversation we had

    9 with them was through barbed wire.

    10 Q. We're familiar with that conversation and I

    11 think you shared that with us and thank you for that.

    12 When you say one fence, what does that mean? That only

    13 one section of Trnopolje had a barbed wire fence near

    14 it, or are you saying one fence, that it was complete

    15 and continuous, as you state in your book on page, as I

    16 said, 104 --

    17 JUDGE MAY: You've put that.

    18 MR. OSTOJIC: I've put that. Thank you.

    19 A. Sorry, could you repeat the question?

    20 Q. When you say one fence, what do you mean by

    21 that? Was it a continuous fence?

    22 A. There was a continuous fence around three

    23 sides of the compound. The barbed wire was certainly

    24 all along one of the sides of that fence, and that was

    25 the fence through which I was talking to Mr. Alic and

  40. 1 other people whose testimony I read out yesterday.

    2 Q. That's what I wanted to flesh out, and I

    3 appreciate it. So if we take the centre, Trnopolje, if

    4 we take Trnopolje, you said from your recollection that

    5 there was a fence on three sides and on one side was

    6 the barbed wire fence; is that correct?

    7 A. Can you repeat that? Sorry. My apologies.

    8 Q. We're talking about Trnopolje?

    9 A. Yeah.

    10 Q. And you said that there was a fence generally

    11 on three sides; correct?

    12 A. The compound was fenced in on three sides,

    13 yes.

    14 Q. Thank you. And on one of those three sides

    15 that it was fenced in, had this barbed wire where you

    16 had the initial first, purportedly, conversation with

    17 these --

    18 A. Where I had the conversations with these

    19 people, through the barbed wire fence, yes.

    20 Q. That's fair. Now, the other portions of the

    21 fence, what were they? They weren't barbed wire

    22 because I think you would have shared that with us, so

    23 I am curious to know. What kind of fence was it?

    24 A. I will say now I am not sure whether

    25 the barbed wire went all the way around. There was

  41. 1 other kinds of wire, certainly chain-link wire, and

    2 guards patrolling.

    3 Q. We'll talk about the guards at a later

    4 point. Just talking about the fence. The other side

    5 of Trnopolje, there was no fence?

    6 A. How do you mean the other side.

    7 Q. Well, the fourth -- if you look at it, you

    8 said there were three sides, so I'm assuming then

    9 there's a fourth side; correct?

    10 A. Yes. This wasn't the whole Trnopolje camp,

    11 this was a compound within it.

    12 Q. Oh, so this fence that you're talking about

    13 was actually within the actual large area of Trnopolje;

    14 correct?

    15 A. Yes. I talked yesterday and before about a

    16 school premises into which I went, and that is a

    17 different bit of the camp. I don't recall what the

    18 fencing or otherwise arrangements were there. The bit

    19 that we arrived at first was a compound, and that's, I

    20 think, the compound we're talking about, so when you

    21 say the fourth side of Trnopolje, that's not actually

    22 right. If you say the fourth side of that compound at

    23 Trnopolje, then I understand you, and I'm saying that

    24 that was a wall.

    25 Q. So we have -- just so I understand, and I'm

  42. 1 not very clear on this and it really has been

    2 frustrating for me over the last several days to

    3 understand it -- we have Trnopolje, right? Okay,

    4 right?

    5 A. We have the complex of Trnopolje.

    6 Q. The complex. We'll use your words so I can

    7 understand. The complex of Trnopolje. Then within the

    8 complex of Trnopolje, we have what you call the

    9 compound, quote, unquote; correct?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. So within the complex is this compound.

    12 A. That's fair, yes.

    13 Q. Just trying to use your words and understand

    14 it. And it is within Trnopolje's complex that there's

    15 this barbed wire fence that surrounds a portion of a

    16 compound, correct, on three sides?

    17 A. Barbed wire and chain-link wire fence

    18 surrounding three sides of a compound in which the

    19 prisoners were that we first beheld, that's right.

    20 Q. Do you remember as you sit here where this

    21 compound is within the complex?

    22 A. Well, I don't know which is south and which

    23 is north, east, or west, if that's what you're asking,

    24 but if you're coming from Omarska, as we were, you get

    25 to it first and it's on the left, on a corner.

  43. 1 Q. How large, if you recall, was the Trnopolje

    2 complex?

    3 A. How long large? Pretty large. A school, its

    4 premises. As I recall, another building, maybe two,

    5 and the field compound or whatever it was in which the

    6 prisoners were being held. How large is large? Yes.

    7 There was a lot of people there.

    8 Q. No, I understand that and we've covered how

    9 many people were there. I don't know what pretty large

    10 means to you. Was it a square mile? Was it ten miles,

    11 the Trnopolje complex?

    12 A. I don't want to measure it because I don't

    13 know, but it was certainly more a square mile than a

    14 square -- than ten square miles, yes.

    15 Q. How about the compound? How big was the

    16 compound that you're describing where there was

    17 the barbed wire fence on one side and chain-link or

    18 some type of fence on the other two sides, how big was

    19 that area within the complex, just so I can visualise

    20 it?

    21 A. I'm really not trying to be difficult.

    22 Q. No, I --

    23 A. I'm trying my best to talk in terms of

    24 yards. If I said a medium-sized field, would that be

    25 helpful? I don't want to start measuring yards and

  44. 1 feet because --

    2 JUDGE MAY: In relation to a football field?

    3 A. Yeah, thank you, Your Honour. Let's say two

    4 and a half football fields.

    5 JUDGE MAY: Is that of any assistance to you,

    6 Mr. Ostojic?

    7 MR. OSTOJIC:

    8 Q. Yes. But just so I understand. Is the

    9 Trnopolje complex two and a half football fields or is

    10 the compound itself within that two and a half football

    11 fields?

    12 A. The compound in which the prisoners to whom

    13 we first spoke through the barbed wire fence was about,

    14 as I recall, and it is a guesstimate, two and a half

    15 football fields.

    16 Q. And using that same mode or rationale for

    17 measurement, football fields, and I do understand it

    18 and I appreciate it, can you tell us how big the

    19 complex was, now having told us that the compound was

    20 two and a half fields, just so we can have a

    21 perspective, if you will?

    22 A. I don't really want to get into this

    23 measurement. But lets say --

    24 Q. It doesn't surprise me, sir.

    25 A. Let's say several more football fields.

  45. 1 Certainly bigger than the compound. I mean, there was

    2 more of it without the compound than within the

    3 compound.

    4 Q. I figured that much out because of the way

    5 you describe the complex and the compound within, but I

    6 really need to know, sir, and I apologise for insisting

    7 on this question, but we need to know because you

    8 placed footage into this case trying to indicate that

    9 there was certain factual situations that arose within

    10 the Trnopolje compound, I need to know from you, the

    11 person who was there, how big that complex was in

    12 relation to the compound?

    13 A. Well, I didn't place footage into the case,

    14 the Prosecution did.

    15 Q. I stand corrected. I apologise for that.

    16 A. The -- I'm trying to help here. The complex,

    17 the Trnopolje camp, was a complex of buildings, as I

    18 recall, the principal one of which was a school

    19 building. There was another building, if not two more

    20 buildings. There was more acreage or square footage

    21 beyond the fenced-in compound than there was within the

    22 fenced-in compound, that is to say, the fenced-in

    23 compound was the first bit that we got to, and behind

    24 it or further on into the complex, there was more

    25 space, more open ground, and buildings, principally

  46. 1 this school building.

    2 JUDGE MAY: I am going to stop this

    3 cross-examination now on this particular point. It's

    4 been taken as far as it can be. It may be that the

    5 Prosecution will be able to assist in due course with

    6 further evidence about this -- or the Defence, indeed,

    7 with further evidence about the complex. There is an

    8 exhibit -- I haven't referred to it -- Exhibit 45, but

    9 that shows the village as well as the complex.

    10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    11 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to move on,

    12 Mr. Ostojic?

    13 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

    14 Q. Just to backtrack, one point that I missed

    15 regarding the meeting with Dr. Kovacevic on August 5th,

    16 1992, and we hope after a timely break, we'll be given

    17 an opportunity to coordinate with the videographers and

    18 place a tape on this issue, if the Court permits, and

    19 others.

    20 On Exhibit 57, going back to it, and I

    21 apologise, you write on page 1 of that three-page

    22 exhibit the word T-shirt, and you put it in a square;

    23 correct?

    24 A. Sorry, which exhibit is this?

    25 Q. That's your notes, I apologise?

  47. 1 A. Yeah.

    2 Q. From your August 5th, 1992, one and a half

    3 hour meeting. You're with me?

    4 A. Yeah. I see it.

    5 Q. Do you see the T-shirt there?

    6 A. I do.

    7 Q. When was that written in?

    8 A. As we sat down, when I was writing down these

    9 names.

    10 Q. Whose T-shirt was it? Was it the guy next,

    11 the president of the commune, Milomir Stakic that

    12 you're referring to?

    13 A. No, it was an aide-memoire so that I wouldn't

    14 forget the T-shirt that Dr. Kovacevic was wearing,

    15 which was notable for the fact that it had U.S. marines

    16 written across it.

    17 Q. And that is why I wanted to actually ask you

    18 that, I didn't know if you noted that or not. In the

    19 videotape there was a footage, and I think you'll

    20 recall it, when the camera zooms into the side of

    21 Dr. Kovacevic's arm and zooms into what is a patch, if

    22 you will, on that T-shirt; correct?

    23 A. I don't remember that, actually.

    24 Q. We'll share it with you later. But, in fact,

    25 the T-shirt that Dr. Kovacevic wore was a United States

  48. 1 of America Marine T-shirt; correct?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. I just wanted to clarify that. Thank you.

    4 Your Honour, we would like, if we will, to

    5 take perhaps an early break now so that we could

    6 coordinate the video footage or if the Court would

    7 like, we could do it, but I want to be a little more

    8 efficient and try to wrap things up as expeditiously as

    9 possible.

    10 JUDGE MAY: What topic would you be going on

    11 to apart from the video? What else do you want to

    12 cross-examine the witness about?

    13 MR. OSTOJIC: I have to cross-examine the

    14 witness in enormous detail, I must add, on his notes of

    15 February 1996 and his aide-memoirs, as he calls him,

    16 which were written, and the inconsistencies that I

    17 believe are exhaustive.

    18 JUDGE MAY: That doesn't matter. So you want

    19 to cross-examine about that interview. Apart from the

    20 video and the video of the interview, is there anything

    21 more you want to ask about the camps. It is simply

    22 that it is rather early for us to have our break, and

    23 if we can fill in the time usefully, we should.

    24 MR. OSTOJIC: No. No, I'm not going to cover

    25 '92 any longer. I think I have covered it adequately,

  49. 1 we hope.

    2 JUDGE MAY: So it's only the video.

    3 MR. OSTOJIC: Correct, Your Honour. Right.

    4 The video is about 1992, as the Court knows.

    5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The registry has the

    6 video. Is there any reason we can't go on to it now?

    7 MR. OSTOJIC: Not at all. I just wanted

    8 direction. I didn't want to interrupt the

    9 proceeding --

    10 JUDGE MAY: The registrar can ...

    11 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I have a couple

    12 questions that I could fill the time with, if the Court

    13 permits, but if the Court feels that I've covered this

    14 area more than sufficiently, I can wait.

    15 JUDGE MAY: I think we probably feel that you

    16 have.

    17 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    18 I understand that we've coordinated it with

    19 the videographer, and if we may proceed, Your Honour?

    20 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Play the part that

    21 you want to play, Mr. Ostojic.

    22 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. Mr. Videographer,

    23 would you play the part?

    24 Just if we can pause here, please?

    25 (Videotape played)

  50. 1 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, do you recognise this as being

    2 a portion of the tape that we saw yesterday? Do you

    3 recognise that portion?

    4 A. Not yet, I have to say.

    5 Q. Just do you recognise the house that's on the

    6 other side of that street there?

    7 A. I can't --

    8 Q. That building, I should say?

    9 A. I don't know.

    10 Q. Do you know if it's a house or a building or

    11 part of a complex, that big complex you were talking

    12 about?

    13 A. At the moment I don't know what it is.

    14 Q. Now, if we could run the tape? Slowly,

    15 though.

    16 MR. OSTOJIC: At regular speed.

    17 Stop.

    18 Q. Sir, now looking at this guy with the

    19 wheelbarrow, do the wheelbarrows, remind you of the

    20 wheelbarrows that were in front of the barbed wire

    21 within the compound of the complex of Trnopolje?

    22 A. I don't remember any wheelbarrows.

    23 Q. Do you see the wheelbarrow there?

    24 A. I can see a wheelbarrow in the picture.

    25 Q. Do you have any independent recollection as

  51. 1 you sit here, whether or not, during your interview

    2 with the people in Trnopolje, within that compound

    3 where the fence was, whether or not there were

    4 wheelbarrows on the side of the fence?

    5 A. There may or may not have been. I wasn't

    6 looking for wheelbarrows at that moment.

    7 MR. OSTOJIC: Please continue with the tape.

    8 (Videotape played)

    9 Stop.

    10 Q. Sir, do you have any recollection of this

    11 being at least within the complex of Trnopolje?

    12 A. I can't really tell from this, but if it is,

    13 it is.

    14 MR. OSTOJIC: Proceed, please.

    15 (Videotape played)

    16 Q. See where these people are standing?

    17 A. It's very fuzzy, but I can see people

    18 standing there, yeah.

    19 Q. I agree with you that it's somewhat fuzzy.

    20 This building behind these people that are standing

    21 there, what is that building; do you remember?

    22 A. It's hard to see, but it seems to be part of

    23 the Trnopolje complex, yes.

    24 Q. Do you recall within that complex what

    25 specifically that building was?

  52. 1 A. I can't see from this picture, I'm afraid.

    2 MR. OSTOJIC: Can we maybe continue to play

    3 the tape, please?

    4 (Videotape played)

    5 Stop. Back up a little bit. May we back up

    6 a little? Let's stop. Thank you.

    7 Q. Is the camera trying to span over to the

    8 left, I believe, and it covered -- now the building

    9 that is seen on the right-hand corner a little more

    10 clearly. Can you see that?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Now, I'd like for us just to go backwards a

    13 little bit more. Continue: Pause, please.

    14 Is there a fence in front of these people

    15 here?

    16 A. I can't see on this picture, I'm afraid.

    17 Q. Well, when you were there, do you remember

    18 whether or not the fence was this close to that

    19 building back there?

    20 A. I don't recall this particular bit -- it's

    21 difficult to see from the picture where it is, but I

    22 don't recall whether there was a fence or not there,

    23 but, I mean, as I recall, the fence went around the

    24 compound, yes.

    25 Q. Is this the area of the compound that you

  53. 1 were discussing?

    2 A. I think it's a corner of it, yeah.

    3 MR. OSTOJIC: Can we proceed with the tape?

    4 The camera is spanning, and show me here

    5 during this picture -- pause, please -- our timing is a

    6 little off. Back up. And then if we can just slowly

    7 proceed forward again.

    8 Q. And Mr. Vulliamy, I'm asking you the question

    9 while the tape is running: Where within this picture

    10 do you see a fence?

    11 A. I --

    12 Q. Pause. Pardon me.

    13 A. I can't see the picture clear enough to

    14 identify a fence. There seems to be a fence running

    15 along sort of four-tenths of the way up but it's not

    16 very clear, but there seems to be a fence there, yes.

    17 Q. If we can back up so we're clear on this

    18 point whether or not there's a fence on this side here.

    19 Stop. Pause, I mean.

    20 My apologies.

    21 Back on the tape, please.

    22 Now, this building, and if we can span it

    23 slowly again, is part of a school; do you recall that?

    24 A. I think the whole complex was a school and

    25 its surrounding buildings, yes.

  54. 1 Q. And the four-tenths of the way that you

    2 described. Sir, wasn't that just a fence that was an

    3 area to keep the children from going into different

    4 parts of the school complex, if you will? Stop.

    5 A. I don't know. It was a fence within which

    6 the prisoners were being held.

    7 Q. Now, sir, was that -- if you look -- continue

    8 forward, please? Pause. This purported fence that you

    9 see on this tape, that wasn't the barbed wire that you

    10 were discussing earlier that's on one side of the

    11 compound within the complex?

    12 A. That isn't the barbed wire fence, no, I think

    13 it's a chain-link fence, as I recall.

    14 Q. Back on the tape, please. And we can

    15 continue to play the tape. Please continue to play it,

    16 please.

    17 (Videotape played)

    18 Q. This area is obviously the barbed wire fence

    19 that you were talking about, right?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, while the tape is

    22 simply playing, I would just make a point for the

    23 record, this is not the tape that was put in through

    24 this witness, this is not the ITN footage, this is the

    25 Serbian camera crew footage, so the first initial

  55. 1 question was, is this the film we saw the other day? I

    2 presumed that meant through this witness, which is not

    3 the case.

    4 MR. OSTOJIC: Pause, if you please. Pardon

    5 me Mr. Keegan.

    6 JUDGE MAY: Let's establish what this is.

    7 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, if I may have

    8 asked that question, it certainly wasn't to mislead

    9 him. I thought that the registrar was giving us the

    10 tape that counsel placed in. This is a footage of a

    11 another -- I think of a another cameraman, if I'm not

    12 mistaken, which shows a view of Mr. Vulliamy here

    13 towards the end of this fence, and I think that that

    14 was given to us, though, if I may represent that, by

    15 counsel for the Prosecution.

    16 JUDGE MAY: Well, lets put it to the witness,

    17 if you wish. It's clearly the same scenes as we saw

    18 before.

    19 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll ask him that.

    20 Q. Sir, these are approximately the same scenes

    21 that we saw before; correct?

    22 A. Yes, if that's the barbed wire fence, that's

    23 the fence through which we were talking to the

    24 prisoners.

    25 Q. Can we come back to the tape, please?

  56. 1 Now, just let this portion or segment of the

    2 tape. Do you see where you are on that tape?

    3 A. I think so, yes. Is that me holding the

    4 notebook? It's very fuzzy and the lights are right on

    5 my screen.

    6 Q. I think so.

    7 A. But, yeah, that looks like me.

    8 Q. If we can -- if we can back the tape up just

    9 a few segments and then just come across it and then

    10 pause at this point again?

    11 (Videotape played)

    12 A. Now I can ...

    13 Q. Do you see the post that is here in the left

    14 portion of the tape?

    15 A. Yes, I can see a post.

    16 Q. Do you see that post with the top wire up on

    17 top there, the first wire?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Does that wire extend on the left side of the

    20 post, if you can tell from this picture?

    21 A. I can't see it extend anywhere. I can see it

    22 going to the post.

    23 Q. It goes to the post. That's what I saw. I

    24 just don't know if my view of it is any different than

    25 yours or anyone else's.

  57. 1 Doesn't it suggest, sir, this segment, that

    2 wire, the barbed wire that you were talking about,

    3 actually stops at this post, and you're actually

    4 talking to individuals at Trnopolje on the other side

    5 of the post or on the side of that post; correct?

    6 A. At that point, that's fair. I interviewed

    7 several prisoners. The ones I interviewed through the

    8 barbed wire I've already told the Court about. Here I

    9 am interviewing some other prisoners.

    10 As you can see, to the left and behind Penny

    11 and I is open space with no crowd of people and within

    12 the fence is a crowd of people.

    13 Q. Now, do you see what's near your feet?

    14 A. Yes, I do. I have to say, I don't remember

    15 them, but they are wheelbarrows. I had other things to

    16 think about at the time.

    17 Q. And I understand that. That's why I direct

    18 your attention to it because you didn't recall it and

    19 you shared that with us. And, in fact, you seem to

    20 have squeezed in between two wheelbarrows, there seems

    21 to have been three or four, I don't know how many the

    22 tape reflects, I think actually six, but whatever the

    23 number is, and you just kind of scooted right in

    24 between those wheelbarrows; correct?

    25 A. I don't remember the wheelbarrows, but that's

  58. 1 what seems to be in the picture.

    2 Q. Sir, do you remember that the wheelbarrows

    3 were in an area and this particular area where the

    4 wheelbarrows and items were kept for storage?

    5 A. I don't remember that, know.

    6 Q. Do you remember that this area where the

    7 fence is is an area where that complex was keeping

    8 actual materials for use within the complex, such as

    9 the wheelbarrows?

    10 A. I've already said: No, I don't remember

    11 that. The van pulled up and we saw the extraordinary

    12 sight of these men imprisoned behind the barbed wire

    13 and I walked towards them. I wasn't looking around me,

    14 and I hope the Court will understand that I was not

    15 trying to inspect what wasn't or was being kept in

    16 terms of wheelbarrows. I don't remember the

    17 wheelbarrows. I'm not at all contesting that they're

    18 there. They obviously are there. I didn't notice the

    19 wheelbarrows. I was looking at the prisoners.

    20 Q. Sir, can you reconcile for this Court and for

    21 me how you can, on page 104 of your book, state that

    22 the Trnopolje camp was surrounded by barbed wire in

    23 light of your testimony and in light of the tape that

    24 we've just seen?

    25 JUDGE MAY: I think the witness has dealt

  59. 1 with that. Any further questions would be by way of

    2 comment. You can comment on it in due course and you

    3 can call evidence. But I think as far as this witness

    4 is concerned, the matter is exhausted.

    5 MR. OSTOJIC: Very well, Your Honour. May I

    6 have one moment?

    7 Your Honour, we do have one next segment on

    8 the tape that I need to cover with Mr. Vulliamy, if I

    9 may?

    10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    11 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. The next tape, I

    12 believe, and this, Your Honour, is Defence Exhibit --

    13 the next number, which I believe is 7 or 8, and that is

    14 a tape that was given to us by the Office of the

    15 Prosecutor which shows a different perspective again of

    16 the visit by Mr. Vulliamy at Trnopolje complex.

    17 JUDGE MAY: Well, if this isn't ready, it may

    18 be a convenient time --

    19 MR. OSTOJIC: It is, Your Honour. We try to

    20 be efficient. Sorry.

    21 This tape right here, if we can stop -- I

    22 mean, you have paused. Thank you.

    23 (Videotape played)

    24 Q. Do you see, Mr. Vulliamy, those wheelbarrows

    25 again?

  60. 1 A. I can see the wheelbarrows, yes.

    2 Q. So we're pretty much in the same area;

    3 correct, that we were in the prior tape, right, with

    4 the wheelbarrows being there?

    5 A. I imagine so, yes.

    6 Q. Any reason to doubt it?

    7 A. I know it looks like the same crowd of people

    8 to me.

    9 Q. Do you see that house in the background?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Are you familiar with that house at all?

    12 A. Not especially from this picture, no.

    13 Q. Do you remember that I showed you a house on

    14 the prior tape?

    15 A. Was that the very -- the opening shot?

    16 Q. Yes.

    17 A. I can remember you showing me a picture with

    18 a house on it.

    19 Q. I tried to direct your attention to the

    20 house. Is that or is that not the house that we saw

    21 that was outside the camp or outside the Trnopolje

    22 complex that we showed you on the first video?

    23 A. I don't know. I'm afraid I can't remember.

    24 Q. I want you to -- you're an expert witness, I

    25 understand the Prosecution is calling you as such. I

  61. 1 want to presume this --

    2 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I'm going to object

    3 to that. At no time was this witness represented as an

    4 expert witness.

    5 JUDGE MAY: . The witness in this case,

    6 whatever may have been said in other cases, he is

    7 clearly a witness as to fact. You mean, I imagine,

    8 that since he was there, you want to ask him about the

    9 layout.

    10 MR. OSTOJIC: I do --

    11 JUDGE MAY: He's said that he can't recognise

    12 the house.

    13 MR. OSTOJIC: And I have just a follow-up

    14 question on that. But I must reply. If counsel is

    15 designating Mr. Vulliamy as a fact witness, I have to

    16 move, and I'm not sure if this is appropriate but I'm

    17 doing it to preserve the record, to strike the opinion

    18 testimony which Mr. Keegan elicited which at the

    19 commencement of proceedings this morning I specifically

    20 pointed out that Mr. Keegan's questions started with

    21 the fact, sir, do you have an opinion, and he gave an

    22 opinion on certain items of that. I will take his

    23 representation that this witness is not an expert

    24 witness, and I agree most definitely with Mr. Keegan

    25 that he is not an expert witness to show any type of

  62. 1 pattern or any other issues relating to that. With

    2 that in mind, if I may proceed?

    3 JUDGE MAY: Except for this, that although

    4 you're right that, of course, normally witnesses can't

    5 give their opinion if they're not experts, nonetheless,

    6 a witness is entitled to give his impression of events,

    7 and it's probably in that light that the questions were

    8 asked and should be understood.

    9 What weight we give to those impressions, of

    10 course, will be for us to determine, because

    11 essentially we've got to decide the case.

    12 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    13 Q. Now, if we can please go back to the tape and

    14 the footage we were discussing. Sir, these houses that

    15 we see in the background, are those houses that are

    16 within the complex of Trnopolje?

    17 A. I don't know, actually. I would imagine

    18 they're across the road, but from this picture, I'm

    19 afraid I can't tell.

    20 Q. Is it fair to say, sir, that the houses --

    21 strike that. Is it fair to say that there were houses

    22 outside of the Trnopolje complex?

    23 A. Yes, there were houses around, yes. Some

    24 houses.

    25 Q. Can you talk a little bit about the houses.

  63. 1 And, sir, if this is a house that is outside the

    2 Trnopolje complex -- are you following me? You know

    3 where I'm going almost. If this house is on the

    4 outside of the Trnopolje complex, shouldn't the real

    5 video footage be reversed and that these people should

    6 be looking at the house if they're in the camp looking

    7 at the houses as opposed to with their backs to the

    8 houses?

    9 JUDGE MAY: Well, I suspect that's a matter

    10 of comment, and I don't know -- I shall ask the

    11 witness -- if he can answer it if he understood it?

    12 A. I didn't actually understand the question.

    13 JUDGE MAY: I think this is by way of comment

    14 really.

    15 MR. OSTOJIC: Fine. If we may just go back

    16 to this footage?

    17 (Videotape played)

    18 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may proceed two more

    19 minutes on this issue? I apologise, Your Honour, and

    20 to the Prosecutor and Mr. Vulliamy.

    21 Q. Sir, on -- we're on that video footage.

    22 Thank you.

    23 If we look at this post here, sir, and there

    24 seems to be wires going to the right of the post, do

    25 you see that?

  64. 1 A. Yes, I can see -- the post about a third of

    2 the way across from the left, do you mean?

    3 Q. Right.

    4 A. Would it trouble the Court if I would ask the

    5 lights be dimmed a little? It makes the picture so

    6 much clearer. I'm sorry.

    7 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    8 A. Sorry to trouble you. Thank you. Yes. I

    9 can see a wire extending in both directions from the

    10 post, new wire and old wire.

    11 MR. OSTOJIC:

    12 Q. Now, do you see the gentleman to the left of

    13 the post, sir, with the blue pants or shorts without a

    14 shirt?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Are his hands up onto a wire, or what are

    17 they up -- do you see them?

    18 A. I can't quite see, but he seems to be holding

    19 onto a bit of the fence, yes.

    20 Q. Well, do you know if he's holding that

    21 portion of the fence that's barbed wire with both hands

    22 clutched up against that fence?

    23 A. The barbed wire seems to be going underneath

    24 the bit of wire that he's holding onto.

    25 Q. You can tell that from -- where underneath,

  65. 1 if we use his body or torso as a point of reference?

    2 A. Sorry? Where's the barbed wire going?

    3 Q. Yeah. You said it was below him?

    4 A. It's going, it sort of enters the frame of

    5 his torso around his shoulder and seems to lower a

    6 little and then exit at the other shoulder.

    7 Q. And is that you that we can barely see on the

    8 left-hand side of there, the blue shirt and the --

    9 A. Yeah, that looks like me. That is me.

    10 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Videographer?

    11 JUDGE MAY: Is that a convenient moment?

    12 MR. OSTOJIC: It is, Your Honour. Thank you.

    13 JUDGE MAY: Twenty minutes, please.

    14 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

    15 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

    16 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. We are nearing an

    17 end, Your Honour, so I think we're excited, and I

    18 appreciate the Court's patience with us and the tapes

    19 that were presented and the patience of the Office of

    20 the Prosecutor as well as Mr. Vulliamy on that issue.

    21 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, in 1996, we covered briefly,

    22 and I think generally areas, and how it was part

    23 personal, part professional, that you came to see

    24 Dr. Kovacevic four years after the 1992, August 5th,

    25 1992 meeting, and you came there, but I think you told

  66. 1 us that you didn't have a cameraman with you and you

    2 didn't have any sort of tape recorder. Do you remember

    3 that testimony?

    4 A. Yes, I do.

    5 Q. Now, this meeting that you were going to have

    6 with Dr. Kovacevic, was it for another book that you

    7 were writing?

    8 A. No. It was as part of a series of articles

    9 which had been commissioned by my foreign editor at The

    10 Guardian just before Christmas the previous year, 1995,

    11 and the idea was to write a series of articles in which

    12 we would revisit people and themes important during the

    13 war. Military people, diplomatic people, and, among

    14 the people we thought it would be interesting to talk

    15 to, were those on whose authority we had gone to the

    16 camps in 1992.

    17 Q. And we covered authority, if you recall, a

    18 little bit yesterday when I pointed out to you, with

    19 respect to Exhibits number 55 and 56, those were your

    20 aide-memoires, as you call them, that you wrote

    21 relating to Dr. Kovacevic and Dr. Stakic and how you

    22 used the word chairman for Dr. Stakic. Do you remember

    23 that discussion?

    24 A. Yes, I do.

    25 Q. Sir, is it fair to state that in light --

  67. 1 despite your testimony, and I say this most

    2 respectfully, despite your testimony during direct

    3 examination by the Office of the Prosecutor, when he

    4 was asking you questions about the meetings and

    5 conversations you had with Dr. Kovacevic, you didn't

    6 have your notebook with you; correct?

    7 A. I don't actually recall. To the best of my

    8 recollection, we got the notebooks out when the Court

    9 asked me to read them to you, but I don't think I had

    10 them or anything when we were talking about the

    11 testimony. I was working from memory at that point.

    12 Q. I agree. And it has been a long week and

    13 it's been a couple days ago, it's hard to remember a

    14 couple days, much less four years later; wouldn't you

    15 agree with me on that?

    16 A. It depends on what you're remembering. No, I

    17 don't agree with you.

    18 Q. Now, with respect to the notes, just -- let's

    19 assume for the moment that the notes that you have

    20 before you now, those two books that you kept and the

    21 one containing Dr. Kovacevic's interview that you had

    22 in 1996, that actually you didn't have them during your

    23 direct examination that Mr. Keegan elicited from you.

    24 Is it fair to say that the testimony there is more

    25 reliable than your notes or less reliable than your

  68. 1 notes?

    2 A. I would say the notes were more reliable and

    3 the aide-memoire which incorporates the questions and

    4 organises the notes. The testimony was given on memory

    5 of papers I hadn't seen for a while.

    6 Q. So I'm asking you, prior to the testimony

    7 that Mr. Keegan elicited from you, were you given an

    8 opportunity to review those notes?

    9 A. Yes, but I didn't go over them in great

    10 detail.

    11 Q. Now, the third part of this is actually your

    12 aide-memoires, and I'll try to go slow so we can follow

    13 it because there are a couple of different concepts.

    14 We have your hand-written notes that you testified were

    15 taken contemporaneous during your meeting with

    16 Dr. Kovacevic, then we have your testimony elicited

    17 through Mr. Keegan, and then we have this third

    18 document, if you will -- can I call it that? -- which

    19 were your aide-memoires; right?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Now, with respect to the aide-memoires and

    22 your hand-written contemporaneous notes taken during

    23 your conversation with Dr. Kovacevic, which would you

    24 say were more reliable?

    25 A. I'd say that the notes were taken from the

  69. 1 conversation, they are not the entire conversation, and

    2 what we're calling the aide-memoire is, if you like,

    3 the following night on a friend's computer in Zagreb,

    4 I'm trying to organise the conversation with a view to

    5 writing an article.

    6 JUDGE MAY: Let me interrupt to see if I

    7 understand this. Were the notes taken actually during

    8 the meeting as you were sitting there?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 JUDGE MAY: That was in February?

    11 A. February '96, Your Honour.

    12 JUDGE MAY: Do we actually have a date for

    13 it?

    14 A. I'm afraid I don't have an exact date but I

    15 can easily get it for you.

    16 JUDGE MAY: No, it's of no significance.

    17 Just help us with the time. What sort of time of day

    18 was it?

    19 A. In the morning, Your Honour.

    20 JUDGE MAY: And then the aide-memoire, which

    21 is Exhibit 55, was made the next day, so --

    22 A. The following evening.

    23 JUDGE MAY: The following evening. And I think

    24 you said, correct me if I'm wrong, that it was for the

    25 purpose of an article?

  70. 1 A. Yes, Your Honour.

    2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

    3 MR. OSTOJIC:

    4 Q. Just to follow up on the Court's question.

    5 Do you have that article that was published after this

    6 meeting with Dr. Kovacevic?

    7 A. I don't, I'm afraid.

    8 Q. When was the article published, if at all?

    9 A. It would have been shortly after the

    10 interview.

    11 Q. Now, going back to these three documents,

    12 your testimony, the aide-memoires, and your hand-written

    13 contemporaneous notes. Sir, which would be most

    14 reliable of the three?

    15 A. The contemporaneous notes, obviously, but

    16 they do not contain the questions that would explain

    17 what it is Dr. Kovacevic was answering in the notes.

    18 Q. Now, if you recall your testimony through

    19 Mr. Keegan during his questioning, at 16.07.23, you

    20 stated that you said -- and you're discussing this area

    21 and I'm going to the centre of it, that's why I give

    22 you the specific second portion, and you're talking to

    23 us, as you have during the last couple of days, you

    24 say: "Doctor, were you part of it." And then you said

    25 he said -- you're referring to Dr. Kovacevic; right?

  71. 1 A. Yes, absolutely.

    2 Q. And then you say, quote: "If I was to be

    3 acquitted of being a part of this collective madness,

    4 that would not be right, but I would want to ask myself

    5 what my part in it was." And then you say "end

    6 quote." Do you remember giving that testimony?

    7 A. Yes, I do. It's to the best of my

    8 recollection what I had written in the notes.

    9 Q. The word "collective madness," sir, does it

    10 or does it not appear in your book that was published

    11 in late 1993, 1994?

    12 A. I don't recall.

    13 Q. Sir, let me ask you this: If you look at

    14 your aide-memoires on that particular section, Exhibit

    15 55, page 3, and I'm not sure that they're numbered, but

    16 it should be the third page of Exhibit 53 (sic), the

    17 first question that's asked: "Were you part of this

    18 collective madness or outside it?" And then there's

    19 the text that appears there -- you don't have that

    20 text. If I could have someone tender Exhibit 55 or the

    21 registrar tender Exhibit 55 to the witness.

    22 And while we're doing that, Your Honour, I'd

    23 like to ask leave that the closed session evidence and

    24 testimony that was presented in reading, and I believe

    25 he read it and we're verifying that, where he read his

  72. 1 notes on this '96 meeting, be introduced and

    2 incorporated as part within this portion so the Court

    3 can review it at their leisure.

    4 JUDGE MAY: It is part of the record, all

    5 that interview, and, in fact, all that evidence.

    6 MR. OSTOJIC: And if I may just inquire of

    7 the Court. Would it be fair to say that you need not

    8 my assistance to go through each and every

    9 inconsistency, if you will, or expansion or, we've

    10 called it distortion, and I recognise the word is

    11 strong, of the comparison between his notes and the

    12 aide-memoire and his testimony, or would the Court --

    13 JUDGE MAY: You may take that point, and if

    14 you wish to deal with the witness by putting the matter

    15 generally, putting some particular points, you won't be

    16 subject to any criticism, and you can then take us

    17 through what you say are any inconsistencies in due

    18 course.

    19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

    20 JUDGE MAY: Clearly -- I'm sorry. Clearly

    21 any major inconsistencies you should point out so the

    22 witness has a chance of dealing with them.

    23 MR. OSTOJIC:

    24 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, we're now in the section -- in

    25 your notes and in your testimony -- strike that. In

  73. 1 your testimony, I noted significantly that when

    2 Mr. Keegan asked you questions, he didn't put the

    3 question to you: "Mr. Vulliamy, did you ask

    4 Dr. Kovacevic, were you part of the collective madness

    5 or were you outside it?" Right?

    6 A. I don't remember.

    7 Q. I know it's been a long week. In fact, you

    8 had asked Dr. Kovacevic the question, and it was you,

    9 sir, who inserted the words "collective madness," did

    10 you not?

    11 A. In the testimony or in the interview?

    12 Q. In the interview, sir.

    13 A. In the interview, yes, I remember -- I think

    14 it was my colleague actually said -- we were talking

    15 about the fight that the Serbs in the area had been

    16 engaged in, and, yes, my colleague asked him, "Was it a

    17 necessary fight or was it madness, a moment of

    18 madness?" I don't remember "collective madness," but I

    19 remember the term coming up in the conversation, I

    20 remember Dr. Kovacevic using it, and I remember us

    21 using it, to the best of my recollection and looking at

    22 this now, yes. I'm not trying to say that the word

    23 madness wasn't first used by us and not him.

    24 Q. That's fair. And not only was the word

    25 "madness" used but "collective madness", do you see

  74. 1 that appearing on the question itself where you state

    2 on page 3 of Exhibit 55, quote: "Were you part of

    3 this, under scored, collective madness, et cetera?"

    4 A. Yes, I'm sure one of us asked that question.

    5 Q. Can we tell by looking at Exhibit 55 whether

    6 these were your questions or your colleague's

    7 questions?

    8 A. No, I'm afraid not. By and large, the first

    9 part of the conversation would have been mostly my

    10 colleague's, and the latter part mostly mine. But I'm

    11 not going to say whose is whose question because I

    12 can't now remember.

    13 Q. During the conversation that you had with

    14 Dr. Kovacevic on February of 1996, did you have any

    15 drinks with him?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. And what type of drinks were they, if you

    18 could share it with the Court?

    19 A. Plum brandy.

    20 Q. Did you yourself, sir, have a plum brandy

    21 with Dr. Kovacevic?

    22 A. I had a glass of plum brandy, yes.

    23 Q. Did your colleague have a glass of plum

    24 brandy with Dr. Kovacevic?

    25 A. Yes, he did.

  75. 1 Q. How many did he have?

    2 A. Quite a few.

    3 Q. Your colleague?

    4 A. My colleague had a glass. I can't speak for

    5 him, actually, but not much.

    6 Q. Well, you were there. I'm asking you just

    7 about your colleague at the moment. We know what

    8 you've written and we'll get to that in a second. Your

    9 colleague, I'm interested to know how many glasses of

    10 brandy did your colleague have?

    11 A. I don't know. I mean enough to be able to

    12 drive competently afterwards.

    13 Q. So he was the one who was driving you or not?

    14 A. We both drove.

    15 Q. I just want to know either way. Just help me

    16 out here.

    17 A. At some point in the journey that followed

    18 the interview we both drove.

    19 Q. Is it your testimony, sir, that you had one

    20 glass of brandy at the outset of the meeting?

    21 A. One glass of brandy and there was a refill

    22 about two-thirds of the way through of about a third of

    23 the glass.

    24 Q. Can you show us where it states in your

    25 hand-written notes that were taken contemporaneous with

  76. 1 that that, in fact, you also engaged with having a

    2 drink with Dr. Kovacevic? Can you point that out to

    3 the Court?

    4 A. I don't know if there is a reference.

    5 There's a reference to grapes and brandy, and there's a

    6 reference to him having some drinks, but, sorry, I

    7 don't remember. I don't think there is a reference of

    8 me having one.

    9 Q. I'm familiar with the references that you

    10 made about Dr. Kovacevic, and him having drinks.

    11 Having the inability of deciphering your T-line, I just

    12 don't know if there is any reference there with respect

    13 to you having drinks?

    14 A. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't.

    15 And it wasn't drinks, I had a drink, and a small bit of

    16 a glass later on.

    17 Q. I stand corrected. A drink and then a refill

    18 of whatever two-thirds you said, or whatever?

    19 A. About a third, I think.

    20 Q. Can you show the Court where on Exhibit 55,

    21 when you were doing the aide-memoires, where it

    22 indicates that you also engaged in a drink with

    23 Dr. Kovacevic during this interview?

    24 A. Sorry? On the aide-memoire where does it say

    25 that I was having a drink?

  77. 1 Q. I know you mention about Dr. Kovacevic. I

    2 just want to know how thorough and complete this is and

    3 how thorough and complete your notes are, and I just

    4 couldn't find it so if you could help us out?

    5 A. Oh, the consumption of drinks is from my

    6 memory.

    7 Q. So is it fair to say that it doesn't appear

    8 on your hand-written contemporaneous notes on February

    9 1996 and it doesn't appear anywhere on Exhibit 55 which

    10 is your aide-memoires; correct?

    11 A. No, I can remember when -- I can remember --

    12 I can remember the bottle emptying.

    13 Q. Now, you do state, however, interestingly

    14 enough, and Exhibit 55 I think was attached to the

    15 indictment, if I think the Prosecutor has indicated

    16 that to us, it does reflect that Dr. Kovacevic had some

    17 drinks; correct?

    18 A. Indeed. He had a few drinks.

    19 Q. Now, before we get into how many and all

    20 that, was this interview with Dr. Kovacevic an

    21 important interview for you?

    22 A. It was reasonably important, yes. I would

    23 say it was.

    24 Q. In fact, sir, isn't it true that it was

    25 critical, for purposes of your professional duties, in

  78. 1 terms of writing the article?

    2 A. It was one of four or five interviews I was

    3 anxious to do with a view to fulfilling the

    4 assignment. That one part of the twelve articles, yes.

    5 Q. Those four or five interviews then, and we'll

    6 expand it, those four or five interviews that you had

    7 in February of 1996, were they of critical importance

    8 to you?

    9 A. They were important to me. Critical is your

    10 word, not mine.

    11 Q. Nonetheless important, and that's fair.

    12 A. All interviews are important.

    13 Q. Of course. But you didn't have a cameraman

    14 with you and you didn't have a video cassette player

    15 with you; correct?

    16 A. I never use a cameraman or a video cassette.

    17 I'm a newspaper reporter, not a television reporter.

    18 Q. I understand that. I just want to know how

    19 important it was. Was it not, sir, in your opinion,

    20 important enough, this meeting with these four or five

    21 individuals, to come and meet with them, and we covered

    22 the time frame when you met with the Prosecutor but I'm

    23 asking you in this context as well: Wasn't it, sir,

    24 important enough for you for this critical interview,

    25 when you did your aide-memoires to at least have with

  79. 1 you and consult after having a brandy and a third to be

    2 able to recollect and have that tape recorder play so

    3 we could determine what it is exactly that

    4 Dr. Kovacevic said to you and what it is you said to

    5 Dr. Kovacevic?

    6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ostojic, this is all by way

    7 of comment. The witness has dealt with that matter.

    8 He said that he didn't have any of this and he's giving

    9 his evidence from the notes which he made and the

    10 aide-memoire.

    11 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    12 Q. Going back and I want to direct your

    13 attention again to page 3 of Exhibit 55 where we were

    14 talking about this collective madness. Sir, you

    15 mentioned Gutman (sic) a little bit about his

    16 Marxist principles and the Court inquired a little bit,

    17 and are you familiar at all with the Communist

    18 teachings at all about collective responsibility?

    19 A. Could I just perhaps say that I think you

    20 don't mean Gutman, who is a colleague of mine who works

    21 for the News Day newspaper of New York and Mr. Deichmann

    22 who is the man that thinks that we fabricated the

    23 camps.

    24 Q. Thank you. I stand corrected. With respect

    25 to Mr. Deichmann, there was a discussion about, and you

  80. 1 were going to elicit Marxism, or whatever was in your

    2 answer will stand on the record. When we talk about

    3 collective madness here, and I think it's a relevant

    4 point, are you familiar with what collective

    5 responsibility is within the Communist principles at

    6 all?

    7 A. I'm familiar with the term as used in

    8 Communist and other societies, including Western

    9 countries.

    10 Q. Share with us that which you know about that.

    11 A. Collective responsibility, as I understand

    12 it, means, for instance, that in the Cabinet of my

    13 country, a Minister has -- is collectively responsible

    14 for the activities of the Cabinet. In the Communist

    15 system, as I understand it, it's a long time since I

    16 was a student, but as I understand it, in the Communist

    17 system, that idea of collective responsibility is more

    18 entrenched, the collectivity closer-bonded than in a

    19 Western political system.

    20 Q. Now, directing your attention again to

    21 16.07.23, when you said Dr. Kovacevic stated, quote.

    22 And you're at this time as a point of reference quoting

    23 Dr. Kovacevic and stating that he purportedly said:

    24 "If I was to be acquitted of being part of this

    25 collective madness, that would not be right, but I

  81. 1 would want to ask myself what my part in it was."

    2 And then I'd like for you to compare it to

    3 the page 3 of Exhibit 55 where he discusses with the

    4 word "if someone acquitted me." Can you read that,

    5 keeping in mind that we're looking at the screen as to

    6 what he said?

    7 A. Yes. My testimony from the other day is, as

    8 I recalled it, from memory, reading from this paper in

    9 front of me, which I do recognise, it says: "If

    10 someone acquitted me, saying that I was not a member of

    11 that collective madness, then I would have to admit

    12 that this was not true." And then he continues: "But

    13 I would want to think about how much I was part of

    14 it." And the rest you can read.

    15 Q. Now, if you could go to your contemporaneous

    16 notes taken of the February -- of the February '96

    17 meeting with Dr. Kovacevic? Can you just let me know

    18 when you get to the point that we're discussing here?

    19 A. It will take some -- if the Court could give me

    20 leave just to find it in the notes?

    21 Yes, I've found it.

    22 Q. And just for the record, if you could read

    23 for us the portion immediately preceding that just so

    24 we make sure we're at the right page?

    25 JUDGE MAY: Which page are we on, for a

  82. 1 start? Which page of the interview?

    2 MR. OSTOJIC: I don't know from his notes

    3 which page it is.

    4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Vulliamy, could you help us

    5 which page that is?

    6 A. Yes, indeed. One, two, it's the fourth page

    7 at the top of which is the T-line word "Perhaps" which

    8 is a vertical, a diagonal, another vertical, and a

    9 little circle.

    10 MR. OSTOJIC:

    11 Q. Now, where does it appear that we start to

    12 discuss --

    13 A. It's the -- well, in fact, the word is, it's

    14 about two-thirds of the way down, and it's a long hand

    15 word "If."

    16 Q. Can you read that into the record for us

    17 again, please?

    18 A. Yes. "If someone said I was not a member of

    19 the collective madness, I would say that is not true,

    20 but then I would like to think about how much. It's a

    21 fact. I was a member of the municipal government," and

    22 so on.

    23 Q. So this "if" starts by saying, "If someone

    24 said I was not a member of the collective madness,"

    25 right?

  83. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Now, look at your aide-memoires. How did you

    3 start it there?

    4 A. "If someone acquitted me ...."

    5 Q. You put "If someone acquitted me" on the

    6 document that was attached to the indictment, but it's

    7 not in this specific section that parallels your

    8 contemporaneous notes; correct?

    9 A. I didn't attach this to any indictment.

    10 Q. I know you may think you didn't --

    11 MR. KEEGAN: I'm going to object, Your

    12 Honour. That is extremely argumentative.

    13 JUDGE MAY: I agree.

    14 MR. OSTOJIC: I withdraw the comment, Your

    15 Honour.

    16 Q. Looking at your aide-memoires, sir, and

    17 specifically in this sentence here: "If someone said,"

    18 and then if you compare the original contemporaneous

    19 notes and those that were supplied to us as Exhibit 55

    20 by the office of the Prosecution, sir, it says, and you

    21 added -- I think you added because I think -- Exhibit

    22 55 is your document; right?

    23 A. It is, yes.

    24 Q. Okay. So you added the words "acquitted me";

    25 correct?

  84. 1 A. Yes. I think given the nature of the

    2 question, that's the sense of what he was trying to

    3 say.

    4 Q. And that's your interpretation; correct?

    5 A. That's my impression, yes.

    6 Q. Well, I want you to tell the Tribunal if you

    7 could point out for us where else did you place on

    8 Exhibit 55 your own interpretations, as you call them,

    9 of the conversation that you had with Dr. Kovacevic?

    10 A. Sorry? Where did I put my interpretations?

    11 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I'm going to

    12 object.

    13 JUDGE MAY: There's no need to object. He

    14 can't deal with that. If there is a particular point

    15 you want to put to the witness, do, but it's far too

    16 wide a question.

    17 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour.

    18 Q. If you continue on, sir, on this section, can

    19 you point for the Court, point out to the Court, where

    20 you talk about this Communist mistake?

    21 A. Yes. Which document do you want me to read

    22 from?

    23 Q. I'd like you to read the contemporaneous

    24 notes or as we've identified them as the

    25 contemporaneous notes?

  85. 1 A. The bit about Tadic -- "We lived in 50 years

    2 of collective responsibility. That was the Communist

    3 mistake. If everything is okay in this hospital, then

    4 clearly I am responsible. If things do not -- if

    5 things are not good in this hospital, then I am

    6 guilty."

    7 Q. Continue to read that portion, if you don't

    8 mind?

    9 A. "I learned that all Germans are killers.

    10 Then I went to Germany and found it was not true.

    11 Every man has his good side and its bad side. Where he

    12 is is the important thing."

    13 Q. Now, I'd like for you, sir, to flip to the

    14 next page of your contemporaneous notes.

    15 Excuse me. If we may have just one moment?

    16 A point came up for clarification.

    17 If I may? Just direct Mr. Vulliamy -- and I

    18 apologise for this -- to go back one page because I

    19 want to cover this area with respect to this collective

    20 madness that we were just talking about where the

    21 acquittal issue came up?

    22 A. Certainly.

    23 Q. So we're going back to page 3 now, just

    24 trying to help everyone along, due to my error.

    25 Now, if you recall your testimony with

  86. 1 Mr. Keegan, nowhere in your testimony specifically the

    2 hour 16.07.28 through 16.08.38 do you discuss, when

    3 you're talking about this issue, that particular

    4 phrase, "We lived for 50 years in a society of

    5 collective responsibility, and that was the Communist

    6 mistake." It's not mentioned during your testimony.

    7 Is it, sir, because you just didn't recall it; would

    8 that be fair?

    9 A. I didn't, no.

    10 Q. Now, if we can skip to page 4? If you could

    11 skip to midway portion of page 4. Do you see it with

    12 the little -- it says "I think you earlier testified

    13 ash something his sweater"?

    14 JUDGE MAY: It's page 5, in fact?

    15 A. I think I've got different pages than you,

    16 sir.

    17 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

    18 Q. It's the fifth page.

    19 A. This is a bit -- sorry, Your Honour.

    20 JUDGE MAY: It's the notes.

    21 A. It's the notes, sorry. Yes.

    22 MR. OSTOJIC:

    23 Q. Now, are you there where we talk about the

    24 ash fell his sweater?

    25 A. Yes.

  87. 1 Q. I just want to try to find it on the

    2 aide-memoires where they are in this section. It says

    3 Bosnia something something. Can you read that into the

    4 record?

    5 A. Bosnia was not a State.

    6 Q. Now, where is that in relation to Exhibit 55?

    7 A. The cigarette ash is mentioned on page 3 when

    8 he's talking about The Hague. That's just at the top

    9 of -- yes, the reference in the typewritten document is

    10 just -- well, is actually just a paragraph above where

    11 it appears in the notes. You can see the top of that

    12 page starts "This institution at the H," which is The

    13 Hague.

    14 Q. Why don't we read that section, if you

    15 don't -- sorry.

    16 A. That's where this -- to answer your question,

    17 that's where the cigarette ash reference comes in the

    18 aide-memoire.

    19 Q. I see it and we'll get to that. Why don't we

    20 read that section and from your contemporaneous notes,

    21 if you don't mind?

    22 A. "This institution at the H is a new

    23 institution. They have to show if they are serious. I

    24 think it's more of a political game than anything

    25 else. It's more a game than a serious (something). He

  88. 1 is (something) man, Clinton and Milosevic."

    2 Q. Let me stop you there. If you look at your

    3 aide-memoires, when you say he is an old man, who is he

    4 referring to? Himself? That Kovacevic is an old man?

    5 A. No. Well, I've read the shorthand note and

    6 the aide-memoire, as I've said, was compiled after a

    7 conversation with my colleague, and I'm -- it would be

    8 cheating because I can see from here that he's talking

    9 about Richard Goldstone who was then the Prosecutor.

    10 There's presumably a question in there or he mentions

    11 Goldstone or Roger mentions Goldstone and I don't have

    12 it in the shorthand note.

    13 Q. That was my question. It's not anywhere in

    14 the shorthand note; correct?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Now, what does it say immediately after that,

    17 after Milosevic is cited and Clinton.

    18 A. In which document?

    19 Q. On your contemporaneous notes.

    20 A. Tito was a ruler, and it continues on. Then

    21 it says --

    22 Q. Let me just stop you, if I may? I don't see

    23 that contemporaneous with your note there, the

    24 aide-memoires. Do you see it coming right after

    25 Clinton and Milosevic?

  89. 1 A. No, I don't. This isn't meant to be a

    2 transcript. If it's been described as one by somebody

    3 else other than me, that is incorrect. This is an

    4 organisation of the material. Here he goes, he's

    5 talking about Tito, I stop writing down what he's

    6 saying. These notes are not a transcript of the

    7 conversation, of every word that is said, and this is

    8 not an exact transcript. The notes resume at the

    9 following line, "But the establishment of Bosnia.

    10 Bosnia was established," da na na.

    11 Q. Continue to read that for us, please?

    12 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to interrupt on a

    13 point. An aide-memoire is a lawyer's term and I think

    14 described first of all by Mr. Ostojic in that way.

    15 It's the way that lawyers would look at it. How would

    16 you describe, Mr. Vulliamy, this document?

    17 A. This document?

    18 JUDGE MAY: The typewritten one which we've

    19 called an aide-memoire. How would you describe it?

    20 A. I'd describe it as notes that I make that

    21 organise the rather haphazard -- I mean, the

    22 conversation, like any conversation, goes round and

    23 round, the themes come and go, they appear and

    24 reappear. There is discussion, there are questions

    25 that illuminate what is in the notes. Otherwise, you

  90. 1 can have a paragraph that starts "It" something. It

    2 doesn't make any sense on its own. As soon as I could

    3 get to a computer, what I did was typed up what I

    4 thought were the pertinent sections of the conversation

    5 and tried to organise them thematically in such a way

    6 that I could use to write with.

    7 Aide-memoire, it was -- I didn't realise that

    8 it was a legal term. I'm not a lawyer, I'm a

    9 reporter. It's an attempt to organise, for my benefit,

    10 the material in a way that contains what are -- seem to

    11 be the important passages, organised thematically so I

    12 could write an article based on the conversation. If

    13 that's helpful, Your Honour.

    14 MR. OSTOJIC: May I address the Court for a

    15 moment? Your Honour, I believe that the aide-memoire's

    16 comment was attributed to me in my inquiry. I believe

    17 the Office of the Prosecutor may stipulate to this. It

    18 is not my word and it was not used by me.

    19 Mr. Vulliamy, I think the record will definitively show

    20 that he described the document initially as being an

    21 aide-memoire, and I'm merely using his words and I'm

    22 stumbling through using them because I'm not familiar

    23 necessarily with that word, and respectfully, I know

    24 it's been a long week, I just wanted to point that out.

    25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ostojic, I did not intend any

  91. 1 criticism, I merely wanted to try and get perhaps a

    2 more accurate description. We are calling it an

    3 aide-memoire. It is a simple way to describe it. It

    4 describes it partly but not wholly. An aide-memoire is

    5 something which is written particularly for the purpose

    6 of recollecting a conversation. This also had another

    7 purpose, it appears, which was to organise the

    8 material. It's so that we could better follow the

    9 cross-examination. But no criticism of you at all.

    10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

    11 Q. Now, I just want to point this out, sir, that

    12 where you talk about the cigarette on the sweater, it's

    13 the sweater of Dr. Kovacevic you're talking about

    14 there; right?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. It might be a minor point, but I'd like to

    17 address it. Did you, in fact, add this section where

    18 you talk about the ash on the sweater, and I think you

    19 have three brandy. Did you add that after you left

    20 Dr. Kovacevic?

    21 A. No. That would be contemporaneous. It's a

    22 way of working, you put anything that isn't in

    23 quotations, observations, descriptions, and so on, in a

    24 margin.

    25 Q. Now, when you were doing the, if I may be

  92. 1 permitted to use the word aide-memoires, the next day

    2 in the evening, did you, as you were doing the

    3 aide-memoires, did you consult with and utilise your

    4 contemporaneous notes of the meeting?

    5 A. Yes, I did.

    6 Q. And when you were doing your aide-memoires,

    7 sir, how is it that the aide-memoire says "Fourth

    8 slivovic, cigar ash all over sweater and doesn't have a

    9 time but the contemporaneous notes has something

    10 different and does have a time. I'm perplexed by it.

    11 It's not a major point. And I apologise for inquiring

    12 on it?

    13 A. No, I agree with you it's not a major point.

    14 Q. How is it, though? Can you reconcile it for

    15 me?

    16 A. Maybe there was one slivovic at the beginning

    17 that isn't counted here. I'm afraid I can't answer

    18 that.

    19 Q. What I'm curious to know is if you had this

    20 document with you and you were typing up or putting in

    21 these aide-memoires, as we've called them, in here, how

    22 could it be that you've made that mistake?

    23 A. Well, I don't think it's a mistake. He's had

    24 three before 10.30, there's a fourth here, I don't know

    25 how many he'd had at any point on this page, and,

  93. 1 actually, I don't know at what point while writing that

    2 page I'd have written that note in the margin. I've

    3 put it at the top of what is that page of shorthand

    4 note having come to it first turning the page. But

    5 three or four during that page and maybe the one

    6 opposite, I don't know.

    7 Q. And you don't have the time there either as a

    8 point of reference to note on your aide-memoires

    9 whether it was in the morning, late morning, afternoon,

    10 evening, do you?

    11 A. Well, no. It was all in the morning.

    12 Q. But I note that in your contemporaneous notes

    13 on the side added from the text placed there -- I don't

    14 mean to give too much significance to the word "added"

    15 at this time -- but placed on the side there you have

    16 the time; correct?

    17 A. Placed on the side it says three brandies

    18 before 10.30. That is to say I don't know at which

    19 point during that page, those notes, I would have put

    20 that observation in the margin.

    21 Q. Now, sir, can you flip to page 8 of your

    22 contemporaneous notes. Last page for the record. And

    23 if you could flip to the fifth page of the

    24 aide-memoires? Now, the last page of the aide-memoires

    25 that you're looking at which is page 6, so the entirety

  94. 1 of page 6 and the bottom portion of page 5 of the

    2 aide-memoires, Exhibit 55, on this page 8, on the

    3 bottom portion, where does that section begin, if you

    4 could point that out on your contemporaneous notes?

    5 A. Sorry. Where does the ...

    6 Q. Where does the bottom portion of page 6 --

    7 strike that. Where does the bottom portion of page 5

    8 of the aide-memoires and the entirety of page 6 on the

    9 aide-memoires, where does it appear since apparently

    10 it's on the last page of the aide-memoires, I'm

    11 assuming it's on the last page here, where on the last

    12 page do you see that near the bottom? Point it out.

    13 A. It doesn't appear in the notes. This was a

    14 conversation between my colleague and Dr. Kovacevic as

    15 we prepared to leave.

    16 Q. So is it fair to state that that entire

    17 section on the bottom portion of page 5 and the entire

    18 portion of page 6 doesn't appear anywhere on those

    19 reliable notes that you took that were contemporaneous

    20 with the conversation that you had with Dr. Kovacevic

    21 in February of 1996?

    22 A. That is correct. That section from "Do you

    23 know the prisoners -- did you know the prisoners in

    24 Omarska" is from memory the day after and in

    25 consultation with my colleague.

  95. 1 Q. Knowing that, what else can you share with us

    2 with respect to the aide-memoires that were in

    3 consultation with your colleague as you sit here? Any

    4 other glaring sections, sir? And take a moment, if you

    5 will, just to peruse the document?

    6 A. Well, I'd need some time to look through it

    7 all.

    8 Q. If I may make that suggestion?

    9 A. Yeah, I mean, there's one certainly, which is

    10 the bit about, at the beginning, Roger is doing most of

    11 the talking, and he's talking about why the Serbs were

    12 fighting, what they were scared of, being afraid of the

    13 Muslims, Dr. Kovacevic is talking about the Muslims who

    14 have left the municipality, where they are, why he's

    15 afraid of them, and he comes up with this, I think

    16 rather astute remark about snakes and lizards. That is

    17 in Roger's -- during a conversation at the beginning

    18 that he was having with the doctor and which I then

    19 place in the aide-memoire during the conversation that

    20 I was having with him about Jasenovac. That's one that

    21 comes to mind but that's just me looking at the top.

    22 As I say, this -- I'm calling it the

    23 aide-memoire -- these typewritten notes are a

    24 composite. That's one. And there may be others.

    25 Q. There may be other what? Other notes?

  96. 1 A. No, no. Other occasions on which, in

    2 consultation with my colleague, I was able to type a

    3 document that made more sense thematically than the

    4 notes which were obviously taken in the order that the

    5 conversation was had.

    6 Q. If we just could note for the record,

    7 although it might be somewhat obvious, none of the

    8 questions that appear or none of the questions that you

    9 asked Dr. Kovacevic, they do not appear on your

    10 contemporaneous notes; right?

    11 A. No, they don't.

    12 Q. And the introductory passages that we read

    13 yesterday from Exhibits 55 and 56, they likewise don't

    14 appear on the contemporaneous notes, do they?

    15 A. Sorry, the ...

    16 Q. Introductory language that you have on

    17 Exhibit 55.

    18 A. Forgive me, Your Honour. Which is Exhibit

    19 55?

    20 Q. It's to your right, if I may direct the

    21 witness.

    22 A. Oh, this?

    23 Q. Yes.

    24 A. The ...

    25 Q. Introductory paragraphs.

  97. 1 A. No, this is a recollection and this is

    2 setting it in context.

    3 Q. You testified and we were unclear when I

    4 reviewed the transcript from yesterday, and forgive me

    5 for going back to this issue, the disk that you had,

    6 that you used to type up what was ultimately provided

    7 to the office of the Prosecution, and then you used the

    8 word in that discussion, the original. Were you

    9 talking about the original or original summary of your

    10 conversation with Dr. Kovacevic that would have been on

    11 that disk?

    12 A. Original summary? I'm talking about --

    13 Q. Original aide-memoire, sorry.

    14 A. I'm talking about this document, yes.

    15 Q. Is this the only -- is this the document --

    16 if I were to one day obtain that disk, and I know you

    17 promised -- or you mentioned that you are going to

    18 endeavour to find it for us, if you find that disk, is

    19 it your testimony that that disk will be exactly like

    20 this document appears?

    21 A. When the disk left me, it would have had this

    22 and the conversation with Dr. Stakic and two other

    23 conversations on it.

    24 Q. And the two other conversations were with

    25 Major Milutinovic; correct?

  98. 1 A. Correct.

    2 Q. And the fourth one was with whom?

    3 A. Nikola Koljevic.

    4 Q. And you had those two conversations with

    5 those two individuals before you actually met with

    6 Dr. Kovacevic; correct?

    7 A. No. As I recall, that with Major Milutinovic

    8 was the day before, and that with Professor Koljevic

    9 was the morning after -- sorry that with Professor

    10 Koljevic was two days after on a different visit to

    11 Banja Luka.

    12 Q. Two days after your conversation with

    13 Dr. Kovacevic; right?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Can you look through your contemporaneous

    16 notes for me, the couple of pages before

    17 Dr. Kovacevic's contemporaneous notes?

    18 A. Two pages before Dr. Kovacevic's --

    19 Q. A couple.

    20 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, we're now going

    21 into material that is beyond the scope of direct, and

    22 this is of course was material that was -- issues that

    23 were raised in closed. I'm just concerned where we're

    24 going here with this.

    25 MR. OSTOJIC: As a point of reference, I want

  99. 1 to verify, Your Honour, exactly whether or not there

    2 were notes taken -- and I'm tipping my hand, which is

    3 fair, and that's fine -- with respect to Professor

    4 Koljevic's meeting, whether he has notes of that

    5 meeting before the notes that he took now of

    6 Dr. Kovacevic or after or the notes of -- because we

    7 had seen one thing at a private session that we had

    8 with the office, so that's why I'm inquiring.

    9 JUDGE MAY: You can ask if the notes were

    10 taken.

    11 A. Yes, and I'm happy to answer. The two pages

    12 before the interview with Dr. Kovacevic are headed

    13 "Milutinovic," and they're with Major Milutinovic.

    14 The pages that follow Dr. Kovacevic are the interview

    15 with Mr. Stakic, then again -- oh, then early next

    16 morning, there's an interview with another gentleman,

    17 and then sometime later, Professor Nikola Koljevic.

    18 MR. OSTOJIC:

    19 Q. If I may direct the witness to go to the

    20 materials immediately prior to where he mentioned the

    21 two pages of his conversation with Major Milutinovic,

    22 and if he could identify -- and I ask him to keep in

    23 mind the Court's ruling on the limitations of this, so

    24 I don't want him to blurt anything out that's

    25 inappropriate or something, but I want to know if

  100. 1 there's any mention, prior to Major Milutinovic, of

    2 Professor Koljevic's.

    3 A. Any mention of Mr. -- let me --

    4 JUDGE MAY: What is it that you want so we

    5 can follow?

    6 MR. OSTOJIC: Any summary of notes relating

    7 to Dr. Koljevic that may appear prior to Major

    8 Milutinovic's meeting. Thank you.

    9 A. If it helps the Court, what I could do is

    10 work backwards from the beginning of the Kovacevic

    11 interview, and using my discretion, tell you what's on

    12 which page.

    13 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you could help me.

    14 What's the point of all this?

    15 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, I think it really, to be

    16 honest -- to be candid with the Court, as I think we

    17 all have been here, when we were at the conference, we

    18 believe several of those pages were noted. His

    19 testimony now, in our opinion, Your Honour, was

    20 somewhat inconsistent. I could move along if the Court

    21 wishes me to move along --

    22 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we are going to be

    23 helped by this.

    24 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough, Your Honour.

    25 Q. Sir, if I were to tell you that we attempted

  101. 1 to examine your specific contemporaneous notes with

    2 your aide-memoires, which is Exhibit 55, and if I tell

    3 you that we found approximately -- or, actually, over

    4 50 inconsistencies, some minor -- and we noted the very

    5 big paragraph and we noted the word "acquittal," would

    6 you find that to be surprising?

    7 A. No, I wouldn't. There are a number of

    8 considerations. One is the need to organise

    9 things thematically. The other consideration is this,

    10 that Dr. Kovacevic is an articulate man, and quotations

    11 of articulate people should not always be left with the

    12 grammar of the translator, so that if -- you know, if

    13 the translator says, as it does in the shorthand notes,

    14 "Every man has its good side and its bad side," you

    15 turn that into "his good side and his bad side." So

    16 this is not intended to be an exact transcript of the

    17 shorthand.

    18 Q. A couple more questions, if I may? You

    19 discussed a little bit with Mr. Keegan this

    20 snake-lizard analogy, if you will; do you recall that?

    21 A. Yes, I thought it was astute --

    22 Q. If I could introduce for just one moment, and

    23 if you could find it for us in your contemporaneous

    24 notes, and I'll direct the Court and your attention

    25 that that section seems to appear on page 3, bottom

  102. 1 portion. Can you tell us, Mr. Vulliamy, where the

    2 lizard-snake discussion appears on the contemporaneous

    3 notes?

    4 A. Yes. I think I already have, actually. It's

    5 in the first bit of the conversation which is mostly

    6 between my colleague and Dr. Kovacevic, of which I took

    7 some notes but by no means complete, and they're

    8 talking about the -- why the Serbs went to war, they

    9 are talking about the Serbian fear, the Second World

    10 War, and Mr. Kovacevic's own background, and I thought

    11 the point he made about snakes and lizards was

    12 particularly astute. The conversation that I am having

    13 with him later on about his background comes in later,

    14 as you can see, and I put it down there in my

    15 reorganisation of the material because I didn't want to

    16 lose it. I thought it was a rather astute point.

    17 Q. And, sir, I just wanted an answer to my

    18 question. I'll try to rephrase it a little better. On

    19 page 3 of Exhibit 55, this issue with the cigarette ash

    20 over the sweater, we know that that appears on page 5

    21 of your contemporaneous notes, right? "Cigarette ash

    22 on sweater"?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. "Three brandies," you note the time, and then

    25 here you have four Slivovic; do you see that?

  103. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Now, the three of your were -- you, your

    3 colleague, and Dr. Kovacevic -- were there; correct?

    4 A. And the translator.

    5 Q. Who is that translator?

    6 A. It's a man called -- actually, I'd rather not

    7 use his name, if that's okay? He came from Bijeljina

    8 and was an experienced man.

    9 Q. Sir, if I may just inquire, on the

    10 translator, a question or two. Was that the same

    11 translator that accompanied you in 1992?

    12 A. No, it wasn't.

    13 Q. In fact, just so my question doesn't later --

    14 or a claim doesn't be made on my question that it

    15 wasn't extensive. You had two translators in 1992.

    16 Was the translator that you had in February of 1996 any

    17 of the two that you had in '92?

    18 A. No, neither of them.

    19 Q. Now, we're looking on page 5 of your

    20 contemporaneous notes, and respectfully, on page 3 of

    21 Exhibit 55, where we're talking about "fourth

    22 Slivovic, cig. ash all over sweater." Do you see that?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Show me here where, immediately thereafter or

    25 so you discuss -- strike that. Why don't you be kind

  104. 1 enough, because when I asked you the question what page

    2 it was, you gave us your answer, but I didn't catch the

    3 page number. Just tell me what page number on your

    4 contemporaneous notes does the snake-lizard analogy

    5 appear?

    6 A. At the beginning.

    7 Q. Okay. I know the beginning.

    8 A. Page 1.

    9 Q. Page 1. Where on page 1?

    10 A. In the first -- the second paragraph, the

    11 first big paragraph.

    12 Q. It's underscored, isn't it?

    13 A. It's underlined, yeah.

    14 Q. Now as a word --

    15 A. Some of it is.

    16 Q. Can you read the words that appear right

    17 immediately before "snake" that I see in the middle

    18 right-hand portion of page 1 of your contemporaneous

    19 notes?

    20 A. "When you are unlikely or unlucky."

    21 Q. Then you may proceed to read that, please?

    22 A. "When a snake bites you, you are afraid of

    23 little lizards, but a lizard is" -- sorry. "A lizard

    24 is still a lizard but a snake is a snake. I am worried

    25 about the future."

  105. 1 Q. You testified through questioning by

    2 Mr. Keegan, would it be fair to say, a little broader

    3 on that discussion, and you put quotes around certain

    4 things on the snake. Would it be fair to say, sir,

    5 that that was your interpretation during that testimony

    6 of Mr. Keegan (sic) wherein you described what it was

    7 that Dr. Kovacevic purportedly meant when he was

    8 discussing with you the lizard-snake?

    9 A. Well, he was discussing it with my colleague,

    10 actually, who was opening the conversation, and they

    11 were talking about the fact that the Serbs had been

    12 persecuted by the Croats and that he feared the

    13 Muslims, and the gist was -- and he was talking about

    14 the Serbian experience around the area and in the camps

    15 -- I wasn't paying much heed to that -- well, I was

    16 listening -- and they were talking about the fact

    17 that -- I mean the gist was, my interpretation was, and

    18 I think it's an accurate one, that the Serbs had been

    19 bitten by, if you'll pardon me for putting it this way,

    20 "the Croatian snake," but that once you're bitten by a

    21 snake, you're afraid of a lizard. And Roger asked him,

    22 "So are the Muslims the lizards? Are you scared of

    23 the Muslim lizards?" And he said "Yes."

    24 Q. Where does it say that in your

    25 contemporaneous notes or in your notes that you

  106. 1 prepared the night after this meeting where he states,

    2 "I am scared of the Muslims"?

    3 A. That was one of Roger's questions, that he's

    4 scared of the Muslims. He's talking about that and, I,

    5 actually, before you asked me about this section,

    6 volunteered it, as the example that came first to mind

    7 of the -- how this document was reordered after a

    8 conversation with Roger who was having that -- during

    9 whose exchange with Dr. Kovacevic this, I think, rather

    10 illuminating line about snakes and lizards came up.

    11 Q. I couldn't disagree with you more. I could

    12 not disagree with you more, and here's why: We went

    13 through your closed session testimony on the time, and

    14 if I told you this, Mr. Vulliamy, that the only section

    15 that seems to be taken out of context is specifically

    16 this section, and that's the only section -- everything

    17 else follows with respect to the time frames, and I

    18 invite, obviously the Tribunal, as well as the Office

    19 of the Prosecution, to go through that closed session

    20 carefully and to examine that.

    21 What else, as you sit here, do you know was

    22 taken in different parts other than this section on the

    23 snakes?

    24 A. I don't know. I haven't been through it all.

    25 Q. Now, was this your question on the snakes or

  107. 1 was it the question of your colleague?

    2 JUDGE MAY: He said it was the colleague.

    3 MR. OSTOJIC: That's my point. I just wanted

    4 to recollect on that, didn't want to try to distort it.

    5 Q. Can you decipher for us, looking on Exhibit

    6 55, which questions you asked and which questions your

    7 colleagues asked -- or your colleague asked?

    8 A. No. I'd have recalled it at the time, now

    9 I'm afraid I don't. By and large, towards the

    10 beginning of the conversation, the majority of the

    11 questions are those of my colleague; towards the end,

    12 the majority are mine. And as I've already testified,

    13 this very last section is a conversation between him

    14 and Dr. Kovacevic after we had stood up and made to

    15 leave.

    16 Q. I want to point out one last thing, if I

    17 may? On page 4 of the aide-memoires, the bottom

    18 portion where there's a discussion about hurricane, do

    19 you see that, five or six lines from the bottom?

    20 A. I'm not sure that I'm on the right page.

    21 Could you give me the page again, sir, sorry?

    22 Q. On the aide-memoires, Exhibit 55, it would be

    23 page 4. Are you there with me?

    24 A. Yeah.

    25 Q. The word "hurricane" is what we're focusing

  108. 1 on here. Do you see that?

    2 A. Yeah.

    3 Q. Do you see that? I'm sorry?

    4 A. Yeah.

    5 Q. Thank you. Can you just find this section

    6 first on your contemporaneous notes?

    7 A. Yes. Got it.

    8 Q. Can you direct us to the page of the

    9 contemporaneous notes, please?

    10 A. It's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven.

    11 Q. So it would be page 7; correct?

    12 A. Yeah, the penultimate.

    13 Q. I'm sorry?

    14 A. The penultimate page.

    15 Q. Where on the page?

    16 A. The penultimate page.

    17 Q. Can you direct us to that section where you

    18 mention the word "hurricane blowing to and fro"?

    19 A. Yes, it's just after he's giving the numbers

    20 of people "killed" in Omarska as opposed to "died" in

    21 Omarska, and you can see a sign, which is like a

    22 diagonal, then straight, and then a little circle

    23 meaning "its" and the words "wind tunnel," indeed in

    24 longhand.

    25 Q. Very well. I'm looking for the word

  109. 1 "hurricane" at the moment, but we'll get to wind

    2 tunnel in a second. So where is the "hurricane"? Does

    3 it appear there?

    4 A. "Hurricane" isn't there, actually. I shall

    5 read what I've written in shorthand --

    6 Q. That's all I want to know, whether it

    7 appeared there or not.

    8 A. Yes. Dr. Kovacevic used two different words,

    9 and the second with considerable emphasis, and I spoke

    10 to the translator afterwards and thought that

    11 "hurricane" would do credit both to the point he was

    12 making and to his own command of language. The

    13 repetition of "wind" -- he didn't repeat the same word,

    14 and I consulted with the translator about that. We

    15 were talking in the car that little bit about the wind

    16 blowing to and fro, and the translator filled us in.

    17 Q. So it was the translator who said, "Really,

    18 this 'wind tunnel' is 'a hurricane'"?

    19 A. Yes, he did. I mean -- please understand,

    20 this conversation was fairly surprising, and we talked

    21 about it on the way from Prijedor, and the -- that line

    22 stuck in my mind particularly, and the translator said

    23 he had used a different word.

    24 MR. OSTOJIC: May I have a moment, Your

    25 Honour?

  110. 1 Thank you for your patience.

    2 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, in looking at your testimony

    3 and consulting here, what else did the translator or

    4 interpreter assist you with on the car ride home?

    5 A. I think that was the only main point.

    6 Q. Well, what other minor points, if you could

    7 share with us?

    8 A. I don't remember, I'm afraid.

    9 Q. But you do remember there were some minor

    10 points; correct?

    11 A. Well, I don't, actually, but I remember us

    12 talking about --

    13 Q. Who else did you consult with after the

    14 meeting with Dr. Kovacevic? You mentioned the

    15 interpreter, you mentioned your colleague. Anyone else

    16 before you wrote the aide-memoires?

    17 A. No. I got back to Zagreb and told a friend

    18 about what a surprise it was, and, of course, I

    19 consulted with my office as soon as I got to a

    20 telephone.

    21 Q. Now, with respect to Dr. Kovacevic's

    22 sobriety, and we're talking about this page 8, how

    23 would you have described it -- page 7 where we're at,

    24 how would you have described it at this point?

    25 A. I'll be guided by the Court on that answer.

  111. 1 I mean, the bottle of brandy was empty.

    2 JUDGE MAY: What impression did he make on

    3 you?

    4 A. He was not sober.

    5 MR. OSTOJIC:

    6 Q. And at this point, sir, in the meeting, page

    7 7, where you're telling us that he was not sober, isn't

    8 that the first time you actually put in quotes -- and

    9 you were kind enough to share it with us in your prior

    10 answer -- where you said "killed" not "died"; do you

    11 see that?

    12 A. Yes. I don't see it at the moment, but I

    13 know exactly where you mean, yeah.

    14 Q. I'm inviting you to look.

    15 A. I've got it here.

    16 Q. So was it at that point that your testimony

    17 is that he was not sober?

    18 A. He's not sober by this point, no.

    19 Q. Can you cut it off for me anywhere and show

    20 me where you think, based on these eight pages, that

    21 you believe he was not sober?

    22 A. No, I can't draw a line between sobriety and

    23 non-sobriety, no.

    24 Q. Can you tell me approximately where it

    25 appears, if at all?

  112. 1 A. No, I can't really. I can only say

    2 courteously that he was becoming progressively less

    3 sober.

    4 Q. Do you record that anywhere, sir, on your

    5 contemporaneous notes, that your impression of

    6 Dr. Kovacevic at that point was that he was not sober?

    7 A. No, I don't on the contemporaneous notes,

    8 apart from this reference to the third glass, to the

    9 best of my knowledge, no. I'm relying, I think

    10 justifiably, on my memory there.

    11 Q. In your aide-memoires, do you record anywhere

    12 that you felt that Dr. Kovacevic was not sober?

    13 A. On the aide-memoire?

    14 Q. Yes.

    15 A. Well, I'm putting in various glasses of

    16 brandy. I don't, at any point, I don't think say "He

    17 is drunk," but my recollection and my testimony is that

    18 he was by the end.

    19 Q. Now, you talk about this empty bottle at the

    20 end of the meeting. Was the bottle full when you

    21 started the meeting?

    22 A. I don't recall, but if it wasn't full, it was

    23 nearly full.

    24 Q. With respect to your aide-memoires -- strike

    25 that. With respect to the article that you wrote

  113. 1 subsequent to your conversation with Dr. Kovacevic, do

    2 you state in that article that Dr. Kovacevic was not

    3 sober during the meeting?

    4 A. I don't recall, actually, but I think so.

    5 Q. When was the article written, in terms of

    6 time frame, from your contemporaneous notes, from your

    7 aide-memoires and again, of course, the article?

    8 A. To the best of my recollection, about two or

    9 three days later. I sat down and wrote the article

    10 containing the interviews with Drs. Kovacevic, Stakic,

    11 and Professor Koljevic, perhaps two days.

    12 Q. Did Dr. Kovacevic have an attorney with him

    13 present during the conversation that you had with him

    14 in February 1996?

    15 A. No, he didn't.

    16 Q. Now, you also told us that Dr. Stakic was

    17 interviewed by you in February 1996. He was

    18 interviewed before or after Dr. Kovacevic?

    19 A. After.

    20 Q. Now, did Dr. Stakic have with him anyone

    21 during your conversations in February 1996?

    22 A. Yes, he did.

    23 Q. And, sir, we'll look at Exhibit 56, if you

    24 will, which I believe is the aide-memoires of

    25 Dr. Stakic. Thank you.

  114. 1 Do you have that before you?

    2 A. Yes, I do.

    3 Q. Now, in there, does it mention that

    4 Dr. Stakic at all had anyone present during the meeting

    5 with him?

    6 A. Could I just have a look, please?

    7 Q. By all means.

    8 A. Yes. There's a reference here to that man.

    9 His name is Kondic. He was variously introduced during

    10 the conversation with a number of titles.

    11 Q. Was one of his titles that he was an

    12 attorney?

    13 A. Yes, as I recall, it was.

    14 Q. Did you find that odd that there was an

    15 attorney there with Dr. Stakic?

    16 A. Well, no, because by then the conversation

    17 was getting pretty strange, and he was initially

    18 introduced as the assistant in the health centre.

    19 Perhaps he was both. I really don't know.

    20 Q. So to this day, you don't know what he was,

    21 whether he was an attorney, an assistant to the health

    22 centre, or anything else; correct?

    23 A. No.

    24 MR. OSTOJIC: Now, just if I may be given a

    25 bit of latitude to return to the bottle of brandy that

  115. 1 was discussed with Dr. Kovacevic, and I have four,

    2 possibly less questions on that.

    3 Q. Sir, how big was the bottle?

    4 A. The size of a wine bottle.

    5 Q. And you said it was near the top. Do you

    6 know how many shot glasses, if you will, are contained

    7 within that bottle?

    8 A. I don't, actually. But I should say ten or

    9 so.

    10 Q. Do you know, sir, how big the glass -- do you

    11 recall how large the glasses were that you and

    12 Dr. Kovacevic drank from?

    13 A. I don't very well, but if I could, again a

    14 guesstimate, and that's all I'm prepared to give the

    15 Court, that sort of height, a short drink glass. A

    16 cocktail glass, if you like.

    17 Q. It's fair to state that Dr. Kovacevic had the

    18 same-sized cocktail as you did; correct?

    19 A. Same sized glass.

    20 Q. Same sized glass. Thank you. Yes?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. In your aide-memoires with respect to

    23 Dr. Kovacevic, how many do you say, how many shots did

    24 he have or how many drinks?

    25 A. I've given it back, actually, but I think he

  116. 1 had seven or eight.

    2 Q. Can you point out to me -- and forgive me for

    3 having the registrar share with him that document

    4 again.

    5 Your memory is quite good, but I'll direct

    6 your attention to page 5 of your aide-memoires.

    7 A. Yeah.

    8 Q. You want to tell us it's seven or eight. On

    9 page 5, how many does it say in the middle of the page?

    10 A. Six.

    11 Q. Show the Court where you think your

    12 aide-memoires say that it was seven or eight?

    13 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't.

    14 MR. OSTOJIC:

    15 Q. I want to ask a question here relating to the

    16 lizard-snake, if you will. Two questions. Have you

    17 ever heard the phrase -- have you ever heard the phrase

    18 "Once bitten, twice shy"?

    19 A. Yes, I've heard that, yeah.

    20 Q. Can you explain what that means?

    21 A. I think it means that -- well, I'm not sure,

    22 actually. I think it means once you get stung, you're

    23 going to be reticent twice.

    24 Q. Is that what Dr. Kovacevic was talking about

    25 when he discussed the lizard-snake, in your words?

  117. 1 A. No. As I understand it, we were talking

    2 about the fact that once you get bitten by a snake,

    3 you're afraid of little lizards, and the context of the

    4 conversation, as I've said, was the experience of the

    5 Serbs and their persecution at the hands of the Croats

    6 and that that was making them scared of lizards, and we

    7 talked about Muslim lizards.

    8 Q. I know that's what you want to say. But I

    9 want you to go back to page 1 of Exhibit --

    10 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I'm going to object

    11 again. This is argumentative again. He's asking

    12 questions, he's getting answers.

    13 JUDGE MAY: No. You can ask the question,

    14 but we have been through this, you know? If there's

    15 any new point you can make --

    16 MR. OSTOJIC: I do. One last point.

    17 Q. If we can go to page 1 of that eight-page

    18 contemporaneous note, please?

    19 A. Yeah.

    20 Q. Do you attribute that comment at all with

    21 quotation marks, because I note in the closed session,

    22 if I may be permitted, that -- well, the closed session

    23 will speak for itself. Let me ask you now: Do you

    24 attribute any quotation marks around that comment?

    25 A. Yes. It starts off with a quotation before

  118. 1 the word "When," I close the quote after "lizards," but

    2 then cross out the closing of the quote because he

    3 still appears to be quoting.

    4 Q. When does he end the quote?

    5 A. It doesn't say.

    6 Q. Does there seem to be a line going after the

    7 word "snake" on the right-hand portion, a faint line on

    8 my copy; it may just be a photocopy error?

    9 A. You mean this little line going down the side

    10 of the page?

    11 Q. Yes.

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Where is that directing us to?

    14 A. I have no idea.

    15 Q. If I may ask you, sir, for purposes -- and we

    16 discussed earlier in your testimony distortion and

    17 things that are distorted or things that are

    18 misrepresented, et cetera. Would it be fair to say,

    19 sir, that when you added the word before -- or "if I am

    20 acquitted," that that would be a misrepresentation, a

    21 distortion, or how would you describe it for us?

    22 JUDGE MAY: Well, I think we've been through

    23 all that, and that's a matter of comment.

    24 Yes. Anything new?

    25 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, yes, Your Honour.

  119. 1 Q. Did you ever at any time, sir, study

    2 Shakespeare?

    3 A. No, I never studied Shakespeare since school,

    4 but I've read Shakespeare ...

    5 Q. Do you recall a phrase that people attribute

    6 to lawyers within writing of Shakespeare where he

    7 says: "The first thing we should do is kill all the

    8 lawyers?"

    9 JUDGE MAY: No, I think we're going a very

    10 long way from the subject of this case.

    11 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm going to connect it up,

    12 Your Honour.

    13 JUDGE MAY: That sounds like a comment.

    14 MR. OSTOJIC: No, I am going to connect it

    15 up, Your Honour. I just want to know him if he's

    16 familiar with it and ask for his understanding in this

    17 context.

    18 A. I don't know that line from Shakespeare. I

    19 don't recognise it from any Shakespeare play that I've

    20 read.

    21 MR. OSTOJIC:

    22 Q. I'm just telling you and I'm representing

    23 that that comment, having been used, and if you look at

    24 that comment right there, "The first thing we should do

    25 is kill all the lawyers," seems to suggest one thing,

  120. 1 but, in fact, when I was a young lawyer and someone

    2 made that comment and we researched it and we found

    3 that within -- I think it was Hamlet, but it may have

    4 been McBeth - forgive me for not being accurate - the

    5 phrase attributed to Shakespeare was that "If we want

    6 anarchy, the first thing we do is kill all the

    7 lawyers." Can you tell how different those two things

    8 can be and how they can be taken out of context?

    9 JUDGE MAY: I'm not going to allow this. I

    10 think it's Richard the II, but it's totally

    11 irrelevant. Let's go on. Have you got anything else

    12 for this witness?

    13 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour.

    14 Q. Sir, you mentioned --

    15 Your Honour, at this time, I need to have a

    16 moment to find an exhibit regarding the International

    17 Red Cross, and it's not at my fingertips and I may have

    18 left it --

    19 JUDGE MAY: Let's see if we can find it.

    20 Which one is it?

    21 MR. OSTOJIC: It's an exhibit that was

    22 attached, and I'm going to mispronounce the name,

    23 Mazowiecki was the --

    24 A. Mazowiecki. Tadeusz Mazowiecki.

    25 MR. OSTOJIC: I have it. It's Exhibit 52.

  121. 1 Thank you. But before we begin with Exhibit 52, I

    2 would ask the Court's permission, with this group of

    3 documents, to know whether we have been provided the

    4 date of the first exhibit that I believe Judge Cassese

    5 respectfully asked counsel to provide us with. I just

    6 need to know the date and I will need to inquire

    7 possibly depending on the date.

    8 MR. KEEGAN: I must confess, Your Honour,

    9 that over the course of the days, it slipped my mind to

    10 pull that. I remember it came up in Tadic and it was

    11 found -- I think it may even be in the record of the

    12 Tadic case, but I did neglect to pull it out. I

    13 apologise for that.

    14 JUDGE MAY: It can be provided in due course.

    15 MR. OSTOJIC:

    16 Q. Now, returning to Exhibit 52, that was an

    17 article written on or about October 23rd, 1992;

    18 correct? And I'll wait for you to get the document.

    19 Are you with me, Mr. Vulliamy?

    20 A. I'm getting there.

    21 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm just merely waiting for

    22 Mr. Vulliamy.

    23 Q. Sir, the question was: This article appeared

    24 on or about October 23rd, 1992; correct?

    25 A. As I've testified, I recall the report. I

  122. 1 recall several reports by Mr. Mazowiecki. This is an

    2 Agence France Presse report of the report, so I don't

    3 recall this actual report, but I do know what they're

    4 talking about.

    5 Q. Do you have an opinion, sir, of

    6 Mr. Mazowiecki at all that you've formulated over the

    7 years?

    8 A. What? Do I think he's a good man?

    9 Q. Do you think he's a good man? Do you think,

    10 when he reports, he reports accurately?

    11 JUDGE MAY: I'm not sure this is a matter for

    12 the witness.

    13 MR. OSTOJIC: I want to know if he's

    14 formulated that opinion. I just don't know if he has

    15 or hasn't.

    16 JUDGE MAY: You can ask the witness about the

    17 report, by all means, but not about the reporter.

    18 MR. OSTOJIC:

    19 Q. From the bottom -- thank you -- the third

    20 paragraph from the bottom one, it says: "Mazowiecki

    21 said that in Trnopolje ..." Are you with me?

    22 A. Mm-hmm.

    23 Q. Does he say in that paragraph that the

    24 Bosnian Muslim homes were destroyed or burned, or does

    25 he use the word "all"?

  123. 1 A. In this AFP report of what he said, it says

    2 "all." It's not in quotes.

    3 Q. If you look at the last paragraph, do you

    4 know who Paul Henri Morad is?

    5 A. I know who he is, but I've never met him.

    6 Q. Who he is?

    7 A. He's an official of the ICRC.

    8 Q. And, sir, do you see there, on the last

    9 sentence of paragraph 3, how the ICRC, in October 23rd,

    10 1998 (sic), describes this Trnopolje and the people

    11 that were in it; do you see the last two words? How

    12 does he describe them?

    13 A. Sorry. Which --

    14 Q. The very last two words, sir, on that

    15 article, Exhibit 52.

    16 A. "Detention camps."

    17 MR. OSTOJIC: I may have misspoken and said

    18 '98. I think the record's rather clear that Exhibit

    19 52 is October 23rd, 1992.

    20 Your Honour, at this point, I believe that it

    21 would be convenient to take a short recess so that I

    22 can consult to ensure that all the areas -- and consult

    23 with Dr. Kovacevic, if permitted -- to ensure that all

    24 the areas are covered -- as well as with my colleagues

    25 here -- are covered with respect to Mr. Vulliamy.

  124. 1 Maybe ten or fifteen, Your Honour, if I may? Because

    2 they're going to have to take him and ...

    3 JUDGE MAY: You can have ten minutes, but

    4 this examination of the witness must finish today and,

    5 of course, there's re-examination, and the Trial

    6 Chamber has some questions itself. So would you bear

    7 that in mind?

    8 MR. OSTOJIC: I will, and I am labouring

    9 forward, Your Honour. Thank you.

    10 JUDGE MAY: Ten minutes.

    11 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

    12 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

    13 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. Your Honour, I just

    14 want to -- so that you know where I'm going. I'm

    15 almost done. Maybe two or three questions on

    16 follow-up.

    17 I have to insist -- I have to request that I

    18 be permitted just to revisit for those two or three

    19 questions the proverb that was put in quotes of the

    20 lizard and the snake, and we hope to put it in context,

    21 but we just want to be clear on that. May I?

    22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If possible, you can

    23 confine your questions to ten minutes?

    24 MR. OSTOJIC: I will. No longer than that.

    25 Thank you.

  125. 1 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, was this a proverb, that you

    2 put in quotes, about the snakes and the lizards?

    3 A. I don't know, actually.

    4 Q. Did the interpreter that was with you, did

    5 she tell you at any time that it was a proverb?

    6 A. He, actually. I don't recall.

    7 Q. It's my understanding that the proverb was,

    8 and I'm going to read it in the record in the language

    9 that was given by Dr. Kovacevic, if I may?

    10 (Interpretation follows) "Whoever was bitten by a snake

    11 ends up being afraid of lizards too."

    12 JUDGE MAY: Could that be repeated, please,

    13 for the witness?

    14 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes. Are you asking me, Your

    15 Honour? (Interpretation follows) "Whoever was bitten

    16 by a snake ends up being afraid of lizards."

    17 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, would you agree with me, sir,

    18 someone who has an understanding of a couple different

    19 languages or knows a couple different languages, that

    20 proverbs interpreted from one language to possibly

    21 English -- let's take Italian, I believe that you said

    22 you're familiar with and have an understanding of. If

    23 take an Italian proverb and interpret it into English,

    24 it may lose some, all of its meaning; correct?

    25 A. That could happen, but this remark went on a

  126. 1 bit longer than the translation I got here.

    2 Q. And the remark that went on a little longer

    3 we covered in your contemporaneous notes where, in

    4 fact, it ends right after that, does it not?

    5 A. Well, I don't remember, actually. On the

    6 translation, I just heard the words "ends up being

    7 afraid of lizards," or something. I didn't actually

    8 get the first half. But it's something like that.

    9 Q. Could it be that the proverb may mean: Once

    10 bitten, second time shy?

    11 JUDGE MAY: You've asked that.

    12 MR. OSTOJIC: I have? Your Honour, at this

    13 time, with Mr. Vulliamy, and in light of our

    14 discussions with his contemporaneous notes, and we

    15 haven't deciphered them completely, we are working very

    16 methodically to obtain that, but at this time we do not

    17 believe we have any further questions of Mr. Vulliamy,

    18 and we will introduce as an exhibit his book and other

    19 items that we shared with the court today. Thank you.

    20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Keegan, any re-examination?

    21 MR. KEEGAN: Very brief, Your Honour.

    22 Re-examined by Mr. Keegan:

    23 MR. KEEGAN: First I would like to play the

    24 video marked Prosecution Exhibit 46, Your Honour. I

    25 did manage to get -- I hopefully got it sufficiently

  127. 1 cued during this short recess to clear up the issue

    2 of the fences and where this compound is.

    3 If you could run the tape, please?

    4 (Videotape played)

    5 If you could pause the tape, please?

    6 Q. Now, Mr. Vulliamy, you spoke first, in

    7 relation to the questions on cross-examination, about

    8 your approach to the top of the camp, the view that you

    9 saw, and what prompted you to head to that area.

    10 In relation to the footage you just saw, and

    11 I'm going to ask them to continue, and it's a very

    12 brief section here, could you indicate to the Court

    13 whether that is a representation of the view that first

    14 greeted you?

    15 Could you roll the tape at normal speed,

    16 please?

    17 A. It's a rather close shot.

    18 (Videotape played)

    19 MR. KEEGAN: Stop the film, please.

    20 Q. Would you like me to replay it?

    21 A. It's all right. There's some people with a

    22 camera, but I'm not sure who that is, walking towards

    23 it. This would seem to be a part of the compound.

    24 Yes. If you're asking what made us stop, it was, as

    25 I've said before, it was the sight of a crowd of men,

  128. 1 some of them in skeletal condition, behind a barbed

    2 wire fence, which is enough to make anyone stop.

    3 MR. KEEGAN: Could you run the tape all the

    4 way back to the beginning there and start it again?

    5 Q. And, please, if you'd note closely, the

    6 initial frames here, Mr. Vulliamy?

    7 (Videotape played)

    8 Stop the film, please.

    9 A. That's the -- yeah, that's the area that we

    10 were approaching, yes.

    11 MR. KEEGAN: If you could fast-forward to one

    12 minute two seconds, please.

    13 This goes to the issue of the question

    14 regarding the fences, Mr. Vulliamy.

    15 If you could back it up just a few frames,

    16 perhaps to, say, one minute? Thank you. Play from

    17 there, normal speed.

    18 (Videotape played)

    19 Stop the film there, please?

    20 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, can you describe what you see

    21 in that frame, please?

    22 A. I can see what appears to be the or a corner

    23 of the compound at which the barbed wire fence, which

    24 caught our attention, obviously, you can see old barbed

    25 wire reinforced by new, cleaner barbed wire, and that

  129. 1 fence behind which this man is standing then joins

    2 another fence at the corner, which appears to be what I

    3 call chain-link fencing of the kind used in gaols in

    4 the United States and, I believe, in Ulster.

    5 MR. KEEGAN: Run the tape at normal speed,

    6 please.

    7 (Videotape played)

    8 If you could now fast-forward the tape,

    9 please, to 1.24? We may actually be there. If you

    10 could pause the tape there?

    11 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, you were asked earlier

    12 questions about the length of the compound in which

    13 this was in. Does that assist you at all?

    14 A. Yes. Well, there we can see from the fence

    15 through which we were talking to the prisoners to the

    16 back of that compound within Trnopolje, the wall. I

    17 gave the Court my guesstimate of two and a half

    18 football fields, and it seems to be roughly

    19 corroborated here.

    20 MR. KEEGAN: If you could fast-forward the

    21 tape to 5 minutes, please, on the tape? And play at

    22 normal speed, please?

    23 (Videotape played)

    24 Now, does this perspective -- hold it right

    25 there, please.

  130. 1 Q. Does this perspective help you complete the

    2 description of your compound?

    3 A. Well, it assists me, yes. This is another

    4 corner. We've seen this post from another view during

    5 cross-examination, I think. This would be where

    6 another bit of the barbed wire fence meets another run

    7 of chain-link fencing in another part of the compound

    8 in which the prisoners are held.

    9 MR. KEEGAN: If you could play the tape at

    10 normal speed, please?

    11 (Videotape played)

    12 Q. Does that reflect the back side, if you will,

    13 of that compound?

    14 A. Yes. It's the side of the compound.

    15 Q. If you could go back now to just about the

    16 five-minute mark, five minutes, five seconds? That's

    17 it. Just back a bit, please? Okay. Play at normal

    18 speed.

    19 (Videotape played)

    20 And if you could pause there? Thank you.

    21 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, does that image again give you

    22 a better perspective of the house which the Defence

    23 asked you about and where it would be located in

    24 relation to the compound?

    25 A. Well, I think it would be outside the

  131. 1 compound, and I expect it's on the other side of the

    2 road.

    3 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you. We're finished with

    4 the tape, thank you.

    5 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, did the fact that you

    6 interviewed the accused in February of 1996, did that

    7 fact have any relation to the fact that you had been

    8 contacted by the Office of the Prosecutor with respect

    9 to the case of Dusko Tadic?

    10 A. No, it was an assignment from my newspaper.

    11 I've said this. I was assigned to retrace the war and

    12 to interview some of the major players in it. Others

    13 on the list included people like General Morillon.

    14 There were a large number of people. It ended up as a

    15 series of twelve articles of which this interview was

    16 part of one.

    17 Q. Before the interview actually occurred on

    18 that morning in February of 1996, did you have a

    19 guarantee that you were going to have an interview with

    20 Dr. Kovacevic?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. If he had said no to the interview, would

    23 that have terminated your project, or would you have

    24 gone on to interview other people for the series?

    25 A. I'd have gone on to seek out Dr. Stakic and

  132. 1 Professor Koljevic. We had already that morning

    2 endeavoured to -- sorry, the previous day, forgive

    3 me -- endeavoured to make contact with Mr. Drljaca but

    4 without success.

    5 Q. Does the witness still have Exhibit 55, which

    6 is the typed notes of the interview with Dr. Kovacevic?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. I would refer you to the heading section on

    9 the first page. Questions were raised about the issue

    10 of the brandy, the time of day that the interview took

    11 place, and the fact that you had a specific time in

    12 your notes which wasn't referenced directly in the

    13 notes. Can you begin with the paragraph saying "He is

    14 now director ..."

    15 A. "He is now director of the city hospital. He

    16 is an anaesthetist by training. Atmosphere is genial.

    17 Gets a bottle out of the cupboard. 10.00 a.m."

    18 MR. KEEGAN: We have no further questions,

    19 Your Honour.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: I have, first of all, a

    21 request. I wonder whether I could ask either the

    22 witness or the parties to provide us with a copy, a

    23 photocopy, of the articles you eventually published as

    24 a result of your interviews? Is it possible? It may

    25 not be considered as evidence, but I think they might

  133. 1 assist the Court.

    2 MR. KEEGAN: Certainly, Your Honour. I think

    3 the Office of the Prosecutor would undertake to

    4 provide -- obtain copies and provide that --

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Which will also be passed on,

    6 of course, to the Defence. Thank you.

    7 I have two questions. One question is about

    8 your trip to Belgrade. You said that after

    9 Dr. Karadzic went to London, you decided to go and

    10 visit the Omarska camp. Why did you go to Belgrade

    11 first before going to Pale?

    12 A. Your Honour, that was the stipulation of

    13 those in whose hands we are, namely Dr. Karadzic, that

    14 we would have to make our way to Belgrade and to be

    15 appropriately met and accredited with the authorities

    16 -- the press agency in Belgrade and that that is where

    17 they wanted to meet us.

    18 Our, if I may say, hostess was a woman called

    19 Mandic, and it was there that we first met Professor

    20 Koljevic and were taken from there to Pale later on, as

    21 I explained.

    22 Belgrade was their choice. Also, that was

    23 the nearest plane you could get to Belgrade, was to

    24 Hungary and that's -- so we went from there. Belgrade

    25 was where they told us to go.

  134. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So you got there

    2 your accreditation through the SRNA, the Yugoslav

    3 Serbian News Agency, but the accreditation was valid in

    4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, so you got it in Belgrade for

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    6 A. I can only presume so, yes. Our first

    7 instructions from the authorities in Belgrade were that

    8 to pursue this trip, to pursue this acceptance of the

    9 invitation to inspect the camps, we would first have to

    10 accredit ourselves with the SRNA. That was our very

    11 first move, our very first appointment the morning

    12 after we arrived.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. And by and large

    14 did you -- at some point you said that the helicopter

    15 you used to go from Belgrade to Pale was provided by

    16 the JNA. Is that correct or ...

    17 A. Yes, that's certainly my recollection. The

    18 helicopter left from a premises that was very obviously

    19 a depot of some kind of the JNA. It may have been the

    20 Yugoslav air force, but I don't think it was. I think

    21 it was the JNA.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Generally

    23 speaking, while you were there in that period, in

    24 August '92, did you have the opportunity to observe the

    25 relations between Bosnian Serb authorities and the

  135. 1 Serbian authorities, the Belgrade authorities? Were

    2 there any occasions where you saw members of the JNA

    3 talking or discussing matters with members of the army

    4 of what later became Republika Srpska, namely the

    5 Bosnian Serbian army?

    6 A. My direct experience of military cooperation

    7 during that visit was this fact of the helicopter ride

    8 which was, if you like, seamless between the JNA base,

    9 or whatever it was from whence we left, to the Pale

    10 area where we landed.

    11 Militarily, my own personal experience is

    12 limited to the, if you like, the non-frontier at

    13 Loznica, and I described the garrison atmosphere on the

    14 Serbian side with the soldiers criss-crossing the

    15 border, but I have to say that most of my experience

    16 during that trip of entwinement between the two was

    17 more the politicians, that is to say, Professor

    18 Koljevic in Belgrade and so on.

    19 So far as I know, the soldiers who escorted

    20 us from Pale to Banja Luka were members of the Bosnian

    21 Serb army. I don't know whether those who came with us

    22 on the helicopter, of whom there were a number, were

    23 members of the JNA or the Bosnian Serb army. They

    24 seemed indistinguishable.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: And when you, after August

  136. 1 '92, went back to Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you have an

    2 opportunity again to observe the relations, if any,

    3 between the JNA and the Bosnian Serb army, or did

    4 you --

    5 A. Forgive me, Your Honour. Could I just ask

    6 you the date again?

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: '92. Let us stick to '92. I

    8 don't know whether you had an opportunity when you went

    9 back in '92, after August '92, to Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    10 whether you were also in that area, in the area under

    11 the control of the Bosnian Serbs?

    12 A. No, I wasn't during 1992, which was the scope

    13 of our discussion, I think. No.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. If I can move to

    15 a different matter? While you were commenting on your

    16 contemporaneous notes, you, at one point -- you spoke

    17 about the so-called "road bit," the bit regarding --

    18 you gave a sort of heading, "The road bit."

    19 A. Yes.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: You said that you saw Muslim

    21 houses where the Muslim inhabitants had put up a white

    22 flag, and I think you asked somebody a question "Why?"

    23 And the answer was, "They are waiting to leave." Now,

    24 can you elaborate on this point? Were there particular

    25 families, groups of Muslims, who had decided to put up

  137. 1 a white flag and why, for what purposes? Apparently

    2 there were various groups of Muslims. Some of them had

    3 decided to put up this white flag and then therefore to

    4 leave, probably undisturbed, first question; and

    5 secondly, do you know whether they were allowed to

    6 leave the territory by themselves in convoys or

    7 escorted or just to go abroad?

    8 A. The question of the white flags, and there

    9 were sheets and pillowcases or whatever, was raised

    10 with Major Milutinovic twice: once on the way to

    11 Prijedor, and that was when he said they had accepted

    12 the new order, to the best of my recollection. On the

    13 back roads between Prijedor and Omarska, there were

    14 also these flags and pillowcases being hung, and I

    15 remember asking again, and this time the explanation

    16 had changed slightly, and it was that they were waiting

    17 to leave.

    18 In my own experience, the only way to leave

    19 was either in a convoy, either directly or via

    20 Trnopolje, over the mountain roads that I described in

    21 my evidence, or along a similar route about which I

    22 have no direct, as it were, inside experience, through

    23 Karlovac into Croatia up until the date that the border

    24 was sealed, as I explained. I imagine there might have

    25 been other people who left in different circumstances.

  138. 1 There was the girl in Bihac who seemed to have been

    2 part of a smaller column being, according to her,

    3 violently pushed over the river Una into Bihac, I've

    4 testified about her, and so I can't really answer your

    5 question, but my impression is that the overwhelming

    6 majority of those who left, left in the organised

    7 convoys either directly or through Trnopolje.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: My point was, did you ask why

    9 some Muslims were taken to centres, detention centres,

    10 transit centres -- let us leave aside the proper

    11 label -- in three centres or areas or camps which have

    12 been mentioned, and others were allowed to stay in

    13 their houses, put up a white flag, and then were

    14 allowed to leave the territory probably in convoys?

    15 Were there particular criteria? On basically what

    16 particular criteria?

    17 A. If there were, I'm afraid I was unable to

    18 discern them.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Again, a small point. At one

    20 point, you mentioned official decrees, the passing by

    21 the Bosnian Serbian authorities, official decrees

    22 deciding whether or not Muslims were allowed to stay in

    23 villages near Prijedor. Am I correct in saying that

    24 you, at one point, mentioned these decrees about

    25 categories of Muslims which were allowed and some other

  139. 1 categories which were not allowed to stay there but

    2 were asked to leave or forced to leave?

    3 A. I think so, yes. Again, I don't know what

    4 qualified you to be allowed to stay.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: But did you see any of those

    6 decrees?

    7 A. There was a decree which a colleague of mine

    8 on The Guardian got in a village called Selinac about

    9 which he wrote and showed me the document, and that was

    10 the document that specifies that Muslims are not

    11 allowed to meet in groups of three -- groups of more

    12 than three, et cetera, which I alluded to earlier. But

    13 I don't know, I really can't answer you, as to what

    14 qualified a Muslim to stay or to leave. All I do know

    15 is that in -- if I may just mention another date? In

    16 1995, at the crossing point near Travnik through which

    17 I had passed three years earlier, there were still

    18 trickles coming through. I would be going outside my

    19 ambit to talk about what they were saying, but they had

    20 stayed on in circumstances which I think we've seen

    21 described in some of the Red Cross exhibits, difficult

    22 ones, but I don't know what qualified them to say. I'm

    23 afraid I can't help you --

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: I see from your answer that

    25 -- yes, you are right. Actually, my notes were

  140. 1 wrong. What you said about these official decrees

    2 were, you said that those decrees specified what

    3 Muslims were allowed to do and what they were not

    4 allowed to do in those villages near Prijedor, so

    5 categories of behaviour or conduct -- so this is one of

    6 those decrees?

    7 A. Yes, that's right. This is just one village.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder whether we could be

    9 provided by the parties or by the witness copies of

    10 those decrees because they might be of some assistance

    11 to the Trial Chamber?

    12 MR. KEEGAN: We have a witness, Your Honour,

    13 who will be testifying during the next session, who

    14 will be able to introduce the specific document that

    15 Mr. Vulliamy is referring to.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I am through with

    17 my questions.

    18 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, if I may just

    19 address the Court to follow up just a couple of minor

    20 clarifications after Judge Cassese addressed the

    21 witness. It's basically SRNA, and I think there was a

    22 misquotation what does it mean, and it seems by

    23 implication it could suggest that it was a Yugoslav

    24 agency, and if either Judge would like to clarify what

    25 the words mean and what that acronym is supposed to

  141. 1 mean, who did he see in Belgrade, and why Dr. Karadzic

    2 went via Belgrade and why did he invite them to go via

    3 Belgrade, were there any other routes that were at that

    4 time open, because it seems that kind of does not

    5 elucidate all the points that Judge Cassese wanted to

    6 examine on.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: I didn't understand you,

    8 sorry. Were you asking me to ask questions to the

    9 witness? I agree -- I agree with you that it's a

    10 matter if the witness could clarify this point.

    11 First of all, the acronym. The acronym, this

    12 SRNA. The witness said, when he was examined in chief,

    13 that this meant Yugoslav Serbian News Agency. Do you

    14 know what --

    15 A. So far as I know, Your Honour, it's CRNA, and

    16 I don't know what it stands for.

    17 MR. VUCICEVIC: It's S-R-N-A, SRNA.

    18 JUDGE MAY: It may be that we'll get some

    19 evidence about what that means in due course.

    20 MR. VUCICEVIC: Could I just give him a

    21 hypothetical? If I were to tell you that that stands

    22 for Serbian Republic News Agency, would you agree with

    23 me?

    24 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I object to this.

    25 This is improper questioning of the witness.

  142. 1 JUDGE MAY: We'll find out in due course.

    2 We'll find out in due course. If that's right ...

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Probably the witness could be

    4 so kind as to add a few comments about the persons he

    5 met while in Belgrade.

    6 THE WITNESS: Yes. The first person who met

    7 us at the hotel which, as I recall, was chosen by us,

    8 the Hyatt Hotel, was called Klara Mandic. She said she

    9 represented something called the Serbian Jewish

    10 Friendship Society. I don't know why that in

    11 particular.

    12 She then made the introductions to Professor

    13 Koljevic that evening, I think, and some other

    14 officials and a television producer, as I recall. It

    15 was at her request that we went to register at the

    16 SRNA -- I'm not in a position to either agree or

    17 disagree with counsel on what that stands for. To this

    18 day, I don't know. But whatever it is, they had an

    19 office in Belgrade, and we went down there and filled

    20 in various forms, I think paid a very small fee for

    21 registration of some kind, tiny amount, and apart from

    22 that, we -- well, we had this one meeting at the

    23 Hyatt. Then we were waiting around, actually, to go,

    24 making these various trips to -- day trips to Loznica,

    25 another place nearby called Subotica as part of our

  143. 1 inspections of the names on the list the Bosnian

    2 government had put out, and I've already talked about

    3 those places.

    4 But apart from that, I'd say that the people

    5 we -- yes, the people we met in Belgrade, those were

    6 the main ones. I don't recall the names of any

    7 others. And then the morning came when Mrs. Mandic

    8 came to instruct us to go to the helicopter pad, which

    9 I don't think belonged to the Serbian Jewish Friendship

    10 Society, and that was our experience of Belgrade.

    11 Thank you.

    12 JUDGE MAY: Thank you, Mr. Vulliamy. Thank

    13 you for coming. You are released, free to go.

    14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

    15 (The witness withdrew)

    16 JUDGE MAY: That concludes our proceedings

    17 today. We shall -- is there any matter you want to

    18 raise, Mr. Keegan?

    19 MR. KEEGAN: Just one brief one, Your Honour,

    20 consistent with the Trial Chamber's orders. At the

    21 conclusion of the evidence, we would like to retrieve

    22 the copies of the notes, please.

    23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The Defence, of course,

    24 should give those back, as ordered.

    25 MR. KEEGAN: And if the accused has any

  144. 1 copies. Any copies that they've made other than the

    2 two we gave them, yes, Your Honour.

    3 MR. OSTOJIC: We'll endeavour. We're going

    4 to have to take some time to do that, but we will

    5 comply, obviously, with the order and produce that.

    6 That are some notes written on it, on the actual

    7 copies. If we can merely have it destroyed with our

    8 presence as well, if that would be okay?

    9 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, we're happy if they

    10 give them to Mr. Bos and he can shred them. It's just

    11 that they're returned and destroyed, is all we're

    12 concerned about.

    13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, hand them back to the

    14 registrar, and there should be no difficulty about

    15 them.

    16 As far as the future scheduling of the case

    17 is concerned, the next hearing will be on the 21st of

    18 September. There will be a hearing for three weeks.

    19 We have now completed our plans for the

    20 autumn. We have borne in mind everything that's said

    21 about this case and, of course, the importance of

    22 finishing it. However, we have to try another matter

    23 and so we have to fit both in, and the upshot is that

    24 after the 9th of October, the next hearings will be the

    25 23rd of November and the 11th of December.

  145. 1 And if I could add this for the Prosecution,

    2 that, of course, it's not possible always to time these

    3 things accurately, but in line with your earlier

    4 estimates, we would hope that the Prosecution case is

    5 concluded by that date in December, the Prosecution

    6 would have that in mind.

    7 Then we will adjourn until the 21st of

    8 September.

    9 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    10 1.06 p.m., to be reconvened on

    11 Monday, the 21st day of September,

    12 1998, at 9.00 a.m.