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1 Friday, 24 February 2006
2 [Initial Appearance]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3.07 p.m.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, everyone. Would the registrar
7 please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour. This is case number
9 IT-98-32/1-I.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Now, this proceeding is the initial
11 appearance of Mr. Milan Lukic, which is taking place pursuant to Rule 62
12 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of the Tribunal.
13 The first thing I think I ought to be clear about is who
14 represents the Prosecution and Defence in this case. For the Prosecutor.
15 MR. HARMON: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Mark Harmon, Frederic
16 Ossogo, and Fergal Gaynor representing the Prosecution. Present also is
17 Lise-Lotte Karlsson, the case manager.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Harmon. And for the Defence.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Michael Karnavas on
20 behalf of Milan Lukic.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.
22 Now, Mr. Lukic, could you stand, please. Are you hearing what's
23 being said in your own language?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can hear it.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Should any difficulty in that connection develop,
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1 you should let me know immediately. Do you understand that?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand that. Thank you.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's see if without bending down you can actually
4 communicate with the microphone. I think they probably are good enough,
5 when switched on, to enable you to stand up straight and answer, and if
6 that proves difficult, then you may sit down, but let's see how we get on.
7 Would you state, first of all -- would you state, first of all,
8 please, your full name.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am Milan Lukic.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: What is your date of birth?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The 6th of September, 1967.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: And where were you born?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In Foca.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Prior to your detention and then transmission to
15 the Tribunal, where did you reside?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before I was transferred here, I
17 lived in Argentina. For the last four months.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Now could you please be seated.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Karnavas, this case has a long history, a long
21 history as far as this accused is concerned and a long history as far as
22 other accused are concerned. Most of that history is well known, and I
23 don't think any particular purpose would be served today by elaborating
24 upon it further. So what I propose to do is proceed straight to the issue
25 that concerns us today, which is the position of the accused - this
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1 accused - in relation to each of the counts against him. Now, if I do
2 that, do I require that the whole indictment be read, or is it going to be
3 sufficient in this instance to ask him whether he pleads guilty or not
4 guilty to each of the individual counts by simply referring to what that
5 count is? For example, extermination, a crime against humanity.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. First of all, for the
7 record, he has -- Mr. Lukic has been fully apprised of his rights, both
8 while he was in Argentina and while he's here. I have had an opportunity
9 to go over the entire indictment with him, both in Argentina and here. At
10 this time, he knowingly and intelligently and voluntarily waives the
11 reading of the indictment. However, I do understand your request, and I
12 believe that the mere reading of each count and the entering of not guilty
13 on each particular count would be sufficient, and that that would be our
14 position, that we enter a plea of not guilty to each and every count, in
15 fact to the entire indictment, to every single word at this particular
16 point. Thank you.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, just one further matter. Thank you,
18 Mr. Karnavas. There is -- or at least there was an application by the
19 Prosecution to amend the indictment in this case, and that's an amended --
20 a proposal to amend an already amended indictment. Procedure on that was
21 suspended pending the accused arriving here. For the avoidance of any
22 doubt, it's the indictment which has been established as an appropriate
23 indictment to which he will be invited to plead. I'll come later to the
24 question of the amendment that is now proposed to that indictment, but he
25 will asked in a moment or two to plead to the 21 existing counts on the
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1 indictment.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well. That's fine.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: But just to be clear, we're pleading not guilty to
5 everything.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Everything, yes.
7 Now, before I embark on that, Mr. Harmon, is there anything that
8 you want to draw to my attention?
9 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour. As Your Honour is going to address
10 the issue of the proposed second amended indictment at a later time, we
11 have nothing to add at this point in time.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Now, Mr. Lukic, would you stand again,
13 please. In a moment, the court registrar will read to you a summary of
14 each count on the indictment, and he will take them one by one, and each
15 time, once he's read the summary, he will ask you whether you plead guilty
16 or not guilty, and you should reply in each instance to that question. Do
17 you understand that?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Would the registrar now please proceed to take the
20 plea.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Milan Lukic, you have been charged as follows:
22 Count 1: Extermination, a crime against humanity. Do you plead guilty or
23 not guilty?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Count 2, persecution on political, racial, and
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1 religious grounds, a crime against humanity. Do you plead guilty or not
2 guilty?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Count 4, murder, a crime against humanity. Do you
5 plead guilty or not guilty?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Count 5, murder, a violation of the laws or
8 customs of war. Do you plead guilty or not guilty?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Count 6, inhumane acts, a crime against humanity.
11 Do you plead guilty or not guilty?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Count 7, violence to life and person, a violation
14 of the laws or customs of war. Do you plead guilty or not guilty?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Count 8, murder, a crime against humanity. Do you
17 plead guilty or not guilty?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Count 9, murder, a violation of the laws or
20 customs of war. Do you plead guilty or not guilty?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Count 10, murder, a crime against humanity. Do
23 you plead guilty or not guilty?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Count 11, murder, a violation of the laws or
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1 customs of war. Do you plead guilty or not guilty?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Count 12, inhumane acts, a crime against humanity.
4 Do you plead guilty or not guilty?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Count 13, violence to life and person, a violation
7 of the laws or customs of war. Do you plead guilty or not guilty?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Count 14, murder, a crime against humanity. Do
10 you plead guilty or not guilty?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Count 15, murder, a violation of the laws or
13 customs of war. Do you plead guilty or not guilty?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Count 16, inhumane acts, a crime against humanity.
16 Do you plead guilty or not guilty?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Count 17, violations to life and person, a
19 violation of the laws or customs of war. Do you plead guilty or not
20 guilty?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Count 18, inhumane acts, a crime against humanity.
23 Do you plead guilty or not guilty?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Count 19, cruel treatment, a violation of the laws
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1 or customs of war. Do you plead guilty or not guilty?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Count 20, murder, a crime against humanity. Do
4 you plead guilty or not guilty?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Count 21, murder, a violation of the laws or
7 customs of war. Do you plead guilty or not guilty?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Lukic. Please be
10 seated.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: In view of these pleas of not guilty to each of the
13 charges, I ask the registrar to note that a trial will require to be set
14 in due course. That, of course, is subject to the application which was
15 made in terms of Rule 11 bis to transfer this case away from the
16 jurisdiction of the Tribunal. The motion was suspended, as I understand
17 it, by the Referral Bench, but that suspension was simply until the
18 accused came here. And in view of his arrival here, then that suspension
19 appears to me to automatically be raised, although that's a matter for the
20 Referral Bench rather than me, and the issue is again a live one.
21 Now, Mr. Harmon, I think you know that I take the view that
22 disclosure is not an optional form of procedure that ought to be suspended
23 simply because of an application in terms of 11 bis. So I take it that
24 the Prosecution are now actively engaged in disclosure.
25 MR. HARMON: We -- two elements that I need to advise the Court
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1 about in respect of disclosure: One, we're prepared to make disclosure
2 now. Second of all, Your Honour, there is a -- there was an application
3 for consideration for a proposed second amended indictment. That
4 application was stayed. He is -- until he had arrived in The Hague.
5 Mr. Lukic is now here in The Hague, it is our intention to file next week
6 formally a request for consideration of an amended second indictment.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Remind me of the state of play. There is a
8 motion and there is a proposed amended indictment.
9 MR. HARMON: There is a proposed amended indictment. That was
10 stayed until his arrival.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Do we not just need to remove the stay?
12 MR. HARMON: We can either do that, that's one issue - it's not
13 entirely clear from going through all of the decisions - that can either
14 take place, or alternatively, we can file formally an application saying
15 now we submit before the Chamber that's seized of the matter an
16 application to amend the present indictment.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Well, the practical issue here is one of a
18 proper representation of the accused. So give me a moment while I ask
19 Mr. Karnavas about that.
20 Are you likely to be counsel in this case, or are you here for the
21 day and gone tomorrow?
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, hopefully not, Your Honour. Hopefully not.
23 I had a power of attorney to represent Mr. Lukic. The Prosecution was
24 aware of this way back in December, as was the Registry became aware of it
25 some two weeks ago. It's my understanding that, based on the 11 bis, at
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1 least the application that had been pending, that the Argentinian court
2 transferred Mr. Lukic here on the agreement that he would not be sent to
3 the state court in Sarajevo and that he would remain here or there would
4 be one other option and that would be Belgrade. So I would take it that's
5 why you have this amended indictment that's pending.
6 My suggestion at this point would be not to rush into anything,
7 because I think that it might be fruitful for me to meet with the
8 Prosecution, even at this early stage, and to begin to have certain
9 discussions that, you know, might not make it necessary for that -- that
10 amended indictment to be filed or it may make it necessary for them.
11 So I don't know if I'm asking -- I'm answering your question, but
12 it's my intention to remain in the case --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: No, you've answered that. The reason I thought it
14 might be worth doing something quite quickly on this was that I've, and
15 the Trial Chamber of which I'm part, has recently had to consider a
16 similar motion in relation to a co-accused in the case, and therefore the
17 issues which are similar are alive in our minds.
18 On the other hand, you may not have the benefit of being as well
19 briefed on it. I don't know. But if you were, then I would be inclined
20 to proceed with this, although I'm -- you know, I understand what you're
21 saying to me as well, and I wouldn't like to divert your attention from
22 activities that might turn out to be more productive.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I get the gist, Your Honour. I can only say
24 that efforts have been made on my -- on behalf of Mr. Lukic.
25 Unfortunately, we were waiting for him to come here. Now that he is here,
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1 perhaps there may be a different approach taken by the Prosecution. I
2 think perhaps they were waiting, thinking that the Argentinian court would
3 not reach the conclusion they did reach, which is why they were reluctant
4 but I can't speculate. I haven't had the opportunity to meet with
5 anybody.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: You've given me enough information to decide which
7 option to take, though, and I'm grateful for that. So I think I'll follow
8 Mr. -- Yes, I think I'll follow the course that you originally suggested,
9 Mr. Harmon, and that is leave it to you to file to revive this issue. But
10 that's on the clear understanding that Mr. Karnavas has indicated that he
11 will be speaking to you and, therefore, I'm anticipating he will do that
12 within the next couple of weeks or so, because I really don't want this
13 issue, if it has to be dealt with, to lie dormant for any significant
14 length of time. If we really are to address the issue of amending the
15 indictment, we should do it fairly soon. So can I take it you will speak
16 to the Prosecution within that sort of time scale and allow them to
17 suspend -- they will suspend their action while you do that.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm prepared to speak with him right after this
19 hearing.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: That's excellent. Thank you very much. So I'll
21 leave it to you to put in the appropriate motion or filing, Mr. Harmon,
22 once you're satisfied that it's necessary.
23 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. We'll be doing that next week. In
24 respect of the question of who represents Mr. Lukic, I am -- received a
25 copy of a decision from the Deputy Registrar. I'm not sure if the Court
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1 has a copy of that. It deals directly with the issue of counsel and the
2 decision. It states that Mr. Karnavas will represent Mr. Lukic at his
3 initial appearance and at such other matters as may be necessary until
4 permanent counsel is assigned, effective as of the date of this decision.
5 So obviously discussions with us are -- we're happy to engage in those
6 discussions now, but they will be fruitful with permanent counsel as
7 opposed to counsel that may not be permanent counsel, so I bring that Your
8 Honour's attention.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: It sounds as though Mr. Karnavas is going to apply
10 his ingenuity to remaining permanent counsel in the case.
11 MR. HARMON: No doubt, Your Honour.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: And just might I add that my willingness, and I
13 wouldn't say eagerness, but my willingness to meet with the Prosecution is
14 with the full authority and blessing of Mr. Lukic.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Thank you very much. Well, it may be that
16 that's an answer to the question, but I'll leave these matters to counsel
17 to resolve.
18 I don't think it appropriate to do anything. In fact, it may be
19 out of my power anyway to do anything to suspend the period for filing
20 preliminary motions. If you have any to make, then you've got 30 days to
21 make them.
22 Now, is there anything else I ought to deal with, Mr. Harmon?
23 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: So far as the accused is concerned, Mr. Karnavas,
25 are you satisfied that he is being properly cared for in the Detention
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1 Unit?
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there anything else you think I ought to deal
4 with?
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Nothing, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Thank you. That concludes today's
7 business. Mr. Lukic, the proceedings are now adjourned and you will
8 remain in the custody of the Tribunal.
9 --- Whereupon the Initial Appearance adjourned
10 at 3.29 p.m.
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