Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 369

 1                           Friday, 11 July 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.58 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, I understand you have a point.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  Prior to Mr. Alarid continuing

 7     his cross-examination I would like to make an observation about the

 8     cross-examination so far.  I would like to draw Mr. Alarid's attention as

 9     well as the Court's to Rule 90(H)(ii).  While we have listened to his

10     suggestions that the witness is not worthy of belief we have yet to hear

11     him put his case to the witness as required by Rule 90(H)(ii).  I say

12     this now because I do not want Mr. Alarid to complete his

13     cross-examination without complying with this rule.  It is not a rule or

14     legal principle that we observe in US jurisdictions so Mr. Alarid may be

15     unfamiliar with it.  And 90(H)(ii) states in cross-examination of a

16     witness, who is able to give evidence relevant to the case for

17     cross-examining party, counsel shall put to that witness the nature of

18     the case of the party for whom that counsel appears, which is in

19     contradiction of the evidence given by a witness.

20             The Prosecutor versus Brdjanin on 22nd of March 2002, the Trial

21     Chamber issue a decision reaffirming the role that 90(H)(ii) plays in

22     cross-examination, and I have copies of the decision if the Chamber

23     wishes to review it or the Defence counsel; but in paragraph 12 of that

24     decision the Brdjanin Chamber sets forth the underlying rational of the

25     rule.  Where the cross-examining party intends to later contradict the

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 1     testimony of a witness on a fact in issue by introducing further evidence

 2     or by suggesting that the witness's testimony can otherwise be explained,

 3     the witness should be given the opportunity in cross-examination to

 4     comment upon the contradictory version.  The Chamber goes on to state in

 5     paragraph 13:

 6             "The Trial Chamber states without the least hesitation and

 7     stresses that Rule -- the Rule 90(H)(2) it was adopted to serve fairness

 8     in the conduct of trial and to expedite trial proceedings in this

 9     Tribunal.  It is indeed a rule of fairness, not only because it serves to

10     enable the witness to comment upon contradictory version but also to give

11     the trier of fact in this case the Trial Chamber the opportunity to more

12     accurately judge the credibility of the contradictory version."

13             Now on the 9th of January 2008, Mr. Alarid filed a document that

14     was entitled, "Milan Lukic's Defence notice under Rule 67(A)(1)(a).

15     While Judge Thelin ruled that this filing did not meets the requirement

16     of 67(A)(1)(a), the filing did set forth at least in vague terms the

17     Defence case.  I'm quoting now from paragraph 21(D) of the filing:

18             "On the counts 2, 3, 4 and 5 of the indictment, Drina River, the

19     accused claims that he was not present or even less participate in that

20     incident, but he will present the witness, a Muslim, who was wounded at

21     that very moment, but from Muslims who opened fire from the other side of

22     the Drina River."

23             It would seem to me that Rule 90(H)(ii) therefore requires

24     Mr. Alarid to put to VG-014 the following facts if this filing indeed

25     accurately represents his case:  One, that Milan Lukic was not present at

Page 371

 1     the Drina River when the five men were killed; that Milan Lukic did not

 2     try to kill VG-014; in addition his Defence asserts that there was

 3     another Muslim witness who was wounded at the very same time the attempt

 4     was made on VG-014's life.

 5             This would require Mr. Alarid to put to the witness that there

 6     was, in fact, an 8th Muslim man at the river that day, or in the

 7     alternative, that not all of the five men VG-014 said were killed died

 8     that day and, in fact, there was another survivor.

 9             With respect to the assertion in the submission that the gunfire

10     that killed the men was "from Muslims who opened fire from the other side

11     of the Drina River," it would seem to me that it must be put to this

12     witness that the shooting did not come from behind him as he has

13     testified but came from across the river.  From the far bank which the

14     witness has testified he was facing at the time the shooting began.

15             So if his previous filing is indeed an accurate reflection of his

16     case, then I believe it is incumbent upon him under the rules to put this

17     directly to the witness.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I have listened to you, Mr. Groome.  I'm

19     familiar with the rule.  And certainly in the jurisdiction in which I

20     used to practice, it was the practice for cross-examining counsel to put

21     his case, and the language usually used is I put to you so and.  If he

22     doesn't do that, what flows from it?

23             MR. GROOME:  Is that a question?

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's a rhetorical question, it's a rhetorical

25     question.  I'm asking what is the consequence if he doesn't do that?  I

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 1     think the consequence will be adverse to his case.  In this case, as far

 2     as I can see, the Defence is -- you have the wrong man.  And in my view,

 3     Mr. Alarid has been saying that.  He has been saying, "You have the wrong

 4     man."

 5             The essential issue in the case is identity.  And I am not going

 6     to delay the trial because the Defence is not putting particular details

 7     of what you consider to be their case.  That's a matter for them to

 8     determine.  If they don't do it, then the Trial Chamber can draw

 9     particular conclusions from that.  And so I don't wish to proceed with

10     this matter any further.  I hear what you have said, and I take it into

11     consideration.  Mr. Alarid has heard it.  As I have said, I believe that

12     he has been putting his defence and putting it quite strongly in my view.

13     I don't really want to hear from you on this, Mr. Alarid.  Because I

14     think we need to get on with the trial.

15             MR. ALARID:  The only thing, Your Honour, with all due respect

16     the only thing I wanted to mention was not anything but I was not part of

17     this case in January 8.  That was the brief time that Mr. Sulejic was

18     here.  He had only been on a couple of weeks himself.  I think by nature

19     the filings --

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let me stop you on that.  You keep making this

21     point, Mr. Alarid.  Don't make it any more because you are the Defence

22     counsel --

23             MR. ALARID:  Yes, sir.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  -- and it will not avail you or your client for

25     you to say that you were not in the case at the particular point.  You

Page 373

 1     are the Defence counsel now and you have responsibility for the case of

 2     the accused, Milan Lukic, full responsibility, and I don't want to hear

 3     that as an excuse any more.

 4             Let us call the witness now and proceed with the case.

 5             Will the court deputy inform me as to the time that has been used

 6     by the Defence?  The Prosecutor spent 2 hours and 12 minutes, and I

 7     intend to allow Mr. Alarid the same time.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, the Prosecution spent 2 hours,

 9     12 minutes.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, but how much time has Mr. Alarid spent?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  The Defence so far spent 1 hour 2 minutes.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Is the witness being brought in?

13                           [The witness entered court]

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please be seated.

15             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid, please continue.

17             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VG-014 [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid: [Continued]

21        Q.   Mr. 14, good morning.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   I'm sorry, I'm not on the right channel.

24             I'd like to try and leave off or start where we left off

25     yesterday.  Now, just to clarify one point is you claim that Milan left

Page 374

 1     high school after the second grade of it and left to Serbia?

 2        A.   I'm not sure whether he completed the second grade or was this

 3     towards the end of the second grade.  That I'm not sure.

 4        Q.   But regardless, you believe that he only completed two grades?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And you claim that he went to Serbia?

 7        A.   I don't claim.  I assume.

 8        Q.   And you assume this because what, it was a rumour around school?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And the rumour was that he went to Obrenovac?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   The police academy there?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And that he lived in Serbia?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, do you know in Visegrad who was the commander of the police

17     after the Uzice Corps entered Visegrad?

18        A.   I do not remember.

19        Q.   Do you know who the chief of police was?

20        A.   I don't remember that either.

21        Q.   Do you know who the captain was?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   You don't remember the name Tomic?

24        A.   I do not.

25        Q.   Do you know where Milan was working before he supposedly went to

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 1     become a police officer?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Do you know who the president of the SDS was in Visegrad?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Now, I'd like to go back to the point in time when the Uzice

 6     Corps entered after the two-party elections when the Uzice Corps entered

 7     the city.  Do you remember that time?

 8        A.   I do not remember at what time the Uzice Corps entered the town

 9     because at that time, I was in Gorazde.  I know that it was approximately

10     in either March or April, but I myself was not present in Visegrad at

11     that time.

12        Q.   That's because you left in advance of their arrival?

13        A.   Yes, that's right.

14        Q.   And when you returned, this is when all the Muslim homes were

15     vandalised, destroyed or burned?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And would it be fair to say that you could blame the Uzice Corps

18     as much as anything for the damage and destruction?

19        A.   Well, I could not directly put the blame on the Uzice Corps

20     because I don't know that.  I didn't see who did that.  I didn't see who

21     did what.

22        Q.   So you don't know if it was locals or outsiders?

23        A.   No, I don't.

24        Q.   Now, when the -- at the point in time that you left, that was

25     because the trust in the army had eroded amongst the Muslim people,

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 1     hadn't it?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And thousands of Muslims fled Visegrad in advance of the army's

 4     arrival, isn't that true?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And yet thousands were captured in the woods outside of Visegrad,

 7     isn't that true?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And those thousands were taken to the football stadium and

10     addressed by the captain, isn't that true?

11        A.   Yes.  This is what my parents told me because they too were

12     captured and held at that stadium and they told me that the captain -- a

13     Captain First Class, they thought he was, a man by the name of Jovanovic,

14     had addressed them at that time.

15        Q.   When were you first able to talk to your parents after the

16     address by Jovanovic?

17        A.   Well, after I returned from Gorazde.  The situation had calmed

18     down a bit because the Uzice Corps was already in town.  So that one

19     could go and visit one's parents and such.  So that immediately upon

20     returning from Gorazde, I paid a visit to my parents who were living in

21     the village.

22        Q.   And to return to them, you had to pass through several

23     check-points, correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   These check-points were manned by Serbs, local, as well as army,

Page 377

 1     whom you did not recognise?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Of the local Serbs, did you consider any of them to be

 4     White Eagles?

 5        A.   Well, at that particular point in time, I did not notice these

 6     men at those check-points.

 7        Q.   What do you mean by "did not notice"?  Because I believe

 8     yesterday on cross-examination you said you recognised some of the men as

 9     local Serbians who you knew by face.

10        A.   Yes.  Yes.  You're right.  That was at the check-point outside

11     Novi or New Hotel where I recognised Oliver Krsmanovic.

12        Q.   How was Oliver dressed?

13        A.   He was in a camouflage uniform with insignia with a kokarde with

14     a two-headed eagle, and I believe I said that of armaments, he had a

15     Heckler.

16        Q.   And the two-headed eagle, the kokarde, what significance is that

17     to you and Muslims in general?

18        A.   Well, you see, this emblem, this kokarde, to us Muslims was a

19     symbol of the Chetniks.

20        Q.   Is Chetniks a nice word?

21        A.   I don't know.

22        Q.   Well, you mentioned on direct examination a word, is it "balija,"

23     which is derogatory to Muslims?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Would it be fair to say that the word "Chetniks" is derogatory

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 1     towards Serbians?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know what to tell you.  Perhaps to the Serbs it is.

 3     To us, this is their designation.  This is what they call themselves, in

 4     fact.

 5        Q.   Now, with regards to the two-headed eagle, would it be fair to

 6     say that that -- those are White Eagles?

 7        A.   Yes, probably.  They too wore these -- that insignia.

 8        Q.   These are the same two eagles that are on the Serbian flag?

 9        A.   Well, I haven't studied those insignia.  I don't know whether

10     there is any other kind besides that one, but they are designed in that

11     same fashion.

12        Q.   Now, when you went through -- you were in town for how long after

13     your return until you went into hiding again or at least the 7th of June?

14        A.   For about a month.

15        Q.   And during that month you worked and every day you had to go to

16     work through several check-points?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And for 30 days, these check-points, you saw that there were

19     local Serbs as well as army manning them, isn't that true?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And at none of these check-points did you ever see Milan Lukic?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And it will be fair to say that you didn't hear anything about

24     Milan Lukic until the issue of Ms. Zukic came up?

25        A.   It is not that I didn't hear anything.  I did hear that he had

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 1     killed Behija Zukic.  That is the very first thing that I heard about

 2     him.

 3        Q.   And so based on that, you don't know exactly when he returned

 4     home as -- do you?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   And before that, all you knew of him was being a quiet boy that

 7     didn't fight with Muslims, that you went to school with for a short time?

 8        A.   Yes.  I said -- I've told you this already.

 9        Q.   And when you were able to finally talk to your parents, how did

10     they describe this meeting of 4.000 Serbians in the football stadium?

11        A.   I don't know about the figure of 4.000 Serbs.  I know that there

12     were about 1500 Muslims.  And how many Serbs there were, I have no idea.

13        Q.   I apologise.  That was my fault in the question.

14             Beyond that, what did your parents tell you about what

15     Captain Jovanovic said?

16        A.   Well, something to the effect that now they had entered the city,

17     that it would be safe, that they could go back to their homes and

18     continue with their regular activities.

19        Q.   Did your parents confirm that Commander Jovanovic claimed that he

20     controlled the White Eagles?

21        A.   I don't know about that.

22        Q.   Now, would it be fair to say that your knowledge of the

23     White Eagles was through rumour?

24        A.   Well, through rumour, but also from my own seeing them, because I

25     worked near places where they passed, and so I could see them

Page 380

 1     occasionally, and also from the things which they did in those times, at

 2     that time; and they were easily recognisable.

 3        Q.   In terms of the things that they did, you're talking about the

 4     things that Muslims talked about that they did?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Were these White Eagles at the check-points that you passed

 7     through every day at work?

 8        A.   Well, outside the New Hotel, there were a number of the White

 9     Eagles, and I didn't notice any at the other check-points.

10        Q.   Did you hear rumours of White Eagles being under control of

11     Seselj?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Did you hear rumours of the White Eagles being under the control

14     of Arkan?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   And would it be fair to say that you didn't hear that Milan Lukic

17     was in control of the White Eagles?

18        A.   I don't know who could have been in control of the White Eagles

19     except that all of them were thus inclined to go and murder people; and

20     who was in control of them, I don't know that.

21        Q.   Would it be fair to say that when you were at work, Serbian

22     troops, Uzice Corps, were coming every day and taking workers away,

23     Muslim workers?

24        A.   This is not what I said.  I didn't say that the Uzice Corps did

25     that.

Page 381

 1        Q.   The JNA?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Who was taking away people from your work?

 4        A.   I don't know.  Probably those White Eagles or the paramilitary

 5     units that were there, that were in Visegrad at the time.

 6        Q.   Would it be fair to say instead of saying "probably," that it's

 7     just you don't know?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And so it could have been anyone taking these people away?

10        A.   Yes.  Whether it was the White Eagles or the paramilitary units

11     and I don't even know how many of them were there, then at the time; but

12     I cannot confirm that it was done by the Uzice Corps or the JNA.

13        Q.   Now, during this time period, a lot of Muslims had their cars

14     confiscated or taken from them, correct?

15        A.   That's right.

16        Q.   And these automobiles, would it be fair to say you recognised

17     many of them because of the Muslim community?

18        A.   Well, in respect of one of those cars, I can say that I

19     recognised it because it was the property of Avdija Hodzic, who lived in

20     the Jondja neighbourhood.  It was his car, it was a Lada caravan.  It was

21     taken, seized then.

22        Q.   Did you ever see this vehicle again?

23        A.   Yes, after a certain period of time, that car was left under the

24     new bridge, which is quite near the place where I worked during that

25     month after I had returned from Gorazde.  It had been damaged, and it was

Page 382

 1     left by the road under the bridge.

 2        Q.   Did you ever pass by the police station?

 3        A.   At that time, after I came back from Gorazde, I didn't pass by

 4     the police station.  There was an occasion once, with my colleague, to go

 5     to the police station because my brother was arrested then, my brother

 6     who had been beaten up at the police station.  Because of that we sent to

 7     see what was the situation with him and if he would be released.

 8        Q.   Do you remember the date?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Do you remember at least generally when it was, between when you

11     returned from Gorazde and left again on the 7th of June?

12        A.   Maybe it was towards the middle of that period.  I really don't

13     recall that all that well.

14        Q.   Did you see confiscated vehicles at the police station?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Now, during this time, there was a point in time where a JNA

17     reservist came to your home, correct?

18        A.   Yes.  That happened actually one day in the evening, around 9.00

19     p.m.

20        Q.   He had a sniper rifle?

21        A.   Yes, and a grenade.

22        Q.   And he threatened to blow you up?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And he was drunk?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 383

 1        Q.   He was a racist?

 2        A.   Well, I really couldn't explain that point.

 3        Q.   Would there be any explanation as to why he was treating you this

 4     way, other than he was prejudiced against Muslims?

 5        A.   Well, I really couldn't comment on that.  Probably because he was

 6     drunk.  That's why he did it.  But I really have no idea.

 7        Q.   Can a drunk man kill?

 8        A.   I couldn't say if he can or cannot.  It depends on the person, on

 9     the personality.

10        Q.   Were you afraid for your life?

11        A.   Yes.  And for the lives of my family.

12        Q.   And this was by a JNA soldier, correct?

13        A.   Well, he said that he was a reserve officer.  I don't know if he

14     was a member of the JNA.  He said that he was a reserve officer.

15        Q.   During times of war, don't reservists become regular soldiers?

16        A.   They receive the call-up notice, so I don't know if then they are

17     considered as mobilised soldiers or if they are still considered

18     reservists.  I really couldn't say.

19        Q.   Regardless, would it be fair to say that you believed that the

20     White Eagles you did saw were under the protection of the army?

21        A.   Well, I think that I said in my statement that it seemed to me,

22     when the Uzice Corps came in, that there would be peace.  It was the same

23     army that I had served in and that they would establish peace, that there

24     would be no bloodshed; but later it turned out that in my view the

25     White Eagles were actually under the protection of the Uzice Corps and

Page 384

 1     the JNA army.

 2        Q.   And when the JNA and the Uzice left town, you don't know how far

 3     they left?

 4        A.   Some of the heavy weaponry was transferred to Vardiste and

 5     Jagodina.  This is a settlement some 11 to 15 kilometres away in the

 6     direction of Uzice.  There was a military barracks there at Vardiste.

 7        Q.   Now, to back up a little bit, when you went to the police station

 8     to inquire about your brother, who did you talk to at the police station?

 9        A.   I don't remember.  I know that there were just two military

10     policemen there.  They had camouflage uniforms and white cross belts and

11     they just said that they had brought in my brother for interrogation and

12     that they would release him, but I don't remember their names.

13        Q.   And so as far as you saw, you only saw military personnel at the

14     police station, isn't that true?

15        A.   At the time, that's all I saw.  I don't know.  Perhaps there were

16     others.

17        Q.   And your brother was beaten at the police station by the

18     military, isn't that true?

19        A.   Yes, yes, by the military policemen.

20        Q.   And this was the kind of harassment of Muslims that was going on

21     all over the place at that time, isn't that true?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And despite the issue over the red Passat, you never heard about

24     Milan Lukic being involved with any of this harassment of Muslims at this

25     time, isn't that true?

Page 385

 1        A.   I didn't.  Well, I also said yesterday that I had heard from the

 2     other citizens that Milan Lukic had also committed a murder or a killing

 3     in the Smajic family.  This is all I know regarding the Behija Smajic

 4     incident.  I don't know about the rest.

 5        Q.   And again, you hadn't had any personal contact with Milan Lukic

 6     in the town even in passing?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Now, you stopped working around May of 1992, end of May?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And the Territorial Defence stayed behind after the JNA left,

11     isn't that true?

12        A.   [No interpretation]

13        Q.   What are the Territorial Defence to you?

14        A.   The Territorial Defence, as far as I'm concerned, it's a term for

15     an organisation or a military unit that was established in that territory

16     for the defence of that particular territory.  That's how I understand

17     the term "Territorial Defence."

18        Q.   And as far as you know, these members of the Territorial Defence

19     could have been committing the harassment and violations of Muslims?

20        A.   No.  I didn't say that.

21        Q.   Would it be fair to say that as far as you know, they could have?

22        A.   Well, I wouldn't comment on whether the Territorial Defence

23     committed crimes or not.

24        Q.   But regardless, the JNA left many weapons behind for them?

25        A.   Yeah, small arms.

Page 386

 1        Q.   Now, during this time, did you know if anyone could leave the

 2     city without a written permit?

 3        A.   I don't think that they could, no.

 4        Q.   Could you get a permit?

 5        A.   Well, it depends on who needed one.

 6        Q.   Do you know who was issuing the permits?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Now, these White Eagles, do you know where they were stationed?

 9        A.   I think that I said in my statement that the command was located

10     in the Bikavac Hotel.

11        Q.   You don't know who was at the Bikavac Hotel?

12        A.   You mean of the -- from the army?

13        Q.   Yes -- do you know anyone that was there?

14        A.   I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.  If you're asking

15     about the Territorial Defence or the White Eagles command or if you're

16     thinking about the hotel staff.  Can you please be a little more clear?

17        Q.   I'd like to know if you knew anyone at the Bikavac Hotel?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   So of all the people you just mentioned or different groups of

20     people, you knew no one at that hotel?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Now, you gave a statement -- you gave a couple statements in this

23     case, isn't that true?

24        A.   Could you please just remind me a little bit?  I can't remember.

25        Q.   Well, you gave a statement that was typed in English and Serbian

Page 387

 1     and signed and initialed and you gave the statement -- excuse me -- about

 2     the 5th of February 1998?

 3        A.   I probably did give the statement.

 4        Q.   And this is approximately a nine-page statement that you said you

 5     reviewed in advance of your testimony?

 6        A.   Just superficially, yes, glanced over it, yeah.

 7        Q.   And -- but you also gave a shorter statement, December 17th,

 8     1998?

 9        A.   I don't remember.  Perhaps you can just remind me.

10        Q.   You were asked to look at photographs and comment on the

11     photographs?

12        A.   I don't remember exactly what was it about relating to the

13     photographs, if it was people or different neighbourhoods.  It's not

14     quite clear to me.

15             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I'd like to at this moment take a brief

16     break, at least not allocating to my time of cross-examination, so he

17     could read his statement and then maybe that could refresh his

18     recollection.  It's a one -- it's less than one page, half a page,

19     approximately.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  He's certainly entitled to look at it.

21             MR. ALARID:  May I approach, Your Honour?  I have the statement.

22     Or the Court --

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Not you personally.

24             MR. ALARID:  Yes, yes.  Actually, I'm sorry, that's the English

25     version.  Here's the Serbian version.  He signed the English version.

Page 388

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What about -- do you have copies for us?

 2             MR. ALARID:  I can give you the --

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, do you have a copy of this?

 4             MR. GROOME:  I'll see if we have extra copies, Your Honour.  I

 5     think we may have.  I believe it's also available in e-court, if I'm not

 6     mistaken.

 7             Your Honour, I have three copies, for the Judges.

 8             MR. ALARID:  And we could pull it up on the monitor.  It's been

 9     downloaded in e-court as 2D365.  And 2D369 is the English version.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, is there a problem with -- in terms

11     of the protective measures, with the --

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, yes, the witness's name is at the very

13     top of the -- if it could be maybe cropped to the portion -- I don't

14     believe Mr. Alarid needs the first line.  And I'm sorry, the bottom, the

15     signature, as well.

16             MR. ALARID:  That would be correct, Your Honour, fine.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

18             MR. ALARID:

19        Q.   Has the witness had an opportunity to refresh his recollection?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Isn't it true that in December of 1998 you described Milan Lukic

22     as having a large birth mark or mole on his right cheek?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And that is how you remembered him in 1998?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 389

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I note on e-court that I'm looking at

 2     on my panel, the witness's name is being shown.  Could I ask that it just

 3     not be broadcast that we could all look at it in the courtroom, but it's

 4     not broadcast out of court.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  I would like to inform everyone that it's not

 6     being broadcast in the public.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Thank you.

 8             MR. ALARID:  And at this time, Your Honour, we would like to

 9     introduce this piece of evidence and tender it as an exhibit.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We admit it.

11             MR. ALARID:

12        Q.   Would it be fair to say that your memory was clear --

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, the Registrar --

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Apologies, Exhibit 1D1, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

16             MR. ALARID:

17        Q.   And would it be fair to say that your memory was --

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, Mr. Groome.

19             MR. GROOME:  Could we ask it be admitted under seal given the

20     protective measures.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, under seal.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be admitted under seal, Your Honours.

23             MR. ALARID:

24        Q.   Would it be fair to say that your memory was clearer in 1998 than

25     it would be today in 2008?

Page 390

 1        A.   Yes.  You could say that.  I mean, it's been ten years since

 2     then, and my recollection was much fresher then than it is now.

 3        Q.   And would it be -- I'd ask you to look at Milan Lukic in the

 4     courtroom today, and I'd ask the audio video to put Mr. Milan Lukic on

 5     the screen, please.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Before you do that, I'd like the witness to tell

 7     us something more about this birth mark.  Could you be a little more

 8     specific, give us more details about this birth mark that you say was on

 9     the right side cheek of Mr. Lukic?  How did it appear and how large was

10     it?  Did it have a particular colour?  That kind of detail.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was just a small kind of growth,

12     greyish in colour.  It wasn't very large.  It was just a small growth of

13     a greyish colour.  It looked like a mole.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Where was it?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I said then that it

16     was on the right cheek, on Mr. Lukic's right cheek.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Yes, go ahead, Mr. Alarid.

18             MR. ALARID:  And at this time I would ask Mr. Lukic to turn to

19     show his right cheek slightly to the camera.

20        Q.   Isn't it true that Mr. Lukic does not have any mole on his right

21     cheek?

22        A.   Yes, he has two on the left side here, on the image.

23        Q.   And that's not what you described in your sworn statement, isn't

24     that true?

25        A.   That's what it would seem like.

Page 391

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  [Microphone not activated]

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, please.  Would you have that

 4     video shown again of Mr. Lukic's face?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here we can see that there are no

 6     moles on the right-hand side but there are some on the left-hand side and

 7     I think that in one of my statements, I said that I didn't remember

 8     whether it was on the right side or the left side.  I think that it's

 9     somewhere in the statements, or in one of the statements.  You can go

10     through them and see.

11             MR. ALARID:

12        Q.   Now, the interesting thing is this, though, is at June 7th, 1992,

13     you claim that Mr. Lukic had painted his face and arms black, isn't that

14     true?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And would it be fair to assume that anyone that did that at that

17     time was maybe attempting to conceal their features?

18        A.   Probably.

19        Q.   And that painting someone's face black, it would be hard to see

20     any mole of any kind, correct?

21        A.   Well, they were not totally concealing the skin tone and

22     everything.  It was just a little bit of colour.  It wasn't grease paint

23     that would cover everything.  Perhaps it could have been just soot that

24     he put on his hand and just dabbed on his face.

25        Q.   And that's why in your statement you claim to still be able to

Page 392

 1     see this large mole, despite the soot?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And there is no mole today on his right cheek, isn't that true?

 4        A.   Yes.  I'm saying it again, that I said in one of my statements,

 5     yes, in the statement that I have in front of me, it does say that it's

 6     on the right side, but in one of the statements, it says that I don't

 7     remember if it was on the right side or the left side.  Maybe you can

 8     look for that and then ...

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, no doubt, will bring that to your

10     attention in re-examination.

11             MR. ALARID:

12        Q.   Now, regardless, the person you claim to be Milan Lukic you claim

13     had a camouflage uniform, correct?

14        A.   Yes, blue camouflage uniform.

15        Q.   And what time in the afternoon-evening did the supposed

16     Milan Lukic come to your door and knock on it?

17        A.   About 5.30 p.m.

18        Q.   And how long was the total detention before you were at the bank

19     of the Drina River?

20        A.   From the point in time that I was taken out of my house, until

21     the moment that I survived at the Drina River bank, and when I stood up

22     to escape, I had a wrist watch, and I looked and it was 7.45 p.m.

23        Q.   And with regards to the time, you claim that you were at many

24     times less than an arm length's away from this man you claim to be

25     Milan Lukic?

Page 393

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Did anyone in the -- and isn't it true that according to you, no

 3     one in this group of people that shot at you were wearing black, other

 4     than their faces?

 5        A.   You mean wearing a black uniform?

 6        Q.   Yes, sir.

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Any black scarves?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Any -- [Microphone not activated]

11        A.   Could you please say that again?

12        Q.   Any black scarves with skulls?

13        A.   I didn't notice anything like that, no.

14        Q.   Would it be fair to say that in your earlier statement, you said

15     that Mr. Milan Lukic had an impressive and distinct black mole?

16        A.   I did say that he had a mole.  Now, I again claim that in one of

17     my statements, I said that he had it on a part of his face.  Whether it

18     was on the right or left part of his face, I don't know.  It is in one of

19     the statements.  In this statement which is before me, it is actually

20     stated it was on the right cheek.

21        Q.   Now --

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid?

23             MR. ALARID:  Yes, sir.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Where is the statement in which you say he said

25     that Mr. Lukic had an impressive and distinct black mole?  You can't

Page 394

 1     leave it like that.  I'd like to see that statement.

 2             MR. ALARID:  Yes, sir, and I think at that time this point in

 3     time, Your Honour, given the other -- we could just introduce the

 4     statement.  I don't have my English copy anymore, Judge, of the short

 5     one.  I don't believe it's in that one.  It's in the larger one.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Is the Prosecutor able to assist with that?

 7             MR. GROOME:  I do have a copy of the -- I only have one copy of

 8     the large ore statement but his testimony or his statement shall evidence

 9     there was he had a mole on his face, I don't know which side of his face,

10     it was just on the cheek, above the lips, on the side of the nose.

11             MR. ALARID:  I guess I was mistaken, Your Honour.  I was passed a

12     note.  I'm sorry.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So it's not part of your case, then, that in an

14     earlier statement, the witness said that Mr. Lukic had an impressive and

15     distinct black mole?

16             MR. ALARID:  No, judge it may have been just a memory of my case

17     manager.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see.  Okay.  Thank you.

19             MR. ALARID:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Now, with regards to the -- who was also taken with you at the

21     June 7th, 1992?

22        A.   From my house, myself and Amir Kurtalic were taken away.  I've

23     already said this before.  Namely that he had fled from the village of

24     Kurtalici.  Then from the neighbouring street, Meho and Ekrem Dzafic,

25     Hasan Mutapcic and Hasan Kustura and VG-032.

Page 395

 1        Q.   And with you was claimed to be this gentleman named Montenegro?

 2        A.   Yes.  This is what Lukic called him.

 3        Q.   And you claim that he was younger?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   How much younger than 22, 23, 24?

 6        A.   Well, I did not celebrate his birthdays with him.  I don't know

 7     how much younger exactly he was.  I didn't ask him about his age.  I

 8     think it will suffice if I just say he was a younger man.  I can't say

 9     exactly by how many years younger.

10        Q.   He was in an SMB uniform?

11        A.   Yes, he was.

12        Q.   What colour is an SMB uniform?

13        A.   This is a dark green colour.  One knows what an olive drab colour

14     is.  It is the colour worn by the former JNA, by the troops of the former

15     JNA, their uniform colour.

16        Q.   And should anyone in Bosnia or Serbia confuse the colour of an

17     SMB uniform?

18        A.   Well, I don't know whether anyone should confuse it or could

19     confuse it.  When I was doing my military service, we all called it the

20     SMB or olive-drab colour, and I don't know of any other designation.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now, how did you know Amir Kurtalic?

22        A.   The house in which I lived at Bikavac was the property of his

23     sister, who was then living in Sarajevo, so when he left his village of

24     Kurtalici, he came to stay at his sister's house so that we lived there

25     together for a while.

Page 396

 1        Q.   And it was you and Amir and supposedly Montenegro and the

 2     supposed Milan that went and met the grey Yugo?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And on the next street, it was a blond, curly haired, thin,

 5     30-year-old soldier?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And he was wearing camouflage, correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   What colour camouflage?

10        A.   That is a combination of dark green and a light green colour.

11        Q.   And the blue camouflage, what combinations were those?

12        A.   No.  That is a combination of navy or dark blue and light blue.

13        Q.   Any white or grey?

14        A.   I don't remember now those uniforms really.  I could not give you

15     an answer there.

16        Q.   Now, when you went to the Vilina Vlas Hotel, you claim that there

17     were five people in the Yugo, correct?  Let's put it this way:  How many

18     people were in the Yugo and how many people were in the Passat before you

19     arrived in the Vilina Vlas?

20        A.   In the Yugo, there were five people, four men of Muslim ethnicity

21     and a soldier, the soldier that we referred to before with blond, curly

22     hair, and in the Passat there were three men of Muslim ethnicity and

23     Lukic and this allegedly Montenegro -- this person called Montenegro.

24        Q.   And when you arrived at the Vilina Vlas, an extra person got

25     there, correct, or joined you, correct?

Page 397

 1        A.   No, no persons joined us at Vilina Vlas but we recognised some

 2     persons there.

 3        Q.   That was Momir Savic?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   And you claim that you knew him from before as well, correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  Just by sight, nothing personal.

 7        Q.   By sight, where would you see him, how often would you see him

 8     during your times in Visegrad?

 9        A.   Very rarely.  He was working in Varda, in Visegrad.  I was

10     working in another place so that we saw each other only very

11     infrequently.

12        Q.   And Mitar Vasiljevic, you knew him from the Panos Hotel?

13        A.   That's right.

14        Q.   And how often would you see him supposedly?

15        A.   The school that I attended in Visegrad was behind the Panos, so

16     on my way to school and back, I had to pass by Panos.  So that's when I

17     saw him.  And also when I stayed at the hotel where we had a sort of

18     lottery or Bingo game, and I would go there to play that game and have a

19     drink or two or sometimes also for lunch, and that's how I got to see

20     him.

21        Q.   Would it be fair to say that you saw Mitar Vasiljevic more than

22     you saw Milan Lukic back in high school?

23        A.   It's not exactly that I saw Mitar more often.  Perhaps I saw less

24     of Mitar Vasiljevic then because I was a young lad, and I didn't go to

25     restaurants and such establishments at that time.

Page 398

 1        Q.   You said you passed by the Panos every day while you were in

 2     school.

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   And so would that -- did that mean you saw him almost every day

 5     you passed by?

 6        A.   No.  That would not mean that, because work was in shifts then.

 7     There was the first and the second shift.  So I could not see him every

 8     day because of that.

 9        Q.   Now, back to the blond soldier, you claim that you knew him but

10     didn't know his name.  Where did you know him from?

11        A.   Just from passing, I saw him sometimes in passing, that's all.

12        Q.   Passing as a local Serbian or passing during the days you were

13     going by check-points?

14        A.   I can't recall that.  Perhaps during peacetime.  I can't remember

15     really.

16        Q.   Well, he's either someone you recognised as a local Visegrad

17     citizen or someone you just recognised because you've seen him more than

18     once in the area during the wartime.

19        A.   I can't say whether it was from the time of peace or wartime.  I

20     really cannot remember.  16 years have passed and some of the memories

21     have been deleted from my mind.  I cannot recall every single detail.

22        Q.   And there was another soldier you knew at the Vilina Vlas Hotel,

23     correct?  Approximately 50 years old?

24        A.   Yes.  I think it was Susnjar.  I don't know his first name.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, I'm told you have ten minutes left.

Page 399

 1             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Judge.

 2        Q.   And during the time that you were with these soldiers, nobody

 3     referred to Milan Lukic by title or name, isn't that true?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   And no time in your home did anyone refer to Milan Lukic by title

 6     or name, isn't that true?

 7        A.   No.  I didn't notice anything like that.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What do you mean by refer to him?

 9             MR. ALARID:  They never called him Milan, Mr. Lukic, or

10     commander, Captain, those kinds of things.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

12             MR. ALARID:

13        Q.   Would that be fair, Mr. 14?

14        A.   Could you please be more specific?  Clarify your question,

15     please.

16        Q.   No one deferred to him by a title of rank?

17        A.   Yes.  It would be fair to say that that's true.

18        Q.   Now, I'd like to move forward to the field by the Drina River.

19     When you got out of the Drina, you said you marched towards the Drina in

20     a column and single file, is that what you stated?

21        A.   We marched in a column, one behind the other, in a single file,

22     yes, one behind the other.

23        Q.   And with soldiers on either side?

24        A.   Yes, on the right-hand side were Milan Lukic and

25     Mitar Vasiljevic, and the other two soldiers were on our left-hand side.

Page 400

 1        Q.   Now, can you please explain to the Court how six people entered a

 2     Yugo, and was it a two-door or a four-door?

 3        A.   Every Yugo is a two-door vehicle, and how six people got into it,

 4     they know that.  I don't know that.

 5        Q.   Well, I mean, you were stopped at the Vilina Vlas and the windows

 6     were not obscured to the Passat, correct?

 7        A.   Well, I wasn't paying attention then, whether the Passat was

 8     visible or not.  I was thinking about what was going to happen to us.  I

 9     was not interested where the Yugo was or what the Passat was like or

10     anything like that.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Is the Yugo a small car, a medium-sized car or a

12     large car?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yugo is a medium-sized car.  It is

14     not of the smallest kind, and it is definitely not of the large kind.  It

15     is a medium sized car.  It was a five seater at any rate.

16             MR. ALARID:

17        Q.   You were not wearing blindfolds or hoods?

18        A.   No, no.

19        Q.   What kind of car is a Peglica?

20        A.   The Peglica is a small car, it is a smaller car than the Yugo, I

21     think.  I saw some Peglicas in town, but I have never driven one or sat

22     in one.  I cannot tell you exactly how spacious it is or how many seats

23     it has or things like that.  I couldn't explain.

24        Q.   Would it be difficult to get six people into a Peglica?

25        A.   I think that it would be difficult, yes.  Now, whether it could

Page 401

 1     be done, whether someone could or would put six people inside, if he had

 2     to, perhaps then it would be possible, maybe even ten people could be put

 3     inside; but according to regulations, it is registered for five people.

 4        Q.   How would you know the regulations?

 5        A.   I'm a driver myself.  I have to be aware of regulations.  I have

 6     to know how many people I can drive in my vehicle.  I can put four people

 7     inside and I can also be inside as the driver as the fifth person.

 8     Otherwise I would have to pay a fine.  That's why I know.

 9        Q.   And that's for a Yugo as well?

10        A.   That's right.

11        Q.   Now, considering the fact that there were two Serbian soldiers in

12     the Yugo and four Muslims, you mean to tell me you didn't hear any kind

13     of discontent about who was going to sit where in this too-small car?

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I mean, he has said it was medium size.  His own

15     evidence in answer to me is that it was a medium-size car.  So it's not

16     fair to put to him that it was a small car.

17             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour with all due respect to the semantics of

18     medium or small we could produce pictures of Yugos.  They are a compact

19     car, at least in my opinion, but of course I'm not giving evidence; and I

20     guess we could produce photos of a Yugo at some point in time.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But his evidence is that it was a medium size

22     car.

23             MR. ALARID:  Fair enough, Judge.

24        Q.   But this medium-size car still only took five passengers,

25     correct?

Page 402

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And when the shooting began at the Drina River, your positive it

 3     was single individual shooting, correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And having been in the JNA and training, you know the difference

 6     between automatic gunfire and single-shot fire, correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  It is a big difference.

 8        Q.   And anyone should be able to tell the difference between that

 9     just listening to it; would that be fair?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And that would include at a distance, such as when the Serbs were

12     having gun training on the other side of the forest?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And when you escaped this, you travelled to a village and stayed

15     there for a few days?

16        A.   I apologise.  You mean when I fled the scene where we were

17     executed and then fled to the villages?  If that's what you mean?

18        Q.   Yes, sir, if that's what I mean.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm very confused, the witness is

20     asking for Mr. Alarid to clarify the question.  Now Mr. Alarid is saying,

21     If that's what you understand me to mean, that's what I mean.  I think we

22     are getting a bit circular here.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, just ask the question, reformulate it,

24     Mr. Alarid.

25             MR. ALARID:  Yes, sir.

Page 403

 1        Q.   Isn't it true that when you escaped the attempted execution, you

 2     went to a village?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Did you speak with -- did you speak with citizens of this village

 5     about the incident that happened at the river?

 6        A.   When I arrived at the village, I told the people that that

 7     incident had happened, that we had been led to that spot, and I took some

 8     of the villagers to the place for them to see it.  My village was quite

 9     near the scene of the incident.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The time keeper tells me that your time is up.

11     What -- did you have a few more questions?

12             MR. ALARID:  Just a few, Your Honour, considering that we are at

13     the ends of the sort of the story, if you will.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, but you must be brief.

15             MR. ALARID:  I will, sir; I will, yes, sir.

16        Q.   Mr. 14, when you say you took these people over there, didn't

17     that mean you had to enter sort of enemy territory to do that?

18        A.   No.  At that time, my village was not under enemy siege.  It was

19     a secure village.  There were no troops there, nor were there any

20     individuals there taking people away from the village and similar.

21        Q.   I'm not referring to that.  I'm referring to the river bank.

22        A.   No.  I did not take them to the river bank.  We looked from a

23     nearby hill.  We looked at that spot from the other bank of the river

24     Drina, from a hillock on a meadow which was mine which I used as a local,

25     as a villager.  It wasn't on the bank of the river proper that we were.

Page 404

 1        Q.   How far away was your vantage point when you took these people

 2     there to see the river bank?

 3        A.   Well, approximately 500 metres.

 4        Q.   And is it -- did -- of the people you spoke to in the village,

 5     did anyone come to you and say they witnessed this as well?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes.  I believe that I've already mentioned two of my

 7     neighbours who were working in the field quite near the scene of the

 8     event but on this other bank of the river, on the other side, on the left

 9     bank, and that they heard shooting and they actually took cover in the

10     field because they were thinking someone was shooting at them.  I think I

11     have already referred to this as to the best of my recollection.

12        Q.   To the best of your recollection, isn't it true that someone from

13     the other bank fired at the position where you were at in defence of your

14     situation?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Isn't it true that the -- who were the -- and I -- could we go

17     into private session for purposes of an asking for a name?

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, private session.  Private session, please.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 405











11  Page 405 redacted. Private session.















Page 406

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             MR. ALARID:  Yes.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But I must say your cross-examination has been

11     germane in my view at any rate.  Are you at an end?

12             MR. ALARID:  I think so.  I would like to opportunity to see the

13     English translation just to make any references if need be and otherwise

14     I'm just about finished.  I'm finished.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The English translation of ...

16             MR. ALARID:  The 1994 statement.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It has been provided, Mr. Groome says, so your

18     case manager should have that but can you pass that to Mr. Alarid?  We

19     have a very cooperative Prosecutor.

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour it was disclosed the 11th of October

21     last year.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

23             MR. ALARID:  Could we take the break to allow me to read this,

24     Judge?

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, but I don't want to give the impression

Page 407

 1     that I'm allowing you to prolong this.  We'll take the break, and we'll

 2     resume in 20 minutes.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, you have seen the document?

 6             MR. ALARID:  I have, Your Honour, and at this point in time we

 7     would have no further questions of this witness.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  I have a question for you, though.  I

 9     notice Mr. Groome is not here.

10             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I'm sure he's detained for only a couple of

11     minutes.  I would can the Court's indulgence.  Thanks.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  It wasn't clear to me what the

13     significance was of the questions that you have put to the witness

14     regarding his neighbours witnessing the river incident.  What's the

15     relevance?  Are you saying that that incident didn't take place?

16             MR. ALARID:  I'm saying it took place in a manner different than

17     this witness described, and I do believe the next witness addresses that.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see.  Thank you.

19             Before -- Mr. Groome are you going to re-examine?

20             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Okay.  I wanted to ask the witness two

22     questions.  Witness, you remember that you have testified that Mr. Lukic

23     was a quiet boy at school, he didn't fight with Muslims, he had

24     occasionally greeted you.  Against that background, I want to ask you

25     whether the first time when you heard of his activities in the conflict,

Page 408

 1     and I believe you said that that you heard of some incidents in which he

 2     was involved before the killing of Ms. Zukic, were you surprised to hear

 3     that being said about Mr. Lukic, the person that you knew at school?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I couldn't even believe that

 5     something like that could be, that a person could change so much and do

 6     such things that are not typical of his behaviour or generally that a

 7     person can be kill at all for any reason because he's a Muslim or some

 8     other reason, I don't know.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You said that you couldn't believe something

10     like that could take place, that a person could change so much.  So that

11     are you then saying that the activities that you heard of, as being

12     attributed to Mr. Lukic, the conduct that was attributed to him, you

13     found that to be out of character, to be inconsistent with the person

14     that you knew at school?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You also told us that the last time before you

17     saw Mr. Lukic in June of 1992 was the year he left school, which was

18     1984?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  When he left school, he would have been 17, and

21     when you saw him again in 1992, he would have been 25 or thereabouts.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thereabouts.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  A person's appearance can change between the age

24     of 17 and 25.  Would that be a fair assessment?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a person can change, but they

Page 409

 1     cannot change so much that they would become unrecognisable or something

 2     like that.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What I wanted to ask you was whether the

 4     Mr. Lukic that you saw in 1992 was the same person physically -- had he

 5     put on more weight, for example -- as the person that you last saw in

 6     1984?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, during that time, eight years

 8     or so, a person can grow.  He was taller, and I said that in my

 9     statement, he had brown hair, and he wasn't that much fatter.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But as compared with 1992, you have said that

11     the person, Mr. Lukic, who is in court today, is fatter than the person

12     that you remember.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Compared to 1992.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Mr. Groome?

15                           Re-examination by Mr. Groome:

16        Q.   Mr. VG-014 I want to clarify a few matters that were raised in

17     cross-examination.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Let me just make -- get

19     something clear.  Mr. Cepic, do you have any questions for this witness?

20             MR. CEPIC:  No, Your Honour, no questions for this witness.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Groome.

22             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Am I correct in stating that the -- a Chetnik refers to a

24     movement that was very prominent in the Second World War, resistance

25     movement, by Serbs that resisted the Nazi invasion of the territory?  Is

Page 410

 1     that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And is it fair to say that today, people that are still very

 4     loyal to that movement, very proud of their participation in that

 5     movement, will, with pride, refer to themselves as Chetniks?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  I think that they do so.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cepic?

 8             MR. CEPIC:  Just one technical matter.  I think it that those

 9     questions have a character of leading questions which are not allowed in

10     re-examination.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's quite true, Mr. Groome.

12             MR. GROOME:  It's such a tangential matter.  I don't think it

13     required --

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I can put it to him then.  So is Chetnik a

15     derogatory term?  Do you understand what I mean?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I understand.  As far as I'm

17     concerned, yes, it is a derogatory word, Chetnik, balija, yes; but as for

18     how people like to refer to Serbs, well, that's their affair, their

19     problem.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  How people choose to

21     refer to themselves, that's their problem.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Groome?

23             MR. GROOME:

24        Q.   Would it be offensive under any circumstances for someone to

25     refer to a Muslim as a balija?

Page 411

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You have testified that you had between 300 and 400 students in

 3     your year, in the technical school that you and Milan Lukic attended.

 4     Did you know every one of those 300 to 400 people?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   If I were to give you a pad of paper now and we were to give you

 7     approximately an hour or so, how many names do you think you could record

 8     of people you attended school, who were in the same year as you and

 9     Milan Lukic in school?

10        A.   I don't know the exact number that I would be able to recall.

11     I've forgotten some names.  Perhaps if I were to read the name then I

12     would remember, yes, that person went to school with me.  There were lots

13     of names.  Some of those people are still alive.  Some are not.  Perhaps

14     if you wish to check my ability to do so, I mean, we can do that.  I'm

15     willing.

16        Q.   I'm not asking that we actually engage in the exercise.  I'm just

17     asking you if you're able to approximate how many names do you think you

18     would be able to remember from your school days?

19        A.   Maybe 100 to 150 people.

20        Q.   And out of those 100 to 150 names that you would write, would

21     they be Muslim names, Serb names or a combination of both?

22        A.   A combination of both, both ethnic groups.

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Alarid asked you -- I don't have the precise wording of

24     the question, but it was something along the lines that you in the Passat

25     did you not notice some discontent in the Yugo when people were being in

Page 412

 1     his view, too many people were being asked to sit in the car.  It seems

 2     to me that maybe you haven't made clear the sense among the men that were

 3     being detained.  Can I ask you to describe the state of -- your state of

 4     mind and the state of mind of the other men that were detained at the

 5     time you were being forced into the car and taken away?

 6        A.   My feeling was that I had been taken away, I'm going to be beaten

 7     up perhaps, mistreated, maybe even killed.  These were my thoughts as I

 8     was being driven from my house to the Vilina Vlas Hotel and then from

 9     Vilina Vlas to the river Drina.  My only thought was that I would be

10     executed somewhere or mistreated, abused.  This is all the -- these are

11     all the thoughts, the only thoughts, that were going through my mind at

12     the time.

13        Q.   Was the situation such that you felt that you or the other men

14     could say to Milan Lukic, look, it's too crowded in that car, I'd like a

15     window seat, please don't make me sit in the middle?

16        A.   No.

17             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I could gain the assistance of the

18     director, could I ask that we once again zoom in to Mr. Lukic who seems

19     happy enough to show his features, so I'd ask if we could zoom in again

20     once so I could ask if he turn so that we could see the left side of his

21     face.  I have my video monitor, I'm not able to see it, if the director

22     would be able to zoom in.

23        Q.   Now, I'm going to read your statement that -- your first

24     statement.  If Mr. Lukic, if you could turn your head the other way so we

25     could see the left side of your face, the other way, please.  He had a

Page 413

 1     mole on his face, I don't know on which side of his face, please turn --

 2     if you could look to your right again, Mr. Lukic, he had a mole on his

 3     face, I don't know on which side of his face, it was just on the cheek,

 4     above the lips, on the side of the nose.  Now we can see, Mr. Lukic has

 5     what appear to be two moles on the left side of his face.  Are they

 6     consistent with the moles as you recall them?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   I'd ask Mr. Lukic now to look to the left -- to his left.  If you

 9     could look towards Mr. Sredoje Lukic.  And if we could zoom in just on

10     his cheek, and VG-014, do you see what appears to be a small round scar

11     consistent with a mole having been removed?

12        A.   Well, the scar is visible.  It's -- I don't need to explain where

13     it is.  I don't know if it could have been removed or if it's a scar from

14     youth.  I really couldn't say.  But in any case, the scar is very clearly

15     visible.

16             MR. GROOME:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Sorry, just let us remind ourselves, at least

18     I'd like to be reminded where exactly did the witness say the mole was,

19     the one on the right side?

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, in the statement dated the 5th of

21     February, 1998, it was not in evidence, so I was reading simply the line

22     that referred to it.  I can simply tender it into evidence if the Court

23     would like the entire statement.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

25             MR. GROOME:  I it's not an e-court exhibit but I can give the ERN

Page 414

 1     number and perhaps we can send an electronic copy at the next break.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can you just read that part, you said something

 3     about above the lip.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Okay I'm quoting from --

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 6             MR. GROOME:  -- page 5 of that statement, the ERN number on this

 7     particular page is 00584533:

 8             "He had a mole on his face, I don't know on which side of his

 9     face.  It was just on the cheek, above the lips, on the side of the

10     nose."

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So we are going to have that in evidence.

13             MR. GROOME:  So Your Honour, if I could tender the statement of

14     VG-014 under seal dated the 5th of February 1998 bearing ERN numbers

15     00584529 to 00584538, we will forward an electronic copy to the registrar

16     as soon as possible.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And we'll admit that.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours that will become Exhibit P5 under

19     seal.

20             MR. GROOME:

21        Q.   Now, VG-014 --

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour could I also ask that --

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a second, please.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  My colleague is saying that we should also have

Page 415

 1     in evidence the shots of his face.

 2             MR. GROOME:  I was just going to suggest that, Your Honour, if

 3     it's technically possible, I would ask the director to produce stills of

 4     the two sides of the face and the Prosecution would tender those.

 5     Perhaps over the next break, I can explore that with the director and

 6     then formally tender them once I have the still images.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   VG-014, Mr. Alarid has made numerous assertions that for reasons

10     that you dislike Serbs, for personal vengeance or because of rumour you

11     are falsely accusing Milan Lukic of this crime.  Did you come here to The

12     Hague to falsely accuse Mr. Milan Lukic of trying to kill you?

13             MR. ALARID:  Objection, Your Honour, leading.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'll allow it.  I don't consider that to be

15     leading.  It arises from your cross-examination.  It's not leading.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not come to The Hague to

17     testify because I don't like Serbs or anything like that.  I came to

18     testify about a true event that happened to me on the 7th of June 1992.

19     This is a true incident, and I stand behind my words.

20             MR. GROOME:

21        Q.   Mr. Alarid has spent sometime with you discussing your knowledge

22     of many different crimes perpetrated by local Serbs against the Muslim

23     population of Visegrad.  If I were to ask you to list the names of all of

24     the people who you heard, all of the names of local Serbs, who you heard

25     had perpetrated crimes, serious crimes, against Muslims, without telling

Page 416

 1     us the names?

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic is on his feet.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Could I finish the question before there is an

 4     objection to it?

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, let's hear it.

 6             MR. GROOME:

 7        Q.   Without asking you to tell us any names, can you tell us

 8     approximately how long would that list be how many different people do

 9     you believe perpetrated crimes against the Muslim population of Visegrad?

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What is the point of that question, Mr. Groome?

11             MR. GROOME:  I think it will be clear with my next question, Your

12     Honour.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What is your objection, Mr. Cepic?

14             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour with your leave the same as yours because

15     this is something which was not raised from cross-examination.

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I believe it will be very clear how it

17     was raised in cross-examination in my next couple of questions.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let me hear the next question.

19             MR. GROOME:  Without an answer to this question?

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, let me hear what the next question is --

21     would be.

22             MR. GROOME:

23        Q.   You have testified that in addition to Milan Lukic and

24     Mitar Vasiljevic, taking the men down to the river and shooting them,

25     there were two other men there that you were not able to recognise or

Page 417

 1     identify.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You have not falsely claimed or attributed the conduct of those

 4     two unidentified men to other people who you believe through rumour or

 5     other information you have perpetrated crimes against Muslims, did you?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So I can re-ask my initial question:  How long would that list be

 8     of possible people, if you wanted to attribute falsely accuse them

 9     because you believed based on rumours that they were bad people, they had

10     done something terrible to the Muslim population, how long a list would

11     that be?

12        A.   To be honest, I don't have a number for such people, but

13     according to what I knew, perhaps -- and I don't want to exaggerate, but

14     it would be about 30 people.

15        Q.   In fact, in your testimony you refer to two other people being

16     involved in your detention at the Vilina Vlas.  They were people by the

17     name of Susnjar and Momir Savic; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, but to clarify a little bit, they did not take part in the

19     arrests.  I saw them at the Vilina Vlas Hotel.  They didn't come to get

20     me.  I found them at the hotel.  I saw them at the hotel, Vilina Vlas.

21        Q.   And you're not saying that they had anything to do with what

22     happened down at the river, are you?

23        A.   That's right.

24        Q.   You said that your brother was beaten at the police station, in

25     response to a question of Mr. Alarid; is that correct?

Page 418

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You've also said that you knew Sredoje Lukic as being a police

 3     officer in that police station.

 4             MR. CEPIC:  Objection.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 6             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, we already have clear answer from the

 7     witness who was present -- who were present in police station at that

 8     time so -- and we have a clear answer to relation to the Sredoje Lukic in

 9     direct examination.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, let me understand your objection,

11     though.  You're saying the question has already been answered?  Or that

12     it doesn't arise?

13             MR. CEPIC:  We already have the answer on this question.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, the previous question is -- you have said

15     that your brother was beaten at the police station, and he said yes.

16     Then the next question is you've also said that you knew Sredoje Lukic as

17     being a police officer in that police station.  So how has that question

18     been answered?

19             MR. CEPIC:  Firstly, the witness explained who were present in

20     police station in cross-examination related to that incident in police

21     station.  In his previous testimony, direct examination, he explained

22     about position of Sredoje Lukic and his knowledge about him.  There is

23     nothing which is raised related to Sredoje Lukic from the

24     cross-examination.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, that's a different point.  That's the

Page 419

 1     points you should make.  That's the point you should make.  He is saying

 2     that it doesn't arise from cross-examination.  I'll consult my colleagues

 3     but I'm inclined to agree.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, what's your position on this?

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I can rephrase the question I think

 7     it will be very clear and this is nothing I think Mr. Cepic's objections

 8     are -- I think he's concerned about something that I certainly don't

 9     intend so -- if I could ask the question another way.

10        Q.   VG-014, you've testified that your brother was beaten in the

11     police station, you've testified that Sredoje Lukic was a police officer

12     in that police station, you have not falsely accused Sredoje Lukic of

13     anything before this Court, have you?

14             MR. CEPIC:  Objection.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

16             MR. CEPIC:  We already have that answer, Your Honour and this is

17     not from cross-examination; it is not raised from cross-examination,

18     Mr. Groome asked about Sredoje Lukic in direct examination, and we have a

19     clear answer in transcript.

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, what was raised in cross-examination

21     was that this man is falsely accused Milan Lukic.  What I'm establishing

22     here is that although he may have a motive to dislike Sredoje Lukic

23     because his brother was beaten in the very place that he worked, he

24     hasn't come here and falsely accused Sredoje Lukic and that is something

25     that the Chamber should consider in evaluating his credibility with

Page 420

 1     respect to his identification of Milan Lukic.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But let Mr. Alarid -- Mr. Alarid?

 3             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I would object from the standpoint of

 4     this:  One on direct examination and cross-examination, the witness

 5     indicated military police with white belts were at the police station.

 6     That was the point I elicited on cross-examination.  But in addition to

 7     that, I think the Prosecution is leading to the point of eliciting

 8     self-serving answers relating to his own credibility.  I understand the

 9     point he's trying to make, I think the question is improper on that

10     basis.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  We don't consider that a lot turns on this

13     issue but we believe strictly speaking it does arise because the

14     cross-examination raised questions of the prejudice of this witness in

15     relation to other persons.  So to that extent we allow the question.

16             MR. GROOME:

17        Q.   So VG-014, if I could just put to you the last part of the

18     question I think remember the first part you haven't falsely accused

19     Milan -- Sredoje Lukic of having anything to do with what happened to you

20     on the 7th, have you?

21        A.   I had no contact whatsoever with Sredoje Lukic, so that I cannot

22     say anything in the sense that he had done anything or that he had done

23     anything to me, so that I'm not accusing him of anything.

24        Q.   Just my final couple of questions for you.  Is again you said you

25     graduated in 1985, is that correct, from your technical school?

Page 421

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And you said that you went back in 2004, I believe you said, to

 3     get some papers or certificates; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  I needed my diploma as evidence in the company that I had

 5     completed secondary school.

 6        Q.   Then you also testified that when you went back after 19 years,

 7     you recognised the present director of the school as someone you knew

 8     from your school days as a person by the name of Koke, is that true?

 9        A.   Yes.  That is how we knew him because prior to assuming the post

10     of school principal he was a Professor of physical education.

11        Q.   Any doubt in your mind that it was the same person, Koke, that

12     you knew from your school days?

13        A.   No, no doubt whatsoever.

14        Q.   How long did it take you to recognise this person named Koke, the

15     person you recall from your school days?

16        A.   When you see a person that you know, a short time will suffice

17     for one to recognise that person, if you know that person well, and I did

18     know him well because he had been my physical education teacher for three

19     years; so I had no difficulty at all recognising that person.

20        Q.   Then my final question to you is is there any doubt in your mind,

21     and if you have the slightest doubt it's important that you be candid

22     with the Chamber, that the man you've identified in this courtroom as

23     Milan Lukic is the same person who took you down to the Drina on the 7th

24     of June and attempted to kill you?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 422

 1        Q.   Are you saying you do have a doubt?

 2        A.   No, no.  I have no doubt.  That is the person who arrested me in

 3     my house, took me to the Drina, and attempted to kill me.

 4             MR. GROOME:  No further questions, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness.  That concludes your evidence.  We

 6     thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it.  You may now leave.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Next witness, Mr. Groome?

10             MS. MARCUS:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours,

11     Maxine Marcus appearing for the Prosecution.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm sorry, yes, and Ms. Marcus, your next

13     witness, please?

14             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, the Prosecution calls VG-079, who similarly is

15     a protected witness, so maybe the closed session could remain until he

16     enters.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18                           [Trial chamber and legal officer confer]

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

22                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VG-079

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may sit.  Before you begin, Ms. Marcus, for

25     this witness, the Chamber will allow one hour for cross-examination.

Page 423

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you very much.  Can I ask the pseudonym sheet

 2     to be passed to the witness?

 3                           Examination by Ms. Marcus:

 4        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Witness.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   As you know, you have been granted protective measures for the

 7     purposes of these proceedings; and therefore, you will be referred to by

 8     the pseudonym VG-079.  Can you confirm that on the paper in front of you

 9     you see your name?

10        A.   Yes, I can.

11        Q.   And can you confirm that you see your date of birth?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Could you please sign your name to that sheet?

14        A.   [Marks]

15             MS. MARCUS:  The Prosecution would like to tender the pseudonym

16     sheet into evidence under seal, please.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We admit it.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours the exhibit will become P6 under

19     seal.

20             MS. MARCUS:  Can I kindly request that we go into private session

21     for the few introductory questions?

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 424

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

21             MS. MARCUS:

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, what is your ethnicity?

23        A.   I am a Bosniak.

24        Q.   Did you give sworn testimony before this Tribunal on the 11th and

25     12th of September of 2001 in the case against Mitar Vasiljevic?

Page 425

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   Did you have the opportunity to review that testimony prior to

 3     coming to court today in the Bosnian language?

 4        A.   Yes, I did.

 5        Q.   This morning, you clarified one point from your prior testimony

 6     where you were asked, after the incident that you witnessed, you were

 7     asked if you had seen either of the survivors or spoken to either of the

 8     survivors after the incident.  And in your testimony, you said you

 9     hadn't.  Would you like to clarify anything about that this morning?

10        A.   Because I was present when my colleague who was unfortunately

11     killed, he talked to a new one of these lads, and I was present when he

12     talked to him for a very short while, perhaps some five minutes.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, please.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Marcus, I didn't quite understand the

16     question.  You said this morning, the witness clarified a point from his

17     prior testimony.

18             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And then you said, and in your testimony, he is

20     giving testimony here now, for the first time.  What are you talking

21     about?

22             MS. MARCUS:  I apologise, Your Honour, this witness is a 92 ter

23     witness, as such and he's been granted the status of 92 ter.  As such I'm

24     now seeking to confirm his prior testimony which he gave in the

25     Vasiljevic case.  He had one clarification which he made in proofing and

Page 426

 1     with that clarification in mind, I will then ask him to confirm that he

 2     would give the same answers and then I would seek to admit the prior

 3     testimony as part of his 92 ter package.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see.  Yes.  Proceed.

 5             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   With that clarification that you just made, if you were to be

 7     asked the same questions today, which you were asked when you provided

 8     your previous testimony, would you provide the same responses?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours the Prosecution seeks to tender 65 ter

11     numbers 135 and 136 into evidence which are the transcripts of this

12     witness's prior testimony.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we admit it.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours 65 ter 135 will become Exhibit P7,

15     and 136 will be become Exhibit P8.

16             MS. MARCUS:

17        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'd like to discuss a few issues in relation to the

18     incident you witnessed to which you previously testified.  Can you please

19     tell the Court if you recall the date of that incident?

20        A.   It was on the 6th or 7th of June 1992.

21        Q.   And where were you at the time?

22        A.   I had set out from the Jelacic house -- from Jelacici to Hamzici

23     to see whether my house had been burned down and to see my mother who, an

24     elderly woman, had remained a loan in the house and in the evening, as I

25     was returning, I could see that that was happening.

Page 427

 1        Q.   Precisely where was your observation point?

 2        A.   On the left bank of the Drina.  Just below the Hamzici village.

 3        Q.   Can you describe the surroundings where you were sitting?

 4        A.   Yes, I can.  Where I was there below the village some 400 to 450

 5     metres, as the crow flies.  It wasn't too far.  It wasn't exactly near

 6     either.

 7        Q.   Were you in a clearing, in a covered area, on a hill, in a field?

 8     Can you describe the spot you were sitting, please?

 9        A.   It's in a woods, in a copse, a small forest, it was sheltered, it

10     wasn't quite clear, in fact.

11        Q.   Why were you sitting there?

12        A.   Because as I said a while ago, I was going to see my house, to

13     get my mother, and I was returning with my colleague to where his family

14     was, and so we just stopped there; it just so happened that we were there

15     at that particular time, and we saw it, and we looked on.

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 428

 1        Q.   Were you watching with the naked eye?

 2        A.   I was watching with the naked eye, and he watched using

 3     binoculars, and he saw more of what was happening.

 4        Q.   Where is he today?

 5        A.   Unfortunately, he was killed.  He is no longer among the living.

 6        Q.   What did you see first?

 7        A.   I saw a car being parked at Sase.  There was another car that had

 8     already been parked there, and then from that spot, we saw some people

 9     going towards the Drina, towards a meadow with alfalfa and towards some

10     woods making their way towards the river.

11        Q.   Just as a point of clarification.  You said earlier you were on

12     the left bank of the river.  Which side did you see this car and these

13     people arrive on?

14        A.   On the right side of the river, on the right bank.

15        Q.   Do you recall how many people you saw?

16        A.   Ten or 11 people.  We couldn't make out one of them.  At least I

17     couldn't.  Perhaps my colleague could see him well, but there were

18     certainly ten and the 11th one was hidden by the woods from my vantage

19     point, that is.

20        Q.   Can you describe the people you saw walking down to the river?

21        A.   I knew Meho Dzafic, and Amir Kurtalic, and when my colleague said

22     that to me, I took the binoculars to ascertain whether it was the two of

23     them, because he said, "Here, these two are going down towards the bank."

24        Q.   In your previous testimony, on page 324, you were asked to

25     describe the group of people that you saw, including the two you've just

Page 429

 1     named.  You said, "Some wore uniforms; others had different kinds of

 2     clothes."  For the purposes of record that is page 324, lines 9 and 10.

 3     Could you say how many had uniforms and how many had different kinds of

 4     clothes?

 5        A.   The ones who were forward, we didn't look -- see them that well

 6     but they were in normal civilian clothes and footwear and these other

 7     ones had black or bluish uniforms on them, those, they were walking

 8     behind the first groups, the first group which was making their way

 9     towards the Drina; so we couldn't see exactly whether the uniform they

10     wore was black or blackish or bluish, but they were also carrying some

11     weapons.

12        Q.   How many armed men did you see?

13        A.   I saw three armed men.

14        Q.   Did you personally know any of them?

15        A.   No, I did not; and I couldn't see who they were.

16        Q.   Can you describe the weapons?

17        A.   They were rifles with long barrels.  Whether they were

18     machine-guns or semi-automatic rifles or light machine-guns, I couldn't

19     tell from that distance.

20        Q.   Did they all have the same weapons or different weapons?

21        A.   Well, as far as I could see, the weapons were similar, these long

22     barrels namely.

23        Q.   Now, the men in the front, who you described as being in civilian

24     clothes, do you recall how many there were of them?

25        A.   There were seven men in front, in front of them.

Page 430

 1        Q.   And you named two of them who you knew.  How did you know those

 2     two?

 3        A.   They are my colleagues and my relatives and we socialised quite a

 4     lot, and I easily recognised them.

 5        Q.   What did you see precisely after you saw the men walk down to the

 6     Drina?

 7        A.   When they came to the Drina, to the bank, three of them stayed,

 8     but we didn't see the other ones, if they had stayed in the woods or

 9     something; but in any case, they walked into the mud of the water, up to

10     some 30 centimetres depth, and then they opened bursts of fire on them.

11        Q.   Okay.  Can you please clarify a little bit?  Who did you see walk

12     into the water?

13        A.   I saw all of them walk into the water.  They walked in a line,

14     one behind the other, then they arranged them one -- to stand at a

15     distance from 20 to 50 centimetres apart, and then when the firing began,

16     people began to fall into the water, and I got very upset and I couldn't

17     watch that any longer.

18        Q.   Were you watching this with the naked eye or with the binoculars?

19        A.   With the naked eye, but when they dropped into the water, my

20     colleague gave me the binoculars then and he said to me, "Look what they

21     did."

22        Q.   How far behind the victims would you say the shooters were?

23        A.   Maybe six or seven metres.  I was standing far away, some 400 to

24     500 metres away, so I couldn't estimate the distance; but in any case

25     they were close to them, they were not standing far away.

Page 431

 1        Q.   And which direction were the victims facing?

 2        A.   They were facing the Drina.  They walked into the lake, and the

 3     other people with the weapons were behind them.

 4        Q.   Do you recall how many shooters you personally saw fire their

 5     weapons?

 6        A.   I saw three open fire.

 7        Q.   Do you recall the kinds of shots they fired?

 8        A.   They were opening bursts of fire at these people.  I don't know

 9     what kind of bullets they are.  They would know that.  I didn't look to

10     see the kind of bullets that they were using.

11        Q.   What happened to the victims after the shooting?

12        A.   They remained in the water, and these other guys returned back to

13     the cars, and then two of them turned around later and then they fired

14     one or two bullets at the people in the water; and then they left, they

15     went towards the cars on the road from where they came.

16        Q.   Did you personally observe that second shooting with the naked

17     eye or with the binoculars?

18        A.   I was looking with the naked eye.  I personally saw what was

19     done, as it was being done.

20        Q.   Do you recall when they went back to the cars which direction the

21     cars drove off in?

22        A.   They turned around on the road, and they went towards Visegrad.

23        Q.   After they drove off, did you have an opportunity to look back at

24     the victims?

25        A.   Yes.  Walking for a couple of minutes or so, we reached an area

Page 432

 1     where we could see better, and then after four or five minutes, two

 2     people stood up from the water and then we were shouting how someone had

 3     survived the execution.  They went along the right side of the river

 4     Drina towards the Usce and then they came to some logs; and they took a

 5     log that was about two to two and a half metres long and that was maybe

 6     about 20 centimetres thick and they used that to swim across the Drina,

 7     and then they walked or set off towards Donja Brstanica.

 8        Q.   Did you personally see what you've just described?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.

10             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours I'd like to go into private session

11     just for the next two questions.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

13         [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber] 

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in private session.

15             MS. MARCUS:

16        Q.   Did you personally speak with either of the two survivors?

17        A.   No, I didn't, but my colleague spoke with them for some four to

18     five minutes when they came out on the other side.  I was there, though.

19     They went to look for their family and this colleague of mine knew one of

20     those people, (redacted) and he had left his wife and children somewhere

21     in town so he went off to look for them and that's where we separated and

22     we didn't see each other any more.

23        Q.   Do you recall what this person said, this person whom you've just

24     named?

25        A.   I don't know.  Are you talking about my brother-in-law or this

Page 433

 1   (redacted)

 2        Q.   Yes, I'm sorry, this (redacted)

 3        A.   Yes.  No.  He just said, "I am going home up at Hamzici."  That's

 4     where he lived.  I didn't know who he was.  And my brother-in-law said,

 5     "I know this person.  He's from Hamzici."  And then there was this other

 6     guy who was a dental technician, I don't know his name.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm not clear there.  Who said, "I'm going home,

 8     up at Hamzici"?  Who said that.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] (redacted)

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Did he say that to you.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He -- I was there when this

12     colleague of mine asked him that.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see.  Okay.  Thanks.

14             MS. MARCUS:

15        Q.   Just one more point of clarification on that.  This person you

16     refer to as your colleague, is that the same as you refer to as your

17     brother-in-law?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did you speak to (redacted) any more at the time?

20        A.   No, no, nothing.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours we can go back into open session.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Open session.

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

25             MS. MARCUS:

Page 434

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness, were either you or your brother-in-law armed on that

 2     day?

 3        A.   No, we weren't.

 4        Q.   To your knowledge, was there any combat activity of any kind in

 5     the vicinity on that day?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   To your knowledge, apart from the execution which you witnessed,

 8     was there any other shooting in the vicinity on that day?

 9        A.   No, there wasn't.

10        Q.   After you spoke with the survivors, did you ever return to your

11     observation post to look back across the river at the execution site?

12        A.   Yes.  We went back two days later.  The corpses were in the water

13     where they had been shot.  After two days, probably the water level was

14     raised from the power station at Visegrad, so probably the corpses were

15     carried away by the water.

16        Q.   So how many days would you estimate that the bodies were lying

17     there?

18        A.   About four days, in our estimate.

19        Q.   Is that the only time that you saw bodies along the Drina?

20        A.   No.  I saw another corpse, that of Nadaski [phoen] and a small

21     child.  We saw the bodies of a woman and a child, on some kind of board,

22     and they were dead, and they were going down the river; but we couldn't

23     get close so that we would be able to pull them out and get them out of

24     the water.

25             MS. MARCUS:  No further questions, Your Honours.

Page 435

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic, will you be cross-examining this

 3     witness?

 4             MR. CEPIC:  No, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Will you be cross-examining this witness, Mr. --

 6             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Okay.  Proceed.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

 9        Q.   Mr. 79, you indicated that you were present with your

10     brother-in-law at the time?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And he's dead now?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And what were the circumstances of his death?

15        A.   He was killed by a shell that dropped in Medja.

16        Q.   When was this?

17        A.   In 1992, in October or November.  I don't remember the exact

18     month.

19        Q.   And so you had an opportunity to cooperate with the Office of the

20     Prosecution in around 2001?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And when were you first approached by investigators related to

23     these cases?

24        A.   Sometime in 2001, maybe January or February.

25        Q.   And isn't it true you gave a statement the 19th of January 1991

Page 436

 1     [sic]?

 2        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

 3        Q.   Where was that statement given?

 4        A.   Sarajevo.

 5        Q.   And you gave the statement under oath to the best of your

 6     recollection?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   And it documents in its entirety what you witnessed at the bank

 9     of the Drina River from your vantage point?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And I'm sorry, I misspoke.  Was the statement given 19th of

12     January 2001?  The transcript read 1991.

13        A.   2001.

14        Q.   And then you testified in the Vasiljevic case in approximately

15     September, mid-September, 2001?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Was your memory better at the beginning of 2001?

18             MR. GROOME:  I believe there is a mike open on the Bench.  I

19     don't think you intended to have that conversation.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I went just like I did the

21     other time, and I gave a statement.

22             MR. ALARID:

23        Q.   Isn't it true that in your statement of January 2001, you

24     indicated that you were arrested on April 17th, 1992, by the Uzice Corps?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 437

 1        Q.   And you were interrogated, and your home was violated and

 2     searched?

 3        A.   When I returned from the SUP, I met a soldier from the Uzice

 4     Corps, and he searched my apartment, the house where I lived, to check

 5     for weapons.  He didn't find anything.  He sat down for a while.  And

 6     then he left.

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17         [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber] 

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 438

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18        A.   Yes, last day.

19        Q.   And the reason you stopped working is because you received a

20     phone call that three men had come to your home looking for you, correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   These three men were wearing hoods, correct?

23        A.   Yes.  Some kind of hood.  I don't know.  The wife didn't know

24     anyone of them, but in any case they asked for me personally.

25        Q.   And so the recollection of the three men coming to your home was

Page 439

 1     through your wife?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And she indicated that they arrived in a red Passat that had

 4     originally belonged to Behija Zukic, correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And so you stated in your statement that you believed that one of

 7     those men must have been Milan Lukic?

 8        A.   It's possible, because he said that he drove it.  I -- it's

 9     possible.  I mean, I didn't know Milan Lukic before.

10        Q.   You indicated he said he drove it.  Who is "he"?

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We are still in private session, let us move to

12     public session.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milan Lukic.

14                           [Open session]

15             MR. ALARID:

16        Q.   Milan Lukic he told you he drove a red Passat?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody told him, when he killed

19     Behija Zukic and her husband and her son, he took the car.  So there was

20     talk that Lukic was driving around in that car.  I didn't know Lukic.  My

21     wife didn't know him either.  But there was talk that he had killed this

22     woman, the children and the husband, and that he took the red Passat and

23     that he was driving it around.  This is the story that was going around.

24     This is what my wife told me, that it was possible that it was him in the

25     red Passat.

Page 440

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see, yes.

14             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.

15             MR. ALARID:

16        Q.   And so would it be fair to say that this story about who killed

17     Behija Zukic was accepted as true amongst the Muslim community?

18        A.   They probably did accept that.  I don't know if anybody saw him

19     killing them or who knows what, but I mean, it's something that was being

20     talked about.

21        Q.   And so when your wife told you the three men arrived in

22     Ms. Zukic's Passat, instantly the name of Milan Lukic was associated with

23     that?

24        A.   Probably it was associated with it.  Everybody was saying that he

25     was driving this Passat around.

Page 441

 1        Q.   Now, on the 3rd of June 1992, the Passat returned to your home,

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   And you again received the information through your wife that it

 5     was the same three men wearing hoods obscuring their faces?

 6        A.   Yes.  One of them was Mitar Vasiljevic in a hat, in a Volkswagen

 7     belonging to Himzo Demir, and there was a woman there with long blond

 8     hair, and they went towards another house opposite from my house and then

 9     my wife said, "Well, they are coming out, they are coming.  Run and

10     hide."  So I went and I hid.

11        Q.   Are you certain that you're not confusing the identification of

12     Mitar Vasiljevic and the blond lady with a day different from June 3rd,

13     1992?

14        A.   Yes, yes, yes.  I don't think I'm confusing anything.  That's

15     more or less it, that they were there and that they left, that they took

16     away one person from Gorazde who was turned back from the border at

17     Vardiste and he had a friend there in the neighbourhood; they took that

18     man to Banja and then they brought them back to the house, and they took

19     their Lada away, who took it away, I don't know; but in any case, they

20     brought the man back, and he's still alive to this day.

21        Q.   And it would be fair to say, though, that that did not happen on

22     the day of the 3rd?

23        A.   I think that it was around that time, during those days, more or

24     less.

25        Q.   Isn't it true that in your statement of -- that you indicated

Page 442

 1     that you saw Mitar Vasiljevic with the woman with the long blond hair in

 2     Mr. Demir's car in May of 1992?

 3        A.   I didn't see Himzo Demir, only his car, and when there were two

 4     things hanging from the side -- from the mirror, from the rear view

 5     mirror.  Only my wife said something about that.

 6        Q.   No.  What's more important to me is when you saw Mitar Vasiljevic

 7     in the -- Mr. Demir's car, and isn't it true that was May 1992, according

 8     to your statement?

 9        A.   Yeah, this was in late May, early June, around that time.  I

10     cannot remember the precise dates.  A person cannot remember everything.

11     So much time has passed since then.

12        Q.   Do you consider that Mitar Vasiljevic killed Mr. Demir simply

13     because he was driving in her car -- his car?

14        A.   I don't know what happened to him.

15        Q.   So the only reason Milan Lukic was implicated in this Passat is

16     because people were talking about it?

17        A.   Well, yes.  There were stories going around that he was driving

18     it and no one else.  I mean, I don't know what to say.  I didn't know

19     Milan before, and I don't know him now.

20        Q.   Nor did you speak with a direct witness to the crime involving

21     the Passat and Ms. Zukic?

22        A.   No, I didn't.

23        Q.   But you did know this Passat, did you not?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   How long had you seen it around town?

Page 443

 1        A.   Before the war, we knew where this woman worked, where she went

 2     in her car, everybody said how good a car she had.  This was -- these

 3     were the stories before the war.  Later, when they said that Lukic had

 4     done that, killed her and seized the Passat, I don't know what became of

 5     the Passat after that.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, we are going to take a break now.

 7     How much longer do you plan to be?  You don't have to utilise the hour

 8     that I gave you.  It's a maximum.

 9             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour.  Actually, I don't think -- can

10     the Court tell me how many -- how much time I've had?

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The deputy?

12             THE REGISTRAR:  30 minutes, Your Honours -- [microphone not

13     activated]

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I didn't hear.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Nine minutes, Your Honours.

16             MR. ALARID:  Nine?  Oh, 30.  I don't belive I'll take the full

17     hour, to be honest.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We will adjourn.

19                           --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

22             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Mr. 79, isn't it true that you drew a sketch, if you will, when

24     you gave your statement back in January of 199 -- or excuse me, 2001?

25        A.   Yes, it is.

Page 444

 1        Q.   And it demonstrated how the gentlemen that had exited the cars

 2     had crossed the field to the river Drina?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Can we please have the court usher put on the screen ERN number

 5     01099516?

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Marcus.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Could I just request that that not be broadcast

 8     outside because it has the witness's signature on it?

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's to be done.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Could the counsel please repeat the number?

11             MR. ALARID:  01099516.

12             For the Court usher's benefit it may be attached to the

13     statements that is otherwise marked as 2D00-0090, which is the English

14     version and 2D00-0084, which is the B/C/S translation or statement.

15             MS. MARCUS:  If I can assist, it's Prosecution -- oh, you have it

16     up there, I'm sorry.

17             MR. ALARID:

18        Q.   Mr. 79, can you see that drawing?

19        A.   Yes, I can.

20        Q.   At this time, Your Honour, I would tender as exhibits, both

21     2D00-0084 and 2D00-0090 for Milan Lukic.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we admit it.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours this will become Exhibit 1D2.

24             MR. ALARID:

25        Q.   Now, Mr. 79, in your original statement, you indicated that the

Page 445

 1     victims walked across the field towards the Drina side by side in a line,

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Yes, side by side, in a line.

 4        Q.   And just today, you indicated that they were in single file.

 5        A.   I may have made a mistake, but I stand by what I wrote.

 6        Q.   So for anyone looking across the river, either with binoculars or

 7     without binoculars, it was unmistakable that they were in a line across

 8     the field?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.  But it is a great distance.  It was a great distance,

10     after all.  There was a column, they were walking side by side towards

11     the river, and when they reached the bank, they were separated from one

12     another.  But they descended in a group, one after another, or two -- in

13     twos and threes, but this is what I drew is when they had already reached

14     the bank and as they were -- when they were separated and when they were

15     already stepping into the water.

16        Q.   Now, in your original statement, you time and time again

17     indicated that there were only ten men, seven being the victims and three

18     being the assailants, correct?

19        A.   Yes.  And there was another, a fourth person, in respect of whom

20     I wasn't sure who or what that person was, but I am certain that there

21     were ten persons there.

22        Q.   And that fourth person was a member of the assailing party?

23        A.   Probably.  The survivors know that and they will be able to prove

24     that in this Court.

25        Q.   Well, isn't it true that that fourth person ended up being

Page 446

 1     identified as Mitar Vasiljevic?

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, how this witness knows who the fourth

 3     person, he's saying there is three people there.  He's saying he has no

 4     knowledge about the fourth person.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Next question, Mr. Alarid?

 6             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   And isn't it true that in your original statement, you said you

 8     had the binoculars with you?

 9        A.   My colleague had the binoculars and then he gave it to me so that

10     I could also take a look, but he used it for a longer time than I did;

11     and I only took a short look because I could not bear to look at what was

12     happening.

13        Q.   Well, during the time that you had the binoculars you were able

14     to identify two of the victims as people you knew, namely Amir Kurtalic

15     and Meho Dzafic, correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   And that was through the assistance of binoculars?

18        A.   Yes.  With the aid of binoculars, I actually took it to see

19     whether it was precisely them, and after I had ascertained that I gave

20     them back to my colleague because I didn't have the courage to look on

21     any more.

22        Q.   And through those binoculars, you were also able to identify

23     the -- what the people were wearing, correct?

24        A.   No.  I was not.  They were in some house wear, slippers, actually

25     I didn't pay any attention to what they were wearing.

Page 447

 1        Q.   Well, isn't it true that you identified the three men as being

 2     dressed in black uniforms, in the original statement?

 3        A.   Yes.  They were black or bluish.  It was a distance.  One

 4     couldn't distinguish between the colours, but they were some sort of

 5     uniforms of theirs.

 6        Q.   Isn't it true that you indicated that they had black scarves with

 7     skulls printed on it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And so there was no mistaking the black scarves with skulls in

10     the binoculars?

11        A.   Yeah, yes.

12        Q.   Now, in your statement of January 2001, you indicated that the

13     originally the men had drove up in two cars, one being a Yugo and one

14     being a Peglica?

15        A.   Yeah, Yugo, I call a Yugo a Peglica, how shall I put it?  The

16     other one could not be seen.  It was parked behind the hedge behind the

17     bushes, how shall I explain?

18        Q.   Do you know what a Peglica is?

19        A.   Well, yes, Yugo and Peglica it is one and the same car or these

20     are similar cars.  I wasn't actually paying real attention to see

21     precisely what kind of a car it was.  That is what I said in my

22     statement, in fact, also.

23        Q.   Well, isn't it true that even in your testimony before the

24     Tribunal on September 12th, 2001, you again referred to the vehicle as a

25     Peglica?

Page 448

 1        A.   Yes.  I did refer to it as a Peglica because Peglica is for both

 2     driving people and ironing out people, because Peglica is an iron.

 3        Q.   And in fact your direct answer before the Tribunal was, "There

 4     was a little Peglica car, mauve, and also a Yugo, olive green, something

 5     like that."

 6        A.   Yes.  I was referring to this other car which was parked opposite

 7     that spot.  It was also white and parked behind the woods, but actually

 8     it was a car that was damaged and out of order, and it was parked there.

 9     I only saw it two days later when I came to that place.

10        Q.   So you're saying there was also -- that the Peglica was also a

11     white car?

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, Ms. Marcus?  A point?

13             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, learned counsel has read only up to halfway

14     through that sentence in the testimony, that's not the end of the isn't.

15     This prior testimony page 323, lines 5 through 7, it says, "There was a

16     little Peglica car, mauve and also a Yugo, olive green, something like

17     that because we did not really pay attention to the cars we were looking

18     at these people."

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, thank you, Ms. Marcus.

20             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I just assumed because the statements

21     were admitted under 92, that the Court would of course have the benefit

22     of the entire statement.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes but she is saying -- what she is saying is

24     you should put this into its entire context to be fair.

25             MR. ALARID:

Page 449

 1        Q.   So, regardless, you definitely paid attention to the colour of

 2     the uniforms?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   Isn't it true the first time you've ever mentioned the colour

 5     blue with relation to these uniforms is today in court in 2008?

 6        A.   Yes, it is either black or blue or bluish, that uniform, because

 7     from that distance, I couldn't really see, and then my colleague watched

 8     for a longer time.  As I've said, these were their uniforms which were

 9     either black or bluish.

10             MR. ALARID:  Could the Court please place on to the witness's

11     screen 65 ter number 164, without markings?  It was otherwise marked as

12     Exhibit P3 for the Prosecution.

13        Q.   Sir, do you recognise this photograph on the screen before you?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   Where is this?

16        A.   It is from the cooperative in Sase and up to the place where the

17     crime happened.

18        Q.   And would it be fair to say that the willows against the bank

19     have overgrown in this photo compared to 1992?

20        A.   Yes.  That is so.  They were not as tall at that time, and it is

21     only normal that all this growth should have developed in the meantime.

22        Q.   And could the court usher instruct the witness on how to use the

23     marking pen?

24        A.   This here is Sase.  This is the cooperative.  [Marks].  This is

25     the road to Visegradska Banja.  This is the road by the Drina which goes

Page 450

 1     all the way to Prelovo.

 2        Q.   And put approximate location the cars had parked?

 3        A.   The cars were parked -- this is the road, this is the house, was

 4     somewhere around this place here, down this field.  [Marks].  On the

 5     road, behind the woods there, that is where they were parked.

 6        Q.   Could you put a P where the mauve car was, and could you put a Y

 7     where the Yugo was?

 8        A.   [Marks].  The car was somewhere around this spot.

 9        Q.   Is that --

10        A.   And the other ones, these others were parked somewhere here.

11        Q.   And for reference, can you put a letter Y by the Yugo, and a

12     letter P by the mauve car?

13        A.   [Marks].  This is it.

14             MR. ALARID:  We would ask that this be marked as a Defence

15     Exhibit and entered into evidence.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm unable to discern the difference in the

17     cars, the markings, the P and the Y.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks] Y and P.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Okay.  That's fine now.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will become Exhibit 1D3.

21             MR. ALARID:

22        Q.   Now, again through your binoculars you were able to identify Amir

23     and Meho, correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And isn't it true that in your original statement you indicated

Page 451

 1     that the men, the victims, were -- entered the water up to knee high?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And so they were not on the sandy bank?

 4        A.   They walked into the silt and the water had covered the silt, and

 5     they had walked into this silt in the water.

 6        Q.   Until they were covered up to their knees?

 7        A.   They came to the bank, and they forced them to walk into the

 8     water, and they were -- remained behind them.  They were facing the river

 9     and their backs were to the men.

10        Q.   And through your binoculars, you were able to see smoke coming

11     out of three of the machine-guns, correct?

12        A.   Well, when you fire the shots, it's very difficult to see smoke

13     from a distance of 500 to 600 metres.  It's difficult to see smoke.  But

14     naturally you can hear the actual gun shots.

15        Q.   And isn't it true that in your original statement you indicated

16     that the assailants had all shot in a burst of fire and not in single

17     shots?

18        A.   Yes, there were bursts of fire and then when they were finished,

19     in a few seconds, then they turned to go towards the cars, then two

20     turned back and fired one or two single shots and then they left in their

21     cars; and they turned the cars around and left towards Visegrad.

22        Q.   And by bursts of fire, you mean automatic weapon fire, correct?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   And that is unmistakable compared to single shots, correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 452

 1        Q.   Now, one of the most interesting things is that at the beginning

 2     of your statements you indicate you witnessed this at 11 a.m. in the

 3     morning, correct?

 4        A.   Not in the morning.  It was in the afternoon sometime.

 5             MR. ALARID:  Can we please again place D2 in B/C/S for the

 6     witness to refresh his recollection?  1D2, I'm sorry.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, don't be under any misapprehension.

 8     For this witness I will not allow you even a minute longer than the time

 9     allotted.  The first witness was in a different category.

10             Yes?

11             MS. MARCUS:  Sorry, I just want to be sure we are not

12     broadcasting the -- thank you.

13             MR. ALARID:  And could we go to the actual statement itself and

14     in the English version the time I'm referencing is in paragraph 6 -- 7.

15        Q.   Sir, have you read the first sentence of paragraph 7 of your

16     Serbian statement or language -- Serbian-language statement?

17        A.   I don't see where I'm supposed to be reading from.  I probably

18     read it before.  Whatever I said before and now I stand by that.

19        Q.   It's the last paragraph on the page, the paragraph at the bottom

20     of the page.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Are you referring to the line --

22             MR. ALARID:  The first line of paragraph 7, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  "While we were in Jelacici around the 6th or 7th

24     June 1992, at about 1100 hours, a.m."  Do you see that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At around 11.00, I went and I

Page 453

 1     looked at my house in order to go and get my mother, and this happened in

 2     the afternoon hours.  This is a mistake when this was being typed.  At

 3     11.00 I had left Jelacici.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He says it's a mistake.  That's the explanation

 5     he has given.

 6             MR. ALARID:

 7        Q.   You had read this statement before you had signed it?

 8        A.   Most probably, but I didn't quite get this 11.00 part.  I didn't

 9     understand that but I would say it's a mistake.  Yes, I did leave

10     Jelacici at 11.00 and I was watching the Drina and so on, and when I

11     returned from Hamzici I was looking at what was happened or what was

12     happening at -- in the afternoon, sometime in the afternoon.

13        Q.   Isn't it true that in your statement, you indicated that you

14     talked to the two surviving witnesses or victims of this incident about

15     four or five days after the incident?

16        A.   The first time when they came out of the water, I talked with

17     them, and then after four or five days, we looked for them; we wanted to

18     find them to see how they were feeling, because then they left following

19     their own fate, looking for their family.

20        Q.   And you told them you saw the whole thing?

21        A.   Didn't understand what you said.

22        Q.   You told them you saw the entire incident?

23        A.   Yes, yes.  I was there with my colleague who was asking them that

24     first time, as soon as they came out of the water, and then we went our

25     separate ways and we told them that we had seen the whole event, what was

Page 454

 1     happening.

 2        Q.   Can you tell the difference between automatic gunfire and single

 3     gunfire?

 4        A.   Yes, I do -- I can.

 5        Q.   And you heard automatic gunfire from across the river?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. ALARID:  Now Your Honour, I would like to show the witness a

 8     couple of photographs.  We've provided them in black and white, but they

 9     are in colour for the ELMO.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

11             Mr. -- we are wondering where you're going with this line of

12     questioning.  I'd asked you before whether you are disputing that the

13     event took place and you were saying -- you said no, you are disputing

14     the manner in which the Prosecution's alleging that it took place.

15             MR. ALARID:  Yes, sir.  Not just the manner but the circumstances

16     including the identification of the individuals, the vehicles, the manner

17     in which they walked, approached the water, and the number of individuals

18     present.  Since considering the fact that the witness and multiple

19     occasions has used the term Peglica to describe the vehicle that

20     approached and the men got out of, I'm -- I believe I'm showing the Court

21     and the witness a photograph of a similar vehicle.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And how will that impact on the question of

23     guilt or innocence?

24             MR. ALARID:  Well, to a certain degree, it seems like the

25     witnesses have the common bond to describe a red Passat as associating

Page 455

 1     with Mr. Milan Lukic.  However, if the red Passat was not even involved

 2     period in this incident then that brings into further question the

 3     veracity or credibility of the witnesses.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Your time will be up at half past, then.

 5             MR. ALARID:

 6        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the type of vehicle that is in the car --

 7     or in the photo, I mean?

 8        A.   This, the Peglica, or the Yugo?  For me it's the same thing.  I

 9     refer to as a Peglica.

10        Q.   Well, the -- the white car behind it, is in fact a Yugo, isn't

11     it?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And the car in front is a small Polish car that's considered or

14     at least known as a Peglica?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And otherwise would it be fair to say that you just lumped them

17     together because they are both very small cars?

18        A.   Because they are small cars and they were far away, and you

19     couldn't see everything, and I didn't look through the binoculars myself.

20     My colleague was looking through them.  He hadn't -- he is not among the

21     living.  If he were he could have told you about it.  So these

22     photographs are not from the place where the incident happened.  This is

23     from around town.  This is not how it was then.  This is something that

24     was taken around town, and you have lots of such examples there, from

25     where you took the photographs.

Page 456

 1        Q.   Simply, though, sir, would it be fair to say that this is an

 2     accurate depiction of a red Peglica and a white Yugo?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.  Now it's clear because I have it very clearly in front

 4     of me, and I can see clearly what's what.

 5        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Can you please put the second photograph on the

 6     ELMO for the witness, please?

 7             Do you recognise this type of car?

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear what the witness

 9     said.  Could he please repeat his answer.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Could you please repeat your answer?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I recognise it.  It's a

12     Passat, yes.

13             MR. ALARID:

14        Q.   And would it be fair to say that Ms. Zukic had the only red

15     Passat in Visegrad?

16        A.   It wasn't as red like that.  It was more of a Burgundy.  It

17     wasn't like this, not this red.  I don't know where this photograph comes

18     from, but if you were going to use a photograph, you should have made a

19     photograph of a Passat in that colour that we were talking about.  This

20     is not that colour.

21        Q.   I'm showing you a third photograph.  Is this closer to the

22     colour?

23        A.   Yes, the colour is more like it.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome?

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I don't mean to intrude on the court's

Page 457

 1     domain, but I think the record here if we look back at this record when

 2     we return after the break, we won't know which photograph is being shown.

 3     Can it be marked for identification somehow?  It may be important to show

 4     these to other witnesses.  Right now all the record shows is that this

 5     photograph is being put on the ELMO with no other identification.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, let us be told what is it that you

 7     intend to do with these photographs.  Are you seeking to have them

 8     admitted?

 9             MR. ALARID:  Yes, sir, Your Honour.  I think it would be just

10     easiest to benefit the court, the record so you could review at a later

11     date or through other witnesses that we just mark them in the order that

12     they were presented to the witness to avoid confusion, and we enter them

13     as Defence exhibits.  We just couldn't get them into the electronic

14     discovery this morning.  We were trying.

15                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  I asked the court deputy to give them

17     exhibit numbers, and she will do that later.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, they will become 1D4 and 1D5

19     respectively.

20             MR. GROOME:  If I might raise an objection to this.  We only

21     received them minutes ago, so we didn't receive them when we should have

22     at the beginning of the cross-examination.  But I also must wonder, if

23     again thinking about 90(H)(ii) if it's the Defence case that there is a

24     mistake about the Passat, why wasn't this photograph shown to VG-014 when

25     he was here?  He's the man who was in the car, not someone who was 500 to

Page 458

 1     600 metres looking with the naked eye across the river.  So I'm just

 2     querying why wasn't this photograph, if it's -- if it's important to the

 3     case, not put to VG-014?

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's a point for you to make in your

 5     submissions later.

 6             MR. ALARID:  And the only thing I would take exception to with

 7     that, Your Honour is simply that I believe in his statement, the witness

 8     79 has been more than clear that he looked through the binoculars so the

 9     reference to naked eye I think is somewhat misleading to the record.  And

10     at this time, Your Honour, I would tender the exhibits, and I have no

11     further questions of this witness.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Now, Ms. Marcus, any re-examination?

13             MS. MARCUS:  Just one question, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

15                           Re-examination by Ms. Marcus:

16        Q.   Mr. Witness, if several people were firing at the same time, is

17     it possible that that gunfire could sound like automatic gunfire?

18             MR. ALARID:  Objection, calls for speculation.

19             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours -- I --

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I uphold the objection.

21             MS. MARCUS:  No further questions.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

23             Witness, that concludes your evidence, Witness.  We thank you for

24     giving it.  You may now leave.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 459

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, I believe that will conclude our

 3     work for this session.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, there are no more witnesses.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We are going to resume on Wednesday, the 20th of

 6     August at 9.00 a.m.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Could I address the Chamber on a few matters

 8     including the schedule?

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

10             MR. GROOME:  First the stills that were taken today of

11     Mr. Milan Lukic's left and right face I'd ask that they now be formerly

12     tendered, the ERN number of the left profile is 0635-9003.  And the

13     profile -- his right profile is 0635-9004.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, please give them exhibit numbers.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, they will become P9 and P10

16     respectively.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  M'hm.

18             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, it would also be helpful to the

19     Prosecution in scheduling witnesses if the Chamber could guide us on

20     the -- is there a formula that the Chamber will use to calculate the

21     amount of time for cross-examination for 92 ter witnesses that will

22     better help us better able to schedule the witnesses if we could

23     calculate that.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We will inform you of that.

25             MR. GROOME:  Okay.  The third thing is it's been my practice in

Page 460

 1     other cases on the pseudonym sheet also include locations and other

 2     identifying information such as the workplace.  So the pseudonym sheet

 3     would make, include home village with the name of the home village or

 4     workplace with the name of the workplace.  If that practice is suitable

 5     to the Chamber, I will institute it in this case, and it would require us

 6     going into private session less frequently.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  For my part, I believe the pseudonym sheet as

 8     presented today is adequate.  I don't know that we need additional

 9     information, but I'll consult.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We prefer to have it as lean as possible.

12             MR. GROOME:  Okay.  And Your Honour with respect to the schedule

13     matter could I ask that we go into private session.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, private session.

15                           [Private session]

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11  Pages 461-462 redacted. Private session.















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21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.41 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of August,

23                           2008.