Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 869

 1                           Monday, 1 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, you're back.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm happy to see you.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And who is your next witness?

10             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the next witness formerly had

11     protective measures and the Prosecution is at this time going to move to

12     amend those protective measures based upon the wishes of the witness, so

13     if I might introduce Steven Cole to the Chamber.  He will be handling

14     this witness and will deal with that matter.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole.

16             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.  This witness, as has

17     been indicated, was granted protective measures in the Vasiljevic trial.

18     The witness is prepared during these proceedings to testify openly and I

19     would ask that the protective measures previously in place be revoked so

20     that he can testify in open session.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  We have no difficulty with that.

22             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour, sir.  The witness is

23     Mr. Huso Kurspahic, and I ask that he called to testify.  He's a 92 ter

24     witness.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Before you bring the witness in,

Page 870

 1     let me just without to give a decision on some 92 ter applications.

 2             On the 15th of February of this year, the Prosecution filed a

 3     motion requesting that the trial testimony and witness statements of

 4     several witnesses be admitted into evidence under Rule 92 ter.  On the

 5     8th of August, the Prosecution filed a supplemental motion pursuant to

 6     the same Rule in which it requested leave to add several witness

 7     statements to its existing 92 ter witness material.

 8             The Defence of Sredoje Lukic responded to the Prosecution's

 9     motion on the 28th of February.  Defence of Milan Lukic responded on the

10     28th of March.  Neither Defence responded to the 8th of August motion.

11             On Monday, the 25th of August, the Trial Chamber issued an oral

12     decision in respect of both motions insofar as they related to the

13     following witnesses:  VG-022, VG-011, VG-097, VG-104, and VG-061.

14             The Chamber remained seized of the motions in relation to the

15     remaining seven witnesses, namely VG-003, VG-018, VG-025, VG-038, VG-071,

16     VG-078, and VG-084.

17             The Chamber has reviewed the evidence submitted in the two

18     motions with regard to the seven witnesses under consideration.  It finds

19     that the transcripts, the statements, and associated exhibits are

20     admissible under Rule 92 ter once the requirements of that Rule are met,

21     and that disposes of both motions.

22             Let the witness be brought in.

23             Mr. Cole, how long do you intend to spend on this witness?

24             MR. COLE:  I'm hoping, sir, that approximately half an hour, the

25     allowable time.

Page 871

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3                           WITNESS:  HUSO KURSPAHIC

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may sit.  And you may begin, Mr. Cole.

 9             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           Examination by Mr. Cole:

11        Q.   Yes.  Good afternoon, Mr. Kurspahic.  Can you hear clearly?

12        A.   Good afternoon.  Yes, I can hear you clearly.

13        Q.   Could you please state your name and your date of birth.

14        A.   My name is Huso Kurspahic.  I was born on the 11th of May, 1950,

15     in the village of Koritnik, Visegrad municipality, Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina.

17        Q.   And what is your ethnicity?

18        A.   I am a Bosniak.

19        Q.   During the spring of the year 1992, in which municipality did you

20     live?

21        A.   I lived in the municipality of Visegrad, and I worked in the area

22     of Visegrad and the local commune of Medjedja.

23             MR. COLE:  Your Honours, Mr. Kurspahic is a 92 ter witness, and

24     I'll now proceed to confirm his prior statement, his prior testimony and

25     the exhibits.

Page 872

 1        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, did you give a statement to an ICTY investigator

 2     on the 12th of May, 2000, and could I just ask you --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, could I ask that you don't refer to those

 5     documents in front you while I'm asking you these questions, please.

 6        A.   Yes, I understand.  I won't be doing that.

 7        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  And the statement that you gave was on the 12th

 8     of May, 2000?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And can you confirm that the statement was typed in English at

11     the time, it was then read back to you in Bosnian, and you signed the

12     English version?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And did you have an opportunity last week here at the Tribunal to

15     review that statement in the Bosnian language?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, was there one matter which you wished to correct in that

18     statement, namely the name of your nephew who perished in the fire at

19     Pionirska Street, Visegrad, on the 14th of June, 1992?

20        A.   Yes.  His name was Faruk, not Enver.  That was a mistake.

21        Q.   And the surname was Sehic?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, with that correction, do you confirm that the statement you

24     made on the 12th of May, 2000, is true and accurate to the best of your

25     knowledge?

Page 873

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   If I were to ask you the same questions today would your answers

 3     be the same?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. COLE:  Your Honours, at this point I tender the statement of

 6     Mr. Kurspahic into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.  It is the statement

 7     dated 12 May 2000, and the 65 ter number is 169.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we admit it.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P36, Your Honours.

10             MR. COLE:

11        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, do you confirm that you testified over two days

12     during the Mitar Vasiljevic trial in 2001, those days being 19 September

13     and 24 September 2001?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Did you have an opportunity last week to listen to the audio

16     recordings of your testimony in the Mitar Vasiljevic trial?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Was that testimony true and accurate to the best of your

19     knowledge?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you need to make any corrections to it?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   If you were asked the same questions today would your answers be

24     the same?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 874

 1             MR. COLE:  Your Honours, at this point I tender the transcripts

 2     of the witness's testimony into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.  The

 3     transcript from 19 September 2001, 65 ter number 122; the transcript from

 4     24 September 2001, 65 ter number 123.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 122 will become

 7     Exhibit number P37.  65 ter number 123 will become Exhibit P38.

 8             MR. COLE:  Thank you.  At this point also, Your Honours, I would

 9     ask that an exhibit which accompanied the witness's testimony and was

10     produced as an exhibit in the Vasiljevic trial be tendered into evidence

11     in this trial pursuant to Rule 92 ter.  This is a list of 51 names of

12     victims of the Pionirska Street fire and the 65 ter number is 170.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 170 will become Exhibit number P39,

15     Your Honours.

16             MR. COLE:  And Your Honours I will deal with a correction to that

17     list of names at this stage and could I ask that the list of 51 names,

18     Exhibit P39, please be shown to Mr. Kurspahic.

19        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, can you see the list of 51 names on the screen

20     before you?

21        A.   Yes, I can.

22        Q.   Would you look at number 37 on the list.  Is that the name Hasib

23     Kurspahic?

24        A.   That's my father, yes.

25        Q.   And can you confirm that in fact your father Hasib Kurspahic

Page 875

 1     survived the Pionirska fire?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   For some time after the Pionirska fire did you believe that in

 4     fact your father had died during that fire together with your mother,

 5     your two sisters, your nephew, and many other relatives?

 6        A.   I believed that because it was impossible for him to escape the

 7     fire on his own because at the time he was 70 years of age, he was a sick

 8     person, and that is why I believed that.

 9        Q.   And did you subsequently find out that your father had in fact

10     survived that fire, and did you meet up with him again in early 1993?

11        A.   I learned this through ham operators that he had survived, that

12     he was in Visoko, the village of Mosce and I visited him in 1993 and that

13     was my first contact with him.

14        Q.   And, Mr. Kurspahic, last week were you able to view a videotape

15     of an interview with your father which took place in 1992 shortly after

16     the Pionirska fire?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And did you confirm that that videotape interview of your father

19     was produced into evidence during your testimony at the Vasiljevic trial

20     in 2001?

21        A.   Yes, but only about ten seconds.  There was just an image of my

22     father.  I was asked, "Is this your father?"  I said, "Yes," and then it

23     was finished.

24        Q.   Yes.

25             MR. COLE:  Your Honours, at this point I would ask that the

Page 876

 1     videotape interview of this witness's father in 1992 which accompanied

 2     the witness's testimony and was produced as an exhibit in the Vasiljevic

 3     trial be tendered into evidence in this trial pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

 4     The 65 ter number is 119.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  This will become Exhibit P40.

 6             MR. COLE:  And along with the actual videotape itself I would ask

 7     at this point that the transcript of the video interview of the witness's

 8     father in English and B/C/S be tendered into evidence also pursuant to

 9     Rule 92 ter.  The English transcript is 65 ter number 120, and the B/C/S

10     transcript of the videotape interview is 65 ter number 121.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 120 will become Exhibit P41.  65

13     ter number 121 will become Exhibit P42, Your Honours.

14             MR. COLE:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, can you confirm that it was your father whom you

16     could see and hear being interviewed on that videotape?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. COLE:  Now, Your Honours, I'm going to provide the witness

19     with some pseudonym sheets.  They are -- well, the pseudonym sheet, it is

20     not in respect of this witness but in respect of three persons who he may

21     refer to during his testimony so that he knows the pseudonym numbers to

22     refer to rather than the witness's name.  If I could provide the witness

23     with that, and a copy, of course, for the Defence and the Bench.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

25             MR. COLE:  Sir, I have the three pseudonyms on the one sheet.  Is

Page 877

 1     there any problem with it being dealt with that way?

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You have three on one sheet, and the three who

 3     are to be referred to are those three.

 4             MR. COLE:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well, yes.

 6             MR. COLE:  Thank you, sir.

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Kurspahic, I have given to you -- I have provided to you

 8     a pseudonym sheet, not for yourself but in the event you need to refer to

 9     the three persons listed therein, in which case I would ask you to use

10     the pseudonym numbers alongside the names rather than the names

11     themselves.

12        A.   Very well.  Thank you.

13        Q.   I'm going to just refer again to the list of 51 names that you

14     viewed a short time ago.  During the previous trial you made some

15     corrections to the surnames of three of the names on that list, and you

16     added three other names during your testimony in the Vasiljevic trial.

17     Isn't that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, apart from your father, have you ever seen or heard from any

20     of these persons on the corrected list since the 14th of June, 1992?

21        A.   Yes.  May I use this, because I have this list in front of me?

22        Q.   Could I just -- maybe I didn't make myself understood.  Could I

23     just ask you the question again.

24             Putting your father aside, his name is on the list currently,

25     have you seen or heard from any of those other persons on the list since

Page 878

 1     1992?

 2        A.   No.  I do apologise.  I didn't understand correctly.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And the list at present includes your mother, your

 4     two sisters, and your nephew?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   How many others on that list with the surname Kurspahic are

 7     related to you?

 8        A.   All of them.  We are all related.  Some of them are distant

 9     relatives, some are close relatives.  This is one family.

10        Q.   And through the inquiries that you have subsequently made, what

11     do you believe now to be the total or approximate total number of persons

12     who perished in the Pionirska fire on the 14th of June, 1992?

13        A.   There is no accurate number, but there would be about 70 people

14     who perished there.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in relation to the videotape interview of your

16     father, can you confirm that that depicts your father describing this

17     fatal fire and how he escaped from it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   What date was it that you met up with your father after the fire

20     in 1993?

21        A.   I think it was the 24th of January, 1993.  It was in Visoko.  I'm

22     not quite sure, but that's what it says.  Yes.  Yes.  23rd or 24th.  You

23     can read that from my statement, and I stand by what is written in my

24     statement.

25        Q.   And what date did your father say to you that the Pionirska fire

Page 879

 1     occurred?  On what day did it occur?

 2        A.   He didn't tell me the date.  This is what he said exactly:  On

 3     the fourth day of Bajram in Visegrad, and Bajram lasts and you celebrate

 4     it for four days, so that would be the 14th of June, 1992.

 5        Q.   And who did your father say were the main perpetrators who killed

 6     your family members during the fire?

 7        A.   My father told me that on that date this was done by Sredoje

 8     Lukic, Milan Lukic, Mitar Vasiljevic, and Bosko Djuric was seen nearby,

 9     then Zoran Joksimovic, a man with the last name Susnjar, Zoran

10     Joksimovic, and another individual with -- a blonde with white complexion

11     with long hair, and he was Milan Lukic's escort.  Nobody knows his exact

12     name.  There were a total of seven men who arrived in front of the house

13     on Pionirska Street.

14        Q.   And, Mr. Kurspahic, were you asked by your father to solemnly

15     swear to do something as his dying wish?

16        A.   Yes.  My first encounter with him, he started crying when he saw

17     me, and he said, "I leave it up to you to tell about what happened on

18     that day in Pionirska Street in Visegrad since I am sick and old and I

19     probably won't live long enough to see the freedom."  He left it to me,

20     and I gave him my word that I would do it.

21        Q.   Now, you were the -- the head of the police station in Medjedja

22     when you first heard of the Pionirska fire; is that correct?

23        A.   No.  I was the commander of the reserve police administration.  I

24     was not the chief.  I was the commander.

25        Q.   All right.  So who was the first person that told you about the

Page 880

 1     Pionirska fire?  And please use the pseudonym if the name is on the sheet

 2     in front of you.

 3        A.   The first time I heard about this event was from Witness VG-013.

 4        Q.   How long after the Pionirska fire did she tell you about it?

 5        A.   I couldn't be precise, but I think it was seven or eight days

 6     after the events.

 7        Q.   Yes.  And did VG-13 tell you that she was a survivor of the

 8     Pionirska fire like your father?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, at Medjedja did you also meet the survivor of another house

11     fire, the Bikavac fire, which also occurred in Visegrad in June of 1992?

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just, a minute.  Don't answer.  Mr. Cepic is on

14     his feet.  Yes.

15             MR. CEPIC:  I think all of these questions -- most of these

16     questions have the character of leading questions, Your Honour.  Thank

17     you.

18             MR. COLE:

19        Q.   Who was the --

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.

21             MR. COLE:  I'm sorry, sir.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm inclined to agree that they are a little bit

23     leading so you have to be careful about that.

24             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you, sir.

25        Q.   Now, at Medjedja did you meet the survivor of another house fire

Page 881

 1     in Bikavac, the Bikavac fire which occurred sometime in 1992?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Who was that person, and please refer to them by the pseudonym if

 4     the name is on the sheet in front of you.

 5        A.   That person is VG-114.  She came to Medjedja all bandaged up.

 6     She exuded a bad smell.  She had been badly burnt on her face and hands

 7     as well.  She told me there had been a fire in Visegrad in a street

 8     called Bikavac near Kopito in the house of Meho Alic, where around 72

 9     persons had perished in the fire.  She was the only survivor.  She was

10     hardly able to speak.  That statement, that first statement, was

11     videotaped, and I believe that this videotape is stored at the Tribunal.

12        Q.   Were you able to assess how long after the fire incident it was

13     that you spoke with her?

14        A.   I think again seven or eight days later.  Her body was an open

15     wound.  Everything, face, hands, body was covered with wounds that exuded

16     such a bad smell that you couldn't come practically any closer to her.

17        Q.   Who did she say were the persons responsible for causing these

18     injuries to her and the other people?

19        A.   She only mentioned Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and Mitar

20     Vasiljevic, saying that it was them who had set the house on fire.  They

21     were there.

22        Q.   Now, last week during your proofing you were shown copies of five

23     documents that had been provided to the Prosecution by the Milan Lukic

24     Defence.  Do you recall that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 882

 1        Q.   And these were documents of the style of Visegrad police

 2     documents --

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Stop.  Mr. Cepic.

 4             MR. CEPIC:  I haven't got any objections to those documents yet

 5     but I just object because I haven't got any announcement that the OTP

 6     will use those documents.  I haven't got -- received any information,

 7     supplemental information sheet or something similar.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole, is that so?  As you know, you're

 9     required to --

10             MR. COLE:  Yes, sir.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  -- provide timely notification.

12             MR. COLE:  I'm reasonably confident that we did send a

13     notification.  It's just one of those documents I'm going to be referring

14     the witness to.  I wonder if I could just check with the case manager,

15     sir.  I personally was looking after this and asked that a message be

16     sent.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, do so quickly.

18             MR. COLE:  Sir.  Yes.  It's been suggested, and can I put it this

19     way, sir, I'm able to proceed in the absence of that document by asking

20     questions around it.  Once we have found the confirmation that's been

21     supplied to the Defence, we can deal with it then, in fact, and on the

22     screen if there's no further objection.  So with your permission, sir,

23     I'll continue to ask questions about the document.  It may be that we can

24     deal with -- without producing it.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.

Page 883

 1             MR. COLE:

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Kurspahic, I'm going to ask you about just one of those

 3     documents that your shown last week.  It was a document that contained a

 4     list of 15 names of persons, and it purported to be the list of 15 police

 5     officers sent from Visegrad to Kopito on the 13th of June, 1992.  Do you

 6     recall that document?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Yes.  Now, as some background to these questions, were you a

 9     policeman at Visegrad and Medjedja for a number of years?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   From when until when were you a police officer there?

12        A.   Correct, the 1st of January, 1970, until I fled from Visegrad on

13     the 6th of April, 1992.  That was the last day I was in Visegrad, and I

14     was on active duty all that time.

15        Q.   Do you recall last week when you looked at the list of the 15

16     names that you saw the name Milan Lukic at number 4 on the list?

17        A.   Yes, I've seen that name and surname.

18        Q.   I'm going to ask you, was Milan Lukic a police officer in

19     Visegrad or anywhere else at any time, to the best your knowledge?

20             MR. ALARID:  Objection, lack of foundation.  The witness

21     testified that he left the police department in Visegrad the 2nd of

22     April -- or 6th of April.  This document post dates that date.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can you laid a foundation, Mr. Cole.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you permit --

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, don't answer.

Page 884

 1             MR. COLE:  Well, sir, the document, as I've indicated and as the

 2     witness has confirmed, has a list of 15 names.  Certainly the date is the

 3     13th of June, but as far as he is able to with his experience, he's quite

 4     entitled, with respect, to say that he knew or didn't know that a person

 5     who was named on the list was or wasn't a police officer.  Now, the fact

 6     that he was a police officer till the 6th of April doesn't exclude him

 7     from commenting on or answering the question that he's just been asked.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, are you able to answer that question

 9     whether from your own knowledge or from information that you've acquired?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am.  Until two days before when I

11     heard about it, I didn't know that he had ever been on the police force,

12     any police force.  It's very true, though, there was a court case in

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina against Zeljko Lalek, where the same question was

14     asked --

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Would you just tell us whether you know and how

16     you know it.  Just concentrate on that.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milan had never been on the police

18     force.

19             MR. COLE:

20        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  Mr. Kurspahic, at the time that you left the

21     police in April 1992 what was the total number of police officers, both

22     regular and reserve police officers, at that time?

23        A.   Well, on active duty there were 31 officers, and together with

24     the reserve policemen there were a total of 200 or 220 for the whole

25     municipality, because you have to take into account that there were six

Page 885

 1     reserve police administrations -- or, rather, police stations in addition

 2     to the police station in Visegrad.

 3        Q.   So just to clarify then, at the time that you left in April 1992,

 4     at that time had you ever heard any suggestion that Milan Lukic was a

 5     police officer in Visegrad?

 6        A.   I had never heard any such thing, and he wasn't a police officer.

 7     You have to understand, people, this was a small town in which I knew

 8     everyone.

 9        Q.   I'm now going to ask you about Mr. Sredoje Lukic, and was he a

10     colleague of yours in the police in Visegrad?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   How many years were you colleagues, a colleague of Sredoje Lukic?

13        A.   At least eight to ten years.  Ten years.

14        Q.   How many years is it since you last saw Mr. Sredoje Lukic?

15        A.   This is the first time I'm seeing Sredoje Lukic here in the

16     courtroom.

17        Q.   Can you see him here in the courtroom?

18        A.   Yes, I can.

19        Q.   Just one moment, please.  Just hold it there.

20             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, we do

21     not dispute that Mr. Kurspahic knows Sredoje Lukic, but this method of

22     identification in the courtroom is something we do dispute in general and

23     in principle, because in decisions in the Vasiljevic and Limaj cases this

24     particular method of evaluation -- of identification has already been

25     evaluated.  That is the basis for my objection.

Page 886

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  In a situation where the witness is saying that

 2     he knew him for ten years before, Mr. Cepic.

 3             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as I said, we do not

 4     challenge the fact that Mr. Kurspahic knows Sredoje Lukic.  I just object

 5     on principle to this form of identification in the courtroom, also in

 6     light of possible further situations like this.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.  Let us proceed.

 8             MR. COLE:

 9        Q.   Yes.  Mr. Kurspahic, you said earlier, "This is the first time

10     I'm seeing Sredoje Lukic here in the courtroom."  Do you remember saying

11     that a moment ago?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Where can you see him here in the courtroom, please?

14        A.   In the last row, the second person from the policeman.  The first

15     next to the coloured officer wearing headphones.

16        Q.   Yes.  Any other description?  Let's just make it clear the person

17     you're talking about.

18        A.   Well, there is Sredoje Lukic.  I'm looking at him, and he's

19     looking at me.  You can ask him if he knows me.  We are being confronted.

20     That's why I wanted to testify, so I can say these things in their faces

21     in public, that I wouldn't be saying anything behind anyone's back.  I

22     wanted to say all I know from A to Z.  That is Sredoje Lukic, my former

23     colleague.

24        Q.   And just to make it clear for the record, Mr. Kurspahic, was it

25     the man sitting down or the man standing up that you're referring to?

Page 887

 1        A.   The man who stood up, yes.

 2             MR. COLE:  The record could indicate that the accused Sredoje

 3     Lukic stood up at that stage.  Thank you, sir.

 4        Q.   And just a couple more questions, Mr. Kurspahic.  Do you have a

 5     brother called -- did you have a brother called Osman Kurspahic?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Is he still alive today?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   When did you last see him alive or hear from him?

10        A.   The last time I saw him was in Korfica [phoen] village.  I don't

11     know the exact date when the army marched into Visegrad.  He came with

12     another man to Kabotica [phoen] village where I was with my unit, and

13     that's when I saw him for the last time, and he returned to the town.

14        Q.   What year would that have been?

15        A.   1992.  I think the first half of May.

16        Q.   And did you -- did you subsequently receive some information

17     about what happened to him?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   What did you hear -- what did you hear happened to him?

20        A.   He was executed.  First he was detained at the police

21     administration in Visegrad, and after that, as I learnt, he was taken to

22     the Uzamnica military barracks in Visegrad, and that's where he was

23     executed, as I learned, and if you want to know from whom I learned it,

24     it was Milan Lukic.

25        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

Page 888

 1             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, I found the information about the advice

 2     to the Defence that the document, the list of 15 names, would be referred

 3     to during the examination-in-chief.  An e-mail was sent on Friday, the

 4     29th of August, at 3.53 p.m. advising that this document would form part

 5     of the examination-in-chief.  So I'm wondering on that basis if --

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, you may proceed.

 7             MR. COLE:  I suppose, sir, it's just a matter of it being --

 8     well, in fact the witness has referred to it.  I don't think we need,

 9     sir, any further -- spend any time on it.  The witness covered it without

10     referring to the list of 15 names, so I'm intent to leave it at that,

11     sir.  It will be a Defence exhibit.  For the record, Y019-1568.  It's a

12     document that was supplied to the Prosecution, but it doesn't have a 65

13     ter number, sir.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

15             MR. COLE:  So those are my questions.  Thank you, sir.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

18        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Kurspahic.  Good afternoon, Mr. Kurspahic.

19        A.   Good afternoon.

20        Q.   My name is Jason Alarid and I'm representing Mr. Milan Lukic here

21     today.  May I ask a few questions about your memories?

22        A.   Yes, go ahead.

23        Q.   The first thing I would like to discuss with you is the structure

24     of the police and your experience with the police as you left in April

25     1992.  Can we do that?

Page 889

 1        A.   Yes, we can.

 2        Q.   Now, at the time you left Visegrad, what was your position

 3     specifically?

 4        A.   I was the commanding officer of the police administration in

 5     Medjedja, and that's where I was the whole time.  I went there and

 6     continued working there as an active-duty policeman, commanding officer,

 7     that is komandir, of the reserve police administration in Medjedja.

 8        Q.   Now, in terms of the reserve police administration what is the

 9     difference to you between an active-duty police officer and a

10     reserve-duty police officer?

11        A.   An active-duty police officer wore a uniform of one kind, and

12     reserve police officers wore different uniforms from a different

13     material.  We received a salary and they did not.

14        Q.   Please describe the differences in the uniforms, please.

15        A.   The active police had blue uniforms, and the reserve police

16     uniforms were homespun cloth, also blueish.

17        Q.   Did anyone wear camouflage uniforms as a member of the police?

18        A.   In my area, in my detachment, no one.

19        Q.   And your detachment, was it debanded when the police force broke

20     up into Serb and Muslim partitions?

21        A.   Yes.  We were in Medjedja.  We no longer gravitated towards

22     Visegrad, and, yes, they were disbanded.

23        Q.   And why did you know longer gravitate toward Visegrad?

24        A.   Well, it was not our purpose to gravitate towards Visegrad.  Our

25     area was the local commune of Medjedja.

Page 890

 1        Q.   And that local commune was a Muslim commune.  Isn't that correct?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Was it a mixed community?

 4        A.   Yes, it was mixed.  I have a whole study, if you want me to

 5     elaborate on this.  There were 91 per cent Muslims and 9 per cent Serbs

 6     and others.

 7        Q.   And did it stay that way after the fighting began or did the

 8     Serbs move away?

 9        A.   No, it did not stay that way.  The Serbs left the police

10     administration ten days before the war broke out.  They walked out.

11        Q.   And what was the police administration before the war broke out?

12     Who was the commander?

13        A.   I was the commanding officer, komandir, and Sine [phoen] Furtula,

14     a Serb, was my deputy.

15        Q.   And as the commander officer are you saying you had jurisdiction

16     over the 220 reserve officers?

17        A.   That's not true.  Maybe you misunderstood me.  In total the

18     police administration with six local communes had reserve and active

19     police officers around 220 or perhaps 250 with a full complement.  That

20     was the situation.

21        Q.   And so you're including at this time the active-duty officers, of

22     which you mentioned there were 31?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And as commander you said you were commander of the reserve

25     force.  Did you have 220 men under your control, or was that divided by

Page 891

 1     the five communities -- or six communities?

 2        A.   Sir, I definitely had 51 officers in the local commune of

 3     Medjedja.  I commanded 51 active police officers.  Two hundred twenty was

 4     the total number for the municipality of Visegrad.  I think I was quite

 5     clear.

 6        Q.   And when it broke up how many Muslims were there and how many

 7     Serbs were there?

 8        A.   I've said there were only Muslims.  We were 47, and there were

 9     four Serbs in total, including the deputy commander, and they all walked

10     out of their jobs ten days before the war started.

11        Q.   Yet would it -- would it be fair to say that the Serb side of the

12     police force still considered themselves active duty and working?

13        A.   I don't know whether they continued to work in Visegrad.  Most

14     likely they did, but they no longer worked in Medjedja.

15        Q.   And would it be fair also that you wouldn't have had access to

16     the Serbian police force records considering that you were in Medjedja?

17        A.   I had no access from the moment the Serb police force was

18     established.  I've never seen those files.

19        Q.   And isn't it true that a police force is something where new

20     hires do come on, and also this was a time of war so there might have

21     been people being conscripted or drafted into the police force?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And were there opportunities where you on the Muslim side drafted

24     and conscripted people into the police force in order to keep order?

25        A.   Yes, but not then, not at that time at the beginning.  It was in

Page 892

 1     September 1992 that some new officers joined my unit.

 2        Q.   But you would have no knowledge of new officers that joined the

 3     Serbian side of the police force.  Isn't that correct?

 4        A.   Correct.  I wouldn't know that.

 5        Q.   And so you wouldn't have any knowledge here to give the Court

 6     today whether or not Milan Lukic might have been hired after you left in

 7     April of 1992?

 8        A.   I've made a statement that I had never heard until two days ago

 9     that Milan Lukic had ever been a policeman, active or reserve duty, in

10     that republic, and you can check and compare my statement with the

11     statements of policemen who have testified in the court case against

12     Lalek Zeljko at the state court in Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo.  There

13     are three of those witnesses.  If you need their names I'll give them to

14     you.

15        Q.   Please do.

16        A.   And they emphatically said that Milan Lukic had never been on the

17     police force.

18        Q.   And do you have their names?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   What are their names?

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, before we ask the witness the names may

23     we make some inquiry as to whether these witnesses may be under

24     protective measures in the Sarajevo court or take it in closed session

25     to -- in the event that there might be that chance?

Page 893

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.  Who would know if they are under

 2     protection?  Mr. Alarid wouldn't know, but so -- I believe that out of an

 3     abundance of caution, let us go into private session.

 4             MR. GROOME:  We can make a phone call later today, Your Honour,

 5     to verify whether they are or not and then maybe amended the Court's

 6     order.

 7           [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Chamber]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in private session.

 9             MR. ALARID:

10        Q.   We're in private session, sir.  Can you name those witnesses,

11     please?

12        A.   If the Court permits me to say that, I will do so.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, go ahead.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Darinko Savic, a desk officer still

15     working at the Visegrad police administration.  She was a desk officer in

16     the passport department.  The next one was Miladina Uljarevic.  She was

17     in charge of the personnel department in Visegrad while I was there

18     working there.  I don't know whether she's still working there or not.

19     And the third witness was inspector Boban Tomic, a police inspector.  He

20     has retired in the meantime as I understand, and he lives in Visegrad, as

21     all of them do.

22             MR. ALARID:

23        Q.   Now, you don't have any real idea of whether these people were

24     working at the police department during the early months, the spring of

25     1992, do you?

Page 894

 1        A.   What people?

 2        Q.   The three witnesses you've just mentioned.

 3        A.   Yes, they were working and they're still working except for

 4     Boban, who has retired.  Miladina, I'm not sure about, but Dara

 5     definitely is working.

 6        Q.   Working today doesn't necessarily mean they were working in June

 7     of 1992 since that was during the war.

 8        A.   Sir, they were working all the time with me for ten years.

 9        Q.   But you had no access to the Serbian side of the police force

10     after April 1992.  Isn't that true?

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We can go back to public session now.

12             Just a minute, please.  Witness, just a minute.

13             Let us return to open session.

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, you may proceed now, Witness, with your

17     answer.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             MR. ALARID:

20        Q.   Do you know an officer Momir Lakic?

21        A.   Momir Lakic was never a policeman in Visegrad.  That is to say

22     while I was there I had never heard of him being one.

23        Q.   So you're not aware that over a hundred new reserve police

24     officers were put into place after the break-up of the Serbian and Muslim

25     police force?

Page 895

 1        A.   I don't know, sir.  I wasn't interested.

 2        Q.   But you're a police officer.  Why wouldn't you be interested in

 3     what the Serbian side was doing?

 4        A.   I wasn't interested in that specific aspect, whether they have

 5     reached the required manpower levels.  That was somebody else's concern,

 6     not mine.

 7        Q.   What are the required manpower levels according to your standard

 8     procedures?

 9        A.   Where?

10        Q.   In Visegrad.

11        A.   I don't know.  Previously it was between 220 and 250 of both

12     active and reserve-duty officers as a municipality.  I wasn't involved in

13     this particular area, and I wasn't interested in that.

14        Q.   After the break-up of the police department do you have knowledge

15     of who became commander of the police force?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Who was that?  Who was the commander of the police force, sir?

18        A.   Dragan Tomic, who used to be an inspector while I was in active

19     service, and after the Muslims left and the dissolution of the police

20     force, Dragan Tomic came on board.  I heard that he was killed in 1992.

21        Q.   And who was the chief of the police force?

22        A.   I don't know.  I have certain information that Risto Perisic was

23     appointed head of the police administration.

24        Q.   And isn't true that it would have been the Crisis Staff that

25     would have appointed Mr. Perisic to head of the police administration?

Page 896

 1        A.   Listen, I don't know about that.  This is not my area.  These are

 2     political issues.  I am involved in police work.  Who is being appointed

 3     and how, I really cannot tell you.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, you must bear that in mind.  The witness

 5     says he doesn't have any knowledge in that area.  Let's move on to

 6     another area.

 7             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's move on to another area.

 9             MR. ALARID:

10        Q.   So what you're saying, sir, is that the appointment of these

11     officials became a political matter at that time?

12        A.   I don't know.  You are now trying to provoke me here.  I came

13     here -- give me specific questions.  I've told you I don't know.  Do you

14     need anything else from me?

15        Q.   Well --

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, I have some sympathy for the

17     witness.  He has said he doesn't know anything about these matters, so

18     move on.

19             MR. ALARID:

20        Q.   Do you know a police officer named Vidoje Andric?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Tell me about your knowledge of Mr. Andric.

23        A.   Mr. Vidoje Andric was a reserve policeman while I was in the

24     Visegrad police administration.  I have heard that he was killed in a car

25     along with Dragan Tomic, Vidoje Andric, Milutin's son, I don't know his

Page 897

 1     name, and another person in the village of Okrugla near Visegrad, that

 2     they drove over a mine, an anti-tank mine on the road that had been

 3     planted by the Serbs to prevent the Muslims from reaching the bridge,

 4     because there were about 800 Muslims -- Muslim refugees in the forest

 5     near the village of Okrugla.

 6        Q.   What was the date of this mine incident?

 7        A.   I don't know the exact date.  I know that it was the first half

 8     of 1992, because sometime in July these refugees managed to cross over to

 9     the free territory, actually to Medjedja.

10        Q.   Now, you indicated on direct exam that this was a small town and

11     you knew everyone; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   But you did not know Milan Lukic; correct?

14        A.   Not much, because he left Visegrad a long time ago.  I used to

15     know him when he was a little boy.

16        Q.   And how did you know him as a little boy?  How old was he the

17     last time you could say you saw Milan Lukic?

18        A.   I think it was the time when he attended elementary school.  If

19     you want me to explain how I knew him, I can do that.  At the time I was

20     an active-duty policeman in Kamenica village where a Centrotrans bus from

21     Visegrad was parked.  Milan broke into that bus, and I as the commander

22     of that sector, Milos Mandic, carried out the on-site investigation, and

23     that was the last time I saw him, and that is when I became acquainted

24     with him.

25        Q.   Did you know his family?

Page 898

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Did you know who his father was?  Mile?

 3        A.   I know Milan.  He was working in the forestry department.  I know

 4     him very well.

 5        Q.   And I said Mile, not Milan.

 6        A.   His father, Mile.  I think I also didn't say Milan.  I think we

 7     understand each other well.  However, I can repeat if necessary.

 8        Q.   Did you know a police officer Milovan Vilaret?

 9        A.   No.  I know that there is only one Vilaret household in the area

10     of Visegrad, definitely only one household.

11        Q.   And you don't know Milovan?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Now, you -- in this particular case you gave several statements

14     and those have been introduced into evidence; correct?

15        A.   What are you referring to?  Yes.

16        Q.   And you also reviewed your father's videotaped interview on the

17     television?

18        A.   Yes, but not entirely.

19        Q.   Did you review the transcript in B/C/S of the interview?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you read that in its entirety?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, do you realize that in that particular interview with the

24     journalist your father does not make mention of any of the names of the

25     accused except Mitar Vasiljevic?

Page 899

 1        A.   I know.

 2        Q.   And he did not mention anything about rapes occurring during his

 3     detention there.  Isn't that true?

 4        A.   He said in his interview that he didn't know about rapes, and

 5     that is what I read.

 6        Q.   And he also indicated in his interview that he did not know the

 7     young men who had detained him.  Isn't that true?

 8        A.   Yes, that's true.

 9        Q.   And the only reference that he made to Mitar Vasiljevic was that

10     Mujo had received a piece of paper giving him safe passage.  Isn't that

11     true?  Isn't that true, sir, that Mujo had gotten a piece of paper from

12     Mitar Vasiljevic setting out that he would receive no harm?

13        A.   That's what it says in my father's statement.  That's what is

14     written there.

15        Q.   And he gave this statement pretty close after the incident, in

16     July of 1992.  Isn't that true?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And yet in your later statements you indicate that your father --

19     and how old was your father at the time of the incident?

20        A.   He was 70.  So he was born in 1990 -- 1919.  So if my mathematics

21     is okay, 72.

22        Q.   And he died in what year, sir?

23        A.   In 1996, in Sarajevo.

24        Q.   And you indicated in your statement that you had spoken with him

25     on five or six occasions between 1992 and 1996?

Page 900

 1        A.   Yes, because we had lived together.  From 1995 onwards until he

 2     died we lived together in Sarajevo.

 3        Q.   And when did you retire from the police force?

 4        A.   On the 1st of January, 1998, from the Centar police

 5     administration in Sarajevo.

 6        Q.   Was that a promotion of sorts to go to Sarajevo from the smaller

 7     community of Visegrad?

 8        A.   I wasn't interested in that.  I had kidney problems at the time.

 9     I was airlifted by helicopter to Sarajevo.  If this Honourable Court

10     would allow me to say, I was supposed to go to Germany to work as a

11     security officer, but I wasn't able to leave Gorazde for 11 months.  I

12     was transferred from Gorazde.  I have papers to support that, and I

13     officially joined the Centar police administration in Sarajevo.

14        Q.   As a police officer for several decades, was it your

15     responsibility to do long-term criminal investigations?

16        A.   That's an integral part of police work.

17        Q.   And is an integral part of police work filing police reports,

18     taking statements?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And being a police officer is really a 24-hour-a-day job.  You

21     come to work when the need arises.  Isn't that true?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And yet you never filed formal police reports and statements on

24     behalf of your father in the investigation of the Pionirska Street fire.

25     Isn't that true?

Page 901

 1        A.   What do you mean?  File where?

 2        Q.   Well, according to you, you had specific information through your

 3     father and other witnesses, essentially VG-114 about both the fires of

 4     Bikavac and Pionirska Street.  Isn't that true?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And in -- but you did not file any formal police reports in

 7     accordance with your duties as a police officer after speaking with his

 8     witnesses.  Isn't that true?

 9        A.   That's not true, sir.  If necessary, I can explain.  I took

10     statements and other numerous statements.  After the fall of Medjedja I

11     set all the records on fire in order to prevent them from getting into

12     the hands of the Serbs.  It fell on the 31st of May.

13        Q.   When, sir, the 31st of May?

14        A.   That is the date when Medjedja fell, and I think I set the

15     documentation on fire that very same night.

16        Q.   31st of May when?

17        A.   1993, and the other one I set on fire in Medjedja when the army

18     entered, and that would be on the 14th -- give me a second.  The 14th of

19     April, 1992.  I had some papers.  I set them on fire in Medjedja when the

20     Uzice and the Romanija Corps arrived in the area of Visegrad

21     municipality.  These are -- were former JNA units.

22        Q.   Why not forward your investigation to Sarajevo where larger

23     authorities could take action?

24        A.   There were no communications, sir.

25        Q.   Do you realize that if you set them on fire in Medjedja in 1992

Page 902

 1     that was before the dates of the fires that we're talking about here

 2     today?

 3        A.   That was only part of the records.  It does not refer to the ones

 4     referring to taking criminal statements and things like that, and you

 5     wouldn't be interested in those papers, sir.

 6        Q.   No.  The papers I'm interested in are direct investigations

 7     relating to the Pionirska Street fire or the Bikavac fire.  Those are the

 8     papers we're interested in.

 9        A.   A report rather than a statement was written by me, and I set

10     both reports on fire on the 31st of May, 1993, when I left the area of

11     Visegrad.

12        Q.   And yet you waited until March 20th of 1994, more than two

13     years -- or almost two years after the fire to give your next statement.

14     Isn't that true?

15        A.   Who shall I file it to, sir?  I was the main man in the area.  We

16     were surrounded.  There was no way out.

17        Q.   But yet in 1994, it was the first time you made authorities in

18     Sarajevo aware of the fact that you believed -- or in fact you told them

19     your father reported that Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and Mitar

20     Vasiljevic committed the fire in Pionirska Street.  Isn't that true?

21        A.   That is true, but not in Sarajevo.  It was in Gorazde.

22        Q.   Gorazde.  I apologise.  And you also indicated in that statement

23     that your father had -- had indicated that a rape had occurred and named

24     a name.  Isn't that true?

25        A.   Yes.  He told me that directly.

Page 903

 1        Q.   But in the statement given by your father to the journalist just

 2     a month after the incident, he made no mention of knowledge of any rapes

 3     or even knowledge of the identities of any of the named accused other

 4     than Mitar Vasiljevic.  Isn't that true?

 5        A.   That is true, but you have to look at this man, how he looked

 6     like after this tragedy in which 70 of his neighbours and relatives,

 7     including his wife, were burned.  He lost two daughters and two sons.  He

 8     was held captive in Visegrad.  Please put yourself in his position.  He

 9     was seriously ill.  What kind of statement would you, sir, give if you

10     were in his shoes?

11        Q.   Well, if I witnessed or knew of a rape, I might say I knew of a

12     rape.

13             MR. GROOME:  Objection as to relevance.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That is a rhetorical question illustrated that

15     way.  Move on.

16             MR. ALARID:

17        Q.   Now, in your statement to the ICTY in the year 2000, was that the

18     next time after 1994 you gave an interview addressing the fires on

19     Pionirska Street or Bikavac?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you realize that there's no mention of your contact with

22     VG-114 or the Bikavac fire in your 2000 statement to the ICTY?

23        A.   It is possible, but I'm here now, and I can tell you.  Ask me

24     anything you wish.

25        Q.   Well, the one thing I'd like to ask you is excluding what people

Page 904

 1     told you or what you heard, you really know absolutely nothing about the

 2     Pionirska Street fire or the Bikavac fire.  This all came second-hand to

 3     you.  Isn't that true?

 4        A.   Well, yes.  I wasn't there.

 5        Q.   And isn't it true that over time your statement has changed and

 6     you have added names to your father's statement since he gave it in 1992?

 7        A.   I gave the statement in which I repeated what he had told me.  I

 8     don't know what he said earlier, nor had I had an opportunity to see what

 9     he stated earlier.

10        Q.   Well, in your statement of 3 -- or excuse me, March 20th, 1994,

11     you only named four names -- excuse me, three names in relation to the

12     Pionirska Street fire.  Isn't that true?

13        A.   I don't know.  You have my statement.  You can check whether it's

14     correct, and I cannot confirm that until I look at my statement.  You

15     should be aware of how a long time has elapsed since.

16        Q.   Well, by the time we get to 2000, you've added and you've implied

17     that seven people were directly responsible for the fire in Pionirska

18     Street.

19        A.   There's mention of seven men being there at the time.  Some were

20     nearby the house.  The three or four of them, Milan, Sredoje and Mitar

21     entered the house while the rest were in the yard, Bosko, Lalco, Susnjar

22     and the reported teacher Milan, according to my father, and I gave my

23     statement on the basis of his statement.

24        Q.   Do you realize that a trial has occurred in this case in the

25     matter of Mitar Vasiljevic, and it's already been concluded?

Page 905

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you realize at that trial Mitar Vasiljevic proved that he had

 3     in fact broken his leg and could not have been anywhere in Visegrad after

 4     8.00 p.m. in the evening?

 5             MR. GROOME:  Objection.  I'm not sure that's relevant nor am I

 6     sure that's a fair characterisation of what the Trial Chamber found in

 7     that case, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What's the point of the question?

 9             MR. ALARID:  The point of the question is -- is he's taking from

10     a hearsay perspective what his father said about people's involvement of

11     fire that went into the late evening.  In fact, all other reports say the

12     fire started close to midnight.  The Trial Chamber found that Mitar

13     Vasiljevic could -- checked himself into the hospital around 9.30 in the

14     evening and I believe the 8.00 p.m. reference I made was relating the

15     time it would take someone from actually breaking their leg to get to the

16     hospital.  And so in that fact it was impossible for Mitar Vasiljevic to

17     have been at the scene of the fire that evening at the late night hours,

18     early morning hours of the fire.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. --

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, it would seem to me that if -- I mean

21     the Chamber today has the task of evaluating this witness's evidence.  It

22     seems to me if Mr. Alarid is saying that this other -- the findings of

23     the Bench in Mitar Vasiljevic is evidence that should be used in this

24     court, then a motion for adjudicated facts should be made.  It's also

25     inaccurate what is being said about the case.  The Trial Chamber in

Page 906

 1     Mitar -- in the Mitar Vasiljevic case found that Mitar Vasiljevic was

 2     present at the Pionirska Street location and was instrumental in getting

 3     those people to stay there and did provide a document.  Again information

 4     that is corroborated by the -- the witness here today with respect to

 5     what his father has told him, but the Prosecution hasn't stood up here

 6     and -- and said to the witness, well, this is what the Trial Chamber

 7     found in this other case.  I believe it's irrelevant what the Trial

 8     Chamber found to the task that the Chamber is engaging in in this present

 9     trial.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, do you know what the Trial Chamber

11     found in the Mitar Vasiljevic case in relation to this particular matter?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I wasn't interested.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Let's -- thank you.

14             He doesn't know.  Let's move on.

15             MR. ALARID:

16        Q.   If that -- hypothetically speaking, sir, if it were shown that

17     Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic were not able to be --

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What is the line you're pursuing now?

19             MR. ALARID:  Well, the line is that again this is second-hand

20     information, and maybe certain people he spoke to were mistaken.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Go ahead.

22             MR. ALARID:

23        Q.   And so, sir, if it was discovered that Mitar Vasiljevic broke his

24     leg in the early evening hours of the date of the fire and could not have

25     been present when it started, would that mean that certain people you

Page 907

 1     spoke to were in fact mistaken or assumed something that was incorrect?

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm not going to allow that.

 3             Don't answer that, Witness.

 4             I'm not allowing that question.  It's not for the witness to say

 5     what is in people's minds or how they would view that particular

 6     situation.

 7             MR. ALARID:  And this, Your Honour, as an American lawyer this

 8     provides one those peculiar situations of which when so much hearsay is

 9     allowed to be extrapolated upon of course with the Court being able to

10     take into consideration the weight of any particular set of evidence, it

11     is difficult for me to cross-examine this when in fact this witness's

12     understanding the fire came completely from someone else's understanding.

13     So essentially allowing him to testify via 92 ter and also reaffirm that

14     today, you are allowing him to say that his father understood X, Y, and

15     Z, let's say, and if I'm not allowed to at least challenge that but sort

16     of put it to the witness as you say, that is really -- you know, where

17     else can I do that, because there was a trial finding of fact related to

18     the ability of Mr. Vasiljevic to both be at the Bikavac fire and the

19     Pionirska Street fire.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, I'll tell you where else you can do

21     that.  You can do it in your submissions to us and ask us to attach very

22     little or no weight to the evidence.

23             MR. ALARID:  Understood, Your Honour.  I just -- it's hard for me

24     to put it to the witness any other way.  That's I guess --

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's move on.  Ah, we have passed the time for

Page 908

 1     the break.  Let us break for 20 minutes.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, you have about 15 minutes.

 5             MR. ALARID:  Fifteen or 50, Your Honour?

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Fifteen.

 7             MR. ALARID:  Yes.

 8        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, I'd like to ask you about a few names and ask you

 9     if you recognise them of members of the reserve police force as you left

10     in April of 1992.  Do you know a Nenad Tanaskovic?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Who was he?

13        A.   He used to be a ticket controller in Centrotrans.  He used to be

14     a reserve policeman during my time.

15        Q.   And as reserve police officers, do they only come into duty as an

16     emergency arises or special circumstances?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   So they would be on duty at other times as well; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you know Sladan Simic?

21        A.   I can't remember.  The name and surname are familiar.  Possibly.

22     He could have also been one of the reserve police officers.  I know the

23     name and surname, but I cannot put them to a face.

24        Q.   What about Mirko Lakic?

25        A.   Mirko Lakic was never in the reserve police force if we mean the

Page 909

 1     same Mirko Lakic who was constantly at Bikavac as a driver for

 2     Centrotrans.

 3        Q.   And he was never on the reserve police force before you left in

 4     April 1992; correct?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   And how about Mladen Markovic?

 7        A.   I know him.

 8        Q.   What was his capacity?

 9        A.   He was on the reserve police force, but I don't know about his

10     job.  Maybe he worked in Partizan or some other business.

11        Q.   So you weren't always as familiar with all the members of the

12     reserve police force as some, i.e., you knew some more than others?

13        A.   Right.

14        Q.   How about Zivorad Markovic?

15        A.   I know that such a person exists.  I know the name and surname,

16     but I can't recall him now.  I don't know what he was doing.

17        Q.   Mile Lakic?

18        A.   I'm trying to recall.  I know the name and surname.  Perhaps if

19     you assist me, if you tell me what he was doing, maybe I could tell you.

20        Q.   Was he a reserve police officer?

21        A.   I don't know.  There was a Lakic.  One Lakic certainly was on the

22     force.  I can't remember the first name.

23        Q.   What about Novak Poluga?

24        A.   I knew him from Preoska Rijeka.

25        Q.   As a reserve police officer?

Page 910

 1        A.   He was not on the force during my time.

 2        Q.   How about Zoran Joksimovic?

 3        A.   I know him.  He is one of my neighbours.  He was on the reserve

 4     police force.  Sometime before the end of the war.  I don't know for how

 5     long but I know it was not a long time.

 6        Q.   Now, were you able to actually see, and I would pose this

 7     question to the Prosecution to assist me, is the list shown the witness

 8     earlier on in -- with Milan Lukic's name on it?  Its number is Y019, it's

 9     been updated as Y019-1568.  And could we have that brought onto the

10     screen, please.

11             Now, sir, you indicated earlier that you had not seen this

12     document before; correct?

13        A.   I did see it two days ago.

14        Q.   But before two days ago you had not seen it; correct?

15        A.   No, I did not.

16        Q.   And would it be fair to say that this is on a regular form of

17     police documentation?

18        A.   Well, as for the heading and the format, it looks like an

19     authentic document.

20        Q.   Including the stamp at the bottom?

21        A.   At that time that stamp was not in use.  There was a very big

22     round police stamp.  But speaking of stamps, a small police stamp was

23     used in Visegrad by Muslims to designate liquidation.  When they put a

24     big stamp it means passage.  I have never seen this, though, not before

25     two days ago.

Page 911

 1        Q.   And in looking at the names on the list, I went through some of

 2     the names.  Isn't it true that the names that you recognise as reserve

 3     police officers, some of them are on this list?

 4        A.   Perica Markovic and all these other names and surnames gravitate

 5     towards Visegrad territory, Andric Vidoje, Tasic Zeljko was my colleague,

 6     active duty policeman.  Lukic Milan was never a policeman.  The next one

 7     was liquidated a year ago perhaps.  He was killed after testifying in

 8     Sarajevo.  Spasoje Vidakovic, active-duty policeman, he used to be in

 9     Sarajevo working as an active-duty policeman, and he had not come to the

10     police station when I was there.  I checked his records when he went to

11     the police academy.  Novica Savic, the Savic family is dispersed.  They

12     live in two or three different places.  I can't recognise that.  Mladen

13     Andric, I don't know.  Nedeljko Gogic, I don't know him personally.

14     Joksimovic, I can't make out the first name, Timotije.  I know Joksimovic

15     Timotije was in Kragujevac.  I know only one Joksimovic.  I'm not sure

16     about the first name.  Mirko Lakic, I've explained already.  Goran

17     Zecevic was never on the police force during my time.  He was working in

18     Switzerland.  Sladjan Simic, I know there was one Simic in Koritnik, but

19     whether this is the same person, I'm not sure.  Miodrag Bozic, the Bozics

20     live in one part of Visegrad in the Lijesak [phoen] and some others live

21     in the Visegrad-Zupa.  Mile Lakic, I've already explained.  Anything else

22     you want to know?

23        Q.   And so some of them were reserve police officers before you left,

24     before your time there in Visegrad, correct?

25        A.   Yes, yes.

Page 912

 1        Q.   And the rest, you would not know if they came on after you left

 2     because you were not -- you did not have access to those records after

 3     your departure?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5             MR. ALARID:  No further questions at this time, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

 7             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, one moment.  Could we introduce the

 9     last document that we put in, the Y019-1568.  We'd like to introduce it

10     as evidence.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be admitted as Exhibit 1D25, Your

13     Honours.

14             MR. CEPIC:  May I, Your Honour?

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, yes.

16             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kurspahic, good afternoon.

19        A.   Good afternoon.

20        Q.   My name is Djuro Cepic, and I appear here for Sredoje Lukic.

21        A.   Nice to meet you.

22        Q.   Before I ask you anything, I want to say on behalf of my entire

23     team that we sympathise with you, and we want to express our condolences

24     for the deaths of your family members in that tragic incident.

25             My client Sredoje Lukic is very sorry, but he's unable to address

Page 913

 1     you directly but those are the rules of the Court.  He has no opportunity

 2     to ask you any questions himself.  He only stood up in order to look you

 3     in the eyes.

 4             Mr. Kurspahic, I maintain to you that my client Mr. Sredoje

 5     Lukic, on the 14th of June, 1992, was not in Pionirska Street.  He was

 6     not in Visegrad, and he had no part in that incident.  Do you understand

 7     me?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10        A.   May I ask you, were you there on that fateful day in Visegrad?

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness.  Witness, it is not for you to ask

12     questions.  Your role is to answer the questions.

13             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   You've told us that you had worked with Sredoje Lukic for ten

15     years.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Is it correct that Sredoje Lukic was a good colleague and he

18     socialized equally with Serbs and Muslims alike?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   As far as you are concerned, did Sredoje Lukic always express his

21     respect for you and said that you are a good head of your family?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you perhaps remember that his first child was born in a Muslim

24     house while he was living with your common colleague, Taib Barukdzic?

25        A.   Yes, all of that is correct.

Page 914

 1        Q.   Do you also recall that he also had Kustur Hajira [phoen] among

 2     his friends?  He was another one of your colleagues, and they even

 3     travelled to the seaside together.

 4        A.   Yes, we were all friends.

 5        Q.   In the Vasiljevic case you said your father knew Sredoje Lukic

 6     very well?

 7        A.   Yes, he did know him.

 8        Q.   Would you agree that you also knew Sredoje's father Djordje?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   The police station in Visegrad, is it close to the green market?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Was Wednesday the market day in Visegrad?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you perhaps recall that on market days Sredoje's father

15     Djordje dropped by the station to say hello to his son, and if he did not

16     find him there he would leave a message either with you or another one of

17     your colleagues?

18        A.   Yes, but you can't say it happened only on Wednesdays.  He

19     dropped by on other days as well.

20        Q.   Was it the same situation when your father dropped by the police

21     station and left messages for you with Sredoje?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   When you met in the street, your father, you, and Sredoje, would

24     you shake hands, say hello, ask after each other's health?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 915

 1        Q.   In 1982 and 1983, was Sredoje your next-door neighbour?

 2        A.   Yes.  He lived in my street.

 3        Q.   Did he know your brother Osman?

 4        A.   Yes.  You should ask him, because I don't have the right to ask

 5     him.  Yes.

 6        Q.   Is it correct that Sredoje often visited you at your home?

 7        A.   Yes, if that means anything.

 8        Q.   Did he also call on your brother Osman?

 9        A.   I believe so, since he lived in the neighbourhood.  If not at his

10     home, then he dropped by at the shop where my brother worked.

11        Q.   Did your father also go to that house where you were with

12     Sredoje?

13        A.   Of course.

14        Q.   And when he would call on you he would have to pass by the house

15     where Sredoje lived?

16        A.   I didn't pay attention, but he should have.

17        Q.   Did you ever visit Sredoje's home as a guest playing cards, you

18     and your colleague Mr. Hanic?

19        A.   Yes, while he was building a new house I did call on them a few

20     times in that area, Seganje.

21        Q.   Was Sredoje a policeman in town, or was his beat around

22     surrounding villages?

23        A.   He worked in town, in the traffic police service.  He had many

24     duties.  It was nothing specific.

25        Q.   Let me ask you about certain traditions.  I hail from a

Page 916

 1     patriarchal community myself.  The women in villages, especially in

 2     Koritnik village, your birthplace, were they able to visit bars and

 3     taverns without husbands?

 4        A.   Well, they could have but it was not customary.

 5        Q.   But married women and mothers with children did not go around

 6     bars and taverns?

 7        A.   Don't ask me things like that.  My wife didn't go out alone.  She

 8     did go out with me.  I didn't ask other people what they did.  Where

 9     would I get the right to ask who is going where?

10        Q.   Would you agree with me that VG-13 and VG-18 did not know Sredoje

11     Lukic?

12        A.   They should know him, and if they come here you have to ask them.

13     Plus the -- the opportunity was there.  It was possible for them to know

14     him.

15        Q.   You will agree that among these persons who met their death at

16     Pionirska Street, your father, late Sahib , knew Sredoje the best?

17        A.   How would I know that?

18        Q.   You mentioned today that Milan Lukic had never been a policeman.

19        A.   Yes.  Not that I know of.  I've never heard of him being a

20     policeman.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. --

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I put it to the Court that it's the

23     Chamber that should decide whether the witness is going on to irrelevant

24     matters.  I'm noticing a pattern here.  Mr. Cepic by saying the word

25     thank you, he's cutting the witness off from saying the witness's

Page 917

 1     complete answer.  If the witness is giving irrelevant information, again

 2     I put it the Chamber should decide that, not Mr. Cepic.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I must say I hadn't noticed that, but,

 4     Mr. Cepic, I'll be on the lookout for that, and don't cut off the

 5     witness.  The witness is entitled to give his answer in its entirety

 6     unless the Chamber stops him.

 7             Please continue.

 8             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just to speed up procedure

 9     but if any issue is raised, there's redirect examination and witness can

10     clarify additionally to the OTP, so I'm just trying to --

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the problem is, I mean as you can see

12     from the transcript, while I do know that "hvala" means thank you, it

13     doesn't appear anywhere on the transcript, so it's happening so quickly

14     that the interpreters are aren't able to translate it and put it on the

15     record.  Of course, anything that is on the record that we are aware of

16     we will afford ourselves of our opportunity to redirect if necessary.  I

17     would just ask that the witness not be interrupted.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And please observe the pause between question

19     and answer.  Witness, do you hear that?  You both speak the same language

20     so there's tendency to overlap, so observe a pause between question and

21     answer and let us ensure that the interpretation is as accurate as is

22     possible.  Please continue.

23             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kurspahic, unlike Milan Lukic, you will

25     agree with me Mr. Sredoje Lukic was a policeman.

Page 918

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And according to the information that you share, he was a

 3     policeman during the first months of the war.

 4        A.   He was a policeman throughout, until he went to the forest

 5     together with 12 other men in the beginning of April.

 6             MR. CEPIC:  Could we go to the private session, please.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 919











11  Pages 919-920 redacted. Private session.















Page 921

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

16             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, you would agree with me that you had an extremely

18     friendly relationship with Sredoje Lukic since you used to call each

19     other "Amidzic"?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   I compared the transcripts in both the B/C/S and English

22     languages and I noticed a mistake and I'd appreciate if you could clarify

23     that for me.  Am I right to say that during the liberation, Sredoje had

24     short hair?  He didn't have a shaved head, he wasn't bald.

25        A.   I remember whether it was -- he had rather long hair but with a

Page 922

 1     part that was shaved off.  Whether it was in the form of a cross or what,

 2     I'm not sure.  You can ask him, he's here.  But I noticed that.  He came

 3     out with his hands behind his head.  I told him, "Amidzic, don't be

 4     afraid, I'm here."  He's here alive and well and he can confirm that.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Does "Amidzic" have a special meaning?  Witness,

 6     I was asking, does "Amidzic" have a special meaning?

 7        A.   There's no special meaning.  It -- this refers to sons of two

 8     brothers.  This is what we Muslims called "Amidzic".  This is your

 9     brother's son, for example.  If it is your sister's son, it's referred to

10     as "Tetic," et cetera.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you very much.

12             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  May I continue?

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

14             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Also captured there were Niko Vujicic,

16     Dragicevic, although Dragicevic was a higher ranking one, you did call

17     only Sredoje Lukic because you were on friendly terms with him.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   On that occasion when you went your separate ways did you embrace

20     one another, and did you have tears in your eyes?

21        A.   No.  I never approached him.  We were about three to five metres

22     apart when I told him that, but when my men came to take him away, I

23     wasn't on the spot.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kurspahic, while you were thinking about this

25     event, about this crime, did you ever have any suspicion that it could

Page 923

 1     really have been done by your colleague and friend Sredoje Lukic?

 2        A.   I didn't think along those lines.

 3        Q.   No, no.  Please give me a specific answer.

 4        A.   No.  Why would I suspect that?  I could have suspected it if I

 5     think he did it.  I wouldn't be able to tell -- to do this to me.  Allow

 6     me to say this to the Court.  Don't interrupt me.  I wouldn't be able to

 7     do to him what he did to me after I saved his life at my own risk without

 8     any commands or order.  I did it at my own risk, on my own volition, and

 9     I risked my life.  I released the 13 of them.

10        Q.   Does it sound reasonable to you that after such kind of

11     relationship that the two of you had he would do something like that to

12     you?  Is that logical?

13        A.   To a real man it's not logical.

14             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no

15     further questions.

16             Thank you, sir.

17                           Questioned by the Court:

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness.  Witness, when did you first learn that

19     Sredoje had committed the crime against your family?

20        A.   Approximately in the first half of June.  So approximately seven

21     to eight days later.  Don't hold me on that.  When VG-03 witness came to

22     Medjedja where I was, she told me about what had happened and that my

23     people were not involved there, but after some thinking and making some

24     conclusions, there -- it was not possible that someone of my people were

25     there, but two days later she told me the whole truth from A to Z, how

Page 924

 1     the whole incident evolved and took placement.  We were sitting in my

 2     office in Medjedja, and she gave me the full account.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And what was your first reaction when you heard

 4     about Sredoje's involvement in those crimes?

 5        A.   It was hard to believe, but I did believe, and it actually

 6     happened.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But why did you believe it, considering that you

 8     had been on friendly terms with him?

 9        A.   I believed the witness who told me about that, because she had no

10     reason to tell me something that was not true.  No person would tell you

11     a story that didn't happen.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, I'm not sure about that.

13             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Witness, I want to verify something in

14     the transcript.  When you were asked by Mr. Cole questions about your

15     brother Osman Kurspahic on page 19 of the transcript, you say that your

16     brother -- when you were asked what did you hear happened to him, you say

17     he was executed.  Now, on the list of the victims --

18        A.   Yes.

19             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  -- of the fire in Pionirska Street there

20     is a person of the same name.  Could it be that there were two Osman

21     Kurspahics, two persons of the same name?

22        A.   Yes.  This Osman Kurspahic is a cousin of mine.  He is 80 years

23     old, but my brother was born in 1954.  He was detained in the Visegrad

24     police administration where he was questioned and interrogated.  After

25     that he was transferred to a military facility in Visegrad called

Page 925

 1     Uzamnica.  I later found out that he had been executed by Milan Lukic on

 2     the compound on that facility.

 3             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole, any re-examination?

 5             MR. COLE:  Yes, I have, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 6                           Re-examination by Mr. Cole:

 7        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, I now have the opportunity just to ask you a few

 8     questions on re-examination on matters that have arisen during the

 9     cross-examination of two Defence counsel.

10        A.   Yes, go ahead.

11        Q.   Firstly, when and where was it that you heard for the first time

12     the suggestion that Milan Lukic was a police officer in Visegrad?

13        A.   I heard that from you, Mr. Prosecutor, two days ago here in the

14     OTP.  That was the first time I heard about that in my life.

15        Q.   Yes.  Now, you told Defence counsel you had set fire to some

16     documents on two occasions, and you mentioned April 1992 and the 31st of

17     March, 1993.  So I'm --

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   -- going to ask you now what type of documents were they that you

20     set fire to in April 1992?

21        A.   Those were personal documents of the police administration who

22     were containing full names of people employed with the police, and there

23     were some criminal reports referring to some criminal offences committed

24     at the time in the territory where I was working and also other police

25     records.  I destroyed them all by setting them on fire when the Romanija

Page 926

 1     and the Uzice Corps entered, and that happened in the Medjedja police

 2     administration which is situated on the right bank of the Drina viewing

 3     from Gorazde to Visegrad.  The police station was housed in a private

 4     house because our police administration that used to be located in the

 5     centre of Medjedja had been shelled by the army before and was targeted

 6     by the Serbian mortar from -- and heavy artillery from Koriste [phoen].

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

17             MR. COLE:  Thank you.

18        Q.   The -- Mr. Kurspahic, you mentioned a name a short time ago.

19     Could you give us now the pseudonym for that person.

20        A.   That's Witness VG-013.  I had her statement.  I had also a

21     statement given by a witness which I noted down who had gone to hospital.

22     That was actually not a proper statement.  It was my Official Note which

23     she did not sign and the witness mentioned here under the pseudonym also

24     didn't sign it.  That was the Official Note.  Witness number 114 was in

25     such a serious condition that she was unable to sit down.  She wasn't

Page 927

 1     able to sign the Official Note that I made, and I didn't insist on that.

 2     And there was some other documents as well which are not related to this

 3     case, please.

 4        Q.   Can I just clarify that with you?  Were there documents relating

 5     both to VG-13 and VG-114 that were amongst those that you set fire to in

 6     May of 1993?

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 8        Q.   Right.  Now, you were asked by Defence counsel about not

 9     mentioning VG-114 in your statement to the ICTY on the 12th of May, 2000.

10     I just want to ask you this:  Were you asked about VG-114 by the

11     investigator who took that statement?  Do you recall?

12        A.   No, he didn't.

13        Q.   I'll ask you now about the time you spoke to VG-13 shortly after

14     the Pionirska Street fire.  Did she -- did she identify to you Milan

15     Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and Mitar Vasiljevic at that time shortly after the

16     fire?

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Don't answer.  Mr. Cepic.  No, don't answer yet.

18     Let us hear Mr. Cepic.

19             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I think that we already have

20     these answers in direct examination, as far as I remember.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The point being made is that the evidence is

22     redundant, Mr. Cole.

23             MR. COLE:  Yes.  I won't pursue that any further.  It was -- it

24     was referred to again, from memory, during the cross-examination.  Yes,

25     thank you, sir.

Page 928

 1        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, when you provided the names of the perpetrators of

 2     the Pionirska fire in your statement of the 12th of May, 2000, and in

 3     your prior testimony in the other trial, who was the person who had told

 4     you the names of the perpetrators?

 5        A.   That was Witness VG-013 and also my father told me directly by

 6     giving their full names.

 7        Q.   How many times did your father tell you the names of the

 8     perpetrators?

 9        A.   Look, in a casual conversation you know how it is in families

10     when someone comes who hasn't seen him for a long time, you start these

11     debates within a family circle.  Five or six times.  Please don't ask me

12     that.  This is irrelevant.  I'm here in front of you to tell you

13     everything.  Please do not tire me with some minor questions that are not

14     relevant for these proceedings.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, Witness, I have to tell you that whether a

16     question is relevant or not is a matter for the Chamber to determine.

17             Mr. Cole, you might think now that you have exhausted your

18     re-examination.

19             MR. COLE:  I have a few more matters, sir.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  A few matters.  Okay.  Let's move quickly.

21             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you, sir, Your Honour.

22        Q.   The document that has now been produced by the Defence bearing

23     the number -- in fact, it's now Exhibit 1D25, the list of 15 names of,

24     we'll say police officers, you referred to the stamp on that document.  I

25     wonder if that could be shown to you again, Exhibit 1D25.

Page 929

 1             Can you see that document in front of you, Mr. Kurspahic?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, did you say in answer to counsel's question that the stamp

 4     on that document was not in use by the police in June in 1992?

 5        A.   Yes, that's what I said.  It wasn't in use.

 6             MR. ALARID:  Mischaracter --

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

 8             MR. ALARID:  I would object at this time to mischaracterisation

 9     of the evidence.  I believe he left April of 1992, and he wouldn't have

10     had personal knowledge as to a stamp in June of 1992.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole.

12             MR. COLE:  I'll ask the question again, sir.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

14             MR. COLE:

15        Q.   The stamp in the document, was that stamp in use at the time that

16     you last saw a police document in 1992, and was it April?

17        A.   No.  You can establish precisely when the stamp of the Republika

18     Srpska or the Visegrad municipality was designed.  One can establish that

19     quite precisely.

20        Q.   I just wonder if you can assist us personally.  Was the stamp on

21     that document in use in April 1992 when you last saw active police

22     documents?

23        A.   No, it wasn't.

24        Q.   What type of stamp was in use on police documents, let's say in

25     April 1992, and how would that type of stamp differ from the one in front

Page 930

 1     of you?

 2        A.   As far as the stamp is concerned, it maintained the same round

 3     shape.  However, we had two in our police administration.  The larger one

 4     was smaller than this one, and the smaller one was used to cancel some

 5     documents inside the police administration, whereas the larger one was

 6     put on all official documents that the police issued.

 7        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  Now, counsel for Mr. Sredoje Lukic asked you

 8     about the good relationship that you had with Sredoje Lukic as a police

 9     colleague.  Do you recall that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So accordingly, you would have had -- you would have no motive to

12     tell lies about Sredoje Lukic.

13        A.   I wouldn't even think about it, people.  He knows I'm not lying.

14     He's here with us.  Please, if there's anything to be clarified in front

15     of this highly esteemed Court, let us clarify the details.  I volunteered

16     to be an unprotected witness so that I can be face-to-face with him.  I

17     have a moral obligation to say the truth and nothing but the truth.  He

18     knows very well that I didn't add even a single comma.

19        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, you were asked by counsel whether you would agree

20     with him that VG-13 and VG-18 did not know Sredoje Lukic.  Do you recall

21     that question?

22        A.   I never heard anything of the sort.  They should have known him.

23     I don't know about that.  If they ever appear here, you will have to ask

24     them.  There were opportunities for them because Sredoje Lukic was a

25     publicly known figure who was everywhere around the municipality.  I

Page 931

 1     don't know about Milan, whether he was in Serbia or not.  I don't know

 2     whether they knew him, but there were some victims that went to school

 3     with Milan Lukic in Prelovo near Visegrad.  That is an elementary school.

 4        Q.   Now, you mentioned that Sredoje Lukic would also go out for

 5     patrols in the villages outside the town of Visegrad.

 6        A.   Yes, on many, many occasions.

 7        Q.   And how far afield?  How far from Visegrad would these villages

 8     be at the extreme?

 9        A.   There's one village further on named Zemljice and Rujiste.

10     Rujiste is the place where Sredoje Lukic was born, and it's about 30

11     kilometres due north towards Bratunac municipality.  That is the furthest

12     village.

13        Q.   All right.  Just a couple more questions for you.  The capture

14     and release of Sredoje Lukic in April of 1992, can I just ask you if you

15     noticed any signs of injuries or ill-treatment on Sredoje Lukic at that

16     time?

17        A.   I didn't.  It was for a very short time.  It didn't last more

18     than a minute.  I didn't have anyone's approval to do that.  I did it on

19     my own.  I stayed there for a short while.  I told him that he shouldn't

20     be afraid.  I said, "Amidzic, don't be afraid.  As soon as night falls

21     I'll come over and release you and transfer you," and that is -- "to

22     Visegrad," and that is how it happened.

23        Q.   And the last matter I wish to raise with you, Mr. Kurspahic, is

24     when you were talking with VG-13 when she came to Medjedja, from your

25     answers in cross-examination --

Page 932

 1             MR. CEPIC:  Excuse me.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

 3             MR. CEPIC:  I think that this question is not raised from the

 4     cross-examination.  We already discussed what VG-13 said to the witness,

 5     and that was in direct examination and again in redirect examination.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Tell us how it arises, Mr. Cole.

 7             MR. COLE:  Yes.  At page 55 of the transcript the note that I

 8     made, the witness was answering questions to the effect that she -- VG-13

 9     told certain facts to the witness but then, I think two days later told

10     the truth about it.  I just want to clarify with the witness what the

11     original details were that she told him and what the truth was that she

12     told him some two days later.  That's perfectly legitimate, in my

13     submission, and arises directly from cross-examination.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Ask the question.

16             MR. COLE:  Thank you, sir.

17        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, in answers to counsel you told the Court that

18     VG-13 told you some details about what had happened in relation to your

19     family and then two days later told you the truth about it.  My question

20     is this:  What was it that she told you on the first occasion, and what

21     was the truth that she told you two days later?  If you could just

22     explain that slowly to us, please.

23        A.   My first encounter with this person, VG-013, took place in

24     Medjedja sometime in the afternoon.  I can't recall the exact date.  I've

25     already said it must have been seven or eight days after the entrance of

Page 933

 1     the Uzice Corps into Visegrad.  She was wounded.  She had the left upper

 2     arm bandaged.  I asked this person under this pseudonym what had happened

 3     and this witness told me that the entire population of that village, the

 4     women, children, the elderly, from my were brought to Visegrad and then

 5     to Pionirska Street and that on that critical night they were set fire to

 6     by Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, Mitar Vasiljevic and some other men, and

 7     my family allegedly did not enter that house.  They went to Orlovo

 8     instead.  And sometime later that night, as I was thinking it all over, I

 9     realized it was impossible.  That story couldn't have been true.  Why

10     would they alone be set free, and then the next day she told me the whole

11     story of that event.  I can tell you what she told me, but I wrote it all

12     down in a statement that she wasn't able to sign because I didn't write

13     it in her presence, and I burnt that paper on the 31st of May, 1993, when

14     I left the free territory of Visegrad.

15        Q.   So on the first occasion, VG-13 told you that your family had

16     escaped the fire.  On the second occasion, she gave you the awful news

17     that in fact they had perished in the fire.

18        A.   Yes, but it's not a woman --

19             MR. CEPIC:  Leading question, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I agree.  We must bring this to an end now,

21     Mr. Cole.

22             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you, sir.  Then just one final matter.

23        Q.   Did VG-13 explain why she hadn't told you the truth on the first

24     occasion?

25        A.   She told me that she was afraid I would have a heart attack or

Page 934

 1     something and there were no doctors or anything.  And then she finally

 2     told me the next day.

 3        Q.   Yes, thank you, Mr. Kurspahic.

 4             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Cole.

 6             Witness, that concludes your evidence.  We thank you for coming

 7     to the Tribunal to give it.  You may now leave.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I just ask you

 9     for one thing, that Mr. Milan Lukic and Sredoje --

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, we have procedures that we follow --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm begging you.  Please allow me.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We have procedures that we follow and we have

13     listened attentively to your evidence, and you have played your part in

14     the procedure.  You may now leave.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm begging you, sir.  Let me

16     just say if they know --

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, it's not part of our procedure to have

18     statements from witnesses at this stage.  Please leave.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Next witness.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the next Witness is VG-38, and

22     Mr. Ossogo will be leading that witness.

23             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecution is

24     now calling the next witness, VG-038.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm told the witness is slightly inconvenienced

Page 935

 1     but will be here very shortly, so we'll wait.  Well, it's been suggested

 2     that we take the break now, and I think that's a good idea.  Half an

 3     hour.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

 8             Mr. Cepic.  Before the witness --

 9             MR. CEPIC:  I apologise.  Your Honour, this morning we received

10     information report from OTP, and this is actually confidential material.

11     Could we go to the private session, please, just for one minute.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 936











11  Pages 936-937 redacted. Private session.















Page 938

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 5             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 6                           Examination by Mr. Ossogo:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness VG-38.

 8        A.   Good afternoon.

 9        Q.   Do you feel well enough to answer my questions?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this witness was

12     granted protective measures following an order by the Trial Chamber on

13     the 24th of July, 2001.  This is the reason why I shall ask the usher to

14     give him a pseudonym sheet, which is the pseudonym that will be used

15     throughout his testimony.  It had been given by way of this order.

16        Q.   Witness, please look carefully at this sheet and tell me whether

17     you can see your name written on it.  Do not say your name, please.  Can

18     you see your name on this first sheet you have?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Is it also your date of birth?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Next I shall ask you to look at the second sheet.  There are

23     two -- there's another sheet after the first one.  Some names can be

24     found with pseudonyms.  If at any time throughout your testimony you want

25     to refer to one of the names during the examination-in-chief or

Page 939

 1     cross-examination by the Defence, please only use the pseudonyms you can

 2     see there.  Did you understand me?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Mr. President, after the witness has

 5     signed the pseudonym sheet we would like to ask for this to be tendered

 6     into evidence.

 7             Please sign, Witness.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be admitted as P43 under seal.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

10             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Witness VG-38, do you remember testifying in the Prosecution

12     versus Mitar Vasiljevic case on the 1st and 2nd of October, 2001?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   You arrived in The Hague this weekend.  Have you had an

15     opportunity to listen to your testimony again in a language you can

16     understand?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   To the best of your recollection is the testimony you have

19     listened to fair to what you said here before this Tribunal before?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecution would

22     like this document to be tendered into evidence.  This is the transcript

23     bearing exhibit -- 65 ter exhibit numbers 110 and 111.  These were --

24     this was evidence tendered in the Vasiljevic case through this witness.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

Page 940

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 110 will become Exhibit P44 under

 2     seal, and 111 will become Exhibit P45 under seal.

 3             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] The Prosecution also seeks to tender

 4     documents accompanying the statement made by Witness VG-038 on the 1st

 5     and 2nd of October, 2001.  They are 65 ter numbers 104, 105, 106, 107,

 6     108, and 109.

 7             Document 104 is an aerial photograph showing the town of

 8     Visegrad.  In the Vasiljevic trial, it had the exhibit number P17.1.

 9             Document 105 is an aerial photograph, a black and white

10     photograph, showing the town of Visegrad as marked by the witness.  In

11     the Vasiljevic trial it had Exhibit number P17.1.VG-38.

12             As to document 36, it is a coloured photograph of the Pionirska

13     Street showing the school next to the street and the creek that is

14     opposite the school.  It was identified and marked by the witness under

15     Exhibit number P17.114.VG-38.

16             As to document 107, it is a photograph showing Pionirska Street

17     and marked by the witness.  It's a black and white photograph.  In the

18     Vasiljevic case it had Exhibit number P17.3.VG-38.

19             Document 108 is a black and white photograph of the house

20     belonging to Mr. Adem Omeragic that -- in which was the fire, and the

21     photo was marked by the witness showing this house and another two houses

22     in which the Koritnik group had been put up.  This was document

23     P17.7.VG-38 in the Vasiljevic case.

24             Finally document 109 shows a series of photographs signed --

25     there is a signature in the photograph of Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic.  It was

Page 941

 1     P17.20.VG-38 in the Vasiljevic case.

 2             These were the documents attached to the testimony of Witness

 3     VG-038 in the Vasiljevic case which we would like to introduce into

 4     evidence further to Rule 92 ter following today's decision by the Trial

 5     Chamber.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the documents will become

 8     Exhibits P46, P47, P48, P49, P50 and P51 under seal.

 9             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] We would like to make a suggestion

10     to the Trial Chamber with regard to some of these documents, the black

11     and white photographs.  The quality is not very good.  Back then we did

12     not have any sophisticated electronic means such as the ones we have

13     today at our disposal.

14             These are documents -- I'm thinking of document 107 in

15     particular.  It shows Pionirska Street and was marked by the witness.  It

16     was a black and white photograph.  Just for the sake of clarity for the

17     Trial Chamber to have a better view of this black and white photograph,

18     we would like to offer a colour photograph that will be given to the

19     registry so that the Trial Chamber can compare both photos and have a

20     better idea of the location of the building.

21             We also have document 108.  It, too, is a photograph showing

22     Mr. Adem Omeragic's house as marked by the witness where there was the

23     fire.  There, too, we would like to offer an unmarked photo, a colour

24     photo, so that the Trial Chamber can better see the photograph.

25             These are our two suggestions we would like to make to the Trial

Page 942

 1     Chamber for practical purposes, and the Prosecution could have them

 2     uploaded electronically.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 4             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Witness --

 6             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Are we now in open session or in

 7     private session?

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We're in open session.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just to clarify, we were in open session when

11     you made your inquiry.

12             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Could we please move into private

13     session.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

15             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16        [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber] 

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 943

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24        Q.   To go from Koritnik to Visegrad, which is the closest village

25     after Koritnik?

Page 944

 1        A.   Greben village.

 2        Q.   Did you know a person by the name of Milorad Lipovak in that

 3     village -- or Lipovac?

 4        A.   I do.

 5        Q.   What was his trade?  What did he do in that village?

 6        A.   I think he was working in Varda company.

 7        Q.   Was Milorad Lipovac involved in this group of being escorted from

 8     Koritnik, the group you were in that was escorted in 1992?

 9        A.   Yes.  He took us to the Red Cross.

10        Q.   What did he tell you as he was escorting you?

11        A.   Well, that we had to leave the village, that we were no longer

12     safe there.

13        Q.   Was he armed?

14        A.   Yes.  He had an automatic weapon.

15        Q.   What was his ethnicity?

16        A.   Serb.

17        Q.   When you arrived at the Red Cross, as you said, was he the one

18     that led you to the Pionirska Street?

19        A.   No.  It was Mitar Vasiljevic.

20        Q.   Did you know Mitar Vasiljevic?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   How did you know him?

23        A.   He used to work as a waiter.

24        Q.   Where did he work as a waiter?

25        A.   In Panos and in Vilina Vlas Hotel.

Page 945

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4        Q.   Could you tell us when Mr. Vasiljevic took over from Milorad

 5     Lipovac where he led you, where he led you to?

 6        A.   To Pionirska Street, to the house of Jusuf Memic.

 7        Q.   Were you taken to one or several houses?

 8        A.   We were in Jusuf Memic's house, and we were in Mujo Memic's

 9     house, which is the house across the road from the first one.  There were

10     seven of us in Mujo Memic's house.

11        Q.   You said that there were about seven of you in that house.  Can

12     you tell us whether there was any connection, family connection, between

13     Jusuf and Mujo Memic?

14        A.   Yes.  They were father and son.

15        Q.   Who was the father and who was the son?

16        A.   Jusuf was the father.  Mujo was his son.

17        Q.   You said that there were seven of you in Mujo Memic's house; is

18     that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Could you tell us who you were with in that house?

21        A.   VG-13 and the others who had burned.  Do you want their names?

22        Q.   Well, if you remember the names you can give us the names.

23        A.   Hana Kurspahic, Kurspahic Safa, Kurspahic Medo, Kurspahic Medina,

24     Redzo Memisevic, Fazila Memisevic.  That's it.

25        Q.   In the second house, Jusuf Memic's house, how many people were

Page 946

 1     there that belonged to the same ethnicity as you?

 2        A.   There were about 60 of us.

 3        Q.   At some point in time did Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic do

 4     something in one way or another?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   What did they do?

 7        A.   They asked for money and gold.

 8        Q.   When you say "they," you do mean Milan and Sredoje Lukic, don't

 9     you?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did you agree to their terms?

12        A.   Yes.  We gave them everything we had.

13        Q.   When did this happen?

14        A.   In the evening, at 1700 hours.

15        Q.   And at that time you were in Jusuf Memic and Mujo Memic's house.

16     All the Muslims were in those houses then?

17        A.   No.  When they asked for money and gold, we were -- had all been

18     transferred to Jusuf Memic's house.

19        Q.   When Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic obtain the gold and the

20     jewellery from you as you have described, what did they do after that?

21        A.   They would search us, looking for it… but not Milan, Milan was

22     in front of the house, Milan and Mitar Vasiljevic.  Susnjar Milan aka

23     Lalco and Sredoje Lukic were in the house.

24        Q.   I'd like to talk about Milan Susnjar now.  He was the third

25     person other than Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic.  Were there any other

Page 947

 1     people there?

 2        A.   Milan Lukic; Sredoje Lukic; Mitar Vasiljevic; and Milan Susnjar,

 3     aka Laco.

 4        Q.   I'd like to spend some time talking about Milan Lukic and Sredoje

 5     Lukic.  Let's first talk about Milan Lukic.  Did you know him before

 6     these events occurred, these events that took place in the Pionirska

 7     Street?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us when you discovered that it was him?

10        A.   There was some people who went to school with him, so through

11     them I learnt his identity.

12        Q.   Could you tell us who these people were, those people that gave

13     you this information?  If these people are protected people, please just

14     give us a pseudonym.

15        A.   VG-101, and Sajmija Kurspahic.

16        Q.   These are the two people who told you that it was Milan Lukic; is

17     that right?

18        A.   Yes.  There were some other people who knew him as well.

19        Q.   Do you know these other people who knew Milan Lukic?  Could you

20     give us their names, and if these people are protected, just give us

21     their pseudonym, please.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Are we still in private session?  Do we need to

23     be in private session, Mr. Ossogo?

24             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that we need

25     not remain in private session.  Thank you.


Page 948

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Public session.

 2                           [Open session]

 3             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Let me repeat my question, VG-38.  You said that two people who

 5     were with you that were of the same ethnicity as you whose names and

 6     pseudonym you gave us, outside these two people -- other than these two

 7     people, I was just about to ask you did you know these two people who

 8     identified Milan Lukic or who told other people in the room that it was

 9     Milan Lukic?

10        A.   There was Jasmina Vila, and there was some other people who said

11     that, but I couldn't see them because there was so many of us in the

12     room.

13        Q.   Did you know Jasmina Vila?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Regarding the previous question, "the people

15     who were with you and who came from Koritnik," and not "of the same

16     ethnicity," interpreter's correction.

17             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Do you know what became of this person after the incident that

19     occurred on the Pionirska Street?

20        A.   She perished in the fire in the house where we were set on fire.

21        Q.   I'd like now to move on to the identification of Sredoje Lukic.

22     Did you know Sredoje Lukic before the 14th of June, 1992, which is when

23     the Pionirska Street --

24        A.   I used to --

25        Q.   -- and --

Page 949

 1        A.   -- see him on the street.  He was an official working in

 2     Visegrad.

 3        Q.   Do you know what position he held in Visegrad, which is where you

 4     saw him?

 5        A.   He was a policeman.

 6        Q.   Did you see him in a uniform since you said he was a policeman?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8        Q.   Did you meet him often?

 9        A.   Well, on my way to school and back I used to see him in the

10     street.

11        Q.   When you say when you left school, when you went to school, which

12     school do you mean, the one you mentioned earlier, the Vuk Karadzic

13     school?

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   Did you meet Sredoje Lukic before the incident around the

16     Pionirska Street or in your school?

17             MR. CEPIC:  Leading question, Your Honour.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not only --

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, no.  Don't answer yet.

20             How is that leading, Mr. Cepic?

21             MR. CEPIC:  All references are give to the witness just to say

22     yes.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Reformulate the question.

24             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Witness VG-38, you went to the Vuk Karadzic school, didn't you?

Page 950

 1     Could you tell us where you came across Sredoje Lukic?

 2        A.   I was walking across the Rzav bridge, and the police station was

 3     nearby.  This is where I saw him most often.

 4        Q.   How far would this bridge be from the Pionirska area,

 5     approximately?

 6        A.   You mean the distance between the Rzav bridge and Pionirska

 7     Street?

 8        Q.   Approximately, yes.

 9        A.   Well, up to 350 metres, because Pionirska Street stretches up to

10     one kilometre.

11        Q.   Do you know any people or members of your family who were

12     colleagues of Mr. Sredoje Lukic?

13        A.   Huso Kurspahic.

14             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just for a short while

15     may we move into private session.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

17         [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber] 

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 951

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7        Q.   Witness VG-38, since you have provided us some information which

 8     enabled you to identify Mr. Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic, this

 9     information which you provided in addition to your prior statement dated

10     the 2nd of October, 2001, I would now like you to turn your head either

11     to the right or to the left and tell us whether you recognise Milan Lukic

12     or Sredoje Lukic.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

14             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have already put

15     forward an objection in principle to this method of identification, and I

16     would like to reiterate that.  Thank you.

17             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We have in mind the objection you've made,

20     Mr. Cepic.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Without it

23     having an impact on your decision, I would like to specify that when

24     these two accused were identified by Witness VG-115 you said, Your

25     Honour, that in light of your discretion you maintained that identifying

Page 952

 1     the accused during a trial like this one is extremely important.  In

 2     essence, it is very important.  You can't exclude one identification

 3     method from the other.  I think identifying in the courtroom is extremely

 4     important.  I'm submitting this so that you can weigh all of the material

 5     that has been presented to you.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Please proceed.

 7             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   VG-38, do you remember the question I put to you?

 9        A.   Sredoje Lukic is on the left.  Milan Lukic is on the right -- I

10     mean, the opposite.

11        Q.   When you say to the left, could you describe him to us, please,

12     the person and the clothes he's wearing?  First describe Milan Lukic to

13     us, please.

14        A.   Milan Lukic is on the left.  Sredoje Lukic is on the right.

15        Q.   Could you show him to us with your finger, please?

16        A.   Right and left.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And your evidence is that you -- you knew them

18     before?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Sredoje.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  You knew Sredoje before but not Milan?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 953

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Ossogo.

22             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23             I would like it to be recorded on the transcript that Witness

24     VG-38 recognised and identified Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic.

25             MR. ALARID:  And I would object to the identification of Milan

Page 954

 1     Lukic.  It would be by exclusion only.  I don't think a proper foundation

 2     was laid as to the identification of Milan Lukic.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

 4             MR. CEPIC:  And, Your Honour, if I may add, during the

 5     identification witness said on the left, then on the right, and I was

 6     quite confused about that identification.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It seems to me that ultimately was clarified.

 8     Ultimately I think it will be for the Trial Chamber to assess all the

 9     evidence and to determine what weight to attach to the witness's

10     identification of the accused.

11             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] May I proceed, Your Honour?

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, yes.

13             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Witness VG-38, you described in detail what happened in Jusuf

15     Memic's house.  Can you confirm that after Mr. Jusuf Memic's house, after

16     you were taken there, where were you taken afterwards?

17        A.   They transferred us to the house of Adem Omeragic.

18        Q.   When you say you were transferred to Adem Omeragic's house, who

19     took you there?

20        A.   The same four men that I named.

21        Q.   Could you give us their names again, please, for the sake of the

22     record?

23        A.   Mitar Vasiljevic, Sredoje Lukic, Milan Lukic, and Milan Susnjar

24     aka Lalco.

25        Q.   What happened in Adem Omeragic's house?

Page 955

 1        A.   At around 10.30 in the evening they set us on fire in the house

 2     of Adem Omeragic.

 3        Q.   The entire group of Koritnik you were part of, were all these

 4     people in that house?

 5        A.   Yes.  There were some other people -- or, rather, women that were

 6     brought there from Pionirska Street.

 7        Q.   Can you describe to us in addition to what you've told us already

 8     in your testimony in the Vasiljevic case, what did Milan Lukic and

 9     Sredoje Lukic do, each in turn?

10        A.   I couldn't see because we were locked up in the house, but I do

11     know that they set us on fire and that there were shots fired at the

12     house where we were.

13        Q.   VG-38, today you are alive.  How can you explain to the Bench in

14     addition to the details you have provided already?  Can you tell the

15     Bench how you managed to escape from this house where you were locked up

16     with all the people from Koritnik?

17        A.   God only knows how I managed to do that.  I managed to escape

18     because VG-18 was the first one to break the windowpane and to jump out.

19     Then I jumped out, as well as VG-84.  As for the others, I didn't know

20     how they survived.  I didn't see, because I didn't dare linger any

21     longer.  Both these persons that I named were shooting, shooting at the

22     house in which we were and which was set on fire.

23        Q.   You told us that you were amongst others VG-013.  Do you know

24     what happened to this person?

25        A.   I didn't know until the fall of Zepa.  I know that she was

Page 956

 1     wounded in that house when I saw her, but I don't know anything relating

 2     to what was before that.

 3        Q.   Were you in Zepa?

 4        A.   No.  I was in Zenica.  When Zepa fell I moved to Zenica.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ossogo, we'll take the break now and

 6     resume --

 7             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] I was just about finished.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, please finish if you're just about to

 9     finish.

10             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   In addition to VG-84 and the other person you mentioned, do you

12     know if other people survived?  Can you give us their names and

13     pseudonyms, please?

14        A.   VG-13, VG-018, VG-078, VG-084, VG-101, and Hasib Kurspahic, and

15     Edhem Kurspahic.  These are the people who managed to escape from the

16     house.

17             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was the last

18     question I had for this witness, and I would like to refer to the

19     testimony that this witness also gave in the Vasiljevic case.  Thank you,

20     Your Honour.

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 957

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day

10                           of September, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.