Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2287

 1                           Thursday, 25 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.51 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, the witness.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Zehra Turjacanin.

 7             Your Honour, I see Mr. Dieckmann is standing.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Dieckmann.

 9             MR. DIECKMANN:  Your Honour, just a very short matters for the

10     record.  Regarding exhibit 2D16, this document was released under the

11     number 2D01-0707.  This is the wrong number, and just for the record the

12     correct number for this document would be 2D03-0003.  That's all.  Thank

13     you very much.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you very much.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16                           WITNESS:  ZEHRA TURJACANIN

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.  Please

19     make the declaration.  Please read it.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may sit.

23             And you may begin, Mr. Groome.

24             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           Examination by Mr. Groome:

Page 2288

 1        Q.   What is your name?  Can you hear me?

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm not sure if I'm the only person,

 3     but I heard French translation through my headset, and I'm not sure the

 4     witness is able to hear.  Is there a technical problem?

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see.

 6             MR. GROOME:

 7        Q.   Can you hear me?  Ms. Turjacanin, can you hear me?

 8        A.   Yes, I can hear you.

 9        Q.   Can you please tell us your full name.

10        A.   I am Zehra Turjacanin.

11        Q.   When were you born?

12        A.   3/12/1962.

13        Q.   And where were you born?

14        A.   At Turjak.

15        Q.   And where is that located?  What country is that located in?

16        A.   It is Opsinobica [as interpreted] in the municipality of Visegrad

17     in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18        Q.   If I could kindly ask the usher to please show the witness a

19     pseudonym sheet.  The witness is testifying in open session but will

20     refer to someone who has protective measures.

21             Ms. Turjacanin, I would ask you to look at the piece of paper the

22     usher is now showing you.  It contains the name of a person.  Without

23     saying the name of this person, do you know this person?

24        A.   Yes, I know this person.  VG-38.

25        Q.   This person has protective measures and is referred to as VG-32.

Page 2289

 1     How did you know this person prior to the war?

 2        A.   It's the husband of my best friend.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would now tender that pseudonym sheet

 4     as an exhibit.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Admitted.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit number P131, Your Honours.

 7             MR. GROOME:

 8        Q.   Ms. Turjacanin, it will eventually be placed before you as a

 9     reminder and I would ask at any time during your testimony if you need to

10     refer to this person that you refer to them by their pseudonym VG-32.

11             My next question to you is did you attend secondary school?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Where was that?

14        A.   At Visegrad.

15        Q.   Now, drawing your attention to the spring of 1992, where were you

16     living at that time?

17        A.   At Nabikot [as interpreted].

18        Q.   Do you remember the address?

19        A.   19 Bilovanovic [phoen] number 19.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

21             MR. CEPIC:  My apologies for interrupting but it is a wrong

22     number on this pseudonym sheet.  It has to be VG-32, not 38.

23             MR. GROOME:  I'm sorry if there's a mistake.  If I could ask that

24     it be amended to reflect VG-32.  I apologise if there is a typographical

25     error.

Page 2290

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, let that be done.

 2             MR. GROOME:

 3        Q.   The house that you've just mentioned, did it have a new section

 4     as well as an older section?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   How many floors were in your house?

 7        A.   There were three floors if you count the ground floor.

 8        Q.   The top floor, did it have a balcony?

 9        A.   Yes, there was one.

10        Q.   When standing on the balcony of your house in Bikavac, what could

11     you see before you?

12        A.   I could see people from Visegrad.

13        Q.   Were you able to see the centre of the town?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Were you able to see the new bridge in the town?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   During the month of June 1992, did you look out over the -- that

18     area from the balcony after night had fallen?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   How often?

21        A.   Practically all evening.

22        Q.   What did you see and hear during the month of June from your

23     balcony in Bikavac?

24        A.   Every evening I could see Elevir Cuk [as interpreted] who was

25     arriving on the bridge, and at a given moment when a car came on the

Page 2291

 1     bridge, the lights went off, and that moment Elevir Cuk and men -- we

 2     could hear screams and shots and finally the noise of bodies falling in

 3     the water.

 4        Q.   During the month of June can you estimate how many nights that

 5     you were up in the balcony that you made such observations?

 6        A.   Every evening.  We couldn't sleep.  Every evening I was on my

 7     balcony and I was looking what was going on.

 8        Q.   Prior to the war did you know a person by the name of Milan

 9     Lukic?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   How did you know him?

12        A.   At school.  We knew each other at school.  We were schoolmates.

13        Q.   Did you and him go to the same school?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Were you in the same classes as him?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Were you in the same year as him?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Can you describe what year you were in at the time you were in

20     the same school as Milan Lukic?

21        A.   He was in first year and I was in the fourth year.

22        Q.   And is this in the secondary school?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did you have a sibling that also attended that school?  Did you

25     have a brother or sister who also attended that school?

Page 2292

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Was it a brother or a sister?

 3        A.   It was a brother.

 4        Q.   What was his name?

 5        A.   Dzevad Turjacanin.

 6        Q.   And do you know what year he was born?

 7        A.   1968.

 8        Q.   Do you know whether Dzevad Turjacanin also knew Milan Lukic?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   How did your brother know Milan Lukic?

11        A.   Because they were in the same class at school.

12        Q.   Did your brother ever speak about who he shared his classroom

13     table with?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Who did he share his classroom table with?

16        A.   With Milan Lukic.

17        Q.   Now, during the course of a school day, were there breaks between

18     classes?

19        A.   Yes.  Every 45 minutes there was a change of class.

20        Q.   Approximately how many breaks in total would there be in any

21     given school day?

22        A.   Five.

23        Q.   What would students do during these breaks?

24        A.   Eat a sandwich, drink something, smoke a cigarette.

25        Q.   Students who used to smoke during the breaks, where would they

Page 2293

 1     smoke?

 2        A.   Behind the school.

 3        Q.   Did you yourself smoke while you were at the school?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you ever see Milan Lukic smoking while you were smoking

 6     during class breaks?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can you estimate for us how many times per week or per month you

 9     would have seen Milan Lukic smoking a cigarette while you were smoking a

10     cigarette?

11        A.   I could say perhaps once -- once a week.

12        Q.   Did there come a time in June of 1992 when a group of armed men

13     arrived in front of your house?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you remember the exact date of when they arrived?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Can I ask you to summarise what happened when these men arrived?

18        A.   At a given moment they came from everywhere, and they started

19     shooting.

20        Q.   What did you do when this started?

21        A.   Since they were shooting from everywhere, we lay down on the

22     floor, on the ground.

23        Q.   At this point in time was your brother Dzevad still in Visegrad?

24        A.   I didn't understand the question.

25        Q.   During June of 1992, was your brother Dzevad still in Visegrad,

Page 2294

 1     in Bikavac?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Where precisely was he?

 4        A.   He was at Nova Lamazon [as interpreted] on the ground floor in

 5     the block.

 6        Q.   So are you saying that he was in the house?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us precisely where in the house he was?

 9        A.   At the ground floor.

10        Q.   Was he hiding in any way?

11        A.   Yes.  Yes.

12        Q.   Can you please explain?

13        A.   With the blocks of concrete we had barricaded the ground floor.

14        Q.   When he was hiding in this -- in this manner, was he able to get

15     out of where he was hiding without assistance?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Was there anyone else hiding with him?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did there come a time in June of 1992 that you saw Milan Lukic in

20     the Bikavac area?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Where were you when you saw Milan Lukic?

23        A.   I was at my neighbour's.

24        Q.   What is the name of your neighbour?

25        A.   Dzemila Kahriman.

Page 2295

 1        Q.   And when you say your neighbour, how far was Dzemila Kahriman's

 2     house from your house?

 3        A.   About a hundred metres.

 4        Q.   What were you doing at her house?

 5        A.   We were having coffee.

 6        Q.   Who else was present?

 7        A.   A few other neighbours, ladies.

 8        Q.   What time of the day was this?

 9        A.   At the end of the afternoon.

10        Q.   Was it still light out?

11        A.   I didn't understand.

12        Q.   Was there still sunlight out?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did there come a time when someone came and spoke with yourself

15     and the other women having coffee?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Who was that?

18        A.   It was Milan Lukic himself.

19        Q.   Can you please describe the circumstances around Milan Lukic

20     speaking with yourself and the other women?

21        A.   He appeared behind the house.  He saluted us, greeted us

22     politely.  He said, "I have come to see how you're faring, and don't be

23     worried.  Don't be worried.  I will protect you."

24        Q.   Did you offer him coffee?

25        A.   No, I didn't.

Page 2296

 1        Q.   Did one of the women offer him coffee?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 5             MR. ALARID:  At this time I mean I've been -- you know I

 6     understand the foundational nature of sometimes getting a witness into

 7     testimony, but it is done in a leading manner with always placing a fact

 8     in the question that sort of leads the witness.  I believe that the

 9     nature of the questioning is leading.

10             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I don't believe I've asked any leading

11     questions.  Leading questions suggest an answer to a witness.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, did one of the women offer him coffee.

13     That's suggesting coffee and yes as the answer.  So that would be leading

14     but I don't know if that's a matter of any controversy.

15             MR. ALARID:  Well, the reason being is oftentimes the direct exam

16     is also to test the recollection of the witness.  That's why the

17     questions are left open.  If the Prosecution always fills in the detail

18     which it cues the witness and therefore it does not test the independent

19     recollection of the witness.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Therefore, Mr. Groome, we will apply the rule

21     very strictly, and please avoid any leading questions.

22             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Was Milan Lukic offered anything by anyone?

24        A.   The lady offered coffee to Milan Lukic, and he refused.

25        Q.   How was he dressed?

Page 2297

 1        A.   Military uniform.

 2        Q.   Was he armed?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   How far away were you from him?

 5        A.   About a metre.

 6        Q.   Did you have a clear view of his face?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did you recognise him at that point in time?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Who did you recognise him to be?

11        A.   Milan Lukic.

12        Q.   How long did it take you to recognise him?

13        A.   Immediately.

14        Q.   Where were you working in the spring of 1992?

15        A.   Visegrad.  In Alhos, Visegrad.

16        Q.   And what kind of enterprise was that?

17        A.   It was women's clothing.

18        Q.   And what was your position there?  What was your work there?

19        A.   A seamstress.

20        Q.   How did you get back and forth from work?

21        A.   On foot.  I walked.

22        Q.   Did you ever see Milan Lukic at the place where you worked?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   When?

25        A.   In June, an afternoon in June.

Page 2298

 1        Q.   Was it before or after the time you saw him when you were having

 2     coffee?

 3        A.   It was after the coffee.

 4        Q.   Do you know why he came to the factory?

 5        A.   He came to get his neighbour lady.

 6        Q.   Do you recall her name?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Do you recall her ethnicity?

 9        A.   She was a Muslim.

10        Q.   What time of the day was this?

11        A.   Around 1800.  6.00 p.m.

12        Q.   Can you describe the lighting witness in the factory at that

13     time?

14        A.   It was a very good lighting because you need that to be able to

15     sew.

16        Q.   Do you recall how he was dressed?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you please describe that for us?

19        A.   He was in a black suit with black coat also.

20        Q.   Was the woman that he was looking for present in the factory?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   How long did he remain there?

23        A.   Very little.

24        Q.   Was there a time in June that one of your sisters described a

25     conversation that she had with someone?

Page 2299

 1        A.   Yes.  She came from the town, and she told us that she had seen

 2     Milan Lukic.

 3        Q.   What's the name of this sister?

 4        A.   Dzehva.

 5        Q.   When did she tell you that she had this conversation with Milan

 6     Lukic?

 7        A.   When she came at home she said that she had seen Milan Lukic and

 8     she had spoken to him.  They had spoken.

 9        Q.   Are you able to tell us what month this occurred?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Did she tell you where precisely they had this conversation?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Where was that?

14        A.   At the old bridge of the Drina, on the Drina.

15        Q.   Did she tell you what was said during the course of the

16     conversation?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you please tell us what you recall about what she told you?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Could you please tell us now.

21        A.   He asked him where is your brother Dzevad, he asked from her.

22        Q.   Did she say that he asked for your brother by his name?

23        A.   Yes, that's precisely the case.

24        Q.   I now want to draw your attention to the latter part of June 1992

25     to the Bikavac area of Visegrad.  Can I ask you to describe for us what

Page 2300

 1     was the atmosphere like during that period of time?

 2        A.   It was a very strange atmosphere.  Things were always happening.

 3        Q.   When you say "things," could I ask you to be more specific.  What

 4     types of things were always happening?

 5        A.   Pressure being exerted.  Well, we were anticipating or expecting

 6     that things were going to happen.  There was fear.  It was just -- just a

 7     very strange atmosphere and there was a lot of fear.

 8        Q.   Did you a person by the name of Enver Subasic?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   How did you know him?

11        A.   He was my neighbour.

12        Q.   Is he alive today?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Can you tell us what you know about his death?

15        A.   Well, a group of men were brought by Milan Lukic and they burnt

16     everything.

17        Q.   Were you -- did you personally witness his death?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can I ask you to tell us where you were when you witnessed his

20     death?

21        A.   I was on a path about ten metres away from my house, and the men

22     brought Mr. Subasic, and a bit later they set the fire and people were

23     running in all directions, and the men were shouting at them.

24        Q.   You are referring to a fire.  Can you be specific about what

25     exactly you are referring to?

Page 2301

 1        A.   I didn't quite understand the question.

 2        Q.   You've referred to a fire.  Let me ask you, you've said that you

 3     personally witnessed his death.  How did Enver Subasic die?

 4        A.   Well, when you douse someone with fire and set fire --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry, the interpreter --

 6             THE WITNESS:  -- when you douse someone with gas and you set fire

 7     to him, then of course he burns.

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   Was he the only person who died in that way that day that you

10     witnessed?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Who else?

13        A.   An elderly man, Deda Musevic [as interpreted].

14        Q.   And did you also personally witness his death?

15        A.   Yes.  He burned at the same time as Enver Subasic.

16        Q.   Can you tell us precisely where these two men were burned?

17        A.   Negrad [phoen].  In town.

18        Q.   Where is that in relation to your house?

19        A.   Two hundred and fifty metres away.

20        Q.   I want to now call your attention to the very end of June and a

21     very significant event occurred.  Can I ask you to tell us as best you

22     recall the date that this event occurred.

23        A.   Very well.

24        Q.   What was the date?

25        A.   The 27th of June, 1992.

Page 2302

 1        Q.   Do you remember what day of the week it was?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you recall if there was a holiday that day?

 4        A.   Yes.  It was a Saturday and a holiday.

 5        Q.   What holiday was it?

 6        A.   It's an Orthodox holiday.  It's called Vidovdan, St. Vitus.

 7        Q.   Do you know whether or not your Serb neighbours celebrated on

 8     this day?

 9        A.   Yes, they always did.

10        Q.   How did they celebrate on this particular Vidovdan day?

11        A.   That I couldn't really say.  I don't know.

12        Q.   Do you know whether they remained in the Bikavac area or whether

13     they left the Bikavac area?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And what did they do?

16        A.   They left.

17        Q.   Do you know where they went to?

18        A.   They went into the mountains that were between Visegrad and

19     Sarajevo, Umero [phoen].

20        Q.   What was the weather like at that day?

21        A.   There was some rain, but there was also sunshine occasionally.

22        Q.   Where did you spend the day?

23        A.   I was at home.

24        Q.   Can you tell us all of the people who were with you in your home

25     that day?

Page 2303

 1        A.   On that day in my home I was with my mother Djulka, my two

 2     sisters, two children of my sister, my sister-in-law and her son, as well

 3     as another lady with her son.

 4        Q.   I want to make sure that the record records the names of the

 5     family members you were with, so could I ask you to tell us the name of

 6     your mother.

 7        A.   My mother's name [Realtime transcript read in error

 8     "neighbouring"] was Djulka.  Djulka.

 9        Q.   You've mentioned your sisters.  Can I ask you to identify them

10     each individually.  What was the name of your first sister?

11        A.   My older sister was called Dzehva, and my younger sister's name

12     was Aida.

13             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  I suppose she said my mother's name is

14     Djulka, not neighbouring.

15             MR. GROOME:  Yes, I believe that is what she said.  I'd ask the

16     record be corrected.

17        Q.   Your sister Dzehva, was she married?

18        A.   Yes, she was.

19        Q.   What was her married name?

20        A.   Tufekcic.

21        Q.   And what were her children's names?

22        A.   I'm sorry, I didn't quite grasp the question.

23        Q.   What were the names of her children?

24        A.   Their names were Elma and Esad.

25        Q.   And could you please tell us the age of the children in 1992.

Page 2304

 1        A.   Elma was six years old and the little boy was about a year and a

 2     half.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, when the witness came to The Hague she

 4     brought a picture of her sister and one of her children.  It is not on

 5     the 65 ter list.  We did disclose this it yesterday evening.  I wonder

 6     whether I'd be permitted to show the picture.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask ERN 04249120 be called up on the screen.

 9        Q.   I'd ask you to look in front of you.  Can you see a -- [French on

10     English channel] on the screen in front of you?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   Who is depicted in that photograph?

13        A.   Well, I see my sister, her little daughter Elma, and her husband.

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I would tender this

15     exhibit.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  It is admitted as Exhibit number P132, Your

18     Honours.

19             MR. GROOME:

20        Q.   You've mentioned that your sister-in-law was present.  Can I ask

21     you to please give us her full name.

22        A.   Sada Turjacanin.

23        Q.   Did she have children?

24        A.   Yes.  She had a son.

25        Q.   What was his name?

Page 2305

 1        A.   His name was Selmir.

 2        Q.   And how old was he?

 3        A.   Seven years old.

 4        Q.   You also mentioned another person.  Was there another person

 5     present in your house that day?

 6        A.   Yes, that's right.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us who that person was?

 8        A.   Well, I don't remember her name, but it was another lady, a

 9     neighbour, a neighbour of Milan Lukic, and she was there with her

10     daughter.

11        Q.   Where precisely was this -- this woman from?  The name the area,

12     if you know.

13        A.   The name is Rujiste.

14        Q.   Did you know the name of her daughter?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   What was her age, if you recall?

17        A.   Approximately 16 or 17.

18        Q.   Now, you've mentioned your sister Aida.  Did Aida have a

19     disability?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Can I ask you to simply briefly tell us what was the nature of

22     Aida's disability?

23        A.   Well, she had a slight disability, mental disability.

24        Q.   How would you describe your relationship with Aida?

25        A.   Well, I was her big sister, and I tried to do my best to always

Page 2306

 1     take care of her and take care of her disability.

 2        Q.   The afternoon of this day what were these people doing in your

 3     house?

 4        A.   They were sleeping.

 5        Q.   Did you leave the house at all this day?

 6        A.   I'm sorry, I didn't understand.

 7        Q.   Did you ever leave your house this day?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9        Q.   Where did you go?

10        A.   I went across the street to visit my neighbour.

11        Q.   What was the name of this neighbour?

12        A.   Sena Subasic.

13        Q.   Did there come a time when a colleague of yours from work visited

14     you that day?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   What was the name of this person?

17        A.   Milan Lucic.

18        Q.   What was this person's -- what was this person's ethnicity?

19        A.   He was Serb.

20        Q.   Do you have an opinion about this man's character?

21        A.   He is a good man.

22        Q.   Did he have a conversation with you this day?

23        A.   Yes.  Yes, we had a talk.

24        Q.   Can you tell us what he said to you?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2307

 1        Q.   What did he say?

 2        A.   He said, "What are you waiting for?  Why haven't you left yet,

 3     because surely bad things are going to happen."

 4        Q.   Can you describe his emotional state during this conversation?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Please do so.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could we possibly get the witness to move a

 8     little bit closer to her microphone so that we could hear her better?

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

10             MR. GROOME:

11        Q.   Can you please describe his emotional state during this

12     conversation?

13        A.   He was very emotional and extremely sad.  He was even crying.

14        Q.   How long did he stay?

15        A.   Not very long.

16        Q.   Did there come a time when you left Sena's house to return to

17     your own home?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you remember what time of the day that was?

20        A.   It was in the evening.

21        Q.   What did you do upon your return home?

22        A.   I went out onto the balcony to smoke a cigarette.

23        Q.   While you were smoking that cigarette did anything unusual occur?

24        A.   Yes, exactly.

25        Q.   Can you please describe for us what happened?

Page 2308

 1        A.   Well, I could hear a lot of noise and music.

 2        Q.   The music, are you able to remember anything about the type of

 3     music that you heard?

 4        A.   Yes.  It was the Serbian nationalist music.

 5        Q.   And can you characterise the volume at which that music was being

 6     played?

 7        A.   It was very loud.

 8        Q.   Where was the music coming from, if you know?

 9        A.   From loudspeakers in the cars.

10        Q.   After hearing the music what happened?

11        A.   Well, after we heard the music, we heard people knocking on the

12     doors.

13        Q.   What happened next?

14        A.   So they knocked on the door.  They asked us to come out of the

15     house, and so we came out.

16        Q.   Did all of the people that you've listed for us a few minutes

17     ago, did all of those people come out of the house?

18        A.   Yes.  We all came out.

19        Q.   Where was your brother Dzevad at this point in time?

20        A.   He was on the ground floor.

21        Q.   Was he hiding in the place that you've described for us earlier

22     in your testimony?

23        A.   Yes, exactly.

24        Q.   And was anyone else hiding there with him?

25        A.   Yes.  My cousin was hiding with him also.

Page 2309

 1        Q.   Can you describe for us what you saw when you came out of your

 2     house?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Would you please do that.

 5        A.   So we all went out of the house, and people came out of other

 6     houses as well.  We were -- so we were all together in front of the

 7     house.  There were some men and soldiers as well, and then the men

 8     organised a convoy to take us to Bajina Basta.

 9        Q.   When you say the men organised a convoy to take you to Bajina

10     Basta, can you please tell us precisely what, if anything, was said to

11     you?

12        A.   They simply said, "We are going to set up a convoy to take you to

13     Bajina Basta."

14        Q.   When you came out of your house did you see any buses or other

15     vehicles that could have been used in a convoy?

16        A.   No.  There was nothing.

17        Q.   You've mentioned soldiers.  Can I ask you to describe with as

18     much specificity as you're able what you recall about the soldiers that

19     you saw?

20        A.   One of the soldiers was Milan Lukic himself, and I remember a

21     second man, his cousin, and his uncle whose name is also Lukic.

22        Q.   Do you recall this person -- or did you know the second person

23     you're referring to prior to this day?

24        A.   Yes.  I knew him.  He used to be a police officer in the town.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  It was his cousin or

Page 2310

 1     his uncle.

 2             MR. GROOME:

 3        Q.   Are you able to recall the first name of that person, or did you

 4     know the first name of that person?

 5        A.   No.  I no longer can recall.

 6        Q.   Can I ask you to describe that person's physical appearance?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Please do so.

 9        A.   Yes.  He was fairly strong, fairly tall, about 50 years of age.

10        Q.   Where precisely did you see Milan Lukic for the first time after

11     you left your house?

12        A.   On the path that separated two houses.

13        Q.   Where in relation to the front of your house?

14        A.   He was pretty much between two houses.

15        Q.   The person that you're describing as a cousin or uncle of Milan

16     Lukic, where was he the first time you saw him?

17        A.   He was coming down the stairs of my old house with another man.

18        Q.   The person that you're describing as the uncle or cousin, do you

19     recall how he was dressed?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Can you please describe what you remember about how he was

22     dressed?

23        A.   He was wearing a military uniform, the same type that was worn by

24     all the members of the army.

25        Q.   Do you recall whether or not he was armed?

Page 2311

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   What do you remember about that?

 3        A.   In fact, all the men who were on site were -- or had rifles on

 4     them.

 5        Q.   What happened after the occupants of your house left your house?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry, the interpreter didn't catch the

 7     last answer.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Would you please repeat your answer, Witness.

 9     The interpreter didn't hear.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We followed that man.  We followed

11     that man.

12             MR. GROOME:

13        Q.   When you say "that man," can I ask you to be precise about which

14     man you're referring to?

15        A.   Well, in fact, the men in the plural.  I'm sorry.  We followed

16     the men.

17        Q.   And where did these men lead you to?

18        A.   About 100 metres away from my house to another house.

19        Q.   Do you know the name of the family or the person who owned this

20     house?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   What was the name of the family that owned this house?

23        A.   Aljic.

24        Q.   And what was the name of the head of the household?

25        A.   Meho Aljic.

Page 2312

 1        Q.   What happened when you arrived in front of the Meho Aljic house?

 2        A.   We all went into the house of Meho Aljic.

 3        Q.   Do you recall what you were wearing that day?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Can you please describe what you were wearing, including any

 6     jewellery.

 7        A.   I was wearing sneakers, pants, a red T-shirt, a jacket, and I had

 8     a small gold chain on my neck.

 9        Q.   Did anything happen to that small gold chain?

10        A.   I was the last one to enter the house, and at that moment as I

11     was entering, Milan Lukic himself pulled the gold chain out from under my

12     red T-shirt.

13        Q.   Can you describe for us what you saw when you first entered the

14     house?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Please do so.

17        A.   Well, there were lots of people in the house.  They were all

18     sitting against the walls in the house.

19        Q.   Can you describe for the Chamber what the inside of the house

20     looked like?  Can you describe the type of room and what you remember

21     about the inside of the house?

22        A.   Yes.  It was a fairly large room, rather like a living-room, and

23     next to it was a kitchen.  So the -- both rooms, in fact, were connected.

24     They weren't separated.

25        Q.   Are you able to compare the size of the -- the inside of that

Page 2313

 1     house with perhaps, let's say, this courtroom?

 2        A.   No, I couldn't really.

 3        Q.   Were there other rooms off -- off of the room that you were in?

 4        A.   Yes.  There were two other doors in front of me.

 5        Q.   And do you have any belief as to whether there were people in

 6     these adjoining rooms?

 7        A.   Perhaps, but I didn't check.

 8        Q.   Can I ask you to describe what the front door of this house

 9     looked like?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Please do so.

12        A.   We didn't actually walk into the house by the front door.  We

13     walked in using a door that was on the terrace, a balcony door.

14        Q.   Can I ask you to describe that door for us?

15        A.   Well, so it was a large glass door next to the windows that were

16     also in glass.

17        Q.   The windows that you're referring to, how close were they to the

18     edge of the door?

19        A.   Well, they were all together.  It was a whole.  They were

20     connected to one another, the windows and the door.

21        Q.   Where did you go once you were inside that room?

22        A.   I stayed close to the wall.

23        Q.   Where was Aida?

24        A.   She was right next to me.

25        Q.   Where was your mother?

Page 2314

 1        A.   She went and sat down somewhere.

 2        Q.   Where was your sister Dzehva?

 3        A.   The same thing, she went to sit down somewhere in the room.

 4        Q.   And her children?

 5        A.   They were with her.

 6        Q.   Where was your sister-in-law?

 7        A.   The same.

 8        Q.   And her children?

 9        A.   Her son was with her.

10        Q.   And was the woman from Rujiste and her daughter also in the

11     house?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Can I ask you to describe what you remember about the other

14     people that you observed in the house?  Can you tell us whether they were

15     men or women, their approximate ages?  Can you tell us all that you

16     remember about the other people that you saw?

17        A.   In that house there were mainly young mothers with their small

18     children.  There were also a few elderly people, two or three elderly

19     men, also a few elderly women, but unfortunately there were many children

20     in the house.

21        Q.   What would you say was the age of the youngest child you saw in

22     the house that evening?

23        A.   The son of Suhra, a young mother, her son was not more than a

24     year old.

25        Q.   What's your best recollection as to the time of day that this

Page 2315

 1     occurred?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.  It was approximately 8.30.

 3        Q.   What was the atmosphere like in that room?

 4        A.   Fear.

 5        Q.   What happened in that room that night?

 6        A.   The men that I mentioned, first of all they threw rocks at the

 7     house to break the -- the windows, and then they threw in some grenades,

 8     and then they shot at the walls and the people inside and after that set

 9     fire.

10        Q.   You've mentioned some grenades.  Were you injured in any way when

11     this happened?

12        A.   Yes.  My left leg was injured in several places.

13        Q.   You testified that a fire was set.  Can I ask you to describe for

14     us in as much detail as you recall how that happened?

15        A.   Well, today I can't remember all the details.

16        Q.   Just if you'd tell us what you do recall today.

17        A.   Well, after throwing the rocks and the grenades and shooting at

18     us a fire broke out, and it just happened way too quickly, so quickly.

19     That's really all I can say at this moment.

20        Q.   What portion of the house was the fire in?

21        A.   It was the room in which we were, the living-room and the

22     dining-room or kitchen, however you would like to call it.

23        Q.   Can you characterise how quickly the fire spread in that room?

24        A.   Yes.  The fire spread extremely quickly, very quickly.

25        Q.   What did people in the room do?

Page 2316

 1        A.   The people inside were burning alive.  They were wailing,

 2     screaming.  It's just not describable what I heard.

 3        Q.   Did their clothes catch fire?

 4        A.   Well, with all the fire and smoke I couldn't see anything.

 5        Q.   Did your clothes catch fire?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes, of course.

 7        Q.   Where was Aida at this time?

 8        A.   Well, she was still next to me.  In fact, I held her close to me,

 9     close to my stomach.

10        Q.   What happened next?

11        A.   When I started to -- to really burn and it was unbearable, I

12     remembered where the door was, the door through which I came in, and I

13     tried to escape through that door.

14        Q.   Were you able to escape through that door?

15        A.   Well, I was surprised when I reached the door.  I wanted to -- to

16     go through the door and take my sister with me, but we weren't able to

17     because there was an obstruction, but I did manage to get out.

18        Q.   Were you able to take your sister with you?

19        A.   No, no, not at all.  She stayed behind.

20        Q.   After you got outside of that house were you able to see what it

21     was that was obstructing the door?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   What was it?

24        A.   Well, there was another door leaning against the door.  It was a

25     metal garage door that was leaning against the door and therefore

Page 2317

 1     blocking it.

 2        Q.   How was it that you were able to get past this garage door?

 3        A.   Well, there was a space of approximately 65 centimetres, and

 4     that's what enabled me to get through.

 5        Q.   After you got outside of the house did you see anyone?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.  I saw the men who had caused the fire.

 7        Q.   Where precisely were they?

 8        A.   About 100 metres away.  They were lying on the grass.

 9        Q.   Could you see what they were doing?

10        A.   Yes.  They were lying on the grass.

11        Q.   Did they see you?

12        A.   Yes, they saw me.

13        Q.   Did any of them say anything to you?

14        A.   Yes.  In fact, they all shouted at me at the same time.  They

15     said, "Stop.  Stop."

16        Q.   Did you stop?

17        A.   No, I did not.

18        Q.   What did you do?

19        A.   Well, I ran, and as I was doing so I shook off my clothes that

20     were burning.

21        Q.   Where were you running to?

22        A.   Well, I reason away from the house towards another house, towards

23     Megdan in neighbourhood where the Serbian population was.

24        Q.   At this time, Ms. Turjacanin, I'm going to ask you to look at the

25     computer terminal in front you and I want to show you Prosecution Exhibit

Page 2318

 1     P54.  It is a computer programme that contains 360-degree photos.  Could

 2     I ask you to look at the computer in front of you and do you see an image

 3     on the computer in front of you?

 4        A.   No.  I don't yet have it in front of me.

 5        Q.   Do you see it now?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   Do you recognise what is depicted in this photograph?

 8        A.   Yes, I recognise the path.  I do recognise this.  I recognise my

 9     garage, and I recognise the stairway of my old house.

10        Q.   Ms. --

11        A.   And I see part of the wall of my new house.

12        Q.   Ms. Turjacanin, if I could ask you some specific questions about

13     what we're looking at to maybe assist the Chamber.  On the right side of

14     the photograph there is small structure with brown doors.  Do you know

15     what this structure is?  Did you hear my question?

16        A.   It was my garage.

17        Q.   Beyond that, also on the right side of the picture, there is a

18     set of concrete steps.  Do you recognise those steps?

19        A.   Yes.  That is the staircase of my house, of the house that I used

20     to live in.

21        Q.   There is a house on the left of the screen.  Do you recognise

22     that house?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   Who owned that house, if you know?

25        A.   Nedzib Sadikovic.

Page 2319

 1        Q.   The path that we can see in front of us, is this the path that

 2     you have testified about that you were on after you came out of your

 3     house?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   I'm going to ask Mr. Van Hooydonk to pan to the left.  If we

 6     could stop there.

 7             Now, we can still see the Sadikovic house that you've identified

 8     for us, and we can also see another path.  Can you describe this path for

 9     us?

10        A.   This path is the path that leads to the house of Meho Aljic.

11        Q.   Is this the path where the men led you that night?

12        A.   Yes.  That's exactly right.

13        Q.   Can I ask Mr. Van Hooydonk to take us to the back of this house.

14     Okay.

15             Do you recognise what we're looking at now?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   We can see a house in the -- in this picture.  Can you tell us

18     whose house that is?

19        A.   Still the house of Nedzib Sadikovic.

20        Q.   I'm going to ask Mr. Van Hooydonk to pan to the left.  Please

21     stop there.

22             Can you please describe what we're looking at now in the image?

23        A.   Well, you can see some stones and the foundations of a house.

24        Q.   Where was the Meho Aljic house?

25        A.   On the foundations that you still see here on this picture.

Page 2320

 1        Q.   Can I ask Mr. Van Hooydonk to pan to the left.  Please stop

 2     there.

 3             Is there anything in particular about this house that you -- you

 4     wish to identify to us?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   What is it that you wish to identify?

 7        A.   The garage door.

 8        Q.   Could I ask that we zoom into that garage door.

 9             Is this door similar to the door that was blocking the doorway on

10     the night of the fire?

11        A.   Yes, that's exactly right.

12        Q.   Where did you escape?  When you described your escape that night,

13     how did you get past these -- or the garage door?

14        A.   Yes.  I was able to slip through the -- the edge.  There was a

15     small opening of about 60 centimetres, and I was able to slip through

16     that.

17        Q.   On the image we are now looking at there seems to be an opening

18     at the top of the door.  Is that similar to the opening that you escaped

19     through?

20             MR. ALARID:  Objection, leading.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Groome.  Reformulate.

22             MR. GROOME:

23        Q.   Can you compare what we're looking at here in terms of what you

24     recall from that night?

25        A.   They are exactly identical in terms of colour, exactly identical

Page 2321

 1     to the door by which I passed, and I went through an opening that is

 2     exactly the same.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's time for the break.  We will adjourn.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I could ask one more question on

 5     this and then I'll be finished with this part of the examination.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, certainly.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask Mr. Van Hooydonk to pan to the left a

 8     little bit more.  That's good.

 9        Q.   We are now looking at a grassy area on the other side of the

10     path.  Is this relevant to your testimony?

11        A.   Yes.  That's where I saw the men lying on the grass when I came

12     out of the house.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, that's the only question I wanted to

14     ask about this exhibit.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We will adjourn, and we'll leave the courtroom

16     after the witness.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We will just hear, I believe, Mr. Alarid.

21             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour, the court assistant had asked me

22     if we could do this after the witness, and I would --

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm allowing you to do it now.

24             MR. ALARID:  Well, here's the issue, Your Honour.  In this case

25     we received disclosures with regards to images that were going to be used

Page 2322

 1     and so we've set to working because according to the disclosure sheet

 2     filed by the Prosecution last night the still image from 65 ter 0175

 3     showing the garage door through which VG-114 escaped.  So by implication

 4     of how it was typed it was the actual garage door.  I can't tell from the

 5     testimony whether it was by her description other than her creating the

 6     metaphor.  But in looking at the EDS system, Your Honour, and putting in

 7     just the simple name of this witness, we made a disturbing discovery that

 8     simply is there is an interview notes from the OTP for an interview

 9     conducted by Dermot Groome, Yves Roy (redacted) on the 15th and 16th

10     of December, 2000 in relation to over two days and six hours of interview

11     time.  For whatever reason the OTP's interview notes are in the system.

12     We've received no statement related -- or any discovery related to these

13     interviews by the OTP.

14             Clearly just from the notations related to the witness's

15     identification of Mitar Vasiljevic, his involvement in the evening of

16     Bikavac fire as well as many other things, and this is clearly

17     exculpatory Rule 68 material and the fact of the matter is, Your Honour,

18     is I was going to be requesting a formal deposition before cross given

19     the nature of the failure to disclose because all I can say, Your Honour,

20     is at this point, I can't -- I can't rule out a wilful failure to

21     disclose relevant discovery to the Defence of Milan Lukic.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

23             MR. GROOME:  As the Court heard me say several weeks ago.  The

24     initial contact that we had had with this witness was the process of

25     speaking with her for a few minutes and then her retreating to regain her

Page 2323

 1     composure.  All of the notes that were taken during that interview or

 2     that discussion with her have been disclosed.  There is no statement.  No

 3     statement was taken.  She was unable to give any type of formal statement

 4     at that time.  That's been clearly explained.  These notes have been

 5     disclosed to the Defence.  There are two pages of notes.  There is

 6     nothing else other to disclose other than the videotaped statements that

 7     this witness gave shortly afterwards and they also have been disclosed,

 8     so disclosure has been complete in this case.  There is nothing else that

 9     needs to be disclosed.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So your position then is that the interview of

11     which Mr. Alarid speaks and which he said took place on the 15th and 16th

12     December, 2000, that that has been disclosed.

13             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, it's four pages of notes and --

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It doesn't matter.  He says it has been

16     disclosed.

17             MR. ALARID:  It has not been disclosed.  I would ask them to find

18     in the disclosures where this came through.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm not going to hold up the proceedings now.

20     It's at matter that can take up again --

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, Mr. Van Hooydonk is getting that

22     information.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON: [Overlapping speakers] ... cross-examine.

24             MR. GROOME:  I'll -- if the usher wouldn't mind, Mr. Alarid can

25     have my copies of those notes if he's unable to find --

Page 2324

 1             MR. ALARID:  No.  I got several copies.

 2             MR. GROOME:  So you do have copies?

 3             MR. ALARID:  We printed them just this morning.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's not the point, Mr. Groome.  He's saying

 5     that he only received it this morning.

 6             MR. ALARID:  Well, not from them.  We were searching the

 7     electronic discovery system, Your Honour.  We were basically just fishing

 8     for things and references involving this witness's name and what amounted

 9     to is comes out what appears to be internal notes from the district -- or

10     from the Office of the Prosecutor four pages of notes related to

11     interviews related to the Mitar Vasiljevic preparation or in advance of

12     trial type notes --

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, you say all these things were

14     disclosed.  Do you have anything to --

15             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour, and the electronic discovery system

16     is a system set up to facilitate disclosure.  I can find out when they

17     were put in that system but it sounds like the system has worked.  They

18     were there for Mr. Alarid.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Find out for me and let me have that

20     information.  In the meantime we are going to commence the

21     cross-examination with Mr. Alarid.

22             MR. GROOME:  I'm sorry.  I have a few more questions, Your

23     Honour.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Oh, I thought you had finished.  No?

25             MR. GROOME:  No, I haven't finished.

Page 2325

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You haven't finished.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Just with that one exhibit, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Oh, I see.  Okay, very well, yes.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5        Q.   Ms. Turjacanin, I'm going to show you some still photographs and

 6     I'm going to ask you a series of questions about them.  The first one I'd

 7     ask you to look at is 65 ter number 175.10.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you please slow down.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Yes, I apologise.

10        Q.   Do you recognise what's depicted in 65 ter number 175.10?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   What is depicted?

13        A.   Two houses.  The house of Sadikovic and also the crime place and

14     the house where is this garage door.

15        Q.   I'm going to ask you to make some marks on this photograph with

16     the assistance of the usher.  I'd ask you to begin by putting ZT on the

17     bottom of the photograph to remind us that it is you who made these

18     marks.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Can you see your house in this photograph?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Can I ask you to circle the old section of your house and put

23     ZT1?

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Can I ask you to circle the new portion of your house and put

Page 2326

 1     ZT2.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Can you see the Sadikovic house?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Can you please circle that and put an S to indicate Nedzib

 6     Sadikovic.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Can you see where the Meho Aljic house was?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Can you please circle that and put MA to indicate.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   And finally I would ask you can you -- you mentioned seeing Milan

13     Lukic at a neighbour's house where you were having coffee.  Can you see

14     that house in this photograph?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Can I ask you to circle it and put the initials DK to indicate

17     the initials of the person who were saying you had coffee with, Dzemila

18     Kahriman?

19        A.   Kahriman.  [Marks]

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I would tender this

21     photograph with its markings.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  It is admitted as Exhibit number P133.

24             MR. GROOME:  At this time, Your Honour, I would call up 65 ter

25     number 175.11.

Page 2327

 1        Q.   Ms. Turjacanin, do you recognise what's depicted in this

 2     photograph?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Before you make any marks on this photograph, can I ask you to

 5     put your initials, ZT, at the bottom of the photograph.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   You are working with a blue pen, and I'd ask you once again to

 8     circle your house and put the initials ZT to indicate that's where your

 9     house is.

10        A.   I have two, actually.

11        Q.   Yes, please put ZT1 to indicate the old house and ZT2 to indicate

12     the new house.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Is the location where the Meho Aljic house visible, where it was

15     visible on this photograph?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   I'd ask you to circle where that is and place MA.

18        A.   All the house, all around the whole house?

19        Q.   In the area where the house was.

20        A.   Which house?

21        Q.   The house owned by Meho Aljic.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   And please put MA inside that circle.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Now, can I ask you now to draw a blue line indicating the path

Page 2328

 1     that you say you were taking from your house to the Meho Aljic house.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   And can I ask you just to put an arrow to indicate the direction

 4     you were walking.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Now, could I ask the usher to change the colour of the pen from

 7     blue to read.

 8             And I ask you now to -- you described fleeing after you escaped

 9     the house.  Can I ask you to draw the path that you took when you fled

10     the burning house using the red marker.  It will be the same pen that you

11     were using before.  It's the same -- it's an electronic pen,

12     Ms. Turjacanin.  You can use the same pen.  It will just appear red.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   And please put an arrow to indicate the direction you were

15     running.

16        A.   [Marks]

17             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would tender this exhibit into

18     evidence.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's admitted.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P134, Your Honours.

21             MR. GROOME:  I now ask that the witness be shown 65 ter number

22     175.12.

23        Q.   Ms. Turjacanin, it may take a minute or two for this photograph

24     to appear before you.  While it is being loaded into the computer, can I

25     ask you where you went after you left the fire.

Page 2329

 1        A.   I went to the Megdan, which is --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Unintelligible.

 3             MR. GROOME:

 4        Q.   Could you please repeat your answer.  The interpreter had

 5     difficulty hearing you.

 6        A.   I went to the Megdan, which has a Serb population, populated with

 7     a Serb population.

 8        Q.   And did you go to specific houses?

 9        A.   No.

10             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, this is not post that I wished to work

11     with.  It's 175.12, and the ERN number is 05449609.

12        Q.   Can you describe your physical condition shortly after the fire?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Please do so.

15        A.   I remember everything which happened, but because of my burns to

16     my face and to my hand I was feeling very ill.

17        Q.   We are now looking at 65 ter number 175.12.  Can you see that on

18     the screen before you?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   This is a still from the computer programme that you were

21     describing for us earlier.  Can I ask you to place the initials ZT-G on

22     your garage.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Can I ask you to put -- the house on the left, who owned that

25     house again, please?

Page 2330

 1        A.   Nedzib Sadikovic.

 2        Q.   Can I ask you to put his initials on that house to indicate

 3     that's where he lived.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Can we see in this photograph the house where you and the women

 6     were having coffee and -- before the fire that you've testified about?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can you circle that and again put the initials of the woman you

 9     were having coffee with, Dzemila Kahriman.

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Is the -- the place where you first saw Milan Lukic the evening

12     of the fire visible on this photograph?

13        A.   Yes.  At that house that's the first time I saw Milan Lukic at

14     that house.

15        Q.   I'm now talking about the night of the fire.  Your first

16     observation of him the night of the fire, is that location visible on

17     this photograph?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   You've referred in your testimony to an uncle or cousin.  Is the

20     location where you first saw this person visible on the photograph that's

21     before you?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Can you please mark that with a circle and perhaps simply put an

24     X.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 2331

 1        Q.   Where was Milan Lukic the first time you saw him in relation to

 2     the -- what we can see in this image?

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   You've made a dot in the middle of the path; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   I'd ask you to put ML under that dot to indicate that.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   And finally could I ask you to draw a line to indicate the path

 9     that you took from your house towards the Meho Aljic house.

10        A.   [Marks]

11             MR. GROOME:  I now ask the witness -- sorry, may I tender that

12     into evidence, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit number P136.

15             MR. GROOME:  I'd ask that now the witness be shown Exhibit

16     175.13.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Apologies to the counsel, it's Exhibit number

18     P135.

19             MR. GROOME:

20        Q.   While that photograph is being loaded into the system -- well, it

21     seems it's now here before us.  Do you recognise what's depicted in this

22     photograph, the 65 ter number 175.13?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Before you make any marks, could you please put ZT on the bottom

25     to indicate that it's your markings.

Page 2332

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Does this photograph depict the path that you and the other

 3     members of your family took to the Meho Aljic house?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Can you please draw a line to indicate that.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I would tender this

 8     exhibit.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  It is admitted as Exhibit number P136.

10             MR. GROOME:  And if we could then see 65 ter number 175.14.

11        Q.   While that's being called up, Ms. Turjacanin, where did you spend

12     the night, the night after you escaped the fire?

13        A.   Partly at the Megdan, and the second part of the night I returned

14     to Bikavac.

15        Q.   When you returned to Bikavac did you stay in a particular house?

16        A.   When I went back to Bikavac I went back for a precise reason.

17     That means to say I went specifically while there were still people of

18     Bikavac, and I wanted to warn them to leave.

19        Q.   And did you go to houses in the Bikavac area and warn people to

20     leave?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Approximately how many houses do you recall going to?

23        A.   Four, four.  On the fourth I stayed.

24        Q.   And what was the name of the person in -- or the family in that

25     house?

Page 2333

 1        A.   The fourth house where I stayed the family was called Salic.

 2        Q.   Before you on the screen you can see 65 ter number 175.14.  Do

 3     you recognise what's depicted in this photograph?

 4        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 5        Q.   And what is in this photograph?

 6        A.   The crime scene I see.

 7        Q.   Can you see a portion of the house of Nedzib Sadikovic in this

 8     photograph?

 9        A.   Yes, behind.

10        Q.   Can I ask you to first put your initials at the bottom of the

11     photograph?

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   And can I ask you to put an NS on the portion of the house of

14     Nedzib Sadikovic that we can see?

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   And can I ask you to circle the location where the Meho Aljic was

17     and put an MA into that.

18        A.   [Marks]

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I would tender the

20     photograph with these markings into evidence.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  It is admitted as Exhibit P137.

23             MR. GROOME:

24        Q.   And the final picture I'd like -- or ask you to look at is 65 ter

25     number 175.15.

Page 2334

 1             While that's being called up, you've just -- I'm sorry, it looks

 2     like it's coming on the screen now.

 3             This is a picture of -- from the still video that you referred to

 4     earlier in your testimony.  Can I ask you to circle where you believed

 5     you climbed out of that night.

 6        A.   I didn't really understand what you said.

 7        Q.   You've testified that these doors were similar to the doors that

 8     were blocking the Meho Aljic house.  If you're able, can I ask you to

 9     circle how it was you were able to get past these doors or the doors that

10     looked like these doors.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   And once again would you put your initials at the bottom of this

13     photograph so that we know.

14        A.   [Marks]

15             MR. GROOME:  And I would tender this into evidence, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  It's admitted as Exhibit P138.

18             MR. GROOME:

19        Q.   Did you touch the doors as you climbed through them?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What do you remember about the doors as you climbed through --

22     through them?

23        A.   My -- my hands were burnt because the doors were burning.  They

24     were too hot.

25        Q.   Did you touch the doors with your hands?

Page 2335

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   I want to now draw your attention to the morning after the fire.

 3     Where did you go the morning after the fire?

 4        A.   I went to the command of the Serb army, Serbian army.

 5        Q.   Did you ask them to do something when you arrived there?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   What did you ask them to do?

 8        A.   I asked them to shoot me.

 9        Q.   Did anyone shoot you at that time?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Where did you go after that?

12        A.   Again at the house of Salic.

13        Q.   Did there come a time when someone came, a medical person came to

14     the house?

15        A.   Yes.  Yes, a doctor came.

16        Q.   Did you know this doctor?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   What was his name?

19        A.   I don't know.

20        Q.   How did you know him?

21        A.   It was a medic who was tending to the staff of the place where I

22     was working.

23        Q.   Did he bring you back to the hospital in Visegrad?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   How long did he remain with you?

Page 2336

 1        A.   Ten minutes.

 2        Q.   What, if anything, did he do for you?

 3        A.   For me he didn't do anything.  He gave me some ointment and/or

 4     cream and pills.

 5        Q.   Did you ever come back to administer medical treatment to you

 6     again?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   How long did you remain in the Salic house?

 9        A.   Eleven days.

10        Q.   Why did you leave on the eleventh day?

11        A.   Because on the eleventh day a soldier of the army who was close

12     to the house came to warn me that I should leave because Milan Lukic knew

13     that I was there, and I was warned that he would come and try to finish

14     me off.

15        Q.   The night of the fire, did you ask anyone to go back to your

16     house that -- that day or that night?

17        A.   Yes.  I asked my neighbour to go back to my house to help to open

18     up the space in which my brother and cousin had taken refuge.

19        Q.   Did there come a time when you eventually left Visegrad?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Did you go to a place called Medjedja?

22             MR. ALARID:  Objection, leading.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the witness went to several places on

25     the way.  I'm just trying to in an uncontroversial manner just expedite

Page 2337

 1     my examination.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Apparently Mr. Alarid doesn't think it's

 3     non-controversial, so let the witness give the evidence as to where she

 4     went.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Where did you ultimately arrive after leaving Visegrad?

 7        A.   First of all I went to Okruglo where I stayed four days.  Then I

 8     continued on my way and a few days later I reached Medjedja.

 9        Q.   How did you get there?  What was the means of transport?

10        A.   On foot.  We crossed the hills and the mountains on foot.

11        Q.   Did you encounter any Serb positions on your way to Medjedja?

12        A.   Yes.  We always encountered Serb positions.  That's why we didn't

13     travel during the day but, rather, during the night.

14             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I'd again object to the leading nature

15     of the entire questioning.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I would allow that one, Mr. Alarid.

17             But I caution you again, Mr. Groome.

18             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'll do my best, but it's my view

19     that I'm not leading the witness, but I will do my best to ask even more

20     vague questions.

21             MR. ALARID:  And I guess my definition of a non-leading question

22     is:  "What happened next?"

23             MR. GROOME:  I'm not limited to a single question in my

24     examination, Your Honour.  A leading question is one that suggests an

25     answer to the witness.  I'm not suggesting any answers to this witness .

Page 2338

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please proceed.

 2        Q.   You've mentioned that one of the places you were at on the way to

 3     Medjedja is a place called Okruglo.  Did you attempt to get medical

 4     treatment in Okruglo?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Did you see any doctors in Okruglo?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   What was the ethnicity of the doctor or doctors that you saw?

 9        A.   Muslim.

10        Q.   Can you please describe what happened during -- or your

11     interaction with this Muslim doctor?

12        A.   Well, I was just in too much pain because of all my wounds, and

13     someone asked him to -- to take care of me, but he refused.  He said,

14     "It's not worth it.  She's really on death's door, and so I might as well

15     keep the medication for the soldiers."

16        Q.   What was your reaction to being told this by the doctor?

17        A.   I said, "No, you're wrong.  I can't die.  I want to live."

18        Q.   I'm drawing your attention now to Medjedja.  When you arrived in

19     Medjedja, did you see someone that you knew?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. GROOME:  I would ask whether the pseudonym sheet is before

22     the witness.  If not, I ask that it -- could the corrected version be

23     put?

24             Your Honour, if I could hand correct so that the correct

25     pseudonym is on the sheet.

Page 2339

 1        Q.   Who did you meet in Medjedja, or who did you see?

 2        A.   I saw the individual VG-32.

 3        Q.   Can you describe your first meeting with him?

 4        A.   Well, this man was the husband of my best friend.  VG-32 did not

 5     recognise me.  So VG-32 asked me, he said, "Zehra, is it you?"  And I

 6     said, "Yes, it is indeed me."

 7        Q.   Can you describe your physical condition at the time you arrived

 8     in Medjedja?

 9        A.   Well, I was in an extremely poor condition both physically and

10     emotionally because of the wounds and the bandages, and my hands were so

11     burnt.  They were infected, and so they were oozing, and in fact people

12     were scared when they saw me.

13        Q.   Did you receive treatment in Medjedja?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And who primarily administered that treatment?

16        A.   VG-32.

17        Q.   Did there come a time when you left Medjedja?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   How long did you remain in Medjedja?

20        A.   I can't say exactly.

21        Q.   Where did you go when you left Medjedja?

22        A.   The four Croatian soldiers came from Bosnia and took me to the

23     hospital in Zenica.

24        Q.   How did you get from Medjedja to Zenica?

25        A.   Well, as before, on foot.  We crossed mountains and hills.

Page 2340

 1        Q.   I'm going to ask that you look at the screen in front of you and

 2     I'm going to ask that the Sanction system be put on.

 3             After you escaped the fire did you give several statements about

 4     what happened to you?

 5        A.   I didn't understand the question.

 6        Q.   After you escaped the fire, did you give several statements to

 7     journalists and other people about what happened to you in Bikavac?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9        Q.   After arriving in The Hague, were you asked to look at some video

10     recorded statements from around this time?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   I am not going to ask you to look at these videos again here, but

13     I am going to ask you to confirm whether or not the image you see in

14     front of you, which is from 65 ter number 168, is the beginning of one of

15     the videos that you watched this week.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Did it fairly and accurately depict the interview as best you can

18     recall?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I would tender this

21     statement -- or this video recording, Prosecution Exhibit -- Prosecution

22     65 ter number 168.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We admit it.

24             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

Page 2341

 1             MR. ALARID:  Just for clarification, we've received two

 2     transcripts and then -- that were undated and one transcript of a tape

 3     that was dated, and so we'd like some clarification of if this is the

 4     dated one or one of the two non-dated ones.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I don't have all the information here,

 6     but what I can say is this:  That one of the videotapes if you recall was

 7     introduced through VG-32.  So -- and to save time I'm not even going to

 8     establish -- it's already in evidence.  This one I have introduced, and

 9     the third one was not put on the 65 ter list but it was disclosed because

10     it was a prior statement of -- of this witness.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Are you able to assist Mr. Alarid in identifying

12     it?

13             MR. GROOME:  I'll ask Mr. Van Hooydonk to look up once the

14     information from 65 ter number 168.

15             MR. ALARID:  And just for some help, Your Honour, one of the

16     statements is five pages transcribed with a journalist noted as the

17     interviewer.

18             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have just a few questions of this

19     witness.  Can I complete my examination?  I will assist their Mr. Alarid

20     any way I can before his cross-examination.

21             MR. ALARID:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid, let Mr. Groome finish.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 65 ter number 168 is admitted as Exhibit

24     number P139.

25             MR. GROOME:

Page 2342

 1        Q.   Ms. Turjacanin, I'd ask you now at this point to look around the

 2     courtroom and tell us whether you recognise anyone here aside from

 3     myself.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The accused was not asked to stand.  The accused

 5     who is standing will sit.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 7             MR. GROOME:

 8        Q.   So it's your evidence that you do not recognise anyone here in

 9     the courtroom today?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Can I ask you to summarise your -- the injuries that you

12     sustained, first your physical injuries?

13        A.   I suffered from third-degree burns.  I'm missing part of my ears,

14     and my hands are completely paralysed.

15        Q.   Did you receive skin grafts to repair some of the damage to your

16     skin?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And you said that your hands are paralysed.  Are you able to

19     function normally at present given the state of your hands?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Is there any prospect that your hands will return to a normal

22     condition?

23        A.   Unfortunately, never.

24        Q.   What has been the psychological implications of what occurred to

25     you in the course of this fire?

Page 2343

 1        A.   It's really too complex, too difficult to explain.

 2        Q.   If you could summarise.  Do you now, 16 years after, still feel

 3     the effects of what happened to you that night?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   My final question to you here today is can you describe for the

 6     Chamber the overall impact of what happened to you on Vidovdan night in

 7     June of 1992?

 8        A.   All that happened on the 27th of June, 1992, all of the

 9     suffering, all of the pain that I was subjected to and that I will

10     continue to be experiencing for the rest of my life, but despite all of

11     that, I would say only one thing, I'm still alive and life is beautiful,

12     and I still wish to live a full life.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

16             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Mr. Groome, I wonder if you could help

17     me with something.  I would want something in the transcript to be

18     clarified.  Page 20, line 9 of the transcript where the witness was

19     saying that she went to visit her neighbour Sena Subasic and that a

20     colleague of hers came to visit, and the name of that person is Milan

21     Lukic.  Is that the person -- another person, or is it the same person as

22     the accused?

23             MR. GROOME:  I can clarify that with a couple of questions, Your

24     Honour.

25             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Thank you.

Page 2344

 1             MR. GROOME:

 2        Q.   You've testified earlier about a colleague of yours from work.

 3     Can I ask you to say his name and then also please spell his last name so

 4     it's clear the person you're referring to.

 5        A.   I really want to have two things clarified about these names

 6     because they're similar.  Milan Lukic and Milan Lucic are two different

 7     persons.  Milan Lukic and Milan Lucic are two different people.  Milan

 8     Lucic was my friend and colleague.  He was a really good person.  And

 9     Milan Lukic is the one who inflicted all the wounds and suffering that I

10     have described to you.

11        Q.   Can I ask you to please spell the last name of your colleague

12     just so that it is completely clear.

13        A.   L-u-c-i-c.

14             MR. GROOME:  Does that clarify it?  I have no questions, Your

15     Honour.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  May I ask you, witness, French is not your

17     native language.  You may be naturally liguistically gifted.  So I'd like

18     to find out whether there is any particular reason why you're giving your

19     evidence in French.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there is.  That's true.

21     Everything I -- I lived through and experienced in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

22     well, I've -- I've broke off all contacts with Bosnia-Herzegovina, and so

23     I -- I've distanced myself from there.  Today I have a new home country,

24     and that's where my new life is, and that's why I want to use the

25     language of that new country.

Page 2345

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

 2             Mr. Alarid.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5             MR. ALARID:

 6        Q.   Good morning, Ms. Turjacanin.  My name is Jason Alarid, and I

 7     represent Milan Lukic, and I have to ask you a few questions.  Can we --

 8     can we do that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, I can tell as you sit here that you are traumatised, and I

11     can tell as you sit here that you've experienced a lot of pain.  I have a

12     good friend who was burned over 90 per cent of his body and the recovery

13     was horrendous, so I know that you've gone through a lot because I've

14     seen your videos.  I've seen your scars.  I'll sorry for that.

15             Now, in preparation for my -- this case, we were given several

16     statements by you, some of them to the media or the news -- the

17     television, and a couple that were written down.  Do you remember giving

18     statements to the television after you escaped from Visegrad?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Approximately how many times did you give statements to the

21     television, let's say?

22        A.   Yes, I do.  I don't remember.  I don't remember.  In fact, my

23     answer would be no.

24        Q.   So you're saying you did not give statements to television?

25        A.   Yes, I did make statements, but I don't know how many times.

Page 2346

 1        Q.   Understood.  Well, if we have three times and three transcripts

 2     related to television interviews, would that refresh your recollection?

 3        A.   I'm not sure.

 4        Q.   Could it have been more?

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6        Q.   Now, is it true that you also gave testimonials that were reduced

 7     to writing, to statement form?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Did you give interviews with investigators of war crimes?

10        A.   I don't know.

11        Q.   How many times did you meet with the Office of the Prosecutor in

12     this case at any time in your history?

13        A.   I don't know.

14        Q.   Did you -- do you recall meeting with the Office of the

15     Prosecutor in December of 2000, over two days at your home in France?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   And you were asked several questions about the incident just like

18     you are today.  Isn't that true?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you know if your statements were recorded?

21        A.   I don't know.

22        Q.   Was anything ever reduced to writing for you to look at and

23     review?

24        A.   I don't know.

25        Q.   Well, would you agree that a murder of this magnitude, 70 people

Page 2347

 1     in a home, is a very important crime?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   It's a crime that deserves investigation and pursuit by all

 4     available authorities.  Isn't that true?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Did you ever speak with Bosnian police investigators?

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8        Q.   Were you ever interviewed by police officers that wanted to hear

 9     your story?

10        A.   I no longer remember.  I can't recall.

11        Q.   The reason I ask you this is many witnesses that have come to

12     this court to testify have given both statements to the Prosecution of

13     this court as well as officers of Bosnia, and I did not see interviews

14     from you to either of them.  Can you explain that?

15        A.   I'm sorry, I don't really understand your question.

16        Q.   Well, I'm just wondering why a crime of such magnitude is not

17     documented amongst police officers of your countries since you were

18     recovering there.

19        A.   Well, I didn't say that no -- nothing took place.  I didn't say

20     there was no communication with the police.  I don't remember.  I don't

21     remember --

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- which organisation that was.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's hear Mr. Groome.

25             MR. GROOME:  Just as a point clarity, the third video that was

Page 2348

 1     provided Mr. Alarid was given -- was a videotaped interview by an

 2     investigative Judge taken in 1993, and with respect to the document that

 3     was -- the Chamber asked me to get some information on, that was first

 4     disclosed in March of 2004, so over four years ago, and I redisclosed it

 5     as well without any redactions on the 22nd of September 2008.  I believe

 6     the original one had the address redacted at that time.  So it's been --

 7     it was disclosed over four years ago.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

 9             MR. ALARID:  Well, for the record we did not get it and we're

10     still looking in the batch of September 20th.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But for the record it was disclosed.

12             Now, I believe you ought to be moving to another point,

13     Mr. Alarid.

14             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, this is probably the most important

15     witness in this case.  I will put to the witness that I don't necessarily

16     believe this happened from the statements that occurred, the statements

17     that I'm sure you'll get to read, and maybe from the testimony of this

18     witness, and I have to get to the bottom of it, but I understand what the

19     delay with the French translation and of course the delicate condition of

20     this witness I must move slow and I apologise, but I would ask for the

21     patience of the Court.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, I'm naturally and normally a patient

23     person, Mr. Alarid, but this particular point I thought you had

24     exhausted.

25             MR. ALARID:  Okay.  Could the court assistant please upload

Page 2349

 1     1D10-2599 with the B/C/S version 1D10-2604, please.

 2        Q.   Now, I'm asking you to look and read the start -- do you

 3     recognise your name at the top of this document?  And I believe it says:

 4     "Zehra Turjacanin, the sole survivor of the inferno during the night of

 5     27 June 1992 describes about everything she saw and heard from witnesses

 6     who survived the hideous crime in Visegrad municipality."

 7             Can you read that?

 8             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just to be clear it said the "hideous

 9     crimes," not the "hideous crime."

10             MR. ALARID:  I apologise.

11        Q.   Do you recognise that, ma'am?  Do you see that?

12        A.   I'm sorry, I actually need my glasses.

13        Q.   Do you have them with you?  Can you put them on?

14        A.   No, they're not here.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'll ask the usher to fetch her glasses so they

16     can be used by the witness.

17             MR. ALARID:

18        Q.   If I could ask you a few questions and you can tell me whether

19     you disagree with that.  At the top of this statement and in other

20     televised statements you specifically state that you were one of the last

21     remaining 753 Muslims who managed to escape from Visegrad, and you used

22     the term 753 in other places in your statements, and I'm wondering why

23     you're so precise on that number.  Could you explain that, please?

24        A.   Would you please repeat your question?

25        Q.   Well, my first question was do you recognise that this would be a

Page 2350

 1     statement from you, things that only you would have known, things that

 2     you gave to an investigator or what-not that was reduced to writing?

 3        A.   Well, I don't remember everything.

 4        Q.   Well, then let's go through some of the things that are

 5     documented here and see if you would agree that you would say that or not

 6     say that.  Is that okay?  Do you agree that -- do you agree that you were

 7     one of the last 753 Muslim who managed to escape from Visegrad?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And why do you use the number 753?  Why are you so precise with

10     that number?

11        A.   Because when we stopped to rest during the day in the forest, the

12     men who were leading the convoy, they counted how many we were quite

13     accurately.

14        Q.   And --

15        A.   So that no one would be left behind in the woods.

16        Q.   And --

17        A.   And that's why I know that it was that number 753, and it's

18     precise.

19        Q.   Now, this is an exodus of your people from Visegrad that occurred

20     how long after the fire, how long after St. Vitus Day?

21        A.   I don't know exactly, but about 20 days.

22        Q.   And how was it that this number of people, 753 people, were

23     gathered into one area to make this exodus over the mountains and the

24     valleys?

25        A.   When I arrived in Okruglo, the men returned from Visegrad to

Page 2351

 1     gather, to assemble all of the people who were still left behind.

 2        Q.   And how many -- and how many men were -- were facilitating this

 3     exodus?  How many Bosnian soldiers were helping this group?

 4        A.   Specifically those were not soldiers.  Those were just people who

 5     gathered to try and assemble all the population in order to avoid any

 6     further crimes and to save what could still be saved.

 7        Q.   And how many of these men were -- were leading this exodus?

 8        A.   I can't say for sure, but approximately 30 men.

 9        Q.   And how many people went with you to Okruglo?

10        A.   I left with four men and one elderly lady to go to Okruglo.

11        Q.   And did the journey at least to there, were you only accompanied

12     by these five other people?

13        A.   Yes, that's right.

14        Q.   And how long did that journey take on foot?

15        A.   Well, I can't say exactly.  Ten hours about.

16        Q.   Now, in the statement in front of you it says that, "My story

17     could begin from the moment when the Uzice Corps arrived in Visegrad and

18     began taking away Muslim men."

19             Do you -- do you see that?

20        A.   Mm-hmm.

21        Q.   Is it true --

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   -- that the Uzice Corps were taking away Muslim men when they

24     arrived?

25        A.   Yes, it is true.

Page 2352

 1        Q.   And how did that make your community and, more importantly, how

 2     did that make you feel during that time?

 3        A.   Awful.

 4        Q.   And was there a lot of talk in your community, in your

 5     neighbourhood amongst the Muslim people about this oppression that was

 6     coming to you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   What kind of things were discussed?

 9        A.   The taking away of men.

10        Q.   Was escape or running away discussed?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Why did you not leave at this time?  Why did you not escape

13     Visegrad?

14        A.   All those who tried to escape from Visegrad were stopped some

15     place or another.

16        Q.   Now, at this point in time you state that the Muslim men were

17     kept as prisoners at the Vilina Vlas Hotel but there were no killings

18     yet.  How did you know the men were kept at the Vilina Vlas Hotel?

19        A.   The information came from Serb men who were not terrorists.

20        Q.   Did you speak personally with any of these men?

21        A.   Yes, I did.

22        Q.   And they also told you there was no killings yet?

23        A.   That, I don't remember.

24        Q.   Was there fighting already going on between the Serbs and the

25     Bosnian forces?

Page 2353

 1        A.   [No interpretation].

 2        Q.   Could you repeat yourself, ma'am?  There was no interpretation.

 3        A.   In Visegrad there was never any fighting between the Serbs and

 4     the Muslims.

 5        Q.   Now, it's -- according to your statement, it's at this time "the

 6     crimes began sometime in April this year when townsman Milan Lukic came

 7     from Serbia after spending four years in Obrenovac."  Do you see that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And it further states that:  "He came as a member of the White

10     Eagles.  He had his six White Eagles --"

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   How did you know this?  How did you know that Milan Lukic was

13     back in town?

14        A.   All of the people in that town knew that Milan Lukic had returned

15     to town.  As soon as he returned, he started with his mischief.

16        Q.   And so there was a lot of talk amongst your countrymen about a

17     Milan Lukic.  Is that true?

18        A.   Yes, that's true.

19        Q.   Now, when you first heard the name Milan Lukic, was your memory

20     refreshed that you knew who this man was?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   How long have you lived in Bikavac?

23        A.   My whole life.

24        Q.   And in the house that you identified for the Prosecutor and you

25     marked as your home, how long had you lived in that home?

Page 2354

 1        A.   My whole life I spent in my home.

 2        Q.   And so you -- that was the home where you spent your time as a

 3     small child, as a young girl, a young woman, never having moved or

 4     relocated?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   So there was a time that you had moved from the house or you'd

 7     stayed there the whole time?  Please clarify.

 8        A.   We always lived in the same place, and -- and then at some point

 9     to our other house.

10        Q.   And is that the house right next door?

11        A.   Yes, that's right.

12        Q.   And when did you move from the old house into the new house?  Can

13     you remember the year?

14        A.   We never really moved.  We just went from one house to the other.

15        Q.   Now, you stated that you did not or you were not reminded that

16     you knew who this Milan Lukic was.  When were you first reminded that you

17     knew who this Milan Lukic was?

18        A.   When people started speaking about him.  My brother started

19     telling us that this was a schoolmate of his.

20        Q.   And when did you remember smoking cigarettes with him?

21        A.   I never smoked with Milan Lukic or in his company, but we were

22     together in the same group behind the school.

23        Q.   Well, that's -- to me that's sort of the same thing, even -- did

24     you speak to him during these times?

25        A.   No.

Page 2355

 1        Q.   Did your brother speak with him during these times?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Was your brother friends with him?

 4        A.   I don't know.

 5        Q.   Well, I believe you stated that they were in -- were they in the

 6     same classroom or just the same class together?

 7        A.   The same classroom, the same class.  The same thing, isn't it.

 8        Q.   Well, how many students were there in the secondly school in

 9     Visegrad?

10        A.   I don't know exactly, but there were more than a thousand

11     students.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

13             MR. ALARID:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We are going to take the break now.

15             The witness will leave the courtroom before we do.  When she has

16     left, I will give a decision of the Trial Chamber on a Prosecution

17     motion.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I take this opportunity to give the Chamber's

20     decision on the Prosecution motion which was filed on the 22nd of

21     September for leave to add an updated statement and tables for the

22     witness Amor Masovic, director of the state commission for tracing

23     missing persons in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24             In the normal course of proceedings the Defence teams would have

25     two weeks in which to respond to the motion, that is Monday, the 6th of

Page 2356

 1     October, but the Prosecution list of witnesses for the remainder of the

 2     case indicates that this witness will be called on Wednesday, the 1st of

 3     October.  In the Chamber's view this is a case in which the practice of

 4     expedited response would not be appropriate for a variety of reasons.

 5     For one, it would deprive the Defence teams of the usual time to prepare

 6     their responses at a time when there is already a high level of motions

 7     in the Chamber.  Fourteen motions have been filed in the past three weeks

 8     alone with more than 300 pages of attachments to review.

 9             The updated table and charts will require close comparison with

10     those already disclosed, and tomorrow is the last sitting day before

11     Masovic is scheduled to be heard.  In the circumstances, the Chamber

12     rules that Amor Masovic is not to be called until after the Defence teams

13     have had time to respond in the normal way and the Chamber has determined

14     the motion.

15             We are adjourned for half an hour.

16                           --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The witness is being brought in, I presume.

19             Mr. Alarid, are you in a position to tell us how much time you

20     will need?

21             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I could -- the problem is -- and I

22     think it's just from a practical perspective, the responses and delays

23     between the answers are so slow and necessary of course by the addition

24     of the French translation.  That's why I can't really give an honest

25     estimate.  If we were going question and answer in rapid succession I

Page 2357

 1     could probably be a little more precise but that's the problem.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  At some time during the proceedings during the

 3     session we'll have to address some practical issues.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour --

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

 6             MR. GROOME:  I believe the witness may not -- if it's the French

 7     that's slowing us down, I think if that were explained to the witness she

 8     may very well be willing to speak in her native tongue, B/C/S, if the

 9     Chamber thought that would speed it up.  I would ask the Chamber to

10     consider addressing that with her.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm not sure I'd want to ask, because she's

12     already explained why she wants to speak.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I could maybe add one piece of

14     information to that.  She did inform me during the course of proofing

15     that if she were questioned by someone who spoke her native tongue, she

16     would then be responding to that person in her native tongue because she

17     felt she could be more precise, so that's why I suggested it.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, may I ask you something?  You are

20     testifying in French, and our experience is that it takes a little longer

21     with the translation and therefore with the entire proceedings.  Would

22     you be prepared to testify in your native tongue?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.  Thank you very much.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

Page 2358

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid then.

 2             MR. ALARID:

 3        Q.   Ma'am, when we went on the lunch break we were talking about how

 4     you and your brother originally knew Milan Lukic.  You indicated that you

 5     were four years older than Milan, at least in school?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you -- but you also indicated that your brother was in the

 8     same homeroom as Milan?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, what do you mean four years older

11     than Milan in school?

12             MR. ALARID:  She was four years ahead of him, I guess, but of

13     course someone could be a different age and still be four years ahead in

14     school.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So, Witness, is that what you meant, you were

16     four years ahead of Milan in school?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I was three years ahead of

18     Milan.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

20             MR. ALARID:

21        Q.   And just to clarify that, ma'am, what's the year of your birth?

22     Just the year.

23        A.   3rd December, 1962.

24        Q.   And so if -- in your statement you indicate that Milan Lukic was

25     born in 1968, and so I just -- that's why I asked you the question,

Page 2359

 1     because that's a six-year differential in your ages, but yet you're three

 2     years apart in school.

 3        A.   I never said that Milan Lukic's age.  I said -- I said -- in

 4     1968.  In 1968.  I'm sorry I never said Milan Lukic's year of birth was

 5     1968.  I said my brother's year of birth was 1968.

 6        Q.   And that is -- but because your brother's year of birth is 1968,

 7     you indicate in your statement in front of you that that is why you know

 8     Milan was born in 1968.  Is that true?

 9        A.   My brother was born in 1968, and he went to school -- he started

10     going to school one year earlier than envisaged by the law in Bosnia and

11     Herzegovina, whereas I, during my schooling, lost one year.  So that made

12     the difference between us five years.

13             Now, as for Milan Lukic, I don't know exactly what year he was

14     born.

15        Q.   Well, ma'am, I'm just going off what's in your statement in front

16     of you.  So that's why I'm asking you to clarify.

17             And isn't it true that you ended that paragraph, that first

18     paragraph, with that you hope that it will show that Milan Lukic is the

19     criminal most responsible for destruction of human lives in Visegrad?

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

22             MR. GROOME:  It's a blatant misquote of what's there.  It's "If

23     the truth about what happened at Visegrad comes out one day, and I hope

24     it does."  That's the context that "hope" was used in, not that she hopes

25     that Milan Lukic is going to be implicated.

Page 2360

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's very correct, Mr. Alarid.

 2             MR. ALARID:  Well, I was trying to redact, but I understand.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, you can't redact in that way without putting

 4     the whole thing in context.

 5             MR. ALARID:  Absolutely.

 6        Q.   So just taking the full sentence into context, ma'am:  "If the

 7     truth about what happens -- or happened in Visegrad comes out one day,

 8     and I hope it does, it will show that Milan Lukic is the criminal most

 9     responsible for the destruction of human lives in Visegrad."  You said

10     that in your statement at the beginning, did you not?

11        A.   And I confirm that now here today.

12        Q.   Are you stating through your testimony?

13        A.   Now, this minute, I confirm that if any investigation is carried

14     out it will be established that Milan Lukic is the worst criminal in

15     Visegrad who destroyed men, women, and children.

16        Q.   Now, you go on in your statement to state that:  "According to

17     the records about the Territorial Defence, it is certain that 6.600

18     members, inhabitants, excuse me, of Visegrad were either taken to camps

19     or killed."  Where did you get that information, ma'am?

20        A.   I don't remember.

21        Q.   And you indicated that there were three camps, the Prelovo

22     village camp, the Vilina Vlas, and another one in Zamnica.  Is that true?

23        A.   I confirm that, yes.  That's correct.

24        Q.   And how did you confirm that, ma'am?

25        A.   Based on the testimony of persons who escaped these camps.

Page 2361

 1        Q.   And just in terms of -- I believe this paragraph is talking the

 2     Territorial Defence in and of itself and stating that:  "They took

 3     possession of their cars, gold, money, foreign currency, and technical

 4     appliances and took them away and killed them."  Who are you meaning by

 5     "they"?

 6        A.   Milan and the group that he organised.  Milan who organised that.

 7        Q.   And is this again the group of six members?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, is one of those -- you indicate in your statement that one

10     of these six members was a woman?

11        A.   The seventh person was a woman.

12        Q.   And she killed men by cutting off their genitals and then they

13     drained the blood from them and sent it to Serbia.

14        A.   I don't remember that.

15        Q.   Did you hear about that, or did you witness that?

16        A.   I don't remember.

17        Q.   But it was in your statement, and can you read it there from

18     before?

19        A.   Maybe.  It's been many years.

20        Q.   And you indicate that they, again -- every time you refer to

21     "they" are you referring to Milan Lukic and these six or seven other

22     people?

23        A.   I mean Milan Lukic and the group that he organised and the Serb

24     locals of Visegrad who assisted him in destroying people in Visegrad.

25        Q.   And --

Page 2362

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Mr. Groome.

 3             MR. GROOME:  This document that's still being -- that's

 4     continually being referred to as a statement, could I ask Mr. Alarid to

 5     please establish with the witness that it is her statement by showing her

 6     a signature page or something else.  It's my information that it's

 7     actually an excerpt from a book written by someone else that includes an

 8     account of what she has said, and I'm not sure how much is hers and how

 9     much is the author of the book.

10             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour, I guess the point of contention

11     is noted.  However, the Court just introduced a newspaper article that

12     was written in both first and third person supposedly that was a

13     statement of my client but this entire thing --

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No.  Let us see the source of the document,

15     Mr. Alarid.

16             MR. ALARID:  We do not have the source.  It was tendered by the

17     Prosecution.  This came in their batch.  We have no way of verifying this

18     since it came in their disclosures.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What do you mean tendered by the Prosecution?

20             MR. ALARID:  Meaning it was disclosed to us.  It was part of

21     their disclosure batches.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But tendered is the wrong word.

23             MR. ALARID:  Disclosed.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It was disclosed to you.

25             MR. ALARID:  Yes.  That's the only reason I have it and it's

Page 2363

 1     written in the first person so that's why I assume it's a statement.

 2     When someone said, "I, I, I," over again it seems to be logical that it

 3     was the statement of the person.

 4             MR. GROOME:  It's just a dangerous assumption to make when

 5     there's no signature on the page itself, Your Honour, or any of the pages

 6     as far as I can tell.

 7             MR. ALARID:  That is true.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, what is the principal purpose of --

10     behind your use of this statement?

11             MR. ALARID:  To -- well, first and foremost to state if she had

12     said this or believed it or believed it to be true.  I believe there

13     are -- if you put it into play with the other video excerpts which are

14     the lion's shares of our other statements, if you will, I think they are

15     somewhat consistent all the way across the board with what she states,

16     although there's some minor discrepancies between each but that would be

17     natural in terms of an interview situation.  But I think it is very

18     probative, because it shows the witness's state of mind, perception, and

19     an ideation of what the war was at the time and an ideation of who Milan

20     Lukic was and what he was at the time, including giving a detailed

21     account or as detailed maybe as was here in court today.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But in the absence of anything from you as to

23     its source --

24             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour --

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  -- and its authenticity, what weight are we to

Page 2364

 1     attach to it?

 2             MR. ALARID:  Well, I would agree in the loose confines of

 3     admissibility in the courts I think that it's up to you to give it the

 4     proper weight, of course, at the end but it would not affect the

 5     admissibility of a document, especially considering we got it from the

 6     Prosecution.  I mean it's not like I'm coming to --

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please stop saying you got it from the

 8     Prosecution.  The Prosecutor disclosed it to you.  When the Prosecutor

 9     discloses a document he does not make any admission as to its

10     admissibility.  He's obliged to disclose it.  He's not saying it's

11     admissible.

12             MR. ALARID:  Well, I would agree with that, Your Honour, but we

13     have no other way of doing due diligence.  If you look at the history of

14     this case this was a delayed disclosure case and so we didn't get any of

15     the material in --

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't want a mystery from you.  We've heard

17     that history before so I don't want that.  Now I'd like you to conclude

18     your examination on the basis of this document as quickly as possible and

19     move on to another subject.  You are right.  It will be for the Trial

20     Chamber to attach what weight we wish to the document and to the

21     witness's response to your questions on it.

22             MR. ALARID:  Well, and, Your Honour, you will be able to see for

23     yourself and I guess it was really just how it fell into my -- into my

24     binder here, but I think there's a lot of consistencies in the story

25     between the interview transcripts as well as this, so I mean as we make

Page 2365

 1     our final submissions there will be a detailed compare and contrast

 2     between the statements done.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, proceed.

 4             MR. ALARID:

 5        Q.   Now, ma'am, did you believe at that there were people being

 6     executed underneath the hotel in a pipe where they were gassing people?

 7     Or suffocating, I'm sorry.

 8        A.   Yes.  I think they did that, yes.

 9        Q.   And was this something you observed or something you heard?

10        A.   I heard that, and I cannot confirm it with any certainty.

11        Q.   And of course you heard that they were bringing girls as young as

12     12 and 14 to the hotel for their whims and needs, and you heard that as

13     well?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And you had heard that there were some survivors of this tragedy;

16     correct?

17        A.   I don't remember.

18        Q.   And -- but you did disclose in all your statements, of course,

19     that VG-32 had helped you and assisted you and you'd spoken with him;

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And of course VG-32 -- and VG-32 had disclosed to you that he had

23     survived a firing squad.  Isn't that true?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And do you see the paragraph mentioning VG-32's name?  Is it in

Page 2366

 1     front of you or do we have to go one more page?  I think we might have to

 2     go one more page.  It would either be at the very bottom or the top of

 3     the next page.  And maybe the court assistant could go because I do not

 4     see his name.

 5             MR. ALARID:  Could the court assistant please go to the second

 6     page of the B/C/S version, please.

 7        Q.   And do you see there at the second paragraph, did you see VG-32's

 8     name?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And just looking at that, I notice that there is no mention of --

11     of Milan Lukic as being one of the offenders in that firing squad.  Is

12     that true?

13        A.   I don't understand your question.

14        Q.   In that paragraph there's no mention of Milan Lukic as being one

15     of the executors or potential executors of VG-32.  Isn't that true?

16        A.   VG-32 confirmed it with us himself.

17        Q.   And -- but again, though, this was hearsay information that you

18     received well after you'd escaped from Visegrad.  Is that true?

19        A.   Yes.  VG-32 himself told me about the situation.

20        Q.   Now, I would like to back up a little bit and talk about Milan

21     Lukic.  Can you describe him, the last time you saw him before the war?

22        A.   He was a tall man.

23        Q.   How tall?

24        A.   I don't know.  A young man.

25        Q.   How young was he the last time you saw him, if you can tell us.

Page 2367

 1        A.   I can't be specific.

 2        Q.   And can you describe his hair, its colour?

 3        A.   Brown.

 4        Q.   How did -- as a younger man how did he wear his hair?

 5        A.   Like all men.  Nothing specific, nothing particular.

 6        Q.   Well, did he wear it short, long, or medium?

 7        A.   It was a normal hair length, standard length for men.

 8        Q.   If you could just describe what standard length for men is in

 9     your words.  If you can, ma'am.

10        A.   I would like to try and explain in precise way.  I want to find

11     the right words to describe it.  Can I show you on my own head?

12        Q.   As long as you describe it as you do, ma'am, so the record can

13     pick up your words.

14        A.   This length, standard length, and there was nothing special,

15     nothing peculiar that would attract my attention.

16        Q.   Do you remember his eye colour, ma'am?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Do you remember any identifying features of his face, anything

19     peculiar that would remind you that it's Milan?

20        A.   I don't remember.  I don't remember.

21        Q.   As a younger man did he wear any facial hair?

22        A.   I don't remember.  Last time I saw him -- the last time I saw him

23     he did not have a beard.

24        Q.   And are you talking about 1992 or before when he was in school,

25     because I'm talking about when he was younger, when he was in school.

Page 2368

 1        A.   I'm sorry.  When he was going to school he did not have a beard.

 2        Q.   And what about in 1992?  Can you describe him?

 3        A.   Similarly, I can tell you he was a young man, tall.  His hair was

 4     always dark brown.

 5        Q.   How did he wear it?

 6        A.   I cannot understand.

 7        Q.   How -- what style was his hair cut?

 8        A.   I don't remember anymore.

 9        Q.   Now, your brother, what school did he graduate from?  Did he

10     graduate from a specific school or class?

11        A.   He completed school for welders.

12        Q.   And do you remember in what year, ma'am, he graduated?

13        A.   I don't remember anymore.

14        Q.   Now, what was he wearing in 1992?

15        A.   Who?

16        Q.   Milan Lukic.

17        A.   Once I saw him in black clothing.

18        Q.   And a coat, I believe?

19        A.   And after that, later -- yes, he had a coat.

20        Q.   And after that?

21        A.   Later I saw him in a regular military uniform.

22        Q.   What was the colour of the military uniform?  What was the style?

23        A.   It was brownish with green -- green insignia, green markings.

24        Q.   Anything -- any hats?

25        A.   No.

Page 2369

 1        Q.   Now, I'd like to go back to the history --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness said no.

 3             MR. ALARID:

 4        Q.   I'd like to go back to the history a little bit, and in the

 5     statement that I saw it said:  "After the White Eagles committed their

 6     crimes and left, Milan Lukic and his six White Eagles from Obrenovac

 7     remained in Visegrad, and he joined the so-called Serbian Territorial

 8     Defence who were in fact local Chetniks, and he continued to commit these

 9     crimes."

10             First I'd like to ask you is this, is how did you know that White

11     Eagles had left?  What gave you that information?

12        A.   I can't answer precisely.

13        Q.   Well, when the next -- the next bit of information is that:

14     "Milan Lukic and his White Eagles from Obrenovac remained."  How did you

15     know that?

16        A.   I don't remember that time, that moment.

17        Q.   How did you know he joined the Territorial Defence?

18        A.   I never said he joined the Territorial Defence.

19        Q.   Did you believe that from some source?

20        A.   I don't remember.

21        Q.   Now, on direct examination, and I believe in your statement you

22     indicated that you had a view of the new bridge of Visegrad from your

23     home in Bikavac.  Is that true?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   How far away is your house from the new bridge?

Page 2370

 1        A.   Two kilometres, roughly speaking.

 2        Q.   And in your statement and in later video interviews, you

 3     indicated that you knew that:  "147 men were killed at the new bridge the

 4     night after the first day of the Kurban Bajram.  The Chetniks brought

 5     them, threw them off the bridge and shot them as they were falling into

 6     the water.  I watched this with my own eyes."

 7             Do you believe that?

 8        A.   I believe that, and I saw the Chetniks killing those men on

 9     Bajram day.  I cannot be sure only that there were exactly 147.

10        Q.   And how are you sure that there was exactly 147?

11             MR. GROOME:  She just testified she was not sure.

12             MR. ALARID:  I cannot be sure only that there were exactly 147.

13     I'll ask her to clarify.

14        Q.   Do you know if there was 147?

15        A.   I just said I couldn't answer that precisely.

16        Q.   But you do --

17             MR. ALARID:  Now, could court assistant bring up 1D20-0016,

18     please.  That's I believe incorrect.  It's 1D20-0016.  So it's 20 instead

19     of 1D10.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, unfortunately nothing comes up in

21     the system under 1D20-0016.

22             MR. ALARID:  We uploaded it, Your Honour, but I do have a single

23     copy we could use for the ELMO.

24        Q.   Now, ma'am, this is -- what's being placed next to you on -- on

25     the ELMO, and you probably can see it on your television screen, is a

Page 2371

 1     photograph I received from the Office of the Prosecutor, and it has

 2     several Xs or crosses marking places in and around Visegrad.  There is a

 3     cross at Bikavac.  Do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And there is another cross to the left of that for the old

 6     bridge, the Stari Most bridge.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And then at the top of the page there is a bridge across the

 9     Drina that's not marked with a cross.  Is that the new bridge?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And so it's this distance between the -- let's say the X in

12     Bikavac and the new bridge that is approximately two kilometres.  Is that

13     fair?

14        A.   Yes.  Yes.

15        Q.   Would it be fair to say that it's very difficult to see something

16     that's two kilometres away even from a balcony?

17        A.   I have to be precise when answering this question.  The new

18     bridge that I see from my balcony is much closer as the crow flies than

19     two kilometres, and for that reason at that short distance between the

20     house and the bridge we have a much better view than if you took the road

21     towards the bridge.

22        Q.   Do you agree that this is a good aerial view of Visegrad and

23     showing that old bridge, the new bridge, and Bikavac?

24        A.   I cannot confirm that.

25             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, regardless, I would tender the exhibit.

Page 2372

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Now, Mr. Alarid and the parties in

 2     general, I believe we now have to make an assessment as to the situation

 3     relating to this witness's testimony.  Are you in a better position now

 4     to indicate the time that you have?  In any event, I'll ask the court

 5     deputy to let me know how much time you have used.  The Prosecutor used

 6     two hours and a 11 minutes.

 7             How much time -- how much more time would you be using?

 8             MR. ALARID:  Well, I will definitely exhaust my allotted time,

 9     Your Honour, but I would like a little consideration considering the pace

10     of the Prosecution's testimony was a little bit quicker.  Maybe that was

11     because of the, you know, some of the facts being injected in the

12     questions, but I just feel pressed only because there's longer pauses on

13     the record between my questions and the answers, and so I -- that's why I

14     have such a hard time telling you.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic, how much time would you be using?

16             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, it is very difficult for me to say.

17     Maybe 15 minutes, maybe half an hour, maybe 40 minutes, but I will try to

18     make all examination as short as I can.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, it's clear that we will not finish with

20     this witness's testimony by 1.45.  May have a word with the legal

21     officer, please.

22                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, we have been considering various options

24     as to the best way in which to conclude this witness's testimony.

25                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

Page 2373

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  As I said, we have been considering the

 2     best way in which to conclude this witness's testimony, and I'd like her

 3     to know that we have regard to the condition that she's in, that she's a

 4     person who has been severely traumatised, but we have tried our very best

 5     to see whether there was any way of continuing this afternoon and

 6     concluding her testimony, but it is simply not possible having regard to

 7     all the circumstances, including not least of all the obligation to be

 8     fair to the Defence.

 9             It looks, therefore, that the witness will have to return,

10     regrettably, next week, and if it is next week, it will have to be on

11     Thursday, because on Wednesday we already have, I believe, a

12     video-conference -- a video-conference link schedule.

13             Having said that, please continue, Mr. Alarid.

14             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             Could we admit the photo, Your Honour?

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

17             MR. ALARID:  Could the court assistant see if another photo will

18     call up hopefully 1D20-0022.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the previous document, 1D20-0016

20     becomes Exhibit number 1D54.

21             MR. ALARID:

22        Q.   Do you see --

23             MR. ALARID:  And could we get slightly smaller, please, I

24     believe?

25        Q.   Do you recognise that this photo is of Visegrad?

Page 2374

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Can you see the Bikavac neighbourhood?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. ALARID:  Would the court assistant please give the witness a

 5     marking device for the photograph.

 6        Q.   Would you mind at the bottom left-hand corner where there's no

 7     houses or anything to please sign the photo, please, or the screen.  ZT

 8     is fine.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   And, ma'am, could you please put a circle, a small circle where

11     your home is in Bikavac, please.

12        A.   I'm sorry, but this is a relatively small-scale image and I'm

13     unable to locate it.

14        Q.   But you can see the new bridge?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Put a small X on that, please.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   And if I were to just point your attention to the Bikavac

19     neighbourhood, which is middle right at the very bottom of the page,

20     would that help orient you to the photograph?

21        A.   I have to know exactly what I'm doing, yet I can't really

22     pinpoint it in this image.

23        Q.   That's fine, ma'am.  Now, from where your balcony is, though, you

24     testified on direct examination that you could hear the bodies in the

25     water from the distance of your home to the new bridge?

Page 2375

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Doesn't it seem like that would be extremely difficult

 3     considering it's two kilometres away?

 4        A.   It is not that difficult.  It's very easy to see everything that

 5     goes on from my balcony, what goes on at the new bridge.

 6        Q.   Well, ma'am, you indicated that this was at night and that you

 7     saw vehicles with their headlights on and then turned them off on the

 8     bridge.  Is that true?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And so it might be okay to see headlights at two kilometres away,

11     but I put to you that it would be very difficult to hear something

12     hitting the water at two kilometres away.

13        A.   I can only confirm that you can hear the sound.  When a body

14     drops into the water, you can hear the echo of the body splashing against

15     the water.

16             MR. ALARID:  I'd like to admit this photograph, Your Honour, as

17     marked.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, becomes Exhibit 1D55.

20             MR. ALARID:

21        Q.   And can you tell me what date the first day of the Kurban Bajram

22     was in June of 1992?

23        A.   I can't remember.

24        Q.   Can you tell me what day of the week it was?

25        A.   No, I cannot.

Page 2376

 1        Q.   How did you know it was the first day of the Kurban Bajram?

 2        A.   Because this was a Muslim holiday.

 3        Q.   How long was it before June 26th?

 4        A.   I -- I can't remember any more.

 5        Q.   And in your statement you indicated that on one occasion you saw

 6     the heads of two men and a woman without bodies on the part of the old

 7     bridge.  Did you see that?

 8        A.   Yes, that's precisely what I said, and that's what I saw as well.

 9        Q.   When did you see that, ma'am?

10        A.   I can't pinpoint the date for you.

11        Q.   How many days before the house was burned that you were in did

12     you see that, ma'am?

13        A.   I can't say exactly.

14        Q.   Was it before or after the Kurban Bajram, ma'am?

15        A.   I don't remember anymore.

16        Q.   Is it true that you witnessed Milan Lukic slit the throat of

17     65-year-old Hasan Brko and who was a blood donor and had given 162 litres

18     of blood during his life?

19        A.   I can't answer precisely.

20        Q.   You either witnessed that tragedy, ma'am, or you didn't.

21        A.   I witnessed that tragedy.

22        Q.   Where did it happen?

23        A.   It happened in the town of Visegrad.

24        Q.   What street?

25        A.   The main street in Visegrad, and I no longer remember its name.

Page 2377

 1        Q.   What date?

 2        A.   I no longer remember.

 3        Q.   How long before the fire, ma'am?

 4        A.   I don't remember how long before.  It wasn't before the fire.

 5        Q.   It was after the fire?

 6        A.   It was before the fire, yes, yes.  It was before the fire.  I

 7     apologise.

 8        Q.   Was it before the Kurban Bajram?

 9        A.   I don't remember that.

10        Q.   What time of day was it?

11        A.   Afternoon.

12        Q.   How did you get to the main street in Visegrad?

13        A.   I was on my way into town to try and get some supplies.

14        Q.   And when you saw this, where were you?

15        A.   The main street in Visegrad.

16        Q.   Please orientate us using the map that's in front of you or the

17     picture.  Can you do that?

18        A.   [No interpretation].

19        Q.   You can mark -- I believe you can mark this new picture, ma'am,

20     with that pen.  Do you want to mark it where you believe you saw this

21     throat slitting?

22        A.   I'm marking it for you.  This street, the main street.

23        Q.   You can go ahead and put a line on that street, ma'am.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   You draw -- you drew what's kind of an oblong.  Could you put an

Page 2378

 1     X marking the spot.

 2        A.   It's difficult while using this photograph because I can't

 3     actually see the street in it.

 4        Q.   And you indicated that this man walked 300 metres before he died.

 5     Is that 300 metres included in that mark that you just made?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Could you draw the 300 metres, ma'am?

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We must stop after this part of the evidence is

 9     concluded.

10             MR. ALARID:  Absolutely.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only show you the direction.

12             MR. ALARID:

13        Q.   That would be fine, ma'am.  Show me the direction.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   And did you see him fall down and die?

16        A.   Yes, I did see him fall down, but I didn't hang around to find

17     out whether he was dead or not.

18        Q.   Can you put an X where he fell down and died, ma'am?

19        A.   I can't put an X there because I can't see where the street is

20     exactly.  I see the town, and I could tell you the rough location of the

21     street but no more than that.

22        Q.   Can you remember the name of the street, the intersection,

23     something like that?

24        A.   I don't remember the street or what it was called, but I do

25     remember the old pharmacy building.

Page 2379

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

 2             MR. ALARID:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We're running into a problem.  One problem, of

 4     course, is that the time to adjourn has passed, and we are infringing on

 5     the time of the case that will be tried subsequently without consulting

 6     them.  But the other problem is that I have received information that

 7     makes it necessary for us to make another effort, Mr. Groome, to see

 8     whether we could conclude this witness's testimony today.  So what I'm

 9     going to do is to adjourn the case now and the parties are to -- to be on

10     call in the event that we find it possible to resume at -- at 2.15.  The

11     officers of the Chambers will be in touch with the parties.

12             In that event, we would hope that we would be able in an hour and

13     perhaps a half to conclude this witness's testimony.

14             MR. ALARID:  We'll just go to the Defence room, Your Honour, and

15     wait for the news from the Court.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You will have a newspaper to read.

17             MR. ALARID:  No.  I got the book -- the binder to read, Judge.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.  We are adjourned.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20                           --- Recess taken at 1.50 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 2.19 p.m.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'd like to thank on behalf of the Chamber

23     everyone involved for the tremendous effort that has been made to have

24     this witness's evidence concluded today.  So I thank the Defence, the

25     Prosecutor, the interpreters, the Victims and Witnesses Unit.

Page 2380

 1     Regrettably we are informed that the witness is, for health reasons,

 2     unable to continue her testimony today, and we'll have to have her

 3     testimony rescheduled, and so you will be advised as to the date when

 4     that will take place.

 5             I have two matters that I need to raise, and the first is the

 6     Prosecution motion to admit material pursuant to Rule 92 quater, filed

 7     the 8th of September.  We understand that the translation of the medical

 8     reports is now available, and these are to be filed today together with

 9     any submissions the Prosecution may wish to make.  The Defence teams will

10     then have until the 9th of October to respond.

11             Now may we move into private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

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11  Page 2381 redacted. Private session.















Page 2382

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.26 p.m.

 7                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day

 8                           of October, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.