Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2678

 1                           Thursday, 9 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.53 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I could just address you briefly.

 7     The first is, yesterday morning, Mr. Alarid raised a matter with respect

 8     to a motion that he had to compel disclosure.  We submitted a filing

 9     yesterday evening in relation to this.  Circumstances have changed since

10     the original filing, and I believe that the reasons for our original

11     request to redact the statement are no longer sufficient to -- to seek

12     the relief that we were requesting, and that is reflected in the

13     submission of yesterday evening.

14             I have provided unredacted copy to both Mr. Alarid and Mr. Cepic

15     this morning.  So that's my report on that matter.

16             The other thing I do want to mention to the Court is we ended

17     yesterday with Mr. Alarid making a motion to strike the testimony of

18     VG-142, as well as to exclude from evidence Prosecution Exhibits or

19     currently marked for identification P147 to 150.

20             I do want to address the Chamber on that matter; and upon

21     thinking about it overnight, it's actually a bit more complex than I can

22     deal with very shortly.  So I would ask that after the witness testifies

23     today, but before the Chamber renders its decision, that I be given an

24     opportunity to address the Chamber on those issues.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well, Mr. Groome.

Page 2679

 1             Mr. Cepic.

 2             MR. CEPIC:  This is to continue my practice that I always have

 3     something to raise, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You have a proclivity to rise that needs to be

 5     curbed.

 6             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm well aware that this

 7     Honourable Trial Chamber is currently considering the issue I'm raising,

 8     but I would like to state, just for the record from our Defence team,

 9     this is an issue of 65 ter lists.  We have a deadline for 17th of October

10     of 2008, but, as we know now, the OTP has not completed their case; and

11     according to Rule 65 ter (G), it has to be after the closing of

12     Prosecution case, just for the record.

13             Thank you very much.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Cepic.

15             The witness.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may begin.

21             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Good morning, Your Honours.  Counsel's name is

22     Cole for the Prosecution this morning.  With this witness, there are

23     protective measures in place.  He's to be referred to by a pseudonym,

24     screened from the public, and there is to be facial and voice distortion.

25             Could I ask that the court usher please pass this pseudonym sheet

Page 2680

 1     to the witness.

 2                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VG-017

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           Examination by Mr. Cole:

 5        Q.   VG-017, can you hear clearly?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, you have been granted protective measures by the Court in

 8     the form of screening from the public, facial and voice distortion, and

 9     the use of a pseudonym, which is VG-017.

10             On the piece of paper before you, can you confirm that your name

11     and date of birth are correct?

12        A.   Yes, the information is correct.

13        Q.   Could you -- could you please sign that pseudonym sheet.

14             MR. COLE:  Could the court usher please show the pseudonym sheet

15     to the Defence and to the Chamber, and I would ask that the pseudonym

16     sheet be entered into evidence, under seal.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  It will become Exhibit number P151, under seal,

18     Your Honours.

19             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, I would now ask that the court usher

20     provide the witness with a pseudonym reference sheet.

21             MR. CEPIC:  I'm sorry.  Just for the record, the date of birth

22     is -- is wrong according to statement.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness confirm whether that is so.

24             Is the date of birth correct, Witness?

25             My microphone is on.

Page 2681

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.

 3             MR. COLE:

 4        Q.   VG-017, the reference sheet in front you contains the names of

 5     persons you may mention or be asked about in your testimony.  Next to

 6     their names are pseudonyms for them.

 7             I would ask if you could kindly use the pseudonym instead of the

 8     name of the person if you refer to any of these persons during your

 9     testimony.

10             Do you understand this?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. COLE:  Your Honours, could I just indicate that, in a proper

13     way, I hope to be able to lead some uncontroversial matters from this

14     witness so that we may conclude his evidence today.  Of course, there may

15     be proper objections, but I'd like to move through the evidence, and I'm

16     sure the Court would, so that he's concluded by the end of the day.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, proceed.

18             MR. COLE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   VG-017, what is your ethnicity?

20        A.   Muslim.  Islamic, if you like.

21        Q.   And from what country are you?

22        A.   The former Yugoslavia, now Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, could I ask that we go briefly into

24     private session.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

Page 2682

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Page 2683

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17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

19             MR. COLE:

20        Q.   Now, VG-017, did there come a time when the conflict in Bosnia

21     reached your village in Visegrad in 1992?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And can you recall when the Uzice Corps entered your village?

24        A.   I don't remember the date, but the year was 1992.

25        Q.   And did the local Serb forces enter your village as well at about

Page 2684

 1     that time?

 2        A.   They were there throughout.

 3        Q.   Now, did you subsequently move from your address in the

 4     settlement or village into the centre of Visegrad?  Please don't say the

 5     address you moved to.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And do you recall a time when some soldiers arrived at that

 8     address to search the address?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, could we please go briefly into private

11     session?

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

13                           [Private session]

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22                           [Open Session]

23             MR. COLE:  Can the witness please be shown the photograph with

24     the 65 ter number 178.62.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

Page 2686

 1             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  I have a question for clarification to

 2     the witness.

 3             When you said you left Visegrad on the 18th, did you flee

 4     Visegrad or were you evacuated from Visegrad?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I fled, but, at the same time, I

 6     was expelled.

 7             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Thank you.

 8             MR. COLE:

 9        Q.   VG-017, could you please indicate when you can see the photograph

10     on the screen before you?

11        A.   This is Dusce, and this is the furniture factory.

12        Q.   The large complex of buildings that we can see in the photo

13     running the length of the photo, next to the river, can you confirm that

14     as the Varda factory?

15        A.   Yes, it is.  It's also a sawmill.

16        Q.   And the large river running across the photograph from left to

17     right also, confirm that as the Drina River?

18        A.   That's right.

19        Q.   And you can confirm that that is a road which is running

20     diagonally across the photograph below the Varda factory?

21        A.   Yes.  The River Drina is parallel to it, and then there's the

22     road obviously.

23        Q.   And the Drina River flows from which side of the picture to which

24     side?

25        A.   To the right.

Page 2687

 1        Q.   And the direction of Visegrad is on the left or the right of the

 2     photo?

 3        A.   On the right.

 4        Q.   Now, the left of the photograph is a large building next to the

 5     road with a tall chimney stack.  Can you see that?

 6        A.   Yes.  That's the sawmill.

 7             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, I would ask that this photograph be

 8     entered into evidence.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We admit it.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  It's Exhibit number P152, Your Honours.

11             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you.  Could the witness please be shown

12     the photograph 65 ter 178.3.

13             All right.  Let's try this one.  Could the witness please be

14     shown this photograph, it doesn't have a 65 ter number, it is

15     ERN 0544-9983.  The ERN number is 0544-9983.

16        Q.   VG-017, can you see the photograph on the screen before you?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And does that show part of the Varda factory with the Drina River

19     in the foreground?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Can you see almost in the centre of the photograph a car parked

22     with some people standing alongside it?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Running right across the length of the photograph, alongside the

25     river, and just below the car is a long structure.  Can you confirm that

Page 2688

 1     that is a wall?

 2        A.   This wall was built recently, after the war.

 3        Q.   So you can confirm that the wall was not in place in 1992?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   Now, VG-017, did there --

 6             MR. COLE:  Perhaps we'll enter that into evidence.  Could that be

 7     entered into evidence and given a P number at this point, please, Your

 8     Honour.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  It is admitted as Exhibit P153, Your Honours.

11             MR. COLE:  I'm going to ask the witness about that --

12             MR. CEPIC:  I'm sorry.  Could we have some more clarification

13     about the position of factory related to this photo?  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Counsel, would you ask a few more questions

15     about that.

16             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Certainly, sir.

17        Q.   Now, VG-017, on the left of the photograph, just above the wall,

18     there are a number of buildings.  Could you just indicate what buildings

19     as part of the Varda factory you can see in the photograph?

20        A.   This entire compound that looks white, apart from the path

21     outside, all of that belongs to the Varda factory.

22        Q.   And can you -- amongst the buildings, is there a workshop and an

23     administration building belonging to the Varda factory?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, VG-017, did there come a time in 1992 when you witnessed an

Page 2689

 1     incident at the Varda factory during which some men were taken away from

 2     the factory to the river?

 3             MR. ALARID:  Objection, leading.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, I agree.  Reformulate.

 5             MR. COLE:

 6        Q.   VG-017, I'm going to ask you about an incident that you witnessed

 7     in 1992.  VG-017, you're here today to testify about an incident that you

 8     witnessed in 1992.  You're aware of that, aren't you?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   So I'm now going to ask you about that incident that you

11     witnessed.  Now, you told the Court that you left Visegrad on the 18th of

12     June, 1992.  Was the incident that you are now -- that you now are about

13     to describe at the Varda factory before or after the 18th of June, 1992?

14        A.   Before.

15        Q.   Can you tell the Court about the first thing you noticed of this

16     incident that you're going to describe, the first thing you noticed?

17        A.   I noticed the arrival of a car outside the Varda factory.

18        Q.   Can you remember about what time of the day it was?

19        A.   Between 9.00 and 11.00.

20        Q.   And at what part of the Varda factory did the car arrive?

21        A.   The road was damaged over there, and then on the other side,

22     there was the railroad track, so another road was made on the other side

23     of the factory.

24        Q.   Was there a particular building or structure that the car arrived

25     nearby to?

Page 2690

 1        A.   It passed a building that we refer to as "Dom," which is a rather

 2     large building.

 3        Q.   In the photograph before you, is there a part of the Varda

 4     factory known as a guardhouse visible?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Did the car arrive anywhere near that particular guardhouse that

 7     you can see?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, could we go briefly, please, into private

10     session.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

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Page 2691











11  Page 2691 redacted. Private session.















Page 2692

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 7                           [Open session]

 8             MR. COLE:  Now, VG-017, you were hiding behind --

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

10             MR. COLE:

11        Q.   VG-017, you've told us you were hiding behind some barrels, and

12     it was from this location that you saw a car arrive.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, the position where the car arrived and stopped, could you

15     put a cross at that location, please.

16        A.   Could you repeat that?

17        Q.   Yes.  You've indicated that when you were hiding that day, you

18     saw a car arrive in the Varda premises that day.  Could you mark with a

19     cross the location where the car arrived and stopped, please.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   And above that cross, could you write the English letter C for

22     "car."

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Now, to the left of the letter C that you have just written is a

25     small building, a small browny-red building with what appears to be a

Page 2693

 1     door and a window.  What is that building?

 2        A.   It's the guardhouse.

 3        Q.   Could you draw a circle around the guardhouse.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   And place the English letter G above that circle.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  Now, could you tell us who was in the car or

 8     who got out of the car?

 9        A.   In the beginning, I couldn't say; but later, I heard it was Milan

10     Lukic.

11        Q.   Had you seen the car before that day?

12        A.   Yes, I have.

13        Q.   Who had been driving it on the other occasions you had seen it?

14        A.   About 200 metres from my house, there lived a woman called Behka.

15        Q.   I'll come back to that topic a little later, but could you just

16     tell us on how many other occasions you had seen that particular car at

17     that location?

18        A.   Well, a couple of times.

19        Q.   And where had you seen it?

20        A.   Well, it came to Varda all the time.

21        Q.   Did it ever pass by your house?

22        A.   It passed by all the time, because there was no other way.

23        Q.   Can you tell the Court about an occasion when someone brought

24     that car to your address looking for you?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2694

 1        Q.   Who was the person who came looking for you?

 2        A.   Milan Lukic.

 3        Q.   Did he manage to locate you on that occasion?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   What year was that?

 6        A.   1992.

 7        Q.   Do you know what month it was?

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   Was it before or after the 18th of June, 1992?

10        A.   Everything was before.

11        Q.   Do you know who the owner of that car was?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   What's the name of the owner?

14        A.   It was Zukic.  I can't remember the first name now.  It eludes

15     me.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, did you know that it was her car from seeing her with

17     the car or because someone else told you that?

18        A.   Well, she drove by constantly in that car until the war began.

19        Q.   All right.  We'll return now to the incident that you were

20     witnessing from behind the barrels.

21             How many persons arrived in the car at the Varda factory with

22     Milan Lukic?

23             MR. ALARID:  And I would object to the characterisation of Milan

24     Lukic since the witness has already testified he had no personal

25     knowledge of who that was at the time, since other people told it to him

Page 2695

 1     after the fact, and he was a considerable distance away.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole, is he able to say at that time that

 3     the person in the car was Milan Lukic?

 4             MR. COLE:  I'll clarify that with him, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Now, VG-017, the person who arrived in the car that day, did you

 6     recognise him to be Milan Lukic, or did you -- do you believe the person

 7     to be Milan Lukic because of what other persons have told you?

 8        A.   Yes, I knew it was Milan Lukic.

 9        Q.   How many times had you seen Milan Lukic before that day?

10        A.   Two or three times.

11        Q.   Did you know anything about Milan Lukic's family?

12        A.   I knew a few things.

13        Q.   Did you know where they were from?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Where was that?

16        A.   From Rujiste.

17        Q.   All right.  The vehicle that you saw that day, did it have number

18     plates on it, at the Varda factory, I'm talking about?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Can you remember the colour or the make of car that you saw

21     arriving at the Varda factory?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   So how many persons in total got out of the car?

24        A.   Three.

25        Q.   How was Milan Lukic dressed?

Page 2696

 1        A.   He had plain clothes.

 2        Q.   Was he carrying anything or holding anything in his hands?

 3        A.   An automatic rifle.

 4        Q.   Can you recall if the other persons were carrying or holding

 5     anything?

 6        A.   They all had weapons.

 7        Q.   Now, you've mentioned the building was a guardhouse.  Was there a

 8     factory guard present there?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   What happened after Milan and the others got out of the car?

11        A.   First, they went down to the workshop; they brought ought one

12     man, a mechanic; and they took him to the guardhouse.

13        Q.   Did you recognise the mechanic by name?

14        A.   Yes.  His name was Nedzad Bektas.

15        Q.   What happened next?

16        A.   They went again into Varda and took people out.

17             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, could we please go into private session.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

19          [Private session]  [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in private session.

21             MR. COLE:

22        Q.   Did you see any other workers brought out at the point you're now

23     describing?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Can you tell us the names of any of these workers?

Page 2697

 1        A.   Those were Ibrisim Memisevic ...

 2        Q.   Is there another name that you're trying to think of, or is that

 3     the total of the names you can remember?

 4        A.   Nusret.  I can't remember the last name now.

 5        Q.   Did you include the name of this Nusret, his last name, in the

 6     written statement or statements that you've previously made?

 7        A.   I did, but I can't remember it now.

 8             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, I wonder if the witness could be given

 9     his statement to refresh his memory.  It's a surname, one surname, that

10     we're looking for here.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Certainly.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise.  Would the counsel like to tender

13     the photo with the markings of the witness?

14             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Yes.  Perhaps if we could -- if this photograph

15     hasn't been tendered as an exhibit, if we could get an exhibit number

16     now, please.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be admitted at Exhibit P154, Your

19     Honours.

20             MR. COLE:  Thank you.

21        Q.   VG-017, you're being given copies of the two written statements

22     you made previously.

23             I just ask that you have a look through and see if you can find

24     there the name of the -- the surname of the man Nusret that you have just

25     testified about.

Page 2698

 1             If you have a look at your statement from 1998, the eighth

 2     paragraph.

 3        A.   Aljusevic.  It's Nusret Aljusevic.

 4        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  I'm going to ask you some more questions

 5     now, VG-017.

 6             You've given us the names of three workers from the Varda

 7     factory.  Did you know these men personally?

 8             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, we would object to the statement being

 9     left in front of the witness.  He's reading it.

10             MR. COLE:  Yes.  VG-017 --

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  If you're going to refer to your

12     statement, Witness, please let us know.  If you wish to extract any

13     information from the statement, then let us know first.

14             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you.

15        Q.   VG-017, could you please close the statements now in front of

16     you, and we'll --

17        A.   In case I forget something.

18        Q.   All right.  VG-017, you have told us the names of three of the

19     workers from the Varda factory.  Did you know any of these men

20     personally?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   How was it that you knew them?

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2699

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

 3             MR. COLE:

 4        Q.   How many workers were brought out from the factory on that

 5     occasion?

 6        A.   Six to seven.

 7        Q.   And where were they gathered together or kept after they were

 8     brought out of the factory?

 9        A.   All were kept outside the guardhouse.

10        Q.   Who was looking after them or guarding them?

11        A.   There was that guard and another two armed men, and the guard was

12     armed, too.

13        Q.   Now, the total of men that were brought out, you've given us the

14     name of three of them.  Do you know the names of the other persons or

15     were you given the names of the others persons who were brought out from

16     the factory?

17        A.   I knew them because they were workers, but I've forgotten since.

18        Q.   How many times did Milan Lukic go into the factory and come back

19     with workers?

20        A.   Twice.

21        Q.   What happened after the -- the group of workers were gathered at

22     the guardhouse?  What did Milan Lukic do?

23        A.   They took them -- he took them down to the Drina River and killed

24     them.

25        Q.   Did Milan Lukic go in front of these -- these workers or was he

Page 2700

 1     behind them or where was he on the trip to the driver?

 2        A.   The workers were walking in front of him.

 3        Q.   How many workers did he take to the river on this first occasion?

 4        A.   As far as I could see, there were three of them.

 5        Q.   Was Milan Lukic carrying anything or have anything in his hands

 6     at the time?

 7        A.   He had an automatic rifle.

 8        Q.   Were the other workers whiting at the guardhouse waiting there

 9     voluntarily or were they being forced to wait there?  Do you know?

10        A.   What are you talking about voluntarily.  Of course, not.

11        Q.   Can you remember which persons -- which workers were taken in

12     that first group to the river?

13        A.   I remember only about one of them, because I couldn't see the

14     others.

15        Q.   Can you remember the name of that person?

16        A.   His name was Nedzad.

17        Q.   And his last name?

18        A.   Bektas.

19        Q.   Did you recall anything that Milan Lukic was saying to the men as

20     he took them to the river?

21        A.   I didn't hear that, but as they started walking to the river,

22     Milan Lukic put his arm around Bektas.

23        Q.   As they were going towards the river, did you lose sight of Milan

24     Lukic and these three men?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2701

 1        Q.   What was your vision obscured by at that point?

 2        A.   Well, there was an outhouse between me and the Drina River, near

 3     the road.

 4        Q.   After you lost sight of Milan Lukic and the workers, what did you

 5     hear, if anything?

 6        A.   I heard shooting.

 7        Q.   What sort of shooting?

 8        A.   Automatic fire.

 9        Q.   Can you please have a look at the photograph before you again.

10     I'm going to ask you to mark something on the photograph.

11             MR. COLE:  It's ERN 05 --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             MR. COLE:  ERN 0544-9983, and I've forgotten the exhibit number.

14     Oh, it's there.  Okay.

15        Q.   Now, VG-017, can you see that -- the photograph once again on the

16     screen before you?

17        A.   [No verbal response]

18        Q.   Firstly, can you put a cross on the outhouse you described before

19     that was obscuring your vision.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   And above that put the English letter O for "outhouse."

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Could you now put a cross at the position where you believe Milan

24     Lukic and the workers were at the time you heard the shooting.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 2702

 1        Q.   And could you put the English letter S alongside that.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   And, finally, could you just draw a straight line from the

 4     position where the men were at the guardhouse to the position where you

 5     say Milan Lukic and the workers were when you heard the shots.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

 7             MR. CEPIC:  If I may assist, just technical issue.  Could we use

 8     different colour?  It would be easier later on to distinguish some

 9     things.

10             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Just hold it for a moment.  I'm not aware of the

11     technicalities of different coloured --

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well --

13             MR. COLE:  Could we have another colour, please.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, if that is possible, then let it be done,

15     but I don't consider it a crucial issue.

16             MR. COLE:

17        Q.   All right.  You have a different coloured pen now, VG-017.  I'm

18     going to ask you to draw a line from where Milan Lukic left with the

19     workers from the guardhouse and the route he took to the place where you

20     heard the shots.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  That's recorded in a black pen on the exhibit.

23     The other markings were in blue.

24             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Could we now please go into private session,

25     Your Honour.

Page 2703

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2704

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 4             MR. COLE:

 5        Q.   VG-017, why did you change your viewing location?

 6        A.   I moved in order to get a better view, firstly, and, secondly, to

 7     hide better.

 8             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Could I tender the exhibit into evidence,

 9     please, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We admit it.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P155, Your Honours.

12        Q.   How long did it take to get from the barrels to the henhouse?

13        A.   A second perhaps.

14        Q.   Did you continue to observe what was happening at the Varda

15     factory from your new location?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   After you heard the shots by the Drina River, how many persons

18     did you see reappear from that location?

19        A.   I'm not sure I understand.

20        Q.   You heard the shots by the Drina River, you've told the Court.

21     Did you see anyone coming back from the area where you heard the shots?

22        A.   No, but Lukic walked back half the way.

23        Q.   What did he do then?

24        A.   He was standing midway down the road, and he called to the other

25     three or four -- I don't remember exactly, but that there were three or

Page 2705

 1     four other men there.  He called them from the midway down the road, then

 2     they walked over to him, and they all went down as far as down as the

 3     Drina riverbank?

 4        Q.   At this stage, was Milan Lukic holding or carrying anything?

 5        A.   Yes, an automatic rifle.

 6        Q.   Where did he go with the second group of workers that he beckoned

 7     to him?

 8        A.   They went down to the river.  He was standing outside, but he

 9     forced them to go into the river, and then he shot them from the back.

10        Q.   Did you see all that happen that you've just described to us?

11        A.   No.  I just heard the shots.

12        Q.   Was your vision on this occasion obscured by the same outhouse

13     that you described before?

14        A.   That's right.

15        Q.   What sort of shooting did you hear on this occasion, the second

16     occasion?

17        A.   The same as before.

18        Q.   And what did you see after the shooting?

19        A.   Lukic walking back to the car and driving off towards the centre

20     of town.

21        Q.   Which car did he drive off in?

22        A.   The same that he had arrived in.

23        Q.   Do you know if anyone left with him in the car?

24        A.   The same people who had come there with him.

25        Q.   What did you do then?

Page 2706

 1        A.   I retraced my steps, and, later on, I walked back into town, and

 2     then back the way I had come that same night before I eventually fled

 3     Visegrad.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You told us earlier, Witness, that he shot them

 5     in the back in the river, but you didn't actually see.  Did you ever see

 6     the men who were shot after they had been shot?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I saw one of them.  I buried

 8     his body.  His mother found him near the Drina River, and then the ladies

 9     from my house took the body back up.  We gave the body a burial.  As we

10     were digging a grave, someone started firing at us from the other

11     riverbank.  We had to wait and we couldn't finish burying the body, but

12     the body had been -- the back of the body had been riddled by bullets.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What I meant was:  Did you see any of them in

14     the river after they had been shot?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole.

17             MR. COLE:

18        Q.   Yes.  VG-017, you've told us about the men being shot.  Did you

19     learn about the circumstances there of their shooting from other persons

20     subsequently?

21        A.   People were saying things, but I wasn't really listening

22     carefully.  All I was thinking about at the time was how to escape

23     myself.

24        Q.   In relation to this second group of workers that you saw Milan

25     Lukic taking towards the river, what was the last thing you saw before

Page 2707

 1     the -- the shots that you heard?  What was the last thing you saw Milan

 2     Lukic and the men doing?

 3        A.   Well, once those people had been killed, this group got into the

 4     car and they drove off.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole, how much longer will you be in your

 6     examination?  We have -- we are about five minutes from the break.

 7             MR. COLE:  I think maybe, maybe ten minutes, a quarter of an

 8     hour, Your Honour.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, very well.  Proceed.

11             MR. COLE:

12        Q.   I just want to make it clear, VG-017, with the second group of

13     workers going towards the river with Milan Lukic, you lost sight of them

14     on the way down towards the river, and you heard some shots shortly

15     thereafter.  Does that summarise it?

16        A.   Yes, I heard shots.

17             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, if we could go briefly into private

18     session.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, private session.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2708

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 9             MR. COLE:

10        Q.   Now, while you were hiding, after you had witnessed what you had

11     at the Varda factory, did a woman pass by your address crying or weeping?

12        A.   Yes.  That was Ibrisim's mother.

13        Q.   And did she speak to you about finding the body of her son?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Did you speak with her on this occasion?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Now, did you help bury the body of one of the victims from the

18     Varda factory?

19             MR. ALARID:  And he is -- these are leading questions, Your

20     Honour.

21             MR. COLE:  In fact, Your Honour, the witness, in response to Your

22     Honour's questions a short time ago, was telling us about the very

23     matters I'm now asking him, so I think we have it on record.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, yes, that is so, but I'd wanted to ask why

25     it was necessary, Mr. Cole, to be in private session for the name of the

Page 2709

 1     victim who is deceased and who is mentioned in the indictment.

 2             MR. COLE:  Sir, are we in private session now?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You want to give the answer in private session?

 5             MR. COLE:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session then.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2710

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 4             MR. COLE:

 5        Q.   Now, VG-017, you told the Court a short time ago that you helped

 6     to bury the body of one of the victims from the Varda factory.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And this man, the man whose body you helped to bury, was Ibrisim

 9     Memisevic?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And shortly after the men were killed, it was the mother of this

12     man who passed by your address?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did you help bury this man in the Dusce area?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And at whose request did you bury his body there?

17        A.   They were watching all of this from further up, and then his

18     mother walked down crying.  She went down as far as the Drina River bank

19     and found her son's body, the body of Ibrisim.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll have to take the break now, Mr. Cole.

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 10.43 a.m.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole, to conclude.

24             MR. COLE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   VG-017, you told the Court earlier that when you located or when

Page 2711

 1     you saw Ibrisim Memisevic's body, it was riddled with bullets.  Do you

 2     recall that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you recall how many bullet holes or bullet wounds you saw?

 5        A.   I can't remember exactly, but there were more than ten.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  When was that, Mr. Cole?

 7             MR. COLE:  That was --

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  When did he see the body in relation to the

 9     event?

10             MR. COLE:  Yes.

11        Q.   VG-017, when was it and how was it that you were able to see the

12     body of Ibrisim?

13        A.   When we buried body.

14        Q.   Where was the body when you first saw it before you took it to

15     bury the body?

16        A.   His mother brought his body from the riverbank and from his home

17     on a cart to this location of his grave.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  When was that burial?  Was that the same day as

19     the shooting or a day after, or just when was it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next day.

21             MR. COLE:

22        Q.   And did anyone assist you with the burial?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   Who was that?

25        A.   I was there; and Ismaela Jeta [phoen]; her son, Mustafa

Page 2712

 1     Memisevic.

 2        Q.   And you said earlier that while you were conducting the burial,

 3     there was some shooting at you.  Do you know who it was that was shooting

 4     at you?

 5        A.   Well, we knew who.  The Chetniks, all of them.

 6        Q.   Now, I'm going to ask that the -- that you be shown another

 7     photograph, ERN 0545-0161.

 8             MR. COLE:  This is a still from P54 as the previous exhibit was.

 9        Q.   I ask that that be shown to you now.  Right.

10             Can you see the photograph in front of you, VG-017?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Can you see the guardhouse that you have earlier described?

13        A.   Yes.  This is the small guardhouse, but the photo was taken from

14     a different angle.

15        Q.   Yes.  Using the pen, can you -- and with the assistance of the

16     court usher, could you please write the English letter G on the

17     guardhouse on that photo.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Now, can you please, with an X, mark the location that you were

20     hiding behind the barrels, when you viewed the scene at Varda that day.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   And can you put the English letter B above that cross.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Can you now put a cross where you viewed the scene from the

25     henhouse that day.

Page 2713

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   And above that cross, could you put a double H, double English

 3     letters H for "henhouse."

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

 6             MR. COLE:  Your Honours, I would now ask that that exhibit be

 7     tendered into evidence.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  The Exhibit will become P156, Your Honours.

10             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you.  I have a last topic to ask the

11     witness about, Your Honours.

12        Q.   VG-50 -- VG-017, I asked you earlier and you gave some testimony

13     about the car that Milan Lukic was driving; and on that occasion, you

14     said that the owner of the car was a lady by the name of Zukic.  Do you

15     recall that?

16        A.   Yes, Behka Zukic.

17        Q.   What occupation or business did she have at the time in 1992?

18        A.   She owned a store.

19        Q.   Are you aware now that she was killed in 1992?

20        A.   Yes.  She was the first victim to be killed in Visegrad when the

21     war broke out.

22        Q.   Whereabouts was it that she was killed?

23        A.   In her own home.

24        Q.   Where did she live?  Where was her home?

25        A.   In Dusce.

Page 2714

 1        Q.   Do you know what happened to her husband and son?

 2        A.   Yes.  They were killed as well some days before, her husband and

 3     her son.

 4        Q.   Did you yourself see the body of Behija Zukic?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Were you summons to go to her address that day?

 7             MR. ALARID:  Objection, leading.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  In the circumstances, I'll allow it.

10             MR. COLE:

11        Q.   What happened when you arrived at her address that day?

12        A.   I was near the house and there was a phone that I was using at

13     the time.  I got a call saying that an ambulance would be on its way to

14     take her to hospital.

15        Q.   So what did you do?

16        A.   I was on my way past some other houses.  I took a different path,

17     it was a village path, and then eventually I reached her house.

18        Q.   Can you describe the condition of her body when you saw it?

19        A.   An ambulance arrived, a doctor and a driver.  They pulled up

20     outside the house.

21        Q.   And did you assist with removing her body to the ambulance?

22        A.   Yes.  We took the stairs up to the first floor, and when we

23     reached the hallway on the first floor, this lady was lying in the

24     following position:  Half her body was in one of the rooms, and half her

25     body was out in the hall, face down.

Page 2715

 1        Q.   Did you notice any particular wound?

 2        A.   Yes.  When we placed her body on a blanket, we turned her over so

 3     she was now face up.  She had a braid that was as thick as a hand.  The

 4     braid had fallen across her face.  We placed her dead body on this

 5     blanket, but the brain came out of the skull.  I picked up her brain, but

 6     the doctor swore at me and ordered me to leave it where it was, so the

 7     brain remained on the floor just lying there.

 8        Q.   Whereabouts was the wound --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Cole, please.

10             MR. COLE:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Whereabouts was the wound on her head?

12        A.   She was shot from the back in the neck, the back of her head, and

13     her whole head was blown to pieces.

14        Q.   Do you know what month in 1992 that was?

15        A.   I don't know, but it was early on in 1992 [as interpreted].  She

16     was the first victim to be killed in Visegrad.

17        Q.   Now, just finally in relation to the --

18             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, a note for the transcript.  Mr. Ivetic

19     heard "1991" as opposed to "1992," if we could check on the tape.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can you let us know what was said, interpreter?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter believes that he heard "1992,"

22     but, of course, the tape can be checked.

23             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Why don't you clarify it with the

24     witness?

25             MR. COLE:  Yes.  I'll ask the question again.

Page 2716

 1        Q.   VG-017, I'm going to ask the question again.

 2             Can you tell us, are you able to assist us with which month it

 3     was in 1992 that you saw the body of Mrs. Zukic?

 4        A.   At the very beginning.  I can't remember the --

 5             MR. ALARID:  [Previous translation continues] ... objection.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm sorry, Mr. Alarid, I didn't hear your

 7     objection.

 8             MR. ALARID:  The restatement of the question was leading.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, that was the question that he had put.

10             MR. ALARID:  No.  Specifically, he says "assist us with which

11     month it was in 1992 that you saw Ms. Zukic."

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But he earlier had asked:  "Do you know what

13     month in 1992 that was."

14             MR. ALARID:  That's still leading, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, there was no objection at that time.  That

16     was the question which he had put.

17             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  Isn't the point moot, because the

18     interpreter has clarified that it was 1992, so I don't think we need to

19     waste more time on this.  Thank you.

20             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Final subject, VG-017, about the car owned by Mrs. Zukic that

22     you've told us about here in court earlier, and you did say that you

23     didn't know what type of car it was that you saw on that occasion at the

24     Varda factory.  Were you, however, told by other persons the type of car

25     that Mrs. Zukic owned?

Page 2717

 1        A.   Yes.  I heard at a later stage that this was a new Passat.

 2        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

 3             MR. COLE:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Cole.

 5             Mr. Alarid.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

 7        Q.   Sir, my name is Jason Alarid and I represent Milan Lukic.  I'd

 8     like to ask you a few questions.  I'd also like to remind you that you're

 9     under oath.

10             Now, sir, I'd like to go with the last statement you made.  You

11     indicated that you heard that it was a new Passat; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Who did you hear this from?

14        A.   The neighbours were talking about it, mostly women.  Who else?

15     Because men did not dare go out much.  As soon as they got out of the

16     house, they would be killed.

17        Q.   You said you saw this car on several occasions.  What colour was

18     it?

19        A.   I don't know the colour.  I don't remember.

20        Q.   This is a brand new Passat in Visegrad.  Would it be fair to say

21     that there weren't many Passats in Visegrad?

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2718

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 8             MR. COLE:  Thank you, sir.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Please proceed --

10             Mr. Cepic.

11             MR. CEPIC:  I'm sorry for interrupting.  We have in the

12     transcript, but we didn't have translation in B/C/S, who Mr. Alarid

13     represents, which client he represents.  Thank you very much.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Where is that?

15             MR. CEPIC:  This is on -- I'm sorry.  We didn't have translation

16     in B/C/S.  This is on page 39, line 17, just the name of client.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You wish Mr. Alarid to state the client that he

18     represents.

19             MR. CEPIC:  Yeah.  Thank you very much.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, with that very profound point, Mr. Alarid,

21     please state the client that you represent.

22             MR. ALARID:

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you hear me earlier that I indicated that I

24     represent Milan Lukic?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2719

 1        Q.   Now, isn't it true that you didn't mention anything about Behija

 2     Zukic or the Passat before your proofing note session of October 8,

 3     2007 -- I mean, excuse me, 2008?

 4        A.   Right.  I didn't talk about that.

 5        Q.   Isn't it true that someone's memory usually gets worse over time

 6     as opposed to better over time?

 7        A.   Right.

 8        Q.   And it's an important fact, about the car that the person drove

 9     to a murder, isn't it?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And isn't it true, in the 1998 statement, you gave no description

12     of the vehicle, make, model or colour?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Now, you first met with the Office of the Prosecutor on the

15     7th of October.  Isn't that true?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And you met with the -- Mr. Cole, who is in the courtroom now;

18     and a translator; and also an intern; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   How long did this meeting on October 7th, the first meeting, how

21     long did it take?

22        A.   About an hour.

23        Q.   Were you given your statements of 1998 and 2008 to review in

24     anticipation of your testimony at that first meeting?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2720

 1        Q.   And during that first meeting, isn't it true that you were shown

 2     several photographs, including the ones you looked at in court today?

 3     Correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And in that statement, you also -- in that proofing session, you

 6     also reiterated that you lost your mother and two sons as well as your

 7     son-in-law in the conflict of 1992; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 9        Q.   And in that October 7th meeting, you also clarified that

10     Mr. Lukic, or the person you identified as Mr. Lukic, hugged one of the

11     men, Nedzad Bektas; correct?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   And then you went to your hotel room, I take it; correct?

14        A.   I don't understand.

15        Q.   Well, after your proofing session on October 7th, what did you

16     do?

17        A.   Went home.

18        Q.   Did you have an appointment to meet with the Prosecutor the next

19     day on the 8th?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you -- can you tell the Court what happened during that -- or

22     who told you about the red Passat, who reminded you?

23        A.   I didn't say it was a red Passat.  Who said that?

24        Q.   Who reminded you that it was a Passat?

25        A.   It was a Passat.  I heard it later from the womenfolk.  No men

Page 2721

 1     dared leave their homes, but all the women were talking about it.

 2        Q.   Who brought up Behka Zukic?

 3        A.   I brought her up.

 4        Q.   So what, during the night between October 7th and October 8th,

 5     was the epiphany of which you would now bring up the Zukic situation in

 6     relation to the Varda?

 7        A.   Because it was her car.

 8        Q.   What, during the night, was the epiphany in which you recalled

 9     all of this association with Behka Zukic?

10        A.   Because I heard it from the women.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, Mr. Alarid.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, I don't like interrupting your

14     cross-examination, I see you're building up to something, but you had

15     earlier asked the witness whether it wasn't true that, in his 1998

16     statement, he made no mention of the vehicle, make, model or colour; and

17     the witness said no, meaning that he didn't accept your proposition.

18     That's what I understood.

19             So I would have expected that you would then have put the

20     statement to the witness to show that the statement, indeed, contained no

21     mention of the car, the make, model or colour.

22             MR. ALARID:  In a weird way, Your Honour, I actually understood

23     that he was agreeing with me that he didn't mention it, but I can see how

24     the confusion happened, and I was going to go through his statement.  So

25     we'll get there either way.  But in the way I absorbed it, I absorbed it

Page 2722

 1     that he was agreeing that he didn't mention it.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see.  You interpret it as agreeing with you.

 3     I guess that's possible.

 4             MR. ALARID:  Let me just ask the witness again.

 5        Q.   Sir, Mr. VG-017, isn't it true that in your 1998 statement, nor

 6     in your 2008 clarification of that statement, did you mention anywhere

 7     the make, model, or colour of the car that was at the Varda factory the

 8     day you say Milan Lukic was there?

 9        A.   Yes.  I did not mention it anywhere.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Then that clarifies that.

11             Yes, Mr. Cole.

12             MR. COLE:  Well, if I could just point out, sir, Your Honour,

13     there is a limited description of the car; and I think, in all fairness,

14     if this type of question is going to be put, he should be referred to his

15     statement at this stage.  It does give us some description of a car here,

16     although limited, Your Honour.

17             MR. ALARID:  I was going to get to that, Your Honour.  I was

18     going to put the statement to the witness to get exactly the limited

19     nature of IDing that a car was there.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Well, it's important to have everything in

21     its entire context, Mr. Alarid.

22             MR. ALARID:  Yes, absolutely, sir.  Absolutely.

23        Q.   Now, in your proofing statement of October 8, 2008, it's also the

24     first time that you mention that:  "The witness saw Milan Lukic driving

25     on the road past his house in," your village, "on a number of occasions

Page 2723

 1     prior to the witness leaving Visegrad on the 8th of June, 1992.  "Isn't

 2     that true?

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Mr. Cole is on his feet.

 4             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, we're going to have to have a redaction

 5     again because we're mentioning his house again.  I wonder if that passage

 6     could be noted for redaction.

 7             MR. ALARID:  I did not mention the name of the village to not

 8     have that objection.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  I think it's sufficiently general not to

10     be indicative of anything.

11             MR. ALARID:

12        Q.   Isn't that true, sir?

13        A.   Again, I don't understand what you're talking about.

14        Q.   Isn't it true that October 8th, 2008, in the proofing session

15     with the Prosecutor, is the first time you mentioned that Milan Lukic

16     drove on the road past your house "on a number of occasions prior to the

17     witness leaving Visegrad"?  The witness is you, sir.

18        A.   That's true.

19        Q.   And isn't it true that in your 2008 October 8th proofing session

20     is the first time that you claim Milan Lukic was in the same car each

21     time, and that it was a new car?  Correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   But you can't tell us the colour, but you can tell us it was new?

24        A.   I don't know the colour, but I know it was new because my

25     neighbour used to drive it.

Page 2724

 1        Q.   But isn't it true, in your 1998 statement, you indicated that you

 2     did not know Milan Lukic before the Varda incident and, in fact, learned

 3     his identity only by hearsay of other people?

 4        A.   It's true.

 5        Q.   And the first time that you were able to supposedly identify

 6     Mr. Lukic, you were at a considerable distance from the Varda factory,

 7     isn't that true, a hundred and fifty metres or more?

 8        A.   It's true that he passed by my house all the time.  There was no

 9     other way for him to go.

10        Q.   But if you couldn't recognise the driver of the car passing by

11     your house, how could you associate it with the person in the Varda

12     factory?

13        A.   How wouldn't I?  I know him.  I know the man.

14        Q.   Well, let's talk about how you know him.  You know he's from

15     Rujiste; right?

16        A.   I know the family well, but I don't know him because he was in

17     Serbia.

18        Q.   Isn't it true that you said, in your first statement, that the

19     Milan Lukic you knew of was from Rujiste?  Correct?

20        A.   Yes, right.  He is from Rujiste.

21        Q.   You heard this from the women as well, or did you know this on

22     your own?

23        A.   I knew that from the time I worked as a driver in the forestry

24     department.

25        Q.   When was that?  You retired in 1983.

Page 2725

 1        A.   Yes.  I knew him by his family members who were employed with me

 2     in the forestry department, and his name was mentioned.

 3        Q.   Please give the full names of all the family members that you

 4     know.

 5        A.   What are you talking about?  I can barely remember my own name

 6     let alone the names of people from 17 years ago.

 7        Q.   Well, you were in -- you were in Visegrad area for how long?

 8        A.   Around 40 years.  I arrived in 1963.

 9        Q.   Well, you say that you worked with members of the Lukic family in

10     the forestry department.  What are their names?

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, he has already answered that, you know.

12     He said he can barely remember his own name let alone the names of people

13     from 17 years ago.

14             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, with all due respect, he mentioned

15     Behka Zukic after 18 years of not mentioning her.  I'm questioning the

16     limit of this witness's memory, and I think that's appropriate to

17     establish credibility, bias, and ability to remember.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, Witness, are you able to help us with the

19     names of the members of the Lukic family with whom you worked in the

20     forestry department?  Yes or no?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I know is one person, Djordje

22     Lukic.  He worked in the warehouse.

23             MR. ALARID:

24        Q.   And what relation was Djordje Lukic to Milan Lukic?

25        A.   That I don't know.

Page 2726

 1        Q.   How old was Djordje Lukic?

 2        A.   He was not a young man, but I don't know how old he was.  How

 3     would I know?

 4        Q.   Well, in your statement of 1998, you indicated that Mr. Lukic,

 5     Mr. Milan Lukic, was short, on the chubby side; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  Right.

 7        Q.   With black hair with oil in it, greased back?

 8        A.   Maybe.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole.

10             MR. COLE:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm looking at the statement.  The

11     description of Mr. Lukic, it doesn't say "short" as I read it, so I

12     wonder --

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, why don't you put the statement?

14             MR. ALARID:  Certainly.  I think we're there.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The witness should have the statement in front

16     of him.

17             MR. ALARID:  Absolutely, Your Honour.

18             Could the court assistant bring up 1D10-2765; B/C/S version is

19     1D10-2770.

20        Q.   Sir, do you recognise these first pages as the statement you gave

21     in 1998, 14th of February?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And I note a signature at the bottom of the page.

24             MR. ALARID:  Can the court assistant go down to that and verify

25     signatures.

Page 2727

 1        Q.   Is that your signature, sir?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. ALARID:  And can the court assistant go to page 1 of the text

 4     of the statement, which is page 2 on the English version, and I believe

 5     page 2 on the B/C/S version.  Can we go to the bottom paragraph, please.

 6        Q.   Now, do you see that there you're indicating that the person you

 7     believe to be Milan Lukic came to the Varda factory around 11.30 in the

 8     morning?  Correct?

 9        A.   I think it was from 9.30 to 11.30.  I was there around 9.00.

10        Q.   And in that paragraph.  You indicate that Lukic is from the

11     village of Rujiste, "and I knew the Lukics well because they worked in

12     the forestry department..."  Correct?

13        A.   [No interpretation]

14        Q.   Now, you indicate --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter could not hear the witness.

16     He's speaking past the microphone.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, could you give that answer again?  The

18     interpreter did not hear.

19             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

20             MR. ALARID:

21        Q.   And could the witness repeat himself, please?

22        A.   I didn't hear well what you meant.

23        Q.   In your statement of 1998, you indicate:  "I knew the Lukics well

24     because they worked in the forestry department ..."

25             Is that true?

Page 2728

 1        A.   Yes.  It's the older members of his family who worked there.

 2        Q.   Well, when you say "they," how many members of his family worked

 3     there, even if you cannot remember their names?

 4        A.   I know about one of them who worked in the warehouse, the stock

 5     manager, Djordje Lukic.

 6        Q.   How many other members of his family worked there?

 7        A.   I don't know exactly.  I didn't keep records.  How would I know?

 8     I was a driver.

 9        Q.   Well, the reason I'm asking you, sir, is you used the word

10     "they," meaning plural, more than one.  So other than Djordje, how many

11     people of the Lukic family worked at the forestry department of your

12     company?

13        A.   I don't know.

14        Q.   Now, still, on the -- on the first page of your statement, you

15     indicate that:  "During the Uzice Corps' time in Visegrad, there were

16     still murders and burnings."  Correct -- or excuse me, "murders"?

17        A.   Yes, in all of the suburbs of Visegrad.

18        Q.   And isn't it true that once the Uzice Corps left, only the

19     reserve troops withdrew, but the rest of the army stayed?  Correct?

20        A.   The Uzice Corps, when they arrived in Visegrad, numbered around

21     3.000 soldiers.

22        Q.   And when they left, how many stayed?

23        A.   Well, that I don't know.

24        Q.   Just from you being a 40-year resident, did you recognise many

25     faces that you'd never seen before that were Serb soldiers?

Page 2729

 1        A.   How would I be able to see them at all when I was living in a

 2     mouse hole?

 3        Q.   So when did you actually go into hiding and not come far away

 4     from your home?

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7        Q.   And can you recall when that was in at least the month and year?

 8        A.   It was in 1992, but I can't tell you the month because we were

 9     seized by great fear.

10        Q.   And at what point in time did you unfortunately lose track of

11     your sons?  Was that before or after you went in riding?

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole.

13             MR. COLE:  Yes.  I wonder if we could have a redaction, Your

14     Honour, page 51, line 9.

15             MR. ALARID:  I believe the witness mentioned his own village.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, that should be redacted.

17             Mr. Alarid, there are two matters I am waiting for you to mention

18     in relation to the statement:  One, that it has no mention of the car;

19     and the second point --

20             MR. ALARID:  I believe it's the description of the witness, Your

21     Honour, and that's on the next page.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You're coming to that.

23             MR. ALARID:  Yes, it's the next page.  I just didn't want to go

24     off the page and have to come back.

25        Q.   The question I asked you, sir, before we turn the page is at what

Page 2730

 1     time did you lose track of your sons?  Was it before or after you went

 2     into hiding?

 3        A.   That was after I went into hiding.

 4        Q.   And did you ever receive any justice for their disappearance?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Did you ever receive any justice for the disappearance of your

 7     mother or son-in-law?

 8        A.   No.  My son-in-law was found in Zepa.  The river carried him to

 9     Zepa.  He was found there, and so there was an autopsy and he was --

10     sorry.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Identification was

12     performed.

13        A.   And he was buried in Visegrad.

14        Q.   At this time, there were many disappearances of Muslims; correct?

15        A.   Not many of us, around 2.500.

16        Q.   Who's the chief of police at this time in Visegrad?

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   Do you recognise the name of Risto Perisic?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   How about Dragan Tomic?

21        A.   The name rings a bell.

22        Q.   Isn't it true that the police were undertaking the arrest and

23     detention of persons of Muslim ethnicity at that time in Visegrad?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Isn't it true that Muslims were beaten at the police station in

Page 2731

 1     Visegrad?

 2        A.   Yes, it's true.

 3        Q.   Isn't it true that the police confiscated many vehicles and

 4     trucks from Muslim persons?

 5        A.   Well, what they took from me alone was two cars and a motorbike.

 6        Q.   And many other Muslims were looted as well, sir.  Isn't that

 7     true?

 8        A.   All of them.

 9             MR. ALARID:  Now we're going to switch to the next page, please.

10        Q.   And isn't it true that the first time you saw the person you

11     believed to be Milan Lukic was on the day of the Varda incident?

12     Correct?

13        A.   That day that I mentioned in 1992; so, yes, that's correct.

14        Q.   And at the time you first saw this person, you did not know his

15     name, you did not know that he was going to be identified as Milan Lukic.

16     Isn't that true?

17        A.   True.

18        Q.   And even on the day that you say he had come by your home, you

19     didn't see that person, did you, nor did you see the vehicle that this

20     person came in; correct?

21        A.   I saw everything.

22        Q.   From where you were hiding in your home?

23        A.   I was on the first floor.

24        Q.   And where would you be able to see, especially since you do not

25     describe it in your statement of 1998?

Page 2732

 1        A.   How on earth could I have not seen it?  I was sitting on a chair

 2     in the room on the first floor, and the window was wide open.  You need

 3     to climb about five or six stairs to reach my house in the first place,

 4     but I noticed the car down there and saw Milan Lukic walk up the steps.

 5             I --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the last

 7     part of the witness's answer.

 8             MR. ALARID:

 9        Q.   Could you please repeat the last part of your answer, sir.  The

10     interpreter did not hear it.

11        A.   When I heard the car pull up outside the house, I saw Milan Lukic

12     get out of the car.  I was sitting on a chair, and the window was open.

13     I went out the window since the window was open, and the window was on

14     the side of the house, and then I hid.

15        Q.   Well, the reason I -- I believe that you did not see it is

16     because if you read the paragraph describing this incident, you state,

17     "Apparently, he was asking for me by name."  And "apparently" indicates

18     that you didn't hear it, but you were told that by someone else.

19        A.   Who else could have said that?  He was the only person in the

20     house.  Everyone else had fled.  I was hiding by night-time.

21        Q.   Well, then, if no one's there, how is he going to ask for you by

22     name?  There's no one to talk to.

23        A.   I don't know.

24        Q.   Now, in your statement, you indicate that this Lukic is about 30

25     to 35 years old.  Isn't that true?

Page 2733

 1        A.   I did say that, but I didn't know for sure.

 2        Q.   And then you go on to say:  "He is of medium height and on the

 3     chubby side."  Isn't that true?

 4        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 5        Q.   And you go on to say that he had darkish hair with oil on his

 6     hair.  Isn't that true?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And you go on down to say that:  "I saw that Lukic was wearing

 9     civilian clothes when he came on that day."  Are you indicating the day

10     at the Varda factory or the day at your home?

11        A.   At my home.

12        Q.   So, on the day of the Varda factory incident, what were the

13     people wearing that came to the Varda factory?

14        A.   Some JNA uniforms, olive drab, and some -- the other kind of

15     uniform.

16        Q.   The reason I'm confused, sir, is if you go down to the second

17     paragraph, it indicates that basically one person and three other men

18     call, and then you said that, "I don't know the three soldiers that he

19     was with.  These three wore the camouflage uniform and some had the SMB

20     uniform."  "Some" indicates more than one person to me, so it appears

21     that there were more than four by that paragraph.

22        A.   I only saw three.

23        Q.   And the person that you believe to be Milan Lukic at the time,

24     what was he wearing?

25        A.   Civilian uniform, as far as I remember.

Page 2734

 1        Q.   Please describe the civilian uniform.

 2        A.   I can't remember.

 3        Q.   Can you remember colour of pants or colour of shirt?

 4        A.   No.  How on earth could I possibly remember that sort of thing?

 5     I was doing my best to get out of the way.

 6        Q.   Was he wearing a jacket or a hat?

 7        A.   Perhaps.  Perhaps he was wearing a jacket, but I think his head

 8     was bare.

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let us hear Mr. Cole.

18             MR. COLE:  Yes, Your Honour.  We're getting details now that

19     shouldn't be part of a public session.  If could I ask, on this page,

20     there be some redactions, I think from the question on page 56, line 12.

21     We start talking about working and socialising at that point, and if

22     counsel could be careful, please.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.  You do have to be more

24     careful.  So we have to redact those sections.  The court deputy will

25     note that.

Page 2735

 1             MR. ALARID:  Can I proceed, Your Honour?

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 3             MR. ALARID:

 4        Q.   Do we have to go into private session to mention any of the

 5     deceased or persons that this witness believes were taken out, because we

 6     are in open session?

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole, I'll be advised by you.

 8             MR. COLE:  Yes.  You Honour, the names of the victims, I don't

 9     believe there's any need for those to be in private session, if that's

10     what counsel's asking.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you very much.

12             MR. ALARID:

13        Q.   And what about Cancar Musan?

14        A.   I knew him by sight, he was or familiar face, but not his name.

15        Q.   Could you, from your vantage point at that house or the henhouse,

16     could you tell Cancar?  Could you identify him?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   But you're positive that you saw Nedzad Bektas; correct?

19        A.   Of course.  He was the first to be taken there.

20        Q.   And you also mentioned Ibrisim.  Could you tell him from a

21     distance, or did you learn that later from his mother?

22        A.   I'm not sure I understand.

23        Q.   Well, you indicated that you helped bury Ibrisim; correct?

24        A.   Right.  The moment they brought him there.

25        Q.   The moment the women brought him to the burial sight, is what

Page 2736

 1     you're saying?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   So you couldn't tell Ibrisim at a distance from where you were in

 4     the henhouse or your house; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. COLE:  Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole.

 8             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, the question and the answer are a little

 9     ambiguous, in my submission, similar to a question and answer before.  I

10     wonder if any event if the counsel could be a little bit clearer in his

11     question as to the occasion to which he refers.

12             MR. ALARID:

13        Q.   Well, how about, could you read the last paragraph of page 3 of

14     the B/C/S statement, please -- or actually second to the last, sir, which

15     begins with "Lukic."  In middle of the paragraph, it appears to me that

16     you only learned of the identity of Ibrisim later from his mother, not

17     that you identified him directly at a distance.

18        A.   I see you're asking me about plenty of detail here.  When they

19     took him as far as the guardhouse, he knelt down, and his family over

20     there, the wife and the children, were across the fence.  He was looking

21     at his children, and they called him and then he walked over.

22        Q.   Isn't this true that this is the first time you mentioned that

23     about Ibrisim in any statements, including in the proofing sessions, and

24     earlier in testimony today?

25        A.   No.  But you're making me say it, aren't you?

Page 2737

 1        Q.   No, sir.  I don't believe I'm putting those words in your mouth.

 2     You just indicated that that's what you believe.

 3             Isn't it true that you did not witness the incident at the Varda

 4     factory but heard the entire thing from other people and want simply to

 5     help those people find justice?

 6        A.   I was positive, and my evidence is 100 per cent certain.

 7             MR. ALARID:  Could we please put on witness statement of 15 April

 8     2008, uploaded as 1D10-2775.

 9             But before we do that, I would like to tender the 1998 statement

10     into evidence.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's the statement you've just gone through?

12             MR. ALARID:  Yes, sir.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, then, you should put it to him that

14     nowhere in the statement is there any mention of the car.

15             MR. ALARID:  I can do that, Your Honour.

16             We'd need to back up.  Are we already on the next?

17        Q.   Well, just, sir, isn't it true that nowhere in your 1998

18     statement do you mention a make, model, or type of car, correct, the

19     statement we've just gone through, 1998?

20        A.   That's correct.

21        Q.   Now, what we're --

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, you should further question him now

23     as to how he came for the first time to mention the car.

24             MR. ALARID:  Well, I thought I'd asked him that in terms of

25     that --

Page 2738

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It follows more logically now.

 2             MR. ALARID:  I will do that, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole.

 4             MR. COLE:  Yes.  In fact, in the written statement, he does refer

 5     to some details about a car.  Now, counsel is asking him questions about

 6     the car without the witness being able to look at the detail that he has

 7     included in his statement.  Now, in fairness, and the statement is now

 8     going to be admitted, certainly the English translation gives these

 9     details:  "It was a ..." --

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Where is that?

11             MR. COLE:  It's on page 3 of the English version, sir, the second

12     paragraph.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Could that be shown -- shown for us to see?

14             MR. ALARID:  It's page 3, directly under the paragraph describing

15     Lukic as 30 to 35 and chubby side.  So we have to go back to the earlier

16     exhibit.  That would be 1D10-2765.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole, is this at paragraph 12?

18             MR. COLE:  Sir, in fact, we're talking about the earlier

19     statement.  It doesn't have paragraph numbers.

20             MR. ALARID:  I was going to go on to the 2008 -- I was going to

21     go on to the 2008 where he further clarifies.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I just want to be clear now about the 1998

23     statement.

24             MR. ALARID:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Is there anything in it about the car.

Page 2739

 1             MR. ALARID:  There is.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That was a proposition that you had put to the

 3     witness.

 4             MR. ALARID:  Yes.  Paragraph two, Your Honour, of that page 3.

 5     He came to the Varda factory with three other men.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see.

 7             MR. ALARID:

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, can you see --

 9             MR. COLE:  Just a moment.  Your Honour, as part of my objection,

10     I'd like to point out two features here, and counsel is compounding

11     matters by putting unclear or ambiguous propositions to the witness.

12             Now, in this paragraph, as we can see here, he has given a

13     limited description:  "It was a new car, the newest type of limousine."

14     Now, that's a description of a car.  That's quite something other than no

15     description of a car at all.

16             And second matter that I would like to raise an objection about

17     is counsel's proposition to the witness that he had said Milan Lukic was

18     short.

19             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I'm sorry --

20             MR. COLE:  Just a moment --

21             MR. ALARID:  I corrected myself in reading out the statement that

22     it was medium.

23             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, your microphone.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Now these are points, of course, which you

Page 2740

 1     may raise in re-examination, Mr. Cole, quite properly.  It doesn't mean

 2     that you can't raise them now.

 3             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Alarid, continuously during these sections in

 4     which you have participated, I don't know why you do so, but I would

 5     recommend you that you really faithfully cite the passages to the

 6     witnesses, because you have contributed continuously to confusion by

 7     altering the text that you are cited and, on many occasions, combining

 8     texts that are additionally confusing the situation.

 9             So I will expect you from your professional integrity, when you

10     refer to transcript put to the witness, please do carefully your work

11     before.

12             Thank you very much.

13             MR. ALARID:  Yes, sir, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, part of the reason why you get into

15     that difficulty is that when you're using previous statements, you must

16     put the statements in front of the witness.  Have the statements put in

17     front of the witness.  Judge David's points are well taken.

18             MR. ALARID:  I take the admonition.  Yes, sir.

19        Q.   Have you read the second paragraph, sir?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, you gave a description of a newer kind of limousine.  What

22     do you mean by "limousine"?

23        A.   A new car.  What else could I say?  Limousine, white, a new car.

24        Q.   Don't you think, from your vantage point of the house, it would

25     be easier to tell colour?

Page 2741

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6        Q.   Wouldn't it be true, though, if you had known this car to be

 7     Ms. Zukic's car and also seen it driven past your home on several

 8     occasions, that should have been something that was fresh in your mind in

 9     1998, as opposed to being disseminated to the Prosecution just a couple

10     days ago?

11        A.   The car drove past, and we all knew who drove it, and we all knew

12     who the car belonged to, and that's all I know.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole.

14             MR. COLE:  Yes.  I wonder if we could have the witness's age

15     redacted, page 62, line 24.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

17             MR. ALARID:

18        Q.   Sir, that wasn't the question I asked you.  What I asked you is,

19     if you had seen this car personally, also knowing it to be the car of

20     Ms. Zukic, before the incident at Varda --

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   -- if you had seen it and known it, shouldn't this have been

23     something you disseminated to the investigators in 1998 as an important

24     fact for this crime?

25        A.   Maybe I didn't mention it at the beginning, and then the next

Page 2742

 1     time I did.  I know this for sure, that this car belonged to Behka.

 2             MR. ALARID:  Could now the witness be shown 1D10-2775 -- well,

 3     actually, Your Honour, could we tender the first exhibit, the first

 4     statement 1998, into evidence at this point?

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D10-2765 will become Exhibit

 7     number D163.

 8             MR. ALARID:

 9        Q.   Now, sir, as we go to that, isn't it true that in your first

10     statement, you didn't know if this incident had happened in April or May?

11     Isn't that true?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And, in fact, in your first statement, you indicated that it was

14     at the beginning -- or excuse me, end of April, beginning of May, best of

15     your recollection?

16        A.   At the time.

17        Q.   But in your --

18             MR. ALARID:  Can we go down to the --

19             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise, just a correction.  The previous

20     Exhibit is 1D63.

21             MR. ALARID:  Okay.

22        Q.   Now, sir, do you recall giving a statement April 15th, 2008, to

23     the ICTY, as a clarification of your 1998 statement ten years earlier?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And in that -- in that meeting in April, you were asked if you

Page 2743

 1     could fix the date more accurately.  Who were you asked this by?

 2        A.   I don't remember.

 3             MR. ALARID:  Could the court assistant show the witness

 4     paragraph 9, page 2 of that statement, and they are numbered paragraphs.

 5        Q.   I ask you to read the last sentence of that, and ask you if it's

 6     correct that you do believe it was between May and the sixth month.  What

 7     does that mean?  Clarify please?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   So are you stating that it could have been any time during May or

10     any time during June?

11        A.   Well, yes, that's all I remember.

12             MR. ALARID:  Could release go to paragraph 12 on page 3.

13        Q.   And isn't it true that in that statement, you indicated that you

14     cannot recall the colour or make of the car; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   But, again, wouldn't this have been an excellent opportunity to

17     mention Ms. Zukic or that it was her car or that you had participated in

18     the burial or removal of her body?

19        A.   I participated in the removal of her body, that's true.

20        Q.   No, but, sir, what I'm asking you is, when you were in this

21     proofing -- or this statement session in April of 2008, isn't that an

22     excellent time discussing -- even if you couldn't know the make or model

23     of the car, discussing that you knew whose car it was and, in fact, had

24     seen that car on several occasions?

25        A.   Yes.  This car belongs to the lady named Zukic.  I saw it at

Page 2744

 1     least twice or three times, and Zukic's first name was Behka.

 2        Q.   Did anyone tell you that Ms. Zukic's car was important to proving

 3     this case?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Then, again, wouldn't it have been an excellent opportunity in

 6     April of 2008 to have brought up Ms. Zukic's vehicle?

 7        A.   Well, how should I know?  No one asked.  That's all I can tell

 8     you.

 9        Q.   Could you please read paragraph 13 for the Court, please.

10        A.   You want me to read it?

11        Q.   Yes, sir.  Please read it out loud.

12        A.   "I saw Milan Lukic for the first time only after the war began.

13     When he came to Varda factory and killed seven people, I didn't know his

14     identity.  I learned only later from other people that it was Milan

15     Lukic."

16        Q.   Who told you it was Milan Lukic?  Who were these other people?

17        A.   The first was Smaila, the mother of Ibrisim who was killed, but I

18     knew him myself by sight.

19        Q.   But I thought you hadn't really seen him before this moment at

20     Varda factory.

21        A.   I saw him coming into the Varda factory.

22        Q.   And that was the first time you saw this person who you described

23     in your statement as being 30 to 35, and on the chubby side, of medium

24     height; correct?

25        A.   That is true, but I knew him from seeing him before.

Page 2745

 1        Q.   When and where did you see him before?

 2        A.   I saw him when the war began, when he started going around Dusce,

 3     when the killings started.

 4        Q.   Sir, you said you know -- you knew a lot of people who worked at

 5     the Varda factory.  Did you know a Sevko Ustamujic?

 6        A.   Yes, I knew him.  He was the chief of the locksmith workshop, or

 7     the supervisor, whichever you want to call it.

 8             MR. ALARID:  Could the court assistant please put on the screen

 9     1D10-3184, and what I really want the witness to look at is the last page

10     of the B/C/S statement, which is a map written by Mr. Ustamujic.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How much longer will you be, Mr. Alarid?

12             MR. ALARID:  Other than going through Mr. Ustamujic's statement,

13     some of the names which he mentions in his name, Mr. Ustamujic is a

14     purported eyewitness to the Varda shooting.  On June 10th, 1992, he drew

15     a map, identified Mr. Nedzad as one of the victims, and Cancar.  In

16     collaboration with this witness, or at least in sync with this witness,

17     however, he identifies two other assailants perfectly and does not

18     identify Milan Lukic.

19             So going through the statement, maybe 30 minutes.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You would then be in excess of the time that I

21     had in mind.  The Prosecutor spent an hour and 35 minutes, and you would

22     have the same time as the Prosecutor.  After the break, you will then

23     have about 25 minutes.

24             Proceed.

25             MR. ALARID:

Page 2746

 1        Q.   Now, sir, this was a map that was attached to a statement by

 2     Mr. Ustamujic, and it describes several buildings of which I believe were

 3     in the picture that you started circling on.  What I would ask you is,

 4     first, to look at this map and see if it accurately reflects the area,

 5     although I note the guard shack is not written on this map.

 6        A.   I can't find my way around this map.  I can't remember any of it.

 7             MR. ALARID:  Can we bring up the photograph, please, that the

 8     witness marked up.  I believe it was P153, and I believe the marked one

 9     is P154, which might be a little bit better reference for the witness.

10        Q.   Okay.  Witness, I put to you that you have a D over the -- or

11     excuse me, a G over the guard shack, that little building out in the

12     middle of the yard; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And isn't it true that that building in the foreground closest to

15     the river, next to the left of the guard shack, is the mechanical shed?

16        A.   Yes, and the administration.

17        Q.   And that white building just to the left of that, isn't it true

18     that that's the upright saw or the JGR building, plant?

19        A.   It's the administration of the sawmill.

20        Q.   And further off to the left and off the screen is the saw hall

21     and then the main Varda factory; correct?

22        A.   Yes, but you can't see it.

23             MR. ALARID:  Could we bring the map back on the screen, please.

24     I'm again referring to 1D10-3188.

25        Q.   And, so, now that you've had an opportunity to look at the

Page 2747

 1     picture, even though this map is not to scale, is it relatively accurate

 2     as to the position of the mechanical building as well as what you call

 3     the administration building?

 4        A.   As far as I can see, that is so.  It's so, but I'm not sure.

 5        Q.   Where would you put the guard shack?

 6             MR. ALARID:  If the court assistant could assist with the pen,

 7     the witness, I'd ask him where he would place the guard shack.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the road.  That's the river.

 9     Maybe somewhere here.

10             MR. ALARID:

11        Q.   Is that the guard shack that you put in the -- in the photograph

12     that you circled, is that where the guard shack would be in relation to

13     the mechanical building and the administrative building?

14        A.   I can't see where the guardhouse is.  I'm not sure.

15        Q.   No, sir.  I'm conceding that the guard shack is not on this map

16     as you circled it on the photograph.  I'm asking you to draw the guard

17     shack where it should be in relation to the mechanical building and the

18     administrative building, as well as noting the workers' entrance and car

19     entrance which are noted on the map.

20             MR. COLE:  Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't do any of that.

23             MR. COLE:  Well --

24             MR. ALARID:  If the witness cannot, I can't push him any further.

25             MR. COLE:  That takes care of my objection, the witness's answer.

Page 2748

 1     Thank you, sir, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, we're going to take the break now.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

 6             MR. ALARID:  And, Your Honour --

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Twenty minutes.

 8             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, since I am moving on, I would like to

 9     tender the witness statement of 15 April 2008, which is 1D10-2775,

10     B/C/S 1D10-2780, into evidence.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

12             Mr. Cole.

13             MR. COLE:  Yes.  I'm not sure.  I think, Your Honour, that's the

14     statement of Mr. Ustamujic.

15             MR. ALARID:  No.

16             MR. COLE:  It's not?

17             MR. ALARID:  The statement of Mr. Ustamujic is a Gorazde sector

18     SUP statement from the 3rd of April, 1996 that was tendered with the

19     packet of this witness.

20             MR. COLE:  Can I just be clear, then, which statement counsel is

21     seeking to be admitted now?

22             MR. ALARID:  The supplemental statement by this witness of 15 of

23     April 2008.

24             MR. COLE:  Yes, I'm sorry.  I have no objection.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  It is admitted as 1D64, Your Honours.

Page 2749

 1             MR. ALARID:

 2        Q.   And, sir, before I move on further, I would like to refer you to

 3     a statement made by you earlier in your testimony, when I queried you

 4     about basically:  "Then, again, wouldn't it have been an excellent

 5     opportunity in April of 2008 ..."

 6             MR. ALARID:  Can we go to the transcript page 66, lines 1

 7     through 4.

 8        Q.   "Then, again, wouldn't it have been an excellent opportunity in

 9     April of 2008 to have brought up Ms. Zukic's vehicle?"

10             Your answer was:  "Well, how should I would know?  No one asked.

11     That's all I can tell you."

12             So what I'm asking you, sir, is:  Who asked you this week about

13     the Zukic vehicle that might have refreshed your recollection to mention

14     her in your most recent proofing session?

15        A.   I wanted myself to mention it.

16             MR. ALARID:  Can we bring up 1D10-3184, the statement of

17     Mr. Ustamujic.

18        Q.   Now, sir, while we're bringing that on the screen, how well did

19     you know Mr. Sevko Ustamujic?

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2750

 1        Q.   Did you know him to have been working through June of -- of 1992

 2     at the Varda factory?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Assuming he had been working inside the factory, would you defer

 5     to his recollection of the death of Cancar?

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Ask another question.  It doesn't help

 7     whether he would defer to the recollection of somebody else.

 8             MR. ALARID:

 9        Q.   Did you know that Mr. Ustamujic had given a statement regarding

10     the shooting of Cancar Musan and Nedzad Bektas?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Had you heard of an earlier kidnapping from the Varda factory

13     that occurred approximately 15 or 16 days, on May 25th, 1992?

14        A.   No.

15             MR. COLE:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

17             MR. COLE:  It's a redaction matter, if I could, on page 71,

18     line 9.  It's giving an indication of his association with the Varda

19     factory.  I wonder if we could have lines 9 to 11 redacted -- well, in

20     fact, lines 7 to 11, because there certainly the English is a little bit

21     ambiguous; 7 to 11 on page 71.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The reference to the Varda factory, is it?

23             MR. COLE:  Yes, sir.  It's an indication that it may indicate his

24     connection with the Varda factory.  There are all sorts of matters that

25     are coming out now, but by putting them together, it can paint a picture.

Page 2751

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.  Yes, yes.  The court deputy will

 2     present that for the redaction.

 3             MR. ALARID:

 4        Q.   The date of the shooting that you witnessed at the Varda factory,

 5     you indicated that it may have started -- or the incident might have

 6     started any time between 9.00 and 11.00.  Is that your testimony?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did you see a freight vehicle with a yellow tarpaulin arrive at

 9     the front gate of the sawmill?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Now, would it be fair to say that the area that we're -- or that

12     you've described today is not the front gate of the Varda factory?  Is

13     that true?

14        A.   I don't know how to describe it.

15        Q.   Isn't it true that the area where the guard shack is known as the

16     workers' entrance and not the front entrance?

17        A.   No.  It's only the entrance to the sawmill.

18        Q.   Would it be fair to say that that's where the workers at the

19     sawmill would enter?

20        A.   Not that gate.

21        Q.   Did you know Muho --

22        A.   I haven't heard the name well.

23        Q.   It's Podzic, P-o-d-z-i-c?

24        A.   Podzic, you mean.

25        Q.   Yes, sir.  Do you know him?

Page 2752

 1        A.   Yes.  He was the manager at the sawmill in Varda.

 2        Q.   And do you know Ramiz Karaman?

 3        A.   Yes.  He was the foreman in the timber section.

 4        Q.   Now, did you know some Serbians named Nenad Tanaskovic, otherwise

 5     known as Neso?

 6        A.   Vaguely.  I seem to remember he was a driver.

 7        Q.   Well, actually, wasn't it Slavko Trifkovic that was one of the

 8     Varda drivers before the war?

 9        A.   I can't seem to recall that.

10        Q.   Did you know some workers at the factory named --

11             MR. ALARID:  And if, just in case I do mispronounce, we could go

12     to page 2 of the statement in B/C/S and English, as the names are written

13     on that page.

14        Q.   Now, I'm looking at the middle of the page, sir, of at some names

15     of the workers at the factory.

16             Do you know a Nusret Dzafic?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Did you know an Islam Cero?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Did you know a Husein Mujakic?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   But you did know Nedzad Bektas; correct?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   If I were to tell you that the aforementioned workers witnessed

25     Nedzad being taken away by Tanaskovic and Trifkovic, what would you have

Page 2753

 1     to say about that?

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   If I were to tell you that Mr. Ustamujic did not mention Milan

 4     Lukic being present on June 10, 1992 in the abduction and killing of

 5     Nedzad, what would you have to say about that?

 6        A.   You should first ask him where he was hiding.

 7        Q.   If he was in the factory, would that be a better vantage point

 8     than where you were in hiding by the barrels and the henhouse?

 9             MR. COLE:  Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole.

11             MR. COLE:  Well, "in the factory" could be anywhere, and, with

12     respect, it's not an appropriate line of questioning.  "If I were to tell

13     you," we don't know what the basis of that is; but, I suppose, in

14     summary, Your Honour, it's just not an appropriate line of questioning to

15     put some hypothetical issue to the witness.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I agree.  I agree, Mr. Alarid.

17             Move on.

18             MR. ALARID:

19        Q.   Did you know --

20             MR. ALARID:  And going to page 3 of the statement for the names,

21     please.

22        Q.   Did you know a worker, Abdulah Hamak [sic]?

23        A.   It's not Hamak, it's Jamak.  Yes, he was a warestock worker in

24     the workshop.

25        Q.   And did you know Memis Cancar?

Page 2754

 1        A.   No.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's collection:  Warehouse not

 3     warestock.

 4             MR. ALARID:

 5        Q.   Did you know Camil Kesmer?

 6        A.   No.

 7             MR. ALARID:  Just a moment, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   This person that you claimed to be Milan Lukic, did you ever get

 9     a look at his face?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did he have any facial hair or distinguishing features that you

12     could notice from that vantage other than what you've already described

13     in your statement?

14        A.   He was clean-shaven.

15             MR. ALARID:  At this time, Your Honour, I would tender 1D10-3184

16     into evidence, and we would have no further questions.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole.

18             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.  I presume the counsel is

19     talking about the statement of Mr. Ustamujic which we can see on the

20     screen.  In my submission, just because counsel runs through a list of

21     names and puts them to a witness, and here even getting a no, in most

22     cases is not a basis for admission of the statement of a person who is

23     not a witness in this case into the evidence through this witness.  There

24     is no relevance that I can see.

25             On top of that, I think some notification that this statement

Page 2755

 1     will be part of the Defence cross-examination came through at about 9.00

 2     this morning.  So if there's any suggestion it might be admitted, I would

 3     certainly like the opportunity to read it.

 4             If I could just have a moment.

 5             So, first, just summarising, it hasn't been shown that it's

 6     relevant in any way, and, of course, counsel is free to call this person

 7     as a witness if he wants to get this evidence before the Court.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 9             On those two points, Mr. Alarid.

10             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour, I think what's important is

11     that - and, you know, I know the Prosecution has made this caveat

12     before - is that they're sort of not responsible for the content of

13     statements that they've, in fact, tendered to us through the discovery

14     and disclosure process.  However, what we do have is a signed and regular

15     statement of the witness that I think, on its face, is -- is very

16     reliable.

17             I think certain points within the statement, with regards to this

18     witness and his knowledge of the persons at the Varda factory, have been

19     confirmed, and, of course, some have been denied; and I wouldn't have

20     expected otherwise from someone who had been retired interest the factory

21     for 10 years prior to the incident.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But the point being made is about the statement

23     that you're seeking to tender now.

24             MR. ALARID:  And I would simply tender it as a statement that is

25     inconsistent with the testimony of the witness, that is otherwise regular

Page 2756

 1     on its face, and within a fact that we are operating in a Tribunal that

 2     doings accept hearsay, and foundational issues that I think would make

 3     admission of this proper.

 4             In the alternative, Your Honour, I would ask simply that the map

 5     be attached, the handwritten map, as an alternative, but I believe that

 6     it is proper for the entire statement to come in.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  This is an age-old issue in the Tribunal.  Let

 8     us see how we will decide it.

 9             MR. ALARID:  And I believe we marked the map, Your Honour.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole, anything more on this point,

12     particularly if you have anything from the jurisprudence of the Tribunal.

13             MR. COLE:  I don't have any jurisprudence, but if I could make

14     these points, please, sir.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

16             MR. COLE:  Firstly, statements --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             MR. COLE:  Firstly, sir, I don't have anything from the

19     jurisprudence point of view; but, of course, statements and material is

20     disclosed to the Defence with good and bad.  We don't select what goes

21     outs, so not everything supports the Prosecution's case, of course.

22             Now, the statement in question, the witness hasn't read it, I

23     presume.  He hasn't been asked.  Counsel hasn't read it.  I don't know if

24     the Chamber has read the contents of it.  In any event, the witness

25     didn't agree that he knew most of the names that were contained in the

Page 2757

 1     statement that was put to him.  It hasn't been authenticated.

 2     Presumably, it's the statement of this man, but it hasn't been

 3     authenticated.  There is the process of 92 bis or 92 ter or calling,

 4     potentially calling, the witness viva voce, if counsel wants to do that.

 5             In relation to the map that was drawn, as I recall, the witness

 6     did make a mark on the map; but, then, with counsel's concession, which

 7     was that he concedes the guard shack was not on the map, so the focal

 8     point of this is not even on the map.  Then I think the witness, and I

 9     haven't looked at the spot, but I think we would find the witness wasn't

10     able to help in the end.  He was summarising a little bit confusing, the

11     map.

12             So, in total, my friend, with respect, hasn't substantiated why

13     this witness statement should be introduced into evidence through this

14     witness.  There's -- the connection is far too tenuous and I would object

15     strongly.

16             Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, very quickly.

18             MR. ALARID:  Briefly, Your Honour.  Simply, I think we've offered

19     this staple not necessarily for the truth of the matter asserted because

20     that's for a later date, and I can see that to raise the level of

21     reliability of this statement for the Chamber's purposes; and, of course,

22     you're in the position to gauge the weight or credibility of any piece of

23     evidence that we submit.

24             However, we did put this to this witness, and I think from an

25     impeachment of -- of this witness, it is proper; and without the other

Page 2758

 1     safeguard --

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But he denied everything.

 3             MR. ALARID:  Well, but what he -- but what he did was he did

 4     admit that some of these workers were there.  And what I find surprising

 5     is we've been presented with a witness that has no reference to the

 6     actual date and time as noted in the indictment.  Here, I've submitted a

 7     witness statement taken before this witness ever gave his first

 8     statement --

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We have no authentication of this statement,

10     Mr. Alarid.

11             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour, I mean, again, it appears regular

12     on its face, and I think it could be you --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please slow down.  The French

14     booth really cannot follow.  Thank you.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, we are not with you on this one.

17     The points made by the Prosecutor are valid, in our view; and something

18     that occurs to me, personally, is the total lack of authentication.  You

19     may, of course, call this person as an a witness in your case, should you

20     be called upon to present a case.

21             MR. ALARID:  Well, and I agree, Your Honour.  I mean, in all due

22     diligence, we do have to follow up on these leads when they come up.  I

23     mean, I think that's very important, and that's why I was hoping at least

24     to tender it at this point, not for the weight, understanding the

25     limitations --

Page 2759

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Counsel is kindly asked to slow down when

 2     speaking.  The interpreters cannot follow.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  [Previous translation continues] ... your

 4     cross-examination.

 5             Any re-examination Mr. Cole -- sorry.

 6             Mr. Cepic, you wish to --

 7             MR. CEPIC:  Just very few questions.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very few questions.  I'm sorry.

 9             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.  May I?

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.  My name is Djuro Cepic,

13     and I appear here for Sredoje Lukic as his Defence counsel.

14             Before I proceed to question, I wish to say on behalf of Sredoje

15     Lukic and all our Defence team that we sympathise greatly with all your

16     loss and suffering, the loss of your sons in particular, and other

17     members of your family.

18             Let me go back to just one part of your evidence.  You said you

19     had known Djordje Lukic, and I have just a few more questions on that.

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2760

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole.

 2             MR. COLE:  Yes, sir.  Your Honour, it's a redaction matter here,

 3     and it may be preferable, if we're going to go into intimate details

 4     about relationships with people at particular small locations.  That it

 5     be in private session.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, I see that.

 7             Be careful, Mr. Cepic.

 8             MR. CEPIC:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Would you bring that for redaction.  It's to

10     the hotel, is it?

11             MR. COLE:  Perhaps, if we could have it in redaction from line

12     19 down to where I lodged the objection.

13             Thank you, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, yes.

15             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.  I'll try to do my best to avoid any

16     problem in that relation.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, let us just go back to my question.

18             Along with you and that gentleman with whom you played bingo,

19     there was also a policeman from Visegrad, Sredoje Lukic, also playing

20     bingo at the same table; correct?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Of course, you know that Djordje Lukic had sons.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you knew his son, the policeman?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2761

 1        Q.   That was police officer Sredoje Lukic; correct?

 2        A.   As far as I'm concerned, he was a very good man.

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9             MR. COLE:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm sorry.  Almost the totality of

10     the witness's evidence has been about a particular factory, so I think

11     we're going to have that redacted as well.

12             So that's page 81, line 1 and 2.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well, yes.

14             MR. CEPIC:  Just to inform my learned friend, Mr. Cole, Visegrad

15     had 11 factories before the war.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, we will redact it ex abundante cautulae.

17             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] And then, sir, you will agree with me that,

19     during the war, you had not seen this police officer Sredoje Lukic?

20        A.   I did not.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you very much, sir.

22             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] No further questions.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

24             Mr. Cole.

25             MR. COLE:  Thank you, Your Honour, just briefly.

Page 2762

 1                           Re-examination by Mr. Cole:

 2        Q.   VG-017, in cross-examination by counsel for Milan Lukic, it was

 3     suggested that you couldn't, from your vantage spot at either behind the

 4     barrels or in the henhouse, see Ibrisim Memisevic at the Varda factory

 5     being taken out by Milan Lukic.  You understand what I'm saying there?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Did you see Ibrisim Memisevic being taken out of the factory by

 8     Milan Lukic?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. COLE:  I have no further questions.  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Witness, that concludes your

12     evidence.  We're grateful to you for coming to the Tribunal to give it.

13     You may now leave.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And are we in public session?  Yes.

16             Mr. Alarid.

17             MR. ALARID:  Just a brief point, Your Honour, because I did want

18     to clarify for the Court why I even tendered this statement to the

19     witness, of one the other persons.  It's simply because on the memorandum

20     to the Court that the Prosecution tendered to all of us indicating the

21     witnesses that were going to be called this week and the documents that

22     were going to be used through them, or potentially used through them, the

23     witness statement of Mr. Ustamujic was identified as being used through

24     this witness.

25             So it was on that pre-set that I pursued the line of questioning

Page 2763

 1     and actually requested the tendering of the statement because -- and

 2     somehow they indicated the relevance by putting it in the list of

 3     documents to be used through the witness.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Alarid.

 5             I want to deal with some procedural matters.

 6             First, you'll recollect that during the testimony of VG-142

 7     yesterday, I indicated that the statements that had been challenged by

 8     Mr. Alarid would be marked for identification pending the

 9     cross-examination.  No evidence was adduced in the cross-examination that

10     would bar their admission, and those statements will therefore be

11     admitted.

12             Now, I move next to some other matters relating to the case as a

13     whole, and I want to give some dates.

14             The close of the Prosecution case and the disclosure required by

15     both Defence teams to the Prosecution are expected to take place on the

16     following dates:  The close of the Prosecution case is anticipated to be

17     Thursday, 6th November; the 98 bis submissions will be presented on

18     Tuesday, 11th November; the Chamber's judgement on those submissions will

19     be rendered on Wednesday, 12th November.

20             Pursuant to Rule 66(A)(i), from Thursday, 13th November, both

21     Defence teams will permit the Prosecution to inspect and copy various

22     items in the custody or control of the Defence which are intended for use

23     by the Defence teams as evidence at trial.  Pursuant to Rule 67(A)(ii),

24     on the 13th of November, both Defence teams will provide to the

25     Prosecution witness statements of all witnesses the Defence teams intend

Page 2764

 1     to call at trial, and copies of all statements taken pursuant to Rules

 2     92 bis, 92 ter, and 92 quater.

 3             In view of the above, the Chamber varies its previous order

 4     regarding the filing of Rule 65 ter (G) submissions by the Defence.  Both

 5     Defence teams will now file their submissions pursuant to this Rule on

 6     the 13th of November.

 7             In the event that the Defence of both accused are called upon to

 8     present their case, on Thursday, 20th November, Sredoje Lukic will

 9     present his case, will commence the presentation of his case.

10             The Chamber recalls that on the 15th of September, it made an

11     oral ruling in which it decided that, as a result of granting Milan

12     Lukic's request for a four-day sitting week and scheduling a two-week

13     break between the 13th and the 22nd of October, there would be no break

14     between the Prosecution and the Defence cases.

15             Milan Lukic has requested reconsideration or certification to

16     appeal this oral ruling on the basis that counsel needs more time in

17     order to adequately prepare his defence.

18             The Chamber considers that the Scheduling Order just presented

19     sufficiently addresses any need for more time to prepare Milan Lukic's

20     defence.  In particular, it notes that Milan Lukic will not be required

21     to present his defence until after Sredoje Lukic.

22             The Chamber also considers that no clear error of reasoning has

23     been demonstrated, and, moreover, that it is not necessary to reconsider

24     the earlier decision to prevent an injustice.  Furthermore, the grounds

25     for granting certification for appeal as set out in Rule 73 are not met.

Page 2765

 1             This Chamber, therefore, denies the request for reconsideration

 2     or certification to appeal.

 3             Those are the matters I wanted to deal with, and you may now call

 4     the next witness if there is one.  No?

 5             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution has no other witnesses.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  In that event, the trial is adjourned until

 8     Monday, the 27th of October.  Use the time well, Mr. Alarid.

 9             MR. ALARID:  I'll try, Your Honour, I will.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And Mr. Cepic.

11             MR. CEPIC:  I'm already prepared.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.22 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day of

15                           October, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.