081103ED

Page 3199

1 Monday, 3 November 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 8.52 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: There are some matters that I have to raise

6 before the witnesses are called; and they all arise, I believe, from the

7 notice filed by the Prosecution of the witnesses it intends to call in

8 the coming week, that is this week, the 3rd to the 6th.

9 Now, Zehra Turjacanin will resume her testimony tomorrow, and the

10 sitting scheduled for that day will, as you appreciate, have to be

11 adjusted to allow the Judges to attend the plenary. It will help us in

12 this respect to know how much more time the Defence intend to take with

13 this witness, and Mr. Alarid has so far been cross-examining for an hour

14 and 20 minutes. Mr. Alarid, how much longer will you be?

15 MR. ALARID: Good morning, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Morning.

17 MR. ALARID: With regard to Ms. Turjacanin, I must say I -- this

18 is one of those witnesses that I think, one, the manner in which she

19 testifies is very slow and deliberate and sometimes was unclear. I think

20 it's going to take a long time. It's difficult to estimate. I simply

21 want to get through the allegations in her statement, and I was going to

22 go step by step as best we could to get through the allegations we had

23 barely scratched at the time period involving the actual allegations of

24 the fire in Bikavac, but we hadn't really covered the days before in

25 terms of her testifying. I think we were simply at an incident she

Page 3200

1 witnessed or alleged to have witnessed where someone's throat was cut,

2 and she was describing that when we took the break, and she did not come

3 back. So along those lines, I could at least see taking over an hour

4 with her.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right, Mr. Alarid. The Prosecutor spent two

6 hours and 10 minutes. You have utilized an hour and 20 minutes.

7 MR. ALARID: And if need be --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: You would have another 50 minutes to have equal

9 time with the Prosecutor. You say you would need about an hour.

10 MR. ALARID: That was my hope. That was my hope.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let's work on that basis. Let's work on

12 the basis that you will take another hour, and that's what we will --

13 MR. ALARID: We'll shoot for that, absolutely.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Yes. Mr. Cepic.

15 MR. CEPIC: Morning, Your Honour. I will try to make it as short

16 as is possible, but just to keep reserve, maybe up to 1 hour and 20

17 minutes. That is the ...

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: One hour and 20 minutes. Yes.

19 MR. CEPIC: Just to keep the reserve.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Groome, WG-131. Should we be in

21 private session? Let me check with the ... do you want us to be in

22 private session?

23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, as long as we don't go into the

24 specifics of the testimony, I think we can refer to them by pseudonym for

25 scheduling purpose in open session.

Page 3201

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. WG-131 is expected to testify after

2 Zehra Turjacanin either on Tuesday or on Wednesday. Now, this witness is

3 listed as a viva voce witness on the list of 30th of October, but in the

4 annex to the motion, to add this witness a time estimate was given of 30

5 minutes utilizing Rule 92 ter. And the Chamber has not received any

6 application to hear this witness pursuant to Rule 92 ter, and this is a

7 second or third time that this has happened. What is the position with

8 regard to this witness, Mr. Groome?

9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I apologise for that. That is an

10 oversight on my part. I think this may be a witness that it may been

11 inappropriate to take 92 ter. The disclosure for this witness included

12 many, many statements that she has given. She's one of the few witnesses

13 that has given, I think, about eight or nine statements, so I think it

14 might be best that this witness be taken viva voce, and the Prosecution

15 estimates that it would take about an hour and a half for her testimony

16 for her direct evidence.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. The list of witnesses does not

18 include VG-138.

19 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. The Chamber had expressed some

20 concern earlier about the Prosecution anticipating or making too definite

21 plans for arrangement of witnesses to travel before the Chamber had ruled

22 on their -- whether they would be permitted to add them. VG-138 is

23 prepared to come for this the end of this week. The tentative travel

24 plans have been made for tomorrow, Tuesday, but the Chamber's decision on

25 whether he can be added is still pending. The same is true for Dr.

Page 3202

1 Fagel, although he lives in The Hague, so he can be called upon in very

2 short notice; but VG-138, we would need to have a decision by the Chamber

3 no latest, tomorrow morning before we could have him travel here in time

4 for the end of the week.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Because that was my inquiry, whether the

6 intention was to call them now or...

7 MR. GROOME: It's still our intention to call them now, Your

8 Honour. I instructed Mr. Van Hooydonk to take them off because as we had

9 not a had a decision from the Chamber at the end of last week, I thought

10 it might be a bit presumptuous to put them on the definite schedule for

11 the week.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. The decision will be given today.

13 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, just to be heard on that issue, I

14 assumed when I saw the schedule and whatnot and also the appeals decision

15 allowing placement of alibi rebuttal at the end or after the Defence

16 case, I assumed that that was what the Prosecution was going to do, was

17 bring them after the end. But I didn't -- obviously, we're raising it.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any comments on that?

19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, other than to point out that Mr.

20 Alarid's response to the motion to add him, not only did he agree but he

21 encouraged that the witness be called at the earliest opportunity, so I

22 don't think it prejudices him or his client that he would be called at

23 the end of this week.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 3222

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.

16 MS. SARTORIO:

17 Q. Now, Witness VG-024, I'm going to ask you whether in May or June

18 of 1992, did you ever see anyone come inside the factory who was not an

19 employee of the factory?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And who did you see?

22 A. I saw Milan Lukic. I saw Momir Savic. I saw quite a few of

23 people that I did not know. Milan Lukic was almost a regular visitor.

24 Q. And when he was a regular visitor, what would he be doing in the

25 factory?

Page 3223

1 A. He would just walk through the factory sometimes, but on the

2 25th, this was not so, on the 25th of May, 1992. And on the 9th of June,

3 he did not just pass through, in 1992.

4 Q. And I will ask you about that in a moment, but did you -- what

5 did you think when you saw him, and did you discuss with your co --

6 colleagues and co-employees what he was doing there and what you all

7 thought about that?

8 A. When he used to come and did not bother anybody, we thought we

9 were safe once we got to the factory and that nobody would be bothering

10 us. We commented this by saying, oh, we are safe and nobody is going to

11 harm us. Comments were -- well, until when are we going to be safe? We

12 really desired peace. We never thought what was going on was possible.

13 Q. Now, you mentioned the 25th of May, 1992. Can you tell us what,

14 if anything, happened on that day, that you recall?

15 A. Yes. It was sometime around 9.30, and there was a Zastava truck

16 coming to the gate that used to be in possession of Milan Kosoric. Milan

17 Lukic came to the main gate. I could see that area, and he went through

18 the department Ploca B. He was looking for Mirsad Mirvic. He was

19 standing in for the foreman down at the department. Mirsad had hidden

20 because somebody told him that he was looking for him, and he was hiding

21 in the office. Then Lukic went to the machining department where he

22 collected Bakir Zulovic. Then he came back to my department, and Meho

23 Ohranovic and Milan - I can't remember his family name; I'm very sorry

24 about that - were working at a certain machine. Milan came to him and

25 said, I'm Milan, as well, and he said something else, which I did not

Page 3224

1 understand. He instructed Meho to turn the machine off. Meho did so,

2 Meho Ohranovic, I mean. And he walked over to the adjoining machine and

3 collected Hajrudin Luban and he took all three of them towards the exit.

4 In the meantime, Dragica came to him and told him where Mirsad Mirvic was

5 hidden. He took those three men to the truck, and when my foreman Nijaz

6 Kurtalic approached me and said, Milan, that those men were supposed to

7 work, he said, leave it, I'll be bringing them back after I've questioned

8 them.

9 And when he escorted those three people to the truck, he came

10 back to collect Mirsad Mirvic. Of course, in the meantime we all

11 gathered around the gate to see what was going to be happening next.

12 Then he collected, also, another man who came here to verify his work

13 record. His name was Veljan Ismet, and he ordered those five men to

14 climb onto the truck, and then he drove away with them to an unknown

15 destination.

16 Q. And did you hear Milan Lukic say anything to any of these men?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And did you see any of these men after this incident?

19 A. No. Those men never appeared. I asked my neighbour Jovisa

20 Planojevic about them, suggesting that something had to be done to save

21 them. He said if they were taken to Prelovo, then they are not among the

22 living anymore.

23 Q. Did you know the families of some or all of these men?

24 A. I knew them more than I knew about their families. I know where

25 they came from judging by their family names, but I did not know much

Page 3225

1 about them. They were just co-workers.

2 Q. Have you ever spoken with any of their families to determine

3 whether they have been found?

4 A. Yes. I asked Hajrudin Zuban's wife whether she knew anything

5 about that, and Ismet Veljan's wife as well. They said they knew nothing

6 at all. They hadn't even found their mortal remains by this time.

7 Q. Now, I'd like to draw your attention to the second date that you

8 mentioned earlier in your testimony, in June. Can you tell us what, if

9 anything, happened on a day in June, and what day that was?

10 A. It was the 9th of June, the day before Bajram, which is a Muslim

11 holiday. We were working that day. I came to work that day because the

12 next day we were off. It was a holiday. And at about half past 11,

13 Mirko Dukanovic walked up to me and told me to go behind the factory

14 because it was nearly noon. However, as soon as I turned around, I

15 realised that Milan Lukic was coming my way. As soon as I set eyes on

16 him -- we passed each other. I passed him and I smiled. I walked

17 further down toward the more distant section of the factory, which you

18 can see in this photograph. I'd noticed Sabahudin Velagic, one of our

19 electricians. He was sitting there, and there was also Lutvo Tabakovic.

20 I walked up to Sabahudin and said, Sabahudin, what are you doing here?

21 And he said, they left me here to wait. I said run, run for it.

22 There were some senior workers from our factory who were fixing

23 perhaps some of the machinery that had broken down. There was Budimir

24 Gladanac, Slobodan Pehovic, and another man named Slobodan whose last

25 name I can't remember. They said they could not allow him to get away

Page 3226

1 because he had told them to keep an eye on both of them.

2 I headed for the exit, still scared. I and this -- these two

3 mates of mine, Naza and Hajra, were on our way. I was still feeling

4 unsettled and restless, so I went back to see what was going on. Milan

5 then emerged from the polish section of the factory, bringing Hamed

6 Osmanagic and Nusret Aljusevic with him and the other two. And then on

7 his way, he met Ibrisim Memisevic. He took them to the sawmill --

8 Q. May I interrupt you. It looks like the names did not get taken

9 down in the transcript. Can you tell us again -- and just so we back up

10 you said "I headed for the exit, still scared." So did you exit the

11 factory for any period of time?

12 A. I had left for about two or three minutes, enough time for him to

13 go over to the polish department to get Aljusevic and Hamed Osmanagic,

14 and then I left the factory compound again. I was uneasy with myself, so

15 I walked back to the door to see what was going on, and I saw him take

16 those men away. He was now heading for the exit, for the Masif [phoen]

17 Ploca section of the factory, and was on his way to the sawmill. He

18 didn't take them out the main gate, the one that we use, but rather, took

19 them towards the sawmill, which is the direction that he had emerged from

20 previously.

21 Q. Thank you. I need to -- again, could you give us the names of

22 the men at this point that he -- those men that he took away, as you

23 said, and please speak slowly if you could so that the transcriber can

24 get the names down on the record. The first name, the one person, could

25 you give us that name?

Page 3227

1 A. Sabahudin Velagic.

2 Q. And the second name?

3 A. Lutvo Tabakovic.

4 Q. And the third name?

5 A. Nusret Aljusevic.

6 Q. Okay. They still didn't get the second name. Could you spell

7 the second -- the person that you named second, please, if you can

8 recall.

9 A. Lutvo. L-u-t-v-o. And the family name is Tabakovic.

10 Q. And could you also spell the third name that you mentioned?

11 A. Nusret. Aljusevic. A-l-j-u-s-e-v-i-c.

12 Q. Now, after you saw them taking -- saw Milan taking them towards

13 the sawmill, what did you see next?

14 A. One thing that you have to keep in mind is that Ahmed Osmanagic

15 and Ibrisim Memisevic were there, too, a total of five men he picked up

16 at the factory.

17 Q. And what did he do when he picked them up?

18 A. He headed for the sawmill, and I hadn't realised that he had

19 picked up another two men from the sawmill. We were scared and were

20 trying to find out what might happen, so we left the factory compound.

21 However, the grass was pretty tall in June. We ducked and walked through

22 the grass in a bit to get through unobserved.

23 But these men were then taken through the main gate, out of the

24 factory and down as far as the Drina River bank. We could only see what

25 was going on, but we didn't actually hear anyone utter any specific

Page 3228

1 words. But he had obviously ordered them to take off their jackets,

2 their working uniform, overalls. When we realised what might happen, we

3 ran.

4 Q. And after you ran, did you see or hear anything?

5 A. There was a burst of fire, a long one. We went back to our

6 section. I had removed my overall.

7 Q. And now, when you were outside the building and you just

8 testified about what you saw and heard, did you see anyone else around

9 the area?

10 A. Yes. There was another person there. I was now back, and I

11 realised that they had taken those men away. I went back to see Suljo

12 Velagic -- Velagic's father to tell him that they had taken his son away,

13 or rather, that Milan Lukic had taken his son away. So he went there

14 too. He saw this for himself and then went back. He got his son's bike

15 and rode it over to the MUP building to file a complaint. But then he,

16 too, ended up on the Drina bridge that same day. This, however, is

17 hearsay, something I heard from somebody else.

18 Q. Just for clarification, you went back to see Suljo, and could you

19 give the last name again, please?

20 A. Sure. Velagic.

21 Q. And you testified that you told him they had taken his son away.

22 Then you went on to testify: "So he went there too. He saw this for

23 himself and went back." Can you tell us where he went, what he saw, and

24 what he told you?

25 A. Once he was back, he held his head in his hands, and he said, now

Page 3229

1 that my son's gone, my life's worth nothing. He got young Sabahudin's

2 jacket and bike, and he rode all the way to the MUP building. Nothing

3 has been heard of him since.

4 Q. Now, what did you do next?

5 A. I removed my overall. I dropped it next to the machine. I

6 didn't even go to the wardrobe to get a change of clothes, and I walked

7 back home, which was quite a long way, the distance between the factory

8 and the centre of town. On my way, I came across one of my neighbours, a

9 lady named Marta who was an employee of the new hotel.

10 Q. Okay. Now, and then is the factory located -- are there

11 residential homes around the factory?

12 A. Yes. There are some houses behind the factory, but there is a

13 place that we referred to as the dungeon, and there are no houses over

14 there, just the river Drina.

15 Q. And did you see any -- any people in these houses when you were

16 outside the factory?

17 A. Yes. Just after he had taken those men through to the sawmill

18 gate, I realized that in one of the homes over there, there were a number

19 of people standing on the balcony, and I heard a child scream as well.

20 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, may the court usher please bring up

21 65 ter number 178.60.

22 Q. Witness, do you recognise what is shown in this photograph?

23 A. The photograph shows the Dusce area and shows you the Varda

24 factory, the sawmill, and houses just beyond the factory.

25 MS. SARTORIO: I would ask that the court usher give the witness

Page 3230

1 assistance.

2 Q. Witness, can you show for us what -- if you see your building in

3 which you worked at the Varda factory, and particularly, if you could

4 circle the section of the building in which you worked, if you remember.

5 A. Sure. It was this section. This was Ploca B section, and this

6 is Ploca A section.

7 Q. And for the record, these are markings -- is this on the roof of

8 the factory that you've just made these markings?

9 A. Yes. Yes, yes. It's the roof.

10 Q. Could you put a number 1 beside your markings, please. Okay.

11 Now, can you identify from this photo the entrance to the building where

12 you saw Milan Lukic enter on the 25th of May, 1992. And if so, could you

13 put a number 2 there.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. And if you see the sawmill in this photograph, would you please

16 write a number 3 on the sawmill.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Now, are you able to draw from this photograph where you exited

19 the factory, and you said there were some -- there was some growth and

20 you walked, and you saw the men being led down to the river. Can you

21 draw that route on this map?

22 A. Sure. Although the photograph is rather small scale, but we left

23 the compound this way. This is the gate, and then I walked here through

24 this section, and we went as far as this point. Therefore, when those

25 men were leaving the gate, we had a clear view of everything that was

Page 3231

1 going on.

2 Q. And did you see a vehicle at all parked in this area?

3 A. Yes. I saw the Passat that Milan Lukic was using at the time.

4 Q. If you remember where you saw that - I realize this is small

5 scale - but could you put a number 4.

6 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, I ask that this photograph be

7 admitted in evidence, please.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P190.

11 MS. SARTORIO: And may the court usher please bring up 65 ter

12 number 178.02.

13 Q. Witness, are you able to tell us what is depicted in this

14 photograph?

15 A. This shows the furniture factory, the sawmill, and some of the

16 houses further up the slope behind the factory. The village is called

17 Dusce.

18 Q. And could you put a marking, a number 1, where you said you saw

19 the sawmill?

20 A. Sure.

21 Q. And are you able to tell us from this photograph where

22 approximately you -- the line that you drew in the previous picture where

23 you said you stopped, can you see it in this picture and indicate with a

24 2 where you stopped?

25 A. [Marks]

Page 3232

1 Q. And can you tell us where you saw Milan Lukic and the men, and if

2 so, put a 3?

3 A. You mean when he took them down to the Drina River?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Now, Witness, was that -- there's a -- do you see a wall in this

7 picture, in front of the Drina River?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was that wall there in 1992?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you could see -- you could still see over the wall?

12 A. Yes, one could. There was a meadow stretching all the way down

13 to the river bank, and the river bank was in plain view.

14 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I ask that this photograph be

15 admitted in evidence.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be Exhibit P191.

18 MS. SARTORIO: And, Your Honours, I have one more photograph and

19 just a few questions. I realise I have used up my one and a half hours.

20 If I could have five to ten more minutes, I would appreciate it.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

22 MS. SARTORIO: Would you like to take the break now or have me

23 finish?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, finish.

25 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. Okay.

Page 3233

1 May the witness now be shown Exhibit P153.

2 Q. Witness, can you tell us, is this a picture of the same area that

3 you've just been looking at for the last two photographs except a wider

4 view?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And are you able to tell us where you saw those people on the

7 balcony, if you can identify the house in this photograph.

8 A. Sure. This house right here.

9 Q. Could you put a "1" by the house, please.

10 A. This one and this other one, these are the two houses, but I saw

11 people lined up along windows and balconies.

12 Q. And could you also put a number 2 where you said you saw the red

13 Passat in an earlier photo?

14 MR. ALARID: She's already used number 2, Your Honour.

15 MS. SARTORIO: Oh, sorry. Thank you. Number 3. Sorry.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

17 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, may this photograph be admitted in

18 evidence.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be Exhibit P192.

21 MS. SARTORIO:

22 Q. Witness, is your mother still alive?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And when did she die?

25 A. 2002.

Page 3234

1 Q. Do you know --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.

3 MR. CEPIC: I haven't found any details in the summary for this

4 witness related to her mother, and I think that there is no testimony

5 about her mother in the previous statements, so I don't see the relevance

6 of these questions.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: We don't know whether they are relevant, but

8 let's hear from Ms. Sartorio. Mr. Alarid.

9 MR. ALARID: Along the same vein, Your Honour, originally this

10 witness was not disclosed with regards to any information related to the

11 Hasan Veletovac Elementary School or any information regarding the

12 evening of the Bikavac fire or anything related around that time period,

13 and so if we take that in perspective, this is all new evidence not

14 disclosed in the 65 ter.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Sartorio.

16 MS. SARTORIO: I agree with that, Your Honour, and this new

17 evidence came up yesterday, as well, and it was disclosed as soon as I

18 learned of it. And again, the Defence counsel can have time to bring her

19 back or -- if they need to, and they will also be able to cross-examine

20 her on these matters.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: You know, that may be so, Ms. Sartorio, but it's

22 going to extend the case.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I make the same ruling as I did earlier,

25 that Defence counsel, if they find it necessary, may apply to the Chamber

Page 3235

1 for further time to cross-examine.

2 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, in further consultation with

3 Mr. Groome, we will forego questions on that issue, on the Hasan

4 Veletovac school, but I will move on to the last topic.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.

6 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 Q. And can you be a little more specific about who you saw at the

20 adjacent house that belonged to Sredoje Lukic, if you have -- what --

21 A. Sredoje Lukic; his wife, Vidjenka; his children, several of them;

22 some of the children were his brother Rado's children. I saw Vidjenka,

23 Sredoje's wife.

24 Q. Did you see any other -- did you see the brother of Sredoje, or

25 sister?

Page 3236

1 A. Yes. Sredoje's brother would come over from Serbia. His name

2 was Slavko, meaning he, too, was in Visegrad. I saw a truck several

3 times loaded with furniture outside the Lukic's house.

4 Q. Now, after June of 1992, did you ever see Milan Lukic or Sredoje

5 Lukic in person again?

6 A. No. Sometime in 1994, I remember it was a Saturday, I was on my

7 way to my native village. I say "native" because that's the place I grew

8 up. So this was on a Saturday, and it was getting late. This was a dirt

9 road, macadam truck. A Jeep suddenly merged on that truck in front of us

10 and nearly hit my brother's car, and then the two brothers yelled, look,

11 Sredoje and Milan. So this was sometime in 1994.

12 Q. Are you sure it was 1994?

13 A. No, 2000 -- 2004. I'm sorry. 2004. I mixed the dates up, so

14 it's my fault. I meant 2004.

15 Q. Okay. Last question, Witness. Did you want to come to The Hague

16 and testify?

17 A. Well, I came to ease my conscience, that simple, to give a hand

18 to the victims and all those who suffered so that their families might

19 learn their fate.

20 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. I have no further questions.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We will adjourn now.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, begin your cross-examination.

25 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 3237

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

2 Q. Good morning, VG-24. My name is Jason Alarid, and I'm the

3 attorney for Milan Lukic. May I ask you a few questions?

4 A. Yes, of course. Go ahead.

5 Q. First things I'd like to do, though, is when you were advised

6 about coming here to testify today, I am assuming you were advised

7 regarding issues of telling the truth and perjury, correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Tell me what you were explained.

10 A. I've come here to tell the truth. I haven't come here to say

11 things that did not happen and that I did not see. I've come here to say

12 what I saw.

13 Q. No, I asked you to explain what you were told.

14 A. To tell the truth.

15 Q. Now, ma'am, were you also told that when you gave your first

16 statement in March of 1994?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And this was a statement given pursuant to Article 151 of The Law

19 of Criminal Procedure?

20 A. What do you mean by that?

21 Q. Maybe better way to do it is put on -- could the Court assistant

22 please put on 1D10-2991 which is the 14 of March, 1994, MUP statement,

23 and the B/C/S version is 1D10-2995.

24 Now, while we're waiting for that to come on the screen in front

25 of you, ma'am - you'll probably need your glasses for this - do you

Page 3238

1 recall giving that statement?

2 A. I don't understand English. Oh, that version. Let me see.

3 Q. Yes, ma'am, on the left is the English translation. On the right

4 is what we have.

5 A. Yes, yes. I recall I did give this statement.

6 Q. And let's talk about a little bit of background before that. You

7 indicated on direct examination that your last day there in Visegrad was

8 after you left your employment at the Varda factory, correct?

9 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honour. That's not her testimony.

10 MR. ALARID: I was going to go through the timeline.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, continue.

12 MR. ALARID:

13 Q. Now, the last day you worked at the Varda factory was June 9th,

14 correct?

15 A. Yes, but I did not leave Visegrad.

16 Q. So tell me how many days passed before you left Visegrad finally.

17 A. I left Visegrad on the 29th of June, 1992.

18 Q. And between the 29th -- or after the 29th of June, 1992, where

19 did you retreat to?

20 A. I went to the village of Okrugla close to Visegrad. It belongs

21 to the municipality of Visegrad, the village of Okrugla.

22 Q. And did you stay there and for how long?

23 A. I cannot recall exactly. I know that for a time we were in the

24 woods. Then we came to that village from the woods. The inhabitants of

25 that village received us. I cannot recall exactly how long we stayed

Page 3239

1 there in that village.

2 Q. And where did you finally settle and take up residence?

3 A. When that village was attacked, we went through the woods for

4 four days to Medjedja, which is also part of the Visegrad municipality.

5 Until September I was at Medjedja, and after that I went to Gorazde in

6 1992.

7 Q. And between 1992 and Gorazde and speaking with the MUP on the

8 14th of March, 1994, or around that time, had you given any other

9 statements?

10 A. No, I did not give any statements, but I did discuss this with my

11 friends, but I did not give any statements.

12 Q. Which friends did you discuss this with, and are any of them

13 presently witnesses in this case or ever have been?

14 A. I don't know who witnesses are. I do not impart the information

15 that I am a witness, too, so I do not inquire about people, whether they

16 are witnesses or not. I don't want to go into details.

17 Q. Well, you indicated that you discussed it with your friends. Are

18 you saying that you discussed the incidents at the Varda factory with

19 your friends?

20 A. Yes. I did give this statement because I wanted for the truth to

21 be known one day. I volunteered to give this statement in Gorazde so

22 that it be known what really happened in Visegrad back in 1992.

23 Q. And how did the word go out that you came to volunteer? How did

24 you know that you were able to give these statements regarding crimes in

25 Visegrad?

Page 3245

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted) I'm assuming that's being the civilian men - "were taken to

4 the police station where they were mainly interrogated. These people

5 never returned to their homes." And I want you to clarify that and --

6 regarding were civilian Muslim men taken to the police station.

7 A. Do you want me to tell you how many people were taken there?

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

20 MR. ALARID:

21 Q. And so of these people that were taken away, is it true that some

22 -- to the police station, is it true that some of them never returned to

23 their homes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it true that Muslims were beaten by the police at the SJB in

Page 3246

1 Visegrad?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is it correct that the police of Visegrad were also taking away

4 the personal vehicles of Muslims?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did your family experience that?

7 A. Well, I can say that we were, yeah.

8 Q. And is it true that at this time many homes were burnt in

9 Visegrad as well as mosques?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And do you recall who the commander of the police was in

12 Visegrad, and who was the chief of the SJB?

13 A. I don't recall because everything had been changed by that time.

14 When our people -- I mean the Muslims were leaving Visegrad, then nobody

15 knew who was appointed where. They were all the same.

16 Q. Did you know that Risto Perisic was the commander of the police?

17 A. I knew only that they were attacking all the settlements where

18 there were remaining Muslims, and I knew that Perisic was doing that.

19 Q. Did you know of Dragan Tomic as chief of police?

20 A. As I just told you, I did not go into details. I just know that

21 all of them were doing the same things.

22 Q. Did you know who the president of the SDS was, Savovic?

23 A. No, no, I did not know that. I know --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, I've waited long enough to see where

25 you are going with this. Where are you going with it?

Page 3247

1 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, I mean, the problem with

2 defending this kind case is we defend it both factually on individual

3 counts, such as ID issues and things like that; but from the perspective

4 of this as a war crime and my client's place in this war theatre, you

5 know, and I know I've hit this with a few other witnesses, but I think

6 it's an important point that's ultimately going to be made with

7 submissions regarding the political makeup and social and police makeup

8 of the region, and along the lines of, also, my client's ability to have

9 any real control over that situation.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, I just see this as being marginally

12 relevant to your case, so if you have more to ask on it, be very short

13 and move on.

14 MR. ALARID: I will, Your Honour.

15 Q. Is it true, ma'am, that it was not possible for anyone to travel

16 beyond the boundaries of Visegrad without permission or authorisation

17 from the police of Visegrad?

18 A. Yes, because I went there to get permission so that I could leave

19 Visegrad with my children. I asked what were -- the conditions were.

20 They told me that I should forsake my property and to say that I was

21 voluntary leaving the town, that I'm voluntary conceding all my property

22 and that I was leaving Visegrad.

23 There were people in front of the MUP building who were crying,

24 women, in fact, because their men had been collected at the Vucina

25 [phoen] settlement close to the Hasan Veletovac Primary School, and after

Page 3248

1 I'd seen what had happened, those women who were weeping, I returned home

2 and never even entertained a thought to proceed with this matter.

3 Q. And what was your understanding of who was giving out those

4 permissions and authorisations to leave?

5 A. I think that they did this in concert, the police, the SDS. They

6 continued telling us, you cannot remain living here, this is Serbia, you

7 have no place here, and that the Milosevic was -- could not tolerate us

8 here because it was Serbia.

9 Q. Did you participate in the rounding up of the Muslims in the

10 football stadium where Colonel Jovanovic landed in a helicopter and

11 addressed the Muslim population in Visegrad?

12 A. No, I did not.

13 Q. Did you ever hear that Colonel Jovanovic addressed the public

14 there indicating that he controlled the White Eagles?

15 A. I did not. I just told you I did not. I know when Uzice Corps

16 entered the area, I was at home with my husband, with my mother-in-law,

17 with my children; and I know that the local Serbs, my neighbours told me

18 that they would be protecting us, that nothing would happen to us, so we

19 came -- we went to the house of Milan Jevica [phoen], all of us Muslims

20 from the neighbourhood, and when the Uzice Corps entered the town, they

21 allowed us to return home. And I reiterate, while the Uzice Corps was

22 there, no harm came to us.

23 Q. Now, I would like to touch on your testimony regarding how you

24 knew the Lukic family. You indicate that you knew Milan Lukic came from

25 Rujiste, correct?

Page 3249

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And today, you testified that you knew his mother to be Kata and

3 his father to be Mile, correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. But you did review your statements in advance of today and also

6 did a proofing session, correct?

7 A. I read; I don't know exactly when, but even if I hadn't read the

8 statements, I would have remembered some of those things. Maybe I was

9 mistaking while giving my initial statements. There were the names of

10 Rade, and I was mistaken about the name in my first statements about

11 Milan Lukic.

12 Q. Well, ma'am, isn't it true that in your statement of 1994,

13 although you stated that you knew Milan Lukic very well, and ma'am, so

14 you can see this, you can see where Milan Lukic is referenced down below.

15 You mention that you knew him very well, that he was born in the village

16 of Rujiste not far from the village of Prelovo where he went to school,

17 and at that time: I was working as a sales assistant in the Prelovo

18 general store. Isn't that true that that's all you put in your 1994

19 statement regarding your knowledge and familiarity with Milan Lukic and

20 his family?

21 A. I knew Milan Lukic as much as he knew me, meaning he knew me as

22 well.

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3263

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 Q. Now, ma'am, the reason that you state that you remember the 25th

7 of May so well is because it was Youth Day; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And why do you remember Youth Day being the 25th?

10 A. We'd always wear those kerchiefs as pioneers, and then when Tito

11 died, forever after the 25th of May was Youth Day for all of us. Those

12 were the best of times, (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3264

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted) So it was on the eve of the Bajram holiday that he took those

5 people away.

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3265

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted) Then specifically, it then moves on to say, I was on the road

19 behind the factory, between the factory and the road leading to Visegrad,

20 and I heard shots from a weapon. I don't know how many. It was a burst

21 of fire."

22 A. The two of us had left, and we saw him lining up the people to be

23 killed. (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3266

11 Page 3266 redacted. Private session.

Page 3267

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted) why didn't you

6 bring this up in 1994 having actually witnessed the men taking off their

7 coveralls and seeing them lined up on the river?

8 A. Believe me, I did not know that this is -- was going to happen,

9 and trust me, many more things have not been brought to light.

10 Q. And, ma'am, isn't it true that nowhere in your 1998 statement nor

11 your 1994 statement do you mention seeing people in the houses adjacent

12 to the factory witnessing the same thing?

13 A. I thought that this was not that relevant, essential. I heard

14 this child scream, probably recognizing somebody of their own, but I

15 don't know. I never asked.

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted) when you are giving a report of a crime, don't you

23 think it's important to list every witness that you believe may have seen

24 the crime or seen something of the same that you saw?

25 A. Then I should have listed many others, Serb women, for instance.

Page 3268

11 Pages 3268-3269 redacted. Private session.

Page 3270

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted) Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 1D79.

20 MR. ALARID: And could we next put on 1D10-3012, please, and in

21 B/C/S, it's 1D10-3016.

22 Q. Now, ma'am, do you remember giving a statement (redacted)

23 (redacted) involving looking at photographs, and is that your

24 signature at the bottom?

25 A. Yes, that's my signature.

Page 3271

1 (redacted) isn't it true that on that date

2 you were shown three sets of colour photographs?

3 A. Yes, but they were so unfocused that none of them could be

4 clearly seen.

5 Q. Is that your signature at the bottom (redacted)

6 A. I don't see any signature.

7 Q. On the English side (redacted) I apologise.

8 A. Oh, yes.

9 Q. And isn't it true (redacted) that on that date, though, of the

10 pictures that you were shown you identified the picture of the gentleman

11 in that picture as Milan Lukic?

12 A. I can't recall, believe me.

13 (redacted) you have the statement in front of you. Would you like to

14 refresh your recollection?

15 A. I have the statement.

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted) just in the bottom paragraph, you are shown a

20 picture marked as X3, and according to the statement it indicates that

21 you identify the person on this picture to be the same Milan Lukic,

22 correct?

23 A. I don't know exactly, but I do recall that those pictures were

24 fuzzy.

25 Q. Do you recall signing a statement that identified the person in

Page 3272

1 those fuzzy pictures as Milan Lukic?

2 A. I recall that, but I was against my signing the statement because

3 of the pictures were not sharp.

4 Q. You were given the option to refuse to sign and identify,

5 correct? That is an option when you are shown a picture.

6 A. Nobody told me that at the time.

7 Q. And so regardless, you signed it and identified the person in

8 those pictures as Milan Lukic, and you identified one other person in

9 that picture as Dragan Savic, correct?

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 Q. And so you identified the person in that photograph as Dragan

13 Savic, as well, correct?

14 A. I don't know. I can't recall that.

15 MR. ALARID: We would tender the ICTY statement (redacted)

16 (redacted) into evidence at this time, Your Honour.

17 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, may all of these statements that

18 they've tendered be under seal?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. But let me just put it to the witness.

20 Witness, in the statement, you say identify the person dressed in the red

21 top and dark trouser appearing in all the pictures on this page as Milan

22 Lukic from Rujiste, Visegrad, and about whom I've made a statement to a

23 Tribunal officer on an earlier occasion.

24 And then you go on to say, I also think that the person appearing

25 on the right bottom picture marked 11A or X1A is Dragan Savic.

Page 3273

1 Do you remember now doing that?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I can't recall.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the last statement is Exhibit 1D80.

5 MR. ALARID:

6 (redacted) do you recall giving a statement (redacted)

7 (redacted) to the ICTY regarding a photo spread of Mitar Vasiljevic?

8 A. As far as I recall when he was arrested, I gave a statement.

9 Q. And specifically (redacted) you indicated that you saw pictures and

10 news footage of my client after he was arrested, correct?

11 MS. SARTORIO: Is that in the statement you're referring to?

12 MR. ALARID: I believe it's in the proofing notes.

13 MS. SARTORIO: Well, could you --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We all know Mitar Vasiljevic,

15 everybody in Visegrad. He used to be our waiter. (redacted)

16 (redacted) If I said it was him,

17 then believe me, it was him. That was correct.

18 (redacted)

19 Q. After the arrest of my client, did you see news footage of his

20 arrest and the case where you are at home?

21 A. Which client?

22 Q. My client Milan Lukic.

23 A. No.

24 Q. So you are saying you saw no footage after the fact?

25 A. Well, I do not have time to watch television, only if I read

Page 3274

1 something in the papers. That's my source.

2 Q. Do you have a computer, (redacted) Do you use the internet?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you recall giving a statement to the Association of Women and

5 Victims of War, Ms. Bakira Hasecic was present?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, (redacted), this statement -- and I'd like 1D10-3029 be put on

8 the screen, please. Do you recall this statement being given (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 A. I remember that.

11 Q. Now, it's my understanding, ma'am, that this statement giving the

12 (redacted) was in relation to an incident that happened the

13 (redacted) is that correct?

14 A. Yes, but I encountered that car on the Saturday afternoon, and

15 that incident was on Monday.

16 Q. (redacted) why don't I just ask --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: On Sunday.

18 MR. ALARID:

19 (redacted) just in terms of -- let's not start in the middle.

20 Let's tell the story. How did you get involved in this situation where

21 you were asked to become a witness?

22 A. Because -- you mean from the very beginning, why I'm a witness

23 here? First, it's my civic duty.

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3275

11 Pages 3275-3276 redacted. Private session.