Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3292

 1                           Tuesday, 4 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.33 a.m.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Today, we'll sit until 10:00 is the first

 7     sitting in.  In that time we'll have the cross-examination of VG- --

 8     Mr. Cepic Mr. Cross-examine.

 9             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  [Microphone not activated]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the presiding judge, please.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON: ... Alarid's cross-examination of the next

13     witness, so we'll begin now with Mr. Cepic's cross-examination.

14             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15                           WITNESS: WITNESS VG-24 [Resumed]

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic: [Continued]

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21   (redacted)

22             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour, that should be in closed

23     section or redacted now.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Closed session and a redaction.

25             MR. CEPIC:  Actually haven't got my full question in the

Page 3293

 1     transcript, so.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in private session.

 3           [Private Session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber] 

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Page 3294











11  Pages 3294-3303 redacted. Private session.















Page 3304

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 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, I understand the witness requires

 8     a break for a medical reasons, so we'll adjourn shortly.  Would

 9     10 minutes be enough, Witness?  Or do you need -- 10 minutes?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I will see.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The usher will let us know.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I might just advise the Chamber that

13     the doctor and the nurse are on stand by should she need assistance, so

14     maybe if they can be requested.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  She is to have whatever medical assistance is

16     necessary.

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Page 3305











11  Pages 3305-3308 redacted. Private session.















Page 3309

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23                           [Open session]

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, how long a break do you think this

25     witness will need?

Page 3310

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm not sure that I'm in a position to

 2     really know.  I know VWS were making arrangements to speak with her and

 3     speak about all of those things.  I think VWS might have the most recent

 4     information.  I will say this, Your Honour, my experience from last time,

 5     She was actually quite strong the first few days and it seemed about the

 6     third day that she started to show some signs of fatigue.  My hope is

 7     that she is strong today and can work vigorously throughout the day, but

 8     VWS will have the most up to date information.

 9             MR. ALARID:  Your Honours, since there was a witness that was

10     going to be at the end of week, that the appeals Chamber said could be at

11     the end of the week, it seems we do have time in the schedule if the

12     witness needs to take breaks and we need to move this into tomorrow a

13     little bit.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, I remind you that you remain subject to

16     the -- I was saying that you remain subject to the declaration that you

17     had made previously.  The declaration to speak the truth, the whole truth

18     and nothing but the truth.  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.

20                           WITNESS:  ZEHRA TURJACANIN [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:  [Continued]

23        Q.   Good morning, Ms. Turjacanin.  Do you recall what we were

24     speaking about when you last left here?

25        A.   Yes, I remember a few things.

Page 3311

 1        Q.   Well, I believe what we were talking about right as we left was

 2     the murder that you witnessed of Hasan Brko, do you recall talking about

 3     that?

 4        A.   Yes, I do remember.

 5        Q.   And we were trying to go through the photograph and see if you

 6     could recall where you saw this.  Do you recall that?

 7        A.   I remember you showing me a picture of Visegrad.

 8        Q.   And so we could clarify it, 1D20-0022 could be brought on the

 9     screen, please.  And while we are waiting for that to come up, ma'am, I

10     need to ask you this, what happened?  Why did you leave that day?  We

11     were trying to get this finished.

12        A.   I left because of medical reasons.

13        Q.   Well, ma'am, and we can go into private session, if need be, but

14     I had aide like to question you as to what those issues were that we

15     couldn't complete this yesterday, because it's been some break, and I

16     need to ask some questions about the break.  Could we go into private

17     session, Your Honour?

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, private session.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in private session.

20                           [Private session]

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Page 3312











11  Pages 3312-3316 redacted. Private session.















Page 3317

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12                           [Open session]

13             MR. ALARID:

14        Q.   So again, ma'am, how long after the incidents that burned you

15     until you were able to get some real formal professional medical care, in

16     a hospital environment?

17        A.   As I said, I received real treatment in Zenica.

18        Q.   And Zenica, do they have a hospital there?

19        A.   There is a large hospital there.

20        Q.   And what were your dates of treatment at the hospital in Zenica?

21        A.   Well, the major medical treatment that I received were to my face

22     and hands.

23        Q.   No, understood, ma'am.  I apologise.  I'm talking about what were

24     the dates, like, were you in the hospital for a period of days, weeks?

25     Did you go back for follow-up visits, that kind of thing.  Scheduling.

Page 3318

 1     And I also want the dates of time periods so we can look at medical

 2     records.

 3        A.   I can't recall the dates when I was admitted to the Zenica

 4     hospital.

 5        Q.   Could you narrow it down to a month and a year?

 6        A.   And I stayed there for 20-odd days.  And then I departed for

 7     Europe.

 8        Q.   So then let's get that chronology down.  You were burned on

 9     around June, end of June 1992; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And how many months before you were able to spend those 20 days

12     in the Zenica hospital?

13        A.   I did not understand this question.

14        Q.   Well, I mean, how long, I mean, when did you get your treatment?

15     When did you spend those 20 days and again, I'm not asking for the exact

16     day of the week and date of the month, but it would be nice to know in

17     the general proximity of when you spent the time in the hospital?

18        A.   Approximately half of October.

19        Q.   And is that October 1992?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   And after that, was that when you left to Europe?  After your

22     release from the hospital, you left your country?

23        A.   After I left the Zenica hospital, I entered an ambulance at the

24     so-called European ambulance, and then I left Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25        Q.   And from there where did you go next?  Did you go immediately to

Page 3319

 1     France?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And did you receive any medical treatment in France in follow-up

 4     to your injuries?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   In what hospital?

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'd ask that that information be done

 8     in private session.

 9             MR. ALARID:  Of course.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in private session.

12                           [Private session]

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Page 3320











11  Pages 3320-3321 redacted. Private session.















Page 3322

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10                           [Open session]

11             MR. ALARID:

12        Q.   Now, ma'am, can you read this, please?

13        A.   Middle school Ivo Andric 10.08.44 in Visegrad.  Number 02-07-94,

14     Visegrad the 30th of the 9th, 2008.

15        Q.   Now, ma'am, this is a confirmation regarding your years of

16     attendance at the middle school centre, the Hamid Besirevic in Visegrad,

17     is that where you went to school, ma'am?

18        A.   Yes, I attended secondary school in Visegrad.  I can't recall it

19     bearing the name of Ivo Andric, I can't recall that.

20        Q.   If you look down in the confirmation in the body of it, it states

21     that with your date of birth 3/12/1962 that you finished three years of

22     schooling.

23        A.   Yes, let me read you that.  It is true that I attended and

24     graduated from the secondary school for textiles.  I cannot recall the

25     exact year 1981 or 1982.

Page 3323

 1        Q.   No, that would have been the school year that transcends the

 2     wintertime period, so it basically means you would have left in 1928, and

 3     you began attending in 1978, is that true?

 4        A.   No, I don't remember the dates.  Believe me, it's been 16 and a

 5     half years since, and I am unable to remember every single detail.  This

 6     was 16 and a half years ago.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, we are going to take the break now

 8     for 20 minutes.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.10 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 10.32 a.m.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

12             MR. ALARID:

13        Q.   Ma'am, as we left on break, I was showing you what has been

14     marked as 1D210380, a confirmation from the school regarding your years

15     of attendance.  Confirming that your date of birth is in 1962, wouldn't

16     it be true that 1978 to 1982 would be the regular years that you would

17     have attended the school?

18        A.   I cannot hear well.  I can't hear anything.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Try again, Mr. Alarid.

20             MR. ALARID:

21        Q.   Is that better, ma'am?

22        A.   Fine, thank you.

23        Q.   I have to ask you the question again, ma'am, confirming that your

24     date of birth is in 1962, wouldn't it be true that 1978 to 1982 would be

25     the regular years that you would have attended that school?

Page 3324

 1        A.   Roughly speaking, yes.

 2             MR. ALARID:  I would move to the add milling into evidence this.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would object as we know

 4     Dr. Fagel and the other documents proffered by the Defence are now under

 5     a cloud of suspicion.  I can't agree that this document is an authentic

 6     copy of the report of the school.  I would want an opportunity to subject

 7     this to some forensic examination.  The witness has given answers with

 8     respect to the underlying assertions here, and it is not necessary, I

 9     believe at this stage to admit it, but I certainly object to the

10     admission of it in light of what we -- the report of Dr. Fagel that we

11     now have before us.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just to the record is clear, I've seen

14     this document for the first time just before the break, I've never been

15     given a copy of it.

16             MR. ALARID:  And Your Honour, as a proffer, Jelena Vasic who is

17     in the courtroom just got back from we'll call it her Bosnian mission and

18     she was able to receive a letter proving the years of attendance of both

19     Milan Lukic and Ms. Turjacanin.  If ultimately we have to call a school

20     custodian, that's what we'll do.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The Chamber sees no reason not to admit the

22     document.  We'll admit it.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit number 1D82, Your Honours.

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, can I then ask that I have an

25     opportunity to see the original so that I can have a forensic examiner

Page 3325

 1     examine the document.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 3             MR. ALARID:

 4        Q.   Now, ma'am, isn't it true that your brother is born in 1968?

 5        A.   Yes, my brother was born in 1968.

 6        Q.   And if I can recall your earlier testimony or statements that

 7     your brother was in hiding while you were in Bikavac, he was walled up in

 8     a house; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And, ma'am, isn't it true that you gave a previous statement that

11     you attended the funeral of a lady named Sevala Kustura?

12        A.   I never said that.

13        Q.   The friend's name is Kustura Asad, his mother's name is

14     Sevala Esad.  It would be with an E, not an A.

15        A.   I don't remember talking about that at all.

16        Q.   You don't remember stating that this was a funeral in April while

17     the Uzice Corps were still in town?

18             MR. GROOME:  Could we please identify the statement that counsel

19     is referring to.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid, let us have the statement.

21             MR. ALARID:  But to be honest, Your Honour, my client recalled

22     this of me when we were meeting on the break, and I didn't have time to

23     go through the binder and find it, but he seemed to believe that he read

24     in her earlier statements that one of the times pre-war that she saw him,

25     and if she answers no and I find something different, well, I'll be happy

Page 3326

 1     with that.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, that's not a proper way to proceed

 3     if you are going to be relying on a statement, you should produce it.

 4             MR. ALARID:  Let me ask her the questions in terms of is it true.

 5     That's maybe easier.

 6             MR. GROOME:  I believe she has answered those already.

 7             MR. ALARID:

 8        Q.   Did you ever claim to have seen Milan Lukic with your brother at

 9     a funeral?

10        A.   I never said a thing about that.  Where did you get that?  This

11     information, that Milan Lukic and my brother were together at a ...

12        Q.   I merely meant attending the same funeral, ma'am.

13        A.   I really don't remember that.

14        Q.   Fair enough.  Now, could we put on the screen, this would be

15     1D10-2599.  And the B/C/S version, excuse me, is 1D102604.

16             Now, ma'am, this is the statement, if you will, it's not a signed

17     statement, because isn't it true that you've never signed a statement

18     affirming what happened that night in Bikavac 1992?

19        A.   Sir, can you ask me a direct question, what exactly do you want

20     me to say?  I don't understand all these questions you are asking me

21     because they are -- don't quite make sense to me, and I'm having trouble

22     understanding them.

23        Q.   Ma'am, isn't it true you've never signed a statement under oath

24     affirming your declarations about what happened in Visegrad and in

25     Bikavac in June 1992?

Page 3327

 1        A.   I no longer remember that.

 2        Q.   Could we please go to page 2 of the English version and very top

 3     of page 3 of the B/C/S version.  And the sentence I'd like you to start

 4     reading at, ma'am, is the, it starts with "I know that the Visegrad

 5     settlement of Kosovo Polje was burned like this and to the ground."  That

 6     is the first sentence, ma'am.  It's the middle of the page in the English

 7     version, Your Honour, second paragraph.

 8        A.   I don't remember that anymore.

 9        Q.   Well, ma'am, in this statement it appears that you believed that

10     there were three house burnings in your region before you experienced the

11     fire in Bikavac.  And that's what I'd like to go through with you,

12     please.  And basically it goes on to say: "I could not give the names of

13     the people who set these fires, but they were local Chetniks from

14     Visegrad.  The first fire they then began burning people alive in their

15     houses.  First in Koritnik village they burned 62 persons, among them who

16     I know was a three day old baby.  Once witness survived from that house,

17     a man whose last name I believe is Menzilovic, but I do not know other

18     details."

19             Do you recall believing that fire occurred or hearing that or

20     knowing of that?

21        A.   Frankly, I do not remember that.

22        Q.   Next, ma'am, it states that: "In Nova Mahala settlement

23     Pionirska Street, 65 persons were burned in a house.  I know there were

24     two or three survivors, a mother and her son survived and another woman

25     who is somewhere in Medjuselje.  Do you recall hearing or knowing or

Page 3328

 1     stating about that?

 2        A.   All I can tell you about that house in Nova Mahala being burned

 3     down or the one at Pionirska is this: People were burned alive.  We could

 4     see a house that was on fire, and we could hear human screams.  That's

 5     all I can tell you.

 6        Q.   And you could hear these screams from your home?

 7        A.   I didn't see people scream, I heard human screams.

 8        Q.   Could we bring back 1D20-0022.  And just to be prepared to come

 9     back and forth to this document and the picture, please.

10             Ma'am, when you are stating -- we went through this picture a

11     little bit before, I don't think we had any markings on it, but could you

12     see the smoke if you could hear the screams?

13        A.   No, no, no.

14        Q.   No.  Okay.  But do you know where Pionirska Street is, ma'am, on

15     the map?  Can you identify it?

16        A.   I have to explain something.  When this house was burning, we

17     could see the flames rising from the house as well as smoke.  We could

18     hear human screams.  When I look at this photograph I'd be hard put to

19     pinpoint Pionirska Street, Nova Mahala or indeed Bikavac for your

20     benefit.

21        Q.   So you can't mark on this photograph where you believe you saw

22     the flames and the smoke from your home in Bikavac?

23        A.   I can't.  The scale here is very small.  I can't be sure which

24     one is my house or indeed the house in Nova Mahala, but I can tell you

25     whose house at Nova Mahala this was.  This was Adem Omeragic's house.  It

Page 3329

 1     was in Nova Mahala.  There were people living there, this was at

 2     Pionirska Street, and that's where people were burned alive.

 3        Q.   Could we please go back to the 1D102599 in the B/C/S version,

 4     please.  Same pages, page 3 in the B/C/S, page 2 in the English.  Top of

 5     the page, B/C/S.

 6             Well, ma'am, that's what I was going to point out because

 7     according to this, it appears that you recounted three fires, and the

 8     last sentence I'll read you is:

 9             "Two days prior to what happened to me on the 25 June 1992,

10     Chetniks burned 67 persons in a house in Glinica settlement, and only one

11     woman survived she is somewhere in Zepa.  I know this happened in

12     Adem Omeragic's house."

13             Do you see that, ma'am?

14        A.   Look, I have just told you about Adem Omeragic's house being

15     burned down.

16        Q.   But according to this document, ma'am, it appears that your first

17     recounts of the situation, you were recounting three separate fires,

18     although I would agree they all appear to me, from what I know, to be the

19     same fire.  And I was wondering what information you had at the time.

20        A.   Well, I told you, didn't I, as much as I remember.  If there is

21     something that I can no longer remember, I can hardly be expected to say

22     anything about it, can I?

23        Q.   Well, then, just directly, ma'am, do you -- isn't it true though

24     that at your earliest recounting of these incidents you thought there

25     were three separate fires in the Visegrad area before yours involving

Page 3330

 1     major casualties, such as 60 and 65 and 67 people?

 2        A.   I can no longer talk about how many people were there exactly.  I

 3     do know that many crimes were committed in Visegrad.  Likewise, there are

 4     many crimes that I can no longer discuss today simply because it has been

 5     a very long time.  I'm sorry, if anything, that I'm no longer able to

 6     discuss these.

 7        Q.   That's fine, ma'am.

 8             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, we would tender 1D10-2599 into

 9     evidence.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 1D83.

12             MR. ALARID:

13        Q.   Now, ma'am, first could we bring 1D21-0401.  And actually, I

14     apologise, 1D210410.  And B/C/S is 1D21-0415.

15             Now, ma'am, it is true your brother's date of birth is 09

16     November 1968?

17        A.   I know that he was born in 1968 but I'm not certain about the 9th

18     of November.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, may I interrupt you.  Mr. Cepic, may

20     I ask how long you will be?  I've been reviewing the examination-in-chief

21     of the witness, and I haven't observed much in it that might be of

22     interest to you in relation to your client.

23             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, I -- it is quite difficult to say for me

24     at this moment, but maybe 20 minutes, but maybe one hour, depends of

25     answers because I would like to clarify some additional things.

Page 3331

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.

 2             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

 3             MR. ALARID:

 4        Q.   And, ma'am, were you aware of your brother giving statements to

 5     the ICTY back in 2001 and most recently as indicated on this statement

 6     the 20th of August 2008?

 7        A.   I don't know about that.

 8        Q.   Do you communicate with your brother?  Do you talk to him now?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   When is the last time you have spoken with your brother?

11        A.   I can no longer remember.

12        Q.   Well, ma'am, it's my understanding that the night of the tragedy

13     when you were burnt, after you escaped, you went to warn your neighbours

14     and also tell your neighbours to break out your brother from where he was

15     hiding, so that everyone could flee.  Is that true?

16        A.   That I can confirm.

17        Q.   And so as far as you know, ma'am, on the date of the fire which

18     you state is June 27th; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And while your brother was walled up, did you used to bring him

21     food every day?

22        A.   I'm sorry, I didn't get that.

23        Q.   When your brother was walled up and in hiding, did you used to

24     take care of him and bring him food every day?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3332

 1        Q.   Could we go to the bottom of that first page there, please.  Both

 2     sides.

 3             Ma'am I'd like you to look at the signature of your brother.  Do

 4     you recognise your brother's signature having given a statement to

 5     Mr. Philip Caine on August 20th, 2008?

 6        A.   I cannot confirm that this is indeed my brother's signature.

 7        Q.   Can we go to page 2, please, on both sheets.

 8             Ma'am, I'm reading to you paragraph 2 of his statement which

 9     says:

10             "I did not socialize with Milan outside of school.  I lived in

11     the town of Bikavac, and he lived in the town of Rujiste.  Maybe we had

12     coffee together once or twice during school holidays."

13             Do you see that, paragraph 2?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Ma'am, would you -- isn't it true that this disputes your

16     accounts of smoking often with your brother and Milan outside of the

17     school?

18        A.

19             MR. GROOME:  Objection Your Honour, that's not the witness's

20     testimony.  The effect of the witness's testimony was that she saw her

21     brother and Milan Lukic smoking during school breaks when she went back

22     to have a cigarette as well.  It wasn't outside of school hours, it was

23     during breaks between classes in school.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. Groome.  Please pay more

25     attention to the evidence, Mr. Alarid.

Page 3333

 1             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I take exception with this Prosecutor

 2     telling me what she said two months ago.  To be honest, I can't remember

 3     as well, but I believe that we had testimony involving them smoking after

 4     school or on breaks between school, and this simply flies in the face of

 5     that.  And other than that, I think the Prosecutor's comments considering

 6     that the translator is translating and that Mr. Groome noticed that with

 7     a different witness, I think that is tantamount to injecting some of his

 8     ideas to the witness.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, Mr. Alarid has ample time to get the

10     references of the transcript, I will now look for them, but I did -- was

11     not aware he was going to characterize the evidence in this way.  I

12     suggest that he cite the specific page and line number so that we can all

13     look along and agree or disagree with this characterization of the

14     evidence.  11.00.29.

15             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  At this moment I'm looking at my own

16     notes of that day, and I see precisely what Mr. Groome was saying, that

17     it was in school.  My own notes.  I may be wrong, but in my own notes

18     but --

19             MR. ALARID:  No, I agree with you Your Honour, I think it was in

20     school on the breaks or whatever when kids smoke, I am assuming, but ...

21        Q.   Ma'am, clearly your brother was not stating that he was having

22     cigarettes with Milan Lukic; correct?

23             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, again I must interrupt, with the

24     passage that was read from the statement said, I did not socialize with

25     Milan out of school.  This statement that was taken in August of 2001

Page 3334

 1     begins with "I have been asked to clarify certain matters in a statement

 2     that I made to the ICTY investigator on the 25th of January 2001."  In

 3     that statement, so this has to be looked at in conjunction with that

 4     statement, it is very clear that her brother is saying, I knew Milan

 5     Lukic very well.  We attended the same class for three years, and that is

 6     on the first page of that statement.  So it's a mischaracterization of

 7     what the evidence is about her brother and to put to her in this way is

 8     highly objectionable.

 9             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour, I'm observing the time crunch

10     that I'm under, so I would love to go through the first statement, the

11     second statement, and every paragraph because I agree.  And I think we

12     are arguing semantics about in school and during school.  That's, to me,

13     I just mix that up.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, constraints of time do not allow you

15     to mischaracterize the evidence.

16             MR. ALARID:  I don't believe I'm mischaracterising the evidence,

17     Your Honour.  I think it will come out in the end.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Proceed.

19             MR. ALARID:  Could we just introduce the witness statement at

20     2001 per the Prosecution's urging.  1D21-0401, B/C/S version, 1D21-0406.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I've no objection to these statements

22     being admitted as long as they are both admitted.  And I suggest that we

23     move to statements of this witness and not other witnesses.

24             MR. ALARID:  Well, let's move to paragraph 4, the one we've got

25     in front of us.

Page 3335

 1        Q.   I'd like you to read paragraph 4 of your brother's statement,

 2     last sentence of that short paragraph.

 3             I'm sorry, I didn't mean to switch the -- even though we were

 4     admitting the last one, I didn't mean to switch it to the next one.  The

 5     2001.  I'd prefer to stay on 2008, the most recent.  Can you see

 6     paragraph 4, ma'am?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   In this paragraph your brother says:  "There was never a time

 9     when Zehra and I were together and saw Milan Lukic."

10        A.   I confirm that as well.

11        Q.   Now we can move to 1D21-0401, and we would ask to move into

12     admission 1D21-0410.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we admit it.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will become Exhibit 1D84, Your Honours.

15             MR. ALARID:

16        Q.   Having read that paragraph, ma'am, isn't it true that your

17     brother states specifically:  "I know that Zehra did not know Milan Lukic

18     before the war"?

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, how can she know what her brother knew,

20     one, because it's his mind or his thought process, ans two, because she's

21     already testified.  She hasn't spoken to him in many, many years.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, that's a nonsensical question, Mr. Alarid.

23             MS. MARJANOVIC:

24        Q.   Ma'am, why don't you speak to your brother?

25        A.   That's none of your business.  I wanted to say this, why are you

Page 3336

 1     asking all these questions which do not concern me?  I've come here to

 2     this Tribunal to say what happened to me and what Milan Lukic did to me,

 3     to me.  To me and my family.

 4        Q.   Well, ma'am, isn't it true your brother came back and took you

 5     out of Visegrad; correct?

 6        A.   It's true that my brother came back and took me out of Visegrad

 7     after I had been burnt.

 8        Q.   And so he took care of you for quite some time, helping you

 9     escape that, didn't he?

10        A.   Wait a moment, sir, until I've explained something to you.  After

11     my brother came back to Visegrad to take me out to Okrugla which is 10

12     kilometres approximately away from Visegrad.  That took one night.  When

13     I came to the house at Okrugla there were many people there, women,

14     children, men.  My brother no longer took care of me, he had some other

15     tasks to attend to, and I was looked after by the women there.  I believe

16     now this matter is clear.

17        Q.   Did you tell your story to your brother?  Did you share with him

18     your trials and tribulations of the fire?

19        A.   I told my brother what I had gone through when we came to

20     Medjedja.  We did not have much time during my stay at Okrugla to talk

21     and discuss things.

22        Q.   Well, ma'am, the reason I say this is because I find it strange

23     that in neither statement there's not an account of your brother, one,

24     hearing your story and then saying what you told him about your burning.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, how can she possibly answer that

Page 3337

 1     question?

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Next question, Mr. Alarid.  Don't answer that

 3     question.  You can make that comment to us later on.

 4             MR. ALARID:

 5        Q.   Now, I'd like you to go to -- we'd like to go to on the last page

 6     of the English version, second to the last sentence, or excuse me,

 7     paragraph starting "we decided to leave Visegrad..."

 8        A.   I cannot tell you anything about this matter.  I know that my

 9     brother did not leave Visegrad.  He stayed at the new house he was walled

10     in under the bricks.

11        Q.   Well, ma'am, according -- that's what I wanted you to bring

12     together for us.  Is simply that, according to your earlier testimony,

13     you fed your brother every day, and so I would assume you would know he

14     is walled up in the new house; correct?

15        A.   Yes, I said that my brother was walled in, we did that, we walled

16     him in with the bricks, and he was there with my relative Hazim.  There

17     were two men in the house.  We brought them food, we fed them.

18        Q.   And yet, you follow that up with that after your tragedy and that

19     you were burned, you specifically told people to go dig him out of the

20     wall ...

21        A.   Correction, if I may.  His name is not Hazim, but Hasib.

22        Q.   And ma'am, then I ask you again, though, why do you follow up

23     with the fact that you fed him, and yet specifically after you were

24     burned you state that you told people to go dig your brother out of the

25     wall and free him because the Chetniks were attacking, and they burned

Page 3338

 1     you?

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm getting confused this is not her

 3     statement where she has said this about the 26th.

 4             MR. ALARID:  No, correct.

 5             MR. GROOME:  How could she possibly know?

 6             MR. ALARID:  Because she fed him that day.

 7             MR. GROOME:  The question is is whether her evidence on the

 8     record now is that she fed him that day.  If Mr. Alarid wants to call her

 9     brother as a witness to say that that's not the case, then he's free to

10     do that.  What can she say about a statement that he gave that she was

11     never a party to and never discussed with him?

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, the strategy that you are using,

13     that tactic is not helpful.

14             MR. ALARID:  Why not, Judge?

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Because you are perpetually putting to the

16     witness questions that relate to her brother's statement.

17             MR. ALARID:  I guess, call it weird, but if my sister came and

18     told me I was burned in a house and who did, they would be trying to kill

19     me, not to kill him.  And I would be telling anyone that was willing to

20     hear what was going on, and I find it really weird she says she told her

21     family to go dig him out on the 27th after she was burned, yet in his

22     statement, he says we decided to leave on the 26th.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid there's no jury here.

24             MR. ALARID:  Not about a jury, Your Honour, it's about the truth.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  There's no jury here.

Page 3339

 1             MR. ALARID:  It is not about the jury, Your Honour.  I expect you

 2     to look at --

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You refer to your national jurisdiction, there's

 4     no jury here.  There's no need to make a speech.

 5             MR. ALARID:  That is wasn't about my national jurisdiction.  That

 6     was about me personally.  That was about me personally.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the speakers kindly observe the pause

 8     between their speeches.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let us proceed with the cross-examination, and

10     you have another 15 minutes.

11             MR. ALARID:

12        Q.   Ma'am, when you were travelling through the forest, did your

13     brother did with you to Medjedja?

14        A.   Before I answer this question, I have to go back again to my

15     house to explain the matter of the house and the bricks, et cetera.  I

16     confirm that my brother was together with my relative walled in.  We

17     could open that from the outside but could not be opened from the inside

18     by my brother because he was walled in.  And this is why I asked my

19     neighbours while they were leaving Visegrad to let my brother and my

20     relative out of that space so that they could join them.  And now,

21     please, ask me your next question.

22        Q.   My next question is, did you feed him on the morning of the 27th?

23        A.   Maybe on the 27th, I don't know.  Of course he had to eat on the

24     morning of the 27th.  We were burnt on that evening at around 8.30 p.m.

25        Q.   And so, ma'am, if you were burnt on the evening of the 27th, you

Page 3340

 1     communicated with your brother sometime during the day from the morning

 2     to the afternoon of the 27th, isn't that true?

 3        A.   Of course we had contact, but it's not true that we had

 4     maintained that contact throughout the day.

 5        Q.   But you know he was walled up on the 27th until you had your

 6     family release him; correct?

 7        A.   I know that he was walled up there throughout that period before

 8     he was released from there on that evening.

 9        Q.   1D21-0381, please.

10             Ma'am, looking at this photograph, do you recognise this area

11     around Visegrad?  And it might be helpful to go to page 2 of this

12     document --

13        A.   Is it ridiculous for you to show me this picture knowing that the

14     whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina looks like this.

15        Q.   Just turn to the second page, please, and maybe the witness can

16     orientate herself.  Do you recognise this canyon and valley, river

17     valley?

18        A.   These are cliffs and in the Drina River valley.

19        Q.   And wouldn't it be true that for your journey to Medjedja you had

20     to traverse this terrain?

21        A.   We did not take this route.

22        Q.   Describe the route you took briefly, please, ma'am.  And I'd ask

23     these to be admitted into evidence.

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, do we the only evidence we have about

25     these is this looks like anywhere in Bosnia.

Page 3341

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The seconds one I think she has identified

 2     sufficiently.

 3             MR. GROOME:  What is the relevance of a canyon on the Drina to

 4     her testimony.  She says it's not any route that she took.

 5             MR. ALARID:  It will be part of my final argument.

 6             MR. GROOME:  I believe Defence counsel is required to give some

 7     showing of relevance before -- I don't believe that I'll use it in my

 8     final argument is a foundation for introduction of evidence.

 9             MR. ALARID:  I'll give a further proffer.  Simply put the witness

10     has testified that she took a five-day journey with the burns that, I

11     think, we've seen in other video and photographic evidence, and I'm

12     simply trying to establish that this is the terrain and the nature of the

13     terrain that she made that journey.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll admit the photograph which is on the

15     screen now.  Not the one which was there before.

16             MR. ALARID:  And, Your Honour, I think it was -- our crew had

17     attempted a slight panorama to the left, but I understand your point.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit number 1D85, Your Honours.

19             MR. ALARID:

20        Q.   Now, ma'am, isn't it true that you testified that immediately

21     after you were burned and you told people to flee the area, you went to

22     the Serbian authorities so they could "kill" you?

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   And they did not kill you, they put you in a home and they

25     brought a doctor; correct?

Page 3342

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   And when first you approached these Serbians, you did not tell

 3     them about the Bikavac fire, correct, you told them a different story?

 4        A.   I don't recall that anymore.

 5        Q.   Isn't it true that you told the doctor and the Serbians that you

 6     had had an accident, that you had had epilepsy and you had had an

 7     accident lighting a cigarette on a stove?

 8        A.   Sir, I confirmed that I do not suffer from epilepsy, nor do I

 9     suffer from any other ailment that would preclude my testimony at this

10     Tribunal.  I can submit all medical evidence to that effect.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Another five minutes, Mr. Alarid.  If you need

12     it.

13             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, before I get too far afield, the 2001

14     statement, I believe that was tendered into evidence, but we did not

15     receive a number.  1D21-0401, and the photograph 1D20-0022 was the

16     photograph of Bikavac.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We admitted those already.

18             MR. ALARID:  I believe so, I just didn't hear a number.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm asking whether -- if we haven't admitted

20     them, then we will admit them.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  The statement bearing number 1D21-0401 will

22     become Exhibit 1D86, and photograph number 1D20-0022 will become Exhibit

23     1D87.

24             MR. ALARID:

25        Q.   And could we have P66 please, brought on the screen.  Page 5 of

Page 3343

 1     10 in English?

 2             Ma'am, I'd like you to look in Bosnian just the first few

 3     sentences where it shows ZT for Zehra Turjacanin.  Just read that out,

 4     please.

 5        A.   I never stated what you just showed to me.

 6        Q.   Ma'am, this is in a recorded video that was transcribed and

 7     tendered into evidence by the Prosecution.

 8        A.   I would like to see that video for us to listen to it together so

 9     -- before I can confirm that I said -- that I know that I never in my

10     life claimed that I had epilepsy or do I have that illness right now.

11        Q.   Well, ma'am, is it true that you told Serbians and the doctor

12     that you would burn yourself with a gas cylinder attempting to light a

13     cigarette, and accident so to speak?

14        A.   I do not recall that.

15        Q.   You don't recall telling Serbians that you were accidently

16     burned?

17        A.   No, no, no.

18        Q.   But you didn't tell them that you were burned in the fire in

19     Bikavac; correct?  You didn't tell them who the perpetrators were;

20     correct?

21        A.   Believe me, I do not recall what exactly I tell them, but I do

22     know one thing, my eyes were closing up at the time from the burns that I

23     suffered at that house.

24        Q.   Ma'am --

25        A.   I was -- I had burns on my arms, and I physically was harmed

Page 3344

 1     knowing what had happened, and the only thing I wanted from those people

 2     was some humanitarian aid and assistance.  I wanted those Chetniks to

 3     kill me so that my suffering would be brought to an end that night.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  This has to be the last question, Mr. Alarid.

 5             MR. ALARID:  I respectfully ask for more time, Your Honour

 6     there's so much to go through.  We haven't even gotten to her walking

 7     into the house, going into the fire.  She -- I mean --

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, you have to manage your

 9     cross-examination better.  The Prosecutor had 2 hours and 10 minutes and

10     you have had 2 and a half hours.

11             MR. ALARID:  I would request, one, that the Court instruct the

12     witness to answer my question which was did she tell the soldiers

13     something other, such as she had had an accident.  She didn't directly

14     answer the question.  Then I would like to ask a short series of

15     questions if I'm being limited by the Court, although I would take

16     exception for the record.  I would like to ask her a series of questions

17     regarding the garage door photograph.  I can't remember the exact P, I'm

18     looking at my notes, maybe the Prosecution could help me, but there was a

19     single photograph of the garage door that was alleged to have been put in

20     the door.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, put to the witness the last

22     question.

23             MR. ALARID:

24        Q.   Ma'am, isn't it true you told Serbian soldiers and the Serbian

25     doctor that you had had an accident and burned yourself with a stove

Page 3345

 1     attempting to light a cigarette?

 2        A.   I'm telling you now and here that I do not recall saying that.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, I'd allow you to put to the witness

 4     the question relating to the photograph.

 5             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And only because I mixed up

 6     my notes from the earlier direct examination, I would like some

 7     assistance in terms of which -- oh, P38.  Found it.  P138.  Did I say it

 8     incorrectly?  I'm sorry.

 9        Q.   And in this photograph, you made a mark of the window you climbed

10     out of.  These doors appear to be double doors.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, again the record is -- and I'm looking

13     at transcript page 2320, line number 8 to 11.  My question was: "Could I

14     ask that we zoom in on the garage door.  Is this door similar to the door

15     that was blocking the doorway on the night of the fire?"  And the answer

16     was "Yes, that's exactly right.  The testimony was that it's similar,

17     it's not the exact door which it sounds like that is what is being put to

18     the witness now.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let us here the question that is being put.

20             MR. ALARID:

21        Q.   Well, I understand the Prosecution's question was similar, but I

22     felt from the tempo of the answer that it was more the same, so maybe the

23     witness can clarify that on cross-examination.

24             Ma'am, do you know whether -- from a similarity perspective, is

25     it your testimony that this door is in the photograph is the same build,

Page 3346

 1     type, and design as the door that was blocking the entrance to the

 2     Bikavac house?

 3        A.   It looks like the garage doors of Meho Aljic's house.

 4        Q.   So looking like the garage doors, other than the possibility that

 5     it is not the exact same ones, can we just agree that they would

 6     otherwise be the same?

 7        A.   Those doors were dark red.  They were made of metal, had openings

 8     towards the top of the door, approximately 60 centimetres in height.

 9        Q.   And so thinking of these doors being moved and blocking the

10     entrance to Mr. Aljic's house, were they taken off separately or

11     together?

12             MR. GROOME:  Moved from where?  What evidence is there -- I don't

13     believe the witness has given any evidence about where they were moved

14     from or knows anything about that.  These are doors on another house, not

15     -- the house that was in the fire has been destroyed.

16             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, the testimony was that garage doors

17     were taken off from somewhere and put in front of the entrance in which

18     Ms. Turjacanin entered that house.  So they were taken off somewhere,

19     they were moved.  She just states that is they look like Mr. Aljic's

20     garage door, let's assume they are from his old garage, I don't know, I

21     to be honest don't care.  I want to know where they were, how they were

22     put up, how long it took to put up, were they up, were the windows up,

23     were the windows down, were they on their side, were they taken off

24     separately?

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, are you able to answer the question?

Page 3347

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Sir, when I left the house in

 2     which I had been in a fire and my body burning, I turned around to see

 3     what had been keeping me from taking my small sister with me on my way

 4     out.  At that point I turned around, and I saw the garage door blocking

 5     the way out, and here I include the balcony door and windows as well.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's it, Mr. Alarid.  I'm not allowing any

 7     more cross-examination by you.  Your cross-examination is at an end.

 8     Mr. Cepic, 5 minutes, and then we'll take the break.

 9             MR. ALARID:  Exception, Your Honour.

10             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, madam.  Good day, madam.  I wish

13     I were able to ask you questions in French but unfortunately, Bonjour,

14     madam, is the only thing I'm able to say, and my wife very much

15     criticizes me for that.  Please allow me to introduce myself.  First, I'm

16     Djuro Cepic.  I am an attorney at law, I represent Sredoje Lukic.  Can

17     you hear me, madam?

18        A.   I hear you all right.  Please go ahead.

19        Q.   Thank you.  On behalf of my client Sredoje Lukic, on behalf of

20     all the members of our Defence team, I want to express to you my

21     condolences for the loss of your family members.  Under the cruel and

22     dreadful circumstances that prevailed, we have a lot of understanding for

23     all the suffering that you were made to go through, madam.

24             Have you heard me, madam?

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, she has, continue.

Page 3348

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I can hear you all right.  Just

 2     press on, please.

 3             MR. CEPIC:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] I would like to take you back to a time that was

 5     a much happier and much more carefree time.  Therefore I will ask you

 6     several questions about that.  You went to a secondary school for textile

 7     production; right?

 8        A.   Yes, I completed that secondary school.

 9        Q.   Thank you very much, madam.  It's been quite a long time, over 20

10     years.  Over 25, as a matter of fact.  Do you perhaps remember your

11     schoolmates or your classmates from that period?

12        A.   Yes, I do remember the girls who were my schoolmates.

13        Q.   Here, let me ask you about a couple.  Do you remember the girls

14     from Zupa such as Mira Lipovac?

15        A.   Yes, I do remember Mira Lipovac.

16        Q.   Do you perhaps remember Koviljka Bozic?

17        A.   Sorry?

18        Q.   Kolviljka Bozic?

19        A.   Perhaps.  Perhaps.  It would take me some time to think back and

20     try and remember the faces.

21        Q.   I believe you will have no trouble remembering the next one.

22     Nevenka Ivanovic, do you remember her from Zupa?

23        A.   Yes, I do remember her as well.

24        Q.   Do you perhaps remember that girl marrying a policeman from

25     Visegrad, spending a total of 15 days with that policeman before that

Page 3349

 1     policeman ended up marrying a different girl?  You did say something

 2     about that at a later stage?

 3        A.   No, sorry, I don't remember that.

 4        Q.   Let me try to jog your memory.  These days were much more care

 5     free and beautiful than the present ones, I believe you'll agree with me.

 6     Do you remember a neighbour of yours, police officer Izet Karaman and his

 7     wife Rabija who used to work as a shopkeeper?

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Cepic please be

 9     asked to move closer to the microphone while speaking or speak up.  Thank

10     you.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic, the interpreter is asking you to move

12     closer to the microphone or to speak up.

13             MR. CEPIC:  My apologies.  I apologise to interpreters, I will

14     try to do my best.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I remember Izet Karaman he is a

16     neighbour of mine, I remember his wife Rabija as well.

17             MR. CEPIC:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] She was a shopkeeper; right?

19        A.   Yes, that's what she was.

20        Q.   What about if you think back to the time when you socialized with

21     those people or visited them, did you go and visit Izet Karaman?  Did you

22     spend any time with him in terms of socializing?

23        A.   No, we didn't socialize.  I saw the man quite often, our paths

24     would cross, he was on his way to work, I was on my way back, and so on

25     and so forth, but I can't say that we socialized specifically.

Page 3350

 1        Q.   Let me ask you about someone who is the same age s you and who

 2     was a work mate of Izet Karaman.  Do you perhaps remember his colleague

 3     and friend Sredoje Lukic, a police officer who was the same age as you.

 4     He would often visit Izet and he married Nevenka Ivanovic, their marriage

 5     lasted a mere 15 days.

 6        A.   No, I simply don't remember that man visiting.  After all, I

 7     wasn't actually seeking to find out who my neighbours were receiving

 8     visits by and who not, so I had other things on my mind and other

 9     commitments that I was far more into, as it were.

10        Q.   Crystal clear, madam.  I fully understand.  But perhaps you could

11     try hard and think back, she was a schoolmate after all, Nevenka

12     Ivanovic, and her short-lived marriage.  Policeman Sredoje Lukic from

13     Rujiste who was married to Nevenka Ivanovic for a fortnight, maybe now

14     you are better able to remember, madam?

15        A.   Sir, I was Nevenka Lukic's schoolmate for a single year, and I

16     failed that year, as a matter of fact.  She pressed on with her education

17     and I had to go back to that same grade losing touch.  I don't know what

18     became of her later on.

19        Q.   Your brother in his statement as we recently saw pointed out that

20     he knew Sredoje Lukic and that he never set eyes on him throughout the

21     war.

22        A.   Sir, I can hardly be expected to tell you anything about what my

23     brother may or may not have said.  I didn't follow my brother around.  My

24     brother didn't follow me around.  He has no clue what I was doing when we

25     weren't together, nor indeed I know what he was doing while we weren't

Page 3351

 1     together.

 2        Q.   That's crystal clear, madam, I hear, you I hear you loud and

 3     clear.

 4             MR. CEPIC:  Is this the appropriate time for the break.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, how long will you be?

 6             MR. CEPIC:  Maybe half an hour, 40 minutes.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Are you going to re-exam?

 8             MR. GROOME:  I may have one question, Your Honour.  Nothing more

 9     than that.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll break for 20 minutes.

11                           --- Recess taken at 11.40 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.02 p.m.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cepic.

14             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I kindly ask court usher to

15     bring to the witness [indiscernible] sheet.  Thank you.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, are you tired?  All right.  Madam, I'll

17     forge ahead with my questions.  I'll try to ask you as few questions a

18     possible in order to get through this as quickly as possible.  I just

19     want to know whether you are tired.

20        A.   [No interpretation]

21        Q.   Madam, can you hear me?

22        A.   Yes, I can.

23        Q.   Are you tired?

24        A.   A little bit.

25        Q.   I'll try to reduce the number of questions for you.  I would like

Page 3352

 1     now to have 0306-5578.

 2             This is your statement, madam, on our screens.  The one you

 3     provided in 1992.  More specifically, 30th of July 1992, 1400 hours.  Can

 4     we please have page 2, but I don't want it to be shown for the benefit of

 5     the public.  Can we scroll down, please.

 6             I know that your health at the time was particularly poor, when I

 7     look at this statement, I see that two witnesses were there.  Number 1

 8     and number 2.  You can see their names there.

 9             MR. CEPIC:  Can question go into private session.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

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16   (redacted)

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18   (redacted)

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23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

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11  Pages 3353-3355 redacted. Private session.















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14   (redacted)

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

16                           12.35 p.m. to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 5th

17                           day of November 2008, at 8.50 a.m.