090115IT

Page 4120

1 A. First, it was the Army of Yugoslavia and then the Army of

2 Republika Srpska from April to May, and June it became VRS.

3 Q. And how long was it in existence? Let me put it another way.

4 Was it in existence throughout the course of the war, which ended in

5 1995?

6 A. You mean the Rogatica Brigade? Well, it existed throughout the

7 war. Until the end of the war it existed.

8 Q. Now, can you give me your sense, as someone who was involved in

9 the heart of Bosnia engaged in this conflict, what was your sense about

10 when the conflict began and when it ended?

11 A. The beginning of April, the conflict began, and it ended with the

12 Dayton Accords.

13 Q. So that is April 1992 as the beginning and the Dayton accords in

14 the fall of 1995 as the end, is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And during that entire time, were there armed confrontations

17 between members of the VRS such as yourself and members of the Bosnian

18 Federation Army?

19 A. Yes. Yes, there were.

20 Q. And how would you describe the geographic area that this

21 combat -- these combat activities took place in?

22 A. I don't understand the question.

23 Q. How would you -- is it fair to say that over the majority of

24 Bosnia there was active combat operations during this time period

25 including Visegrad, Rogatica, Srebrenica, all of these areas in Eastern

Page 4121

1 Bosnia.

2 A. Conflicts were very frequent towards Zepa, Gorazde, Visegrad,

3 Rogatica. Very often, not constantly day in and day out, but every

4 couple of days there were skirmishes, conflicts all over the place.

5 Q. Okay. I'd now like to ask you about how you came to know

6 Mr. Milan Lukic. Now, from your testimony yesterday, I took from it that

7 you met him somewhere around January 1992. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes, the beginning of January, 3rd or 4th of January.

9 Q. Prior to that, had you had any contact with Milan Lukic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And I believe you told us that you were introduced to Milan Lukic

12 through one of his relatives. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes, Bozo Ivanovic.

14 Q. And you shared a drink at a hotel bar that lasted approximately

15 45 minutes; correct?

16 A. Approximately so, yes.

17 Q. And after that time, you did not see him again until you met him

18 in Kopito on the 14th of June, 1992; is that correct?

19 A. No, I did not see him in the meantime.

20 Q. Now, after your encounter with him in June of 1992, how many

21 times have you met him after that?

22 A. For a time I did not see him because I had some problems with my

23 eye. I underwent surgery, so I did not see him for a long time, but in

24 1996 I saw him on several occasions. He had a cafe there, and we would

25 come for drinks and then talk, and after that I saw him on the eve of

Page 4122

1 St. Nicholas Day, 18th of December. I went there with a friend of mine

2 to have a drink, and after that I did not see him at all.

3 Q. And that was what year?

4 A. 1996. 18th of December, 1996. This was the last time I saw him.

5 The 19th December is St. Nicholas Day, and Miso Bojovic [phoen], my best

6 man, celebrates that feast.

7 Q. And between the time of 1996 and the time you saw him here

8 yesterday, had you been in contact with him, or did you see him?

9 A. No, no. No, I did not see him.

10 Q. Now, the record records you as saying he had a cafe there. Did

11 you mean that Milan Lukic had a cafe?

12 A. Milan Lukic had a cafe. It is a shopping mall at the --

13 Visegrad, and he had a cafe there.

14 Q. Could you please physically describe Milan Lukic as you remember

15 him from 1992 or even 1996? How tall would you say he was as you recall

16 him from the days before you saw him here?

17 A. I remember him well. He's slightly taller than I am. I'm 185,

18 186 centimetres. He was a lot thinner than today, and I used to be a lot

19 thinner than I am today. He wasn't skinny. He was elegantly built.

20 Q. Would you be able to approximate his weight?

21 A. Up to 90 kilos. Not more, I'm certain of that.

22 Q. Now, there seemed to be a little bit of difficulty in

23 translating --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, did you mean his weight at that time

25 or no?

Page 4123

1 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. At that time.

2 Q. The 90 kilos, was that your assessment of his weight back when

3 you knew him in the 1990s?

4 A. Yes. He's tall. He's close to 190 centimetres tall. I know

5 that he's a bit taller than I am. Then 85 to 90 kilos, which would mean

6 that he wasn't overweight.

7 Q. Now, yesterday, Mr. Ivetic actually pointed Milan Lukic out to

8 you. He told you where he was in the courtroom, and he actually turned

9 and pointed in the direction of Milan Lukic. Did you need him to do that

10 in order to recognise Milan Lukic here yesterday?

11 A. No, there was no need for that.

12 Q. Did you recognise Milan Lukic when you came into the courtroom?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. How long did it take you to recognise Milan Lukic?

15 A. One second.

16 Q. Now, some might say that it's implausible for you to be able to

17 recognise him to quickly after such a long period of time. Is there any

18 doubt in your mind that the Milan Lukic you saw in the courtroom is the

19 same person that you knew from the 1990s?

20 A. One million per cent. He's gained some weight, the same as I

21 have. I'm 1 million per cent that's Milan Lukic. I'm sure that that's

22 Milan Lukic.

23 Q. Now, yesterday you described remembering -- and you described in

24 rather precise detail the uniform he was wearing when you saw him on the

25 14th.

Page 4124

1 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that ERN 0644-6670, 0644-6670, it's just

2 a single document, could I ask that be called up for the witness to view.

3 Q. Now, sir, there's a TV screen to your right. I'm going to ask

4 that you be shown a photograph on that screen. Could I ask that we focus

5 on the bottom photograph, maybe even focus on Milan Lukic if that assists

6 the witness.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.

8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, this is one of the documents that I had

9 mentioned earlier. This is a document that was just disclosed to us this

10 morning at 10.00. I would object to this document without knowing the

11 provenance of the document, the date it was taken, whom it was taken by

12 or at least the time period it was taken in because, of course, it's

13 quite relevant material in terms of establishing this document and

14 whether it can be used for the purpose of the question. Now, granted

15 there hasn't been a question yet asserted, so I have reserved the right

16 to object to specific questions, but as far as the use of the document is

17 concerned, I do have an objection based upon those grounds. This was

18 never previously disclosed to us, even though now we have Mr. Groome

19 saying it shows Mr. Milan Lukic. I believe then it ought to have been

20 disclosed previously.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, two points. First, an explanation

23 as for the late disclosure, and secondly, the provenance of the document.

24 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. The document is from the court

25 file from the case -- the court file from Serbia of the case against

Page 4125

1 Milan Lukic and other people for the incident that occurred at Severin.

2 We asked for this court file. It a very, very large file. We've been

3 going through it as we get it translated, and we have made disclosures

4 from this file with respect to documents that we determined were Rule 68

5 or contained 66(A)(ii) material. On the 31st of January, we sent a

6 letter to Defence counsel letting him know that we had this very large

7 file and offering them the same opportunity to view the file as us, still

8 telling them that we realised it was our obligation to get it translated

9 and to ferret out any Rule 68 material but offering them the opportunity

10 to come and view that file.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: The 31st of January?

12 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: When?

14 MR. GROOME: Of 2008 is when we sent a letter to Defence counsel,

15 Your Honour.

16 MR. IVETIC: 2009, Your Honour.

17 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm misspeaking. 31st of

18 December, 2008.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: 31st of December, 2008?

20 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. Yes.

22 MR. GROOME:

23 Q. So sir, can I ask you to take a look at this photograph --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. I have to consider whether you

25 have given us sufficient explanation.

Page 4126

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, the Chamber considers that you can proceed.

3 MR. GROOME:

4 Q. Sir, this is a black and white photograph, but can I ask you as

5 best you're able, can you look at the uniform -- well, first of all, do

6 you recognise Milan Lukic in this photograph?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. Can I ask you to take the pen in front of you and circle his

9 face.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Now, again, this photograph is a black and white photograph, so

12 we don't have the benefit of the colour, but you described his uniform as

13 being a combat fatigue; I think you said camouflage yesterday. Is it

14 similar to the uniform that we see him dressed in in this picture?

15 A. I cannot tell you greater detail. He had a vest. It was a

16 chilly night, lined with something that looked like fur. It was a

17 variegated multi-coloured vest.

18 Q. The variegated, multi-coloured uniform, is that what is commonly

19 called a camouflage uniform?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And looking at his facial features there and his hair, is that

22 how you remember him from the period 1992?

23 A. When I saw him, his hair was slightly shorter than in this

24 picture, and he might have been a bit skinnier. Maybe this picture does

25 not do him credit, but I do believe that he was slimmer than in this

Page 4127

1 picture.

2 Q. Aside from those differences, it does appear to be the Milan

3 Lukic as you remember him in 1992?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would tender this photograph.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

7 MR. GROOME:

8 Q. I'm going to ask that you be shown another photograph. It's

9 0644-6664. Again, it's from the same court file. I'm sorry.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P216, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.

12 MR. IVETIC: And again, Your Honour, I must object and stress

13 that the e-mail disclosing this batch does not have these photographs,

14 and these photographs obviously do not need to be translated. So they

15 withheld these photographs which on first blush, they should have been

16 able to immediately recognise this is material they ought to have

17 disclosed to the Defence, so they've not disclosed it until this morning.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, did I understand you earlier to say

19 that this was sent on the 31st of December, 2008, to the Defence?

20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, what we disclosed on the 31st was

21 documents that after reviewing -- we're still in the process of reviewing

22 this file. It's an enormous file. It's an entire trial that took place

23 in Belgrade several years ago, and I point out, You Honour, that the file

24 -- Defence counsel had the same access to the file, and I would hope that

25 someone representing a client would seek out their earlier court cases.

Page 4128

1 We sought out the court case. We received it. We're in the process of

2 going through it, translating it, looking for Rule 68 material. On the

3 31st of December, we disclosed what we had already identified as Rule 68

4 material, and we said to -- in the letter -- and I'm paraphrasing because

5 I don't have the letter in front of me. We said we have this large

6 volume of material which we are reviewing present. You are invited to

7 come, look at this file. There may be material. We described what the

8 file was, and we offered them a copy of the file or an opportunity to

9 come and view it, and that was done on the 31st of December.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: So your answer to the objection is that you

11 disclosed the file on the 31st of December, it's a large file, and

12 included in that file is the photograph in question.

13 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: So your point is that Mr. Ivetic and the

15 Defence, if they had examined the file, would have seen the photograph.

16 MR. IVETIC: I don't have custody of the file. It's still with

17 the Prosecution, Your Honour. They sent that e-mail knowing that I'm

18 traveling because I'd sent an e-mail saying I'm traveling. And I gave

19 the opportunity to meet with the originals that I had in my possession

20 that they needed to review. So when I'm in the region traveling trying

21 to get witnesses to come here and they say, Oh, we have this huge amount

22 of documents that we have in our possession that we're not going to give

23 to you, is that a disclosure under the rules that is sufficient when they

24 have materials of this nature?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you're traveling, but you're not alone.

Page 4129

1 You have others working with you. It's not personal to you.

2 MR. IVETIC: I was the only person in The Hague, Your Honours.

3 That's the -- that's the way it is, especially with the way the cases are

4 funded. I don't know if Your Honour's familiar with that.

5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would just point out also, I didn't

6 have my rules handy. I didn't want to misspeak. What the provision that

7 deals with photographs is 66 (B):

8 "The Prosecutor shall on request permit the Defence to inspect

9 any books, document, photographs, and tangible objects in the

10 Prosecutor's custody or control."

11 We advised him on the 31st about the existence of this file. The

12 judgement on this case is down on their exhibit list as 65 ter number 63,

13 so either they've gotten this file independently or they've looked

14 through the copy that we've given them and have added it to their 65 ter

15 list but seems to be a clear indication that Milan Lukic Defence is aware

16 of this file just as we are aware of it.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, my inclination would be to say that

18 it has been disclosed to you, but are you able to tell me in what

19 specific way you have been prejudiced?

20 MR. IVETIC: At present, no, because they have not asked

21 questions about this particular exhibit or document. It's not an exhibit

22 yet, but this particular document, and I don't know about any others that

23 are in there, but again with the time period that we have ongoing in the

24 case, how we're supposed to review a voluminous file that's only in their

25 custody, I don't know how to do it. I applied to the Court for

Page 4130

1 instructions as to how we're supposed to proceed in such a manner, but it

2 just seems like we're constantly running up against this.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, you are not alone in the case.

4 There is Mr. Alarid. I haven't seen him, but I presume Mr. Alarid is

5 still lead counsel in the case. You have assistants. You have a case

6 manager.

7 MR. IVETIC: Under the trial strategy, we're only allowed one

8 paid assistant, Your Honour, and during the break, with the way the OLAD

9 works, we are not supposed to be working in The Hague. They actually do

10 not pay for DSA during the break session, and the trial strategy that

11 they have does not foresee work during the break according to the

12 communications that I've received. I had to -- I usually have to

13 specifically operate --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Tell me specifically.

15 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you saying that in re-examination, because

17 you have a right to re-examine, you would not be able to ask questions of

18 this witness?

19 MR. IVETIC: I haven't said that yet because I don't know what

20 the questions are yet. I might not be embarrassed by the questions. I

21 don't know. It's premature.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us proceed. If we get to that point, then

23 you can inform me.

24 MR. GROOME:

25 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to take a look at another photograph.

Page 4131

1 0644-6664. It is another photograph from the same file from the court in

2 Belgrade of Milan Lukic. Can you look at this uniform and tell us, is

3 this similar to the uniform that he was wearing at that time?

4 A. I can't tell the colour of this uniform. He didn't wear any

5 head-gear. He did not have any other insignia except for milicija or

6 police. This one was not for sure. It was multi-coloured but not this

7 one.

8 Q. Okay. And how about the weapon that he's holding there? Is that

9 the weapon -- do you recognise the weapon?

10 A. I think that this is an automatic rifle, short, not with a wooden

11 but a shorter version of an automatic rifle.

12 Q. Do you recall the weapon he had when you saw him in June of 1992?

13 A. Mostly at that time, automatic rifles had long wooden butts.

14 Some had machine guns 84. Some had semi-automatic rifles. There were

15 different types of weapons in circulation.

16 Q. Can I ask you to take the pen and circle the area where you

17 remember seeing this emblem that indicated he was with the police.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. And can you see any emblem on the uniform in that location now?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Now, you've circled a portion of his uniform on the left

22 shoulder. Is that the arm that the emblem was on?

23 A. I think it was on the left arm.

24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would tender this

25 exhibit.

Page 4132

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P217, Your Honours.

3 MR. GROOME:

4 Q. Now, sir, I was a bit confused with your testimony about the

5 different locations yesterday, so I'm going to ask that you be shown a

6 map, and I'm going to ask you to mark the map, and I'm going to ask that

7 the map, which is 65 ter number 176, it's going to be a map of the area

8 of Visegrad to Rogatica. Before you do mark it, before you do mark it, I

9 would ask you just to allow me to give you my instructions so that it's

10 clear what the marks mean, that it agrees with the record.

11 Now, it's probably impossible for you to see now. We'll enlarge

12 it as much as possible. I believe Rogatica is to the left and Visegrad

13 is to the right. Please let me know if you'd like us to enlarge it more

14 to make it easier for you to see.

15 A. It should be enlarged.

16 Q. Okay. They've enlarged the section. Of course when we enlarge

17 the map, there's less of it that we can see, so right now the left-hand

18 side of the map has been enlarged. Can you see the words "Rogatica" or

19 the word "Rogatica"?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. GROOME: And could I ask the court usher just to move it

22 slowly, just like that, until we see Visegrad on the right side of the

23 map.

24 Q. Okay. And now we can see the river Drina, and we can see the

25 word "Visegrad." Do you see that now, sir.

Page 4133

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, I'm going to ask that we zoom out again so we can see both

3 Rogatica and Visegrad. Now, sir, in your testimony you were talking

4 about this road that you said was the main road, and you described it as

5 being an important road. Can you see that road on this map?

6 A. Not now. I can't see it here. The main and only communication

7 was through Visegrad through Borike to Rogatica. Visegrad through Borike

8 to Rogatica. This is the road along the Drina River which was not

9 passable at the time through Medjedja. It was not passable for us, Serb

10 army. Visegrad, Borike, Rogatica. That was the road.

11 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask if the usher could enlarge the left half of

12 the map. Maybe we can do it in two parts to see if that assists the

13 witness. Do you see coming out of Rogatica there's a thick line, and it

14 goes all the way to Visegrad? Passes through Kopito, through Borike,

15 Sjemec.

16 A. Sjemec. The name that you pronounced was Sjemec.

17 Q. Can you see that road on the map in front of you?

18 A. I do see the line, but I'd like to see it enlarged. I just see a

19 line, nothing more than that. I can't see Borike on the map. I would

20 like to have it enlarged. The most important road here is the

21 Visegrad-Borike road through Sjemec. I'd like that section to be

22 enlarged if possible, please.

23 MR. GROOME: Can that be done?

24 Q. Would it assist you in seeing a hard copy of the map?

25 A. Let me take a look, yes. Why not?

Page 4134

1 MR. GROOME: Before this is shown to the witness, this is my

2 copy. It has two words, Kladanj and Rujiste, up in the right-hand

3 corner. I don't believe it's going to be considered leading any way, but

4 could I ask that Mr. Ivetic just look at the map before it is shown to

5 the witness to see if he has any objection.

6 MR. IVETIC: No objections, Your Honour.

7 MR. GROOME:

8 Q. Sir, we're going to give you a hard copy of the map that we were

9 trying to work with in electronic form. Can you get your bearings on

10 that map now?

11 A. Sure.

12 Q. Would it be easier for you to work and mark that map than the

13 electronic one?

14 A. I don't quite understand.

15 Q. I want to ask you to make some marks for us about the locations

16 you've described in your testimony. Would it be easier if I asked you to

17 do it on the hard copy rather than on the television screen?

18 A. It's really all the same, if we could only just zoom in on this

19 portion and then I could see the individual villages and places better,

20 but I can use both equally well. I can use the one or the other. It's

21 just a matter of zooming in on the specific portion. Perhaps if we could

22 just get this portion blown up, and then I'd still be perfectly able to

23 follow everything on the screen.

24 Q. I think it may actually make sense because I'm going to ask you

25 to make markings all over the map to work on the ELMO.

Page 4135

1 MR. GROOME: So if I could ask the usher to maybe turn on the

2 ELMO.

3 Q. And then I'm going to ask you to make some marks on that map.

4 And again, sir, if you'd wait until I give you an instruction about what

5 I'd like to you mark, I think it'll -- the end product will be more

6 understandable.

7 MR. GROOME: Now, could I ask that the witness be given a

8 fine-lined pen because the villages are small.

9 Q. Sir, while we're getting you a pen, could I ask you to study the

10 map and ask you, would you be able to indicate the road that you've

11 spoken about yesterday in your testimony?

12 A. Sure.

13 Q. I'm going to ask that you be given the blue pen, and could I ask

14 you to simply trace the road between Visegrad and Rogatica.

15 A. I can't see Borike in this map. Krsmanovici, Brankovici, I see

16 all of those, but I can't see what it says here, for example.

17 Q. Can you see Rogatica on that map?

18 A. Yes, but I'm telling you about the other road through Borike.

19 That's where I started out from. We went from Rogatica to Borike, and

20 after Borike there was the HQ, and then from Borike through Sjemec, we

21 went on to Kopito, Gornja Lijeske; Gornja Lijeske on to Visegrad.

22 Q. Are you able to tell us where the road was blocked? Again, I'd

23 ask you not to let the tip of the pen touch the map until you have an

24 instruction from me.

25 A. That's the road. This is Borike and this is the road through

Page 4136

1 Stavanj. This is Stavanj. I can't see Stavanj. Here it is. That's the

2 road. So -- just a minute, please. Around Brdo, that's it. All right.

3 These bends here, a series of bends, is where Kopito is. Gornja Lijeske,

4 Donja Lijeske, and then Kopito, and then there it is. If that's what it

5 says what I'm pointing at. Is this Sjemec there, what I'm pointing at?

6 I can't see it properly. It's reads something like that, but I don't

7 know. Yeah, there's the road, that's the road over there, and yes -- and

8 then over there, there is a series of bends here, and then the first

9 series of bends and then Gornja Rijeka, and that's where Vlatko Tripkovic

10 got killed at, Gornja Rijeka.

11 And over here, to somewhere around here, over here, around here.

12 Where I was ambushed, that's here, the last series of bends before

13 Kopito, that's where.

14 Q. Okay, sir, to do this in an orderly fashion, can I ask you to

15 draw the road as best you can. If you have to approximate it, then do

16 so, but draw the road as best you're able that you were referring to

17 yesterday in your testimony.

18 Are you able to do that?

19 A. Just a minute, please. Just a minute, please. Take it easy.

20 I'm getting to it. That's the cross-roads, so right here, this is

21 Borike, the cross-road after Rogatica and after Sjemenic [phoen], this

22 cross-road right here, that's it. There you go. Krsmanovic, Brankovic

23 -- just a minute. Please let me see. This way?

24 Q. Is the pen working? I don't see any mark.

25 A. It's weak. It's not working properly.

Page 4137

1 Borike -- all right. The cross-road after Rogatica, this one,

2 and this one to Sjemenic on to Visegrad, so this way, and then around

3 here. There you have it. I marked the one over here, so this is the

4 road that I marked.

5 Q. I think you were using that defective pen for the rest of the

6 journey. Can I ask you just to retrace that with that marker now, all

7 the way to Visegrad.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. I think we can see that now. Can I ask you just to draw a line

10 through "Kladanj" and "Rujiste" at the top of the map that's not markings

11 that you made, so if you just draw a line through those two words. See

12 at the very top right-hand corner of the map, it has two words,

13 hand-written, "Kladanj" and "Rujiste"?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. So can you just draw a line through them since they are

16 not your marks?

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. And can I ask you to write your name at the top of the map so

19 we'll know that it's you who made these marks on the map.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Now, can I ask you, with a simple "X," can you show us where

22 along that road you tell us it was blocked on the 14th of June.

23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I'd like to -- well, if he's referring

24 to the witness's testimony, he should give a transcript page, I think, as

25 to which particular reference he's referring to so we can have the full

Page 4138

1 context of the ...

2 MR. GROOME: Is it in dispute that he said the road was blocked?

3 I thought that was the entire nature of the alibi.

4 MR. IVETIC: But if you're citing to him what his testimony is,

5 which part of the -- of his testimony? Perhaps I didn't catch the whole

6 question. I thought you were asking about -- he'd drawn something.

7 MR. GROOME: Perhaps I have it wrong.

8 Q. Sir --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

10 MR. GROOME:

11 Q. Sir, was the road blocked on the 14th of June? Is that your

12 evidence?

13 A. The 14th of June? Yes, 14th of June it was blocked. The

14 blockade was lifted no sooner than the 15th. The 15th, the morning of

15 the 15th, an operation was launched to lift the blockade. I drew only

16 to --

17 Q. Can I ask you just to draw an X across the spot on the road where

18 you say he was blocked? I see you've drawn one line of the X. Can you

19 just simply draw the remainder of the X to show us where the road was

20 blocked. Again, there seems to be a problem with the pen.

21 A. I marked it. Right here.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated] ... the witness had

23 drawn previously a single line to which Mr. Groome referred. What was

24 that meant to be?

25 MR. GROOME:

Page 4139

1 Q. Do you understand what Judge Robinson is asking you, sir?

2 A. This first line that I drew right here, the first one is the

3 place where found the soldiers and the police who were together, and

4 that's where I conveyed to news to them, and the other place that I

5 indicated was the place where Vlatko Tripkovic was killed, the mark lower

6 down.

7 Q. Sir, it'll get terribly confusing if you make marks aside from my

8 instruction. What I'm interested in you marking is where the road was

9 blocked. Was that the same place where Tripkovic was killed? Without

10 making any mark, was the road blocked where Tripkovic was killed, or was

11 that a different location?

12 A. We couldn't even get to that location, but the location that I've

13 marked, the first one, that's where the operation took place, and that

14 man Djeric had been killed three days previously, and they wanted to

15 evacuate the dead. It was blocked there, and one could proceed no

16 further. One couldn't proceed any further than that. I explained about

17 the first place at Kopito, and then you couldn't get further down that

18 road.

19 Q. Okay. So as I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong,

20 the first line that you made, which is just a single line across the

21 road, is where the road was blocked. It was impossible for anyone to get

22 across that area. Is that your testimony?

23 A. I'm not talking about the blockade. It wasn't that it was

24 blocked. One just couldn't proceed in that direction because some people

25 had been killed there, and they were evacuating from those houses. The

Page 4140

1 soldiers were there to evacuate those people who were in those houses who

2 were dead, and they couldn't manage for one, two, three days before that,

3 and that's where the soldiers were, and that's where this portion between

4 these two portions was. It was quite inaccessible. You have bends in

5 the road there, thick woods, that sort of thing, and all the problems

6 that were occurring in that area between the line that I drew now. The

7 first line that I drew now and the second line that I drew now, that's

8 the area that was totally unsecured, and as soon as there is an incident,

9 one just can't get through. I mean, I'm not sure you understand because

10 there's a difference, you know, the distance between the two roads being

11 about 10 kilometers or thereabout.

12 Q. Okay. So correct me if I'm wrong. So it's really the space

13 between the two marks you made across the road, that was the portion if

14 of the road that it was impossible to go past. Is that what your

15 testimony is?

16 A. Whenever there's an incident, one can't get through. This is

17 entirely unsecured, from the Rogatica road from the Visegrad road, it was

18 never secured, that part of the road. It was only when we secured it

19 when it wasn't blocked then. And the Rogatica and the Visegrad Brigade,

20 and they all covered those ten kilometers, and then it was safe. But

21 other than that, whenever there's an incident, it's always blocked. One

22 can't get through before it's cleared.

23 Q. Sir, again with the blue pen, can I ask you to circle the entire

24 portion of the road that you say was insecure and people could not get

25 through. I have a blue pen if it assists.

Page 4141

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Okay. Now, I want you to make a few other marks. Rogatica we

3 can see clearly on the map. Visegrad we can see clearly on the map. Can

4 I ask you to put the letter "B" as to where Borike is located.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Can I ask you to put a "K" to indicate where Kopito is located.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Can I ask you to put an "S" where Sjemec - and can you please

9 excuse my pronunciation - is located.

10 A. This is the Sjemec field. That's what it's called. Sjemec is a

11 relative concept. It's actually a mountain. So this is the section that

12 you probably mean. That's that.

13 Q. You've made a circle on a section of the road. Can I ask you to

14 put an "S" inside that section so we know that that's the Sjemec part of

15 the road.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Now, is it possible to show Kovanj on the map? Am I correct in

18 saying that Kovanj is west of Rogatica, and it's not on this map?

19 A. Kovanj.

20 Q. Yes. Again, excuse my pronunciation.

21 A. Kovanj is off the map. One needs to go from Rogatica to Sokolac.

22 It's the first village one comes across down that road.

23 Q. And Sokolac is off that map, as well, correct?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Can you circle Sokolac for us on the map?

Page 4142

1 A. It's not here. It's off the map.

2 Q. How about Jabuka, J-a-b-u-k-a? Is that also off the map?

3 A. I can't see it. It's in the direction of Gorazde heading out

4 from Rogatica. But you take a different road across the mountain and not

5 along the river.

6 Q. And finally the last location I just want to confirm with you is

7 not on that map, and that's Zakomo, Z-a-k-o-m-o.

8 A. I can't see Zakomo either. It's not on the map.

9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I admit that map. Sorry,

10 I would tender that map.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P218, Your Honours.

13 MR. GROOME:

14 Q. Sir, now, I'm going to be showing you a few military reports, and

15 that's why I was asking you some of these different names. Am I correct

16 in saying that if someone were to say there was a problem on the

17 Rogatica-Borike segment of the road, they're referring to the portion of

18 the road between Rogatica and Borike. Is that not correct?

19 A. I don't understand. Can you repeat the question, please?

20 Q. When you were working as a soldier in this area, if there was a

21 problem between -- on the road between Rogatica and Borike, how would you

22 communicate that? What phrase would you use to communicate that that's

23 where the problem was?

24 A. I would tell them there's a problem somewhere. I'm not really

25 sure what you're driving at. Can you try to elaborate? I didn't

Page 4143

1 understand the nature of your question.

2 Q. I apologise. I'm being unclear. If we had a military report

3 that said there was combat on the Kopito-Visegrad segment of the road,

4 would the military report say, combat on the Kopito-Visegrad segment? Is

5 that how it would be identified?

6 A. If they said Kopito, then they would know where it was.

7 Donja Rijeka, Kopito, that's the road from Borike to Visegrad. That's

8 clear enough. One knows where Kopito is. Everybody knows that, clear

9 enough. They would say a problem at Kopito, and then everybody would be

10 perfectly up to date.

11 Q. What would they say if it was between -- if it was half-way

12 between Kopito and Visegrad? How would they identify that part of the

13 road?

14 A. Above Gornja Lijeske, above Gornja Lijeske. That would have been

15 the reference point. Between Visegrad and Kopito, about mid-way in

16 between, just further up from Gornja Lijeske would be the mid-point

17 between the two. I'm talking about Kopito on the one hand and Visegrad

18 on the other.

19 Q. What's the approximate distance between Kopito and Visegrad, the

20 town of Visegrad?

21 A. About 15 kilometers, 16 perhaps. I didn't exactly measure it,

22 but I think that should be in the ball park.

23 Q. And given the terrain and the hair-pin turns, how long should it

24 take someone to drive from Kopito to Visegrad if there was no blockage in

25 the road and no traffic, if you could just drive from Kopito to Visegrad?

Page 4144

1 How long would that take?

2 A. It's a slow journey, very slow. Just before the Kopito peak, you

3 have a series of bends, and then past Gornja Lijeske, again, another

4 series of bends. Between Gornja Lijeske and Kopito, 90 per cent of that

5 section is hair-pin bends, very sharp bends, difficult to drive. If you

6 drive there, you're in first gear up to second gear, perhaps. Third

7 gear, hardly use at all.

8 Q. Would it take more than a half an hour?

9 A. Yes, that much is certain. If you drive carefully and safely,

10 over half an hour.

11 Q. Would it take more than an hour?

12 A. It might. It might, if there are no problems, if the car is

13 solid and in good working order.

14 Q. Now --

15 MR. IVETIC: Just to correct the transcript. I believe -- and

16 the question at line -- the answer at line 16, I believe the witness had

17 said it could be done in half an hour, it could if there are no problems.

18 It says, "it might." I don't know how we want to deal with that. Do we

19 need to a request to have the audio listened to, Your Honour? It seems

20 like the --

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, perhaps I can clarify with just an

22 additional question.

23 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

24 MR. GROOME:

25 Q. Mr. Ivetic is not sure that the transcript has recorded you

Page 4145

1 accurately. Is it your evidence that the trip between Kopito and

2 Visegrad could be done in a half an hour, that it is possible to do it in

3 a half an hour?

4 MR. IVETIC: I'm sorry. In an hour. In an hour. He said at

5 line 16, it's when he's talking about an hour.

6 MR. GROOME:

7 Q. So is it your evidence -- sir, the easiest thing is if you can

8 just tell us, how many minutes would it take to get from Kopito to

9 Visegrad? Then it'll be clear. If you know its approximation.

10 A. What I said is this: If one drives fast, if one takes risks,

11 maybe half an hour, but if you drive safely, regularly, you couldn't do

12 it in under an hour, so let's try to calculate a mean, about 45 minutes.

13 So I'd put it somewhere between half an hour and one hour, depending on

14 who's doing the driving, depending on what sort of a vehicle is involved,

15 and so on and so forth.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you. That's very helpful. Now, I took from your

17 testimony yesterday that this particular road that you've now marked on

18 the map is a very important road logistically -- or was a very important

19 road logistically in 1992. Is that correct?

20 A. The only road that we from the Rogatica Brigade had on our way to

21 Serbia or to Visegrad, that was the only road that we could use. Another

22 thing that was important was that the Muslims also needed this road.

23 This was a corridor for them. It's not a surfaced road, but it's a road

24 they used through the woods from Zepa to Gorazde. It was at Kopito of

25 all places, between Gornja Lijeske and Kopito. That's where they made

Page 4146

1 their crossings. Everything that they carried across from Zepa to

2 Gorazde, they used that road, and we from Zepa to Rogatica also used the

3 same road in order to get stuff to Serbia.

4 Q. So am I correct in saying that it was a vital artery for military

5 supplies and food supplies for the Rogatica Brigade, and if you can

6 answer it simply yes or no, perhaps we can move a little bit quicker.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And am I right in saying that any blockage on this road would

9 have significance for military purposes?

10 A. Well, it's not -- it doesn't matter who was actually in control

11 of that section of the road, but that's what I'm telling you about. It's

12 a 10-kilometer stretch. It would have been difficult. Nobody had enough

13 man-power to keep it under control, to keep it covered all the time.

14 They would use 100- and 200-metre stretches just to cover it, and then

15 they would take cover whenever possible and then when they wanted the

16 army from the other sides to withdraw, because the Rogatica municipality

17 territory is quite large. You have the part towards Borike, the part

18 towards Zepa. And in order to secure that part of the road, you would

19 need all the of the soldiers, the whole brigade to got here and secure

20 the area, so you could never be entirely covered, you know, fully

21 covered. The whole area, it was -- what should I call it, a bit risky,

22 the whole thing.

23 MR. GROOME:

24 Q. I'm not asking you about what it took to safe-guard the road.

25 All I'm asking you is, if it's impossible to use that road for the Army

Page 4147

1 of Republika Srpska, that has military significance, does it not? It

2 affects military operations, it affects military resupply? Is that not

3 correct?

4 A. Of course. No supplies could possibly come through, food or

5 anything else.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, yesterday -- I want to go back now to

7 your military service. Yesterday you stated that you were stationed in

8 Borike. Is that where you were first stationed when you joined the unit?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And were you always under the command of a person by the name of

11 Rajko Kusic?

12 A. Rajko Kusic, he was the brigade commander. Yes, I was.

13 Q. And what was your title or rank under Rajko Kusic?

14 A. I got my rank towards the end of my service, war-time service. I

15 was the company commander, but that's how it was for a while. The Borike

16 company, specifically.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, Mr. Ivetic spent 45 minutes. You

18 have so far used 52, and I'll give you another 8 or 10 minutes.

19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask for some leniency just with all

20 the difficulties we had with the map, I think it was absolutely essential

21 for the Chamber to have the map, but I do have a number of very important

22 documents that I want to try and work with the witness. I'm not sure

23 that I can do it in 8 minutes.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much time?

25 MR. GROOME: I think, Your Honour, about half an hour.

Page 4148

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll see how we get along, yes.

2 MR. GROOME:

3 Q. Sir, as part of your duties as company commander, would you make

4 reports to Rajko Kusic?

5 A. No. We just had working meetings, briefings, and tasks were

6 handed out. In concrete terms, I was tasked with defending Borike from

7 the direction of Zepa. We had our lines there, and this was my task, to

8 defend this line and those trenches.

9 Q. My time is quite limited, so if possible I'd ask you to just

10 answer the questions as shortly or as briefly as you're able. I want to

11 show you a report. You described an incident on the 27th of June

12 yesterday. I want to ask that you be shown 0642-9694, and again, on the

13 screen in front of you there's going to be a report that we received from

14 the Republika Srpska when we asked for the records of your unit. It'll

15 take a few seconds to get it up, but what I want you to look at is, I

16 believe this report refers to the incident that you were telling us about

17 yesterday on the 27th, and I want you to read the report and confirm, is

18 this a report of the incident you testified to yesterday?

19 A. If in could be enlarged a bit for me, please.

20 Q. It's the first paragraph of that report that I think refers to --

21 are you able to read it now?

22 A. Yes, I can see that.

23 Q. Please review it, and when you've done that, let us know if

24 that's an accurate report of what happened on the 27th.

25 A. The van was not protected, and the Yugo car was not there. We

Page 4149

1 had two vehicles. One was Lada, a white Lada, and another was a police

2 Volkswagen Golf.

3 Q. Can I ask that you look at the bottom of the document where it's

4 signed by Kusic or for Kusic. Do you recognise the seal and your

5 superior's name?

6 A. If you could track back to the top of the page. There was

7 mention of a car hitting an anti-tank mine. Maybe there was another

8 problem. If you could enlarge that section for me to read the whole

9 paragraph. I managed to read only one or two rows. If I am allowed to

10 read the whole paragraph, please.

11 The top portion refers to that, yes. Can we scroll back to the

12 signature for me to take a look at it?

13 This signature is somebody else's. Could be Milovan Lelik in my

14 opinion. He was deputy commander. I do believe that this is his

15 signature.

16 Q. And would it be common for the deputy commander to sign for the

17 commander on reports, on daily reports of activities in the area of

18 responsibility?

19 A. If the commander was absent, I presume, yes, that he would.

20 Q. Okay. And do you recognise the first portion as being a

21 description of the event that you described yesterday, although it seems

22 that there's some differences with respect to the makes of the cars.

23 A. This is most probably a report of the Rogatica Brigades

24 descripting one killed soldier. On that occasion, one was severely

25 wounded, later died, and one was killed outright. The Lada vehicle

Page 4150

1 carried men of the Visegrad Brigade and most probably the Visegrad

2 Brigades prepared a report on their killing. In the Rogatica Brigade, we

3 have a report of one killed and several severely or lightly wounded. In

4 my vehicle, one was killed, and one was severely wounded, and that was a

5 car belonging to Rogatica Brigade. The Lada Niva car was -- belonged to

6 Visegrad Brigade. Goran Zecevic was killed and another soldier was

7 wounded. This is most probably referring to the Rogatica Brigade's

8 report. If we were to take a look at the Visegrad Brigade report of the

9 same date, then they most probably would have reported one killed and one

10 severely wounded in that car that belonged to them.

11 Q. Okay. But you do recognise the signature of the deputy commander

12 at the bottom of the report from the 27th of June?

13 A. I do believe that I can make out the word "for" in front of the

14 word "commander," so it's on behalf of the commander somebody else signed

15 this document. We could enlarge and take a look at it to corroborate.

16 When it says "for the commander," this means that somebody who is

17 authorised to do so did it on behalf of the commander, and it states

18 here "for the commander."

19 Q. Okay. And when you did -- when we did have it enlarged, and you

20 looked at the signature, you said that you recognised it as the deputy

21 commander, a person by the name of Lelik. Is that correct?

22 A. Lelik. It resembles his signature. I cannot guarantee you

23 100 per cent, but it is a similar signature to his, but I cannot

24 guarantee it 100 per cent.

25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, given that, I simply ask that it be

Page 4151

1 marked for identification at this stage.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P219 marked for identification, Your

4 Honours.

5 MR. GROOME:

6 Q. Sir, the next document that I'm going to ask you to look at is a

7 report issued by Commander Kusic on the 13th of June, 1992, and it is

8 0642-9681 to 9682.

9 While that's being called up, let me just identify it for the

10 record. It's a regular operations report for the Army of Serbian

11 republic of BH, SRK, Rogatica Brigade, reference number 1-98/92, Borike,

12 dated the 13th of June, 1992, and sent to the command of the SRK.

13 Now, directing your attention to page 2 in the B/C/S version, the

14 document again indicates it's from Commander Kusic. Do you recognise the

15 hand-writing of the person who signed for Kusic in this case?

16 A. I believe that it was signed on behalf of the commander. This is

17 not Rajko Kusic's signature.

18 Q. Would you recognise Kusic's hand-writing?

19 A. I think I would.

20 Q. Now, going to the first paragraph, it states -- I'll ask if that

21 can be shown to the witness.

22 "There were no major enemy activity this is our municipality,

23 That is to say, in our brigade's zone of responsibility, in the Kopito

24 Sector (Visegrad municipality), an enemy sabotage-terrorist group, which

25 Was probably 10 to 15 men strong, attacked houses in the village and

Page 4152

1 Torched a barn and a house. One member of our forces in Visegrad was

2 Killed."

3 And then directing your attention to ten lines from the bottom of

4 The page, the report states:

5 "A part of the company from Rogatica controls and secures the

6 Rogatica-Gorazde access. A part of the units from Borike controls and

7 Secures the Sjemec-Borike-Rogatica access, and that one squad is engaged

8 in laying mines in the Percin sector and the general sector of Sjemec.

9 Does the information in that report agree with your recollection

10 of what was happening in your zone of responsibility on the 13th of June,

11 1992?

12 A. Yes. We up until that time was securing the Sjemecko Polje area,

13 We received attacks. That our responsibility to provide security up to

14 Sjemec, that section, and there was a ramp by the road in the Sjemecko

15 Polje, in the direction of Visegrad. We were responsible, the Rogatica

16 Brigade, I mean, that area until Sjemec Polje.

17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I'd ask that this time

18 this document be marked for identification.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P220 marked for identification, Your

21 Honours.

22 MR. GROOME:

23 Q. Sir, there's just two more of these documents I want to show you.

24 I want to show you the report that was generated on the 14th by

25 Commander Kusic. That is ERN 0642-9683. Again, I'll identify it for the

Page 4153

1 record. It's a regular operations report from the Army of Republika

2 Srpska, Rogatica Brigade, reference number 1-101/92, Borike, dated the

3 14th of June, 1992, and sent to the Command of the Sarajevo-Romanija

4 Corps.

5 Now, directing your attention to page 2 in the B/C/S version, the

6 document indicates it is from Commander Kusic again, and again, I believe

7 we have a situation where it's signed for Kusic by one of his

8 subordinates, correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you recognise the stamp or the seal as the one that was in use

11 during this period?

12 A. This seal was used, yes.

13 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to the first paragraph, and

14 it states:

15 The enemy operated in several places by infiltrating sabotage and

16 terrorist groups. Enemy activities continue being more pronounced in the

17 area of Visegrad municipality in Kopito, Gornja Lijeske, Kocarin. Three

18 soldiers from Visegrad were killed in yesterday's attacks by enemy

19 sabotage groups. Enemy actions in the town of Rogatica are increasing.

20 Fire was opened at the column of members of the Serbian Army going from

21 Gorazde toward Sokolac."

22 When it refers to three soldiers from Visegrad, is that the

23 incident that you were testifying to yesterday when you talked about

24 Tripkovic being killed?

25 A. I think so. It does correspond to the location between Kopito

Page 4154

1 And Gornja Lijeske.

2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that this be marked for

3 Identification.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, and we have to take the break now. Before

5 We take the break, let me just deal with two matters.

6 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, Your Honour. This would be

7 Exhibit P221 marked for identification.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yesterday, I said I would give a ruling in

9 relation to MLD15. MLD15 is not to be recalled before Monday the 2nd of

10 February. And in relation to the expert witnesses, the Defence is to

11 disclose the full statements and/or reports of the six experts no later

12 than Monday, the 26th of January, and the Prosecution is to respond by

13 Friday the 13th of February. We are adjourned.

14 MR. IVETIC: One clarification, Your Honour, as to MLD15, I

15 Presume that that's going to be VWS recalling him as the Defence, he's

16 not supposed to have contact in that regard. Is that what I can report

17 to VWS?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. VWS will be informed. We're adjourned.

19 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.

22 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Sir, just one more document I want you to take a look at. It's

24 ERN 0642-9685, and again, this is a report of your Commander Kusic giving

25 A report of the events of the 15th of June, 1992.

Page 4155

1 While it being called up, the title of the report is regular

2 Report from the Army of Republika Srpska, SRK, Rogatica Brigade,

3 Reference number 01-102/92, Borike, dated 15 June 1992, and sent to the

4 Command of the SRK.

5 Again, if we could go to the bottom of the signature -- the

6 Signature line, and again, do you recognise the seal of your unit, and do

7 You recognise the hand-writing of the person who signed this report?

8 A. It is not that clearly visible, I mean, the seal, but I can see

9 That it was the Brigade seal, and it's also signed by the deputy

10 commander of the brigade.

11 Q. Okay. Now, I want to go to the first paragraph of this report

12 And just read one line from it. It says:

13 "There was no signature enemy activity in the brigade's zone of

14 Responsibility."

15 And then the rest of the report summarises different training

16 activities that are ongoing and gives an account of the military stores,

17 ammunitions that were in possession of the unit. Do you recall around

18 This period of time that there were training activities for the unit? I

19 Think the report mentions some trainers coming from the Republic of

20 Serbia to do training. Do you recall that?

21 A. I don't know what was going on at Rogatica, but at Borike, no.

22 Rogatica Brigade held 50 kilometers of territory in diameter, but at

23 Borike, at the time there were no instructors on the 15th, 16th of June,

24 et cetera.

25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I'd ask that this be

Page 4156

1 Marked for identification.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P222 marked for identification, Your

4 Honours.

5 MR. GROOME:

6 Q. Sir, can you just give us some idea, when reports are issued, how

7 Long after an event are they generated? It seems that some of these

8 Reports are referring to events that happened on the same day, some the

9 day before. How long did it usually take for reports to be generated?

10 A. I did not generate any, so I don't know. I did not prepare any

11 reports. We were an army -- an emerging army, army being built. Our

12 mobilization rate was 105, so all men, why 105 per cent? Because people

13 who would not otherwise be mobilised were rounded up, all the men, 60, 70

14 years of age, but all of them were the army.

15 Q. Sir, there's another witness that's due to testify after you.

16 I'd ask if you could just answer my questions, yes or no, or the briefest

17 explanation possible, Mr. Ivetic will have an opportunity to ask you some

18 additional questions after I do.

19 We now have three reports from your Commander Kusic, the 13th,

20 the 14th, and the 15th. None of those reports mentioned a blocked road,

21 do they?

22 A. Well, if somebody is killed and the road is impossible, that means

23 it is blocked. As I've mentioned, on the 27th of June the road was

24 blockaded by the felled tree trunks, but in those events, the road was

25 not blockaded. In this 10-kilometer stretch of road when somebody is

Page 4157

1 killed, it is presumed that the road is blocked. Nobody wants to travel

2 along it before it's mopped up and cleared. Depending on where the

3 military was at a certain point, if the military is to go to Sjemec, this

4 was done by the Gorazde Brigade, and up to Sjemec was held by the

5 Visegrad Brigade, and when there is a killing, then the road is shut down

6 and blocked.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.

8 MR. GROOME:

9 Q. Sir, there's no mention in any of the reports on the 13th, 14th,

10 or 15th that communications have been interrupted, is there?

11 A. Well, if you took the reports of the Visegrad Brigade, maybe they

12 would be mentioned. In Rogatica, there was no such things. The Rogatica

13 Brigade personnel did not have communication with Visegrad. There was no

14 way they could have communicated through radio because in Commander

15 Tripkovic's vehicle, the radio was destroyed, and we were tasked to

16 inform the people at Kopito to tell them what had happened through the

17 Rogatica Brigade, but those people belonged to the Visegrad Brigade who

18 were at Kopito, Territorial Defence, military, and police, they had no

19 communication with Visegrad, and so they phoned Rogatica Brigade and

20 instructed somebody from Rogatica Brigade to go over there, contact them,

21 and tell them what was to be done later on.

22 Q. Sir, yesterday you testified to when you arrived in Kopito seeing

23 a group of 40 to 50 men involved in the operation, and then you

24 testified, and I'm going to quote from your statement where you say it a

25 bit more succinctly. In paragraph 2 of your statement, you say:

Page 4158

1 "As earlier agreed, the campaign to secure Kopito-Visegrad road

2 started on June 15th, 1992, around 10 a.m. As the campaign was getting

3 underway towards Visegrad, I returned to Rogatica and informed the

4 command of Rogatica that I have fulfilled my missions."

5 Sir, in the reports that we have before us, the 13th, 14th, and

6 15th, there's no mention at all of the campaign that you've testified

7 about, is there?

8 A. I'm telling you that that was in the Visegrad Brigade. The one we

9 saw was the Rogatica Brigade report. Rogatica Brigade personnel did not

10 take part in that actio, and this is why it's not being reported.

11 Rogatica -- Rogatica Brigade's area of responsibility ended at Sjemec.

12 Beyond that was the zone of responsibility of Visegrad, and it wasn't in

13 our brigade's repose because we did not do anything from Sjemec to

14 Kopito. It was the other brigade.

15 Q. Tripkovic was killed in the zone of responsibility of the Visegrad

16 Brigade, correct?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. Yet we see that reported, correct?

19 A. But it was indicated that he was from Visegrad Brigade. Well, it

20 is alarming when a commander is killed. In the previous report, it was

21 mentioned that in the Visegrad Brigade's zone of responsibility three

22 members were killed.

23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that the witness's prior

24 statement be tendered -- or I tender it. It's Y018-2196.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

Page 4159

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P223, Your Honours.

2 MR. GROOME:

3 Q. Sir, I have just a few more questions for you. The Defence of

4 Milan Lukic asked for safe conduct for you to come and testify, and in

5 their submission on this, they state, and I quote:

6 "The witness has expressed serious concerns ..."

7 And that's why they requested safe conduct. The serious concerns

8 you had were related to activities that -- activities that your brigade

9 engaged in might cause you to be arrested. Is that not correct?

10 A. There was discontinued interpretation. I heard a segment in

11 English and not in my language. Could you repeat your question, please.

12 MR. IVETIC: [Previous translation continues] ... relevant to the

13 testimony that the witness has given, and so I would object to the

14 relevance.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I see that it could be relevant, Mr. Ivetic.

16 Please repeat the question.

17 MR. GROOME:

18 Q. Sir, I'll repeat the question now for you. The reason you asked

19 for safe conduct to come here is that you were afraid that you might be

20 arrested because of the activities of the unit that you were a member of.

21 Is that not correct?

22 A. No.

23 Q. In fact, two members of your unit, Radislav Lubinac [phoen], also

24 known as Pano, and Dragoje Pajunovic [phoen], also known as Spiro,

25 they've already been convicted by the State Court of Bosnia. Is that not

Page 4160

1 correct?

2 A. I don't know the other family name. I never heard of

3 Drago Pajunovic in Rogatica. As for the former person, that was Lubinac,

4 his family name. And what about Pano, I don't know anything of their

5 being convicted. They weren't in my battalion. I'm telling you, I was

6 at Borike and was in charge of that section between Zepa and Sjemec, in

7 that area towards Zepa.

8 Q. I want to show you one last report -- or this is actually an order

9 by your commander, Rajko Kusic.

10 MR. GROOME: And I ask that 0529-4778 be called up.

11 Q. My initial question to you is, when it comes up on the screen, is

12 Whether or not you recognise the hand-writing as that of your commander

13 It's a hand-written -- I'm sorry. Have I given you the wrong -- can I

14 just check the ...

15 A. This is not hand-written.

16 Q. Yes, you're correct. That's not the -- I'm sorry. It's

17 0107-1284. My apologies on the wrong number. This was an order that was

18 recovered from the Kosara military barracks, in Banja Luka in June of

19 2006. Do you recognise the hand-writing of your superior, Rajko Kusic?

20 A. I think that this is not his signature. I'm not 100 per cent

21 Sure, but I think it is not his.

22 Q. Well, let me read the order to you and ask you whether you have

23 heard of this order.

24 "No one has the right to stop military action.

25 "There are to be no negotiations or ultimatums.

Page 4161

1 "Any citizen who surrenders and brings weapons shall be

2 Protected. Those who do not surrender and are disloyal will be

3 persecuted and killed.

4 "The bringing of Muslims into Serbian villages or to our military

5 positions for negotiations are hereby forbidden.

6 "Make it known that anyone who does not return their weapons and

7 does not surrender will be killed."

8 Sir, I put it to you that you asked for safe passage here because

9 you are one of the men who carried out this order of your superior, Rajko

10 Kusic.

11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I object. This was already said --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Yes.

13 MR. IVETIC: The witness obviously doesn't recognise the

14 hand-writing. There is no signature. There is no seal. They were

15 supposed to take the Prosecutor at his word that this is a document, an

16 official document. Who knows who wrote this. Is this what this trial is

17 stooping to, that we're turning in hand-written sheets of paper with no

18 seal, no title, no official letterhead, no nothing?

19 MR. GROOME: I haven't sought to tender it, Your Honour.

20 MR. IVETIC: But the question is based upon it.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: But the question that Mr. Ivetic is raising is

22 whether the document is of a kind and a provenance that would warrant a

23 question being asked.

24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, as I said in my question to the

25 witness, it was recovered from the military barracks of the VRS. I will

Page 4162

1 be producing the documentation regarding its provenance. The witness --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: It seems to me that the question could be put

3 even without the document. You could formulate the question without the

4 aid of the document and ask the witness if he knows of any such order and

5 whether it might have related to him.

6 MR. GROOME: I'll do that, Your Honour. Can I ask that it be

7 marked for identification?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P 224 marked for identification, Your

10 Honours.

11 MR. GROOME:

12 Q. Sir, what I'm putting to you is that the reason that you

13 requested safe passage here is because you were involved in activity

14 which you believe makes you vulnerable to prosecution for war crimes.

15 That's what I'm putting to you. Now I ask for your response to that. Is

16 that why you sought safe passage?

17 A. No. I've never seen this document, nor did I ever hear this

18 order. I never heard this order, nor did anyone ever give me an order

19 like this. It wasn't because of that. I told you clearly at first why

20 this was, and then later I said that I sought no form of protection

21 whatsoever or anything like that. I have no reason to get upset over

22 anything at all. If I had a reason to worry, I wouldn't be here to begin

23 with.

24 Q. Sir, are you saying that you never requested safe passage to come

25 and testify here? Is that your evidence?

Page 4163

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think we can take it any further, and

2 you should be bringing your cross-examination to a close now. You have

3 used almost twice the time allotted or used by Mr. Ivetic.

4 MR. GROOME: Just a couple more questions, Your Honour.

5 Q. Sir, this past June, the 2nd of June, 2008, you were convicted of

6 the crime of slander in the court of Obrenovac. Is that not correct?

7 A. This hasn't taken effect yet. This was a minor thing started by

8 a minor person, but the trial was never brought to an end. I was never

9 made criminally responsible for anything in my life. This is a private

10 suit brought against me by the association of Obrenovac's artisans.

11 There was never really a final judgement on that or anything like that,

12 and I have not been convicted.

13 Q. Let me show you the judgement of the trial court.

14 MR. GROOME: Could I call up 0644-5202. This is the judgement

15 entered on the 2nd of June, 2008.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.

17 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, and again, this is a situation

18 where, again, the judgement is not final. They're presenting a document

19 that is still in the pending process, so just so that's on the record and

20 that's understood.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, have a seat, and you can make your

22 submissions on it. Let us see the document, please.

23 MR. GROOME:

24 Q. Sir, while it's being called up, I'm going to read you a portion

25 of the document, and then we can -- you can see it in its original form.

Page 4164

1 It says:

2 "On the 2nd of June, 2008, adopted and made public the following

3 judgement: The accused Goran Djeric - for personal information, see file

4 - is guilty because on the 27th of November, 2006, in Obrenovac, during

5 the opening of the information business centre in front of approximately

6 30 people, he uttered several false claims, thus tarnishing the honour

7 and reputation of the plaintiff who is the secretary of the Association

8 of Obrenovac Entrepreneurs Obrenovac entrepreneurs by saying that the

9 plaintiff 'is taking 5 percent form people he finds employment for,' that

10 'he was determining his own salary,' and that 'he had usurped the

11 association,' thereby committing the crime of slander under Article 171,

12 paragraph 1, of the Criminal Code."

13 MR. GROOME: There seems to be some difficulty calling up the

14 document?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'm advised it's not in e-court, but let

16 us hear the answer to the question and then any submissions that Mr.

17 Ivetic has, he may make.

18 MR. GROOME:

19 Q. Sir, do you deny that you were convicted of this crime for

20 uttering false statements?

21 A. I'm telling you that I never got this sentence. Once I do, I

22 will lodge a complaint with the district prosecutor. Perhaps I need to

23 clarify this. I said this as a member of the executive board of that

24 very association, that the secretary was making our working conditions

25 impossible. You should look at that, too, but now that you have this,

Page 4165

1 maybe you should have from the Obrenovac Prosecutor -- my apologies,

2 but --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I just want to find out from Mr. Ivetic, the

4 passage that was read by counsel, it said that he is guilty. Does that

5 in the law -- and I know you're familiar with it and you're an officer of

6 the court, so we will take your word, does that mean that he's guilty or

7 that he's still charged? Is the charge still pending?

8 MR. IVETIC: It's my understanding that this is -- I don't have

9 the original B/C/S in front of me, but it's my understanding that this is

10 a transcript. It's not a judgement as was represented by Mr. Groome. I

11 defer to Mr. Cepic who has much more practice in the region and in the

12 jurisdiction as to what the precise legal meaning it is, but I understand

13 it means it's still pending until it becomes a final binding judgement.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Cepic.

15 MR. CEPIC: If I may assist Your Honour, with your leave, it is

16 not in-power document. This is just a record. It must be judgement in

17 hard copy, which the accused and his Defence counsel received by post and

18 also OTP, and after the decision, after they receive decision, they have

19 eight days in this case, because this is the lowest level case, for

20 appeal, and it is not in power. It is not decision in power, definitely.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you're saying it's not a final decision of

22 the Court?

23 MR. CEPIC: No.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: No?

25 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.

Page 4166

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.

2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, prior to my examination, I gave the

3 court usher the original copy to help assist with the e-court. Could I

4 ask that the witness be shown -- oh, we have it up there now. So Mr. --

5 I guess I'm confused. I'm reading from the document, which says it's a

6 judgement, which says he's guilty of a particular crime, but that's not

7 the case.

8 MR. CEPIC: And if I may assist Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic. We'll hear you.

10 MR. CEPIC: I apologise for interrupting, but just if I may

11 assist related to documents in the judgements for my country. Most of

12 you are familiar that we need the stamp for almost each document in our

13 law system, so a judgement must have the stamps, special stamps that it

14 is in power.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: By in power, you mean that it is enforced?

16 MR. CEPIC: Enforced. Yes, exactly. Precisely. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: So even though it says -- where is this section,

18 Mr. Groome, that says he's guilty?

19 MR. GROOME: This is the fourth page --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Groome, please.

21 MR. GROOME: I believe this is the fourth page, one of the prior

22 pages, but here we can clearly see, Your Honour, "judgement," and in

23 bold, "is guilty."

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

25 MR. GROOME: It's from the court in Obrenovac, through it a

Page 4167

1 request for assistance of the government of Serbia. What is the legal

2 effect -- if I might ask Mr. Cepic, what is the legal effect of this

3 document if it's -- I appreciate that he may have the right to appeal

4 this judgement, but it seems that a trial court has entered a finding of

5 guilty.

6 MR. CEPIC: This is the base -- this record is the base for the

7 filing of the judgement in the hard copy. This is not a proper form.

8 This is just a record from the trial. After the trial is completed, the

9 judges is in charge to file the judgement in the record. After that

10 completion, he must file a hard copy of judgement, which will be

11 delivered to the parties. This is just the first step in procedure.

12 After -- this is the base for the filing in hard copy, this record of the

13 trial. After this record -- after he files the hard copy of the

14 judgement, he must deliver to the parties, and the parties, when they

15 receive that hard copy, they have opportunity to file appeal in eight

16 days. If they do not file appeal in that period of time, the judgement

17 will be enforced.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: So what you're saying, then, it's only a

19 procedural step --

20 MR. CEPIC: Exactly.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- that stands between what we see here and a

22 final guilty verdict.

23 MR. CEPIC: Exactly, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Judge David.

25 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Cepic, from the viewpoint of Article 171,

Page 4168

1 paragraph 1, of -- I imagine KZ is the Criminal Penal Code, is a code of

2 contravention?

3 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, we have continental law system, and it

4 is the criminal law procedure which allows to file the judgement just on

5 the record, and when they filed this judgement, they invite the party,

6 and they read the verdict in the courtroom, but the verdict is not in

7 power. After reading in the public announcement, they must deliver that

8 in hard copy to the parties with explanation of decision.

9 JUDGE DAVID: Yes, but what I am asking you is, from the legal

10 implications of the judgement in itself as it stands now presented here,

11 what will happen - first question - if the judgement is not sealed with

12 the stamps?

13 MR. CEPIC: It couldn't be in power.

14 JUDGE DAVID: But nevertheless, it's a legal decision of the

15 court? It's a legal decision of the court or not?

16 MR. CEPIC: It is a decision, but it is quite complicated

17 procedure, maybe, from some other points of view. It is just the first

18 step in procedure. I'll try to make it as simple as I could. When we

19 completed the trial procedure, the Trial Chamber rendered a decision, and

20 they already rendered a decision in the transcript. After they render a

21 decision, we must wait - according to law is just 8 or 15 days, but in

22 the practices, a couple months - for the hard copy of decision, and the

23 hard copy of decision could be just in power with those stamps.

24 JUDGE DAVID: Thank you very much. That is very clear, then,

25 that legally has all the power subjected to the procedure of stamping or

Page 4169

1 recording in getting the hard copies .

2 MR. CEPIC: Exactly, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE DAVID: Yes, thank you.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. I don't think we should spend any

5 more time on this. I thank you very much, Mr. Cepic.

6 Mr. Ivetic, in re-examination or at a later stage if you want to

7 clarify the matter, you may do so, but --

8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no further questions. If I

9 could just tender that document at this stage.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P 225, Your Honours.

12 MR. GROOME: Thank you, sir.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you wanted to say something because you

14 are going to be -- yes, go ahead.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies. I do have to say

16 this for my own sake. The Prosecutor uses this document now. The

17 Prosecution in Obrenovac filed charges against the Secretary of the

18 Association, and I was a witness there. When I get a copy of this

19 sentence, it's appealable by me with the district court. They will then

20 decide whether I'm guilty or not, and there won't be a verdict before

21 then. It might take a year or two. Based on evidence provided by

22 witnesses, something was - and you should find this easy to check - the

23 Prosecutor in Obrenovac is organising proceedings against Mr. Zaric

24 [phoen], and I'm a witness in that case. That should be easy enough to

25 check, and it should be easy enough for you to check that at no point