Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4177

 1                           Monday, 19 January 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  May I say at the outset that in the absence of

 6     Judge Van Den Wyngaert, Judge David and I sit pursuant to the provisions

 7     of Rule 15 bis, and may I also apologise for the late start.  I'm afraid

 8     that the other functions that I have got in the way, and I apologise for

 9     that.

10             Are we able to start now, or do you have a point to make,

11     Mr. Groome?

12             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, just briefly.  On Thursday last

13     week, the Prosecution made a submission calling the Trial Chamber's

14     attention to Rule 67(A)(2) of the rules which obliges the Defence to

15     disclose any statements of Defence witnesses prior to the commencement of

16     the Defence case.  The Prosecution informed the Chamber that it has thus

17     far received only 12 statements of Defence witnesses.  At that time, the

18     Chamber invited the Prosecution to bring to the Chamber's attention

19     additional jurisprudence on the issue, particularly from the ad hoc

20     tribunals.

21             The Prosecution wishes to make a brief submission clarifying its

22     understanding of the jurisprudence with respect to how the term "witness

23     statement" has been defined by the relevant decisions and to renew its

24     request to the Defence to produce those documents properly considered

25     witness statements under the law.

Page 4178

 1             According to the jurisprudence, a witness statement is to be

 2     interpreted as "the account of a person's knowledge of a crime which is

 3     recorded through due procedure in the course of an investigation into the

 4     crime."  This definition was set out in the Blaskic case by the Appeals

 5     Chamber in its decision on the appellant's motions for the production of

 6     material, suspension, or extension of the briefing schedule and

 7     additional filings.  That decision was entered on the 26th of December,

 8     2000, and the cite that I mentioned is from paragraph 15.

 9             This jurisprudence was cited by this very Trial Chamber in its

10     3rd of November, 2008, decision on the Defence motion to bar testimony of

11     Zehra Turjacanin in paragraph 12.  In that decision, this Trial Chamber

12     stated - and this was with respect to a document that was entitled

13     "interview notes" - that the Chamber stated that due to the fact that the

14     notes "record Zehra Turjacanin's recollections regarding events in

15     Bikavac that relate to charges in the indictment..." and it goes on -

16     that's the only relevant portion, closed quote - they clearly fall within

17     the meaning of witness statement.  The fact that a particular witness

18     statement does not correspond to a particular standard or form does not

19     relieve a party from its obligation to disclose, and for that proposition

20     I would cite the Appeals Chamber in the -- in an ICTR case entitled the

21     Niyitegeka judgement, entered on the 9th of July, 2004, at paragraph 31.

22             Therefore, the Prosecution submits that according to the

23     jurisprudence of the ad hoc tribunals, ICTY and ICTR, and the law of this

24     case as articulated by this Trial Chamber, any statement or declaration

25     made by a witness in relation to an event he or she witnessed related to

Page 4179

 1     this case, regardless of the form it was recorded and regardless of who

 2     recorded it, falls within the meaning of a witness statement, whether

 3     that person who recorded it is an investigator, an attorney, or a

 4     translator.

 5             Last week, Mr. Cole also cited the Brima and the Norman cases

 6     from the special court for Sierra Leone.  We support this proposition.  I

 7     will not repeat those cites at this time.

 8             The jurisprudence recognises that work product or internal notes

 9     which fall under Rule 70(A) or not disclosable, but the fact that a

10     document contains such material does not relieve a party from disclosing

11     the material contained in the document which is properly disclosable.

12     Redactions can be made to those portions of the document which contain

13     material protected by Rule 70(A).  We have received no disclosure for the

14     next witness, and I would ask Mr. Alarid to provide me with any prior

15     statements of the witness as that term is defined by the jurisprudence or

16     confirm on the record that the Milan Lukic Defence team is not in

17     possession of such.

18             Thank you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  I don't think we need to hear any

20     further comments.  I was saying I don't think we need to hear any further

21     comments on that.  It's a statement of the Prosecution's idea as to what

22     the law is on this matter.

23             MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, I would only ask

24     if the Trial Chamber is going to consider that submission and make a

25     ruling on it, we would like to have the opportunity to respond in

Page 4180

 1     writing, and in which case we would ask for the citations that were cited

 2     by Mr. Cole the other day to be provided to us in some form that we can

 3     actually track down the cases, as we do not have access to the

 4     Prosecution's digest that was cited to -- by Mr. Cole in the last court

 5     session.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  I mean, if -- if the matter arises in a

 7     practical way, then of course I'll deal with it.  But the Rule itself is

 8     quite clear, Mr. Ivetic, that if you have the statements, then you must

 9     produce them.

10             MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honour, as I have said, I

11     believe this is now the third or fourth time I'm saying this, we have

12     provided the statements from witnesses that we have in our possession.

13     As far as I'm aware, we've disclosed them all.  I don't have a list

14     prepared because I did not anticipate that we were going to be going

15     forward with this topic, but we've given them everything, and then

16     pursuant to the rules we've given them a summary for the viva voce

17     witnesses of what that witness -- what topics that witness is supposed to

18     testify about, and that's -- we feel that we've complied with the rules,

19     Your Honour.  That's all I can say.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  The only way it would arise in a practical

21     way is if you have refrained from providing something which qualifies as

22     a witness statement according to the case law that Mr. Groome has just

23     outlined, and in which case, then, I would have to rule on that.

24             MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour, but then we'd

25     also have the right to give submissions as to what qualifies as a

Page 4181

 1     statement or not.  I can tell you as I've told you with respect to the

 2     witness that we had here last week, I met with this witness.  I met --

 3     with the first witness that's coming in, I met with her the first time

 4     approximately four -- four or five weeks ago when I went out into the

 5     terrain, and then I met with her this morning.  I've been trying to find

 6     out about the case, and in that process I ask questions.  That's what

 7     every attorney does.  I've been in this Tribunal for now almost ten

 8     years, and this procedure by the Prosecution from these special ad hoc

 9     tribunals is something that I've seen practiced nowhere in this Tribunal

10     in the way that is being offered by the Prosecution.  I mean, my

11     preparation to present -- are they entitled to have my questions that

12     I've prepared to ask this witness?  I mean, that's -- it seems to be

13     remarkable.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, we're not arguing that, no.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What I'm telling you is that if you have

17     something which might qualify if one were to accept Mr. Groome's

18     submissions, then if you are to discharge your duties as an officer of

19     the court properly, you must bring that to our attention, and the Chamber

20     will make a ruling on the matter.  Do you understand?

21             MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation] I understand that.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Good.

23             MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation] To my knowledge with respect to

24     these two witnesses, everything has been provided that would fall under

25     that category.

Page 4182

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  All right.  Let's move on.  Let's have the next

 2     witness.

 3             MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation] The next witness -- the first

 4     witness, Your Honour, is Mrs. Anka Vasiljevic testifying without

 5     protective measures and viva voce.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  [Microphone not activated] Is that right?

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation] I believe she's the fifth witness,

 9     Your Honour.  We have the one that did not complete the

10     cross-examination.  It's still open.  And including that individual, we

11     have had four witnesses who have testified here.  So this would be our

12     fifth -- fifth witness in sequence.  Sixth?

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll check on that later, but let the witness

14     make the declaration in the meantime.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may sit and you may begin.  The registrar

18     says she's the fifth witness.

19             MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for that correction, Your

20     Honour.               WITNESS:  ANKA VASILJEVIC

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

23        Q.   Good afternoon, madam.  I'll wait for the --

24        A.   Good afternoon.

25        Q.   I trust you can hear me now with your headphones on.  As you

Page 4183

 1     know, I'm one of the attorneys for Milan Lukic in this case, and this

 2     afternoon I would have some questions for you.  My name is Dan Ivetic,

 3     and I would ask that you start by first stating your full name for the

 4     record.

 5        A.   Anka Vasiljevic.

 6        Q.   And if you could tell us where it is, that is to say, what city

 7     and what country do you presently reside in?

 8        A.   In Visegrad in Republika Srpska.

 9        Q.   Okay.  I'm waiting for the transcript to catch up.  I apologise.

10     I have to wait for the translation and the transcript to catch up with us

11     even though I can understand what you're saying since I have one ear

12     available.  And where is it that you were born?

13        A.   In Valjevo, in Serbia.

14        Q.   And when was it that you actually moved to the Visegrad

15     municipality?  What were the circumstances around that?

16        A.   I got married in 1975, and when I graduated from university, as

17     my husband came from Visegrad, in 1989 we both got jobs in Visegrad.

18        Q.   Okay.  You've mentioned your husband.  Could you identify for us

19     what the name of your husband was?

20        A.   His name was Radomir Vasiljevic.

21        Q.   And am I correct, he is -- he is deceased?  He is no longer with

22     us?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And am I -- was he also known by any other shortened versions of

25     his -- of his name, first name?

Page 4184

 1        A.   They called him Rasa.

 2        Q.   Now -- now, if you could tell us a little bit about your late

 3     husband, Dr. Radomir Vasiljevic.  First of all, what kind of man was he

 4     if you would have to describe him to us?  What characteristics did he

 5     have or exhibit?

 6        A.   He was a great man, a great expert, a famous doctor, a good

 7     father, a good husband, a good friend.  I can say only all the best about

 8     him.  Nobody ever spoke ill of him.  It's rare that such a person is

 9     born.

10        Q.   And you indicated that he was a doctor.  With respect to his

11     education and training, was he a specific type of doctor?  If you could

12     explain that for us.

13        A.   He was special.  He was a specialist and epidemiologist, and he

14     was a specialist in sports medicine, and he sub-specialised in AIDS.

15        Q.   If you would just repeat the first speciality he had.  It appears

16     it did not make it into the transcript.

17        A.   Epidemiologist, specialist in epidemics.

18        Q.   And again, I'm just waiting for the transcript.  And with respect

19     to yourself, you indicated that you had finished some schooling before

20     moving to Visegrad municipality.  What schooling did you yourself

21     accomplish and complete?

22        A.   I finished school for commercial affairs, and I worked in a

23     company for several years until it went bankrupt, in a commercial

24     company.

25        Q.   And now if you could focus on the time-period of 1992, and when I

Page 4185

 1     say 1992, I include the time-period when there was a -- a war on the

 2     territory of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the former SFRY Republic

 3     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  During that time, did your late husband,

 4     Dr. Vasiljevic, was he employed as a doctor and, if so, where was he

 5     employed?  So please give us the pre-war period and the -- during the

 6     war, if you could.

 7        A.   Before the war, he worked in a work medicine health centre, and

 8     then until his death he was the director of the health care centre in

 9     Visegrad.

10        Q.   And with respect to that position as the director of the health

11     centre in Visegrad, did he have occasion during that specific

12     time-period, that is, before the war and during the war, to have a

13     practice involving the treatment of actual patients?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And do you, madam, have any knowledge of whether Dr. Vasiljevic's

16     practice of medicine before the war - now we're talking about just before

17     the war - included the treatment of patients from Visegrad of different

18     ethno-religious groups, and if so, what groups?

19        A.   We never paid attention to ethnicity.  It was irrelevant.  It was

20     unimportant.  We all got on well, socialised, and in his job especially,

21     no distinctions could be made.

22        Q.   And with respect to your -- your husband's work as a doctor and

23     as director of the health centre in Visegrad, were there -- before the

24     war, were there personnel working with him in the health centre of

25     differing ethnic or religious affiliations?

Page 4186

 1        A.   Yes.  We got on really well together.  We were even on visiting

 2     terms.

 3        Q.   Would you be able to -- sorry, again, I had to wait for the

 4     transcript.  Would you be able to identify any such individuals who were

 5     your household friends as you identified who were of a differing ethnic

 6     or religious affiliation?

 7        A.   Well, I can give you a lot of names.  Avdija Zahiragic; Alma and

 8     her husband, also a Muslim, I don't recall their last name; Dzevad Avdic;

 9     Hazim Ustamujic; Enver Jamak, and if need be, I can enumerate more.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I think that would -- that would suffice.  Did

11     yourself or your husband treat these people differently, that is to say,

12     did -- did you regard these people differently than your Serb friends, or

13     could you tell us anything about that?

14        A.   No.  We all socialised together.  We celebrated together.  We

15     Serbs have a holiday called slava.  They would come to visit us, and they

16     celebrated Bajram, so we visited then.  We had barbecues together.  We

17     went on trips together.  Our children went to school together.  That sort

18     of thing didn't happen in Visegrad.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And now, I'd like to turn to another topic, namely

20     Mr. Milan Lukic.  How long is it that you have known Mr. Milan Lukic?

21        A.   I've known him since 1992.

22        Q.   And what is the precise nature of your relationship with him?

23        A.   I know him very well.  We have the kum relationship.  Among us

24     Orthodox Serbs, there is this traditional relationship.  He was my son's

25     godfather at my son's christening, and when my son gets married he will

Page 4187

 1     be his best man.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And with respect to Mr. Milan Lukic, did you have

 3     occasion to see him in 1992 during the time-period of the war?

 4        A.   Of course.  He went to visit -- came to visit us all the time in

 5     our home.

 6        Q.   And before we get to those household visits, did you have

 7     occasion to see him out and about in the -- in the town during that

 8     time-period?

 9        A.   Sometimes.  We would run into each other in the street.

10        Q.   And with respect to those encounters now, let's focus on the ones

11     out in the street with Milan Lukic.  What, if anything, could you tell us

12     about those encounters?  Who was he with?  How was he attired?

13        A.   It was war-time.  Everybody wore a uniform.  All men wore

14     uniforms at that time, even my husband who was a doctor.  No one wore

15     civilian clothes.

16        Q.   And specifically with respect to Milan Lukic, did you ever

17     encounter him on the streets in the company of other persons whom you

18     recognised or knew from Visegrad, and if so, whom?

19        A.   I used to see him.  Our neighbour Dragan Tomic, who was a police

20     commander, was often with him.  Whether he was his driver or what, I

21     don't know.

22        Q.   Now -- now, if we could focus for a time-period on the house

23     visits when you said that Mr. Lukic came to visit you.  Do you have an

24     approximation as to how frequently that occurred?

25        A.   I don't know how often, how frequently, but two times a month or

Page 4188

 1     once a month, but we did keep in touch.

 2        Q.   And just for the record, I don't believe that we have covered

 3     exactly where you lived during 1992, during the war in Visegrad.  Could

 4     you describe for us what neighbourhood you -- you lived in at that point

 5     in time or otherwise identify the location?

 6        A.   We lived in a family house in a neighbourhood called Kalate.

 7        Q.   And when you say "we lived," who else lived there with you, or

 8     who were the members of your family, of your immediate family?

 9        A.   Now I have only my children left.

10        Q.   Were the children living with you the entire time at the family

11     home in the Kalate neighbourhood during 1992, during the hostilities in

12     Visegrad?

13        A.   No.  Very often, they were staying with my parents in Valjevo.

14     It was pointless to have one's children staying in Visegrad.  Whoever

15     could take their children somewhere else did so.  Muslims -- the Muslims

16     often shelled civilian facilities, schools, houses.  They didn't select

17     their targets.

18        Q.   Okay.  We'll get more to that time-period and to those

19     occurrences later.  With respect to that neighbourhood, you had indicated

20     earlier -- let me just double-check the -- the reference.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please move closer to the

22     microphone, the interpreters kindly request.

23             MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   You indicated your neighbour being a Dragan Tomic.  Do you

25     describe for us where or how close that house was of Mr. Tomic to the

Page 4189

 1     Vasiljevic family home where you resided with your husband during the

 2     war?

 3        A.   It was the fourth house from ours.

 4        Q.   And now, let's focus briefly for the time-period after the war.

 5     How often did you have occasion to encounter Milan Lukic after the war,

 6     and what can you tell us about those specific encounters with him?

 7        A.   We would meet at slava celebrations.  He would always come to our

 8     slava, and we would visit him when he had his slava.  His family

 9     celebrates St. John's Day, which is a day after our slava.  When his wife

10     gave birth, we came to visit.  When they baptised their little girl, we

11     went to the christening.  My family had many obligations, unfortunately,

12     especially my husband, so we didn't have much time for a lot of

13     socialising, but now I regret this fact.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What are slava celebrations?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's something that exists only

16     among Orthodox Serbs in Yugoslavia.  It doesn't exist among the Greeks or

17     the Russians.  It's a saint's day.  For example, my slava is St. George's

18     Day, and on that day we celebrate that saint.  He is the patron saint of

19     my family.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Every family has its own patron

22     saint.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

24             MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   During the war, did Milan Lukic ever have occasion to assist you

Page 4190

 1     in regards to any requests relative to your husband or to your children?

 2        A.   Once when I came from work, I couldn't find my son.  I was

 3     afraid.  He was in the third grade of primary school at the time.  As I

 4     had seen our kum with the police, I asked him to take a car and to look

 5     for my son.  I thought he might have set out to his grandmother's by bus,

 6     so I asked him to go and look at that bus, but my son was at home.  He

 7     was hiding.  He had been frightened by something, and he was hiding.

 8        Q.   Now, when you say:  "I had seen our kum with the police, and I

 9     asked him to take a car..." who is that particular kum whom you made this

10     request of?

11        A.   Milan Lukic.

12        Q.   And you asked him to take a car and look for the son.  Do you

13     know whether in fact he had complied with that request, and if so, how he

14     undertook it?

15        A.   He was frightened, and he immediately set out to look for him.

16     He was in a panic, just as I was, and fortunately, everything ended well.

17        Q.   And was it an ordinary type of car that he utilised, or was there

18     anything special about it?

19        A.   As far as I can remember, it was a police car.  I had my own car,

20     but I didn't think of asking him to drive my car because I was in a

21     panic.  So I think he used his official car.

22        Q.   Now, did you have occasion during the war to hear anything in

23     Visegrad, any kind of gossip, rumours, or reports about Milan Lukic

24     during the war and his -- and his activities during the war, and if so,

25     what?

Page 4191

 1        A.   I didn't hear anything.  I didn't hear anything unusual compared

 2     to what I heard about other men.

 3        Q.   Okay.  During the war, did you hear anything about any -- did you

 4     hear any bad things about him?

 5             MR. GROOME:  Objection as to leading, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, it's leading.

 7             MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation] Okay.  All right.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Reformulate.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  I will.

10        Q.   You say you didn't "hear anything unusual compared to what I

11     heard about other men."  What sorts of things did you hear?

12        A.   It was war-time.  Everybody had been mobilised.  Everybody went

13     to war, and the only thing that was interesting was who would remain

14     alive and who would be brought home dead.

15        Q.   And you've described all these various encounters with Milan

16     during the war, either on the street or when he visited your familial

17     home.  How would you describe Mr. Milan Lukic's demeanour during those

18     encounters that you had with him, again, during the war.

19        A.   These were very warm encounters.  He loved my children.  He loved

20     all children.  I heard that he gave sweets and chocolate to other

21     children in our street, not to just my children.  He liked joking around.

22     He would encourage us, try to keep our spirits up if we were short of

23     food or the Muslims were attacking.  He would say, Hold on; just hang on;

24     everything will be all right; this will all come to an end.  He gave us

25     moral support.  He would say, Everything will be all right.  And he

Page 4192

 1     adored children.

 2        Q.   And now, how, if you had to, would you describe his demeanour

 3     after the war?  Did it differ in any regard?

 4        A.   No, not at all.  He had his own children then, and he was even

 5     more caring then.

 6        Q.   And now based upon all these encounters with him, based upon your

 7     personal knowledge of Milan Lukic and your direct interactions with him,

 8     what opinion could you give us as to his character and personality in

 9     total?

10        A.   Well, I've already told you everything.  He was a good man, a

11     good friend, a good comrade, a good kum.  I can only say the best about

12     him, all the best.

13        Q.   And did you have occasion to have knowledge of his acts towards

14     others, of him helping anyone?

15        A.   He was very correct towards everyone.  Everyone adored him in the

16     town, and all the children loved him.

17        Q.   And how about his interactions with adults?  Did you have any

18     occasion to become familiar with any specific instances as to his

19     relations with adults either during the war or after the war?

20        A.   Never in all these years, either in the course of the war or

21     after the war did I hear anybody say a bad word about him.

22        Q.   Did you hear anyone say anything positive about him, in

23     particular that he had assisted them in any -- in any time?

24        A.   He helped everybody, whoever asked for help.  I had occasion to

25     ask for his help only once, and he helped me.  But whoever came to him

Page 4193

 1     for help, if he was able to help, he helped everybody.

 2        Q.   And now, did you have occasion at some point in time to become

 3     familiar with certain allegations of crimes against Milan Lukic, and if

 4     so, when and under what circumstances?

 5        A.   I learned this when I found an indictment against Milan and

 6     Sredoje Lukic on the internet.  I was shocked and surprised to see that.

 7     It was the first time I had heard about all those things.

 8        Q.   And when you say you found an indictment against Milan and

 9     Sredoje, before what court was that indictment that we -- that you're

10     referring to?

11        A.   This court.

12        Q.   And you indicated that you were surprised to see it and it was

13     the first time that you heard about those things.  Let me ask you

14     specifically.  During the war, did you have occasion as a resident of

15     Visegrad to hear anything about any alleged instance of house-burnings

16     wherein large numbers of persons of Muslim ethnicity perished and were

17     killed in either the Pionirska or the Bikavac neighbourhoods?

18        A.   I certainly never heard anything about that.  Visegrad is a small

19     town.  News like that would have spread.  If so many people had been

20     burned alive, there would have been a stench that could simply not be

21     concealed.  It would have spread throughout the entire valley.  This

22     wasn't something that one could possibly have concealed.  I think this is

23     all a huge - what shall I call it - mistake.

24        Q.   And you say it could not be concealed.  It would have -- strike

25     that.

Page 4194

 1             You say it's a small town.  Do you have familiarity with any of

 2     the -- of those two sites that are alleged -- where it is alleged that

 3     this -- that this occurred?  How familiar are you with those areas?

 4        A.   I said Visegrad is a small town.  I know all of the places.  I

 5     know about this one house.  I'm not sure about the other, but I do know

 6     the other one.  I live right next to it, as a matter of fact, the house

 7     where these people are alleged to have been burned alive.  That

 8     particular house did burn down, but it certainly wasn't alone.  Many Serb

 9     and Muslim houses burned down at the time.

10        Q.   And with respect to what you found out when you examined the

11     indictment in this case against Mr. Milan Lukic, are you able to

12     reconcile any of those alleged acts contained therein with your personal

13     knowledge and experience of Milan Lukic, the human being and person?

14        A.   It has nothing to do with him.  No way could I reconcile the two,

15     and I really hope that everyone will see for themselves that this is

16     simply impossible.

17        Q.   Thank you.  One other individual I'd like to just ask you briefly

18     about.  Are you familiar with Mitar Vasiljevic?

19        A.   Yes.  He's my husband's relative.

20        Q.   Do you know him well enough to be able to describe him or tell us

21     anything about him that stands out?

22        A.   I know him really well.  He lived in our neighbourhood as well.

23     We socialised before the war and later.  He was an alcoholic.  It is an

24     embarrassing thing to say, but he was some sort of a clown or a buffoon

25     around town.  Everyone was having jokes at his expense.  He was all right

Page 4195

 1     for everybody else but not for the own family or for his children.  He

 2     was the laughingstock of the entire town.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Oh, I'm sorry.  Go ahead, finish.  I didn't realise

 4     you weren't finished.

 5        A.   Quite frequently during the war, they would call me because they

 6     knew he was my husband's relative.  He would get drunk, fall asleep out

 7     in the street.  I would drive over, pick him up, take him home, saying,

 8     Mitar, don't bring shame on our family like this.  He liked me and he

 9     would listen to me.  He would follow my advice.  He would just get up,

10     get into the car, and drive home with me.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And now, ma'am, if we could return back to the one

12     topic you had started upon and I said we'd touch earlier, and that is to

13     say, with respect to the Vasiljevic familial home wherein you resided,

14     you indicated your children weren't there the entire time.  I'd like to

15     first ask you, did you remain in Visegrad the entire year in 1992, or did

16     you have occasion to move or relocate somewhere else for any reason?

17        A.   In 1991, on the 28th of May specifically, I gave birth to a

18     daughter.  Twenty days after that, I had to flee Visegrad.  I got into my

19     car with my baby and with my son who was 10 years old at the time.  There

20     was also another neighbour of ours with her baby.  We had to flee

21     Visegrad because we had been receiving phone threats.  I didn't have the

22     courage to send my son to school anymore.  We were receiving a great many

23     threats from the Muslims.  I went to Valjevo with the children and stayed

24     there until September 1991, throughout that summer, after which I

25     returned to Visegrad.  I was on sick leave at the time.  I wasn't

Page 4196

 1     actually working.

 2             In May, possibly April, I can't be sure about the date, I had to

 3     flee again with the children.  The day I drove through the tunnel was

 4     blown up in Dobrun, I came across a Muslim barricade.  Not a Muslim

 5     barricade.  It was a barricade or a roadblock that was erected by the

 6     police, but at the time all the Serbs had been driven out of the police,

 7     force and only Muslims remain in the force.  They put up those huge spiky

 8     obstacles right in the middle of the road.  They stopped me --

 9        Q.   I'm sorry, go ahead.

10        A.   They started rummaging through our belongings, but there were

11     only diapers there.  We had two babies with us.  I said, Please don't.  I

12     stood up to them.  They threw my documents on the ground and said, Be

13     gone.  And this is how you speak to a dog over where I come from.

14        Q.   Now, if we --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  One microphone at a time

16     while the witness is speaking, please.  Thank you.

17             MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   If -- if we can go back.  You had indicated you were receiving

19     threats and you did not have courage to send your son to school.  Could

20     you give us more details relating to that?

21        A.   It was at night-time, 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning.  They would

22     phone us to say, You'll send your son over to school, will you, but will

23     he be back?  That is the question.  That's what they said.  Sometime in

24     February 1992, I think, one of my husband's colleagues, Avdija Zahiragic,

25     came to our home.  This man is still alive.  He lives in Sarajevo.  He

Page 4197

 1     said that he was not allowed to go to work anymore because he had heard

 2     in a body of the SDA that they would arrest him.  From February on until

 3     the Uzice Corps came into town, he hadn't shown up for work.

 4        Q.   When you said he was not allowed to go to work anymore because

 5     they would arrest him, who is the "he" and the "him" in that portion of

 6     your testimony?

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat what she said?

 8     The interpreter didn't hear the answer.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, will you please repeat what you just

10     said?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] February 1992, a colleague of my

12     husband's came to our home, Avdija Zahiragic, and told him he shouldn't

13     go to work anymore or mustn't go to work anymore because he heard from

14     some people, his own party, the SDA, that it was Rasa's turn to be

15     arrested now.  Throughout this time, he allowed him to remain on sick

16     leave and issued him with appropriate documents so that he wouldn't have

17     to go to work.

18             MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   And I think the Judge was asking me, when you say Rasa, is that

20     -- who is that?  I think we had mentioned that earlier, but just for the

21     record, who is Rasa?

22        A.   Radomir, my husband.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, does that address your question or...

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Pardon?

25             MR. IVETIC:  Does that adequately address your question, or can I

Page 4198

 1     proceed?

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, you can proceed.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Now, when you -- during the time periods when you left Visegrad,

 5     you indicated you left with your neighbour.  Do you have any knowledge as

 6     to what other persons in Visegrad were doing, other -- other civilians

 7     like yourself, were doing during that time-period?

 8        A.   All those who had somewhere to move their children to over in

 9     Serbia did just that, all of them.  Those who had to stay behind and work

10     were quite scared to have to do that.  I was lucky to be able to remain

11     on sick leave at the time.

12             There were horrible things going on.  In broad daylight, they

13     would pull a car over, force a man or a woman from the car, leave the

14     car, and then just beat them there, right there in the street.  There

15     were no police around to complain to.

16        Q.   Did you have occasion to return to Visegrad at any point in time

17     for work or otherwise, and if so, could you tell us about that, when it

18     was?

19        A.   I went back in 1992, May 1992, when the Uzice Corps came to

20     Visegrad.  They -- they called me to respond to what we refer to as the

21     work assignment.  All of us went back, both Serbs and Muslims.  Many

22     Muslims had fled Visegrad with their children previously.  We all worked

23     together as if nothing at all was going on.

24        Q.   And at that point in time, you said you had to respond to what

25     you referred to as a work assignment.  Did you in fact go back to your

Page 4199

 1     employment?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And if we could focus on that time-period, what was the condition

 4     of the town of Visegrad during that time-period?  Did you note any damage

 5     or anything?

 6        A.   When I came back to Visegrad, I could hardly recognise the place.

 7     It had been largely destroyed.  All the shops were smashed up.  It was a

 8     horrifying sight.  It had turned into a horror town, shards of glass all

 9     over the place.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, if we can return to your husband's line of work

11     in 1992.  During the war, did he have occasion to speak to you regularly

12     about persons that he was treating as patients or otherwise?

13        A.   Quite rarely, in fact, only when there was something exceptional.

14     He had taken the oath of Hippocrates, and he stuck to that.  We hardly

15     ever discussed his business at home, and this cut both ways.  But

16     whenever there was something exceptionally noteworthy, we might have

17     brought it up with each other.

18        Q.   And was there in fact an occasion where there was something

19     exceptional that you recall your husband relaying to you about persons

20     treated by him during the course of the war in 1992?

21        A.   It was in the summer of 1992, and I don't remember the date or

22     the month.  It might have been June or July.  He came home and told me

23     that he had never before seen a woman like that with burns of the highest

24     degree.  Her arms were burned, her face, her hair.  She had tried to

25     light a cigarette by using a gas stove and then caught fire.

Page 4200

 1        Q.   If -- if we --

 2        A.   He was horrified by this.

 3        Q.   If we could break this down a bit.  First of all, you indicated

 4     that this individual's arms were burned, her face, her hair.  Did -- what

 5     about the rest of her body?  Did your husband relate to you anything with

 6     respect to the condition of the rest of her body?

 7        A.   The rest was all right.  She could walk, but she caught fire when

 8     she tried to light a cigarette by using this gas stove.  We have a gas

 9     stove, too, back at our home, and that's how I light my cigarette very

10     often when I run out of matches.  She leaned into the flame, and then the

11     gas burned her.

12        Q.   Did you ever have occasion to discover the name or identity of

13     the person who had suffered such injuries in the manner described, either

14     from your husband or from any other source?

15        A.   I didn't know at the time who he was talking about.  However -

16     and I'm not sure what the year was - a friend of ours from Sarajevo sent

17     us a book by Ibrahim Klunj, called "Testimony."  It was then that we

18     found out the woman's name was Zehra Turjacanin who expressed her

19     gratitude to Dr. Rasa because he had saved her life and helped her a

20     great deal.  I read later on on the internet and in the press about her

21     evidence here at the Tribunal and realised that she had changed her

22     story, which struck me as entirely pointless.

23        Q.   And now with respect to this individual, you had indicated

24     earlier the method in which she was injured.  Did your husband relay to

25     you the bases for his knowledge that she had injured herself trying to

Page 4201

 1     light a cigarette by using a stove -- a gas stove?  Did he illuminate the

 2     bases for his knowledge of that?

 3        A.   Well, I do know about that.  There was a nurse who was with him

 4     at the time, another neighbour of ours.  She worked at the health centre,

 5     Slavica Pabic [Realtime transcript read in error, "Babic"].  The two of

 6     them were called by the command jointly.  There was a command at Bikavac.

 7     It's Papic, not Babic.  They didn't know who this was.  They had no idea

 8     that this woman was of a different ethnicity.  They just got into the

 9     ambulance, they went there to pick her up, and when they picked her up

10     they told them that.  They gave her the shots, the medicines, and drove

11     her back home.  I'm not sure who the house that she was driven back to

12     belonged to.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And I'm sorry, if we could just have the last name of

14     the individual who had authored this book called "Svedocinje" [phoen] or

15     "Testimony"?

16        A.   Ibrahim Kljun.  He used to work as a photographer in Visegrad

17     before the war.

18        Q.   And you indicated that a friend from Sarajevo had sent that to

19     you.  What was the ethnic or religious affiliation of that particular

20     friend who sent that book to you?

21        A.   He was a Muslim, Hazim Ustamujic.  Ustamujic.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Just a moment so I can consult my notes.  I think ...

23             I apologise.  I don't have it on my screen now, but did you

24     indicate when -- what time-period this friend sent the book from

25     Sarajevo?  Was it during the war or after the war?  Can you -- can you

Page 4202

 1     narrow down the time-period at all for us?

 2        A.   It was just before the end of the war.  It might have been 1995.

 3        Q.   And -- and how did your husband react upon receiving that book

 4     and -- and reading of Ms. Turjacanin's thanks and praise of him for

 5     assisting her?

 6        A.   He was glad she thought of him, but he was shocked when he heard

 7     about her other story.

 8        Q.   And if we could back up for a moment to another topic, another

 9     individual.  Are you familiar with Miljana Krsmanovic?

10        A.   Of course.  The prettiest girl in Visegrad.  She was a doctor

11     too.  She was my kum's girlfriend.

12        Q.   When you say she was the girlfriend of your kum, again, I have to

13     ask you to specify.  Which kum are you talking about?  Which specific kum

14     is --

15        A.   Milan Lukic.

16        Q.   And you indicated she was a doctor too.  What was it -- what was

17     it -- what was her speciality or employment?  Where did she work, if you

18     know?

19        A.   She was a GP.  She worked at the health centre.  She didn't

20     specialise in any particular field.  Back where I come from, when a

21     doctor completes his studies they take another four years to specialise

22     and yet another four years to sub-specialise, as they say.

23        Q.   And did you have occasion to ever witness or be visited by Milan

24     and Dr. Miljana, and if so, what can you tell us about those visits?  How

25     did he act, et cetera?

Page 4203

 1        A.   They were in love.  She was pretty.  She was a stunning beauty.

 2     I don't think I'd ever seen a woman as pretty as her in my whole life.

 3        Q.   I apologise.  I'm waiting for the transcript again.  Could you

 4     tell us what time-period this was that Mr. Milan Lukic and Dr. Miljana

 5     Krsmanovic were boyfriend/girlfriend?  Could you tell us what time-period

 6     that took place in?  When was this?

 7        A.   I can't quite say, I'm afraid.  I might go wrong.  Was it 1993 or

 8     1994?  I don't know.

 9        Q.   How about in reference to the -- to the war?  Was it before,

10     during, after?

11        A.   During.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Mrs. Vasiljevic, I thank you.  At this time I have no

13     further questions in direct examination.  I may have some more in

14     re-direct depending on how my colleague on the other side proceeds, but

15     at this time, Mrs. Vasiljevic, I'd like to thank you and pass the

16     witness.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can I ask you, Witness, whether your husband was

18     in the habit of discussing his patients with you?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just when there was something

20     extreme.  I know of other two cases like that.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

22             Yes, Mr. Groome.

23             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Groome:

25        Q.   Good afternoon, Mrs. Vasiljevic.  My name is Dermot Groome, and

Page 4204

 1     I'm going to ask you a few questions on behalf of the Prosecution.

 2             Can I begin by asking you, what was your family name before you

 3     married into the Vasiljevic family?

 4        A.   Raskovic.

 5        Q.   Now, you've mentioned a few times of -- of working and being on

 6     sick leave during different periods.  Can I ask you the name of the --

 7     the company that you -- that you worked for?

 8        A.   UPI.  UPI Visegrad.  U-p-i.  It was a huge corporation

 9     headquartered in Sarajevo.

10        Q.   And what kind of work does UPI do?

11        A.   Trade.

12        Q.   And where is the -- the physical location of where you worked in

13     Visegrad?

14        A.   The administration building.  The centre of Visegrad.

15        Q.   Now, you've -- you've told us a bit about this kumship

16     relationship that you have with Milan Lukic.  Is it also true that your

17     family has a kumship relationship with Sredoje Lukic as well?

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Mr. Cepic.

19             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, I haven't found anything in direct

20     examination related to my client and family relations to Sredoje Lukic's

21     family.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And that prevents the question asked being

23     asked.

24             MR. CEPIC:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

Page 4205

 1             MR. GROOME:  I'm just trying to get in a bit detail exactly the

 2     extent of this kumship relationship.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I think we should move on.  Mr. Ivetic spent 50

 4     minutes, Mr. Groome.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Is the objection sustained, Your Honour?

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Yes.  Move on.

 7             MR. GROOME:

 8        Q.   What -- you've spoken about slavas and patron saints.  What is

 9     the patron saint of the Lukic family?  What is their slava?

10        A.   St. JohnSt. John's Day.  As a matter of fact, it's tomorrow,

11     the 20th of January.

12        Q.   Now, I'm a little unclear as to when precisely in the summer of

13     1992 you were physically present in Visegrad.  I take it that you -- you

14     said you returned at some point in May of 1992; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Are you able to be more precise about when in May of 1992?

17        A.   I can't be specific about the date, but it can be checked.  It

18     was after the Uzice Corps had entered Visegrad.  It was after that that

19     we all went back and we were called back to work, both Serbs and Muslims.

20        Q.   And when you returned to Visegrad in May of 1992, did you remain

21     there throughout the course of the summer, in June, July, and August of

22     1992?

23        A.   Yes, but I went to visit my children very often.

24        Q.   Now, you also testified that -- that you lived right next to one

25     of the houses that's the subject of -- of this case.  Which house, if you

Page 4206

 1     can be more specific.

 2        A.   I didn't live there.  I now live next to the house in question,

 3     since a year ago.

 4        Q.   Now, when you said that you live in Kalate, is that -- you live

 5     in Kalate now or you lived there in 1992?

 6        A.   I lived in Kalate in 1992.  I now live in Pionirska Street, house

 7     number 25.

 8        Q.   Can you give us some idea about where Kalate neighbourhood is in

 9     relation to the Pionirska Street or the Mahala section of town?

10        A.   Pionirska is not called Mahala.  Mahala is another street, not

11     Pionirska Street, and Kalate is near the River Drina.

12        Q.   And Kalate, is it on the right bank or the left bank of the

13     Drina?

14        A.   On the right bank.

15        Q.   And is it north of the town centre or south of the town centre?

16        A.   Down the Drina River towards Bajina Basta.

17        Q.   So it's south of the town; is that correct?  I saw you nod your

18     head.  We need a verbal answer to record you.

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20        Q.   So would I be correct in saying that anything that happened in

21     Pionirska Street in 1992, you would not have been in a position to hear

22     it or witness any part of it from where your house was located in the

23     Kalate section of town; is that correct?

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I would object as to the question being

25     too vague.  He says "anything."  If he has a specific instance or

Page 4207

 1     occurrence, let him -- let him specify that.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It seems to me the witness should be in a

 3     position to answer.

 4             Can you answer the question, Witness?  Yes, go ahead.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  From my house, you can't see

 6     the house in Pionirska Street, but it's so close that I would have had to

 7     smell the stench.  I would have had to hear shooting.  I have had

 8     opportunity to see what it looks like when a house is burning.  Tiles

 9     shatter, walls crack.  You have to hear that.  I couldn't have seen it

10     because there was a low hill between, but I would have smelt the stench,

11     and I would have heard the noise because the smell of people burning is

12     terrible.  It's a disaster.  I would have had to smell something.

13             MR. GROOME:

14        Q.   And do you know what day the Pionirska Street fire took place or,

15     in your view, it's alleged to have taken place.  Do you know what the

16     date is?

17        A.   No.  I learned that from you, here.

18        Q.   So during June of 1992, you have no recollection of seeing,

19     hearing, or smelling anything which would indicate to you that a large

20     number of people were burnt to death; is that correct?

21        A.   No.  One would have to know.  Visegrad Grad is a small town.

22     People would talk about it.  People would talk about it.  Somebody would

23     mention it.

24        Q.   Now, I couldn't help but notice when you walked into the

25     courtroom, you waved at Mr. Milan Lukic and gave him a big smile.  Would

Page 4208

 1     it be correct to say that you still have deep affection for Milan Lukic,

 2     your kum?

 3        A.   I adore him.  I love him.

 4        Q.   Now --

 5        A.   He is a saint.  He's like a patron saint of my family.  He was my

 6     son's godfather.  That's not a small matter.  My son will not be able to

 7     get married until he gives him his blessing and takes him to church as

 8     his best man.

 9        Q.   Now, you testified that you would join in celebrations with the

10     family of your kum.  That's correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   In 1992, did you join together to celebrate Djurdjevdan Day?

13        A.   We didn't celebrate Djurdjevdan together.  Everyone celebrates in

14     their own house and guests arrive.  My kum was my guest at my Slavs, and

15     we were his guests at his slava.  As my husband was unable to go at the

16     time, I went there with my son because this goes down the male line in

17     the family.  Women do not inherit the kum relationship; only men do.  I

18     went with my son so that my son could break the cake at his slava

19     celebration.

20        Q.   Can you remind me again, what is your slava?

21        A.   St. George.  That's Djurdjevdan, on the 7th of May.

22        Q.   And did Milan Lukic come to your home to help celebrate

23     Djurdjevdan Day with you in 1992?

24        A.   Not in 1992 but in 1993.  I don't think I knew him then, but I

25     did get to know him in 1993, and then he came regularly.

Page 4209

 1        Q.   What was the year that the child -- your child was born that he's

 2     the godfather?

 3        A.   1982.

 4        Q.   So it seems you first met Milan Lukic when?

 5        A.   My child was born in 1982, but as Milan comes from a village near

 6     Visegrad, he went to school there, as I heard, and then he was away

 7     working somewhere on a temporary basis, so I didn't meet him, and it was

 8     only after 1987 that I began to live in Visegrad permanently.  He was

 9     already away from Visegrad.  I knew his parents, and I met him only when

10     he came back in 1992, and he was my son's godfather on Djurdjevdan in

11     1997.

12        Q.   So did you -- when in 1992 did you meet Milan Lukic?  Is it

13     during the summer or after the summer?

14        A.   In 1992?  Well, as soon as he arrived in Visegrad we got to know

15     one another.  It might have been in May when I myself got back after

16     being a refugee.

17        Q.   You said that you went to -- you spent -- you went to Muslim

18     families to celebrate their holiday, Bajram.  Do you remember who you

19     spent Bajram with in 1992?  What was the name of the family?

20        A.   I didn't celebrate their holidays.  I went to visit them as their

21     guest, out of respect.

22        Q.   Who was the --

23        A.   But I didn't celebrate Bajram.  I did visit my friends who

24     celebrated Bajram out of respect for them.

25        Q.   I understand.  I apologise for the misstatement.  What friends

Page 4210

 1     did you visit in 1992 to visit during -- when they were celebrated

 2     Bajram?

 3        A.   In 1992, I didn't visit anyone.

 4        Q.   Now, in your evidence you testified that during the -- the spring

 5     and summer of 1992, you did not hear any rumours about Milan Lukic being

 6     involved in any kind of wrong-doing; is that correct?

 7        A.   No, I didn't.

 8        Q.   Did you hear any rumours about Sredoje Lukic being involved in

 9     any wrong-doing?

10        A.   No.

11             MR. CEPIC:  We already have answer in transcript, Your Honour,

12     but just one more time to -- to stress that my client is not mentioned in

13     direct examination.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let us look at that rule again.  What's the

15     Rule, Mr. Groome?  Is it 80 --

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm not exactly sure which Rule the

17     Chamber is referring.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Is it 90 -- 90(h)(i), which says

19     cross-examination shall be limited to the subject matter of the evidence

20     in chief.  It's on that basis, Mr. Cepic, that you object?

21             MR. CEPIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Yes.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The question is, How is that to be interpreted?

23     I've always found it to be a little limiting myself.  Does it mean

24     literally that the cross-examiner cannot mention a name if that name

25     wasn't mentioned in the examination-in-chief?

Page 4211

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I think it doesn't, and if I would just

 2     read the second part of the sentence:  "The cross-examination shall be

 3     limited to the subject matter of the evidence-in-chief and matters

 4     affecting the credibility of the witness and where the witness is able to

 5     give evidence relevant to the case for the cross-examining party to the

 6     subject matter of that case."

 7             Clearly, in this case the witness knows Sredoje Lukic equally

 8     well.  I should be entitled to put questions with respect to her

 9     knowledge of Sredoje Lukic.  As well, Mr. Cepic will certainly have an

10     opportunity to ask any other questions of the witness related to those

11     matters.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What is the part of the Rule that you say allows

13     you to do that?

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the second part of the sentence in

15     (h)(i), after the comma where it says:

16             "... and, where the witness is able to give evidence relevant to

17     the case for the cross-examining party."

18             So in this particular case, it would be where the witness is able

19     to give evidence relevant to the case for the Prosecution.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic?

21             MR. CEPIC:  I don't have that view as Mr. Groome has.  I think

22     that this role is clear related to that issue, and also, Mr. Groome

23     quoted that this witness knows Sredoje Lukic equally well, but I did not

24     hear that, and -- but just to conclude this discussion related to Sredoje

25     Lukic, we received from this witness clear answer related to the last

Page 4212

 1     question of Mr. Groome.

 2             Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

 5             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can you assist us in the interpretation of this

 7     Rule?  I know that in the country where I'm from, the question would be

 8     allowed.

 9             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I think it's up to the discretion of

10     the Court, and beyond the scope of direct examination I understand

11     Mr. Cepic's objection, and we did not bring up Mr. Sredoje Lukic at all

12     in our -- in our direct exam.  So I would simply leave it to the

13     discretion of the Court.  I think it's -- it's interpretable either way.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic, I'm rethinking the interpretation of

15     this, and I'm inclined to believe it must be given the wider -- the wider

16     scope, the broader scope.  I can't see how you would be prejudiced

17     because you will have the right to examine on anything raised by

18     Mr. Groome.

19             I'm going to allow the question.

20             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And just if I may say with

21     your leave, when Mr. Vasiljevic testified before this Honourable Trial

22     Chamber, I requested leave to ask him couple questions on the basis of

23     this -- of the same Rule, and it was not allowed in that situation, but

24     thank you very much for explanation, and if I feel any need, I will ask

25     for re-examination.

Page 4213

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.

 2             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

 3             MR. GROOME:

 4        Q.   Mrs. Vasiljevic, the next question I'd like to ask you is prior

 5     to the war, how would you have characterized the ethnic make-up of the

 6     neighborhood you lived in, the Kalate area, mixed ethnicity or

 7     predominantly populated by one of the ethnicities?

 8        A.   It was mixed.

 9        Q.   And are you able to tell us the mix using percentages?  Are you

10     able to give us a rough estimate of how mixed it was?

11        A.   The right bank of the Drina was for the most part Serbian, but

12     there were Muslim houses here and there, while on the left bank there was

13     a purely Muslim population.  We accepted them on our side of the river,

14     but they did not accept us on theirs.

15        Q.   And would you be able to tell me today, just confined to your

16     neighbourhood, Kalate, what would be -- what would be the number of

17     Muslim families that live there today?

18             MR. IVETIC:  I would object that he's misstating the testimony.

19     She's indicated that she no longer lives in Kalate, so to call it her

20     neighbourhood is a bit misleading, I think.  She might be able to figure

21     out what he means by that, but the question as stated is misleading and

22     misstates the evidence.

23             MR. GROOME:

24        Q.   Are you able to tell us today the ethnic composition of Kalate?

25        A.   I know that there were some houses there that had been destroyed

Page 4214

 1     and that have been rebuilt, but believe me, I have no idea who lives

 2     there now because I don't live there anymore.

 3        Q.   Now, can I ask you, how did you come to be a witness in this

 4     case?  Who asked you to be a witness?

 5        A.   The lawyer.

 6        Q.   Do you know the name of the lawyer who -- who asked you to be a

 7     witness?

 8        A.   Jelena.

 9        Q.   And how many times did you meet with Jelena prior to today?

10        A.   Only once.

11        Q.   And did you meet with any other members of the Defence team prior

12     to coming here to testify, prior to testifying today?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Now, when you met with Jelena, did she interview you with respect

15     to what information that you might be able to provide that was relevant

16     to this case?

17        A.   She asked me whether I wished to testify.  I said I did.  I would

18     say everything I knew.  There was no problem.  I asked, What is this

19     about?  She said, We will inform you.  I signed a statement concerning

20     that woman who was burnt and nothing else.

21        Q.   Can you describe the statement that you signed?  How -- how long

22     was the statement that you signed?

23        A.   Five or six lines perhaps.

24        Q.   And did you have to go anywhere to sign it in terms -- did you go

25     to sign it in front of anyone, or did you just sign it in front of

Page 4215

 1     Jelena?

 2        A.   Oh, we had it certified in court.

 3        Q.   In what court did you certify this written statement that you

 4     provided?

 5        A.   In the court in Uzice.

 6        Q.   And as best you can recall, when was that that you certified this

 7     written statement?

 8        A.   It was -- I was experiencing great problems at the time.  I was

 9     selling my flat in Cacak, and I had to travel a lot, so it's all mixed up

10     as regards the time, but I think it was most probably in October.  I'm

11     not a hundred per cent certain of that.

12        Q.   And did you --

13        A.   But I do have the statement at home.  I didn't pay attention to

14     the date.  I didn't think it was important.  Why is it so important?

15        Q.   And have you seen a copy of the statement after arriving here in

16     The Hague?

17        A.   I left that statement at home in Visegrad.  I didn't even bring

18     it with me.

19        Q.   If it became important, would you be able to provide that

20     statement to the Chamber?

21        A.   Well, I've already told you everything.  I've said everything,

22     even more extensively.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, it's time for the break.

24             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The Prosecutor took 50 minutes -- I'm sorry, the

Page 4216

 1     Defence took 50 minutes, and I'll give you about an hour.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 3.53 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Mrs. Vasiljevic, can you see either of the bridges in Visegrad

 8     from where you live, where you live at in 1992?

 9        A.   I can see both bridges.

10        Q.   And during June -- let's say May to August of 1992, did you ever

11     see anything which you thought was unusual occur on either of the

12     bridges?

13        A.   No, I didn't.

14        Q.   During this period of time, did you travel into town to -- to

15     shop for your family and take care of other -- other chores of daily

16     life?

17        A.   I went to town every day because I worked in the town, but there

18     was no shopping because there was nothing to be bought.

19        Q.   Well, during your daily excursions into town for work, did you

20     see anything that you thought was unusual occurring in the town?

21        A.   Well, most often we women talked a lot about the fact that all

22     our husbands, brothers, and friends were in the army.  When an action was

23     being prepared, when there was shelling, we only discussed where we would

24     run to and where we would shelter our children.  That was a huge problem

25     for us, the biggest problem.

Page 4217

 1        Q.   And aside from that, did you see any other unusual occurrences in

 2     the town?  People in the town that you had not seen before, armed groups

 3     moving through the town, did you see anything like that?

 4        A.   There were always armed groups in town.  It was all our army,

 5     police.  It was unusual that every day there were funerals.  We went to

 6     the cemetery every day.  Sometimes we had to run because shells landed on

 7     the cemetery next to the church.  All this was unusual for us.  Maybe

 8     someone would not find it unusual, but we all found it extremely unusual.

 9     I don't know what you are referring to.

10        Q.   Well, let me ask you more specifically.  Do you have any

11     observations about how the Muslim population of Visegrad was treated

12     between June 1992 till about August 1992?

13        A.   After the Uzice Corps left Visegrad, an offer was made to the

14     Muslims, and I even had occasion several times to see buses.  On the

15     radio they called upon them.  They said whoever wants to leave Visegrad,

16     transport will be provided.  The buses were parked in front of the hotel,

17     and they drove them to wherever they wanted to go.

18        Q.   And did those people who got on those buses and leave the town,

19     did they abandon their homes and their farms and their businesses when

20     they did that?

21        A.   Well, they couldn't take their houses and their land on the bus.

22     When I fled from Visegrad, all I took with me were diapers, Pampers

23     diapers for my children.  I couldn't take my home with me.  The question

24     is absurd.  How can they put their home on a bus and go?

25        Q.   You testified that your husband wore a military uniform during

Page 4218

 1     this time; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did your husband have military duties?

 4        A.   My husband had no military duties.  Before the war, he didn't

 5     even serve in the army because of an injury to his eye.

 6        Q.   Who required him to wear a military uniform during this period?

 7        A.   No one required anyone to do that, but all the men wore uniforms

 8     because they were conscripted, each doing his own job.  When they called

 9     him up in the Medical Corps to go to the woods because there were wounded

10     there, he wouldn't go there in a white coat and white trousers.  It was

11     all camouflaged so that he wouldn't be seen and killed.

12        Q.   It's traditional that doctors serving in a military wear a red

13     cross so that they're simply identified as simply being medical

14     personnel.  Do you ever recall seeing your husband wearing the red cross

15     on his uniform?

16        A.   He did not wear a red cross, but his paramedic who accompanied

17     him wore a red cross on his arm band, and there were red crosses on the

18     vehicle, just as in the case of UN soldiers.  Their doctors also walked

19     around in camouflage uniforms in our part of the world.

20        Q.   I just want to be clear.  With respect to the information you're

21     providing about Zehra Turjacanin, all of that or the sole source of that

22     is your husband; correct?

23        A.   The only source was he, the book, and what I read here on the

24     internet from The Hague Tribunal.

25        Q.   But with respect to this portion of your evidence with respect to

Page 4219

 1     her burning herself on a gas stove, am I correct in thinking that your

 2     husband is the sole source of that piece of information?

 3        A.   He and the sister who with him, accompanying him.

 4        Q.   That's Ms. Papic.  Did you speak with Ms. Papic about this as

 5     well?

 6        A.   No.  She's a nurse, and she no longer lives in Visegrad.

 7        Q.   Do you know where she lives today?

 8        A.   Somewhere in Belgrade.  I don't know where exactly.

 9        Q.   But she didn't tell you about the gas stove.  It's simply your

10     husband, Dr. Vasiljevic, who told you about the -- the accident with the

11     gas stove; correct?

12        A.   They were on their way back from work together.  Her mother's

13     house is a stone's throw from ours.  They would go to work together and

14     come back home from work together.  We had coffee together every day.  We

15     Serbs tend to hang out together a lot, and this is something that I've

16     been telling you about.  I think she was there, too, when we were talking

17     about this because they were shocked what the degree of the woman's burns

18     was, how large the burns were, and this was something that a doctor would

19     have found striking.  This is not something that you come across every

20     day.

21        Q.   Now, Ms. -- so, Mrs. Vasiljevic, so it's your testimony that not

22     only did your husband tell you about the accident with the gas stove, but

23     also nurse Papic who accompanied him, she also told you about the

24     accident with the gas stove.  Is that your evidence?  Yes or no, if

25     you're able to answer it either way.

Page 4220

 1        A.   She was there when he told me that.

 2        Q.   And I take from your testimony that they told you the day it

 3     happened or very shortly after they met with Zehra Turjacanin; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Well, maybe that evening or perhaps the next time we met.  My

 6     husband did not exactly come home every day.

 7        Q.   Now, after that initial time that you had this conversation and

 8     your husband told you about Zehra Turjacanin, did you ever discuss it

 9     with him again?

10        A.   Yes, when we read about her story, the story that was quite

11     unlike what she had told him and what she had said in that book.  I might

12     never have remembered her again in my whole life had it not been for her

13     new statement, which was exactly the reverse of what she had said

14     previously.  We were entirely shocked.  I hadn't even known what the

15     woman's name was, and I don't think he had either.

16        Q.   Ma'am --

17        A.   We just weren't interested.

18        Q.   My time is limited, so I would appreciate if you were able to

19     answer my questions in a brief way, it would help me get through my

20     questions, and we can move on to the next witness.  Thank you.

21             When did you first read this book that was sent to you from this

22     person in Sarajevo?

23        A.   Perhaps 1995, possibly 1996.  I can't be more specific.

24        Q.   Now, between the time that your husband first told you about the

25     gas stove accident and the time you read about Zehra Turjacanin in this

Page 4221

 1     book, did you and your husband ever discuss Zehra Turjacanin and her

 2     treatment again?

 3        A.   He did say he was surprised she didn't turn up for the check.  He

 4     had no idea what had become of her.  We didn't even know if she was still

 5     alive or dead.  Later on, we read the book and he said, Oh, thank God for

 6     this.  He had obviously provided her with sufficient medicine for her to

 7     make it.  Had he not assisted her medically, she would not have made it.

 8        Q.   You said he was surprised she did not turn up for the check.  Am

 9     I to take from your answer that your husband told you that he had

10     scheduled an appointment for her to be examined and treated again by your

11     husband?  Is that correct?

12        A.   I don't know whether he gave her an appointment or not.

13        Q.   Well, the record records you as saying that -- let me just see if

14     I can get the exact reference.  I'm sorry.  Just bear with me for a

15     minute.

16             Now, the record on page 44, line 10, records you as saying:  "He

17     did not" -- "He did say he was surprised she didn't turn up for the

18     check."  What did you mean when you said that?

19        A.   I meant that the burns were horrendous, at least based on what he

20     told me.  People go back to their doctors even for much slighter

21     injuries, and given the extent of her injuries, it was only surprising

22     that she could would not reappear at some point.  He had no idea what had

23     become of her.

24        Q.   Now, you testified just a question before this one that your

25     husband was surprised that she had made it.  Am I to take from that that

Page 4222

 1     your husband thought that there was a risk of death that this woman faced

 2     because of the severity of her burns?

 3        A.   Most probably.  He had no opportunity at the time to take her to

 4     a hospital anywhere, but he gave her sufficient medicine and told her how

 5     to use it, but it is very relative, all things considered.

 6        Q.   Now, you told us that your husband died.  Can I ask you what year

 7     your husband died, please?

 8        A.   2002.

 9        Q.   Now, in 2001 your husband actually came to this Tribunal and

10     testified in the case of Mitar Vasiljevic.  Did he tell you that?

11        A.   Of course.

12        Q.   And he actually sat in the very spot now where you are sitting.

13     Your husband, prior to coming to testify, asked for a certificate of safe

14     passage, in other words, a certificate guaranteeing that he would not be

15     arrested during his travel to and from The Hague.  Did he tell you why he

16     felt he needed such protection from being arrested?

17        A.   I didn't know about that.  This is news to me.

18        Q.   Now, you've told us at Transcript 23 that your husband told you

19     that her burns were of the highest degree and her arms were burned, her

20     face, and her hair.  My question to you is, Did your -- did he tell you

21     that her face was so badly burnt that it was difficult to recognise her?

22        A.   When you have burns that have such a high degree, it's very

23     difficult for anyone to recognise.

24        Q.   Now, can I ask you as precisely as you're able to recall for us,

25     what did your husband tell you that Zehra Turjacanin told him about how

Page 4223

 1     she became so seriously burned?

 2        A.   Again, for a third time, she tried to use the gas stove to light

 3     her cigarette.  Her arms caught fire, her hair probably then caught fire,

 4     and her face.

 5        Q.   And to -- so the record captures what you have just demonstrated

 6     to us.  You have leaned over and put your face towards the desk that

 7     you're sitting in front of; correct?  Again, we need an audible answer to

 8     record your testimony.

 9        A.   I apologise.  It was a knee-jerk reaction because the stove is

10     over there, and then you lean over the stove in order to light your

11     cigarette when you run out of matches.  This is something I used to do

12     myself, very often, as a matter of fact.

13        Q.   And when you did it very often, did you ever have any difficulty,

14     or did you ever get burnt or have any close calls with the gas stove?

15             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I would object as to the relevance -- I

16     object as to the relevance of this question.

17             MR. GROOME:  I'll withdraw it, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Move on.

19             MR. GROOME:

20        Q.   Did that story make sense to you?

21        A.   What story do you have in mind?  This story?

22        Q.   This story about suffering such grievous burns when trying to

23     light a cigarette on a gas stove.  Did that make sense to you?

24        A.   I really don't understand your question, try as I might.  What

25     are you trying to achieve?  My husband was no charlatan.  He was a

Page 4224

 1     well-known expert.  He never took things like that lightly.  The woman

 2     turned on the gas stove, and this is what happened.  I think you are

 3     slandering my husband's memory.

 4        Q.   No, ma'am.  It's not my intention to do so.  All I'm asking you

 5     is whether or not that account, whether it made sense to you, or if --

 6     did it make sense to your husband?  Was it an account that sounded

 7     reasonable to you or your husband?

 8             MR. ALARID:  Objection, relevance and calls for speculation.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I tend to agree.

10             Mr. Groome, please move on.

11             MR. GROOME:

12        Q.   Ma'am, let me ask you this:  If it's her intention to light the

13     cigarette on the stove, the cigarette is obviously not lit; correct?

14             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, calls for speculation.  Wholly

15     speculative.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I agree, Mr. Groome.  Ask another question.

17             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, clearly the core portion of her

18     testimony relates to this.  Clearly, my exploring the logic or illogical

19     nature of the story is not speculation.  It's just applying the laws of

20     logic to the account that it's claimed Zehra Turjacanin provided her

21     husband.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I point to line 20.  He's asking about

23     the intentions of Ms. Turjacanin.  I can't see how any witness can

24     testify to the intentions of Zehra Turjacanin except for Zehra Turjacanin

25     itself.

Page 4225

 1             MR. GROOME:  I can broaden that to anyone seeking to light a

 2     cigarette on a stove, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Why don't you try to put it on a more factual

 4     basis.  I do believe that it's permissible for you to try to get an

 5     answer from the witness in relation to a parallel situation, but it all

 6     depends on how the question is put and whether it's a matter that is

 7     within the witness's knowledge.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  Perhaps I've omitted to ask a

 9     foundational question.

10        Q.   Mrs. Vasiljevic, did your husband, Dr. Vasiljevic, believe Zehra

11     Turjacanin, that that was how she sustained these serious burns?

12        A.   One hundred per cent.  I believe everything my husband said, and

13     you should too.  This was certainly true.

14        Q.   Ma'am, this isn't a personal attack on your husband, and that's

15     not the question that I asked you, so I apologise if the interpretation

16     is incorrect.  What I'm asking you is not whether you believe your

17     husband.  I have no qualms with that.  What I'm asking you is did your

18     husband believe Zehra Turjacanin?  Do you understand my question to you?

19             MR. ALARID:  Calls for speculation and otherwise asked and

20     answered.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, please.  Just a minute.  There's

22     an objection.  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

23             MR. ALARID:  It calls for speculation and otherwise has been

24     asked and answered considering she was merely -- she has merely testified

25     as to what her husband told her, but I think it would be speculative to

Page 4226

 1     say whether he believed her or not.

 2             MR. GROOME:  I can adjust the phrasing of the question, Your

 3     Honour.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  I mean, she can say whether her husband

 5     indicated to her that he believed Zehra Turjacanin.

 6             MR. GROOME:

 7        Q.   Ma'am, and that is my question to you.  Did your husband tell you

 8     whether or not he believed the account Zehra Turjacanin provided him

 9     about how she sustained these injuries?

10        A.   Yes, he believed her 100 per cent.  She told him personally.

11     This wasn't hearsay.  She was the one who told him.  Why would he not

12     have believed her?

13        Q.   So your husband told you that he believes that this woman had

14     suffered this accident which caused her these very serious burns;

15     correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   Did your husband ever tell you why he never took that gravely

18     injured woman to the hospital in Visegrad to treat her?

19        A.   He said it, and he explained it to you here as well.  I can

20     repeat that for your sake, but you can also go back to his evidence and

21     read it for yourself, but I can repeat it for you as well.  It's not a

22     problem at all.

23        Q.   As yet, your husband's testimony is not before the Chamber, and

24     I'm the only person in the courtroom who was here when your husband

25     testified.  So would you please tell us what your husband told you was

Page 4227

 1     the reason why he did not bring her to the hospital.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  If counsel could be more specific.  I'm unfamiliar

 3     with any hospital in Visegrad.  Which hospital is being referred to?

 4             MR. GROOME:  It was called the Visegrad Medical Centre.

 5        Q.   Yes.  Can you please tell us what your husband told you or why --

 6     why -- what he told you about why he did not bring her to the Visegrad

 7     Medical Centre.

 8        A.   There is a health centre in Visegrad, not a medical centre.  The

 9     medical centre, there is one at Uzice and one at Foca.  The road to Foca

10     was blocked because of military operations.  One couldn't travel there.

11     As to Uzice, he couldn't take her there or send her there because there

12     were roadblocks along at that road and this woman had no documents.  Our

13     police was there, the Serb police, and when the paramedics take their

14     patients somewhere, they need to have appropriate documents, and she had

15     nothing.  Her safety would have been at risk.  He believed the best

16     course of action for her was to go to Medjedja, to Gorazde, perhaps,

17     where there were Muslims.  Had he taken her to Uzice, her safety would

18     obviously have been at risk.  That's what I read.  He didn't tell me this

19     himself, but I read his statement, and I came across that.

20        Q.   When you said you read his statement, you read his testimony in

21     the Vasiljevic case?  Again, we need an audible answer.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Well, then you will know after having read his testimony in the

24     Vasiljevic case, although he talks about his treatment of Zehra

25     Turjacanin, he never mentions anything about this gas stove, does he?

Page 4228

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Now --

 3        A.   He wasn't asked.  No one asked him about the cause of her

 4     injuries.  They just asked him why he hadn't taken her there.

 5        Q.   Now, ma'am, the -- I don't quite understand what you're telling

 6     us about Uzice.  So is it your evidence that this young woman, seriously

 7     burned, but because she did not have documents, that the police would not

 8     allow an ambulance to take her to a hospital?  Is that your evidence?

 9             MR. ALARID:  Objection.  Calls for speculation, asked and

10     answered.  She explained that the basis of her knowledge was from other

11     testimony.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I will allow her to answer that.

13             Please answer the question.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what would have

15     happened.  He believed that her safety would have been at risk, but it's

16     not for me to say.  That is what he believed.  So now we can hardly talk

17     about what might have happened.  I for one certainly don't know.

18        Q.   And you say that he told you that he advised her to go to

19     Medjedja?  Is that correct?

20        A.   That's what I read in his testimony.

21        Q.   Is it true that he did not take her to the hospital because she

22     was a Muslim?

23        A.   That is true because her life was at risk.  Had he taken her

24     there, she would never have survived.  It was war-time.  There was a war

25     on.  Each Muslim who captured an injured Serb killed him right there and

Page 4229

 1     then.

 2        Q.   Well, so far you've talked about your husband, an ambulance, and

 3     police check-points.  Who would have harmed this young Muslim woman who

 4     was so seriously injured?

 5             MR. ALARID:  Objection.  Calls for speculation.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No.  I think the witness can answer in light of

 7     her knowledge of the prevailing circumstances.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Anyone might have.  I don't know.

 9     Any mother, for example, who had had her son killed by the Muslims.  I

10     don't know.

11        Q.   Well, then, ma'am, let me put this to you.  It seems with a

12     person as seriously burned as this who you say your husband said was

13     unrecognisable, that a very simple solution to this would have been to

14     say to the woman, just use a Serb name and we'll take you to the

15     hospital.  Wouldn't that have been a very simple solution to get this

16     woman the treatment that she needed?

17             MR. ALARID:  Objection.  Relevance and calls for speculation.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  No, I agree, Mr. Groome.  Please ask

19     another question.

20             MR. GROOME:

21        Q.   Ma'am, we have the log-book of patients that were treated on that

22     day as a Prosecution exhibit.  Your husband never recorded his diagnosis

23     and treatment of Ms. Turjacanin anywhere.  Did he ever tell you why he

24     did not?

25        A.   Have you been listening to me, or are you just pretending not to

Page 4230

 1     understand what I'm telling you?  He was called over from the health

 2     centre.  Are you taunting me, sir?  He received a call from the health

 3     centre at Bikavac from the command, and they told him, Here's a woman who

 4     is injured.  He grabbed the medicine.  He called a nurse, and they went

 5     right there.  She told him she was a Muslim, and he did whatever he

 6     could.  Whatever he could do on the spot, he did, and that was that.  I

 7     really have no clue what else you expect me to say.  I believe I've given

 8     you the whole story.  What protocol are you talking about?  This was all

 9     happening out in a meadow.  It's not like she came to the health centre

10     so the whole thing was recorded.  You won't find a doctor working out in

11     the field doing that.  When a patient appears at the health centre, then

12     the patient is recorded in the log-book.  This log-book is not something

13     people carry around across meadows.

14        Q.   Ma'am, you testified at Transcript 24:

15             "I read later on on the internet and in the press about her

16     evidence here at the Tribunal and realised that she had changed her

17     story, which shocked me as being pointless."

18             Am I correct in taking from that testimony that it was only after

19     Zehra Turjacanin gave her evidence in this case this year that you

20     realised she had, in your view, changed her story?

21        A.   I think so.

22        Q.   Well, ma'am, you also said just a page later on Transcript page

23     25 that your husband was shocked when he learned that she changed her

24     story.

25        A.   Of course.  What else?  Do you find that strange?

Page 4231

 1        Q.   Well, what I find contradictory about it, ma'am, is if your

 2     husband died in 2002, that he expressed his shock at the change in her

 3     story, yet you're sworn testimony here is that you did not know about the

 4     change in her story until this very year after she testified.  Can you

 5     explain that contradiction?

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not true.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  I'm trying to find a way of objecting without saying

10     anything that could be misconstrued as leading the witness, but in terms

11     of when her husband found out, given the evidence that has been elicited

12     thus far, I don't think there is a foundation for such speculation --

13     speculative evidence on the part of the witness.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The question is perfectly proper.  Please answer

15     it, Witness.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My husband was here in The Hague in

17     2001.  That's when he gave evidence.  Even before that, ever since the

18     Tribunal started operating and there was a web site up and running, we

19     followed everything that was going on in relation to all of the trials

20     here, each of the persons being tried.  It's not that we found out about

21     this just now this year with she last gave evidence.  This wasn't the

22     first time she was here.  She had testified here already a number of

23     times.  My Rasa was still alive when we read her testimony in 2002 or

24     possibly 2000.  I don't know if it really matters that much.  I can track

25     down the information for you on the internet.  Over at our place in

Page 4232

 1     Serbia, even a 7- or 8-year-old child knows how to use the internet more

 2     than well enough, and everybody knows about these things.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for your explanation, ma'am.  My next question

 4     to you is, if what you are saying is true, that your husband learnt of

 5     her change of story, that he was shocked by it, that what was an accident

 6     had been falsely turned into an accusation against his kum of some of the

 7     most serious crimes committed during the war, why is it, if you know,

 8     would your husband ever tell you why he never publicly contradicted Zehra

 9     Turjacanin's claim that her burns were the result of a crime by Serbs and

10     were not an accident?  Did he ever tell you why he never publicly

11     contradicted that claim?

12        A.   Here is what I'll tell you, and please don't ever again portray

13     my husband in such an unflattering light.  My husband died when he came

14     back from The Hague because he couldn't win the battle for truth and

15     justice.  He went here to prove it, but he couldn't, and when he was back

16     home, that was the reason he died.  This sounded his death knell, and I

17     think all your questions are entirely pointless.  I have no idea what

18     you're trying to achieve.  Are you trying to besmirch his name?  You

19     can't do that.  He is a great man.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness.  Yes, I don't believe that there is any

21     doubt that your husband is a great man.  There is nothing in the

22     questions asked by counsel to suggest that he's trying to besmirch your

23     husband's reputation.  Please calm yourself as best as possible.  I know

24     you loved your husband, and we respect that.  We respect that, but please

25     answer the question which counsel asked.

Page 4233

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've answered the question.  My

 2     husband was here in 2001.  He tried to prove the truth.  He tried to help

 3     justice, and yet he failed.  It is for the sake of his memory and for the

 4     sake of my love for my kum that I am here today.

 5             MR. GROOME:

 6        Q.   Ma'am, I won't trouble you with any more questions.  Thank you

 7     for your answers to my questions.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, just briefly.

10                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

11        Q.   First of all, Ms. Vasiljevic, I'll be brief, just a few

12     questions.  Mr. Groome has raised the issue of the Visegrad health

13     clinic.  In B/C/S, it's the "domostravia" [phoen].  With respect to that

14     facility, does that facility in Visegrad -- in 1992 or even at the

15     present, does that facility have in-patient services?  That is, does it

16     have the capability to provide hospital care to patients?

17        A.   No, it's just an outpatients' clinic.  These are just

18     outpatients' clinics.  For hospitalisation, you need another kind of

19     facility which does not exist in Visegrad.

20        Q.   And you mentioned, I believe, Medjedja and Gorazde.  Is there

21     another type of medical facility over there that would have this type of

22     in-patient hospital care for persons who report there?

23        A.   You mean now or during the war?

24        Q.   During the course of the war.

25        A.   In the course of the war, I don't know what there was in Gorazde.

Page 4234

 1     I don't know what they had, whether they had a hospital or not.  Patients

 2     were sent from Visegrad to Uzice in the Republic of Serbia because our

 3     hospital was in Foca and the roads were cut off.  They were blocked bit

 4     Muslims.  For that reason, all patients were sent to Serbia, those who

 5     needed to be hospitalised, that is.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             [Defence counsel confer]

 8             MR. IVETIC:

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, just to clear up a few minor points.  Madam, did

10     you have an occasion to meet with me in Visegrad, and do you recall when

11     that was?

12        A.   That was this year, a few days after the New Year.

13        Q.   And between that time and today, have you and I also met?

14        A.   No, never.  We didn't even speak on the phone.

15        Q.   I'm somewhat at a loss because I do not have a copy of the

16     statement that you say you signed for Ms. Jelena.  Does that statement

17     have anything additional or different from that that you have testified

18     to here today under oath as a witness in the defence of Milan Lukic?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   On behalf of my client and the entire Defence team, I thank you

21     for having the courage to come here and testify, and I thank you for your

22     testimony.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, we have no further questions for this

24     witness.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic, I take it you're --

Page 4235

 1             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  No questions for this

 2     witness.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, that concludes your evidence, and we

 4     thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it.  You may now leave.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The next witness, please.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, the next witness has been granted

 9     protective measures, MLD7.  I'm told we need a pause for the equipment

10     for the protective measures to be put in place.

11                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  All right.  We will adjourn for 15 minutes.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, before it gets -- it gets away from me

14     to the next witness, in light of the witness's evidence that she did sign

15     a statement before a court, I would renew my request for a copy of that

16     statement, and I may be seeking an application to recall the witness.

17             I would also ask Mr. Alarid to please check with Jelena Rasic and

18     other members of his staff to ensure that all statements that she or

19     other members of the staff had part in generating are properly disclosed

20     to the Prosecution.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Thank you.  It doesn't call for any

22     response, Mr. Alarid.

23             MR. ALARID:  That's what I figured, Judge.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Okay.

25                           --- Break taken at 5.02 p.m.

Page 4236

 1                           --- On resuming at 5.27 p.m.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 5     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6                           WITNESS:  WITNESS MLD7

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We won't take another break before the end of

 9     the day's proceedings.  Mr. Ivetic.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Before I begin, I would

11     like to bring one matter to the Court's attention.  The witness this

12     morning -- actually, VWS first and then the witness this morning informed

13     me he does have a medical condition that relates to his kidneys where he

14     gets a sharp pain in his kidneys, and that requires him to stand up and

15     walk around and sometimes going to the restroom, and he indicated to me

16     that if he was experiencing such pains he would make some kind of hand

17     gesture to alert myself and everyone else in the courtroom the same, so I

18     just ask the Court's indulgence in that matter to --

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's fine, Mr. Ivetic.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Mr. -- I'm sorry.  Mr. Cole

21     is on his feet.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

23             MR. COLE:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  Could I raise a matter now

24     rather than leaving it until the end.  Your Honours indicated we're going

25     to go all the way through.

Page 4237

 1             Now, this is to avoid any problems that we may have in the

 2     future.  The OTP received notification of a list of documents to be used

 3     by the Defence for this witness, MLD7, at 12.55 p.m. today.  Now, the

 4     order of the Trial Chamber on the 9th of July, the Scheduling Order,

 5     you'll recall, Your Honour, requires notification of exhibits to be used

 6     in examination-in-chief basically at least by 4.00 p.m. on the working

 7     day prior.

 8             Now, I actually have brought up the Scheduling Order on the

 9     screen.  The order itself is directed to the Prosecution and makes no

10     reference specifically, I note, to documents to be used by the Defence

11     during examination-in-chief, but in my submission the similar provision

12     should apply, and what happens is if they don't, it seems we get very

13     late notification.  So I'm going to ask, sir, if the Trial Chamber would

14     be prepared to apply the order of the 9th of July in respect of

15     notification of documentary exhibits during examination-in-chief to the

16     Defence, as well, so that we can have the benefit of advanced notice of

17     documents to be used, and it will avoid, I would hope, late notice in

18     future.  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, it certainly applies, Mr. Cole, and I

20     don't believe either Mr. Alarid or Mr. Ivetic would be saying that it

21     doesn't apply to them.

22             If the order itself doesn't say so, that is clearly an omission,

23     but it does apply to the Defence.  It's a standard order that is made in

24     trials, and it seems that inadvertently the reference to the Defence has

25     been omitted.  But I notice you're not taking a point, then, that you're

Page 4238

 1     not able to carry on or anything like that, and for that I'm grateful,

 2     and we will see to it that it is made expressly clear that the order does

 3     apply to the Defence.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  And I can say for the Defence, we take it as

 5     applying to the Defence if that assists.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.  Yes.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.  Very well, sir.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 9        Q.   Mr. MLD7 - I have to refer you to by that name as you are a

10     protected witness - I would ask first that you be shown the pseudonym

11     ship, which I would ask the assistance of the court staff to present to

12     you.  Once you receive this sheet, sir, I would ask you to take a look at

13     the document, and without mentioning your name in public session, if you

14     could just let me know if the information contained therein is correct as

15     to your full name and as to your date of birth, and again, we have to

16     wait for that document to make its way to you, so I would beg your

17     patience.

18        A.   I agree.  This information is correct.

19        Q.   In that case, sir, I would ask you to please initial the

20     document.

21             MR. IVETIC:  And once it is done, Your Honours, I would tender

22     this document under seal as the next available 1D exhibit.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D99 under seal, Your Honours.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Madam Court Officer.

25        Q.   Sir, if we could begin.  If you could please tell us what

Page 4239

 1     ethnicity you are.

 2        A.   I'm a Serb.

 3        Q.   And without giving us any details that might give away your

 4     identity, if you could tell us just the city and country wherein you now

 5     reside.

 6        A.   In Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Visegrad.

 7        Q.   And did you also reside in that same locale in 1992?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, the next few -- the next questions I

11     have deal with matters that might -- might have the witness's identity

12     revealed if discussed it open session, so I would ask to go in private

13     session.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4240











11  Pages 4240-4252 redacted. Private session.















Page 4253

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Mr. MLD7, now we're in open session so, again, I would caution

14     you when giving your answers to my questions not to give any specific

15     details that might reveal your identity, as the testimony now is subject

16     to public dissemination.

17             With respect to the death of Vlatko Tripkovic, first of all,

18     could you tell us who Vlatko Tripkovic was in the structure of the armed

19     forces of the Republika Srpska?

20        A.   The late Vlatko Tripkovic was a company commander.  We called it

21     Kocarinska Lijestinska [phoen].  I think in terms of structure, it was

22     the 1st Company.

23        Q.   And was this a -- was this a unit under the -- strike that.

24             Under which command, under which structure of the armed forces

25     did this unit fall under?

Page 4254

 1        A.   The Visegrad Brigade, which at the time was called the 2nd Light

 2     Visegrad Brigade.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And if you could now focus on the time-period -- pardon

 4     me.  Strike that.

 5             Was there any military action that was underway when

 6     Mr. Tripkovic -- Commander Tripkovic perished?

 7        A.   It was my team.  We were intercepting Muslim communications at

 8     the time, and we had arrived at the conclusion that they were grouping to

 9     some extent along the Medjedja-Zepa road.  Medjedja is the general area

10     and then on to Gorazde and Zepa, just in case you didn't know.  So the

11     first estimates were that there might be an attack on the isolated Serb

12     villages where there were Serbs remaining at this point in time, few, if

13     any:  Kocari, Gornja/Donja Lijeska, Han Brdo, Kopito.  There were a few

14     of them there, and then the conclusion was that one should step up

15     defence measures over there and dispatch a unit there to surprise them so

16     that we might surprise them as opposed to the other way around, them

17     surprising us.

18        Q.   And sir, with respect to that intelligence or information that

19     you had, did the army command in Visegrad undertake any orders or actions

20     relative to the same, and if so, what were they?

21        A.   A group was formed comprising -- I can't say exactly, maybe

22     between 40 and 50 men who were prepared to go and do some reconnaissance,

23     set up some ambushes and generally be at the ready because we didn't know

24     where they would come from or where they would pass through.  It was just

25     to make sure that all our forces were at Visegrad but send them further

Page 4255

 1     up so that we might operate from many different directions, and that's

 2     why this group of between 40 and 50 people were dispatched to that area

 3     where we were expecting their breakthrough, possibly their attack.

 4        Q.   And with respect -- with respect to that group of 40 to 50

 5     persons, what structures were these individuals drawn from?  Were they

 6     all from one structure, or were there multiple structures represented?

 7     When I say structures, I mean organs of the Defence forces.

 8        A.   They were men mostly who were prepared to walk a little more and

 9     to fight.  Those who were on the young side, members of the Brigade, the

10     reserve police forces, they formed a group in order to be dispatched

11     there to this area where operations by the enemy were being expected.

12        Q.   With respect to these persons, these forces, who was leading or

13     in charge of the military aspect, and who was leading or in charge of the

14     police contingent?

15        A.   As this was the late Vlatko's native area and he had been a

16     company commander already, I think he commanded that unit, and then there

17     was another platoon commander, the late Vidakovic, Perica Markovic.  It

18     was one of these two.  They deputised for each other depending on the

19     point in time, but I think at this time they were both around.

20        Q.   And did you have occasion to personally visually eye-witness the

21     personnel that were being assembled for this mission?

22        A.   Every time men assembled drew a certain amount of curiosity and

23     anxiety when seeing men off.  They started from this training-ground, and

24     I was 20 or 30 metres away from there.  I saw them leave.  I think there

25     was a single combat vehicle plus a number of passenger vehicles because

Page 4256

 1     that was all we had at the time.  That was all the equipment we had.

 2        Q.   Do you recall any of the names of the other individuals that were

 3     part of the police contingent that was setting out for this task?

 4        A.   In addition to what I've mentioned, I think there was also Tomic;

 5     Spasoje was certainly there; Perica Markovic, I'm sure about that.  Some

 6     men had already got into those cars.  Some were singing, some were

 7     screaming, but they were moving along.

 8        Q.   From which polygon?

 9        A.   I use the expression "training ground," but this actually used to

10     be a parking-lot to be used by the motel's guests, big enough to hold

11     about 50 passenger vehicles, so this was the place they started out from.

12        Q.   And do you have -- do you have knowledge of where Milan Lukic was

13     on that day?

14        A.   I remember that he was there.  He was the most cheerful of all

15     those who were leaving on this military operation of sorts.

16        Q.   And now, when this group set out, did your command retain the

17     ability to maintain radio communications with this group the entire time

18     that it was engaged on the region that you've described, the Zepa,

19     Kopito, Lijeska, Sjemec region?

20        A.   What was a problem for us was the sources of electricity for our

21     radio devices, so we would do the work manually and connect our radio

22     devices to the batteries of these passenger vehicles, and the hub was the

23     car being used by the late Vlatko Tripkovic, the radio device in question

24     being RU12.  The duty officer would always be at the hub, always

25     receiving communication because we had the largest batteries there to

Page 4257

 1     provide power.  All those out in the field would normally report back in

 2     order to receive from us whatever was required, but they could always

 3     call because the hub was always stationary.

 4        Q.   With respect to the RU12 communications device that was in the

 5     car being used by the late Vlatko Tripkovic, did your command have

 6     occasion to have those radio communications interrupted?  If so, when and

 7     if you could describe the circumstances surrounding the same.

 8        A.   Well, there was a disruption when the late Vlatko Tripkovic,

 9     after the unit had moved, was on his way to the briefing, and he was also

10     on his way to get some supplies because I think he was reckoning that

11     they would be staying around for a while.  On his way back, he was

12     ambushed.  He was killed.  The car was set alight, and as a result the

13     group remained without any of its communications.

14        Q.   Now, first of all, with respect to that group that remained

15     without communications, how long in terms of days did that group remain

16     cut off of regular communications with your command?

17        A.   They never again established a direct link with us.  We tried to

18     establish a link to what I think was the forward command post of the

19     Rogatica Brigade, and this was behind them.  It was through them that we

20     established some sort of messenger service.  We didn't have any

21     communications equipment left, so they allowed us to use theirs.

22        Q.   And what instructions or directives were communicated to the

23     forward command post of the Rogatica Brigade to be communicated or

24     relayed to the forces at Kopito via messenger, if you know.

25        A.   It was the death of Vlatko Tripkovic and the two other men, and

Page 4258

 1     this became known about town.  We knew that there was a communications

 2     breakdown.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last part

 4     of the last sentence.  The interpreter didn't understand.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, the interpreter's asking you to repeat

 6     the last part of the last sentence.  I think you said:  "We knew that

 7     there was a communications breakdown."

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The death of Vlatko Tripkovic, this

 9     is something that we learned about because he had been killed near our

10     previous permanent positions where people were watching houses.  It

11     wasn't a mobile unit.  That was another kilometre behind our last

12     permanent line.  We didn't know how many of them were there.  We knew

13     that there had been an incursion by a rather large group.  It wasn't safe

14     to move about because we drove around all the time, and that's how most

15     of us were killed until we knew better.

16             Word was sent through to the command of the Rogatica Brigade to

17     get in touch with our unit over there, that there were no communications,

18     no links between us and them, and that someone should be sent over, and

19     then further actions would be agreed with them, and an action should be

20     coordinated between our unit, the Rogatica unit, and the unit from

21     Visegrad that had cleared the area and made sure the road was now safe.

22        Q.   And when was it foreseen or planned for that action to take place

23     to make sure that the road was safe, if you know in terms of days or

24     date, any information you can provide on that matter.

25        A.   I don't know the exact day, but I remember the late Vlatko's

Page 4259

 1     death, the day on which it occurred.  There was some lads, who were ready

 2     to go, and they were out of town already, so it probably would have taken

 3     them another day to get a new group ready, would go out and reconnoiter.

 4     We called this combing the ground just to make sure who was when.  First,

 5     you get to one elevation, and then you realise that it's not there

 6     because all of us who were back in Visegrad, that was the lie of the

 7     land, and we were all out, and had we all gone out we couldn't have

 8     covered the road, and we couldn't have made it safe for passage, things

 9     being normal and all that.

10        Q.   And so -- and so, again, you indicated that it would take a day

11     for the new group to get ready.  When was the action to clear the road to

12     take place?

13        A.   It should have been only the 13th right away when this happened

14     involving Vlatko, but progress was slow.  It was a tragedy to lose young

15     lads like them.  We didn't know what or who was where and who was waiting

16     hidden behind the next tree further down the road.  It took another one

17     or two days, communications were still down, until we had realised that

18     this must have been some sort of group, a sabotage group or something,

19     just passing through because they used the same road, the

20     Visegrad-Rogatica road, and that there was this intersection in no man's

21     land, the two roads intersecting the Gorazde-Zepa road.  We set up

22     ambushes for them, and they set up ambushes for us, and for a long time

23     this remained no man's land, a 10-kilometre stretch at least of that

24     road.

25        Q.   And was the action actually carried out and completed so as to

Page 4260

 1     enable the forces to meet and use the road?

 2        A.   Yes.  I think on or about the 15th, all this was completed.  I

 3     don't even think there were any combat operations earlier on on the 13th,

 4     but I'm not positive.  There was perhaps a sporadic exchange of fire.

 5     Were there any dead out in the woods, I don't know, but I think by this

 6     time at least for the previous seven days we had not suffered any

 7     casualties in terms of one of our men getting killed.

 8        Q.   So then is it your testimony that that operation was completed on

 9     the 15th of what month?

10        A.   The 15th of June.  Vlatko was killed on the 13th, the 14th, and

11     then the 15th the whole thing was back under control by our forces.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I don't remember if in -- asking you earlier if

13     you had identified for us how it was that you found out or knew that --

14     that Commander Tripkovic was the one who had perished, and the other

15     individuals whom you had -- whom you had named earlier, Novica Savic, and

16     I forget the other individual's name.  I believe it was Mirkovic.  Zeljko

17     or Zarko.  I can't remember the first name.

18        A.   Veljko.  Novica Savic and Veljko Mirkovic.  Novica was the

19     operative in the staff.  Veljko Mirkovic was his escort.

20             I explained to you that at that time every Serbian village was

21     guarded.  It was local villagers who guarded the villages strengthened by

22     five or ten men, and these were mostly guards around the houses.  From

23     the closest guarded Serbian village we could see flames, we could hear

24     shooting, and we expected trouble.  Somebody went there to see the news

25     spread through the town from mouth to mouth.  I still feel bad when I

Page 4261

 1     think of it.  The whole town knew that they had been killed, and I knew,

 2     too, in the same way.

 3        Q.   And had the bodies been recovered?

 4        A.   Yes.  They were charred, and they were disfigured.  The car was

 5     set on fire.  I had many other obligations, so unfortunately I did not

 6     attend the funeral, but I observed from a hill, and I think all of

 7     Visegrad was there at that funeral.

 8                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I think that's the conclusion of my

10     direct examination.

11             Mr. MLD7, I thank you.  The counsel on the other side and Your

12     Honours might have questions for you.  I might have questions later on,

13     but at this point in time I thank you for your testimony, sir.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Cole.

16             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cole:

18        Q.   Now, my name is Cole, and I'm going to be asking you questions on

19     behalf of the Prosecution.

20             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, could I ask that we go into closed

21     session.  I have some particular questions that would require that.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4262











11  Pages 4262-4263 redacted. Private session.















Page 4264

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 9             MR. COLE:

10        Q.   MLD7, do you have a good memory generally?

11        A.   I'm satisfied with the way my memory serves me.

12        Q.   Do you have a good memory for dates?

13        A.   Well, I can remember events a hundred per cent, but with dates I

14     have to calculate.

15        Q.   Now, you were living in Visegrad almost continually during the

16     Bosnian conflict over the years from 1992, weren't you?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   And prior to the war in Bosnia, you can confirm that the

19     occupants of Visegrad, the majority of occupants were Bosnian Muslim,

20     weren't they?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   And today, the vast majority of the occupants of Visegrad are

23     Bosnian Serbs; correct?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   In fact, would it be over 90 per cent of those now living in

Page 4265

 1     Visegrad are Bosnian Serbs?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   And you can confirm that many innocent Bosnian Muslim civilians

 4     were slaughtered right in Visegrad itself during the war in 1992;

 5     correct?

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Objection, Your Honour.  This question is without

 7     foundation, speculation.  I consider it to be a form of -- it's -- it's a

 8     loaded question, if I can bring back to -- what the Prosecution was so

 9     apt to quote throughout this case.  It's a loaded-type question.  It's

10     improper to ask a witness.  It's beyond the scope of any direct, and it's

11     meant I think to intimidate or to try and harass.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, are you in a position to say whether

13     innocent Bosnian Muslim civilians were slaughtered in Visegrad during the

14     war in 1992?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am convinced that no one who was

16     innocent was made a victim.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, there you have it.

18             MR. COLE:

19        Q.   Well, can I ask you this:  Can you confirm that many Bosnian

20     Muslim -- Muslim civilians were killed in Visegrad during the war in

21     1992?

22             MR. IVETIC:  Again, we have a foundation issue, and it just --

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The witness can answer that from his knowledge.

24     Let us -- let us get on with the trial.

25             Can you say whether many Bosnian Muslim civilians were killed in

Page 4266

 1     Visegrad during the war in 1992?  That's a question of fact.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say that many are registered

 3     as missing, but whether they were killed in Visegrad, well, it didn't

 4     happen in the town because they weren't there, but that they got killed

 5     outside the town, probably yes.

 6             MR. COLE:

 7        Q.   Come on, MLD7.  Many Muslims were killed, in fact, weren't they,

 8     on the old bridge in Visegrad, a hundred metres from your home during

 9     1992.  You're aware of that, aren't you?

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Again?

11             MR. IVETIC:  Asked and answered, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Answer the question.  Let us know whether the

13     witness is in a position to provide the information.  If he's not, he's

14     not.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you asked me whether I could

16     see the bridge, and I told you I couldn't, but I wasn't at home either.

17     I have to say that I used to be indoors for 24 hours at a time, a small

18     room 5 by 5, overwhelmed with work.  So they would often bring food into

19     that room for me, and I even slept there, and I never went out for long

20     periods.  So you couldn't see the bridge from there, from where I was,

21     actually, at the time.

22             MR. COLE:

23        Q.   Sir, whether you can see the bridge or not, you were living in

24     Visegrad in 1992 and thereafter, and are you claiming you don't know what

25     was going on in Visegrad during the war because you were in a room

Page 4267

 1     somewhere?

 2        A.   What went on, that's a broad concept.  I knew a lot of things,

 3     but believe me or not, I heard few stories, few rumours, and I wasn't

 4     interested.  It was my way of resisting the war, doing what I had to do,

 5     what I knew how to do, and what I wanted to do.  So I was completely

 6     committed to communications.  Nobody ever called me in four years without

 7     receiving a reply.  I was commended more than once for this, and my

 8     biggest reward is that not a single soldier ever came to say, Where were

 9     you, I was looking for you.  Whenever there was a call, I responded.  For

10     me to be able to do that, there was no social gathering in my room,

11     people dropping in to chat, and so on and so forth.  I needed peace and

12     quiet in order to carry on my work.

13        Q.   So you're saying you were so busy that you've got no idea about

14     Muslim civilians being killed in Visegrad in 1992.  Is that what you're

15     saying?

16             MR. ALARID:  Objection.  Asked and answered, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Next question, Mr. Cole.

18             MR. COLE:

19        Q.   How far was this office that you had from the square in Visegrad?

20        A.   For a time, I was in that office when the Brigade was being

21     formed.  As Visegrad is in a valley, for my communications centre to

22     function properly, I moved it to the hill overlooking Visegrad,

23     overlooking Vukovo Brdo in the area of the village of Nikitovici, and I

24     was there for two years without interruption because it was not possible

25     to establish communications with many parts of the municipality unless

Page 4268

 1     you were at a higher altitude, so that --

 2        Q.   I'm just going to have to --

 3        A.   -- very soon.

 4        Q.    I'm going to have you to interrupt you and just ask you please

 5     to listen to the question because time is limited.

 6             Now, let's do it this way:  In June of 1992, where was your

 7     office?

 8        A.   At Bikavac.

 9        Q.   How far from the town square and the old bridge?

10        A.   200 or 300 metres as the crow flies, about a hundred and fifty

11     that way.

12        Q.   And in June 1992, where were the police headquarters in Visegrad?

13        A.   The police in Visegrad was where it was until half a year ago,

14     near Rzsavski Bridge very close by.  My house is separated from the

15     police station only by the Rzsavski Bridge.

16        Q.   Is this the bridge known as the old bridge or another bridge?

17        A.   That's another bridge.  The old bridge is across the Drina, but

18     it was the Rzav river that separated us.

19        Q.   Do you know about a group of people being herded into a house or

20     into houses in Visegrad in June 1992, being barricaded in and the houses

21     being set on fire and the people inside being burned to death, 60 to 70

22     people at a time?  Do you know about that?

23        A.   I heard about that, but I don't believe it.

24        Q.   So who did you hear about it from?

25        A.   When I was at home, my mother asked me.  She said, Son, I heard

Page 4269

 1     that from the women; did this happen?  And I said, Mother, I don't

 2     believe that; what fool would do something like that?

 3        Q.   So when did you hear about it?

 4        A.   Well, if you were to shoot me here, I couldn't tell you, but

 5     probably -- well, I really don't know.  Quite honestly, I don't know.

 6     It's very hard for me to link that up with any sort of time.  I didn't

 7     believe it, so I wasn't interested in it.

 8        Q.   It's a pretty horrific situation, isn't it, 60 or 70 people

 9     burned to death in a house?  Isn't it the sort of thing that you might

10     remember when you first heard it?

11        A.   It is horrific, but I tried to evade horrific things as best I

12     could.  I didn't want to hear about them, so I didn't ask around.  I

13     didn't check.  I didn't investigate.  I simply found it easier if it did

14     happen for me not to know that it had happened because if a man were to

15     think about all these things, it would be really terrible.  So the best

16     thing is to simply -- just to do your job and not think about anything

17     else.

18        Q.   Well, I hope you can give the Court some idea when you first

19     heard about people being burned to death in houses in Visegrad.  So can

20     you give us a month and a year?

21             MR. ALARID:  Objection, asked and answered.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He has answered that already, Mr. Alarid?

23             MR. ALARID:  I believe it was put in the context of more general,

24     and it's Mr. Cole attempting to be specific, but I think he stated he

25     didn't know exactly.

Page 4270

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can you give us the month and the year, Witness?

 2     Please answer.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't.  I really can't.  I give

 4     you my word.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole.

 6             MR. COLE:

 7        Q.   If we could make it perhaps a little broader.  That's asking for

 8     a month and a year.  Can you give us a year when you first heard about

 9     people being burned to death, 60 to 70 at a time, in Visegrad?

10        A.   I think it was that first war-time year, 1992, when people spoke

11     about it.  I said quite sincerely that I don't believe it.  I didn't

12     believe it then; I don't believe it now.  As for months, I really

13     wouldn't be able to tell you.

14        Q.   And as you sit there, do you know the locations where it was said

15     that these people were burned to death in houses?

16        A.   I know people said -- I think the name of the street was

17     Pionirska Street, I'm not sure, and that it was close to the school, that

18     it was in that part of town, opposite Bikavac.

19        Q.   So have I got this right?  You understand that one of these

20     houses was in Pionirska Street in Visegrad?

21        A.   The rumours were that it was that house, but let me repeat, I

22     don't know.  I couldn't tell you the month.  Whether it -- well, it was

23     1992 when those stories went 'round, but whether it was before May or

24     after May -- it had to be after May, but it's very hard to orient myself

25     about that event.

Page 4271

 1        Q.   Yes.  Please listen to the question.  Is it your testimony that

 2     you understand one of the scenes of the house fires was in Pionirska

 3     Street?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I don't believe he's testified as to

 5     there being more than one yet unless counsel has asked him a question.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Did you put to him that there was more than one

 7     or the fire?

 8             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, he mentioned both Pionirska and Bikavac.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, he mentioned it occurred in Pionirska,

10     which is the area opposite from Bikavac, so he's clearly locating the one

11     location in Pionirska, and he said then afterwards at page 93, line 1,

12     the rumours were it was that house.  So I think that the question of

13     Mr. Cole of, You understand the house was Pionirska, has been answered.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just reformulate the question, Mr. Cole.

15             MR. COLE:  Yes.

16        Q.   We'll do it this way, MLD7:  How many fires are you aware of in

17     Visegrad where a large number of persons were incinerated inside

18     according to information available?

19        A.   I only heard them talking about Pionirska Street.  As to how many

20     houses were burnt, hundreds were burnt down.

21        Q.   Well, there weren't hundreds of houses with 60 or 70 people in

22     them, were there?

23             MR. ALARID:  Objection, calls for speculation, asked and

24     answered.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ask another question, Mr. Cole.

Page 4272

 1             MR. COLE:

 2        Q.   How many houses have you heard were burned down with a large

 3     number of people, maybe 60 or 70 people, in Visegrad?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Asked and answered at page 93, line 23 to 24, Your

 5     Honours.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He has said, I think hundreds were burnt down.

 7     That's in line 23, Mr. Cole.

 8             MR. COLE:  I'm asking the witness how many with large numbers of

 9     people.  The answer he gave at that line is totally ambiguous, and it may

10     be that those houses had no persons inside them.  I'm asking him, Your

11     Honour, about houses with large numbers of --

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Witness, answer that.  The question is how

13     many houses with large numbers of people did you hear to have been burnt

14     down?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about Pionirska.  I did say

16     that.

17             MR. COLE:

18        Q.   And just to make it clear, is that the only house that you have

19     heard that was burnt down with a large number of people inside in

20     Visegrad?

21        A.   Yes, certainly, the only house which based on the accounts that I

22     heard had been burned with people in it.

23        Q.   Now, you made a comment before that you must have heard about

24     this house burning down sometime after May in 1992.  Why would it need to

25     be after May 1992?

Page 4273

 1        A.   Because I joined the army in May, and I remember that I was with

 2     the army when I heard the stories.  To be perfectly honest, I have no

 3     idea about the month or the date, but I know that I started with the army

 4     in May, and when I heard this I was a soldier already.  That is my only

 5     reference point 15 years on.

 6        Q.   Now, you testified earlier that you moved your office from the

 7     location not far from the square in Visegrad.  When did you move to the

 8     new -- the new location?  Was it in the village of Nikitovici?

 9        A.   Above Vukovo Brdo, Nikitovici general area, yes.  One of the

10     centres, and you must know that this was a radio hub, but the telephone

11     operators were still at the post office in the town centre.  The

12     teleprinters were still at the SUP building, and those people in charge

13     of maintaining radio links to the units on the ground were at this

14     elevation because the best link could be established with an open line of

15     optical visibility.

16        Q.   Excuse me, MLD7.  Could I just ask, please, if you would listen

17     to the question.  I wanted to know the date you moved offices, and you're

18     giving me an explanation that isn't in line with that question.  Just a

19     date.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I object to the mischaracterisation.

21     The question asked is what it in the village of Nikitovici, so if you

22     want to -- if you want to have clear answers, don't ask compound

23     questions, counsel, is what I would say.  It's clear that the gentleman

24     was answering that question, so to characterise it as if the witness is

25     avoiding a question is, I believe, improper.  It's not supported by the

Page 4274

 1     record, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, let's have the answer to the question.

 3     Can you re-ask the question?

 4             MR. COLE:

 5        Q.   Yes.  When did you move your office from the one location to the

 6     other as you've described?  When?

 7        A.   I think it was in August.  It was summertime.  I'm sure about

 8     that.  I was in a trailer under a slab.  It still wasn't cold, which

 9     means it wasn't autumn yet, radio communication.

10        Q.   What year was it?

11        A.   1992.

12        Q.   All right.  We'll move on to another topic.  Now, you're here

13     today testifying on behalf of Milan Lukic; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Would you describe Milan Lukic as a friend yours, or how would

16     you describe him?

17        A.   I wouldn't mind him considering me a friend.

18        Q.   How would you describe your relationship with him?

19        A.   He's a cheerful man, willing to help my people and his people.

20     He was young at the time, full of spirit, joyful.  We needed men like him

21     to shake us up and keep us in good spirits and try to rid us of all that

22     negativity.

23        Q.   Are you or your wife related to Milan Lukic or his wife?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   When did you last see Milan Lukic in person?

Page 4275

 1        A.   In 1998, I think, and then as certain events occurred, it may

 2     have been also 1999.  I'm sure about 1998.  I'm not positive about 1999.

 3        Q.   So when and where -- sorry, where was it exactly that you saw

 4     Milan Lukic in person?

 5        A.   I had my own private business.  I built Milan Lukic's car, for

 6     example.  I had a workshop because been fired when I tried to right some

 7     wrongs, and then a court ruling gave me back my work back in 2000.  So it

 8     must have been in 1998 that I last saw him.  As to any later date, I'm

 9     not sure I could really make a reliable calculation.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole, last question and then we'll break.

11             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Now, when did you last -- when did you or your wife last speak

13     with Mr. Lukic on the phone?

14        A.   I didn't speak to Milan Lukic.  I don't think so.  As for my

15     wife, I think she would have said.  I don't think she did either.

16             MR. COLE:  If I could just clarify one matter there, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Just to be clear, MLD7, are you saying since you last saw Milan

18     Lukic in person, you have not spoken to him on the phone, and you're not

19     aware that your wife has; is that correct?

20        A.   To this very day I haven't, and I don't think my wife has either.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Cole.

22             MR. COLE:  Yes, thank you.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We are adjourned until 8.50 tomorrow morning.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Did you want to give the instruction to the witness?

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, we are adjourning now, and you will

Page 4276

 1     return tomorrow morning.  In the interim, you are not to discuss your

 2     evidence with anybody.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.12 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day

 6                           of January, 2009, at 8.50 a.m.