Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4404

 1                           Friday, 23 January 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.56 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic, you have a matter to raise.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I have a matter as a preliminary

 7     matter in conjunction with the Prosecution's request and Your Honours'

 8     instructions for us to inquire if there are additional statements that

 9     perhaps our investigators or persons working in the field had taken,

10     during proofing last night I uncovered that this witness (redacted) has -

11     I wouldn't call it a statement - but a three-four line summary that he

12     did sign and during the period we uncovered three or so more of those

13     which I bring to the attention only because of the fact that the witness

14     is coming to this court, otherwise I would have got translations and

15     given them all to the Prosecution outside of court.

16             But I have prepared a draft translation of this short, not even

17     half a page, quarter page, what's identified as written statement of the

18     witness who is coming into court this morning; and I've just been able to

19     e-mail that now this morning to Mr. Van Hooydonk, so I hope he's able to

20     pull that up and provide that to Ms. Sartorio, and I apologise for

21     this -- for the manner in which this is done.  This obviously came as a

22     surprise to us, but we do want to try to fully comply with the Court's

23     directions and, therefore, went through the diligent efforts to locate

24     these others, and they're all really -- I think once they're translated

25     the parties will see the -- by their nature they're not very detailed.

Page 4405

 1     They're more summaries of -- that happen to be signed.  They're not

 2     really detailed.  Fact witness statements as we have come to know the

 3     term, but I think they do fall obviously under the ambit of what we do

 4     need to disclose to the other party and that is what we're intending to

 5     do.

 6             So with respect to the other such documents, I have hard copies

 7     that I can provide to the Prosecution but I don't know if they want them

 8     now or later I can provide them at the break but I did already e-mail

 9     the -- the one relating to this first witness MLD18, who is scheduled to

10     be the witness this morning.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Thank you, yes.

12             Mr. Groome.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, while I appreciate Mr. Ivetic's candour

14     again this is just one event in a series of -- of events where the

15     Prosecution has not been provided with the material that it's entitled to

16     under the law.  We do not have the capacity in this courtroom to

17     instantly print -- print this document.  If Mr. Ivetic does have a copy,

18     I appreciate it be given to Ms. Sartorio so that she can be reading it

19     while the witness is testifying.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Do you have a hard copy?

21             MR. IVETIC:  Not of the translation.  The Defence doesn't have

22     printer here, and the printer's in the Defence room, we're unable to

23     print the document.  I could e-mail it perhaps to --

24             MR. GROOME:  Mr. --

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can the --

Page 4406

 1             MR. GROOME:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The court deputy, are you able to -- right.

 3     Yes.  We'll ask the usher to go out.

 4             MR. GROOME:  [Overlapping speakers] ... to have it printed.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Ms. Sartorio just tells me now though that after

 7     looking at briefly it appears that it has some material differences from

 8     the 65 ter summary, so again, Your Honour, we're here.  We're trying to

 9     prepare, I mean, we have an important role to play in helping --

10     assisting the Chamber in ascertaining the truth in this matter; and we're

11     put at a very serious disadvantage when things like this do happen.

12             Your Honour, there's another matter that I would like to raise.

13     Yesterday afternoon, we received the witness list for next week's

14     witnesses.  Two of the witnesses on that list are not witnesses that were

15     named on the witness list, filed the 5th of January.

16             While I appreciate the Defence is entitled to submit a motion to

17     amend their list I have not received one as of yet and I am concerned

18     that even if we do, before the close of business today, receive a motion

19     to amend their witness list, it will simply be impossible for us to

20     respond and for the Chamber to reach a decision prior to the time the

21     Defence wants to call these witnesses.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Which is when?

23             MR. GROOME:  They're schedule for next week.  They were notified

24     for next week.  I would --

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Just a minute.  When are these

Page 4407

 1     witnesses --

 2             MR. ALARID:  Basically, Your Honour, we will be filing something

 3     a little bit midmorning.  We stayed up late last night, trying to

 4     reorganise the case, and I think this is the sort of reassessment that's

 5     going on based on our inability in the field to talk to some of these

 6     fragmented witnesses that we'd hoped to call at the request of Mr. Lukic.

 7     And that's a tug-of-war that I've had to go through with an attorney with

 8     my client as he wants as many people as he knows out in the field to be

 9     contacted and brought in.

10             But I, as an attorney, prefer to deal with this from a criminal

11     law perspective in the witnesses we amended were simply an interpreter

12     and one of the main investigators.  So as opposed to having to get

13     someone through both of them are investigators actually at some point.

14     But the reality is we think it's more prudent to do some of the

15     cross-examination of the investigative kind of processes that went on in

16     this case to assess the crimes and with people that of course are in the

17     building and on staff.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  All right, but you're going to file

19     something later today.

20             MR. ALARID:  Yes.  We tried to get it done, Your Honour, but we

21     had it in draft this morning.  We've been up since 6.00 this morning it's

22     really hard --

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Get it to us today.  We'll consider it.  You

24     know, of course, you have to show good cause.

25             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour.  We hope to do that.  But that's

Page 4408

 1     where we're at right now.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'd also want to correct any

 3     misapprehension that Mr. Alarid has.  One of the investigators, not in

 4     the building, he has left the employ of the Office of the Prosecutor.  He

 5     is currently in Phnom Penh, Cambodia, helping prepare the trial that they

 6     are about to start in the coming weeks.

 7             I have no idea about his availability.  I have not spoken to him

 8     since he left here.  I also note in the list of exhibits that are

 9     intended to be used with him it says and I quote, "All OTP statements in

10     which he has participated in taking," now if that's understood as it's

11     literally written here, Your Honour, Mr. Caine was an investigator for, I

12     think, 7 or 8 years here, worked on the Kosovo case, worked on many cases

13     I only imagine that is dozens upon dozens of statements, many of which

14     may have security issue --

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That obviously would not be granted if --

16             MR. ALARID:  No and that was [Overlapping speakers] ...

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  [Overlapping speakers] ... for all OTP

18     statements.

19             MR. ALARID:  No, as a matter of fact, it was just the ones he

20     touched.  There were six of them that he touched in this case, Your

21     Honour, that would be relevant.  That's what I meant.  I apologise to

22     Mr. Groome for being too broad.

23             MR. GROOME:  Okay.  We'll respond when we receive the

24     application.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Let the witness be brought in.

Page 4409

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2                           WITNESS:  WITNESS MLD18

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We didn't any interpretation in English.  Would

 7     you try again, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may sit, and you may begin, Mr. Ivetic.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

13        Q.   Good morning, witness.  As you know, I'm Dan Ivetic, one of the

14     attorneys for Mr. Lukic in these proceedings.  Today for the purposes of

15     the record, I will have to address you as MLD18 in order to preserve the

16     protective measures that have been granted by this Trial Chamber.  With

17     the -- with the assistance of the court usher, I will now ask to have

18     handed to you a pseudonym sheet; and, sir, when you get this pseudonym

19     sheet, I will ask you to review the same and note if the personal details

20     for yourself, including your name and date of birth, as to the pseudonym

21     MLD18 are accurate.

22             Do you need your glasses, sir, to review the document?

23        A.   Yes.  I've left them in my coat pocket.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, perhaps I can move forward with

25     another question while we're waiting.

Page 4410

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 2             MR. IVETIC:

 3        Q.   Sir, first of all, what is your ethnicity?

 4        A.   I'm a Serb.

 5        Q.   And I apologise I'm just waiting for the transcript.  It is

 6     coming up.  Good.

 7             And in what municipality and country do you currently reside and

 8     in order to preserve your protective measures, I would ask you to refrain

 9     from giving an exact address.

10        A.   I reside in Republika Srpska, Bosnia and Herzegovina, in

11     Visegrad.

12        Q.   And subject to the same caution about revealing your identity, in

13     which municipality did you reside in 1992?

14        A.   In Visegrad.

15        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, if we could return to the pseudonym sheet

16     that is before you, if you could examine the same; and if you could

17     please first verify for us that the information contained as to yourself,

18     including your name and your date of birth, is indeed accurate.

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   And if you could look further down on the sheet, do you see that

21     someone else's name that you recognise is listed there with a pseudonym

22     of MLD7 for them?  I would ask that if they come up -- if that name comes

23     up during the course of your testimony that you utilise the

24     pseudonym MLD7 rather than the individual's full name.  Is that fair and

25     understood?

Page 4411

 1        A.   Yes, it's understood.

 2        Q.   And now if you could sign the pseudonym sheet, sir.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, upon signature and submission

 4     back to the court usher, would ask that this be tendered into evidence as

 5     the next 1D exhibit number.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D102 under seal, Your Honours.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, now for the first part of my

 9     examination, I would like to go into private session to protect the

10     identity of this witness when going over background.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4412











11  Pages 4412-4417 redacted. Private session.















Page 4418

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

20        Q.   With respect to Mr. Milan Lukic, did you have occasion to --

21     strike that.

22             On the occasions when you saw Mr. Milan Lukic come to where you

23     were posted, did he come alone or was he in the company of other

24     individuals?

25        A.   He sometimes came alone, and sometimes he was accompanied by

Page 4419

 1     police officers.  I remember once or twice he came with Vidoje Andric.

 2        Q.   And during those occasions in May of 1992, when Mr. Lukic came to

 3     where you were posted, did you have occasion to find out or to -- to see

 4     what type of uniform he was wearing?

 5        A.   Milan Lukic, as far as I remember at the time, was wearing a

 6     uniform, camouflage uniform.  He probably had a number of different sets.

 7     I know that at the time it was camouflage.  We ourselves were wearing

 8     olive-drab uniforms, and there weren't too many people who were wearing

 9     camouflage by this time in late May.  Most of the soldiers were wearing

10     olive-drab.  And then at a later stage, the remaining soldiers, too,

11     started getting camouflage uniforms.

12        Q.   What I'm getting at is when you saw him coming either alone or

13     with these other peoples, did you have occasion to ascertain with what --

14     with what organisation in Visegrad he was, at that time, affiliated with,

15     what entity?

16        A.   Well, I said he came to the post office several times.  I

17     remember that.  He hung out with Vidoje Andric, the late Vidoje Andric,

18     and some other people who were with the police.

19        Q.   Okay.

20        A.   I wasn't really paying attention to that sort of thing at the

21     time, who was hanging out with whom, but as I say, I remember that --

22        Q.   Okay.  You have to be careful that you don't speak when my

23     microphone is on, otherwise your voice will be carried out of the

24     broadcast.  That's what I wanted to -- to warn you about that.

25             Now, with respect to your knowledge of Visegrad and the time

Page 4420

 1     period when the -- prior to -- prior to the war breaking out and the war

 2     breaking out, do you have familiarity with a group known as the

 3     White Eagles, and if so, when did that group arrive in Visegrad?

 4        A.   You see, as I said, all of these things that happened before the

 5     war, and as I was telling you, on the eve of the war and before

 6     hostilities broke out and the Uzice Corps came in, this Bosniak friend of

 7     mine took me to Priboj --

 8        Q.   Sir, sir, sir.  Remember we're in open session, so as your giving

 9     a -- be careful to not mention locations which could identify your

10     identity.  And I apologise.  Continue with your answer as to your

11     knowledge of the White Eagles and when they arrived to Visegrad.

12        A.   When we returned into town and when the Uzice Corps came, we had

13     this work assignment.  We were mobilised in that way for work.  We went

14     to work every day, and each day after work, we would go to this cafe, the

15     one that was open.  We would assemble there.  We would share drinks.  We

16     would exchange stories and experiences, who went where, and what, and

17     how, and with whom, and what they did and so on and so forth.  And then

18     as I was spending time around town and in that cafe, I saw some people I

19     didn't know who weren't familiar in all sorts of different uniforms with

20     hats, caps; and I heard these people had arrived from Serbia.  But the

21     people of Visegrad had called them in and that they were the

22     White Eagles.

23        Q.   And with respect to this group call the White Eagles, was, to

24     your knowledge, Milan Lukic ever affiliated with them or commander of

25     such a formation?

Page 4421

 1        A.   Well, listen, I told you I met Milan Lukic physically, personally

 2     in late May when he started to visit me at the post office.  I allowed

 3     him to make telephone calls.  One thing is sure.  I don't remember

 4     Milan Lukic hanging out with those people who came in after the

 5     Uzice Corps.  I remember some people who were spending time in cafes

 6     calling out nicknames, and Milan Lukic was certainly not one of them or

 7     among them at the time.

 8        Q.   Okay.  That's what I want to find out.  And with respect to the

 9     White Eagles, was it known in the community who the stated commander of

10     that formation was?

11        A.   Well, the talk about town and in the town's cafes was that

12     Dejan Jeftic was in charge, was the leader.

13        Q.   Now, with respect to your leaving the White Eagles and returning

14     to Milan Lukic and your encounters with him, did you in the course of

15     your encounters with Mr. Milan Lukic in 1992 have occasion -- strike

16     that.

17             Did you have occasion to have encounters with Mr. Milan Lukic in

18     any years after 1992, and if so, under what circumstances?

19        A.   I would meet Milan Lukic when he came back from Serbia where he

20     had been in prison.  (redacted)  So we were

21     neighbours for a while, and we would see each other quite frequently in

22     the pub and also about town.

23        Q.   And how -- how large is that building where you resided?  How

24     many -- how many apartments or floors, if you know?  Again without

25     mentioning the exact floor that you're located on.

Page 4422

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I don't know whether we should redact

 4     the portion of where -- where the -- where the pub was located.  I don't

 5     know if that number of apartments can lead someone to conclude or narrow

 6     down who this individual might be in light of the other --

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we'll have it redacted.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   Now, could you detail for us your knowledge -- first of all,

10     Mr. Lukic had a pub.  Could you detail for us how Mr. -- what your --

11     your encounters with Mr. Lukic in the pub, how was he?  How did he react

12     to patrons, et cetera, or interact with patrons?

13        A.   We knew each other already because we had met when he came to the

14     post office to make those phone calls, and I knew this relative of his.

15     So we new each other, and we would spend some time there together.  He

16     would treat us well.  He was very fair to us, and he sometimes offered us

17     drinks.  He certainly was extremely fair to me.

18        Q.   What about his interactions with other members of the public who

19     were entering the pub?

20        A.   Well, as far as I remember, he was respectful to everyone.  We

21     paid for some of the rounds and some were offered by him.  We would just

22     sit there, spend time there, chat away the hours.  So that was the

23     setting for the way in which we socialised.  This was a town centre pub,

24     after all.

25        Q.   And just to clarify, what year or time period was the pub in

Page 4423

 1     operation under the auspices of Mr. Milan Lukic?

 2        A.   Well, as far as I remember, it could have been late 1993 or

 3     perhaps 1994, 1995.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Based on your interactions with Mr. Lukic both during 1992

 5     and thereafter, would you consider yourself someone that knew Mr. Lukic

 6     well as a person?

 7        A.   Well, that's a little vague, but the one thing that I can say is,

 8     yes, we knew each other, and I knew him.

 9        Q.   In all that time that you saw or knew Milan Lukic, did he ever

10     have blonde hair or blue eyes?

11        A.   Not that I remember.  Milan Lukic always had black hair.

12        Q.   Did you -- did you ever see him consume alcohol or get drunk?

13        A.   To be perfectly honest, in those years of war, there was plenty

14     of soldiers there who drank a lot, and it is perhaps surprising that

15     Milan Lukic never drank, never smoked, and in my presence one thing that

16     I can vouch for is that he never had a single shot of anything or a glass

17     of any sort of alcohol whatsoever.

18        Q.   I apologise, sir.  We're waiting for the translation and the

19     transcript to catch up with your testimony.

20             Based upon your personal encounters and knowledge of Mr. Lukic,

21     what would be your appraisal of the type of person Milan Lukic was.  And

22     how would you describe him including, if you can, any specific instances

23     you recall that symbolise his interactions with -- with civilians or with

24     children, et cetera, persons of other ethnic groups, et cetera?

25        A.   Well, listen, as far as I'm concerned and our relationship and

Page 4424

 1     the way we met, as I said, I allowed Milan Lukic to use the premises of

 2     the post office to make telephone calls.  We had a good relationship.  He

 3     was exceptionally fair to me at all times.

 4             In 1992, when he was passing through town, I know that the kids

 5     loved him.  They would run after him, and he gave them candy and

 6     chocolate.  I know that he was well liked by the town's children.  He was

 7     their favourite.  I'm talking about the time that I actually spent in

 8     town myself when I wasn't away on business or another assignment.  At

 9     those times, I noticed that the kids loved him.

10        Q.   And now if we can go back into private session, Your Honour.  I

11     don't see how I can ask the following questions --

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

13             MR. IVETIC:  -- without revealing the identity of the witness.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4425











11  Pages 4425-4429 redacted. Private session.















Page 4430

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

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16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honour, I had gotten ahead of

24     myself, forgetting that we're in private session.

25             MR. IVETIC:

Page 4431

 1        Q.   Now, if we could again, sir, ask you to detail for us your

 2     knowledge of who killed Novica Lukic on around Easter on Mali Vaskrs in

 3     2005.

 4        A.   Well, let me tell you.  If I still recall, it was Mali Vaskrs.

 5     That's what we call it, we Orthodox Christians; and we went out.  We were

 6     in town, and we learned that Novica Lukic had been killed, late Novica,

 7     Milan's brother.  And it was well known that he had been killed by the

 8     Special Police because we could read it in the papers later on.  It was

 9     publicised.  And also, these were the Special Police of Republika Srpska.

10        Q.   And -- and the Special Police of Republika Srpska, at that time

11     point in time, who was the minister of police and from which political

12     party did he hail?

13             I'm sorry, did we get an answer?  I'm not seeing anything in the

14     transcript.

15             Sir, do you recall the political party that was in power, at

16     least in the ministry of the police of the Republika Srpska at that point

17     in time?

18        A.   I'm trying to recall the name.  I think that the police chief --

19     the police chief's name was, if I can remember -- I think that at this

20     time, the ministry was from the SDS; but the minister's name, I can't

21     real little recall.

22        Q.   With respect -- with respect to the house where Novica Lukic was

23     killed, had Milan Lukic ever resided there during the time period that

24     you knew him?

25        A.   As I've already mentioned, Milan Lukic resided, lived, in the

Page 4432

 1     house above the pub.  And I knew the late Novica because he was a

 2     co-worker.  I used to visit him at his house.  When he got married,

 3     all -- many of us co-workers went to see them.  And also when they had a

 4     daughter, we all went to visit him.

 5             And I know that Milan Lukic, when he return from Serbia, from the

 6     prison, that he lived there in that apartment.

 7        Q.   And what is the approximate distance between the home where

 8     Novica Lukic resided and was killed and this apartment of Milan Lukic

 9     where he had resided previously?  Where Milan Lukic had resided, I should

10     say.

11        A.   Well, I think about two, two and a half kilometres.  In my

12     assessment it's about two and a half kilometres away.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do -- strike that.  And just to back up and clarify

14     one question that I'd missed with respect to the White Eagles, the

15     persons that were in Visegrad known as the White Eagles.  Did they -- did

16     those individuals remain in Visegrad the entire duration of the war?

17        A.   When the Army of Republika Srpska was established and after the

18     mobilisation, most of these men left one by one.  As far as I can recall,

19     they just sort of dispersed one by one, these small groups of men who

20     were there at the time when the Uzice Corps entered, but I didn't see

21     them after that until the end of the war.

22        Q.   Thank you, sir, for answering my questions.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I have no further questions on direct

24     for this witness, and I pass the witness.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 4433

 1             Ms. Sartorio.

 2             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, if we may, I'd like to request that

 3     we take the break a little bit early.  I had anticipated quite a lengthy

 4     cross, but I think that I can shorten it considerably if I have a few

 5     moments to reorganise and speak with Mr. Dermot Groome.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  We'll take the break now.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.12 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 10.39 a.m.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Before you begin, Ms. Sartorio; Mr. Ivetic and

10     Mr. Alarid, you have submitted two motions to add witnesses for next

11     week, but when we examine the two, we are unclear as to exactly which

12     witnesses you actually wish to add because there is a sort of overlap and

13     some confusion and not a sufficiently clear identification of the

14     specific witnesses that you wish to add.  So at the beginning of the next

15     session, I want you to -- to identify the specific witnesses.

16             Yes, Ms. Sartorio.

17             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18                           Cross-examination by Ms. Sartorio:

19        Q.   Good morning, MLD18.

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   My name is Laurie Sartorio, and I'll be asking you some questions

22     on behalf of the Prosecution this morning.

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4434

 1   (redacted)

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I believe the nature of his -- of his

 3     posting was in private session for purposes of his identification.  So I

 4     would ask that the counsel be careful in terms of what is said in public

 5     session.  I apologise for interrupting otherwise.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Sartorio be mindful of that.

 7             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes, I apologise for that and suppose it will be

 8     redacted?

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

10             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you.  Perhaps we should go into closed

11     session then.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4435











11  Pages 4435-4439 redacted. Private session.















Page 4440

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

19             MS. SARTORIO:

20        Q.   Now, sir, can you describe the rest of the uniform that were worn

21     by the White Eagles, what colour, whether you saw any emblems on their

22     uniforms?  Can you please tell us as much as you can remember about the

23     White Eagles' uniforms.

24        A.   Well, they wore all sorts of uniforms.  Some were wearing plain

25     clothes, jackets.  Some wore hats and some didn't.  Some wore camouflage,

Page 4441

 1     some not.  I mean, different types of uniform.  Not all of them were

 2     wearing the same type of uniform.

 3        Q.   Do you know if this group carried a banner, a symbol of their

 4     group; and if so, can you describe what the banner may have looked like?

 5        A.   I didn't.  I said I saw them there.  They stopped by the pub

 6     sometimes for a drink.  I mean, I say I don't remember them walking about

 7     town carrying a banner.  For the most part, as I said, I would see them

 8     on my way back from work.  They stopped by the pub.  They weren't

 9     familiar, and they weren't from Visegrad.  Wearing all sorts of uniforms.

10     They weren't all wearing the same type of clothes or uniform.  And people

11     were saying these are the White Eagles that came from some place in

12     Serbia, all sorts of different places.  As I said, I didn't see them walk

13     about town carrying a banner.

14             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honours, I'd like the witness to be shown a

15     photograph.  It is 0644-6597.

16        Q.   Sir, these are the uniforms worn by the White Eagles, is it not?

17             MR. IVETIC:  Objection, Your Honour.  Foundation, calls for

18     speculation.  She has to ask first if the witness --

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, I don't think -- that is really not

20     necessary.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The witness can say whether he knows or doesn't

23     know.  Let's not waste time.

24             Please answer the question.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These fur hats that they wore, I

Page 4442

 1     remember that Jelav [phoen] from Priboj was wearing that -- those White

 2     Eagles from Priboj.  He was wearing a fur cap.

 3             MS. SARTORIO:

 4        Q.   And can you tell us what it says on the banner?

 5        A.   "With faith in God.  Freedom -- freedom," as far as I can tell,

 6     "or death."  One can't really see very well, but I assume this is an R.

 7        Q.   And if we can go up to the -- the face of the man on the right of

 8     the photograph with the black hat.  If we can zoom in on his hat.

 9             Sir, you see an emblem on this black hat?

10        A.   Yes, but it's not very distinct.  I happen to know that the

11     people who were wearing these fur caps wore these coats of arms.  I see

12     the outline, and as far as I can tell, there's an eagle on this, and that

13     leads me to conclude that this is an old Nemanjici coat of arms.  Two

14     eagle -- two-headed eagle.  When I look at the outline, that's how it

15     appears to me.

16        Q.   And these men in this photograph, these are members of the

17     White Eagles; is that correct?  They're wearing the uniforms of the

18     White Eagles?

19             MR. ALARID:  Objection, calls for speculation.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Do you know or can you answer that question,

21     Witness?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as I said, those

23     White Eagles, those men who were unfamiliar to me, and they weren't from

24     Visegrad, they would come by the cafe, and they were wearing different

25     kinds of clothes or uniforms.  Some looked like this, these fur caps,

Page 4443

 1     camouflage.  Many of them were just wearing plain clothes.  Some were

 2     wearing this fur cap.  Some were wearing hats.  They were wearing all

 3     sorts of different clothes.  They weren't all wearing the same clothes.

 4             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, I ask that this photograph be

 5     admitted in evidence.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P229, Your Honours.

 8             MS. SARTORIO:  Now I'd like the witness to be shown 0644-6664.

 9     This is another photograph.  Could you enlarge it just a little bit,

10     please.

11        Q.   Sir, you recognise the man in this photograph?

12        A.   Yes, Milan Lukic.

13        Q.   And this is the same fur cap that you've been describing that was

14     worn by the White Eagles; is this correct?

15             MR. IVETIC:  Objection, Your Honour, misstates the evidence.

16     They were shown the one photograph, and he said one of the White Eagles

17     wore a hat like this.  And then he said that they were sesirs.  Again I

18     return, it's a distinction that has to be made that the transcript

19     reflects.

20             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Furry cap as opposed to --

22             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour.  Your Honour, again, the witness

23     mentioned fur cap several times in his testimony.

24             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.  And, Your Honour, I'm entitled to

25     make my objection for the record, and I object to the counsel

Page 4444

 1     interrupting my objection.  I have a right to state my case for the

 2     record.

 3             MS. SARTORIO:  Well not when you testify and are coaching the

 4     witness.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, is she supposed to be talking to me?

 6     Is she supposed to be talking to me?

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Have a seat.  Have a seat.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Can I continue?

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, do you know the fur cap, the fur cap

10     worn by the White Eagles?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see the previous picture

12     that you showed me and this one that I'm looking at now, I mean, fur cap

13     as fur cap, if I --

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just attend to the question I've asked you.

15     Attend to the question I've asked you.  Listen to the question I'm

16     asking:  Do you know the fur cap that is worn by the White Eagles?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, there are different

18     kinds of fur caps.  Some people, like, for example, the one that I'm

19     looking at now, to the extent that I could notice the one I noticed a

20     while ago, tapered off towards the top, but this, the insignia,

21     double-headed eagle, this is the ancient coat of arms of the Nemanjic

22     family.  On these fur caps this is the sort of thing they wore, the

23     double-headed eagle with a crown.  This is an ancient Nemanjic family

24     coat of arms and the subara cap tapers off towards the top, and the flat

25     one is flat.

Page 4445

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Sartorio.

 2             MS. SARTORIO:

 3        Q.   Is this the same insignia that was on the hat in the previous

 4     photograph?

 5             MR. ALARID:  Objection.  Calls for speculation.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The cap is there.  What speculation?  It's for

 7     him to say whether [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, he said in the last one he couldn't see

 9     the insignia if that is the testimony.  He couldn't make out the

10     insignia.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well if he can't make out the insignia, he can't

12     answer the question.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Move on.

15             MS. SARTORIO:  Could we enlarge it a little bit further, please.

16             MR. ALARID:  Would it be possible to put the previous picture on

17     a side by side since the question was the same as the previous insignia?

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Do you want that done, Ms. Sartorio?

19             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, he can do that on redirect.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, okay.

21             MS. SARTORIO:  We also appear to have a better colour

22     photograph -- a better photo of this in our system, Your Honour, and if I

23     may have a moment to speak with my case manager.

24             MR. IVETIC:  We've never had a colour one disclosed to us as far

25     as I know.

Page 4446

 1             MS. SARTORIO:  It's just -- it's exact same picture.  It's just a

 2     better quality.  However, let me just ask the witness.

 3        Q.   Do you recognise what is on this insignia?

 4        A.   Well, I said didn't I, this is a double-headed eagle with a crown

 5     over it.  This is the ancient Nemanjic house, Nemanjic family coat of

 6     arms; and many people supported this type of insignia, the double-headed

 7     eagle with a crown, the old Nemanjic coat of arms.

 8        Q.   Can you see if there's a skull and cross-bone on this emblem?

 9     Strike that.

10             What other -- can you tell us if any other units wore these types

11     of hats?

12        A.   Well, you see, I know from history that in World War II, I mean

13     the Serbian army, the Chetniks who in World War, I were -- I mean, the

14     Chetniks, that was the name used for the Serbian army from World War I,

15     and they wore these types of insignia, the double-headed eagle with the

16     crown, the old Nemanjic family coat of arms.

17             I mean, I didn't see that myself, obviously, in World War II, but

18     I did some reading, and I know that World War I and World War II, the

19     Serbian army, the Chetniks, wearing this type of insignia, the

20     double-headed eagle with the crown.

21        Q.   And what units in the 1992, when the wore broke out in Visegrad,

22     what units were wearing these hats?

23        A.   Well, let me tell you, I mean which unit -- I mean, the army, we

24     soldiers of Republika Srpska, were wearing this, I mean, olive-drab that

25     we had pre-war reservists; and I mean, there was the -- I mean, then the

Page 4447

 1     five-pointed star, and when the war began, meaning not everybody had

 2     uniforms at the beginning of the war, and then people used all sorts of

 3     different uniforms to wear.

 4             As I said, this sort of insignia was, as I said, worn by certain

 5     Serbs who felt, I mean, greater Serbs than others, to some extent, and

 6     they wore these fur caps with this double-headed eagle, this old coat of

 7     arms of the Nemanjic family.

 8        Q.   Sir, this hat was not a part of the uniform of the police

 9     officers of Visegrad, was it?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   And this hat was not a regular part of the army uniforms of units

12     of the Republika Srpska; is that correct?

13        A.   Well, as I said, at the beginning of the war when there were no

14     uniforms to go around, some soldiers from the regular Army of

15     Republika Srpska were wearing stuff like this, while at the other hand at

16     a later time when this, I mean, command of the Army of Republika Srpska

17     had been established and then for the most part, I mean, it was the

18     three-coloured flag of Republika Srpska and later the camouflage uniform

19     started arriving, and many soldiers continued to wear olive-drab for a

20     long time and then later camouflage.

21             But as I said, some of the soldiers, in a manner of speaking,

22     borrowed these fur caps from their grandfathers and grand-grandfathers

23     and there were some regular soldiers being seen wearing things like

24     these.  It wasn't [indiscernible] or anything.

25             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, I ask that this photograph be

Page 4448

 1     admitted -- oh, I'm not finished.  Excuse me.  Sorry.

 2             Could we -- could we focus in on the emblem on the shirt, please.

 3        Q.   Sir, are you able to tell us what these words say and what this

 4     picture depicts?

 5        A.   I see the skull, but I really can't read what it says.

 6        Q.   Sir, do you see the phrase "Srpski Cetnicki Pokret."

 7             Do you see that?

 8        A.   Yes.  "Serbian Chetnik Movement."  That's what it says.

 9        Q.   So it says, "Serbian Chetnik Movement."  Is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, yes.  That's what it says.

11             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, we ask that this exhibit be admitted

12     in evidence.

13             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

15             MR. ALARID:  We would object only as much as a lack of foundation

16     based on the timing of the photograph, otherwise qualified by the fact

17     that, of course, this witness did identify Mr. Milan Lukic as being the

18     person in the photograph.  We have no objection for those purposes, but

19     we are somewhat concerned about when the photograph was taken.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I believe there's a sufficient basis for

21     admitting the photograph.  The witness has identified the person as

22     Milan Lukic.  We'll admit it.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P230, Your Honours.

24             MS. SARTORIO:

25        Q.   Now, sir, you came here today -- one of the reasons that you came

Page 4449

 1     here today was to testify about the good moral character of Milan Lukic;

 2     is that correct?

 3        A.   Well, listen, I'm not here to -- I mean, that's not the reason I

 4     came, to speak about the good character and the morality of Milan Lukic.

 5     I came here because I was named as a witness, and I was good friends with

 6     the late Novica.  I knew Milan as well.  I am here to tell the truth the

 7     way it is.  I'm here to tell you about the Milan Lukic that I know.  I'm

 8     not here to talk about anything else.  My friendship with Milan Lukic in

 9     all of this period, Milan Lukic has always been very fair to me and my

10     family.  I'm not here to discuss morality or character, which are very

11     broad concepts.  But one thing that I can tell you is that he always

12     treated me and my family in an extremely fair way.

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Thank you for answering my questions, and I have

14     no further questions.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Ms. Sartorio.

16             Mr. Ivetic.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours very briefly.  Are we in open

18     session or private session?  Open.  Thank you.

19                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

20        Q.   With respect to the White Eagles, sir, you indicated earlier,

21     it's recorded in the transcript -- strike that.

22             It's recorded in the transcript -- let me just get the exact

23     reference so that there is no confusion.

24             It is recorded in the transcript that you said that when they

25     were in the pub they referred to each other using pseudonyms and

Page 4450

 1     code-names.  This is at page 33, 2.  Is that, in fact, what you said?

 2     Did you use the term "code-names" or something else?

 3        A.   I said that they used nicknames.  I remember that they called

 4     each other Aro [phoen] or Sljivovica.  I can't recall them all, all these

 5     monikers, but they seldom addressed each other using their first names.

 6     They would use nicknames.  I remember a man that everyone referred to or

 7     called Aro or another one to whom everyone referred as Sljivovica,

 8     meaning brandy.  Usually they would use nicknames.

 9        Q.   And with respect to these White Eagles that you saw in the pubs,

10     did you ever see Milan Lukic in their company?

11        A.   I said that I saw Milan Lukic for the first time when I met him

12     at the end of May when he came to make a phone call and was introduced by

13     this relative of his.  And before that time, I had heard of Milan Lukic

14     but I did not know what he looked like.  I didn't know him physically.

15             So we spent a lot of time in the posts office on duty service,

16     but I'm sure that when I met him at the end of May, even if he had been

17     with the White Eagles, once the Uzice Corps entered Visegrad because I

18     did see these men, but I would have known him had I seen him with them.

19     So he was not with them in this time, in this period of time.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  If we can have P229 up on the screen.

21     This is the -- one of the pictures that was shown to the witness by the

22     Office of the Prosecutor.

23        Q.   And to clarify the record since the Prosecution did not but left

24     it with their questions making an assertion, the gentleman on the

25     right-hand side of the picture.  Hold on one moment.

Page 4451

 1             The man on the right-hand side, did you ever see this gentleman

 2     with the -- did you ever see this gentleman with the White Eagles?

 3        A.   I don't know this gentleman at all.  I've never seen him.

 4        Q.   Now, with respect to this hat that this gentleman is wearing,

 5     earlier in your testimony, you talked about the White Eagles and the fact

 6     that they wore sesirs.  Is this --

 7             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Based on what?

 9             MS. SARTORIO:  I mean, can he refer to a particular part of the

10     transcript.  I would request if he's referring to --

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let us hear the transcript reference.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Gladly.  Transcript

13     page 34, line 16 through 19.  We have also transcript page 34, 8 through

14     11.  And so I'm going to ask for the -- for that portion to be clarified

15     with the witness since again the Prosecution is attempting through -- is

16     wasn't left -- it wasn't clarified with respect to the questions that the

17     Prosecution asked; so I'm entitled to ask it, and I don't think there's a

18     proper objection to it.  I could also ask my questions in B/C/S, in which

19     case the same term would be used, and it would be a proper question and

20     it would not be objectionable to.  So really, I think, the Prosecution is

21     making an improper objection in this regard.

22             MS. SARTORIO:  I didn't mean to make an objection, Your Honour.

23     I just wanted to --

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The record --

25             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes.

Page 4452

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Proceed.

 2             MR. IVETIC:

 3        Q.   Now, with respect to this -- let me restate the question.  You --

 4     well with respect to this hat that the gentleman on the right-hand side

 5     is wearing, is that a sesir?

 6        A.   No, this is a subara, a fur cap.  A hat -- a hat has a brim, but

 7     this is a cap that the Serbian folk used to wear in the past.  It's a fur

 8     cap.

 9             As for the people who had come, as I already said, some of them

10     wore a hat, some were bare-headed, but these Whites -- these

11     White Eagles, these were people we didn't know.  They came from different

12     parts.  And mention was made of some White Eagles who were from somewhere

13     around Priboj, and I know that some of them wore these subaras or these

14     fur caps with insignia, and I think these were the White Eagles from

15     somewhere around Priboj.

16        Q.   And just to finish up on that picture, the gentleman on the

17     left-hand side, is he wearing what is referred to in Serbian as a sesir?

18        A.   This is a Serbian cap called Sajkaca.  On the left hand this

19     soldier has a sajkaca on his head whereas the man on the rights has a

20     subara.  As for hat --

21        Q.   In the army of the Serb Republic what type of headgear or hat did

22     Serbian officers in the army of the Serb republic wear?

23        A.   The officers of the Republika Srpska army wore caps with a blue

24     brim.  These were caps with a small --

25        Q.   And --

Page 4453

 1        A.   -- brim in front.

 2        Q.   And you say they were caps.  What type of cap were they in the

 3     Serbian terminology?  Was it an sesir, subara, sajkaca or something else?

 4        A.   Neither a hat nor a sajkaca nor a subara but something quite

 5     different.

 6        Q.   And with respect to those hats that were part of the official

 7     uniform of the Army of Republika Srpska for officers, what emblem was on

 8     the front of those hats?

 9        A.   When the war broke out, we all still had these green-drab colour

10     uniforms of the former Yugoslav army with five-pronged stars on them.

11     When the war broke out, most of the people took off these stars off their

12     caps, and they didn't have any insignia.  I'm of course referring to

13     those who did wear caps because it was not obligatory to wear them.

14     Later on they would wear a flag, the three-colour flag of the Army of

15     Republika Srpska; so they wore any kind of headgear they could get hold

16     on, whatever they had.

17        Q.   And with respect to the flag of the Republika Srpska -- pardon

18     me.  With respect to the flag of Serbia, what emblem is on the flag of

19     the Republic of Serbia to this day?

20        A.   Do you mean the flag or the emblem?

21        Q.   Let me -- let me rephrase it back.  What coat of arms is on the

22     flag of the Republic of Serbia's flag?

23        A.   Well, to tell you the truth, I'm not even sure at this point what

24     the coat of arms of the Republic of Serbia is, but I know that the coat

25     of arms of Republika Srpska is the two-headed eagle.

Page 4454

 1        Q.   And is the two-headed eagle the same or similar to the Nemanjic

 2     crest that you had referred to earlier?  How can you -- how can you

 3     compare the two?

 4        A.   As far as I know from my history classes, the ancient emblem, the

 5     ancient crest, was the two-headed eagle of the ancient Nemanjic State,

 6     and it is still referred to as the Nemanjic coat of arms.

 7        Q.   And how does that coat of arms of the Nemanjics compare to the

 8     official emblem or coat of arms of the Republika Srpska and its organs

 9     after -- during that time period?

10        A.   They're rather similar, but I think the difference is in that the

11     coat of arms also has the four S's.  Now, whether that is the actual

12     difference between these two coats of arms, the Nemanjici coat of arms

13     and the two-headed eagle crest, some of them did -- one of them does have

14     the four S's and the other doesn't.

15        Q.   And -- want respect to Milan Lukic and the times that you

16     encountered him in 1992 when he came in to where you were posted in

17     uniform, did you ever see him wearing a furry subara hat?

18        A.   No.  When he came to make those phone calls, he never had a fur

19     hat on his head.  As far as I can recall, he came without any headgear.

20     He was bare-headed and wearing a camouflage uniform.  He didn't have

21     anything on his head, no headgear at all, no hats, no subara, no sajkaca.

22     He came without any -- anything on his head, without any insignia on his

23     head.  He just came wearing his camouflage uniform.

24        Q.   And in those occasions when you had occasion to encounter

25     Mr. Milan Lukic coming into where you were posted, did he at any time

Page 4455

 1     wear a long beard?

 2        A.   As far as I can recall, but I'm not certain, but in my

 3     recollection he was clean-shaven.  He did not have a beard.  I don't

 4     recall seeing him with a beard.

 5        Q.   Just one last thing with respect to Mr. Tripkovic.  Are you

 6     familiar with any memorials --

 7             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour.  This goes beyond the

 8     scope of cross-examination.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic?

10             MR. IVETIC:  I thought that they touched on it at the beginning

11     but I could be mistaken.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's not allowed.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  In that case, Mr. Witness, I thank you for

14     coming here to testify -- I thank you for coming here to testify.

15             I have no further questions for this witness, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, that concludes your evidence.  We thank

17     you for giving it.  You may now leave.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The next witness, please.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, we have no further witnesses in

21     The Hague available to testify at this time.  I could use this

22     opportunity to clear up the issue with the two filings we had, but --

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You should use the opportunity to explain why

24     there are no other witnesses.

25             MR. IVETIC:  We did not have witnesses who could be here who had

Page 4456

 1     visas in time.  We had one witness who was schedule for this week whose

 2     visa could not be obtained in time.  She -- that witness is schedule to

 3     be, I believe, the first or second witness next week on Monday.  This

 4     week was a difficult week to bring witnesses here.  Your Honours have

 5     heard testimony that was Jovidan [phoen], the slava, this Tuesday,

 6     Wednesday, and Thursday.  This is the patron saint slava of most of the

 7     population of Visegrad, so there were persons that were engaged in

 8     activities relating to that slava and, therefore, could not attend to

 9     court this week.

10             We have at least two of those individuals -- pardon me, one of

11     those -- two of those individuals coming this coming week.  Additionally

12     we have persons who do not have passports for which we have made

13     applications for passports of the Bosnian authorities to try to get those

14     people ready to travel, and there are a certain number of people on our

15     witness list that I have not been able to find, locate, speak with and

16     obtain their voluntary testimony at this Tribunal.

17             So we, as you might recall, this week had had video -- had had

18     some witnesses I thought that were that were anticipated via videolink.

19     Those are now been continued to another time pursuant to the Court's

20     order, so I -- in terms of the number of witnesses that we had planned to

21     try to accommodate this week, we have to take into account that those two

22     witnesses that had been scheduled are not able to proceed this week, and

23     therefore we have this gap of approximately, I don't know, how many

24     witnesses would have fit in this time perhaps one or two.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Dygeus, Philip.

Page 4457

 1                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic, you know the matter is not as simple

 3     as that.  It is not sufficient merely to say that the witnesses don't

 4     have visas or you have just applied for passports.  The question is

 5     whether these things have been done in sufficient time, and I need to

 6     investigate it --

 7             MR. IVETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  -- to satisfy myself before deducting the time

 9     from your account.  We cannot continue like this.  We have a day with

10     three sessions and now we're ending in the middle of the second session.

11     We could easily have done another witness.  And if the investigations

12     that I'm going to undertake reveal that there has been negligence on the

13     part of the Defence, then the time will be deducted from the account of

14     the Defence.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I can only state for the record again

16     in the past month I've been to the region four times.  I sometimes travel

17     twice a week to the region to try to find witnesses and obtain witnesses.

18     This is one of the factors that is the result of the -- the case

19     proceeding in the manner that it has, that we have not been able to have

20     personnel in the field that are able to perform the tasks necessary to

21     bring witnesses here.  And I'm not going to go into that in detail

22     because I think we've already done that, and I think I would defer to

23     Mr. Alarid --

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The court deputy please inform the registrar

25     that I'd like a full account of all the information and the requests that

Page 4458

 1     were made of them by the Defence in relation to the attendance of the

 2     witnesses for today.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be done, Your Honours.

 4             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, you know, by illustration, I'd kind of

 5     like to just give a point that sort of shows what we've been having to

 6     deal with.  Like, for instance, one of the witnesses that came this week,

 7     the week before to get that passport in order, we had to put a

 8     16-year-old boy on an overnight bus to Visegrad to get it in on time, and

 9     a boy goes out and gets a copy and it's as simple as getting that copy;

10     and that copy being essential for what VWS needs to process, you know,

11     this witness.

12             And so it's those kind of -- of unusual steps, I think, that are

13     in a way unprofessional because we don't normally kind of find volunteers

14     to kind of get these things done, but we've been having to resort to do

15     that given our limited resources.  So if you want to call it our

16     negligence, I will -- it's not VWS's fault, of course not.  They're only

17     able to work with what we give them and in the time-frame we give it to

18     them.  But I would say --

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The question is whether you give it to them in

20     sufficient time.

21             MR. ALARID:  Absolutely, Judge.  And I say that we are just

22     constrained by those kinds of problems that I had hoped a different

23     scheduling of this case or different resources appropriated to this case

24     would have been made better for you.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We've always coming back to that, Mr. Alarid,

Page 4459

 1     but that issue has been settled.  I have been here at the Tribunal long

 2     enough to know that Defence counsel are able to get witnesses to court on

 3     time.

 4             MR. ALARID:  We should be.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  This is the first case in which I have been

 6     involved where there is no -- or there has emerged a pattern of

 7     non-attendance.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  But, Your Honour, have the other cases been a

 9     level 1 under the payment scheme that was instituted by the office of

10     legal aid and detention matters, Your Honour.  I've been here a long time

11     as well as Your Honour knows; and I can tell you the differences between

12     the cases are very stark in terms of the personnel and the capabilities

13     that are there, I know that speaking as someone who has been a level 3

14     case and who has had persons full time in the field, something we've not

15     had in this proceeding, and I submit something that makes a great

16     difference as to how we can proceed.

17             MR. ALARID:  And I must say, Your Honour, we've made this point

18     to the registry on several submissions that you probably wouldn't be

19     privy to, but simply that nothing had been done from an investigative

20     perspective before my, even, involvement as co-counsel.  Then all we were

21     trying to do was get alibis done, then trial started, and we've been

22     doing the best we can during trial.  That's the -- that's the stark

23     difference, I think as well, Your Honour.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, if you are not satisfied with the

Page 4460

 1     registrar's decision, you have recourse.

 2             MR. ALARID:  Well, and that's the difficult thing, Judge, because

 3     we're so busy here with you.  You know how many filings.  You've seen

 4     them.  You've touched them.  As we're trying to prosecute this case, we

 5     don't have a division or extra attorneys that can sort of breakdown and

 6     do that sort of appeals process nor can we slow you down in order to make

 7     those kinds of things happen.  And of course then it --

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Who slows down at all.

 9             MR. ALARID:  Exactly.  We haven't slowed down.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Because while the review is being carried out by

11     the President of the Tribunal, incidentally that would not be me, of

12     course, that would be the Vice-President, the trial is proceeding.

13             MR. ALARID:  Exactly.  And it's over before we get any response

14     and that's kind of, you know, that's kind of been the pattern and

15     practice.  And we just know we've just got to get the job done as best we

16     can, and you're not in a position to stop this trial and give us that

17     time nor is the registrar.  I mean, we asked over and over and over

18     again, and if we didn't avail ourselves of the proper appeals process is

19     because, quite frankly, in trial, how do you have the time to do that?

20             Those things should be settled well in advance, and they were not

21     settled nor did Mr. Yatvin, prior counsel, make those appeals because of

22     the lack of communication.  I can't -- you know, I just feel that my

23     Defence is taking all the blame for something that -- that was a process

24     that's years older than I am in this case.  And I've only been able to do

25     the best I can with the resources that I have and the time I have.  And I

Page 4461

 1     apologise to the Court for witnesses and holes in the case, but like I

 2     said, in good faith we have to talk to these people and get them to you,

 3     and with our sources it's -- we've just done what we could, Judge.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, we have a witness for tomorrow -- not for

 5     tomorrow, for Monday.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, we do, Your Honour.  It's my understanding that

 7     I have two witnesses flying in on Sunday according to VWS, so I also have

 8     actually two witnesses available for Monday.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The international community which takes a great

10     interest in these trials would be very displeased with what is taking

11     place here.  Every other day we are short of witnesses.

12             Did you have something to say -- to clarify the matter that I

13     raised earlier?

14             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, but we need to go into closed

15     session -- or private session, I apologise, I believe.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Private session.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4462











11  Pages 4462-4469 redacted. Private session.















Page 4470

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 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.00 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day

16                           of January, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.