Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5098

 1                           Thursday, 5 March 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.51 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Marcus.

 6             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7                           WITNESS:  WITNESS MLD24 [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           Cross-examination by Ms. Marcus: [Continued]

10             MS. MARCUS:

11        Q.   Good morning, sir.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   I hope you had a chance to rest.

14        A.   Yes, I did rest.

15        Q.   Okay, I'm going to return briefly to a few issues we covered

16     yesterday and ask you a few more follow-up questions.  Now we were

17     talking a little bit about the White Eagles.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   To your knowledge, did the White Eagles commit crimes against

20     Muslims in Visegrad?

21        A.   I don't know if they did or didn't because I was 22,

22     23 kilometres away from the town.  I was at Rujiste, but I just know what

23     I heard and the people spoke about the White Eagles, and they came to

24     Visegrad in April.

25        Q.   And when the people spoke about the White Eagles, of course they

Page 5099

 1     spoke about them committing some bad acts; isn't that correct?

 2        A.   I didn't hear any of that, but I know that everybody was scared.

 3     I don't know who scared them, but we, too, avoided any contact with them,

 4     and -- but I never saw them committing any crimes.

 5        Q.   So you say people were scared of the White Eagles.  Is that your

 6     testimony to your knowledge?

 7        A.   Yes.  Certainly.  And both our folk and the Muslims.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, Ms. Marcus.  I've just been

 9     handed a bit of paper that indicates you're now in excess of the time

10     used by Mr. Ivetic.  Generally I allow parties the same time.  What is

11     your request, if any?

12             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honours.  I have quite a bit of territory

13     to cover.  I will do my absolute utmost to limit it, but I would say I

14     don't think I could do it in less than an hour.  I'll do my absolute

15     utmost.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  All right.  Let us see how we get on.

17             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             Could we go into private session for a few questions, please.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 5100

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19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

21             MS. MARCUS:

22        Q.   MLD24, you testified that you fought within the Rujiste Company

23     in June of 1992; is that correct?

24        A.   That is correct.  From the 22nd -- sorry, the 19th of April, and

25     on the 22nd of May we went to Rujiste.  And there I remained until 1993.

Page 5101

 1     July 1993.

 2        Q.   Now, you also -- you left Rujiste, you testified yesterday, to go

 3     home briefly, just for a shower, from 4.00 p.m. on Saturday, the 13th of

 4     June of 1992, until approximately 10.30 a.m. on Sunday, the 14th of June;

 5     is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And the rest of the time --

 8        A.   Yes, we had to return right away because there was a military

 9     action at Sjemec and Kopito, and we had to return very soon.

10        Q.   Now, the rest of the time, other than your days off, of course,

11     you were serving with the Rujiste Company in Rujiste.  Is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, you testified, also, that Milan Lukic's parents were staying

14     in a tent near your positions for safety in Rujiste; is that correct?

15        A.   Everybody from the village of Rujiste, I can list them by name,

16     but there were two tents.  One was next to a trench, and the other was

17     closer to us, and Mile and Kata were in the one that was closer to us.

18        Q.   Now, so you described a conversation with Milan Lukic's parents

19     which you say took place on the 13th of June.  Now, was that the only

20     time that you saw them in Rujiste, or did you see them more often than

21     that?

22        A.   I saw them more often because they were -- they were near, in the

23     vicinity.  They were always about.

24        Q.   So to your knowledge in the first part of June, they never went

25     anywhere?

Page 5102

 1        A.   Nowhere.

 2             MS. MARCUS:  I'd like to ask for Exhibit ERN 0304-5351.

 3        Q.   Now, in just a moment, sir, I'm going to ask to you have a look

 4     at the screen, and what we're trying to pull up here -- okay, what you

 5     see before you, is this -- can you confirm that this is in fact the

 6     statement which you gave to the lawyers for -- to Mr. Radomir Tanaskovic,

 7     a lawyer from Visegrad, on the 8th of May --

 8        A.   Yes, correct.  Yes.  On the 8th of May, the 8th of May.

 9        Q.   And this is the 8th of May of the year 2000; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, presumably you stand by all the assertions you made in that

12     statement.  Would you say that's correct?

13        A.   Yes, I do.  I stand up to my words, yes.

14             MS. MARCUS:  I'd like to admit this statement under seal, please.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit P255 under seal, Your Honours.

17             MS. MARCUS:

18        Q.   Now, sir, yesterday when we were discussing -- when you were

19     discussing with the other attorneys your knowledge of the -- your

20     neighbors in Koritnik, you testified -- you said a couple of things I'd

21     like to just read back to you.  I'll leave out the transcript references.

22     I have them if necessary, but because they're the temporary transcript, I

23     don't think it helps the record any to mention them, but I do have them

24     at hand if necessary.

25             You said when the people from Koritnik came to your gate, when

Page 5103

 1     you were asked how many of them you knew or which ones you knew, you said

 2     the following:

 3             "There were some younger people whom I didn't know.  I know them

 4     only by sight."

 5             Then a bit later on --

 6        A.   Yes, only by sight, but I know every -- all the older persons,

 7     especially the men.  I knew them all by name.

 8        Q.   So your evidence is that you knew all the older men by name and

 9     some --

10        A.   Yes, I did.

11        Q.   And some of the others, you may have known either by sight or you

12     may not have known them at all; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.  That goes for the women.  I know the names of Apasa, Bula

14     and Mula.  Bula wasn't her real name, but that's what they called her.

15     Actually, I did know her real name because I knew her personally and her

16     husband, too, but anyway.

17        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, when we finished yesterday, you had just

18     testified that you did not know who it was who told your neighbors from

19     Koritnik to leave Koritnik; is that correct?

20        A.   I didn't know that.  I just know that they came to my house with

21     Dusan Grujic and then he returned home because his mother was ill, and he

22     asked me if I could accompany them further, and they asked me the same.

23        Q.   I'm sorry, sir.  May I just respectfully request that you limit

24     your answers because we're quite a bit under a time constraint.

25             So you testified that you did not visit Koritnik -- thank you.

Page 5104

 1        A.   All right.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  You testified that you did not visit Koritnik at

 3     any time between the 6th of May, 1992, and August 1992; is that correct?

 4        A.   That is correct.  I didn't.  There was no opportunity to do so.

 5        Q.   So it is your evidence that you were not among a group of armed

 6     Serb men who visited Koritnik in the days prior to the 14th of June,

 7     1992, and told the Bosnian Muslims in that village to leave; is that

 8     correct?

 9        A.   I most certainly wasn't.  I told you already how it was.

10        Q.   So to be specific, you did not visit Ramiza Kurspahic in her

11     house in Koritnik, ask her where her husband was and two other Bosniak

12     men, and tell her that her husband and the others had to go to Prelovo to

13     sign a paper agreeing to leave Koritnik?  Is that your evidence?

14             MR. ALARID:  Assuming facts not in evidence.

15             MS. MARCUS:  I'm putting facts to him and asking him whether he

16     did or did not do that.

17             MR. ALARID:  Lack of foundation, facts not in evidence.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't see the objection, Mr. Alarid.

19             Please answer the question.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not correct.

21             MS. MARCUS:

22        Q.   So you never went to Redzo Memisevic and Osman Kurspahic to

23     Prelovo so that they could sign a paper agreeing to leave Koritnik; is

24     that correct?

25        A.   I never did that, I didn't go there, and I don't know whether the

Page 5105

 1     people went to Prelovo at all.  So that is not correct.

 2        Q.   So your evidence is that you were not aware that the residents of

 3     Koritnik were asked to sign papers agreeing to leave; have I got it

 4     right?

 5        A.   I didn't know about that.  Nobody told me ever.

 6        Q.   Is there a bus stop along the main road in your village?

 7        A.   Yes, there is a stop.  Sometimes the bus goes to Rujiste or all

 8     the way to Kamenica, and there was a right bend to Koritnik, and many

 9     people road on that bus, pupils, et cetera.

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, when the Koritnik group left the village,

11     they left approximately 25 houses empty.  Would you agree with that?

12        A.   There weren't 25 Muslim houses in Koritnik.  There were only 18.

13     When there was a census in 1991 or 1992, I participated in that census,

14     so we made an inventory of all the houses, but there weren't 25.  That's

15     a lie, and I know every single house.

16        Q.   So how many houses would you say were left empty in Koritnik when

17     the group -- when the villagers left?

18        A.   As many as there were, 18 houses.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20        A.   But some people from the village stayed behind in the woods.

21        Q.   Do you know what happened to the personal belongings of the

22     residents of Koritnik?

23        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't there.  I was somewhere else altogether.

24        Q.   Did any of your neighbors from Koritnik entrust you with their

25     house keys?

Page 5106

 1        A.   No, nobody.

 2        Q.   Now, in fact, you escorted these victims along the walk from your

 3     village towards Visegrad to Sase; is that correct?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   And you testified that you were in camouflage and carrying an

 6     automatic weapon; is that correct?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   Did you walk behind or in front of the column or somewhere in the

 9     middle?

10        A.   I was in the middle beside them.

11        Q.   How long a walk is this, approximately?

12        A.   From my house to Sase, the distance is two and a half kilometres.

13        Q.   Now, presumably you spoke with them along the way, did you not?

14        A.   Yes, we spoke.

15        Q.   Yet the topic of their mass departure from their homes was not

16     discussed?

17        A.   No, but they told me that they weren't to go to Kladanj until

18     things were resolved and then we'll see what they do.  That's what they

19     told me.

20        Q.   Now, when you arrived at Sase, there were other Serb armed men

21     there; isn't that true?

22        A.   There were no other armed Serbs there.  Only a car passed us by

23     there Vilina Vlas and two people got out, two people I didn't know.  And

24     we also met some people I knew on the bridge.  Do you want me to tell

25     what you we spoke about?

Page 5107

 1        Q.   In fact, I was going to ask you whether you inquired as to what

 2     would become of this group of your neighbors from the armed men that you

 3     met at the Sase junction.

 4        A.   Two police officers, reserve police officers were there on the

 5     bridge, and another two people who came by car from Banja stopped there

 6     and ask me, What are these people?  And I said to them, Well, you can see

 7     what's the matter, but you can't --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness be asked to repeat.  We got

 9     lost.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, you're being asked to repeat what you

11     just said.  Would you kindly do that.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  When these men came

13     from Banja by car, they asked me who those people were, and I came with

14     these people to accompany them.  They were waiting for a bus to go to

15     Kladanj.  And he said, We have to take them away, and I said to them, No,

16     you can't do that, only over my dead body.  And fortunately, there were

17     two other police officers there at the regular check-point because they

18     were changing shift, and they also backed me up and saying, You have

19     nothing to do with these people, you just go your way and let us go.

20             MS. MARCUS:

21        Q.   Do you know the names of any of those armed men that you

22     encountered at Sase?

23        A.   No, I don't know those people.  I have never seen them.  I don't

24     know their names.

25        Q.   But your evidence is that they were reserve police officers?

Page 5108

 1        A.   No, no.  Those people on the bridge were reserve police officers.

 2     I knew them:  Nedeljko Jovanovic and Boban Kargan.

 3        Q.   Your evidence is that you were not in contact with Milan Lukic at

 4     all on that day.  Have I got it right?

 5        A.   No, I didn't see him that day anywhere because on the 13th his

 6     parents feared that he had gotten killed up there at Sjemec.  No, I

 7     didn't see him at all.

 8        Q.   And your evidence is that you were not in contact with

 9     Sredoje Lukic at all on that day either; is that correct?

10        A.   That is correct.

11        Q.   So neither you nor Dusan Grujic knew why the Koritnik group was

12     leaving their homes?

13        A.   I told you yesterday and today, also, and I really don't know.  I

14     just know that they came to my house accompanied by Dusan.

15        Q.   Were you surprised to see all your neighbors come to your house?

16        A.   So it wasn't pleasant to see them.  I saw the people.  Some were

17     crying, and I didn't know where they were going, so ...

18        Q.   So in fact you knew that they were scared.  In fact, you

19     testified yesterday that they said, please, please, by God, if you come

20     with us, if we run into some troops, nobody would touch us; and you told

21     them that you would go with them, but if you see a van taking troops to

22     the front-line, you'll have to leave them.  So you actually knew that

23     they were quite, quite afraid of what would happen to them.  Isn't that

24     right?

25        A.   That is right.  That's how it was, and they trusted in me because

Page 5109

 1     if I had gone with them all the way to Kladanj, nothing would have

 2     happened to them because that's what I was like.

 3        Q.   So did you do anything to inquire with the authorities as to what

 4     was to become of the group?

 5        A.   No.  I never went to see the authorities.  I don't even know

 6     where they had their facilities.

 7        Q.   Did you offer any of your neighbors the chance to stay in your

 8     home?

 9        A.   No.  I couldn't do that because you couldn't know what kind of

10     soldiers could come there, and my wife was alone at home, so I didn't

11     dare do that.

12        Q.   So you knew, then, that these people were in danger, and you

13     feared that the danger that might befall them might also befall your

14     family; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   So what were they in danger of?  Why were they in danger?

17        A.   When they were with me, they had nothing to fear.  There was no

18     other danger apart from those two from Banja, and nobody would have done

19     anything to them all the way to Sase because I was there.

20        Q.   Sir, would the villagers have been safe staying in your village?

21     I believe you just said that in your home, you feared that not only would

22     they have been at risk but, also, then also your family would have been

23     at risk.  So what were they at risk of?

24        A.   Because I didn't know which soldiers could have come that way.

25     As far as me and my neighbors are concerned, they could have stayed there

Page 5110

 1     throughout the war, but, you know, some other people may have come there.

 2        Q.   Sir, so is it your evidence that more than 30 of your neighbors

 3     left their homes on foot during the armed conflict and that you did not

 4     know why they were leaving?

 5        A.   I know that there weren't more than 30 because a number of men

 6     stayed behind in the woods, and I know them all by name, and I told the

 7     women, also, Don't tell anyone that your men stayed behind hiding in the

 8     woods because some soldiers may come and mistreat you.  There was

 9     Amir Kurspahic and Mesa, his two sons, Dzemail's two sons, and two

10     others.

11        Q.   Sir, in fact, you did know, didn't you, that the Bosnian Muslims

12     were being targeted in a campaign of ongoing ethnic cleansing in your

13     area, and that is why the Bosnian Muslims from Koritnik had to flee.  You

14     did know that, didn't you?

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, calls for legal conclusion.  I believe

17     this is terms of art of the legal nature that -- [overlapping speakers]

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  An objection has been raised,

19     and I need to consider it.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, and I think I finished the objection,

21     just that it calls for legal conclusion as to ethnic cleansing and all

22     this other stuff, so I think that that aspect is objectionable.

23             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours --

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What is he got about that?  It's a matter of

25     fact as far as I see it.  Have you ever done adjudicated facts,

Page 5111

 1     Mr. Ivetic?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, I have, Your Honour.  You know that quite well

 3     in the other cases I've had with you, we've done adjudicated facts.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We've done adjudicated facts, yes.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  That's what I mean.  It's a matter of legal term of

 6     art.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, I don't think it is at all.  I think it's a

 8     question of fact.

 9             Let the witness answer the question.

10             MS. MARCUS:

11        Q.   Sir, let me put the question to you again.  In fact, you did

12     know, didn't you, that the Bosnian Muslims were being targeted in a

13     campaign of ongoing ethnic cleansing in your area, and that is why the

14     Bosnian Muslims from Koritnik had to flee.  You did know that, didn't

15     you?

16        A.   Probably that's why they left.  They were most afraid when they

17     heard about the White Eagles, and they -- but they didn't have to fear

18     any of our villagers because nobody would have done anything to them.

19        Q.   But you knew as you walked with them that at some point you were

20     going to leave them, and you knew that they might face some awful fate

21     thereafter; isn't that correct?

22        A.   Yes, I feared that, but when they -- when I learned from the SUP

23     that they would proceed on foot, then I thought, well, let them go

24     and ...

25        Q.   Now, both your statement, which we've just admitted, as well as

Page 5112

 1     your testimony yesterday, you said that you didn't know what ultimately

 2     happened to them, that you have no idea.  So is it your evidence as you

 3     sit here today that you do not know that the Bosniak civilians from

 4     Koritnik were burned to death in a house on Pionirska Street shortly

 5     after you escorted them out of Koritnik?  Sorry, out of your village.

 6        A.   I never heard about that.  I didn't know.  I never heard that

 7     from any one of our villagers or from a soldier.  I'm sure that didn't

 8     happen because whatever happens, you hear of it, and I never learned of

 9     that.

10        Q.   So you do not know that Milan and Sredoje Lukic are being accused

11     in the context of this trial with burning to death a large number of

12     Bosniak civilians, many of whom were your neighbors from Koritnik.  Is

13     that your evidence?

14        A.   That's not known to me.  I haven't heard anything from anybody

15     about that.  Milan was at Sjemec in combat action.  I've repeated that

16     several times.  He could have been.  And I guarantee those people did not

17     know Milan and Milan did not know them, that group which came to Sase

18     with me.  I can guarantee you with my life.

19        Q.   Yesterday, you testified that you have good relations with some

20     of the survivors and that you socialised with one in particular just last

21     year, and you testified that:  "There were talks that I was guilty of

22     something."  What were people saying you were guilty of?

23        A.   Yes.  That I was also with them, and you know that I went back to

24     Rujiste.  This is why I brought Mirsad to my home and asked him, and he

25     said, We know that it wasn't you, we don't know who wrote about that.

Page 5113

 1     Mirsad told me that he didn't know anything about that.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. MLD24, are you aware that there have been several steps

 3     in the process of an investigation into your alleged criminal activities

 4     in the domestic courts in your country?  Are you aware of that?

 5        A.   I don't know that.  It not known to me.

 6        Q.   So you're not aware that there are proceedings in terms of an

 7     investigation directly relating to the expulsion of the Bosnian Muslim

 8     citizens from Koritnik that you're testifying to now, that there's an

 9     investigation in the state court as to these allegations.  You're not

10     aware of that.  Is that your evidence?

11        A.   I don't know that for sure.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I think I can finish in less than

13     15 minutes.  I'll aim for 10.  Would that be acceptable?

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well, yes.

15             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Sir, who contacted you about being a witness in this case?

17        A.   You mean today, here?

18        Q.   Yes, sir.  Yes, sir.

19        A.   I was approached by this lawyer, and they asked me whether to

20     come, and I said I can come and say what I know.  I cannot say anything

21     about I don't know.

22        Q.   Now, who was the lawyer who contacted you?

23        A.   Ivetic.

24        Q.   So your first contact with the Defence team for Milan Lukic was

25     with Mr. Ivetic; is that what you're saying?

Page 5114

 1        A.   Yes, initially only with him, and it was over very quickly.  It

 2     started in December, and here I am in March.

 3        Q.   So the very first time you were interviewed for this case was in

 4     December; is that your evidence?

 5        A.   I think it was in December, I believe -- well, for sure it was in

 6     December.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, we've had a statement admitted for you, which you

 8     signed.  We referred to it earlier, and it's in connection -- it's not

 9     the one from the Vasiljevic case of the year 2000.  It's one that has a

10     date from 2008.  Did you give a statement in connection with these

11     proceedings to the Defence team?

12        A.   For Mitar Vasiljevic?  No.  No.  Not at any later date.  Only

13     that was my statement.

14        Q.   Okay.  I'm sorry to cause any confusion.  In connection with this

15     case, the Lukic case, did you give a statement to the Defence team at any

16     time in the year 2008?

17        A.   No.  Only in December.  When they asked me, I answered.

18        Q.   So is it your evidence that you did not meet with anybody from

19     the Milan Lukic Defence team last summer?

20        A.   In 2008?

21        Q.   Yes.

22        A.   No.  No.  Just once, with this guy Ivetic.

23        Q.   So you --

24             MS. MARCUS:  I'm sorry.  Can I have one moment, please?

25                      [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 5115

 1             MS. MARCUS:

 2        Q.   Sorry, sir.  Now, did you ever sign a statement for this Defence

 3     team?  Did you ever sign a statement of your evidence and give that

 4     signed statement to the Defence team in this case?

 5        A.   I -- in connection with this case, I do not remember giving any

 6     statement.

 7        Q.   So you did not sign a statement on the 24th of June of 2008?

 8        A.   Twenty -- no, it wasn't Ivetic.  There was another lawyer,

 9     Vladimir Rasic, I think, so there was two -- I was contacted by them two

10     years ago, and I gave a statement then.

11        Q.   Okay, sir.  So let me return.  Perhaps I didn't ask it correctly.

12     There are a variety of members of the Milan Lukic Defence team, not only

13     those who were sitting in the courtroom, but they have other staff

14     working with them.  So my question to you was, who -- when was the first

15     time -- yeah, so when was the first time that you were contacted?  You've

16     just mentioned Vladimir Rasic.  When was the first time that

17     Vladimir Rasic contacted you?

18        A.   I think it was June, but two years ago.  I cannot remember

19     exactly.  This is the time when that Vladimir Rasic came to visit.  I

20     gave a statement, and there is my signature, I think.

21        Q.   Okay.  Did Mr. Rasic meet with you one time or more than one

22     time?

23        A.   Only once.  He came, and on the next day we came to the

24     municipality to certify it, and then he took it and left, and he gave me

25     a copy.

Page 5116

 1        Q.   And when he met with you on the first day, did he bring the

 2     statement with him for you to sign?

 3        A.   Yes.  No, not on the first day, on the second day.  First he came

 4     and asked me, and then he told me that we should go to town to give the

 5     statement and to sign it, and this was when it happened.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, in the days before you testified here, I know you've

 7     been here for some time, you were supposed to testify last week, and then

 8     your testimony got delayed.  In the days before you started testifying,

 9     did you discuss your evidence with the Defence team, the evidence in

10     relation to the Pionirska incident and the villagers from Koritnik and

11     their path through your village to Sase?  Did you discuss that with the

12     Milan Lukic Defence team?

13        A.   I told them the same things that I told here.

14             MS. MARCUS:  Can we please go into private session.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5117

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6             MS. MARCUS:

 7        Q.   Now, MLD24, as we just discussed, you were scheduled to testify

 8     last week.  Did anything happen to you over the weekend to make you

 9     request protective measures on Monday?

10             MR. ALARID:  Objection, Your Honour, relevance.  This was brought

11     up as a motions issue.  This has already been ruled on, and I think it's

12     inappropriate for cross-examination.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, unless you can persuade me otherwise, I

14     agree.

15             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, sir.  It's because the motion for protective

16     measures came so late and at the end of the court date on Thursday, we

17     still didn't have that motion, and we expected the witness to come on

18     Friday.  I'd like to know if he experienced any threats.

19             MR. ALARID:  I'm a horrible typist, Your Honour.  I put a lot of

20     the pressure on Mr. Ivetic.  We're three lawyers.  That's the truth.

21             MS. MARCUS:  This witness has been on the list since July of

22     2008.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So the question doesn't relate to the motion as

24     such.

25             MS. MARCUS:  It would relate to whether he had received any

Page 5118

 1     threats.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's right.  Yes, okay.

 3             Please answer.

 4             MS. MARCUS:

 5        Q.   Sir, did you -- did anything happen to you over the weekend to

 6     make you request protective measures on Monday?  Did you receive any

 7     threats of any kind?

 8        A.   There were no threats, but I was thinking about seeking

 9     protective measures because Muslims think every Serb is a war criminal.

10     Even if they hadn't touched a weapon, this is their attitude, and this is

11     why I sought protective measures.

12        Q.   MLD24, I'm going to put our case to you, and I will do so now and

13     ask you if you understand the assertions that I'm making.  The

14     Prosecution's position is that your information in relation to

15     Milan Lukic's alleged presence at Kopito is a fabrication.  Do you

16     understand that assertion?

17        A.   This is not fabricated.  This is exactly how it was.  He was at

18     Kopito those days 1.000 percent.  His parents would not have cried if he

19     hadn't been there those days when those people were killed.

20        Q.   Our position is also that in fact you were complicit in the

21     expulsions from Koritnik, you knew what was going to happen to those

22     people, and you have come here just to try to help your friend, in fact

23     your relative, Milan Lukic.  Do you understand?

24        A.   Can you -- I didn't -- can you repeat the question, please.

25        Q.   Our case is that, in fact, you were complicit in the expulsions

Page 5119

 1     from Koritnik, that you knew what was going to happen to those persons,

 2     and that you've come here just to try to help your friend, in fact your

 3     relative, Milan Lukic.

 4        A.   I didn't know what was going to happen.  I didn't drive those

 5     people out, no.  The only thing is that I came to Sase with them.  I

 6     never knew that would happen to them.  I never heard about that happening

 7     for the four years of the war, and this is the first time I hear what

 8     happened, and I heard something on television about things.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you very much, sir.  I have no further

10     questions, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Just briefly, Your Honours.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

14        Q.   Hello, again, sir.  It's my turn again to speak with you.  I will

15     be brief, and I'll try to work back from where the Prosecution left off.

16             Sir, the Prosecution's making various accusations against you

17     relating to your efforts to assist members of the Kurspahic family, as

18     you said, on their request.  I have a simple question --

19             MS. MARCUS:  Objection, Your Honours, is counsel testifying or is

20     the witness going to testify?

21             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I object to this objection.  This is --

22     I'm restating --

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  [Overlapping speakers] ... Let me see -- just a

24     minute.

25             Yes, continue with the question, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 5120

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   As I was saying, sir, the Prosecution is making various

 3     allegations against you relating to your effort to assist members of the

 4     Kurspahic family that you have testified to.  I have a simple question

 5     for you.  Would you agree to confront any member of the Kurspahic family

 6     willing to accuse you face to face in this courtroom?

 7        A.   I'm ready to say this anywhere, in our court, domestic courts,

 8     together with Mirza and his mother Esma.  There are many other people

 9     like Asim, but he's dead.  I would dare to give this statement and to

10     confront them.  They can say whatever they like, but I know how things

11     were, and I would say it like it was.

12        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, if we could move along.  With respect to

13     your change of the date of birth in the official records of where you

14     live, did you follow all the official administrative steps with the

15     relevant authorities in regards to that change of date of birth

16     information?

17        A.   That's correct.  We have the municipality; we have the courts; we

18     have the police; we have the registrar of birth, deaths.  And if I didn't

19     go through a procedure, nobody would have been entitled to give me those

20     documents.  That was correct.  We have the police; we had the court; the

21     registrar's office; and the priest.  I found this information up there in

22     the church.  I -- 1.000 percent, I would not have been issued one of

23     those documents if everything was not okay because they would have lost

24     their jobs, any of them, if they had proceeded against the law.

25        Q.   Thank you, sir.

Page 5121

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Now, if we can call up -- if we can call up

 2     Exhibit P252, but I would ask that it not be published to the gallery or

 3     to the public in so far as it contains the identifying information for

 4     this witness.

 5        Q.   And once this document comes up, sir, this is the document that

 6     the Prosecution used yesterday relating to your change of date of birth

 7     request.  Once the document comes up, I'll ask that we focus on the

 8     signature of the official who signed and issued this certificate on the

 9     bottom right-hand corner.

10        A.   I can't see it.  I know that it was issued at SUP, my identity

11     card and the court, and the registrar was Dragana Bozic.  I remember at

12     the registrar's office and the municipality, the chief registrar was

13     Todo -- I can't recall his family name.  He came from Sarajevo.  He was a

14     refugee, and he could have stopped the whole proceedings had it not been

15     okay.

16        Q.   Okay, sir.  Now, I'm asking you to focus on what's on the screen

17     in front of you right now.  This is the signature with the seal of the

18     official authorities of Visegrad, now I ask you based --

19        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... Kos Ermin.  Well, I don't

20     know him.  I cannot tell you.

21        Q.   The question I had is very simple.  Based upon your knowledge of

22     the first and last names of individuals in Visegrad and in Bosnia, for

23     that matter, can you tell based upon the name Kos, Ermin that we see on

24     the screen what ethnicity this official of the legitimate authorities of

25     Visegrad who issued this certificate in the year 2000, and I believe it

Page 5122

 1     was 1 or 2, what ethnicity would this individual be?  Would he be Muslim,

 2     Serb, or Croat?

 3        A.   Ermin Kos is a Muslim first and family name.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, we see here the seal that was issued on this

 5     document.  Can you make out what is the official seal of the government

 6     authorities of Visegrad?

 7        A.   This is a very poor copy.  I can't make out anything but Kos and

 8     Naceknika or the head, and the family name.  I do not have my spectacles.

 9        Q.   If we can zoom in more on the stamp, the stamp somewhere, do you

10     see the double-headed eagle in the official seal?

11             MS. MARCUS:  Objection, leading.  He just said he couldn't see

12     anything.  Now you're telling him what he's supposed to see.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, the document speaks for itself.  It

14     was introduced by the counsel.  I can't see how she can possibly say that

15     something that is readily apparent on the page is not something I can ask

16     questions about, to direct him to a particular part of the seal.

17             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I'm not sure that anything --

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, but you should ask him, what does he see,

19     because you can't lead in re-examination, Mr. Ivetic.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I'm not leading.  The document is

21     leading.  The document that they introduced is the document I want to ask

22     him to compare that symbol to the other symbols he testified about.

23     That's what I want to ask him, so I have to direct him to a part of the

24     page.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You have to ask him what he cease on it.

Page 5123

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 2        Q.   What do you see on the seal, in the middle of the seal of this

 3     official certificate from the authorities of Visegrad?

 4        A.   Believe me, I cannot see anything.  I cannot make out any

 5     letters.  There's just a blotch.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  All the way back out, sorry, to the full document.

 7     I thought there was another seal, but I could be mistaken.  No, that's

 8     the newest seal.

 9             Let's try and zoom in on the top right corner, the other seal

10     that's in purple on here.  Let's see if that one's better.

11        Q.   Can you make out the seal, the part that's in the centre, the

12     emblem, in this stamp?

13        A.   I can't see this either.  I told you that my sight is poor.  My

14     whole life I've been working close to an open fire, and this has weakened

15     my site.  I can tell what you I see you, but I cannot make out anything

16     except that the colour is purple.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. IVETIC:  And if we can -- we're done with this document.

19        Q.   Let me ask you this:  You asked about an eagle emblem in your

20     cross-examination.  Could you tell me, what kind of emblem did the

21     official police forces of the Republika Srpska in Bosnia have on their

22     uniforms and on the hoods of their vehicles after the war, that is to

23     say, after the Dayton Accords all the way up until just this past year, I

24     believe, or it might have been a year and a half ago when they changed

25     it?

Page 5124

 1        A.   Well, during the war, I saw this eagle on sleeves and on caps.

 2     That's what I know, and I don't know anything later.  I'm not interested

 3     in taking a look at those emblems on police vehicles when I come to town.

 4     Of course they have the emblems of Republika Srpska, of course.

 5        Q.   And yesterday, the Prosecution repeatedly asked if named persons

 6     were a part of Milan Lukic's group.  Did you ever, yesterday, mean to say

 7     that Milan Lukic had or was part of any paramilitary or criminal group?

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Objection, leading.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, I permit that.

10             Answer it.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw any paramilitary.  I

12     never heard about any such.  I'm a hundred percent sure.

13             MR. IVETIC:

14        Q.   And now the Prosecution asked you about the allegations against

15     Mr. Milan Lukic as to what they claim was a house burning to have

16     occurred in the Pionirska Street.  Did you ever have occasion to hear

17     that Mitar Vasiljevic was alleged to have been involved in that purported

18     incident?

19        A.   I never heard that either.  I never heard about that house

20     burning.  I didn't see it burning.  I've been passing the

21     Pionirska Street and never noticed there were houses without roof tiles,

22     but nothing burnt.  It would be difficult for a single building to be

23     burnt down because houses were close to one another, and everything else

24     would have been burnt down.  In the town, there were no burning houses.

25     No Muslims, no Serb houses were burnt in the town of Visegrad, maybe in

Page 5125

 1     the outlying area, somewhere else.  I don't know.

 2                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

 3                           [Defence counsel confer]

 4             MR. IVETIC:

 5        Q.   Sir, did you have occasion to hear about any mishap that

 6     Mitar Vasiljevic had relative to his health and well-being during 1992?

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Objection, beyond the scope of cross.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, it's beyond the scope.  Next question.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Sir, I thank you on behalf of the Defence of

10     Milan Lukic for coming here and testifying, and I wish you a safe return

11     back to your home, and please give my regards to your wife, and I hope

12     that she heals up from her injuries.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, we thank you for coming.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  If I can say a couple

16     of words.  I don't want to --

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, we don't allow witnesses to volunteer

18     statements.  Witnesses come to answer questions.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay, thank you.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  [Previous translation continues] ... I want to

21     thank you for coming to give the evidence, and you may now leave.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Now, the next witness, Mr. Alarid, is ...

24             MR. ALARID:  Private session, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session, yes.

Page 5126

 1             MR. ALARID:  The next witness we would call is --

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Closed Session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5127











11  Pages 5127-5196 redacted. Closed session.















Page 5197

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 6th day of March,

15                           2009, at 8.50 a.m.