Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6857

 1                           Tuesday, 7 April 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.59 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  Just a preliminary matter.

 7     Your Honours, Friday I made an oral motion to remove VG-145 from the

 8     Prosecution witness list for its rebuttal case.  The events are recent,

 9     and I will not recount them other than to say I took this step when the

10     witness, just before testifying, demanded that he and his family be

11     relocated to a different country.  The Chamber granted my application, I

12     was informed last evening that VG-145 initiated contact with our Sarajevo

13     field office late yesterday to express his regret about his conduct and

14     to express his willingness to come before the Chamber and testify

15     honestly and without any preconditions about what he knows about this

16     case.

17             Given these recent events, I think I would be remiss if I did not

18     did anything other than to suggest to the Chamber that it must approach

19     his evidence with caution.  He is someone who has sought personal gain

20     and advantage from these proceedings.

21             It is for these very qualities that I submit he was first

22     approached with a proposal to give purgered testimony.  Having said that

23     I would also be remiss if I did not do everything within my power to

24     bring all reliable evidence before the Chamber to place it in the best

25     position to fairly and justly adjudicate this case.

Page 6858

 1             Despite the despicable conduct of VG-145 there is evidence that

 2     he has to give which is reliable.  The map he says was drawn by

 3     Milan Lukic has been examined by a handwriting expert who says that it

 4     probably was, in fact, drawn by Milan Lukic.  He also provided a blank

 5     pro forma statement weeks before a completed version of that statement

 6     was passed to the Prosecution within the full view of the Bench.  A

 7     meeting he had with MLD1 is corroborated with footage from a security

 8     camera.  VG-145's change of mind and willingness to now come before the

 9     Chamber and subject him stove rigorous examination and cross-examination

10     ensures that the Chamber will be placed in a position to make its own

11     careful assessment of him, and it ensures that the rights of Milan Lukic

12     to confront him and test the serious allegations he makes.

13             For reasons that will be fully set forth in the final trial

14     brief, the different alibis of Milan Lukic are actually interconnected.

15     It is my view that if the Chamber credits his evidence related to the map

16     and the pro forma statement, which I believe it can do because the

17     reliability of that evidence does not wholly depend on the credibility.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, I don't think there's any need to

19     address us on how his evidence is to be treated.

20             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  So Your Honour, I'm asking leave

21     to re-add VG-1 45 to the Prosecution list in its rebuttal case.  I have

22     asked a member of my staff to be in contact with VWS to make a

23     preliminary plans so that to avoid any delay should the Chamber grant

24     this application.  Of course, I will not -- I've asked him to allow him

25     to board any plane until the Chamber makes a decision on my request.  So

Page 6859

 1     I ask the Chamber to give serious consideration to re-adding VG-145.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  One very major objection we would is to that is as

 4     Your Honours know, I'm here solo.  Mr. Alarid who had prepared for VG-145

 5     when he was initially scheduled to testify is not here, will not be here

 6     this week at all as Your Honours already know from the filings we've

 7     already done.  Due to the history of the case, obviously we decided that

 8     it would be improper for me to cross-examine this witness based upon the

 9     allegations this witness has made.  Therefore, we are in a position that

10     if he is to be brought -- if the Trial Chamber is going to consider this

11     application, by the Prosecution, we have no one here available to

12     cross-examine him.  And that would be very unfair and unjust to the

13     Defence particularly in light of the evidence that has been led as to

14     this individual and how we have shed light on his -- on the nature of his

15     allegations to the point that Your Honours have seen --

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, we'll give our decision within an

17     hour or two.

18             Please call the next witness, I think it's a Court witness.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             MR. COLE:  I wonder if I could be heard as a preliminary matter,

22     Your Honours, while the witness is being brought in.  Now, this witness,

23     Mr. Kurspahic has been recalled to be asked questions about the victims

24     of the Pionirska fire.  Just in the event that it might be suggested by

25     the Defence in the event, Your Honours, that it might be suggested by the

Page 6860

 1     Defence that the information provided by Mr. Kurspahic in a recent phone

 2     call is all new material, I should just like to point out the following:

 3     He testified in the Mitar Vasiljevic trial in 2001, and much of the

 4     information --

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole, I have developed the practice that

 6     interventions of the kind that you are making now should be made during

 7     the course of the evidence and not before, when it arises, and I'd prefer

 8     if you would wait until it comes up in during cross-examination.

 9             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, the reason that I was raising it now, it

10     was effectively a prelude to asking that there be no leading questions

11     from counsel because of the situation of the information that they have

12     available.  Just to save time in due course me standing up and objecting.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, well, I will make that clear.  In any

14     event, that's the rule.

15             MR. IVETIC:  But, Your Honour, he is being recalled for the

16     cross-examination by the Defence, so I'm entitled to lead him.  He was a

17     Prosecution witness.  When new information developed, we asked to recall

18     him, so he is still essentially being recalled for cross-examination.

19     That is the only reason we brought him here.  We've already had him

20     testify once.  We have want to ask him about this new information that he

21     has since he testified here.

22             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, that is the reason that I started out on

23     this brief introduction.  The Defence have had --

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He is a Chamber witness.  He is a Chamber

25     witness, yes.

Page 6861

 1             MR. COLE:  Well, what I'm trying to say, sir --

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I think either party may put any questions to

 3     him.  Either party.  He is a witness of the Court, and I will allow

 4     either party to put any questions to him whether it is seen as

 5     examination-in-chief or as leading.  He is properly a Chamber witness and

 6     therefore liable to be questioned by either party.

 7             Let the witness make the declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  HUSO KURSPAHIC.

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may sit.  I think it's appropriate for the

13     Defence to begin.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And for purposes of the

15     protection of other witnesses who have been subjected to protective

16     measures, one moment, I forgot one, I would like to have a pseudonym

17     sheet before the witness so he can know which witness I'm referring to

18     when I use the pseudonyms as these proceedings are being led in open

19     question.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

21        Q.   Sir, first of all, let me introduce myself.  My name is

22     Dan Ivetic, and I'm one of the attorneys for the Defence of Milan Lukic,

23     and certain revelations have happened since the last time you were here

24     which we were trying to make sense of and that's why we are here to help

25     us understand that new evidence.  Now, while we are waiting for the sheet

Page 6862

 1     to reach you, sir, first of all, am I correct that you are not seeking

 2     protective measures, and I can refer to you by name?

 3        A.   Yes, you can.

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And I understand we can take a copy of the

 5     pseudonym sheet, so I will ask you my preliminary questions; first of

 6     all, sir, has anyone met with you to prepare or proof you for your

 7     testimony prior to today for this testimony?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And, sir, did you, in fact, have a telephone

10     discussion with the Office of the Prosecution within the last several

11     months?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And could you tell us about each and every telephone conversation

14     you've had with staff from the Office of the Prosecution of this Tribunal

15     in the past several months?

16        A.   It only happened once and it was a brief conversation.  I cannot

17     recall the exact date.

18        Q.   Sir, we've been provided with information from the Office of the

19     Prosecution that, in fact, on March -- on or about March the 4th of 2009,

20     they had a telephonic discussion with you.  Does that refresh your

21     recollection as to when the conversation would have been had between you

22     and the Prosecution?

23        A.   Most probably it was on that day.  I really don't know.

24        Q.   All right.  Sir, I see that the pseudonym sheet has made its way

25     to you.  You see there pseudonyms for several, I believe it is maybe,

Page 6863

 1     five or six named persons, I believe all those persons are known to you.

 2     I would ask for their protection that we honour their protective measures

 3     and we use their pseudonyms there instead of their names.  So, sir, you

 4     can keep that sheet in front of you so that you can refer to it if need

 5     be.

 6             Now, if we can return to this telephone call with the Office of

 7     the Prosecutor.  Do you recall or was it represented to you who from the

 8     Office of the Prosecutor was on the phone with you?

 9        A.   I don't know who the interpreter was, although they introduced

10     themselves.  I think there was a Mr. Steven [phoen]who was there, and a

11     female interpreter interpreting his words.  I wasn't very interested in

12     who was representing whom.

13        Q.   That's fair enough, sir.  Now, when they called you, did they

14     tell you the subject matter or reason for which they were calling?

15        A.   I didn't understand it fully well.  I think they said that there

16     might be a need for me to appear before the Court again and that some

17     things may need clarification.  I said that if need be, I'm prepared to

18     appear again.

19        Q.   In the course of that telephone conversation with the Office of

20     the Prosecutor was it made known to you that there had been a recent

21     filing made by the Defence of Milan Lukic alleging problems with the list

22     of victims, and that certain victims were alleged to be alive?

23        A.   It was precisely about the list and the names of individuals.

24     That's why I'm here today.

25        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, let me take a step backwards first.  Are

Page 6864

 1     you familiar with the indictment handed down by this Tribunal against

 2     Milan Lukic, including the Annex A, which would be the annex of alleged

 3     victims from the Pionirska Street alleged incident?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And did you have an opportunity to review that Annex A list of

 6     victims prior to the time that you testified in this Tribunal last time?

 7        A.   I have that list from a previous hearing in the case of

 8     Mitar Vasiljevic.  I think some of the names have been corrected.  I

 9     don't know where the mistake occurred though.  When it took place, people

10     were uncertain who survived, who did not.  Later on some people

11     resurfaced alive.  I have a list, and I can go name by name here before

12     the Court with all the names and the houses where people lived.  I have

13     it all with me, and if necessary, I can inform the Bench.  Also I can

14     show you the whole list, and I believe it to be authentic and precise.

15        Q.   Thank you, sir, I appreciate your comments.

16             Now, before we get to all that, I'd look to ask you, since you

17     have testified, I believe, you've testified in this case, did you also

18     testify previously in one of the other cases of the Tribunal about the

19     alleged incident at Pionirska?

20        A.   Yes, I did.  In the case of Mitar Vasiljevic.  During the

21     critical period, he was near the building, and I provided a statement

22     against Mitar Vasiljevic basically; and I also, I think, on the 8th of

23     August last year, I gave a statement against Milan and Sredoje.  This

24     would be my third time.

25        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And you would agree with me that on the two

Page 6865

 1     prior occasion that is you testified before this Tribunal, you had an

 2     opportunity to correct any information on that list of victims from the

 3     Annex A of the indictment if you had known that such information was

 4     incorrect?

 5   (redacted)

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Page 6866

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 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, private session.

 5                           [Private session]

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Page 6867

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

10        Q.   And, sir, just to finish up on that point that we started on

11     before the digression.  In fact, I believe when you testified here the

12     last time you had, in fact, made some corrections or clarifications by

13     way of a proofing statement with Mr. Stevan Cole, the Office of the

14     Prosecution done just before you testified here that day; isn't that

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.  Go ahead.

17        Q.   Now, the problem that we have or the question that we have I

18     guess is related to you, I should say, is that with respect to the

19     victims, the named victims in Annex A of the indictment, we'd like to

20     know how it is possible that between 1992, and for instance when you

21     testified last here at the Tribunal, you did not know of the corrections

22     that you've now given most recently on or about March the 4th of 2009,

23     that were only -- it would seem to an outside observer those corrections

24     were only made after the filing by the Milan Lukic Defence bringing into

25     question the list, so I would like to know when you --

Page 6868

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Mr. Cole.

 2             MR. COLE:  My learned friend is doing this in a global way, in

 3     other words suggesting that they are all in the same category, and they

 4     are not.  And in fairness to the witness, they should be put individually

 5     rather than the global fashion because the witness made a number of

 6     corrections, for example, in his testimony during the Vasiljevic trial

 7     and it's not all new.  So my objection is that this should be done in an

 8     individual fashion rather than a global fashion, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, put them individually.

10             MR. IVETIC:  I will do that, Your Honours.

11             If we can call up then 1D22-900.

12        Q.   Sir, what is coming up on a screen is a document that was

13     disclosed to the Defence by the Prosecution that purports to record or

14     chronicle the clarifications resulting from your March 4th, 2009

15     telephonic discussion of a member of the Office of the Prosecution

16     although this document does not identify with whom you had the

17     conversation.

18             MR. IVETIC:  And to allay the fears of the Prosecution, this

19     ought to be the redacted version, I believe.  Let me just double-check,

20     though.

21             So we should probably not publish it until the full page comes

22     up, so I can see whether it is the redacted or the unredacted.  If you

23     just scroll down, I'll find out right away.  This is the unredacted, so

24     this actually should not be published, but it will help us to have the

25     witness have the full information before him.

Page 6869

 1        Q.   Now, sir, looking at this list, I'd first like to go through

 2     Jasmina Delija.  When is the first time that you remembered she is

 3     actually the same person as Jasmina or Mina Kurspahic as she is placed in

 4     the annex of victims?

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 6             MR. COLE:  Yes, Your Honour, you can see from the note before the

 7     witness that counsel is misrepresenting the information that's there.

 8     And I don't know whether the witness can read English, but perhaps the

 9     contents of the -- in fairness, the contents of the actual notes should

10     be put to him rather than paraphrasing the way counsel is at the moment,

11     which seems to be misrepresenting what is there.  You can see,

12     Your Honour, that that note, in fact, just gives a maiden name, not as

13     the way counsel has described it.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Let me try a different question.

15        Q.   Sir, perhaps you and I can understand ourselves better if I say

16     it this way, Jasmina Kurspahic was also known as Mina Kurspahic; isn't

17     that correct, sir?

18        A.   May I say something?  Yes, yes.

19        Q.   And Jasmina Kurspahic known as Mina Kurspahic became married and

20     her name was then Jasmina Delija; isn't that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So would you agree with me that when you say, and I'll put to you

23     what the notes from your telephonic discussions say:  The maiden name of

24     Jasmina Delija was Kurspahic; am I correct in understanding that to mean

25     that Jasmina Delija and Mina Kurspahic are the same person, sir?

Page 6870

 1        A.   Yes.  What is there to be disputed?

 2        Q.   In the --

 3        A.   There's no other Jasmina on the list.  No other

 4     Jasmina Kurspahic.  I came before the Tribunal with this document

 5     specifying the names and families from A to Z.  I can stay here for five

 6     days, if we need to clarify each and every fact.  Ask me whatever you

 7     want.

 8        Q.   I would like to ask you everything, and I will hopefully get to

 9     do that.  But you have to cooperate with me.  I will present you

10     everything, you can answer and the other side will have an opportunity to

11     ask if I've forgotten anything.  Now, the question I have for you, sir,

12     is with respect to the individual we have just mentioned, you've

13     indicated there is no other; but, sir, the same person appears as number

14     43 on the list and as number 4 on the list, Jasmina Delija,

15     Mina Kurspahic.  Now, I'd like to ask you:  Did you know of this error on

16     the list prior to your testimony last time before this Tribunal?

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole.

18             MR. COLE:  Yes, my learned friends is misrepresenting what is in

19     the indictment, what is in the note, and is with respect, I think the

20     witness is being misled.  What counsel is trying to do is to get this

21     witness to confirm that it's the same person under two different names on

22     the Annex A; but it hasn't been made clear to the witness with respect by

23     the nature of the questions.  Now, I think the first thing that needs to

24     be made clear to the witness is that counsel is referring to names on the

25     annex to the indictment, and the --

Page 6871

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I've stated at least five times, Your Honour, and

 2     Mr. Cole had adequate opportunity to do his examination --

 3             MR. COLE:  I'm objecting to counsel.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, let me hear Mr. Cole.

 5             MR. COLE:  Yes, I've lost my train of thought now, sir.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Don't allow Mr. Ivetic to have that effect on

 7     you, Mr. Cole.

 8             MR. COLE:  In fairness to the witness if counsel is suggesting

 9     that two persons in Annex A are the same person, he should put that to

10     the witness without beating around so the witness can address that

11     particularly, sir, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, I'll have to back up to see

14     the question that was posed.

15        Q.   Sir, on the list, that is to say on Annex A from the second

16     amended indictment against Milan Lukic, at position number 4 we have a

17     Jasmina Delija, and at position number 43 we have a Mina Kurspahic; and

18     I'd like to ask you given your knowledge of the names and the

19     individuals, would you agree with me that this is the same person listed

20     twice?

21        A.   Yes.  Now, is that important at all, whether one person was

22     burnt, 20 people burnt, 50 people burnt.  Mr. President, may I be allowed

23     to say this, you are tying me to a detail here.  The fact of the matter

24     is that the young girl married, changed her surname, her nickname is Mina

25     and her real name is Jasmina, so where is the problem.

Page 6872

 1        Q.   The problem is when witnesses come here and testify under oath we

 2     expect that the information is true and correct, sir, and that is what we

 3     are trying to ascertain with respect to the evidence that has been led by

 4     the Prosecution what evidence is true and correct and what is not.  And

 5     that's what we are here to help us with your knowledge, sir, and I would

 6     beg your indulgence and your patience because we will go through all of

 7     your clarifications, and I will give you an ample opportunity to explain

 8     all of them.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic, he has answered, please

10     proceed, remember you have half an hour, no more.  The same applies to

11     Mr. --

12             MR. IVETIC:  But --

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The same applies to Mr. Cole unless I give you

14     more time.

15             MR. IVETIC:  But, Your Honour, he is not a rebuttal witness.  All

16     right.  I will try and proceed through it, Your Honours.  As you can see

17     it's difficult though with the objections.

18        Q.   Now, okay, we've done that one.  Did you know about this error on

19     Annex A of the indictment prior to your testimony last time?

20        A.   I didn't know.  Had I known, I would have put it right, so what

21     is the problem now?  I didn't add to the list those 22 names that I could

22     have, I'm here to clear things up, to tell you what the facts were so

23     that we can establish the truth, the real truth.  That is why I am here

24     today, sir.  Now I allow you to ask me precisely the questions you want

25     me to answer.  I've been engaged in matters like this.  I've done jobs

Page 6873

 1     like this for 20 years, so I know what all this is about but go ahead,

 2     ask me precisely.

 3        Q.   With all due respect, I've been asking you precisely.  And let's

 4     move along precisely.  Now, if we look at item D on your list, you

 5     state -- pardon me, the Prosecution represents as to your statement:  "He

 6     believes that Aner Kurspahic, son of Latifa Kurspahic is alive and in

 7     Austria."  Now --

 8        A.   Yes, and he is not on the list.  He is not on the list.

 9        Q.   Sir, he is number 15 on the list.  He is on the list.  Let me

10     finish my questions, and we'll get through this much easier.  Now, you

11     identify this as the son of Latifa Kurspahic, are we to assume from this

12     information that you know Latifa Kurspahic is alive?

13        A.   Yes, she is alive, living in Austria, has two daughters.  She is

14     living in Austria with her two daughters in Austria.  What more do you

15     want to know?

16        Q.   And now with respect to Meva Kurspahic, at H on your list; isn't

17     it correct that this is the wife of Hasan, the mother Omer, and the

18     grandmother of Aner?

19        A.   I haven't got that list, what list are you look at, sir, because

20     I don't have a list like that, and I never did.

21        Q.   The one in front of you.

22        A.   You are asking me some things that are aren't linked to this

23     trial.  You can't do that.

24        Q.   Sir, let me read to you what the Office of the Prosecution says

25     what you told them, and we'll see whether it's a left thing or not.  And

Page 6874

 1     I quote, "He," meaning you, "is aware of Meva Kurspahic, mother of Omer

 2     and Fikret, who is now dead, but whom he believes was not killed in the

 3     Pionirska fire."

 4             Now do we understand each other about which Meva we are talking

 5     about, sir?

 6        A.   Yes, and she wasn't burnt in the fire.  She died in Sarajevo and

 7     was buried after that.  So where is this Meva on the list?  Show me.

 8     I've never seen that list.

 9        Q.   Sir, sir, she is number 42 on the list.  Now, sir, given what

10     you've testified about here today now as to these individuals, would you

11     agree with me that we can take off of the list of victims Meva, Latifa --

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   -- her daughters.  Wait until I finish, sir.

14        A.   Yes.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can you give us the numbers, Mr. Ivetic.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Actually, no, I can't, Your Honours, because of the

17     duplication of names on the list there is a submission we've filed

18     pursuant to the sworn testimony of CW1, protected witness CW1, which

19     clarifies her testimony; so I would refer to that submission as to the

20     names of persons who follow --

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well, proceed.

22             MR. IVETIC:

23        Q.   Now, you would agree with me that that entire family did not

24     perish in Pionirska; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6875

 1        Q.   And did you happen to be at Meva Kurspahic's funeral that

 2     occurred in the past five years in Sarajevo?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, when or how long have you known that the direct family of

 5     Omer Kurspahic did not perish in Pionirska?  Was it before either of the

 6     two times you testified here previously?

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole.

 8             MR. COLE:  Yes.  I wonder, Your Honour, if we could just be clear

 9     when we talk about a whole family, it's a rather indistinct expression.

10     If we could know exactly which members he is referring to, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic, that's a fair question.

12             MR. IVETIC:  It is.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Why don't you just name the persons in the

14     family that you have in mind.

15             MR. IVETIC:

16        Q.   Sir, for those persons who are not familiar with the names of the

17     various Kurspahic family, I will have to go through all of them, would

18     you agree with me that the family of Omer Kurspahic, that is to say his

19     wife, Lejla; his two daughters; his son, Aner; his mother, Meva; his

20     father, Hasan were not at Koritnik at the time of the alleged Pionirska

21     fire and, therefore, did not perish in the fire as is alleged in the

22     indictment and in the list of victims?

23        A.   That's right, they weren't, but I haven't got the list, may I

24     take a look at the list on the screen and see who compiled the list?  The

25     Prosecution's here.  Could I have the list, could they show me the list

Page 6876

 1     or the Trial Chamber, so that I can see the list because you keep asking

 2     me the number based on the list and I don't have it in front of me.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So you are trying --

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, just a minute, please.  You will

 6     be shown the list as it appears in the annex.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Unfortunately I only have a clean English version of

 8     the same, but I believe the names should be able to be read, they are the

 9     same in B/C/S, in English, the names.

10        Q.   Now, sir, the question I had for you was with respect to this

11     family --

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just let him look at the list for a minute or

13     two.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.  Now, tell me what number

15     Aner is under and Meva?  I'm asking the Defence.

16             MR. IVETIC:

17        Q.   Aner is number 15 on the list.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please speak into the

19     microphone.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic, you are being asked to speak into

21     the microphone.

22             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.

23        Q.   Aner is number 15 on the list.

24        A.   Aner, I have never seen this list before.  It's not something I

25     had, and I certainly didn't write it.  And the truth is, that he wasn't

Page 6877

 1     there, but Milan Lukic took him out of the car with his father and uncle

 2     and Milan took him away, straightaway.  Yes, go ahead.

 3        Q.   Before we begin, before we began I asked you if you were familiar

 4     with the indictment and Annex A the list of victims in the indictment and

 5     whether you had reviewed the same prior to testifying, sir.  And you had

 6     answered in the affirmative.  That is a public document.  It's a document

 7     that was published.  It is a document that we are defending in this case.

 8     This is what the Prosecution provided us as to the victims of the alleged

 9     incident, and I'd like to go through with you, sir.

10        A.   This is a mistake that the Prosecution made and failed to put

11     right on time.  But I stand by everything I've said here.  It is correct

12     and truthful, and I'm here to establish the truth and I have absolutely

13     no reason to add anything or take anything away, add a name or subtract a

14     name.  That's in nobody's interest.  It's not in the interests of this

15     Tribunal or the Defence or anybody else.

16        Q.   With all deference to you I'm trying not to interrupt you, sir,

17     but we have a limited time.  And we have a long way to go.  And I would

18     ask you to look at the list that has now been provided for you, and you

19     ask me to identify where persons are listed.  I already told you about

20     Aner.  We have Latifa at 36; Lejla at 37; we have 42, Meva; we've had

21     some evidence that 38, Majda, might be the other daughter of Latifa; we

22     have Hasan at number 26.  We have --

23        A.   Hasan disappeared.  Hasan went missing.  There are two Hasans:

24     Hasan Kurspahic, Hajra's son, and this is Alija's son, Fikret Alija.

25        Q.   Sir --

Page 6878

 1        A.   Yes, go ahead.

 2        Q.   Before we --

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic, let's get some order into it.  Let's

 4     start with what you are going to put to him those names on the list that

 5     you say should not be there, you are starting first with 15, Aner.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I'm starting by the categories of his

 7     clarifications, Your Honour, that are in the document on the screen right

 8     now.  I don't know necessarily that they were all be on the list to take

 9     off, that's why I'm asking the gentleman what he knew.  What I'm more

10     concerned about is when did he find out this information because again

11     we've had witnesses come here and testify and affirm the very same annex

12     on multiple occasions.  And now after we do some investigations, we find

13     out that they have known that persons shouldn't be on the list.  That is

14     what the real crux of our submission is to find out when they knew this

15     information, and whether, therefore, the testimony that they gave at this

16     Tribunal is --

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You have already asked him that, haven't you?

18             MR. IVETIC:  With respect to this particular family, I have asked

19     and he has not answered.  I've asked about the Jasmina Delija, and he has

20     answered.  So I'm going through all his clarifications to find out

21     exactly --

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But go through them one by one, and let's

23     proceed that way.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Where are you now?

Page 6879

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I'm right now going to I'm at D on his list, which

 2     is where we started talking about Aner Kurspahic, the family, the direct

 3     family of Omer Kurspahic.

 4        Q.   And, sir, when did you know that that family was not a family

 5     that had been in Koritnik at the time of the alleged Pionirska incident

 6     and, therefore, could not have been alleged at the alleged Pionirska

 7     incident?  When did you know that, sir?

 8        A.   Afterwards when Hasan and Meva returned from Austria was it in

 9     1997 thereabouts when I met Hasan, and he has died since.  I didn't know

10     before that.

11        Q.   So sometime in 1997.  Now, if I can ask you about the

12     individuals --

13        A.   I don't know exactly, so don't insist on that.

14        Q.   Let me clarify to you.  Was it before you testified here, sir?

15        A.   Afterwards.  After the first time.  I don't know, I really don't

16     know, and this is the first time that I'm looking at this list here.

17        Q.   Let me ask you another question.  You say that Meva and Hasan

18     returned from Austria, am I correct that they resided in Sarajevo?

19        A.   Yes, afterwards, 1997 or 1998 when they returned.  They lived in

20     Sarajevo.  They died in Sarajevo, both of them, and were buried in

21     Sarajevo.

22        Q.   With respect to the names on the pseudonym sheet now, sir, that

23     is VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, and VG-13, do you know if any of those other

24     relatives or persons of yours had contact with and knew of the fact that

25     this family had not been in Koritnik and had not been at the Pionirska

Page 6880

 1     incident?

 2        A.   I don't know whether they know that.  I really couldn't say

 3     because I don't know.

 4        Q.   Fair enough.  Did you attend any funerals for either Meva or

 5     Hasan?

 6        A.   I've already said where I was, yes, at both funerals.  They are

 7     relatives of mine, yes, I did attend.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.  What about VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, and VG-13, were

 9     they at either of those funerals, sir?

10        A.   I don't know.

11        Q.   Thank you.  We can move along.  Now, with respect to these

12     clarifications that you gave to the Office of the Prosecution on the

13     4th of March, 2009, have you talked with VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, or VG-31

14     [sic] about those clarifications and corrections?

15        A.   No, no, I didn't do anything.  They are separate, I don't know

16     when they came, when they were here.  I don't know that.  I know when I

17     was here and what I said, and I'm here to confirm everything that I've

18     already said.  You can ask me everything from A to Z, one by one, name

19     and surname and that's how you'll get the exact names, the first and last

20     names, and I'll state them before this Trial Chamber.  One by one from A

21     to Z from 1 the first number to whatever the last number is.

22        Q.   Staying with VG-18, VG-78, VG-84 and VG-31 [sic] did you have

23     occasion to see them at a protest organised by Bakira Hasecic in the

24     village of Koritnik on or about March the 9th, 2009?

25        A.   What date did you say?

Page 6881

 1        Q.   On or about March 9th?

 2             MR. COLE:  Your Honour.  I understand the purpose this witness is

 3     here is to discuss the victims and the list of names on the schedule.

 4     Now, the Defence had ample opportunity when Mr. Kurspahic was here last

 5     time in September to cross-examine, and they did cross-examine; but they

 6     didn't ask anything about victims.  I'm going to suggest, Your Honour,

 7     that we don't have a lot of time, that they confine their

 8     cross-examination now to the matters that Your Honours have pointed to,

 9     the matters that have been raised in the note that's before the witness,

10     rather than digressing on to other witnesses.  We'll be here all day,

11     sir.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I thought that truth finding was the

13     main job of this Tribunal, and I, for one, am appalled by the Office of

14     the Prosecution tactics in this case with respect to the major element of

15     this indictment that the list of victims is finding out to have persons

16     that did not perish, or are alive.  That is an affront to this system,

17     and I don't know what the Prosecution is afraid of, but I want to find

18     out the truth of all of this and --

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, thank you.

20             MR. IVETIC: -- ask my questions.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic, you may continue.

22             MR. IVETIC:

23        Q.   And you said there were two -- first of all, question I wanted to

24     ask you before, with respect to VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, and/or VG-31 [sic],

25     did you have contact with any of them at a protest, organised by

Page 6882

 1     Bakira Hasecic of the associating of women victims of war held in the

 2     village of Koritnik, in the municipality of Visegrad on or about the 9th

 3     of March, 2009, less than one month ago?

 4        A.   I was in Koritnik, sir.  I was in my village Koritnik from where

 5     these victims were from on the 8th of April, and we had all survived, all

 6     those who had survived were there; and all the locals of Koritnik were in

 7     the village and we commemorated that day at each individual house.  And

 8     I'd like to ask the President of this Tribunal to take a look at this

 9     piece of paper where we were:  Every house is marked here, the family,

10     the individuals, the first and last names, and the number of people who

11     died in the house; so if you need this I'll help you there.

12        Q.   I really must insist that you answer my question.  Did you have

13     contact with VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, and/or VG-13 when you were in Koritnik?

14        A.   Yes.  Yes.  I'm not hiding anything.  They are my relatives.

15     Yes, I have contact with them all the time.

16        Q.   Did you at that time talk with them about clarifications that

17     needed to be made, correction that needed to be made, persons that were

18     wrongfully on the list of victims, sir?  Did you have conversations with

19     them at that time, sir?

20        A.   No, and I don't think they know about it either.  I can guarantee

21     with my life, they don't know about this list.  I know that I've never

22     seen this list before.

23        Q.   Sir, they were present, at least some of them were presented,

24     with this list and affirmed it on behalf of the Prosecution; and I have

25     evidence from another witness that, in fact, they were present at some of

Page 6883

 1     the funerals and, therefore, know precisely what the persons we've

 2     already talked about that they are alive and not on the list, sir; so I

 3     take umbrance [sic] with that assertion that is contrary to the evidence.

 4     But let me please focus us --

 5        A.   What, which?

 6             MR. COLE:  My learned friend is giving evidence from where he

 7     stands at the bar, and I would just ask that he put proper questions to

 8     the witness and treat the witness with respect, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.  No comments, just proceed with

10     the questions and we'll get on more quicker.

11             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  It's very clear I've been trying to

12     treat the witness with the utmost of respect and not trying to interrupt

13     him, but that is very serious matter and very serious consequences.

14        Q.   Now, sir, you mentioned that Hasan disappeared and went missing

15     and we are talking now about Alija's son.

16        A.   Never said that.  That's not what it says.  Hasan Kurspahic,

17     Hajra's son, he was the one.  All right.

18        Q.   He wasn't at Pionirska either, is that your testimony?

19        A.   He was, and he disappeared.  He was burnt, Hajra's son.

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... item number C on your list,

21     sir.  I'm going to read it to you, it says one of his sisters who

22     perished in the Pionirska fire was known by the name of Hana Kurspahic

23     and also Hasiba Kurspahic.  Is that a correction you made with the

24     Prosecution on or about the 4th of March, 2009?

25             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, that mis-characterizes what is on the

Page 6884

 1     document.  I heard my learned friends say correction, now, that's hardly

 2     a correction giving another name that a person is known by, so I would

 3     object to it being characterized that way, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hana Kurspahic, they call her Hana;

 6     but her real name is Hasiba, it's the same person, and it's my sister.

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   And would VG-18, VG-78, VG-13, VG-84, would they all know about

 9     this same name being applied to the same person?

10        A.   Well, I don't know whether they know her real name.  Hasiba is

11     her real name, Hana is what we called her, everybody called her Hana.

12     But Hasiba is her real name, her full name, and she was always called

13     Hana.

14        Q.   Sir, sir, I really must insist, we don't have all the time in the

15     world.  I need to have answers to my very precise questions.  I've been

16     trying very hard to be very precise.  To the extent that Hana and Hasiba

17     are both listed as separate persons on the index in the indictment at

18     numbers 25 and 27, I believe, would you agree with me that that is an

19     error on the list in the indictment and therefore one of those names is a

20     duplicate?

21             MR. COLE:  Of course, Your Honours, there may be many persons

22     with the same name as in the case of Hana, and I think in fairness that

23     should be part of the proposition put to him.  This witness is --

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, it's amazing I have to do the work of

25     the Prosecution to investigate this case.  This is --

Page 6885

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, please.  We want to move ahead as

 2     quickly as possible.  What was the last question?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  The last question was if numbers 25 and 27 on the

 4     list are both Hana and Hasiba reflected as separate individuals would you

 5     agree with me they are the same person and one is a duplicate of the

 6     other.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What is the answer to that.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's one person.  One in the

 9     same person.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

11        Q.   If we look at item number F on your sheet that the Prosecution

12     gave to me it says, and I'll read it for you so you can have it in your

13     language:  Hasnija Kurspahic is possibly the same person as Pasana or

14     Pasija Kurspahic.

15        A.   Pasija is the real name.  She is Hasnija's mother.  I don't know

16     what people are called, but I know that Pasija is her real name.

17        Q.   To the extent that number 28 on the list in the indictment is

18     Hasnija and number 50 on the list is Pasana or Pasija would you agree

19     with me then that that is the same person and duplicate and an error on

20     the list of alleged victims from Pionirska?

21        A.   Yes.  Yes, it's just Pasija.  That's it.  So it's one person here

22     too.

23        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Would that be something that would be commonly

24     known so that VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, and VG-13 ought to also know that

25     Hasnija is the same person as Pasija?

Page 6886

 1        A.   Well, I don't know what you are actually asking me, why you are

 2     asking me about them.  You had an opportunity of asking them so don't ask

 3     me about them otherwise I'm not going to say anything.  You had your

 4     chance if they were here in court then you could have talked to them

 5     about that.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, please listen to me.  Please listen to

 7     me carefully.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I want you to answer the questions that counsel

10     puts to you.  If any question is out of order, I will stop him.  That's

11     my job.  Now, let's go ahead.  And let's -- how much longer do you have,

12     Mr. Ivetic?

13             MR. IVETIC:  At this point Your Honour, I don't even know I've

14     been thrown off with simple questions that take long to answer, and

15     there's objections, I would hope to finish within the first session is my

16     original estimate; but I see now that we are already one hour and ten

17     minutes into it, and I'm approximately halfway through my list of

18     questions, so -- list of areas, I should say.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole.

21             MR. COLE:  Yes, Your Honour, we can shorten this, if this witness

22     isn't asked what other people know, it's not a proper area of

23     cross-examination, the witness, what other people know or might know and

24     it can shorten things in any event.  And it seems that my learned friend

25     is going back to that issue time and again.

Page 6887

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, if I can make a representation on that

 2     point.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't wants to hear you on it.  Just proceed

 4     with the questioning.  Let's end this examination-in-chief.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Well then I would ask you to reconsider your order

 6     denying us to bring back the other VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, VG-13, Your

 7     Honours.  This is the only witness that we represent --

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Go ahead with the questioning.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

10        Q.   Would that be something that would be commonly known that VG-18,

11     VG-78, VG-8,4 and VG-13 also should know that Hasnija is the same person

12     as Pasija?

13        A.   Well, I guess they should know, they lived in the same village.

14     Pasija had a daughter by the name of Hasnija.  She did not die in the

15     fire.  That's not the same person.  Hasnija is Pasija's daughter.

16     Hasnija got killed and Pasija was not killed.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, next question.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Item G on your list of clarifications as represented by the

20     Office of the Prosecution says:

21             "He is aware of another Ismeta Kurspahic, but he believes she

22     lives in Bihac, and has always lived there."

23             The question I have for you is would you agree with me to your

24     knowledge there are only two Ismeta Kurspahic's:  One who has always

25     lived in Bihac, and, therefore, was not in Visegrad in 1992; and the one

Page 6888

 1     who was in Visegrad and is listed as an alleged victim in Annex A of the

 2     indictment?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, insofar as we have had -- so far as we have had a

 5     document in this case, the Visegrad Health Centre's log-books for the

 6     record that would be ERN 0545-2135, the second page of that would be

 7     0545-2136.  We have an entry for the 18th of June for a Ismeta Kurspahic.

 8     If that document is accurate, sir, would you then agree with me that the

 9     Ismeta Kurspahic listed as having perished in the Pionirska fire may well

10     have not perished in that alleged incident?

11        A.   She was killed.  That is correct.  It is incorrect that she

12     reported down there in Visegrad.

13        Q.   Sir, we have a document that states that is a person by the name

14     of Ismeta Kurspahic was treated at the Visegrad health --

15             MR. IVETIC:  I see Mr. Cole on his feet.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

17             MR. COLE:  Sir, counsel has his answer.  He is repeating the

18     question, it seems, to the witness.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

21        Q.   And if I may complete my question since I was not repeating the

22     answer.  Now, we have a document that states that a person by the name of

23     Ismeta Kurspahic was treated at the Visegrad Health Centre, June 18th of

24     1992; would you agree with me that apart from the Ismeta Kurspahic that

25     you say was killed in the fire on the 14th of June, there are no other

Page 6889

 1     persons with that name in Visegrad who could have applied to the Visegrad

 2     Health Centre?

 3             And I'm told the document is 1D22-0898 if it is something that is

 4     required to be shown on the screen.

 5        A.   There is no other Ismeta.  The one in Bihac was not there.  She

 6     was not in the census of 1991 in Visegrad because she resided in Bihac.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  Now -- well, we have the document coming up

 8     but he has answered the question so I don't think we need it, although --

 9     well, I guess at this time I would tender this as the next available 1D

10     exhibit to get that out of the way, the selected pages from the log-book

11     of the Visegrad Health Centre.  I don't know whether we have a

12     translation so perhaps it should be MFI'd.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Marked for identity.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D225, marked for identification,

15     Your Honours.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  If we can go back to the last document

17     which was the 1D --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask a question?

19             MR. IVETIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... sir, I'm asking

20     questions here and, we'll get through this.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's correct, that's correct.  What is it that

22     you wish to say.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's only a first and last name.

24     There's no date of birth, no father's name or anything else on the list.

25     This is a fictitious list that I can draw up or you.  In the former

Page 6890

 1     Yugoslavia especially in the area of Visegrad, you can get any documents

 2     in exchange for money, and I stand by what I said.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  The Prosecution's Annex A listing the alleged

 5     victims for the Pionirska Street incident also does not have father's

 6     last name.

 7        Q.   Sir, I have a question for you, you've just told us some very

 8     interesting evidence.  Sir, sir, listen to me, please.

 9        A.   Do you want me to help you or not?

10        Q.   You've given us some very important evidence.  The Prosecution's

11     Annex A to the indictment also does not have JMBG numbers, does not have

12     father's name, does not have date of birth; are you testifying now that

13     the Prosecution's list was procured by payments and is a false document?

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, I'm not allowing that.  Don't answer that

15     question.  Just proceed -- do not answer that question.  Do not answer

16     it:  Proceed to the next question.

17             MR. IVETIC:  I will, Your Honours.  If we could scroll down or

18     have the whole page on the screen, it would appreciate me [sic].  There

19     it is, J.

20        Q.   Sir, at J, the Prosecution in their telephonic discussion with

21     you recorded you as saying:  He is aware of a Saha Kurspahic, an old lady

22     he believes she was left behind by the group on the day of fire and was

23     picked up by the bus, and was, therefore, not killed in the fire.  And

24     the question that I have for you, sir, do you agree with me now that

25     Saha Kurspahic listed as victim number 53 approximately 70 years old in

Page 6891

 1     1992 on the Prosecution's list is incorrect and should be taken off the

 2     list?

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Sorry, Mr. Cole.  Just a minute.  Witness,

 4     Witness.  Please listen to me.  Counsel is on his feet.  When counsel is

 5     on his feet, you stop.  What do you have to say, Mr. Cole.

 6             MR. COLE:  Yes, the question is assuming evidence -- matters that

 7     are not in evidence putting together the name and a person on the

 8     schedule in the indictment.  Now, that is an improper way to deal with

 9     the witness.  If I can just have a moment, yes, counsel in his question

10     is assuming that the information on the exhibit before the witness is

11     necessarily tied into the name on the annex, and I think it's unfair to

12     the witness to frame the question in that way.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I agree.  Don't put the questions in that way,

14     Mr. Ivetic.

15             MR. IVETIC:  How else am I going to do that, Your Honour, we are

16     going to be here all day.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just ask him whether --

18             MR. IVETIC:  If there's another Saha Kurspahic perhaps.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, or whether he has knowledge as to whether

20     that person was alive or dead on the relevant date.  But I think Mr. Cole

21     does have a point.  It's not for the witness to say whether a name should

22     or should not be on the list.  We will decide that ultimately.

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   Sir, with respect to Saha Kurspahic, is there anyone else by that

25     name or is there just the one person that we've been talking about that

Page 6892

 1     would have been in Visegrad in June of 1992?

 2        A.   There was no other.  She was not burnt in the fire.  It's an old

 3     woman who was left behind the column.  I stated at the last hearing that

 4     she survived the fire, but I attended her funeral later on.  There were

 5     no two Saha's.  Maybe it's just the same person twice.  She was not

 6     killed in the fire.  She survived it.

 7        Q.   Is this common knowledge that you believe ought to be known to

 8     VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, and VG-13 and were they at the funeral?

 9        A.   I don't know.  With us Bosniaks, Muslims --

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  He has answered the question.  Next

11     question.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

13        Q.   If we look at your item K and it says:

14             "He is aware of" -- we shouldn't go down further.  We shouldn't

15     go down further because that's the part that should be redacted.

16             It says:  "He is aware of a Hajraga [phoen] Sehic, who was not

17     filled in the fire."  And the question I have to is ask you is this:  In

18     Annex A of the indictment, we have -- we have at item number 66 a

19     Haraga Sehic, have you ever heard of a Haraga Sehic existing in Koritnik

20     in June of 1992?

21        A.   I knew Hajro Sehic, a man who lived in Mala Gostilje, which is

22     close to Koritnik; however, I was not at Koritnik at the time.  I cannot

23     tell you anything about it.  He was an elderly person.  I don't know if

24     he is still alive or not.  I do know, however, that my father told me

25     this man was not at Pionirska Street when the fire took place.  I don't

Page 6893

 1     know what happened with that person, and he was not an inhabitant of my

 2     village in Koritnik where I was.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  I would ask that we now go into private

 4     session to discuss the remainder of his clarifications to protect the

 5     identity of other individuals.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 7            [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber] 

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6894











11  Pages 6894-6907 redacted. Private session.















Page 6908

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cole:

13        Q.   Yes, good afternoon, Mr. Kurspahic.

14        A.   Good afternoon.

15        Q.   Can you just confirm, please, sir that you and I haven't spoken

16     today before your testimony?

17        A.   No, we haven't.

18        Q.   And can I say at the outset that I'm sorry that you've had to

19     come here again and at such short notice too.

20             I just want to go through some preliminary matters to put your

21     testimony into perspective, and if you would, if you could try just to

22     keep your answers as short as you can for me unless there is a necessary

23     explanation as part of your answer.

24             You were a policeman in Visegrad in 1992, early 1992.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6909

 1        Q.   You left Visegrad in April 1992 to go to Medjedja?

 2        A.   Yes, well, September 1991, the 21st of September, mobilisation of

 3     the reserve police station, reserve force of the police station and I

 4     went home two or three times to have a bath and so on, but otherwise I

 5     was in Medjedja, yes.

 6        Q.   Now, your address in Visegrad, did you live in Pionirska Street?

 7        A.   Pionirska number 11, Visegrad.

 8        Q.   How far is that house from the house where your relatives and

 9     friends were burned to death in June?

10        A.   About a 100 to 110 metres.  Not more.

11        Q.   Now, when you finally abandoned your house in 1992, are you aware

12     of who moved into the house?

13        A.   Milan Lukic and his Lukics were in my house, and they kept a goat

14     on the upper story.

15        Q.   Now, I'm sorry, sir, to reminds you again, but can you confirm,

16     please, for us, that you lost some close members of your family in the

17     Pionirska fire, your mother, Hata; your sister, Hasiba, known as Hana;

18     your sister, Kada Sehic; and your nephew, Faruk Sehic, son of Kada; can

19     you confirm that is correct?

20        A.   Well, yes.

21        Q.   And you also lost many other relatives and acquaintances in that

22     fire?

23        A.   All of them are relatives, except this man, Redzo Memisevic, all

24     the others were relations of mine.

25        Q.   And your father Hasib was one of the few persons who escaped from

Page 6910

 1     the burning house?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And he was interviewed shortly after his escape from that house

 4     on video, and you can confirm that video interview is an exhibit in this

 5     trial?

 6        A.   Well, yes, that's the first time he gave a statement.

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8             MR. COLE:  I think, Your Honour that I've been advised that we

 9     are in private session and there's no need to be.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Public session.

11                           [Open session]

12             MR. COLE:

13        Q.   Yes, Mr. Kurspahic --

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

15             MR. COLE:

16        Q.   We were talking about your father who escaped from the burning

17     Pionirska house in 1992.  Your father subsequently passed away in 1996?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, you testified for the first time in the Mitar Vasiljevic

20     trial in 2001?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And during that trial, the list of 51 names produced as Exhibit

23     P39 was produced during that trial, wasn't it?

24             MR. COLE:  And I ask that that be shown to you now, both the

25     English and the B/C/S versions.  Yes.  Does the Court have the B/C/S

Page 6911

 1     version?  Yes.

 2        Q.   It's in two pages, I think.

 3        A.   I can see it, but it's very small print.

 4        Q.   On the right-hand side we have the English, can you see on the

 5     left-hand side the B/C/S version?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   All right.  So you recall that was produced at the first trial in

 8     2001?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you didn't compile that list yourself.  That was compiled by

11     somebody else, wasn't it?

12        A.   I did not compile it.

13        Q.   And you were called to testify again in this trial and you

14     testified on the 1st of September last year?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And at the first trial and just prior to testifying in September

17     last year, you advised the Court on the first occasion, and the

18     Prosecution on the second occasion, that you believed that the names of

19     Jasarevic should have been Halilovic?

20        A.   Yes, it is then that I said it.  There was a mistake made by

21     someone.

22        Q.   Right.  As early as the first trial in 2001, you believed that

23     the name Jasarevic should have been Halilovic; isn't that correct?

24        A.   Yes, and I asked for that to be corrected.  I wasn't the one

25     making the corrections.

Page 6912

 1        Q.   Now, perhaps we can just deal with P39 which is in front of you

 2     at the moment.  I just want to ask you about some of the names in it.

 3     And this list as we see it was subsequently corrected on a couple of

 4     occasions by you, as you've just indicated, wasn't it?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   So try and do it in an orderly fashion, we won't go through all

 7     the names but this is the list that was prepared by somebody else and

 8     featured in the Mitar Vasiljevic trial in 2001.  The first name, number

 9     1, Medo Kurspahic, aged about 50 years; do you believe that that person

10     at item number 1 perished in the Pionirska fire or not?

11        A.   He was killed.

12        Q.   I am sorry, in English that doesn't completely answer the

13     question.  Did he perish in the Pionirska fire in your belief?

14        A.   100 percent.  He, his wife, Mustafa and their daughter, Medina.

15        Q.   If we move down to item number 9 -- sorry, number 10.  It reads

16     Kurspahic a surname only, daughter of Mujesira aged 10 year?

17        A.   Mujesira.

18        Q.   Sorry, Mujesira.  Are you able to give us the name of the girl

19     aged about 10 years.  The first name of number 10?

20        A.   Yes, I can.  If you allow me a moment.  In that family of

21     Mujesira there were two children.  The wife was Mujesira, daughter Anesa

22     and daughter Halida, one born in 1979, the other one in 1982, and their

23     grandmother Sumbula.

24        Q.   If we can just try and concentrate on the question, please,

25     Mr. Kurspahic.  Are you able to give us the name of the first name of the

Page 6913

 1     10-year-old daughter of Mujesira who perished in the fire in Pionirska?

 2        A.   One was Anesa the other one was Halida.  One was born in 1979,

 3     the other one in 1982.  They were two girls.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  If we could know what was before him -- there's a

 6     folded piece of paper, if we could have a copy of that and know what that

 7     is.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, what are you looking at?  Witness, just

 9     tell us, don't listen to Mr. Ivetic right now.  Just tell us, what is it

10     you are looking at?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is no document

12     of sorts.  This is a list with first and last names and years of birth

13     per family.  People are listed per family and per household and those are

14     the same people that are on your list.  I can leave this with you if you

15     wish, Mr. President, for your perusal.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Did you prepare that list?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Where does it come from?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the census, and we went by the

20     last names and households.  They are disputing that Aisa appeared at the

21     health clinic, where she was burnt; and then for Medo who supposedly

22     launched an application, whereas he was killed.  So you have people there

23     by family name.  I can give it to the Tribunal.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you very much.  Do you want it.

25             MR. COLE:  Yes, Your Honour, can I indicate I haven't seen the

Page 6914

 1     list.  I'm unaware of what is in it, I would suggest it's appropriate if

 2     it's a list compiled by this witness that it be admitted.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I'd like to see it first before it's admitted, Your

 4     Honours.  I might have submissions on it.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, let it be passed to counsel and then to

 6     the --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's nothing to hide here.  Give

 8     it to the Defence.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  First to us.

10             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, if it is submitted by the

11     Prosecution for admission at this late stage I believe the Prosecution's

12     case had rested and this is rejoinder evidence; or I don't know what it

13     is, actually, what stage we are in, but causes some technical problem, I

14     believe.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a list by families stating who

16     came from which family or household.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, to the extent the list has no names

18     that were not even on the original annex of victim, so to the extent the

19     Prosecution so seeking to amend their charges at this late stage

20     [Overlapping speakers] ...

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The Prosecution is not seeking to do anything.

22     Just show them the list.

23             MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers]

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not correct.  No one was added

25     to the list.

Page 6915

 1             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, the last page says in Serbian,

 2     the word is [B/C/S/spoken], which in English -- let me see how it's

 3     coming up, I don't see how it was translated which to me indicates that

 4     this is a list prepared by someone else giving suggestions and reminders

 5     to the witnesses as to how he should testify.  I think we need him to

 6     clarify that.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please pass the list to counsel and let us get

 8     on.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can keep it.  I don't need it.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole.

11             MR. COLE:  I've had the opportunity, Your Honour, to have a look

12     at it.  It's obviously a list and the writing --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell what you it says.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Don't speak until you are asked to answer a

15     question.  Let's hear from Mr. Cole first.

16             MR. COLE:  Of course I understand what it says in addition to the

17     list of names, but I can lay some foundation, find out a bit more about

18     it from the witness and ask for it to be admitted at that stage.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, go ahead.

20             MR. COLE:

21        Q.   Witness, the list in front of you, who was the person that

22     physically compiled that list and put it together?

23        A.   We organised this in terms of families.  For example, I couldn't

24     remember the name of a child who was three years old, and now when the

25     Prosecutor asked me what the name of the child was, that's why I did

Page 6916

 1     this.  For no other reason.

 2        Q.   What I would like to find out from you, just briefly, is how many

 3     people firstly collaborated in gathering that information that is in the

 4     list before you?

 5        A.   We did, from the different families and households.  Every person

 6     stated their father's, mother's last name, people did this by families.

 7     No institution or organisation was involved.  We gave up on this Tribunal

 8     or anything else.  We were unable to get by any information of the

 9     deceased and loved ones for a number of years now.  We gave up on seeking

10     justice.

11        Q.   Can we do it this way, the list is material that's been gathered

12     from all the interested parties, those that have lost family members in

13     the fire, the information has been gathered together, and a list of that

14     material has been put together.  Does that sum it up?

15        A.   Yes, yes.  And it is correct.

16        Q.   Okay.  That was the next thing I was going to ask you.  You are

17     referring to that list now, do you believe that list to be correct and

18     authentic in the information that is contained therein?

19        A.   99 percent.

20        Q.   All right.  So 99 percent, are you able to point to anything in

21     it that isn't correct or can you just tell us why you say 99 rather than

22     100?

23        A.   Well, I can tell you that it's 2.000 percent accurate, but I'm

24     trying to say that it is authentic, correct.

25        Q.   All right.

Page 6917

 1             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, on that basis he has testified here I

 2     would ask that the list of names be entered into evidence and be given an

 3     exhibit number, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Did he also participate in gathering this

 5     information?

 6             MR. COLE:  Yes.

 7        Q.   Witness, did you contribute to the information that is contained

 8     in the list yourself?

 9        A.   Well, yes, yes, my mother disappeared as well as two of my

10     cousins, uncles, friends, neighbours.  We all got together from each of

11     the households, if any family member survived, then they provided me with

12     years of birth and names.  I could not have known each and every child if

13     I didn't live with that child.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll admit it.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, it should be marked for identification

16     since we don't have a copy in the official language of the Tribunal in

17     English.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Is it in B/C/S in its entirely.

19             MR. IVETIC:  It's in B/C/S, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, then, yes, marked for identification.

21             MR. COLE:  I was going to suggest, Your Honour, that it can be

22     admitted now.  The witness can sign it with today's date and time.  There

23     can be copies made thereafter.  It can immediately then become an

24     exhibit.  Probably no reason to be marked for identification can be taken

25     from him at the conclusion of his testimony and copied, translated at

Page 6918

 1     that time, sir.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, the practice I've followed in the last

 4     ten years of this Tribunal unless it's an official language it's marked

 5     for identification until translation is provided and can be verified, and

 6     the document can be -- know of -- right now the lead counsel for the

 7     Defence doesn't even know this document and cannot read it so I don't

 8     know what kind of submissions we can make on it.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll maintain the ruling that it's marked for

10     identification pending translation.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P333, marked for identification,

12     Your Honours.

13             MR. COLE:  Yes.

14        Q.   Witness, we were going through, I think, the list of in front of

15     you on the screen, P39, dealing with some of the names on the list, and

16     we are not going to do all of them.  And I think you had given us the

17     name of two daughters of Mujesira who perished in the Pionirska fire?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   I'm now going to move down to item 14, the name at number 14, the

20     Ismeta.  It shows Ismeta Kurspahic, daughter-in-law of Osman and Ajka

21     about 26 years old.  Is that a correct reference of a person who perished

22     in the Pionirska fire?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you were asked about this earlier, do you know --

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6919

 1        Q.   Besides the lady who died in the fire, do you know any other

 2     Ismeta Kurspahics that are alive or were alive after the date of the

 3     fire?

 4        A.   There is one, a cousin of mine in Bihac.  She is a permanent

 5     resident there.  She only comes to visit once or twice a year.

 6        Q.   And you know of no others?

 7        A.   There are no others in the village of Koritnik, in my village.

 8        Q.   Right.  Now, let's just make clear once and for all the situation

 9     in relation to Aisa Kurspahic.  If you'll have a look at the list, you'll

10     see there are two Aisa Kurspahics, one at number 22 and one at number 24.

11     You see those?  Yes, you've got too many documents in front of you.  It

12     was a list of 51 names that were used during the --

13        A.   24, Aisa, yes.

14        Q.   22, Aisa.  Now, you subsequently made a correction to this

15     list --

16        A.   The one under 22, that one survived.  The Aisa under 24 was

17     killed.  The one under 22 is the person who survived who at the time was

18     about 22 years old.

19        Q.   Thank you.  So the lady listed at number 24 perished in the

20     Pionirska fire?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, please have a look -- I'm trying to do this as expeditiously

23     as we can, have a look at number 23, Ramiza Kurspahic, and then have a

24     look at number 41, the same name.

25        A.   Ramiza under 23, she did not take part in the incident.  She

Page 6920

 1     survived.  The other one is Becar Kurspahic's wife, and she perished in

 2     Pionirska Street.

 3        Q.   So the lady at number 41 perished in the fire?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you corrected the references to the two other ladies at 22

 6     and 23, you corrected that and indicated that they should not have been

 7     on the list previously, didn't you?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, let's go through to number 37 [sic] on the list,

10     Hasiba Kurspahic.

11        A.   It is my father.  He was involved and survived.  After the blast,

12     a door opened and he fell out.  He survived.  This is my father.

13        Q.   Yes.  And that he was incorrectly listed in this list in the

14     Vasiljevic trial, and you subsequently corrected that entry to show that

15     he should no longer have been amongst the list of the dead, didn't you?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, if we go down to number 39, Hana Kurspahic, about 30 years

18     old, daughter of Hata and Hasib, does that appear to you to be reference

19     to your sister Hasiba, whose real name is Hasiba, who actually perished

20     in the Pionirska fire?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Because you told us before that she was sometimes known as Hana,

23     didn't you?

24        A.   Most of the people in the village knew her as Hana; however in

25     the register, her name is listed as Hasiba.

Page 6921

 1        Q.   Okay.  Moving on, at number 44, we see Kada Sehic, about 39 years

 2     old.  Do you believe that that refers to your sister, maiden name

 3     Kurspahic?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   She perished in the Pionirska fire, didn't she?

 6        A.   Yes, she did as well as her son Faruk.

 7        Q.   And Faruk is listed under her name at number 45?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And we'll just for completeness, numbers 48, 49 and 50, people

10     with the name Jasarevic, you've been asked a number of times about these

11     people -- just a moment, please, Mr. Kurspahic.

12             Can we just -- can you go through them -- let's deal with 48

13     first.  Do you say that Mujo Jasarevic perished in the fire, or should it

14     be Mujo Halilovic?

15        A.   Yes, Mujo perished in the fire.  As well as Meho and Meho's wife,

16     Tima, their last name was Halilovic.  I told the Defence there was two

17     Mujos.  There was a Halilovic and Jasarevic, Mujo; one perished, the

18     little or small Mujo.  There was a separate hamlet of Halilovici there.

19        Q.   All right.  Now, number 50 is Hajra, are you saying it was

20     Hajra Halilovic who perished in the fire?

21        A.   Yes, Meho's wife.

22        Q.   Now, have you heard the name Mujo Jasarevic before?

23        A.   I knew the man.  I knew both Mujo's, Jasarevic and Halilovic, I

24     knew both of them.

25        Q.   Is the surname Jasarevic a very common name?

Page 6922

 1        A.   In one parts of the Sase village, you have the Jasarevics and in

 2     the other part of the hamlet, you have the Halilovics.  They are both the

 3     Jasarevic and the Halilovic families there.

 4        Q.   I'm asking you is Jasarevic a very common name for a person to

 5     have?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7        Q.   For example, do you know how many Mujo Jasarevics do you know?

 8        A.   I know one person by the last name of Jasarevic, and another

 9     under the name of Halilovic.

10        Q.   Is it your belief that nobody by the name of Jasarevic perished

11     in the Pionirska fire?

12        A.   No, those were the Halilovics.  Meho and Mujo were next door

13     neighbours.  I know that Meho's last name was Halilovic, as well as that

14     of his wife, Hajra.  And as I've said, I wasn't sure whether Mujo

15     Halilovic or Jasarevic was killed.  His wife's name was Mujesira and you

16     can check that if need be.

17        Q.   All right.  I want you just to put aside the three Jasarevics

18     we've just been talking about there.  Wasn't there, in fact, one other

19     Jasarevic who in fact did perish in the Pionirska fire in June 1992?

20        A.   No, all of these were Halilovics:  Meho, and Tima.  Their last

21     name certainly is Halilovic.  I am not sure of Mujo, whether he was a

22     Halilovic or a Jasarevic.  I don't know whether any other Jasarevics were

23     involved.

24        Q.   All right.  Well, what about Tima Jasarevic, is that person one

25     of the victims of the fire?

Page 6923

 1        A.   This needs to be revised.  Their last name is Halilovic.  It

 2     should be done here before the Bench.  Halilovic, I told that to the

 3     Defence as well.  Meho and Hajra Halilovic.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Let's just see if we can deal with that now.  How many

 5     people then by the name of Halilovic do you say -- just a moment.  How

 6     many people by the surname of Halilovic do you say perished in the

 7     Pionirska fire?

 8        A.   Meho and Hajra, their last name was Halilovic.  I'm not certain

 9     about Mujo, he was either a Jasarevic or a Halilovic, and he perished.

10        Q.   All right.  Well, what I'll do now is just go through some of the

11     names in the Annex A, which is the list of names attached to the

12     indictment.  I'm not sure, have you been given that list of names?

13        A.   I only have the old original version with 70 plus names, and then

14     there's the list of 51 names, I have that one as well.

15        Q.   What was the list that was given to you by counsel earlier, I

16     just want to be clear what that is that you have?  Could I have a look at

17     that, please.

18        A.   I don't know.  I have never seen that before, as I said at the

19     outset.  I've never seen this list before.

20             MR. COLE:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Yes, Witness, the document that I've just had a look at that you

22     were given before, you say you've never seen it before, I'm not sure if

23     it was explained to you precisely what it was, but that is a copy of the

24     indictment in this trial alleging serious crimes against Milan Lukic and

25     Sredoje Lukic.  And at the back of that indictment, it has two annexes:

Page 6924

 1     Annex A which is a list of those killed in the burning house at Pionirska

 2     Street, there are 70 names there; and Annex B, a list of 16 known persons

 3     that were among those killed in the burning house at Bikavac nearly two

 4     weeks later.

 5             So that was the document you were looking at before.  I see

 6     counsel has taken it back now, but I'm going to go through just some of

 7     the names of those that are noted in Annex A to the indictment as being

 8     killed in that burning house in Pionirska.  Do you understand that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. COLE:  Could I just ask Your Honours, are we taking a break

11     at 1:15.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, we are going to go to 1.45.  It's a

13     mini-marathon.

14             MR. COLE:  Thank you, sir.  Very well.

15        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, the first one I'm going to ask you about is number

16     4, you don't have the list in front of you before, but number 4 says

17     Jasmina Delija, approximately 24 years old.  And the age -- just a

18     moment.  Wait a moment -- the age that I'm going to give you now is the

19     age at the time that these -- it is said these persons were killed in

20     Pionirska Street.  So that's back in 1992.  Do you understand that?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   All right.  With Jasmina Delija, approximately 24 years old in

23     1992, do you believe that a person by that name was burned to death in

24     the Pionirska house?

25        A.   Yes, she burnt to death, yes, that's true.

Page 6925

 1        Q.   And what was her maiden name?

 2        A.   Kurspahic.  She is a relative of mine.  Close relative.

 3        Q.   All right.  Now, listed in the Annex A four Jasarevics, I think

 4     in terms of completeness I've got to put this to you once again.  We have

 5     listed as, perhaps I can just do it by way of leading.  We have at

 6     number 6, Tima Jasarevic, age unknown - and if you can do it in a yes or

 7     no fashion - do you believe that a person by the name of Tima Jasarevic

 8     perished in the Pionirska fire?

 9        A.   Tima Jasarevic, it's Tima Velic and her mother, they were

10     mentioned as having been in that house at the critical time, their

11     surname is Velic, Ima and Nurka, mother and daughter.  And at that

12     critical time, they were in the vicinity of the house.

13        Q.   I am he not going to ask you about those persons, but is

14     Tima Jasarevic a person who you say should, in fact, be Tima Halilovic?

15        A.   Yes, Halilovic.  I've already said that, that it's Halilovic.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, the next one we have is Hajra, H-a-j-r-a, Jasarevic,

17     approximately 35 years old, do you believe that person should be

18     Hajra Halilovic?

19        A.   Hajra Halilovic, Meho Halilovic's wife.

20        Q.   So that is you are saying yes, that should be Hajra?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Okay.  Number 8 is Meho Jasarevic, approximately 42 years old.

23     Do you say that name should be Meho Halilovic?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And the next one Mujo Jasarevic, approximately 47 years old, do

Page 6926

 1     you say that person should be, in fact, Mujo Halilovic?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   All right.  The Aisa Kurspahic at number 10, A-i-s-a,

 4     approximately 49 years old, that person you've told us previously was

 5     burned to death at Pionirska?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   If we go down, you don't have the list, but it's number 15,

 8     listen to this carefully, the first name is Aner, A-n-e-r, Kurspahic,

 9     approximately 6 years old.  Just hold it for a moment, please.  So that

10     person is listed there.  Do you believe that a person called

11     Aner Kurspahic, approximately 6 years old, was burned to death in the

12     Pionirska fire or not?

13        A.   Aida is the right name.  Her real name is Aida.  A-i-d-a.

14        Q.   I think something might have gone wrong with it --

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, you are asking about the 6-year-old boy,

16     Aner.

17             MR. COLE:  And I spelled it.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He is asking about the 6-year-old boy Aner not

19     Aida, not the lady whose name is Aida.  You can help --

20             MR. IVETIC:  I can help, Your Honours, I believe the witness is

21     talking about number 11 because the question before Mr. Cole was number

22     10 on the list, so I think the witness is referring to number 11 on the

23     list which is the name he mentioned so --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please slow down.

25             MR. COLE:

Page 6927

 1        Q.   Yes, witness, we'll just clarify this, I've moved down to number

 2     15, just a moment, I've moved down to number 15 we are not going to go

 3     through all of the names, and I'm asking you about Aner, A-n-e-r,

 4     Kurspahic at number 15 who it says is approximately six years old.

 5        A.   It says here on my list under number 15, Aida Kurspahic, maybe

 6     that's a mistake in the order.

 7        Q.   I'm sorry, witness, you have before you the previous exhibit, I

 8     think probably the best idea is for that to be removed from the screen

 9     now.  I'll just repeat it.  What I'm asking you about now is a list that

10     you don't have in front of you which is an annex to the indictment that

11     contains a list of 70 names.  It was the list that counsel had provided

12     to you before but which he has now taken back, so you don't have it

13     before you.  So I'm just going to give the number on the list, what the

14     name is, and the age and ask you about the person.

15             So I'm asking you now about number 15 Aner Kurspahic,

16     approximately six years old.  Do you believe that that person -- a person

17     of that name and that approximate age was burned to death in the

18     Pionirska fire in 1992?

19        A.   Yes.  It's Hidajet's son.

20        Q.   About what age was the Aner Kurspahic, do you believe, the one

21     that perished in the fire?

22        A.   Five or six, I'm not quite sure.  It says Almir, and there were

23     three children and they all perished together, the brother, sister, and

24     this one.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

Page 6928

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I'd ask Mr. Cole where is that contained in the

 2     clarification and the proofing session that was provided to us or

 3     otherwise notice to the Defence.  This is new evidence.  I've never heard

 4     it before.

 5             MR. COLE:  I don't know what counsel was saying it was so fast.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Let me slow down then.  I'd ask Mr. Cole where is

 7     this contained in the proofing statement, the clarifications by this

 8     witness that were provided by the Prosecution after Mr. Cole's telephone

 9     discussion with him as notice for this new evidence that is being led.

10             MR. COLE:  Well, Your Honour.

11             MR. IVETIC:  I would object to new evidence being led at this

12     late stage.

13             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, I'm conducting a cross-examination here.

14     I'm not here to answer.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's a Chamber witness, Mr. Ivetic.

16             MR. COLE:  Yes.

17             MR. IVETIC:  But, Your Honours, Mr. Cole gave us a clarification

18     identifying Aner Kurspahic and giving us totally different information.

19     Now we are finding out for the first time that he intends to prove it's

20     different person.  If the Prosecution is going to reply upon it in their

21     case, Your Honour, it's new evidence, needs to be noticed.  I have a

22     right to challenge it and confront it.

23             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, you'll recall that the witness indicated

24     he hasn't been spoken to anyone since that phone call in March.  We might

25     find out when I ask him in a moment where this information has come from

Page 6929

 1     and why it's new.  But now he is here, now he is a court witness.  We are

 2     entitled to hear anything he has to say about anyone who is victim or

 3     alleged to be a victim.  I'd like to find out more about it.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, go ahead.

 5             MR. COLE:

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Kurspahic, you've heard the exchange here, you've just

 7     given some evidence about an Aner Kurspahic, approximately six years old.

 8     Have you ever -- I think you've given the name of the -- have you given

 9     the name of the parent?  What was the name of the parent of this

10     Aner Kurspahic?

11        A.   Hidajet.  There's Aner Kurspahic, Omer's son, he did not perish.

12     He is in Austria.  He was taken away.  He and his father and his uncle

13     took them out of a car and were disposed of by Milan Lukic.

14        Q.   So you are telling the Court now about this Aner Kurspahic whose

15     son of Halida who perished in the Pionirska fire.  Do you recall having

16     mentioned that to anyone on a previous occasion, or its the first time

17     that you are telling that information to the Court?

18        A.   Well, I talked about this on the basis of the list.  I revised

19     the list for all the people who hadn't perished, and we did that earlier

20     on.  We crossed out the names of people who were not there.  Now, what

21     the critical people are, well, I'd like to help you to clarify whether

22     they did perish or didn't.  So tell me who you mean specifically, who you

23     want to know about specifically?

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 6930

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole.

 2             MR. COLE:  Yes.

 3        Q.   Witness, we just need to clarify this situation with

 4     Aner Kurspahic and how many of them there are and who their parents are.

 5     Yes.  So Mr. Kurspahic, can we just concentrate on Aner Kurspahic, the

 6     one who is in the indictment at number 15, the boy about six, and the

 7     mother is Halida, are you able to give us any further details about this

 8     Aner Kurspahic before I ask you about another one?

 9        A.   There was Hidajet.  Omer's boy was ten or 12 and this other one

10     was five or six years old, and that was Hidajet's son.

11        Q.   Aner Kurspahic, daughter of Halida, what was the father's name,

12     the father of the boy who died in the fire?

13        A.   Hidajet.

14        Q.   Hidajet was the father, was it Halida the mother?

15        A.   Ismeta, the mother's name was Ismeta.  She is Hidajet's wife.

16             MR. IVETIC:  This is not contained in the Ewa Tabeau's list of

17     possible persons, so this is completely new evidence that is now being

18     led out of thin air.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole, can you clarify for me is the

20     examination to the effect that there are two persons with the name

21     Aner Kurspahic.

22             MR. COLE:  I was just going to ask him about the other one

23     because it's certainly -- it's in the disclosed material from the phone

24     call on the 4th of March.  I was trying to separate them and get his

25     explanation for that, Your Honour.

Page 6931

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, go ahead.

 2             MR. COLE:

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Kurspahic, I'm just going to draw your attention to a

 4     document which was produced as a result of the telephone call that you

 5     had on the 4th of March, and I'm going to read out what this document

 6     records was said between you and counsel on that occasion, if you just

 7     listen carefully, please.  This document says that during the phone call

 8     you said that you believed that a person called Aner Kurspahic, son of

 9     Latifa Kurspahic, is alive and in Austria.

10             Now, just hold it for a moment.  First I'm going to ask you, did

11     you say that during the telephone call on the 1st of March, or do you

12     recall saying that?  That's the first thing, there are other questions to

13     come.

14        A.   I don't remember.  Possibly but I don't remember saying that.  I

15     know for sure that Aner is Latifa's son and that he was killed with his

16     father and uncle Fikret.  I'm here to explain.

17        Q.   So you are aware of Aner Kurspahic who is the son of a Latifa

18     Kurspahic, and your evidence today is that that that Aner Kurspahic is no

19     longer alive?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And when do you believe that he lost his life?

22        A.   Before what happened in Pionirska Street, they set off for

23     Belgrade.  His mother, Latifa; his father, Hasan; his grandfather, Omer;

24     and uncle, Fikret, who was a military person.  He came to take them to

25     Belgrade and from a private vehicle, Milan Lukic pursuant to Latifa's

Page 6932

 1     statement --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly be asked to slow down

 3     and tell us the story one by one, thank you.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, you were speak too fast.  You are going

 5     too fast.  Now, I am going to ask you to repeat it, but Mr. Ivetic has

 6     something to say.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  This individual is now

 8     testifying about something unrelated but which is interesting to me

 9     because to my knowledge I see no statements of Latifa Kurspahic anywhere,

10     so I don't know where this witness's knowledge of Latifa Kurspahic comes

11     from, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, he can tell us.  Witness, would you repeat

13     more slowly what you just said.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness be asked to make pauses.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I talked to his grandfather, Hasan,

16     who survived and then died later, so Hasan's son, Fikret, came by from

17     Belgrade and he was an army officer.  He came to take his father, his

18     mother, his brother, the family away; and when they left Visegrad, in a

19     passenger vehicle, privately owned, driven by Omer, there was his son

20     there, Aner, who was ten or 12 years old, and his brother; and in the bus

21     there was Hasan, Meva, their daughter-in-law, Latifa, and her small

22     daughter, and then Milan took Hasan out.  He took all three of them out

23     of the car and another person from the bus, and I don't know what the

24     name of that person was.

25             MR. COLE:  Yes.  I note the time, could I just finish up on this

Page 6933

 1     subject.  It will only take a moment, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 3             MR. COLE:

 4        Q.   I'm just going to give you an opportunity to tell the Court or

 5     give an explanation or whether you remember, you actually said this

 6     comment during the telephone conversation with counsel on the 4th of

 7     March.  This is what is written and this is what was supplied to the

 8     Defence, that you believed that Aner Kurspahic -- this is what is written

 9     here, that you believed that Aner Kurspahic, son of Latifa Kurspahic, is

10     alive and in Austria.  Now, just hold it there a moment.  I'm going to

11     ask you a question.  Do you believe that you said that, or that it's a

12     mistake, or how would you explain that that comment has been written down

13     following the conversation that you had with counsel?

14        A.   I'm not sure that that is what I said.  I really don't remember.

15     And if even if I did say that, then I withdraw it.  I don't remember ever

16     having said that.  I don't know, I'm not sure.  Now, I couldn't say what

17     actually did not happen, that's not something I do, but I'm here to

18     explain things.

19             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, is that an appropriate time or are we

20     going through 1.45, I've got it wrong.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  To 1.45.

22             MR. COLE:  Yes, I'm sorry, you did indicate that, Your Honour.

23        Q.   All right.  I'm going to move on now to in this list of 70 names

24     that has been attached to the indictment, I think you've been given that

25     back now, have a look at number 25 on the list, that shows

Page 6934

 1     Hana Kurspahic, approximately 30 years old.  It's probably in English,

 2     but it says 25, Hana Kurspahic, approximately 30 years old.  That's what

 3     is written here.  You can see the name Hana, can you?

 4        A.   Yes, that's my sister.  But there are two names.  She also comes

 5     under number 27, and Hasiba is her real name, so you should delete the

 6     other number.

 7        Q.   Just a moment.  There is a Hana Kurspahic approximately 30 years

 8     old.  How many Hana Kurspahics do you know?

 9        A.   Her nickname is Hana, but her real name is Hasiba.  It's the same

10     person under number 25 and 27.  25 and 27 are the same person.

11        Q.   Well, I'm just going to suggest to you, Mr. Kurspahic, that they

12     are two separate people.  That a Hana, just a moment, that a

13     Hana Kurspahic and also a Hasiba Kurspahic both perished in the Pionirska

14     fire, one of them being your sister, and one of them being another woman.

15     Just would you think about that for a moment and tell us whether you

16     agree with that?

17        A.   No, no, that's not true.  The truth is that it's one and the same

18     person.  There was just one person.

19        Q.   So just to be clear then, your sister's name was Hasiba.  She

20     perished in the fire; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And on the list that you've produced and that you've brought with

23     you and which will now be an exhibit, is there also a separate person --

24     separate victim with the first name of Hana Kurspahic in addition to

25     Hasiba?

Page 6935

 1        A.   No, no.  Listen to me.  There might be a mistake.  I don't know

 2     about my list, but the list I have in front of me were 70 names, that's a

 3     mistake.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  His evidence is that Hana Kurspahic at number 25

 5     and Hasiba Kurspahic at 27 are one and the same person.

 6             MR. COLE:  He has made that clear.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  And his sister.

 8             MR. COLE:  Yes, he believes that Hasiba Kurspahic and Hana, it's

 9     the same person, his sister goes under the name of Hana.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

11             MR. COLE:

12        Q.   All right.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How much longer do you have, Mr. Cole?

14             MR. COLE:  In fairness, I'm not sure, Your Honour; but I don't

15     know -- I'm certainly not going through all the names, maybe half an

16     hour.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Continue, please.

18             MR. COLE:  Yes.

19        Q.   The next name I'm going to ask you about is number 28, and that

20     reads Hasnija, H-a-s-n-i-j-a, Kurspahic approximately 62 years old.

21        A.   This is a mistake.  Hasnija, no, there's Pasija, so it's the same

22     person.  Pasija has a daughter and her name is Hasnija, but she didn't

23     perish in the fire.  She wasn't there at all.

24        Q.   Let's just do it precisely if we can.  Concentrating on Hasnija

25     approximately 62 years old, was there a person of that name who perished

Page 6936

 1     in the Pionirska fire?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   And are you saying that name doesn't appear on the list that you

 4     brought with you?

 5        A.   No, it's not on the list.

 6        Q.   And is it your evidence that Hasnija, that I have just referred

 7     to at number 28, is the same person as the Pasana or Pasija in item 50?

 8        A.   Yes, they are mother and daughter.  They are two different

 9     people, mother and daughter.

10        Q.   Who were mother and daughter?

11        A.   Pasija is Hasnija's mother, and Hasnija wasn't there in Pionirska

12     Street in Visegrad when the house was set on fire, but Pasija was.

13        Q.   Did you say Pasana Kurspahic was the mother of Hasnija Kurspahic?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Well, if you see the age for Pasana Kurspahic, that's age 56, and

16     the age of Hasnija Kurspahic is approximately 62 years old?

17        A.   No, Hasnija might be about 30 roughly.  This is not correct here.

18     Somebody wrote that but it's not correct.  I don't know.  Hasnija might

19     have been 30, whereas Pasnija is her mother, about 60.  58, 60.

20        Q.   Was this 30-year-old Hasnija killed in the fire?

21        A.   No.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Was her mother killed in the fire?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And she was about 60, you say?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 58, 60.  An elderly woman.  She has

Page 6937

 1     children older than Hasnija too.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And her name was?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pasija.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole, this is -- and Mr. Groome, this is

 5     getting a little confusing.  What I'm going to do is at the end of the

 6     examination, I'm going to ask each party to make submissions as to the

 7     names that should be taken off the list as a result of the evidence that

 8     we have heard.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, it occurs to me that, and I apologise

10     that there is this confusion --

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Don't give any evidence.

12             MR. GROOME:  No.  I would like an opportunity to just -- after

13     Mr. Kurspahic finishes his testimony to sit down with him and go through

14     this list, who put it together.  It seems to be, from what I can gather

15     here, if it was done with the different family members --

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He is giving evidence.  He in the middle --


18             MR. GROOME:  No, I am saying when he has concluded his evidence.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Oh, when he has concluded.

20             MR. GROOME:  Before he returns, I'm going to ask for an

21     opportunity just to sit down with him and go through this other list that

22     it seems has been compiled with the assistance of all the family members

23     who really are the people in the best position.  We have tried to provide

24     the Chamber with data sources and recollections of different people.  It

25     seems that Mr. Kurspahic has invested quite a bit of time and gathered

Page 6938

 1     the help that he needed to come up with a rather reliable list, so I am

 2     going to ask to be able to explore that with him later on.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm having another idea, it's something

 4     equivalent to yours.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, what are you going to do with the

 7     information that you will gather when you have spoken with the witness

 8     after he has completed his evidence?

 9             MR. GROOME:  I was actually going to ask Mr. Cole to sit down

10     with an investigator and really get down to the bottom of this once and

11     for all.  I would ask that we do that tonight, disclose it to Mr. Ivetic,

12     and if Mr. Ivetic wants to be present, I would have no objection to that.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

14             MR. GROOME:  And then if necessary, to have Mr. Kurspahic -- if

15     it was necessary for him to spend a few minutes just describing any of

16     the source of the material, that he could do that tomorrow morning and

17     perhaps this list that he has worked on would be considered the

18     authoritative list.

19             I think, Your Honours, it would still also be important, though,

20     to verify it against what we do know from data sources, so I think

21     prudence would require just to check it against what information we know

22     from the census and the other data sources.

23             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  [Microphone not activated]

24             MR. IVETIC:  17 years ago.  Microphone.  Microphone, Your Honour.

25             MR. GROOME:  I agree, Your Honour, it should have been done.

Page 6939

 1             MR. IVETIC:  And now it's --

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Why don't we just do it in court and take the

 3     witness through the list one by one?

 4             MR. GROOME:  I have no objection to that, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Because he apparently has the information.  We

 6     have 70 names and we could ask him to comment on each name.

 7             Mr. Ivetic.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, that's, I believe, what we did with CW1

 9     to a certain extent so I can't object to it being done.  We will make

10     submissions based upon that because there are certain other elements as

11     to reliability, credibility, et cetera, but I have no problem doing that

12     if its' --

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see Mr. Sredoje Lukic has had a toilet break,

14     so we are going to adjourn now and we'll resume at 2.15.  Please consider

15     the proposal that I've made, Mr. Cole and Mr. Ivetic.

16                           --- Recess taken at 1.33 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 2.16 p.m.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  In the break, the Chamber considered the matter,

19     and in the result we'll just have Mr. Cole conclude his examination.

20             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.  What I would indicate

21     is that I think there's been a problem, a little bit of confusion, so I

22     would like to go through each name in the Annex A with the witness.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You're going to do the task that I said I would

24     undertake.  All right.  Well, let's proceed very quickly, then, if that's

25     what you're going to do.

Page 6940

 1             MR. IVETIC:  If I could just briefly, for the record, Your

 2     Honour.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Mr. Cole, and of course Your Honours, can put to the

 5     witness anything they want in terms of the manner of questioning.

 6     However, we would want to reaffirm the statements that Mr. Alarid made

 7     during the testimony or after the testimony of CW1 as to what effect that

 8     is, and that we cannot just merely treat this as a manner of curing the

 9     Prosecution's case and whether they've met the burden of proof at this

10     late stage of the game by simply taking persons incorrectly on the list,

11     taking them off.

12             The effect of that is much more widespread and goes toward the

13     credibility and the truthfulness of the entire Prosecution case on this

14     count and the witnesses that have come during the Prosecution case to

15     testify, and I would just, again, reiterate that all the statements that

16     Mr. Alarid made, I can read through them but I don't think it's

17     necessary, they're in the transcript during CW1, continue to apply and

18     continue to be the Defence's position and objection to merely curing the

19     Prosecution's indictment at this stage, given the testimony that has been

20     there because obviously I would reopen Pandora's box and the case would

21     have to be recalled and it would violate that double jeopardy and we

22     would put to witnesses of the Prosecution different questions if we had a

23     different list to work with.  The indictment is the instrument by which

24     the accused is put on notice --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Counsel, slow down, please, for the

Page 6941

 1     interpreters.  Please slow down.

 2             MR. IVETIC.  ... Respond to that indictment.  This is not the

 3     time and place to be making any new indictments with any new witnesses.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.  We note the submissions

 5     that you have made.

 6             Yes, Mr. Cole.  Now let us move quickly.

 7             MR. COLE:  Yes.

 8        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, you have brought along today a list which contains

 9     a list of those persons whom you believe were killed in the Pionirska

10     fire in Visegrad in 1992; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   That list is the result of input from yourself and relatives of

13     the deceased victims; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Could I just ask you briefly what resources you consulted other

16     than relatives in compiling the list.  I just want to go through, if you

17     could say yes or no to these resources.

18             Did you consult the International Committee of the Red Cross,

19     their resources?

20        A.   They have everything about these missing people.  They are on

21     record as missing, but nothing has been lately done.  We in the family

22     compiled the list because of those children whose ages we were not

23     certain about.

24        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, could you just please concentrate on the question

25     so we can move through this promptly.  I want to ask you about some

Page 6942

 1     resources, whether you consulted them in arriving at your list.  Did you

 2     consult the resources of the International Committee of the Red Cross,

 3     their resources; yes or no?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   This is not a criticism, sir.  Did you consult any of the

 6     censuses from 1991 or onwards?  Once again, it's not a criticism.  Did

 7     you consult any census records in compiling the list?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Which ones?

10        A.   The 1991 census.  I have that census, which is authentic,

11     reliable, and you can get that census too.  It's available to the

12     Tribunal.

13        Q.   Did you consult voters' records?

14        A.   I have the complete material from the municipality of Visegrad,

15     all the lists of the population and the census.

16        Q.   Did you consult the voters' records?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Did you consult the resources of the International Committee For

19     Missing Persons?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   All right.  Now, how many people in total, Mr. Kurspahic, do you

22     believe lost their lives in the Pionirska fire in June 1992?  The total

23     number is what?

24        A.   There's nothing to think about; exactly 53 people were killed in

25     the -- in the torching of that house.  I made the complete list.

Page 6943

 1        Q.   So what's the total number?

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He said 53.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             MR. COLE:

 5        Q.   Does the list you brought with you have 53 names or some other

 6     number?

 7        A.   53.  There's no other number.  It's the one and only list.

 8        Q.   All right.  Now, I'm going to go through the names in the

 9     indictment Annex A very briefly and quickly, and if you need to consult

10     your list, please do so.  And if you could just tell us whether you

11     believe each person as I read the name to you perished in the Pionirska

12     fire or not.  Do you understand that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Before answering, please feel free to check the list that you

15     brought with you.  Do you understand?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Number 1 -- and do you have a copy of the list before you where

18     it says "Annex A" and then 70 names?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   That's the list I'm going to go through.  You consult your list

21     if you need to.  Number 1:  Mula Ajanovic, approximately 75 years old.

22     Did she perish in the Pionirska fire?

23        A.   Yes.  Yes.

24        Q.   Number 2, Adis Delija, approximately 2 years old.  Did that child

25     perish in the Pionirska fire?

Page 6944

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Number 3, Ajnija Delija, approximately 53 years old.  And please

 3     forgive me if I'm not aware if it's masculine or feminine.  Did that

 4     person perish in the Pionirska fire?

 5        A.   Yes, it's a female, Ajnija.

 6        Q.   And if the name needs to be corrected, the spelling needs to be

 7     corrected, can you indicate that please.  The next one, you've testified

 8     previously, number 4, Jasmina Delija, approximately 24 years old.  That

 9     person -- that woman did perish in the Pionirska fire.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Number 5, it doesn't give a family name, just a first name:

12     Hasena, age unknown.  Are you able to say whether someone of that name

13     perished in the Pionirska fire?

14        A.   I can't say anything for certain.  I don't know.

15        Q.   The next one is Tima Jasarevic, age unknown, number 6.  Do you

16     believe that person perished in the Pionirska fire?

17        A.   Her last name is not Jasarevic.  I told you before.  You have the

18     new list.  Let's work with that list, please.  I have that list, and the

19     Defence has it too.

20        Q.   All right.  So what you say for number 6, the person who perished

21     was Tima Halilovic?

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So we'll change Jasarevic to Halilovic?

23             MR. COLE:  Sorry.  Tima Jasarevic was Halilovic.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, he actually testified it was Tima Velic

25     earlier, as well, so I don't know what we'd put on it.  We need

Page 6945

 1     clarification of that.

 2             MR. COLE:  I'm going to go through each --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's Velic, Velic.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Is it Tima Velic?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tima Velic, right.

 6             MR. COLE:  So --

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Which, for the record, Your Honours, is number 69 on

 8     the list.

 9             MR. COLE:  All right.  We'll deal with it that way.  What --

10     okay.

11        Q.   We're going to go through in chronological order.  We're at

12     number 6, and just to clarify that, was there a person called Tima

13     Jasarevic who perished in the Pionirska fire?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   And was there a person called Tima Halilovic who perished in the

16     Pionirska fire?  If you don't know, please say so.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He's checking his notes.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

19             MR. COLE:

20        Q.   Number 7, Hajra Jasarevic, approximately 35 years old.  Did a

21     person by that name perish in the Pionirska fire, or was it another

22     surname, Halilovic?

23        A.   The last name is Halilovic, and she was killed; right.

24        Q.   The next one is Meho Jasarevic, approximately 42 years old.  Did

25     a person by that name perish in the Pionirska fire, or was the surname,

Page 6946

 1     in fact, Halilovic?

 2        A.   Halilovic is the last name; right.

 3        Q.   And the next one, number 9.  In relation to Meho Halilovic, did

 4     that person perish in the Pionirska fire?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Next one, number 9, Mujo Jasarevic, approximately 47 years old.

 7     Is that, in fact, Mujo Halilovic who perished in the --

 8        A.   Halilovic.  Halilovic.

 9        Q.   Yes.  So Mujo Halilovic, approximately 47, perished in the

10     Pionirska fire.  Is that what you're saying?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Number 10, Aisa Kurspahic, approximately 47 years old.  Did that

13     person perish in the Pionirska fire?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Number 11, Aida Kurspahic, approximately 12 years old.  Did that

16     person perish in the Pionirska fire?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Number 12, Ajka, A-j-k-a, Kurspahic, approximately 62 years old.

19     Did that person perish in the Pionirska fire?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Number 13, Alija Kurspahic, approximately 55 years old.  Did that

22     person perish in the Pionirska fire?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Number 14, Almir, A-l-m-i-r, Kurspahic, approximately 10 years

25     old.  Did that person perish in the Pionirska fire?

Page 6947

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And you've told us previously Aner Kurspahic, approximately 6

 3     years old, did perish in the Pionirska fire.  Do you confirm that?

 4        A.   It could be a mistake here.  It could be Vahid instead of Almir.

 5     We need to correct that.  The right first name is Vahid, son of Idajit

 6     [phoen], not Almir.

 7        Q.   So was it Aner?  Do you believe there was an Aner Kurspahic who

 8     perished in the Pionirska fire or not?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Number 16, Becar, B-e-c-a-r, Kurspahic, approximately 52 years

11     old.  Do you believe that person perished in the Pionirska fire?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Number 17, Bisera Kurspahic, approximately 50 years old.  Do you

14     know --

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   I have to ask the question.  Do you believe that person perished

17     in the Pionirska fire.  Your answer's yes?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Bula Kurspahic, did that person -- aged approximately 58 years.

20     Did that person perish in the Pionirska fire?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Number 19, Dzheva, D-z-h-e-v-a, Kurspahic, approximately 22 years

23     old.  Did that person perish in the Pionirska fire?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Number 20, Enesa Kurspahic, approximately 2 years old, E-n-e-s-a.

Page 6948

 1     Did that person perish in the Pionirska fie?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Number 21, surname Kurspahic, first name unknown, approximately 2

 4     days old.  Do you know the name of that person, that baby?

 5        A.   No.  It's an infant who hadn't even got a name.

 6        Q.   And was there such an infant without a name that perished in the

 7     Pionirska fire age about 2 days old?

 8        A.   Yes.  It was exactly 2 days old.  The woman gave birth two days

 9     prior to the fire in the woods.

10        Q.   What was the name of the mother of that baby?  Was it Sadeta,

11     S-a-d-e --

12        A.   Yes, Sadeta, daughter of Muhamed.

13        Q.   Okay.  Number 22, Hasa, H-a-s-a, Kurspahic, approximately 18

14     years old.  Do you believe that person perished in the Pionirska fire?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Number 23, Hajrija Kurspahic, H-a-j-r-i-j-a, Kurspahic,

17     approximately 60 years old.  Did that person perish in the Pionirska

18     fire?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Number 24, Halida Kurspahic, H-a-l-i-d-a, approximately 10 years

21     old.  Did that person perish in the Pionirska fire?

22        A.   Yes.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole, I think he explained already, but I

24     just want to have it in the evidence at this stage.  Number 6, 7, 8, and

25     9, Jasarevic, which he says is Halilovic, what was the explanation,

Page 6949

 1     Witness, as to why that was a mistake?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I did not write this

 3     list with Jasarevic in it.  The right, correct family name is Halilovic.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

 5             Yes, Mr. Cole.

 6             MR. COLE:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Now, I'm just going to ask you about items 25 and 27, and you

 8     testified about these items before:  25, Hana Kurspahic, approximately 30

 9     years old; and Hasiba Kurspahic, number 27, age unknown.  Was it your

10     testimony before that those two entries are in relation to the same

11     person, your sister?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, your sister, how old was she at the time of the fire in

14     1992?  What was her age then?

15        A.   Born 1952, the 13th of May, 1952, so her age was exactly 30.

16        Q.   And was it your testimony before that you are unaware of any

17     other person by the name of Hana Kurspahic or Hasiba Kurspahic?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Could you just give us your sister Hasiba's date of birth again.

20        A.   I don't know.  I think it's the 13th, but I'm no longer sure of

21     anything.

22        Q.   What year?  Was she your older or younger sister?

23        A.   Younger.

24        Q.   Okay.

25        A.   I was born in 1950; she was born in 1952.

Page 6950

 1        Q.   So that means if she was born in 1952, that in 1992 she was 40.

 2     Wouldn't that be correct?

 3        A.   A slip of the tongue.  She was 40, right.  40.

 4        Q.   Okay.  So you'll see that the entries we've got here, one is aged

 5     approximately 30, the other age unknown; but your sister, you confirm,

 6     was age 40 in 1992?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   All right.  I'm going to ask you about -- and your sister

 9     perished in the Pionirska fire, didn't she?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Number 26, Hasan Kurspahic, H-a-s-a-n, approximately 50 years

12     old, and I'll remind you that these are the ages in 1992.  Did a person

13     by that name, do you believe, perished in the Pionirska fire?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Number 28, Hasnija, H-a-s-n-i-j-a, Kurspahic, approximately 62

16     years old.  Did a person by that name perish, in your belief, in the

17     Pionirska fire?

18        A.   No.  Her mother is Pasnija, and she is not Hasnija.  She was not

19     Hasnija.  She was around 35, and she wasn't killed.  She did not perish.

20        Q.   Do you know a Hasnija Kurspahic, approximately 62 years old in

21     1992?

22        A.   I don't know.  I know the younger woman Hasnija who was the

23     daughter of Pasnija, 30ish or so.

24        Q.   So have you ever met a Hasnija Kurspahic who was 62 in 1992 or

25     heard anything about a person of that age?

Page 6951

 1        A.   It's a mistake.  It's Pasija, 62 years old, Pasija, the mother of

 2     this Hasnija woman.  I said that previously for the record.

 3        Q.   No, I just need to finally deal with this name here, so do you --

 4     do you know now or have you ever known a Hasnija Kurspahic who was 62

 5     years of age in 1992?

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... in this

 9     exchange alone, Your Honours.  The witness has been very adamant, very

10     clear.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr ...

12             MR. COLE:  Yes, I'm finished there.  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, number 29, Hata, H-a-t-a, Kurspahic, approximately

14     68 years old.  Do you believe a person by that name perished in the

15     Pionirska fire?

16        A.   Yes, that's my mother.

17        Q.   Number 30, Ifeta Kurspahic, approximately 17 years old.  Do you

18     believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Number 31, Igabala Kurspahic, approximately 58 years old.  Do you

21     believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Number 32, Ismet Kurspahic, approximately 3 years old.  Do you

24     believe a person by that name, a child by that name perished in the

25     Pionirska fire?

Page 6952

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Number 33, Ismeta Kurspahic, approximately 26 years old.  Do you

 3     believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Number 34, Izeta Kurspahic, approximately 24 years old.  Do you

 6     believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?

 7        A.   I don't know.  This name Izeta is unfamiliar to me.  Maybe it's

 8     under another name.  Maybe that person is under another name.  We'll see

 9     as we go along the list.

10        Q.   Very well.  Number 35, Kada Kurspahic, approximately 40 years

11     old.  Do you believe a person by this name perished in the Pionirska

12     fire?

13        A.   The first name is right, but the last name is Sehic.  It's only

14     the maiden name that's Kurspahic.  That's my sister.

15        Q.   So your sister is referred to later at number 67, isn't she,

16     under the name Kada Sehic.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   I just want to ask you specifically about the name Kada Kurspahic

19     at number 35, approximately 40 years old.  Do you or have you - think

20     about it, please - have you ever known a Kada Kurspahic other than your

21     sister, her maiden name?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   All right.  So do you believe that a person called

24     Kada Kurspahic, of that surname perished in the Pionirska fire?

25        A.   No.

Page 6953

 1        Q.   And number 36 is Latifa Kurspahic, approximately 23 years old.

 2     Do you believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Number 37, Lejla, L-a-j-l-a [sic], Kurspahic, approximately 4

 5     years old.  Do you believe she perished in the Pionirska fire?

 6        A.   I don't know.  Let me check on my list.  Maybe it's Latifa's

 7     daughter or Enis's daughter.  Let me check, if you can give me a second.

 8     I don't have the name.  This is Latifa's daughter, most probably.

 9        Q.   All right.  So is your answer that you don't believe this person

10     perished in the Pionirska fire?

11        A.   She didn't.

12        Q.   Number 38, Maida, M-a-i-d-a, Kurspahic, age is unknown.  She was

13     a little girl.  Do you believe a little girl by this name perished in the

14     Pionirska fire?  And if you don't know at any stage, please say so.

15        A.   I don't know.

16        Q.   Number 39, Medina, M-e-d-i-n-a, Kurspahic, approximately 28 years

17     old.  Do you believe a person by this name perished in the Pionirska

18     fire?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Just going back briefly to Maida Kurspahic.  If she was the -- if

21     she was the daughter of Dzehva, D-z-e-h-v-a, who's now deceased, would

22     that assist you with your answer to that entry?

23             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, that sounds like counsel testifying to

24     me.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Are you able to assist?

Page 6954

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure.  I don't know.

 2             MR. COLE:

 3        Q.   Very well.  Number 40, Medo Kurspahic, approximately 50 years

 4     old.  Do you believe that person perished in the Pionirska fire?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Number 41, Mejra, M-e-j-r-a, Kurspahic, approximately 47 years

 7     old.  Do you believe that person perished in the Pionirska fire?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Number 42, Meva, M-e-v-a, Kurspahic, approximately 45 years old.

10     Do you believe that person perished in the Pionirska fire?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Did you see a person called Meva Kurspahic at any time since the

13     Pionirska fire in 1992?

14        A.   Yes.  She died after the war in Sarajevo.  She spent a period of

15     time in Austria as a refugee.

16        Q.   And when did you last see her?

17        A.   Roughly three years ago.  I don't know.  I was supposed to visit

18     her when she was taken ill, and she was with her daughter in Sarajevo,

19     and I was -- I attended the funeral.  I think it was three years ago.

20        Q.   What year would this Meva have been born?

21        A.   Between 45 and 50 years of age.

22        Q.   45 or 50 years of age when?  Do you mean at the time of the

23     Pionirska fire?

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   And is this the same spelling of the person that you saw three

Page 6955

 1     years ago or who died three years ago, M-e-v-a?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   With Meva, are you able to give us her parents' names?

 4        A.   I know that her father's name is Bego and that she was born in

 5     the village of Zlijeb, Visegrad municipality.  I don't know anything

 6     else.  It was a long time ago.

 7        Q.   Number 43, Mina Kurspahic, approximately 20 years old.  Do you

 8     believe that she perished in the Pionirska fire?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10        Q.   Number 44, Mirela, M-i-r-e-l-a, approximately 3 years old in

11     1992.  Do you believe that she perished in the Pionirska fire?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Number 45, Mujesira, M-u-j-e-s-i-r-a, Kurspahic, approximately 35

14     years old.  Do you believe she perished in the Pionirska fire?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Number 46, Munevera, M-u-n-e-v-e-r-a, Kurspahic, approximately 20

17     years old.  Do you believe that she perished in the Pionirska fire?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Number 47, Munira, M-u-n-i-r-a, Kurspahic, approximately 12 years

20     old.  Do you believe she perished in the Pionirska fire?

21        A.   Munira is 15.  She could not have been 12.  That's an error, and

22     she perished, yes.

23        Q.   So you're saying Munira Kurspahic who perished in the fire was,

24     in fact, 15 years old.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter said 50.

Page 6956

 1             MR. IVETIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... something, 52,

 2     I believe he said, but I believe that's the next one on the list.

 3     There's two Muniras.  Counsel has to clarify.

 4             MR. COLE:  Yes.  Thank you for that.

 5        Q.   Witness, there were two Muniras Kurspahics.  One listed as 12 and

 6     one listed as 55 on the list.  I'm going to ask you again about number

 7     47, Munira Kurspahic.  What was the age of the Munira Kurspahic, the

 8     young girl who perished in the Pionirska fire?

 9        A.   I don't know about Munira.  I can see Munira appearing twice.

10     The one under 48 did perish.

11        Q.   All right.  Munira Kurspahic, number 48, approximately 55 years

12     old.  You say she did perish in your belief in the Pionirska fire.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   All right.  I need go back to 47 just to clarify that, please.

15     Number 47 is Munira Kurspahic, which says approximately 12 years old.

16     Was there a young Munira Kurspahic, a girl, who perished in the Pionirska

17     fire and --

18        A.   I don't know.

19        Q.   Does it assist if the -- all right.

20             All right.  I'm moving on to number 49, Osman Kurspahic,

21     approximately 67 years old.  Do you believe a person by that name

22     perished in the Pionirska fire?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Number 50, Kurspahic - and please forgive me if you've been asked

25     before, but I'm going through the list, so we have to ask again -

Page 6957

 1     Kurspahic, it gives alternative first names, Pasana or Pasija,

 2     approximately 56 years old.  Was a person by that name or one of those

 3     names, is it your belief that person perished in the Pionirska fire?

 4        A.   Yes, and her name is Pasija, not Pasana.

 5        Q.   Could you please spell that.

 6        A.   P-a-s-i-j-a, Pasija.

 7        Q.   Number 51 is Ramiza Kurspahic, approximately 57 years old.  Do

 8     you believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   52, Sabiha, S-a-b-i-h-a, Kurspahic, approximately 14 years old.

11     Do you believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Number 53, Sadeta, S-a-d-e-t-a, Kurspahic, approximately 18 years

14     old.  Do you believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska

15     fire?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Number 54, Safa, S-a-f-a, Kurspahic, approximately 50 years old.

18     Do you believe a person by this name perished in the Pionirska fire?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Number 55, Saha or Saha, S-a-h-a, Kurspahic, approximately 70

21     years old.  Do you believe a person by this name perished in the

22     Pionirska fire?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Did you -- have you ever seen a Saha Kurspahic since the date of

25     the Pionirska fire?

Page 6958

 1        A.   Yes.  She survived and lived in Sarajevo.  She died in Sarajevo

 2     and is buried at the city cemetery.  I attended her funeral.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Are you able to give us any of her relatives, the lady you

 4     saw alive, her parents, brothers and sisters, or children.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Parents' names?

 7        A.   I don't know.  She was native of Klasnik, the village next to

 8     Lukic where Milan and Sredoje hail from.  I don't know the name of her

 9     parents.  She was an elderly lady.

10        Q.   Do you know the names of any of her siblings?

11        A.   I do.  One of her brothers is Sulejman, and the other, Imzo.  The

12     third one lived in Visegrad, and he, too, died.  I don't remember his

13     name.  She had a son, Safet, and four daughters.  She lived next-door to

14     my mother's house where I was born and lived.

15        Q.   And other than the lady you're describing now, do you know any

16     other women, or have you ever known any other women with the first name

17     of Saha or Saha?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   And finally on that, the spelling, is it S-a-h-a, as you see

20     before, or is it a capital S with the small accent on the top?

21        A.   S with a diacritic, S-a-h-a, Saha.

22        Q.   Yes, thank you.  Number 56, Sajma, S-a-j-m-a, Kurspahic,

23     approximately 20 years old.  Do you believe a person by this name

24     perished in the Pionirska fire?

25        A.   Yes.  But Sajmija, S-a-j-m-i-j-a, is her full name, whereas Sajma

Page 6959

 1     is her nickname.

 2        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  Now, if you need to correct any of the others

 3     as we move to the end of the list in terms of spelling, please indicate

 4     that.  Number 57, Seila, S-e-i-l-a, Kurspahic, approximately 2 years old.

 5     Do you believe this young child perished in the Pionirska fire?

 6        A.   Yes, but her name is Sejla, S with a diacritic, not an S, but a

 7     Sh, Seila.

 8        Q.   Yes, thank you.  Number 58, and this is possibly Seniha,

 9     S-e-n-i-h-a, approximately 9 years old.  Do you believe a person -- a

10     child by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?

11        A.   Yes, but her name is Seniha.

12        Q.   Okay.  Number 59, Sumbula, S-u-m-b-u-l-a, Kurspahic,

13     approximately 62 years old.  Did a person by this name in your belief

14     perish in the Pionirska fire?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Number 60, Vahid Kurspahic, V-a-h-i-d, approximately 8 years old.

17     Do you believe a person by this name perished in the Pionirska fire?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Number 61, Fazila Memisevic, F-a-z-i-l-a, Memisevic,

20     approximately 54 years old.  Do you believe a person by this name

21     perished in the Pionirska fire?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Number 62, Redzo, R-e-d-z-o, Memisevic, approximately 57 years

24     old.  Do you believe a person by this name perished in the Pionirska

25     fire?

Page 6960

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Number 63, Rabija Sadikovic, R-a-b-i-j-a, Sadikovic,

 3     approximately 52 years old.  Do you believe a person by this name

 4     perished in the Pionirska fire?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, number 64 is Enver Sehic, approximately 13 years old.  Do

 7     you believe a person by this name perished in the Pionirska fire?

 8        A.   No.  Lukic took his father and him together with others out of

 9     the house.  He did not perish in Pionirska.  He was taken away and

10     disappeared without trace.

11        Q.   And did that occur before the Pionirska fire incident or after

12     it?

13        A.   Before.

14        Q.   Now, are you aware of any other persons by name of Enver Sehic,

15     other than your nephew?

16        A.   I don't know.  He's my sister's -- my sister Kada's son.  I don't

17     know any other Emir [as interpreted].

18        Q.   You don't know any other Enver, E-n-v-e-r, Sehics, other than

19     your nephew.

20        A.   No, I don't.

21        Q.   Now, number 65, Faruk Sehic, approximately 12 years old.  Is that

22     your nephew?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And do you believe that he perished in the Pionirska fire?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6961

 1        Q.   Number 66, Haraga, H-a-r-a-g-a, Haraga Sehic, age unknown.  First

 2     I need to ask you, do you recognise the name Haraga as being male or

 3     female?

 4        A.   Haraga should be a male; Hajrija should be a female.  But I don't

 5     know this person.  I don't know.

 6        Q.   So you don't know any Haraga Sehic -- you don't believe that

 7     number 66, Haraga Sehic, perished in the Pionirska fire?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   And was it your testimony that you don't know anyone by this name

10     as it's spelt here?

11        A.   I knew a man by that name, Haraga Sehic from the village of

12     Mala Gostilje, who died before the war, and he's the only one by that

13     name I know.

14        Q.   Number 67, Kada Sehic, approximately 39 years old.  That is your

15     sister who perished in the Pionirska fire.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Number 68, Nurka Velic, N-u-r-k-a, approximately 70 years old.

18     Do you believe this person perished in the Pionirska fire?

19        A.   Yes, but it's not an N, Nurka.  It's an M, M-u-r-k-a.  Murka.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Number 69, Tima Velic, T-i-m-a, approximately 35

21     years old.  Do you believe a person by this name perished in the

22     Pionirska fire?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Number 70, Jasmina Vila, approximately 20 years old.  Do you

25     believe a person by this name perished in the Pionirska fire?

Page 6962

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kurspahic, we've been through the 70 names on this list, one

 3     by one.  Now, in addition to those 70 names, what other names, what other

 4     victims' names, and if you need to consult your list, please do so, what

 5     other names of persons who have not been referred to on the list I've put

 6     to you, what other names do you believe are victims of the Pionirska fire

 7     in June of 1992?

 8             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, we would object, for unscheduled

 9     victims now being brought in by the backdoor at the very eleventh hour of

10     these proceedings.  This is a case without precedent, to have that kind

11     of attempt by the Prosecution.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cole, what do you have to say to that?

13             MR. COLE:  In fairness to the witness, sir, he's brought along a

14     list today.  He's testified to the Court that -- as to the source of the

15     information in his list.  He's referred to that list with that

16     information as he -- we've gone through each of the victims in the

17     indictment; and it would be unfair to the witness who's compiled this

18     list if he's only able to give half his testimony effectively, the ones

19     that we've asked him about, when he has a rich source, it seems, of

20     information not only on the victims we have here but on some others.

21     Counsel's entitled to cross-examine him in due course, but in fairness, I

22     think, sir, he should -- Your Honour, should be able to relate those

23     other names to the Court now.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I would add that the Court needs to be

25     concerned about the fairness of the proceedings and the fairness of my

Page 6963

 1     client in the Rules of Procedure and Evidence and the statute of the

 2     Tribunal and what they require for notice of elements that needs to be

 3     proven by the Prosecution and the case he needs to -- or that he would

 4     need to rebut and address.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Are you seeking to amend the indictment to

 6     include any names that the witness might add?

 7             MR. COLE:  I just had my instruction that we're not intending to

 8     do that, to add any further names.  It's come up --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any other names to

10     add.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  This is a matter for the Chamber, Witness, not

12     for you.

13             MR. COLE:  Well, in fact, sir, he just indicated he didn't have

14     any further names to --

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see.  I didn't hear.  Yes.

16             MR. COLE:  He's obviously put that time to good use, Your Honour.

17        Q.   So the answer to that last question just confirming that, there

18     are no names on your list that I haven't asked you about.

19        A.   No.

20             MR. COLE:  If I could just have a moment, Your Honour.  Oh, yes,

21     there was one matter.

22        Q.   Earlier in your testimony, Mr. Kurspahic, you had a -- maybe a

23     newspaper clipping or something else similar to that that you held up

24     when you were being asked questions by counsel.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I seriously object to this.  This is an

Page 6964

 1     article based upon the video-tape that you did not permit me to introduce

 2     into evidence, so I would strenuously object on that ground.

 3             MR. COLE:  Counsel knows more than I do, Your Honour.  I haven't

 4     seen it, and I don't know what it is.  If it's a newspaper item, perhaps

 5     I can just ask the witness what it is and we can take it from there.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, find out what it is.

 7             MR. COLE:

 8        Q.   Please don't read from it, Mr. Kurspahic, but what is that copy

 9     of a newspaper article that you brought with you?

10        A.   The last time we went up to our village where our people were

11     driven out from, the lad whose wife and small infant were burned gave a

12     statement, and I'm sure that the gentlemen can read this quite well, and

13     I can give it to them.  I think they hail from the region and know the

14     language, and none of what I brought along is a secret.

15        Q.   Yes.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, proceed, Mr. Cole.

17             MR. COLE:

18        Q.   Yes, I have one matter here.  Do you recall during your earlier

19     testimony, Mr. Kurspahic, you were shown a document about

20     Mr. Redzo Memisevic requesting, I think, some property to be returned?

21        A.   This document is not accurate, and I state this upon my full

22     responsibility.  The man is not alive.

23        Q.   So I think the gist of your response to counsel was that members

24     of a deceased person's family can make a request on the name of the

25     deceased person.  Does that summarise your answer?

Page 6965

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And that's your understanding.  It was the family of

 3     Redzo Memisevic making the request on his name.

 4        A.   His son.  His son must have done it, Ibrahim, or actually his

 5     real name is Asim.  To tell you the truth, back where I come from we all

 6     had two names or nicknames.

 7        Q.   And you confirm your earlier testimony that Redzo Memisevic

 8     perished in the Pionirska fire.

 9        A.   Yes.  We've already written that down.

10        Q.   Yes.

11             MR. COLE:  Yes, thank you, Your Honours.  I have no further

12     questions.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

14                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. ... did you have something to say?

17             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I would apply -- there was a

18     portion of the trip that was in closed session by error.  That would be

19     page 41, line 7 through transcript page 53, line 7.  I would ask that

20     that should be reclassified as public as there is no sensitive

21     information contained therein, and the right to a public trial is of

22     paramount concern, especially given the critical matters that were

23     discussed, the very important matters that were discussed in that portion

24     of today's transcript, and I was told that I need to make an application,

25     so I do so now while it's still fresh in everyone's mind.

Page 6966

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You want to have that in public session?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.  It was inadvertently

 3     left in private session, and then I believe at some point in time while

 4     Mr. Cole was doing his examination, it was realised and it was then in

 5     public.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Okay.  We'll have the Registrar confirm what you

 8     have said, Mr. Ivetic, and give the ruling later.

 9             Witness, that concludes your evidence.  We thank you for coming

10     to the Tribunal to give it, and you may now leave.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't need that.

12             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, can I just make sure that we have that --

13     the list that he brought with him, is it in the custody of the Court now?

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The list -- just a minute, Witness.  Do we have

15     the list -- please return to your seat.  May we have the list that you

16     had prepared along with members of your family?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I have left a copy, and I can

18     leave this with you.  I don't need it.  The list is identical.  I also

19     gave a copy to the Defence, and it's one and the same list that allowed

20     me to go through all the names.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you very much.

22             MR. IVETIC:  For the record, we are shown one by the usher, and I

23     believe it was taken, so I do not have a copy.  I don't know whether

24     that's -- I believe that it had already been tendered by Mr. Cole into --

25     as a potential exhibit, and he'd marked it for identification, so it

Page 6967

 1     should also be in the pile, I would imagine.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we had marked it for identification, did

 3     we?

 4             MR. COLE:  [Microphone not activated]... it appears to be the

 5     one -- that I have --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Prosecution.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  You can check.  It's

 8     the same.

 9             MR. COLE:  [Microphone not activated] ... previous from this

10     witness.  I don't know what the other document was.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  I remember now.  We did mark the list for

12     identification.

13             MR. COLE:  Yes, very well.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Pending translation.

15             MR. COLE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... if that is in the custody

16     of the Court, then we don't need a second list from him, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please return what you just got from the

18     witness.  Please return it to him because we already have one marked for

19     identification.

20             MR. COLE:  Your Honour, I just want to make sure that he has not

21     taken the wrong one away.  Perhaps it's an abundance of caution.  Does

22     Your Honour mind if I just see that document that he ...

23             Ah, it seems to be a copy as we have here.  It's a copy.  Okay.

24     Yes, thank you.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 6968

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I have two decisions to give.  On the 3rd of

 2     November, 2008, the Trial Chamber determined that Dr. Wil Fagel's

 3     testimony will only become relevant if and when certain documents here

 4     referred to as the Defence documents are introduced by the Defence of

 5     Milan Lukic in support of its Defence of alibi.

 6             On the 25th of March, 2009, the Trial Chamber affirmed that

 7     Dr. Fagel could testify as an alibi rebuttal witness and limited his

 8     testimony to the Defence documents and a particular hand-drawn map, but

 9     only to the extent that such documents are admitted into evidence.

10     Dr. Fagel is scheduled to testify on Wednesday.  That's tomorrow.  One of

11     the Defence documents was introduced by the Milan Lukic Defence on the

12     1st of September, 2008.  And it is Exhibit 1D25.

13             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  On the 3rd of April, the Prosecution rebuttal

15     witness, Stoja Vujicic, was specifically asked questions concerning the

16     authenticity of the Defence documents.  Upon the Prosecution's request,

17     four of the documents were admitted as P320, 321, 322, and 323.  The

18     hand-drawn map has not been tendered into evidence by any party.

19             At the time the Prosecution tendered the four documents into

20     evidence, the Milan Lukic Defence noted for the record that in line with

21     the Trial Chamber's 3rd November, 2008, decision, these documents could

22     not be the basis for calling Dr. Fagel.  The Prosecution did not comment

23     on the submissions.

24             All but one of the Defence documents have been introduced into

25     evidence by the Prosecution.  In the Trial Chamber's opinion, therefore,

Page 6969

 1     Dr. Fagel could only testify about Exhibit 1D25, the one document which

 2     is properly tendered by the Defence of Milan Lukic in support of the

 3     Defence of alibi.

 4             The Chamber, therefore, holds that it is not in the interest of

 5     judicial economy at this point in the proceedings to have Dr. Fagel

 6     testify.  However, the Prosecution may tender into evidence the relevant

 7     part of Dr. Fagel's report, which concerns 1D25.

 8             I proceed to the next decision:

 9             On the 3rd of April, the Chamber granted the Prosecution's

10     request to remove VG-145 from its list of rebuttal witnesses.  Today, the

11     Prosecution requested once more to add VG-145 as a rebuttal witness.  The

12     Defence of Milan Lukic stated in response that Mr. Alarid had prepared to

13     cross-examine VG-145 and that he's out of the country.

14             In the Defence view, it would be improper for Mr. Ivetic to

15     examine VG-145 in light of the serious allegations the Prosecution

16     raised.

17             The Chamber notes that it has heard one of the three witnesses

18     whom the Prosecution sought to bring following the Chamber's oral

19     decision on 13th March, 2009; that is VG-146.  In that decision, the

20     Chamber stated that the allegations made by the Prosecution in its motion

21     for contempt raised, and here I quote, "a question as to whether the

22     evidence that the Chamber has heard from MLD1 and might hear from VG-145

23     and others is reliable, and its impact if any on the Chamber's assessment

24     on the evidence in the proceedings as a whole."

25             For these reasons and considering the stage of the proceedings,

Page 6970

 1     the evidence on the record which is potentially affected and that the

 2     Prosecution has called VG-146, the Chamber is not persuaded that it is

 3     necessary to hear VG-145, and the Prosecution's request is therefore

 4     denied.

 5             That's the end of the second decision.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6971

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Next decision.  On the 2nd of April, the Defence

10     of Milan Lukic filed a motion requesting that the deadline for the final

11     briefs be moved to Monday, the 11th of May, and that closing arguments be

12     held in the week of 18th of May.  It also requested each party be

13     allotted 180 to 240 minutes for closing arguments.

14             The Prosecution responded on the 3rd of April, disputing the

15     allegations made by the Defence motion, and requests that the Chamber

16     order that all final trial briefs are to be submitted simultaneously.

17     The Prosecution states that it defers to the Chamber regarding matters of

18     scheduling.

19             The Chamber has considered the submissions and notes that several

20     of the Defence arguments have been raised in past extension requests,

21     several of which the Chamber has granted.  But the Chamber is sensitive

22     to the Defence situation, particularly in light of the fact that

23     Mr. Alarid as lead counsel is absent.

24             The Chamber, therefore, orders that all parties are to file their

25     final briefs by Wednesday, 22nd April, 4.00 p.m., and closing arguments

Page 6972

 1     are to be presented Monday, 27th April, at a time and in a courtroom to

 2     be announced.  But the Chamber does not see any reason at this point to

 3     vary the time previously allotted to each party for presenting the final

 4     submissions.

 5             The Chamber considers that this also disposes of the request of

 6     the Defence in its third notice, filed on 2nd April, for a pause in the

 7     proceedings to permit further verification of the indictment's list of

 8     victims of the Pionirska Street incident.

 9             End of that decision.

10             Next one:

11             On the 2nd of April, the Defence of Milan Lukic filed a motion

12     with several requests in relation to Witness CW1, whose testimony claims

13     calls into question the list of alleged victims of the Pionirska Street

14     incident.  The Defence has presented evidence to the effect that three

15     persons listed as deceased in Annex A of the indictment are alive and by

16     which it seeks to cast doubt on the status of several other persons

17     listed in Annex A.

18             However, the fact that three persons may have been confirmed

19     alive does not warrant the automatic dismissal of counts in the

20     indictment.  Any issues raised by such evidence are more properly

21     considered during the Chamber's deliberations.  The Defence request in

22     this regard is therefore denied.

23             Also denied is the request that the trial be declared a mistrial.

24             Finally, the Defence requests that all of the Prosecution's

25     witnesses for the Pionirska Street incident be recalled to testify.  Such

Page 6973

 1     a course of action would, however, be contrary to the interests of

 2     judicial economy at this advanced stage of the proceedings.  The Chamber

 3     has accommodated the Defence by permitting Huso Kurspahic to be called as

 4     a Chamber witness in light of new information provided by him concerning

 5     victims of the Pionirska Street incident.

 6             Without any similar information from other Prosecution witnesses,

 7     the Chamber cannot see the merit in the Defence request, which is

 8     consequently denied.

 9             The Chamber considers that this decision also disposes of the

10     remaining requests from the third notice as to named murder victims in

11     the indictment for whom evidence exists that they're alive, filed on the

12     2nd of April, 2009.  End of decision.

13             Mr. Groome.

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I want to address the Chamber on its

15     first decision and just remind the Chamber of the procedural history, and

16     perhaps the Chamber would reconsider its decision.

17             With respect to Dr. Fagel's report, if the Chamber recalls, the

18     reason -- well, the documents were given to the Prosecution in support of

19     the alibi.  It was because the Chamber had required us to submit or

20     present our rebuttal case in our case in chief that we were required to

21     disclose his findings with respect to those documents prior to them being

22     tendered.  One was tendered prior to that report, and then the report was

23     disclosed, and then the other documents weren't tendered.  I submit,

24     Your Honour, that since they were provided to the Prosecution by an

25     officer of the Court with the representation that they were going -- they

Page 6974

 1     supported the alibi that the Prosecution shouldn't be denied the ability

 2     to introduce evidence in light -- in view -- in the form of Dr. Fagel

 3     showing that they are, in fact, forged documents.

 4             They're also, Your Honour, the one document that was introduced

 5     is inextricably linked to the other documents in that Dr. Fagel's opinion

 6     is based on the fact that all of the signatures on the documents are

 7     carbon copies or digital copies.  They're exactly the same.  He's unable

 8     to say that if it's just talking about the single isolated document.

 9             And then with respect to the map, Your Honour, except your

10     decision with respect to VG-145, the person that we intended to introduce

11     that, but discussing it with some colleagues last evening, I think

12     there's an alternative theory upon which the map could be introduced

13     through Dr. Fagel.  Someone reminded me yesterday evening that the

14     conviction in the Charles Lindbergh case was based on an handwriting

15     expert saying that the ransom note was -- the hand was written by the

16     hand of the particular accused in that case.

17             I believe that we could establish the foundation of the map and

18     its attribution to Mr. Milan Lukic through Dr. Fagel.  It does contain

19     information about what happened at the Drina that only a person, I

20     believe, who was present at the Drina could provide, so it would be my

21     submission, Your Honour, that if the Chamber credits Dr. Fagel's evidence

22     with respect to who drafted the map that the Chamber would be entitled to

23     admit the exhibit into evidence.

24             And Your Honour, just one other -- sorry, and then I'm finished

25     for the day.  One other thing.  If we're not permitted to call Dr. Fagel,

Page 6975

 1     I would just ask if we get a later start for VG-94.  She arrives late

 2     this evening, and we'll not be able to speak with her this evening.  If

 3     we could just have an hour in the morning just to see what her state of

 4     mind is like and prepare her for her testimony tomorrow.  I'd appreciate

 5     that.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The first mart is essentially a request for

 7     reconsideration, so I wanted to hear from Mr. Ivetic.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honour, with respect to Dr. Fagel, the

 9     parties have been operating based upon the Trial Chamber's ruling of -- I

10     forget if it was 8th or 4th November, stating that if the Defence

11     introduced documents, Mr. Fagel would be permitted to testify.  We did

12     not introduce those documents.  The Prosecution cannot introduce its own

13     controversy into the case then ask its own expert to opine on the

14     controversy.

15             There's one very simple explanation for the document that

16     apparently counsel nor Dr. Fagel have considered, and we would be making

17     that in our submissions, since it appears he is not appearing, so we will

18     not be cross-examining on the topic.  Your Honours have ruled, rightly

19     so, I think, with respect to the history of the case and the manner on

20     which those documents came in.  We brought live witnesses who testified

21     as to the alibis, and Your Honours can consider those live witnesses and

22     make the appropriate findings, and I think that -- I would strongly

23     oppose reconsideration, and I think that the order should stand.  It's in

24     line with the Court's prior decision and the course of practice of how

25     the parties operated was under that prior order.  So if we're now

Page 6976

 1     changing the prior order, then obviously persons might have done things a

 2     little differently.  Thank you.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  In the Chamber's view, it hasn't heard anything

 5     from the Prosecutor that would warrant reconsideration in the interests

 6     of justice, and we haven't heard any new material being presented, so the

 7     Chamber will not grant the request for reconsideration.

 8             We'll start at 10.00 tomorrow morning.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.40 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of

11                           April, 2009, at 10.00 a.m.