090408ED

Page 7009

1 I'm to explore with him, I'm prepared to move forward and ask him his

2 explanation of how that happened. I'm not sure if there are other issues

3 the Court wishes to have explored with this witness. I have Ms. Sartorio

4 coming down now so she is more familiar with the witness, but ...

5 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you are correct, Mr. Groome.

7 Examination by Mr. Groome:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Spahic. I'm not sure if you will remember

9 me, but you and I met about eight years ago during the Vasiljevic trial.

10 Thank you for returning. There is an issue that has arisen in the course

11 of this trial that the Chamber would like explored further by the

12 parties, and we believe you have some knowledge about it. So my first

13 question to you is, do you know a person by the name of Hamdija Vilic?

14 A. But his name is Hamdija Vilic, not Velic, I believe.

15 Q. I'm sorry, if I mispronounced his name.

16 How do you know him?

17 A. I knew him superficially from Visegrad from before the war. I

18 got to know him better in Visoko because we were together in the same

19 unit for awhile until he lost his arm, effectively. I would socialise

20 with him after the war as well. He lives in Vogosca and I have some

21 friends residing over there. We are not very close friends, but we do

22 know each other pretty well.

23 Q. And could you give us an idea, in the last couple of years with

24 what frequency would you see Hamdija Vilic?

25 A. Not that frequently. His brother has a weekend cottage house

Page 7010

1 close to my home and I am on closer terms with his brother whom I see

2 almost every day. I do not see Hamdija that often, perhaps once every

3 couple of months or once every six months.

4 Q. Now, did there come a time in this -- in 2008 that you became

5 aware that he had information that might be relevant to this trial?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can I ask you to tell us, as best you are able to remember, what

8 was -- when did you learn that he may have had information?

9 A. As I came back from my testimony in 2008, I don't recall the

10 exact date, I left this courtroom for Bosnia, my badzo [phoen] came, in

11 other words, my wife's sister's husband, he came to visit. And as we

12 discussed many issues including my testimony here, at one point he told

13 me that he had been sitting at a table with this man, Hamdija, who told

14 him that he had been called by Milan Lukic directly from the prison, from

15 Scheveningen, and that he had offered him a sum of money in exchange of

16 his testimony in support of the Defence, that he should say that he and

17 his unit had encircled Milan Lukic in the area of Kopito, and that was

18 roughly it.

19 However, as is natural, I had just come back from my testimony

20 here where in the courtroom we discussed precisely the issue concerning

21 Kopito. I did not get in touch with Hamdija or anyone else, I got in

22 touch with the Tribunal's office down in Sarajevo. I asked that I be put

23 through to Prosecutor Laurie, I did, and I told her what I knew because I

24 wanted to let her know that should such a man appear as a Defence

25 witness, such and such a man, that he was going to give false testimony.

Page 7011

1 Several days later, I got the ICTY in touch with Hamdija

2 directly, and they settled the matter directly. I don't know what

3 happened. I only know that Hamdija subsequently appeared as a witness

4 here.

5 I never met with Hamdija since that time to this day in fact.

6 Although I would very much wish to.

7 Q. Okay. The first you learned of this information is after you

8 left The Hague, after you've testified?

9 A. Yes, yes. Upon my return from here. It happened several days

10 after my return from The Hague where I testified. It could have been two

11 to three days after my return that badzo came to visit, we talked, and he

12 drew my attention to the fact that he was together with the man who had

13 received the call, and things followed on from there as I relayed them.

14 Q. Did badzo give you any idea about when he had the conversation

15 with Hamdija Vilic about this phone call from Milan Lukic?

16 A. Well, yes, he did not really give it much thought. This piece of

17 information was unimportant to him. This badzo, brother-in-law of mine

18 is outside of all of these events. However, as soon as I mentioned

19 Kopito as part of my testimony here, he replied that this other man had

20 told him precisely the story about Kopito, that he should tell the story

21 of how he had held Milan Lukic in encirclement in the area of Kopito and

22 how several days later he managed to escape.

23 That's when I felt the urge to make a telephone call to the

24 Tribunal to give them some preliminary information. Subsequently, I got

25 them in touch with Hamdija which resulted in Hamdija's appearance before

Page 7012

1 the court.

2 As far as Hamdija is concerned, even before he -- before he

3 appeared in the courtroom, he had talked of some -- or reported some

4 officers in Sarajevo who had got in touch with him and told him that he

5 should not be testifying about these matters as it is a very dangerous

6 thing.

7 Q. Now, prior to your testimony in this trial here, did anyone from

8 the Office of the Prosecution tell you the places that Milan Lukic was

9 claiming to be during the allegations in this indictment?

10 A. No, no.

11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, unless there's another area that the

12 Chamber would like me to explore, I can think of nothing else to go into.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Groome.

14 Mr. Ivetic.

15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, without having the documents in front

16 of me, I could begin cross-examination based on what Mr. Groome has just

17 led, if that is in the interests of judicial economy to try and get

18 going, but I'd like to have the opportunity to at least see the one

19 document that I recall which was a memorandum attached to one of our

20 filings that was the basis of our seeking to have this witness brought

21 here, which I haven't yet been able to locate again. I'm told JDB is not

22 working at all so my one support staff is not able to get that document,

23 but I would be more than happy to cross-examine on these points that have

24 been just raised now in the examination of Mr. Groome while we wait for

25 that.

Page 7013

1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if it might assist I'll ask

2 Mr. van Hooydonk if he can locate a copy of that Prosecution memorandum,

3 I believe it's what Mr. Ivetic is referring to, and he'll send it to the

4 court deputy and maybe she could print it out.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Groome.

6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

8 Q. Good day, sir. My name is Dan Ivetic. We did not have occasion

9 to meet last time that you were here at this Tribunal, so I greet you,

10 and it's my turn to ask you some questions about Mr. Vilic and the

11 matters that you've just testified about. So good day, sir.

12 A. Good day to you.

13 Q. Now, if we could start first by you mentioned that Mr. Hamdija

14 Vilic and yourself were in a unit together. What unit was that and what

15 armed forces was that a unit part of?

16 A. Well, I don't recall the details. I think it was the 321st

17 Visoko Brigade. As for the company or platoon, I really can't tell you

18 that.

19 Q. And was that part of the army of the Republic of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina comprised of a majority of Bosnian Muslim nationals?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And was that comprised by a majority of Bosnian Muslim nationals

23 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. The majority were, although there were members of other

25 ethnicities.

Page 7014

1 Q. And is that the same army unit that was chronicled in the book by

2 Ibran Mustafic, the Bosnian Muslim writer who spent some time with

3 Mr. Vilic and other fighters of the Bosnian Muslim army?

4 A. I didn't read the book by Ibran Mustafic and I don't think it

5 refers to this because he should not have had anything to do with that

6 unit. He would have been writing about Srebrenica. I doubt that he had

7 any information about Visoko. At any rate, I don't know. I didn't read

8 the book.

9 Q. Let me ask you this: Prior to becoming a member of the same unit

10 with Hamdija Vilic, do you have information as to what unit

11 Mr. Hamdija Vilic was a member of prior to arriving at Visoko while he

12 was still within either the Zepa, Visegrad or Srebrenica area?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did Mr. Vilic ever talk to you about being in Hranjevac as part

15 of an armed force with his brothers? Hranjevac?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Mr. Vilic and his brothers would go by a nickname Zuti or Zuco;

18 isn't that correct?

19 A. I don't know that either. Zuco, no. His face is rather

20 yellowish, though. I'm not sure about his nickname. We are not that

21 close. It was by happenstance that we were members of the same unit. I

22 know that his family members were all killed, he did talk about that,

23 but ...

24 Q. I'm trying to wait for the translation to catch up with us, sir.

25 I can follow you in our language but I have to wait for the English.

Page 7015

1 A. Fine.

2 Q. The point I want to make is that that nickname Zuco or Zuti

3 refers to the yellow colour of someone's appearance, is that correct, in

4 the Bosnian -- in our native language?

5 A. Yes.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Witness repeat, please.

7 MR. IVETIC:

8 Q. Prior to coming here -- sorry, sir, you are being asked to repeat

9 your answer by the interpreters who apparently did not catch your

10 response. Could you please repeat your response to my question which

11 was: The point I want to make is that the nickname Zuco or Zute refers

12 to the yellow colour of someone, is that correct, in our native language?

13 You need to repeat your answer, sir.

14 A. Yes. His hair was yellow and his complexion was yellow. So any

15 other nickname would not really be appropriate in his case.

16 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, I'd like to ask you, prior to your coming

17 to testify the last time, did you have any discussions with

18 Mr. Hamdija Vilic about your coming here to testify before this Tribunal

19 in these proceedings?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. And am I correct -- or did I follow your testimony

22 correctly that you did not have any contact or discussions with Mr. Vilic

23 directly after you left this Tribunal the last time?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Then I have a question for you, because I have here recorded from

Page 7016

1 the transcript that you said that you eventually -- you eventually got

2 the Tribunal in contact with Hamdija. How did you effectuate that? Did

3 you -- how did that happen that you got the Tribunal into contact with

4 Hamdija? Tell us the logistics of that.

5 A. Through my badzo, brother-in-law, who works close to where

6 Hamdija lives in Vogosca, who sees him every day. He had his phone

7 number, and he gave Hamdija's phone number to the Tribunal. I didn't see

8 Hamdija either before or after that.

9 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated that Hamdija Vilic was a member of your

10 unit until he had the circumstances of his arm. Are you familiar with

11 how he lost his arm when he threw two hand-grenades at a group of fellow

12 Bosnian Muslim soldiers in a bar as part of a bar brawl?

13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would submit that we are going now

14 beyond the scope of why this witness was called here. He wasn't called

15 to dig up the dirt, as it were, on Hamdija Vilic. He was here and he

16 answered all of these allegations directly. I believe Mr. Spahic was

17 brought here for the rather limited purpose of the circumstances

18 surrounding his conveyance of information to the Prosecution and how

19 Mr. Vilic came to testify.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: The logistics as you yourself described?

21 MR. IVETIC: That is correct, Your Honour. I'm going into how

22 well he knows Mr. Vilic and what contact there's been with him before.

23 This is a part that they brought up. I mean, he testified about it in

24 direct, so.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated]

Page 7017

1 MR. IVETIC: The microphone wasn't --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I said continue.

3 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

4 Q. Sir, did you know the circumstances of when and where and how

5 Mr. Hamdija Vilic lost his arm, that it was involved in a -- when he

6 threw two hand-grenades at a crowd of civilians and fellow Bosnian Muslim

7 soldiers?

8 A. I did hear of it, but I didn't hear of him having hurled two

9 hand-grenades. I think it -- the story only mentioned one. It was in

10 the early morning hours in a bar where he was with a group of people. I

11 believe even his brother was there, according to the information I had.

12 They had drinks and then there was some commotion and that Vilic left the

13 bar and came back holding a hand-grenade, one.

14 And as there was some skirmish around the hand-grenade, it went

15 off, exploded, and he lost his arm, and two men who were there lost their

16 lives. This is the extent of what I heard.

17 Q. Okay. Thank you. In the time that you knew Mr. Vilic, was he

18 prone to heavy drinking?

19 A. I didn't know him too well. I didn't know that aspect, and there

20 wasn't all that much drink during the war that someone could -- I mean, I

21 don't think he was an alcoholic.

22 Q. Okay. And is it your understanding from your badzo that

23 Mr. Vilic, Mr. Hamdija Vilic, that his story was that Milan Lukic called

24 him and offered him money over the telephone? Was that Mr. Vilic's story

25 told to your badzo?

Page 7018

1 A. Well, that would be the substance of it. I don't know exactly

2 the words that were uttered, but this is something that Vilic said and

3 then I heard it and that's the gist of it, approximately. But I couldn't

4 tell you verbatim the conversation.

5 Q. Okay. Now, if I can ask you this, you indicated that his entire

6 family had died. His entire family died in Prelovo, is that accurate?

7 Hamdija Vilic's family, I should say.

8 A. He told me about that while we were still in the unit. I can't

9 really remember it too well. I know that they had perished in one of the

10 burning houses in Visegrad. I may be mistaken. I don't know whether

11 that was the case, but I think his wife and children were killed then,

12 and whether anybody else was killed, I wouldn't know, but that's

13 something that I heard from him. But this was a long time ago so I

14 really can't say for sure.

15 Q. Okay. And now, one part that confused me. First of all, did you

16 have any contact with any members of the Bosnian police or the Bosnian

17 SIPA or the Bosnian, I guess it's the IDA [phoen] would be the other one,

18 I think, the secret police, et cetera, any of the security organs of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you have any contact with them in reference to

20 Mr. Hamdija Vilic?

21 A. No, absolutely not.

22 Q. Okay. Now, you said that -- you said in your examination by

23 Mr. Groome that it's your understanding that Mr. Hamdija Vilic had

24 already contacted officers in Sarajevo who had advised him, and I'd like

25 to know, am I to take from that that Mr. Vilic had already contacted some

Page 7019

1 officials prior to your contacting the ICTY?

2 A. I wouldn't know that really. I think not. Judging by the

3 reaction of the Prosecutors when I called them here, I think that this

4 news had not reached this Tribunal before, prior to that.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... question. Let me see if I

6 can find that one section, so I can do it very, very succinctly.

7 And you said at page 35, line 4, you say:

8 "As far as Hamdija is concerned, even before he -- before he

9 appeared in the courtroom, he had talked of some, or reported to some

10 officers in Sarajevo who had gotten in touch with him and told him that

11 he should not be testifying about these matters as it is a very dangerous

12 thing."

13 What officers in Sarajevo were you making reference to that

14 Hamdija Vilic spoke with and received advice from?

15 A. No, no, let me explain it. I don't know the names of these

16 officers or anything. I don't know it in such detail, but I know that

17 this man being not -- being rather poor, I was just worried that he might

18 be caught into a trap and I wanted to warn him not to follow that path.

19 So -- but it turned out Hamdija was not that type of person. He had

20 already talked to some officers. He sought their advice. I really don't

21 know their names. I never met Hamdija and discussed this with him.

22 Q. Then I would like to know how it is that you know that he had

23 already talked with some officers and sought their advice, how does that

24 knowledge come to you, sir, if you did not have contact with

25 Mr. Hamdija Vilic?

Page 7020

1 A. Well, I learned of that from my badzo, my brother-in-law, because

2 he works close to where Hamdija is, because Hamdija frequents a cafe

3 nearby. And I know I'd never seen him after that, and I know that he was

4 advised by some officers not to play that game, that it was a rather

5 dangerous thing to do.

6 Q. And that is what I'm asking you, what is your knowledge of the

7 officers that Hamdija Vilic talked with and that advised him? What

8 agency of the Bosnian government were those officers engaged with?

9 A. Nothing. Nothing, I absolutely know nothing. No names, no last

10 name, nothing.

11 Q. Would your badzo know?

12 A. I don't know. It is possible that he knows that, but we never

13 discussed this, we never discussed any names, so ...

14 Q. But am I correct that your badzo is your only source for your

15 information that Hamdija Vilic had spoken with officers of some agency

16 who had given him advice?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just so the record may reflect, I have

19 provided the memo, and I see Mr. Ivetic has it and is looking at it now.

20 MR. IVETIC: And I thank you for that.

21 Q. Okay, sir. I forgot if I asked you this earlier, but what -- how

22 is your badzo employed and -- and -- I have avoided using his name. As

23 far as I know, it has not been mentioned in these proceedings. So for

24 purposes of his confidentiality, you don't have to mention his name, but

25 if you could tell us what his area of employment is or occupation?

Page 7021

1 A. Oh, he does technical inspection of vehicles.

2 Q. And just so we are clear, did you follow any of Mr. Vilic's

3 testimony here in The Hague, or did you hear of it through your badzo?

4 A. No, I did follow something over the internet and some of it I

5 read in the dailies back home.

6 Q. So you do read the dailies. Did you perhaps read Bum [phoen]

7 magazine where Mr. Vilic's testimony was discussed and the identity of a

8 Defence protected witness was attempted to be revealed?

9 A. I don't read Bum magazine, so, no.

10 Q. And with respect to the advice that was given to Mr. Vilic, that

11 it was a dangerous thing to testify, am I correct in understanding that

12 any Bosnian Muslim who would agree to be a Defence witness in this

13 proceeding would have negative consequences back in their home country

14 from their fellow Bosniak Muslims?

15 A. No, that was not the context that I mentioned, but that's where

16 the danger was. It was dangerous to take money.

17 Q. Okay. And again, you don't know what advice was given to him,

18 because you don't know what agency he spoke with, at what stage that

19 advice was given; is that accurate?

20 A. No, no.

21 Q. Okay. And just to return to one last point, we mentioned

22 Hranjevac before, the village of Hranjevac. Do you know where that

23 village is and where it is in relation to Kopito, how close?

24 A. I know the village of Hranjevac. I know the general area where

25 it is, but I've never been there, so I don't really know.

Page 7022

1 Q. You say you are familiar with the region from where Hranjevac is,

2 the general area, is Kopito in that same area, that same part of the

3 municipality as Hranjevac?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, sir. I think I have exhausted all my

6 questions for this witness. I thank you, sir, for coming back here to

7 testify and to clear up these matters for us.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are welcome.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for testifying. That concludes your

10 evidence, and you may now leave.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: An inquiry is being made as to whether the other

15 witness is in a position to return.

16 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll resume at 2.15. The witness is not

18 sufficiently composed to attend court now.

19 MR. IVETIC: Will that be in courtroom II, Your Honour? Will

20 that still be in courtroom II at 2.15?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are in the same courtroom.

22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, can I make use of just some of the time

24 to just deal with a couple of administrative matters. One is the exhibit

25 that was marked for identification yesterday, P333. If you recall that