Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 631

1 Wednesday, 4 June 2003

2 [Status Conference]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will the Registrar call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour. This is Case Number

8 IT-99-37-PT, the Prosecutor versus Milan Milutinovic, Dragan Ojdanic, and

9 Nikola Sainovic.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. And may we have the

11 appearances.

12 MS. ROMANO: Christina Romano on behalf of the Prosecution. And

13 here with my colleagues, Mr. Milbert Shin, Ms. Christina Miller, and

14 Rebecca Graham.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. And for the Defence.

16 MR. LIVINGSTON: John Livingston for Milan Milutinovic.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my name is Vladimir

18 Petrovic. I am a lawyer from Belgrade and I'm here for Mr. Nikola

19 Sainovic.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, and for Mr. Ojdanic. Yes.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Tomislav Visnjic, lawyer from

22 Belgrade for Dragoljub Ojdanic

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. This is another Status

24 Conference, which we are having pursuant to the requirements of Rule 65.

25 We have a number of matters to discuss. And I believe it is fair to say

Page 632

1 that the pre-trial matters are coming to some kind of a conclusion. And

2 it is my expectation that at the end of this hearing, the pre-trial

3 process would have been advanced significantly.

4 First let us deal with the pending motions. We had the motion

5 from the accused Milutinovic for provisional release. And that decision

6 was rendered yesterday. There is a motion outstanding for protective

7 measures. That's being considered by the Trial Chamber, and I'm in a

8 position to say that the decision will be given shortly. There is the

9 motion from Mr. Ojdanic for additional funds. That has been analysed by

10 the Chamber and a decision was given which requires a response from the

11 Registry. And the date for that response is the 13th of June. So we

12 expect to bring that matter to conclusion shortly after the Registry puts

13 in its response. There is the application for binding order addressed to

14 NATO states from Mr. Ojdanic. In this regard, a further submission from

15 Mr. Ojdanic is expected by the 20th of June.

16 I turn now to the pre-trial brief, and I just give a brief history

17 of the matter. At the last status conference, I instructed the

18 Prosecution to file its pre-trial brief no later than one month after the

19 decisions on preliminary motions were filed. The last of these decisions

20 was issued by the Chamber on the 6th of May. And I understand that you

21 were instructed at the 65 ter conference to have the Prosecution brief on

22 the 6th of June. But on the 21st of May, the Prosecution filed a motion

23 seeking a postponement of the submission of its pre-trial brief until

24 after the Appeals Chamber had disposed of the pending appeals on

25 jurisdiction. Two such appeals: The first one relates to the question of

Page 633

1 a joint criminal enterprise, and the decision was given on the 21st of

2 May, 2003. But the appeal in connection with jurisdiction over events in

3 Kosovo is still pending; however, those proceedings have been stayed by

4 the Appeals Chamber pending the Trial Chamber's determination of the

5 Ojdanic motion for additional funds.

6 I have given this matter some thought. And in the circumstances,

7 it's difficult, if not impossible, to fix a definitive date for the

8 submission of the Prosecution's pre-trial brief. So what I'm going to do

9 is to fix a date that is related to the Appeals Chamber's ruling on the

10 Ojdanic motion on jurisdiction over events in Kosovo, so the Prosecution

11 will have one month after the Appeals Chamber's decision on the Ojdanic

12 Kosovo jurisdiction matter to present its pre-trial brief.

13 As for the Defence, the Defence will have three months after the

14 presentation by the Prosecution of its pre-trial brief. Disclosure of

15 witness statements, 66(A)(i) statements, disclosure completed for all

16 three accused; 66(A)(ii) statements, disclosure again completed with the

17 exception of nine witnesses in respect of whom an application for

18 protective measures has been made.

19 I made reference to that earlier and indicated that the Chamber

20 would be ruling shortly on that issue.

21 Expert witnesses, I understand that all expert reports have been

22 disclosed, both in B/C/S and in English, and the only issue outstanding

23 relates to the underlying material used for the report of the expert

24 Patrick Ball. Here, I understand, and I will hear from the parties, that

25 the Prosecution takes the position that it is not required to produce this

Page 634

1 material unless it forms part of the actual report. But I understand that

2 the matter is now left for the Ojdanic Defence to inform the Prosecution

3 of its exact concerns. So I think I'll ask the Ojdanic Defence to bring

4 us up to date on that. Mr. Visnjic.

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are still

6 considering the material that we have received from the Prosecution, and

7 we are still trying to formulate our next request. As it was said at the

8 65 ter conference, we already said that we would make our submission in

9 writing. If we have any problems in this regard, we shall turn to the

10 Trial Chamber and ask it to offer us a solution.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, that's what the Trial Chamber is

12 there for. Ultimately, if you can't resolve the matter, the Trial Chamber

13 will resolve it on the appropriate application being made. But it is my

14 expectation that you will be able to -- you will resolve this matter with

15 the Prosecution.

16 Rule 68 disclosure, this is a little bit more complicated because

17 it is linked to Rule 70. I'll just give a very quick run-down of the

18 history. At the last conference, I required the Prosecution to disclose

19 to the Defence by the 10th of May all Rule 68 material for which the

20 consent of a Rule 70 provider is required. And the Prosecution was to

21 report to the Trial Chamber by the 10th of June whether there remained

22 Rule 68 material for which such consent had not yet been obtained. Now,

23 at the 65 ter conference, I understand the Prosecution confirmed that it

24 had made all the necessary approaches to Rule 70 providers, but was

25 awaiting responses. I just received a report from the Prosecutor on

Page 635

1 disclosure under Rule 68. So can I ask you, Ms. Romano, to comment and

2 take us through the -- your report which I only just received.

3 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, as it's mentioned in the report that you

4 have received, at the Status Conference on the 13th of February, the

5 Office of the Prosecutor indicated that 1200-person working days were

6 necessary as you might know. We estimated to do that work within two to

7 three months at that time. What happened after was that -- after the

8 Prosecution deliberately and voluntarily changed the search criteria, we

9 identified new search terms. And that is the criteria right now that you

10 have in hands. And that copy is the most -- contains the most updated

11 estimates for our Rule 68 search. So if you have your copy, and I don't

12 know if the Defence has copies already? Yes, they have.

13 If you -- I can walk you through that document. Your Honour, in

14 the right-hand column is -- are the days remaining to be completed, the

15 days of work remaining to be completed. If I get one search for you, and

16 I will try to explain. For instance, if you have the name Zeljko

17 Raznatovic, it's the fifth name --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I have that, yes.

19 MS. ROMANO: It says that the search is in progress. So the Rule

20 68 search is still in progress. What happens is that when the search is

21 done under that name, as a name, it comes up with around 2.000 documents.

22 That's what you have. So those are the documents that are remaining to be

23 verified. The entire range of documents that contain that name, so a

24 search needs to be done to see if it contains Rule 68 material or not.

25 And that work will take 27 days to be done if it is done by one person.

Page 636

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. So that in respect of the example you

2 have given, you have identified the number of documents, but the search

3 has not yet been done.

4 MS. ROMANO: The search for Rule 68 material is still in progress.

5 And that's what -- the work will take 27 days by one person. So it

6 goes -- at the end, you have the total estimate, that is 945 working days,

7 a person working days.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: 945. Where is that?

9 MS. ROMANO: It's on the second page. It's at the end. This is

10 the total.


12 MS. ROMANO: And currently our unit has approximately 25 to 30

13 persons, but they work in all cases of the Tribunal. So if they are to

14 work at full-time for this search, it will take approximately two to --

15 excuse me. It will take approximately seven to eight weeks to be

16 completed.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you tell me, Ms. Romano, where you have Rule

18 70, complete.

19 MS. ROMANO: Yes.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: What does that mean?

21 MS. ROMANO: I will take you to that column. In the column that

22 says "status," all the ones that have been done is everything has been

23 completed, all sorts of searches, the general Rule 68 search and Rule 70

24 search.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Including consent?

Page 637

1 MS. ROMANO: No just search.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just the search.

3 MS. ROMANO: The disclosure is why we need the consent. This is

4 just the search of the material that we have in our possession. The ones

5 that we have only Rule 70 complete is just the Rule 70 search has been

6 done. We still have to do the search for the general Rule 68. Only the

7 material -- for instance, if I go to the first Rule 70 complete is the

8 MUP, M-U-P, the search was done only on the materials that are under Rule

9 70. So we have 9.400 materials.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: So the 945, which is the total, relates both

11 to --

12 MS. ROMANO: No, those are the remaining. Those are the ones that

13 are not under Rule 70 material. The Rule 70 search is done already, is

14 included in the report that I gave, in the chart that we gave to you. I

15 understand, Your Honour, it's a little bit complicated. If you have the

16 name -- I'll try to explain again. We have under the name "MUP," we

17 run -- what was done to comply with that line under Rule 70, we run a

18 search under all documents under Rule 70 that contain the word "MUP" and

19 that search has been done and the material that has been identified, a

20 letter has been sent, and we are waiting for the provider, or maybe some

21 of them have already been disclosed if the leave was granted. But it is

22 the remaining documents, it's a remaining area of documents that are not

23 under Rule 70 and that contain the word "MUP," and that work still needs

24 to be done, and that's the one that's contained in the chart.


Page 638

1 Are you finished on that subject?

2 MS. ROMANO: Yes. Only, Your Honour, if it's too difficult to

3 understand, I can still run other examples, and then may be it will be

4 clear. It took me also quite a while to understand.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It's not a matter on which I necessarily

6 need to hear from the Defence at this stage. But if any of the counsel

7 would like to make a comment, then you can do so now.

8 Yes, Mr. Livingston.

9 MR. LIVINGSTON: May I just ask this: Ms. Romano says that it

10 will take, I think something like two months to complete searching all

11 these documents. That seems to be on the basis that the full complement

12 in the Prosecution teamwork on it. Realistically, I wonder if we could be

13 told how many people are going to work on it and therefore realistically

14 how long it's all going to take because it's plainly a matter, as I'm sure

15 Your Honour will appreciate, that affects the preparation of this case and

16 securing a fair trial for these defendants based on all the information

17 that may assist them, because that is the whole point of the Rule 68

18 procedure.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Livingston. Ms. Romano, are you

20 in a position to say how many people are at your disposal to work on this?

21 MS. ROMANO: No, Your Honour. At the moment --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.

23 MS. ROMANO: Sorry. No, Your Honour. At this present moment, I

24 can't speak for the entire office. What we know is currently we have 25

25 to 30 people in unit, and I have to wait to see what is the load of work.

Page 639

1 I know that in total, we will take, if using the entire unit, will take

2 seven to eight weeks.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: But the entire unit is not at your disposal, of

4 course.

5 MS. ROMANO: No, it's not at our disposal unfortunately.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I hear what Mr. Livingston has said, but I

7 think we have to be practical. At the same time, we have to be sensitive

8 to the importance of this exercise for pre-trial preparation. I am

9 satisfied that the Prosecutor is making a good-faith effort in this

10 regard. And what I am going to do is to say that the Prosecutor must make

11 her best efforts to complete disclosure by the time of the presentation of

12 the -- of its pre-trial brief. That is one month after the Appeals

13 Chamber's decision on the Kosovo jurisdiction matter. It's an ongoing

14 exercise; and if necessary, we'll have to review it again in the light of

15 all the circumstances.

16 The next issue I turn to is the reciprocal disclosure under Rule

17 66(B) and 67(C) and my understanding is that the parties have been able to

18 resolve any difficulties that are outstanding. If that is not so, then

19 please say.

20 On agreed and adjudicated facts, the Prosecution had opened

21 negotiations on possible agreed facts, and agreement was reached in late

22 March with the Ojdanic Defence on certain matters. The Prosecution, I

23 understand, asked to receive responses from the other two Defence teams a

24 week or so before the date of filing the pre-trial brief. This was found

25 to be insufficient time to complete the task. But the parties have been

Page 640












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Page 641

1 encouraged to work hard and to agree where possible. I found in

2 circumstances such as this that the best course for the Chamber to take is

3 to set a date, so I'm going to set the 3rd of September as the date for

4 the completion of these negotiations and for a report to the Trial

5 Chamber.

6 Rule 92 bis, this, of course, depends on the Prosecution witness

7 list, and so we'll have to await that. But once that has been done, the

8 parties are expected to make all possible use of Rule 92 bis.

9 The length of trial and the number of witnesses, Ms. Romano, you

10 just submitted a document. Would you like to take us through that.

11 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, in light of your decision of the

12 pre-trial brief to be extended, I would find more appropriate to discuss

13 this by that time. If you want -- this is an estimate based on our

14 submissions that were going to be filed on Friday. But maybe we still --

15 we still will have room to have -- the Defence to be more active in trying

16 to discuss the issues with us. So I just -- or we, the Prosecution,

17 believe that it will be more appropriate to discuss this at a later date.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I still think it would be useful for you to give

19 an indication in the light of the present circumstances. We may have to

20 vary it later on.

21 MS. ROMANO: No problem, Your Honour. I just would like to

22 consider -- the Prosecution would like to consider this is definitely a

23 preliminary estimate --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I understand it will only be preliminary.

25 MS. ROMANO: And we will depend on the Defence cooperation as to

Page 642

1 the continuation of this work. We also seek to reserve our position

2 regarding the final numbers at the end. What we have here is an

3 approximate total number of witnesses will be 140. The number of

4 witnesses we disclosed the statement on the 31st of January, 2003, are

5 119. We have a number of additional witnesses that have been identified

6 by the OTP, and we will be seeking leave to call them. And they are

7 approximately 8. And we also have a number of additional witnesses in

8 process of identifying or at least we know -- we intend to call the

9 evidence on that matter. So we will give notice to the Defence about that

10 in the pre-trial brief. There are approximately 12 witnesses.

11 Then our estimate about live witnesses and Rule 92 bis witnesses

12 are the following: Approximately 61 witnesses live and approximately 60

13 92 bis, and 11 will be experts. They will be experts under 94 bis. These

14 will take us to a total of 220 hours, and will be 55 days. So we have an

15 estimate additional time for additional witnesses, that would be 24 hours,

16 equalling six days. So the total number of hours for the Prosecution case

17 will be 240, and that will be 60 days. So it will be pretty much what we

18 estimated at I believe in the first Status Conference when we said that we

19 are intending to run this trial in three for four months.

20 The exhibits, we have at the present moment, we have a total

21 number of exhibits, approximately 1.700 -- between 1.700 and 1.800

22 exhibits. This is still very preliminary. I emphasise that the times I

23 am talking here, they refer to the -- just for the Prosecution case. It

24 does not include cross-examination, of course.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. It doesn't include cross-examination.

Page 643

1 MS. ROMANO: Does not include the cross-examination, and also does

2 not include the time that it will -- the 92 bis witnesses will take

3 depending on the Defence, if they have to come for cross-examination or

4 not and how long will take the cross-examination, that matter.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: So 55 days should be almost doubled.

6 MS. ROMANO: It will depend on the Defence.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. I understand it's

8 preliminary and provisional, but still useful. It is, of course, a little

9 early for the Defence to be in a position to tell us about the length of

10 their case. But I wonder if, Mr. Livingston, are you in a position to say

11 anything?

12 MR. LIVINGSTON: I'm afraid I'm not in a position to say anything

13 about the length of our possible case. Can I simply say this: That Your

14 Honour's absolutely right that I think all Defence lawyers are using their

15 best endeavours to progress this pre-trial stage as quickly as we can. I

16 think Your Honour should know that I have today handed Ms Romano a letter

17 making certain factual admissions about the indictment which was what the

18 Court has been encouraging. I have to say that they are limited, and

19 there is further work to be done on that. And certainly from my client's

20 point of view, I'd anticipate that further admissions will be forthcoming

21 in due course. But we have made a start, and I hope it will be helpful to

22 the Prosecution and focus attention on the actual issues in the case.

23 Your Honour, may I just mention a couple of other matters. One of

24 them is this: It seemed to me from Your Honour's opening comments that

25 you're reasonably content with the way the pre-trial preparation has been

Page 644

1 proceeding to date. I think I should just sound one note of caution.

2 While we're all doing our best, I think Your Honour is aware that there

3 are a number of outstanding funding issues. And while I understand that

4 Judges will only meddle in such sordid matters as funding with

5 considerable reluctance, they are fundamental to the preparation of the

6 Defence and the speed at which the Defence can respond. Your Honour has

7 already referred to Mr. Visnjic's outstanding motion. I know from talking

8 to Mr. Petrovic today that he also has an outstanding funding matter. And

9 I can tell Your Honour there's no great secret about it that there's going

10 to be one in respect of Mr. Milutinovic as well. And all these matters

11 will affect the speed with which preparation of the Defence can be

12 conducted. I hope Your Honour understands that. I'm not trying to be

13 difficult or impolite with the Court, but it's a realistic fact. And all

14 I can urge on Your Honour is that these matters be resolved as soon as is

15 possible. And I'm sure that the Court will have all goodwill from the

16 Defence insofar as we can to assist in resolving those matters.

17 Your Honour, that was the second point. The third point I hope is

18 a matter that can easily be dealt with. And that is this: We have, I

19 think, all been served with a number of CD-ROMs relating to the Milosevic

20 trial; in other words, they're of the Court hearings, daily Court

21 hearings. Certainly, on my copies, all one has is basically a list of

22 dates, and there's no indication given against those dates as to which

23 witnesses testified on what day. It certainly would be helpful from my

24 point of view, and may be it would assist my learned friends, if somebody,

25 whether it's the Prosecution or whether it's the Registry, could provide

Page 645

1 us, because I imagine it must be in existence, could provide us with a

2 list of which witnesses actually testified on which day in that trial.

3 Certainly as far as the Kosovo part of the trial is concerned because

4 otherwise it makes using these CD-ROMs almost impossible. Because one

5 simply doesn't know where to look if one wants to find the testimony of a

6 particular witness.

7 So I'd be grateful if Your Honour could assist in that capacity.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Livingston. I am gratified to

9 hear of the admissions being made on behalf of your client, and I

10 encourage the other accused to proceed along the same lines to the extent

11 that they find it possible, to make the very best efforts because that

12 will advance the pre-trial work and facilitate the trial itself.

13 The last matter that you mentioned, I think --

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, Mr. Petrovic.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, but I

17 have the impression that it was only Mr. Livingston that answered the

18 questions you put just now so I would like to be given an opportunity to

19 give the position of our Defence team concerning the length of our case

20 and the number of witnesses we intend to call.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead, Mr. Petrovic.

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. At this

23 time, we are unable to give you a specific figure of witnesses that would

24 testify during our case, or to give any specific length of time. However,

25 in view of the speed of the pre-trial proceedings, and here I have in mind

Page 646

1 the pre-trial brief of the Prosecution which will be delivered by the

2 deadline set by you, as well as other documents under Rule 65 ter, I

3 believe that shortly after that, we would be able to give an assessment

4 that would be of some value, both to the Trial Chamber and to the

5 Prosecution. So upon examining these documents, I believe that we would

6 be able to give you our first initial assessment of the length of our

7 case.

8 As far as the second question that you put to the Defence is

9 concerned which pertains to the agreed facts and stipulations, I would

10 like to convince the Trial Chamber that the Defence of Mr. Sainovic treats

11 this issue very seriously and is trying to analyse both the evidence, the

12 indictment itself, in an attempt to establish the facts that the sides

13 could agree upon. So we are undertaking steps in this measure, and as

14 soon as we're able to have something specific, we would inform both the

15 Prosecution and the Trial Chamber. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. Mr. Visnjic.

17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to avail

18 myself of this opportunity to point out an aspect of the pre-trial

19 proceedings that has been observed by our Defence team. Given that we

20 have agreed to reciprocal disclosure with the Prosecution, we have

21 undertaken certain steps in our investigation, and we are encountering

22 certain difficulties that have to do mostly with the cooperation with the

23 government of Serbia and Montenegro as far as the documents and

24 information are concerned. So far, we have exchanged several sets of

25 documents with the Prosecution under Rule 67, which is our obligation.

Page 647

1 However, there are several requests of ours that are pending before the

2 national committee of the government of Serbia and Montenegro. These

3 requests pertain both to certain documents and to a certain type of

4 information that was required by us from the relevant authorities. Right

5 now, it is difficult for me to estimate for you the size of that problem;

6 however, right now what is evident is that we are not receiving timely

7 response to our requests. That, in turn, has impact on our obligations

8 concerning reciprocal disclosure, and I'm afraid that this delay could

9 also jeopardise some other deadlines, especially those deadlines that were

10 set by you today concerning the pre-trial briefs. I would like to take

11 this opportunity to inform you and other members of the Trial Chamber of

12 this problem and to also say that in future, we might approach you to

13 issue a binding order concerning this matter if the authorities in our

14 country fail to respond to our requests.

15 I received informally several replies, one of them was that

16 overburdened with requests from the Prosecution. However our position is

17 that there has to be equality of arms between the two parties, and in that

18 respect, we might have to resort to all measures envisioned under the

19 rules of procedure. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Visnjic. That, of course, is a

21 matter for you to determine in the best interests of your client, whether

22 you need to seek a binding order from the Chamber. And of course, as you

23 said, the principle of equality of arms would be relevant.

24 I just wanted to comment on Mr. Livingston's reference,

25 Ms. Romano, to the CD-ROMs and the lack of complete information so that to

Page 648

1 render it intelligible.

2 MS. ROMANO: If Your Honour give me just a moment.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Senior Legal Officer.

4 [Trial Chamber and Senior Legal Officer confer].

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand that the material is being provided

6 by the Registry. And I further understand that it would be a simple

7 matter for them to provide a list of witnesses so that the information

8 becomes more intelligible. Thank you, Ms. Romano.

9 MS. ROMANO: Yes, that's exactly the same information that I just

10 obtained.


12 Mr. Livingston also made reference to a more fundamental matter,

13 the question of funding. We have received, I believe, one motion in

14 relation to it. And it's being considered by the Chamber. It's an

15 important matter. And the Chamber will deal with any motion that comes to

16 it as quickly as possible. We appreciate the link between funding and the

17 right of the accused to adequate representation, and we'll treat the

18 matter very seriously.

19 MR. LIVINGSTON: Your Honour, can I just say, that it doesn't

20 simply relate, what I was saying, to Mr. Visnjic's motion. As I

21 understand it, and I'm sure Mr. Petrovic will tell me if I'm wrong, there

22 is already an outstanding appeal relating to the Registrar's decision or a

23 decision of the Registrar concerning a contribution towards his legal aid,

24 for want of a better expression, relating to investigative and legal

25 assistance matters. There's also a similar problem in the wings as far as

Page 649

1 my client is concerned. These are matters which fundamentally affect the

2 way the Defence team is organised and how many investigators we can have,

3 how the work is distributed, and ultimately --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: When you say appeal, do you mean appeal in the

5 strict sense? Or is it a review?

6 MR. LIVINGSTON: I think it may be that the strict term is a

7 review, but nonetheless, it's a matter which comes before the Trial

8 Chamber. And I believe that it certainly in respect of Mr. Petrovic's

9 client, that was something that happened some months ago, and it remains

10 unresolved. And what I'm concerned about is that it appears that my

11 client may now be in a similar position, and I would be -- I would hope

12 that months would not go by before his position is resolved as well. But

13 it may be that Mr. Petrovic can help you further about the matter to which

14 I'm referring.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not bringing up

17 this issue before you today, nor do I believe that there is need to do

18 that. But there is a decision of the Registry concerning the amount of

19 the funding and the hours allotted for Prosecutors and legal aid. We

20 asked that this decision be reviewed, and it is now pending before the

21 Registry. So at this moment, I do not think that I need to trouble you

22 with this. But you will also probably remember that you instructed the

23 Registry to look into this.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me stop you there. You say that it is

25 pending before the Registry, the review, if I understand you correctly.

Page 650

1 You've asked for it to be reviewed by the Registry, not by the Trial

2 Chamber.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is our request

4 dating back to last year. I think that it was submitted in July of last

5 year. There was a decision made by the Registry, and we asked the Trial

6 Chamber to review the decision. The Chamber directed the Registry as to

7 what aspects of that decision need to be reviewed and what steps need to

8 be undertaken. As I've said to you, the matter is now pending before the

9 Registry, and the Registry's looking into it right now. So at the present

10 moment, there is nothing regarding that that I would like to trouble you

11 with.

12 We did address you regarding this. You undertook certain steps,

13 and depending on the decision made by the Registry and in accordance with

14 the instructions issued by the Trial Chamber, we shall abide by that

15 decision. I hope that I've clarified this.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, the matter is fully clarified now, yes.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't believe that there are any other issues

19 unless any counsel wishes to raise anything. Prosecutor?

20 MS. ROMANO: I just would like to raise a couple of points, or

21 clarify a couple of points. Your Honour, we're very grateful for the

22 deadlines set today, and we would like to say that we intend to comply to

23 all deadlines imposed by the Pre-Trial Judge as we have been doing this.

24 In the past four months, a great amount of work has been done, and we

25 intend to continue doing that and to comply to all your decisions and

Page 651

1 deadlines.

2 I just would like to clarify that maybe I was not entirely clear.

3 There are no more Rule 70 searches to be done. This has been completed.

4 Any other outstanding searches that are contained in the chart that you

5 have are general Rule 68, not Rule 70.

6 And I just also would like to clarify that the search that you

7 have in hands is the one that contains the extended search criteria, that

8 we did it on the 13th of March, I believe, and we communicate same to the

9 senior legal officer during the 65 ter conference, and also did the

10 Defence.

11 Regarding the Rule 68 disclosure, it's an ongoing process, it's a

12 dynamic process, and we will do our best to complete with our disclosure.

13 It's an evolving process, and as we identify new search terms in order to

14 safeguard the interests of the accused, we are in a position that if we

15 find new search criteria, and we believe this is internal, we will look

16 for searches in this area. So I believe that the word "complete" is a

17 little bit difficult to ascertain in this kind of process.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks for that clarification, Ms. Romano.

19 If there's no other issue, then it is the right of the accused in

20 a Status Conference to bring to the attention of the Chamber any matter

21 relating to the -- relating to the trial or relating to the conditions of

22 detention or any other such matter. So I'm going to start first with

23 Mr. Milutinovic. And you can sit if you wish, in view of your condition,

24 yes.

25 THE ACCUSED: May I sit?

Page 652












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13 English transcripts.













Page 653


2 THE ACCUSED: I don't know how many minutes you are ready to give

3 to me. But I'm very concerned about everything what is going on here in

4 the sense because I read the transcripts of the conference about Rule 65

5 ter, two conferences from the March 26th and May 12th. You know, I see in

6 all those transcripts a huge confusion even between the all

7 participants of that conference, that they sometimes don't understand each

8 other. Later on, they clarify with all those figures about the Rules of

9 the Procedure. And I am worried, what is the role of us as the accused?

10 Are we are some sort of a puppet and have to be, let's say, quiet and to

11 rely on the, let's say, capability of our lawyers or their negligence.

12 I'm not referring to Mr. Livingston or anyone in the room. But I read

13 carefully your lecture in Leiden from 1999. You rightly say that this

14 is -- that this trial and this Tribunal is generous, and I agree

15 completely with that. But the practice, I think, needs to improve some

16 rules. Of course, I, as an indicted person, could not propose anything,

17 but you can do it, and maybe it's impolite from my side to ask you for a

18 private audience to give you some kind of suggestion which would improve a

19 lot and speedness about the whole process.

20 Because I got about 40 files, and I am so confused how to read

21 them. I read them as I got it. But what after that? Because in all

22 those 40 files, I can find maximum ten pages concerning me. Not more than

23 that. So that's one question. The other question is who is, how to say,

24 checking before coming to trial all those experts opinions? You know,

25 when you publish a book or when you publish something in the expert field,

Page 654

1 there is some kind of supervision of that. We are going to waste a lot of

2 time quarrelling here whether some of those, how to say, reports or

3 opinion of the experts, correct or not. It's better that we have that

4 before, not to be questioning only by Defence, which is very weak side for

5 that, or maybe from the Prosecution.

6 I'm referring about some documents which I got, and I see that

7 those gentlemen missed the key points, that some of them are not

8 completely aware about the law existing in Yugoslavia which they would

9 like to analyse. So any, let's say, specialist outside of them would say

10 then that on the beginning and save the time here on the trials. In

11 connection with is the expert opinions of all the doctors. I didn't like

12 to make -- is it possible to make a closed session in this part, about the

13 medical reports?

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but before you do that, let me tell you that

15 I have been fairly liberal in allowing you to continue along those lines

16 because the purpose of the opportunity which is given to you now is not

17 for you to engage in discussions of matters that properly relate to the --

18 to the trial process itself. We're dealing here with pre-trial matters,

19 and an opportunity is given to you to raise any matter relating to the

20 conditions of detention or your health. But legal issues are issues which

21 you can bring to the attention of the Trial Chamber through your counsel,

22 who is very competent. So you should utilise that process, and don't use

23 this process now to launch into legal discussions.

24 But we will go into a private session to hear you about the

25 medical reports.

Page 655

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can I hear from Mr. Sainovic.

21 THE ACCUSED SAINOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have nothing

22 to say. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Sainovic.

24 Mr. Ojdanic.

25 THE ACCUSED OJdANIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no

Page 656

1 questions either.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. The only remaining matter

3 is to set a date for the next Status Conference. It is required to be

4 held on or before the 1st of October. And I'll set Wednesday, the 24th of

5 September as the date for the next Status Conference. The hearing is

6 adjourned.

7 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned

8 at 3.35, p.m.