Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1799

1 Thursday, 17 August 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Peraj.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp will now conclude his re-examination of

9 you.

10 Mr. Stamp.

11 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Re-examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Peraj. The last area I want to cull with you

16 in respect to the MUP is something you said in cross-examination when you

17 said that you saw when houses near the bus station were being torched and

18 the regular police were there and stood by. Do you recall saying that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When did this occur?

21 A. In the beginning of 1999. I can't remember the exact date.

22 Q. Can you recall the month?

23 A. I think it was March.

24 Q. Could it have been before the 25th of March, 1999, or was it

25 after?

Page 1800

1 A. As far as I remember, it was March. That's what I remember.

2 Q. Well, can you recall if it was before or after the NATO campaign

3 started?

4 A. It was before the NATO campaign. It was, in fact, during those

5 days that the NATO air-strike started, but the NATO air-strikes started

6 later. It was after these houses were burned.

7 Q. Now, you said that the regular police were present and stood by.

8 What do you mean by regular police? Which armed police organisation were

9 they attached to?

10 A. According to the uniforms they were wearing and their outer

11 appearance, they were regular police of the MUP.

12 Q. And you said when -- you said when you tried to intervene to stop

13 this, the commander told you to mind your own business and prevented you

14 from stopping the persons burning down the people's houses?

15 A. When I went to the guards that were there, close to me was my

16 commander, Milos Djosan, and I told him that we have to intervene because

17 the fire is very close. He said to mind my own business. This is nothing

18 to do with us.

19 Q. Oh, it was Milos Djosan who told you that?

20 A. My commander, not the commander of the police.

21 Q. Very well. Let's move on to the -- to the VJ. You were asked

22 about the time when General Ojdanic was appointed, and you said it was in

23 1997 and he succeeded General Perisic. Can I just refer briefly to a part

24 of your last statement and ask you a question that arises, and this is

25 from paragraph 100.

Page 1801

1 "I listened to an address by Perisic during a meeting held at the

2 end of May/beginning of June 1998 in the military club, in the military

3 barracks in Pristina."

4 At that meeting in June 1998, or May 1998, was General Perisic

5 still the commander -- still the Chief of Staff of the VJ?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So General Ojdanic would have succeeded him subsequent to that,

8 naturally?

9 A. Of course.

10 Q. And in respect to the VJ, you said that before 1998 they did not

11 destroy whole villages. And you said further in 1998 the village of Kavez

12 [phoen] was destroyed and other villages. Can you recall the other

13 villages that were destroyed?

14 A. The village of Kavez, I don't think that name exists or maybe you

15 pronounced it wrong. I don't know which village you mean.

16 Q. Very well. Just tell us which villages, if you can recall, were

17 destroyed by the VJ in 1998.

18 A. They shelled several villages in the vicinity of Komorane, where

19 they said that there were members of the KLA there. They had their bases,

20 so KLA bases were in those villages.

21 Q. Thank you. Finally, you were asked about an informal meeting, and

22 this was the informal meeting in which Stojanovic -- right, Stojanovic

23 said houses should be burned and at least 100 persons should -- should be

24 killed. And you were asked -- or it was suggested that this discussion

25 involved a group of local people. What I want to ask you is this: Can

Page 1802

1 you remember who among the group said that we needed authorisation for

2 that?

3 A. After Stojanovic was speaking like this to Micunovic and

4 Kovacevic, he said: An operation has to be undertaken to burn the houses

5 to ashes and a hundred -- at least a hundred heads should go. I explained

6 the reason yesterday why I thought they said that.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: The question, Mr. Peraj, is: Who uttered these

8 words: At least a hundred heads should go?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stojanovic.


11 Q. And after that somebody, according to you, said that: We need

12 authorisation for that. Who said that?

13 A. Kovacevic.

14 Q. And then someone said: I will arrange that with Pavkovic. Who

15 said that?

16 A. Stojanovic.

17 Q. You said you went to the Pastriku Hotel under the command of -- or

18 at --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You said the paramilitaries who were there told you to go and

21 speak to their boss. Did they tell you who their boss was?

22 A. No.

23 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, may it please, that is the

24 re-examination for the Prosecution.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, what is the paragraph that deals with

Page 1803

1 the hundred heads must go?

2 MR. STAMP: It's paragraph 59.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. I mean, my note of yesterday, obviously

4 we'll need to review this in particular, but the person, according to the

5 witness yesterday, who would -- said he would contact Pavkovic was

6 Kovacevic. That -- is that your recollection?

7 MR. STAMP: My recollection was that he was asked a question in

8 which people were lumped together and it was a compound question, so I did

9 not know who said what. And there was a group of people that was asked

10 about. So I just thought I would just make it clearer.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, having said that I also noted that answer in

12 regard to paragraph 62, so obviously we'll need to review the transcript

13 on that.

14 Now, Mr. Stamp - and this is addressed to everyone - the various

15 documents which have been referred to at some stage in the evidence and

16 have been used as part of the evidence are admitted. Those that haven't

17 been translated, subject, obviously, to translation and therefore marked

18 for identification until that happens, when they're translated it's for

19 the party presenting the document to inform the Trial Chamber about the

20 translation in a written filing so that we can take account of the

21 position and deal with any further matters that require to be specifically

22 confirmed so far as admission is concerned.

23 Two documents were referred to but actually were not used,

24 although you'll see mention of them in the transcript, and that's 6D34

25 and 35 in the course of Mr. Lukic's cross-examination. So they do not

Page 1804

1 appear to me to have formed any part of the procedure -- the proceedings.

2 And one document I want to ask you about, Mr. Stamp. 3D60 is the

3 notes that were taken of the telephone conversation or the telephone

4 interview with Mr. Peraj. Now, that was used only in cross-examination by

5 Mr. Visnjic. Is your position that it's part of the process so far as the

6 Defence want it to be, or have you a position that we should take account

7 of all that's in that document? Because I don't think it's been tendered

8 as part of the Prosecution case.

9 MR. STAMP: No. I think the Defence wanted to use it for

10 cross-examination purposes and the witness was not -- the witness accepted

11 what was put to him.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. So we confine our consideration of it to the

13 purpose for which it was used in the course of the evidence?

14 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: In the event that you actually wish to clarify that

21 matter you raised, it's transcript -- yesterday's transcript page 58,

22 beginning at line 14. He said: "It was the person who was with Kovacevic

23 who said we need authorisation for that."

24 And the other fellow said: "I'll arrange with Pavkovic." That's

25 the testimony from yesterday.

Page 1805

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. STAMP: May I just make one suggestion, with your permission.

3 Having regard to what you said yesterday about the Defence or parties

4 getting translations for only the relevant parts of long documents, which

5 is a completely reasonable position, can I ask, however, though, that the

6 front page which might give a general description of what the document is

7 about be translated and the last page with the signature, the person who

8 signed it, just at least the signature block and what is said about that

9 commandant or position wrote also be included in the translation, plus the

10 relevant part?

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Stamp. I mean, that's a very

12 reasonable comment, but I don't think it's possible to legislate for it.

13 Mr. Stamp's given an example of when it would be helpful to have parts of

14 the front and last page of a document also translated, albeit only a small

15 part of it is necessary for the case. But I think as a matter of

16 exercising a wise discretion when it comes to deciding what you invite the

17 translators to actually translate bearing that comment in mind.

18 Well, Mr. Peraj, that completes your evidence. Thank you for

19 coming to the Tribunal again to give it. You are now free to leave.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I wish you all the

21 best, all the people here in this room.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Peraj.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Parties are naturally anxious to have as much

25 clarification about the sitting arrangements of the Bench as possible, and

Page 1806

1 I can give some guidance on that.

2 The sitting programme for August and September can be seen in the

3 Tribunal web site and should by now be brought up-to-date to reflect the

4 consideration of particular arrangements that had to be made. In the

5 immediate future, it is unlikely that this case will proceed on the 29th

6 of August because the court is required for an appeal hearing. If, of

7 course, that's cancelled for any reason then the situation will change.

8 That hearing was initially also scheduled for the 30th of August, but

9 that's been changed. It's no longer scheduled for the 30th, so we will be

10 sitting then.

11 We shall not be sitting on the first Monday of September, which is

12 I think the 4th, and we shall not be sitting on Monday, the 23rd of

13 October, not on the 24th which is a public holiday, but in addition to

14 that we will not be sitting on Monday, the 23rd, with a view to giving as

15 long a weekend as possible in these circumstances. And we shall not be

16 sitting the first week of October. That will be one of the discretionary

17 recess weeks that the Chamber can take.

18 I appreciate there's some concern about the frequency with which

19 the trial will be sitting on both Friday afternoons and Monday mornings,

20 thus curtailing the weekend. There's been a modification of that to some

21 extent, and you'll see the Fridays on which we're sitting in the morning

22 reflected in the web site. Basically this Trial Chamber will sit on a

23 Friday morning if possible, but the demands of other trials prevent that

24 frequently. So unfortunately our primary slot is Friday afternoon, but I

25 am as interested and indeed the other Judges are as interested as you are

Page 1807

1 in moving that to Friday morning. So we'll keep our eye on the

2 opportunities arising for that.

3 So that's as much of an indication as I can give you at the moment

4 of what the future holds so far as sitting arrangements are concerned.

5 That takes me, Mr. Hannis, to your next witness.

6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, before we call in the next witness I'd

7 like to make a brief oral application.

8 The Defence has filed a response to our second 92 bis motion

9 concerning a protected witness from an international humanitarian

10 organisation. We would like to ask leave to file a reply to that motion

11 and ask if we could have until a week from Friday, that is the 25th of

12 August, in which to file that reply. They have agreed for now that he

13 could come without cross-examination, but they have an objection to a

14 portion of some of the materials attached to his statement.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it that the timing you suggest fits in with

16 when you envisage that evidence being presented to the Court? It's -- I

17 mean, context is important here. If -- I appreciate it's -- you're

18 endeavouring not to bring the witness, but it's quite nice to have the

19 material in the context of an appropriate stage. And you're satisfied

20 that this is evidence for much later in the case?

21 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, it is evidence that would come in

22 much later in the case, but the issues regarding its admissibility or

23 whether or not it should come in sort of relate to some of the issues that

24 relate to As Seen, As Told and Under Orders, et cetera.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, okay. The second point I have for you is the

Page 1808

1 reply that you've -- you have -- or the response you have from the

2 Defence, is that a joint response?

3 MR. HANNIS: Yes, it is.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: And who is the lead counsel in that; do you know?

5 MR. HANNIS: I think it's Ojdanic, I'm not sure.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan is being fingered.

7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: It was prepared jointly, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Well, you tend to be the spokesman when

9 another one can't be identified. Are you happy that there should be a

10 further reply from the Prosecution?

11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have no problem with that, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: And the time-scale is gives you no problem?

13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's fine.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. That application will be granted.

15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you, Mr. O'Sullivan.

16 Your Honour, Ms. Carter will call our next witness.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter.

18 MS. CARTER: May it please the Court, we now call the Prosecution

19 witness, Xhevahire Rrahmani.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Now just give me a moment before you go for the

21 next witness.

22 Does any part of your examination of this witness require a

23 private session?

24 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. It is conceivable, though, that

Page 1809

1 cross-examination may, depends on the issues arising. Do you accept that?

2 MS. CARTER: It is quite possible, Your Honour. There is a

3 protected witness that is -- that could come in issue.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I was thinking also of the nature of part of

5 the allegation.

6 MS. CARTER: Yes.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: And the conduct described. I flag that up for

8 Defence counsel, that there are two issues there.

9 Mr. Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, maybe it's because I've come late, but

11 I'm not aware of a protected witness that may be in issue, and so I could

12 inadvertently get into it without being aware. So maybe that should be

13 made -- I should know about that, I think.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, information on this can be exchanged

15 informally. It doesn't need to be dealt with -- I take it that you can

16 relay a message to Mr. Ackerman --

17 MS. CARTER: Certainly, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: -- to deal with that. And as far as the nature of

19 the conduct is concerned, then it may not be an issue in the case. I

20 don't know. But if it is, then I expect you to alert me to your intention

21 to cross-examine the witness on that.

22 Very well. Let's have the witness, please.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Could we have the earphones, please, first of all,

25 so that ...

Page 1810

1 Ms. Rrahmani, would you now make the solemn declaration by reading

2 out loud the document which is placed in front of you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

6 We have before us a copy of a statement that's been given to us

7 setting out your account of various things, but it's part of the procedure

8 we follow here that witnesses generally come to court to be asked further

9 questions about these events and perhaps about other matters. And that's

10 what we're about to hear now. So a number of people will ask you

11 questions, some of them you might find are difficult, in which case you

12 can explain that to us. Or if you don't know the answer, you should tell

13 us. And some of them may involve a challenge to your evidence. You

14 should be clear before you start that it's part of the system under which

15 this Tribunal operates that questions challenging the evidence of a

16 witness are often asked. So please don't be surprised when that happens.

17 And if we think that anyone is asking you a question which is improper,

18 then we will intervene to prevent that happening.

19 The first person to ask you questions will be on behalf of the

20 Prosecutor, and that's Ms. Carter.

21 Ms. Carter.

22 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour. For ease of the witness as

23 well as the Court, I prepared a hard copy of her statement and I ask that

24 that be delivered to the witness. And while that's taking place, we would

25 request that the 92 bis package be placed upon the screen. That's e-court

Page 1811

1 number P02239.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: And is the hard copy you've presented to her in

3 Albanian?

4 MS. CARTER: Yes, it is, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 MS. CARTER: Ms. Rrahmani --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a second. We've still to get the -- when you

8 say "on the screen," you mean on e-court?

9 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. That's fine, thanks.

11 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, this 92 bis package is, in fact, in

12 Albanian. The linked documents to it include an English as well as a

13 B/C/S translation.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, well, we now have the English on our screen,

15 I think. So please continue.

16 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Examination by Ms. Carter:

20 Q. Mrs. Rrahmani, will you please introduce yourself to the Court.

21 A. Xhevahire Rrahmani.

22 Q. Ms. Rrahmani, you have a hard copy of your statement in front of

23 you. Have you had an opportunity to look over that statement previously?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is the document that you have in front of you the same statement

Page 1812

1 that you believe you've reviewed before?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Based upon your review, do you find the statement to be accurate?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I would request at this time that the

6 statement be entered into evidence.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, as you know, the practice we've been

8 following is that in the absence of objection that will automatically

9 happen, and therefore this is tendered by you and will be part of the

10 proceedings.

11 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 In addition, this witness has been called pursuant to 92 bis (D).

13 We're also requesting the tendering of e-court number P02240, which is the

14 transcript from the Milosevic trial.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I regret I overlooked that because it wasn't

16 given to me as part of the set of documents, but I'm sure we'll get a copy

17 later on in the course of the evidence, so carry on.

18 MS. CARTER: Certainly, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: The same applies so far as the transcript is

20 concerned.


22 Q. Mrs. Rrahmani, I'm now going to ask you questions in regards to

23 your statement to both expand as well as to clarify certain aspects, and

24 the first topics that we will cover is going to be your deportation or

25 displacement throughout Kosovo. We will later deal with the incident that

Page 1813

1 took place in the barn in Cirez.

2 I would like to direct you first to approximately March 24th,

3 1999. Where were you residing at that time?

4 A. Before the 24th of March, on the 22nd of February I left my home

5 and I went to live in Vushtrri at Naim Muzaci's house.

6 Q. Why did you leave to live in Naim Muzaci's house?

7 A. Because the army was in the mountains of Taraxh and they were

8 shelling and our children were scared.

9 Q. When you say "the army," can you describe who was shelling those

10 villages?

11 A. The Serbian army.

12 Q. Were you able to see these forces or is this something that you

13 heard about?

14 A. We heard from other people, but we heard the shots also, and there

15 were bullets that came up to my house in my courtyard.

16 Q. At what time was -- were the bullets in your courtyard?

17 A. It was at 2.00 p.m. While two days after that my husband and my

18 brother-in-law, Bajram, they were told by the army to leave the house

19 because otherwise they would be killed.

20 Q. What was the date of this incident?

21 A. We left on the 22nd. The other one was on the 24th of February.

22 Q. At any time did you return back to your village of Bukos in

23 Vucitrn?

24 A. Yes. We returned three or four days later, and I went myself to

25 the courtyard -- to the gates of my house, as we call them, and the army

Page 1814

1 did not allow me to get into my own house. I saw the Serbian army, a

2 tractor, and another tractor with a trailer loading everything that I had

3 in my house, a television, everything, my furniture, everything.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Lukic, you stood up during that answer.

5 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I just want our learned friend from

6 the other side to point out in the statement where we can find this part.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I doubt if it's there. I assume it's not.

8 MS. CARTER: Exactly, Your Honour. It is not in the statement.

9 The statement begins approximately March 26th. These events occur prior

10 to that date.

11 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Thank you. We just wanted to have this on the

12 record.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but you should have a statement of the

14 witness that does cover that period, do you not?

15 MR. LUKIC: No, we don't, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Why has a statement of these events not been

17 disclosed to the Defence?

18 MS. CARTER: There is no statement -- this was first learned in

19 proofing on Monday.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: And why didn't you disclose the proofing notes?

21 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, at the time no proofing notes were

22 created. As this witness has been taken under 92 bis (D) and as this

23 portion of the evidence will be taken live, no additional submissions were

24 made.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's disappointing. If you obtain

Page 1815

1 additional information in the form of a statement when you're preparing a

2 witness to give evidence, I would have thought it was common courtesy,

3 apart from your obligation under the general practice of the Tribunal, to

4 disclose the content of that additional evidence to the Defence so that

5 they could be prepared for it. Do you not agree?

6 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, as this is taken live --

7 as live testimony, the witness should be able to expand upon the evidence

8 that she's given. It's fairly clear from the statement itself that it

9 indicates certain activities took place within her family and within her

10 home that caused her to leave her village. We're just clarifying that

11 portion which begins in paragraph 2.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: This is leaving another village before she ever

13 gets to the village that the statement begins at. It's events in a

14 completely different location from those that are already in the

15 statement.

16 Now, your argument that because it's viva voce live evidence in

17 court I don't follow. That would suggest that if the Prosecution could

18 carry out its investigations with a photographic memory, they would never

19 need to disclose anything. Now, that can't possibly be right. In fact,

20 it just sounds preposterous to me. So do you or do you not concede that

21 this should have been disclosed?

22 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour, it should have been disclosed

23 previously.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Now. Well, you're very fortunate that nobody's

25 taking issue -- well, Mr. Ackerman.

Page 1816

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I happen to be the person first

2 up for cross-examination, and I think that the proofing notes should be

3 disclosed to me before I am required to proceed with that.

4 This may be the beginning of a number of things that are in the

5 proofing notes that we don't know about. I don't know how much more this

6 is going to happen, but basically her entire testimony since she started

7 deals with matters that are not in her statement and apparently are

8 contained in proofing notes.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well -- yes, Mr. O'Sullivan.

10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Well, I didn't rise while you were putting your

11 questions to the Prosecution, but if this is an attempt -- if it's an

12 attempt or oversight, it does nonetheless circumvent the disclosure

13 obligation under Rule 66.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: That seems clear. The -- the Trial Chamber

15 actually contemplated in making an order when we issued our brief order

16 about procedure at the beginning of the trial including something about

17 this, but we thought that things were progressing well between the parties

18 so far as disclosure was concerned and didn't think it was necessary to do

19 so. And indeed, the Defence's attitude recently has been that the

20 Prosecution has been very cooperative in this case, and therefore -- even

21 when they feel things have gone wrong, they don't seem to be anxious to

22 press the matter to sanction but simply to have it recorded, just in case

23 there's an accumulation of these events.

24 But this is something that we should probably say a little more

25 about at this stage to avoid any repetition, so please give the Bench a

Page 1817

1 moment to deliberate on this.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we think it right to make an order here and

4 now on the Prosecution requiring them to disclose to the Defence

5 immediately any additional information they obtain from witnesses who are

6 to be led in the trial. And that's such an all-encompassing requirement

7 that it covers obviously both incriminatory evidence and exculpatory

8 evidence. So anything material that you learn in the course of proofing

9 must be disclosed forthwith to the Defence.

10 Now, in this instance all the Defence require of you is that prior

11 to the cross-examination the additional information is disclosed, and I

12 hope you can make arrangements for that while your own examination is

13 continuing.

14 MS. CARTER: And respectfully, Your Honour, the Prosecution

15 submits this became a confusion over what is deemed to be new and

16 different and what is deemed to be clarification of a prior statement.

17 This witness in approximately a sentence and a half will get to

18 paragraph 2 beginning the statement. It was not the intention of the

19 Prosecution to go outside the scope of the statement or to lead to any

20 sort of surprise on Defence counsel.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we've got evidence of shelling by the VJ in

22 the mountains which you then interpreted as shelling of villages, although

23 the witness didn't say that. It's pretty significant stuff which relates

24 to an area which is not currently -- or at least a place which is not

25 currently covered I think --

Page 1818

1 MS. CARTER: Certainly.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: -- in the statement. So I doubt if there's any

3 question but that this material should have been disclosed. However, we

4 are relieved to know that we can proceed very quickly to material of which

5 the Defence have notice.

6 So please continue.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just want to make the observation

8 with regard to the statement just made by my learned friend from Texas

9 that this is a great deal more than just a clarification. Now, I'm

10 willing to accept that it was an oversight that it was not delivered to

11 us, but it's -- that's not an explanation, that is just a clarification.

12 Because it goes into a brand new matter that's not in the statement. It's

13 not clarifying anything.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think all you're doing is repeating what

15 I've said, Mr. Ackerman.

16 So please continue, Ms. Carter.

17 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Ms. Rrahmani, I'd like to focus you beginning on March 24th,

19 1999. Where were you residing on that date?

20 A. In Vushtrri at my son-in-law Naim Muzaci.

21 Q. And at what point did you leave that location?

22 A. On the 26th of March.

23 Q. Where did you go on March 26th, 1999?

24 A. We went to the village of Kozica, to my husband's uncle, Xhemajl

25 Xhema. He is from the municipality of Skenderaj.

Page 1819

1 Q. Why did you go to Kozica?

2 A. Because they were shelling in Vushtrri and we were scared about

3 our children's safety. So that's why we went to Kozica. We could not go

4 to our house because there were -- the army was there, so we went to

5 Kozica.

6 Q. During your travelling between these two villages, did you

7 encounter any sort of Serbian military or police unit?

8 A. No. They were in the village of Taraxh but we did not go that

9 way.

10 Q. At some point in time soldiers entered a house and there were

11 approximately 30 soldiers. Where was this house?

12 A. In the village of Kozica.

13 Q. And in the village of Kozica, can you please describe the soldiers

14 that you saw.

15 A. In the village Cirez there were there some soldiers, but after

16 three days they came to Kozica. In the beginning they shelled, but then

17 they came there with trucks and other vehicles. There were people who

18 were killed. Ten people were killed, and three people were injured.

19 Q. When you say "they," who were you referring to?

20 A. I -- where we were, there were many women and children in the

21 courtyard of Rrahim's house. And the shells fell on the courtyard, and

22 ten people were killed and three were injured.

23 Q. Who was doing the shelling that resulted in these injuries?

24 A. The Serbian army shelled from Cirez to the village of Kozica, in

25 the courtyard of Rrahim. I don't know his surname.

Page 1820

1 Q. Did you have an opportunity to see any of these Serbian soldiers?

2 A. When the infantry came there, yes.

3 Q. What did the infantry look like?

4 A. They had green uniforms.

5 Q. These uniforms, were they solid? Did they have a pattern? Do you

6 have any other detail about the green uniforms?

7 A. Green uniforms. They had ribbon in the upper arm, but I had my

8 children there and I saw the people who were killed and injured. So I

9 wasn't, you know, paying too much attention whether they -- what they were

10 wearing. So I just saw that the uniform was green, and they had a red

11 ribbon in the upper arm.

12 Q. I understand there was quite a bit of confusion at that time, but

13 are you able to tell us if they were solid green uniforms or camouflage

14 green uniforms or some other pattern?

15 A. As far as I remember, they were just green. It was regular army,

16 and I'm not very sure about this. That was the first time I saw them.

17 Q. After this incident took place where these soldiers gathered

18 within the courtyard, what did you do next?

19 A. We were told to sit down. Nobody should stand. We sat down.

20 They came very close to us, and the people who were injured, they were

21 trying to dress their wounds. They injured them and they now were

22 dressing their wounds.

23 We left the dead people where they were and we moved away from

24 them because we were scared. There was a young man among us, 28, 30 years

25 old. He was I think mentally disabled, and he was shouting and crying.

Page 1821

1 He was eating a boiled egg, I think. And because he was shouting and

2 crying, they shot him immediately, right there and then, in the Kozica

3 village, in Rrahim's house.

4 Q. When the infantry entered this village, had there previously been

5 any sort of fighting or any sort of armed combat within the village?

6 A. No, but they were shooting towards the Kozica village, it's in

7 Cicavica. In the village of Kozica, they shelled several houses. So all

8 the women with the children -- because we were all scared and feared for

9 our lives, we went to Rrahim's courtyard. There were 300 of us more or

10 less, and after the shelling stopped the infantry left.

11 After they killed that young man, they took petrol or something

12 and burnt the houses. They just left one -- what we call oda, which is a

13 guestroom, so they burned his whole house just -- they left -- they spared

14 this oda, the guestroom. They left that room alone because they wanted to

15 get all our valuables, whatever we had, rings and earrings, necklaces, and

16 all our IDs, everything.

17 Q. The individuals who were doing the burning as well as the

18 shooting, were these the same infantrymen that you had referred to

19 previously?

20 A. Yes, they were infantry.

21 Q. At some point in time did you leave Kozica village and go some

22 place else?

23 A. Yes. After they searched us, they told us to go to Skenderaj

24 because fighting -- there's fighting here. The infantry has to go to

25 Cicavica, so you need to go to a place where there's no fighting.

Page 1822

1 Q. Did you see fighting or hear fighting at that time?

2 A. No. We were told to leave for Skenderaj immediately. They were

3 following us all the time, watching us whether we were going to Skenderaj

4 or not.

5 Q. The persons who were watching you, are they the same infantrymen

6 or are they additional soldiers or police?

7 A. The same soldiers.

8 Q. How long did they follow you?

9 A. Well, two hours. It was two hours, because it's 8 kilometres from

10 Kozica to Skenderaj, so -- I'm telling you approximately because I don't

11 know for sure.

12 Q. When they were following you, what were they doing?

13 A. They were on trucks, and they were laughing at us. They were

14 saying something to us, but I don't know the language so I could not tell

15 you what they were saying.

16 Q. Once you arrived in Skenderaj, what did you find?

17 A. Before entering Skenderaj, there was a police check-point, Serbian

18 police check-point. They did not allow us to get into Skenderaj. That

19 night we stayed in a meadow which was called Lah Tushila [phoen] service.

20 It's before you get into Skenderaj itself. Myself, my children, the whole

21 group slept on that meadow, and the children were suffering because they

22 were starving and they did not -- they were very thirsty.

23 Q. Let me back up for just a moment. You indicated --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that horrifies me, that comment, Ms. Carter,

25 "back up." We're still on page 1 of this statement. What was the

Page 1823

1 purpose of having a statement in the case of this witness if we're just

2 going to explore it all in even greater detail in oral examination?

3 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, at this point we're attempting to

4 describe for the Court who specifically was engaged during the time of

5 this woman's deportation through Kosovo. What is not clear from the

6 statement is specifically which forces, what the uniforms looked like. As

7 it's become a great issue, given the fact it is both military,

8 politicians, as well as the police that are involved in this case, we want

9 the Court to be very clear who was active.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you mean it's become a great issue? It has

11 been an issue since 1999.

12 MS. CARTER: Certainly, Your Honour. And this witness is just

13 attempting to describe for the Court who was engaged.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Why is this not explored in detail when the

15 statements are taken for the purpose of presentation in court?

16 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, as before, the statement was taken in

17 the year 2000. I cannot speak to you about what was taking place at that

18 time.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: I imagine that's right. I, yet again, pose the

20 question which will never be answered, I suspect, as to why these

21 statements aren't updated long before we get to the trial stage so that we

22 can get on with the job we're required to do in the context of evidence

23 that we can quickly read and allow to be challenged in court. As it is,

24 this -- spending this time on the detail of these events with this type of

25 statement in front of us is really not making progress at all in the

Page 1824

1 trial. It's very disappointing that we have to do this.


3 Q. Mrs. Rrahmani, when you were at the check-point --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there something substantive to be said,

5 Mr. Ackerman?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I think so, Your Honour.

7 I think this has turned into -- I mean, you have made some

8 observation about it yourself. But if you look at the Rule 92 bis itself,

9 it provides for evidence to be offered in lieu of testimony. And what's

10 going on here is a complete viva voce presentation of this witness's

11 testimony. It's not a 92 bis proceeding. We were informed that this was

12 a 92 bis witness and that her testimony on direct would be her 92 bis

13 statement, and we were given her 92 bis statement in that regard and our

14 examinations, cross-examinations were prepared with that in mind.

15 We come into court with no notice at all, no indication at all, no

16 proofing notes at all, nothing, that this witness was turned into a

17 viva voce witness. And now incredible amounts of testimony are coming in

18 that have nothing to do with her statement, not contained in her

19 statement, or anything else.

20 I think it's extraordinarily unfair. It violates the rule

21 of 92 bis. If they want to have a 92 bis witness, then that's what they

22 have. If they want to have a viva voce witness, then that's what they

23 have. But they can't have -- can't say they're having one and then have

24 the other. And it's now become a matter where I wouldn't -- I'd hesitate

25 to try to do a cross-examination with so much new material going into the

Page 1825

1 transcript without having time to go through that transcript and compare

2 it with what I've already prepared.

3 So I think it's unfair, and I think it should not happen in the

4 future.

5 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, Mr. Ackerman has received

6 a notification from the Office of the Prosecution that indicated this

7 witness would be anticipated to have one hour live testimony. In

8 addition, this Court has already previously addressed the 92 bis

9 witnesses, to have clarification made as live testimony here in court. It

10 is unfortunate that Mr. Ackerman was not able to be present during those

11 conversations, but this witness is being handled within the rulings of the

12 Court previously.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you tell me that this will last one hour, do

14 you?

15 MS. CARTER: That is my anticipation, Your Honour, yes.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: And is that still your anticipation?

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, subtracting time for discussions as well

19 as objections, yes, we still anticipate that the Prosecution's portion of

20 this witness will take one hour.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, well, as Mr. Ackerman also knows, Rule 92 bis

22 provides that the evidence may be given in writing under that Rule in

23 whole or in part, and while that, generally speaking, envisages a clearly

24 divided testimony in which it's easy to identify the written and the oral,

25 this sort of thing is not excluded by 92 bis so far as clarification is

Page 1826

1 necessary. So what we shall do is monitor the progress of this

2 examination, bearing in mind the submissions that have been made. And we

3 shall decide at the end of the examination-in-chief, if we reach that,

4 whether we consider this as an appropriate way for future witnesses to be

5 led.

6 So please continue.

7 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Ma'am, you indicated that there was a police check-point that

9 stopped you from going on to Skenderaj. Can you please describe for us

10 who was manning the check-point?

11 A. There was a policeman who came out and told us not to get in

12 Skenderaj. We saw tanks. There was a room inside, 4 by 4 metres I think,

13 but only -- I don't know whether there were policemen inside there, but

14 this policeman came out, and he said that we could not enter Skenderaj.

15 Q. Can you please describe the policeman.

16 A. I can't remember. I'm sorry.

17 Q. Can you speak at all to his uniform, such as colour, pattern, or

18 any other demarcations?

19 A. No, I don't remember.

20 Q. How did you know it was a policeman as opposed to some other

21 person, be it citizen -- civilian or military?

22 A. Because he looked like a policeman.

23 Q. What about him looked like a policeman?

24 A. Because the soldiers we had seen before had a different uniform,

25 and the women were saying that this is not a soldier, it's a policeman.

Page 1827

1 Q. When you were in the field with your family, were there any

2 persons, be it military or police, who were near you?

3 A. No. Well, they stayed there all night, but they did not come

4 close to us.

5 Q. Who stayed there all night?

6 A. The Serbian army, but they did not come close to us. And they did

7 not say anything to us. We stayed there in the field, the children were

8 sleeping, some women were even breast-feeding. We spent the whole night

9 there.

10 Q. At some point you left the field. Why did you leave?

11 A. Because the same policeman said: Go away from here. Go to

12 Gllogoc.

13 Q. When you went to Gllogoc, were there any police or military along

14 that line?

15 A. On the way, yes, they were on trucks and tanks, but they did not

16 say anything to us. Close to Gllogoc, they said that the KLA had killed

17 someone. They took Hashim Zani [phoen] from the village of Polac,

18 municipality of Skenderaj. I think his body was found a year ago, but I

19 don't know where. But it was there that they took him, this person.

20 Q. I need you to back up for just a moment. You indicated that when

21 you were on the road you saw people on tractors and other vehicles. Who

22 did you see?

23 A. No, I said "trucks." It was the Serbian army going back and

24 forth --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: She said --

Page 1828

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They were not on tractors. And

2 you could see only women and children. There were no men, because if they

3 found men there, they would kill them immediately. Even young boys, 13

4 years old, they would kill them. I told you about that 28-year-old man

5 who was mentally disabled, and they killed him because he was shouting.


7 Q. How long did you stay in Glogovac?

8 A. Ten days. I stayed in Gllogoc ten days.

9 Q. During your time in Gllogoc, were you left in peace or did you

10 have other involvement with the military or police?

11 A. No. During those ten days we didn't have any problems. We could

12 go out to get bread, but we didn't dare to go out to get anything else.

13 But I have to say they did not come into the house. But because we did

14 not have any bread anymore and we did not have any money left to buy

15 bread, so we tried to go to Kozica to get some food for the children

16 especially.

17 Q. When you went into Kozica, did you see any forces within that

18 village?

19 A. No, not in Kozica, but the houses were totally burned. But in the

20 village Cirez they were still there.

21 Q. Who did you see in the village of Cirez?

22 A. The soldiers, the same soldiers that shelled us and killed us, the

23 same.

24 Q. These soldiers, are these the same infantrymen that you indicated

25 had solid green uniforms?

Page 1829

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Approximately when did you see the shelling continuing in Cirez?

3 A. That day we were at the house of Xhemajl, but before 7.00 we went

4 to Daka's house because it was raining. For three nights we stayed there.

5 During the day, we went to a valley close to Tresnjos [phoen] village,

6 municipality of Skenderaj. But that day because it was raining we went to

7 the house of Xhafer Daka close to Cicavica, because we didn't want to be

8 close to the soldiers, to fall into their hands, because we were afraid

9 what they might do to us.

10 Q. Approximately what date was this?

11 A. I don't know the date. I'm sorry. It was in April,

12 approximately.

13 Q. At some point in time you indicate in your statement that you were

14 taken into the village of Cirez. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes. The infantry came. We were in Daka's house. They -- they

16 shot a young man called Fatlum. They were shooting all the time but we

17 did not leave the house. They were shooting outside. This young boy,

18 Fatlum, was sent to us to tell us to leave or come to -- to go to the

19 soldiers.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the witness did not

21 say they shot a young man, but they sent a young boy, a young man.


23 Q. When you're saying "they," are you still referring to these same

24 solid green infantry uniforms, or are you indicating another group?

25 A. No, I think it was soldiers with uniforms, dark brown and black.

Page 1830

1 Q. In Kozica, what were the uniforms that you saw?

2 A. There was a large group in plain green uniforms, others in dark

3 brown and black uniforms. Those who took us from Daka's house had a

4 different uniform. Those who stayed with us in Abedin's house, they had

5 green uniforms.

6 Q. Can you describe the uniforms of the people who took you from

7 Kozica to Cirez?

8 A. It was green. Three of them accompanied us to the Cirez village.

9 We stayed there for three days.

10 Q. When you say "green," are you referring to solid green, camouflage

11 green, or some other pattern?

12 A. Those who came to get us from Daka's house, they had camouflage

13 uniforms, while the others, there were about 30 of them, their uniforms

14 were plain green.

15 Q. Did you see any interaction between the people in solid green

16 uniforms and the people in green camouflage uniforms?

17 A. Yes, when they handed us over they discussed things with each

18 other. I think they had discussed things before. They were expecting us

19 because it was something like handing over people and they had agreed

20 before, beforehand.

21 Q. Are you talking about the soldiers who were talking together while

22 they were in Kozica, or are you talking about soldiers who were speaking

23 amongst each other in Cirez?

24 A. The soldiers who took us from Kozica to Cirez, I think they had

25 agreed beforehand with the soldiers who were in the school in Cirez

Page 1831

1 because when we got there, the soldiers came out of the school and they

2 talked amongst each other. So the soldiers who accompanied us returned to

3 Kozica and left us in the hands of the ones in Cirez.

4 Q. To be clear, within your statement, are you telling us that the

5 green camouflage persons who took you into Cirez spoke with the

6 individuals who had black and brown uniforms?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. When you were left with the people who were in the black and brown

9 uniforms, how long did you stay with them?

10 A. They took us to this barn when the soldiers left.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, where is it the witness says that the soldiers

12 at Cirez had black and brown uniforms?

13 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, that would be on the English page 4,

14 approximately paragraph --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no, in the -- in the transcript. You say

16 that: Are you telling us that the green camouflaged persons who took you

17 into Cirez spoke with the individuals who had black and brown uniforms.

18 Now, where do I see that evidence?

19 MS. CARTER: At approximately -- approximately page 31, and she

20 begins to speak about the black and brown uniforms on line 5.


22 MS. CARTER: Yes. 5 and 6 she begins to discuss the brown and

23 black uniforms.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but these are the people who were -- who came

25 after the boy Fatlum LNU arrived. And they're described in the statement

Page 1832

1 as having green camouflage uniforms, some dark green and some light green,

2 and in her oral evidence I've understood her to change hat to say dark

3 brown and black.

4 MS. CARTER: I will certainly clarify with the witness, Your

5 Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, is that not what that part says? Just go to

7 line 5. There was a large group in plain green uniforms and others in

8 brown and black. Those who took us from Daka's house had different

9 uniforms. Those who stayed with us in Abedin's house, they had different

10 uniforms.

11 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, it's my understanding from the testimony

12 what she was indicating is that there were solid green uniforms within the

13 village. The green camouflage uniforms are who picked her up and took her

14 to Cirez. Once she gets to Cirez --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Please, please don't tell the witness all that you

16 expect to her to tell you yet again. I'm just trying to clarify the

17 meaning of what she's already said.

18 MS. CARTER: Certainly, Your Honour. And on page 31 --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't want your summary of it.

20 MS. CARTER: And on page 31 beginning at line 9 is when it

21 indicates -- I said question her: Can you describe the uniforms of the

22 people who took you from Kozica to Cirez? And that point she indicates:

23 It was green, three of them accompanied us to Cirez.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's true.

Page 1833

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, my question related to the witnesses who took

2 her there.

3 Anyway, carry on. I'm delighted that you think that this is

4 clarifying the position.


6 Q. Mrs. Rrahmani, what uniforms were the people wearing who took you

7 from Kozica to Cirez?

8 A. Those who took us from Kozica to Cirez were wearing green

9 uniforms. First, those who came to pick us up from Daka's home were

10 wearing brown to black uniforms, whereas the other ones that I mentioned

11 who brought us to Cirez were wearing green uniforms.

12 Q. Where were the people -- what village were the people who wore the

13 black and brown uniforms in?

14 A. I don't know where they came from, because they were not deployed

15 in Kozhice.

16 Q. Did you meet the people in brown and black uniforms in Kozica or

17 in Cirez?

18 A. I saw those people for the first time in Kozhice that day when

19 they took us from Daka's home, and then after that we saw them in Cirez

20 village.

21 Q. Did the black and brown people arrive in Kozica and stay there

22 with you the entire time, or did they arrive in Kozica and you later

23 encountered them?

24 A. Only when they came to take us, and then we didn't see them

25 anymore in Kozhice. We saw only those people with green uniforms.

Page 1834

1 Q. In Kozhice, did you see any conversation taking place with the

2 people in green camouflage uniforms and those in black and brown

3 camouflage uniforms?

4 A. They put us into that home, and I don't know what they discussed

5 among themselves.

6 Q. Did you see any interaction whatsoever between the individuals in

7 green camouflage uniforms and those in black and brown camouflage

8 uniforms?

9 A. Yes, we saw them. We stayed there for three days. They came that

10 day, one soldier came, with a woman called Mirdita. She spoke the

11 language and she told us that we were supposed to go to Cirez. We were

12 two groups there. On the second floor were those from Klina, Skenderaj

13 municipality, and those from Kozhice. On the first level was I and my

14 kids.

15 Q. Ma'am, I'm going to stop you right here and I just need you to be

16 very clear. Once you get to Cirez, what type of soldiers did you see

17 there?

18 A. The colour was brown and black. This is how I remember that.

19 Because to tell you the truth, I didn't dare look at them to see what they

20 were wearing. We just wanted to get away from them; that was our main

21 concern.

22 Q. How long were you with - "you" collectively, meaning you and the

23 other individuals who were brought to Cirez - how long were you with the

24 men in brown and black uniforms?

25 A. Some two hours or even more I would say, until they checked all of

Page 1835

1 us, took away our girls and our mothers and whom we never saw alive.

2 Q. We will cover that in a moment, but I need you to back up and just

3 indicate after the two hours in Cirez with the men in the black and brown

4 uniforms, where did you go next?

5 A. They kept us in that barn and told us to go again to Durmishi's

6 house, where we were before, and they told us to leave the barn one by one

7 and never to turn our heads back; otherwise, they said: We are going to

8 shoot you. So we didn't dare look behind, didn't dare ask them: What

9 happened to my mother, or to those girls that they took away, eight people

10 that they took away from us.

11 Q. On your way back to Kozica village, did you go by yourself or were

12 there other soldiers or police involved?

13 A. No, we went there ourselves, because this is what they told us.

14 Q. Okay. When you arrived --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter.

16 MS. CARTER: Yes.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Where in the statement is this movement from Kozica

18 to Cirez, this particular one referred to?

19 MS. CARTER: Paragraph 17, the English page 4.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I don't have paragraph numbers.

21 MS. CARTER: Oh, I apologise, Your Honour. That would be on the

22 fourth page of the English statement, the sixth full paragraph.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that not much later than what we're talking

24 about just now?

25 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour.

Page 1836

1 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, we're back now to what I've numbered --

2 I've written my own numbers in, it's paragraph 12, it's the last paragraph

3 on page 3. We're past that stage, are we?

4 MS. CARTER: We have now -- the -- the statement goes from

5 paragraph -- or I'm sorry, page 4, where it indicates she goes into Cirez.

6 You wait until page 7 before you see them come back from Cirez. As I'm

7 trying to attempt to elicit the information with regards to who was on the

8 transportation lines, I have skipped over the portion where she is in the

9 barn and attempting to just give you the first portion. I will then come

10 back to deal with the barn.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: But have we missed -- you've asked no questions

12 about the first five paragraphs on page 4.

13 MS. CARTER: That is correct, Your Honour. I've -- the statement

14 appeared to be clear.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I've wrongly got the impression that there

16 was a relationship between soldiers coming for them when Fatlum LNU warned

17 them and then going to Cirez. I thought the two were directly related

18 from the way in which this evidence was being led. But you tell me that

19 there's no relationship.

20 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, when the young boy speaks with them,

21 that is between two houses within the same village. It is not a transport

22 between two separate villages.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. And then it says: "Immediately after that

24 we went towards Abedin Durmishi's house.

25 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour, and that's again in Kozica village.

Page 1837

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you've missed all -- that's all happened

2 before they're collected and taken to Cirez?

3 MS. CARTER: Correct, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.


6 Q. Ms. Rrahmani --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: No, we're about to have a break just now then.

8 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

10 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll adjourn now and we'll resume at 10 past 4.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter.

14 MS. CARTER: [Microphone not activated].

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MS. CARTER: Before we begin with the witness, I wanted to make

17 the Court aware that the proofing notes have been typed up and have

18 already been e-mailed to Defence counsel for their review.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's very helpful. But just for the

20 avoidance of any doubt you know it's not necessarily the notes that have

21 to be disclosed, you know that it's the material contained in them that is

22 material obtained from the witness that has to be disclosed.

23 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: And I think that's what the order made clear at the

25 time.

Page 1838

1 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Anyway, carry on.

3 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I appreciate the fact that it's been e-mailed to

7 me, there's almost nothing I can do with that because I can't print it

8 here in the courtroom, and I can't follow the trial and read the e-mail at

9 the same time.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Is must be possible to print in the courtroom, is

11 it not?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think so. I haven't -- if it is, I haven't

13 learned that in my minimal training.

14 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, we were unable to print

15 off the printer that's between on our bench as well. However, we will

16 provide hard copies as quickly as we can.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. If you e-mail it then to Mr. Sabbah, he

18 will print it for you, and that will let the Prosecution concentrate on

19 their examination, so let's continue.

20 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Ms. Rrahmani, you indicated that when you arrived back into Kozica

22 you saw military. Is that correct?

23 A. Return from where?

24 Q. When you returned from Cirez back to Kozica, did you see military

25 in Kozica?

Page 1839

1 A. Yes. Before we went to the house of Durmishi, I saw the soldiers

2 who accompanied us to Cirez.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The soldier, correction.


5 Q. In addition to the soldier who you saw that escorted you to Cirez,

6 did you see other soldiers?

7 A. Yes. There were in the houses there. But I recognised the one

8 who escorted us to Cirez. And I told the people in my group: This is the

9 soldier that accompanied us to Cirez. And then he saw us saying something

10 about him and then he went inside.

11 Q. Ma'am, how long were you in Kozica at that time?

12 A. When we returned from Cirez to Kozhice, before they sent us to

13 Kozhice for three days. Then after Cirez for three, four hours.

14 Q. After the three or four hours in Kozica, where did you go next?

15 A. To the house of Durmishi, to that group that remained there on the

16 second floor. We stayed for three, four hours on the first floor, and

17 then again they sent us back to Cirez.

18 Q. When you went back to Cirez the second time, did you go

19 unaccompanied or did soldiers accompany you?

20 A. They accompanied us.

21 Q. Can you please describe the uniforms of the people who accompanied

22 you back to Cirez?

23 A. I'm saying -- I'm using the word "yellow," but in fact I mean

24 green, but we say "yellow" for green.

25 Q. So the men in the green uniforms took you back to Cirez. Is that

Page 1840

1 right?

2 A. Yes, two soldiers sent us back to Cirez, but they didn't stay

3 close to us.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Ms. Carter, which paragraph are we on now?

5 MS. CARTER: That would be the English page 7, B/C/S page 8,

6 Albanian page 10, and the paragraph would be the second from the bottom.

7 May I continue, Your Honour?

8 JUDGE BONOMY: You may, yeah.

9 MS. CARTER: Thank you.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: But I have to say it was not at all clear to me we

11 had advanced as far through the statement. The presentation of this

12 evidence is not achieving any effect on me. I'm at a loss, generally

13 speaking, as to where we've been -- which parts we've been dealing with in

14 the statement as we go through the oral evidence.

15 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, for the clarification of the Court,

16 we've passed from page 4 to page 7. Page 4 through 7 is what involves the

17 incident in the barn. As the Court clearly appeared that they were

18 concerned about her testifying to that in open session, I have foregone

19 that information at this time.

20 Q. Ma'am, when you returned back to the village of Cirez and you said

21 two soldiers accompanied you, were they in solid green uniforms or in

22 camouflage green uniforms?

23 A. It was solid green.

24 Q. And when you were in the village of Cirez, how long did you stay

25 the second time?

Page 1841

1 A. For the second time we stayed three weeks.

2 Q. While you were in the village of Cirez for those three weeks, were

3 soldiers present in the village?

4 A. Yes, there were soldiers.

5 Q. While the soldiers were in the village, did they at any time take

6 a statement from you or have you show them the barn in which your tragedy

7 occurred?

8 A. Yes. Before we went to the house, they placed us -- I told them

9 that this is the barn where they took away the mother and the girls. And

10 they told me: Go ahead, go ahead, we know it.

11 Q. At any time did you see any sort of follow-up investigation by the

12 soldiers who were in Cirez regarding your mother?

13 A. No.

14 Q. After the three weeks in Cirez, where did you go next?

15 A. They told us that: You will go to Gllogoc. We will send you to

16 Macedonia. There is no place for you here.

17 Q. When you were on the route to Glogovac, did anybody go with you?

18 A. There were many people there, but nobody accompanied us. We saw

19 trucks and lorries driving past the street, but no one specifically

20 escorted us.

21 Q. Did you feel you had a choice whether you were to leave or not?

22 A. No one maltreated us. They just told us to go to Gllogoc.

23 [Prosecution counsel confer]

24 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, at this time I respectfully pass the

25 witness.

Page 1842

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Ms. Carter.

2 Mr. Ackerman -- sorry, just before you start, there is one thing I

3 think we should clarify.

4 The evidence of this witness insofar as it is in writing,

5 Ms. Carter, is tendered under which rule?

6 MS. CARTER: [Microphone not activated].

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that deals with the transcript. What about

8 the statement that we have?

9 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, it is our reading of 92 bis (D) that as

10 this statement was entered within the transcript that it becomes part and

11 parcel of the transcript.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: And how is that dealt with in the transcript? Can

13 you take me to the page in the transcript where it's dealt with?

14 MS. CARTER: [Microphone not activated].

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, that would be on page 4582 of the

17 transcript, specifically line 12.

18 And, Your Honour, the registrar gave the exhibit exhibit

19 number 141 on page 4583 at lines 15 and 16 in the Milosevic case.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: So when you tendered exhibit P2239 and called it

21 the 92 bis package, that didn't include the transcript, because you gave

22 it a different number?

23 MS. CARTER: That is correct, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: So how do these tie together when you say the

25 statement includes -- is included in the transcript?

Page 1843

1 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, as this witness was submitted under

2 92 bis (D) applying the transcript was a portion of her 92 bis package.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: And now it's no longer part of the package. Is

4 that the situation?

5 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, also due to the e-court system, we were

6 not able to take both of these documents and put them together under one

7 e-court number, thus they were given two separate numbers, but they are

8 intended to be taken together as she is a 92 bis (D) witness. And

9 specifically we cite to the jurisprudence that indicates exhibits attached

10 to written statements or transcripts form an inseparable and indispensable

11 part of the testimony. That was found in the Prosecution versus Naletilic

12 and Martinovic cases, specifically 9834 PT.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, these two exhibits are accepted as part of

14 the record in this case, but exactly under what provision will be

15 determined when the Trial Chamber issues an order on various outstanding

16 issues in relation to the admissibility of evidence, so that there's no

17 doubt about the basis on which they are part of the record. It is

18 rather -- I'm slightly confused by the reference to a package and then the

19 transcript, but I follow what you're saying about what is generally

20 regarded as included within a transcript.

21 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, respectfully, the 92 bis package, what

22 is intended by that term is that it is the attestation as well as the

23 original signed statement by the witness. As the witness does not sign

24 off on the transcript, it's not considered part of the 92 bis package.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's a different description from the one

Page 1844

1 you earlier gave me, but that I can understand. But you understand you've

2 given me two different descriptions of that, but I accept the latter one.

3 You did already tell me that the transcript was part of the package.

4 Anyway, we shall resolve it fairly soon and -- as far as the

5 technicalities are concerned, and meanwhile we can concentrate on the

6 merits.

7 Mr. Ackerman.

8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I could, just for the record, if they

9 are tendering this exhibit pursuant to 92 bis (D), my reading of that rule

10 states that it cannot go towards acts and conduct of the accused, and

11 therefore I would object based upon the case law we cited in our motion

12 relating to As Seen, As Told, the appeals court decision, stating that

13 acts and conduct of the accused includes alleged acts and conduct of

14 alleged subordinate units, and so I don't think that that's an appropriate

15 use of Rule 92 bis (D), if that's in fact what they are utilising to bring

16 this in.

17 Thank you.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you must have taken this point if you

19 intended to use it, in response to the 92 bis application, and we must

20 have dealt with it already if you took the point.

21 MR. IVETIC: For some reason I don't recall that they sought to

22 introduce this under 92 bis (D); I thought it was under another

23 provision of 92 bis. But I could be mistaken. Perhaps I should bring

24 that up outside of court if I review my pleadings.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter, what do you have to say on this?

Page 1845

1 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, this was tendered under Rule 92 bis (D)

2 and a ruling has already taken place on that issue.

3 MR. IVETIC: I apologise then, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, because of the way this has developed

6 today I may do some skipping around that I otherwise would not have done,

7 and I hope for your indulgence in -- as I try to stumble through this

8 process today.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

10 Q. Ms. Rrahmani, good afternoon. My name is John Ackerman. I

11 represent General Pavkovic in this case, and I have several questions that

12 I'd like to ask you.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. As a -- as a very preliminary matter, you will find that we will

15 get through this process much more easily if you will listen very

16 carefully to the question I ask you and only answer that question and not

17 go beyond the question that I ask you. Will you try to do that, please?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. I'd appreciate that, and I think we all would.

20 The first thing I want to ask you about is after you came here to

21 The Hague, sometime within the last few days, you've had some meetings

22 with representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor, haven't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And who are the representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor

25 that you met with to discuss this case and your testimony?

Page 1846

1 A. I don't know the names of them.

2 Q. Did you meet with the lawyer who's been asking you questions

3 today?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you don't know her name?

6 A. No. I forgot it. She told me her name.

7 Q. Did you meet with any investigators?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. At the same time you met with Ms. Carter, the Prosecutor?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you all meet together in a room and did this entire process

12 occur within that one time in a room?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you and Ms. Carter and an investigator were there. Was there

15 anyone else there?

16 A. There was a lady also.

17 Q. And who was taking notes?

18 A. The lady that has been asking me questions.

19 Q. She was writing down the things you were telling her?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did she ask you why the things you were telling her were so

22 different from the statement you had made earlier?

23 A. No. I only told her things which I have gone through and

24 experienced myself.

25 Q. But she didn't ask you why you were making changes in the

Page 1847

1 statements you had made earlier with the things you were telling her. Is

2 that correct?

3 A. What have I changed?

4 Q. We'll get into that in a little while and I'll show you what

5 you've changed; it's quite a bit, I think, although I haven't had time to

6 go through it in detail.

7 Let me ask you this: Before you came here, did you have occasion

8 to meet with any people who discussed the testimony you would give here

9 with you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And who would those people have been?

12 A. The people I told you about. Because my testimony is the same

13 that I gave initially.

14 Q. Well, the people -- my question was not understood by you and

15 that's my fault, not yours. Before you came to The Hague, before you came

16 here, did you meet with people who you discussed your testimony with?

17 A. No, no. This is what I'm saying. After I came here, not before.

18 Q. Did you meet with any other people of your nationality, any other

19 Kosovo Albanians, to discuss your testimony before you came here?

20 A. No. No, I didn't tell anyone my testimony, no one.

21 Q. I want to start by asking you about the 24th of March, 1999. That

22 was the day the NATO bombing started, wasn't it?

23 A. Yes, on the 26th.

24 Q. And on the 26th of March, you were in your home in Bukos, is it,

25 Bukos, with your husband and your children?

Page 1848

1 A. No. From Vushtrri we passed through Bukos but didn't go into our

2 homes. We went to Kozhice village.

3 Q. Well, that's one of the places where what you told us today is

4 different from your statement. In your statement in the second paragraph

5 you told us that you lived in the village of Bukos. In the second

6 paragraph you said to us: "Two days after the NATO bombs started last

7 year, I left my home, my home, with my husband and my children and also my

8 brother," and you name some other people. And you went to the village of

9 Kozica. You said you did that on the 26th. Now today you're telling us

10 something different. So that's one of the places where it's different,

11 isn't it?

12 A. No. On the 22nd of February we left our home. We went to visit

13 it afterwards, but they did not allow us to enter home.

14 Q. Well, what was you meant then in your statement when you

15 said: "Two days after the NATO bombs started ... I left my home with my

16 husband," what home were you talking about?

17 A. Yes. I said that we went to our home, but we didn't stay there.

18 On the 26th, as I say, we returned from Vushtrri to my home and we left

19 from my home to Kozhice, but we didn't stay at home. They didn't let us

20 enter the home.

21 Q. Yes. My point is --

22 A. And you know very well.

23 Q. My point is you didn't say that in your statement; you said that

24 for the first time today. You've added that. And you've either made it

25 up or it's something you've remembered and I don't know which.

Page 1849

1 A. I'm telling you, I didn't add anything. I'm telling you how

2 things were. We didn't dare enter the home. We went up to the yard.

3 From Vushtrri we came there on the 26th, but we didn't dare stay there.

4 And from my home we left for Kozhice. How can I say something else?

5 Q. How far --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, there is a third possibility, which I

7 think you're going to have to bear in mind here, and that is that the

8 statement was not terribly well recorded at the time it was first taken.

9 You've given two possibilities, but I think there are more.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Are you referring to the possibility that the

11 statement was just unartfully done?


13 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that of course can happen. I've seen it

14 before. But we're given these statements and we're given a 92 bis

15 statement where the witness swears that everything in it is true. And

16 when that happens, when we get the 92 bis statement saying I swear

17 everything in there is true, then I think we can take it as -- not just

18 for granted but take it as proof that what the witness is saying in there

19 is what the witness intended to say. So I think it's no longer a

20 statement that is unartfully done, I think it's virtual testimony, and

21 that's why it comes in under 92 bis. So I think that's not a possibility

22 in this case, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: And you would say that that was especially so where

24 the witness has already given evidence before the Tribunal a number of

25 years ago.

Page 1850

1 MR. ACKERMAN: And adopted the statement then, too, and didn't

2 tell the Milosevic Trial Chamber all these new things that have come in

3 today.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: What a mess.

5 Anyway, carry on.


7 Q. You told us today that -- let me do it this way. If one were to

8 read your statement: "Two days after the NATO bombs started ... I left my

9 home with my husband," one could conclude that it was because of the NATO

10 bombing that you left your home. That would be a logical conclusion,

11 wouldn't it?

12 A. No, we didn't leave because of NATO bombs but because of the

13 shelling by the Serb forces of Vushtrri. And people got killed. That was

14 a reason why, not because of NATO strikes. And I think you know this very

15 well.

16 Q. No, I don't know it very well because I wasn't there, but you

17 were. And it's your information that we're trying to get, not mine.

18 Now, in -- on a -- on 2nd of February, 1999, what village did you

19 leave then? Was that -- was that your home, Bukos, was it Bukos you left

20 on February 2nd?

21 A. On the 22nd.

22 Q. Well, I'm holding the proofing notes that were given me. It says

23 on 2nd of February you, your children, and your sister left the village,

24 I assume that's Bukos, and that the 2 is a mistake; it should be 22.

25 Correct?

Page 1851

1 A. Correct. It should be 22.

2 Q. And what you told the Prosecutor's office on Monday when you were

3 being asked about these things was that you left because there was

4 shooting in the area that you could hear. Correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And you told the Prosecutor that you were aware that there was

7 military training going on in the neighbourhood at that time, didn't you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the Prosecutor didn't ask you about that and you didn't tell

10 us that when you started your testimony today, did you?

11 A. When you ask me, I will tell you.

12 Q. Well, you left the impression with this Trial Chamber, and I

13 believe -- I suggest to you you intended to, that that shooting was

14 against your village and against you when in fact it was a military

15 exercise and you just heard the shots. And that's what happened, wasn't

16 it?

17 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I have to object to this as being

18 argumentive. The question was never asked. This witness could not have

19 given an impression to this Chamber that a training exercise was taking

20 place when she was never asked about any sort of training exercise.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, if you --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on, Mr. Ackerman.

23 MS. CARTER: And to suggest that she intended to mislead this

24 Court is wholly inappropriate.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, my recollection is that the witness said

Page 1852

1 that: "There were bullets right up to the courtyard of my house."

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Different -- different situation, I think, Your

3 Honour.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it, Mr. --

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I believe so.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, yeah. All right. Well, did the witness give

7 evidence that could be interpreted the way in which you suggest?

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, if you will read the testimony the

9 witness gave to the questions that were asked by the Prosecutor --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: You need to give me a reference and I'll go back to

11 it.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: It's impossible for me to give you a reference

13 because -- you'll know in a minute why I'm saying that.

14 If you look at the testimony the witness gave, it was largely

15 unresponsive to the questions. There would be a very brief answer to the

16 question and then a four- or five- or six-line just statement about

17 something else. So she was trying to give information beyond what she was

18 being asked and she was doing so rather frequently. So to suggest that

19 she didn't mention this because she wasn't asked is a bit disingenuous, I

20 suggest.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's a matter for a later stage. What I

22 want to know at the moment is whether your characterisation of this

23 particular piece of her evidence is accurate.

24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I can assist my colleague. At the

25 transcript page 14, they're talking about the -- at line 20 through 25 the

Page 1853

1 Prosecutor and the witness are talking about the 22nd of February, and the

2 insinuation there is that there was shelling in the mountains of Taraxh

3 and the children were scared. "When you can say 'the army,' can you

4 describe who was shelling those villages?"

5 So I believe that there was definitely evidence led and inference

6 made that the actions on that date involved shelling of villages.

7 I thank you.

8 MS. CARTER: And Your Honour --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Ackerman, does your question relate to

10 the 22nd of February?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, it does, Your Honour.


13 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, again, for clarification

14 of the record, if counsel would then refer to page 15 following this

15 entire train of thought it indicates question on line 8 -- or excuse me,

16 on line 7: "At what time was -- were the bullets in your courtyard?"

17 Line 8: "It was 2.00 p.m. while two days after my husband and my

18 brother-in-law, Bajram, were told by the army to leave the house because

19 otherwise they will be killed."

20 It's very clear what -- that she was referring to a specific

21 instance in time. A date as not provided -- well, actually, a date was

22 provided later in regards to the 22nd.

23 Again, we initiate -- or excuse me. We renew our objection that

24 to indicate that this witness was somehow being misleading is wholly

25 inappropriate. She gave the evidence very clearly about what took place

Page 1854

1 on the 22nd.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, the description -- the passage to

3 which Mr. Ivetic has drawn attention is exactly the same one as I

4 mentioned which you've told me related to a different event. I'm not

5 satisfied that the evidence has been characterised correctly in the

6 question you've asked, and therefore you'll have to approach this matter

7 in a different way.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I have a further objection, Your Honour, and

9 that's this: The -- the responsibilities of a Prosecutor are not just to

10 seek a conviction but to do justice. And if we had not been given these

11 proofing notes, you would have never heard that she said that the shooting

12 that she heard in her area on that day was a result of military training,

13 not an attack on her village.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, I'm not in the business of trying to

15 act as a boxing referee between two parties who want to have the last

16 word. I've made my ruling, please proceed.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. When you left your village, your home on February 22nd, I think

19 it's your testimony today that you went to Vucitrn. Am I right about

20 that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And how far is it from Bukos to Vucitrn?

23 A. Some three kilometres, I think. I can't be precise.

24 Q. Could it be less than that? Is it likely that it's less than

25 that?

Page 1855

1 A. It could. I don't know.

2 Q. Well, isn't it the case that -- that all of these villages you've

3 talked about, Vucitrn, Bukos, Kozica, Cirez, all of these villages are all

4 within two kilometres of each other, aren't they? They're in an area -- a

5 two-kilometre area. They're all right next to each other.

6 A. No. From Bukos to Vushtrri is a bit farther. For the others I

7 don't know.

8 Q. They're very close, though, aren't they? It's not like you were

9 going all over the country.

10 A. No, they're not close. There is, I think, more than -- over 10

11 kilometres to Vushtrri from Cirez.

12 Q. Well, if I knew more about the system here, I probably could bring

13 up a map and have you look at it. I think it will probably show that it's

14 close, but I don't know.

15 In your conversations with the Prosecution, you told the

16 Prosecutor that many Serbs lived in our village. Would that be the

17 village of Bukos?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you told the Prosecutor that two Serbs died a few days prior

20 to the NATO bombing. Now, when you say "two Serbs died," what did they

21 die of?

22 A. I heard it on the television. I wasn't really interested

23 personally in what happened to them.

24 Q. Well, you didn't hear that they died of natural causes. You heard

25 that they were killed, didn't you?

Page 1856

1 A. We heard that they died from the television. I don't know what

2 they died of.

3 Q. Why -- if they just died of old age, why was it relevant to put

4 that in your statement? You put it in there because they were killed and

5 you later explain why that's significant, and we'll get to that. But you

6 know that they didn't just die of old age. You know that they were

7 killed, don't you?

8 A. I was just interested in my family and my children. I don't know

9 what other -- what happened to other people. I can't tell you.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mrs. Rrahmani, many more than two people die every

11 day in Kosovo. The fact that two people die is of no consequence. This

12 is mentioned in your statement clearly because it is of some significance

13 to the case. And Mr. Ackerman is only rightly asking you to tell him your

14 full knowledge of this event. So please tell him what you know about the

15 death of these two Serbs.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We heard about it from the

17 television that they'd been killed. But I don't know exactly what

18 happened. I can't tell you.


20 Q. Well, I think you'll recall that I'd asked you three times.

21 They'd been killed, hasn't they, and you said you didn't know. Now when

22 the Judge intervenes you all of a sudden say, yes, they were killed. Why

23 does that happen? You're here under oath, you know.

24 A. I'm just telling you I heard about it on television. I don't know

25 personally.

Page 1857

1 Q. I didn't even ask you if you knew personally -- I'm sorry.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mrs. Rrahmani, can you tell me on which television

3 you learned of this?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. I've forgotten.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what are the possibilities?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've forgotten. I don't know.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what television stations at that time were

8 you able to watch?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. It was the men who

10 watched television, and they told us what was going on around, in the

11 village and elsewhere, in Bukos and elsewhere.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.


15 Q. Ms. Rrahmani, I want to remind you of something. When you walked

16 into this courtroom today before you started your testimony you said to

17 this Chamber, I believe, these words: "I solemnly declare that I will

18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

19 Do you remember saying that?

20 A. Yes, and I'm just telling you the truth.

21 Q. Well, I suggest to you you're not. You just told the Judge when

22 he asked you about what television station -- let me finish - what

23 television station you saw this on that it really wasn't you who saw it,

24 the men watched the television and you were told. But on line -- at

25 page 56, line 2 of the transcript, your testimony is: "I heard it on

Page 1858

1 television."

2 Now, when you say: "I heard it on television," you're telling us

3 you heard it on television, and that now you're telling us was not true

4 and not the truth and not the oath you took before this Chamber. Explain

5 that.

6 A. We heard about it, but the -- we heard about it from the

7 television, and it was the men who told us that it was in Bukos because we

8 didn't know that. That was the way it was.

9 Q. When you say: "We heard about it on the television," you're not

10 including you, are you?

11 A. I was -- I heard about it, but I don't know the names of the

12 people there, their first names or their last names. The men know.

13 But --

14 Q. You're really not answering my questions, Ms. Rrahmani --

15 A. It's not that I'm not trying to tell you the truth --

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and you're not answering

17 properly.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on. There's an objection being taken.

19 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 I would object to this as being argumentive. This witness has

21 been very clear. She said repeatedly her husband and the other men heard

22 this on TV; they told the women. This is becoming a debate about

23 semantics and is wholly argumentative. And also the questions being posed

24 to this witness are multifarious. We would ask very clear and distinct

25 questions be asked of this witness so that she might answer them.

Page 1859

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Give me an example of what you describe as a

2 multifarious question.

3 MS. CARTER: Page 58, starting at line 1: "Well, I suggest to you

4 you're not. You just told the Judge when he asked you about the

5 television station -- let me finish - what television you saw this on ...

6 It really wasn't me who saw it, the men watched the television ... You

7 were told" --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel is requested to slow down.

9 MS. CARTER: Certainly, Your Honour.

10 Within that sentence, he is attempting to take this witness first

11 through a transcript that she can't read. He is bringing in multiple

12 aspects of her testimony. This witness is attempting to answer his

13 questions to the best of her ability. When she says she doesn't know,

14 that is not an acceptable answer. When she does try to explain, if she

15 doesn't explain in the proper semantics, that is not considered an answer

16 by this counsel. So I would urge the Court to find this to be

17 argumentative.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: The questions in my opinion are entirely focussed.

19 The point is a justified one to challenge because the witness has given

20 two clearly contradictory accounts and she should have the opportunity to

21 clarify that. I repel your objection.

22 Please carry on, Mr. Ackerman.


24 Q. I want to move beyond this. I think it's been exhausted.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: I love this e-court system, Your Honour, it just

Page 1860

1 told me that my computer's been locked.

2 All right. It's back now. Thank you.

3 Q. This same paragraph that I was talking about from your -- your

4 meetings with the Prosecutor where you talked about two Serbs dying a few

5 days prior to the NATO bombing, you told the Prosecutor that prior to the

6 NATO bombing one of the Serbian neighbours said - and you heard that one

7 of the Serbian neighbours said that to be fair to you - that if the KLA

8 attacks us, everyone in the village will get killed. So there was a

9 concern, was there not, that because of what had happened in that village

10 that the KLA might attack the village.

11 A. Yes, that's what they said. We -- the Serbs were killed. We

12 didn't know what was going on.

13 Q. And so when you told this Chamber a few moments ago that on

14 26th March, 1999 you left your village because you were afraid for your

15 family, you and your family's safety, what you were afraid of was an

16 attack from the KLA, wasn't it, not from anything Serbs were doing?

17 A. No. We never -- we were never afraid of the KLA. They came and

18 they -- they removed us from our houses. We were never afraid of the KLA.

19 Q. So when you told the Prosecutor that you were told that if the KLA

20 attacked everyone in the village would get killed, that didn't -- that

21 didn't cause you any fear, that everyone in the village would get killed

22 if the KLA came and attacked? You weren't afraid of that? Is that what

23 you're telling us now?

24 A. We were afraid of the Serbs, that's why we left and went away.

25 Not from the KLA, because in Bukos village there were no KLA presence.

Page 1861

1 Q. There had been KLA there before, hadn't there?

2 A. No, no. I didn't see them. I didn't hear anything about that.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: That comment that's been recorded is clearly open

4 to a different interpretation.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: When you say: "You heard" -- this is the problem.

7 It wasn't the notes I expected to be disclosed to you, it was the

8 information that was relevant from the notes. But if the KLA attacks

9 everyone in the village will get killed, that's equally open to the

10 interpretation that it's a threat, and that's what the witness is trying

11 to say to you.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: What do you mean that it's a threat? I'm sorry.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: If the KLA attack the Serbs in the village, then

14 there will be retaliation.


16 JUDGE BONOMY: Everyone will be killed.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: I agree, Your Honour, it's open to that

18 interpretation, correct.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's what the witness is trying to say to

20 you.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Perhaps.

22 Q. After you left wherever it was you were, Vucitrn I guess, on

23 the 26th, you then went to the village of Kozica. And I think that's

24 about 500 metres away, isn't it?

25 A. You mean from Vushtrri to Kozica?

Page 1862

1 Q. Yes. I think that's about 500 metres, isn't it?

2 A. No, no. It's farther than that, not 500 metres.

3 Q. That's --

4 A. From Vucitrn to Kozhice, the distance is greater. Maybe from

5 Kozica to Cirez it may be as you say.

6 Q. Yes, I've just been told that I was in error on that and that it

7 is between Kozica and Cirez that it's 500 metres and I apologise.

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Now, when you went to the village of Kozica, there were KLA there

10 when you arrived there, weren't there?

11 A. No, I didn't see anyone from KLA.

12 Q. And you were there for about three days when you encountered what

13 I will term the first group of soldiers who you say arrived and shelled

14 the village. Correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you see the weapons that were being used to shell the village?

17 A. When they came there they came with tanks, and I saw the shells --

18 the grenades being fired at the houses. In the courtyard, before going to

19 Rrahim's house, we saw the grenade falling before our very eyes.

20 Q. And when you say "grenade," is that something that's being thrown

21 by hand, or is that a shell that's being fired by a gun, or what are you

22 talking about?

23 A. For me a grenade is a big shell, or long thing over some metres

24 fired from a tank. And I saw it with my own eyes. Maybe you have another

25 name for it, but I refer to it as grenade.

Page 1863

1 Q. That clarifies it. That's good enough. Thank you.

2 Now, as a result of this shelling a couple of things happened.

3 Some people were killed and some people were wounded. Correct?

4 A. Yes, correct.

5 Q. And the men from that village left the village and went into the

6 mountains, didn't they?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And how were they able to get out of the village and go into the

9 mountains without being seen by these soldiers who were close to the

10 village?

11 A. Maybe they saw them and they fired at them, but my husband was

12 lucky and my brother-in-law were lucky to escape. Maybe some got killed.

13 I don't know. The only thing I know is that men left because they

14 couldn't dare stay -- remain there because they would be killed. They

15 went to Cicavica. They fired at the group of women and children, let

16 alone at the men.

17 Q. Well, you -- your husband didn't tell you that they had killed any

18 of the men, did he? You have no information that any of the men that left

19 that village had been killed, do you, that day?

20 A. I have no information that someone was killed that day, with the

21 exception of that young man that was shot who was with our group. I

22 cannot tell you about things I don't know.

23 Q. No, and I'm talking about the men who left the village and went to

24 the mountains. None of those men were killed. They apparently got away

25 safely. And as far as you know, no one chased them. Correct?

Page 1864

1 A. Cicavica is very near to Kozica. Maybe they couldn't see them,

2 because from the house we were staying, Xhemajl Xhema's, from there to

3 Cicavica mountain is very close, maybe some five [Realtime transcript read

4 in error "500"] metres away. So once the shelling started, they left.

5 Q. The transcript says -- 500 metres to Cicavica, is that your

6 testimony?

7 A. Five metres. I said five metres.

8 Q. That's 15 feet or -- I mean, nobody knows what that means. That's

9 very close. That's like the distance between you and me.

10 A. It is. I know it very well.

11 Q. So if you were in Vucitrn, I would be in Cicavica?

12 A. No. From the house of Xhemajl where we were staying, Cicavica is

13 very close, next to the house, from that house, not from Vushtrri. We got

14 together, all the women, at Rrahim's house, where the men -- whereas the

15 men left for Cicavica.

16 Q. Cicavica was a well-known KLA stronghold, wasn't it?

17 A. I don't know. I know that the men went into the mountains because

18 they were afraid they might have -- they might get killed. I don't know

19 how they remained alive there because they had nothing to eat and to

20 drink.

21 Q. Once these soldiers actually arrived into the village after there

22 had been shelling, they sought to give treatment to the wounded people

23 that were there, didn't they?

24 A. Yes. There were ten dead, three injured, from Gjakova. They tied

25 their wounds. They did a good job, those three people that were wounded,

Page 1865

1 and then they asked us to sit down in that yard.

2 Q. You've answered my question and I appreciate that. I think there

3 was a doctor with them, wasn't there?

4 A. Yes, yes, there was.

5 Q. And they -- they first checked to make sure there were no armed

6 men or anybody with arms in that village, that there were no KLA there

7 hiding in any of the houses, and then they started to treat the people

8 that had been injured. That's a fair statement, isn't it?

9 A. No. They set the houses on fire, and then after that they came

10 and tied the wounds of the injured. They took us to a room, to oda, and

11 told us to give them everything valuable we had on us. They got

12 everything we had.

13 Q. Okay. You left Kozica then and you went to -- I think you said in

14 your statement that you went to Glogovac. Is that true?

15 A. Yes. We went to Skenderaj. They didn't let us enter Skenderaj.

16 Then we moved on to Gllogoc.

17 Q. And you stayed there for ten days in the house of your husband's

18 uncle. Correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then you went back to Kozica --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- the place where you had encountered these soldiers, you went

23 back there because you had no food. Correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you know that you could get food in Kozica?

Page 1866

1 A. We wanted to ask people who were there to lend us some flour or

2 anything, something to eat.

3 Q. And when you got back there, your husband and the other men who

4 had fled to the mountains had come back, hadn't they?

5 A. Yes. They didn't have anything to eat in Cicavica, and they came

6 indeed when dusk fell.

7 Q. And then you stayed -- started staying in Xhafer Daka's house in

8 Kozica until around the middle of April, when again some shots were heard,

9 some shelling was heard, and your husband and the other men went back to

10 the mountains. Correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And that's when the boy came and said that you would be better off

13 if you went to Durmishi's house, and so you went there?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And there you encountered a second group of soldiers, was it,

16 different from the ones you had seen before?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. They checked you for weapons, and then after they found you had no

19 weapons --

20 A. Yes. They searched us.

21 Q. After they found you had no weapons, they then treated you very

22 well, didn't they?

23 A. Yes. For three days at Durmishi's house my daughter was running a

24 high temperature, and they gave me some medicine. But after three days

25 when they took us to Cirez, they killed the mother and the daughters,

Page 1867

1 those girls.

2 Q. Well, not those same soldiers. That's not your testimony.

3 A. No, no.

4 Q. These soldiers, when you were at Durmishi's house, they got food

5 for you, they got dry clothes for you, right?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. And I think you concluded that they must have been regular

8 Yugoslav army because not only the uniforms they were wearing but the

9 kindness with which they treated you. True?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then you were -- a soldier came and said that you must get

12 ready to go to Cirez. And these soldiers who had been treating you so

13 well escorted you over to Cirez, didn't they?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you were treated very well on that walk, nothing bad happened

16 to anyone, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And during this walk you learned that they were moving you for

19 your own safety because they said they were expecting an offensive in

20 Kozica, didn't they?

21 A. This is what they told us, but this didn't turn out to be true.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, where is it you're getting -- what's

23 the basis for these questions?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Her statement.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: The statement we have?

Page 1868


2 JUDGE BONOMY: That's fine. Thank you.


4 Q. Now, when you got to Cirez, you encountered a completely different

5 kind of people. They were older men. They were dressed in these brown

6 and black uniforms. One of them had five stars on his shoulder. They

7 had -- some of them had beards, I believe, long hair, right?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. And in fact I think someone suggested to you later that they may

10 have been members of the Black Hand, a paramilitary group, didn't they?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And as you've told this Chamber, that group of men were brutal and

13 horrible and did not treat you or any of your companions well at all, did

14 they?

15 A. That's right. This is what I told them, and this is how it was.

16 Q. Yes. After a time, one of these soldiers then came to you, one of

17 these Black Hand paramilitary guys, said you should go back to Durmishi's

18 house in Kozica?

19 A. Yes. After they searched every one of us, after they took away

20 the five girls, three women, then a soldier came in and said: Go back to

21 Kozica where you were.

22 Q. Well, please understand that we acknowledge that those horrible

23 things happened to you there at the hands of these Black Hand people and

24 we're very sorry those happened to you. Please understand that.

25 Had you heard of this Black Hand before that day, before you

Page 1869

1 learned about who -- that's who they might be?

2 A. In Likoshane village, I heard a year ago, after some bad things

3 happened in a family in Likoshane, they killed a pregnant woman and so on,

4 I heard -- that was a time when I heard for the first time that these were

5 done by the Black Hand, but before that I knew nothing of the Black Hand.

6 Q. Okay. When you went back to Cirez and saw the soldiers that you

7 had seen there before, you felt comfortable enough about your relationship

8 with them to tell them about what had happened to you in Cirez, didn't

9 you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And in fact they expressed a great deal of concern and sympathy

12 for your situation and what had happened to you there, didn't they?

13 A. This is what they told us. But when we went to Kozica I saw again

14 the same soldier. He knew what happened. But they behaved well with us

15 even though they knew very well where they were taking us. Because when

16 we returned to Kozica again, before entering Durmishi's house, it was one

17 house some 50 metres away, I saw the soldier that took us to Cirez and I

18 said to this my group, to the group of people, and I pin-pointed at him

19 because I couldn't speak in Serbo-Croatian. When he saw me pin-pointing

20 at him, he went inside because he was afraid lest we would go up to him

21 and tell him: Why did you take us there? What are you doing to us?

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Ackerman, look at 69, line 9, when you

23 went back to -- should that be Kozica?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: No, it should be Cirez.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

Page 1870

1 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll clear that up just so that there's no --

2 Q. After you had gone back to Kozica and told the soldiers about what

3 had happened there in Cirez, they took you back to Cirez to try to help

4 you find the missing women and girls, didn't they? That's what they said

5 they were going to do, find out what happened to them.

6 A. When they -- after they took away the girls and told us to go to

7 Kozhice, this is when I saw the soldier. Before we entered the Durmishi's

8 house. And I told the people in my group: This is the soldier that

9 escorted us to Cirez. But as I said when he saw me pointing at him, he

10 went inside and didn't leave the house until we passed.

11 Q. You've already told us that about three times now, but that's not

12 the question I asked you.

13 When you explained to the soldiers back in Kozica what had

14 happened in Cirez, they went back there with you to try to find out what

15 had happened to the missing women and girls? That's true, isn't it?

16 A. Yes, they came with us. But when I showed them that this is the

17 barn when they took away the girls, they told me: Go ahead. I know, I

18 know. And they moved us further away.

19 Q. You went then to a different house in Cirez, didn't you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And in that house you encountered yet another group, what I call a

22 fourth group of soldiers, didn't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And these soldiers also treated you well. They brought you food

25 and flour to bake bread?

Page 1871

1 A. Yes. I cannot say what they didn't do. I am just saying what

2 they did, what happened to us. I told you that they behaved well in

3 Kozhice and again when they sent us to Cirez. Maybe among them there were

4 also good people.

5 Q. Now, just to be fair with both you and the Chamber, while you were

6 in this second place in Cirez, the house where they brought you food and

7 flour and so forth and treated you well, you did say that two soldiers

8 came at one point and demanded some money. But in your statement you said

9 that this was probably not known to the other soldiers, that those two

10 soldiers were operating on their own without permission, basically. Is

11 that a fair statement?

12 A. Yes. Because as I said, they had behaved well, but then two

13 soldiers came inside and they asked us to give them money. We pulled

14 together some 400 Deutschmarks, and they said: If you don't -- your group

15 doesn't give us 200 Deutschmarks, you will get killed. And they turned to

16 Hajrije and asked her for money, and she said: I have no money. And he

17 brought out his arm and shot in the air just to scare us.

18 Q. The next thing that happened, the next move, these soldiers came

19 and told you that you should go to Glogovac because they believed there

20 was going to be an offensive in Cirez and you would be safe in Glogovac.

21 Is that a fair statement?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Ackerman, is this a suitable time to

24 interrupt you?


Page 1872

1 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Well, we'll adjourn now and resume

2 at 6.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 5.27 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman. Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. Thank you.

7 Q. Ms. Rrahmani, I want to take you back in time to those days in the

8 fall of the year 2000 when you gave your statement to the Office of the

9 Prosecutor. There was an interviewer there by the name of Annette Murtagh

10 and a couple of interpreters that worked with her on that day. Do you

11 remember -- actually, it was three days. Do you remember that three-day

12 period when you were giving your original statement to the Office of the

13 Prosecutor?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And one of the things I'm sure they did was give you an

16 opportunity to just tell your story without asking a bunch of questions

17 but just have you tell the story and tell them what happened and tell them

18 the important things that you believed happened during these times. Isn't

19 that what happened?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then after -- after this three-day period, they actually

22 created a witness statement, and before you finished they read that out to

23 you and it was translated into your language. And you acknowledged that

24 it was true and signed it and basically signed every page of it, didn't

25 you?

Page 1873

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you were given -- they gave you every opportunity to tell them

3 everything you could remember that you thought was significant about these

4 days in your life. Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, when you testified today you talked about -- it's -- it's

7 hard to tell, Your Honour, because I have a print-out. I think it's

8 page 22 of the transcript. In any event, you were talking about when that

9 first group of soldiers came to the village where you were where the tanks

10 you said were firing -- shelling the village. You told us today that

11 there was this mentally disabled young man 30 years old, 28 years old, who

12 was shouting and crying. And you said: They shot him immediately right

13 then and there in the Kozica village in this house. That's what you told

14 us today, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, I can't find that anywhere in the statement that you spent

17 three days giving to the Prosecutor in the year 2000 where you were given

18 plenty of time to tell them everything that was significant that you could

19 remember. Do you think you told them that at the time?

20 A. No, I didn't tell them about that. I forgot to tell them, but I

21 mentioned it now.

22 Q. I want to go now to a little bit later in your testimony today. I

23 think it's on page 29 of the transcript. You were talking about the time

24 that you were going I believe from Cirez to -- to Glogovac, and you saw

25 trucks on the road containing soldiers. And you said this. You said:

Page 1874

1 "You could only see women and children. There were no men because if

2 they found men there, they would kill them immediately, even young boys,

3 13 years old, they would kill them."

4 Now, you never saw any of these soldiers kill young boys 13 years

5 old, did you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You were asked a great deal over and over I might say, about what

8 colour uniforms people were wearing, the soldiers you were seeing. And

9 you talked -- you were asked about green uniforms and camouflage green

10 uniforms and brown and black uniforms, and I don't know how many other

11 colours of uniforms. You can't, by looking at the colour of a uniform

12 someone's wearing, tell what unit they're from or what service they're

13 from or anything else, can you?

14 A. I said green. This is what I call in our language in the village.

15 We call them green.

16 Q. No, I'm not --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, this is a matter for comment. It's

18 not a question that the witness can answer.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, let me ask the witness --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: And she hasn't endeavoured to make the link in any

21 event, has she?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll leave it alone, Your Honour. Wise advice, I

23 think.

24 Q. I have just one more question. At the -- near the end of your

25 statement to the Prosecutor, after you had been the second time in Cirez

Page 1875

1 for three weeks and you were told that you should go to Glogovac because

2 there was going to be an offensive in Cirez, the soldiers believed that

3 where do you might be in danger there and suggested you go to Glogovac.

4 And what you said was: "And we went to Glogovac and we would get buses to

5 Macedonia."

6 Now, today what you said, and this is page 42, starting with

7 line 9, you were asked: "After the three weeks in Cirez, where did you go

8 next?"

9 "A. They told us that you will go to Glogovac," it says here

10 Gllogoc, "and we will send you to Macedonia" --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- "There's no place for you here."

13 Now, that's entirely different from what you said in your

14 statement. In your statement the indication is they were sending you

15 there for your safety, and that's what's true, isn't it?

16 A. There were 11 buses sent towards that direction, and people said

17 that some of the buses were stopped and people were told to get down. I

18 know that these buses were loaded with people and drove to -- in the

19 direction of Macedonia. But I don't know where they went exactly.

20 Q. You've totally misunderstood my question, and again that's

21 probably my fault. The indication in your statement -- in fact, you say

22 directly in your statement that you were told by the soldiers that you

23 were being sent to Glogovac because there was going to be an offensive in

24 Cirez, they believed, and it would be dangerous for you to stay there.

25 That's what you said in your statement, isn't it?

Page 1876

1 A. Not that. In Cirez they said it's because of that. But when the

2 buses came close to Gllogoc they said: This is not your place. You have

3 to leave. Go to Macedonia. But where we were before, in Cirez, we were

4 told: It's better for you to go somewhere else because it's dangerous for

5 you here.

6 Q. Yeah. That makes total sense because the people that -- after you

7 got on the buses and got over to Glogovac the people who told you what

8 they told you there are not these soldiers who were trying to get you to

9 safety out of Cirez but a different group, wasn't it?

10 A. They had the same uniform, but I don't know if they were the same

11 or not.

12 Q. All right. Thank you very much for answering my questions, I

13 appreciate it. And I have no further questions for you.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, can you tell me whether the basis for

15 the question that led to the answer which you were characterising as being

16 contradictory of what is in that third-last paragraph of the statement,

17 whether that information is in the proofing notes you were given, or is

18 that something which has come spontaneously in the evidence today?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think it's in the proofing notes, Your

20 Honour.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't believe so. I don't see it there.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

24 Now, Mr. O'Sullivan.

25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, Your Honour. We've agreed to proceed in the

Page 1877

1 following order after counsel for General Pavkovic: Counsel for

2 Mr. Milutinovic, counsel for Mr. Sainovic, counsel for General Ojdanic,

3 General Lazarevic, and General Lukic.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: In other words, according to the indictment, so

5 carry on, please.

6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: And I have no questions.

7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila -- sorry, Mr. Hannis.

9 MR. HANNIS: If I may inquire, if we can have a rough estimate

10 from the Defence whether remaining cross-examine will take us until 7.00

11 because I think we have the next witness waiting here who could return

12 early to the hotel if we're not going to get to her.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay, Mr. Hannis, I'll check that in a moment.

14 Mr. Fila, your position?

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

16 questions.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic -- oh, Mr. Sepenuk.

18 MR. SEPENUK: Your Honour, we have no questions.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 Mr. Cepic.

21 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, we also have no questions.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic -- sorry, Mr. Ivetic.

23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, we have some questions for this witness,

24 and I anticipate if everything goes the way I've anticipated about 30

25 minutes worth of questions, so that would leave about 15 minutes in this

Page 1878

1 session.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I think the witness should return to the hotel,

3 Mr. Hannis.

4 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Carry on, Mr. Ivetic.

6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Rrahmani. My name is Dan Ivetic, and along

9 with my colleague here, Mr. Branko Lukic, and our case manager, Mr. Ozren

10 Ogrizovic, today I represent Mr. Sreten Lukic. And I have to ask you for

11 your patience because we have some questions that we have to ask you

12 regarding what you witnessed in Kosovo-Metohija to clear up a few things

13 that you may have already testified to.

14 Now, my first question relates to the time period of March 1999,

15 and in your written statement at -- in the Albanian it's page 2,

16 paragraph 3, and I believe that it is the same citation for all three

17 versions of the transcript. You make reference to the fact that the NATO

18 bombs started in March of 1999, and my first question for you would be:

19 Is it thus accurate to state that NATO planes were flying overhead, that

20 is to say over the municipality of Vucitrn and over the villages that you

21 have described here today in March of 1999 on a very frequent basis?

22 A. Whose airplanes you mean?

23 Q. NATO.

24 A. You mean before the 26th of March? I did not understand the

25 question. I'm sorry.

Page 1879

1 Q. Let me -- allow me to rephrase the question. After March the 24th

2 of 1999, I believe you had indicated that the NATO bombs had started to --

3 the NATO bombs had started, is I believe what you said. I'm asking you

4 for that time period after that date, is it a fair statement to state that

5 NATO planes frequently flew overhead over the Vucitrn municipality,

6 including the several villages within that municipality that we have

7 discussed here today?

8 A. I did not see any. I don't know.

9 Q. Okay. Now, to clear up a few matters, the village where you --

10 where your home is, that's Bukos village. Is that accurate?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And how big is Bukos village in terms of population?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Is Bukos small enough to permit you to at least be acquainted with

15 most of the people who live there?

16 A. No, I don't know all the people. It's quite a large village.

17 It's a large village, but I don't know how many inhabitants it has.

18 Q. Okay. Fair enough. I believe that you stated that there were

19 many Serbs that lived in Bukos. Is that accurate?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. And did you have knowledge that some of these Serb families

22 began leaving Bukos during 1998 and 1999?

23 A. There were two families that were living close to us, and they

24 were there all the time. I don't know about other people who might have

25 been living farther away.

Page 1880

1 Q. Okay, ma'am. Well, during the time period of 1998 and 1999, isn't

2 it a fact that some of these Serb families were -- were receiving threats

3 from the so-called UCK-KLA in Bukos?

4 A. No. Until the moment those two Serbs were killed, I had never

5 heard that anybody had been threatened by the KLA. I don't know who

6 killed those two Serbs. I'm not sure, but that's all I can tell you.

7 Q. Okay. And, ma'am, prior to living in Bukos village you were born

8 in a village called Dubovac. Is that correct?

9 A. It's called Dubovc.

10 Q. In the Albanian it's Dobovc. In Serbian is that Dubovac?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. And in 1999 did you still have friends and/or family that

13 lived in Dubovc?

14 A. No. When I was a child, I cannot remember -- I don't remember

15 that there were any Serbs in that village when I was a child.

16 Q. I apologise, perhaps my question wasn't -- wasn't clear. In 1999,

17 did you still have any friends or family that lived in Dubovc?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Okay. And -- first of all, as far as Bukos is concerned, did you

20 have knowledge of any so-called UCK or KLA that were present in that

21 village at any time during 1998 through 1999?

22 A. There might have been, but I haven't seen any.

23 Q. Okay. And how about for your birth village of Dubovc?

24 A. That's what I'm saying. There might have been, but I didn't see

25 any. I went to visit for a couple of hours, went back to my children. I

Page 1881

1 did not stay there for such a long time to see who was in the village. I

2 told you, there might have been.

3 Q. Okay. Now, isn't it true that the UCK or KLA, as they called

4 themselves, were engaged in acts of violence within Bukos village,

5 specifically during early 1999?

6 A. This is the first time I'm hearing about this. I don't know.

7 Q. Well, ma'am, I believe earlier today you testified about two Serbs

8 that were killed. If I can ask you to focus in on that. I believe that

9 the -- that you -- well, strike that.

10 Mr. Ackerman asked you, my colleague Mr. Ackerman asked you

11 whether in fact you left your village due to the attacks upon these Serb

12 civilians. And I believe he asked you about March of 1999. I want to ask

13 you about February of 1999, specifically February 22nd, 1999, when you

14 testified that you left your home in Bukos village for the first time.

15 Isn't it a fact that on February 22nd of 1999 there was a shooting that

16 took place in Bukos village where the UCK-KLA killed one Serbian civilian,

17 wounded two other civilians, and that this was a widely reported incident.

18 Do you have a recollection of that, ma'am?

19 A. I know -- I don't know who shot into my courtyard. We left our

20 house because of all the shooting. It was the Serbian army who shot at

21 our houses. There are other things that are not in my statement here that

22 I could add. My relatives were forced out of their house with automatic

23 rifles at their throats and forced --

24 Q. Ma'am, I'm talking about February 22nd specifically, and

25 specifically about an event that was recorded, and I believe this is the

Page 1882

1 event that you saw on TV relating to the attack by the UCK-KLA upon

2 Serbian residents of Bukos village, Mr. Milan Milosevic, Mr. Milos

3 Prodanovic, and Mr. Mirko Milosevic. Is that not in fact true that this

4 attack occurred on the very same day that you claim that you left your

5 village, on February 22nd of 1999?

6 A. I don't know whether the KLA killed them. I just saw on

7 television that people were killed, but I don't know who they were. I had

8 just heard that they were from Bukos.

9 Q. And in fact I believe you testified earlier today that you didn't

10 really pay attention to what was on the TV. Is that accurate?

11 A. I didn't know what they were saying because of the language, and

12 my husband explained to me that it was an incident in our village of

13 Bukos.

14 Q. Well, ma'am, more than that, isn't it a fact that prior to --

15 prior to returning to Bukos and engaging in the act that resulted in the

16 death of one person and the wounding of two others, that this incident

17 also took place in Dubovc, your birth village, that is to say that the KLA

18 kidnapped these people and took them to your birth village, then brought

19 them back to the village you lived in and shot them. Did you know that?

20 A. No, I don't know who killed them. I just know what I heard at the

21 time. I don't know who they were. My husband told me that it had

22 happened in the village of Bukos. I don't know anything else.

23 Q. I'm just confused why you would not be more interested in such an

24 event that included the village you lived in as well as your birth village

25 and killings. I would think that that would be a very -- very concerning

Page 1883

1 fact to be made aware of. Were you not at all concerned about what had

2 transpired?

3 A. Well, we heard about it, as I said, from the news, and it had

4 happened a day earlier than that. And we stayed in the village even after

5 that.

6 Q. And after that event, that is to say after the incident of

7 February 22nd, 1999, the killing of Mr. Mirko Milosevic, isn't it a fact

8 that the Serbian police accompanied by the OSCE-KVM mission came to Bukos

9 village and that they, too, were fired upon by the KLA. Do you have

10 knowledge of that?

11 A. Are you saying that they shot against the OSCE? I didn't

12 understand that.

13 Q. Yes, ma'am. Isn't it a fact that the following day after this

14 incident that we discussed, the Serbian police and the OSCE-KVM mission

15 came to your village of Bukos to investigate the shooting, and that on

16 that second day the KLA, using mortars and infantry weapons, shot upon the

17 Serbian police, first of all, wounding five police officers and one

18 reporter from the Associated Press. And then after that shot upon the

19 OSCE vehicle that was in Bukos village?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Okay. Now, isn't it a fact that on the night you claim you left

22 Bukos village, the 22nd of February, isn't it a fact that you testified in

23 the Milosevic proceedings at page 4584 of the transcript, lines 18

24 through 25, and I quote the question.

25 "It happened on the 22nd of February, the killing of those two

Page 1884

1 young men, and the villagers on the next day, that is to say the Kosovo

2 Verification Mission, was there the next day and the KLA shot at members

3 of the mission, too. Do you remember that? Did you hear the shooting

4 on -- in your village at all, both on the 22nd and on the 23rd of

5 February?"

6 And your answer was: "On the 22nd of February in the evening, we

7 left the house because there was fighting in the village and there were

8 forces there, but we didn't know what was going on."

9 My question to you is: Did you in fact leave your village of

10 Bukos on the 22nd of February because of the activity of the KLA against

11 these -- these parties that I've identified, first on the 22nd against

12 civilians, and then on the 23rd against the Serbian police, the Associated

13 Press reporter, and the OSCE. Was that not the real reason you left on

14 the 22nd of February, the chaos that was ensuing due to a KLA attack?

15 A. We did not know who was shooting against whom that day. We left

16 with the children. The men were staying there, but the next day the men

17 were forced to leave the Serbian army.

18 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you: After that date, isn't it a fact that

19 many ethnic Albanians remained in Bukos village?

20 A. People who were living close to where I was living left. I don't

21 know about people further away.

22 Q. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Hamil Pllana who was a

23 resident of Bukos village in 1999?

24 A. Hamil Pllana, no, I don't know him. I have never heard before of

25 this name, Hamil.

Page 1885

1 Q. Okay. Do you know that on April 4th, 1999, it was reported that

2 this individual, an ethnic Albanian, was killed by the KLA in your village

3 of Bukos?

4 A. He might have been killed. I don't know anything about it.

5 Q. Well, wasn't it general knowledge within the area that you lived

6 in that the so-called UCK or KLA was involved in violent attacks, both

7 against Serb civilians and against Albanian civilians?

8 A. Our houses were not attacked. I don't know about other people and

9 other houses.

10 Q. Did you have knowledge of any acts of violent retaliation by the

11 UCK-KLA against ethnic Albanian residents of Kosovo who cooperated with

12 the Serbian government or rejected the militant path of the KLA?

13 A. Maybe they attacked them. I'm not denying it, but the fact is

14 that I don't know. But even if they attacked them, I think it serves them

15 right, because why should they spy on us? Why should they give

16 information to the enemy when we were being killed?

17 Q. Can I take that to mean, ma'am, that you have a negative

18 impression of ethnic Albanians who reject the militant path of the KLA and

19 choose to cooperate with the state that they live in?

20 A. They were killing us all, and you are talking just about one

21 person who was killed. And things, what you are mentioning here, they

22 might have happened, yes, but it's because of them that we were killed,

23 because of the people who were spying.

24 Q. Was there a back-lash against these Albanians that followed the

25 laws of the Serbian state and cooperated with the laws of the Serbian

Page 1886

1 state on the part of the remaining Kosovo Albanian residents in your area,

2 since I think that's probably the only place I can fairly ask you about?

3 A. I don't know whether there were any consequences.

4 Q. Okay.

5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I think I've exhausted all the

6 questions that I have a little bit earlier than I had anticipated.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter.

10 MS. CARTER: Briefly, Your Honour. I just want to bring to the

11 Court's attention that there was some discussion during my case in chief

12 in regards to what took place on February 22nd of 1999. What became an

13 issue was this witness giving new information or something that the

14 Defence counsel did not previously have. As has been clearly pointed out

15 by Mr. Lukic today, February 22nd was at issue, February 22nd was in

16 documents that Defence counsel had in their possession. It was the

17 mistake of this counsel for indicating that it was first learned in

18 proofing. However, the Defence counsel cannot claim surprise because it

19 is a part of the submissions from this witness.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, it's Mr. Ivetic I think you're referring to.

21 Which was the page in the transcript again? He referred to a reference to

22 the 22nd of February in the Milosevic transcript.

23 MS. CARTER: Certainly. It's on page 4584, the question begins on

24 page 18. Mr. Milosevic is trying to indicate that there was some KLA

25 fighting in the village at that time. The witness then indicates: "We

Page 1887

1 left the house because there was fighting in the village and there were

2 forces there but we didn't know what was going on."

3 MR. IVETIC: Is this in the way of re-direct? I didn't realise

4 this issue was still pending?

5 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, it's a clarification of our earlier

6 discussion about -- at least it's an amplification of the Prosecution

7 position on the earlier discussion we had about what may or may not have

8 been disclosed.

9 Now, do you have some questions?

10 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour, no further questions. I just wanted

11 to bring that note to the Court's attention in an effort to show that we

12 aren't being transparent and have provided all information that we had at

13 our finger-tips.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: What I find unfortunate is that in the light of a

15 witness giving evidence, no steps are taken to pull all the material

16 together and go over it with the witness in the pre-trial phase. I've

17 tried very hard, as you know, to have that done. I failed abysmally in my

18 efforts to do so. But I think that one of the lessons we've learned now

19 with two witnesses in this case is that it actually works against the

20 interests of the witness not to have done this. It means that a witness

21 might feel that in one case his position has not been properly

22 represented, and in another case might feel unjustly challenged because of

23 the way in which the material has been gathered and presented.

24 Having said that, we recognise we have to make what we can of what

25 we receive, and that we will do. But it's not too late to argue yet

Page 1888

1 again, if you can, to try to speak to the witnesses earlier and give

2 everyone the final version, the updated final version at the earliest

3 possible opportunity.

4 JUDGE CHOWHAN: And I do hope that you'll not disappoint my Lord

5 Bonomy on that, because it will help a lot because many things then we are

6 looking and asking and then we're trying to cover and it leads to a sort

7 of a skirmish, isn't it, sometimes, though politely, but I hope you will

8 not disappoint my Lord again or the Bench.

9 Thank you.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mrs. Rrahmani, that brings your evidence to an

11 end. I hope that this is the last time that you have to come here, and I

12 expect it will be. But thank you very much for coming again to The Hague

13 to give your evidence, and you are now free to leave.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm just checking that the possibility of sitting

18 in the morning hasn't arisen tomorrow, but it hasn't as far as I have been

19 able to check.

20 So we will adjourn now and resume at 2.15 tomorrow.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.40 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Friday, the 18th day of

23 August, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.