Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3937

1 Tuesday, 26 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: We are going into closed session as the witness

6 enters court.

7 [Closed session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, sir.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Your evidence will continue this morning. It's

17 important that you remember that the declaration you made at the very

18 beginning of your evidence to tell the truth continues to apply to that

19 evidence -- the evidence that you give today.

20 Mr. Marcussen.

21 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you.

22 WITNESS: WITNESS K83 [Resumed]

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Examination by Mr. Marcussen: [Continued]

25 Q. Good morning, K83. We left off yesterday talking about the Cegar

Page 3938

1 units and Cegar 1. I want you -- I asked you about the uniform of the

2 Cegar unit yesterday.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What -- you said the units had a camouflage uniform and then they

5 had a vest on top of that one that said "police" on the back. Do you

6 remember the colour of the uniform, the camouflage uniform?

7 A. The colour was green, military camouflage uniform.

8 Q. [Microphone not activated]

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


11 Q. And the vest was the same colour?

12 A. Yes, except for the white letters that said "policija," "police."

13 Q. Were the Cegar units stationed in Suva Reka or outside Suva Reka?

14 A. Part was in Suva Reka and another part was in the surrounding

15 villages.

16 Q. Do you know where they had their base?

17 A. I don't know exactly.

18 MR. MARCUSSEN: Forgive me one moment, Your Honour. I have to

19 stand and turn off and on the microphone. It's a little inconvenient with

20 the set-up I've made. One moment.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].

22 MR. MARCUSSEN: My apologies.

23 Q. Do you know -- the police units, would you describe them as

24 ordinary police units or special police units?

25 A. Regular police units.

Page 3939

1 Q. Okay. I now return to the events as they unfolded on the 26th of

2 March. You explained yesterday you returned from patrol and then you saw

3 Cegar 1 and his units in front of the police station. I'd now like to

4 show you a picture of that area and ask if you can help us explain where

5 you saw these different units.

6 MR. MARCUSSEN: Could we see P2349, please.

7 Q. K83, while we wait for the picture to come up -- oh, there it was.

8 You said there were two trucks yesterday. Did Cegar 1 come with a third

9 vehicle?

10 A. Yes, he gave came with his Land Rover.

11 MR. MARCUSSEN: If the usher would assist the witness with a pen,

12 please.

13 Q. K83, I will ask if you on this picture could indicate

14 approximately where you saw the two trucks that the Cegar units had come

15 in.

16 A. Here two trucks, and Cegar 1 with his vehicle was parked here.

17 Q. Would you please put the letter A where you saw -- where the

18 trucks were and the letter B where Cegar 1's car was.

19 A. I did not understand you.

20 Q. Would you put the letter B where Cegar 1's Land Rover was.

21 A. All right.

22 Q. And the police station, could you put the letter C on the police

23 station or the SUP, if you see it on this picture.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. Thank you. And where were you when you came back from the patrol?

Page 3940

1 Where did you stop your car?

2 A. We were in front of the SUP building on the sidewalk.

3 Q. Then what happened? Could you explain that, please.

4 A. We were watching them getting off the truck, that is to say the

5 police, and we saw them move towards the road to Restane.

6 Q. Did Cegar 1 speak to anyone from the SUP?

7 A. Since we watched them getting out and go into the first houses

8 opposite the SUP, he walked up to the assistant commander, Nenad

9 Jovanovic.

10 Q. Did Cegar 1 say anything to Jovanovic?

11 A. He said that we shouldn't be watching but that we should follow

12 right behind him.

13 Q. In what voice did he say that? Was he just speaking normally?

14 Was he giving orders? Was he yelling? How would you describe the way he

15 was speaking to Jovanovic?

16 A. Well, the assistant commander saluted back properly. Cegar 1

17 didn't even want to greet him properly. He was just shouting. He said:

18 "Get going." So he was furious.

19 Q. Do you know why he was furious?

20 A. Well, I don't know. Maybe because we were watching, maybe --

21 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Can he mark the place where they were standing,

22 please, where they were available because then this will make the picture

23 complete.


25 Q. K83, where on this picture were Cegar 1 and Jovanovic standing

Page 3941

1 when this took place?

2 JUDGE CHOWHAN: [Microphone not activated].

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in front of the SUP building,

4 that is to say somewhere around here.


6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. MARCUSSEN: The witness had made a red dot just above the red

8 car that can be seen in front of the police station.

9 JUDGE CHOWHAN: [Microphone not activated].


11 Q. K83, how did Jovanovic react when he had been yelled at by Cegar

12 1?

13 A. Well, Mr. Nenad Jovanovic, assistant commander, just said that we

14 should get going in a sort of lost way. We didn't know where, what for,

15 why. We didn't know what to do. But we just blindly set off towards the

16 first houses that were there, and Cegar's men were walking ahead of us and

17 we were following them.

18 Q. Were you walking or running, do you remember?

19 A. Well, I think it was sort of running -- well, fast running at

20 that.

21 Q. Where did you go?

22 A. Well, we got to the house where the OSCE had been previously.

23 Q. Who were with you at that point in time?

24 A. Well, assistant commander Nenad Jovanovic; Radovan Tanovic;

25 Cukaric, Sladjan; and I.

Page 3942

1 Q. Did anyone tell you to take up a position somewhere?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who was that?

4 A. Since Sladjan Cukaric was head of the patrol, he ordered us to

5 stop on the left and right side of the house so that no one would shoot at

6 them.

7 Q. Do you see the house on this picture?

8 A. Yes, I see it.

9 Q. Could you -- would you mark with the letter D, like delta, where

10 you took up position.

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. Who was on the -- you said, "we took up position." Who was the

13 other person who took up position with you?

14 A. Miki Petkovic.

15 Q. And where was he positioned?

16 A. He was on the other side, on the back side of the house.

17 Q. Okay. When -- on this picture it looks like there is -- there are

18 some bushes or something next to and in front of the house close to where

19 you were standing. At the time was that there?

20 A. No, it wasn't.

21 Q. And there's also -- there's some sort of a fence in front of the

22 white vehicles that can be seen in the back of the OSCE house. At the

23 time was that there?

24 A. Yes, there was a wall there about 2 metres or even more.

25 Q. Could you make a line where the wall you're talking about was.

Page 3943

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. Thank you. From -- from where you were standing, did you have a

3 clear view down along the house and down to the back of the OSCE house?

4 A. Yes, you could see it.

5 Q. We can see it on the picture, but approximately how far would you

6 estimate it was from where you were standing and down to the back of the

7 OSCE house?

8 A. Well, it was about 50 metres.

9 Q. Could you describe what you -- what you saw from where you were

10 positioned when you had -- when you had been taking up positions, you were

11 watching down, what did you see?

12 A. Shooting was coming from all sides, so I was afraid and I went

13 towards the house by the road, you see, where the OSCE had been.

14 Q. You say you were afraid. What were you afraid of?

15 A. Well, because there was gun-fire coming from all sides. You

16 didn't know where they were shooting there from. There was no shelter for

17 me to hide.

18 Q. Who was shooting?

19 A. Cegar's units were shooting.

20 Q. While you were still at the position you have marked with D, did

21 anybody come out from the house where you were close to the house?

22 A. [No interpretation].

23 Q. I heard your answer but I think it didn't get translated. Could

24 you answer again, please.

25 A. From that house, women and children came out.

Page 3944

1 Q. How did they come out? Were they running? Were they walking?

2 What was the situation like?

3 A. They started running. They were frightened, and they started

4 fleeing towards the shopping centre.

5 Q. When they had run out of the house, did you move from your

6 position?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where did you first go?

9 A. I got to Tanovic and Cukaric because they were looking at the IDs

10 of four persons who were by the house -- or rather, behind the OSCE

11 house.

12 Q. Could you indicate with the letter E like echo approximately

13 where Cegar and his -- and the other persons were, the four detained men.

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. And you were somewhere behind that, is that what you are saying,

16 but relatively close by. Is that how I understand it?

17 A. Well, I was somewhere around the middle, that would mean around

18 here.

19 MR. MARCUSSEN: The witness has made a dot a little under the E

20 that he just placed on the photograph.

21 Q. Could you describe what you saw then. Did Cegar do anything to

22 the men?

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you answer that, I think we are talking

24 about someone called Tanovic and someone called Cukaric. Now, does Cegar

25 come in somewhere as well?

Page 3945

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour. No, that's my mistake.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tanovic and Cukaric first looked at

4 the IDs of these persons. They took their documents and they were facing

5 the wall, their faces were turned to the wall.


7 Q. And then what happened?

8 A. Then they said to me that I should escort -- or rather, follow

9 these persons who left the house, women, children, old men, to see where

10 they were going.

11 Q. Did you see what happened to the four men that were lined up

12 against the wall?

13 A. They were killed right by the house.

14 Q. And you saw that?

15 A. Yes. They were shooting at them already as I was passing there.

16 Q. You were told that you should follow the people that had ran out.

17 And what were you to do once you had followed them, should you just follow

18 them or should you do something else?

19 A. I was just supposed to see where they were going and to inform

20 Cukaric and Tanovic as to where they went further on.

21 Q. Could I ask you to draw a line on the map from the point you made

22 below the E and then tracking the approximate route that you went.

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. Did you pass over the bus station from there?

25 A. Yes. There was this passageway here and --

Page 3946

1 Q. Could you -- I know you might be making a line through the houses

2 because the passageway is too narrow to be seen on the photograph, but

3 could you make a line to the approximate place where you went on the -- on

4 the bus station.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. And then from the place where you have made the line now, where

7 did you go?

8 Oh, sorry, excuse me, before I ask you to continue the line, did

9 you see any -- any people on the -- at the bus station?

10 A. I saw two elderly men -- or rather, a man and an elderly woman who

11 were lying on the sidewalk. They had been wounded in the legs.

12 Q. [Microphone not activated]?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


15 Q. Could I ask you to make the letter F at the approximate place

16 where the -- the two elderly persons were.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. MARCUSSEN: Before this gets too complicated, I think we

20 should maybe make this an exhibit and then continue with a clean copy.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: That will be necessary, will it? Will we run into

22 difficulty if we don't continue to see this -- presumably we're heading

23 for the cafe or the pizza, are we?

24 MR. MARCUSSEN: Let's make sure we have saved a copy of this and

25 we can continue to work on it.

Page 3947

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC47, Your Honours.


3 Q. K83, from where the F is, where did you go? What route did you

4 take?

5 A. We set out to the pizzeria.

6 Q. Could you draw on this picture the route that you took to the

7 pizzeria, please?

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, what you need to do is bring up IC47 and then

9 start drawing on top of it I think. We've lost what we had so far.

10 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think we still have the old ...

11 Q. I'm sorry, K83, we're just trying to re-call the drawing you just

12 did and nothing to do with you. That's me who's giving confusing

13 directions.

14 Right. K83, we have the picture back again. So you've marked

15 with an F the location -- the approximate location where the two elderly

16 persons were lying on the ground, shot in the leg. You then went to the

17 place you call the pizzeria. Could you show us what route you took to get

18 to that place?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you stop at the point that you have reached now or did you

21 go -- or did you go further down in the direction of the pizzeria?

22 A. All I could see, that these civilians, the elderly people and the

23 children, were in the pizzeria, and then I returned.

24 Q. Could I ask that you put the letter G at the approximate place

25 where the pizzeria is?

Page 3948

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. You said you could see the civilians. Were they inside or outside

3 the pizzeria?

4 A. They were inside the pizzeria.

5 Q. Were there any other people in uniform around that area when you

6 walked down towards the pizzeria?

7 A. No, there were none.

8 Q. Is it possible for you to estimate how many people were in or

9 around the pizzeria at the time you looked down in that direction?

10 A. I don't know the exact number, but approximately 35 to 40 people.

11 Q. What did you do next?

12 A. I returned to Cukaric and Tanovic to tell them that the people

13 were in the pizzeria and that they were locked up.

14 Q. What do you mean by locked up?

15 A. Well, they had the key, so they locked themselves up.

16 Q. How do you know they had locked themselves up in the pizzeria?

17 Were you down there to -- to see it or is it something you were told?

18 A. The door was locked; it couldn't be opened.

19 Q. Did you -- did you meet Cukaric and Tanovic?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Where did you approximately see them? You don't need to mark it

22 on the map, if you can just describe where you saw them.

23 A. Well, we met on the road where the vehicles are parked in front of

24 the shopping centre.

25 Q. What -- how were you feeling at that point in time? Were you

Page 3949

1 still frightened?

2 A. I was very scared and under stress, since it all happened quickly,

3 including the shooting. And they told me to go to the closest restaurant

4 or bar to get a drink to try and calm down.

5 Q. Did you do that?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. And where -- where is the restaurant or kiosk or shop you went

8 into? If you make a dot first so we can see that.

9 A. [Marks].

10 MR. MARCUSSEN: The witness has made a dot just above the F that

11 he made a little earlier to indicate the place he went into to have

12 something to drink.

13 Q. And did you then pick up something to drink and came out again?

14 A. I took two bottles of liquor. There was a cognac or brandy or

15 vodka. I can't recall. When I was returning, the people who were on the

16 sidewalk who had been alive previously when I passed by, they were now

17 dead.

18 Q. That is the two elderly people. Is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How do you know they were dead?

21 A. As I passed by on my way to fetch a drink, they were still alive,

22 but as I was coming back, they were dead, they were killed.

23 Q. From what you could see, do you think they had died from the

24 wounds they had received earlier or do you think something happened to

25 them between the two times you saw them?

Page 3950

1 A. They were shot in the head.

2 Q. After you have seen that --

3 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, I think at this stage we should make what we

4 have now an exhibit and change to another view of the same scenario as we

5 proceed. So let's first make this an in-court exhibit, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC48, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 MR. MARCUSSEN: And then I'd like to see the second page of this

9 same exhibit we have on the screen.

10 Q. K83, while we're sorting out the technological stuff here, when

11 you had come out and you were taking the two bottles and you saw the two

12 elderly people that had been shot and were lying on the ground, did you --

13 where did you go? You can just tell me first if you can just describe

14 where you went to and we'll make a mark afterwards on the picture we have

15 on the screen now.

16 A. Well, we went to the area between the pizzeria and this building,

17 this is where we were.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Before we move on to this, Mr. Marcussen, is there

19 no help that you can obtain for us on who was responsible for the deaths

20 of the elderly couple? Is there just nothing on that?

21 MR. MARCUSSEN: Let's have a try.

22 Q. Do you know -- you saw that the two elderly people had been shot

23 in the head. Do you know who shot them?

24 A. Sladjan Cukaric.

25 Q. Did you see him do that?

Page 3951

1 A. I saw him, he had a rifle in his hand when I came back.

2 Q. Did you see him fire the rifle or was he just close by the bodies

3 with a rifle?

4 A. He was close to the body and he had a rifle, and I also heard a

5 shot. This was all very close by; we are talking about 5 or 6 metres.

6 Q. Did you -- at that point in time was he facing in the direction of

7 the bodies or was he walking away?

8 A. He was leaving from where the bodies were.

9 Q. Thank you. So you -- you went back to the narrow alley-way and

10 you made a dot on the map here.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you -- could you see down into the direction of the pizzeria

13 at any time?

14 A. At that moment we couldn't see because this is a narrow

15 passageway. The pizzeria is from the other side.

16 Q. At --

17 MR. MARCUSSEN: The witness has just made a line to indicate where

18 the pizzeria is around the corner.

19 Q. So where you were now at this point in time, what did you do?

20 A. First we drank up the two bottles of liquor so that I would calm

21 down, and my colleagues drank as well. We drank up quickly, and then

22 Cukaric smashed a shop window belonging to the pizzeria using his

23 rifle-butt and he threw in a hand-grenade.

24 Q. Let me just break this series of events up in some smaller pieces

25 with you. Who were you -- you was together with a number of people you

Page 3952

1 said and you were drinking the liquor. Who were you with?

2 A. Sladjan Cukaric, Radovan Tanovic, Miki Petkovic, and myself.

3 Q. And you all had something to drink from the bottles. Is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And was it -- were you drinking from the two bottles you had

7 collected or had other people collected bottles as well?

8 A. No, we drank from the bottle I had brought.

9 Q. You then described that you saw Cukaric smash the window to the

10 pizzeria. When you saw that, when were you standing?

11 A. I was still here at the corner that I just marked. We were

12 standing there all the while.

13 Q. Okay. So later when we look at this picture we need to be able to

14 recognise this. Could I ask you to mark an A at the approximate location

15 of the corner where you were standing?

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. From the corner where you were standing, could you see down in the

18 direction of the pizzeria?

19 A. At that moment I couldn't because I tried to take cover because of

20 the hand-grenade that he was about to throw.

21 Q. Did you see the window being smashed by -- did you see the window

22 break and being smashed, did you see the person making that movement?

23 A. No, not at that moment. I only heard the glass being broken, and

24 later on I heard the explosion.

25 Q. Who do you say threw in the grenade?

Page 3953

1 A. The hand-grenade was -- the first hand-grenade was thrown by

2 Sladjan Cukaric.

3 Q. How do you know that? Did you see it, see him throw in the

4 hand-grenade or prepare to throw in the hand-grenade?

5 A. Well, first he took out a hand-grenade and started moving towards

6 the shop window, getting ready to throw it. And he told us to take cover

7 so that we wouldn't be hurt by any of the shrapnel.

8 Q. After the hand-grenade had exploded, what happened?

9 A. We waited for two or three minutes for everything to calm down,

10 and then a second hand-grenade was thrown.

11 Q. Do you know who threw the second hand-grenade?

12 A. The second hand-grenade was thrown by Radovan Tanovic.

13 Q. And how do you know that?

14 A. Because he was getting ready for another attack.

15 Q. Between the two hand-grenades, was there any shooting coming down

16 from the direction of the pizzeria?

17 A. While we were waiting for everything to settle after the first

18 grenade, to have the smoke cleared, after that Tanovic and Cukaric took

19 turns. They used bursts of fire from their automatic rifles, shooting.

20 Q. And then the second grenade was thrown in, and was there then

21 shooting after that?

22 A. There was firing from automatic rifles. I said that. They used

23 bursts of fire, and one could still hear screams and moaning.

24 Q. Did you participate in the shooting?

25 A. No, I didn't.

Page 3954

1 Q. Were you asked to participate in the shooting?

2 A. I was asked if I wanted to participate, but since they realised I

3 was in no condition to do that, they didn't force me to. I was kind of

4 lost.

5 Q. Who -- who were "they"? You referred to somebody.

6 A. Cukaric and Tanovic?

7 Q. Did you -- you described being up in the area of the corner that

8 you have marked with an A and then there were the hand-grenade and the

9 shooting and the hand-grenade and the shooting. After that, did you --

10 did it become quiet in the pizzeria?

11 A. Yes, it did.

12 Q. And did you move from the corner where you had been standing?

13 A. I moved. I passed by the pizzeria. I went as far as the kiosk

14 here, next to the road, here.

15 Q. And did you stay there?

16 A. Yes, I stayed there throughout until the team arrived.

17 Q. Did --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Did we get a mark for where the corner of the --

19 where the kiosk was?

20 MR. MARCUSSEN: No, we only have a dot. I was going to get to --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is the dot?


23 Q. Would you mark a B, please, at the place where you took up

24 position.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 3955

1 Q. Thank you. Were you instructed to take up that position or did

2 you just go there on your own?

3 A. No. I was told to stay there and see -- or rather, to prevent

4 people coming close to the pizzeria so that they wouldn't see what was

5 happening. As for Miki Petkovic, he stayed up where we were -- where we

6 had been previously, next to the letter A.

7 Q. Who told you to take up the position at the point B you have

8 marked?

9 A. Sladjan Cukaric.

10 Q. I need to go back a little bit in time. Before the first grenade

11 was thrown in and you were up in the -- in the area of where you put the

12 A, were there anybody communicating on the radio at that point in time

13 among the people you were with?

14 A. I couldn't hear anything precisely. All I know is Cukaric had two

15 Motorolas. As for who he communicated with, I really couldn't hear, I

16 can't say. I don't know whether he talked to anyone or whether he

17 received any orders.

18 Q. But you did see him use his radio?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Did he use -- if you know, did he use one or both of the radios?

21 I think you said he had two.

22 A. He had two, but I don't know which one he used exactly. I can't

23 recall.

24 Q. Thank you. When you were -- I'm going back -- sorry, I forgot to

25 ask you this when we were at the right place in the chronology. Now I'd

Page 3956

1 like to take you back to the point when you were at point B. When you

2 took up position at point B, what did you see -- could you describe what

3 you were seeing when you were up there?

4 A. A truck arrived from the direction of Prizren. But before the

5 truck, Dr. Boban was already there, together with Djordjevic. I can't

6 remember his first name. So before the truck, Dr. Boban and the staff

7 commander Djordjevic had arrived.

8 Q. Do you know the family name of Dr. Boban?

9 A. Vuksanovic.

10 Q. And do you -- what -- what -- what position did he hold, do you

11 know?

12 A. Well, he commanded the civil protection.

13 Q. And Djordjevic, what position did he have?

14 A. Djordjevic was commander of the TO.

15 Q. Is that the Territorial Defence?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. How -- approximately how long after you had come down to point B

18 did it take before Vuksanovic and Djordjevic came?

19 A. After 15 to 20 minutes.

20 Q. And then you explained a truck came. How long after Vuksanovic

21 and Djordjevic did it take before the truck arrived?

22 A. The truck arrived some half an hour later, from the direction of

23 Prizren.

24 Q. On this photograph, is the direction of Prizren, is that left or

25 right?

Page 3957

1 A. To the left.

2 Q. Do you know what organisation or unit the truck belonged to?

3 A. The truck was some civilian truck. I don't know what

4 organisation. It didn't have any special markings or something like that.

5 Q. Were there any -- apart from the driver, were there anybody in the

6 truck?

7 A. There were three of them.

8 Q. Do you know who they were?

9 A. I don't know. That was the first time I saw these people.

10 Q. Do you know what function they -- they had when they were not --

11 before this day, do you know what these people were doing?

12 A. I didn't understand.

13 Q. Did they work for anybody, for the Territorial Defence, for the

14 civilian -- for civilian protection, something like that, do you know?

15 A. These people who came on that day, I don't know whether they

16 worked for some organisation. That was the first time I saw these people

17 in that truck, over there, in Suva Reka.

18 Q. What happened when the truck arrived? Where did it park?

19 A. It parked here, this entrance here that I marked with a B a few

20 minutes ago. So it backed off here and then it practically got to the

21 pizzeria itself.

22 Q. Then what happened?

23 A. Then a team came from the civilian protection to load the bodies.

24 Q. How do you know the team that came were from the civilian

25 protection?

Page 3958

1 A. Well, they had the clothes that civilian protection people wear.

2 Q. And when the civilian protection people came, what did they do?

3 A. Well, at first they didn't know. Dr. Boban Vuksanovic got these

4 people from their lunch. It was lunchtime, and these people previously

5 were herding cattle and they were trying to get this cattle on to a truck,

6 but these people didn't know what they were supposed to do on that day at

7 all, that day when Dr. Boban Vuksanovic called them.

8 Q. Having arrived at the pizzeria, what did they -- what did they do?

9 A. Well, they all started running away. No one wanted to do this,

10 you know, when they saw the blood -- well, first of all, these were

11 people, say, 50 years old, 60 years old, to the age of 15, actually. They

12 were children. They felt nauseous. They couldn't do that.

13 Q. Did they -- were they forced to do it nonetheless, take the bodies

14 out?

15 A. Afterwards Cukaric took over the command and said: Who doesn't

16 want to load these bodies is going to end up the same way as those

17 corpses, the people who had been killed.

18 Q. And so the young and the elderly men who had come that you

19 described from the civil protection, they loaded the bodies on to the

20 truck. And could you see when they were loading the bodies?

21 A. Well, yes. Once I sort of cast a glance, sort of. It was an ugly

22 scene.

23 Q. When the truck was full, I take it that it left. What direction

24 did it go in?

25 A. Again, it went back to Prizren. It went in the direction of

Page 3959

1 Prizren. It came from Prizren and went back to Prizren.

2 Q. Did another truck come?

3 A. Yes, immediately after that one another truck came.

4 Q. And did they continue to load bodies on that truck?

5 A. Yes, they did.

6 Q. Do you know a gentleman called Jashar Berisha?

7 A. Yes. Mr. Jashar Berisha worked for many years at the gasoline

8 station in Suva Reka. I know him. I know him as a person.

9 Q. Did you see him around this time?

10 A. Well, on that day -- well, he worked at the gasoline station, but

11 when this gun-fire started he was detained up there at the SUP.

12 Q. Did you see him being detained?

13 A. I didn't see him being detained, but I know that he worked and

14 that he was there until the gun-fire started. Once the gun-fire started,

15 he was no longer there. I thought that he went home; however, he was up

16 there at the SUP, at the police station. And he was brought in from the

17 police station. He was brought in, in a vehicle, to the pizzeria.

18 Q. Can you see the petrol station on this photograph?

19 A. Yes, I can.

20 Q. Did you go over to the petrol station close to where the pumps

21 are, and I think there's an office or something behind -- previous to this

22 day, had you been over there after the shooting had started?

23 A. No, I didn't go.

24 Q. When you saw Jashar Berisha, you say he came from the direction of

25 the police station. How did he arrive?

Page 3960

1 A. He was brought in by the patrol to the pizzeria, that is.

2 Q. Did you know any of the officers who brought him in?

3 A. I don't know. I just remember Todor Jovanovic from then. I

4 cannot remember all those names now, of all the people who were in the

5 car.

6 Q. So am I correct, you -- you infer from the fact that -- that

7 Jashar Berisha came in a car from the police station that he must have

8 been detained when -- when the shooting started, but you didn't actually

9 see him being detained. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honour, we had indicated that we were going

12 to spend an hour and a half with this witness. I have already hit an hour

13 and 35 minutes. I only have another five minutes. I hope that will be

14 permissible.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


17 Q. K83, after Jashar Berisha had arrived, what happened?

18 A. Jashar Berisha got out of the official vehicle and he had already

19 seen that truck, where the corpses were being loaded. And he was

20 struggling. He didn't want to go towards the truck. And he just said

21 that he didn't deserve that, to go there to the pizzeria.

22 Q. Did you -- so you were watching as he was going down in the

23 direction of the truck?

24 A. Oh, yes. I was right there by the road, by the kiosk. That's

25 where the vehicle had stopped, and he got out of that vehicle and they

Page 3961

1 were dragging him there to the pizzeria.

2 Q. And so you remember him saying that he didn't deserve that?

3 A. Yes. He was speaking to Dr. Boban Vuksanovic personally.

4 Q. Then what happened?

5 A. Since he was struggling to break free, in a way he was trying to

6 run away, to get out of that, but Cukaric just grabbed his arm, pushed him

7 away, and fired a burst of gun-fire from his automatic rifle into the

8 man's back.

9 Q. And you saw Cukaric shoot at Jashar Berisha?

10 A. Well, I'm not the only one who saw it. People from the

11 municipality saw it, too, who were in the municipality and people from the

12 Territorial Defence. Many people saw that scene and saw what he did on

13 that day.

14 Q. Do you know what they did to his body after he had been shot?

15 A. I think that it was also loaded on to the truck.

16 Q. When all the -- this was over and the second truck left, what

17 direction did it take off in?

18 A. Likewise, the direction of Prizren.

19 Q. After it was all over, did you go to your home?

20 A. I stayed with those people from the civilian protection because

21 Cukaric was forcing them to put sand and soil into the pizzeria so that

22 the blood stains would not remain there; however, there wasn't any sand

23 and they couldn't -- couldn't do that.

24 Q. When -- when that couldn't be cleaned up with sand and earth, did

25 Cukaric doing anything?

Page 3962

1 A. Cukaric went -- well, now I can't remember, was it with the

2 commanders or these other people. He left. Tanovic stayed there and just

3 set fire to this curtain that was next to the shop window. And there was

4 nothing else inside that could burn; everything was made of metal.

5 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'd like that if we could make what we have on the

6 screen now an exhibit.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC49, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 MR. MARCUSSEN: And then could we see Exhibit P117, page 2,

10 please.

11 Q. K83, is this the place you referred to as the pizzeria?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. After the civil protection people had tried to clean up and

14 the curtains had been burned, did you return to your home that evening?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did -- on a later occasion, did you go -- another day did you go

17 back to the house of the Berishas, together with a team of investigators?

18 A. Well, the next day -- well, regular activities. I mean, well the

19 next day at work -- well, that's to say we started working and we had to

20 show the civil defence team where these bodies were, and those bodies were

21 supposed to be collected because it was summertime and ...

22 Q. Who directed you to go and show where the bodies were?

23 A. I cannot remember exactly now.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen, which bodies are we talking about

25 now?

Page 3963


2 Q. K83, apart from the civil defence people, were there any -- were

3 there any investigators -- was an investigation carried out before the

4 bodies were moved?

5 A. Yes. There were people who were crime scene technicians taking

6 pictures of that, photographing that. Do you understand what I'm saying?

7 They were loaded on to a truck and they were buried under some kind of

8 codes.

9 Q. Do you remember the name of any of the crime scene technicians and

10 where they came from?

11 A. Well, I remember because Todor Jovanovic worked there in Suva Reka

12 and some came from Prizren. I remember some Mojsic, but I don't know his

13 first name exactly and this other colleague of his. I don't know, I don't

14 know his name.

15 Q. Where did you -- what location did you first go to when the bodies

16 were to be collected?

17 A. Well, first we went to the house where the Berishas were --

18 rather, we called it the OSCE house. First them, there were four men

19 there. The next day there was the corpse of a woman there, too, a woman

20 of 50 or 60.

21 Q. Did you -- did you see the bodies?

22 A. Yes, I saw the bodies. The woman, her leg and part of her arm had

23 been burned. I don't know how. I didn't see the woman that day, but I

24 don't know how she came to be there on the following day.

25 Q. After -- after you had been at the OSCE house, did you continue to

Page 3964

1 other locations in Suva Reka with the same team?

2 A. Well, yes. We went on to -- well, to the SUP and then towards

3 Restane to see whether there were some other corpses left in some houses.

4 We found other corpses along the way in other houses. For the most part

5 they were men.

6 Q. If you know, do you know how they died? I mean, have they been

7 killed by gun-fire? How did they die, do you know?

8 A. Well, they had been killed. Now, how, I didn't see.

9 Q. You said you went up along the Restane road. Is that -- you

10 basically followed the same road that the Cegar units had been taking. Is

11 that what you're saying?

12 A. Yes, yes. Because they had passed there and we wanted to check

13 whether there were any corpses left there, because it was summertime and

14 we didn't want a disease to spread or something like that.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, I may have missed that. Was there evidence

16 that they went along the Restane road?

17 MR. MARCUSSEN: I believe that yesterday the witness testified

18 that they were following up that way, but otherwise we can just clarify

19 that.

20 Q. K83, if you could think back at the day when you were at the

21 Berisha house, again when you had been at the house of the Berishas or the

22 OSCE house, there were the Cegar units and there were people from the SUP.

23 The operation that the Cegar unit was involved in, in what direction did

24 that operation go?

25 A. Well, as for the surrounding houses, that is to say these houses

Page 3965

1 along the Restane road, I mean well they took that road.

2 Q. Did you -- did you see them move out in that direction; is that

3 what you're saying?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: We're talking about the same day, are we? Because

6 we had evidence yesterday about battles going on, on the road to Restane,

7 about 3 to 5 kilometres from Suva Reka and so forth, terrorist attacks; we

8 had that sort of evidence. But did we have evidence that this unit had

9 gone along that road?

10 MR. MARCUSSEN: You're -- I could be mistaken. As I refresh my

11 memory the evidence we got yesterday --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Every killing that we have so far heard of from

13 this witness, as far as I have recorded it - and of course that may be

14 incomplete - every one seems to be said the responsibility of Cukaric and

15 the other colleagues or colleague mainly who was with him. I don't know

16 that I have -- I have a record of the Cegar group shooting at random at

17 the outset of this incident, but no indication from this witness of any

18 deaths resulting from that.

19 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think that's going -- the witness's evidence is

20 that the Cegar units when the up along the Restane road. The witness

21 don't know, as I am aware at least, that the Cegar units killed anyone.

22 The witness's evidence also is that the following day they, people from

23 the SUP and crime scene investigators, went up the Restane road and they

24 found more bodies. We would make submissions on that later, but I think

25 that is what the evidence is so far. I can try to clarify this with the

Page 3966

1 witness if it would assist, but we are not trying to state the evidence

2 any higher than what I've just said.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm simply saying to you that I don't have a

4 note of the evidence that you seem to be relying on that -- to the effect

5 that they went along that road. And it may be I haven't noted it, but I

6 don't recollect it either.


8 Q. K83, on the day that the incident took place at the OSCE house, to

9 your knowledge did the Cegar unit continue up along the road towards

10 Restane?

11 A. Yes. They continued up along the rode road towards Restane.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. MARCUSSEN: And, Your Honours, that concludes our questions at

14 this stage. Thank you.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We'll have a break now.

16 You should stay where you are while the court rises, and then

17 someone will make arrangements to show you where to wait during our break.

18 We'll break now for 30 minutes and resume at 11.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Private session again while the witness enters

22 court.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan, meanwhile you could perhaps tell me

24 the running order.

25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, Your Honour. General Pavkovic, General

Page 3967

1 Lukic, General Ojdanic, Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Milutinovic, and General

2 Lazarevic.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 [Closed session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session].

9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: K83, you will now be examined by various counsel

11 for the accused, and the first of these will be for Mr. Pavkovic, and that

12 will be Mr. Ackerman.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

15 Q. Sir, I have just a couple of questions. It will be very brief.

16 During these events you have just described that took place in Suva Reka,

17 it's the case, isn't it, that there was no army presence in Suva Reka at

18 that time?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. With regard to these two people you talked about who arrived on

21 the scene after these killings, Djordjevic and Dr. Boban Vuksanovic, do

22 you know what happened to them after that day?

23 A. I don't.

24 Q. You don't know that they were both killed?

25 A. Yes, I do know that.

Page 3968

1 Q. I have some indication that they were killed by the KLA. Can you

2 confirm that or not?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: That's all I have, Your Honour. Thank you.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 Mr. Ivetic.

7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

9 Q. Good day, sir. My name is Dan Ivetic, and I represent Mr. Sreten

10 Lukic, along with my colleagues, Branko Lukic and Ozren Ogrizovic relative

11 to these proceedings. Today I'm going to have to ask you some questions

12 relative to your testimony that you've just given to try and clarify and

13 better understand things. I would ask you to pay close attention to what

14 I am asking and try to give me the most accurate and concise answer

15 possible since our time here is limited and we have a number of things to

16 deal with. And due to the protective measures given to you I must call

17 you K83, so please remember if I do use that terminology I am referring to

18 you and I will proceed.

19 Now, first of all I would like to ask you a few questions to clear

20 up the structure and operation of the police station, that is to say the

21 OUP in Suva Reka, O-U-P. Now, first of all isn't it correct that the

22 public security division, the RJB, and the state security division, the

23 RDB, were separate structures with a separate hierarchy, separate computer

24 databases, and separate information channels within the OUP in Suva Reka?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 3969

1 Q. And as far as the state security or RDB presence in Suva Reka, is

2 it accurate to state that it was small and consisted of approximately two

3 persons or so during the time period of 1998 and 1999?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. And how big was the rest of the OUP in Suva Reka, that is to say

6 in terms of the regular and reserve policemen? How many of their -- them

7 were you assigned to the OUP?

8 A. I don't know the exact number.

9 Q. Okay. Is it accurate to state that a clear majority of the

10 persons in the -- operating in the OUP of Suva Reka were locals from the

11 Suva Reka municipality itself?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. Okay. And is it correct to state that the OUP of Suva Reka

14 actually fell under the jurisdiction of the SUP, S-U-P, or [B/C/S spoken]

15 of Prizren?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. Okay. And is it also accurate to state that in the course of

18 regular duties the OUP of Suva Reka would have to report to the SUP in

19 Prizren?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. Okay. And as far as you know, the OUP of Suva Reka would only

22 report to the SUP in Prizren and not to any other structures within the

23 MUP. Is that accurate?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. And you mentioned some crime scene investigators, an investigative

Page 3970

1 team that came out to Suva Reka and to the Berisha house with you the day

2 after the killings that you testified to. Was this investigative team

3 from the Prizren SUP?

4 A. Yes, it was.

5 Q. Okay. And if we can concentrate on the time-period that these --

6 that this investigative team was there, is it accurate to state that you

7 did not take this investigative team to the pizzeria location?

8 A. I didn't understand.

9 Q. The investigative team that came the day after the killings, it

10 was not taken to the pizzeria location, was it?

11 A. That is so.

12 Q. Okay. And on the occasion when this investigative team was at the

13 Berisha house where there was now the body also of a female, is it

14 accurate that upon that day the investigative team was shot upon by

15 weapons?

16 A. Not in the Berisha house. It was a bit further down towards

17 Restane where the bodies were buried at the cemetery.

18 Q. And am I correct that someone shot upon -- shot at the

19 investigative team --

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. And the investigative team, was it -- it was accompanied by

22 regularly marked MUP vehicles. Is that accurate?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. And you and the other MUP officials were wearing uniforms at the

25 time that were MUP uniforms. Is that accurate?

Page 3971

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. So that whoever shot at you was targeting persons that were

3 clearly identified as being the police. Is that accurate?

4 A. It is accurate.

5 Q. And you just mentioned the cemetery. Is it also accurate that

6 after the investigation the bodies that were found were buried in

7 single -- in individual graves, each grave marked?

8 A. Yes. Each body was marked with a code and they were buried

9 individually.

10 Q. And based upon your experience in the police force, was this

11 standard operating procedure for crime scene investigation and for burial

12 of bodies that were discovered?

13 A. Yes, it was.

14 Q. And had that been the standard operating procedure, even in the

15 years long before 1999?

16 A. Yes, it had.

17 Q. Okay. Now, the -- sometime in 2003, you were called in by the

18 police authorities to be interviewed relative to an investigation relating

19 to the events in Suva Reka. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And at that point in time, you gave your first statement to the

22 police authorities of the Republic of Serbia, detailing your account of

23 what had happened and who was responsible for it. Is that accurate?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. And that was part of an ongoing investigation at that point in

Page 3972

1 time. Subsequently, the judicial authorities undertook a judicial

2 prosecution of your colleagues who were involved in the event at Suva Reka

3 on March the 25th, 1999. Is that accurate?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to return back to finish up a few more

6 specific questions about the operation of the Suva Reka police station or

7 the OUP. First of all, we -- we would like to ask you about a man by the

8 name of Miskovic, who also was known as Nisevic with the first name Misko.

9 Now, was he -- strike that.

10 He was not the overall commander or head of all the MUP police in

11 Suva Reka, was he?

12 A. No, he wasn't the overall commander. He was not a commander.

13 Q. Thank you for clearing that up for me. In fact, this Miskovic or

14 Nisevic, in fact he was merely one of the two or three DB policemen, that

15 is to say the state security personnel in Suva Reka. Is that accurate?

16 A. It is, yes.

17 Q. And in fact, do you even know if this Miskovic or Nisevic, however

18 you want to refer to him, whether he held any rank in the structure?

19 A. No. He always wore civilian clothes, hence I don't know.

20 Q. Okay. And now this individual, this Miskovic or Nisevic, he was a

21 local from the town of Suva Reka. Isn't that accurate?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. And I believe you testified that he owned a hotel called the Hotel

24 Boss. Was this hotel located in Shiroko?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 3973

1 Q. And do you have any knowledge of an attack that occurred on

2 September the 12th, 1998, in this village of Shiroko during which

3 terrorists attacked the Hotel Boss that was owned by Mr. Miskovic or

4 Mr. Nisevic?

5 A. I don't know. I didn't see to what extent it was damaged, but I

6 did hear that a projectile was launched at the hotel.

7 Q. Okay. And -- and do you recall another event that occurred in

8 1998 in front of a trafika or a little shop in which someone shot at

9 Miskovic, Nisevic, and in fact, I think, wounded him and killed one other

10 person. Do you recall that event?

11 A. Yes, that is so. Misko stopped by the kiosk that day to by a

12 newspaper. From some 20 metres away, fire was opened with the intent of

13 killing him, but instead they killed the Albanian who was selling the

14 newspapers, whereas Misko was only wounded in his hand. It was not a

15 serious injury.

16 Q. Okay. And I believe you had -- had mentioned that this gentleman

17 usually wore civilian clothes. Do you know whether in fact he was wearing

18 civilian clothes on the day that this attack occurred?

19 A. Yes, I think so. He always wore civilian clothes. Neither before

20 the war or during the war, he did not have a uniform.

21 Q. And was this gentleman Nisevic, Miskovic, was he well-known in the

22 Suva Reka town by the general populace?

23 A. Everyone knew him, the Serbs, the Albanians, because he had a

24 driving school there and also the check-up of vehicles, that was his

25 business. He also had a hotel and a number of shops and so on and so

Page 3974

1 forth.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, we may return to some more questions about

3 this individual later. I'd like to focus now on some background

4 information relative to your experiences. Is it correct that you became a

5 police reservist in approximately 1994?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. And from 1994 to 1997, apart from your training as a reserve

8 police officer, did you have occasion to perform police duties in Suva

9 Reka municipality?

10 A. Yes, but that was seldom.

11 Q. Okay. And on the occasions - again, focussing on the years 1994

12 through 1997 - that you did perform police duties, is it a fact that you

13 would have a daily report with a Lieutenant Repanovic, who would give a

14 briefing to you and to the other police officers going on patrol?

15 A. Not me personally, since I was a reservist policeman, but heads of

16 patrols and professional policemen had to compile reports, also fill out

17 patrol forms. They had to type them out, and they needed to type out

18 reports as well.

19 Q. Okay.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that question may have been misunderstood

21 because of the use of the words "daily report."

22 MR. IVETIC: I think so as well, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you meant a briefing.

24 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.

25 Q. Did you ever participate in any briefing before going out on

Page 3975

1 patrol, and again during the years 1994 through 1997 first of all?

2 A. I don't understand. What do you mean by briefings?

3 Q. Prior to going out on a patrol, would someone from the police

4 station give you your daily assignments?

5 A. Yes, it was done by the leader of the shift.

6 Q. Okay. And during 1998 and 1999, did this same procedure remain in

7 place, this giving of daily assignments?

8 A. Yes, it did.

9 Q. And now, on the critical date in question, March 25th, 1999, when

10 you and your colleagues went to the Berisha house and the pizzeria, that

11 day you had not been given a daily assignment at the SUP to -- to

12 undertake what happened that day, did you?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. Okay. Now, let's -- let's go back to the time period before 1998

15 very briefly. You had mentioned some check-points that were in existence

16 in -- along the road outside Suva Reka. Is it true that these

17 check-points existed even in the year 1998?

18 A. Yes, they did exist.

19 Q. And was the primary purpose of these check-points to control

20 traffic and dissuade the armed terrorist elements from disrupting traffic

21 on the roadway?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. Now, prior to the year 1998, how was the situation in the Suva

24 Reka municipality? And that is to say was there a problem caused by the

25 presence of armed Albanian fighters, whether they went by any name or not?

Page 3976

1 A. Well, they -- at that time the OSCE was there and they monitored

2 all police movement. There was always a vehicle in front and another one

3 at the back, but when the attack took place both vehicles would drive off

4 and we would remain behind at their mercy. And once the firing stopped,

5 then they would come back and they would try and establish who opened

6 fire, who was wounded, and to see what took place.

7 Q. All right. I'm going to have to try and clarify that with you. I

8 had asked you about the time-period prior to 1998, but let's talk about

9 what you describe. You described the OSCE. The OSCE was there at the end

10 of 1998 and for the first few months of 1999. Is that accurate?

11 A. I believe so.

12 Q. And in -- in the answer you gave to the prior question you

13 said: "There was always a vehicle in front and another one at the back."

14 Is it accurate to state that those vehicles in the front and in the back

15 would be the OSCE vehicles?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then I take it the vehicles in the middle would be the regular

18 MUP patrol vehicles. Is that accurate?

19 A. Yes, it is accurate.

20 Q. And when you say that the vehicles would drive off and we would

21 remain behind at their mercy, who is the "they" at whose mercy the police

22 would be left at?

23 A. Well, the terrorists.

24 Q. Okay. And now -- now that we've cleared that up, I'd like to now

25 move to the original issue that I'd wanted to ask you about. Is it

Page 3977

1 correct that in 1998 things started changing for the worse in Suva Reka

2 town and municipality, and that is to say that from 1998 onwards the

3 terrorists began operating in Suva Reka municipality. Is that accurate?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. And in particular, among the things that started getting worse in

6 1998, is it accurate that persons started being kidnapped by these

7 terrorists from public buses in Suva Reka municipality?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. And is it accurate to state that from 1998 onwards, you were

10 essentially a full-time police officer within the OUP of Suva Reka?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. And now during that time-period, that is to say 1998 onwards, did

13 you have any knowledge or information that the persons being kidnapped by

14 these terrorists were in fact both ethnic Albanians and ethnic Serbs?

15 A. At first there were Albanians who were loyal citizens. They were

16 not kidnapped only but also killed, and the next day a corpse was found by

17 the road. As for the Serbs that had been kidnapped, they went missing and

18 none of them was ever found.

19 Q. Do you know approximately how many such incidents of either

20 kidnappings or killings of Suva Reka citizens by the terrorists occurred

21 in either 1998 or 1999?

22 A. Well, in Suva Reka there were four cases.

23 Q. And when you say "in Suva Reka," that would be in the town itself.

24 Is that accurate?

25 A. No, not the town itself, the surrounding area, 3 kilometres.

Page 3978

1 Q. Okay. And were there also -- you mentioned at least one instance

2 of an attack upon a police vehicle. Were there also multiple instances of

3 attacks by these terrorists in the Suva Reka region upon regular police

4 patrols or police buildings or police personnel?

5 A. Well, yes. Practical every time there was any kind of movement,

6 any kind of departure from the SUP building, they regularly monitored

7 this. And whenever the patrol would leave the SUP, it would be attacked.

8 For the most part, people would get wounded, but there were even

9 fatalities.

10 Q. And these fatalities and woundings, were these what you had

11 referenced earlier as to reasons why the police force did not have

12 sufficient personnel as of 1998? Was that one of the reasons people were

13 even leaving or the police force did not have enough personnel?

14 A. Yes, they were afraid. They didn't want to get killed, and they

15 would leave the service and go to their homes in Serbia.

16 Q. Okay. Now, do you know of an instance -- strike that.

17 Do you know of a killing of an Albanian policeman from the Suva

18 Reka state security organ at the hands of the KLA?

19 A. Yes, yes. It was Iljaz, I don't know his last name, Iljaz, Iljaz,

20 he worked in the DB. He was killed in his very own home.

21 Q. Okay. Now, did you know at the time where the KLA terrorists were

22 situated, that is to say from what areas or villages they were based in

23 the Suva Reka municipality?

24 A. Well, for the most part towards Budakovo, Gornji Kruscica,

25 Malisevo. I don't know. There's quite a few of these places of theirs.

Page 3979

1 Q. And when you say there's quite a few of these places of theirs,

2 would it be accurate to state that the terrorists held these regions so

3 that regular police patrols dared not even enter that territory?

4 A. Well, in the municipality of Suva Reka there was 5 per cent of

5 Serbs, that is to say that 95 per cent were Albanians. So Serbs could not

6 cover all these territories. They didn't have enough personnel for all of

7 that, to keep it blocked.

8 Q. Okay. And was there even some reported terrorist activity within

9 the town of Suva Reka itself?

10 A. I didn't understand. Could you repeat the question, if you can?

11 Q. Sure. Let me perhaps rephrase it. Were there even areas of Suva

12 Reka town itself that were not safe for police patrols to go through

13 because of the threat posed by terrorists in the area?

14 A. Well, there was danger. There were cases when a Serb would get

15 killed, a Serb who worked in a shop, in broad daylight at 10.00, at the

16 work-place, in the centre of town.

17 Q. All right. Now, let me ask you if you recall an instance with

18 a -- with a number of such fatalities that occurred on or about January

19 8th, 1999, when there was an attack by the terrorists from the direction

20 of Dulje upon a patrol on the road that left three policemen dead, four

21 policemen wounded, and three Albanian civilians also wounded because they

22 happened to be driving near the patrol. Do you recall that?

23 A. Yes, I remember that.

24 Q. And now, were the killed and wounded policemen from this and other

25 instance -- let's talk about this instance in particular, were these

Page 3980

1 killed and wounded locals from Suva Reka?

2 A. Well, no. They came here for periods of three years to work

3 there, and then they just stayed there.

4 Q. Okay. And with respect to this and other incidents where the

5 terrorists attacked or killed or wounded policemen or other individuals,

6 how would the local Serb population react after these incidents?

7 A. Well, they were scared, what else?

8 Q. Do you recall an incident involving an OSCE vehicle and some Serb

9 civilians?

10 A. Yes, I remember. On that day, that vehicle hit an elderly woman,

11 and the vehicle didn't want to stop.

12 Q. And was there a local reaction or back-lash against the OSCE and

13 those local persons working with the OSCE as a result of this incident?

14 A. Well, they expected the OSCE to calm things down, but the OSCE

15 was - how should I put this? - more and more on the side of the

16 terrorists. They were helping them more than they were calming the

17 situation down.

18 Q. And is that how the rest of the local Serb population viewed the

19 presence of the OSCE when they were in Suva Reka?

20 A. I didn't really understand that.

21 Q. What you just described, were those personal feelings or were they

22 the sentiment of the local Serb civilians, as you viewed them or as you

23 witnessed?

24 A. Well, there were some individuals and -- I mean, well civilians.

25 Q. Okay. Now, when the OSCE first came to Suva Reka, is it correct

Page 3981

1 that they stayed at the hotel owned and operated by this Misko Miskovic or

2 Nisevic, the Hotel Boss?

3 A. Yes, yes, that's true.

4 Q. And is it correct that apart from the OSCE presence, this Hotel

5 Boss didn't have any other paying customers at that time?

6 A. No, there wasn't anyone except for the OSCE.

7 Q. Okay. And these OSCE vehicles, during the time that they were

8 residing at the Nisevic hotel, did they in fact also obtain their fuel for

9 their vehicles from another business enterprise owned by this Nisevic?

10 A. Nisevic didn't have a gasoline station. I don't know where they

11 got their fuel.

12 Q. Okay. Now, at some point in time the OSCE moved out of this hotel

13 and moved into the Berisha family compound, and their entire operation

14 moved with them. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes, correct.

16 Q. And do you know whether the Berisha family had a petrol station or

17 a fuel depot?

18 A. Well, it was only Jashar Berisha who worked at this gasoline

19 station. It's only possible that they -- that he could have helped them

20 in some way. I really don't know except for this Berisha who worked at

21 the gasoline station.

22 Q. Okay. Now -- now, after the OSCE mission left the Suva Reka area

23 and when the NATO planes began their attack on Kosovo-Metohija and the

24 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, how did the local Serb community react to

25 the NATO attacks?

Page 3982

1 A. Well, they were scared.

2 Q. And what kind of atmosphere or interaction existed between the

3 local Serbs and the local Albanians during this time-period after NATO

4 attacked?

5 A. I didn't understand you. After what attack?

6 Q. After the NATO -- after NATO started bombing the country.

7 A. Well, Serbs stayed where they were, but Albanians started fleeing,

8 like going away.

9 Q. Okay. Now, were there -- were there outages of the power, water,

10 and other utilities during the period of the NATO bombardment?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Are we talking here about Suva Reka or are these

13 general statements that could be anywhere in the Republic of Serbia?

14 MR. IVETIC: My question was meant to be related to Suva Reka. I

15 see that I did not limit it to that, so --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: The -- have you in fact established yet that NATO

17 bombed anywhere near Suva Reka?

18 MR. IVETIC: I have not, and I don't know whether the outages are

19 related to the NATO bombing.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: See, these general answers to these very general

21 questions we do not find of any assistance to us.

22 MR. IVETIC: Well, then I will move along to specific matters in

23 the area of Suva Reka.

24 Q. Now, sir, did you hear about the bombing and destruction of the

25 police building in Prizren around the 25th of March, 1999, by NATO

Page 3983

1 aviation?

2 A. I didn't see that but I heard it.

3 Q. And did you hear about casualties from this NATO attack,

4 particularly the deaths of two policemen including one local reservist and

5 one member of the PAP -- PJP stationed in the municipality?

6 A. No, no, I didn't know these people. I heard they got killed,

7 but ...

8 Q. And do you know or have knowledge of a factory in Suva Reka

9 itself --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move on to that. Can you help us with

11 the date? Around the 25th of March is imprecise, but can you be any more

12 precise?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really do not remember the date.

14 I've already said that.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Was it -- do you know if it was before or after the

16 Berisha killing?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think after.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 Mr. Ivetic.


21 Q. Thank you, sir. With respect -- I had asked you also about

22 whether you had any knowledge of a factory in Suva Reka itself that had

23 been bombarded by the NATO aircraft?

24 A. I worked in this factory. I don't know whether it was bombed,

25 this factory.

Page 3984

1 Q. Okay. Well, after the destruction of the Prizren police building,

2 is it accurate that the communications within the police force were

3 severely disrupted, including the computer database links between various

4 police structures?

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

6 MR. MARCUSSEN: I don't believe the witness was in Prizren, so if

7 the -- it's a question about the SUP and the functioning of the SUP in

8 Prizren, I would object to that question.

9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the -- we've already heard that the OUP in

11 Suva Reka was answerable to the SUP in Prizren, and therefore

12 communications between the two the witness may know about. So I think the

13 evidence is within the -- the question is within the compass of his

14 knowledge.

15 MR. IVETIC: If he knows, of course; he may not know.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, yes. There was a

17 break-down in communications because of electricity for a while. It

18 wasn't that it was -- well, say four or five days.


20 Q. All right. And now during the period of March through May 1999,

21 are you aware or do you have knowledge of local civilians, including both

22 Serbs and non-Serbs, that were arrested by the Serbian police in Suva Reka

23 for looting private homes in Suva Reka?

24 A. I didn't understand this. Could you repeat it once again.

25 Q. Sure. Do you know of local civilians from Suva Reka who were

Page 3985

1 arrested for looting homes in Suva Reka, that is stealing from homes

2 that -- and causing damage, during the time-period of March 1999 through

3 May 1999?

4 A. Yes, that's correct. They were detained and arrested during the

5 bombing, too. They were in prison during the bombing in Prizren.

6 Q. And these persons that were arrested in Suva Reka and imprisoned

7 in Prizren, were -- did they include both ethnic Serbs and persons of

8 other nationalities, including ethnic Albanians?

9 A. Well, for the most part they were Serbs.

10 Q. Okay. Now --

11 MR. IVETIC: One moment, please.

12 Q. Now, we could ask about one more incident that occurred during the

13 month of March. Do you recall any incident at the Balkan Bet shop in the

14 commercial area of Suva Reka on or about the 22nd of March, where a

15 civilian, Bogdan Lazic, was killed or -- attacked and killed by

16 terrorists?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And was this Lazic a local of Suva Reka?

19 A. He was from the village of Sopina, that is to say 3 kilometres

20 away from Suva Reka. That's where he lived.

21 Q. And did he have any -- strike that.

22 Did he come from a -- from a large family?

23 A. I didn't understand that.

24 Q. No, it's -- I'll just move on. It's not that relevant.

25 Now, if we could move to the date when you stated that the Berisha

Page 3986

1 killings occurred, and if I could direct your attention first of all to

2 the period in time when the lorries were being -- when the -- when the

3 Cegar units were disembarking from their lorries. First of all, you

4 stated that you had ran in that direction. How did the Cegar unit -- how

5 did they travel in the direction that they were travelling? Were they in

6 or on foot?

7 A. They were on foot, and they were spread out. That is to say that

8 there was a distance of 5 to 6 metres between them, respectively, as they

9 moved towards the houses.

10 Q. And on that day, did you have knowledge of any combat operations

11 taking place towards or around the Restane area, between the terrorists

12 and the Serbian forces?

13 A. Well, this happened every day, but I mean I -- well, as for Suva

14 Reka and in the perimeter of, say, 2 or 3 kilometres I always moved about

15 there, but I could not see everything that was going on in the field.

16 Q. Okay.

17 MR. IVETIC: At this time I would ask the usher to put up IC47, I

18 believe it is, and I'll have a question or two relating to this exhibit.

19 Q. Sir, if I could direct your attention to the screen in front of

20 you. This is the exhibit -- one of the exhibits you marked earlier today,

21 and I want to ask you about the house you were located at this position D.

22 Am I correct that only you and your three colleagues were in the area of

23 this house near D at that time?

24 A. Not three, four.

25 Q. Four including yourself, that's what I meant.

Page 3987

1 Now, am I also accurate --

2 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 Am I also accurate that the units you described as the Cegar

5 units, that they were not -- they were not near this house. Is that

6 correct? You were there alone.

7 A. They were not in those two houses where we were. They were in

8 these other houses by this house D and E, and to the left and to the

9 right, that is to say they were ...

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Have you completed that answer?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that we were in houses D and

12 E, and the Cegars were in the other houses around these houses.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 Mr. Ivetic.


16 Q. Would it be possible for you to indicate on this photograph the

17 direction in which the Cegar unit was heading.

18 MR. IVETIC: And perhaps -- is it possible to do a different

19 colour so it can be distinguished from these markings.

20 Q. If you could show us the general direction in which the Cegar unit

21 proceeded.

22 A. Well, what can I do? I don't know. They started here, then here,

23 and along this way and in this direction. This was their movement.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you.

25 MR. IVETIC: Can we have that saved as the next available number?

Page 3988

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC50, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


4 Q. Okay. Now, I believe you stated in your direct examination that

5 you were -- that you were all going along lost. You really didn't know

6 where you were going or what you were doing. Is that accurate?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. And is it your impression that the other individuals with you were

9 in the same state of mind?

10 A. Well, I don't know as for others, but when the assistant commander

11 set out, he reached a particular house and then he ran away. He left us

12 there by ourselves. So what can I add to that? If he ran away and he was

13 the person to issue commands, he fled and I stayed behind.

14 Q. Did he flee before Cukaric and Tanovic began shooting the four men

15 behind the house?

16 A. He fled as soon as we arrived at that house when he heard firing

17 from all directions; that's when he fled.

18 Q. Okay. And so I can -- am I correct then that this was before

19 Tanovic and Cukaric shot and killed the four individuals?

20 A. Yes, you're right.

21 Q. And -- now, prior to this incident your patrol had not personally

22 taken part in any actions or activities with this Cegar unit, did you?

23 A. No, it didn't take part.

24 Q. And -- and would it be accurate to state that you did not hear or

25 have knowledge of any command or order given to your patrol to kill anyone

Page 3989

1 on that day?

2 A. Well, gentlemen, I can tell you what happened. We were in front

3 of the building and we were observing what they were doing, but once Cegar

4 1 arrived he addressed the assistant commander and he just said: Get

5 going. It wasn't our task and our job to do that with him. Had it not

6 been for him, I don't think anything in the pizzeria would have happened

7 or anything of that nature.

8 Q. But this gentleman, this Cegar 1, at no point in time did he tell

9 the -- you or the other individuals that were with you in front of the

10 SUP, at no time did he tell you: Go out and kill people, did he?

11 A. He didn't. He didn't say anything. He only told the assistant

12 commander: Get going with your men.

13 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to the men that were with you, the other

14 fellows in your patrol, were they all locals from Suva Reka?

15 A. Only one person was from Suva Reka. The others were from

16 elsewhere, say Uzice and so on and so forth.

17 Q. Had all of them been serving in the Suva Reka SUP for some time

18 prior to this incident -- pardon me, I meant OUP?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Okay. Now -- and another area I'd like to clear up from your

21 examination testimony, you stated when at the pizzeria Jashari Berisha was

22 brought. And I think you clarified that you do not have actual knowledge

23 of whether he was at the OUP building or not. Is that accurate?

24 A. Well, I saw him being brought from that direction, from the SUP

25 building. I could see the road they took; that's where I was standing.

Page 3990

1 It's a proper road and you can see far ahead, and this was less than 200

2 metres away. He was brought there from that building. I'm pretty sure

3 about that.

4 Q. Is the petrol station where Mr. Berisha worked also in that

5 direction?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Okay. And now you indicated that you and your fellow colleagues

8 that day drank some alcohol, two bottles to be precise. Was -- am I

9 correct that all that alcohol was consumed prior to any shooting into the

10 pizzeria or any grenades, rucne bombe, being thrown into the pizzeria?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you have an approximate time that it took for the four of you

13 to consume two bottles of alcohol?

14 A. Well, we drank it up like water so that we could relax.

15 Q. Do you --

16 MR. IVETIC: One moment.

17 Q. Do you recall the -- do you recall the volume of the bottles,

18 that is to say whether these were 1 litre bottles of liquor?

19 A. These were 1 litre bottles, yes.

20 Q. Okay.

21 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Let me just see. I might have a couple more

22 questions. Allow me a moment to review my notes.

23 Your Honours, I think I'm completed with this witness?

24 Q. Thank you, sir.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just before you sit down, is there any help

Page 3991

1 you can give us with the command structure within that police office?

2 There was a measure of confusion yesterday about the positions held by

3 certain people. Repanovic was said to be the head of the uniformed branch

4 at Vitosevic was said to be the head of the criminal investigation branch.

5 And it was vague who was in charge of the whole office. Can you assist on

6 that and clarify on any of these?

7 MR. IVETIC: I can. I don't know whether I should be testifying.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Excuse me?

9 MR. IVETIC: I can. I don't know whether I should be testifying.

10 I can ask the witness, perhaps.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: If you can through the facility you have for

12 leading questions, clarify what the witness told us yesterday.

13 MR. IVETIC: Yes. I will try to, Your Honour, and I hope my

14 colleagues -- I hope I'm not using up too much of their time, but I will

15 endeavour to do so.

16 Q. Mr. K83, with respect to the OUP of Suva Reka, is it correct that

17 the overall commander of this police station was Vitosevic?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. And do you recall what rank Vitosevic held?

20 A. I don't -- I don't know.

21 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned Repanovic. Is it correct that Repanovic

22 was merely a lieutenant within the structure of the OUP of Suva Reka?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. Okay. And was Vitosevic's rank higher than Repanovic's?

25 A. I can't say, but he was -- he must have been of higher rank, him

Page 3992

1 being the head of the SUP.

2 Q. Okay. And now the other individual you named Nenad Jovanovic, am

3 I correct that his post of -- I don't -- I think he was an assistant or --

4 rather than a deputy commander. Am I correct that that was the lowest

5 police superior officer position within the structure of the Suva Reka OUP

6 at the time, that is to say the lowest staresina [phoen] position within

7 the OUP?

8 A. Yes, that is so.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that clarifies the position, Mr. Ivetic.

10 MR. IVETIC: Okay. I would just have one -- one or two more just

11 to clarify --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. On you go.


14 Q. And in fact in -- strike that.

15 Am I correct that superior to Jovanovic in the hierarchy of the

16 Suva Reka OUP, there was in addition to Repanovic another individual named

17 Borisavljevic and that all these -- these two persons had positions

18 superior to Jovanovic but inferior to Vitosevic, who was the chief of the

19 OUP?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. Okay. And the -- am I correct that the RDB that Mr. Nisevic was a

22 part of, that was not formally a part of the OUP; they were a separate

23 structure?

24 A. Yes. His office was in the SUP building, but the DB offices were

25 not within the same chain. They had nothing to do with the SUP itself.

Page 3993

1 Q. And am I accurate then that Vitosevic, as the head of the OUP, had

2 no command authority over the DB and the DB officers?

3 A. No, Vitosevic had no authority over the DB. He couldn't issue

4 commands, he couldn't order the DB to do anything.

5 MR. IVETIC: All right. Your Honour, I think I clarified what

6 Your Honours and I both wanted, so I'm finished.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

8 K83, the name Jovanovic -- is it Jovanovic or Jevanovic?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jovanovic.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. And of the two persons Repanovic and

11 Borisavljevic, which of them held the higher position?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Repanovic did.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 Now, Mr. Marcussen, can I ask you about the issue of action taken

15 by Serb authorities in relation to the events affecting the Berisha

16 family. Are you aware of the trial of Cukaric and Tanovic?

17 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes, I am, Your Honour. I was intending to put

18 some questions in re-direct about this --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Why was that sort of evidence not led in direct

20 examination, to give us the picture -- the complete picture that some

21 action was being taken about this?

22 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, primarily because this witness has only been

23 a witness in that case and therefore cannot really speak to the -- to the

24 details of that case.


Page 3994


2 JUDGE BONOMY: So will we be getting other information about this

3 so that we don't need to explore it at this stage?

4 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes. The other reason why this witness hasn't

5 been asked about it is it is our understanding that that second

6 procedure -- the case before the -- that is now before the Belgrade

7 Special Court only started years after and therefore is not the outcome of

8 the investigation that the witness was involved in.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

10 MR. MARCUSSEN: We of course have extensive records and

11 documentary evidence from those record, and they have been disclosed to

12 the -- from the special court case and I'm sure the Defence has that as

13 well. We have disclosed all of that material. If it would assist the

14 Court, we can certainly make that available to the Court and --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Not necessary. You're the person who can judge

16 whether it will be of assistance to us because we don't know anything

17 about those proceedings. All I'm trying to do is establish the state of

18 play. You're say saying that these are ongoing proceedings, are you?

19 MR. MARCUSSEN: That's correct.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, I think these are matters for you to judge. I

21 just wanted to be clear about the current situation, and I note that your

22 explanation is that this is -- or these are proceedings which have arisen

23 years after the events that we're considering.

24 Now, Mr. Sepenuk.

25 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour.

Page 3995


2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I will have a few. I can assist you in

3 telling you that this Tanovic is dead and there are no proceedings against

4 him.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. -- well, you have your first and last name

7 and I cannot force myself to call you K and the number, so I will just

8 address you with mister. I hope you won't mind.

9 A. I don't.

10 Q. My name is Toma Fila and I appear on behalf of Nikola Sainovic.

11 A. Very well.

12 Q. First, to clarify, as regards to patrol comprising the four of

13 you, to go back to that briefly, you mentioned there were four of you and

14 there was no Tanovic, no mention of Tanovic at the time. And then you

15 mentioned Cegar appearing and everything else. And then all of a sudden

16 you see Cukaric and Tanovic taking out four Albanians. Is that so?

17 A. I didn't understand.

18 Q. When you set out on your patrol there were four of you. There was

19 no Tanovic in the story yet?

20 A. I may have omitted Tanovic, but he was a member of the patrol

21 together with Nenad Jovanovic, the assistant commander --

22 Q. And Cukaric?

23 A. Yes, and Petkovic and myself.

24 Q. So that's five?

25 A. The four of us plus the assistant commander.

Page 3996

1 Q. Yes, so we needed to clarify that.

2 Then you were interrogated by an investigative judge in Belgrade?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So you were questioned by investigative judge in Belgrade. Do you

5 remember that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. He put a few questions to you --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: One moment.

9 Yes, Mr. Marcussen.

10 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'm sorry to interrupt my learned colleague. I

11 had problems with this myself. I'm told that after we have posed a

12 question we need to turn off our microphones because otherwise the voice

13 will be picked up by the microphone and the voice distortion will not

14 work. It's very inconvenient. I'm sorry, but that's apparently how we

15 have to proceed.

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise.

17 Q. To repeat the question. You were questioned by Judge Dilparic, do

18 you remember that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. He had questions for you regarding the Berisha family and what

21 those houses were like, and you said that as people they were always a bit

22 on the dirty side. Is that correct?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, that they were

24 hot-tempered.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 3997

1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation].

2 Q. Then you were asked if Tanovic and Cukaric had any reason to hate

3 these people?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Did he ask you that?

6 A. He did.

7 Q. And then you said: Well, I don't know. It is possible. There

8 were OSCE monitors there, they were with them, they let them in their

9 houses, they used their jeeps, they ran over a woman in Suva Reka and

10 nothing happened. They were sort of -- well, no one could touch them for

11 as long as the monitors were there. Is that -- this what you stated?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can we conclude therefore that the behaviour of Cukaric and

14 Tanovic was sort of a revenge against the Berisha family?

15 A. I don't know whether he had any dispute or feud with the Berisha

16 family.

17 Q. But if we put this all in the context of the Berisha family

18 treatment of the Serbs, could there have been a reason that this

19 particular incident happened to them?

20 A. Yes, it is possible.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

22 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, the --

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I conclude my examination.

24 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think at the end the witness was asked to

25 speculate. He had already indicated he didn't know, but --

Page 3998

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that's a pretty reasonable assessment of

2 the situation. He had already said that he didn't know whether Tanovic

3 and Cukaric had any dispute or feud with the Berisha family.

4 Mr. O'Sullivan.

5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: And Mr. Bakrac.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll be very brief and I

8 will try to conclude before the break.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. K83, my name is Mihajlo Bakrac, one of the

11 counsel for General Lazarevic, and I will try to put a few questions to

12 you so that we can conclude shortly. I would like to clarify something.

13 You told my learned friend Mr. Ackerman that there was no army at the time

14 in Suva Reka, and you confirmed that in your statement. My question,

15 therefore, is the following: Is it correct that the army was on a

16 mountain in the forest nearby?

17 A. Yes, they were outside of Suva Reka. They were never in the

18 settlement.

19 Q. The place where the army was, is it called Dulje?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Will you agree with me, since you were a reserve policeman, that

22 the pass or the hill called Dulje is at the very entrance to the Crnjelovo

23 gorge and it has certain strategic importance?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you know because of this strategic importance the Army of

Page 3999

1 Yugoslavia was often attacked by the KLA at that very spot, at Dulje?

2 A. Yes, I do know.

3 Q. To move on to another topic, you mentioned the Cegar police unit

4 is it correct that the unit was stationed in the Balkan Hotel in Suva

5 Reka?

6 A. Part of, not all of them. Some were up at Dulje.

7 Q. Is it also correct that you and your colleagues used a Russian

8 make car called Gazik for your patrols and this was a bullet-proof

9 vehicle?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] If I may have a moment, Your Honours,

12 I believe I will have no further questions.

13 I have no further questions, Your Honours. Thank you.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

15 Mr. Marcussen.

16 MR. MARCUSSEN: We -- I do have some questions. We have close to

17 the break. I don't know whether Your Honours --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: There won't be any harm in overrunning for 15

19 minutes, if that's what you have in mind, and we'll start is a minutes

20 later in the afternoon. It would be much more convenient than having to

21 interrupt the witness somewhere.

22 MR. MARCUSSEN: No, I think that's a good solution. Thank you.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

24 Re-examination by Mr. Marcussen:

25 Q. K83, you were asked whether on the -- on the -- on the 26th in the

Page 4000

1 morning there had been a briefing where you had been given assignments. I

2 just want to clarify that point. In the morning you had gone to -- you

3 had gone with supplies and other things outside Suva Reka as I understand

4 it. Had there been a briefing where that assignment had been given to

5 you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. But during that briefing there had been no talk of any operation

8 involving the OSCE house, the Restane road, or involving the assistance of

9 the Cegar units. Is that how I should understand your answer to my

10 learned friend?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And I also think you said that Nenad Jovanovic looked surprised

13 when Cegar 1 told him to get moving and join him in the operation. Is

14 that correct?

15 A. Well, he was surprised because he didn't know why he should get

16 going. He had regular work that he was supposed to do; that's why he was

17 surprised and we were surprised, too.

18 Q. But then -- so -- and that is why you say that you think that the

19 whole thing started because Cegar 1 arrived. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, right.

21 Q. Now, you have described how you were running towards the -- in the

22 direction of the OSCE house and other houses. Would you describe all that

23 movement as -- as a joint operation between people from the OUP and the

24 Cegar units?

25 A. Well, it could be put that way because -- well, we were sort of --

Page 4001

1 well, first they went and we went behind them and, well, sort of.

2 Q. So while you were told to take up a position in certain places,

3 the Cegar units were taking care of other houses, so there was some sort

4 of organised division of labour going on. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, correct.

6 Q. You were also asked about the investigations that were carried out

7 at the OSCE building and I have some questions about that. Now, first of

8 all your evidence is that the person who bought -- brought Jashar Berisha

9 down to the pizzeria, one of those persons was Todor Jovanovic. Is that

10 the same Todor Jovanovic who participated on the investigation team that

11 you provided security for?

12 A. Yes, crime scene technician.

13 Q. So he knew what had happened at the pizza bar?

14 A. I think he knew, since it got that far.

15 Q. Would you -- I know you were at the pizzeria. But considering

16 what happened at the pizzeria, hand-grenades being thrown, a lot of fire

17 from automatic weapons, would that have been heard at the OUP, the police

18 station?

19 A. I don't know. It wasn't that much -- I mean, it wasn't that

20 strong a detonation, because there were buildings around and concrete.

21 Q. You explained that a number of people arrived, Vuksanovic,

22 Djordjevic. Did other policemen come to the pizzeria during the day when

23 you were sitting down at the position you might you remember you indicated

24 with a B close to the kiosk by the pizzeria?

25 A. Well, there were a lot of people from the civil protection and

Page 4002

1 from the municipality, from the TO -- well, I cannot refer to all those

2 names now and remember all of them. Well, people came sort of out of

3 curiosity to see that.

4 Q. Was it an incident that people talked about in Suva Reka

5 afterwards?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you speak to other of your colleagues about the incident?

8 A. Well, we did talk.

9 Q. In your opinion, would your --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: That depends who the colleagues were, if I've

11 understood your drift.


13 Q. Do you remember who you spoke to about the incident?

14 A. Oh, I don't know. They were colleagues, sort of everyday

15 co-workers. I cannot remember exactly what their names were.

16 Q. Were -- was this being spoken about to such an extent you think

17 your superior officers would have heard about it?

18 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour, calls for speculation.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I think that's a question that's within --

20 again, within the compass of the witness's experience and he can tell us

21 if he has no idea.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know. I don't know.


24 Q. After the 26th -- well, let me put my question differently. You

25 went down with the investigation team along the Restane road the day after

Page 4003

1 the incident and you found a number of bodies. Were there any civilians

2 that you came by in that area?

3 A. Yes, there were some civilians.

4 Q. After the events in the first days after the -- the NATO bombings,

5 did a lot of Albanians leave Suva Reka town?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were also asked about communication between the OUP and

8 Prizren and you said that there had been a break-down in communication. I

9 understand your evidence to be you're not entirely sure about when that

10 break-down was. But while there was a break-down in communication, could

11 you drive on the road between Suva Reka and Prizren?

12 A. Yes, one could drive.

13 Q. Do you know whether there was communication between the police

14 station in Suva Reka and the SUP in Prizren by simply sending people back

15 and forth between the two places?

16 A. I didn't understand.

17 Q. Do you know whether the communication problems that occurred were

18 overcome by sending people back and forth by road between -- for example,

19 from the police station in Suva Reka and down to Prizren to make reports

20 or receive instructions?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Your evidence was that the break-down in

23 communication was caused by damage to electricity.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was because of electricity.

25 There was no electricity for four or five days, but the road between

Page 4004

1 Prizren and Suva Reka was open.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: What about communication either by telephone or by

3 radio between Prizren and Suva Reka, was that impossible during this

4 period?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, certain types of radio

6 communication did function. I don't know whether all the devices were

7 operating, but one could communicate by radio.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: I want to ask you one separate question also. The

9 immediate superior of yours Jovanovic, who was not at the pizzeria, was he

10 aware of the events there?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps afterwards, but I didn't see

12 him on that day.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm thinking of afterwards. Did he become

14 aware of these events after they had occurred?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I believe so.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.


18 Q. Is this Jovanovic, is he charged, to your knowledge, before the

19 Belgrade court?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You were asked some questions about looting of houses and whether

22 a number of people had been arrested between March and May. Do you know

23 whether the houses that were looted were -- belonged to Serbs or to

24 Albanians?

25 A. To Albanians.

Page 4005

1 Q. And finally, you were asked about the communication -- no, sorry,

2 you were asked about the point in time when you were drinking the two

3 bottles of liquor. When you testified -- when I asked you some questions

4 you said that you saw -- you saw Cukaric communicate on the radio. Was he

5 communicating on the radio before, during, or after you had been drinking

6 the alcohol?

7 A. I believe before.

8 Q. While you were drinking the alcohol, did you discuss what would --

9 what you would do next?

10 A. Well, Cukaric and Tanovic discussed throwing a hand-grenade in the

11 pizzeria.

12 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

13 witness.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well -- so that brings your evidence here to an

15 end. Thank you very much for coming to the Tribunal to give this

16 evidence.

17 The court's going to rise now, and we will resume at 2.15.

18 Just stay where you are until we've left the courtroom and then

19 arrangements will be made also for you to leave. Thank you.

20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.47 p.m.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 --- On resuming at 2.18 p.m.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

24 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honours. There's a point

25 regarding the evidence that we have been hearing from the two or three

Page 4006

1 last witnesses, actually, that I thought I should just clarify. I realise

2 that I omitted to clarify this earlier. We have heard evidence about the

3 killing of Jashar Berisha. He is not among the scheduled victims on

4 Schedule D. I just wanted to make that clear so there's no confusion

5 later on about whether there's a mistake. His evidence is relevant to --

6 to the issue of how bodies from Suva Reka were moved around. And also, on

7 the family-tree that was introduced through Shyrete Berisha, P2346, there

8 are two children mentioned at the bottom of that family-tree, Genshi, and

9 Graniqi Berisha, 4 and 2 years old. These two persons are not on the

10 Schedule D either. I just wanted to make that clear to.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: That's helpful.

12 Are you taking the next witness?

13 MR. MARCUSSEN: My colleague, Mr. Scully, will do that.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Who is the next witness, Mr. Scully?

15 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, the next witness is Hysni Berisha.

16 Mr. Berisha was originally a 92 bis (D) witness; his evidence has now been

17 offered through 92 ter. The transcript in Milosevic can be found at

18 P2281 --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just hold on, is that an alteration to the

20 list?

21 MR. SCULLY: Yeah.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: The last witness running order running I have is

23 the 22nd of September, which indicated Osman Kuci as the next witness.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 MR. HANNIS: That is correct, Your Honour. We had indicated via

Page 4007

1 e-mail, I believe, to your Legal Officers and to Defence counsel yesterday

2 that Mr. Kuci would not be called.


4 MR. HANNIS: At all.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. I'm sorry. I didn't get that

6 information. I spent some time on this, regrettably.

7 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry that happened, Your Honour. We did notify

8 the Legal Officers yesterday evening when we became -- when we came to

9 that decision.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 Well, good afternoon, Mr. Berisha.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please now make the solemn declaration to

14 tell the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed

15 before you?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot hear the Albanian

17 interpretation.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'll start again. Could you please make the

19 solemn declaration to tell the truth by reading aloud the document which

20 is now before you?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

24 Now, we have in front of us already a big bundle of paper which

25 sets out the account you can give of various events. It includes the

Page 4008

1 written transcript of the evidence you gave before when you came here, it

2 includes statements you've given and other information. So there's a lot

3 of information already before the court. The purpose of you being here

4 today is so that counsel for the parties can ask you questions, either to

5 add to that information, to explain it more fully, or to challenge it.

6 The important thing for you to do is concentrate on the point that the

7 questioner wants more information or any information about and try to

8 confine the answer you give to the point that's being explored so that we

9 don't go back over all the information we've already got. Time is short

10 and precious in this building, and therefore it's important that we

11 concentrate on the things that counsel want to ask you. The first person

12 to ask questions will be for the Prosecution, Mr. Scully.

13 Mr. Scully.

14 MR. SCULLY: Thank you, Your Honour. Would you like the relevant

15 paragraph numbers or should I proceed.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I think in this case you can proceed.

17 MR. SCULLY: Thank you.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examination by Mr. Scully:

21 Q. Mr. Berisha, can you please state your name and spell both your

22 first and last name for the record.

23 A. My name is Hysni, H-y-s-n-i, my father's name is Sylejman

24 S-y-l-e-j-m-a-n, and the surname is Berisha, B-e-r-i-s-h-a.

25 Q. And, Mr. Berisha, wrote do you live now?

Page 4009

1 A. I live in Suhareke, Kosovo.

2 Q. And how long have you lived in Suva Reka?

3 A. From the day I was born on the 12th of April, 1948.

4 Q. Did you provide a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor dated

5 20 August, 2001, regarding the events in Suva Reka in 1998, 1999, and

6 beyond?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you add information to that statement on 13 March 2002?

9 A. Yes, correct.

10 MR. SCULLY: For the record, that is Exhibit P2282.

11 Q. Mr. Berisha, did you also testify in the Milosevic case regarding

12 events in Suva Reka?

13 A. Yes, true.

14 MR. SCULLY: The transcript can be found at P2281.

15 Q. Mr. Berisha, did you review those two statements with me last

16 Friday, as well as yesterday, the 25th of October [sic]?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And even though you added some information to them, were the

19 statements otherwise true and correct?

20 A. Yes, very true.

21 MR. SCULLY: Your Honours, my first question will relate to page 8

22 of Exhibit P2282, and may I have Exhibit P120 at page 2 on the screen,

23 please.

24 Q. Mr. Berisha, did you visit the VJ firing range in Suva Reka in

25 August 1999 with the British forensic team?

Page 4010

1 A. Yes, that's correct. And it was the 1st of September, 1999.

2 Q. As soon as the photograph appears on your screen, can you tell me

3 whether you recognise the location that is shown on that photograph.

4 A. Yes, that's the firing range of the former Yugoslav army. It is

5 between the villages of Korisha and Lubishte.

6 Q. How do you get to that location in terms of major roads you would

7 take from the town of Suva Reka?

8 A. If you leave from Suhareke, you go towards Prizren. About the

9 13th kilometre you can find this firing range.

10 MR. SCULLY: May I have Exhibit P123 at page 25 up on the screen

11 next.

12 Q. Mr. Berisha, when you visited that firing range, were you shown

13 some items that had been recovered from the ground there?

14 A. Yes. This was before visiting the site with the British forensic

15 team, who worked at that site. On the 1st of September we assisted the

16 opening of that grave site by this forensic team, and all these objects

17 that you see on the monitor were found at this site, grave site.

18 Q. Why were you shown the objects that have appeared on the monitor

19 in P123?

20 A. All these items with a code KRA were found at the mass grave at

21 the firing range of the Yugoslav army, and these items were found when

22 this grave site was opened. The code was KRA and they were shown to me to

23 identify the missing people.

24 Q. And drawing your attention to the numbers and letters that are

25 written next to the objects, were those KRA codes next to the objects when

Page 4011

1 you saw them for the purposes of identifying the items?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Berisha, are you saying these were found before

5 the British forensic team did their work?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. These here were found while the

7 British team was working there, the British team opened the grave site.

8 They were in the ground.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


11 Q. Mr. Berisha, were you able to recognise a number of items that

12 were shown to you and did you put your description of the items into your

13 statement of 2001?

14 A. Yes. These items that are shown on the monitor were identified by

15 me and the family members of those people, and they were identified -- for

16 example, KRA1036 is the handkerchief of Musli Berisha and his son and

17 daughter identified it.

18 MR. SCULLY: Your Honours, Exhibits P123, P133, and P134 are

19 sequences of photos very similar to this one. I'm moving to admit them at

20 this time based on this foundation and based upon the description in the

21 statement. If the Court would like further foundation, I would need to

22 show him each page, which I think would be rather time-consuming.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there any objection to that course of action?

24 Very well, you can proceed on that basis.

25 MR. SCULLY: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 4012

1 Can I have P122 at page 5.

2 Q. Drawing your attention to the left side of the screen, to the

3 photo shown there, do you recognise that photograph?

4 A. Yes. This photograph was found at the grave site, and I know the

5 people who are in this photograph.

6 Q. Did you see that photograph recovered at the grave site?

7 A. Yes. It was found on the 1st of September, 1999.

8 MR. SCULLY: May we have the next page, which is the photograph

9 shown closer.

10 Q. Who are the people who are depicted in that photograph?

11 A. In the photograph you can see the wife of Hamdi Berisha, with her

12 son Mirat, who were killed. Hamdi was killed and Mirat's four sisters

13 were killed.

14 MR. SCULLY: May I have Exhibit P125 at page 17.

15 Your Honours, these -- the next four photographs were previously

16 shown to Sherita Berisha and she had testified that the people depicted

17 there were killed in the coffee shop but she was unable to provide the

18 names of these witnesses. Because they are scheduled, I am simply going

19 to ask this witness if he knows, based on his personal experience, who

20 these people are.

21 Q. Mr. Berisha, taking a look at the photograph on your screen --

22 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, just seeing these photographs now

23 they've got -- they've got names at the bottom of them. I don't think

24 that's proper if he's going to identify the individuals if it has a name

25 on it that can be read.

Page 4013

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I actually don't remember having a name from the

2 other day if we -- we saw this photograph the other day and I don't think

3 there was a name on it. I may be wrong, but --

4 MR. SCULLY: We're checking, but I think this is the only copy of

5 the exhibit we have. These are family members and so I would submit that

6 that goes to weight rather than admissibility of the identification.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on and let's see what we can do about it

8 because -- can you check, though, whether this is the only copy?

9 MR. SCULLY: The -- we can also -- it's a little late on this one.

10 For the next ones we can ask the court staff to zoom in on the photograph

11 before it's displayed to the witness.

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, the other exhibit is P2344, which has

14 not only the name but that -- the persons were present in the coffee bar

15 written on it. I don't know of an exhibit that doesn't have it.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Just hold on a second.

17 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, if I can lay some foundation about how

18 he knows these people, I think some of the Court's concerns about the

19 accuracy of the identification may be allayed.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm getting advice just now, Mr. Scully, that P2344

22 does not have the names.

23 MR. SCULLY: If that's the case, Your Honour, I would be delighted

24 to use it.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's the recollection of the Bench, that we

Page 4014

1 saw photographs without names. It may say "present in coffee bar," but

2 without the name.

3 MR. SCULLY: If P2344 is a better exhibit, I'm delighted to use

4 that one. I believed that it had the copies on it and the copy on our

5 screen does have names written on them or at least family relationships

6 written on it. Your Honour, may I suggest we eliminate this problem and

7 future ones by just zooming in on the photograph.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: If you're confident that the names will not show.

9 [Microphone not activated]

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, proceed to use the one you've got on the

13 screen, Mr. Scully, and when you use the best one do your best to avoid

14 exposing the name before the witness has a chance to comment.

15 MR. SCULLY: Yes, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Berisha, do you know the person shown in that photograph?

17 A. Yes, she's from my family. She's the fourth daughter of Hamdi

18 Berisha and Selija Berisha and the youngest sister of Mirat. You saw

19 Mirat in the former photograph, previous one.

20 Q. When she was alive, how often did you see her?

21 A. Because we are close in our family, we met each other very often.

22 MR. SCULLY: May I have page 18, if you could just bring it up on

23 the attorneys' screens before publishing it through the court usher to the

24 witness. Alternatively, if court staff can publish it, I don't know need

25 to preview it. That's perfect. Is that on the witness's screen? Thank

Page 4015

1 you.

2 Q. Mr. Berisha, do you recognise the person shown in that photograph?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who is that person?

5 A. She is Hanumshahe Berisha, the wife of Sait Musli Berisha, the

6 wife of Hamdi Berisha, Avdi Berisha, Musli Berisha. From this family, 16

7 people were killed. She was the oldest one.

8 MR. SCULLY: May I now have the photograph shown on page 24 with

9 the same arrangement. And following 24, if it aids in preparation, I'll

10 be asking for 28.

11 Q. Mr. Berisha, do you recognise that person?

12 A. Yes. She's the third daughter of Hamdi and Selija Berisha, or

13 third sister of Mirat.

14 Q. And do you know her first name?

15 A. Arta or Zana Berisha.

16 MR. SCULLY: May I have page 28 with the same arrangement.

17 Q. Who is that person, Mr. Berisha?

18 A. This is Musli Sahit Berisha, the eldest son of Hanumshahe Berisha

19 and Hamdi's and Avdi's brother.

20 Q. Thank you?

21 MR. SCULLY: The next exhibit I'll ask for is P2351, drawing the

22 Court's attention now to page 7 of Mr. Berisha's statement.

23 Q. Mr. Berisha, during the course of the investigations you've

24 described in your statement, did you prepare a list of persons killed and

25 missing in Suva Reka and provide it to the Prosecution in 2001?

Page 4016

1 A. Yes, I did. I gave them a list that I had at the time. I have

2 now an extended list.

3 Q. Drawing your attention to the document that is on your screen, is

4 that the extended list you just described?

5 A. No, it doesn't start from number 1. This is just one page of that

6 list.

7 Q. I think we ended up somewhere in the middle of that exhibit. It

8 looks like that's page 7. I think it might actually be easiest to go to

9 the last page.

10 A. Yes, this is the new list, with the additions that were made

11 later.

12 Q. What is different about that list from the list you provided in

13 2001?

14 A. It is different because the former list did not have many of the

15 names of the victims, and after the family members came and gave us names

16 of missing people, then the list became this one.

17 Q. Did you also remove some people from the original list?

18 A. No, I don't think so. We just added to the list.

19 Q. Did you remove any persons from the original list based on their

20 membership in the KLA?

21 A. There are no KLA soldiers here in this list. This is a list of

22 civilians. The list of soldiers is another one, so they are not included

23 in this one.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. SCULLY: Your Honours, speaking now generally about the

Page 4017

1 witness's statement.

2 Q. Mr. Berisha, in your statement, you used the terms "police"

3 and "regular police." Can you please tell the Court who you include in

4 that category.

5 A. First I would like to point out that I never worked or been a

6 member in the police or the VJ. I've only completed my military service.

7 For me all the police forces that were present there during the war in

8 Kosova included many forces such as local Serbs that I knew from the past

9 and during the war saw in uniforms, be it police or military one and I

10 differentiated them from regular police. I called them rather member of

11 Territorial Defence; however, they were under the command of the regular

12 police.

13 Q. Mr. Berisha, I apologise for interrupting, but can you just tell

14 us how you define the terms "police" and "regular police." I'll ask you

15 some of those other questions in a moment.

16 A. In my opinion, a regular police was the public-order police;

17 however, these formations also included civilian formations that were

18 mobilised, either in the police or Serbian army. And this is what in

19 broad terms I call regular police.

20 Q. What type of uniform, if any, would the regular police wear?

21 A. They had blue camouflage uniforms and solid blue uniforms.

22 Q. Thank you. You also used the term "paramilitary." Can you please

23 tell us what you mean by that term.

24 A. I had the opportunity to come across forces that were wearing

25 other types of uniforms, such as black uniforms with different insignia.

Page 4018

1 I thought they were paramilitaries and that they were operating in

2 Suhareke region. And also I've seen uniforms of the regular police that I

3 already described. The paramilitary uniform, for me to describe it, I

4 always based on the fact that the special units wore black uniforms.

5 Q. Did you personally know some of the people you've described as

6 paramilitaries?

7 A. Yes, I knew many of these local Serbs.

8 Q. And did you know that the people you knew and described as

9 paramilitaries were not employed by the police on a regular basis?

10 A. Not before 1998. They were not employed by the police, but after

11 this year they became members of the police.

12 Q. Did you ever observe people you've described as paramilitaries and

13 people you've described as regular police working together?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When did you see them working together?

16 A. During 1998 and 1999, especially after 24th of March, 1999.

17 MR. SCULLY: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further questions

18 at this time.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, we will proceed in the following

21 order: General Lukic, General Pavkovic, General Ojdanic,

22 General Lazarevic, Mr. Sainovic, and Mr. Milutinovic. Thank you.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

24 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

Page 4019

1 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Dan Ivetic, and I represent

2 Mr. Sreten Lukic in these proceedings, along with my colleagues Mr. Branko

3 Lukic and Mr. Ozren Ogrizovic. And I have a couple of questions for you

4 to try and clarify some points that you have testified to here today. I

5 would ask you to pay close attention to what I ask you, and I would also

6 ask you to make sure that your answers are the most concise and truthful

7 answers possible, so that if you don't understand a question please ask me

8 to repeat it.

9 Now, first of all, sir, you've told us that you were never

10 employed by the police. I want to ask you about your education. Did you

11 have any education in any type of investigative activities?

12 A. I don't know if it is necessary for me to answer this question,

13 Your Honours, because I was asked the same question during my testimony in

14 Milosevic trial. If you find it reasonable for me to answer it, I will,

15 Your Honours.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I think it is open to counsel to ask the same

17 question as was asked in an earlier trial as a prelude to developing other

18 questions that they wish to ask. So it would be helpful if you would

19 answer that question again today.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not trained in investigative

21 activities. I am an attorney-at-law by profession. What made me

22 investigate is the fact that 48 persons from my family were killed, from

23 my extended family were killed. This is the reason why I got engaged into

24 investigative activities.


Page 4020

1 Q. Okay. Sir, now did anyone assist you in your voluntary

2 investigations that you conducted in June of 1999 and thereafter?

3 A. No. I assisted others for the truth to come on to surface.

4 Q. And did your investigative work receive any support or assistance

5 from the temporary government that was in place in Suva Reka or by any

6 other body?

7 A. On 13th of June, I began my investigative activities about the

8 crimes that were committed. At that time there were no institutions in

9 existence.

10 Q. You will agree with me, however, that at some point in time

11 between June of 1999 and October 8th of 1999, there was a temporary

12 government council established in the town of Suva Reka. Isn't that

13 correct?

14 A. What I said earlier refers to an earlier period. Later on, a

15 commission was found for investigating war crimes that were committed in

16 Suhareke municipality, and I was a member of this commission.

17 Q. Thank you for that clarification. And now isn't it also correct

18 that the temporary government established in Suva Reka was established by

19 Hashim Thaqi's political party, that is the political party of the KLA,

20 and this existed until October 1999, when it was dismantled by UNMIK, the

21 United Nations Mission in Kosovo?

22 A. To me a temporary government is a civil administration that

23 was -- in the beginning, as I said, Kosova was without administration.

24 And this temporary government did not engage in investigations. We as

25 family members of the victims became members of the commission for

Page 4021

1 investigating war crimes.

2 Q. Just trying to see if my question had been answered. Isn't it

3 correct that Hashim Thaqi's political party established a temporary

4 government in Suva Reka that was dismantled in October of 1999 by UNMIK?

5 A. I don't know exactly until what period this provisional government

6 functioned. I don't know when it stopped functioning. Either it was at

7 the time when the first election were held or in October, but when the

8 UNMIK administration was established it took over all the civil powers in

9 their hands.

10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, as part of your investigative work, were

11 you composing any type of reports regarding the work that you were

12 undertaking?

13 A. As far as reports are concerned, I didn't compile any report

14 myself. My work was exclusively a terrain work, a field work, in order to

15 identify mass graves and persons that are missing to this date.

16 Q. Okay. And you have, I believe, identified here today this list

17 that you've created. And correct me if I'm wrong, but this new extended

18 list that was shown on e-court, it contains the names of persons who died

19 in 1998 and is not limited to 1999, as you had originally stated in your

20 statement. Is that correct?

21 A. No. First of all, they did not die. All persons on that list did

22 not die a natural death; they were killed by the Serbian police and

23 military forces. The list includes names of victims that were killed

24 during 1998 and 1999.

25 Q. And I believe your statement talks about the list being limited to

Page 4022

1 1999, but I'll move on. With respect to this list, you testified that

2 there was -- well, first of all, does this list include civilians who were

3 killed by the KLA in the Suva Reka municipality at any point in time

4 during 1998 or 1999?

5 A. Nobody was killed in Suhareke by the KLA, be it a person from a

6 Roma ethnicity or a Serb ethnicity or Albanian ethnicity -- at least I

7 don't have any information of this kind.

8 Q. Were your investigations conducted to determine deaths of persons

9 killed by the KLA or did you just focus upon ethnic Albanian civilians?

10 A. Civilians killed, who were killed.

11 Q. Did you investigate any Serb civilians who were killed during the

12 relevant time-period and do they appear on your list?

13 A. I would gladly conduct investigation about such cases, but they

14 did not address me with any request of this kind, to investigate a Serb

15 civilian that had been killed.

16 Q. Well, you certainly knew about Serb civilians that had been killed

17 by the KLA, did you not?

18 A. As I said, I don't know of a case of a Serb killed by the KLA in

19 Suhareke.

20 Q. Do you know the case of Bogdan Lazic killed in March 1999, at 1430

21 hours in the Balkan Bet shop that's referenced in your statement?

22 A. I want to make a clarification here. On the 22nd of March, 1999,

23 at around -- now I don't know exactly, but it was around 12.00, an

24 incident occurred and to this day it is not clear who carried out that

25 incident. It looks that it was a staged incident as a pretext to carry

Page 4023

1 out the massacre that occurred the same day when ten Albanian civilians

2 were killed, nine men and one woman.

3 Q. Did you carry out investigations related to Mr. Lazic's killing?

4 A. No, I didn't because I didn't have any source of information.

5 From what I learned from the diary of --

6 Q. I think you've answered my question --

7 A. Stanislav Niskovic --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, Andrejevic.


10 Q. I think you've answered my question. I want to ask you about the

11 other --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: It would help us to have the complete answer to the

13 question. The witness was explaining why he had no source of information

14 I think. And then he goes on to say: From what I learned from the diary

15 of.

16 Now, could you complete that answer, please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 As I was saying in my previous answer, from the notebook of

19 Stanislav Andjelkovic, who was a high official in Suhareke municipality,

20 and the case of the killing of the Serb that was mentioned by the counsel

21 and of these ten Albanians were not mentioned at all, it is just saying

22 there that the local authorities are investigating an incident, an act of

23 crime, and it's not clear whether this act of crime refers to the killing

24 of this Serb or to the killing of the ten Albanian civilians. From the

25 date when these Albanians were killed, the ten civilians, their bodies

Page 4024

1 have not been found to this day.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.


4 Q. The gentleman, Mr. Lazic, isn't it correct that he comes from the

5 neighbourhood near the Bytyqi, Morina, Hoxha, and Kryeziu families?

6 A. No, that's not correct. Mr. Lazic lived in Sopia village, which

7 is 3 kilometres from Suhareke. Zoti Lazic has nothing to do with the

8 Bytyqi brothers, Morina brothers, or Hoxha brothers in this particular

9 case. He lived, Mr. Lazic lived, in Sopia village.

10 Q. Did he have other family members living in and around the Suva

11 Reka municipality?

12 A. I don't know that. I know that he worked in Suhareke

13 municipality, and Sopia village is part of Suhareke municipality.

14 Q. Okay. Now if we can return to the second list that you mentioned,

15 the list that has KLA members who are deceased. First of all, did you

16 give a copy of that list to the Office of the Prosecutor?

17 A. I don't think that this list includes names of KLA soldiers. We

18 did not consider KLA soldiers as civilian victims. So us they were

19 heroes, people's heroes, because they took up weapons to defend the

20 civilian population.

21 Q. I take it from your response that you supported the KLA during the

22 war. Is that accurate?

23 A. Not only me, but the entire Albanian population in Kosova

24 supported the KLA. I'm just one of them.

25 Q. Well, now I'd like to ask you about what you testified here

Page 4025

1 earlier. You mentioned a second list with KLA members, and that is the

2 list that I'm asking you about. Did you provide a copy of that list to

3 the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?

4 A. I don't remember. I can tell you the number that occurs on that

5 list, but I don't know if I offered that list to the Prosecutor's office

6 or not. I know that I provided the Prosecutor's office with two lists:

7 The first list of civilian victims and the second extended list. If there

8 is a third list, maybe I did offer it to them but I don't remember.

9 Q. Well, sir, you mentioned at page 80, line 23 through 25 of today's

10 transcript that there is a list of soldiers and you said it's "another

11 one." So I want to ask you: How many fallen KLA soldiers from the

12 municipality of Suva Reka appear on this second list which you may or may

13 not have given to the Prosecutor?

14 A. Your Honour, I want to be clear. The list that I offered to the

15 Office of the Prosecutor includes names of civilian victims that were

16 killed in Suhareke municipality. It has nothing to do with the list of

17 soldiers that the counsel is putting to me.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: In your earlier evidence you said there were no

19 KLA soldiers on the list. You said it was a list of civilians, and you

20 then said: "The list of soldiers is another one, so they are not on this

21 one."

22 Now, what counsel is asking you is about what you appear to have

23 said was a separate list of soldiers. Now, is there such a list? Well,

24 his questions are directed to that. So bear that in mind when you're

25 trying to answer them.

Page 4026

1 Mr. Ivetic.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now this question is clear to me. I

5 said earlier that there is a list of soldiers who were killed on the front

6 line. To my knowledge, this list includes the names of 83 martyrs but

7 this list was not presented to the ICTY investigators in my part because I

8 did not deal with -- I was not involved in the investigations of martyrs

9 that were killed. My work dealt strictly dealt with investigation of

10 victims, civilian victims that were killed.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: And to ensure that we have the whole picture, were

12 these 83 deceased all within the Suva Reka municipality?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

15 Mr. Ivetic.

16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Sir, limiting ourselves to the Suva Reka municipality, is it

18 accurate that during 1998 and 1999 the 123rd Brigade of the so-called KLA

19 was operating in that area and had approximately 1.600 armed fighters in

20 its structure?

21 A. It is true that 123rd Brigade was operating in Suhareke

22 municipality, but I don't know the number of soldiers it had.

23 Q. Thank you. And is it also accurate that the 123rd Brigade of the

24 KLA controlled various villages and territory within the Suva Reka

25 municipality?

Page 4027

1 A. It was in mountainous and hilly regions. The population that was

2 forced to withdraw for security reasons, that area was under the

3 protection of the KLA.

4 Q. Is it -- is my understanding correct from your response that you

5 have knowledge of the fact that the KLA ordered the Albanian civilian

6 population to move at various times in the Suva Reka municipality?

7 MR. SCULLY: Objection. I don't believe the witness has any basis

8 for answering that question.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the answer is such that I would have asked

10 the question if Mr. Ivetic hadn't asked it. The answer that was given

11 was: "They were in control in the mountainous and hilly areas where the

12 population had to withdraw for security reasons." I see nothing wrong

13 with the question that's been asked to follow that up.

14 Carry on with it, please.

15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Sir, I'll ask the question again. Is my understanding correct

17 from your response that you have knowledge of the fact that the KLA

18 ordered the ethnic Albanian civilian population to move at various times

19 from various villages in the Suva Reka municipality?

20 A. No. The Kosovo Liberation Army never directed or ordered the

21 civilian population to leave their own villages. The civilian population

22 sought shelter after the attacks that were undertaken by the Serbian --

23 Yugoslav army and police by shelling villages from different directions.

24 Q. During the -- during the time-period of January through March

25 1999, did you ever have contact with any officers of the KLA?

Page 4028

1 A. Could you state the time-period again, please?

2 Q. Sure. The time-period I stated was January 1999 through March

3 1999.

4 A. No, I have never contacted any officer.

5 Q. And then -- well, I see that the time period -- well, how about in

6 1998 or ...

7 A. The Kosovo Liberation Army did not operate in the city of

8 Suhareke. It was never present, neither in 1998 nor in 1999.

9 Q. But it did exist and operate in a majority of the villages that

10 surrounded and were adjacent to Suva Reka town. Isn't that correct, sir?

11 A. I'm speaking about Suhareke because I was always there, in

12 Suhareke, and I can speak about the army and police forces, the Yugoslav

13 army and police forces that I came across during that period.

14 Q. Okay, sir. Now, you stated in your direct examination that the

15 Territorial Defence was under the authority and control of the police

16 forces. Are you aware of the -- of the laws of the Federal Republic of

17 Yugoslavia and the Republic of Serbia that were in existence during the

18 time-period of 1998 and 1999?

19 A. I know that there were laws about killing as many Albanians as

20 possible, and that's what was done.

21 Q. Well, sir, as a lawyer, could you please cite to me a law that

22 called for the killing of as many Albanians as possible, or are you

23 perhaps giving false testimony?

24 A. First of all, I have to remind you, sir, and the accused here,

25 that in March 1999 before the NATO bombing started, you threatened the

Page 4029

1 Albanian population with the words that: If NATO bombs the Serbian forces

2 and positions, we will expel the Albanians. On the 24th of March, in the

3 afternoon, in addition to the reinforcements that were coming to Kosova

4 all the time, police forces and army forces were coming from Serbia at

5 that time and they were stationed in Suhareke.

6 Q. Sir, I'm still waiting for you to answer my question to cite the

7 specific law that you referenced that said that all Albanians should be

8 killed, or was that perhaps false testimony on your part?

9 A. No. This is not false testimony, but I'm speaking about the facts

10 that we've lived --

11 Q. I would ask you to cite the law.

12 A. There were orders outside the law. You proclaimed a state of war

13 in Kosova and you gave all the rights to the Yugoslav army and police to

14 act as aggressively and cruelly as possible against the Albanian

15 population.

16 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that you have neither examined nor made

17 inquiry about the laws that were in effect on the territory of the Federal

18 Republic of Yugoslavia and the Republic of Serbia and the autonomous

19 province of Kosovo-Metohija during 1998/1999 that would enable you to draw

20 the conclusions that you've reached regarding the Territorial Defence

21 being under the control of the MUP or the existence of any laws to "kill

22 as many Albanians as possible"?

23 MR. SCULLY: Objection, asked and answered.

24 MR. IVETIC: I believe I've been trying to get an answer for some

25 time, but I don't believe it's been answered.

Page 4030

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Direct me, please, Mr. Scully to the answer.

2 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, I believe the best answer is: There

3 were orders outside the law. And while that's not in the terms that

4 counsel's --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no, that was the different -- well, yeah.

6 The problem with that question, Mr. Ivetic, is you've combined the

7 two issues. You've combined the emotive one, which I think we've probably

8 moved past, with the question you started this with, which was whether

9 there was any law which placed the Territorial Defence under the control

10 of the MUP. And that's what I think this question should be confined to.

11 And if it is, I don't think Mr. Scully can object to it.

12 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. That's what I meant to confine it.

13 Perhaps I got carried away.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's be absolutely clear by asking the question

15 again.

16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Now, sir, is it a fact that you have neither examined nor made

18 inquiry into the laws that were in effect on the territory of the Federal

19 Republic of Yugoslavia, the Republic of Serbia, and/or the autonomous

20 province of Kosovo-Metohija in 1998 and 1999 that would enable you to draw

21 any conclusions about the operations of either the Territorial Defence or

22 the MUP, and in particular the subordination of the Territorial Defence to

23 the MUP as you testified to in your direct?

24 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, that's exactly the same question. He's

25 testified that he did examine the law and that what he's referring to is

Page 4031

1 the orders -- I've lost the term now, but the orders outside the law.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the question doesn't help, Mr. Ivetic. I

3 thought that there was a particular point here that you were trying to

4 undermine, which was the basis for saying that the police had authority

5 over the Territorial Defence. But your question's a much more general one

6 which --

7 MR. IVETIC: Well, I could ask it specifically that way.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: -- I don't think the witness should be required to

9 deal with again.

10 MR. IVETIC: Well, let's ask him this way.

11 Q. Do you have a factual legal basis for your conclusion that the

12 police had authority over the Territorial Defence?

13 A. Once again I will have to repeat this. Sir, you're making the

14 question in different forms, but I said earlier, and I'll repeat it again.

15 All the actions undertaken in Kosova against the civilian population were

16 commanded by the head of the Serbian state and the former Yugoslavia. And

17 all the orders were given by that leadership. And they were implemented

18 by the police, the army, in cooperation with each other.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, is there a part in the statement where

20 the particular point relating to the Territorial Defence is made?

21 MR. IVETIC: Off the top of my head, I do not recall, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

23 MR. IVETIC: So that was --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I assumed that this related to a particular

25 statement within the statement, but it appears it was a more general

Page 4032

1 question.

2 MR. IVETIC: It was only new that I thought came up in the direct,

3 so I did not have anything on that.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I don't think this matter is going to be

5 advanced by any further questions on this line.

6 MR. IVETIC: I agree. I'm prepared to move on.

7 Q. Now, sir, in your statement you describe that on the 25th of March

8 in the morning you saw flames of burning houses. Now, you did not

9 actually see the houses as to how they were set on fire, did you?

10 A. I would like to describe the whole event before the 25th of March.

11 Before the -- 6.00 in the morning on that day, how the Serbian forces

12 penetrated and they attacked.

13 Q. Well, sir, one of the prerogatives of doing a cross-examination is

14 choosing the questions that are asked. We have your statement, we have

15 your testimony, and I'm trying to clarify specific points of it. So I

16 would ask you again: The houses that you say were burning on the morning

17 of the 25th of March from paragraph 3 of your statement, you did not

18 personally see these houses and how they were set ablaze, did you?

19 A. The police and the army set those houses on fire; I saw them.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Berisha, you're being asked -- well, sorry, you

21 have answered it now by saying that you did see the police and the army

22 setting them ablaze, did you?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


Page 4033

1 Q. You personally saw them. And how did they set the houses on fire,

2 sir?

3 A. I saw the police. They had this, special guns that they threw

4 flames with those guns. They had them on their backs and they had the

5 form of beer bottles and that's how they set the houses on fire. I don't

6 know what was inside those bottles.

7 Q. Sir, how do you explain the fact that in one statement that you

8 gave consisting of ten pages, a supplemental statement that you gave

9 consisting of one page, and testimony before the Milosevic Trial Chamber,

10 you never once testified that you saw these houses being set ablaze. Why

11 is it you have now changed your testimony?

12 MR. SCULLY: Objection to the characterisation, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what's wrong with it?

14 MR. SCULLY: He hasn't changed his testimony; he's simply added

15 information to it.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Ivetic, that seems to be strictly

17 correct.


19 Q. Could you explain for us why you have added to your prior

20 testimony? Why did you not testify to this previously if in fact you saw

21 it with your own eyes?

22 A. I'm not adding anything. You're saying why I did not say this.

23 When I spoke in the trial of Slobodan Milosevic, time was limited and I

24 was not allowed to explain everything in detail. So if you ask the

25 question now, I'm completed -- I'm completing what I said in Milosevic's

Page 4034

1 trial; that's what I'm doing, Your Honour.

2 Q. How far were you from the burning houses, those that we are

3 talking about now, the ones that you saw on the 25th of March in the

4 morning?

5 A. On the 25th of March, these were a little further away. My

6 brothers were there in that area, about 600 metres as the crow flies.

7 Q. What time of day did you see them being set ablaze or night, if it

8 was night?

9 A. It was not important to know. There was so many gun-shots around.

10 It was an offensive of the army and the police together. They were

11 walking and shooting and burning and shelling, killing people. There were

12 lots of gun-shots and the flames, you could see the flames.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Berisha, I'm afraid I'm now confused. On what

14 date do you say that you saw police using flame-throwers to set houses on

15 fire?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both on the 25th, 26th, 28th, 27th

17 as well.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, when you were asked: How far were you from

19 the burning houses on the 25th, you said that they were about 600 metres

20 away and it was your brothers that were in the area.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: So are you saying you observed this from 600 metres

23 away?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The smoke and the flames could be

25 seen even farther away, not the 600 metres that I mentioned. Even the

Page 4035

1 gun-shots --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that entirely. It's the

3 identification of who's actually setting fire to the houses that's an

4 issue. And a moment ago I got the impression you actually saw people

5 using flame-throwers to set houses on fire. I'm now getting the

6 impression you didn't actually see it with your own eyes, and it's

7 important we're clear about this.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I described the event not only of

9 the 25th, but also 26th, 27th, 28th, the 3rd of April, and so on. If we

10 focus only on the 25th, as I said, on the 25th I was 600 metres away as

11 the crow flies and it was 6.00 in the morning. I saw the smoke and the

12 flames and I heard the gun-shots. I did not say that I was very close and

13 I saw them. The families who were there in the area saw what happened,

14 and among those families were my brothers.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: On what date did you personally see anyone actually

16 set fire to a house?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 3rd of April of 1999, when

18 the police forces, the Serb police forces, came to the place where I was

19 sheltered with my wife and my five children. They came shooting in our

20 direction, where I was. And they were setting the houses on fire. That's

21 where I saw directly and with my own eyes that they had these

22 flame-throwers on their backs.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic. Oh, sorry, is this a suitable time to

24 interrupt you?

25 MR. IVETIC: Yes, it is, Your Honour.

Page 4036

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

2 Well, Mr. Berisha, we have a half-hour break at this stage, so

3 please leave the courtroom and return at 4.00.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

7 [The witness entered court].

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Sir, I've got approximately two areas I want to ask you questions

11 about now, and then I will be completed. Now, you talk about the time

12 period when you left Suva Reka and in my version it's the eighth paragraph

13 of your statement, your written statement, you talk about how the column

14 you were in or the convoy you were in was stopped by a Milan Sipka. And

15 you claim that he ordered the whole column to return back to their homes.

16 Now, do you know what position Mr. Sipka had at that time within the

17 structure of the Serbian MUP?

18 A. I don't know whether I should explain how we were forced to leave

19 our homes.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I think -- confine the answer to the question

21 you've been asked. What position did Mr. Sipka hold in the structure of

22 the Serbian MUP?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that before 1998, that is

24 before the war, Milan Sipka was commander of the police station in

25 Suhareke. From there he was transferred to Prizren. I don't know what

Page 4037

1 position he held there; I have no information. And I know this as well,

2 that he was from Vojvodina.


4 Q. Now, would it be accurate to state that the SUP in Prizren was a

5 much larger police organ than the OUP in Suva Reka?

6 A. Suhareke was under the jurisdiction of the Prizren region.

7 Q. So when you say he was transferred to Prizren, would you regard

8 that as being a promotion of Mr. Sipka?

9 A. Of course the accused here behind you must know this.

10 Q. All right. Well, did you see -- on the occasion that you had to

11 deal with Mr. Sipka when he told the convoy to return to its homes, did he

12 have on any type of uniform?

13 A. Yes, a police uniform.

14 Q. And did that police uniform have any rank insignia?

15 A. I can't remember the rank insignia because it was getting darker,

16 but I know that it was dark blue camouflage uniform.

17 Q. Okay. Now I want to direct your attention when you did in fact

18 return to Suva Reka. You talk about an incident at page 5 of your

19 statement, the last paragraph, an incident that occurred on the 21st of

20 May where you identify people who ordered you to leave the house as being

21 Sinisa Andrejevic, who was a local paramilitary from Suva Reka, Nikica

22 Petkovic, brother of Zoran, and another person with the last name Milisav

23 Gogic who were with the DB under Misko Nisevic. There was also another

24 guy by the name of Ramiz who was with the regular police.

25 Now, I want to ask you about this person, Mr. Nisevic, did he wear

Page 4038

1 a uniform on that occasion.

2 A. I did not meet Nisevic that day. The inspector of the state

3 security, while with regard to the group of policemen who came from door

4 to door, from house to house, and ordered the civilian population to leave

5 their houses in ten minutes and get to the main road and go to Albania.

6 This was a strict order. The whole population had to leave and go to

7 Albania.

8 Q. You stated that the gentleman came in a red Golf motor vehicle.

9 Am I correct that the red Golf motor vehicle did not have any insignia of

10 the police on it?

11 A. It -- you are talking about Sinisa Andrejevic, who was a policeman

12 in Suhareke, and all the other ones were policemen as well. They were in

13 a civilian vehicle, and why they were in a civilian vehicle, it's -- I

14 don't know. I identified those people as policemen because they were

15 wearing police uniforms.

16 Q. Did you know this Ramiz person prior to this incident?

17 A. Yes, I knew them before, before that day, all of them.

18 Q. And in fact, Ramiz is an ethnic Muslim and not a Serb. Isn't that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. But not Albanian.

23 Q. I don't believe I said he was.

24 Now, the last question I have for you is essentially: Is it

25 accurate that after this event you were asked by Andrejevic why you had

Page 4039

1 not gone to help cover trenches that had been dug by the KLA. And I want

2 to ask you: Where were these KLA trenches located that you had been

3 ordered or asked to fill in? Were they in Suva Reka town or were they in

4 the villages?

5 A. No, they were not in Suhareke.

6 Q. Okay.

7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I think I'm finished with this witness.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 Mr. Aleksic.

10 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We have no

11 questions for this witness.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 Mr. Sepenuk.

14 MR. SEPENUK: No, we have no questions, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac -- Mr. Cepic.

16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Likewise, Your Honour, we don't have

17 any questions for this witness. Thank you.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 Mr. Petrovic.

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have no questions.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. No questions for this

23 witness.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 Mr. Scully.

Page 4040

1 MR. SCULLY: Thank you, Your Honour, very briefly.

2 Re-examination by Mr. Scully:

3 Q. Mr. Berisha, drawing your attention to the questions in

4 cross-examination about the temporary government in Kosovo. Did that

5 temporary government tell you what to investigate?

6 A. No, it didn't. The government didn't tell me what to do. I

7 explained earlier that we had to identify all the people who were missing,

8 and we had family members of those people who were missing wanted to find

9 where they were, people from Suhareke and the surrounding areas.

10 Q. Thank you. In deciding to put a person on your list of missing

11 and killed, what information did you review?

12 A. In the beginning when the infantry of the -- of NATO troops

13 entered Kosova and then also they entered Suhareke, and because I was all

14 the time there, I did not leave Suhareke, with the exception of the period

15 from the 23rd of May to the 12th of June. So when the NATO forces

16 entered, we knew as family members what tragedy had happened to our

17 family. So I first went and looked at the houses for any traces of the

18 crimes, and then I went and looked at the grave sites. Some of them had a

19 plank with initials of the victims. Then there were others that had the

20 code NN, and because the family members started to dig up these grave

21 sites to find their loved ones - and I feared that the traces of the

22 crimes would be lost - I contacted the Tribunal's office in Prizren and

23 asked for their help, for them to help us to dig up those grave sites and

24 help us identify the missing persons.

25 Q. Did you also talk to living family members about whether they had

Page 4041

1 seen the missing people?

2 A. Yes. When the family members returned from Albania, we kept

3 constant contact with them and I got information from them. From June

4 1999 to this day, I still keep in contact with family members. And I'm

5 working for the investigation of the cases of the people who are missing,

6 because even today in the municipality of Suhareke there are over 160

7 people still missing.

8 Q. Drawing your attention now to the period of January to May of

9 1999, did you ever see a member of the KLA active in the town of Suva

10 Reka?

11 A. No, never. The KLA was not present then and it was never present

12 in the city of -- in the town of Suhareke.

13 Q. Final couple questions, Mr. Berisha. During cross-examination you

14 described a red Golf that carried regular police officers. Did you ever

15 see any other civilian vehicles used by regular police officers in Suva

16 Reka?

17 A. Yes, that's correct. They used those vehicles, but they also

18 robbed the vehicles of the Albanian population. I don't know where --

19 when exactly this was, but it was either on the 8th or the 9th of April

20 when we were told to return, and we returned. And Ismet Hoxha's vehicle

21 was parked in my courtyard -- my brother's courtyard, and these policemen

22 who were in the red Golf, they took the car. And I was there, I saw it.

23 And there were many other cases when they looted the vehicles and they

24 even told the people to get off the cars and took their cars away. On the

25 4th of April, when we were in the convoy in the village of Korisha, my

Page 4042

1 cousin, Ismet Berisha, his vehicle was taken. His mother who was 90 years

2 old was forced to get off the car, and then they took the car.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berisha.

4 MR. SCULLY: Your Honours, I have no further questions, other than

5 to move to admit the exhibits.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

7 Now, Mr. Berisha, that completes your evidence. Thank you for

8 coming again to the Tribunal to give it and to add to the information you

9 had given before. You're now free to leave.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, the next Prosecution witness is

12 Mrs. Aferdita Hajrizi, and I'm going to change places with Mr. Scully.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: This is also 92 bis (D)?

14 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, Your Honours, this is a 92 bis (D) witness.

15 She testifies about events in the municipality of Mitrovica, and the

16 paragraphs relevant to her testimony are 72(f), 73, 76, and 77 of the

17 indictment.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mrs. Hajrizi.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: You can stand up. The microphone will catch you.

23 Would you please make the solemn declaration to tell the truth by reading

24 aloud the document which will now be placed before you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 4043

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

3 Ms. Kravetz.

4 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examination by Ms. Kravetz:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Hajrizi, could you please state your name for

9 the record?

10 A. I am Aferdita Hajrizi.

11 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, in 1999 were you living in the town of Mitrovica in

12 Mitrovica municipality?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you provide a statement to the Office of the Prosecution on

15 3rd June 1999 and later amended that statement on 31 January of 2002?

16 A. There were only some corrections that I made with reference to the

17 translation, no other corrections.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Did you provide a second statement dated 20th

19 August, 2001, which you also later made small corrections on 6th March

20 2002?

21 A. Yes, yes. Again, corrections in the translation.

22 Q. And in 2002, in April 2002, did you testify before this Tribunal

23 in the Milosevic case?

24 A. Yes.

25 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour -- Your Honours, I would like to tender

Page 4044

1 this witness's 92 bis evidence under the current Rule 92 ter. The

2 different statements have been assigned different exhibit numbers, so

3 these are P2319, P2320 --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: You need to tell me which is which. 2319 is

5 which?

6 MS. KRAVETZ: Is the first statement dated June 1999.


8 MS. KRAVETZ: P2320 is the second statement with its addendum of

9 6th March, 2002.


11 MS. KRAVETZ: P2321 is the transcript of her previous testimony in

12 the Milosevic case.


14 MS. KRAVETZ: And there's also an exhibit attached to that

15 transcript which is P51, which is a file from the Mitrovica court relating

16 to the events that this witness describes in her evidence.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And the corrections on the 6th of March, 2002?

18 MS. KRAVETZ: These are together with the second statement of 20th

19 August, so this is Exhibit 2320.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: And the corrections on the 31st of January, 2002?

21 MS. KRAVETZ: That is Exhibit 2319. The statements have been put

22 together with their respective amendments.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.


25 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, your written -- your statements and your prior

Page 4045

1 testimony are before this Court. I'm going to ask you some very specific

2 questions on your evidence, and I would like you, if possible, to give me

3 short answers so we can proceed efficiently today.

4 In your statement of 3 -- 3rd June, 1999, you describe how your

5 husband Agim Hajrizi and two members of your family were murdered in your

6 home on the night between 24th and 25th March, 1999. I understand from

7 your statement that your late husband was at the time the chairman of a

8 trade union association, a local trade union association in Mitrovica. Is

9 that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was this association working to defend the rights of Albanian

12 workers in Mitrovica?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And would it be correct to say that your husband, Mr. Agim

15 Hajrizi?

16 A. Agim --

17 Q. I'm sorry for mispronouncing the name. Agim Hajrizi was quite a

18 prominent figure in the Albanian community in Mitrovica?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Are you aware of any other activists being murdered around the

21 same date as the murder of your husband -- in -- I'm speaking about the

22 town of Mitrovica?

23 A. Yes -- [In English] May I?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. [Interpretation] On the very same night, that is the night between

Page 4046

1 24th and 25th of March, 1999, another activist was killed, the chairman of

2 the LDK for Mitrovica municipality, Latif Berisha, on the same night when

3 my husband, my son, and my mother-in-law were killed. It was just an

4 hour, I would say, between the two killings.

5 Q. And when did you find out about the killing of Latif Berisha?

6 A. I found out about the killing of Latif Berisha in the morning of

7 25th of March when the local radio in Kosova broadcast the news that two

8 prominent activists from Mitrovica were killed, namely Latif Berisha,

9 chairman of the LDK in Mitrovica; and Agim Hajrizi, chairman of the

10 Independent Kosova Trade Union Assembly and his 60-years-old mother,

11 Nazmija and his 11 and a half-year-old son Ilir. This is the news that

12 was broadcast on local radios and I heard it in the morning.

13 Q. Did both of these killings occur shortly after the beginning of

14 the NATO bombings in the area?

15 A. I have also stated this in my previous statements that as you may

16 know the night of the 24th of March, 1999, was the night when the NATO

17 forces began their bombing campaign against the Serb aggression that was

18 exercised on the Albanian population, and all this pressure on the

19 Albanian population intensified from that night on.

20 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, I'm --

21 A. The pressure exercised on the Albanian population took years. It

22 was old, not from that moment.

23 Q. I want to focus specifically on your first statement, the one on

24 3rd June. You describe in quite some detail the murders of your family

25 members, and I don't want to go into all that detail here. But on page 6

Page 4047

1 of your statement you say that you saw six men arrive to your house

2 dressed in blue camouflage uniforms and wearing black berets on the night

3 of 24 March. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Were you able to recognise any of these men?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who were you able to recognise among these six men?

8 A. I stated with full responsibility in my statement - and I will

9 repeat it today - that on that night there were two vehicles parked in

10 front of my house, they are of dark colour. The two drivers were inside

11 these vehicles, and six persons, Serb paramilitary police members, were in

12 my courtyard. I could recognise two of them Nenad Pavicevic who was my

13 first neighbour, and his friend Dejan [as interpreted]. I didn't know his

14 last name. And two others, Dejan Savic and Ratko Antonijevic were

15 identified by my husband. And the fifth and the sixth, we did not

16 recognise them. We did not know them, neither me nor my husband. The

17 last two names, Ratko and Dejan, have stuck in my mind because my

18 husband's last words were, and I quote: "If anything happens to me,

19 because you know that they are not this by accident, wearing uniforms and

20 heavily armed, they're here to commit a crime."

21 I remember these words, and that's why I'm stating this with full

22 responsibility before you.

23 Q. Mrs. --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: The two -- of the two that you recognised you've

25 given one of them today the name "Dejan." Is that what you meant to say?

Page 4048

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The person that I recognised,

2 his name was Boban, and the other one Nenad, while Dejan --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Just hold on. It may have been a problem with the

4 translation, but you've now clarified it and we can now move on. Thank

5 you.


7 Q. Mrs. --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, there is one other thing before we move on.

9 In the court in Mitrovica, a person accused there was acquitted called

10 Gligorovski. Is that correct?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His name was Lazar Gligorovski.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, in the first statement you gave about this,

13 the one that Ms. Kravetz is asking you about, you referred to a person

14 called Djordjevski. Is that a different person?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is why I made the

16 correction. Gligorovski should stand for Djordjevski.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

18 Ms. Kravetz.


20 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, you just referred to these men as Serb paramilitary

21 policemen. What did you mean by that when you said that they were Serb

22 paramilitary policemen that arrived to your house?

23 A. What I meant was the following. I will explain it to you. For

24 decades in the streets of Mitrovica and in the streets throughout Kosova,

25 we were used to seeing military and police uniforms of the day. And what

Page 4049

1 do I mean with the word of "the day"? Meaning while on duty they were

2 wearing another uniform.

3 Your Honours, if you only saw those paramilitary uniforms that we

4 saw at night, if you only saw members of the paramilitary formation Black

5 Hand, their uniforms, their weapons, their knives, terrible knives, you

6 would be able to understand who these paramilitaries were and what was the

7 difference between the uniforms of the ordinary police and the uniforms of

8 the paramilitaries and the Serbian army.

9 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, I'm going to rephrase the question. You said you

10 identified two of these persons, one of them by the name of Nenad

11 Pavicevic. Did you know if this person was a police officer in

12 Mitrovica?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the second person you identified, that you were able to

15 recognise that night --

16 A. Both of them, both of them. Nenad Pavicevic and his friend Boban,

17 they both were policemen of the Yugoslav police. They were serving in the

18 Yugoslav police. They had police uniforms.

19 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Hajrizi --

20 A. The same is true for the others that I mentioned.

21 Q. Now, out of these four persons, are you aware of whether there

22 were any prosecutions later against these persons in connection with the

23 murder of your husband?

24 A. After I returned from Holland in December 1999, two or three

25 months later there was a hearing at which Lazar Gligorovski was being

Page 4050

1 tried who was imprisoned at that time --

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... for the four persons you

3 mentioned that were --

4 A. Yes, yes. In addition to Lazar Gligorovski, Nenad Pavicevic was

5 being tried in absence. They didn't know anything about his whereabouts.

6 Q. Did you testify in those proceedings?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And are you aware of what was the outcome of -- of that trial, if

9 anyone was convicted as a result of that trial?

10 A. Yes, I do. I do know. Nenad Pavicevic was sentenced to 20 years

11 of imprisonment in absentia.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, this -- the judgement in this case is

14 before Your Honours as Exhibit P51. It's part of this witness's 92 bis

15 material.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Before -- yeah, thank you.

17 Before you move on, though, just going back to the previous issue

18 where we were given a description of paramilitary uniforms, the witness

19 then appeared to say that all of these people were members of the regular

20 police force. What is the evidence that you're seeking to lead on this?

21 MS. KRAVETZ: I'm understanding from the witness's testimony that

22 these four -- four of the six -- at least the four persons she was able to

23 identify were regular police officers who -- went into her house, but it

24 also appears that she refers to them as being police -- or paramilitary

25 police.

Page 4051

1 JUDGE BONOMY: She said that: "Both of them, Pavicevic and his

2 friend Boban were both policemen of the Yugoslav police. They were

3 serving in the Yugoslav police. They had police uniforms. The same is

4 true for the others that I mentioned."

5 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm confused. I don't know who it's being

7 suggested was a paramilitary police officer.

8 MS. KRAVETZ: I can maybe try to clarify this with the witness.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


11 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, you mentioned just a couple of minutes ago that the

12 four persons you were able to recognise were police officers in Mitrovica.

13 Are you stating -- or is it your evidence that these men were also members

14 of a paramilitary group or what you understand to be a paramilitary group,

15 a non-regular armed group?

16 A. Again, I'm stating with full responsibility that these two that I

17 recognised were members or employees of the Serbian police. However,

18 considering the fact that maybe ten times during the day I have seen him

19 with regular police uniform, since he was my neighbour, and on the night

20 of the crime I've seen him with a paramilitary uniform, with that dark

21 blue uniform, a horrifying uniform, it clearly shows that even within

22 the ranks of regular police there were infamous paramilitary groups

23 operating.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: But, Mrs. Hajrizi, we have heard evidence that

25 dark blue camouflage uniforms were worn by the regular police. Are you

Page 4052

1 saying that they were only worn by people you understood to be

2 paramilitaries?

3 THE WITNESS: [No verbal response]


5 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, you have to speak an answer. The transcript is not

6 going to reflect your answer if you don't speak into the microphone.

7 A. Your Honours, the ordinary police uniform, the uniform of the

8 Yugoslav police consisted of a light blue colour shirt and dark blue

9 trousers. The uniform that was worn by paramilitaries was something

10 different; it was dark blue, camouflage, in dark black patterns, with

11 black berets. And the weapons that the police, the ordinary police of the

12 Yugoslav army carried, was different from the weapons that the

13 paramilitaries carried. I do not recognise all the types of weapons, and

14 I do not want to do that. But you could tell that they were different as

15 for their shape and size.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what you've described earlier was that they

17 were -- I think you referred to carrying knives. Is that ... Are these

18 the different weapons you were referring to?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The paramilitary police that carried

20 out the massive expulsion of the Albanian population from Kosova carried

21 long weapons with knives at the top, and they carried knives on their

22 belt.


24 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi --

25 A. [In English] Yes.

Page 4053

1 Q. -- can I ask a question. Are you aware whether these persons you

2 are describing as paramilitaries worked together with the persons you

3 described as regular policemen? If you don't know, you can state so.

4 A. [Interpretation] If you could repeat the question, please.

5 Q. You have described some men as paramilitaries in dark blue

6 camouflage uniform, and you said the regular police wore solid blue

7 uniform. Are you aware of whether these men that you described as

8 paramilitaries, if they worked together or jointly with the men that you

9 described as regular police. And again, if you don't know, you can say

10 so.

11 A. I don't know about others. As for the two that I recognised and

12 identified, yes, I can say they did.

13 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Well, I should try to help in clarification.

14 MS. KRAVETZ: Okay.

15 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Now, are you trying to -- you know English,

16 please. Are you trying to tell us that some of the people from the police

17 whom you have called as infamous people like Boban they later changed

18 their dress so that they were not -- they were camouflaged or they did not

19 show up themselves and joined this paramilitary group with a black dress

20 for this specific purpose, and not that en masse the police force used to

21 change its dress and become a paramilitary police. It's only a few

22 infamous people in the police who came and joined these type of scare

23 groups. Are you saying this?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


Page 4054

1 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Hajrizi. I would like to move on. I'm not going

2 to explore that subject further because you address the murders of your

3 family members in quite some detail in your statement, so I'd like to move

4 on to your second statement of 20th August, 2001. On page 3 of that

5 statement you say that in the days following the murders you moved to the

6 neighbourhood of Tavnik [Realtime transcript read in error "Travnik"] in

7 Mitrovica. Can you tell me what was the ethnic composition of the Tavnik

8 neighbourhood in Mitrovica?

9 A. It's not Travnik, Tavnik.

10 Q. Yes, I think it's misspelled, it's Tavnik.

11 A. Yes. The population was mainly Albanian.

12 Q. And when you moved there, where were you staying for the days

13 following your -- the murders at your house?

14 A. On the morning of the 25th of May, with the help of my brother, I

15 withdrew from the centre of town and went to the suburbs of the town in

16 the neighbourhood Tavnik, where my parents live. At that time my parents

17 were not there.

18 Q. Mrs. --

19 A. And I spent some days --

20 Q. Yeah, just finish -- you can finish. I'm sorry. You can finish

21 your answer.

22 A. I spent some days in that neighbourhood, and at the Yugoslav

23 police and army orders, we were forced to leave from the Tavnik

24 neighbourhood --

25 Q. You said you were forced to leave the Tavnik neighbourhood. When

Page 4055

1 did that happen?

2 A. We were forced. I repeat, we were forced leave. There were so

3 many killings going on around us. Many houses were set on fire. Many

4 people were taken away and imprisoned. There were so many voices of

5 people that we could hear; that showed us that somebody was forcing these

6 people to leave.

7 Q. I'm going to have to interrupt you again. I was asking for the

8 date when this occurred, that you were forced to leave Tavnik

9 neighbourhood.

10 A. This was exactly three days of my husband was killed. It was the

11 28th of March, 1999, when 70.000 inhabitants of Mitrovica and

12 unprecedented violence exercised by the army and police forces were forced

13 to leave their houses without knowing where they were going. They went

14 towards the direction of Zhabar village.

15 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I know I've reached the 30-minute time

16 that I have allocated for this witness. I'll just be another five or

17 seven minutes, if that's okay.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: That wasn't the order we made. You've used a lot

19 of time muddying waters that were otherwise apparently clear. Is it new

20 material that you seek to embark upon or are you simply going to be asking

21 questions that bring a repetition of what's in the statement?

22 MS. KRAVETZ: The questions I was going to put are covered by the

23 statement, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there's no need for you to extend your time.

25 MS. KRAVETZ: Okay. Well, I have no further questions then.

Page 4056

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 Mr. Zecevic.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, we will proceed in the following order:

4 General Lukic, General Pavkovic, General Lazarevic, Mr. Sainovic,

5 Mr. Milutinovic, General Ojdanic.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

7 Mr. Lukic.

8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Hajrizi. My name is Branko

11 Lukic, and I will have only a few questions for you. In your first

12 statement you talk about August 1998 when someone shouted at you from

13 across the street asking you what were you still doing in Kosovska

14 Mitrovica, after which that person fired a shot at your house, hitting it.

15 That person was subsequently arrested. Isn't that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Your lady neighbour told you that they only asked him why he had

18 used his rifle unless he was ready to carry out his duty. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. I did not understand the question. Could you repeat that, please.

21 I don't think it was clear.

22 Q. Yes, certainly. You say the following: "Three hours later the

23 police arrived and took the perpetrator into custody, but another lady

24 neighbour told me that they only asked him why he had used a rifle" --

25 A. Took what?

Page 4057

1 Q. Why he used his rifle?

2 A. I'm sorry, but the translation -- the interpretation is not good.

3 Sir, I don't understand the interpretation.

4 MR. LUKIC: I'll move on.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, yes. I understood it from the

6 English here. You mean my neighbour Merciba [phoen], who later told me

7 that the Serb police when they were taking Lazar Gligorovski down the

8 steps and beating him, they asked him: "Why did you not carry out your

9 duty when you took this rifle?" And you understand very well, I think,

10 what that means.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. The way I understand it is that he used his rifle improperly by

13 firing at your house. Do you agree with me or is your opinion different?

14 A. I can tell you a different thing. He was ordered to use his rifle

15 to kill people and not hit the house, but because his hand trembled and he

16 could not kill people, that was his problem. But his order -- the order

17 that he received was different.

18 Q. Did you hear any such orders being given to him, to kill people?

19 A. Where can the ordinary people hear about these orders that come

20 from Belgrade? Please. Maybe -- do you think you ever explain these

21 things to ordinary people?

22 Q. Are you trying to tell me that Gligorovski received his orders

23 directly from Belgrade to open fire at people?

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, you know that she's not saying that.

25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on.

Page 4058

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. In the Albanian version page 4, paragraph 1; in the English, page

4 3, paragraph 3; in the B/C/S, page 3, paragraph 4 you say: "The next day

5 a group of former trade union activists, who by that time became members

6 of the KLA, arrived at our house."

7 Do you remember having stated this?

8 A. It's not true, no. Are you talking about the night with Lazar

9 Gligorovski or the night of the crime?

10 JUDGE BONOMY: It's the night of Gligorovski that he is talking

11 about.

12 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The night with Gligorovski, what my

14 statement is correct.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Thank you. I wanted to ask you this: Were these members of the

17 same trade union to which your husband belonged to?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What trade union did they belong to?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Where had these people come from?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. How did you know them to be KLA members?

24 A. Of course a husband and wife talk about these things, and I didn't

25 want to know more, who they were, what they were, and from where they

Page 4059

1 were.

2 Q. Very well. Were they uniformed that evening when they came to

3 your house?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did they carry any weapons that night when they came to your

6 house?

7 A. I will say this very frankly. Never in my life have I seen a

8 member of the KLA, a soldier of the KLA, in uniform, and I did not see any

9 weapons. About those people, I heard from my husband that they were from

10 the KLA, but I knew them as ordinary people and they were not in uniform.

11 They did not carry weapons.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. And may I -- just one thing.

14 And in my statement, Your Honours, I've explained very clearly

15 that my late husband was never in favour of the use of violence against

16 any nationality, not even the Serb nationality, although there was lots of

17 violence exercised against him during all his life. He didn't want to

18 hurt anyone, and he never hurt anyone.

19 Q. Thank you. After your husband was killed an investigating judge

20 came to the scene. Is that right?

21 A. I did not see this. I was told this by other people.

22 Q. Just a moment, please. I'm trying to cut my cross-examination

23 short, as short as possible.

24 At several places in your statement you mention that it is Nenad

25 that you're afraid of. For example, in the second statement, English

Page 4060

1 version page 5, paragraph 6; Albanian version page 6, paragraph 4; and the

2 B/C/S version, page 5, paragraph 5 you say: "All the time I was afraid

3 that Nenad would find us and that he would kill my son."

4 Are you trying to say that Nenad has some special reasons to take

5 revenge on you or what is this about?

6 A. You've got my statement in front of you and you can read it.

7 Q. Thank you. In your second statement in the English version page

8 6, paragraph 7; in the Albanian version page 7, paragraph 6; in the B/C/S

9 version page 6, paragraph 4, you say that when you were leaving Kosovo, I

10 quote: "We were allowed to cross the border and retain our entire IDs and

11 money."

12 Was anybody mistreated when the border was being crossed then?

13 A. They took our travel documents -- the travel documents of the

14 people who had them, because myself and my two children did not have time

15 the night of the crime to take anything. So I did not have any ID on me.

16 So they took the IDs of the people who were with us. With regard to the

17 ill treatment en route, I can tell you this, that I have never travelled

18 such a long journey, that that day on 30th of April, 1999, when we got on

19 the special bus -- please, don't interrupt me.

20 [In English] What's happened? May I continue? Yes?

21 [Interpretation] So on the bus there was 16 or 17 or 18 buses

22 prepared by the Serbian army and police to displace, forcibly displace the

23 Albanian population --

24 MR. CEPIC: We haven't got translation on B/C/S. I do apologise

25 if I interrupt the witness, but the problem is with translation.

Page 4061

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there a problem with translation? Can the B/C/S

2 booth tell me whether they are effectively translating?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour, it should be okay.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: It sounds as though it's okay now. Please carry

5 on.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, may I just explain

7 something --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, hold on, please.

9 Yes, Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I asked the witness about when she

11 left Kosovo, that is to say when she left Kosovo, Serbia, going to

12 Montenegro. Did anyone take their documents or their money or their

13 valuables that time, whether anybody mistreated them. I am not asking

14 about when she left Montenegro going to Albania.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will repeat. I never travelled

16 such a long journey. On the 4th of April, 4th of April, 1999 --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Please stop for the moment. The question you're

18 being asked is about the bus journey which led to you being in Montenegro.

19 Now, your statement says: "We were allowed to cross the border and retain

20 our entire identities and money."

21 Now, is that correct?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the ones who had them.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: And the next question you were being asked was

24 whether anyone was mistreated.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 4062

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Lukic, no doubt you'll want to follow that

2 up.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. In your statement we do not see that you mentioned that anyone had

5 been mistreated.

6 A. You have my statement in front of you and you can see there very

7 well that all the males were told to get off the bus, and they were lined

8 up with the automatic rifles pointed to them. And they were forced to say

9 in Serbian whether they knew Serbian or not. "This is Serbia," and people

10 who did not know how to say that, they were hit. And that happened as

11 well to people who refused to do that. You have it in my statement.

12 Q. Unfortunately I can't find that, but let us move on --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's two paragraphs earlier.

14 MR. LUKIC: What I have in this statement, Your Honour, is:

15 [Interpretation] "The Serb forces that were watching what was going on

16 surrounded the bus station. They did not do us any harm."

17 JUDGE BONOMY: It's the next paragraph after that --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was about Mitrovica --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Please don't interrupt.

20 The next paragraph begins: "Arriving to the border of

21 Montenegro ..." Where it says: "The men were maltreated and

22 interrogated."

23 MR. LUKIC: Regarding HVK. I'll move on.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

Page 4063

1 Q. Madam, you returned to Kosovo in December 1999. Is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You described three incidents that happened to you and due to

4 which you live in fear. To what part of Kosovska Mitrovica did you

5 return, the northern or the southern part?

6 A. I live in the southern part.

7 Q. In the southern part of Kosovska Mitrovica, are there any Serbs

8 living there?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Can we therefore conclude that these threats and explosive devices

11 that were thrown could -- are not something that could have been done by

12 any Serb?

13 A. You know very well the guards at the bridge who control the two

14 sides of the town of Mitrovica.

15 Q. Is the bridge guarded by KFOR, the international force?

16 A. It was the period immediately after the war.

17 Q. You mentioned that that happened at the 18th of March, 2000. Is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes, but that also is immediately after the war, only a few months

20 after.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: The incidents you refer to are on the 18th and 19th

22 of March and also one in August, all in the year 2000. The first incident

23 you say were investigated by UNMIK. Now, are you saying that at that

24 stage the bridge between the two sides of Mitrovica was controlled by

25 Serbs?

Page 4064

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that UNMIK soldiers are

2 at the bridge, Your Honours. However, around-the-clock the Serb guards at

3 the bridge are there, and they patrol as the UNMIK police does.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Do these Serb patrols cross over into southern Mitrovica?

7 A. I have not seen that; therefore, I cannot say anything about that.

8 Q. As the third incident you mentioned the incident with Lazar

9 Gligorovski. Who arrested him, do you know?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Who tried him?

12 A. The chief Prosecutor was an international. He was from Sweden and

13 there was an Albanian judge, Mahmud Halimi. As for the others I don't

14 know. If I'm not mistaken.

15 Q. Do you know where this Lazar Gligorovski worked?

16 A. He was a painter.

17 Q. Lazar Gligorovski is not a Serb, right?

18 A. He was Macedonian, married to a Serb.

19 Q. That's not a crime, right?

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No further questions, Your Honour --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely not.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ...


24 MS. ZED: I believe Mr. Cepic will go next.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a change of plan.

Page 4065

1 Mr. Cepic.

2 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour. Last-moment

3 change. Thank you.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Hajrizi, I'm Djuro Cepic, one of the

6 attorneys on the Defence team of Mr. Lazarevic. I'm not going to put many

7 questions, but I would just like to clarify some things here tonight. You

8 were asked by the Prosecutor, and also in your statement you refer to what

9 happened on the morning of the 28th of March, 1999, when the Serb forces

10 entered the neighbourhood of Tavnik. You said the police, some

11 paramilitary units, and some soldiers, and that they started burning

12 houses on one side of the street. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Also, they were talking to people in Albanian. Is that right?

15 A. I didn't say they were talking to people in Albanian.

16 Q. This is your statement of the 20th of August, 2001. The page is

17 number 4 and paragraph 5 of the English translation. Albanian translation

18 page 4, paragraph 8; and B/C/S, page 4, paragraph 2. And in the third

19 line of that paragraph you say: "That is what people were being told in

20 Albanian." That is your very own statement, Madam.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: That is -- that is not what the English says. The

22 word "Albanian" looks wrong in the English version because it says: "The

23 people were told to go to," and then it says "Albanian." Now --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. I know

25 exactly what I said in my statement.

Page 4066

1 JUDGE BONOMY: And what did you say? You better repeat it for us

2 to make it absolutely clear.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Go to Albania," and not they talked

4 in Albanian. They said, and I quote: "This is not your country. This is

5 Serbia. Go to Albania."

6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I base my questions on

7 the B/C/S version of the statement, and I'm holding a copy in my hands. I

8 believe that it's a mistake in the translation, and even if there is any

9 doubt about this, I can show you my copy of --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't for a minute question, Mr. Cepic, that

11 there was a basis for your question being asked because the English is not

12 clear either. But once you read it a few times you can see, I think, what

13 is meant certainly by the English version. I think the witness has now

14 made the position clear for all of us.

15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. In this B/C/S

16 version the statement was pretty clear.

17 Q. These soldiers -- or rather these members of the police or

18 paramilitary units were at the other end of the street, pretty far away

19 from you. Is that right?

20 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

21 Q. These members of the Serb forces that entered the street were at

22 the other end of the street when you started leaving your house in your

23 brother's car. Isn't that right?

24 A. They were all around us. Please, just a moment.

25 [In English] May I?

Page 4067

1 [Interpretation] I would like for a moment to explain a sequence

2 of the picture that I have in my mind. If you only went through that for

3 just a small moment, you would know exactly how a human being feels in

4 situations like that.

5 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Hajrizi. We have that described in detail in the

6 statements you gave and also in the transcript of your testimony in the

7 Milosevic proceedings. Thank you for this. Now, what am I asking? Were

8 these persons aged between 30 and 40, even perhaps up to 50?

9 A. Are you referring to the police and the army?

10 Q. Yes, those who entered your street. I'm asking about them.

11 A. What do you think? Did I have the strength to see and tell what

12 their age was? That precisely?

13 Q. You were in shock then and you couldn't really see properly, and

14 you were in fear. Isn't that right?

15 A. After everything that I've been through, it is quite normal.

16 Q. At that moment you could not really tell precisely because of the

17 death of your husband, the death of your son, and you were simply trying

18 to keep your other child alive, and you wanted to leave the neighbourhood

19 of Tavnik as soon as possible; right?

20 A. Their fate is registered here in my mind, and I can describe them

21 precisely.

22 Q. A few moments ago you told us that you were in a state of shock

23 and that you could not see everything very precisely.

24 A. To be upset, in shock, that's a different thing, but to be

25 unconscious, that is a different thing. Regardless of the pain that I was

Page 4068

1 feeling, I was very conscious and aware.

2 Q. You did not notice that they were wearing bandannas around their

3 heads?

4 A. I was not asked this question, otherwise I would have answered it.

5 Q. I'm just asking you now.

6 A. I already said in the beginning, their faces were painted, they

7 had knives on the top of their rifles. Isn't this enough? Black gloves,

8 terrifying --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the gloves are without

10 fingers.

11 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Thank you, Madam. Thank you, Mrs. Hajrizi.

13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. Thank

14 you.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Aleksic -- Ms. Zed, sorry, do you have

16 questions?

17 MS. ZED: Your Honour, I may have one or two questions, should I

18 start now?

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you do have questions?

20 MS. ZED: Yes.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's hear what they are then.

22 Cross-examination by Ms. Zed:

23 Q. Hello, Mrs. Hajrizi. My name is Nadia Zed, and I'm representing

24 General Pavkovic here today. And I just have a few very -- very, very

25 brief questions just for clarification. Now, I understand -- and you've

Page 4069

1 stated it today, earlier today, that your husband was a very peaceful man

2 and he did not condone any violence. But given his high position in the

3 community, did he have occasion to meet with KLA members?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And based on your discussions with your late husband and your own

6 experiences, would you agree with me that there was a fairly active KLA

7 presence in your village?

8 A. I don't know, and I did not live in a village. I lived in my

9 town.

10 Q. Sorry about that. I meant your town.

11 You mentioned in your statement that there were some forces

12 wearing green camouflage uniforms that had their faces covered in green

13 masks. Can you please describe what those masks looked like.

14 A. This was an army, and we were used to seeing the Yugoslav army.

15 But that kind of army we didn't see before that date, 25th of March. You

16 could only see their eyes, nothing else, and this is what I saw while I

17 was holding my son, Arianit, wrapped in a blanket and crossing the street

18 to go and leave the town.

19 Q. And just to clarify, this is different from the regular army that

20 you were used to seeing. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 MS. ZED: I have no further questions.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no questions for this

Page 4070

1 witness.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: No questions for this witness.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk.

5 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Ms. Kravetz, do you have any questions?

7 MS. KRAVETZ: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: What about the references on page 4 of the

9 statement and Mr. Cepic's cross-examination?

10 MS. KRAVETZ: About the neighbourhood of Tavnik?

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's about the police paramilitary and VJ.

12 MS. KRAVETZ: I can try and clarify that with this witness.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: It would be helpful to us if that could be

14 clarified.

15 Re-examination by Ms. Kravetz:

16 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, on page 4 of your statement you state that on 28th

17 of March you saw different forces in the neighbourhood of Tavnik and you

18 describe them as consisting of police, paramilitary, and VJ. Can you

19 provide some more detail or any sort of description as to the forces that

20 you saw there, the uniforms, the type of equipment they had, or weapons?

21 A. I told you, Madam, the uniform was different from the regular

22 police. I don't recognise weapons, as I told you, but on top of their

23 guns there were these big knives. And on both sides of their belt there

24 were big knives, which was not a normal thing for normal policemen to

25 carry. And they had painted faces, which shows that this was not the

Page 4071

1 police of a normal state.

2 Q. Mrs. Hajrizi, you described -- you first say that you saw police.

3 What do you mean in your statement when you say you saw police in the

4 neighbourhood of Tavnik on 20 -- I'm referring to 28th March.

5 A. Yes, there were policemen as well, policemen in regular uniform,

6 the normal one that we used to see before. So not all of them wore the

7 same uniforms.

8 Q. Now, you have spoken about men in -- that had painted faces and

9 that have knives, I understand, at the end of their weapons. Are these

10 the men that you're referring to in your statement as paramilitaries?

11 A. Yes, yes. The most terrifying people I have ever seen in my life.

12 Q. Then you say that you also saw VJ. What do you mean when you say

13 you saw VJ forces consisting of VJ on the 28th of March?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What do you mean by that when you say you saw the VJ?

16 A. I said it earlier. Not soldiers, not ordinary soldiers that we

17 used to see before. On their heads you could only see their eyeballs,

18 nothing else. And the same kind of gun that -- the knife at the end of

19 it. I don't know what it's called -- as a matter of fact, I don't want to

20 know what it's called.

21 Q. And these people you just described are the ones you referred to

22 in your statement as being VJ members or members of the VJ?

23 A. What do you mean by "VJ" -- yes, yes.

24 Q. You just answered yes. I'm not sure if you were responding to my

25 question. I'm just trying to clarify for the Court. When you say you saw

Page 4072

1 this men wearing masks and with the knife, are you -- is this what you --

2 the type of forces that you referred to as VJ in your statement?

3 A. Madam, the police uniform is blue. The military uniform is green.

4 And then I explained earlier what they looked like.

5 Q. And a final question. You saw all these different type of forces

6 in the neighbourhood of Tavnik on 28th March; is that what you're stating?

7 A. Yes. This was the en masse expulsion of the inhabitants of

8 Mitrovica, about 70.000 of them that were expelled forcibly from the town

9 that day.

10 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Hajrizi.

11 MS. KRAVETZ: I have no further questions for the witness.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mrs. Hajrizi, these questions are about events on

15 the 28th of March, and one of the things you say in your statement

16 is: "In the street where we stayed, they started in one end to burn

17 houses and told people to leave immediately."

18 Now, who was it or which forces was it that did that, started to

19 burn the houses and told people to leave immediately?

20 A. The Serb army and the police, the Serbian police, and the

21 paramilitary police --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, when --

23 A. -- forces.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: When you talk of the Serb army, can you tell us how

25 they were dressed and equipped?

Page 4073

1 A. I said that they had green uniforms, military uniforms, in

2 military colours, but it was not the usual one because they had these

3 things on their heads that you could only see their eyes. And then at the

4 end of the -- their guns, they had those knives, the bayonet, now I know

5 what they're called, and that was not normal before.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mrs. Hajrizi, that brings your evidence to an

9 end. Thank you again for coming again to the Tribunal to give this

10 evidence and for expanding it today. You're now free to leave.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE BONOMY: An application was made to revoke protective

14 measures for a forthcoming witness, K75. There will be a written order

15 issued granting that motion.

16 We'll resume tomorrow at 9.00.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.40 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of

19 September, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.