Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4199

1 Thursday, 28 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused Pavkovic not present]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, I notice that Mr. Pavkovic is not

7 here, and this may be something that has happened at the last minute I

8 gather.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I've only known about it for about four or five

10 minutes, Your Honour. Apparently it has something to do with a medical

11 situation. That's all I can tell you. I have no communication with him

12 that he's waiving his appearance. We're trying to get that done right

13 now.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: There's no reason to think that the evidence which

15 is likely to be led today will be of particular significance to his

16 criminal responsibility, I imagine, and I doubt if there's any reason why

17 we shouldn't just carry on. Obviously, if there was an issue arising out

18 of it you would have the opportunity to raise the matter and re-call a

19 witness if that were to prove necessary.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think that may be true with regard

21 to the first witness; I'm not sure it is with regard to the second.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, by the second you may have more information.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: I think that's no doubt the case.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I take it you're content we carry on for the

25 moment?

Page 4200

1 MR. ACKERMAN: You're Honour, I can't represent that he is waiving

2 his appearance, so I am not content that we carry on, but if that's Your

3 Honour's wish, you go right ahead. I'm not agreeing to it.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, well, you don't state any specific

5 objection. I note also that you don't consent to the proceedings in his

6 absence and we'll consider the position briefly.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

8 [Trial Chamber confers].

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, you want to say something else?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we -- we have actually been in

11 communication with someone named Maja at the detention centre who says

12 that he's going for some kind of an examination and that she will send --

13 she will secure and send a waiver. When that happens, I don't know, but

14 that's the latest information we have.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, are you wanting time to make that

16 arrangement?

17 MR. ACKERMAN: No, I think it's -- I think it has not changed

18 anything, except I'm giving you some more information. It hasn't changed

19 my position, but I think there'll be a waiver forthcoming.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you for that clarification, Mr. Ackerman. We

22 are satisfied that it's appropriate for us to proceed to hear the evidence

23 of the next witness.

24 Mr. Hannis.

25 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. The next witness will be

Page 4201

1 Reshit Salihi. And, Your Honour, we'll need your assistance in

2 administering the oath to this witness.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: And paragraphs, Mr. Hannis?

4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, he is going to give evidence regarding

5 events in Celine village, Orahovac municipality, regarding paragraphs 25

6 through 32, 72(a) and 77 (a) and (d). He is a 92 bis (D) witness.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that becomes now 92 ter, I think, Mr. Hannis.

8 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: The way that rule reads, you probably have to

10 have -- or you do have to have him verify the accuracy of his transcript.

11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that's correct, and we've had some

12 discussion about that now in our office. Now, how we deal with that when

13 there is not a -- there -- this witness does not read. There is not a

14 transcript in his language, and there is an audio tape or a video-tape but

15 he has not had a chance to review that. I think that I will just simply

16 confirm with him that he gave true and accurate testimony at the time.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I think that's all I would expect of you.

18 Can we have the witness, please.

19 MR. HANNIS: And while we're waiting for him to come in,

20 Your Honour, I would indicate that the transcript is Exhibit 2337, that

21 was his testimony on the 19th and 22nd of April, 2002.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 MR. HANNIS: And his written statement was incorporated in that

24 testimony. The written statement including a supplement was -- is our

25 Exhibit 2336. It's referred to in the Slobodan Milosevic transcript as

Page 4202

1 Exhibit 104 and is referred to at page 3545.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Salihi.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to all.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please repeat the following words after

5 me: I solemnly declare.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: That I will speak the truth.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I will speak the truth.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: The whole truth.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: And nothing but the truth.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

16 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Examination by Mr. Hannis:

20 Q. Mr. Salihi, good morning.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. You've previously testified in this Tribunal in the Slobodan

23 Milosevic case; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And our records indicate that that was on the 19th and 22nd of

Page 4203

1 April, 2002. Is that correct?

2 A. On the 25th of March. This all happened on the 25th of March.

3 Q. I understand, sir. I was referring to the date that you came here

4 to the Tribunal and testified in the Milosevic trial.

5 A. Oh, yes. I can't remember the date when I came here. I'm not

6 educated; I'm sorry.

7 Q. That's quite all right, sir. You recall testifying in that case,

8 and at that time did the -- did the testimony you give, was that your true

9 and accurate evidence about the events as you could remember them at that

10 time?

11 A. Yes, everything was true because I lived those things, I

12 experienced them.

13 Q. And in addition, part of your evidence in that trial included your

14 written statement to the ICTY, a written statement of 29 April 1999, and a

15 supplement of the 30th of January, 2002. When you came here this week to

16 testify in this trial, was -- were those prior statements read back to

17 you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And are you satisfied and can you tell this Court that your

20 evidence in those statements is true and accurate to the best of your

21 information and belief?

22 A. Yes, I agree. Everything is true.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we would tender Exhibits 2336, the

25 statements, and 2337, the transcript.

Page 4204

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.


3 Q. Now, Mr. Salihi, I understand you were born and raised in the

4 village of Celine in Rahovec municipality?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. And you're a farmer, you're the son of a farmer, and the grandson

7 of a farmer?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. In your evidence, sir, you described an attack that occurred on

10 your village on the 25th of March, 1999. How big --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How big was your village, about how many people?

13 A. There are about 250 houses in the village.

14 Q. And do you know approximately how many people lived in those

15 houses?

16 A. I could say over 2.500.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, in your statement of April 1999, in the English

18 version at page 2, paragraph 2; in the B/C/S, page 2, also paragraph 2,

19 you say that: About 3.00 that afternoon you saw a large number of Serb

20 policemen arriving. And you describe them as wearing --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You describe them as wearing black uniforms. Could you tell us

23 how you --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- able to identify them as policemen, rather than, say, VJ

Page 4205

1 soldiers?

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I object. That's kind of

3 leading, and I object to it, the "rather than VJ soldiers," part. There's

4 no indication of that.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Usually a leading question is one where the

6 examiner suggests the answer. Using that test, I doubt if it is leading,

7 Mr. Ackerman, but I think there's a point there.

8 Could we just be a bit more open in the question, Mr. Hannis.

9 MR. HANNIS: All right, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: I think because there are three categories that

11 we're all aware of here, three general categories regularly referred to by

12 people; to confine the question to two, I think, could have been arguably

13 seen as inappropriate.

14 MR. HANNIS: Well, I could either expand it or reduce it, I

15 suppose.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think reducing it is probably better.

17 MR. HANNIS: All right.

18 Q. Could you tell us how you were able to determine that they were

19 policemen?

20 A. Because we knew. We knew that they were policemen.

21 Q. And how did you know?

22 A. Well, I knew because I saw them when they entered the village, and

23 I knew that they were policemen.

24 Q. Now, at page 2 of the English at paragraph 4; in B/C/S, it's page

25 3, paragraph 2, you mention that after you had been in the forest for

Page 4206

1 three days, the next morning a group of about 40 policemen in blue

2 camouflage uniforms with white armbands came to the forest area where you

3 were. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. In your 1999 statement you -- you described them as wearing blue

6 berets, but you later on corrected that. Can you tell us now what your

7 best recollection is of what kind of head wear they were wearing.

8 A. The policemen you mean?

9 Q. Yes, yes.

10 A. They had all the colours, they changed.

11 Q. And you say that they fired their weapons in the air and got all

12 the people to come out. There were some 10.000 or so people.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The men --

15 A. Yes, because there were many refugees there as well.

16 Q. And you say at that time the men were separated from the women and

17 children.

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Were these policemen saying anything to you while this was going

20 on?

21 A. When they separated us, they lined us up. First of all, they

22 asked for money. Whatever we had in foreign currency they took away from

23 us and they wouldn't take any Serbian money.

24 Q. Did they say anything else to you during this process?

25 A. They were speaking amongst themselves, and we understood a little

Page 4207

1 bit. And they said if we won't have enough, then we'll use our knives and

2 cut them up.

3 Q. Mr. Salihi, do you -- do you understand Serbian?

4 A. Yes, yes, I understand it fairly well.

5 Q. At page 4 of the English, paragraph 5; page 5 of the B/C/S,

6 paragraph 3, at the time you made your statement in 1999 you didn't -- you

7 were not certain about the fate of your brother Faik and his family or of

8 the Zeqiri family, although you say while you were in Albania you had seen

9 a newspaper article, indicating that they were dead. Since then, have you

10 found out what happened to Faik and his family and the Zeqiri family?

11 A. Yes, I heard it very well when it happened. First of all, Bajram,

12 my eldest brother, was killed. Then the infantry came and they killed all

13 of them on the 25th of March at 4.00 p.m., and I knew about it. But when

14 I went to the forest I did not tell them. I told them only about Bajram.

15 I told them Bajram was killed, but about the other ones, I told them

16 later.

17 Q. So did you -- did you see that happen? I know you saw your

18 brother Bajram killed; you told us that before.

19 A. Yes. Yes, it was before my eyes that it happened. This is where

20 the bullet pierced him and he fell down.

21 Q. But as far as Faik and his family and the Zeqiri family, I

22 understood you heard shooting and you heard screams, but at the time you

23 did not actually see what happened to them. Is that correct?

24 A. I couldn't come out and see how they were being killed, but hear

25 everything because I was close by.

Page 4208

1 Q. When did you return to Kosovo after you had been deported,

2 approximately?

3 A. Home?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. From Albania?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Three months later.

8 Q. And did you discover anything about Faik and his family at that

9 time?

10 A. Yes, they were killed, and when the foreigners came and they took

11 their notes, everything they had to note down, and then we buried them.

12 Q. Did you discover their bodies when you returned then three months

13 later?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where did you find them?

16 A. The same place they were killed.

17 Q. The last place you had seen them?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was there a mosque in Celine?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And was it intact and undamaged on the 25th of March, 1999?

22 A. It was hit. The mosque was destroyed when they came in.

23 Q. Did you see it at the time it was destroyed or only after you

24 returned?

25 A. No, it was after I came from Albania that I saw it because I

Page 4209

1 couldn't see it then. I was leaving. But when we returned, we saw that

2 the whole village had been burned.

3 Q. Thank you,

4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I have no more questions for the

5 witness at this time.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

7 Mr. O'Sullivan.

8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, the order will be: General

9 Lazarevic, General Pavkovic, General Ojdanic, Mr. Sainovic, Mr.

10 Milutinovic, and General Lukic.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

12 Mr. Cepic.

13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Salihi. My name is Djuro

16 Cepic, one of the counsel for General Vladimir Lazarevic, and I will have

17 a few brief questions for you.

18 In your statement you described that on the 25th of March in the

19 morning the VJ -- some VJ units appeared around the village. That was at

20 5.00 a.m., as far as I could see from your statement; therefore, I hope

21 you will agree with me that at that time it was still dark in the village?

22 A. When we got up in the morning, when I woke up, we were surrounded

23 and we saw it was the army. They surrounded us, but they did not damage

24 the civilian --

25 Q. I only wanted to know whether it was dark.

Page 4210

1 A. Yes, yes, it was morning. It was morning, but it was not dark.

2 It was light.

3 Q. Thank you. Are you trying to tell us that by the end of March it

4 already gets lighter at 5.00 a.m.?

5 A. No, I can't tell you how it was like the morning I woke up. I

6 think it was light, and the army had surrounded the village. I don't know

7 what you're trying to do with this, whether it was dark or light; I don't

8 understand.

9 Q. Well, sir, I'm just trying to clarify some things, and I need

10 your assistance as regards that. On the 27th of September, a few days

11 ago that is, you had an interview with our learned friends from the OTP.

12 Is that correct?

13 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

14 Q. And everything you stated then is absolutely correct?

15 A. Yes, everything is correct. I experienced all those things.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I have no more questions for this

18 witness, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 Mr. Ackerman -- or, Mr. Aleksic.

21 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Salihi. My name is Aleksander

24 Aleksic, attorney-at-law, and together with my colleague Mr. John

25 Ackerman, I appear on behalf of Nebojsa Pavkovic. I have three brief

Page 4211

1 questions for you, and could you keep your answers brief, only a yes or

2 no. You described the events in detail. You did not have any contact

3 with the soldiers there, you yourself personally?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Thank you. The NATO bombing began on the 24th of March. Is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Up until then, things were peaceful in your village and there had

9 been no incidents. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, yes, there was no incident before.

11 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

12 further questions for this witness.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Aleksic.

14 Mr. Sepenuk.

15 MR. SEPENUK: Thank you, Your Honours. With the background of

16 late yesterday afternoon in mind, I'm pleased to advise the Trial Chamber

17 that I have conferred with my colleague Mr. Visnjic, and we indeed have no

18 questions for this witness.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 Mr. Visnjic?

21 MR. VISNJIC: I can confirm, Your Honour, no questions.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I consulted Mr. Visnjic as well; I have

24 no questions.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

Page 4212

1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, as usual I do have some questions.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Salihi. My name is Branko

7 Lukic, and together with Mr. Ivetic and Mr. Ogrizovic I appear on behalf

8 of Mr. Lukic before this Tribunal.

9 I wanted to go back to one part of your testimony today when my

10 learned friend Mr. Hannis attempted to clarify how you saw uniforms. When

11 he asked you how did you know that these men were policemen you said: I

12 saw them enter the village.

13 My question is the following: Did you personally know any of the

14 people who entered the village?

15 A. We didn't know them personally, but we knew that they were

16 policemen. How could we talk to them? But I know that they were

17 policemen.

18 Q. Thank you. At page 8, line 7 you say in your answer: They had

19 all the different colours they changed. Does this mean that irrespective

20 of the colour of uniforms, all uniformed men to you are policemen?

21 A. No, the policemen were clear to us. We knew that they were

22 policemen, but they were split up in groups. And they had different

23 uniforms, but they were policemen.

24 Q. Did you notice any insignia on those uniforms?

25 A. They had red ribbons on the right arm.

Page 4213

1 Q. And anything on the uniform itself?

2 A. I couldn't -- we couldn't look at them very attentively. You

3 know, we couldn't raise our eyes up to them; we didn't dare.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you. Were these uniforms black, as you've told

5 us, or were they of any other colours?

6 A. They had black uniforms, but they had also other colours. They

7 kept changing. We saw different colours every ten minutes. To me, it

8 doesn't make any difference.

9 Q. Very well. I would like to go back briefly to the point in time

10 when you saw the armed men approaching you. As I was reading your

11 statements, I wasn't clear whether you had stayed at your farm or whether

12 you had hid in a house that was close to your farm or whether you had gone

13 to the forest. What of the three things happened?

14 A. Look here, when it became dark, then I went to the forest. But

15 until then I didn't dare leave my house because they might have killed me.

16 They were very close to where I was.

17 Q. In other words, you were in your house?

18 A. Not inside the house, but outside because we didn't dare stay

19 inside for fear that they might set the house on fire, because this is

20 what they usually did.

21 Q. What did you do before the noon while these troops were

22 approaching you?

23 A. Nothing, nothing. We just stayed and waited, fearing that they

24 might come and do to us the worst, as they usually did to other people.

25 They killed them.

Page 4214

1 Q. The farm that you were at, was it surrounded by a wall?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you please tell us how high the wall was.

4 A. About 2 metres high.

5 Q. You say that Bajram got up, he stood up and then he was hit. What

6 was the position of your brother, Bajram, before he was hit?

7 A. He got up to see what was happening, and there was a house about

8 30 metres away from us and the policemen were there. When Bajram got up

9 to see, just to see what was going on, they killed him.

10 Q. At that moment, was Bajram standing on the ground?

11 A. When he was killed, of course he fell on the ground.

12 Q. Before he was hit, was he standing on the ground?

13 A. All of us were standing on the ground.

14 Q. How is it possible for somebody standing on the ground to be hit

15 in the stomach if at that time he was hiding behind a 2-metre-high wall?

16 A. When Bajram was killed, my brother, he was outside the wall. You

17 must understand me well. He was outside a wall at the corner of the wall,

18 and they killed him.

19 Q. Were you also outside of the wall?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What about the others who were with you, were they also outside of

22 the wall?

23 A. Those who were killed were outside the wall. I myself was inside

24 the wall. The difference between us was just 1 metre; the wall divided

25 us.

Page 4215

1 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, distance between us.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Did you see when your brother Bajram was hit, did you see that

4 happen?

5 A. He was about 2 metres far from me, of course I saw him.

6 Q. Wasn't there a 2-metre-high wall between the two of you then, and

7 you were on one side of the wall and then there is the 2-metre-high wall

8 and he is on the other side of that wall. And you could see him stand up

9 and you could see him being hit; is that what you're saying?

10 A. Look here, don't provoke me here. I told you he was just a metre

11 away from the wall. When he stood up, they hit him and killed him. Don't

12 tell me 1 metre, 2 metres, please don't provoke me because I came here to

13 tell you the truth.

14 Q. I am asking you because I want to hear the truth from you. Can

15 you please explain, we have just heard from you that you were within the

16 courtyard, that your brother was outside of the courtyard, on the other

17 side of that wall. And you've also told us that that wall was 2 metres

18 high. Can you now explain how you happened to -- saw your brother being

19 hit?

20 A. We were, both of us, on the same side of the wall, but he went out

21 to see the corner.

22 Q. I apologise. I really don't understand what you have just told

23 us.

24 A. I, too, am not understanding it. I didn't come here to tell lies.

25 You know that my brother was killed, and I think you are provoking me,

Page 4216

1 this side or that side, I am telling you.

2 Q. I'm not provoking you; I'm just looking for an explanation. Were

3 you on the same side of the wall together with your brother?

4 A. I told you, we were on the same side. I was there. He just got

5 up at the corner.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment, Mr. Lukic.

7 Mr. Salihi, it is clear to all of us that you're saying you were

8 very close to your brother at the time he was killed. The particular

9 point that Mr. Lukic is trying to be clear about is whether you could

10 actually see him at the very moment he was killed or whether the wall at

11 that point obstructed your view of your brother, albeit you knew that he

12 had been shot. Now, could you actually see him at the moment he was

13 killed?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw him when they killed him. I

15 was 1 metre away. I saw it very well. I saw him firing a burst of fire,

16 and he fell immediately down. I was at the corner of the wall, and then I

17 saw him falling down. And then I went -- withdrew a little bit.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Salihi.

19 Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. [Interpretation] It others who had joined you that morning, where

22 were they?

23 A. They know then we moved away because we -- the infantry troops

24 approached. So we fled wherever we could. We didn't know where we were

25 going. I personally went to the mountain.

Page 4217

1 Q. You say around 3.00 that afternoon, we saw a great number of Serb

2 policemen arriving and approaching my farm. We had been joined by Miftare

3 Zeqiri and 14 members of his family at our farm. You're talking about

4 your family farm. What about the other people who had joined you, where

5 were they? On which side of the wall were they?

6 A. The dead, the people who got killed? You mean the group of

7 Miftare Zeqiri, this is what you're asking me about?

8 Q. I'm asking about the moment when they joined you at your farm and

9 when your brother was killed.

10 A. We just wanted to leave from there. We didn't -- we didn't dare

11 stay at home because they set the houses on fire.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: This -- this question, Mr. Salihi, is to find out

13 where Faik and his family and the Zeqiri family were when a number were

14 killed. Were they inside in your compound when they were killed or were

15 they outside?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zeqir's family and the brother and

17 the children, they were outside, outside -- in the courtyard, excuse me.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

19 Q. Okay. If they were in the courtyard, were they outside of the

20 wall or within the wall? I'm not sure that we have received a good

21 interpretation.

22 A. I think the interpretation is good. I told you, they were outside

23 the wall.

24 Q. Okay. All of you were then sitting outside of the wall at the

25 moment when the Serb forces were approaching you. Would that be correct?

Page 4218

1 A. No. All of them were outside, but I was at the corner of the wall

2 with my brother, as I already told you.

3 Q. Very well. Thank you. I just don't see a possibility to clarify

4 this fully. I'll move on.

5 When you are talking about the men approaching you, you say that

6 they wore dark grey bandannas on their heads. How were these bandannas

7 tied? Could you please tell us?

8 A. I cannot tell you because I didn't go up to them to see how their

9 bandannas were tied, as you are asking me now.

10 Q. Is a bandanna tied around one's head a customary part of a police

11 uniform?

12 A. It's not customary, but this is what they did.

13 Q. Thank you. Is a normal police uniform usually black?

14 A. I told you, they had worn all sorts of colours, but we didn't dare

15 go close to them because they might have killed us, as they did kill many

16 others.

17 Q. Could we agree that black is not a customary police uniform

18 colour. Would that be correct?

19 A. I know it.

20 Q. Very well. Thank you.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that the witness said "they

22 know it," not "I know it."

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Salihi, before all of this happened, before the

24 24th of March when you say things were quiet, did you from time to time

25 see police officers or policemen?

Page 4219

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They came there, they went,

2 but we were not paying any attention to them. That didn't interest us.

3 We defended our own affairs.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you remember what colour the normal police

5 uniform in Celine was at the time before the war?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I tell you, sir, that before the war

7 they came very rarely, if to say not at all to Celine before the war.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before the war when you saw a policeman, can

9 you remember what colour of uniform he was wearing?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They had black uniforms.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

12 Mr. Lukic.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You're talking about the incident when Agim Ramadani was killed?

15 A. Yes, when they forced us to leave the mountain in the morning of

16 the 28th, they divided men from women. And at that moment, Agim

17 Ramadani --

18 Q. We can see all this in your statement. Let me ask you this: How

19 many people were there in the same place where you were?

20 A. I cannot tell you the exact number, but I do know that there were

21 a lot of people there.

22 Q. Where were you among all those people?

23 A. I was with them. We were all together when they divided us.

24 Q. Were you in the middle, at any of the ends?

25 A. In the middle.

Page 4220

1 Q. You say in one of your statements that there were around 10.000

2 people there?

3 A. In my statement I said 4 or 5.000, not 10.000, but you must

4 understand it that there were a lot of people. It might be true that they

5 were 10.000. Who counted them?

6 Q. Very well. And you are telling us that you saw this young man

7 being killed in a crowd of some 5.000 people?

8 A. They always asked the young men to come out of the group. They

9 maltreated them. They even maltreated me. They beat us.

10 Q. The next thing you say in the Albanian page 5, paragraph 2; the

11 English version, page 4, paragraph 3; and the B/C/S version, page 4,

12 paragraph 4, you are describing a group of policemen in blue camouflage

13 uniforms.

14 A. This is true, because there were many policemen. They changed

15 every 10, 20 metres, you know, there were so many policemen, but we didn't

16 dare look at them carefully.

17 Q. Would that colour be closer to the colour of uniforms that you had

18 seen before the war on police officers, or do you still claim that you saw

19 policemen wearing black uniforms before the war --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, one question at a time.

21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not a fair question to this witness.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

24 Q. I apologise, Mr. Salihi. I'll ask you one question at a time. On

25 that particular occasion you saw policemen in blue camouflage uniforms.

Page 4221

1 Could you please point to that colour, the blue colour, here in the

2 courtroom?

3 A. I told you once and I'm telling you now, they had different

4 colours. I can't remember now all these colours. I told you we didn't

5 raise our head and look at them.

6 Q. Thank you. This is your description, your statement, you said

7 that you had seen blue camouflage uniforms; that's why I'm asking you

8 whether you see the same blue colour here in the courtroom, colour blue.

9 You can, you may, raise your head and you can look around yourself.

10 A. Their clothes were black, but they had also what we call green

11 grass colour. It was mixed.

12 Q. In other words, this part of your statement where you say that

13 the policemen, the second group of policemen, wore blue camouflage

14 uniforms has not been recorded correctly. Is that what you're saying

15 today?

16 A. I told you that they had different colours, but I cannot explain

17 to you which group wore which colour because they kept changing, you

18 know.

19 Q. I've asked you and I've given you a possibility and I give you

20 another possibility to point something of blue colour here in the

21 courtroom.

22 A. Yes, there, the flag, that colour, and black.

23 MR. HANNIS: May the record indicate he's indicated the UN flag

24 behind Judge Chowhan.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: It will now, Mr. Hannis, but what's not clear to

Page 4222

1 me is what the reference to black was.

2 MR. HANNIS: I thought he said "with black." [Microphone not

3 activated].

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, thank you.

5 Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

7 Q. Did policemen before the war wear black camouflage uniforms?

8 MR. LUKIC: Not camouflage, black uniforms.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Only black uniforms, not camouflage.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the answer --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, they did.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

13 Q. Thank you. In the group wearing blue camouflage uniforms, you saw

14 men wearing red berets on their heads. The group with blue camouflage

15 uniforms also wore red berets - is that correct - were they also

16 policemen?

17 A. Yes, they were policemen.

18 Q. Thank you. You say that in the afternoon a number of trucks

19 arrived and that you were ordered to get on those trucks. Can you please

20 tell us how many trucks arrived.

21 A. I don't know how many. I did not count them. They were in line

22 in a convoy. We were told to board the trucks, and we didn't know where

23 they were sending us. But we learned that later that we were going

24 towards Zhur, towards Albania.

25 Q. Did you all manage to get on those trucks?

Page 4223

1 A. Everybody got on the trucks. The people who were there got on the

2 trucks.

3 Q. You're telling us that 10.000 people managed to get on those

4 trucks?

5 A. I didn't say "10.000." 4 or 5.000, because there were women as

6 well.

7 Q. Would it be fair to say that some 4 to 5.000 people got on those

8 trucks after all?

9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, it's been asked and answered. He's

10 already said everybody got on the trucks.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't understand your fixation with this detail,

12 Mr. Lukic. You know, you expect this man to be able to assess accurately

13 a large crowd. It's just unrealistic.

14 MR. LUKIC: Exactly, Your Honour, that's what we are trying to

15 prove, that he was not able and is not able --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, common sense tells you that. Whether there

17 was a large question is the real question, not whether there was 10.000 or

18 4 to 6.000.

19 MR. LUKIC: I'll move on. Thank you.

20 [Interpretation] Could we have Exhibit D -- 6D78 displayed on

21 e-court. This exhibit was downloaded from the EDS. We have a draft

22 translation of this document into English. Could we have the English

23 version displayed on the screen, the draft translation of the original

24 document?

25 Q. While this is being done, I'm going to ask you, Mr. Salihi --

Page 4224

1 MR. HANNIS: May I inquire of my colleague whether this is a full

2 translation or a partial translation? The English doesn't seem to be as

3 lengthy as the original.

4 MR. LUKIC: It is partial. We always do that when we use only

5 Serbian document that we do not have translated. So this is a draft and

6 unofficial translation.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there you have it.

8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Salihi, you told us that there was no KLA

10 presence in your village.

11 A. There wasn't.

12 Q. Thank you. We have a document here that we received from the

13 Prosecution. It's the minutes of Shehu Agram's [phoen] statement, who

14 otherwise was a KLA member. On page 1 we see the particulars.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see page 2 now, please.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, what's your question?

17 MR. LUKIC: My question is if he knows that there was KLA in his

18 village.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you know the answer to that, so it must be a

20 different question you want to put to him.

21 MR. LUKIC: Maybe he can reconcile his memory when he sees it or

22 maybe he knows this --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, he can't see it, for a start. And really, it

24 is very difficult to see how this is going to assist. If you have a

25 question, put the question. It doesn't depend on putting the detail of

Page 4225

1 this statement. You can take from this the question that you want to put.

2 This is a foundation for your question. But you're certainly going to

3 cause confusion here if you go into detail, unless this is a person he

4 particularly knows. If you want to establish he knows him, that might be

5 different, but if he's simply a third party as far as he's concerned, then

6 going into the detail of his statement takes us nowhere.

7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Salihi, you stated yourself that it was at a

9 long time that you had not seen a Serbian policeman or a Serbian soldier

10 before the 25th of March, 1999. Would you agree with me if I said that

11 the reason for this being that the area around your village and including

12 your village was under KLA control, at least a few months before the NATO

13 campaign began.

14 A. I don't agree. No, I don't agree because there was no KLA in

15 Celine.

16 Q. Was there a KLA presence in the forests and hills around Celine?

17 A. I didn't keep watch on them, where they stayed, what their bases

18 were, where their bases were, I didn't pay attention to that.

19 Q. Did you know that in Celine, close to the mosque, there was a KLA

20 position in the centre of village?

21 A. In Celine there wasn't any present -- presence. I was born there

22 and I grew up there and I don't understand what you're saying, the things

23 that you're saying.

24 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Agron Shehu [phoen]? Truth be

25 told me is from Mala Krusha?

Page 4226

1 A. No. No, I don't know him. I've given my statement about my own

2 village, Celine. I don't know about other villages. I've given my

3 statement about the massacre in Celine.

4 Q. Thank you. I accept your explanation concerning this Agron

5 person.

6 Is it correct that the KLA organised the civilian life as well, in

7 particular the 124th KLA Brigade organised civilian administration,

8 civilian authorities in the villages of Velika Krusa, Celine, Nogovac,

9 Mala Hoca, and Brestovac. Did you know that?

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

11 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: There is no foundation for that question --

13 MR. LUKIC: Well, when I put the document on the screen you tell

14 me don't put the document.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no --

16 MR. LUKIC: I have the document regarding this question as well,

17 it's 6D77.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: I have no doubt you do. But the point I'm making

19 to you is you have no foundation for thinking that this witness will have

20 this information.

21 MR. LUKIC: But just --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: He's made his position abundantly clear.

23 MR. LUKIC: He just told us: I lived there the whole life. He

24 must have known at that time that even the civilian life was --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, once you establish a basis for this

Page 4227

1 question, then we may permit it; and that will mean, first of all,

2 exploring his knowledge of the activity of the KLA in the area, which, as

3 I understand it, he said he paid absolutely no attention to. Now, whether

4 that's a realistic position for him to take is a matter on which you, no

5 doubt, will make submissions, but you've got the answer to the question, I

6 think, already. It's predictable what's coming. And there must -- you

7 will have to bear -- bring some sort of sense of proportion to the way in

8 which you're cross-examining about the KLA. You cannot, a la Milosevic,

9 constantly put propositions to witness about the KLA when you know that

10 they have very little or claim to have very little knowledge of these

11 activities. We haven't got endless time for this purpose. You will have

12 ample opportunity to present the case of your own. I know that in theory

13 you're entitled to cross-examine on all of these, but we have to bring a

14 sense of proportion to the whole proceedings. We're spending all this

15 time making no progress whatsoever when you've got loads of evidence

16 obviously tucked away there to use in due course. And if you use all your

17 time here in sort of cross-examination, it will be very difficult for the

18 Court to allow you an equivalent amount of time to lead the positive

19 evidence you claim to have.

20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour, this was my last question, so

21 I didn't intend to have too many questions like late Mr. Milosevic.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: I have an amazingly bad habit of intervening at the

23 wrong time.

24 MR. LUKIC: So taking in mind -- having in mind your guidances,

25 this was our last question, Your Honour.

Page 4228

1 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Salihi, I have no more questions

2 for you?

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

4 Mr. Hannis.

5 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:

7 Q. Mr. Salihi, I just want to go back and clear up something

8 regarding when your brother Bajram was killed, at page 18, line 12 of

9 today's transcript, and I need to ask you: Did Bajram have a weapon at

10 the time he was killed?

11 A. Never. Bajram never had a gun in his hand, and he was not a

12 soldier at the time. He never completed military service for that matter.

13 Q. Because the transcript was translated -- your answer was

14 translated as: I saw him when they killed him. I was 1 metre away. I

15 saw him firing a burst of fire and he fell immediately down. So I take it

16 from your answer that's not correct. He wasn't firing a weapon because he

17 didn't have one?

18 A. No. Bajram did not have a weapon. He was killed in front of me,

19 right before my eyes. They killed even little children, one-month-old

20 babies. So many people were killed.

21 Q. And if I understand your previous answers, was he looking around a

22 corner of the wall when he was shot?

23 A. Yes, that's correct. He went a little outside the wall at the

24 corner to be able to see what was going on. Because there were policemen

25 at another house. We didn't know where these policemen were, but they

Page 4229

1 shot at him.

2 Q. And whether you were inside the wall or outside the wall, was

3 there anything between you and him obstructing your view of him when he

4 got shot?

5 A. No. There was nothing between us.

6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours, I have no more questions.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Salihi, that completes your evidence. Thank

8 you for coming to the Tribunal again to give that evidence. You're now

9 free to leave.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much for

11 having me here.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, our next witness is Agim Jemini.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: The same area?

16 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. He is also from Celine village and

17 Orahovac municipality. His testimony relates to paragraphs 25 through 32,

18 72(a), 77(a) and (d). And he's a 92 bis (D) witness as well -- or 92 ter

19 I should say, Your Honour. It will take me a while to get used to the new

20 number. His transcript from his testimony of 7 June, 2002, it's our

21 Exhibit number 2353 and it incorporates his statement of 17 July 1999 and

22 a 3 June 2002 addendum, which in the Milosevic transcript were numbered

23 Exhibit 270 and it is our Exhibit Number 2338.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: There's -- there are photographs referred to in the

25 transcript of --

Page 4230

1 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: -- Milosevic. Are they to --

3 MR. HANNIS: Those two photographs were given one number, number

4 260 in Milosevic at page 6537 in the transcript. And those photos are our

5 Exhibit Numbers P2339 and 2340.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Jemini.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

10 tell the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed

11 before you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

15 Mr. Hannis.

16 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Examination by Mr. Hannis:

20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jemini. I want to establish a background for

21 some of your written evidence that we've proposed to submit to the Court.

22 You previously testified here at this Tribunal in the Slobodan Milosevic

23 case on the 7th of June, 2002. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And, sir, is the testimony you gave at that time true and accurate

Page 4231

1 to the best of your knowledge and belief?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And at that time a written statement of 17 July 1999 and a 3 June

4 2002 addendum that you had made to ICTY OTP investigators was incorporated

5 in your evidence. Did you have a chance to go over that statement and

6 that addendum prior to today?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And are you satisfied that they are accurate and correct and you

9 would confirm that to this Court at this time?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I said the transcript is Exhibit P2353.

12 The statement and the addendum are 2330 -- sorry, let me --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: 2338 I think.

14 MR. HANNIS: 2338, yes, thank you. And I would tender those at

15 this time.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


18 Q. Mr. Jemini, I understand you were born in 1960 in Celine, in

19 Rahovec municipality, in Kosovo. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You're married with four children?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And could you tell us when you did your mandatory military

24 service?

25 A. Yes. In 1988, 1988.

Page 4232

1 Q. And what was your job or specialty?

2 A. I was administrator to the battalion command in Skopje or it's

3 also called cata [phoen].

4 Q. Okay. And I understand from your written evidence that you were

5 the mayor for many years in Celine. Can you tell us how long you were

6 mayor?

7 A. From 1988 to today, so maybe it is 16 years.

8 Q. And in 1999 how big was Celine village, approximately how many

9 houses and how many people?

10 A. In 1999 there were approximately 2.000 inhabitants in Celine and

11 253 households.

12 Q. And what was the ethnicity of the people who lived in the village?

13 A. All of them Albanians.

14 Q. Now, in your evidence, in your written statement, and your

15 testimony you talked about an attack on your village that occurred on the

16 25th of March, 1999. Can you tell us, what were the forces that came to

17 Celine on that date?

18 A. Yes. On the 25th of March, 1999, at about 5.30 in the morning the

19 village was surrounded by APCs and tanks of the Serb military forces. And

20 from that moment they started shooting, shelling, burning, killing, and

21 all the other things that happened in Celine.

22 Q. You -- you've told us in some detail about that in your written

23 statement. But I have a question about the particular forces, can you

24 tell us whether they were military, police, or something else.

25 A. Military forces.

Page 4233

1 Q. Okay. What kind of uniforms were they wearing?

2 A. The uniform was blue camouflage with patterns, with different

3 colours.

4 Q. Did you see any insignia on their uniforms?

5 A. Yes. On their left upper arm was the eagle of the Serbian army,

6 the two-headed eagle, the normal eagle that the Serbian army held. And

7 they had various ribbons in various places.

8 Q. Now, you describe in your statement in --

9 MR. HANNIS: Well, I'm sorry, Your Honour, this might be a good

10 point to break. I won't be done in two minutes.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, I understand that. And certainly the -- so

12 far the answers are not consistent with the written statement, unless

13 there's a misunderstanding.

14 MR. HANNIS: I understand, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Jemini, we need to break now for half an

16 hour. So could you please leave the courtroom. You'll return at 11.00.

17 Meanwhile, you'll be shown where to wait.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 JUDGE BONOMY: And we will adjourn until 11.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

22 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jemini, your evidence will now continue.

25 Mr. Hannis will continue to examine you.

Page 4234

1 Mr. Hannis.

2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Q. Mr. Jemini, just before we broke I'd asked you about what kind of

4 uniforms these military forces were wearing when they came to your village

5 on the 25th. Your answer as translated was: "Blue camouflage with

6 patterns with different colours."

7 I note in your written statement from July of 1999, page 2,

8 paragraph 4 in all three versions, that you indicated they were all

9 wearing green/brown camouflage uniforms. Can you tell us which it was or

10 why there's a difference between what you said today and what you said in

11 your written statement.

12 A. I don't think there is any difference. Maybe it was

13 misinterpreted, but the uniforms they were wearing were brown-green, as I

14 have stated in my statements, camouflage.

15 Q. And you mentioned that they had with them vehicles, APCs and

16 tanks. Do you recall approximately how many tanks there were?

17 A. The village was surrounded on all sides by tanks and APCs, and I

18 would say that on every side there were at least two or three tanks. So a

19 total of 12 tanks altogether, including APCs, armoured cars.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you. In your statement, English page 2, paragraph 4;

21 page 2, paragraph 3 of the B/C/S; page 3, the last paragraph of the

22 Albanian, you describe where the men that you presumed were the commanders

23 of these forces, where they were during the day in a house next to where

24 you were hiding. I'd like to show you first of all a photograph that's

25 been marked as Exhibit P2339, which from your prior testimony we

Page 4235

1 understand is a picture from the place where you and your cousin were

2 hiding that day. It will come up on your screen in a moment, I hope.

3 MR. HANNIS: If we can rotate it 90 degrees to the left or 270 to

4 the right. Thank you.

5 Q. Do you recognise that photograph?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And from where was that taken?

8 A. It was taken from the place of the event.

9 MR. HANNIS: Can we enlarge that one step up? Thank you.

10 Q. Now, on that photograph can you see where you saw the men you

11 described as commanders, where they were located? And if the usher could

12 help you, we have a pen with which you could mark on the screen, and I'd

13 you actually to use that pen and mark with an X the location where you saw

14 the commanders.

15 A. The commanders were in the house opposite to where I was, about

16 10, 12 metres away, and it was in the balcony number 1 here.

17 Q. And on what floor of that building is that balcony located? Is

18 that the ground floor, the next floor up, the third floor?

19 A. On the ground floor.

20 Q. And approximately what was the distance from where they were

21 standing to where you were looking from?

22 A. In the picture, you can see it is very close, 10 to 12 metres away

23 I would say.

24 Q. Thank you?

25 MR. HANNIS: Could we take a screen shot of that and give it the

Page 4236

1 next IC number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC58, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


5 Q. And next I'd like to show you Exhibit 2340, and I'll have you make

6 a mark on this one as well. And I understand from your evidence before

7 that you were on the top floor of the building where you and your cousin

8 were hiding. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, do you see another photograph on your screen at the moment?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you were -- you and your

13 cousin were hiding.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you use that pen again and mark on there where you and he

16 were?

17 A. This is the place we were hiding.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. HANNIS: Could we take a screen shot of that one and give it

20 the next IC number.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before doing that, does that photograph help

22 us at all, does it show where the commanders were -- of the building in

23 which the commanders were.

24 MR. HANNIS: I'll let the witness answer that, Your Honour.

25 Q. If you understand the question. In this photograph can you see

Page 4237

1 the building with the balcony where the commanders were standing?

2 A. For the moment I cannot see -- in this picture, I cannot see it.

3 We need another picture for that.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC59, Your Honours.

6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 MR. HANNIS: And if we could show Exhibit P2356 to the witness at

9 this time.

10 Q. I want to show you one more photo, Mr. Jemini. You describe in

11 your statement how well you were hiding. You saw your parents and other

12 relatives taken to a spot and shot. Can you tell us what this is a

13 photograph of now?

14 A. This is a photograph of the house we lived in and where I was

15 hiding, and there was a distance of 80 metres between the two houses. In

16 the house across where I was, the family members were brought out of the

17 basement, my mother, father, my uncle, his wife, and his son, and they

18 were forced to leave the basement and were placed in front of this house,

19 here in this place. And they asked them --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: We do have that information, Mr. Jemini. We're

21 just trying to identify the places. Now, Mr. Hannis is going to ask you

22 to mark certain things on this paragraph.

23 MR. HANNIS: Yes, thank you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.


Page 4238

1 Q. We do have your evidence from your prior testimony and your

2 written statement. So could you mark on this photograph if it shows the

3 spot where your relatives were shot.

4 A. Here, in this place, where they were shot, whereas these other

5 sides, these two X's, indicate where they were asked to give money.

6 Q. Okay. I understand the two X's on the left side of the screen is

7 where they were first asked for money and now --

8 A. When they had that conversation and when they were maltreated, one

9 X shows the spot where they were shot.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. HANNIS: Could we give that --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before you do, it would help me, Mr. Hannis,

13 if we could also mark the building that has the basement and the building

14 where the witness was.

15 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'll ask a question about that.

16 Q. From where was this photograph taken, from which spot?

17 A. It was taken from the place I was hiding, across on the top floor.

18 Q. So the house that you were hiding in does not appear in this

19 photograph; correct?

20 A. No, it does not appear because I took the photograph from the

21 window of the place I was hiding in.

22 Q. And --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, I understand now entirely, Mr. Hannis, and it

24 follows that the building --

25 MR. HANNIS: Where the --

Page 4239

1 JUDGE BONOMY: -- at the X is the building where the basement is, I

2 take it?

3 MR. HANNIS: I'm not sure what the reference to the basement is,

4 Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's where the family were hiding before

6 they were shot.

7 MR. HANNIS: Oh, okay. Yes, I'm sorry, I'm getting basement and

8 attic confused, Your Honour. Okay.

9 Q. And the building where the commanders were talking on the radio

10 does not appear in this photograph either, does it?

11 A. Not here, but you could see it in the other photo where the

12 balcony was.

13 Q. Yes, thank you?

14 MR. HANNIS: Could we give this the next IC number, please.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC60, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Jemini, I want to go to page 5, paragraph 3 of the

19 English; page 5, paragraph 1 of the B/C/S; and it is page 6, paragraph 4

20 of the Albanian. You describe how you and your cousin fled that house

21 where you had been hiding and went to Zrze. And on the way you passed

22 a "murder scene near Bellacerka, a river bed near the railway line." Can

23 you tell us approximately how many bodies you saw at that murder scene?

24 A. It was 3.30 in the morning when we passed by the murder scene.

25 The number was around 40. I am not precise. That is the -- roughly the

Page 4240

1 number of the massacred people from Bellacerka.

2 Q. And anything you can tell us about the clothing they were wearing

3 and whether or not they had any visible injuries or wounds?

4 A. Can you repeat the question, please?

5 Q. Yes. The bodies you saw there, can you tell us how they were

6 dressed and whether or not they had any visible wounds?

7 A. Yes. They were all killed. They were in civilian clothes, and

8 they were people from Bellacerka.

9 Q. Could you see any injuries on their bodies?

10 A. At that moment we were so upset and shocked at what we saw, so the

11 only thing we saw was they were dead, full of injuries, but we didn't look

12 further than that.

13 Q. I understand. Thank you.

14 MR. HANNIS: Could we next show the witness a page from the Kosovo

15 atlas, Exhibit P615, at page 22.

16 Q. Witness, we'll put a map up on your screen, and when it's there I

17 would like you to use the pen again and mark on it for us three different

18 locations.

19 MR. HANNIS: And could we -- near the centre of the map, could we

20 blow it up a couple of notches? Maybe one more.

21 Q. Are you able to see your village on this map?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you draw a circle around Celine and put a -- put the number

24 1 in the circle?

25 A. Yes, I can.

Page 4241

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. That's fine. And then can you show us the approximate location of

4 where you saw the bodies in the river bed and put the number two in a

5 circle at that location.

6 A. Yes. Here, it's here. That's the point where the railway and the

7 river cross. It's a bridge or there is also irrigation canal.

8 Q. Thank you. And then I see on the map Zrze is the village where

9 you and your cousin went; correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. HANNIS: Could we take a screen shot and give that the next IC

13 number?

14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC61, Your Honours.


16 Q. Mr. Jemini, I'm sorry to rush through this but we have limited

17 time. I want to ask you about whether there was a mosque in Celine in

18 1999?

19 A. Yes, there was.

20 Q. Was it damaged during March of 1999 when the offensive against

21 your village took place?

22 A. It was.

23 Q. How do you know that?

24 A. Because we were hiding during the day in the periphery of the

25 village, and we could hear the explosion that destroyed the mosque

Page 4242

1 totally. And when we went there in the evening, we could see that it was

2 totally destroyed. We could hear where we were in the outskirts, about 1

3 kilometre from it, the sound of the explosion.

4 MR. HANNIS: Could we show Exhibit P1800 to the witness now.

5 Q. I have one last photograph I'd like you to take a look at, sir,

6 and tell us if you can recognise what is depicted there. Can you tell the

7 Judges what that is?

8 A. Yes. This is a photo of the totally destroyed mosque. This is

9 rubble from the mosque. This is part of the minaret where the round is

10 here. As you can see it the minaret is almost totally destroyed and there

11 is a part that is still intact here.

12 Q. And is that how it looked for the first time after you heard that

13 loud explosion?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jemini. I have no more questions for you at this

16 time.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

18 Mr. O'Sullivan.

19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, the order is: General Pavkovic,

20 Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Milutinovic, General Ojdanic, General Lukic, and General

21 Lazarevic.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 Mr. Ackerman.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jemini. I have several questions for you, and

Page 4243

1 if you'll listen very carefully to my questions and try to answer them as

2 briefly as possible we can get through this much more quickly.

3 I want to begin by referring to your statement, paragraph 2, you

4 talk about the offensive that began on the 25th of March and you said

5 this: "The whole population of the village was still present because we

6 had no KLA presence and there was no reason for anyone to leave."

7 Do you recall saying that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, if there had been a KLA presence there, then I presume the

10 converse of what you said would be that there would have been a reason for

11 people to leave because of the KLA presence; correct?

12 A. Can you please repeat the question.

13 Q. Yes. Your statement was that: "We had no KLA presence, so there

14 was no reason to leave." If there had been a KLA presence, then I take it

15 there would have been a reason to leave?

16 A. No. If we had a KLA presence, we would have a reason to defend

17 ourselves. But without its presence there, there was no reason for the

18 entry of the military forces there.

19 Q. Well, if you -- if you tell us that there was no reason for anyone

20 to leave your village because there was no KLA, then if there had been KLA

21 wouldn't that have been a reason for you to leave the village? Isn't that

22 the logical conclusion to draw from your statement?

23 A. It would be a logical conclusion if there was KLA presence because

24 the Serbian forces wanted to drive the KLA out of its positions. And in

25 those cases, the population had to leave because of the offensives.

Page 4244

1 Q. Yes, yes, exactly. And that's -- that's why you felt safe. If

2 the KLA had been there, you knew that your village then would have drawn

3 the attention of the Serb forces, didn't you?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Yeah, you pretty much said that in Milosevic trial at page 6549

6 when you said: "Everywhere the Serbian army and police entered into areas

7 where there was KLA."

8 Do you recall saying that?

9 A. But in our case, that was not so because they entered a village

10 where there was no presence of the KLA.

11 Q. Well -- and of course you don't know whether they believed KLA was

12 there or not, do you?

13 A. I knew what was going on in the village because I was the mayor

14 and I was living there. That is why I am saying I was sure that there was

15 no KLA presence and we didn't expect the Serbian forces to enter the

16 village.

17 Q. I know, but I think you misunderstood my question. My question

18 was: You don't have any way of knowing if the Serbian forces believed

19 that KLA was in your village, do you?

20 A. There was no way how we could know what they thought.

21 Q. Before the 25th of March, everything was peaceful in your village,

22 wasn't it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And it was only after NATO began its attacks that the war came to

25 your village; true?

Page 4245

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you talk about the forces that were surrounding your village

3 and shelling it, and what you say in your statement at paragraph 3 is

4 that: "It did not appear that they were aiming at the people. It seemed

5 they were trying to scare everyone in the village."

6 That's true, too?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And if the forces believed that the KLA was hiding in your

9 village, that might be a way to get the KLA to expose themselves, to flee

10 the village, or to clear the village of civilians so they could attack the

11 KLA. That also makes sense, doesn't it?

12 A. Yes, it does.

13 Q. Now, you talked to us about these commanders who you -- whose

14 radio transmission you claim to have heard. You said they had hand-held

15 radios?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you say that you not only could hear what they were saying,

18 but you could hear what was coming to them through these radios. Is that

19 true?

20 A. That is true.

21 Q. I'd like you to look, please, at -- at IC58.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: If we could have that put up on the screen.

23 Q. Now, just so that -- just so that we're all clear, this is taken

24 from that window that you claim to have been observing things from, and

25 where you've marked that little red X, that is the place where you say

Page 4246

1 these commanders were standing. That's true, isn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So that's a place that you say was 10 or 12 metres away from where

4 you were; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So now I'd like you to now look at IC59, please. And that picture

7 shows with a red X the spot where you were observing these events and from

8 where you claim to have seen and heard these commanders, doesn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that building which was directly out in front of your window

11 where you were looking out, according to the last picture, is not visible

12 in this picture, is it?

13 A. No, it isn't.

14 Q. And we can see a great deal more than 10 or 12 metres out in front

15 of that building where you claim to have been watching, can't we?

16 A. This is the house from where my parents were taken, and it's about

17 80 to 100 metres away from where I was staying. It was the place where my

18 family was living, while the house that I described that is 10 to 12

19 metres away is behind this tree here and you cannot see it, unfortunately.

20 So that's the fifth house in the row.

21 Q. Well, let's blow the picture up at that spot where that tree is.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Can we do that? Can we zoom in on it there?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


25 Q. We're going to try to do that. Not that tree. Not that tree.

Page 4247

1 The tree in -- the tree to the right of the white structure, right there.

2 Blow it up some more, and some more, and some more.

3 Now, you claim that the house is behind that tree?

4 A. It's -- yeah, it's right here, 12 metres -- it was the other

5 photograph that was clearer that you can see that distance, 10 to 12

6 metres.

7 Q. Well, are you saying that house is to the left of that little tree

8 there that we see in the middle?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Well, that's a great deal more than 10 or 12 metres from where you

11 were, isn't it?

12 A. I don't think it's more than 12 metres. I can't tell you exactly

13 the distance, but not more than that.

14 Q. All right. Now, when you heard these commanders -- I want to go

15 back now to IC59.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: That is IC59.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: It is. IC --


19 MR. ACKERMAN: I want to go to IC58.



22 Q. Now, the place where you've marked the X, they were actually

23 standing out on that balcony or were they inside the house where the

24 balcony is?

25 A. On the balcony.

Page 4248

1 Q. So they were standing right there on that unfinished balcony; is

2 that your testimony?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, the -- this place you were observing from is this window this

5 picture is taken from. With them standing out there on that balcony, you

6 certainly couldn't just stand up in that window and look around, could

7 you, because they'd have seen you?

8 A. Yes, of course.

9 Q. And you claim that these commanders that were standing there on

10 that ground floor balcony with their radios were supervising what was

11 going on in the village. That's also your position, isn't it?

12 A. Yes. From what I heard during that day, the radio contacts they

13 had with their leaders, that told me that from that point they held

14 everything under control. What was happening in Celina Krusha, and other

15 villages. And they gave orders for nobody to go on that road,

16 Celina-Prizren.

17 Q. That is all in your statement, and we have that -- that wasn't a

18 very good place to view the village from, was it? Couldn't see much of

19 the village from there, could you?

20 A. It was a very appropriate position, but of course it was

21 impossible for us to see everything. But because we were there, there

22 were moments when we could go close to the window and see what was going

23 on in the courtyard.

24 Q. I'm not talking about what you could see; I'm talking about those

25 commanders. If they were directing what was going on in the village, that

Page 4249

1 balcony that they were standing on was not a very good point to observe

2 things from, was it? Ground floor balcony?

3 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think that misstates his testimony. I

4 don't think he said "ground floor."

5 JUDGE BONOMY: He did actually say "ground floor," Mr. Hannis --

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah, he did.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: -- in your examination.

8 MR. HANNIS: I misheard, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Whether that's wrong, you'll need to take up in

10 re-examination, but he did say it.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The balcony is about 3 metres from

12 the ground level, so it was the first floor. You can see from the

13 photograph that it's not on the ground level.


15 Q. Well, even with that, it's not a good place to observe what was

16 going on in the village, is it? You can't see the whole village from

17 there, can you?

18 A. I don't think that the commanders needed to see everything in the

19 village.

20 Q. That wasn't the question. My question is: You can't see the

21 whole village from there, can you?

22 A. You can see most of it, 70 per cent of the village.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, page 37, line 14.

24 MR. HANNIS: My case manager pointed it out to me. I stand

25 corrected, Your Honour.

Page 4250

1 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.


3 Q. Now, you and your cousin went into this attic, basically to hide,

4 and you -- you already told me that it would have been very difficult for

5 you to -- or impossible for you to stand up in that window and look out.

6 So what did you do, did you kind of lie in front of the window and peer

7 over it occasionally? Is that how you were able to see out of it?

8 A. Yes. Sometimes we were lying down, and sometimes -- because we

9 were stressed and because of what was going on, we went closer to the

10 window. But we kept a distance from it, a safe distance, so that they

11 could not see us.

12 Q. Yes. In fact, there were some soldiers who you say entered the

13 house and came up to the floor immediately below you and to get a better

14 perspective on that we should now look again at IC58 I think.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: That is IC58.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Oh, I keep getting them wrong, Judge. IC59.

17 Q. So we can see the window where you were, and you say that just

18 underneath that some soldiers came up there. And what you said about them

19 was that: "They were stationed at the windows and appeared to be standing

20 guard for the rest."

21 Correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And they were immediately below you, on the floor immediately

24 below you, weren't they?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4251

1 Q. And how on earth could you see that they were stationed at the

2 windows from up where you were?

3 A. But there was this hole from which we could see them, and we could

4 hear them talk, the observations they made. We could hear them. It was

5 just below us. It's just 3 metres below us, and I can tell you -- I can

6 mark here where they were. And they were there, to keep guard on the

7 leaders that were in the other house, thinking that there was nobody in

8 that house.

9 Q. Okay. So what -- what is this hole you were talking about through

10 which you could see them? I think you just made a blue mark next to some

11 windows there. That would be where you claim the soldiers were looking

12 out the windows I guess; is that true?

13 A. The whole area of that floor, they would move around there, and

14 they stayed there all the time that the commanders were staying where they

15 were at the balcony.

16 Q. Well, where is this hole through which you claim to have been able

17 to observe them? So was there a hole in the floor?

18 A. Yes, in the middle where we were.

19 Q. And you could hear them very clearly I guess?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Because the sound was travelling between the two floors very

22 easily, wasn't it?

23 A. Yes, yes. We could hear them very clearly.

24 Q. In fact, what you said about that I think in paragraph 7 of your

25 statement: "We could not make a noise while they were there, otherwise

Page 4252

1 they would discover us." True?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So pretty difficult for you to even move around, wasn't it?

4 A. Of course, yes.

5 Q. Now --

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I guess we better have that captured and made an

7 exhibit, Your Honour, so I -- because he put the little blue X there.

8 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC62, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

11 Q. Now, I'm going to go back again to the other one, which is either

12 IC58 or IC59.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Make your mind up, John.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: It must be IC58, Your Honour.

15 Q. Now, can you show us where the school is?

16 A. Could you repeat that?

17 Q. Can you show us where the school is? Where is the school in this

18 photograph?

19 A. It cannot be seen here. It's behind this house on the hill.

20 Q. When you say "this house," do you mean the white house?

21 A. No. That was the house where we used to live, where we were

22 living. The school is at a distance from these houses into the centre of

23 the village.

24 Q. So you can't see it from this spot?

25 A. From this window where we were, from there you could see the

Page 4253

1 school, but not in this photograph.

2 Q. Well, this photograph is taken from the window where you were;

3 that's what you told us.

4 A. Yes, but this is not a photograph of the school.

5 Q. And you couldn't see it from that window, could you, because it's

6 behind that house there on the right that you say the commanders were

7 standing on. So you couldn't see it, could you?

8 A. Not from this window, but from various positions where we went, we

9 could see the school when it was set on fire.

10 Q. What do you mean from various positions where you went. You just

11 told me you couldn't move without being discovered. You couldn't make any

12 noise because they'd discover you.

13 A. That was something we did -- we were able to move a little bit on

14 tip toe in order to be able to see what was going on.

15 Q. So you could hear everything they were doing, you could hear them

16 moving about, you could hear them talking, but you claim they couldn't

17 hear you moving about in the attic up above them where there was a hole

18 going through the floor?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. So when you moved about, did you -- you must have gone completely

21 to the other side of the house and looked out other windows. Is that

22 true?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. There's only one window, of course, on that side of the house on

25 that floor, isn't there?

Page 4254

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is there a window on the other end of that attic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you go down to that end of the attic? Did you walk down there

5 with these soldiers that could have heard you?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Now, you couldn't see the school out the window on the other end

8 of that attic either, could you?

9 A. We saw the school from this window where we were. You could --

10 can see the school from here, but this photograph here, it's not very

11 clear. We don't have a clear picture of the school. We were at this

12 window, and we were following how the school was set alight.

13 Q. Well, you told me a minute ago you couldn't see the school from

14 this window; now you can?

15 JUDGE BONOMY: That doesn't accurately describe his evidence. His

16 evidence is it's not in the photograph, but it's also to the effect that

17 by moving into an appropriate position you can see the school.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that's not what he said, Your Honour. At 55,

19 line 5, he said, about the school: "Not from this window, but from

20 various positions where we went we could see the school." So that is what

21 he said.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: You're quite right. All right.


24 Q. Could you tell us where it was --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: If you go back to 52, 22 you'll see: "From this

Page 4255

1 window where we were, from there you could see the school, but not in this

2 photograph."

3 MR. ACKERMAN: But he later agreed he couldn't see it from that

4 window, but he could see it from a different position.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I accept that, but there are different

6 versions.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'll agree that we're both right,

8 Your Honour.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can clarify again. From the

10 position of this window, you could see in the distance the school when it

11 was set alight, but in this photograph here you cannot see it.


13 Q. I hunch what you're saying is that when the school started burning

14 you could see the smoke coming up from the school and you knew that smoke

15 was coming from where the school was. That's probably a fair statement,

16 isn't it?

17 A. No. We saw the school and the smoke, and we saw the army that was

18 there.

19 Q. All right. From -- from this vantage point that you had in this

20 house, here's what you say in paragraph 8 of your statement: "Throughout

21 the day, I saw soldiers entering and looting all the houses throughout the

22 village. They would also remove the main part of the satellite dishes of

23 all the houses. During the day 12 houses were burnt and then I remember

24 that they burnt the school about 10.00 a.m. In the morning."

25 Now, you couldn't see all the houses from there, could you?

Page 4256

1 That's an exaggeration, that statement, isn't it?

2 A. Maybe it's from the notes that were different, but the looting and

3 the robbing happened. Maybe not all the houses were seen, but most of the

4 houses -- many houses I would say, and many houses were looted. But at

5 that time I saw personally the school, how it was set alight, and the

6 smoke came out. And there were other -- about 10, 12 houses that were

7 also burned at that time.

8 Q. Well, when you were challenged about this in Milosevic by

9 Judge Kwon - and I think this is at 6562 of the Milosevic transcript -

10 explaining to Judge Kwon how it was possible for you to claim to have seen

11 everything from this vantage point you said that while you were up there

12 with those soldiers below you with a hole in the floor, that you could

13 hear all the sound very clearly. What you told Judge Kwon was: "We could

14 take away the tiles from the roof and be able to see what was happening

15 around the village."

16 Now, that can't possibly be true, can it?

17 A. That was true because where we were, on that floor, we were trying

18 to create some space to see from those openings into the village.

19 Q. So there are these armed soldiers right below you that you're

20 afraid of, and now you're moving all over that attic and raising roof

21 tiles to look out. Is that your position?

22 A. Yes, but of course we were very careful, and that was our ability.

23 They did not dictate [as interpreted] we were there, they could not hear

24 us.

25 Q. So your statement in paragraph 7 of your statement that: "We

Page 4257

1 could not make a noise while they were there, otherwise they would

2 discover us," simply isn't true. You could make a lot of noise; right?

3 MR. HANNIS: Well, he didn't say he was making a lot of noise

4 while he was doing that, Your Honour. It mischaracterises his testimony.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: I wonder if it's not a reasonable inference,

6 Mr. Hannis, from the evidence that there must be some noise. I think the

7 criticism, Mr. Ackerman, is the use "a lot of noise" -- the expression "a

8 lot of noise."

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me just a moment, Your Honour, my computer

10 has stopped working.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jemini, can I ask you meanwhile how you reached

12 the roof tiles.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was minimal height -- so

14 that the soldiers would not hear us, the soldiers that were keeping guard

15 downstairs, so we very carefully removed the tiles, 5 to 10 centimetres

16 only, we moved them a little bit. So the noise was very slight, so the

17 soldiers could not hear what was going on upstairs. We were very careful,

18 extremely careful, because we knew that if they heard us it would mean

19 death for us.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Could we see IC59 again, please.

21 Can you show us where the roof tiles are that you moved?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The parallel side, on the

23 opposite side, we lifted the tile a little bit and we could see the whole

24 village. And you can see the road from Celina, Bellacerka, Krusha e

25 Madhe, and from there we could observe everything that was going on in

Page 4258

1 Celina. So we had to stand up, move the tile a little bit, and observe

2 everything that was going on, the movements, the burning. From the X

3 here, the window, you can see the school in the middle of the village

4 because it's high up, so you can see the school from there.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Listen again, could you mark with the blue pen

6 there the part of the roof where you moved the tiles.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From this distance to the -- from

8 here, it's 4 or 5 minutes --


10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 4 or 5 metres from here. That's

11 where we removed the tile.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 Mr. Ackerman.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we take a snap-shot of that, please.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC63, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 Now, do you want to go back to your exhibit, Mr. Ackerman?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: No, I'm happy where we are, Judge.

19 Q. Now, that window that has the red X on it we can see, that's the

20 window from which the other photograph we've been looking at was taken,

21 isn't it? I'm sorry, did you not hear me?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where the red X is in this photograph, that's the window from

24 which the other photograph we've been looking at was taken?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4259

1 Q. IC58, and you took that picture, didn't you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I'm wondering if you were up there taking pictures so we would

4 understand what you could see, why you didn't raise up a roof tile and

5 take a picture out through one of the roof tiles to show us what you could

6 see in that direction.

7 A. Time was such that the security situation was very difficult, so

8 it was not possible at that moment.

9 Q. So you were up in the attic with your camera, you took one

10 picture, but the security situation was so difficult you couldn't take

11 two; is that what you want us to understand?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Well, let me suggest to you something more logical. It wasn't

14 until you were challenged about your ability to see the rest of the

15 village that you made up this statement about roof tiles, and that's why

16 you didn't take a picture out of there that day, isn't it, because it

17 didn't happen. Isn't that true?

18 A. No, and I stated the same thing in the statement in the Milosevic

19 trial.

20 Q. I want to go to --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before you do --

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: -- Mr. Jemini, can you tell us when you took the

24 photographs?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the photographs of the

Page 4260

1 roofs, of the houses?

2 JUDGE BONOMY: No, the two photographs that we've been looking at,

3 this one and the one taken from that window.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I took it after we

5 returned to the village, during [as interpreted] the time that the Serb

6 forces were there.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


9 Q. I want to move now to the next day, the 26th of March. We're at

10 page 4 --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that there is a not missing

12 on line 62, "not during the time," he said, the witness.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: That puts a completely different --

14 MR. ACKERMAN: It does.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: -- complexion on the answer.

16 You said that you didn't take photographs from the -- from a gap

17 in the roof because of the security situation. What was the difficulty at

18 the time you took the photographs?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were very much afraid we might be

20 detected by the forces that were under us. We didn't want to make too

21 much of a noise --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: You're misunderstood my question. You took the

23 photographs when you returned after the Serb forces had left, once you

24 came back to your own home. And you suggested that --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 4261

1 JUDGE BONOMY: You also suggested that you limited the photograph

2 taken to one from the window because there were security difficulties.

3 Now, what were the security difficulties after you had returned home?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't think it was appropriate

5 to take other photos because we might have taken others as well.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.


8 Q. So it had nothing to do with security, did it?

9 A. Failing to take more photos from the window after we returned had

10 nothing to do with the security situation.

11 Q. So I'm back to the prior question. You didn't do it because the

12 story about roof tiles you made up after the fact, didn't you? That never

13 happened, did it?

14 A. Yes -- no. This happened during the time we were there hiding.

15 Q. I want to go to the 26th of March, paragraph 16 of your

16 statement -- it's actually the first full paragraph on page 4. You're

17 talking about seeing a force approaching the village from the main road,

18 and you noticed a troop carrier with 12 special forces police. You

19 thought they were Arkan's men. You say they had long beards and shaved

20 heads with no hats, similar uniforms and insignias as the soldiers from

21 the day before, with red ribbons hanging from their left shoulders,

22 similarly armed, but with large knives that were at least a half metre

23 long.

24 That's what you saw?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4262

1 Q. Now, the person that you were hiding in the attic with on the 25th

2 of March was your cousin Isuf Jemini; correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. And in your testimony in Milosevic you were asked if he also gave

5 a statement to the Tribunal. Do you remember being asked that, at page

6 6559?

7 A. Can you please repeat the question once --

8 Q. You were asked if he also gave a statement to the OTP, to this

9 Tribunal. Do you remember being asked that question?

10 A. I have no information about that.

11 Q. Well, at page 6559 of the Milosevic transcript starting at line 6,

12 Mr. Milosevic asked this question: "You say that you were hiding for 48

13 hours in the attic with your cousin Isuf Jemini. Did Isuf give a

14 statement to the investigators of the Tribunal as well?"

15 Your answer was: "Yes, but given that the statement was fairly

16 similar, given we were together all the time, it appeared sufficient to

17 have only one statement of that kind submitted before this Tribunal."

18 Now, that's what you said in Milosevic; was that true?

19 A. Yes. But then he was invited to come and testify.

20 Q. I understand that, but when you say: "It appeared sufficient to

21 have only one statement of that kind submitted before this Tribunal," to

22 whom did it appear sufficient? Who made that decision?

23 A. I was not told whether it was sufficient or not. We just gave the

24 statements as we were asked to.

25 Q. Well, why did you say: "It appeared sufficient to have only one

Page 4263

1 statement of that kind submitted before this Tribunal"? Why did you say

2 that?

3 A. Because we thought it was sufficient since we were together. It

4 was our own personal view.

5 Q. Well, is it your position that you gave your statements on the

6 same day?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Would it surprise you to learn that Isuf Jemini's statement was

9 given on the 11th of June, 2002 - four days after you testified in

10 Milosevic - that he had given statement? Would that surprise you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. That wouldn't surprise you because when you said that in

13 Milosevic, it wasn't true?

14 A. I think that whatever I said, it was true.

15 Q. So when you said yes, that he'd given a statement to the Tribunal,

16 that was true, even though I tell you now it was not given until four days

17 later. Correct? For the Prosecutor it's K0227353?

18 A. It is possible as what you are putting it to me, but I wasn't

19 interested to know when he would give his statements prior to or after me.

20 Q. Well, weren't you interested in telling the truth when you were

21 asked questions in Milosevic?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: That's questions don't assist this process.

24 Mr. Jemini, in Milosevic you gave us -- you said clearly that Isuf

25 Jemini had given a statement to investigators of the Tribunal. It's now

Page 4264

1 being suggested that that was not correct. Now, why did you say in the

2 trial of Milosevic that Isuf Jemini had given a statement to the

3 Prosecution.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time I had knew he had given

5 a statement, but I had no knowledge as to when he gave the statement and

6 when he acknowledged it.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: How did you come to learn that he had given a

8 statement?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because when we gave statements in

10 the village, he was there, too, often. But whether his actual statement

11 was taken by the Tribunal or not, this I didn't know.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

13 Mr. Ackerman.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, if there is a statement

15 preceding 11 June 2002 by Isuf Jemini, I would ask the Prosecution to

16 produce a copy of it for me. But what has been produced so far does not

17 include any statement earlier than 11 June 2002. So if there is such a

18 statement, I would like to have it and I would end my cross-examination

19 now with the right to resume it should I get that statement delivered to

20 me at a later time.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

22 Mr. Fila.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.

Page 4265

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk -- oh, Mr. Visnjic, sorry.

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 Mr. Ivetic.

5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I do have some questions for

6 this witness.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

8 Q. Good day, sir, my name is Dan Ivetic, and I represent Mr. Sreten

9 Lukic relative to these trial proceedings, along with my colleagues Branko

10 Lukic and Mr. Ogrizovic. Now, I need to ask you a few questions today and

11 I'd like to clarify some points made in your testimony and in your

12 statements. Now, first of all today you clarified that the uniformed

13 individuals that came into your village at 9.30 a.m. on the 25th of March

14 were wearing green and brown uniforms. Can I take from that that it is

15 your testimony that there were not any persons there at that time wearing

16 blue camouflage uniforms?

17 A. I think we -- I explained it, that they had green camouflage

18 uniforms. So the usual Serbian army uniform.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Ivetic, there is a supplement or an

20 addendum to the statement, which I take it you've seen which is referring

21 to that time.

22 MR. IVETIC: That's why I asked the question I asked,

23 Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

25 MR. IVETIC: And --

Page 4266

1 Q. And now if we can talk a little bit about another part of your

2 statement, you describe towards the end of your statement, the last page

3 as a matter of fact, at least in the English - I presume it's the last

4 page in the witness acknowledgement in the Albanian as well - that bodies

5 that had been along the roadway were collected and they were collected by

6 persons you described as policemen with gypsies during the day. And I

7 would like to ask you: Did both the men you describe as policemen and the

8 men that you describe as gypsies wear uniforms?

9 A. The policemen, yes; the gypsies, no.

10 Q. And is it correct that the uniforms worn by these men was solid

11 blue in colour?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Now, you also described earlier in your statement - and I'm

14 not sure whether it relates to your village or to one of the surrounding

15 villages - but when you had left your position from the attic, you

16 describe that you saw policemen with gypsies entering the village and

17 stealing items from the village. Now, first of all, which village were

18 you talking about at that point in time?

19 A. Celina because we staid later for two months in Celina after the

20 villagers had left it. During that period, every day they entered the

21 village, looted it, and took away whatever they wanted.

22 Q. Okay. And if I can ask you, these persons that were with the

23 gypsies, did they have the same uniforms as the individuals who were

24 collecting the bodies that we have just talked about?

25 A. No.

Page 4267

1 Q. Okay. Now let's go back for a moment to the persons that were

2 collect the bodies. Is it accurate that these persons travelled in trucks

3 together with the individuals you describe as gypsies?

4 A. Can you repeat the question, please?

5 Q. Sure. If we can go back for a moment to the persons in the solid

6 blue uniforms that were collecting the bodies, is it accurate to state

7 that these persons travelled in trucks together with the individuals you

8 described as gypsies?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. As the mayor or president of your local community, as I

11 think the official title is of your position, do you know about the

12 existence of a municipal organ called the civil protection services?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. And a few questions relating to -- a few

15 questions relating to the individuals that passed by in the troop carrier

16 that you referred to as the special forces police, the ones that you

17 thought were Arkan's men. Now, when you say "special forces police,"

18 you're not talking about anyone who would be a member of the MUP of the

19 Republic of Serbia, are you?

20 A. They belonged to MUP, too. They were part of Serbian forces

21 involved in the massacre.

22 Q. Now, sir, that's not what you say in your statement, is it?

23 A. Which one are you saying?

24 Q. I'm talking about the troop carrier of 12 special forces police

25 that you said you thought were Arkan's men that had the long beards and

Page 4268

1 the shaved heads with no hats, that came to your village, insulted your

2 mother, and then continued onward toward Krusha e Madhe. Those people did

3 not stay in your village. Isn't that correct?

4 A. They went on. At that moment they didn't stop at our house; they

5 just cursed my mother and went on their way.

6 Q. And so these persons that we are talking about were not present

7 for the other events that you have testified about here today. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. On the previous day, no. One day earlier, no.

10 Q. Okay. And so I'm -- my questions right now are focussed about

11 these 12 individuals, because I'd like to get some clarification from you

12 regarding about what you have said in your statement. Is that fair?

13 A. Yes, yes. Those 12 policemen were not the same as the ones that I

14 saw on the 25th in the village. They belonged to another unit.

15 Q. Okay. And the question I have for you is with respect to these

16 individuals, they were not wearing the same uniforms as the persons you

17 saw the prior day. Is that correct?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Okay. And with respect to these persons here, these 12

20 individuals, did you have occasion to see anything on their uniforms with

21 which you could identify them as being members of the MUP, the Serbian

22 Ministry of Internal Affairs?

23 A. To tell you the truth, on such occasions one cannot look at others

24 very attentively because we avoided any possible contact, fearing death.

25 So we couldn't -- I couldn't describe them in detail, but they were

Page 4269

1 different from the prior ones because they had bandannas and they were

2 wearing another uniforms compared to the previous day.

3 Q. Okay.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: The ones you are referring to the on the previous

5 day, could you tell us what they were wearing?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The persons of the previous day were

7 wearing different uniforms from the ones we are talking about. The

8 later-day ones had bandannas, whereas the previous-day ones didn't. They

9 didn't have knives, they didn't have ribbons, as the ones on the 26th.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that. But these questions are about

11 police, and you indicated that there were police you saw on the 25th who

12 were different from them. Now, what uniforms were the police you saw on

13 the 25th wearing?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those of the 25th were wearing blue

15 uniforms as well as camouflage -- green camouflage uniforms of the army.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.


18 Q. Well, sir, I asked you earlier if in fact it was correct that

19 there was no one wearing a blue camouflage uniform in the group that came

20 to your village at 9.30 a.m. on March the 25th. How do you account for

21 the departure from that testimony that you have now made?

22 A. I haven't said anything different. I'm telling the truth. On the

23 25th there are forces, military forces, wearing camouflage uniforms as

24 well as -- green camouflage as well as police forces wearing blue

25 uniforms. I'm talking about the 25th of March.

Page 4270

1 Q. And that is nowhere in your written statement that you gave to the

2 Office of the Prosecutor dated July the 17th, 1999, is it?

3 A. If it's not there, maybe they didn't ask me about that.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Just to be clear, what was the nature of the blue

5 uniforms that you now say some of those present on the 25th were wearing?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the usual police uniform at

7 that time, not the army, the police.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Ivetic, you've ended up with a consistent

9 position.

10 MR. IVETIC: I don't believe I have.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Because your question was confined to blue

12 camouflage uniform, and that may be part of the problem.

13 MR. IVETIC: I don't believe it is, Your Honour, but I will

14 explore that --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: No, but I think you do agree your question was

16 confined to blue camouflage uniform at the beginning of your

17 cross-examination.

18 MR. IVETIC: That is correct.


20 I think what we'll do is break now, since you're obviously not at

21 the end of this, and we'll resume at 2.00.

22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Jemini, we have to break now. The lunch

24 break will be for one and a half hours, so you need to be back here to

25 continue your evidence at 2.00. Meanwhile, you should not discuss any

Page 4271

1 aspect of your evidence, either the evidence you've given already or the

2 evidence you may yet give with any person. Talk about anything else with

3 the people you're with at lunchtime, but you must not at any stage discuss

4 the evidence. Now, could you please leave the courtroom, and you'll be

5 shown where to go.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll resume at 2.00.

8 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 2.02 p.m.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jemini, the evidence will now continue.

12 Mr. Ivetic will continue with his cross-examination.

13 Mr. Ivetic.

14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour, and I hope to be brief. I

15 only have two areas to clear up and I'll return for the first part to

16 these uniforms that were there at 9.30 in the morning on March, the 25th.

17 Q. So now, sir, if you could please just confine our examination to

18 this time-period so that there's no confusion. You testified before the

19 break that there were police in this group. Now, I want to clear up a few

20 things so I can tell exactly who we are talking about. In this group that

21 came, this group of persons that came, there were green camouflage

22 uniforms with an eagle patch, a double-headed eagle patch on the one hand,

23 and there were police units on the other hand. Is that your testimony?

24 A. I think we're not understanding each other very well. On the 25th

25 of March, the military forces had camouflage uniforms, while in that group

Page 4272

1 of military forces there were also police with blue uniforms, blue

2 clothes. So there were two groups. There is a military group and a

3 police group, one with camouflage, one with blue, while the third group

4 which is in the third phase, they were Roma and the police, but these were

5 during the other days in the village. We have to be clear about these.

6 This is my explanation.

7 Q. I'm trying to be clear and I'm trying to clear it up in my own

8 mind as well as in the minds of everyone else here. Dealing with these

9 groups -- this group that came at 9.30 in the morning and the group that

10 you describe within there that were the police with blue uniforms, is it

11 your testimony that these were solid blue uniforms or blue camouflage

12 uniforms?

13 A. The uniforms were blue. The blue uniforms of the policemen, while

14 the camouflage uniforms were the uniforms of the army.

15 Q. I didn't ask you that, about the camouflage uniforms; I asked you

16 about the uniforms that you described as the police. Now, specifically

17 with respect to these blue uniforms that you describe, what symbols or

18 insignia did you see on those uniforms if any? That is to say, how did

19 you come to the conclusion that they were police? Based upon what did you

20 reach the conclusion that they were police?

21 A. Well, we know that because we lived in Kosova and we saw every day

22 Serbian police, and they wore blue uniforms; that was the uniform of the

23 Serbian police. I don't know what is not clear here. And they had the

24 insignia of the Serbian police. You must know what those insignia are. I

25 was not interested very much to see what the insignia were.

Page 4273

1 Q. Well, you said that I "must know what the insignia are." Why

2 don't you tell us what the insignia are on the police uniforms that you

3 saw. Describe them for us.

4 A. The double-headed eagle on the chest.

5 Q. And that's on the persons in the blue uniforms that you saw?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Now that we've cleared that up, let's move on to the group

8 that came in the -- the 12 individuals that were talked about earlier that

9 came in a troop carrier that only drove through your town. Okay. Can we

10 focus on those now?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, with respect to these individuals, I believe you had already

13 testified that you could not determine any type of insignia on their

14 uniforms. Is that accurate?

15 A. I did not see any kind of insignia. I saw only what I described

16 earlier, that they had camouflage uniforms with red bandannas and also

17 these knives in addition to the other weapons they were carrying.

18 Q. And based upon what criteria did you label these 12 individuals as

19 being police?

20 A. We had experience from the past, from the operations that the army

21 carried out and the other forces carried out in other parts of Kosova. So

22 we were able to see directly what they did.

23 Q. Sir --

24 A. As I said, these were not the forces of the day before.

25 Q. This troop carrier that was carrying them did not have any

Page 4274

1 markings of the Serbian police, did it?

2 A. The troop carrier had markings, but we did not see what those

3 marks -- those markings were. We just wanted to flee with our own lives.

4 Q. All right. And again, these troops continued down the road and

5 did not take part in any of the events in your village. Is that correct?

6 A. No. They moved on. From the place we were in the direction of

7 Krusha e Madhe. Maybe they went to the centre of the village, but we

8 don't know what they did.

9 Q. Okay.

10 MR. IVETIC: I have no further questions for this witness,

11 Your Honour. Thank you.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 Mr. Cepic.

14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Jemini. My name is Djuro

17 Cepic, one of the counsel for Mr. Vladimir Lazarevic. Today during your

18 examination-in-chief we heard that you did your military service in 1988,

19 and I presume that you wore the so-called Tito's cap, as did other

20 soldiers?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. In the statement given to the OTP investigators on the

23 17th of July, 1999, at page 2, paragraph 4, you describe the soldiers who

24 entered the village of Celina that day, and you say that they wore the

25 so-called Tito's cap on their heads. Is that correct?

Page 4275

1 A. I don't think I said "Tito's cap." Military caps, yes, but I

2 don't know what people would understand with this "Tito cap."

3 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. Are we safe

4 in this courtroom, having in mind the sound we just heard?

5 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sure we're safe, Mr. Cepic, just --

6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... don't move.

8 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. In your statement, as I said, on page 2, paragraph 4, you said

10 that those who seemed to have been in command wore dark green berets,

11 whereas the soldiers wore the so-called Tito's or Partizan-style cap, and

12 they all had the same double-headed eagle insignia. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes, the double-headed eagle. The soldiers had camouflage

14 uniforms, yes, but this Tito's cap, I don't understand.

15 Q. I can only quote your statement yet again, the one you gave on the

16 17th of July, 1999, in which you expressly state that the soldiers wore

17 the so-called Tito's cap.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, in Serbian, the usual phrase

19 is Tito's cap, and this is what Mr. Cepic keeps referring to, whereas in

20 the statement we have the so-called Partizan-style cap.

21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, my English says Partizan's.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: We're told that the -- but the question that's

23 being asked of you, Mr. Jemini, is about a phrase in your statement in

24 which you say that the officers wore dark green beret-style hats and the

25 soldiers wore the pointed Partizan-style hats. Do you remember saying

Page 4276

1 that?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Partizan style, yes, but I did

3 not understand that Tito's cap, what was mentioned before. But yes, this

4 Partizan style cap, I must have said that.

5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation].

6 Q. Perhaps I can clarify. They resemble the cap you must have been

7 wearing while doing your military service. Wouldn't you agree?

8 A. Something similar.

9 Q. What would you say if I told you that in the Army of Yugoslavia,

10 back from 1992, such caps were not in use altogether? What would be your

11 comment as regards that, Mr. Jemini?

12 A. I don't understand what style cap you're saying that were not used

13 after 1992. I did not analyse the kinds of caps that were used, whether

14 they were Tito's or Partizan or what you're saying.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's actually not true, Mr. Jemini, because

16 your statement says clearly - and you've confirmed today that it's true -

17 your statement says clearly that the soldiers at 9.30 on the 25th of March

18 wore the pointed, Partizan-style hats. Now, do you wish to withdraw that

19 part of your statement?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying that the soldiers, the

21 Serbian soldiers that came on the 25th of March, who came at 9.00 in the

22 morning, they had those caps. But as to this shape of Partizan or Tito's,

23 I'm not sure about that. They were similar. I'm not sure about this even

24 today.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic is now suggesting to you that these

Page 4277

1 pointed hats have not been worn since 1992, and he asked for your comment

2 on that.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, because from 1992 I

4 was not a member of the Yugoslav or Serbian army.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Carry on, Mr. Cepic, please.

7 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Two paragraphs below from the same statement you say that among

9 the soldiers you recognised some as being from Rahovec. Is that correct,

10 Mr. Jemini?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Those Rahovec soldiers, were they of 30 or 40 years of age, more

13 or less; your peers, so to say?

14 A. Yes, something like that.

15 Q. Do you know the names of some of the people you saw on that

16 occasion?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thank you. In the same statement, as referenced today, five

19 paragraphs below. This is in the English page 3, paragraph 6; in the

20 Albanian page 4, paragraph 2; and in the B/C/S, page 3, paragraph 5, you

21 speak of commanders who used radio communication and inter alia you say

22 that one of them said: "Don't let it happen the way it did in Racak." Do

23 you know who participated in the Racak incident? Could you please answer

24 with a yes or no.

25 A. No.

Page 4278

1 Q. Thank you. Let us move on. Mr. Jemini, on the 9th of January,

2 1999, do you remember a meeting in your village of Celina with Mr. John

3 Fernandez, who was a senior officer for human rights with the OSCE

4 mission, as well as another OSCE representative in Prizren, a Mr. Alex

5 MacKenzie?

6 A. You mean us or somebody else had that meeting?

7 Q. You personally, in the village of Celina together with the two

8 OSCE representatives you met?

9 A. I can't remember. It could be possible.

10 Q. Perhaps I can jog your memory by saying that on that occasion you

11 expressed the uncertainty that could be felt with the villagers because

12 the Army of Yugoslavia was setting up a check-point at the entrance of the

13 village, and twice daily they would go to the check-point using an APC and

14 some 25 soldiers. Wasn't that the main issue discussed at the meeting,

15 Mr. Jemini?

16 A. Yes, now I remember. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. And at that meeting you said that the villagers were ready to

18 support any actions by the so-called KLA as a response to this type of

19 provocation unless the Army of Yugoslavia ceases to behave that way. You

20 also stated: Rest assured that the soldiers will not advance because"they

21 are afraid to enter the village." This is what you stated to these two

22 gentlemen, didn't you, Mr. Jemini?

23 A. If you could repeat the question again, please.

24 Q. As I said. The main topic was the VJ presence at a check-point at

25 the entrance of the village, and then you stated that villagers, the

Page 4279

1 inhabitants of Celina, were ready to support any KLA activity by way of

2 response to the provocation unless the VJ ceases to behave this way. Then

3 you continue: "In keeping with that, you can rest assured that the

4 soldiers will not advance because they are afraid to enter the village."

5 A. Everything was correct but what you said about the villagers, that

6 they would support the KLA, that's not correct. The villagers asked that

7 the check-point be removed from the village because it affected the

8 situation in the area. The villagers answered that: We cannot guarantee

9 what the situation be like if they intervene in the village.

10 Q. Thank you?

11 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no more questions

12 for this witness.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.

14 Mr. Hannis.

15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:

17 Q. Mr. Jemini, I just have a few questions for you regarding where

18 you were hiding in the house and where the commanders were on the balcony.

19 Whether it was 12 metres away or twice or three times that distance, were

20 you able to clearly hear the conversations?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the photo IC58 that we looked at, does that show all the

23 angles from which you can look out that window?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you say you were able to see the schoolhouse from that window?

Page 4280

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Even though it's not depicted in the photograph?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So I take it you would have to move from the position the

5 photographer was standing in to be able to see the school?

6 A. Yes, of course. We moved about in -- under the roof there in

7 order to be able to see what happened in the whole village.

8 Q. And Mr. Ivetic at page 69, lines 6 through 9, asked you about

9 civil protection services. Can you tell us, what did they do? What was

10 their job?

11 A. During the past ten years nothing was functioning with regard to

12 civil protection in the municipality.

13 Q. So did -- were there any people assigned to that organisation or

14 unit?

15 A. Not in the village, but maybe at the municipality level.

16 Q. Do you know what sort of work they were supposed to do in the

17 municipality?

18 A. They had their own agendas. I don't know their agenda, but I

19 would suppose to protect the population from the provocations and the

20 pressure that was exercised on the population. But they did not carry out

21 their duty to protect the population from the provocations.

22 Q. Lastly I want to re-visit the attic where you and your cousin were

23 hiding. Mr. Ackerman asked you at page 63, lines 6 through 9 today, of --

24 a couple of questions. And you answered them both but I'm not clear. Did

25 you really raise the tiles on the roof to get a look at what was happening

Page 4281

1 around the village?

2 A. Yes. We moved them a little bit so that we would be able to see

3 what was going on in the rest of the village, because probably this is not

4 clear to you. I would like to say, this is just a hundred square metres

5 that we were situated. It was possible to move the tiles a little bit so

6 that we could see other parts of the village. I apologise for this

7 explanation that I added.

8 Q. Okay. And so your answer to the question about whether or not you

9 were making up that story about moving the tiles, what is your answer?

10 Did you make that up?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you?

13 MR. HANNIS: No further questions, Your Honour.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jemini, I just want to ask you one thing. You

16 referred to soldiers demanding money and your father saying that he had

17 12.000 Deutschemarks. What happened to the 12.000 Deutschemarks?

18 A. When they were forced to leave the basement, my mother, my father,

19 my uncle, his wife, and his son, they were asked whether they had money on

20 them. My father said: Yes. And then they asked him: Where is the

21 money? And they -- he said: I have the money in the bedroom in the house

22 next to the house they were at. And he was accompanied to the room, to

23 the bedroom. They got the money, and then they came back to the place

24 where they were shot dead.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

Page 4282

1 Thank you, Mr. Jemini, that completes your evidence. Thank you

2 for coming to the Tribunal again to give your evidence and to add to it.

3 You're now free to leave.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

7 MR. HANNIS: Ms. Moeller has the next witness, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.

9 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, the next witness is Lutfi Ramadani and

10 he is a live witness. I'll just swap places with Mr. Hannis quickly.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Are we still in Celina?

12 MS. MOELLER: No, Your Honours. We -- this witness is a survivor

13 of a killing incident that is charged in paragraph 75(c) in the indictment

14 and Schedule C. It's the village Krusha e Vogel, in Serbian Mala Krusa.

15 And his evidence is also relevant to 72(a), 77 (a) and (b), and 25 to 32.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Ramadani.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

22 tell the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed

23 before you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 4283

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

2 We'll go straight into the questions that you'll be asked and the

3 first person to question you will be for the Prosecutor, Ms. Moeller.

4 Ms. Moeller.

5 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Examination by Ms. Moeller:

9 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. Can you please state your name for the record.

12 A. Lutfi Ramadani.

13 Q. And are you married?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you have children?

16 A. Yes, I have two children. I used to have four; two were killed.

17 Now I have only two.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one moment.

19 Could you please spell your first name.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lutfi Ramadani, from Krusha e Vogel

21 village.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that's clear enough. All the documents

23 have it spelled wrong, I think, but it's correct now, it's corrected in

24 the transcript.

25 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 4284

1 Q. Mr. Ramadani, where did you live in March 1999?

2 A. In Krusha e Vogel.

3 Q. And how big was your village at the time, how many inhabitants

4 were there?

5 A. It had 70 households and 800 inhabitants. 112 have been shot and

6 burned.

7 Q. And how was the ethnic composition of your village in March 1999?

8 A. In 1999 they surrounded us.

9 Q. Excuse me, sir, I think maybe my question was not clear. Krusha e

10 Vogel in March 1999, did only Kosovo Albanians live in your village or

11 also Serbs?

12 A. There were also Serbs along with the Albanians.

13 Q. And were there other ethnicities as well?

14 A. There were Romas, two households of Romas.

15 Q. And how was the relationship between the Albanian villagers and

16 the Serb villagers and the other two households of Romas which you

17 mentioned before the 24th -- yeah, the 24th of March, 1999?

18 A. From 1989 or 1990, our relationship was good with everyone. From

19 1999 or 1990 [as interpreted] the situation started a little to be

20 worsened. We didn't have any quarrels, any problems among ourselves.

21 Q. And now I would like to talk with you about the 25th of March,

22 1999, the day after the NATO air campaign started. In the morning of the

23 25th March 1999, what did you observe in your village Krusha e Vogel?

24 A. On the 25th of March, at 4.00, we saw that we were surrounded from

25 all sides with tanks and anti-aircraft artillery weapons, armoured cars.

Page 4285

1 The road that goes to Prizren-Gjakova was full of tanks and such artillery

2 weapons. The armoured cars came to the village streets.

3 Q. And how far away is the road that you mentioned between Prizren

4 and Gjakova from the centre of the village?

5 A. It goes to the village -- it goes through the village or at the

6 edge of the village. There are houses on both sides of the street.

7 Q. And did you also see any persons who would man these vehicles in

8 this morning?

9 A. My house is at the outskirts of the village from where you can see

10 the Prizren-Gjakova road, and I saw the tanks, the anti-aircraft parked

11 there. And in the streets of the village, as I said, there were armoured

12 cars.

13 Q. And did anyone enter your village from the outside who arrived

14 with these vehicles? Did you see any uniformed persons coming into your

15 village that morning?

16 A. Yes, there were. At the edge of the village from the asphalt

17 road, some vehicles came and stopped there, whereas the army was stationed

18 besides the asphalt road. The militia entered the village, they entered

19 the houses and started setting them on fire and shooting.

20 Q. And how did the people that you called the militia look? How were

21 they dressed? Which kind of uniform, if any, did they wear?

22 A. They had black uniforms but also other uniforms. They could wear

23 whatever clothes they wanted and wished. There wasn't a single type of

24 uniforms -- uniform. There were several.

25 Q. Can you describe the several kinds of uniforms that you saw in

Page 4286

1 your village that morning?

2 A. There were black and camouflage uniforms.

3 Q. And the camouflage uniform, which colour did they have?

4 A. I think I answered your questions. I said black and

5 multi-coloured camouflage. I didn't pay any close attention to the

6 colours, to tell you the truth, because our main concern was to escape.

7 Q. Did you note at this time also some local persons in uniform who

8 you would know from your village?

9 A. Yes. They were from the village. There were others who we didn't

10 know, but those from the village were in the lead. They told them where

11 the houses of Albanians were, and they entered these houses and set them

12 on fire immediately. When they started shooting and set fire to the

13 houses, then the people began to leave the houses and to flee the village.

14 We went to a stream, and we stayed there in the house of Adem --

15 Q. Sir, these local people that you just referred to, what did they

16 wear?

17 A. The clothes of the militia, but there were also people without

18 uniforms. They had some bandannas on the heads, white and red, like

19 ribbons tied on their heads.

20 Q. Among the local Serb people, do you recall any particular

21 persons? You know the names of who were among them?

22 A. Yes. Nikolic Dimitrije, Nikolic Ranko --

23 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour, is the witness reading right

24 now?

25 MS. MOELLER: No, there is no paper in front of him, nothing.

Page 4287

1 MR. LUKIC: I just wanted to be clear.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 Please continue, Mr. Ramadani, with the names that you can

4 remember.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nikolic Momcilo, Nikolic Sava, Thaqi

6 Sreto [phoen], Djordjevic Zlatko, Cvetkovic Djordje, Petkovic Ranko, they

7 were in uniform and armed.


9 Q. And which colour had their uniforms?

10 A. The uniform of the militia, black.

11 Q. Had you seen any of those people you just listed, seen wearing

12 this uniform or any uniform before that day?

13 A. They were there sometimes some months ago, sometimes in uniform,

14 sometimes without uniforms.

15 Q. And you just said that they were leading the other persons that

16 you did not know into the village, showing them the houses. Is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, together with them. They were together, those whom we knew

19 and those we didn't. They entered the houses together on the 25th.

20 Q. And what did they do in the houses?

21 A. They set them on fire, especially those houses that were situated

22 on the side of the asphalt road, they set them on fire on the 25th.

23 Q. You already mentioned that you and the population of the village

24 fled after that happened or when that happened. Where -- where did you go

25 to?

Page 4288

1 A. We went to the stream of Adem Isufi. It is not very far from the

2 village, I would say. We stayed there only one day. On the 25th when

3 night came at 7.00 it became cold because there were elderly women and

4 men, young children, babies, newly born babies, and then we went to the

5 house of Sejdi Batusha and we spent one night there.

6 Q. How many people were with you in these woods?

7 A. I couldn't count them, about 500, more than 500.

8 Q. And did all of the people return in the evening to the village or

9 did some stay in the wood overnight?

10 A. We returned, almost all returned, with the exception of two

11 families which remained there. Liman Hazeri, with his wife, son, and Nebi

12 Hazeri with his wife, son.

13 Q. And during the stay that you spent hiding in the woods, what did

14 you observe going on in Krusha e Vogel?

15 A. We heard firing, firing which none of the shots hit anyone from

16 the population.

17 MS. MOELLER: Could we call up Exhibit P99, page 1, please.

18 Q. Mr. Ramadani, we're calling up a picture on the screen in front of

19 you, and I would like to have you have a look at this picture, at this

20 photo. Can you see the photo on the screen?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you see on this photo approximately the woods where you were

23 hiding that day?

24 A. Yes, yes, I can.

25 Q. The usher will give you a pen and if you could -- if you could

Page 4289

1 draft an A where you were hiding.

2 A. Yes, I can. This is the forest here where we hid, here. The

3 photo doesn't show all of it because the place where we stayed is here at

4 this corner. There is a stream here where we hid.

5 MS. MOELLER: May the record reflect that the witness made a mark

6 in the very left corner of this photograph, depicting the approximate area

7 where they hid in the woods.

8 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you also said that when you returned in the evening

9 that you went to a specific house. Could you say again whose house that

10 was?

11 A. The house of Sejdi Batusha. It's not in the photo here. There is

12 a vineyard here, they belong to Sejdi Batusha.

13 Q. You do not see the Sejdi Batusha house on this photograph?

14 A. It's here, above the road, not the first one but this one. There

15 are three houses here in line, but the photo doesn't show it very well

16 because there was another house here at the corner.

17 MS. MOELLER: Can we maybe take a snap-shot of this one and then

18 zoom in a little bit?

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC64, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

21 MS. MOELLER: And then zoom in, in the left area of the houses

22 which are a little bit outside of the main village.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now it's okay.


25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 4290

1 A. Now it's fine.

2 MS. MOELLER: Can you assist with the pen one more time.

3 Q. Mr. Ramadani, do you think you can mark the house here?

4 A. I can see it very well now. This is the oda or the guestroom.

5 There was a two-storey house here, and this house here, it's okay, this is

6 how it was. These are the houses of Sejdi Batusha, and this belongs also

7 to Sejdi Batusha.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MS. MOELLER: Could we take a snap-shot of this picture, please?

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC65, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


13 Q. Mr. Batusha [sic], how many people were in this house in the night

14 between the 25th and the 26th March?

15 A. On the 25th of March, in the evening, we went there. We entered

16 the oda and the women entered other rooms. All of us, about 500, with the

17 exception of the two families that did not return, all of us went into

18 those rooms. On the next day, on the 26th, we walk and went out in the

19 yard. It was about 7.00.

20 Q. Yes. And what did you see this morning? What was the general

21 situation in the village this morning?

22 A. We woke up at about 6.30 or 7.00. I'm not sure about the exact

23 time. At about 8.00 we heard firing again. The Serbs from the village

24 with the help of other Serbs started to open fire and loot and raid the

25 houses, taking away the most valuable things, tractors or cars, and then

Page 4291

1 after they removed all the valuables they set fire to the houses, while

2 they were burning the houses and -- they were approaching the population.

3 In the meantime Isen Kanjusha who lives near Sejdi Batusha went to set

4 free the cows to send them to graze, and he was killed.

5 Q. Thank you, sir, just to clarify. You referred to the other Serbs

6 who were together with the Serb locals. Were -- how did these other Serbs

7 look, how were they dressed?

8 A. They were dressed in the police uniform.

9 Q. Thank you. What happened next then after --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, can we have a name for the person who was

11 killed, please?

12 MS. MOELLER: Yes.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you tell us the name of the person you said was

14 killed.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Isen. Ramadani is his last name,

16 but he called him Isen Kanjusha.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


19 Q. And how was he killed, Mr. Ramadani?

20 A. He was killed from the Boshki [phoen] or Seka's [phoen] house, he

21 was killed by the Serbs who shot him from that house.

22 Q. Do you know the full name of this Boshki or Seka?

23 A. Stankovic Bosko, this is how we called him because their names are

24 different from ours.

25 Q. And the Serbs who shot him from this house, who were they? Did

Page 4292

1 you know them from before?

2 A. We were not far. We were here in this courtyard. Isen Kanjusha's

3 house is here.

4 Q. Yes, I think you didn't answer the question. Did you -- did you

5 also recognise the people who shot or were these people who were not from

6 the village?

7 A. We didn't see them from where they shot. We saw them that they

8 shot from the balcony, but we couldn't say who they were because it's more

9 than 200 metres away from where we were.

10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ramadani, you said you were standing in the yard

11 together with the other people. Were you approached by anyone at any time

12 that morning?

13 A. They were setting fire to houses and they were approaching, so

14 this is Milaim Batusha's house and then Liman and Sait's house. And in

15 this last house where they came they removed the tiles and they put the

16 barrels of their guns there. They also went to another house and they

17 took position at the windows. Because of the fear, because of these

18 things that were happening, the women were so scared, terrified, and some

19 of them fainted.

20 We couldn't help anybody because no one would allow us to help

21 these people who fainted. So somebody called a volunteer Aziz Shehu was

22 called. He was told to go to the mountain and to the stream and call the

23 people who were hiding there, and he came back with Liman Hazeri, his son

24 was paralyzed, and they came back where we were, where the population was,

25 and they ordered us to leave all our clothes here and leave, go out on the

Page 4293

1 main street, women in a group and men in another group.

2 Q. Let me stop you here. Who sent Aziz Shehu to collect the people

3 from the woods who were still hiding there?

4 A. Who called Aziz there? It's not clear to me.

5 Q. Who told Aziz that he should get the people out of the woods and

6 back into the village?

7 A. Okay, yes. The ones that were at Milaim's house, the policemen

8 who were at Milaim's house. I did not see them because the curtain was

9 down, but it was them who ordered him to go and collect those people.

10 Q. And when all those people were then collected and assembled in the

11 yard, what happened then?

12 A. When they came to the yard, the order was to go out on the street,

13 women separately from men. Some of the children went with women, those

14 who were 15 years old and under.

15 Q. And who gave those orders?

16 A. The order was given by the police from Milaim's house. Some of

17 these policemen were not known by the people, we did not know them.

18 Q. And what happened to the women then after they were ordered to

19 assemble in one group with some of the children?

20 A. The children who were under 15 years old went with the women, and

21 Cvetkovic Djordje ordered the policemen to go to the women, and those

22 children who were 13 years old and up to be brought to the men. So they

23 went there. The women wouldn't let their children go. They started to

24 use force, and women were so frightened some children were let go then.

25 It was about 14 children. Among those -- my son was among them.

Page 4294

1 Q. And this Cvetkovic Djordje is a man that you mentioned earlier

2 today and you said all of a sudden he was also wearing a uniform?

3 A. Yes. He was wearing a uniform, Cvetkovic Djordje.

4 Q. Were Cvetkovic Djordje and the other men, were they saying

5 something to the children?

6 A. No, no. They were staying at Milaim's house. It's above there.

7 They just told other policemen, these were unknown policemen to us, and

8 they went to the women.

9 Q. And did they say anything to the women?

10 A. Who do you mean? The policemen, the unknown policemen? I'm

11 sorry, maybe my question was really unclear. I rephrase that. After the

12 women were assembled together with some children, this group, what were

13 they ordered to do.

14 A. The women were crying: You took our women -- you took our men,

15 you're taking our children away. What can we do? And they told them: Go

16 to Albania. When the women were leaving, we were ordered to -- to take

17 off our clothes and put our hands up on our heads.

18 Q. Yes. After the women -- just to make this clear for the

19 Honourable Judges, after the women were told, "Go to Albania," did they

20 leave the village?

21 A. Either go and drown yourself in the Drini River or go to Albania,

22 and then they took the road to Drini. When they left, we did not see them

23 anymore, but the women can testify themselves where they went.

24 Q. Yes, sir. Was your wife in this group of women?

25 A. Yes, my wife was in that group. And my daughters-in-law, all the

Page 4295

1 women in the village.

2 Q. And after the group of women had left towards the direction of the

3 Drini River, what did the policemen tell you, the group of men, to do?

4 A. We were told to kneel down, put our hands up. Some policemen in

5 uniform came, and they ill treated us. Some of us were beaten. They

6 asked us to give them our wallets, money, documents. Adem Isufi was

7 ordered to collect all the documents and the money and give the money to

8 them.

9 Then another group came. There were people in masks in that

10 group, but also people without masks. They swore a little bit, but they

11 didn't beat anyone. They left. They asked for the car keys. They got

12 the car keys. And after this we stayed there for a little while. We were

13 ordered to stand up and line up in threes and walk towards the road. And

14 we were led to Qazim Batusha's gate. We turned right and went to the

15 barn, Qazim Batusha's barn.

16 Q. Let me stop you here shortly to clarify some issues.

17 A. It's okay.

18 Q. First of all you said the second group of persons who came and who

19 wore masks, did they also wear uniform or other clothes?

20 A. Yes, they had uniforms and masks. Generally the people -- those

21 people had uniforms, but some of them, a couple, two or three of them, had

22 masks on.

23 Q. And what colour have these uniforms?

24 A. The same, black.

25 Q. Now I would like to talk with you a little bit about the men in

Page 4296

1 this big group. How old was the youngest in this group, if you know?

2 A. 13 years old to the elderly, 75.

3 Q. And how many under-aged persons were in this group,

4 approximately?

5 A. There were about 14 under 15-year-olds there were more under 18,

6 but I didn't count them. But I counted the ones under 15, who were 14,

7 and I wrote them down.

8 Q. And was there more than one elderly person in this group?

9 A. There were a lot of elderly people.

10 Q. And were all the men in this group healthy persons or was there

11 anyone with disabilities?

12 A. There were two mentally disabled. There were two other people who

13 were paralyzed, Liman and Sait Hajdari, while the ones who were mentally

14 disabled were younger. One of them was called Bekim.

15 Q. Thank you, sir.

16 MS. MOELLER: I would like to call up Exhibit P99, page 1 again,

17 please. Sir --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: I think it's on the screen now.

19 MS. MOELLER: Yes. Yes. Thank you.

20 Can we zoom in maybe a little bit?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a little bit, please, yes. If

22 you could enlarge it a little bit more, please.

23 MS. MOELLER: Yes.

24 Q. I think -- would that be --

25 MS. MOELLER: Yes, he needs his glasses to look at that closely.

Page 4297

1 Q. Mr. Ramadani, can you see --

2 A. Could you hold on for just a minute?

3 Q. Of course.

4 A. Yes, now I can see it.

5 Q. If you can, I would like you -- you already marked earlier the

6 house where the yard was where you were assembled. And now I would like

7 to mark you, if you can, the road that you were marched down to the

8 Batusha barn that you already mentioned, you and all the other men.

9 A. Yes, yes. This route, here we were divided. We took a turn here

10 and there are two big holes here. It was here. There are two holes.

11 This is the destroyed house, and after the war only these two holes are

12 here.

13 Q. The two holes -- sorry, the two dots that you put on, just to

14 clarify, that was where the Batusha barn was standing, where you were

15 marched to that day?

16 A. Yes, it's a barn -- a cowshed where he kept his cows and also

17 food.

18 Q. Yes --

19 MS. MOELLER: Is that clear for the record, Your Honours?

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I think so, yes.


22 Q. Mr. Ramadani, could you also draw a red line back to the house

23 where you were coming from, in the yard of which you had been assembled

24 when the march started.

25 A. From here, yes, this is the house of Sejdi Batusha. From here.

Page 4298

1 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani.

2 A. My hand is trembling a little bit.

3 Q. That's very understandable, sir. Thank you very much.

4 MS. MOELLER: May the record reflect that the red line drawn is

5 the way that the men were taken down to the barn.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 MS. MOELLER: And can we take a snap-shot of this picture, please?

8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC66, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


11 Q. Sir, you already mentioned that it was a kind of a cowshed --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the OTP give a

14 time reference when this photograph was taken? I believe it would be very

15 helpful, and it could be done at a later stage. It needn't be done

16 immediately.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you know the answer, Ms. Moeller?

18 MS. MOELLER: I think it was taken in summer 1999, but I would

19 like to verify the exact date.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.


22 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you already mentioned it was a kind of a cow stable,

23 that building. How many rooms had it?

24 A. Yes. Two rooms and a corridor. There was some hay, some fodder

25 there, that was all there was there when we entered.

Page 4299

1 Q. And did all the 110 men enter this cowshed, these two rooms and

2 the corridor?

3 A. 109, we entered the cowshed, while 103 remained there, they were

4 executed and burned. Six survived, and we are alive to this day. But we

5 don't know where the remains of the rest are, where the Serbs of the

6 village took them.

7 Q. Yes. Mr. Ramadani, when you were all in this -- in this cow

8 stable, in the cowshed, did you hear the policemen who escorted you there

9 say anything?

10 A. There were several policemen. There were many along the road when

11 we were walking, some we knew, some we didn't. But two of them got into

12 the corridor. We were packed in that corridor, and they told us, some

13 people, to go to one room, others to go to the other room. Myself, I

14 stayed in the corridor.

15 Q. And you mentioned that there were also physically disabled men

16 with you. Were these men able to walk or how did they get to the cowshed?

17 A. They were inside as well. I said they were mentally disabled.

18 They were -- their psyche was not -- they had psychological problems.

19 Q. Sorry, was there anyone in this group in a wheelchair?

20 A. Yes, Sait Hajdari was in a wheelchair and also Avdyl Limani

21 [phoen] was also paralyzed and he had to be carried.

22 Q. And where was the man in the wheelchair in the stable, in which

23 room were where in the corridor?

24 A. Sait Hajdari was at the doorstep. When I got out of there, I

25 pushed him a little bit. He was killed. He was covered in blood. I had

Page 4300

1 to push him a little bit in order to be able to go out.

2 Q. Now, Mr. Ramadani, when you were all in that -- all assembled in

3 that cowshed, what did the policemen do to all the men there?

4 A. The policemen were staying outside. Some of them were guarding

5 us. Then other policemen came. I did not see them; I couldn't. I saw

6 this policeman who had a machine-gun, and the other one said: "Why are

7 you late?" And this one said: "Well, I'll take care of it now." And he

8 opened fire. It was non-stop fire until he finished all his bullets. And

9 then they came with a rifle and whoever who could raise their heads, they

10 shot them single shots. I heard single shots. And then they set the

11 place on fire. People started to burn. I started to burn. Then I slowly

12 began to go out. It was six people. We got out. Some went to the

13 meadow. I went in the direction of Krusha e Madhe. This was

14 non-asphalted road, and there were blood traces on the road, but we were

15 shot. We were shot from the asphalted road again.

16 Q. Sir, you -- how did you leave the barn, through which -- which

17 way? Did you leave it through the entrance door or through any of the

18 windows?

19 A. I left through the entrance.

20 Q. And when you came out of this barn, did you see and recognise

21 anyone in the vicinity of the barn?

22 A. Yes. I saw them on this road here that goes down. They were

23 talking. There was some policemen talking to each other, but I think

24 there was some civilians as well because I was trying to get away from

25 there, to save my life. So it was me, Agim, and Bajram, we got out of

Page 4301

1 there. Some went down, some -- along the houses.

2 Q. And in this group that was standing close to the barn or on the

3 village road, you said, was there any of your co -- Serb co-villagers that

4 you knew?

5 A. There were Serbs from the village, but there were other policemen

6 that we didn't know.

7 Q. Do you recall who of the Serb villagers were there?

8 A. There was Boshki, Cveta, Bushki [phoen], et cetera.

9 Q. What would be the full name of Boshki, please, if you know?

10 A. Stankovic Bosko. His house is right here, very close. Seka is

11 Stankovic -- Stanko Nikolic, and the other one is Rade Nikolic.

12 Q. Who is Bushki?

13 A. Cvetkovic, Cvetkovic Bosko.

14 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ramadani, were you injured in this shooting and

15 burning of the Batusha barn?

16 A. I was not hit by a bullet, but I was burned, this side of my body,

17 all of it.

18 Q. And when -- in the moment you made it out of this cowshed, did you

19 know of all five other survivors being alive or how many did you actually

20 see yourself?

21 A. At that time I saw Petrit, he was alive. He was leaning on the

22 wall. He was feeling the way along the wall, and his cousin -- but then

23 he was killed at the stream Qamil Shehu, but he left a little later, while

24 myself, Bajram, and Agim, we left together, all of us three.

25 Q. Sir, were you -- two of your sons in the group with you in this

Page 4302

1 cowshed?

2 A. Yes. My two sons, my brother and his son, they remained there.

3 Q. You said "they remained there." To your knowledge, did they

4 survive this incident?

5 A. No, they were burned. They were burned. 80 per cent of the

6 people I think died because of the flames. Only 20 per cent died because

7 of the bullets.

8 Q. How old was your younger son who died there?

9 A. 14 and a half.

10 Q. And how old was the other one?

11 A. 27.

12 Q. And how old was your brother?

13 A. 54.

14 Q. And your nephew, how old was he?

15 A. By nephew was 28 years old.

16 Q. And can you also give us the names of your four relatives?

17 A. My sons, the youngest was called Bajram, the other one Afrim.

18 Afrim Ramadani and Bajram Ramadani. My brother Murat Ramadani and his

19 son, Selajdin Ramadani.

20 Q. Thank you, sir.

21 A. You're welcome.

22 Q. When you managed to flee from the stable, in which direction did

23 you flee?

24 A. I went along this road. It's a road that goes towards Krusha e

25 Madhe. It's not asphalted, that road. From the asphalted road, we were

Page 4303

1 shot at, and we were not able to walk further, so we went down the stream

2 and then into the forest.

3 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I notice the time. I still have a

4 couple of questions for the witness.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what's your estimate of the time for these

6 questions?

7 MS. MOELLER: Maybe 10, 15 minutes.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. We'll break just now then and we'll

9 resume in half an hour.

10 Mr. Ramadani, we have to have a break at this stage for half an

11 hour. Could you please go with the court usher; he'll show you where to

12 wait until we resume.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall resume at 4.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Your evidence will now continue, Mr. Ramadani.

20 Ms. Moeller.

21 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Q. Mr. Ramadani, we stopped at the point after you had managed to

23 leave the Batusha barn and to flee along the stream. After you did so,

24 did you return to the vicinity of your village, Krusha e Vogel, in this

25 week?

Page 4304

1 A. I stayed for ten days in the mountains of Krusha e Vogel.

2 Q. And during this time, what could you observe going on in -- in and

3 around Krusha e Vogel?

4 A. There wasn't much I could see because I was in the forest; during

5 the day I stayed there and I moved about at night. I could hear [as

6 interpreted] the stench of dead bodies and because of the burning houses

7 it was very difficult to breathe in the stream where I was staying. But as

8 for seeing, it was very little I could see. I could see some movements of

9 the Serbs. The army and the police left.

10 Q. You say movements of the Serbs, army and police, do you refer to

11 army vehicles or to -- what kind of movements did you see?

12 A. I mean the vehicles, they left. The vehicles of the army, they

13 left after two or three days, they left the village.

14 Q. And after you had stayed in the vicinity of your village for about

15 ten days, what did you do then?

16 A. Then I went to -- to Drini and I stayed in Bjeshkat e Hasit for

17 another five weeks.

18 Q. And where did you stay there, did you stay in the village or did

19 you still stay in the woods?

20 A. In the woods.

21 Q. And how would you feed yourself during these weeks?

22 A. At night we went to some houses, found something to eat there, and

23 like this we managed.

24 Q. You say "we." Were you in the company of someone else?

25 A. We were four people.

Page 4305

1 Q. Who else was with you there?

2 A. Bajram Zylfiu was with me. He was one of the survivors of that

3 massacre, there was also Gani Zulfiu and Safet Berisha.

4 Q. These other two men, apart from Bajram Zylfiu, where were they

5 from, if you know?

6 A. They were from Krusha e Vogel, too; they were neighbours.

7 Q. Were they also survivors of the massacre?

8 A. No, they were not survivors. They were not mountains. We met by

9 accident. Myself and Bajram were the two survivors. They had left the

10 village before the massacre, these other two. They wanted to escape

11 falling into the Serbs' hands.

12 Q. And during that time that you were in the woods, these weeks, did

13 you find any way to treat your burn wounds on your arm?

14 A. We tried to treat it by some popular, let's say, medicine like

15 yoghurt. We used some yogurt.

16 Q. Where did you get this yogurt from?

17 A. We went to some houses in Has, on the other side of Drin, and we

18 found this yogurt that the population had left behind. It was sour yogurt

19 and that was what I used to treat my hands.

20 Q. Was there any population around when you went to these villages to

21 get food and treatment or were they --

22 A. No, no, there was no one left because the people had fled. They

23 had gone to Albania. The houses were deserted.

24 Q. Mr. Ramadani, when you came to The Hague this week, did you

25 provide a list of names to the Prosecution?

Page 4306

1 A. I'm sorry, what list do you mean?

2 MS. MOELLER: Can we call up Exhibit P2357, please?

3 Q. A document which contains the names of the men who were killed in

4 the Batusha barn and some other names?

5 A. Yes. These are the names of the village inhabitants which I

6 prepared, and then when that happened I drew from the list the names. I

7 have a list of 39 people of Shehu family; then come Batusha family, 22

8 people. I apologise but Shehu -- from the Shehu family, five didn't leave

9 their houses and they are found in another list.

10 Q. Yes. Can you have a look at this document which is on the screen,

11 and see where this is the document that you provided to us this week?

12 A. I think so, must be it. Nuredin Qazim Shehu, Sefer Nuredin Shehu,

13 yes, yes, that's the right list.

14 Q. And this is a typed-up document. Who typed in document?

15 A. Yes, it is typed. I typed it. I wrote it in fact by my hand and

16 then went somewhere else to have it typed.

17 Q. And when did you first draft up the handwritten list, which is the

18 basis of this document, the names?

19 A. I drew up this list immediately after the war.

20 Q. Can you say approximately when? Was it in 1999?

21 A. After 1999, when the investigators came to take the notes, this is

22 when I prepared -- maybe it was a little -- a while after them, after they

23 came. But at that moment I wasn't feeling very good. I couldn't

24 concentrate very much.

25 Q. And do you -- do you maintain that all these men who are listed on

Page 4307

1 page 1 and two of this list were men who were with you in the Batusha barn

2 and who have not been seen since?

3 A. Yes. They were not seen ever since, and to this date we don't

4 know of what happened to their remains. But maybe the accused and their

5 Defence lawyers know where the remains of these people are found.

6 Q. Could I also ask you to have a look at page 3 of this document,

7 please.

8 MS. MOELLER: Could we go to page 3, please? I think this is page

9 2.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 MS. MOELLER: The next page, please. I would need the next page.

12 Yes. Could we zoom in a little bit.

13 Q. Mr. Ramadani, the first five names on this list, are these the men

14 who survived this massacre, to your knowledge?

15 A. Yes. These people are alive to this day, and they are the

16 survivors of that massacre.

17 MS. MOELLER: And could we scroll down, please? Further.

18 Q. The last eight names at the bottom of the list --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are these local people from your village whom you saw

21 participating that day in the events in your village and who we talked

22 about, some of them, earlier today?

23 A. Yes, they are local Serbs from our village, whom I mentioned

24 earlier Dimitrije, Ranko, Momcilo, and others.

25 MS. MOELLER: And could we scroll up a little bit again to see the

Page 4308

1 middle part?

2 Q. And, Mr. Ramadani, the nine persons who are listed in this part,

3 who are they?

4 A. These are from our village, but these are people who did not leave

5 their houses, thinking that nobody would harass them. But they were

6 burned at home, all of these persons. Nine people. We found them, only

7 their skeletons burned, and then we buried their skeletons.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, we would like to tender this document.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 MR. LUKIC: Actually, Your Honour, I think that we have some

12 objections regarding this document, but I don't think that you want to

13 hear them now. Or you do?

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, what is your objection?

15 MR. LUKIC: To be honest with you, I saw this document 15 minutes

16 ago for the first time; and the second thing is that these, for example,

17 nine names, I think have never been mentioned before and this is the first

18 time we saw these names. We were not able to do any kind of investigation

19 on this part, and it's not in 65 ter motion either.

20 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, may I assist maybe to clarify?


22 MS. MOELLER: The nine names that we talked about just now, the

23 nine additional people who the witness says were killed and were burned in

24 houses, they are indeed not in Schedule C, and I just had this addressed

25 for completeness. As to the provision of the document, the witness

Page 4309

1 brought it only when he arrived at the Tribunal, which was very late in

2 the week, according -- pursuant to some visa problems. And we provided it

3 early this morning to the Defence, and we only received it yesterday de

4 facto. Last night we sent supplemental information that such list had

5 been provided and that names had been put forward, and we would wish to

6 tender the document as far as it concerns the names of the people who died

7 according to the witness in the same killing incident that he survived and

8 with regard to the Serb persons named in the document, which he also

9 referred to earlier in his testimony, and with regard to the survivors to

10 make the record complete.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

12 This document is of the nature of an aide-memoire in relation to

13 evidence that the witness could give orally. There is no question of a

14 conviction being sought in respect of the nine names in the middle of page

15 three. In these circumstances, it's appropriate to admit this document to

16 explain the evidence in a form that's easily read by everyone. Obviously,

17 if the Defence demonstrate in due course any prejudice as a result of the

18 late intimation of this document, albeit the information generally

19 contained and it was available to them, then we would consider any

20 application to remedy the prejudice.

21 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Q. Mr. Ramadani --

23 A. I have a question. Can I ask it, please? They were burned on the

24 25th, because when the police entered they didn't leave their houses and

25 they were burned inside the houses. I am -- I have testified for 103

Page 4310

1 people, and I'm still testifying for 103 people. But the nine persons, as

2 I am explaining to you, were killed or burned at home. I was not among

3 them. I was among the 103 persons that I am testifying for --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ramadani, we have that; we're clear about it.

5 And this doesn't affect your evidence in any way. We have the whole

6 picture before us.

7 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.

8 Q. Yes, sir, it is clear for -- to all of us I think. Thank you.

9 When did you return to your village, Krusha e Vogel?

10 A. On the 15th of June. Maybe I'm not very accurate about the date.

11 I know for sure it was June, but it might have been 18th of June.

12 Q. And how did the village look when you returned?

13 A. It was in a pitiful condition. All the houses were burned. It

14 was a very desperate view to look at. Not a house was -- not a single

15 house was intact. Some were -- only the roofs were burned. Some were

16 burned in other parts, but the entire village was burned, I mean the

17 houses of Albanians, not the houses of the Serbs.

18 Q. That is the point I wanted to clarify with you. So it was only

19 the Albanian houses that were burned. How did the Serb houses look?

20 A. They were quite intact when we returned from Albania.

21 Q. And how did the two households of Romas, these two houses look, in

22 what state were they in?

23 A. They, too, were in good condition because they were together with

24 the Serbs in the village.

25 Q. And after you returned to your village, did you also go back to

Page 4311

1 the Batusha cowshed at some point?

2 A. Yes, yes. I went immediately to see, but cowshed was blown up.

3 It was built with concrete blocks, but all had been scattered all around

4 and there were only two pits left of them. We found some burned shoes and

5 some sleeves, some pieces of clothes, nothing else, because excavators had

6 been -- bulldozers had been working before.

7 MS. MOELLER: Can we call up Exhibit P100, page 3, please?

8 Q. Mr. Ramadani, is that -- can you identify what is on this picture,

9 on this photo?

10 A. Yes. The two holes, two pits nearby this house, but when they

11 blew up the two -- the cowshed, this house, too, was blown up. It was

12 destroyed, I mean. So now you can see only two pits, nothing else.

13 MS. MOELLER: Can we have the same exhibit, page 4, please?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


16 Q. Talking about pits, is that one of the pits that you referred to?

17 A. Yes, this is the pit or the hole that I am talking about, but

18 there is another one. Here was the corridor and the two rooms. Instead

19 of the rooms there are the two holes or pits and you see the concrete

20 blocks thrown all over.

21 Q. I would like to show you one last photograph, and that is Exhibit

22 101, page 1, please.

23 Mr. Ramadani, we talked about one of your co-villagers, Sait

24 Hajdari, who was confined to a wheelchair and him being in the cowshed as

25 well. Could you have a look at this picture which is upcoming. Now --

Page 4312

1 A. I don't see any -- yes, now, yes.

2 Q. Can you have a look at this wheelchair?

3 A. Yes, the wheelchair belonged to him, to Sait Hajdari. But Shez

4 [phoen], his wife, but I had not seen her because they lived far from me,

5 but I know that the wheel belonged to Sait.

6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ramadani, do you know a British journalist called

7 John Sweeney?

8 A. Maybe I know him. There were many journalists.

9 Q. Yes. Did you talk to journalists in -- close to the events, close

10 after the events after you returned to Krusha e Vogel?

11 A. After the event in Krushe, there were many foreign journalists,

12 but as I said I wasn't feeling so well and I didn't take down their names,

13 and so I am not sure.

14 Q. Do you recall any journalists with a film crew coming into your

15 village?

16 A. Yes. Yes. Many journalists came, but I kept away because I was

17 suffering from a trauma at that time and I didn't want to get involved.

18 But what I went through, I told the journalists, but I didn't write down

19 their names. I know that it was Petri and John.

20 Q. Mr. Ramadani, I have only two questions left. How is the village

21 of Krusha e Vogel today?

22 A. We have received a lot of aid from internationals and the house

23 now is in good condition, not as good as it should be, but compared to the

24 state we found it, it's much better.

25 Q. And how is the situation for the children in Krusha e Vogel

Page 4313

1 today?

2 A. The situation for the children is not good because the number of

3 children has been reduced, and we found out now that we sent the children

4 to school. We used to have 28 to 30 kids per class. Now we have only 14,

5 and you can see that their number has diminished.

6 Q. And -- I'm sorry, please continue.

7 A. We have 80 women with husbands. We have 52 women who have orphan

8 children.

9 Q. And my very last question: How is your personal condition today,

10 Mr. Ramadani?

11 A. Not very good, but I'm trying as far as I'm able to walk.

12 Sometimes I feel nervous and I kind of start shaking because of what I

13 went through at the time of war.

14 Q. Thank you very much for your patience, Mr. Ramadani.

15 MS. MOELLER: This completes my questions, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 Mr. Ramadani, which parts of your body were burned?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The right part.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Your body as well as your arm?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. My arm, my hand. You can see

21 the marks on my hand, but the part on the arm, it has healed.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: And your left hand, was it also burned?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No because I fell on my left side of

24 the body, but it was the right side that caught fire, my clothes as well.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 4314

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Mr. Ramadani, I've just a question for you. Now,

3 things are becoming normal in your village and you say that the -- because

4 of the aid you have been able to build-up the house and children are also

5 going to school. But, as according to you, the number of children have

6 reduced. So it doesn't give the hustle bustle of life. But what I would

7 like to ask you is: How are the inter-ethnic relationships now after

8 the -- after this post-era of the incidents you have mentioned? How are

9 you interacting and how is this relationship existing between different

10 ethnic groups and yourself? Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, what ethnicities do you mean

12 now? There are no more Serbs in the village. There are some Romas in the

13 village, but they live further away. We have good relations with them, no

14 problems.

15 JUDGE CHOWHAN: What about villages close to you, not really your

16 own village if your population is overwhelming. What about other villages

17 next door where you may be having Serbs, what type of relationship do you

18 have with them, please?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No relations at all because they are

20 far away. Some of them are in Rahovec and it's far away, so I have no

21 connection with them.

22 JUDGE CHOWHAN: But you must be meeting them off and on going here

23 and there at marketplaces far away collecting bric-a-brac or other things.

24 How is the behaviour how and how you feel yourself amidst them now after

25 you have rehabilitated?

Page 4315

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't go to the market. I work as

2 a farmer. I'd like to tell you: If your son gets killed, what can you

3 think about that person? I don't think you would think well of such a

4 person. If your sons get burned in front of your -- of you, just right

5 before your eyes, I don't think you would think well of such a person who

6 does that.

7 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, the order is: General Lukic,

11 General Pavkovic, Mr. Milutinovic, Mr. Sainovic, General Lazarevic, and

12 General Ojdanic.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Ramadani. My name is Branko

18 Lukic, and I would kindly ask you to assist us in clarifying certain

19 points?

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] First of all, I'd like the assistance

21 of the registrar to be able to see P99 on the screen, page 1.

22 Q. Mr. Ramadan, on this photograph - and with the assistance of the

23 usher - could you please mark the house of Bosko Stankovic from which fire

24 was opened at Hyseni.

25 A. I can show you, no problem. This is Bosko's house. This is

Page 4316

1 Ceka's house, and this is Milos's house. So Boski's, Ceka's, and Milos's,

2 and this is Hysen Ramadani's house.

3 Q. Thank you?

4 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... record,

5 Mr. Lukic. Which one is the one that you're after, Bosko's house.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Just next to Bosko's house, could you please put the number 1.

8 A. Number 1, here, is Ceka's house.

9 Q. Then please put 2 next to Bosko Stankovic's house.

10 A. Oh, yes, Boski's; this one.

11 JUDGE CHOWHAN: [Microphone not activated].

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 JUDGE CHOWHAN: The figuration is not very correct, visible.

14 Could the usher also help him, please.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's clear, so 1 is 1, 2 is

16 2 --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... middle one of

18 the three is number 1 and the one on the left is number 2.

19 Just one other thing, just to be absolutely clear, would you also

20 mark with a 3 the house of Hyseni Ramadani.

21 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, should we admit this as

Page 4317

1 an exhibit?

2 JUDGE BONOMY: [Microphone not activated].

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC67, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Ramadani, today we heard that the reason of people leaving

8 your village was because policemen in black uniforms surrounded your

9 village. How many policemen were there? Can you tell us that?

10 A. I couldn't count how many policemen there were because it wasn't

11 to see from here to there, so we couldn't see all of them. They were in

12 groups, several groups.

13 Q. Was there a circle that was created around the village?

14 A. Yes. I told you earlier that the village was surrounded by the

15 army. The army was in the mountains and around the village and on the

16 road, while the police were in the streets of the village, inside, while

17 the population went to seek shelter in the stream.

18 Q. That's why I was asking you this question. Provided the village

19 was encircled, how did you manage to leave the village and go to the

20 forest?

21 A. Well, they did not do anything to the people who were leaving and

22 going towards the forest. This is the route we took to this field here

23 and then to the forest, but they did not allow people to go in the other

24 direction. But they allowed people to go towards the mountain.

25 Q. Thank you. And all this took place around 4.00 or 5.00 a.m.; is

Page 4318

1 that so?

2 A. Yes. I'm not sure, it was about 5.00, yes, around that time. At

3 4.00 we saw that we were surrounded and the people began to leave their

4 homes at about 5.00 in the morning.

5 Q. Can we conclude then that among the policemen there were no

6 policemen wearing blue camouflage uniforms?

7 A. It was not a problem for them because they could change their

8 clothes whenever they wanted. Blue, black, or camouflage, they had all

9 these uniforms. I'm talking about the village here, and I'm saying that

10 whatever they thought appropriate they did. And they put on the uniforms

11 that they wanted. So when they began to set the houses on fire, the first

12 houses on fire, and when we heard the shooting, we left our houses and

13 went to the stream. And we did not look back because in fact from the

14 stream you cannot see what's going on up there.

15 Q. Very well. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani. I just wanted to ask you

16 whether you want to change your testimony now, since you said during your

17 cross-examination that there were -- or rather, I wanted to ask whether --

18 do you not want to change your testimony to the effect that there were

19 some other uniforms apart from the black ones you testified about?

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, he gave evidence earlier that there were

21 camouflage, multi-coloured uniforms.

22 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, but black, black uniforms.

23 JUDGE CHOWHAN: [Microphone not activated].

24 MS. MOELLER: Indeed he said black and camouflage uniforms,

25 Your Honours.

Page 4319


2 JUDGE CHOWHAN: [Microphone not activated].

3 JUDGE BONOMY: All I'm saying is you have to put the question on

4 an appropriate basis.

5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ramadani, at page 7, line 15 of today's

7 transcript, you said: The police entered the village and started setting

8 fire to the houses. They wore black uniforms and camouflage uniforms.

9 Were these two different types of uniform?

10 A. I did not say "camouflage uniforms." As I explained earlier, I

11 did not sit there and watch what kinds of uniforms they were wearing or

12 changing into. We went to the stream. The uniforms, they know about the

13 uniforms. And I think that the uniform is not important. The damage that

14 was caused is important and who caused that damage? The Serbs.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ramadani, please don't try to decide yourself

16 what's important; it is for the Court to decide what's important. And

17 while it may be clear beyond any doubt that a large number of people were

18 killed here, what we are concerned about is who is responsible for that.

19 And to help us to try to identify who is responsible, then we need

20 information about what they looked like, if that information is available.

21 And that is why you're being asked these questions. So be in no doubt

22 that these are important questions.

23 Mr. Lukic.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Why am I asking you all this? And why did His Honourable Judge

Page 4320

1 Bonomy issue these instructions? This is so that you can tell us that you

2 don't know something or that you may not be certain of something, provided

3 that is so. It is a legitimate answer, by all means.

4 A. I'm sure about the police, that they had black uniforms; and the

5 army that was around on the main road and on the mountains, that they had

6 the tanks and the anti-aircraft artillery weapons. I'm sure about those.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani. As we have heard already, there were

8 some Serbs in your village. Were any of them fully employed with the

9 police, if you know?

10 A. Yes, there were.

11 Q. Do you know who of your co-villagers was fully employed by the

12 police?

13 A. Petkovic Cedomir was there, also Nikolic Rasko, then Nikolic

14 Momcilo, Cvetkovic Dragi. These ones were the local ones. Nikolic Ranko,

15 Djordjevic, Djordje Cvetkovic, Sava Nikolic, Tasic Cveta, et cetera.

16 Q. Were there any reserve policemen in your village, Serb reserve

17 policemen?

18 A. I was employed, and from 1992 I left the job, and there were new

19 people there. There were reservists and regular police, but the ones that

20 I mentioned were regular police. The reservists, sometimes they had their

21 uniforms on, sometimes they didn't.

22 Q. Do you know whether there were any members of local security

23 forces in your village?

24 A. What security do you mean, security of the village or the

25 ethnicity?

Page 4321

1 Q. Local security, local guards, people from your village who were in

2 charge of security.

3 A. I said that -- was this about the Serbs or the Albanians?

4 Q. Either, Mr. Ramadani.

5 A. Nikolic Dimitrije had a cafe, and they drew up their plans there.

6 The Serbs always used to gather there and had meetings there, drew their

7 plans, but people from other villages came as well, not only from Celina.

8 But there were no guards --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ramadani, you said that you were employed and

10 from 1992 you left the job. What was that job?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked in Prizren at a factory.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: And at that stage did you leave the village or did

13 you stay in Celina -- sorry, in Mala e Vogel?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I lived in Krusha e Vogel and I

15 commuted.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Ramadani, in 1998 and 1999, were there any Albanians employed

19 with the police?

20 A. No, there weren't. There maybe were Albanians elsewhere employed,

21 but in my village, no.

22 Q. Were there any reservists who wore green uniforms?

23 A. There were. I did see some on the street. I did not have any

24 problems with them. I just saw them on the street.

25 Q. What formations or units did they belong to?

Page 4322

1 A. Could you please repeat the question?

2 Q. Nebojsa Nikolic, was that one of your co-villagers? And you said

3 for him that he used to wear a green uniform.

4 A. Yes, he was a --

5 Q. And it was a green camouflage uniform you said?

6 A. I don't think I said "Bosko," that Bosko had a green uniform.

7 Q. No, I said "Nebojsa Nikolic," and that he wore a green camouflage

8 uniform.

9 A. Well, they had all kinds of uniforms. You could not tell whether

10 it was police or paramilitary or what kind of clothes they wore. They

11 always would change their clothes. They also had reservist uniforms, army

12 reservist uniforms. Because they had their power in their hands, so they

13 did whatever they wanted.

14 Q. Can we agree on one thing, that you don't know what structures or

15 formations Nebojsa Nikolic was part of?

16 A. Nebojsa Nikolic sometimes used to wear paramilitary clothes and

17 sometimes police clothes, and I couldn't know what he was, where he

18 belonged, because I did not have any contact with him.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, can you tell me where he mentioned

20 Nebojsa Nikolic?

21 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, that is in his statement from --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I don't have the statement. Where in the

23 evidence has he said anything about that person until you raised him?

24 MR. LUKIC: I didn't mention his statement, but we are talking

25 about the uniforms and his knowledge regarding the uniforms.

Page 4323

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I understand that. But the question you've

2 just asked is: Can we agree on one thing, that you don't know what

3 structure or formations he was part of? Now, where has he suggested he

4 did? You seem to be fighting a statement that's not part of the case at

5 the moment.

6 MR. LUKIC: You are right, Your Honour. I'll move on. Thank

7 you.


9 MR. LUKIC: Although we --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: And please correct me if I'm wrong --

11 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: It doesn't appear to be part of the case so far.

13 Am I missing it?

14 MR. LUKIC: You are not, but I tried to put it in a wider

15 context.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You spoke today about the incident when the women were ordered to

19 go to the lake close to the Albanian border. Who did the policeman

20 address directly when he said that the women were to go towards the lake?

21 A. I didn't mention Vermica. I said the police told the women:

22 Stop, and then they divided men from women. Those policemen who we didn't

23 know told us the women: Either go drown yourself in the Drini bar or go

24 to Albania and they took the direction of Drini. I didn't mention Vermica

25 anywhere.

Page 4324

1 Q. Thank you. This will probably be my mistake. What language did

2 this person use?

3 A. He used the Serbian language.

4 Q. And he also wore a black uniform. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. Yes, the black police uniform.

8 Q. The policeman who ordered you to kneel and to put your hands at

9 the back of your head, did you know him?

10 A. No. He was not known to us. I think I mentioned that, that those

11 policemen were not known to us, those who ordered us to keep our hands

12 behind our backs and kneel down.

13 Q. I suppose he also wore a black uniform?

14 A. Yeah, I think so.

15 Q. Thank you. When you were in the house -- actually in the barn,

16 how were you placed inside? Did they order you to face the wall? How did

17 they tell you to stand when you were in the cowshed?

18 A. They didn't tell us to face the wall, but just move in as we were.

19 Some were standing, some were sitting down on the hay. And then we

20 started to talk a little among ourselves because some elderly men thought

21 that maybe they would maltreat us for a while and then force us to leave

22 to Albania. It never entered our minds that this was going to happen to

23 us.

24 MR. LUKIC: Give me one second, Your Honour.

25 [Defence counsel confer]

Page 4325

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Q. I would now move on to something else. I would kindly ask you to

3 focus on the trial and your testimony in the late Milosevic case.

4 Mr. Milosevic asked you about the negotiations between the Serbs and the

5 Albanians and their agreement to protect each other from the other side's

6 armed forces.

7 [In English] "-- I wasn't present. Ismail Arifi made the

8 agreement with the Serbs but they didn't keep the agreement. Those that

9 made it did not keep it. The criminals of Krusha e Vogel who shot,

10 burned -- burned 112 people."

11 [Interpretation] This was your response to Mr. Milosevic's

12 question. Did you mean to say that the locals from Krusevo were

13 responsible for the killing of these 112 people, people from Krusha e

14 Vogel?

15 A. Yes, they were the organisers or they were participants in what

16 was staged, those who were the ones who led what happened because the

17 people who came from other places didn't know -- the police who came from

18 other places didn't know which houses belonged to Albanians and which not,

19 because it was local Serbs that led them. And they -- I'm not very

20 well-informed of this agreement, but even an agreement was reached; the

21 Serbs didn't abide by it.

22 Q. Thank you. After that Milosevic asked you whether the Serbs by

23 the name of Petkovic, Vuci Nikolic, Zivcha [phoen], who you've mentioned

24 at the time in your statement, whether they were local guards or local

25 police. Your answer to that was as follows: [In English] "I don't know

Page 4326

1 how they were organised. Sometimes they were there, sometimes they were

2 not. We didn't know who was a policeman and who was not. They all had

3 uniforms."

4 MS. MOELLER: Could I have a page reference from my learned

5 colleague for that, please?

6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, of course, it's page 6709, line 10 and further

7 on. And we'll offer this transcript at the end as an exhibit,

8 Your Honour.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Is it true, Mr. Ramadani, as you have confirmed

10 it to us partly today, that you didn't know how the local Serbs wearing

11 uniforms were organised.

12 A. I was not one of them, but you mentioned Zivchi and Petkovic Vuci.

13 I didn't say they were in uniforms, but I said they were there when the

14 agreement was made with Ismail Arifi. Vuci and Zivchi and Miloshi

15 [phoen], they were the ones who reached the agreement to protect the

16 Albanians against Serbian police or army, and the other side, to protect

17 the Serbs against the KLA. I heard of it. I wasn't present.

18 Q. Let us go back and let me ask you where -- this. You didn't know

19 who the uniformed Serbs carrying arms belonged to, what formations they

20 belonged to?

21 A. I don't know that. I told you, they kept changing their uniforms

22 all the time, every day.

23 Q. Thank you. On page 6712, line 19 and onwards Milosevic asked you

24 this: "How many policemen were there in the courtyard next to the

25 cowsheds?"

Page 4327

1 A. I couldn't count them. I saw five or six policemen close by who

2 were standing on guard, but there were other police further away. I was

3 inside. I couldn't see them.

4 Q. However, in the Milosevic trial you mentioned the policemen from

5 the village who were there, the Serb policemen. Were there local

6 policemen, the village policemen, in the vicinity near that place?

7 A. I didn't say that there were Serb policemen from the village in

8 fact there; I said that there were policemen. I didn't specify that they

9 were local police. I just said that the police guarded us until other

10 policemen came.

11 Q. Let me read you back your answer in English.

12 [In English] "Police of the village, they were Serbs."

13 [Interpretation] This is what you said. Do you remember that you

14 said this?

15 A. But there were local Serb policemen. I say this now and I say

16 this then, but in the place where they were guarding us, I didn't see the

17 local policemen. I remember the local policemen accompanied us when we

18 were taken to the cowshed, but I didn't see them in the cowshed. They

19 were unknown policemen. Maybe the local ones were further away.

20 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Ms. Moeller.

22 MS. MOELLER: I think this quote was taken out of the context.

23 There is a sentence before this sentence which should also be put to the

24 witness.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what is the preceding sentence?

Page 4328

1 MS. MOELLER: The preceding sentence says: "There were about ten

2 police who guarded us outside and then there came the villagers there,

3 police of the village, they were Serbs." So it refers to both villagers

4 and police.

5 MR. LUKIC: I understand this as: This police refers actually to

6 these police who were outside. And then but --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we -- the position's been fully explained

8 now, and we will make what we can of it in due course.

9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ramadani, on page 6713, starting with line 24

11 onwards, you spoke about those who torched the bodies of the men who had

12 been executed. And you say this: [In English] "I was among the dead

13 people and then I went out. I was on the right part where the Serbs of

14 the Krusha e Vogel were there. They were setting fire to the people."

15 [Interpretation] Do you remember and is this correct?

16 A. I didn't say that the Serbs from Krusha e Vogel torched them.

17 When they fired, they entered. Then one who had a pistol shot at anyone

18 who raised the head. I only heard the shots and I saw fire spreading all

19 over us, but I don't know whether it was the local Serbs or the others who

20 did that. The main thing is that this, what I'm saying, happened; that is

21 the execution of the people.

22 Q. In other words, what was recorded at the Milosevic trial is not

23 correct?

24 A. It is correct that they burned them, but inside it was impossible

25 for me to see whether the policemen were from the village or were from

Page 4329

1 other places. It was flames all over. Only when I left the place, I saw

2 them in the street, standing in the street. But I didn't have time to

3 look carefully at each and every one of them.

4 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours --

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 MS. MOELLER: I would like to object one more time. It was again

7 taken out of context.

8 MR. LUKIC: Okay.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Read the context to us, please.

10 MS. MOELLER: The context is: "I was inside. I was among the

11 dead people, and then I went out. I was on the right part where the Serbs

12 of Krusha e Vogel were. Then I observed that there were no people on the

13 left part and it was possible for me to leave."

14 The witness has testified today that he saw different people when

15 he came out of the stable.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: But what about the part that says: "They were

17 setting fire to the people"?

18 MS. MOELLER: Yes, that's the part that my learned colleague

19 referred to. Sorry, I left that out.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: We will take account of the whole context in due

21 course.

22 MR. LUKIC: We accept this and we think that this further explains

23 exactly what we want to point out.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ramadani, on page 6719 -- I apologise. Yes,

25 I was correct, 6719, line 19, Milosevic asked you this: [In English] "All

Page 4330

1 right. If there are no witnesses concerning these events, does that mean

2 that you are the sole witness of these events?"

3 And your response was: "I am a witness about the fact that they

4 were executed and burnt. The Serbs of Krusha e Vogel did these things

5 with the help of the people from the neighbouring villages."

6 [Interpretation] Is this correct, what you said at the Milosevic

7 trial?

8 A. Can you repeat the question because I am not very sure I

9 understood it right?

10 Q. [In English] Yes, sir, I can. Mr. Milosevic asked you whether you

11 were a witness and the only witness to this crime. And your response

12 was --

13 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, this is not correct. I object to that.

14 The question referred to the removal of the mortal remains; not of the

15 crime of the shooting in the barn but the aftermath. I would insist that

16 the context is put to the witness.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that correct, Mr. Lukic?

18 MR. LUKIC: Let me check. Give me one second, Your Honour.

19 MS. MOELLER: It is at line 13 of page 6719.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not the only witness --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment, Mr. Ramadani, we're dealing with a

22 matter before you answer.

23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, obviously I skipped this part.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's move to a different question.

Page 4331

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

2 Q. When you spoke about the removal of the bodies, you said that the

3 Serbs from Krusha e Vogel had done that with the help of their neighbours,

4 from the neighbouring villages. Is that correct?

5 A. There were policemen we didn't know. We didn't know where they

6 were from neighbouring village or from another place, but I do know that

7 the local Serbs guided these policemen to commit the crime they did. And

8 I think I mentioned this. And as to the survivors, there are six and we

9 are all alive. And each and every one of us can testify; you can call

10 them here.

11 Q. Mr. Ramadani, let me ask you this: Based on what you have just

12 told us, could you draw a conclusion that Serb villagers wanted to

13 ethnically cleanse the village?

14 A. The Serbs have, in general, wanted to cleanse not only Krusha e

15 Vogel, but other places, Krusha e Madhe, Celina, and others. Since they

16 drove all the population out of Albania -- out of Kosova and sent it to

17 Albania, it was an ethnic cleansing.

18 Q. However, you did not attend any other conflicts, you were not

19 involved in any of them; you only know what happened in your own village?

20 A. Yes, I'm testifying only about my village, but --

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. LUKIC: Give me one moment, Your Honour, just to consult.

23 [Defence counsel confer]

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani. I have no further questions for you.

Page 4332

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, only if we can put this transcript into

3 evidence, it's 6D87.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I think it's necessary that we have the parts

5 in context that have been referred to. Thank you.

6 Mr. Ackerman, do you have questions -- or Ms. Zed, do you have

7 questioned?

8 MS. ZED: Yes, I do, Your Honour, I'll be very brief.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

10 MS. ZED: Thank you.

11 Cross-examination by Ms. Zed:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ramadani. My name is Nadia Zed and I just

13 have a few very brief questions for you. First off, sir, I'm just

14 looking at the statement you gave on October 5th, 2001, and it says here

15 that: "In the village there was no regular VJ." That's true, isn't it?

16 A. No, I didn't say that. There was -- the army was there.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MS. ZED: If we could just look at 4D27 --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, the problem, though, Ms. Zed, is that the

20 evidence that the witness has given about the 25th of March is not

21 consistent, and that's what he's thinking about, I'm sure, when he answers

22 your question. Now, are you saying that the statement, which I haven't

23 seen, is actually talking about the 25th of March when that was said?

24 MS. ZED: The statement actually doesn't give a specific date as

25 to when that observation is made, and I can just read it. It says: "I

Page 4333

1 have been asked if the MUP -- if there were MUP or VJ." And then the part

2 that I quote: "The regular VJ." It goes along a little bit and --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, why don't you formulate the question you want

4 to ask, and if you think the answer is inconsistent with the statement,

5 then let's get into the statement, as required.

6 MS. ZED: Okay.

7 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that on -- on March 25th, 1999, there

8 were a number of different people wearing different uniforms. However,

9 specifically within your -- within your village, there was no regular VJ?

10 A. The tanks and the Pragas were not driven by me. It was not me in

11 them; it was the army.

12 Q. Okay. Sir, just -- maybe I wasn't clear. I'm not talking about

13 outside your village on -- on the asphalt road; I'm talking about

14 specifically within your village. Does that clarify matters?

15 MS. MOELLER: Could counsel, before the witness answers, clarify

16 what she means by "regular VJ" to the witness?

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, she didn't use the word "regular," and

18 therefore I think --

19 MS. MOELLER: I think she did.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, yes, sorry.

21 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour --


23 MS. ZED:

24 Q. The regular army, regular forces, the VJ forces.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, well, on you go, please ask the question

Page 4334

1 then.

2 MS. ZED: Sorry, I can just repeat the question.

3 Q. Sir, I'm just -- just to clarify the question that I've asked.

4 What I'm wondering is if the regular army, the VJ, actually were in your

5 village or outside your village.

6 A. Inside the village, on the streets, I did not see any army. The

7 main road from Prizren-Gjakova, the army was there. And there was army

8 around the village and in the mountains. There were tanks and Pragas.

9 Inside the village there were only policemen -- at least I did not see

10 soldiers inside the village. I think it's clear.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. ZED: And if we could just take a look at Exhibit P99, please.

13 Thank you.

14 Q. Sir, was this how your village looked like in the summer of 1999?

15 A. I apologise. This must have been taken later because on the 26th

16 of March there was no vegetation, so these trees here had no leaves. So

17 that's why I think the picture has been taken later.

18 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, excuse me. We investigated in the

19 meantime when this picture was taken because Defence counsel requested us

20 earlier to do so, and we could actually provide the date.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what is the date?

22 MS. MOELLER: The date is 8 August 2001.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you content with that, Ms. Zed?

24 MS. ZED: I am, thank you.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

Page 4335

1 MS. ZED:

2 Q. Just a final question, Mr. Ramadani. You mentioned a couple of

3 times throughout the day that the people that you saw in your village were

4 at -- on March 25th and thereabouts were changing their uniforms all the

5 time, every day. And, sir, what I'm wondering is: Were these people

6 local Serbs who were putting on different uniforms?

7 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, I'm sorry to object again, but I recall

8 the witness testifying that they could change their uniforms any time they

9 wanted. I don't recall him testifying that they -- that he actually saw

10 them doing so.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm happy that the question is in order.

12 You can continue.

13 MS. ZED: Thank you.

14 Q. Sir, can you answer that question, please?

15 A. I apologise, but it's not clear to me. Could you repeat it?

16 Q. Certainly, certainly. You've mentioned a couple of times today

17 that the people that you saw in your village on and around the -- March

18 25th, 1999, were changing their uniforms all the time, every day. And,

19 sir, what I'm wondering is whether these people were local Serbs who were

20 putting on different uniforms?

21 A. Yes, locals, locals.

22 Q. Thank you very much. Those are all my questions.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

24 Mr. O'Sullivan, do you have questions?

25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No, we don't.

Page 4336

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic?

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac?

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will probably need

5 some ten minutes or so, and I understand that my colleague, Visnjic, also

6 has questions, so I don't know whether we are going to continue today.

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to have half

8 an hour, and we are running rather late. We have a meeting at 5.30, so I

9 would really very much appreciate it if we could adjourn and if I could

10 continue tomorrow.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, indeed.

12 Mr. Ramadani, we have to bring the proceedings for today to an end

13 now, which means you will have to come back and continue your evidence

14 tomorrow, and that will be at 9.00 tomorrow. Between now and then, it is

15 absolutely vital that you do not discuss any part of your evidence with

16 any person at all, and that means either the evidence you've given or the

17 evidence that you may yet give in the court. You can talk about anything

18 else you wish, with anyone you wish, but please do not discuss the

19 evidence. Now, if you sit there for a moment until we leave the court,

20 then -- in fact, no, it would be better if you go with the usher now and

21 he'll show you where to go and we'll see you again tomorrow at 9.00.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall resume at 9.00 tomorrow.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.37 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Friday, the 29th day of

Page 4337

1 September, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.